April 4, 2024 • 52 mins
Ever wondered how a kebab could lead to an epiphany about ancient philosophy? Join Bryan, Nick, and me as we embark on a gastronomic adventure that pairs delectably with the enduring wisdom of Stoicism. You're in for a savory treat of tales and musings that connect lukewarm chicken skewers and the irresistible charm of cheese curds to the stoic virtues that can anchor us in the tumult of today's world.
Peeling back the layers of our daily grind, we draw parallels between the pursuit of a meaningful life and the art of savoring a meal crafted from humble leftovers. From the quenching sips of tropical beverages to candid anecdotes spanning self-help literature to the silver screen, our exchange is peppered with humor and insights. We touch on the Stoic heavyweights—Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius—and the pillars of courage, resistance, and justice that they championed. Whether you’re a seasoned philosopher or simply curious about the stoic way, there's a seat at our table for you.
As we round off the conversation, we tackle the delicate tension between personal desires and the broader public good. With a nod to modern distractions like social media and video games, we explore the virtues of temperance and wisdom, offering a perspective that's as nourishing for the soul as the eclectic flavors discussed throughout the show. So, whether you're dishing out a late-night snack or contemplating life's bigger questions, we invite you to feast on this episode that's guaranteed to satisfy both your hunger and your intellect.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Help Yourself.
Food and Philosophy with Brianand Nick.
I'm Nick and I'm Brian, I hearstoicism is all the rage these
days.
Sounds like they're doing itwrong what you eating, brian.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Probably, I don't know.
Also, I think they're also deadtoo.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Oh no, there's all kinds of modern stoics out there
.
I know, I think they're, Ithink they're, I think they're
also dead too.
So, uh no, there's all kinds ofmodern stoics, I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Uh, what am I eating?
Uh, leftovers.
Today, on this uh redacted dayof the week, it is a I had a
cold.
Well, actually it wasn't cold,it was sort of lukewarm.
Uh, mainly because I wasn'tpatient enough to heat it up
completely in the microwave, Ijust sort of put it in for like
(00:52):
a couple minutes, but it was aleftover.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
You ate my belly up.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Exactly, I was hungry .
It was leftover kebab with thechicken kebab, and it had purple
onions, onions, like chunks ofpurple onions, some, uh, red
peppers, some chunks of chicken,and then it had like a I
actually don't know the saucebecause I didn't make them
myself um, but it was like a,like, almost like a.
(01:19):
It had a little bit of likesweetness to it, but it wasn't
like a barbecue sauce oranything like that.
It was more like a almostalmost like salad dressing kind
of you know how like you do,like the Italian dressing or
something like that.
And uh, and then uh yeah, thatwas really yeah, something like
that.
Yeah, it was actually morebalsamic, yeah, it had like a
vinegar kind of feel to it, butit had a slight sweet pain to it
(01:42):
as well.
So I don't know, I don't knowit was good, I'm telling you.
I'll just tell you that umspoken like a true footy, right
exactly, and uh, and the fact isthat, um, you know, maybe it
was good because I was hungry,maybe it was good because it's
actually good, I don't know.
So we'll never know that.
The answer to that question Ihad that.
(02:04):
And then there was alsoprobably a quarter of a chicken
breast boneless, skinlesschicken breast that was also
grilled, but that was just saltand pepper on it.
And then there's a person in myoffice that lives in Minnesota
Wait, wisconsin, sorry, notMinnesota.
When?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
does that work?
You said they're in your office, but they live, so they
visiting.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so they, they work remote all the
time from, and I take that back.
It's not Minnesota, it'sWisconsin and uh wait, I take
that back it might be minnesota.
I always get them confused andagain, the people that are out
there if there's anyone wholistens for me those states is
probably very angry at me rightnow because they're totally
(02:53):
different places, but um, to menorthern states all the same
into my head the you know, theones that get like feet and feet
of snow, um in the winter andyou're, you know, basically a
winter wonderland up there, um,no, anyway.
So when she comes down to theoffice she brings cheese curds
from like that are like localcheese curds, like so they're
(03:16):
like real true, like dairy farmsup there, yeah and they're like
literally wisconsin I wouldthink so, but uh, anyway, it's
just they're in a bag, like aplain plastic bag, with like a
plain label on it that just sayswhat kind of cheese curds are,
so like they're differentflavors.
So there's.
There were regular plain, youknow, cheddar cheese curds,
(03:36):
there were Cajun seasoningcheese curds, there was garlic
and dill cheese curds and thenthere was also a ranch like
ranch cheese curds.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Wow, so there are all these different flavors.
So is it all just chunks ofcheese dipped in these sauces?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
No, it's like so, it's like the powder.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
So like, think of like no, they're not so like.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Think of, like the herbs that would be in like a
ranch dressing, and then samething like garlic and dill.
It might be like I don't knowhow, what they use for it, Maybe
garlic, you know garlic powderor garlic salt plus some dill in
there or whatever, but theyjust basically flavor them up.
And the Cajun season ones areall red, red ish, you know.
They sort of roll them in somekind of Cajun seasoning and uh,
(04:24):
and you know you can eat themcold.
But usually what I do is I'lltake a couple of them and put
them in a bowl and like heatthem for just a just enough to
like warm them up and softenthem so you can still pick them
up as like an actual thing andum, so I had that along with my
lunch, which was really good.
(04:44):
Every time that she bringsthose it's exciting to me.
Also, I know when she's in theoffice because there's all of a
sudden cheese curds thatmagically appear in the
refrigerator.
So she's like the cheese curdfairy.
So I had a couple of those.
And then Brian's BeverageCorner.
(05:06):
I do have a couple of those.
And then Brian's beveragecorner Um, I do have a thing of
water here.
I do have a little bit of atheme going on here.
So I've got, uh, a coconutpineapple bubbly which is, you
know, like sparkling watercoconut pineapple or boobly
whatever.
Yeah, boobly Sorry water.
(05:27):
Coconut pineapple or booblywhatever, uh yeah, boobly Sorry.
And then.
But then I also have a hundredpercent pure coconut water that
is pineapple, so it's pineapplecoconut coconut water, so I'm
having a very tropical uhafternoon, and uh, and so those
things are keeping my my quench,my quench, thirst, thirsted.
(05:48):
No, my thirst quenched today,kind of.
But, uh, I didn't intend to havethat theme.
I just grabbed the thing out oftheir fridge and then I'm like,
oh, I'm going to have this, I'mgoing to have this.
And I'm like, oh, I didn't, Idid that just by accident, so it
sort of worked out.
Sounds like you had a craving.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Uh, probably either that, or there was limited other
choices it's like, oh, I canhave this toilet water, or I can
have pineapple coconut waterright, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Well, what about you?
What?
What are you eating?
I think I can smell it fromhere.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
I got a personal pan Jets pizza.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Greatly deviating from my standard.
I wanted to get somethingdifferent.
I always have been a fan ofwhite pizzas, pizzas, and I saw
that chet's has a greek pizza.
I don't know if it's limitedtime or what uh-huh but I
pounced on that.
They got the standard, liketurbo crust and sesame seed
(07:00):
flavorizing, but then, yeah, thethe greek toppings are.
Of course, you know they'repremium mozzarella, but they
also throw in feta cheese, dicedtomatoes, kalamata olives, yeah
, mild peppers and red onionsthat sounds really good for
dipping, they, they give a niceuh, it looks like about six
(07:23):
ounces, or oh, that's not sixounces, it's got to be like four
.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
That's like yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Six ounces is, yeah, on its way to being a full cup,
you know that's not right.
Yeah, this is definitely fourounces, so half a cup of Greek
dressing.
Yeah.
And so it's funny you mentionedyour, you know, kebab dressing
being kind of Italian-ish andsweet.
(07:49):
This is fairly sweet, much moretangy.
I would describe it as kind oflike a creamy Italian dressing
with a bit more brine in theflavor, and if I had to guess,
I'd say poppy seeds.
Okay.
(08:09):
Kind of that unique umami sortof flavor that goes with poppy
seed stuff.
Yeah, and there are littleblack flecks in there, so that
gives me additional wonderings.
But yeah, so I'm really.
I also added some light ranchto it because it doesn't come
with sauce, so I wanted thepizza part to have its own sauce
(08:33):
without pouring the yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
The big Wait so you added.
You added that to the pizza orto the.
You added that to the othersauce To the pizza.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, so I'm using the Greek dip or
the Greek dressing on the sideas dipping sauce for the crust.
Oh okay, yeah, so, so I'm usingthe greek dip or the greek on
dressing on the side as yeahdipping sauce for the crust, you
know, but it's really tangy.
So I'm grateful that I havesome blue raspberry prime nice
hydration drink.
Uh, these things are superflavorful, like like the first
(09:03):
time I had it.
It was, it felt like I drankall the flavor of you know, like
a blue Kool-Aid in one sip, youknow the entire blue Kool-Aid
in one sip it's 10% coconutwater, which is nice.
Right.
Although it is sweetened withsucralose, it's like the middle
ingredient in the ingredientslist.
(09:23):
Sweetened with sucralose, it'slike the middle ingredient in
the ingredients list, so it'slike total sugars.
One gram includes zero grams ofadded sugar, but technically,
of course, it's because they'reusing sucralose and not real
sugar and yeah I still want thatdoes to my body other than I
have found.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I sometimes have to go to the bathroom yeah little
the coconut water is good,though, because it barrels added
hydration.
I think it's better for youthan I think it hydrates
slightly better than plain water.
So like having a little bit inthere probably just gives it a
little more enhanced hydrationquality, you know and also
(10:00):
probably I think so, and it alsogives it like a little bit of
probably a little bit of aflavor difference or profile.
And then I've found that coconutwater is a little bit like
thicker than actual water, likejust consistency wise.
So it probably gives it like adifferent feel just to have that
(10:20):
10% in there.
You know, you're just helpingyou, helping logan paul train
for his uh fight, his big fight,with mike tyson coming up, you
know yeah, I actually reduced myconsumption of these drinks
after you found that out after Ifound out it was the Logan Paul
(10:42):
of YouTube fame.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, I don't know, because I wasn't.
I was never a fan of his stuff.
And then I heard very distantlyabout some kind of scandal or
drama, like yeah, I'm just yeah.
I don't really need to havemuch to do with that guy.
I never watch his stuff.
Now I probably won't, yeah.
And now I'm drinking his product.
(11:04):
I probably don't need to drinkthis either.
Maybe there's a betterhydration drink.
I don't know.
It's not like I activelyboycott him, but I also don't.
I don't, yeah, I just.
There are plenty of othercontent creators that interest
me to pursue.
I can only watch so much so,like he never showed up on my,
(11:29):
my algorithms recommendations,you know, uh.
And then of course, I also havewater, water, just in case.
I want something to tame thisstrong flavor yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
That's always good to have the uh the extra
moderation, you know, yeah, sometemperance some temperance.
Gotta have the courage, you know, to have the water near you and
uh well maybe, on that note, weshould let the audience in on
our our little, uh slight insidejoke.
(12:03):
I guess it's not going to beinside for much longer.
What's our topic today?
Our topic today, and probablythe next episode as well, is
going to be I will call it the,I won't call it the granddaddy,
but I will call it one of themainstays, the uncle of
(12:26):
philosophy, or it's one of the,at least one of the big boys,
heavy hitters, let's call it aheavy hitter in the philosophy
arena.
And it's stoicism, and I'vealways been sort of fascinated
with stoicism.
I had a friend at the gym whowas really fascinated with it
and had, like he had like likeLatin words tattooed on the on
(12:50):
his inner forearms that werelike basically inner thigh, yeah
, on his inner thighs yeah.
No.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
He had your arm out, I could tell you yeah, his inner
forearm, his inner.
Oh sorry.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, forearm his inner yeah and uh, but it was.
You know, it's one of thosethings where, um, if you really
get into it, even though thiswas a philosophy that was
developed and began in essencebefore christ you know, three,
four hundred years before christ, it was um, you know, it's
something that's still veryrelevant.
(13:24):
I think, like when I read it tome it resonates in.
You know, I guess it's one ofthose things that I've said it
before on this podcast but to me, self-help and philosophy and
other things, if they don't makesense based on a changing world
, like the world changes, andthen all of a sudden you're like
this doesn't really make senseanymore, then I feel like it's
(13:46):
sort of a weaker type ofphilosophy.
This is something that youcould read the quotes now, you
can read about it and you couldlive your life now, as you said,
there are modern day Stoicsthat are like, yeah, here's how
I live my life right now andit's based on this, you know,
over 2000 year old philosophy.
So so I guess start at thebeginning is what you know in
(14:15):
essence.
When did it begin?
I already said that it sayssomewhere around 300 BC is when
it began and in essence, therewere a number of philosophers
(14:36):
that sort of you know grabbedonto it and continued to
continue to develop it and moveforward with it.
Some of the major philosophers,though, that we know, or that
are the most well-known, areSeneca, epictetus as well as
Marcus Aurelius.
Seneca Epictetus as well asMarcus Aurelius.
No-transcript gladiator.
I'm pretty sure that was likethere was some storyline in
(14:56):
there.
I watched it, rewatched thatrecently.
I'm pretty sure I was like waita minute, that's, that's marcus
, really like it's, he's thelead, the ruler or whatever.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
So, yeah, he was the one commanding the army yeah the
lead.
I forget the character's nameright, yeah commanded by you
know, until the war yeah yeah, Ithink he died in that war I'm
pretty sure.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yes, spoiler alert to this like 30 year old movie,
but um, I guess you can alwayshave a spoiler alert.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
You know like well that the marcus reallyvis dying
in that movie happens easily inthe first 30 minutes, if not the
first 13.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I just had a flash in my head.
You think that every time theymention Jesus getting crucified
in Christian churches that theysay spoiler alert before it?
Do you think they?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Too soon, too soon, anyway, spoiler alert before it,
do you think?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
do you think they like too soon, too soon, anyway.
Um, so the, I guess the, the,uh really nailed that right, oh
gosh there goes our wholechristian audience right there.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
They're gone not because it was disrespectful,
but because it was a pun right,exactly, they just don't like
puns, yeah, um.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
So again, uh, the, basically that.
You know, there there are anumber of people who followed
this, but the, those were thesort of the three big, uh what
most well known, I will say, um,forefathers, and they, I well,
I feel like it's not that theydeveloped it more, but it's, you
know, it's just like in today'sworld, they had the biggest
(16:43):
microphones or they had the.
You know that they were theones that sort of taught the
most people or influenced themost people.
So they were.
So what I'm saying is they wereinfluencers in 300 bc, you know
basically.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
That's a really good point, Because, yeah, the person
who taught Marcus Aureliusisn't on this list you know
Right exactly.
Yeah, in fact.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I looked it up and I had never.
I said it.
I think it's Rusticus is whothey said, and I've read about
Stoicism before.
I never heard that name beforeand that makes me very ignorant.
But um, but again, that's whywe read stuff to make yourself
not ignorant, right?
So less ignorant, less, less soignorant.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Anyway you'll always.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Don't worry, brian, you'll always be ignorant to me
yeah I know that for sure, um,so the the thing I guess one of
the things, the direction we'regoing to take the conversation
is talking about the fourvirtues of stoicism, and
(17:49):
basically the part of the reasonwhy I like this philosophy is
because it's boil.
It boils down so simply andclearly, but then in its
execution it's not just likeanything else, where you're like
, hey, this is so simple whenyou just look at the structure
of it, but then when youactually try to live it, you're
(18:10):
like, okay, this is a lot morecomplicated.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Um, it's like easy, easy to understand, difficult to
master, right, exactly simple.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
But yeah, exactly.
And then we did have a littlebit of a debate about what order
to do these in.
We couldn't figure out what wewere.
We were reading differentarticles and talking about
different stuff, and it's likeso in the the most fair way, or
probably so, if you, if you'relistening to this podcast, and
you're like why would theypossibly do it that way?
And we'll just let you knowright now.
(18:39):
We just did it in alphabeticalorder, so that's the most simple
way for us simpletons to dividethis stuff up.
But just so I can, so I'll putthose out right now at the
beginning.
So I'll put those out right nowat the beginning.
The four virtues are courage,justice, temperance and wisdom,
(19:03):
and we'll be discussing them inthat order.
So, yeah, let's see where canwe go from here.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Well, I, got to gather my courage and begin with
that.
What is, what is courage?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
And does the, does the dictionary definition match
the stoic definition?
So let's see here, where did my, where did my?
Here we go, um.
So basically, um, I'm trying tosee if I can find like a, a
good, um, a good definition ofcourage from the, you know, from
(19:50):
the stoic perspective, um, I'vegot something basic according
to this article.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
It just says courage is the ability to act in
situations where we feel fearwell, that seems like that
collectorcom yeah, okay and thatseems like that would track for
, you know, or any other type ofcourage, um I mean, I think one
(20:17):
of the things you know,stoicism faces the reality that
you know we're yes, we're human,uh, which we're also animals
like this, the human animal, andevery everything with the legs,
feel fear, you know, yeah, it'ssomething we have to contend
(20:40):
with, and sometimes that fearserves us and sometimes it
doesn't.
Yes yeah.
It's like any other reaction.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
That's why I was sort of struggling with the, because
a lot of this I mean just likeany other, like true philosophy,
I think a lot of it is not like, hey, it's not like epictetus
came out and said I'm going todefine courage for you.
Here's what your definition ofcourage is like.
You know what I mean.
It's all quotes which is nearand dear to our heart, right?
Um?
And that's why I've beenreading I'm reading a couple of
(21:14):
different quotes right now, andum, and so that helps to give
you an idea of what they'retalking about when they're, when
they say it's courage.
So, uh, one of the things thatsays in this article.
It says, uh, epictetus was onceasked which words would help a
person thrive, and the quote istwo words should be committed to
memory and obeyed, persist andresist.
(21:38):
And I feel like that's you know, sort of gives us an idea of
what they were talking aboutwhen they meant courage is like
hey, uh, keep going, you know,no matter what you know, uh
don't give up, don't fail, likeif you fail, don't you, you got
to keep going, kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I think, yeah, those are useful or interesting,
Because I feel like there's asoft stigma that to be stoic is
to be very passive.
Yeah.
Right, and it's not necessarilythe case like I guess there are
some ways you can resistpassively yeah like being
(22:22):
passive, aggressive right butbut generally like to resist and
to be persistently resisting,then you're gonna have to be
active and maybe even proactivewell, and I going on, that
there's sort of the gladiatortheme.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
The other this is this is from um this episode is
really gonna be about thegladiator.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, exactly.
Hey, we're doing a review ofthe gladiator, yeah how?
So?
Here's a quoteiator.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Here's a good quote from Russell Crowe.
It is no.
So this is a passage from oneof, I guess, epictetus' writings
called Discourses, and thissort of sums up Courage.
It says Don't you know, life islike a military campaign One
(23:18):
must serve on watch, another inreconnaissance, another on the
front line.
So so it is.
For us, each person's life iskind of a battle, and a long,
varied one too.
You must keep watch like asoldier and do everything
commanded.
You have been stationed in akey post, not some lowly place,
and not for a short time, butfor life.
(23:50):
So there are sort of he's sortof making the comparison there
of like a daily battle.
That you know I already said.
If it still makes sense today,2500 years later, based on the
world changing so much, thenthat's one thing.
But the other thing is when youstart to, when you read a quote
or a passage like that, andother things that you've read in
self-help or self-improvementpop up.
(24:11):
So like that one is the you.
You know, in essence, the dailybattle.
Like you're, you know the doone thing every day that scares
you.
This is straight from that, Imean this is you know.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Feel the fear and do it anyway.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Feel the fear and do it anyway.
Yeah, exactly Things like that.
And you can go through all theself-help books Not all, but
many of the self-help books, uh,not all but many of the
self-help books and they havesomething that has to do with
failure or the fact that youknow you're gonna have to get
out of your comfort zone.
Um, you know, it's uh, theagain comfort zone.
(24:49):
What is that like?
Getting out of your comfortzone is just courage.
It's just do I have?
Do I have the, you know thestrength, the inner strength to
be able to say, like I'muncomfortable with this, but I'm
going to push forward, and uh,so yeah, it's interesting
(25:09):
another aspect of resist thatI'm reminded of is steven
pressfield his book the war ofart yeah, he talks about.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
He kind of personifies our tendency to
procrastinate and avoid andnegative self-talk and such as
resistance or the resistanceyeah there's, um, you know,
quoting him, it's on the fieldof the self stands a knight and
a dragon.
You are the knight, resistanceis the dragon.
(25:41):
Yeah, and something he says theway resistance behaves is
resistance will tell youanything to keep you from doing
your work yeah you know, in yourwork being your art.
You know the thing that you werecalled upon, the thing that you
know when you're mostsober-minded and when you are
being your art.
You know the thing that youwere called upon, the thing that
you know when you're mostsober-minded and when you are
being your, in your best self'ssort of mind frame, like what
(26:04):
you feel compelled to do yeahlike that's, that's your art.
Yeah, all the things that sortof drag you away from that are
just different manifestations ofthe resistance.
Yeah.
We sort of have to resist theresistance you know, to have the
courage to persist and resistour tendency to avoid facing
(26:27):
things you know even if they'reour own demons.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Well, it reminds me of that.
The quote many people have uh,at least many people over the
course of the time that I'vebeen in Toastmasters have used
this quote.
Um, and I won't read the wholething, just because, but it's
that Theodore Roosevelt quoteabout the, the, the man in the
arena or the person in the arena.
It's like so yeah, it'sbasically like a longer,
(26:54):
obviously longer quote.
That's why I'm not going toread the whole thing.
But in essence, what there's,what he's saying is you know,
that's all about courage, isyou're the one that's fighting
the fight and we don't reallycare about the critic or the
person outside of the arena.
That's like you know, and Ithink it takes courage that
brings us back.
(27:15):
Yeah, exactly yeah.
And have we mentioned RussellCrowe's amazing performance in
Gladiator in the last threeminutes?
No, we have not.
Well, I mean, come on, it's agood movie.
I mean, come on, you got toadmit.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Well, I'm surprised you ever mentioned Sam Wise in
Rudy.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Oh yeah.
Yeah, that is true, takes a lotof courage, it does you know?
notice how I refer to the actorby another character right, yeah
, exactly, yeah um, no, I just,I, I think, uh again, to be able
to boil something down to likefour things and then, to start
(27:59):
with, you know, like I said, Imean think about it this way if
somebody asked you aboutstoicism, you could, you could
say four words to them, andthose four words have a lot of
meaning, but they're, but that'show distilled this philosophy
is.
It's down to here's what thefour things are.
And then, okay, you know,simple but complicated.
(28:25):
So, um, let's see what else.
Um, there was one other thing Iwanted to say about courage.
Um, can't remember off the topof my head.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Um, I think the world responds well to courage
generally.
Yeah.
Right, you know.
The more times than not youknow you stand up to a bully,
they back off maybe not in themoment Right, but like after the
fact, or I just I know that atvarious pivot points in my life,
(29:02):
in my career, in myrelationships, when I displayed
courage, good things came, evenif I was wrong yeah, you know
having the courage to then sayyou know what I was wrong, like
that is also is also, much moreoften than not, well responded
to.
So even if you don't I don'tknow want to be a stoic or
(29:25):
whatnot, or don't believe in thetenets, there's just some
practical tactics to at leastfrom rote pretending like you
are or the things they do youuse as your, you know your, your
life tool in order to live lifeby, like you know, whether
(29:57):
that's a religion or aspirituality or whatever
philosophy, um, I can't imagineany of them not having courage
at some point in them.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
I mean, you can look at any, any religion, any.
I mean you're like oh, even ifyou don't believe it.
It's like I don't believeanybody doesn't believe that.
I don't think there's anybodyout there that you don't need
any courage for life, like youknow what I mean.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Like like if, uh, if they do believe that they're
sure they're not going to say sobecause they don't have courage
to speak.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, exactly but that's like I said, it's another
good point.
Um, just how, how pervasive, Iguess, this philosophy, is it
within sort of everything else?
Um and it's funny because Idon't know, this is something
(30:44):
that I don't know, I'm alsoignorant of is you know, in
essence, what religion they were?
Um, whether or not they?
Were you know, obviously theyweren't christian.
You know because this ishappening before christ um, and
so you know.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
But you know, or, if it was christ, could have
compelled them I guess you knowit's, it's all, it's all there.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
but um, anyway, just a just a side note.
So yeah, so courage is numberone.
So number two is justice, whichI think was really cool.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, number two is the shit.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah, it really is, but I feel like they have a
slightly different, um, aslightly different definition of
it, and that's why I'm sort offumbling around.
Do you happen to have thedefinition pulled up?
Let's see.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Of of a court like according to Stoics.
What justice is yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I uh well so it seems like, do do what's right.
Yes, it seems like do do what'sright.
Yes, um and yeah, I think, interms of our common vernacular,
I think it, justice is justwhat's right, right well, so you
?
Can seek justice, but justiceisn't for a stoic.
(32:12):
It seems that justice isn'tjustice unless it is embodied.
Yeah, yeah.
You know you combine Nike withwith our, with justice, just do
it right, just do justice.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Just do what's right.
That I.
That probably fits me the mostand the reason why I'm reading
this quote by Marcus Aureliusright now.
It says and a commitment tojustice in your own acts, which
means thought and actionresulting in a common in the
common good, what you were bornto do.
(32:45):
So for me, just they're they'resaying justice is you aren't
just making decisions about whatyou do based on what you want,
but you're doing it out for thecommon good, like you're doing
it for what's the best foreveryone here.
Right.
And that's big to me as a nine,because I love that.
(33:07):
I love cause I never makedecisions hardly ever that are
just like what's best for me.
It's like, yeah, but what's thebest for everyone involved here
, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, but as a nine and you know, remember, I'm one
too a lot of the calculus isn'tnecessarily what's best for
anyone, everyone.
It's more like what's gonnabother everyone the least yeah,
what's gonna cause the leastamount of disconnection.
It's not necessarily what'sbest, even if people disagree
with it, because there's thatcourage element, or there may be
, the courage element may belacking.
Um, it's kind of uh, what willkeep the most people off my back
(33:47):
?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
yeah, well, and I think that, yeah, that's not
necessarily justice, you know no, I think it's true and I think,
yeah, I think you're right.
I think sometimes I, andprobably other nines, make
decisions that are notnecessarily for the common good
but are for hey, you know what?
I'll just, I'll give them thisone.
I don't want the confrontation,so I'm gonna give them more and
(34:09):
I'll take less.
Because that?
Because I don't want theconfrontation, right, yeah?
Or the potential confrontation.
Yeah, exactly, but I do thinkthat justice this article says
that justice.
Well, it says, of the fourstoic virtues, marcus Aurelius
said justice was the mostimportant and he said it was the
(34:30):
source of all of the virtues.
And part of the reason why Ithink that he said that is based
on some other readings that Iwas looking at or other articles
I was looking at that said thatjustice is sort of like the
overall ethical decision makerfor you, um virtue, just because
(34:53):
you're, how do you it's, it's,it's like it's the lens which
you know, through with which youare making your decisions.
That was a really complicatedsentence.
Um, it's, it's uh you know likeyou're you're every time you
come to a decision, whetherthat's a decision to eat this or
(35:16):
that, or whether it's adecision to fight this person or
not, fight this person or dowhatever you're going to do it's
all filtering through justice.
Is there true justice in thisdecision that I'm making?
And so?
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I've got a lot of growth in this area.
What?
Speaker 2 (35:30):
do you mean so much?
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I do.
There's so much I do.
That's not for the common good.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Okay.
It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
It doesn't do harm, but it's not for the common good
, Like um just playing videogames, you know?
Yeah, I'm super idle, Like I'myeah maybe a modest amount of
good for myself, and there's somany other options that would be
(35:58):
, you know, more good for me,you know my own common good, um,
but then, like, in terms ofbenefit to others, it's zero or
negative, right like I'm right,I'm stealing time, assuming I'm
not playing friends, that I'mstealing time from friends or
(36:18):
projects or loved ones, like um,but then again, you know, some
an argument can be made that byyou having that downtime, by you
having your, maybe that's avice, not a virtue, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
But the point is you've got that downtime, so
maybe that is that you knowyou're better in your
relationships because you have alittle bit of time, that you
have the ability to do somethingfor yourself.
That you're, you know, and thatfor some people that's
meditation, for some peoplethat's going to a yoga class,
some people that's going on arun, some people that's playing
two hours worth of video games,or seven or 12 or three days
(36:54):
straight when you can't sleep.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Um, and and I would say that going on a run or
meditating or journaling or you,you know what the other stuff
you mentioned like those have anet positive right.
Like those would be betterthings to do.
Oh yeah, so it's um yeah, and Iunderstand, everybody has vices
(37:18):
like you could swap out videogames for smoking or binge
watching or whatever facebookdoom scrolling yeah but I think,
yeah, there's, there's so manylike other things I could be
doing that time.
That would be good for myselfand others.
That would be good for myself,right?
(37:38):
So, like it would be, yeah,downtime, it'd be therapeutic or
it'd be whatnot.
I remember having similarthoughts last time I went on a
was it a fiction purge?
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I remember that.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
I remember when you went on the fiction fast.
I remember that that's how longI've known you.
I know you through all of thethrough all of the ups and the
downs.
The fries and the no fries F andthe no fries, fries, no fries,
no fiction, fiction, you knowwhatever?
No video games.
Video games, um well, and it'sfunny to me because it's that's
(38:14):
one of those things that, um,you know, as I, as I was saying,
you know, looking atphilosophies, uh, to me that's
not.
It's like very similar to likewhen we're trying to debate the,
like our constitution in theUnited States and we're like
trying to think, yeah, but whenthey wrote this constitution,
they had no idea that, like, youknow, one of the and don't,
(38:37):
please, I'm not like sayingmaking any judgment or anything
like that on either side, butyou know, when they wrote the
second amendment, they didn'tknow the types of weapons that
would be in people's hands.
So the question is whether ornot they would have written the
Second Amendment the same way ifthey had known that, or if they
would have not written it, orif they would have done
(38:57):
something differently.
We'll never know the answer tothat question, but it's the same
thing.
Obviously, before Christ,christ, they didn't have a
contemplation of somebodysitting at home playing video
games.
So how do you apply thisphilosophy to something like
that?
You know what I mean?
Um, yeah, it.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
It is kind of a I don't know the notion is a bit
culture breaking, brain breaking.
I'm reminded of, reminded of aphilosophy video I watched on
YouTube, let me see if I canfind it.
He was sort of modernizinganother ancient philosophy.
Actually, no, it was a modern.
I think it was a modern thinkerand it was even maybe an
(39:39):
economist.
This is a very vaguerecollection but at any rate,
through pure logic, he was ableto make the rational case that
people who are in first worldnations, who don't give a lot of
their income to third world, orpeople who need help, are
(40:02):
immoral, are evil.
People who need help, rightlike, are immoral, are evil.
And it was like I didn't likeadopt that belief or viewpoint
but it's like I couldn't.
I just sort of sat with thewalls like just a big dose of
cognitive dissonance, right,because it's like I don't feel
like a bad person yeah and Idon't feel like he's right, but
(40:22):
I don't know how he's wrong.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
You know, I couldn't, I couldn't say like, where the
lapse in logic was on eitherside.
So it was just sort of a, likeI said, a brain breaking thought
and there's a bit of that heretoo Like, yeah, marcus really
didn't have the luxury of havinga Nintendo Switch or a
smartphone in his pocket, youknow, but at the same time it's
(40:52):
like, is it really a luxury?
You know?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Yeah, but I also think too that if you probably,
if you studied the people ofthat time, there was something
that was the equivalent of doomscrolling, like there was
something that was theequivalent, like there was
something during their was theequivalent of doom scrolling,
like there was something thatwas equal, like there was
something during their timegossip, I, I don't know.
I mean, it's something thoughthe closest equivalent, you know
yeah the town crier and yeahand doing something of ancient
(41:20):
belief systems.
That said, gossip is wrong well,and I'm also sure that, like
based on you know, if somepeople have the opinion that
video games are a waste of time,you know, at past time, if you
will, then there there wassomething during that time that
was like oh you're so this isthis person's just wasting their
time doing this thing when theyshould be out, like tending to
the crops or doing somethingthat's for the greater good, you
(41:43):
know well, well, sure, and I'mnot saying that we should all be
doing this stuff productive.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
It's just there's downtime, activities that are
much more effective at, you know, at recovery, at restoration.
And then, on the other token,you mentioned the Second
Amendment.
That's the thing, like I'mpretty sure the forefathers
figured, whatever would comewould get a new amendment or the
(42:08):
amendment would change, like.
The whole point of it being anamendment is maybe they lied to
themselves when they toldthemselves.
But they told themselves thisstuff is negotiable, it is
changeable over time to accountfor whatever else changes over
time.
You know.
Yeah.
It's we're the ones that seem tohold amendments as something
that can't be changed, eventhough amendment means right to
(42:31):
change like literally yeah,literally like that.
When you amend something,you're changing something right,
exactly um note.
Note that I'm not arguing thatanything should change around
the second amendment yes, I'mjust saying it's an amendment.
I hate that.
I hate that I have to do that.
I hate to change things.
We can't change things, I meanit's.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
It's definitely a nine thing to do that.
You know that we're bothbasically saying anybody to
listen to this.
Please don't like be angry thatwe're on either side, Cause I'm
not telling you which side I'mon and I don't.
I really am not this, not, it'snot what.
This whole podcast is about.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
So you know.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Lines are on the line yeah, exactly, exactly, hey.
Just in case you were thinkingabout having confrontation with
me, let me cut you off at thepass there.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Okay, um, please don't just at the risk of
tangenting this whole thing, Ifind the place I create the most
conflict for myself is byseeing the other person's side
and the person I'm talking with,who's complaining about them,
thinks I'm defending them.
They think I'm taking a side.
(43:36):
Right.
And that creates all kinds ofconfrontation, so like I always
preface like I'm not defendingthem.
I hear you, you think this,this and this I agree with you,
but I also imagine this personis thinking this, and they're
not entirely wrong either.
You know, it's like yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Right, yeah, but that's also a nine thing to do,
because you're trying to bringpeople together, like in.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Hey, let's find the common ground.
Where's the common?
Speaker 2 (44:00):
ground in this, like this, is I see this, can you see
this?
Okay, because, because I seethis and can you see this, yeah,
I can see that well, there's asort of a commonality that, yeah
, um, which takes we seekjustice in our own way which
takes a lot of courage too, youknow, yeah, to seek temperance.
So uh, the next one?
No, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
No, I won't be ready for temperance yeah, I don't
think so um five minutes left.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
I know I was trying to, and that's what that was.
The other thing I was going todo is, um, the uh, I'm trying to
think, oh yeah, so justice, umyeah, so anyway, I guess like to
just close that off.
That last thing is is just whenI was reading one of the
articles I just talked aboutthat being and I sort of
(44:47):
mentioned this already, but itwas that it was the um, oh okay,
uh, good quote.
Nick just sent me a quote asecond ago.
I'll read it in a second, butit that it, you know that
justice is, is a, like I said,the way that it was described is
it's like the ethics behind anydecision that's being made, and
(45:17):
so Cicero da Led what I don'tknow how to say.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
The first one, I think that's the text in which
you wrote.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Maybe it was Cicero, Okay, Cicero the good the good
of the people is the chief law.
Yeah, I mean that that sumsjustice up in the in the best
way, I would think.
And interestingly enough, though, you know that that's spoken by
somebody who's a ruler like ourleader, and you know that's
(46:00):
spoken by somebody who's a rulerlike, or a leader, and actually
, again, you know, is this ishis philosophy was like,
different than many of the otheremperors or rulers at the time,
in that he had this, you know,had a very what would I say, a
very distinct way, or verydeliberate way of making
(46:20):
decisions.
And you know, I think peoplecrave that.
I think people crave knowingwell, they like, if you knew
people, that people that makedecisions based on some level of
here's what, here's what.
I'm filtering everythingthrough, at least you can try to
track with the decision, sowhen they make a decision, you
(46:42):
can say, oh, I could see how youcould arrive at that conclusion
through these filters.
Maybe I wouldn't have arrivedat the same conclusion, but I
could see.
You know, it's easier for youto track and it's easier for you
to feel good about it, orbetter about it, even if you
disagree with it.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Yeah, the good of the people, though is a tough spot
from a pragmatic standpoint.
For one.
Cicero was assassinated andthere's a YouTube video by I
think it's CP Grey.
He does a lot of cool like hisanimations appear very simple.
(47:20):
They're generally a stickfigure.
You know like it's not aboutthe video.
It's more about the content andthe animations versus theirs to
help.
But one of the videos he's madea long time ago, like seven or
eight or more years ago, it wascalled rules for rulers.
In fact I watched it as I wasabout to become club president.
(47:43):
Oh, wow.
You know, the first time, yeah,because I was curious, right, I
wanted like, hey, what are somegood general principles for
being a leader in things?
And?
And the whole thing goes intohow, whether you're a democracy
or dictatorship, you've got tokeep the people under you happy
yeah, more so than the entirepopulace, because it's the
people, people under you, whowill take you out of your
(48:08):
position of power, whereinyou're really truly hoping to
help the people.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
And so it's like if you don't keep the generals
happy, then they will organize acoup, and so the good of the
people is a bit idealistic, um,because if you lose your power
right, then you can't help thepeople anymore right right yeah,
it's a.
(48:36):
It's a fascinating video.
I try to watch it every coupleof years just to remind myself
of some of those rules forrulers.
Yeah, yeah um.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
So here's a good quote, I guess to top that off
is uh, this is marcus aureliusfrom the meditations and says uh
, the object of life is not tobe on the side of the majority,
but to escape finding oneself inthe ranks of the insane, which
which I think is pretty muchit's.
(49:09):
That would be great.
You just don't want people tothink you're crazy or you're
with the crazy people.
Basically is hey, you know, butyou also don't necessarily need
to be the majority.
So which which I think is agood point when we're talking
about the good of the people orthe you know, we're not talking
about the majority here, atleast, based on this, they're
not talking about that is, youknow, it could be a minority,
(49:33):
but it's the best thing foreveryone.
Um, that doesn't make any sense.
But what I'm trying to get atis it doesn't have to be just by
raw numbers.
What's the best thing to do ifthat makes sense?
so sure you know, because themajority could be the insane in
this circumstance.
(49:53):
So if they're the insane, thegood of the.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
I think the good of the people isn't necessarily the
same thing as what, what thepeople want right right like
what the people want is facebook, yeah, or, or slot machines, or
yeah you know pornography likeunlimited sources of money
on-demand entertainment all thetime.
(50:18):
You know you're saying thateveryone is hedonistic.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
Is that what you're saying?
That?
That is what I inadvertentlyimplied, and maybe I'm just
projecting you know ishedonistic.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Is that what you're saying?
That is what I inadvertentlyimplied.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
And maybe I'm just projecting.
I was just saying that I'm whatpeople really want is to get
off this podcast right now andgo play video games.
That's what the people reallywant, but the quote-unquote
people they really want videogames right now.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
We're at the 50-minute mark, Brian.
I am trying to respect ouraudience's time.
They've already arrived at work.
They're waiting for you to shutup.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Right, waiting for me to shut up.
They're sitting in the car inthe parking lot like going to go
over the other two virtuestemperance and wisdom and we'll
(51:11):
probably say something, or atleast try to say something funny
while we're doing that, andtalk about some food, I think.
So that's how it goes, andthat's how that goes Bye.
Yeah, help yourself.
Welcome to Help Yourself.
Food and Philosophy with Brianand Nick.
I'm Nick and I'm Brian, I hearstoicism is all the rage these
days.
Sounds like they're doing itwrong what you eating, brian.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Probably, I don't know.
Also, I think they're also deadtoo.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Oh no, there's all kinds of modern stoics out there
.
I know, I think they're, Ithink they're, I think they're
also dead too.
So, uh no, there's all kinds ofmodern stoics, I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Uh, what am I eating?
Uh, leftovers.
Today, on this uh redacted dayof the week, it is a I had a
cold.
Well, actually it wasn't cold,it was sort of lukewarm.
Uh, mainly because I wasn'tpatient enough to heat it up
completely in the microwave, Ijust sort of put it in for like
(00:52):
a couple minutes, but it was aleftover.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
You ate my belly up.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Exactly, I was hungry .
It was leftover kebab with thechicken kebab, and it had purple
onions, onions, like chunks ofpurple onions, some, uh, red
peppers, some chunks of chicken,and then it had like a I
actually don't know the saucebecause I didn't make them
myself um, but it was like a,like, almost like a.
(01:19):
It had a little bit of likesweetness to it, but it wasn't
like a barbecue sauce oranything like that.
It was more like a almostalmost like salad dressing kind
of you know how like you do,like the Italian dressing or
something like that.
And uh, and then uh yeah, thatwas really yeah, something like
that.
Yeah, it was actually morebalsamic, yeah, it had like a
vinegar kind of feel to it, butit had a slight sweet pain to it
(01:42):
as well.
So I don't know, I don't knowit was good, I'm telling you.
I'll just tell you that umspoken like a true footy, right
exactly, and uh, and the fact isthat, um, you know, maybe it
was good because I was hungry,maybe it was good because it's
actually good, I don't know.
So we'll never know that.
The answer to that question Ihad that.
(02:04):
And then there was alsoprobably a quarter of a chicken
breast boneless, skinlesschicken breast that was also
grilled, but that was just saltand pepper on it.
And then there's a person in myoffice that lives in Minnesota
Wait, wisconsin, sorry, notMinnesota.
When?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
does that work?
You said they're in your office, but they live, so they
visiting.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so they, they work remote all the
time from, and I take that back.
It's not Minnesota, it'sWisconsin and uh wait, I take
that back it might be minnesota.
I always get them confused andagain, the people that are out
there if there's anyone wholistens for me those states is
probably very angry at me rightnow because they're totally
(02:53):
different places, but um, to menorthern states all the same
into my head the you know, theones that get like feet and feet
of snow, um in the winter andyou're, you know, basically a
winter wonderland up there, um,no, anyway.
So when she comes down to theoffice she brings cheese curds
from like that are like localcheese curds, like so they're
(03:16):
like real true, like dairy farmsup there, yeah and they're like
literally wisconsin I wouldthink so, but uh, anyway, it's
just they're in a bag, like aplain plastic bag, with like a
plain label on it that just sayswhat kind of cheese curds are,
so like they're differentflavors.
So there's.
There were regular plain, youknow, cheddar cheese curds,
(03:36):
there were Cajun seasoningcheese curds, there was garlic
and dill cheese curds and thenthere was also a ranch like
ranch cheese curds.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Wow, so there are all these different flavors.
So is it all just chunks ofcheese dipped in these sauces?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
No, it's like so, it's like the powder.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
So like, think of like no, they're not so like.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Think of, like the herbs that would be in like a
ranch dressing, and then samething like garlic and dill.
It might be like I don't knowhow, what they use for it, Maybe
garlic, you know garlic powderor garlic salt plus some dill in
there or whatever, but theyjust basically flavor them up.
And the Cajun season ones areall red, red ish, you know.
They sort of roll them in somekind of Cajun seasoning and uh,
(04:24):
and you know you can eat themcold.
But usually what I do is I'lltake a couple of them and put
them in a bowl and like heatthem for just a just enough to
like warm them up and softenthem so you can still pick them
up as like an actual thing andum, so I had that along with my
lunch, which was really good.
(04:44):
Every time that she bringsthose it's exciting to me.
Also, I know when she's in theoffice because there's all of a
sudden cheese curds thatmagically appear in the
refrigerator.
So she's like the cheese curdfairy.
So I had a couple of those.
And then Brian's BeverageCorner.
(05:06):
I do have a couple of those.
And then Brian's beveragecorner Um, I do have a thing of
water here.
I do have a little bit of atheme going on here.
So I've got, uh, a coconutpineapple bubbly which is, you
know, like sparkling watercoconut pineapple or boobly
whatever.
Yeah, boobly Sorry water.
(05:27):
Coconut pineapple or booblywhatever, uh yeah, boobly Sorry.
And then.
But then I also have a hundredpercent pure coconut water that
is pineapple, so it's pineapplecoconut coconut water, so I'm
having a very tropical uhafternoon, and uh, and so those
things are keeping my my quench,my quench, thirst, thirsted.
(05:48):
No, my thirst quenched today,kind of.
But, uh, I didn't intend to havethat theme.
I just grabbed the thing out oftheir fridge and then I'm like,
oh, I'm going to have this, I'mgoing to have this.
And I'm like, oh, I didn't, Idid that just by accident, so it
sort of worked out.
Sounds like you had a craving.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Uh, probably either that, or there was limited other
choices it's like, oh, I canhave this toilet water, or I can
have pineapple coconut waterright, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Well, what about you?
What?
What are you eating?
I think I can smell it fromhere.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
I got a personal pan Jets pizza.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Greatly deviating from my standard.
I wanted to get somethingdifferent.
I always have been a fan ofwhite pizzas, pizzas, and I saw
that chet's has a greek pizza.
I don't know if it's limitedtime or what uh-huh but I
pounced on that.
They got the standard, liketurbo crust and sesame seed
(07:00):
flavorizing, but then, yeah, thethe greek toppings are.
Of course, you know they'repremium mozzarella, but they
also throw in feta cheese, dicedtomatoes, kalamata olives, yeah
, mild peppers and red onionsthat sounds really good for
dipping, they, they give a niceuh, it looks like about six
(07:23):
ounces, or oh, that's not sixounces, it's got to be like four
.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
That's like yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Six ounces is, yeah, on its way to being a full cup,
you know that's not right.
Yeah, this is definitely fourounces, so half a cup of Greek
dressing.
Yeah.
And so it's funny you mentionedyour, you know, kebab dressing
being kind of Italian-ish andsweet.
(07:49):
This is fairly sweet, much moretangy.
I would describe it as kind oflike a creamy Italian dressing
with a bit more brine in theflavor, and if I had to guess,
I'd say poppy seeds.
Okay.
(08:09):
Kind of that unique umami sortof flavor that goes with poppy
seed stuff.
Yeah, and there are littleblack flecks in there, so that
gives me additional wonderings.
But yeah, so I'm really.
I also added some light ranchto it because it doesn't come
with sauce, so I wanted thepizza part to have its own sauce
(08:33):
without pouring the yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
The big Wait so you added.
You added that to the pizza orto the.
You added that to the othersauce To the pizza.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, so I'm using the Greek dip or
the Greek dressing on the sideas dipping sauce for the crust.
Oh okay, yeah, so, so I'm usingthe greek dip or the greek on
dressing on the side as yeahdipping sauce for the crust, you
know, but it's really tangy.
So I'm grateful that I havesome blue raspberry prime nice
hydration drink.
Uh, these things are superflavorful, like like the first
(09:03):
time I had it.
It was, it felt like I drankall the flavor of you know, like
a blue Kool-Aid in one sip, youknow the entire blue Kool-Aid
in one sip it's 10% coconutwater, which is nice.
Right.
Although it is sweetened withsucralose, it's like the middle
ingredient in the ingredientslist.
(09:23):
Sweetened with sucralose, it'slike the middle ingredient in
the ingredients list, so it'slike total sugars.
One gram includes zero grams ofadded sugar, but technically,
of course, it's because they'reusing sucralose and not real
sugar and yeah I still want thatdoes to my body other than I
have found.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I sometimes have to go to the bathroom yeah little
the coconut water is good,though, because it barrels added
hydration.
I think it's better for youthan I think it hydrates
slightly better than plain water.
So like having a little bit inthere probably just gives it a
little more enhanced hydrationquality, you know and also
(10:00):
probably I think so, and it alsogives it like a little bit of
probably a little bit of aflavor difference or profile.
And then I've found that coconutwater is a little bit like
thicker than actual water, likejust consistency wise.
So it probably gives it like adifferent feel just to have that
(10:20):
10% in there.
You know, you're just helpingyou, helping logan paul train
for his uh fight, his big fight,with mike tyson coming up, you
know yeah, I actually reduced myconsumption of these drinks
after you found that out after Ifound out it was the Logan Paul
(10:42):
of YouTube fame.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, I don't know, because I wasn't.
I was never a fan of his stuff.
And then I heard very distantlyabout some kind of scandal or
drama, like yeah, I'm just yeah.
I don't really need to havemuch to do with that guy.
I never watch his stuff.
Now I probably won't, yeah.
And now I'm drinking his product.
(11:04):
I probably don't need to drinkthis either.
Maybe there's a betterhydration drink.
I don't know.
It's not like I activelyboycott him, but I also don't.
I don't, yeah, I just.
There are plenty of othercontent creators that interest
me to pursue.
I can only watch so much so,like he never showed up on my,
(11:29):
my algorithms recommendations,you know, uh.
And then of course, I also havewater, water, just in case.
I want something to tame thisstrong flavor yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
That's always good to have the uh the extra
moderation, you know, yeah, sometemperance some temperance.
Gotta have the courage, you know, to have the water near you and
uh well maybe, on that note, weshould let the audience in on
our our little, uh slight insidejoke.
(12:03):
I guess it's not going to beinside for much longer.
What's our topic today?
Our topic today, and probablythe next episode as well, is
going to be I will call it the,I won't call it the granddaddy,
but I will call it one of themainstays, the uncle of
(12:26):
philosophy, or it's one of the,at least one of the big boys,
heavy hitters, let's call it aheavy hitter in the philosophy
arena.
And it's stoicism, and I'vealways been sort of fascinated
with stoicism.
I had a friend at the gym whowas really fascinated with it
and had, like he had like likeLatin words tattooed on the on
(12:50):
his inner forearms that werelike basically inner thigh, yeah
, on his inner thighs yeah.
No.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
He had your arm out, I could tell you yeah, his inner
forearm, his inner.
Oh sorry.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, forearm his inner yeah and uh, but it was.
You know, it's one of thosethings where, um, if you really
get into it, even though thiswas a philosophy that was
developed and began in essencebefore christ you know, three,
four hundred years before christ, it was um, you know, it's
something that's still veryrelevant.
(13:24):
I think, like when I read it tome it resonates in.
You know, I guess it's one ofthose things that I've said it
before on this podcast but to me, self-help and philosophy and
other things, if they don't makesense based on a changing world
, like the world changes, andthen all of a sudden you're like
this doesn't really make senseanymore, then I feel like it's
(13:46):
sort of a weaker type ofphilosophy.
This is something that youcould read the quotes now, you
can read about it and you couldlive your life now, as you said,
there are modern day Stoicsthat are like, yeah, here's how
I live my life right now andit's based on this, you know,
over 2000 year old philosophy.
So so I guess start at thebeginning is what you know in
(14:15):
essence.
When did it begin?
I already said that it sayssomewhere around 300 BC is when
it began and in essence, therewere a number of philosophers
(14:36):
that sort of you know grabbedonto it and continued to
continue to develop it and moveforward with it.
Some of the major philosophers,though, that we know, or that
are the most well-known, areSeneca, epictetus as well as
Marcus Aurelius.
Seneca Epictetus as well asMarcus Aurelius.
No-transcript gladiator.
I'm pretty sure that was likethere was some storyline in
(14:56):
there.
I watched it, rewatched thatrecently.
I'm pretty sure I was like waita minute, that's, that's marcus
, really like it's, he's thelead, the ruler or whatever.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
So, yeah, he was the one commanding the army yeah the
lead.
I forget the character's nameright, yeah commanded by you
know, until the war yeah yeah, Ithink he died in that war I'm
pretty sure.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yes, spoiler alert to this like 30 year old movie,
but um, I guess you can alwayshave a spoiler alert.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
You know like well that the marcus reallyvis dying
in that movie happens easily inthe first 30 minutes, if not the
first 13.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I just had a flash in my head.
You think that every time theymention Jesus getting crucified
in Christian churches that theysay spoiler alert before it?
Do you think they?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Too soon, too soon, anyway, spoiler alert before it,
do you think?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
do you think they like too soon, too soon, anyway.
Um, so the, I guess the, the,uh really nailed that right, oh
gosh there goes our wholechristian audience right there.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
They're gone not because it was disrespectful,
but because it was a pun right,exactly, they just don't like
puns, yeah, um.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
So again, uh, the, basically that.
You know, there there are anumber of people who followed
this, but the, those were thesort of the three big, uh what
most well known, I will say, um,forefathers, and they, I well,
I feel like it's not that theydeveloped it more, but it's, you
know, it's just like in today'sworld, they had the biggest
(16:43):
microphones or they had the.
You know that they were theones that sort of taught the
most people or influenced themost people.
So they were.
So what I'm saying is they wereinfluencers in 300 bc, you know
basically.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
That's a really good point, Because, yeah, the person
who taught Marcus Aureliusisn't on this list you know
Right exactly.
Yeah, in fact.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I looked it up and I had never.
I said it.
I think it's Rusticus is whothey said, and I've read about
Stoicism before.
I never heard that name beforeand that makes me very ignorant.
But um, but again, that's whywe read stuff to make yourself
not ignorant, right?
So less ignorant, less, less soignorant.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Anyway you'll always.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Don't worry, brian, you'll always be ignorant to me
yeah I know that for sure, um,so the the thing I guess one of
the things, the direction we'regoing to take the conversation
is talking about the fourvirtues of stoicism, and
(17:49):
basically the part of the reasonwhy I like this philosophy is
because it's boil.
It boils down so simply andclearly, but then in its
execution it's not just likeanything else, where you're like
, hey, this is so simple whenyou just look at the structure
of it, but then when youactually try to live it, you're
(18:10):
like, okay, this is a lot morecomplicated.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Um, it's like easy, easy to understand, difficult to
master, right, exactly simple.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
But yeah, exactly.
And then we did have a littlebit of a debate about what order
to do these in.
We couldn't figure out what wewere.
We were reading differentarticles and talking about
different stuff, and it's likeso in the the most fair way, or
probably so, if you, if you'relistening to this podcast, and
you're like why would theypossibly do it that way?
And we'll just let you knowright now.
(18:39):
We just did it in alphabeticalorder, so that's the most simple
way for us simpletons to dividethis stuff up.
But just so I can, so I'll putthose out right now at the
beginning.
So I'll put those out right nowat the beginning.
The four virtues are courage,justice, temperance and wisdom,
(19:03):
and we'll be discussing them inthat order.
So, yeah, let's see where canwe go from here.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Well, I, got to gather my courage and begin with
that.
What is, what is courage?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
And does the, does the dictionary definition match
the stoic definition?
So let's see here, where did my, where did my?
Here we go, um.
So basically, um, I'm trying tosee if I can find like a, a
good, um, a good definition ofcourage from the, you know, from
(19:50):
the stoic perspective, um, I'vegot something basic according
to this article.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
It just says courage is the ability to act in
situations where we feel fearwell, that seems like that
collectorcom yeah, okay and thatseems like that would track for
, you know, or any other type ofcourage, um I mean, I think one
(20:17):
of the things you know,stoicism faces the reality that
you know we're yes, we're human,uh, which we're also animals
like this, the human animal, andevery everything with the legs,
feel fear, you know, yeah, it'ssomething we have to contend
(20:40):
with, and sometimes that fearserves us and sometimes it
doesn't.
Yes yeah.
It's like any other reaction.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
That's why I was sort of struggling with the, because
a lot of this I mean just likeany other, like true philosophy,
I think a lot of it is not like, hey, it's not like epictetus
came out and said I'm going todefine courage for you.
Here's what your definition ofcourage is like.
You know what I mean.
It's all quotes which is nearand dear to our heart, right?
Um?
And that's why I've beenreading I'm reading a couple of
(21:14):
different quotes right now, andum, and so that helps to give
you an idea of what they'retalking about when they're, when
they say it's courage.
So, uh, one of the things thatsays in this article.
It says, uh, epictetus was onceasked which words would help a
person thrive, and the quote istwo words should be committed to
memory and obeyed, persist andresist.
(21:38):
And I feel like that's you know, sort of gives us an idea of
what they were talking aboutwhen they meant courage is like
hey, uh, keep going, you know,no matter what you know, uh
don't give up, don't fail, likeif you fail, don't you, you got
to keep going, kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I think, yeah, those are useful or interesting,
Because I feel like there's asoft stigma that to be stoic is
to be very passive.
Yeah.
Right, and it's not necessarilythe case like I guess there are
some ways you can resistpassively yeah like being
(22:22):
passive, aggressive right butbut generally like to resist and
to be persistently resisting,then you're gonna have to be
active and maybe even proactivewell, and I going on, that
there's sort of the gladiatortheme.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
The other this is this is from um this episode is
really gonna be about thegladiator.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, exactly.
Hey, we're doing a review ofthe gladiator, yeah how?
So?
Here's a quoteiator.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Here's a good quote from Russell Crowe.
It is no.
So this is a passage from oneof, I guess, epictetus' writings
called Discourses, and thissort of sums up Courage.
It says Don't you know, life islike a military campaign One
(23:18):
must serve on watch, another inreconnaissance, another on the
front line.
So so it is.
For us, each person's life iskind of a battle, and a long,
varied one too.
You must keep watch like asoldier and do everything
commanded.
You have been stationed in akey post, not some lowly place,
and not for a short time, butfor life.
(23:50):
So there are sort of he's sortof making the comparison there
of like a daily battle.
That you know I already said.
If it still makes sense today,2500 years later, based on the
world changing so much, thenthat's one thing.
But the other thing is when youstart to, when you read a quote
or a passage like that, andother things that you've read in
self-help or self-improvementpop up.
(24:11):
So like that one is the you.
You know, in essence, the dailybattle.
Like you're, you know the doone thing every day that scares
you.
This is straight from that, Imean this is you know.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Feel the fear and do it anyway.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Feel the fear and do it anyway.
Yeah, exactly Things like that.
And you can go through all theself-help books Not all, but
many of the self-help books, uh,not all but many of the
self-help books and they havesomething that has to do with
failure or the fact that youknow you're gonna have to get
out of your comfort zone.
Um, you know, it's uh, theagain comfort zone.
(24:49):
What is that like?
Getting out of your comfortzone is just courage.
It's just do I have?
Do I have the, you know thestrength, the inner strength to
be able to say, like I'muncomfortable with this, but I'm
going to push forward, and uh,so yeah, it's interesting
(25:09):
another aspect of resist thatI'm reminded of is steven
pressfield his book the war ofart yeah, he talks about.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
He kind of personifies our tendency to
procrastinate and avoid andnegative self-talk and such as
resistance or the resistanceyeah there's, um, you know,
quoting him, it's on the fieldof the self stands a knight and
a dragon.
You are the knight, resistanceis the dragon.
(25:41):
Yeah, and something he says theway resistance behaves is
resistance will tell youanything to keep you from doing
your work yeah you know, in yourwork being your art.
You know the thing that you werecalled upon, the thing that you
know when you're mostsober-minded and when you are
being your art.
You know the thing that youwere called upon, the thing that
you know when you're mostsober-minded and when you are
being your, in your best self'ssort of mind frame, like what
(26:04):
you feel compelled to do yeahlike that's, that's your art.
Yeah, all the things that sortof drag you away from that are
just different manifestations ofthe resistance.
Yeah.
We sort of have to resist theresistance you know, to have the
courage to persist and resistour tendency to avoid facing
(26:27):
things you know even if they'reour own demons.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Well, it reminds me of that.
The quote many people have uh,at least many people over the
course of the time that I'vebeen in Toastmasters have used
this quote.
Um, and I won't read the wholething, just because, but it's
that Theodore Roosevelt quoteabout the, the, the man in the
arena or the person in the arena.
It's like so yeah, it'sbasically like a longer,
(26:54):
obviously longer quote.
That's why I'm not going toread the whole thing.
But in essence, what there's,what he's saying is you know,
that's all about courage, isyou're the one that's fighting
the fight and we don't reallycare about the critic or the
person outside of the arena.
That's like you know, and Ithink it takes courage that
brings us back.
(27:15):
Yeah, exactly yeah.
And have we mentioned RussellCrowe's amazing performance in
Gladiator in the last threeminutes?
No, we have not.
Well, I mean, come on, it's agood movie.
I mean, come on, you got toadmit.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Well, I'm surprised you ever mentioned Sam Wise in
Rudy.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Oh yeah.
Yeah, that is true, takes a lotof courage, it does you know?
notice how I refer to the actorby another character right, yeah
, exactly, yeah um, no, I just,I, I think, uh again, to be able
to boil something down to likefour things and then, to start
(27:59):
with, you know, like I said, Imean think about it this way if
somebody asked you aboutstoicism, you could, you could
say four words to them, andthose four words have a lot of
meaning, but they're, but that'show distilled this philosophy
is.
It's down to here's what thefour things are.
And then, okay, you know,simple but complicated.
(28:25):
So, um, let's see what else.
Um, there was one other thing Iwanted to say about courage.
Um, can't remember off the topof my head.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Um, I think the world responds well to courage
generally.
Yeah.
Right, you know.
The more times than not youknow you stand up to a bully,
they back off maybe not in themoment Right, but like after the
fact, or I just I know that atvarious pivot points in my life,
(29:02):
in my career, in myrelationships, when I displayed
courage, good things came, evenif I was wrong yeah, you know
having the courage to then sayyou know what I was wrong, like
that is also is also, much moreoften than not, well responded
to.
So even if you don't I don'tknow want to be a stoic or
(29:25):
whatnot, or don't believe in thetenets, there's just some
practical tactics to at leastfrom rote pretending like you
are or the things they do youuse as your, you know your, your
life tool in order to live lifeby, like you know, whether
(29:57):
that's a religion or aspirituality or whatever
philosophy, um, I can't imagineany of them not having courage
at some point in them.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
I mean, you can look at any, any religion, any.
I mean you're like oh, even ifyou don't believe it.
It's like I don't believeanybody doesn't believe that.
I don't think there's anybodyout there that you don't need
any courage for life, like youknow what I mean.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Like like if, uh, if they do believe that they're
sure they're not going to say sobecause they don't have courage
to speak.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, exactly but that's like I said, it's another
good point.
Um, just how, how pervasive, Iguess, this philosophy, is it
within sort of everything else?
Um and it's funny because Idon't know, this is something
(30:44):
that I don't know, I'm alsoignorant of is you know, in
essence, what religion they were?
Um, whether or not they?
Were you know, obviously theyweren't christian.
You know because this ishappening before christ um, and
so you know.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
But you know, or, if it was christ, could have
compelled them I guess you knowit's, it's all, it's all there.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
but um, anyway, just a just a side note.
So yeah, so courage is numberone.
So number two is justice, whichI think was really cool.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, number two is the shit.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah, it really is, but I feel like they have a
slightly different, um, aslightly different definition of
it, and that's why I'm sort offumbling around.
Do you happen to have thedefinition pulled up?
Let's see.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Of of a court like according to Stoics.
What justice is yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I uh well so it seems like, do do what's right.
Yes, it seems like do do what'sright.
Yes, um and yeah, I think, interms of our common vernacular,
I think it, justice is justwhat's right, right well, so you
?
Can seek justice, but justiceisn't for a stoic.
(32:12):
It seems that justice isn'tjustice unless it is embodied.
Yeah, yeah.
You know you combine Nike withwith our, with justice, just do
it right, just do justice.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Just do what's right.
That I.
That probably fits me the mostand the reason why I'm reading
this quote by Marcus Aureliusright now.
It says and a commitment tojustice in your own acts, which
means thought and actionresulting in a common in the
common good, what you were bornto do.
(32:45):
So for me, just they're they'resaying justice is you aren't
just making decisions about whatyou do based on what you want,
but you're doing it out for thecommon good, like you're doing
it for what's the best foreveryone here.
Right.
And that's big to me as a nine,because I love that.
(33:07):
I love cause I never makedecisions hardly ever that are
just like what's best for me.
It's like, yeah, but what's thebest for everyone involved here
, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, but as a nine and you know, remember, I'm one
too a lot of the calculus isn'tnecessarily what's best for
anyone, everyone.
It's more like what's gonnabother everyone the least yeah,
what's gonna cause the leastamount of disconnection.
It's not necessarily what'sbest, even if people disagree
with it, because there's thatcourage element, or there may be
, the courage element may belacking.
Um, it's kind of uh, what willkeep the most people off my back
(33:47):
?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
yeah, well, and I think that, yeah, that's not
necessarily justice, you know no, I think it's true and I think,
yeah, I think you're right.
I think sometimes I, andprobably other nines, make
decisions that are notnecessarily for the common good
but are for hey, you know what?
I'll just, I'll give them thisone.
I don't want the confrontation,so I'm gonna give them more and
(34:09):
I'll take less.
Because that?
Because I don't want theconfrontation, right, yeah?
Or the potential confrontation.
Yeah, exactly, but I do thinkthat justice this article says
that justice.
Well, it says, of the fourstoic virtues, marcus Aurelius
said justice was the mostimportant and he said it was the
(34:30):
source of all of the virtues.
And part of the reason why Ithink that he said that is based
on some other readings that Iwas looking at or other articles
I was looking at that said thatjustice is sort of like the
overall ethical decision makerfor you, um virtue, just because
(34:53):
you're, how do you it's, it's,it's like it's the lens which
you know, through with which youare making your decisions.
That was a really complicatedsentence.
Um, it's, it's uh you know likeyou're you're every time you
come to a decision, whetherthat's a decision to eat this or
(35:16):
that, or whether it's adecision to fight this person or
not, fight this person or dowhatever you're going to do it's
all filtering through justice.
Is there true justice in thisdecision that I'm making?
And so?
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I've got a lot of growth in this area.
What?
Speaker 2 (35:30):
do you mean so much?
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I do.
There's so much I do.
That's not for the common good.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Okay.
It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
It doesn't do harm, but it's not for the common good
, Like um just playing videogames, you know?
Yeah, I'm super idle, Like I'myeah maybe a modest amount of
good for myself, and there's somany other options that would be
(35:58):
, you know, more good for me,you know my own common good, um,
but then, like, in terms ofbenefit to others, it's zero or
negative, right like I'm right,I'm stealing time, assuming I'm
not playing friends, that I'mstealing time from friends or
(36:18):
projects or loved ones, like um,but then again, you know, some
an argument can be made that byyou having that downtime, by you
having your, maybe that's avice, not a virtue, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
But the point is you've got that downtime, so
maybe that is that you knowyou're better in your
relationships because you have alittle bit of time, that you
have the ability to do somethingfor yourself.
That you're, you know, and thatfor some people that's
meditation, for some peoplethat's going to a yoga class,
some people that's going on arun, some people that's playing
two hours worth of video games,or seven or 12 or three days
(36:54):
straight when you can't sleep.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Um, and and I would say that going on a run or
meditating or journaling or you,you know what the other stuff
you mentioned like those have anet positive right.
Like those would be betterthings to do.
Oh yeah, so it's um yeah, and Iunderstand, everybody has vices
(37:18):
like you could swap out videogames for smoking or binge
watching or whatever facebookdoom scrolling yeah but I think,
yeah, there's, there's so manylike other things I could be
doing that time.
That would be good for myselfand others.
That would be good for myself,right?
(37:38):
So, like it would be, yeah,downtime, it'd be therapeutic or
it'd be whatnot.
I remember having similarthoughts last time I went on a
was it a fiction purge?
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I remember that.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
I remember when you went on the fiction fast.
I remember that that's how longI've known you.
I know you through all of thethrough all of the ups and the
downs.
The fries and the no fries F andthe no fries, fries, no fries,
no fiction, fiction, you knowwhatever?
No video games.
Video games, um well, and it'sfunny to me because it's that's
(38:14):
one of those things that, um,you know, as I, as I was saying,
you know, looking atphilosophies, uh, to me that's
not.
It's like very similar to likewhen we're trying to debate the,
like our constitution in theUnited States and we're like
trying to think, yeah, but whenthey wrote this constitution,
they had no idea that, like, youknow, one of the and don't,
(38:37):
please, I'm not like sayingmaking any judgment or anything
like that on either side, butyou know, when they wrote the
second amendment, they didn'tknow the types of weapons that
would be in people's hands.
So the question is whether ornot they would have written the
Second Amendment the same way ifthey had known that, or if they
would have not written it, orif they would have done
(38:57):
something differently.
We'll never know the answer tothat question, but it's the same
thing.
Obviously, before Christ,christ, they didn't have a
contemplation of somebodysitting at home playing video
games.
So how do you apply thisphilosophy to something like
that?
You know what I mean?
Um, yeah, it.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
It is kind of a I don't know the notion is a bit
culture breaking, brain breaking.
I'm reminded of, reminded of aphilosophy video I watched on
YouTube, let me see if I canfind it.
He was sort of modernizinganother ancient philosophy.
Actually, no, it was a modern.
I think it was a modern thinkerand it was even maybe an
(39:39):
economist.
This is a very vaguerecollection but at any rate,
through pure logic, he was ableto make the rational case that
people who are in first worldnations, who don't give a lot of
their income to third world, orpeople who need help, are
(40:02):
immoral, are evil.
People who need help, rightlike, are immoral, are evil.
And it was like I didn't likeadopt that belief or viewpoint
but it's like I couldn't.
I just sort of sat with thewalls like just a big dose of
cognitive dissonance, right,because it's like I don't feel
like a bad person yeah and Idon't feel like he's right, but
(40:22):
I don't know how he's wrong.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
You know, I couldn't, I couldn't say like, where the
lapse in logic was on eitherside.
So it was just sort of a, likeI said, a brain breaking thought
and there's a bit of that heretoo Like, yeah, marcus really
didn't have the luxury of havinga Nintendo Switch or a
smartphone in his pocket, youknow, but at the same time it's
(40:52):
like, is it really a luxury?
You know?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Yeah, but I also think too that if you probably,
if you studied the people ofthat time, there was something
that was the equivalent of doomscrolling, like there was
something that was theequivalent, like there was
something during their was theequivalent of doom scrolling,
like there was something thatwas equal, like there was
something during their timegossip, I, I don't know.
I mean, it's something thoughthe closest equivalent, you know
yeah the town crier and yeahand doing something of ancient
(41:20):
belief systems.
That said, gossip is wrong well,and I'm also sure that, like
based on you know, if somepeople have the opinion that
video games are a waste of time,you know, at past time, if you
will, then there there wassomething during that time that
was like oh you're so this isthis person's just wasting their
time doing this thing when theyshould be out, like tending to
the crops or doing somethingthat's for the greater good, you
(41:43):
know well, well, sure, and I'mnot saying that we should all be
doing this stuff productive.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
It's just there's downtime, activities that are
much more effective at, you know, at recovery, at restoration.
And then, on the other token,you mentioned the Second
Amendment.
That's the thing, like I'mpretty sure the forefathers
figured, whatever would comewould get a new amendment or the
(42:08):
amendment would change, like.
The whole point of it being anamendment is maybe they lied to
themselves when they toldthemselves.
But they told themselves thisstuff is negotiable, it is
changeable over time to accountfor whatever else changes over
time.
You know.
Yeah.
It's we're the ones that seem tohold amendments as something
that can't be changed, eventhough amendment means right to
(42:31):
change like literally yeah,literally like that.
When you amend something,you're changing something right,
exactly um note.
Note that I'm not arguing thatanything should change around
the second amendment yes, I'mjust saying it's an amendment.
I hate that.
I hate that I have to do that.
I hate to change things.
We can't change things, I meanit's.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
It's definitely a nine thing to do that.
You know that we're bothbasically saying anybody to
listen to this.
Please don't like be angry thatwe're on either side, Cause I'm
not telling you which side I'mon and I don't.
I really am not this, not, it'snot what.
This whole podcast is about.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
So you know.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Lines are on the line yeah, exactly, exactly, hey.
Just in case you were thinkingabout having confrontation with
me, let me cut you off at thepass there.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Okay, um, please don't just at the risk of
tangenting this whole thing, Ifind the place I create the most
conflict for myself is byseeing the other person's side
and the person I'm talking with,who's complaining about them,
thinks I'm defending them.
They think I'm taking a side.
(43:36):
Right.
And that creates all kinds ofconfrontation, so like I always
preface like I'm not defendingthem.
I hear you, you think this,this and this I agree with you,
but I also imagine this personis thinking this, and they're
not entirely wrong either.
You know, it's like yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Right, yeah, but that's also a nine thing to do,
because you're trying to bringpeople together, like in.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Hey, let's find the common ground.
Where's the common?
Speaker 2 (44:00):
ground in this, like this, is I see this, can you see
this?
Okay, because, because I seethis and can you see this, yeah,
I can see that well, there's asort of a commonality that, yeah
, um, which takes we seekjustice in our own way which
takes a lot of courage too, youknow, yeah, to seek temperance.
So uh, the next one?
No, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
No, I won't be ready for temperance yeah, I don't
think so um five minutes left.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
I know I was trying to, and that's what that was.
The other thing I was going todo is, um, the uh, I'm trying to
think, oh yeah, so justice, umyeah, so anyway, I guess like to
just close that off.
That last thing is is just whenI was reading one of the
articles I just talked aboutthat being and I sort of
(44:47):
mentioned this already, but itwas that it was the um, oh okay,
uh, good quote.
Nick just sent me a quote asecond ago.
I'll read it in a second, butit that it, you know that
justice is, is a, like I said,the way that it was described is
it's like the ethics behind anydecision that's being made, and
(45:17):
so Cicero da Led what I don'tknow how to say.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
The first one, I think that's the text in which
you wrote.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Maybe it was Cicero, Okay, Cicero the good the good
of the people is the chief law.
Yeah, I mean that that sumsjustice up in the in the best
way, I would think.
And interestingly enough, though, you know that that's spoken by
somebody who's a ruler like ourleader, and you know that's
(46:00):
spoken by somebody who's a rulerlike, or a leader, and actually
, again, you know, is this ishis philosophy was like,
different than many of the otheremperors or rulers at the time,
in that he had this, you know,had a very what would I say, a
very distinct way, or verydeliberate way of making
(46:20):
decisions.
And you know, I think peoplecrave that.
I think people crave knowingwell, they like, if you knew
people, that people that makedecisions based on some level of
here's what, here's what.
I'm filtering everythingthrough, at least you can try to
track with the decision, sowhen they make a decision, you
(46:42):
can say, oh, I could see how youcould arrive at that conclusion
through these filters.
Maybe I wouldn't have arrivedat the same conclusion, but I
could see.
You know, it's easier for youto track and it's easier for you
to feel good about it, orbetter about it, even if you
disagree with it.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Yeah, the good of the people, though is a tough spot
from a pragmatic standpoint.
For one.
Cicero was assassinated andthere's a YouTube video by I
think it's CP Grey.
He does a lot of cool like hisanimations appear very simple.
(47:20):
They're generally a stickfigure.
You know like it's not aboutthe video.
It's more about the content andthe animations versus theirs to
help.
But one of the videos he's madea long time ago, like seven or
eight or more years ago, it wascalled rules for rulers.
In fact I watched it as I wasabout to become club president.
(47:43):
Oh, wow.
You know, the first time, yeah,because I was curious, right, I
wanted like, hey, what are somegood general principles for
being a leader in things?
And?
And the whole thing goes intohow, whether you're a democracy
or dictatorship, you've got tokeep the people under you happy
yeah, more so than the entirepopulace, because it's the
people, people under you, whowill take you out of your
(48:08):
position of power, whereinyou're really truly hoping to
help the people.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
And so it's like if you don't keep the generals
happy, then they will organize acoup, and so the good of the
people is a bit idealistic, um,because if you lose your power
right, then you can't help thepeople anymore right right yeah,
it's a.
(48:36):
It's a fascinating video.
I try to watch it every coupleof years just to remind myself
of some of those rules forrulers.
Yeah, yeah um.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
So here's a good quote, I guess to top that off
is uh, this is marcus aureliusfrom the meditations and says uh
, the object of life is not tobe on the side of the majority,
but to escape finding oneself inthe ranks of the insane, which
which I think is pretty muchit's.
(49:09):
That would be great.
You just don't want people tothink you're crazy or you're
with the crazy people.
Basically is hey, you know, butyou also don't necessarily need
to be the majority.
So which which I think is agood point when we're talking
about the good of the people orthe you know, we're not talking
about the majority here, atleast, based on this, they're
not talking about that is, youknow, it could be a minority,
(49:33):
but it's the best thing foreveryone.
Um, that doesn't make any sense.
But what I'm trying to get atis it doesn't have to be just by
raw numbers.
What's the best thing to do ifthat makes sense?
so sure you know, because themajority could be the insane in
this circumstance.
(49:53):
So if they're the insane, thegood of the.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
I think the good of the people isn't necessarily the
same thing as what, what thepeople want right right like
what the people want is facebook, yeah, or, or slot machines, or
yeah you know pornography likeunlimited sources of money
on-demand entertainment all thetime.
(50:18):
You know you're saying thateveryone is hedonistic.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
Is that what you're saying?
That?
That is what I inadvertentlyimplied, and maybe I'm just
projecting you know ishedonistic.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Is that what you're saying?
That is what I inadvertentlyimplied.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
And maybe I'm just projecting.
I was just saying that I'm whatpeople really want is to get
off this podcast right now andgo play video games.
That's what the people reallywant, but the quote-unquote
people they really want videogames right now.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
We're at the 50-minute mark, Brian.
I am trying to respect ouraudience's time.
They've already arrived at work.
They're waiting for you to shutup.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Right, waiting for me to shut up.
They're sitting in the car inthe parking lot like going to go
over the other two virtuestemperance and wisdom and we'll
(51:11):
probably say something, or atleast try to say something funny
while we're doing that, andtalk about some food, I think.
So that's how it goes, andthat's how that goes Bye.
Yeah, help yourself.
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