Episode Transcript
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Joy Blue (00:11):
Welcome to Here We Are.
The podcast where we celebratethe beauty of being a nerd by
learning about nerdy things fromfellow nerds.
I'm your host, Joy Blue.
I'm telling you right now.
You better sit down, buckle up,and put your listening ears on
for today's episode.
This is one of thoseconversations where I had
(00:32):
initial ideas on where it couldgo, and then I got wrapped up in
this place of glorious surpriseas this beautiful conversation
unfolded in front of me.
We are going to be diving intoconcepts that we live with every
day, but we might not alwaysconsider in the world around us.
It's abstract, yet real.
(00:55):
Practical, yet philosophical.
I am so excited.
You may even want to grabsomething to write down some
notes with.
It is that good.
So without further ado, here'smy friend Tim Wolfe to talk to
us all about agency andconformity
Tim Wolfe (01:15):
I'm Tim Wolfe.
What do you need to know aboutme?
I'm a product of the sixties andseventies in many ways.
I lived and worshiped at thefeet of my older cousins who did
all those things, right.
Some went to war, some protestedthe war, some went to Woodstock,
all of those things.
And that was when I was learningto read and loving to read.
And I was doing things likesneaking books that I shouldn't
(01:37):
have been reading at my ageunder my pillows and hiding them
around the house and all ofthat.
And so that's my roots.
I am still just by nature,predisposed to something that's
radical.
The radical has a lot moreappeal to me than safe.
I was thinking about conformitythis morning and why we value
that so much, right?
Why we like to press people toconform.
(01:59):
Whether it's gender roles,whether it's racial stereotypes,
whether it is whatever you takeyour pick, this is the way you
behave at work.
This is the way you behave athome.
This is the way.
And I look, and I think that,you know, in all the ways that
we talk, we, we, we just mask itin so many other names, right?
Whether it's religion, sometimesit's just political correctness.
(02:22):
This is thing, right.
Or it's politics.
This is what a Republican is.
And we're finding out thatnobody knows what a Republican
is.
Just like, we've not known formany years what a Democrat is,
but we still conform.
We accept these and it is this.
And I'm wondering where thatimpulse comes from.
Because if we conform, then thatmeans that somehow or another,
(02:43):
we suspect that we all haveidentical or remarkably similar
stories and we know that's nottrue.
Right?
And I know that as much assomebody may look like me and
talk like me and walk like me,that if we started parsing their
backgrounds and where thoseimpulses come from, there's just
(03:05):
no way our stories would everalign.
We might find some commonpoints, but not enough to even
connect those dots correctly.
Right.
And so I always wonder, first ofall what the purpose of
conformity is outside of justmanagement.
You know, this somebody wantingto manage someone and I don't
like to be managed.
And so that's a problem for me,but the other piece of it is, is
(03:27):
what makes us think that works.
And that's a challenge for me insome regards.
And so that pours into how youand I know one another in our
work, in the ballroom.
And you're sitting in the backof the room, kind of watching me
flounce around.
Right.
Uh, But I think that conformity,particularly in a business
(03:48):
setting, which business isreally just an extension of a
school setting, right?
So education starts conformityand on it goes.
And so we just go to work andbehave like we are at school.
And uh, still think we're wenever get outta sixth grade.
And all of this pressure to dothese things this way, just
negates the power of the storiesthat are in the room.
Joy Blue (04:09):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
I had a couple thoughts whileyou were talking about going
back to let's go like a couplecenturies ago, conformity was
acceptance, was being a part ofa tribe.
Tim Wolfe (04:21):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (04:22):
And yet we live in a society that both values
conformity and individualism,but doesn't necessarily allow
for both.
Tim Wolfe (04:30):
Right.
Right.
But even in tribalism ingenuine, authentic tribalism.
Right.
And I'm not I'm nobody'ssociologist or anthropologist.
I've studied ritual a lot.
And the interesting thing aboutauthentic tribalism and I'm not
talking about clanishnessnecessarily, is that the rights
of individualism are embedded inthe life of the tribe.
(04:54):
You see?
It's
Joy Blue (04:55):
me more about that.
Tim Wolfe (04:56):
So it is not about gross conformity that we all
look like this and do this.
The individual's contributionsand strengths, all of those
things are honored andrespected.
You can look at native Americancultures, you can look at
African cultures, even withinthe tribe, conformity, may not
even be a value in that tribe.
(05:17):
In fact, the tribes may actuallythrive on the diversity within
that tribe way of its survival.
Right?
Joy Blue (05:26):
a really good point.
Tim Wolfe (05:27):
You have shamanistic gifts, so that's your thing.
We're not gonna expect you toget up in the morning and go
work in the fields.
Cause you have growing gifts andyou are good.
This is your...
This is what you want to do.
And so, I think that in ourrhetoric obsessed society of the
present time that we sometimesembrace ideas without exploring
(05:47):
what they are.
Right.
So this is my tribe.
Well, what, who are you in yourtribe?
You're trying to point to atribe to tell me something about
you, but in a real tribe, itwould be who are you in this
tribe?
What's unique about you thatmakes you a value to this tribe?
Because a tribe's survival isreally dependent on the wealth
of its resources and that wouldrequire that everybody would
(06:08):
need to have unique gifts tobring to this.
Right.
And so that's the interestingthing.
I'm gonna flip back to theballroom again, where everybody
comes in with these presetnotions about what constitutes a
good presentation and what allyou have to do, and they're all
mimicking one another, becausethey're thinking that's what
good looks like.
And we use that phrase.
This is what good looks like.
(06:30):
I don't know what good lookslike.
What good looks like on youwould not look good on me.
And the stronger the tribe is,the more, what good looks like,
on Joy and what good looks likeon Tim not only gets respected,
it gets lifted and it gets,encouraged.
And that's a whole differentnotion.
I think.
Joy Blue (06:49):
I have so many questions popping through my
head.
Who benefits from conformity?
Tim Wolfe (06:54):
Managers.
What I call the school marms,right?
They are the ones that wanteverybody to behave a certain
kind of way, because then theycan quickly identify the
outliers and control them.
Conformity is good formanagement.
That's why when you go to theairport, they tell you what
group you're in.
And this group gets this benefitand you get to go here.
(07:17):
And it's now just conform, justget into this row.
And, I wonder what it would belike if we all got on an
airplane, we had to negotiateamong ourselves who got the
overhead compartments.
Right.
But no, this group gets this andthis group, and there's a way
that you create hierarchies inthe way that you create
management.
Right.
That's the problem.
And so now you're not living ina free world at all, but you're
(07:39):
pretending that it's free,right?
Because the assumption is thatyou can conform this way or that
way, but it's not really freebecause I'm managing you.
I'm not honoring the wholenessof whoever you are.
And so I'm not advocating youknow, anarchy.
But I just think that there's amore holistic way of looking at
these things.
And conformity really is not formy benefit at all.
(08:00):
My conformity does not help me.
It helps the people who seek tocontrol and in many ways do
control me.
Right.
Joy Blue (08:10):
That's so interesting.
On the gig that we were at lastweek, I did have a conversation
with some other people while wewere there about the concept of
free will,
Tim Wolfe (08:19):
mm-hmm
Joy Blue (08:19):
Which oddly enough, kind of dovetails into this as
well
Tim Wolfe (08:24):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (08:25):
and how free will isn't necessarily even free.
Tim Wolfe (08:27):
Right.
Joy Blue (08:29):
Because of this concept you're talking about of
conformity.
You might think you're makingyour own decision, but you're
not necessarily.
Tim Wolfe (08:38):
well, I mean, because the way the world is
constructed, there are pragmaticlimits to your free will, right?
I'll take a good example.
The people that dropped out inthe sixties, right?
That whole just, I want none ofthis.
I want none of or I want none ofthis capitalism.
(08:58):
I want none of this sexism.
I want none of this.
We're gonna go to Bixby Arizonaand live on a commune.
Joy Blue (09:04):
Yep.
Tim Wolfe (09:04):
And we're going to work the land and there are
still survival needs right now,things that mean that at a
certain point, we're gonna haveto create a social structure.
Somebody's gonna have to be theperson that makes sure we all
get up in the morning.
Somebody's gonna have to be theperson that runs the kitchen.
We have to understand there's aresponsibility that is embedded
in freedom if you're going tomaintain it.
(09:27):
And that is understanding thatme exercising, my free will
brings with it a tremendousamount of responsibility to
protect that freedom, whichmeans that I'm also gonna have
to deal with the pragmaticconstraints that I have to move
in.
Because otherwise you get thesepeople like these folks that are
living out in the wilderness,amassing guns for the big
coflagration and canned goodsand all of that, they think
(09:47):
they're living free, but thefact that they're amassing guns
and things, they're stillparticipating in an economy.
They're still participating in astructure that they are trying
to reject.
And so there's a little bit ofreality testing and maybe a
rethinking of what free will andfree choice and all those things
really are because, I think thatwe would want to go from zero to
(10:07):
90.
Oh, that means I'm notresponsible for anything except
myself.
And the problem is, but youdon't live alone, even if you
think you live alone, you don'tlive alone.
Um,
Joy Blue (10:19):
we are part of the whole,
Tim Wolfe (10:21):
yeah.
We're knitted into this.
Even the most solitary specieson the planet have to come out
of isolation to breed.
Joy Blue (10:29):
yeah.
Tim Wolfe (10:30):
And when they come into that, they come into a
reality of these other pragmaticthings that have to happen,
whether I'm a peacock and Igotta put on a fancy dance or
whether I'm a lion and I gottafight the head of the, whatever
it is, I'm suddenly thrust intosome pragmatic things.
Those things are not to beignored or resisted, they're to
(10:51):
be recognized and then say, sohow do I achieve my freedom
within sort of these pragmaticparameters.
So you're right.
Free will is not free in theidyllic sense.
I think though that a lot of us,because we don't understand that
don't pursue freedom that wouldbe satisfying and liberating.
Because we don't understand thatthere are just pragmatic
(11:14):
constraints to living a freelife.
You see what I'm saying?
One of my favorite professors inthe whole world was this
magnificent man, and anextraordinary writer, theologian
Ted Jennings who refused to becategorized.
But denomination didn't matterto him.
They didn't, They didn't knowwhat to do with him.
Gender didn't matter.
He had a lovely wife, but hewasn't particularly interested
(11:36):
in those boundaries, all ofthose things.
And yet he was very aware thathe lived in a very real and
material world that neededchanging and You cannot change
the system from without.
And so then you sit and youstart talking and he drops off
things like, well, when I wasworking with Steven Biko in
South Africa and you go what?
You know, or when Ron and I wereliving in central California,
(12:00):
working with Caesar Chavez andthe grain growers, or when I was
down in Mexico, help workingwith the, and it's like what?
And his work was really literal.
Joy Blue (12:11):
Huh.
Tim Wolfe (12:12):
But that was the way he expressed his freedom.
You see.
He went and did things to waslike, you can't do that.
And it was like, well, watchthis.
And I've tried to embrace thatin my own life.
He was like, you can't, it'slike, well, why not?
There's no reason why not.
I'm not ignoring the pragmaticconstraints, but I'm not
succumbing to them either.
Right.
And saying, okay, I know I haveto make a living and I want to
(12:33):
live well enough that I'm notpanicked about my living because
that draws too much energy awayfrom the real work I want to do.
So I'm gonna go into ballroomsand I'm going to be the best I
can be.
So people will ask me back.
That keeps the lights paid andthe walls up.
But if you ask me what my workis, I'm not gonna talk about
that because that's not where Iexperience the freedom.
(12:55):
I feel free in those spaces, Iwanna be very clear, but that's
not where I experience thefreedom of my full self, which
is over elsewhere doing kind ofcrazy radical things.
You know.
Fighting for things that I thinkneed to be fought for.
And when I was still in seminaryand I'm a second career
seminarian and I only, I've onlybeen at this for about 10 years.
(13:17):
We decided that it was a, just acrime.
Uh, What happened was a kid fromKenwood high school, my school
was in Hyde park in Chicago, kidfrom Kenwood high school got
shot.
And because he was over 17 yearsold, he could not be taken to
the pediatric level one traumacenter that the university of
Chicago medical center had.
(13:39):
He had to be taken to Strogerhospital, which in traffic and
there's no good route out thereis a, sometimes a 45 minute
drive and he died in the back ofthe ambulance.
This was at a time whenChicago's murder rate was at a
height and nobody was saying theobvious, most people are dying
in the backs of ambulances onthe south side, because there's
(13:59):
no level one trauma center onthe south side, you'd have to go
to Oak Lawn, and you gotta go tothe near west side.
You gotta come north.
And if we could stop peopledying in ambulances, the murder
rate in Chicago would plummet.
Which is what we've seen happenevery year since we finally
pressured U of C to open theirlevel one trauma center.
When that came up and the kidsfrom Kenwood high school got
(14:20):
alarmed and the kids from theuniversity of Chicago got
alarmed because I was working ina congregation that sat on that
campus, then we got alarmed andwe all got busy and got busy
working.
And that's where I felt freest.
I felt freest standing in frontof a hospital on a subzero
February day, leading a prayervigil.
I felt free there.
(14:41):
I felt free laying on thepresident's lawn to draw
attention to the fact that he'snot moving.
I felt free doing these works.
Ironically that my less freework, my professional work that
pays the bills had equipped meto do in some ways, Right.
But I also wasn't like, okay,I'm just gonna quit my job and
run off here and do this,because now I'm a liability to
(15:04):
the movement.
Am I not?
Because now somebody gotta feedme and house me and take care of
me.
So the pragmatic always in someway, will set parameters around
free will.
But freedom, is that it's adepth thing.
It's not a broad thing.
It's how deeply free am I?
How free am I to get up and notworry about what anybody thinks,
(15:26):
cuz I'm gonna go do this, andthen bring that back to my
professional life or my familylife or my social life and hand
it to folks and say, I expectyou to be proud of this.
Joy Blue (15:36):
Hmm.
Tim Wolfe (15:37):
And that's the shamelessness that comes with
real freedom.
And it's, this is what I do.
Think what you will, I'm notembarrassed about it.
This is what I do.
Joy Blue (15:48):
I'm trying to make sure I heard you right.
There's so much in what you justsaid.
And I think what I heard you saywas and this is something I've
been working with a lot, like.
It's adjacent to free will, butthe concept of agency.
Of I have the ability to makedecisions for myself.
I have the right to advocate formyself and because I belong to
(16:09):
myself, I can then reach out anduse whatever resources I have
for the benefit around me.
Tim Wolfe (16:19):
Right.
Joy Blue (16:20):
And so what I heard you say was a version of that.
Tim Wolfe (16:24):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (16:25):
Of like somewhere along the journey, all along the
journey, you've figured out howto use the resources at your
disposal to figure out how tolive, to use a Glennon Doyle
word, like your most true, mostbeautiful life.
Tim Wolfe (16:41):
is not always beautiful.
and sometimes is it doesn't evenfeel true, right?
I don't wanna paint such a rosyidealistic picture to suggest
that there are not moments ofprofound doubt, there are not
moments of sorrow.
There are people that that Ihave loved who when I decided
that I was not going to botheranymore with shielding them from
(17:06):
my true self, they walked away.
And the interesting thing, whenpeople abandon you, and they
will, people will abandon you,whether it's in relationships or
friendships or professionally,they'll abandon you.
And the weirdness about that forme was never that my feelings
were hurt, that they walked awaybecause that's their right and
go ahead.
Joy Blue (17:26):
sure.
Tim Wolfe (17:27):
but I always felt stupid
Joy Blue (17:28):
Mm
Tim Wolfe (17:28):
Because it was always like, why didn't I realize that
what I thought was going on hereprobably was not going on.
The love that I thought that wehad was a love I had.
Why was I not smart enough tosee?
Why did I trust them so much toexpect them to bank this curve
that I've just thrown with them?
How did I miss that?
(17:49):
You cannot live as freely as youcan without offending people,
because people want you to dowhat they want you to do.
And whenever it turns out thatyou're bursting the seams that
they've tried to sew you in,that becomes a problem for them.
Because now you're creatingdisorder in their lives.
Joy Blue (18:07):
And now we're back to conformity,
Tim Wolfe (18:09):
So that's why you need, just don't make waves.
Joy Blue (18:12):
right?
Tim Wolfe (18:12):
The whole supremacist thing survives on the fear of
making waves.
That's the whole thing.
and I'm not talking about justracial supremacy, I'm talking
about gender supremacy.
Any time that a group tries totake Supreme authority over
something, the expectation isthat nobody will buck them, you
know, and nobody will complainbecause complaining will get you
(18:34):
in trouble.
And it's I'm already in trouble.
Joy Blue (18:38):
right.
And if, yeah, if you're introuble, then you're not a part
of the group, which means you'rea loner, which means.
Tim Wolfe (18:44):
Right.
And now take whatever name youwant to take from high school.
Like now you're a geek.
Now you're a nerd.
Now you've got cooties, if youwanna go back to the first or
second grade now, now you'reostracized.
You're marginalized.
We've got all these fancy wordsthat mean the same thing.
But in the end, you were alreadyin trouble before they kicked
you to the curb.
Because You were having tosurrender a part of yourself to
(19:06):
be part of something thatdoesn't want all of you.
Joy Blue (19:10):
So, Where can you be all of you?
Tim Wolfe (19:13):
You just have to make that space and pay the price for
making that space.
Joy Blue (19:18):
So am I hearing you right that?
How do I say this?
There's a, I think there's apart of everybody that is
looking to be able to be fullythemselves everywhere they go.
There is a narrative I grew upwith of you should be the same
person, every in every situationyou're in.
But what I've heard you say isthere is a work you, there is a
(19:40):
You in relationship, there's ayou in activism, there's a you
in the pastorship that you'rein.
Is that being inauthentic?
I don't feel like that's beinginauthentic.
Tim Wolfe (19:52):
because this is the difference.
One size fits all is not the waythat it works.
You bring who you are to thoseexperiences.
They're all consistent with whoyou are, but the way that you
engage them is different.
The passions that bubble up overhere...
Joy Blue (20:06):
Mm.
Tim Wolfe (20:06):
you know, uh, That kind of stuff.
Now I'll give you a goodexample.
I come from a Southern family.
I also come from a very strict,fundamentalist family, right?
So there's all that stuff.
And every so often there is thesummons to come south and
everybody's getting together andit's usually at my mama's house
and there's always a big dinner.
And Now, there I sit at thistable and unapologetically
(20:33):
queer,
Joy Blue (20:33):
mm-hmm
Tim Wolfe (20:34):
emphatically Christian,
Joy Blue (20:37):
mm-hmm
Tim Wolfe (20:38):
Fully engaged professional person who expects
respect on all those fronts.
And I sit there among all ofthese people who are very
nervous about that wholejuxtaposition.
Right.
Okay.
Because in their minds Ishouldn't be successful because
I'm out of sync with this, that,or the other.
Right.
(20:58):
You see I'm saying?
also.
Joy Blue (20:59):
the conformity lines
Tim Wolfe (21:00):
Yeah, I'm also opted to live up north.
I also have opted to live with aman of African American
heritage, right.
So they can't check one of theirboxes with me and it makes them
very uncomfortable because theminute they check one, it, the
next one is out.
So again, this conversation andthey like to always rip me about
this, that, and the other.
And they're talking about stuffin Chicago and making all these
generalities and they starttalking about a very prominent
(21:23):
Chicagoan and an activist.
Who's a good friend of mine.
I just said, you need to stopthere.
I don't let people talk about myfriends.
Joy Blue (21:28):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (21:30):
it's just what you're saying just shows how little'you
know about him.
So you're gonna have to leavethat alone.
And uh, he's also an AfricanAmerican and my cousin had a
daughter who had a boyfriend wasthere and he was just going to
decide to hold court there.
This was his went through thiswhole thing about, I just don't
see what all the big deal isabout all of these black folks
(21:52):
being upset.
Anyway, I don't understand
Joy Blue (21:54):
Mm.
Tim Wolfe (21:55):
In, and of course already my blood goes up right.
And then he says, my great,great grandfather came over from
Scotland and he pulled himselfup by his bootstraps and he He
worked hard and he createdwealth that has kept our family
secure.
And I just don't understand whythat's so impossible for them.
(22:16):
Now.
The well bred, rich Southern boythat I grew up, the Southern
grandson, my grandparents andgreat grandparents were well off
people.
I don't mean rich, like incurrent today's sense, but yeah,
we had, we net worth.
That kid was supposed to just bepolite to the day to guest
Joy Blue (22:32):
yep.
Tim Wolfe (22:33):
and let that go.
Joy Blue (22:35):
Right?
Tim Wolfe (22:36):
The justice kid in me is like, you know, what you
really wanna do is fly acrossthis table and slap some sense
into this guy.
So that's not gonna be an optioneither, but that's the way that
goes.
Then the um, husband of anAfrican American is deeply
wounded and offended by thisbecause I have had had a front
row to the struggle, and sothere's that.
(22:58):
Then the Christian in me has acertain reaction.
All of these.
All of these people willconverge in these settings.
That's where trying to get to.
Right.
So it's not like you're beinginauthentic, who you are.
It's not like you're being adifferent person.
You, what you're doing is youare you're modulating the whole
court of who you are to fit themoment.
(23:20):
Right?
So I just look at him and I justsaid, well, first of all, I
think I, it looks like she likesyou a whole lot.
You may be wind up being a partof the family.
We're not dumb people.
And I want you to stop tellingpeople that, talking about
people pulling themselves up bytheir bootstraps because that's
a physical impossibility.
You should try it.
If you try to pull yourself upby your boot straps, you'll tip
forward.
(23:41):
can never do that.
So don't use that metaphoragain.
It's a false metaphor.
But second of all, I just haveone question about your great
grandfather, Shamus or Willie orwhatever his name was.
Joy Blue (23:51):
mm-hmm
Tim Wolfe (23:52):
Did he buy a ticket?
And he just looked at me at meand said, what do you mean?
I said, when he got on the boatto come over here and build this
life that you are enjoying now,buy a ticket?
and he said, well, I, I guessso.
And I said, yeah see, myhusband's ancestors didn't buy a
ticket.
Joy Blue (24:13):
Mmm.
Tim Wolfe (24:15):
They didn't choose to come over here.
They weren't given an option tofind work.
They were put to work.
And so to compare them to yourgreat granddady Willie.
Joy Blue (24:27):
Yep.
Tim Wolfe (24:29):
It's a false comparison and it's an unjust
comparison and it only shows howlittle consideration you've
given this topic.
So from now on maybe, well,however you do away from here.
I don't care, but when you're atthis table, I really need you to
bring good thought that showsthat you've really thought about
this.
And you're just not repeatingwhat you've heard in barbershops
and other places where peopledon't know what they're talking
(24:51):
about.
Joy Blue (24:51):
Right,
Tim Wolfe (24:53):
And the whole family just sort of did this and then
they changed the subject.
But it was like, because I wasthere being the dutiful son did
not mean I shut all that otherstuff down.
It's just, I don't need to leadwith all that other stuff all
the time.
You see what I'm saying?
It's kind of, and no, I don'tthink that it's being an
(25:13):
authentic at all to go in undera different sort of persona's
too strong, a word under adifferent sort of level of
engagement.
You just don't leave the rest ofyourself out.
Joy Blue (25:25):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (25:26):
I've been with presenters in a ballroom and
they've said da, da, da, da.
And it's like, you know what?
I don't think you wanna saythat.
Because I don't think you, youhave a full grasp of what that
means and how people in youraudience are gonna hear it.
Joy Blue (25:40):
right,
Tim Wolfe (25:40):
does that mean?
Let me explain this to you.
If I'm a woman of color in theaudience, what you just said
hits me a certain kind of wayyou, as a white male with a lot
of privilege might have not notunderstand.
Right, I've got fired from jobsfor that sometimes.
And it's well, that's fine, cuzwe weren't gonna work together
well anyway.
So I don't think you leaveyourself ever out of where you
(26:02):
are, but it doesn't mean thatyou always have to come in with
a Mack truck and dump all of youinto that situation.
A lot of that is just back therewithin your reach if you need
it.
Joy Blue (26:12):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (26:13):
I had the joy of sitting with Bella Abzog when I
was in undergrad.
I got to spend the time withquite a few people in my
undergrad years that were prettyphenomenal
Joy Blue (26:22):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (26:23):
and Abzog was one of them.
And I, what always appreciatedabout her was here, she's this
radical feminist, east coast,died in the hide liberal
Democrat, who could sit atdinner and just laugh and joke
and ask about your family andall these kinds of things and
never, ever go into agenda work.
(26:45):
Right?
Joy Blue (26:46):
Mm.
Tim Wolfe (26:46):
And then whenever you were standing next to her and
she was on a full on 100%feminist rant, the legitimacy of
her words was born out by theauthenticity that you experience
of her not being the activist,but just being yourself.
Joy Blue (27:04):
It's all looping back around.
So we started with the conceptof conformity.
And we've gone through a littlebit of a journey of talking
about how that applies ordoesn't apply in different
regions, in different settings.
We've talked a little bit aboutagency.
We've talked about essentiallyhow to be comfortable within
yourself with all of thesedifferent parts of you and how
(27:27):
to be, I guess, kind of streetwise enough to be able to call
forward different parts of youto be the most authentic version
of you at a certain place intime and to hold true to who you
are and not necessarily conform,just because that's, what's
expected of you.
Did I sum that up well?
Tim Wolfe (27:48):
That's beautiful.
The pressures to conformityoften have great intentions.
Right.
What I'm seeing today in ourcurrent culture are a lot of
people who are, how can I sayit, wanting to press their own
sort of higher consciousness,they wanna lead with that.
(28:09):
And that's what you draw from.
That's not what you lead with.
Right.
Because in the end, people aregoing to test you and they're
going to reflect on what yourstory is.
That's goes back to story,right?
I've got a really good friendwho, one day out of nowhere,
just announced that he and hiswife had decided that they were
gonna become vegans.
(28:29):
Because it's, are you concernedabout health?
What is, I wanna just know whatthis is.
Joy Blue (28:34):
right.
Tim Wolfe (28:35):
And um, no, it's because of the environment.
And we all know the whole thingwith the methane and the cows
this.
Right.
Well, they became very avidvegans to the point that was
pretty much all they wanted totalk about.
And it was sort of like, ohLord, okay.
I would really just like to knowwhether or not you think
Beyonce's gonna last through thenext, you know, you know.
Could we talk about somethingelse?
(28:56):
Right.
And then they became avid veganswho needed to try every vegan
restaurant in the world.
Right.
And so now they are flying toIceland and they're flying to
Mexico and they're flying to SanFrancisco and they're telling me
where the greatest veganrestaurants and, and it's like,
how are you getting there?
Joy Blue (29:15):
yeah.
Tim Wolfe (29:16):
And it's like, so cow farts aren't good.
But plane travel is
Joy Blue (29:23):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (29:24):
And that's the challenge I think we have
whenever we try to attachsignificance to these moves, as
opposed to realizing I'm justsorting it out.
And whenever your views becomethe imperative that everyone
else must meet and obey andhonor in the room, then the
people who really, and I saythis all the time, the folks who
(29:45):
need agency, the folks who needrecognition, the unheard voices
cannot be heard if all of theseprivileged folks are draping
themselves in all these causesand making this noise.
Because now we just got chaos,you know, it's like have a
hamburger, stay off a plane.
(30:06):
How's that?
Try that.
It is this notion of how thingsquickly become confused with all
the virtue signaling and all ofthis kind of and all of these
realities.
And in the end it's like, let'sgo back to the tribe.
What are your gifts?
What are your strengths?
What can you do that strengthensthe whole?
Joy Blue (30:26):
Right.
Tim Wolfe (30:27):
but a lot of this stuff lately to me seems almost
narcissistic, right?
This is just how I am.
This is the wholeness I found.
This is the way I am and da, da,da, da, da.
And it's not functional.
Joy Blue (30:38):
right.
It's individualistic instead of
Tim Wolfe (30:40):
There you go.
Thank
Joy Blue (30:41):
Being Part of a whole
Tim Wolfe (30:43):
Right.
And so what does this mean?
does this benefit?
Not just me, but benefit us.
What does this do?
Joy Blue (30:50):
It's acknowledging that my actions have ripple
effects.
Tim Wolfe (30:53):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (30:54):
not just me.
It's like what you were saying.
Yeah, it's good for you.
If that's what you want to do.
Sure.
Go be vegan.
That's great.
also acknowledge that that doeshave ripple effects in a lot of
different ways.
Tim Wolfe (31:09):
yeah.
Right.
There are all those things thatneed to be taken into
consideration.
And I'm very proud of youngpeople and their concerns.
I'm also concerned that theythink being concerned is the end
game and it's not
Joy Blue (31:26):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (31:27):
all right.
Those concerns should lead youto some kind of recognition of
something within you that makesyou useful to the greater whole.
If we are all just sitting inour cubicles and I'm using that
metaphorically being ultra awareand ultra, you know, this and
(31:47):
ultra that and are doing all ofthose kinds of things, and not
understanding that it's acommunity.
And that means it's a reallyuneven and it's jagged and
you're gonna bump your head inthe low places and you're gonna
get overwhelmed in the highplaces.
But you're in the community.
Joy Blue (32:06):
Right.
Tim Wolfe (32:07):
And so I think that's where agency is so important
because it is not just what Ican do for my own betterment.
That may be the beginning, cuzthat's the lens through which I
understand the world.
But then when I see people likeme...
what drove the whole aidsactivism thing that ultimately
changed the way America looks atsame gender loving people.
What drove that was the horrorof able bodied, well men and
(32:33):
women, and especially samegender loving women to act on
behalf of those because throughtheir own lens, they understood.
You see.
What this meant, and theyunderstood that this is a
horribly random situation thatis perpetuated by isolation and
marginalization.
And so we gotta break the wholemother down.
(32:54):
It's all gotta be broke down.
We've got to pull into themainstream.
Now what I also on the otherside now is now that we've
fought for this and it's been 50years no movement has ever made
so much success in so short oftime, here we are.
And in the middle of that, now,people.
Now we gotta go back and reclaimall these queer spaces and it's
like, okay, well, what were wedoing?
Joy Blue (33:13):
Right.
Tim Wolfe (33:14):
So now we're gonna go back in the tent and we're gonna
hunker down and be all ourselvesagain, until we get in trouble.
And then what are we gonna do?
You can't do that.
Your individual agency is notthe end.
It's to propel you to use thatagency on behalf of others.
Whether you're modeling it,whether you're actually acting
(33:37):
against it, whatever it is,because there's somebody behind
you,
Joy Blue (33:42):
yeah.
Tim Wolfe (33:43):
either generationally or in terms of resources,
there's somebody behind you.
And I see this when I'm infundraisers and that kind of
stuff who have everything in theworld that you could possibly
imagine and are still talking tome about their anxieties and
about how they just can't getalong in the world and they're
glassy eyed from all thepharmaceuticals they're taking
(34:04):
and all of this is going on.
And then you say, what are youdoing outside of tending to
yourself?
And at the same time they wannalet you know how cool it is and
how grateful they are and howimpressed they are that my
husband and I have been togetherfor 30 years.
And how cool it is that we're aninterracial gay couple.
And they're just all acceptingof that.
In fact, that probably gets uson a lot of dinner party lists.
Joy Blue (34:25):
Mm,
Tim Wolfe (34:26):
But in the end it's what are you doing with what
you've been given?
Joy Blue (34:29):
Right, to sum that up beautifully, like we did start
with the concept of conformityand now it's all coming to head
and talking about, yeah, youdon't have to be what everybody
expects you to be.
And it's so important to knowwho you are to know what your
strengths are in the world toacknowledge you can't do
(34:49):
everything, but you have beengiven enough tools to be the
goodness that you are.
So now that you are good in whoyou are, because you exist,
because of who you are, now youhave the opportunity to then go
and propel forward goodness forothers.
Because we are a part, are apart of a bigger spectrum.
(35:13):
And in pushing forward, I lovewhat you said.
There are people behind you.
There are people that you aremaking spaces of belonging for
because you are being fullyyourself in these spaces and not
necessarily conforming to whatis expected of you.
Tim Wolfe (35:32):
Yeah.
I mean, I don't apologizewherever I may be for who I am.
Right.
And whether it's in a corporatearena or a religious arena or a
social arena, if you are notcomfortable around me, then you
know how to excuse yourself.
Joy Blue (35:45):
Right,
Tim Wolfe (35:46):
that's not my job to make that's different than
hospitality.
Hospitality is throwing open myarms and saying, I'm all of
this.
Come on and get whatever youneed,
Joy Blue (35:53):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (35:54):
but me running around and you make people
uncomfortable.
Yeah.
That's not my problem.
So
Joy Blue (36:00):
They also have the agency to leave.
Tim Wolfe (36:02):
that's what I'm saying.
It's like, you know, if it's toomuch walk away I just on Sunday
saw The Woman King.
Have you seen it yet the ViolaDavis movie?
It's a wonderful movie in manyrespects.
I started life as a film critic.
And someone grew up loving filmsand loving movies that now I
look back and I just cringe likeKing Solomon's minds, these kind
movies, Gungadin oh, he's anoble soul because he took the
(36:23):
bullet, you know, what?, youknow, that kind of stuff.
Right.
And I hate that I've lost thosefilms to a certain extent
because they have a verysentimental value to me.
And at the same time I can'thave them.
Right.
That's just the case and whatthe woman king does is really
quite marvelous cause it takes,what is that same kind of
adventure movie set in Africawith all of this cultural stuff.
(36:47):
And it legitimizes all of thatas a conflict between tribes on
the continent in which the whiteinterloper is actually creating
problems.
Right?
so there's a very interestingway that they play this all out.
It's based on historical truthand the kingdom of Dahomey,
there was a group of womenwarriors and in some ways it's
almost like a military trainingfilm.
(37:09):
We're gonna teach these youngwomen how to be warriors.
And they go to this test andit's very interesting to me
before they get to the combatportion of the test, they have
to run through a Bramble ofthistles.
Joy Blue (37:23):
Mm.
Tim Wolfe (37:24):
And they get cut up, and the scenes after they
succeed are of pulling thesethistles out that they've
acquired just to get into thefight.
Joy Blue (37:34):
Mm.
Tim Wolfe (37:34):
And I love that and it made my heart race a little
bit, because I think there'ssome truth there that you can't
just jump into the fight andstart taking the heads off of
the enemies to whatever it isthat you're fighting.
You gotta go through thebrambles.
Joy Blue (37:49):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (37:50):
take, you gotta take the thorns and you gotta let
your flesh get torn and yougotta suffer some before you get
to the real fight.
And I see so many peoplethinking that there's a
workaround for that and there'sjust not.
Joy Blue (38:03):
yeah.
Tim Wolfe (38:03):
And at one point Viola Davis says your flesh is
going to be scarred.
You're going to have all kindsof scars, but that's your
credentials.
That's your cred.
Joy Blue (38:13):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (38:15):
And I think in fighting conformity, in looking
to live free it's, as I saidbefore, freedom is a deep thing.
It's not a broad thing.
And the deeper you go in tryingto really experience and
understand freedom, the morebrambles you gotta run through.
You gotta have to go throughsome of that and you're gonna,
you're gonna get scarred andyou're gonna get hurt and it's
(38:36):
gonna be painful.
But you can't just read a booklike after George Floyd,
everybody started reading thesebooks.
And now you're not a racistanymore?
Yeah that's not how this works.
Okay.
So many of my active oldactivist friends will say
freedom ain't free and that'sthe way it works.
So.
(38:56):
If you don't want to live aconformist life, you have to
take the beating that comes toget into that.
And then after a while you justdon't feel the pain anymore
because it's,"child I've beenthrough worse." you know, it's
okay.
Whatever.
You take that and you run withit, I gotta go.
And so that's sort of the waythat I get into that.
Anyway.
Joy Blue (39:16):
Tim.
This has been a wonderfulconversation.
Tim Wolfe (39:19):
Thanks for the opportunity.
I don't get to sit down and talkabout this very often.
It's just sort of do you know,I'm in it, but thank you.
Joy Blue (39:26):
I, I have loved this so much, and I'm so grateful for
you giving me a little bit ofyour time and your thoughts.
Tim Wolfe (39:33):
Well, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Joy Blue (39:36):
So Here We Are.
Wow.
We covered so much ground in 38minutes.
Here are some of the majortakeaways for me.
This first one is pertinentbecause I personally do
everything I can to not quote,get in trouble.
Tim Wolfe (39:56):
But in the end, you were already in trouble before
they kicked you to the curb.
Because You were having tosurrender a part of yourself to
be part of something thatdoesn't want all of you.
Joy Blue (40:11):
The choice is being who you want me to be, but
sacrificing who I am.
Or being who I am andsacrificing who you want me to
be.
If I've learned anything thisyear, it's that I'm choosing me.
This next one hit me deep aswell.
Tim Wolfe (40:28):
You gotta take the thorns and you gotta let your
flesh get torn and you gottasuffer some before you get to
the real fight.
Joy Blue (40:36):
I hope you'll take time to sit with the parts of
this interview that poked at youand brought up potentially
uncomfortable feelings.
Where have you conformed ratherthan stayed true to yourself?
I have so much to think about,and I hope you'll join me in
processing this interview aswell.
Once again, thank you so muchfor coming and sharing your
process with us, Tim.
(40:57):
I hope this is only thebeginning of curious
conversations we'll havetogether.
If you've got a flavor of nerdthat you want me to celebrate, I
would love to hear all about it.
So go ahead and email me atherewearethepodcast@gmail.com
and tell me everything.
I love taking time to sit andmake space for nerd to be
celebrated.
If you really liked this podcastand what I financially support
(41:18):
what I'm doing, head on over toPatreon.com search for Here We
Are the podcast and sign up forone of the many beautifully
written support tiers that I'mreally proud of.
I would just like to announcethat for the first time ever in
Here We Are history, I have asponsor in the holy guacamole
tier.
John Marovich, thank you.
Not only for letting meinterview you, but for believing
(41:41):
in me and for being holyguacamole.
So until next time don't forgetthat curiosity wins and the
world needs more nerds.
Bye
Welcome to Here We Are.
The podcast where we celebratethe beauty of being a nerd by
learning about nerdy things fromfellow nerds.
I'm your host, Joy Blue.
I'm telling you right now.
You better sit down, buckle up,and put your listening ears on
for today's episode.
This is one of thoseconversations where I had
(00:32):
initial ideas on where it couldgo, and then I got wrapped up in
this place of glorious surpriseas this beautiful conversation
unfolded in front of me.
We are going to be diving intoconcepts that we live with every
day, but we might not alwaysconsider in the world around us.
It's abstract, yet real.
(00:55):
Practical, yet philosophical.
I am so excited.
You may even want to grabsomething to write down some
notes with.
It is that good.
So without further ado, here'smy friend Tim Wolfe to talk to
us all about agency andconformity
Tim Wolfe (01:15):
I'm Tim Wolfe.
What do you need to know aboutme?
I'm a product of the sixties andseventies in many ways.
I lived and worshiped at thefeet of my older cousins who did
all those things, right.
Some went to war, some protestedthe war, some went to Woodstock,
all of those things.
And that was when I was learningto read and loving to read.
And I was doing things likesneaking books that I shouldn't
(01:37):
have been reading at my ageunder my pillows and hiding them
around the house and all ofthat.
And so that's my roots.
I am still just by nature,predisposed to something that's
radical.
The radical has a lot moreappeal to me than safe.
I was thinking about conformitythis morning and why we value
that so much, right?
Why we like to press people toconform.
(01:59):
Whether it's gender roles,whether it's racial stereotypes,
whether it is whatever you takeyour pick, this is the way you
behave at work.
This is the way you behave athome.
This is the way.
And I look, and I think that,you know, in all the ways that
we talk, we, we, we just mask itin so many other names, right?
Whether it's religion, sometimesit's just political correctness.
(02:22):
This is thing, right.
Or it's politics.
This is what a Republican is.
And we're finding out thatnobody knows what a Republican
is.
Just like, we've not known formany years what a Democrat is,
but we still conform.
We accept these and it is this.
And I'm wondering where thatimpulse comes from.
Because if we conform, then thatmeans that somehow or another,
(02:43):
we suspect that we all haveidentical or remarkably similar
stories and we know that's nottrue.
Right?
And I know that as much assomebody may look like me and
talk like me and walk like me,that if we started parsing their
backgrounds and where thoseimpulses come from, there's just
(03:05):
no way our stories would everalign.
We might find some commonpoints, but not enough to even
connect those dots correctly.
Right.
And so I always wonder, first ofall what the purpose of
conformity is outside of justmanagement.
You know, this somebody wantingto manage someone and I don't
like to be managed.
And so that's a problem for me,but the other piece of it is, is
(03:27):
what makes us think that works.
And that's a challenge for me insome regards.
And so that pours into how youand I know one another in our
work, in the ballroom.
And you're sitting in the backof the room, kind of watching me
flounce around.
Right.
Uh, But I think that conformity,particularly in a business
(03:48):
setting, which business isreally just an extension of a
school setting, right?
So education starts conformityand on it goes.
And so we just go to work andbehave like we are at school.
And uh, still think we're wenever get outta sixth grade.
And all of this pressure to dothese things this way, just
negates the power of the storiesthat are in the room.
Joy Blue (04:09):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
I had a couple thoughts whileyou were talking about going
back to let's go like a couplecenturies ago, conformity was
acceptance, was being a part ofa tribe.
Tim Wolfe (04:21):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (04:22):
And yet we live in a society that both values
conformity and individualism,but doesn't necessarily allow
for both.
Tim Wolfe (04:30):
Right.
Right.
But even in tribalism ingenuine, authentic tribalism.
Right.
And I'm not I'm nobody'ssociologist or anthropologist.
I've studied ritual a lot.
And the interesting thing aboutauthentic tribalism and I'm not
talking about clanishnessnecessarily, is that the rights
of individualism are embedded inthe life of the tribe.
(04:54):
You see?
It's
Joy Blue (04:55):
me more about that.
Tim Wolfe (04:56):
So it is not about gross conformity that we all
look like this and do this.
The individual's contributionsand strengths, all of those
things are honored andrespected.
You can look at native Americancultures, you can look at
African cultures, even withinthe tribe, conformity, may not
even be a value in that tribe.
(05:17):
In fact, the tribes may actuallythrive on the diversity within
that tribe way of its survival.
Right?
Joy Blue (05:26):
a really good point.
Tim Wolfe (05:27):
You have shamanistic gifts, so that's your thing.
We're not gonna expect you toget up in the morning and go
work in the fields.
Cause you have growing gifts andyou are good.
This is your...
This is what you want to do.
And so, I think that in ourrhetoric obsessed society of the
present time that we sometimesembrace ideas without exploring
(05:47):
what they are.
Right.
So this is my tribe.
Well, what, who are you in yourtribe?
You're trying to point to atribe to tell me something about
you, but in a real tribe, itwould be who are you in this
tribe?
What's unique about you thatmakes you a value to this tribe?
Because a tribe's survival isreally dependent on the wealth
of its resources and that wouldrequire that everybody would
(06:08):
need to have unique gifts tobring to this.
Right.
And so that's the interestingthing.
I'm gonna flip back to theballroom again, where everybody
comes in with these presetnotions about what constitutes a
good presentation and what allyou have to do, and they're all
mimicking one another, becausethey're thinking that's what
good looks like.
And we use that phrase.
This is what good looks like.
(06:30):
I don't know what good lookslike.
What good looks like on youwould not look good on me.
And the stronger the tribe is,the more, what good looks like,
on Joy and what good looks likeon Tim not only gets respected,
it gets lifted and it gets,encouraged.
And that's a whole differentnotion.
I think.
Joy Blue (06:49):
I have so many questions popping through my
head.
Who benefits from conformity?
Tim Wolfe (06:54):
Managers.
What I call the school marms,right?
They are the ones that wanteverybody to behave a certain
kind of way, because then theycan quickly identify the
outliers and control them.
Conformity is good formanagement.
That's why when you go to theairport, they tell you what
group you're in.
And this group gets this benefitand you get to go here.
(07:17):
And it's now just conform, justget into this row.
And, I wonder what it would belike if we all got on an
airplane, we had to negotiateamong ourselves who got the
overhead compartments.
Right.
But no, this group gets this andthis group, and there's a way
that you create hierarchies inthe way that you create
management.
Right.
That's the problem.
And so now you're not living ina free world at all, but you're
(07:39):
pretending that it's free,right?
Because the assumption is thatyou can conform this way or that
way, but it's not really freebecause I'm managing you.
I'm not honoring the wholenessof whoever you are.
And so I'm not advocating youknow, anarchy.
But I just think that there's amore holistic way of looking at
these things.
And conformity really is not formy benefit at all.
(08:00):
My conformity does not help me.
It helps the people who seek tocontrol and in many ways do
control me.
Right.
Joy Blue (08:10):
That's so interesting.
On the gig that we were at lastweek, I did have a conversation
with some other people while wewere there about the concept of
free will,
Tim Wolfe (08:19):
mm-hmm
Joy Blue (08:19):
Which oddly enough, kind of dovetails into this as
well
Tim Wolfe (08:24):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (08:25):
and how free will isn't necessarily even free.
Tim Wolfe (08:27):
Right.
Joy Blue (08:29):
Because of this concept you're talking about of
conformity.
You might think you're makingyour own decision, but you're
not necessarily.
Tim Wolfe (08:38):
well, I mean, because the way the world is
constructed, there are pragmaticlimits to your free will, right?
I'll take a good example.
The people that dropped out inthe sixties, right?
That whole just, I want none ofthis.
I want none of or I want none ofthis capitalism.
(08:58):
I want none of this sexism.
I want none of this.
We're gonna go to Bixby Arizonaand live on a commune.
Joy Blue (09:04):
Yep.
Tim Wolfe (09:04):
And we're going to work the land and there are
still survival needs right now,things that mean that at a
certain point, we're gonna haveto create a social structure.
Somebody's gonna have to be theperson that makes sure we all
get up in the morning.
Somebody's gonna have to be theperson that runs the kitchen.
We have to understand there's aresponsibility that is embedded
in freedom if you're going tomaintain it.
(09:27):
And that is understanding thatme exercising, my free will
brings with it a tremendousamount of responsibility to
protect that freedom, whichmeans that I'm also gonna have
to deal with the pragmaticconstraints that I have to move
in.
Because otherwise you get thesepeople like these folks that are
living out in the wilderness,amassing guns for the big
coflagration and canned goodsand all of that, they think
(09:47):
they're living free, but thefact that they're amassing guns
and things, they're stillparticipating in an economy.
They're still participating in astructure that they are trying
to reject.
And so there's a little bit ofreality testing and maybe a
rethinking of what free will andfree choice and all those things
really are because, I think thatwe would want to go from zero to
(10:07):
90.
Oh, that means I'm notresponsible for anything except
myself.
And the problem is, but youdon't live alone, even if you
think you live alone, you don'tlive alone.
Um,
Joy Blue (10:19):
we are part of the whole,
Tim Wolfe (10:21):
yeah.
We're knitted into this.
Even the most solitary specieson the planet have to come out
of isolation to breed.
Joy Blue (10:29):
yeah.
Tim Wolfe (10:30):
And when they come into that, they come into a
reality of these other pragmaticthings that have to happen,
whether I'm a peacock and Igotta put on a fancy dance or
whether I'm a lion and I gottafight the head of the, whatever
it is, I'm suddenly thrust intosome pragmatic things.
Those things are not to beignored or resisted, they're to
(10:51):
be recognized and then say, sohow do I achieve my freedom
within sort of these pragmaticparameters.
So you're right.
Free will is not free in theidyllic sense.
I think though that a lot of us,because we don't understand that
don't pursue freedom that wouldbe satisfying and liberating.
Because we don't understand thatthere are just pragmatic
(11:14):
constraints to living a freelife.
You see what I'm saying?
One of my favorite professors inthe whole world was this
magnificent man, and anextraordinary writer, theologian
Ted Jennings who refused to becategorized.
But denomination didn't matterto him.
They didn't, They didn't knowwhat to do with him.
Gender didn't matter.
He had a lovely wife, but hewasn't particularly interested
(11:36):
in those boundaries, all ofthose things.
And yet he was very aware thathe lived in a very real and
material world that neededchanging and You cannot change
the system from without.
And so then you sit and youstart talking and he drops off
things like, well, when I wasworking with Steven Biko in
South Africa and you go what?
You know, or when Ron and I wereliving in central California,
(12:00):
working with Caesar Chavez andthe grain growers, or when I was
down in Mexico, help workingwith the, and it's like what?
And his work was really literal.
Joy Blue (12:11):
Huh.
Tim Wolfe (12:12):
But that was the way he expressed his freedom.
You see.
He went and did things to waslike, you can't do that.
And it was like, well, watchthis.
And I've tried to embrace thatin my own life.
He was like, you can't, it'slike, well, why not?
There's no reason why not.
I'm not ignoring the pragmaticconstraints, but I'm not
succumbing to them either.
Right.
And saying, okay, I know I haveto make a living and I want to
(12:33):
live well enough that I'm notpanicked about my living because
that draws too much energy awayfrom the real work I want to do.
So I'm gonna go into ballroomsand I'm going to be the best I
can be.
So people will ask me back.
That keeps the lights paid andthe walls up.
But if you ask me what my workis, I'm not gonna talk about
that because that's not where Iexperience the freedom.
(12:55):
I feel free in those spaces, Iwanna be very clear, but that's
not where I experience thefreedom of my full self, which
is over elsewhere doing kind ofcrazy radical things.
You know.
Fighting for things that I thinkneed to be fought for.
And when I was still in seminaryand I'm a second career
seminarian and I only, I've onlybeen at this for about 10 years.
(13:17):
We decided that it was a, just acrime.
Uh, What happened was a kid fromKenwood high school, my school
was in Hyde park in Chicago, kidfrom Kenwood high school got
shot.
And because he was over 17 yearsold, he could not be taken to
the pediatric level one traumacenter that the university of
Chicago medical center had.
(13:39):
He had to be taken to Strogerhospital, which in traffic and
there's no good route out thereis a, sometimes a 45 minute
drive and he died in the back ofthe ambulance.
This was at a time whenChicago's murder rate was at a
height and nobody was saying theobvious, most people are dying
in the backs of ambulances onthe south side, because there's
(13:59):
no level one trauma center onthe south side, you'd have to go
to Oak Lawn, and you gotta go tothe near west side.
You gotta come north.
And if we could stop peopledying in ambulances, the murder
rate in Chicago would plummet.
Which is what we've seen happenevery year since we finally
pressured U of C to open theirlevel one trauma center.
When that came up and the kidsfrom Kenwood high school got
(14:20):
alarmed and the kids from theuniversity of Chicago got
alarmed because I was working ina congregation that sat on that
campus, then we got alarmed andwe all got busy and got busy
working.
And that's where I felt freest.
I felt freest standing in frontof a hospital on a subzero
February day, leading a prayervigil.
I felt free there.
(14:41):
I felt free laying on thepresident's lawn to draw
attention to the fact that he'snot moving.
I felt free doing these works.
Ironically that my less freework, my professional work that
pays the bills had equipped meto do in some ways, Right.
But I also wasn't like, okay,I'm just gonna quit my job and
run off here and do this,because now I'm a liability to
(15:04):
the movement.
Am I not?
Because now somebody gotta feedme and house me and take care of
me.
So the pragmatic always in someway, will set parameters around
free will.
But freedom, is that it's adepth thing.
It's not a broad thing.
It's how deeply free am I?
How free am I to get up and notworry about what anybody thinks,
(15:26):
cuz I'm gonna go do this, andthen bring that back to my
professional life or my familylife or my social life and hand
it to folks and say, I expectyou to be proud of this.
Joy Blue (15:36):
Hmm.
Tim Wolfe (15:37):
And that's the shamelessness that comes with
real freedom.
And it's, this is what I do.
Think what you will, I'm notembarrassed about it.
This is what I do.
Joy Blue (15:48):
I'm trying to make sure I heard you right.
There's so much in what you justsaid.
And I think what I heard you saywas and this is something I've
been working with a lot, like.
It's adjacent to free will, butthe concept of agency.
Of I have the ability to makedecisions for myself.
I have the right to advocate formyself and because I belong to
(16:09):
myself, I can then reach out anduse whatever resources I have
for the benefit around me.
Tim Wolfe (16:19):
Right.
Joy Blue (16:20):
And so what I heard you say was a version of that.
Tim Wolfe (16:24):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (16:25):
Of like somewhere along the journey, all along the
journey, you've figured out howto use the resources at your
disposal to figure out how tolive, to use a Glennon Doyle
word, like your most true, mostbeautiful life.
Tim Wolfe (16:41):
is not always beautiful.
and sometimes is it doesn't evenfeel true, right?
I don't wanna paint such a rosyidealistic picture to suggest
that there are not moments ofprofound doubt, there are not
moments of sorrow.
There are people that that Ihave loved who when I decided
that I was not going to botheranymore with shielding them from
(17:06):
my true self, they walked away.
And the interesting thing, whenpeople abandon you, and they
will, people will abandon you,whether it's in relationships or
friendships or professionally,they'll abandon you.
And the weirdness about that forme was never that my feelings
were hurt, that they walked awaybecause that's their right and
go ahead.
Joy Blue (17:26):
sure.
Tim Wolfe (17:27):
but I always felt stupid
Joy Blue (17:28):
Mm
Tim Wolfe (17:28):
Because it was always like, why didn't I realize that
what I thought was going on hereprobably was not going on.
The love that I thought that wehad was a love I had.
Why was I not smart enough tosee?
Why did I trust them so much toexpect them to bank this curve
that I've just thrown with them?
How did I miss that?
(17:49):
You cannot live as freely as youcan without offending people,
because people want you to dowhat they want you to do.
And whenever it turns out thatyou're bursting the seams that
they've tried to sew you in,that becomes a problem for them.
Because now you're creatingdisorder in their lives.
Joy Blue (18:07):
And now we're back to conformity,
Tim Wolfe (18:09):
So that's why you need, just don't make waves.
Joy Blue (18:12):
right?
Tim Wolfe (18:12):
The whole supremacist thing survives on the fear of
making waves.
That's the whole thing.
and I'm not talking about justracial supremacy, I'm talking
about gender supremacy.
Any time that a group tries totake Supreme authority over
something, the expectation isthat nobody will buck them, you
know, and nobody will complainbecause complaining will get you
(18:34):
in trouble.
And it's I'm already in trouble.
Joy Blue (18:38):
right.
And if, yeah, if you're introuble, then you're not a part
of the group, which means you'rea loner, which means.
Tim Wolfe (18:44):
Right.
And now take whatever name youwant to take from high school.
Like now you're a geek.
Now you're a nerd.
Now you've got cooties, if youwanna go back to the first or
second grade now, now you'reostracized.
You're marginalized.
We've got all these fancy wordsthat mean the same thing.
But in the end, you were alreadyin trouble before they kicked
you to the curb.
Because You were having tosurrender a part of yourself to
(19:06):
be part of something thatdoesn't want all of you.
Joy Blue (19:10):
So, Where can you be all of you?
Tim Wolfe (19:13):
You just have to make that space and pay the price for
making that space.
Joy Blue (19:18):
So am I hearing you right that?
How do I say this?
There's a, I think there's apart of everybody that is
looking to be able to be fullythemselves everywhere they go.
There is a narrative I grew upwith of you should be the same
person, every in every situationyou're in.
But what I've heard you say isthere is a work you, there is a
(19:40):
You in relationship, there's ayou in activism, there's a you
in the pastorship that you'rein.
Is that being inauthentic?
I don't feel like that's beinginauthentic.
Tim Wolfe (19:52):
because this is the difference.
One size fits all is not the waythat it works.
You bring who you are to thoseexperiences.
They're all consistent with whoyou are, but the way that you
engage them is different.
The passions that bubble up overhere...
Joy Blue (20:06):
Mm.
Tim Wolfe (20:06):
you know, uh, That kind of stuff.
Now I'll give you a goodexample.
I come from a Southern family.
I also come from a very strict,fundamentalist family, right?
So there's all that stuff.
And every so often there is thesummons to come south and
everybody's getting together andit's usually at my mama's house
and there's always a big dinner.
And Now, there I sit at thistable and unapologetically
(20:33):
queer,
Joy Blue (20:33):
mm-hmm
Tim Wolfe (20:34):
emphatically Christian,
Joy Blue (20:37):
mm-hmm
Tim Wolfe (20:38):
Fully engaged professional person who expects
respect on all those fronts.
And I sit there among all ofthese people who are very
nervous about that wholejuxtaposition.
Right.
Okay.
Because in their minds Ishouldn't be successful because
I'm out of sync with this, that,or the other.
Right.
(20:58):
You see I'm saying?
also.
Joy Blue (20:59):
the conformity lines
Tim Wolfe (21:00):
Yeah, I'm also opted to live up north.
I also have opted to live with aman of African American
heritage, right.
So they can't check one of theirboxes with me and it makes them
very uncomfortable because theminute they check one, it, the
next one is out.
So again, this conversation andthey like to always rip me about
this, that, and the other.
And they're talking about stuffin Chicago and making all these
generalities and they starttalking about a very prominent
(21:23):
Chicagoan and an activist.
Who's a good friend of mine.
I just said, you need to stopthere.
I don't let people talk about myfriends.
Joy Blue (21:28):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (21:30):
it's just what you're saying just shows how little'you
know about him.
So you're gonna have to leavethat alone.
And uh, he's also an AfricanAmerican and my cousin had a
daughter who had a boyfriend wasthere and he was just going to
decide to hold court there.
This was his went through thiswhole thing about, I just don't
see what all the big deal isabout all of these black folks
(21:52):
being upset.
Anyway, I don't understand
Joy Blue (21:54):
Mm.
Tim Wolfe (21:55):
In, and of course already my blood goes up right.
And then he says, my great,great grandfather came over from
Scotland and he pulled himselfup by his bootstraps and he He
worked hard and he createdwealth that has kept our family
secure.
And I just don't understand whythat's so impossible for them.
(22:16):
Now.
The well bred, rich Southern boythat I grew up, the Southern
grandson, my grandparents andgreat grandparents were well off
people.
I don't mean rich, like incurrent today's sense, but yeah,
we had, we net worth.
That kid was supposed to just bepolite to the day to guest
Joy Blue (22:32):
yep.
Tim Wolfe (22:33):
and let that go.
Joy Blue (22:35):
Right?
Tim Wolfe (22:36):
The justice kid in me is like, you know, what you
really wanna do is fly acrossthis table and slap some sense
into this guy.
So that's not gonna be an optioneither, but that's the way that
goes.
Then the um, husband of anAfrican American is deeply
wounded and offended by thisbecause I have had had a front
row to the struggle, and sothere's that.
(22:58):
Then the Christian in me has acertain reaction.
All of these.
All of these people willconverge in these settings.
That's where trying to get to.
Right.
So it's not like you're beinginauthentic, who you are.
It's not like you're being adifferent person.
You, what you're doing is youare you're modulating the whole
court of who you are to fit themoment.
(23:20):
Right?
So I just look at him and I justsaid, well, first of all, I
think I, it looks like she likesyou a whole lot.
You may be wind up being a partof the family.
We're not dumb people.
And I want you to stop tellingpeople that, talking about
people pulling themselves up bytheir bootstraps because that's
a physical impossibility.
You should try it.
If you try to pull yourself upby your boot straps, you'll tip
forward.
(23:41):
can never do that.
So don't use that metaphoragain.
It's a false metaphor.
But second of all, I just haveone question about your great
grandfather, Shamus or Willie orwhatever his name was.
Joy Blue (23:51):
mm-hmm
Tim Wolfe (23:52):
Did he buy a ticket?
And he just looked at me at meand said, what do you mean?
I said, when he got on the boatto come over here and build this
life that you are enjoying now,buy a ticket?
and he said, well, I, I guessso.
And I said, yeah see, myhusband's ancestors didn't buy a
ticket.
Joy Blue (24:13):
Mmm.
Tim Wolfe (24:15):
They didn't choose to come over here.
They weren't given an option tofind work.
They were put to work.
And so to compare them to yourgreat granddady Willie.
Joy Blue (24:27):
Yep.
Tim Wolfe (24:29):
It's a false comparison and it's an unjust
comparison and it only shows howlittle consideration you've
given this topic.
So from now on maybe, well,however you do away from here.
I don't care, but when you're atthis table, I really need you to
bring good thought that showsthat you've really thought about
this.
And you're just not repeatingwhat you've heard in barbershops
and other places where peopledon't know what they're talking
(24:51):
about.
Joy Blue (24:51):
Right,
Tim Wolfe (24:53):
And the whole family just sort of did this and then
they changed the subject.
But it was like, because I wasthere being the dutiful son did
not mean I shut all that otherstuff down.
It's just, I don't need to leadwith all that other stuff all
the time.
You see what I'm saying?
It's kind of, and no, I don'tthink that it's being an
(25:13):
authentic at all to go in undera different sort of persona's
too strong, a word under adifferent sort of level of
engagement.
You just don't leave the rest ofyourself out.
Joy Blue (25:25):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (25:26):
I've been with presenters in a ballroom and
they've said da, da, da, da.
And it's like, you know what?
I don't think you wanna saythat.
Because I don't think you, youhave a full grasp of what that
means and how people in youraudience are gonna hear it.
Joy Blue (25:40):
right,
Tim Wolfe (25:40):
does that mean?
Let me explain this to you.
If I'm a woman of color in theaudience, what you just said
hits me a certain kind of wayyou, as a white male with a lot
of privilege might have not notunderstand.
Right, I've got fired from jobsfor that sometimes.
And it's well, that's fine, cuzwe weren't gonna work together
well anyway.
So I don't think you leaveyourself ever out of where you
(26:02):
are, but it doesn't mean thatyou always have to come in with
a Mack truck and dump all of youinto that situation.
A lot of that is just back therewithin your reach if you need
it.
Joy Blue (26:12):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (26:13):
I had the joy of sitting with Bella Abzog when I
was in undergrad.
I got to spend the time withquite a few people in my
undergrad years that were prettyphenomenal
Joy Blue (26:22):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (26:23):
and Abzog was one of them.
And I, what always appreciatedabout her was here, she's this
radical feminist, east coast,died in the hide liberal
Democrat, who could sit atdinner and just laugh and joke
and ask about your family andall these kinds of things and
never, ever go into agenda work.
(26:45):
Right?
Joy Blue (26:46):
Mm.
Tim Wolfe (26:46):
And then whenever you were standing next to her and
she was on a full on 100%feminist rant, the legitimacy of
her words was born out by theauthenticity that you experience
of her not being the activist,but just being yourself.
Joy Blue (27:04):
It's all looping back around.
So we started with the conceptof conformity.
And we've gone through a littlebit of a journey of talking
about how that applies ordoesn't apply in different
regions, in different settings.
We've talked a little bit aboutagency.
We've talked about essentiallyhow to be comfortable within
yourself with all of thesedifferent parts of you and how
(27:27):
to be, I guess, kind of streetwise enough to be able to call
forward different parts of youto be the most authentic version
of you at a certain place intime and to hold true to who you
are and not necessarily conform,just because that's, what's
expected of you.
Did I sum that up well?
Tim Wolfe (27:48):
That's beautiful.
The pressures to conformityoften have great intentions.
Right.
What I'm seeing today in ourcurrent culture are a lot of
people who are, how can I sayit, wanting to press their own
sort of higher consciousness,they wanna lead with that.
(28:09):
And that's what you draw from.
That's not what you lead with.
Right.
Because in the end, people aregoing to test you and they're
going to reflect on what yourstory is.
That's goes back to story,right?
I've got a really good friendwho, one day out of nowhere,
just announced that he and hiswife had decided that they were
gonna become vegans.
(28:29):
Because it's, are you concernedabout health?
What is, I wanna just know whatthis is.
Joy Blue (28:34):
right.
Tim Wolfe (28:35):
And um, no, it's because of the environment.
And we all know the whole thingwith the methane and the cows
this.
Right.
Well, they became very avidvegans to the point that was
pretty much all they wanted totalk about.
And it was sort of like, ohLord, okay.
I would really just like to knowwhether or not you think
Beyonce's gonna last through thenext, you know, you know.
Could we talk about somethingelse?
(28:56):
Right.
And then they became avid veganswho needed to try every vegan
restaurant in the world.
Right.
And so now they are flying toIceland and they're flying to
Mexico and they're flying to SanFrancisco and they're telling me
where the greatest veganrestaurants and, and it's like,
how are you getting there?
Joy Blue (29:15):
yeah.
Tim Wolfe (29:16):
And it's like, so cow farts aren't good.
But plane travel is
Joy Blue (29:23):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (29:24):
And that's the challenge I think we have
whenever we try to attachsignificance to these moves, as
opposed to realizing I'm justsorting it out.
And whenever your views becomethe imperative that everyone
else must meet and obey andhonor in the room, then the
people who really, and I saythis all the time, the folks who
(29:45):
need agency, the folks who needrecognition, the unheard voices
cannot be heard if all of theseprivileged folks are draping
themselves in all these causesand making this noise.
Because now we just got chaos,you know, it's like have a
hamburger, stay off a plane.
(30:06):
How's that?
Try that.
It is this notion of how thingsquickly become confused with all
the virtue signaling and all ofthis kind of and all of these
realities.
And in the end it's like, let'sgo back to the tribe.
What are your gifts?
What are your strengths?
What can you do that strengthensthe whole?
Joy Blue (30:26):
Right.
Tim Wolfe (30:27):
but a lot of this stuff lately to me seems almost
narcissistic, right?
This is just how I am.
This is the wholeness I found.
This is the way I am and da, da,da, da, da.
And it's not functional.
Joy Blue (30:38):
right.
It's individualistic instead of
Tim Wolfe (30:40):
There you go.
Thank
Joy Blue (30:41):
Being Part of a whole
Tim Wolfe (30:43):
Right.
And so what does this mean?
does this benefit?
Not just me, but benefit us.
What does this do?
Joy Blue (30:50):
It's acknowledging that my actions have ripple
effects.
Tim Wolfe (30:53):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (30:54):
not just me.
It's like what you were saying.
Yeah, it's good for you.
If that's what you want to do.
Sure.
Go be vegan.
That's great.
also acknowledge that that doeshave ripple effects in a lot of
different ways.
Tim Wolfe (31:09):
yeah.
Right.
There are all those things thatneed to be taken into
consideration.
And I'm very proud of youngpeople and their concerns.
I'm also concerned that theythink being concerned is the end
game and it's not
Joy Blue (31:26):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (31:27):
all right.
Those concerns should lead youto some kind of recognition of
something within you that makesyou useful to the greater whole.
If we are all just sitting inour cubicles and I'm using that
metaphorically being ultra awareand ultra, you know, this and
(31:47):
ultra that and are doing all ofthose kinds of things, and not
understanding that it's acommunity.
And that means it's a reallyuneven and it's jagged and
you're gonna bump your head inthe low places and you're gonna
get overwhelmed in the highplaces.
But you're in the community.
Joy Blue (32:06):
Right.
Tim Wolfe (32:07):
And so I think that's where agency is so important
because it is not just what Ican do for my own betterment.
That may be the beginning, cuzthat's the lens through which I
understand the world.
But then when I see people likeme...
what drove the whole aidsactivism thing that ultimately
changed the way America looks atsame gender loving people.
What drove that was the horrorof able bodied, well men and
(32:33):
women, and especially samegender loving women to act on
behalf of those because throughtheir own lens, they understood.
You see.
What this meant, and theyunderstood that this is a
horribly random situation thatis perpetuated by isolation and
marginalization.
And so we gotta break the wholemother down.
(32:54):
It's all gotta be broke down.
We've got to pull into themainstream.
Now what I also on the otherside now is now that we've
fought for this and it's been 50years no movement has ever made
so much success in so short oftime, here we are.
And in the middle of that, now,people.
Now we gotta go back and reclaimall these queer spaces and it's
like, okay, well, what were wedoing?
Joy Blue (33:13):
Right.
Tim Wolfe (33:14):
So now we're gonna go back in the tent and we're gonna
hunker down and be all ourselvesagain, until we get in trouble.
And then what are we gonna do?
You can't do that.
Your individual agency is notthe end.
It's to propel you to use thatagency on behalf of others.
Whether you're modeling it,whether you're actually acting
(33:37):
against it, whatever it is,because there's somebody behind
you,
Joy Blue (33:42):
yeah.
Tim Wolfe (33:43):
either generationally or in terms of resources,
there's somebody behind you.
And I see this when I'm infundraisers and that kind of
stuff who have everything in theworld that you could possibly
imagine and are still talking tome about their anxieties and
about how they just can't getalong in the world and they're
glassy eyed from all thepharmaceuticals they're taking
(34:04):
and all of this is going on.
And then you say, what are youdoing outside of tending to
yourself?
And at the same time they wannalet you know how cool it is and
how grateful they are and howimpressed they are that my
husband and I have been togetherfor 30 years.
And how cool it is that we're aninterracial gay couple.
And they're just all acceptingof that.
In fact, that probably gets uson a lot of dinner party lists.
Joy Blue (34:25):
Mm,
Tim Wolfe (34:26):
But in the end it's what are you doing with what
you've been given?
Joy Blue (34:29):
Right, to sum that up beautifully, like we did start
with the concept of conformityand now it's all coming to head
and talking about, yeah, youdon't have to be what everybody
expects you to be.
And it's so important to knowwho you are to know what your
strengths are in the world toacknowledge you can't do
(34:49):
everything, but you have beengiven enough tools to be the
goodness that you are.
So now that you are good in whoyou are, because you exist,
because of who you are, now youhave the opportunity to then go
and propel forward goodness forothers.
Because we are a part, are apart of a bigger spectrum.
(35:13):
And in pushing forward, I lovewhat you said.
There are people behind you.
There are people that you aremaking spaces of belonging for
because you are being fullyyourself in these spaces and not
necessarily conforming to whatis expected of you.
Tim Wolfe (35:32):
Yeah.
I mean, I don't apologizewherever I may be for who I am.
Right.
And whether it's in a corporatearena or a religious arena or a
social arena, if you are notcomfortable around me, then you
know how to excuse yourself.
Joy Blue (35:45):
Right,
Tim Wolfe (35:46):
that's not my job to make that's different than
hospitality.
Hospitality is throwing open myarms and saying, I'm all of
this.
Come on and get whatever youneed,
Joy Blue (35:53):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (35:54):
but me running around and you make people
uncomfortable.
Yeah.
That's not my problem.
So
Joy Blue (36:00):
They also have the agency to leave.
Tim Wolfe (36:02):
that's what I'm saying.
It's like, you know, if it's toomuch walk away I just on Sunday
saw The Woman King.
Have you seen it yet the ViolaDavis movie?
It's a wonderful movie in manyrespects.
I started life as a film critic.
And someone grew up loving filmsand loving movies that now I
look back and I just cringe likeKing Solomon's minds, these kind
movies, Gungadin oh, he's anoble soul because he took the
(36:23):
bullet, you know, what?, youknow, that kind of stuff.
Right.
And I hate that I've lost thosefilms to a certain extent
because they have a verysentimental value to me.
And at the same time I can'thave them.
Right.
That's just the case and whatthe woman king does is really
quite marvelous cause it takes,what is that same kind of
adventure movie set in Africawith all of this cultural stuff.
(36:47):
And it legitimizes all of thatas a conflict between tribes on
the continent in which the whiteinterloper is actually creating
problems.
Right?
so there's a very interestingway that they play this all out.
It's based on historical truthand the kingdom of Dahomey,
there was a group of womenwarriors and in some ways it's
almost like a military trainingfilm.
(37:09):
We're gonna teach these youngwomen how to be warriors.
And they go to this test andit's very interesting to me
before they get to the combatportion of the test, they have
to run through a Bramble ofthistles.
Joy Blue (37:23):
Mm.
Tim Wolfe (37:24):
And they get cut up, and the scenes after they
succeed are of pulling thesethistles out that they've
acquired just to get into thefight.
Joy Blue (37:34):
Mm.
Tim Wolfe (37:34):
And I love that and it made my heart race a little
bit, because I think there'ssome truth there that you can't
just jump into the fight andstart taking the heads off of
the enemies to whatever it isthat you're fighting.
You gotta go through thebrambles.
Joy Blue (37:49):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (37:50):
take, you gotta take the thorns and you gotta let
your flesh get torn and yougotta suffer some before you get
to the real fight.
And I see so many peoplethinking that there's a
workaround for that and there'sjust not.
Joy Blue (38:03):
yeah.
Tim Wolfe (38:03):
And at one point Viola Davis says your flesh is
going to be scarred.
You're going to have all kindsof scars, but that's your
credentials.
That's your cred.
Joy Blue (38:13):
Yeah.
Tim Wolfe (38:15):
And I think in fighting conformity, in looking
to live free it's, as I saidbefore, freedom is a deep thing.
It's not a broad thing.
And the deeper you go in tryingto really experience and
understand freedom, the morebrambles you gotta run through.
You gotta have to go throughsome of that and you're gonna,
you're gonna get scarred andyou're gonna get hurt and it's
(38:36):
gonna be painful.
But you can't just read a booklike after George Floyd,
everybody started reading thesebooks.
And now you're not a racistanymore?
Yeah that's not how this works.
Okay.
So many of my active oldactivist friends will say
freedom ain't free and that'sthe way it works.
So.
(38:56):
If you don't want to live aconformist life, you have to
take the beating that comes toget into that.
And then after a while you justdon't feel the pain anymore
because it's,"child I've beenthrough worse." you know, it's
okay.
Whatever.
You take that and you run withit, I gotta go.
And so that's sort of the waythat I get into that.
Anyway.
Joy Blue (39:16):
Tim.
This has been a wonderfulconversation.
Tim Wolfe (39:19):
Thanks for the opportunity.
I don't get to sit down and talkabout this very often.
It's just sort of do you know,I'm in it, but thank you.
Joy Blue (39:26):
I, I have loved this so much, and I'm so grateful for
you giving me a little bit ofyour time and your thoughts.
Tim Wolfe (39:33):
Well, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Joy Blue (39:36):
So Here We Are.
Wow.
We covered so much ground in 38minutes.
Here are some of the majortakeaways for me.
This first one is pertinentbecause I personally do
everything I can to not quote,get in trouble.
Tim Wolfe (39:56):
But in the end, you were already in trouble before
they kicked you to the curb.
Because You were having tosurrender a part of yourself to
be part of something thatdoesn't want all of you.
Joy Blue (40:11):
The choice is being who you want me to be, but
sacrificing who I am.
Or being who I am andsacrificing who you want me to
be.
If I've learned anything thisyear, it's that I'm choosing me.
This next one hit me deep aswell.
Tim Wolfe (40:28):
You gotta take the thorns and you gotta let your
flesh get torn and you gottasuffer some before you get to
the real fight.
Joy Blue (40:36):
I hope you'll take time to sit with the parts of
this interview that poked at youand brought up potentially
uncomfortable feelings.
Where have you conformed ratherthan stayed true to yourself?
I have so much to think about,and I hope you'll join me in
processing this interview aswell.
Once again, thank you so muchfor coming and sharing your
process with us, Tim.
(40:57):
I hope this is only thebeginning of curious
conversations we'll havetogether.
If you've got a flavor of nerdthat you want me to celebrate, I
would love to hear all about it.
So go ahead and email me atherewearethepodcast@gmail.com
and tell me everything.
I love taking time to sit andmake space for nerd to be
celebrated.
If you really liked this podcastand what I financially support
(41:18):
what I'm doing, head on over toPatreon.com search for Here We
Are the podcast and sign up forone of the many beautifully
written support tiers that I'mreally proud of.
I would just like to announcethat for the first time ever in
Here We Are history, I have asponsor in the holy guacamole
tier.
John Marovich, thank you.
Not only for letting meinterview you, but for believing
(41:41):
in me and for being holyguacamole.
So until next time don't forgetthat curiosity wins and the
world needs more nerds.
Bye
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