Episode Transcript
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Joy Blue (00:10):
Welcome to Here We Are.
The podcast where we celebratethe beauty of being a nerd by
learning about nerdy things fromfellow nerds.
I'm your host, Joy Blue.
Okay, we gotta talk about this.
I didn't know that today's guestnerd existed until just a few
weeks ago.
And now that I know, I have anew fascination and respect for
(00:33):
not only aquaculture, which wasa word I learned from this
podcast, but virology.
Today we are going to take avirtual tour of science at work.
Put on your imaginary lab coatand let's get to work.
So without further ado, here'sMelissa White to talk with us
all about fish virology.
Melissa White (00:55):
Hello, I'm Melissa White.
I live in Oregon and I'm ascientist and I work with fish
viruses.
Joy Blue (01:04):
That is amazing.
So Shannon, who was on thepodcast two weeks ago,
introduced Melissa and I andsaid, Oh, you need to talk to my
friend Melissa.
She does fish viruses.
And I was like, Excuse me, what?
Melissa White (01:17):
Yep.
Joy Blue (01:18):
I need to know everything.
We're talking about fishviruses.
What's the technical?
Is it like fish virology?
Melissa White (01:25):
So my position is a fish virologist slash fish
health specialist.
Joy Blue (01:32):
Okay.
How does one get started in fishvirology?
Melissa White (01:35):
Yeah.
I've found myself in a uniquelittle corner of science.
I started with a microbiologydegree.
And then I decided I wanted togo to grad school, got a
cellular molecular biologydegree in the Midwest, so Kansas
City area.
(01:56):
And then I worked with yeastabout 4 years.
Yeah,
Joy Blue (02:02):
You worked with yeast?
Melissa White (02:03):
And then I decided this is fine, but it's
not that exciting to me anymore.
Joy Blue (02:08):
hold on, hold on, Hold on.
You worked with yeast.
Melissa White (02:12):
Yes.
Joy Blue (02:13):
What does that mean?
Melissa White (02:14):
We were doing a lot of research on like the life
cycle of yeast and what causesit to like sporulate, and what
it really meant was I wasspending a lot of hours in a
dark room with a microscope anda little clicker counting yeast
(02:34):
spores.
Joy Blue (02:35):
Wow.
Melissa White (02:36):
yeah,
Joy Blue (02:36):
Okay.
And then moving on, you saidthis is cool, but
Melissa White (02:39):
yeah.
Yeah, so then I decided I wantedto do something that could
combine like outdoors and labwork.
And I started looking online atjobs, and then I thought, Oh,
here's a cool job I really don'tknow anything about fish, but
I'm certain that all the labwork and lab experience, like
(03:00):
I'm qualified for it.
And it's out in Oregon and I hadjust visited Washington and I'm
like, Love it out there.
I love the Pacific Northwest.
And so I applied and magicallygot it.
I mean it all just really linedup.
Joy Blue (03:18):
Okay.
How many years have you been afish Virologist now?
Melissa White (03:22):
I've been a fish virologist for about seven
years,
Joy Blue (03:26):
Okay.
Melissa White (03:27):
and then four years previous to that, I was
still in the Fish Health lab asa microbiologist.
Joy Blue (03:32):
Okay.
Wow.
What have been some of yourbiggest learning curves?
Like what has been surprising toyou?
Melissa White (03:39):
Honestly it was just working with these huge
salmon that are, 20, some of'em,20, 30 pounds.
That's a lot bigger than a tinylittle
Joy Blue (03:47):
Little yeast And clickers
Melissa White (03:49):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (03:49):
So when you work with a fish, what does that mean?
Melissa White (03:52):
So I'm in a diagnostic lab.
And so I really study the fishpathogens and not the fish, but
we will go out to, if there'slike a fish die off or something
like that in nature or at ahatchery, we have a lot of
hatcheries out here in thePacific Northwest to make sure
that the populations of Salmonaslike don't go extinct.
(04:15):
So we'll go out and try todiagnose, see what's going on.
And if it's a parasite orbacteria, it's fairly easy to
diagnose just with like amicroscope, a regular light
microscope.
But viruses are so small youcan't just see them with a
regular microscope.
There are microscopes withhigher resolution and more power
(04:39):
that you can, but it's not, it'svery expensive and not
reasonable to use that as ascreening mechanism.
Joy Blue (04:47):
Interesting.
Melissa White (04:48):
So what we do if we suspect a virus or if we're
just screening a population forvirus, is use a technique called
cell culture.
And so that is taking healthycells that you are culturing in
controlled conditions, so you'regrowing them up in a flask or a
(05:11):
plate and you know what thehealthy cells do, and then you
put the sample that you suspecthas virus in it
Joy Blue (05:20):
Yep.
Melissa White (05:21):
in with the cells and see what the effect is.
If it doesn't do anything, thereis no evidence of virus.
And if it kills the cells orchanges them in some way, then
that's called a cytopathiceffect.
And you might have a virusthere,
Joy Blue (05:38):
It feels like you're a mad scientist.
Do you sometimes step back andlaugh evilly when things work or
don't work?
Melissa White (05:44):
Uh, no, But when I tell stories to friends, they
do so
Joy Blue (05:50):
appropriate.
You're just over here casuallylike, Yeah, whatever.
It's fine.
Yeah.
But
Melissa White (05:56):
The other day I said to my therapist that I had
to go to a spawn and shecouldn't stop laughing.
She didn't know what to think ofthat.
Joy Blue (06:04):
what does that mean?
Melissa White (06:07):
That's exactly what she said.
Joy Blue (06:09):
I don't understand I have so many things popping into
my head of what it could be, andit looks like fish dancing
around a bonfire for somereason.
Melissa White (06:17):
Then, In her mind they had like little devil
horns.
Joy Blue (06:21):
Oh, okay, cool.
Like spawn of the devil.
Yeah.
Okay.
Melissa White (06:24):
really just collecting some ovarian fluid.
And I'm making it worse, aren'tI?
Joy Blue (06:29):
Don't stop.
Keep going.
Melissa White (06:34):
You know, you collect ovarian fluid, you
collect some tissues, that virusare mostly present if it's gonna
be there, and then we take'emback to the lab and it's a two
week process to get the resultsmost of the time.
Joy Blue (06:46):
Wow.
Melissa White (06:47):
But yeah.
In that case of spawning, we'rejust monitoring where virus is
in the state and.
It goes into managementdecisions on like if we do
detect a virus in a small fit,like we don't wanna transport
that to a place that has neverseen virus before or that
(07:09):
particular strain of
Joy Blue (07:11):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
Melissa White (07:12):
So yeah, I have a weird job,
Joy Blue (07:15):
I love this for you.
I just have so many questionsand still the fish are dancing
around the bonfire in my head.
Melissa White (07:21):
Yeah that's a good image.
Joy Blue (07:24):
dancing on your tail.
That's just, I don't know.
Does that hurt?
It's better than flopping onyour side.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Is there awe connected to yourjob?
What keeps you in it?
What keeps your attention?
Melissa White (07:36):
Yeah I would say yes, definitely.
So many times when I'm scanningthrough these samples, we don't
see a ton of virus, thankgoodness.
But then when you do, there isthat moment of like, ah, like
this is new, this is exciting.
What does this mean?
And most of the time I have anidea based on what that
(07:58):
cytopathic effect looks like,what the temperature was like,
the history of the stuff of whatthe virus is.
But there's definitely timeswhere it could be a new virus
and then we have to figure itout.
And it's a mystery.
And I think that's what alwaysdrew me to science in the first
(08:20):
place.
I think, you know, in, in highschool, I mean I still like
science, but I, you're presentedof like, here's this complete
picture of everything.
And then when I moved intoCollege, then it's like, oh
wait, we really know verylittle.
We know a lot more than we usedto, but there's still just huge
(08:43):
areas where it's unknown.
Joy Blue (08:46):
So much room for wonder.
Melissa White (08:48):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (08:48):
So what is the process from identifying a virus to
figuring it out?
That sounds like you're NancyDrew in some ways of like trying
to find the connections, tryingto find what's familiar.
Do you have software that says,Oh, this looks like this.
Or how do you start down thepath of figuring that out?
Melissa White (09:11):
Yeah, I think a lot of times, and when I'm
training someone on this, it'slike you kind of just have to
look through tons and tons ofcells to see what normal is
because there's a whole range ofwhat normally happens in these
cell lines.
And at a certain point, you'llknow when something looks off.
(09:31):
One of the viruses that I dealwith the most, it is a
rhabdovirus.
Which everyone's probably heardof rabies.
That's a rhabdovirus.
So this is a fish rhabdovirus,and it causes the healthy cells
to swell up and almost look likegrapes.
And then at a certain point, thevirus will multiply inside the
(09:54):
cells so much that it will thensplice and then the virion, the
little virus particles can gointo all the neighboring cells.
And so it's a pretty drasticeffect.
And with that particular virus,it's our most common, if I've
seen it in an area, in a river,you know, every year for the
(10:16):
last 10 years, when it pops up,I'm not that surprised.
We still have to confirm thatthough.
And so at that point I wouldtake some of that sample and do
a PCR which probably in the daysof covid, a lot of people have
heard of PCR testing.
It's basically a molecular testthat targets a certain portion
(10:40):
of the gene.
And if you can amplify that inPCR that confirms that, yes,
what you thought was this virusis this virus, because those,
the target is so specific thatit amplify any other virus out
there,
Joy Blue (10:56):
Interesting.
Melissa White (10:57):
and then you have to take it a step further and
sequence it, which we send thatoff.
I don't do that myself.
You can have many differentvariations of the same virus,
and they affect different fishdifferently.
So it can become a littlecomplicated if you have an
(11:19):
outbreak, you know what you dowith those results.
And as a fish health specialistand fish virologist, we give
recommendations.
But then really above that it's,managers of the program that
make the final decision on ifthose fish can be transported to
this other area or what happensto them.
Joy Blue (11:40):
Sure.
So you find these viruses in thefish, but what is the life cycle
of that virus?
Where is it introduced?
What are its effects down theline?
What's that look like?
Melissa White (11:53):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Some of that is not known.
So I'll talk about the specificvirus again.
It's called IHNV, InfectiousHematopoietic Necrosis Virus.
I mostly deal with salmoneds andchinook salmon.
There's, as adults, they swim upriver back to where they were
hatched and somehow they cansense, like whether it's the
(12:17):
amino acid composition in thewater, somehow they can get back
to where they know that they'resupposed to start the next
generation.
And then those fish die afterthey have laid their eggs or
they age out.
And some of those fish can bringback virus to the rivers and
(12:39):
then they're constantly sheddingit into the water.
And so then small juvenile fishcan pick that up.
And so it's horizontal transfer.
And then it's just, you know,those fish can swim out.
Every fish, everything thatthey're passing on the way,
there's a chance that they'regonna pass it.
(12:59):
And so that's really how itkeeps going.
This particular virus can stayviable for quite a while, like a
month in the water as well.
I think at 15 degrees Celsius,then it can just hang out.
But there.
studies that show that a leechcan be a host for it as well.
(13:21):
And so if you have otherorganisms that are potentially
this host, then yeah, you'rejust never really going to get
completely rid of it.
Joy Blue (13:30):
So in the face of something that is gray and hairy
and gnarly, and you don't reallyknow where it comes from or
where does it go, your job isjust monitoring?
Melissa White (13:42):
It's monitoring and making sure that as an
organization we don't add towhat nature's doing already.
Joy Blue (13:51):
So there's a part of me that's like, it's a virus, it
should go away.
But that's not what I'm hearingyou say.
Like, We're not introducing morethings into the environment to
mitigate the virus orcountermeasures.
You're purely just seeking tounderstand.
Melissa White (14:12):
Well, We're seeking to understand and
control in the ways that we cancontrol it.
Cuz we're never going to get ridof it.
I mean, That would be great ifwe could, because especially for
a fish virus, there's notreatment that we can give a
group a fish after they comedown with it.
And even in a hatchery settingwhere we could, you know, give
(14:34):
them a treatment for a bacterialinfection or parasitic
infection, there's just nothingyou can do for a virus.
So it's in wild fish.
A lot of our situations thatwe've had are, because fish get
above a hatchery intake, andthen they're shedding the virus
(14:54):
into the water.
And unfortunately, hatcheriesare, I mean, you have a lot of
fish you know, high densitythey're gonna just, yeah.
So they're just gonna spreadwhatever they have around.
And the best thing you can do isto avoid it to begin with, but
we're realistic and know thatthat's not always what's going
to happen.
It's being passed around innature.
(15:18):
And one of our goals is like notto put it out there in higher
number than we should.
Yeah.
Joy Blue (15:26):
From a layman's perspective, I'm sitting here
listening to you being like,essentially it is what it is.
We're seeking to understand anddo the best we can with what we
have, which is a surprisinglybalanced approach to so many
things that I don't necessarilyhear everywhere.
(15:46):
Like it doesn't sound likeyou're scrambling for control.
It doesn't sound like, you know,you're taking action, which then
has ripple effects down the linethat, Oh, we didn't know about
that later.
It's just so interesting to meto hear, like for some reason,
my mind is blown of like, y'allare literally seeking to
(16:06):
understand, letting whathappens, happens, but you're
observing, doing the best youcan with what you have.
Trying to keep the informationout there.
It sounds like you're doing anamazing public service.
Melissa White (16:18):
Thank you.
Joy Blue (16:19):
Is that accurate?
Melissa White (16:20):
I would say that's accurate with viruses
that are known to us and thathave been around for a while.
I will say that like if new onespop up in aquaculture sometimes
things can get a little chaoticthen.
Trying to figure out what thisis to begin with.
(16:41):
Trying to figure out is it ourresponsibility to euthanize a
stock so it doesn't spread ifit's bad enough.
there have been situations wherepeople have had to make bad
calls and hard calls.
So It's not always as calm andcollected as you made it seem.
Most of the time it is though.
Joy Blue (17:01):
That's so interesting.
Melissa White (17:02):
But I, yeah, I just wanted to throw that out
there, that there are uniquecases where everyone's like,
Okay, like this is a new virus.
We don't know what it's going todo.
And again, it's like gettingmore data monitoring, There are
different research groups.
I'm not really in researchanymore.
Most of my job is purelydiagnostic.
Joy Blue (17:22):
Fascinating.
Melissa White (17:23):
I mean, Those groups are important to, to try
to figure out like, we have thisnew virus we also have this, you
know, historical important groupof fish.
how do we protect them?
Joy Blue (17:36):
Yeah.
That's so interesting.
Okay, so when you're gatheringthese cell cultures and you're
mining your data, are youspending a lot of time outside?
Are you catching fish?
Are you a master angler?
Are you a fly fisher?
Are you, No.
Okay.
That was very glamorized in myhead.
Melissa White (17:56):
am not I would say during different times of
the year, I have field days.
And field days to me are likegoing to a facility.
It's not like actually out inthe field.
Sometimes we do get rareopportunities where we're doing
more wild fish work, but yeah,maybe three to four times a
month.
(18:17):
We have other positions thatduring spawning season, they're
out four days a week, 10 to 12hour days.
I mean, it, there's a lot ofcollecting samples
Joy Blue (18:27):
Yeah.
Melissa White (18:27):
and yeah, in a hatchery setting the samples are
basically like there for us tocollect.
We're not out catching fish oranything.
The adults come back, they'reheld in ponds until they're
ready to spawn.
And then as they're taking theeggs, then, you know, we just
have a little Dixie cup, collectsome eggs.
Joy Blue (18:50):
Who knew a Dixie Cup could be a scientific tool?
Melissa White (18:53):
I know and then we use a syringe, get some of
the liquid out, and then put theeggs back in with the others,
and then that only, that littlesyringe comes back to the lab
with us,
Joy Blue (19:03):
So interesting.
Time period wise, from gatheringthe sample to your conclusions
on that sample, typically, howlong is that?
Melissa White (19:13):
It's a two week minimum.
Joy Blue (19:15):
Okay.
Melissa White (19:16):
Because once the sample gets onto cells, you
know, some viruses are reallyquick and you can see the
cytopathic effect in 24 hoursand some could take two weeks.
Because we're dealing with thetypes of samples we are,
sometimes there's contaminationor toxicity to the cells.
And so at that point you kinda,you have to filter out your
(19:40):
sample or dilute it out andstart the process over again on
new healthy, fresh cells.
And so I would say two weeksminimum.
Um, Sometimes it's three to fourweeks depending on what we see.
Now once I see what I think isIHNV that will happen at about
(20:02):
day five or six, I can go aheadand do the molecular PCR testing
right away.
And so that takes a day.
Joy Blue (20:10):
Sure.
Melissa White (20:11):
And then I can have a confirmation pretty
quick.
But if something does not haveevidence of virus, we let it go
the full two weeks.
And, you know, if something is anew novel virus, it might take a
month to get to the bottom of itbecause, We've never seen it
before.
And so you're talking to yourcolleagues in different areas,
(20:32):
different agencies, like, Hey,here's what I saw.
Here's the temperature.
Here's how long, here's whenCytopathic effects started.
Do you have any ideas on whatthis could be?
And yeah,
Joy Blue (20:45):
What a cool job.
What's one thing you want peopleto walk away from this podcast
with?
Melissa White (20:50):
Viruses are cool and we should respect them.
Joy Blue (20:55):
What does respect of a virus look like?
Melissa White (20:57):
we could make it about the pandemic, but like
they have.
I was gonna say a mind of theirown, but like that's not true.
They're not doing one thing oranother.
Like based on
Joy Blue (21:08):
Yeah, they don't have free will.
Melissa White (21:10):
Yeah, they don't have free will.
But I think the respect is likethey're gonna do what they're
gonna do and just because wewant to believe it or not,
doesn't change anything.
All organisms have a virus,right?
Like some virus that's going toeither harm or hurt them.
And we also have tons of virusesthat do nothing to us and it's
(21:33):
beneficial.
So in some ways, but
Joy Blue (21:36):
Respect the virus,
Melissa White (21:37):
respect the virus.
Joy Blue (21:39):
All right.
This has been amazing.
Thank you for sharing your nerdwith us.
Melissa White (21:45):
Thank you.
Joy Blue (21:46):
My mind is I still just have so many questions and
there's still fish dancingaround a bonfire, but it's fine.
Thank you so much.
Melissa White (21:53):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Joy Blue (21:55):
So here we are.
Never did I ever think that Iwould have the opportunity to
know about or even interview afish virologist, and now you all
have met one too! Melissa, thankyou for jumping on the call with
me, for sharing the passion ofyour work and for the timely
reminder to respect viruses.
(22:17):
I love how your nerd shows andcomes to life.
If you've got a flavor of nerdthat you want me to celebrate, I
would love to hear all about it.
So go ahead and email me atherewearethepodcast@gmail.com,
and tell me everything.
I love taking time to sit andmake space for nerd to be
celebrated.
If you really like this podcastand wanna financially support
(22:40):
what I'm doing, head on over topatreon.com, search for Here We
Are The Podcast, and sign up forone of the many beautifully
written support tiers that I'mvery proud of.
So until next week, don't forgetthat curiosity wins and the
world needs more nerds.
Bye.
Welcome to Here We Are.
The podcast where we celebratethe beauty of being a nerd by
learning about nerdy things fromfellow nerds.
I'm your host, Joy Blue.
Okay, we gotta talk about this.
I didn't know that today's guestnerd existed until just a few
weeks ago.
And now that I know, I have anew fascination and respect for
(00:33):
not only aquaculture, which wasa word I learned from this
podcast, but virology.
Today we are going to take avirtual tour of science at work.
Put on your imaginary lab coatand let's get to work.
So without further ado, here'sMelissa White to talk with us
all about fish virology.
Melissa White (00:55):
Hello, I'm Melissa White.
I live in Oregon and I'm ascientist and I work with fish
viruses.
Joy Blue (01:04):
That is amazing.
So Shannon, who was on thepodcast two weeks ago,
introduced Melissa and I andsaid, Oh, you need to talk to my
friend Melissa.
She does fish viruses.
And I was like, Excuse me, what?
Melissa White (01:17):
Yep.
Joy Blue (01:18):
I need to know everything.
We're talking about fishviruses.
What's the technical?
Is it like fish virology?
Melissa White (01:25):
So my position is a fish virologist slash fish
health specialist.
Joy Blue (01:32):
Okay.
How does one get started in fishvirology?
Melissa White (01:35):
Yeah.
I've found myself in a uniquelittle corner of science.
I started with a microbiologydegree.
And then I decided I wanted togo to grad school, got a
cellular molecular biologydegree in the Midwest, so Kansas
City area.
(01:56):
And then I worked with yeastabout 4 years.
Yeah,
Joy Blue (02:02):
You worked with yeast?
Melissa White (02:03):
And then I decided this is fine, but it's
not that exciting to me anymore.
Joy Blue (02:08):
hold on, hold on, Hold on.
You worked with yeast.
Melissa White (02:12):
Yes.
Joy Blue (02:13):
What does that mean?
Melissa White (02:14):
We were doing a lot of research on like the life
cycle of yeast and what causesit to like sporulate, and what
it really meant was I wasspending a lot of hours in a
dark room with a microscope anda little clicker counting yeast
(02:34):
spores.
Joy Blue (02:35):
Wow.
Melissa White (02:36):
yeah,
Joy Blue (02:36):
Okay.
And then moving on, you saidthis is cool, but
Melissa White (02:39):
yeah.
Yeah, so then I decided I wantedto do something that could
combine like outdoors and labwork.
And I started looking online atjobs, and then I thought, Oh,
here's a cool job I really don'tknow anything about fish, but
I'm certain that all the labwork and lab experience, like
(03:00):
I'm qualified for it.
And it's out in Oregon and I hadjust visited Washington and I'm
like, Love it out there.
I love the Pacific Northwest.
And so I applied and magicallygot it.
I mean it all just really linedup.
Joy Blue (03:18):
Okay.
How many years have you been afish Virologist now?
Melissa White (03:22):
I've been a fish virologist for about seven
years,
Joy Blue (03:26):
Okay.
Melissa White (03:27):
and then four years previous to that, I was
still in the Fish Health lab asa microbiologist.
Joy Blue (03:32):
Okay.
Wow.
What have been some of yourbiggest learning curves?
Like what has been surprising toyou?
Melissa White (03:39):
Honestly it was just working with these huge
salmon that are, 20, some of'em,20, 30 pounds.
That's a lot bigger than a tinylittle
Joy Blue (03:47):
Little yeast And clickers
Melissa White (03:49):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (03:49):
So when you work with a fish, what does that mean?
Melissa White (03:52):
So I'm in a diagnostic lab.
And so I really study the fishpathogens and not the fish, but
we will go out to, if there'slike a fish die off or something
like that in nature or at ahatchery, we have a lot of
hatcheries out here in thePacific Northwest to make sure
that the populations of Salmonaslike don't go extinct.
(04:15):
So we'll go out and try todiagnose, see what's going on.
And if it's a parasite orbacteria, it's fairly easy to
diagnose just with like amicroscope, a regular light
microscope.
But viruses are so small youcan't just see them with a
regular microscope.
There are microscopes withhigher resolution and more power
(04:39):
that you can, but it's not, it'svery expensive and not
reasonable to use that as ascreening mechanism.
Joy Blue (04:47):
Interesting.
Melissa White (04:48):
So what we do if we suspect a virus or if we're
just screening a population forvirus, is use a technique called
cell culture.
And so that is taking healthycells that you are culturing in
controlled conditions, so you'regrowing them up in a flask or a
(05:11):
plate and you know what thehealthy cells do, and then you
put the sample that you suspecthas virus in it
Joy Blue (05:20):
Yep.
Melissa White (05:21):
in with the cells and see what the effect is.
If it doesn't do anything, thereis no evidence of virus.
And if it kills the cells orchanges them in some way, then
that's called a cytopathiceffect.
And you might have a virusthere,
Joy Blue (05:38):
It feels like you're a mad scientist.
Do you sometimes step back andlaugh evilly when things work or
don't work?
Melissa White (05:44):
Uh, no, But when I tell stories to friends, they
do so
Joy Blue (05:50):
appropriate.
You're just over here casuallylike, Yeah, whatever.
It's fine.
Yeah.
But
Melissa White (05:56):
The other day I said to my therapist that I had
to go to a spawn and shecouldn't stop laughing.
She didn't know what to think ofthat.
Joy Blue (06:04):
what does that mean?
Melissa White (06:07):
That's exactly what she said.
Joy Blue (06:09):
I don't understand I have so many things popping into
my head of what it could be, andit looks like fish dancing
around a bonfire for somereason.
Melissa White (06:17):
Then, In her mind they had like little devil
horns.
Joy Blue (06:21):
Oh, okay, cool.
Like spawn of the devil.
Yeah.
Okay.
Melissa White (06:24):
really just collecting some ovarian fluid.
And I'm making it worse, aren'tI?
Joy Blue (06:29):
Don't stop.
Keep going.
Melissa White (06:34):
You know, you collect ovarian fluid, you
collect some tissues, that virusare mostly present if it's gonna
be there, and then we take'emback to the lab and it's a two
week process to get the resultsmost of the time.
Joy Blue (06:46):
Wow.
Melissa White (06:47):
But yeah.
In that case of spawning, we'rejust monitoring where virus is
in the state and.
It goes into managementdecisions on like if we do
detect a virus in a small fit,like we don't wanna transport
that to a place that has neverseen virus before or that
(07:09):
particular strain of
Joy Blue (07:11):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
Melissa White (07:12):
So yeah, I have a weird job,
Joy Blue (07:15):
I love this for you.
I just have so many questionsand still the fish are dancing
around the bonfire in my head.
Melissa White (07:21):
Yeah that's a good image.
Joy Blue (07:24):
dancing on your tail.
That's just, I don't know.
Does that hurt?
It's better than flopping onyour side.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Is there awe connected to yourjob?
What keeps you in it?
What keeps your attention?
Melissa White (07:36):
Yeah I would say yes, definitely.
So many times when I'm scanningthrough these samples, we don't
see a ton of virus, thankgoodness.
But then when you do, there isthat moment of like, ah, like
this is new, this is exciting.
What does this mean?
And most of the time I have anidea based on what that
(07:58):
cytopathic effect looks like,what the temperature was like,
the history of the stuff of whatthe virus is.
But there's definitely timeswhere it could be a new virus
and then we have to figure itout.
And it's a mystery.
And I think that's what alwaysdrew me to science in the first
(08:20):
place.
I think, you know, in, in highschool, I mean I still like
science, but I, you're presentedof like, here's this complete
picture of everything.
And then when I moved intoCollege, then it's like, oh
wait, we really know verylittle.
We know a lot more than we usedto, but there's still just huge
(08:43):
areas where it's unknown.
Joy Blue (08:46):
So much room for wonder.
Melissa White (08:48):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (08:48):
So what is the process from identifying a virus to
figuring it out?
That sounds like you're NancyDrew in some ways of like trying
to find the connections, tryingto find what's familiar.
Do you have software that says,Oh, this looks like this.
Or how do you start down thepath of figuring that out?
Melissa White (09:11):
Yeah, I think a lot of times, and when I'm
training someone on this, it'slike you kind of just have to
look through tons and tons ofcells to see what normal is
because there's a whole range ofwhat normally happens in these
cell lines.
And at a certain point, you'llknow when something looks off.
(09:31):
One of the viruses that I dealwith the most, it is a
rhabdovirus.
Which everyone's probably heardof rabies.
That's a rhabdovirus.
So this is a fish rhabdovirus,and it causes the healthy cells
to swell up and almost look likegrapes.
And then at a certain point, thevirus will multiply inside the
(09:54):
cells so much that it will thensplice and then the virion, the
little virus particles can gointo all the neighboring cells.
And so it's a pretty drasticeffect.
And with that particular virus,it's our most common, if I've
seen it in an area, in a river,you know, every year for the
(10:16):
last 10 years, when it pops up,I'm not that surprised.
We still have to confirm thatthough.
And so at that point I wouldtake some of that sample and do
a PCR which probably in the daysof covid, a lot of people have
heard of PCR testing.
It's basically a molecular testthat targets a certain portion
(10:40):
of the gene.
And if you can amplify that inPCR that confirms that, yes,
what you thought was this virusis this virus, because those,
the target is so specific thatit amplify any other virus out
there,
Joy Blue (10:56):
Interesting.
Melissa White (10:57):
and then you have to take it a step further and
sequence it, which we send thatoff.
I don't do that myself.
You can have many differentvariations of the same virus,
and they affect different fishdifferently.
So it can become a littlecomplicated if you have an
(11:19):
outbreak, you know what you dowith those results.
And as a fish health specialistand fish virologist, we give
recommendations.
But then really above that it's,managers of the program that
make the final decision on ifthose fish can be transported to
this other area or what happensto them.
Joy Blue (11:40):
Sure.
So you find these viruses in thefish, but what is the life cycle
of that virus?
Where is it introduced?
What are its effects down theline?
What's that look like?
Melissa White (11:53):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Some of that is not known.
So I'll talk about the specificvirus again.
It's called IHNV, InfectiousHematopoietic Necrosis Virus.
I mostly deal with salmoneds andchinook salmon.
There's, as adults, they swim upriver back to where they were
hatched and somehow they cansense, like whether it's the
(12:17):
amino acid composition in thewater, somehow they can get back
to where they know that they'resupposed to start the next
generation.
And then those fish die afterthey have laid their eggs or
they age out.
And some of those fish can bringback virus to the rivers and
(12:39):
then they're constantly sheddingit into the water.
And so then small juvenile fishcan pick that up.
And so it's horizontal transfer.
And then it's just, you know,those fish can swim out.
Every fish, everything thatthey're passing on the way,
there's a chance that they'regonna pass it.
(12:59):
And so that's really how itkeeps going.
This particular virus can stayviable for quite a while, like a
month in the water as well.
I think at 15 degrees Celsius,then it can just hang out.
But there.
studies that show that a leechcan be a host for it as well.
(13:21):
And so if you have otherorganisms that are potentially
this host, then yeah, you'rejust never really going to get
completely rid of it.
Joy Blue (13:30):
So in the face of something that is gray and hairy
and gnarly, and you don't reallyknow where it comes from or
where does it go, your job isjust monitoring?
Melissa White (13:42):
It's monitoring and making sure that as an
organization we don't add towhat nature's doing already.
Joy Blue (13:51):
So there's a part of me that's like, it's a virus, it
should go away.
But that's not what I'm hearingyou say.
Like, We're not introducing morethings into the environment to
mitigate the virus orcountermeasures.
You're purely just seeking tounderstand.
Melissa White (14:12):
Well, We're seeking to understand and
control in the ways that we cancontrol it.
Cuz we're never going to get ridof it.
I mean, That would be great ifwe could, because especially for
a fish virus, there's notreatment that we can give a
group a fish after they comedown with it.
And even in a hatchery settingwhere we could, you know, give
(14:34):
them a treatment for a bacterialinfection or parasitic
infection, there's just nothingyou can do for a virus.
So it's in wild fish.
A lot of our situations thatwe've had are, because fish get
above a hatchery intake, andthen they're shedding the virus
(14:54):
into the water.
And unfortunately, hatcheriesare, I mean, you have a lot of
fish you know, high densitythey're gonna just, yeah.
So they're just gonna spreadwhatever they have around.
And the best thing you can do isto avoid it to begin with, but
we're realistic and know thatthat's not always what's going
to happen.
It's being passed around innature.
(15:18):
And one of our goals is like notto put it out there in higher
number than we should.
Yeah.
Joy Blue (15:26):
From a layman's perspective, I'm sitting here
listening to you being like,essentially it is what it is.
We're seeking to understand anddo the best we can with what we
have, which is a surprisinglybalanced approach to so many
things that I don't necessarilyhear everywhere.
(15:46):
Like it doesn't sound likeyou're scrambling for control.
It doesn't sound like, you know,you're taking action, which then
has ripple effects down the linethat, Oh, we didn't know about
that later.
It's just so interesting to meto hear, like for some reason,
my mind is blown of like, y'allare literally seeking to
(16:06):
understand, letting whathappens, happens, but you're
observing, doing the best youcan with what you have.
Trying to keep the informationout there.
It sounds like you're doing anamazing public service.
Melissa White (16:18):
Thank you.
Joy Blue (16:19):
Is that accurate?
Melissa White (16:20):
I would say that's accurate with viruses
that are known to us and thathave been around for a while.
I will say that like if new onespop up in aquaculture sometimes
things can get a little chaoticthen.
Trying to figure out what thisis to begin with.
(16:41):
Trying to figure out is it ourresponsibility to euthanize a
stock so it doesn't spread ifit's bad enough.
there have been situations wherepeople have had to make bad
calls and hard calls.
So It's not always as calm andcollected as you made it seem.
Most of the time it is though.
Joy Blue (17:01):
That's so interesting.
Melissa White (17:02):
But I, yeah, I just wanted to throw that out
there, that there are uniquecases where everyone's like,
Okay, like this is a new virus.
We don't know what it's going todo.
And again, it's like gettingmore data monitoring, There are
different research groups.
I'm not really in researchanymore.
Most of my job is purelydiagnostic.
Joy Blue (17:22):
Fascinating.
Melissa White (17:23):
I mean, Those groups are important to, to try
to figure out like, we have thisnew virus we also have this, you
know, historical important groupof fish.
how do we protect them?
Joy Blue (17:36):
Yeah.
That's so interesting.
Okay, so when you're gatheringthese cell cultures and you're
mining your data, are youspending a lot of time outside?
Are you catching fish?
Are you a master angler?
Are you a fly fisher?
Are you, No.
Okay.
That was very glamorized in myhead.
Melissa White (17:56):
am not I would say during different times of
the year, I have field days.
And field days to me are likegoing to a facility.
It's not like actually out inthe field.
Sometimes we do get rareopportunities where we're doing
more wild fish work, but yeah,maybe three to four times a
month.
(18:17):
We have other positions thatduring spawning season, they're
out four days a week, 10 to 12hour days.
I mean, it, there's a lot ofcollecting samples
Joy Blue (18:27):
Yeah.
Melissa White (18:27):
and yeah, in a hatchery setting the samples are
basically like there for us tocollect.
We're not out catching fish oranything.
The adults come back, they'reheld in ponds until they're
ready to spawn.
And then as they're taking theeggs, then, you know, we just
have a little Dixie cup, collectsome eggs.
Joy Blue (18:50):
Who knew a Dixie Cup could be a scientific tool?
Melissa White (18:53):
I know and then we use a syringe, get some of
the liquid out, and then put theeggs back in with the others,
and then that only, that littlesyringe comes back to the lab
with us,
Joy Blue (19:03):
So interesting.
Time period wise, from gatheringthe sample to your conclusions
on that sample, typically, howlong is that?
Melissa White (19:13):
It's a two week minimum.
Joy Blue (19:15):
Okay.
Melissa White (19:16):
Because once the sample gets onto cells, you
know, some viruses are reallyquick and you can see the
cytopathic effect in 24 hoursand some could take two weeks.
Because we're dealing with thetypes of samples we are,
sometimes there's contaminationor toxicity to the cells.
And so at that point you kinda,you have to filter out your
(19:40):
sample or dilute it out andstart the process over again on
new healthy, fresh cells.
And so I would say two weeksminimum.
Um, Sometimes it's three to fourweeks depending on what we see.
Now once I see what I think isIHNV that will happen at about
(20:02):
day five or six, I can go aheadand do the molecular PCR testing
right away.
And so that takes a day.
Joy Blue (20:10):
Sure.
Melissa White (20:11):
And then I can have a confirmation pretty
quick.
But if something does not haveevidence of virus, we let it go
the full two weeks.
And, you know, if something is anew novel virus, it might take a
month to get to the bottom of itbecause, We've never seen it
before.
And so you're talking to yourcolleagues in different areas,
(20:32):
different agencies, like, Hey,here's what I saw.
Here's the temperature.
Here's how long, here's whenCytopathic effects started.
Do you have any ideas on whatthis could be?
And yeah,
Joy Blue (20:45):
What a cool job.
What's one thing you want peopleto walk away from this podcast
with?
Melissa White (20:50):
Viruses are cool and we should respect them.
Joy Blue (20:55):
What does respect of a virus look like?
Melissa White (20:57):
we could make it about the pandemic, but like
they have.
I was gonna say a mind of theirown, but like that's not true.
They're not doing one thing oranother.
Like based on
Joy Blue (21:08):
Yeah, they don't have free will.
Melissa White (21:10):
Yeah, they don't have free will.
But I think the respect is likethey're gonna do what they're
gonna do and just because wewant to believe it or not,
doesn't change anything.
All organisms have a virus,right?
Like some virus that's going toeither harm or hurt them.
And we also have tons of virusesthat do nothing to us and it's
(21:33):
beneficial.
So in some ways, but
Joy Blue (21:36):
Respect the virus,
Melissa White (21:37):
respect the virus.
Joy Blue (21:39):
All right.
This has been amazing.
Thank you for sharing your nerdwith us.
Melissa White (21:45):
Thank you.
Joy Blue (21:46):
My mind is I still just have so many questions and
there's still fish dancingaround a bonfire, but it's fine.
Thank you so much.
Melissa White (21:53):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Joy Blue (21:55):
So here we are.
Never did I ever think that Iwould have the opportunity to
know about or even interview afish virologist, and now you all
have met one too! Melissa, thankyou for jumping on the call with
me, for sharing the passion ofyour work and for the timely
reminder to respect viruses.
(22:17):
I love how your nerd shows andcomes to life.
If you've got a flavor of nerdthat you want me to celebrate, I
would love to hear all about it.
So go ahead and email me atherewearethepodcast@gmail.com,
and tell me everything.
I love taking time to sit andmake space for nerd to be
celebrated.
If you really like this podcastand wanna financially support
(22:40):
what I'm doing, head on over topatreon.com, search for Here We
Are The Podcast, and sign up forone of the many beautifully
written support tiers that I'mvery proud of.
So until next week, don't forgetthat curiosity wins and the
world needs more nerds.
Bye.
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