Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joy Blue (00:11):
Welcome to Here We Are.
The podcast where we celebratethe beauty of being a nerd by
learning about nerdy things fromfellow nerds.
I'm your host, Joy Blue.
Today's guest is a close friendof mine.
Brie and I were introduced toAshley last year through a
mutual friend and have quicklydeveloped a friendship that is
not only deep, but a lot of fun.
(00:32):
There's so many more things Icould say here, but we talk
about it in this interview.
So without further ado, here'smy friend, Ashley, to talk with
us about the goodness offriendship.
Ashley Xu (00:43):
hi I'm Ashley and I am Joy's friend.
Love being her friend and Brie'sfriend.
I am also a software developerfor work.
And then a ton of other thingsfor fun.
I like to sew.
I like to knit.
I recently got into doing Legokits.
That's been fun.
Joy Blue (01:02):
Yes, you did.
Ashley Xu (01:04):
I feel like,
Joy Blue (01:05):
one at my house a couple weeks ago.
Ashley Xu (01:08):
oh my gosh, the Minecraft hit before playing
Minecraft with you.
It was epic.
I loved getting
Joy Blue (01:13):
That was such a good day.
Ashley Xu (01:14):
it was, thanks for including me on Journey.
I loved it.
Joy Blue (01:17):
Of course.
What do you wanna nerd out abouttoday?
Ashley Xu (01:21):
Oh my gosh.
I would love to talk aboutfriendships today.
It's been on the top of my mindfor a long time.
Joy Blue (01:27):
Okay, let's start with a definition.
How do you define friendship?
What does it mean to you?
Ashley Xu (01:33):
Oh gosh.
So for me, friendship is aboutconnecting with people and
spending time with people andputting in dedicated effort and
showing people that I care aboutthem and receiving the same from
them.
And what do you definefriendship.
Joy Blue (01:52):
I think I define friendship as a non-judgmental
place to be seen and understood.
Ashley Xu (01:56):
I like that.
I feel like I have to, I justmade it up too.
Joy Blue (02:01):
Great.
Yeah, I mean there's been a lotof conversations I've had
recently about the beauty ofbeing in places where you don't
have to explain yourself.
Ashley Xu (02:12):
Oh, tell me more about that.
I wanna hear about it.
Joy Blue (02:14):
So it's no secret that I'm gay, married to Brie.
It's wonderful.
It's been interesting becausethe gay queer experience of love
is often different than thehetero experience of love.
So Brie and I went really fast.
We were married within sixmonths of knowing each other and
(02:35):
to a lot of people that waslike, Oh my gosh, you're moving
so fast.
What is going on?
But yet, in the queer community,that's normal.
Nobody blinks an eye at that.
So to be in the presence ofother queer people like myself
who all we have to say is, yeah,we met in January and we got
(02:58):
married in June, and they'relike, me too.
And that's all you have to say.
Like it's the power of me too.
I don't have to defend myself ortell you why I am the way I am.
Like friendship to me is to beable to show up in these spaces
where if I explain myself, it'sbecause of curiosity, not
(03:19):
because of defending what I'vedone.
Ashley Xu (03:22):
Oh, absolutely.
I think it's so important tohave people in your life who
accept you as you are and arecurious about you, rather than
needing you to to be a certainperson or in a certain box that
they may have placed you in.
That can be challenging,especially if people have known
you for a long period of timetoo.
Joy Blue (03:40):
Yeah.
I mean, part of friendship isalso protecting my own agency,
my own ability to stand up formyself to do as I see right.
And also allowing you theopportunity to do the same.
Ashley Xu (03:55):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Joy Blue (03:57):
part of what's hard about adulting is because, all
of us have different experiencesand I might see something you
don't, and I can see, oh, 12steps down the path.
Here's how this is gonna go.
But if you're not in a place tohear that, it's not my place to
tell you.
And so then just to sit thereand be like, I allow you, your
agency to make your owndecision, just because I
(04:20):
predicted that it might do onething doesn't mean it's going
to.
I'm gonna trust that you knowbest for you.
Ashley Xu (04:26):
I love that.
Yeah, that's something I feellike I have also developed over
time, like trying to give myopinion less or like think about
what impacts things might havefor people and just letting them
experience their life.
And for me, I feel likefriendship is like about really
accepting a person where theyare and how they are at that
(04:49):
moment and not
Joy Blue (04:50):
Hmm.
Ashley Xu (04:51):
Really inserting your own opinion into their lives.
It's important to me.
I feel like it sounds like it'simportant to you too.
Joy Blue (04:57):
And I think that's a reason why we resonate.
Ashley Xu (05:00):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I feel like we can just come aswe are and be the people that we
are and we don't really need topush our own opinions, thoughts,
ideas on people.
But I love hearing youropinions, thoughts, and ideas.
I'm always so curious.
Joy Blue (05:17):
Same.
What has your journey withfriendship been?
Ashley Xu (05:21):
It's been.
a ride.
I feel like as a person who isalways in recovery for
codependency due, due to mybackground I feel like
friendship and how I've thoughtof it has changed drastically
over time.
I feel like, with my backgroundof not being super close to my
family for various reasons, Ifeel like I've always placed a
(05:42):
huge importance on friendships.
And the people who I've met inmy life haven't always felt the
same way.
That's valid.
Like they can have their ownopinions, thoughts, and ideas
about it.
And I feel like it's been hardfor me to come to the
realization that some peoplejust don't resonate with me in
the way that the friendship Iwould like to have at least.
(06:03):
But I feel like I've.
With relationships, I now kindof hold them more in my palm
rather than with like trying tohold them in my fist where they
try to escape, I know, I feellike I have changed a lot and my
ideas about friendships havechanged a lot and I feel like
for me it's more about havingshared moments of joy with
(06:26):
people and really getting toknow their inner spirits.
what about for you?
Joy Blue (06:30):
I resonate a lot with what you said.
I grew up with the thought, I'mnot quite sure where I got it,
but I grew up with the thoughtof I need to be friends with
everybody.
And so that landed me in a placewhere, with codependency in my
background, I then felt the needto take care of these people and
their feelings.
(06:51):
Which part of codependency istaking care of someone else
without them asking.
Without their permission.
It's, I need you to be okay so Ican be okay
Ashley Xu (07:01):
Oh yeah, and it's not fair to the other
Joy Blue (07:03):
not fair and it's exhausting.
Ashley Xu (07:06):
Oh, it's so exhausting for both people.
Joy Blue (07:08):
So then I would find myself in these positions with
people who idolized me and putme on a pedestal, which then
drove me nuts cuz I'm like, Ijust need to be human here, but
I can't cuz I feel like I'msupposed to take care of you.
So then I just found myselfincredibly lonely because I was
just surrounded by people whoneeded something from me, not
(07:29):
people who, it was a mutualtwo-way friendship.
So I've had some pretty bigmilestones along the way.
Like in college, my freshmanyear, roommates like Hannah, who
was on this podcast a while ago,she would look at me and be
like, let me take care of you.
And I'd be like no.
Nobody takes care of me.
(07:49):
And she'd look at me and belike, Joyful.
And when she said it like thatwith her eyebrow up, like, o
okay, fine, you win.
But like that was the beginningof my journey of letting myself
be vulnerable.
And so much of friendship ismeeting someone in their
vulnerability
Ashley Xu (08:09):
Oh, absolutely.
And not needing to fix this.
Joy Blue (08:12):
Yeah, I don't need to fix you.
I don't need to have the answersfor you, but I can hold space
with you.
Ashley Xu (08:17):
I think that is the most important part of
friendship for me.
Just being present.
Maybe validating someone'sfeelings and caring about them,
but you don't need to do muchelse, truly, from my
perspective, at least.
Joy Blue (08:30):
Yeah.
What have been some of yourmajor forks in the road with how
you view friendship?
Ashley Xu (08:37):
I mean, I think the most major problems I've had
with how I view friendships stemmostly just from my childhood of
growing up with kind of likeemotionally immature like
parenting sort of situations.
And I think I thought certainbehaviors, thoughts, ideas were
(08:57):
normal and like healthy, whereasmaybe they weren't actually.
And I found myself acting inways that were not the way that
I wish that I would have acted.
And then also I accepted thatbehavior from other people.
And, it it can wear on you likewhen you care so much about a
person, but also allow people todo things that are hurtful.
(09:19):
And then when I struggle withco-dependency, like I struggle
to really talk about the thingsthat were impacting me.
So I would allow people to crossmy boundaries without really
talking about it.
And then I would get reallyupset and blow up and yeah, that
wasn't fair to the other people,wasn't fair to me.
So I feel like I understand myboundaries a lot better now and
(09:41):
understand what I need and want.
Um, So that's been a big journeyfor me in growth.
What has been some of the forksin the road for you?
With friendships?
Joy Blue (09:51):
well it was interesting while you were
talking, the things that keptcoming up for me were like
boundaries.
Like for sake of definition,boundaries is telling somebody
what you're going to do, nottelling somebody else what to
do.
And also I just kept hearing thethrough line of self-worth.
Ashley Xu (10:09):
Oh, absolutely.
Joy Blue (10:10):
healthy friendships come and like change in line
with your own belief andself-worth.
So like the less I thought ofmyself, the more I allowed
myself to be walked over.
So I resonate so much witheverything you said.
And there's a part where like, Iremember people looking at me
(10:33):
and saying like, you gotta quitrunning so hard.
You need to take care ofyourself.
And I used that running so hardas a badge of honor.
Like, no, I don't need anybody.
I don't need space.
I don't need to take care ofmyself.
What are you talking about?
But really, I look back on allthose people along the way who
(10:53):
were like, gave me littlewarning signals.
And what they were really sayingis, you're worth caring for too.
Ashley Xu (11:00):
Absolutely.
Joy Blue (11:02):
It's not just about me caring for other people in my
friendships, it's about alsoreceiving care, which is really
hard.
Oddly enough.
Ashley Xu (11:12):
So hard.
It's probably one of my toughestlife journeys is to receive care
and attention and time.
What has it been like kindafeeling your own internal
perception of what your worth ischange over time.
Joy Blue (11:25):
That's a very fascinating question.
I mean, so much of it comes downto can I believe that's true of
me?
Who benefits if I don't believethat's true of me?
And what does that mean?
So like when I started decidingthat I was worth more, I started
realizing there are spacesaround me that I am actively
(11:47):
participating in that are notaccepting of who I am, as I am.
Like we're coming back to thetheme of friendship and like I
want to be in a space where Idon't have to explain everything
about myself.
I don't have to justify who Iam, and so as I started finding
healthier and more progressivefriend circles, part of that
(12:11):
goes hand in hand with my owninner journey of realizing that
I am enough just as I am.
Have you experienced that too?
Ashley Xu (12:18):
Yeah.
I feel like I used to viewletting people cross my
boundaries as like the admissionprice for being in a community
or being in a relationship withsomeone.
And that was,
Joy Blue (12:33):
price.
Ashley Xu (12:35):
yeah.
Yeah.
Like I gave up certainboundaries.
I gave up.
I just like bit my tongue aboutcertain feelings to have
relationships with peoplebecause I cared for them so
much.
And while I might even stillcare for those people, I
realized that my own inner peacewas much more valuable than
(12:57):
having those relationships.
And that was such, that was ahard realization.
Probably one of the hardestrealizations of my life.
Joy Blue (13:05):
yeah, absolutely.
It's getting to the thresholdthat is so important to cross,
of I will no longer allow thecost to be me.
Ashley Xu (13:15):
Absolutely.
And I realized at a certainpoint that even if people did
unkind things, said unkindthings, whatever, what was worse
was that, I was continuing thatrelationship.
That I was allowing it tohappen.
So, I don't blame anyone who Ihave had those relationships
(13:37):
with.
I just, I feel like I didn'tvalue my own feelings enough to
set boundaries well or to reallyunderstand what they needed.
Joy Blue (13:45):
Isn't it interesting how self-worth goes hand in hand
with healthy relationships?
Ashley Xu (13:50):
Oh my gosh.
The biggest component, honestly,
Joy Blue (13:55):
I don't know if I've necessarily put those together
in one sentence until thisconversation.
Like I've known it inside, butit's just fascinating to see it
all laid out on the table.
Ashley Xu (14:06):
Oh, absolutely, and I feel like holding more space and
understanding and kindness formyself has also allowed me to
show up more for other people inthat same way, which I didn't
expect, honestly.
I thought spending time onyourself was selfish.
I thought, doing self-care sortof things like actual self-care,
(14:26):
like taking care of your bodyand your mental health and just
like having joy and fun.
I thought that was selfish and Iwould do everything to try to
avoid that.
But I've realized over time thatloving myself more has helped me
to love other people more.
Joy Blue (14:44):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
When I take care of myself, I'mable to show up with you better.
Ashley Xu (14:50):
Oh, absolutely.
How have you noticed yourrelationships with people have
changed as you started reallytaking care of your mind, body,
and your spirit?
Joy Blue (15:01):
That's such a profound question.
I had a tipping point where Irealized I led first with what I
could do for you, and the momentthat I could no longer do
something for you, I lost mypurpose.
And so then I was like, what?
Why am I even here?
If you don't need me, then Iguess I'm disposable.
(15:24):
Believing that my worth was onlyin what I could contribute.
So there's been a pretty bigjourney in people pushing back
at me and being like, no, I justI just like you.
That's all.
And I'm like, but I've done allof these myriad of things for
you.
Don't you want me to do thoseagain?
Like, maybe you'll like me whenI do more things for you.
And to have present people,grounded people, in my life be
(15:48):
like, no, I don't need you to doanything.
Just be here with me.
Ashley Xu (15:53):
You're valuable as who you are as a person.
Just right now without having todo anything.
Joy Blue (16:00):
That's beautiful and so hard to believe sometimes.
Ashley Xu (16:04):
It's it.
Sometimes impossible
Joy Blue (16:07):
I know because the message that's that so many of
us have been brought up in isyou are only worth something if
you're contributing.
That's what capitalism is.
I need you to contribute.
The only way you have monetaryvalue is when you're doing
something.
So to intentionally buck thesystem and be friends with
(16:28):
somebody, because I see thebeauty in you, and you see the
beauty in me, there isn'tcapitalist value in that but
there is human value in that.
That's what I wanna do.
I wanna walk around and I wannasay I see you as the human you
are.
Thanks for being here.
I see your inherent goodness.
Ashley Xu (16:46):
Absolutely.
I feel so much joy in creatingcommunity with friends.
I feel like that's been the mostlife changing thing in my life
the last couple of years.
Just truly showing up for peopleand trusting that they want to
show up for me and not puttingmy thoughts, feelings, ideas on
what that sort of means.
(17:07):
I dunno.
I just like people and I feellike it is kind of
anti-capitalist to just enjoyspending time with people.
It's not about the money thatyou're spending or, any sort of
like appearances.
It's just about spending timewith humans and feeling that
connection that drives us.
Joy Blue (17:23):
it's not about a transactional benefit, it's
about an interpersonalconnection
Ashley Xu (17:29):
Absolutely
Joy Blue (17:30):
at the end of the day, all of us just want to know that
somebody sees us and we matter.
And that's what the essence offriendship is.
I see you and you matter.
Thanks for being in the worldwith me.
Ashley Xu (17:42):
I love that.
I really need to chew on that.
I think mentally that'sbeautiful.
Joy Blue (17:47):
What have you noticed lately, or what have you been
trying lately with friendshipsthat you of a couple years ago
might not have been able to do?
Ashley Xu (17:56):
I think I am allowing myself to be more vulnerable
with people.
I think historically I've alwaysbeen kind of transparent, right?
Like I've shared the thingsgoing on in my life, the
difficult things.
But sometimes I've reallystruggled to share the things
that I haven't fully processed.
Like I can share things if I'vegone over them in therapy and
(18:17):
really thought about it and cansay like, oh, this stem X, Y,
and Z.
But when it comes to, havinglike a really deep emotional
feeling um, that I still haven'tfigured out how I want to, work
through, I think, traditionally,I struggle to share that.
And I feel really grateful tohave friends who hold space for
(18:39):
me to exist in all emotionalstates.
And also friends that remind meto have fun and to spark joy.
Like I feel like you and Brie inparticular are so good at
bringing just spontaneity andfun and joy.
Like you guys start singing justin the middle of cooking and you
start dancing and playing.
(19:00):
And it's brought so muchhappiness in my life.
So I appreciate you and reallyjust like the energy that you
have and like having yourfriends.
It's very pure and I love it.
Joy Blue (19:11):
Thank you and also with you, and I feel like it, it
would be doing friendship, adishonor to not put the
stipulation in place that thetype of vulnerability you're
talking about is earned.
Not everybody deserves yourunprocessed.
So what I'm hearing you say islike the transparency, I do the
(19:33):
same thing.
I know that, there are thingsI've already processed that
people are like, you're sovulnerable.
And I'm like, yeah, it doesn'treally cost me much to share
that with you.
But the type of vulnerabilitywe're talking about is earned
over time.
It is a privilege and an honorto have There's something to be
said for small steps of buildingalong the way in friendships and
(19:56):
taking incremental leaps oftrust.
I've done it before where I'vejust suddenly given somebody all
of my trust and that's givingaway my agency.
That's giving away the essenceof who I am and giving, just
giving up my power, and I don'twanna do that.
So I just wanted to clarifythat, what the type of
vulnerability we're talkingabout is mutual, is consenting,
(20:18):
and protects the agency of eachperson in this friendship.
Ashley Xu (20:23):
Absolutely.
I totally agree with that.
I feel like there are differentstages of friendship and
different levels.
And all are great and amazing.
But I think it has been sovaluable for me to be able to
just show up as my vulnerableself with the friends that have
earned it, and I reallyappreciate it and I am also
(20:45):
there for you in thosesituations.
Joy Blue (20:47):
I feel that.
What is something you wouldencourage our listeners to try?
What's something you've learnedrecently or a breakthrough you
had in thinking about orprocessing friendships?
I.
Ashley Xu (21:02):
I think I would recommend, if people are looking
for friendships to, I, it soundscheesy, but like, put yourself
out there.
There's a period of time after Imoved to the Chicago area after
the pandemic, I didn't havefriends in the area and so it
was hard to meet people.
And I, downloaded like BumbleBFFs right?
And downloading Bumble BFFs liketo make friends has truly
(21:26):
changed my life and, you knowhow I show up for myself.
Like I went on a bunch of, Iguess, friend dates, for lack of
better word, and a lot of thosepeople didn't mesh with me and
that was okay.
It was, I guess, similar todating.
But I kept trying because it wasreally important for me to find
that community.
And then I ended up meeting Jackand then through Jack I met a
(21:48):
bunch of other people, you andBrie included, and kind of
created this little community.
And I.
Feel like since I'm not superclose to my family, I feel like
it has been really nice to havethat sense of community and just
a group of people who want tospend time with other people and
(22:09):
like really the effort.
So I guess just meet peoplesometimes it's really easy to
just stay inside and to notinteract with others.
Joy Blue (22:17):
Yeah.
Believe that you're worthknowing and believe that there
are other people out there thatare also worth knowing, and it
is gonna take a little bit ofwork to get there.
And it's also possible,
Ashley Xu (22:27):
Absolutely.
What is your advice for peoplewho are looking for the
friendship connection?
Joy Blue (22:35):
I would say trust your gut.
Be in tune with yourself asyou're meeting people.
If something feels off to you,trust it.
And not for like thevilification of the other
person, but just file that andnotice it.
And if you get little pangs asyou're meeting people of like,
probably don't share all ofthat, listen to yourself.
Honor yourself in that journeyof getting to know new people
(22:58):
and of being appropriatelyvulnerable.
Not everyone deserves thefullness of who you are.
Not everyone has the honor ofholding space for the goodness
and the hugeness of who each ofus are.
And that's okay.
It doesn't mean you're too much,it just means not yet.
Ashley Xu (23:19):
Absolutely.
I love hearing about yourjourney of self-trust.
Could you tell me more aboutwhat that's been like to really
learn to trust yourself, becausethat's something I am working on
too.
Joy Blue (23:30):
Yeah, it's incredibly hard.
I grew up in a tradition ofdon't trust your body, don't
trust your emotions.
And so looking back over a lotof the hard periods of my life,
I can realize my body wasactually telling me things.
My body was telling me, don'ttrust.
My body was telling me this isnot right.
(23:52):
But I didn't know the voice ofmy body yet.
I didn't know the voice insideof me saying, this isn't good
for you.
I was trained to listen to thevoice of the authority outside
of me, not the authority insideof me.
So, so much of my journey hasbeen to be able to look back and
acknowledge those places where Ididn't listen and have
(24:14):
compassion for that version ofJoy, because she didn't know any
different.
And also apply those learningsto Joy moving forward on seeing
what different things I couldtry this time and seeing like,
oh, I think that might be my guttelling me something.
How can I take a pause andlisten to that?
How can I honor what my innerauthority is telling me?
(24:37):
Even if it means I might bedisappointing somebody outside
of me.
Ashley Xu (24:42):
Oh wow.
That's tough.
Disappointing other people issuch a big fear of mine.
And I It sounds like it wasreally hard for you to overcome
too.
Joy Blue (24:51):
It still is, but I've hit the point where I'm no
longer willing for the cost tobe me.
If it costs me compromising whoI am to be in a relationship
with somebody, I'm not.
I'm not willing to go thereanymore.
Ashley Xu (25:07):
I love seeing how much you care about yourself and
how much friendship you show foryourself and love that you show
for yourself.
That's amazing.
Joy Blue (25:15):
Thank you.
I appreciate you honoring that.
It's definitely been a journey.
This conversation has been sofun, Ashley.
Thank you for taking the time todo this with me.
Ashley Xu (25:27):
Oh, thank you for having me.
I always enjoy talking with you.
I feel like you really make methink, so thank you for having
me.
Joy Blue (25:35):
So Here We Are.
I am so glad that you all got asmall taste of the goodness that
is my friend, Ashley.
I loved our conversation today.
It was so meta in so many ways.
We talked about creating safespaces for others and ourselves.
While we were actively doingthat with each other.
(25:57):
So much of friendship iscreating space to listen.
Taking time to truly hear whatthe other person is conveying
while also receiving that inreturn.
Thank you for the gift of yourfriendship.
Ashley, I look forward tocontinuing to learn alongside
you.
If you've got a flavor of nerdthat you want me to celebrate, I
would love to hear all about it.
(26:17):
So go ahead and email me atherewearethepodcast@gmail.com
and tell me everything.
I love taking time to sit andmake space for nerd to be
celebrated.
If you really liked this podcastand want to financially support
what I'm doing head on over topatreon.com, search for here we
are the podcast and sign up forone of the many beautifully
written support tiers that I'mproud of.
(26:39):
So until next time, don't forgetthat curiosity wins.
And the world needs more nerds.
Bye
Welcome to Here We Are.
The podcast where we celebratethe beauty of being a nerd by
learning about nerdy things fromfellow nerds.
I'm your host, Joy Blue.
Today's guest is a close friendof mine.
Brie and I were introduced toAshley last year through a
mutual friend and have quicklydeveloped a friendship that is
not only deep, but a lot of fun.
(00:32):
There's so many more things Icould say here, but we talk
about it in this interview.
So without further ado, here'smy friend, Ashley, to talk with
us about the goodness offriendship.
Ashley Xu (00:43):
hi I'm Ashley and I am Joy's friend.
Love being her friend and Brie'sfriend.
I am also a software developerfor work.
And then a ton of other thingsfor fun.
I like to sew.
I like to knit.
I recently got into doing Legokits.
That's been fun.
Joy Blue (01:02):
Yes, you did.
Ashley Xu (01:04):
I feel like,
Joy Blue (01:05):
one at my house a couple weeks ago.
Ashley Xu (01:08):
oh my gosh, the Minecraft hit before playing
Minecraft with you.
It was epic.
I loved getting
Joy Blue (01:13):
That was such a good day.
Ashley Xu (01:14):
it was, thanks for including me on Journey.
I loved it.
Joy Blue (01:17):
Of course.
What do you wanna nerd out abouttoday?
Ashley Xu (01:21):
Oh my gosh.
I would love to talk aboutfriendships today.
It's been on the top of my mindfor a long time.
Joy Blue (01:27):
Okay, let's start with a definition.
How do you define friendship?
What does it mean to you?
Ashley Xu (01:33):
Oh gosh.
So for me, friendship is aboutconnecting with people and
spending time with people andputting in dedicated effort and
showing people that I care aboutthem and receiving the same from
them.
And what do you definefriendship.
Joy Blue (01:52):
I think I define friendship as a non-judgmental
place to be seen and understood.
Ashley Xu (01:56):
I like that.
I feel like I have to, I justmade it up too.
Joy Blue (02:01):
Great.
Yeah, I mean there's been a lotof conversations I've had
recently about the beauty ofbeing in places where you don't
have to explain yourself.
Ashley Xu (02:12):
Oh, tell me more about that.
I wanna hear about it.
Joy Blue (02:14):
So it's no secret that I'm gay, married to Brie.
It's wonderful.
It's been interesting becausethe gay queer experience of love
is often different than thehetero experience of love.
So Brie and I went really fast.
We were married within sixmonths of knowing each other and
(02:35):
to a lot of people that waslike, Oh my gosh, you're moving
so fast.
What is going on?
But yet, in the queer community,that's normal.
Nobody blinks an eye at that.
So to be in the presence ofother queer people like myself
who all we have to say is, yeah,we met in January and we got
(02:58):
married in June, and they'relike, me too.
And that's all you have to say.
Like it's the power of me too.
I don't have to defend myself ortell you why I am the way I am.
Like friendship to me is to beable to show up in these spaces
where if I explain myself, it'sbecause of curiosity, not
(03:19):
because of defending what I'vedone.
Ashley Xu (03:22):
Oh, absolutely.
I think it's so important tohave people in your life who
accept you as you are and arecurious about you, rather than
needing you to to be a certainperson or in a certain box that
they may have placed you in.
That can be challenging,especially if people have known
you for a long period of timetoo.
Joy Blue (03:40):
Yeah.
I mean, part of friendship isalso protecting my own agency,
my own ability to stand up formyself to do as I see right.
And also allowing you theopportunity to do the same.
Ashley Xu (03:55):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Joy Blue (03:57):
part of what's hard about adulting is because, all
of us have different experiencesand I might see something you
don't, and I can see, oh, 12steps down the path.
Here's how this is gonna go.
But if you're not in a place tohear that, it's not my place to
tell you.
And so then just to sit thereand be like, I allow you, your
agency to make your owndecision, just because I
(04:20):
predicted that it might do onething doesn't mean it's going
to.
I'm gonna trust that you knowbest for you.
Ashley Xu (04:26):
I love that.
Yeah, that's something I feellike I have also developed over
time, like trying to give myopinion less or like think about
what impacts things might havefor people and just letting them
experience their life.
And for me, I feel likefriendship is like about really
accepting a person where theyare and how they are at that
(04:49):
moment and not
Joy Blue (04:50):
Hmm.
Ashley Xu (04:51):
Really inserting your own opinion into their lives.
It's important to me.
I feel like it sounds like it'simportant to you too.
Joy Blue (04:57):
And I think that's a reason why we resonate.
Ashley Xu (05:00):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I feel like we can just come aswe are and be the people that we
are and we don't really need topush our own opinions, thoughts,
ideas on people.
But I love hearing youropinions, thoughts, and ideas.
I'm always so curious.
Joy Blue (05:17):
Same.
What has your journey withfriendship been?
Ashley Xu (05:21):
It's been.
a ride.
I feel like as a person who isalways in recovery for
codependency due, due to mybackground I feel like
friendship and how I've thoughtof it has changed drastically
over time.
I feel like, with my backgroundof not being super close to my
family for various reasons, Ifeel like I've always placed a
(05:42):
huge importance on friendships.
And the people who I've met inmy life haven't always felt the
same way.
That's valid.
Like they can have their ownopinions, thoughts, and ideas
about it.
And I feel like it's been hardfor me to come to the
realization that some peoplejust don't resonate with me in
the way that the friendship Iwould like to have at least.
(06:03):
But I feel like I've.
With relationships, I now kindof hold them more in my palm
rather than with like trying tohold them in my fist where they
try to escape, I know, I feellike I have changed a lot and my
ideas about friendships havechanged a lot and I feel like
for me it's more about havingshared moments of joy with
(06:26):
people and really getting toknow their inner spirits.
what about for you?
Joy Blue (06:30):
I resonate a lot with what you said.
I grew up with the thought, I'mnot quite sure where I got it,
but I grew up with the thoughtof I need to be friends with
everybody.
And so that landed me in a placewhere, with codependency in my
background, I then felt the needto take care of these people and
their feelings.
(06:51):
Which part of codependency istaking care of someone else
without them asking.
Without their permission.
It's, I need you to be okay so Ican be okay
Ashley Xu (07:01):
Oh yeah, and it's not fair to the other
Joy Blue (07:03):
not fair and it's exhausting.
Ashley Xu (07:06):
Oh, it's so exhausting for both people.
Joy Blue (07:08):
So then I would find myself in these positions with
people who idolized me and putme on a pedestal, which then
drove me nuts cuz I'm like, Ijust need to be human here, but
I can't cuz I feel like I'msupposed to take care of you.
So then I just found myselfincredibly lonely because I was
just surrounded by people whoneeded something from me, not
(07:29):
people who, it was a mutualtwo-way friendship.
So I've had some pretty bigmilestones along the way.
Like in college, my freshmanyear, roommates like Hannah, who
was on this podcast a while ago,she would look at me and be
like, let me take care of you.
And I'd be like no.
Nobody takes care of me.
(07:49):
And she'd look at me and belike, Joyful.
And when she said it like thatwith her eyebrow up, like, o
okay, fine, you win.
But like that was the beginningof my journey of letting myself
be vulnerable.
And so much of friendship ismeeting someone in their
vulnerability
Ashley Xu (08:09):
Oh, absolutely.
And not needing to fix this.
Joy Blue (08:12):
Yeah, I don't need to fix you.
I don't need to have the answersfor you, but I can hold space
with you.
Ashley Xu (08:17):
I think that is the most important part of
friendship for me.
Just being present.
Maybe validating someone'sfeelings and caring about them,
but you don't need to do muchelse, truly, from my
perspective, at least.
Joy Blue (08:30):
Yeah.
What have been some of yourmajor forks in the road with how
you view friendship?
Ashley Xu (08:37):
I mean, I think the most major problems I've had
with how I view friendships stemmostly just from my childhood of
growing up with kind of likeemotionally immature like
parenting sort of situations.
And I think I thought certainbehaviors, thoughts, ideas were
(08:57):
normal and like healthy, whereasmaybe they weren't actually.
And I found myself acting inways that were not the way that
I wish that I would have acted.
And then also I accepted thatbehavior from other people.
And, it it can wear on you likewhen you care so much about a
person, but also allow people todo things that are hurtful.
(09:19):
And then when I struggle withco-dependency, like I struggle
to really talk about the thingsthat were impacting me.
So I would allow people to crossmy boundaries without really
talking about it.
And then I would get reallyupset and blow up and yeah, that
wasn't fair to the other people,wasn't fair to me.
So I feel like I understand myboundaries a lot better now and
(09:41):
understand what I need and want.
Um, So that's been a big journeyfor me in growth.
What has been some of the forksin the road for you?
With friendships?
Joy Blue (09:51):
well it was interesting while you were
talking, the things that keptcoming up for me were like
boundaries.
Like for sake of definition,boundaries is telling somebody
what you're going to do, nottelling somebody else what to
do.
And also I just kept hearing thethrough line of self-worth.
Ashley Xu (10:09):
Oh, absolutely.
Joy Blue (10:10):
healthy friendships come and like change in line
with your own belief andself-worth.
So like the less I thought ofmyself, the more I allowed
myself to be walked over.
So I resonate so much witheverything you said.
And there's a part where like, Iremember people looking at me
(10:33):
and saying like, you gotta quitrunning so hard.
You need to take care ofyourself.
And I used that running so hardas a badge of honor.
Like, no, I don't need anybody.
I don't need space.
I don't need to take care ofmyself.
What are you talking about?
But really, I look back on allthose people along the way who
(10:53):
were like, gave me littlewarning signals.
And what they were really sayingis, you're worth caring for too.
Ashley Xu (11:00):
Absolutely.
Joy Blue (11:02):
It's not just about me caring for other people in my
friendships, it's about alsoreceiving care, which is really
hard.
Oddly enough.
Ashley Xu (11:12):
So hard.
It's probably one of my toughestlife journeys is to receive care
and attention and time.
What has it been like kindafeeling your own internal
perception of what your worth ischange over time.
Joy Blue (11:25):
That's a very fascinating question.
I mean, so much of it comes downto can I believe that's true of
me?
Who benefits if I don't believethat's true of me?
And what does that mean?
So like when I started decidingthat I was worth more, I started
realizing there are spacesaround me that I am actively
(11:47):
participating in that are notaccepting of who I am, as I am.
Like we're coming back to thetheme of friendship and like I
want to be in a space where Idon't have to explain everything
about myself.
I don't have to justify who Iam, and so as I started finding
healthier and more progressivefriend circles, part of that
(12:11):
goes hand in hand with my owninner journey of realizing that
I am enough just as I am.
Have you experienced that too?
Ashley Xu (12:18):
Yeah.
I feel like I used to viewletting people cross my
boundaries as like the admissionprice for being in a community
or being in a relationship withsomeone.
And that was,
Joy Blue (12:33):
price.
Ashley Xu (12:35):
yeah.
Yeah.
Like I gave up certainboundaries.
I gave up.
I just like bit my tongue aboutcertain feelings to have
relationships with peoplebecause I cared for them so
much.
And while I might even stillcare for those people, I
realized that my own inner peacewas much more valuable than
(12:57):
having those relationships.
And that was such, that was ahard realization.
Probably one of the hardestrealizations of my life.
Joy Blue (13:05):
yeah, absolutely.
It's getting to the thresholdthat is so important to cross,
of I will no longer allow thecost to be me.
Ashley Xu (13:15):
Absolutely.
And I realized at a certainpoint that even if people did
unkind things, said unkindthings, whatever, what was worse
was that, I was continuing thatrelationship.
That I was allowing it tohappen.
So, I don't blame anyone who Ihave had those relationships
(13:37):
with.
I just, I feel like I didn'tvalue my own feelings enough to
set boundaries well or to reallyunderstand what they needed.
Joy Blue (13:45):
Isn't it interesting how self-worth goes hand in hand
with healthy relationships?
Ashley Xu (13:50):
Oh my gosh.
The biggest component, honestly,
Joy Blue (13:55):
I don't know if I've necessarily put those together
in one sentence until thisconversation.
Like I've known it inside, butit's just fascinating to see it
all laid out on the table.
Ashley Xu (14:06):
Oh, absolutely, and I feel like holding more space and
understanding and kindness formyself has also allowed me to
show up more for other people inthat same way, which I didn't
expect, honestly.
I thought spending time onyourself was selfish.
I thought, doing self-care sortof things like actual self-care,
(14:26):
like taking care of your bodyand your mental health and just
like having joy and fun.
I thought that was selfish and Iwould do everything to try to
avoid that.
But I've realized over time thatloving myself more has helped me
to love other people more.
Joy Blue (14:44):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
When I take care of myself, I'mable to show up with you better.
Ashley Xu (14:50):
Oh, absolutely.
How have you noticed yourrelationships with people have
changed as you started reallytaking care of your mind, body,
and your spirit?
Joy Blue (15:01):
That's such a profound question.
I had a tipping point where Irealized I led first with what I
could do for you, and the momentthat I could no longer do
something for you, I lost mypurpose.
And so then I was like, what?
Why am I even here?
If you don't need me, then Iguess I'm disposable.
(15:24):
Believing that my worth was onlyin what I could contribute.
So there's been a pretty bigjourney in people pushing back
at me and being like, no, I justI just like you.
That's all.
And I'm like, but I've done allof these myriad of things for
you.
Don't you want me to do thoseagain?
Like, maybe you'll like me whenI do more things for you.
And to have present people,grounded people, in my life be
(15:48):
like, no, I don't need you to doanything.
Just be here with me.
Ashley Xu (15:53):
You're valuable as who you are as a person.
Just right now without having todo anything.
Joy Blue (16:00):
That's beautiful and so hard to believe sometimes.
Ashley Xu (16:04):
It's it.
Sometimes impossible
Joy Blue (16:07):
I know because the message that's that so many of
us have been brought up in isyou are only worth something if
you're contributing.
That's what capitalism is.
I need you to contribute.
The only way you have monetaryvalue is when you're doing
something.
So to intentionally buck thesystem and be friends with
(16:28):
somebody, because I see thebeauty in you, and you see the
beauty in me, there isn'tcapitalist value in that but
there is human value in that.
That's what I wanna do.
I wanna walk around and I wannasay I see you as the human you
are.
Thanks for being here.
I see your inherent goodness.
Ashley Xu (16:46):
Absolutely.
I feel so much joy in creatingcommunity with friends.
I feel like that's been the mostlife changing thing in my life
the last couple of years.
Just truly showing up for peopleand trusting that they want to
show up for me and not puttingmy thoughts, feelings, ideas on
what that sort of means.
(17:07):
I dunno.
I just like people and I feellike it is kind of
anti-capitalist to just enjoyspending time with people.
It's not about the money thatyou're spending or, any sort of
like appearances.
It's just about spending timewith humans and feeling that
connection that drives us.
Joy Blue (17:23):
it's not about a transactional benefit, it's
about an interpersonalconnection
Ashley Xu (17:29):
Absolutely
Joy Blue (17:30):
at the end of the day, all of us just want to know that
somebody sees us and we matter.
And that's what the essence offriendship is.
I see you and you matter.
Thanks for being in the worldwith me.
Ashley Xu (17:42):
I love that.
I really need to chew on that.
I think mentally that'sbeautiful.
Joy Blue (17:47):
What have you noticed lately, or what have you been
trying lately with friendshipsthat you of a couple years ago
might not have been able to do?
Ashley Xu (17:56):
I think I am allowing myself to be more vulnerable
with people.
I think historically I've alwaysbeen kind of transparent, right?
Like I've shared the thingsgoing on in my life, the
difficult things.
But sometimes I've reallystruggled to share the things
that I haven't fully processed.
Like I can share things if I'vegone over them in therapy and
(18:17):
really thought about it and cansay like, oh, this stem X, Y,
and Z.
But when it comes to, havinglike a really deep emotional
feeling um, that I still haven'tfigured out how I want to, work
through, I think, traditionally,I struggle to share that.
And I feel really grateful tohave friends who hold space for
(18:39):
me to exist in all emotionalstates.
And also friends that remind meto have fun and to spark joy.
Like I feel like you and Brie inparticular are so good at
bringing just spontaneity andfun and joy.
Like you guys start singing justin the middle of cooking and you
start dancing and playing.
(19:00):
And it's brought so muchhappiness in my life.
So I appreciate you and reallyjust like the energy that you
have and like having yourfriends.
It's very pure and I love it.
Joy Blue (19:11):
Thank you and also with you, and I feel like it, it
would be doing friendship, adishonor to not put the
stipulation in place that thetype of vulnerability you're
talking about is earned.
Not everybody deserves yourunprocessed.
So what I'm hearing you say islike the transparency, I do the
(19:33):
same thing.
I know that, there are thingsI've already processed that
people are like, you're sovulnerable.
And I'm like, yeah, it doesn'treally cost me much to share
that with you.
But the type of vulnerabilitywe're talking about is earned
over time.
It is a privilege and an honorto have There's something to be
said for small steps of buildingalong the way in friendships and
(19:56):
taking incremental leaps oftrust.
I've done it before where I'vejust suddenly given somebody all
of my trust and that's givingaway my agency.
That's giving away the essenceof who I am and giving, just
giving up my power, and I don'twanna do that.
So I just wanted to clarifythat, what the type of
vulnerability we're talkingabout is mutual, is consenting,
(20:18):
and protects the agency of eachperson in this friendship.
Ashley Xu (20:23):
Absolutely.
I totally agree with that.
I feel like there are differentstages of friendship and
different levels.
And all are great and amazing.
But I think it has been sovaluable for me to be able to
just show up as my vulnerableself with the friends that have
earned it, and I reallyappreciate it and I am also
(20:45):
there for you in thosesituations.
Joy Blue (20:47):
I feel that.
What is something you wouldencourage our listeners to try?
What's something you've learnedrecently or a breakthrough you
had in thinking about orprocessing friendships?
I.
Ashley Xu (21:02):
I think I would recommend, if people are looking
for friendships to, I, it soundscheesy, but like, put yourself
out there.
There's a period of time after Imoved to the Chicago area after
the pandemic, I didn't havefriends in the area and so it
was hard to meet people.
And I, downloaded like BumbleBFFs right?
And downloading Bumble BFFs liketo make friends has truly
(21:26):
changed my life and, you knowhow I show up for myself.
Like I went on a bunch of, Iguess, friend dates, for lack of
better word, and a lot of thosepeople didn't mesh with me and
that was okay.
It was, I guess, similar todating.
But I kept trying because it wasreally important for me to find
that community.
And then I ended up meeting Jackand then through Jack I met a
(21:48):
bunch of other people, you andBrie included, and kind of
created this little community.
And I.
Feel like since I'm not superclose to my family, I feel like
it has been really nice to havethat sense of community and just
a group of people who want tospend time with other people and
(22:09):
like really the effort.
So I guess just meet peoplesometimes it's really easy to
just stay inside and to notinteract with others.
Joy Blue (22:17):
Yeah.
Believe that you're worthknowing and believe that there
are other people out there thatare also worth knowing, and it
is gonna take a little bit ofwork to get there.
And it's also possible,
Ashley Xu (22:27):
Absolutely.
What is your advice for peoplewho are looking for the
friendship connection?
Joy Blue (22:35):
I would say trust your gut.
Be in tune with yourself asyou're meeting people.
If something feels off to you,trust it.
And not for like thevilification of the other
person, but just file that andnotice it.
And if you get little pangs asyou're meeting people of like,
probably don't share all ofthat, listen to yourself.
Honor yourself in that journeyof getting to know new people
(22:58):
and of being appropriatelyvulnerable.
Not everyone deserves thefullness of who you are.
Not everyone has the honor ofholding space for the goodness
and the hugeness of who each ofus are.
And that's okay.
It doesn't mean you're too much,it just means not yet.
Ashley Xu (23:19):
Absolutely.
I love hearing about yourjourney of self-trust.
Could you tell me more aboutwhat that's been like to really
learn to trust yourself, becausethat's something I am working on
too.
Joy Blue (23:30):
Yeah, it's incredibly hard.
I grew up in a tradition ofdon't trust your body, don't
trust your emotions.
And so looking back over a lotof the hard periods of my life,
I can realize my body wasactually telling me things.
My body was telling me, don'ttrust.
My body was telling me this isnot right.
(23:52):
But I didn't know the voice ofmy body yet.
I didn't know the voice insideof me saying, this isn't good
for you.
I was trained to listen to thevoice of the authority outside
of me, not the authority insideof me.
So, so much of my journey hasbeen to be able to look back and
acknowledge those places where Ididn't listen and have
(24:14):
compassion for that version ofJoy, because she didn't know any
different.
And also apply those learningsto Joy moving forward on seeing
what different things I couldtry this time and seeing like,
oh, I think that might be my guttelling me something.
How can I take a pause andlisten to that?
How can I honor what my innerauthority is telling me?
(24:37):
Even if it means I might bedisappointing somebody outside
of me.
Ashley Xu (24:42):
Oh wow.
That's tough.
Disappointing other people issuch a big fear of mine.
And I It sounds like it wasreally hard for you to overcome
too.
Joy Blue (24:51):
It still is, but I've hit the point where I'm no
longer willing for the cost tobe me.
If it costs me compromising whoI am to be in a relationship
with somebody, I'm not.
I'm not willing to go thereanymore.
Ashley Xu (25:07):
I love seeing how much you care about yourself and
how much friendship you show foryourself and love that you show
for yourself.
That's amazing.
Joy Blue (25:15):
Thank you.
I appreciate you honoring that.
It's definitely been a journey.
This conversation has been sofun, Ashley.
Thank you for taking the time todo this with me.
Ashley Xu (25:27):
Oh, thank you for having me.
I always enjoy talking with you.
I feel like you really make methink, so thank you for having
me.
Joy Blue (25:35):
So Here We Are.
I am so glad that you all got asmall taste of the goodness that
is my friend, Ashley.
I loved our conversation today.
It was so meta in so many ways.
We talked about creating safespaces for others and ourselves.
While we were actively doingthat with each other.
(25:57):
So much of friendship iscreating space to listen.
Taking time to truly hear whatthe other person is conveying
while also receiving that inreturn.
Thank you for the gift of yourfriendship.
Ashley, I look forward tocontinuing to learn alongside
you.
If you've got a flavor of nerdthat you want me to celebrate, I
would love to hear all about it.
(26:17):
So go ahead and email me atherewearethepodcast@gmail.com
and tell me everything.
I love taking time to sit andmake space for nerd to be
celebrated.
If you really liked this podcastand want to financially support
what I'm doing head on over topatreon.com, search for here we
are the podcast and sign up forone of the many beautifully
written support tiers that I'mproud of.
(26:39):
So until next time, don't forgetthat curiosity wins.
And the world needs more nerds.
Bye
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.