Episode Transcript
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Joy Blue (00:11):
Welcome to Here We Are, the podcast where we
celebrate the beauty of being anerd by learning about nerdy
things from fellow nerds.
I'm your host, Joy Blue.
I feel like I say this a lot andI do, but it really just is the
best thing-when I meet amazinghumans doing the things they
(00:31):
love in all the places that Igo.
Today's guest was one of the MCsat an event I worked recently
and from the start, I knew Ineeded to have her on the show.
The event was full of nerds ofall shapes, sizes, ages, and
countries of origin.
She is one of their biggestcheerleaders.
Without further ado.
Here's my friend Kam Yee to nerdout about equity in stem
(00:53):
education:
Kam Yee (00:55):
my name is Kam Yee.
I live out in the great PacificNorthwest.
And I was so psyched, Joy, whenyou asked me to come join your
podcast.
I started listening to it.
Here we are is like the bestname I think you can have
Joy Blue (01:12):
Oh, thanks.
Kam Yee (01:13):
Yeah, at first I was like, this is kind of vague, but
then as I listened to it I'mlike, oh my gosh, that just so
encapsulate how I met you too.
We, worked at an event andthere's always high energy,
tight schedule and stuff.
And you were constantly areminder of just well, just,
this is where we are right
Joy Blue (01:30):
This is where we are.
This is the present.
Kam Yee (01:32):
This is what we do and giving that reminder.
So as I listen to a podcast, I'mlike, okay, now I get it.
Now I'm on board.
It is the perfect name.
It encapsulate what you wannatalk about, how you want to
engage with people and just kindof like the general sense that
you carry.
So anyway, so yeah, that was mylittle fangirling moment to see
(01:55):
you do something awesome.
How should I identify myself?
So I'm an immigrant.
I moved here when I was 10.
One of my other identities hereuh, first generation college
grad, first generation highschool grad.
My parents grew up in China andthey had a seventh and a ninth
grade education.
So being able to pursueeducation, I think is a huge
(02:18):
part of who I am, what I standfor, my values.
And it's something that nobodycan take away from you, right?
Children grow up, partners canleave you, friends move through
your life.
Ebbs and flows were like thetide, but your education always
stays with you.
So regardless if it makes aincome change or not.
Learning things is just reallyfun.
(02:41):
And what sparks me a lot is Icrave new knowledge, right?
I crave learning to know how itworks, what's behind us, why
does it work that way?
And then as I got a littleolder, a little bit more
sophisticated and my educationtaught me to ask, the more
sophistication is not just howit works, it's like, why does it
(03:02):
impact people the way it doesand why does it impact certain
people differently?
Joy Blue (03:07):
Yeah.
You're asking the questionbeneath the question.
It's not just the surface thing,but it's let's look at the
system as a whole.
Kam Yee (03:13):
exactly.
That's where I find a lot of myjoy and where I have developed
professionally is in STEMeducation and the equity within
it.
How do you make STEM educationmore inclusive, which then leads
to the workforce being moreinclusive?
Right.
Joy Blue (03:28):
Yeah,
Kam Yee (03:29):
More open to different ideas and undoing a lot of the
historical systemic filters.
Joy Blue (03:37):
Okay, so for starters, most people know what STEM is,
but can you gimme a quickdefinition?
Kam Yee (03:44):
Sure.
STEM is a real fun nightbuzzword that gets expanded and
changes all the time.
So STEM stands for science,technology, engineering, and
Math.
And often you'll even hear steamwith the a being art for it to
be mixed in.
I still like the term stembecause I don't want art to be a
(04:06):
separate category from science,technology, engineering, and
math.
I think art needs to be weavedthroughout.
So I like the term STEM a littlebit better than steam.
It's also a little lessconfusing.
Joy Blue (04:17):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (04:18):
so for stem, what we typically mean are it's a
workforce based terminology,right?
It's talking about the jobs thatdo science, technology,
engineering, and math.
Not necessarily your inherentinterest or just what your
hobbies are, or who you are inthe way you learn.
(04:38):
It's about jobs.
Even though we talk about STEMeducation as an inspiration, as
sparking interest, STEMeducation is about workforce.
It's about who's going into thejobs.
It's about the jobs that's gonnapush our entire culture and
civilization into all these newfrontiers, but also established
frontiers, right?
Just look at robotics, forexample, that's a technology.
(05:02):
It makes use all of those thingsin there.
But when we do STEM education,there's a lot of focus about
inspiring.
There's a lot of focus about howwe get kids to kind of buy in
and assimilate into this field.
It's not just this prettypicture of kids learning cool
(05:22):
stuff, but it's about where arethe jobs, where are the
opportunities so that people cangain that generational wealth,
right?
Because we know STEM industrytend to make a little bit more
money.
there's the systemic question.
Why is that?
Right?
Why is that?
Being a teacher used to make alot more money until women
(05:43):
started going into that field,then somehow it became one of
the lesser pay industry.
And there's a lot of thoughtthat is actually gonna be what
happens with coding as we
Joy Blue (05:55):
Really?
Kam Yee (05:56):
Democratize the way coding is taught, learned, and
where it's practiced, becausethere will be so many.
And as soon as you bring in morewomen and people of color in it,
the pay scale also decreases, aswe've seen in other industry.
Joy Blue (06:13):
Ooh, okay.
We're talking about so manythings here.
Not only are we talking aboutstem, but we are talking about
that question under thequestion, what is the system at
play?
I wanna talk about all of thesethings.
What was the moment for you whenyou realized there was a thing
under the thing and it wasn'twhat it seemed?
Kam Yee (06:33):
So the surface question that I would answer, like, how
did I get interested in stem?
Why do I like space so much?
Cuz that's my thing.
I have a master of science inspace studies
Joy Blue (06:43):
That's so cool.
Kam Yee (06:44):
from the university, of North Dakota.
I
Joy Blue (06:46):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (06:47):
I love that school.
It's really great.
They call it Harvard of the Sky.
Joy Blue (06:51):
Behold.
Kam Yee (06:52):
so the answer for the kids and for the inspiration
portion, I was in seventh gradeand the teacher said, Hey, there
are not enough STEM learningopportunities for our students
in this poor school that has alot of immigrant students and
English language learners inthere.
And this is our health teacher.
Okay.
(07:12):
He's not the engineeringteacher, he's not the math
teacher, he's the healthteacher.
He started a rocketry class, nota club, but an actual class as
an elective.
And I took that class.
That's where that love foraerospace began in seventh grade
with this nice middle-aged whiteman who, again, not even a
science teacher, was a healthteacher, was like, we're gonna
(07:32):
do model rocketry.
And that's just what we're gonnado.
And we had all the decisionmaking power, right?
We just had to stay safe.
He'll give us a budget okay,this unit, you can pick any of
the rockets in this budgetcategory, and I'll order it for
you.
Next unit, okay, we'll work onsomething bigger within this
budget, pick whatever.
And we had a lot of agency init, which helped my learning and
(07:55):
helped me establish myself tofeel like, oh, okay, I can make
decision within this.
Now, the moment when I realizedoh, there's a system around this
was in, gosh, I was 19 or so.
I was in community college andI, in my head I'm just like, I'm
gonna be an aerospace engineercuz that's what you do.
(08:17):
Right?
Right.
You like space stuff, you likeall the moon missions, you like
the Mars missions that werehappening at that point.
I remember, as a teenagerwatching the Hubble Space
Telescope on the news, the, allthose big things.
So, I didn't know there wereother pathways.
I was just like, okay, I'm gonnabe an aerospace engineer cuz
that is the pathway you go.
And I was about 18 or 19 and Iwas in a community college
(08:40):
counselor's office and they justlooked at my grades and said,
you don't have the grades tomake it.
You'll never be an engineer.
And I remember walking out ofthat office feeling really
confused because here's anauthority figure who said, That
this isn't gonna happen, like adiagnosis, the way a doctor
might say Ooh, you've brokenyour knees that many times,
you're never gonna be a marathonrunner again.
(09:01):
It was just a very fact statedto me.
And I couldn't quite understandthe whole system, I'm sure there
were other things that hadhappened before, but that was
the moment for me that go like,huh.
I guess I can't do this, but yetit doesn't seem right.
So I kept on trying to pursueit, but just one filter after
another, I was kind of forcedout of that feel a bit.
(09:24):
And then life happened and Imoved on and did some different
things.
Joy Blue (09:27):
Wow.
Kam Yee (09:27):
But then I came back.
I was 30 when I decided okay,you know what?
I really need to pursue this Andthat's when I went to the
University of North Dakota andsaid, we're just gonna make this
happen.
I'm gonna learn this.
Joy Blue (09:41):
And you did,
Kam Yee (09:42):
I did.
It
Joy Blue (09:43):
and here you are.
Kam Yee (09:45):
here I am.
Here we are.
Joy Blue (09:49):
Wow.
There's so many questions Iwanna ask.
Okay, so I met you at a roboticscompetition and I knew right
away that I needed to talk toyou.
First of all, I saw just initialvisual, you were supporting
LGBTQIA, which is not always athing, especially in the state
(10:14):
that we were in at that time.
And so there's a part of mebeing queer and married to a
woman that I was like, hi.
There's something about when yousee an ally, when you see
someone who visibly is insupport of who you are that just
already ticked some boxesbecause there's parts of me I
don't have to explain to you.
Kam Yee (10:34):
And I wasn't sure if...
there's a line, right?
There's that line of am I justdoing Remember the whole safety
pin thing where am I just doinga safety pin moment where I feel
some accolade where I can feellike an ally and wear my ally
ship, literally like a piece ofjewelry to show off to people
(10:54):
and be like, look how look I am.
Right?
Look how chill I am.
But my my 15 year old who I cameout to us as trans about one,
two years ago?
Through the pandemic, a lot ofkids had time to really reflect
on their identity.
So, they were able to spend thattime not in the classroom, but
learning with their peers on howto have that language to talk.
(11:14):
Right.
Uh, Said that, look mom, whenyou wear something that tells me
that you are safe, it lets meknow I'm safe.
And I thought, oh, okay, I cando that.
So that was the necklace thatyou saw, that you referred to
was a little rainbow necklaceand little heart shapes.
I was trying to find a way, Iknow that I have an opportunity
(11:35):
to be a public figure at thisevent.
So how do I represent in a waythat A, is safe for me as a
woman of color in a veryconservative state that is at
that moment, still is, goingthrough a lot of questions about
how they want to treat people,right?
(11:57):
So, how is it safe for meprofessionally?
So I was very careful.
I didn't put anything that's aflag shape, cuz that adds a
whole nother layer of politicalidentity to it, right?
When I wear hearts with thelittle rainbow colors on it,
it's cute and supportive, right?
If it's the same thing but inthe shape of a flag, now it's a
(12:18):
political identity.
So I had to be careful withthat.
Cuz I like my job.
I still wanna keep my job
Joy Blue (12:23):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (12:23):
it pays for my stuff.
And I do pay for my food and Ilove going out to eat.
So I had to be a little careful,but I wanted something that,
basically passed by asacceptable, but is a a
supportive thing for the kidswho are there.
And it's so funny that you said,just the way I've curated my
(12:43):
look, I had so many queer kidscome up to me to say hello to
me.
And part of my job when I'm notdoing these big, huge
competition is that, excuse me,I would go out to schools to
visit where these students androbotics teams are working
together at their school.
So local coaches, the teachersand parents and stuff, they
(13:04):
coach and I'm there as a supportfor them if they have questions
about how the competitions go.
So you have the officials on theback with their little clipboard
to make sure, like everything iswithin regulation.
That's my job with the robotics.
Okay, so I make sureeverything's written than
regulation.
Everything is fair across theentire world, but I, there are
(13:27):
many of us, there's 20 some ofus, and we all have like
different regions that we serve.
So I have a travel budget that Iget to go visit some of these
teams as they're working thereas a community building activity
to just say Hey, I'm visible.
I'm here.
Or sometimes there are schoolsthat we need to keep an eye on
because maybe things aren'tfitting all the check boxes.
(13:50):
But mostly it's an outreach forme.
So local teachers at the schoolwill be coaching the students
and I just go visit and say Hey,you've been doing this program
for five years, just wanna sayhi.
And with the way I manage myregions, I prioritize traveling
to Title one schools and schoolsout in the rural area that we
don't typically spend as muchtime on.
(14:10):
Cuz you look at it like in autilitarian sense, you go to the
hubs where it has more programparticipants or you get more
bang for your buck.
You go one place, you can visitfive schools.
I would go to the rural areas.
I literally went to a place inOregon that I have seen more
cows than I have ever seen in myentire life.
I drove an hour through theselike, and you know, woman of
(14:32):
color traveling on a rural, youknow, conservative area.
I Was just like, there's nostopping.
We just go.
I drove an hour and it was allcows like nonstop.
I've never seen, I've never seenso many in one day.
So in these very ruralcommunity, and I would go and
usually like.
a couple of misfits at thatschool that, you know, you're
(14:53):
like, wow, buddy, you'restruggling here.
You can't wait to get outtatown.
They're onto me like magnetsevery time.
And it's just this sense ofsafety, right?
Like I don't fit in here.
I see you middle-aged lady.
Joy Blue (15:07):
Yep.
Kam Yee (15:08):
You probably don't fit in here either.
So
Joy Blue (15:11):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (15:11):
I have a moment with you that I can feel safe with
you and feel seen by you.
Joy Blue (15:17):
But I mean that kind of brings things full circle cuz
what we started out talkingabout are the disparities in
education and how it actuallyisn't equitable across.
Kam Yee (15:30):
no.
Joy Blue (15:30):
Across all the lines, and you know that from personal
experience and you've done thework to then internalize and
empathize and process your ownjourney, which then does allow
you to be a safe space when yougo visit these places.
Like when I meet people and Ifeel the right wavelength, I'm
like, okay, there's somethingabout you that I understand,
(15:53):
that I think you understandabout me, and we're on a similar
playing field.
And I would only imagine andassume that the students you're
going to visit in these placesfeel the same thing because you
are open and you are welcoming,which then is a huge hallmark
for entering people into STEMeducation, which is your, your
(16:15):
jam.
Kam Yee (16:16):
It is my jam and what I always try to talk to the
students about, and teachers,and here's the hard one, the
employers, is that inspiration,building dreams, that's the easy
part, right?
What keeps the kids in STEMeducation and in STEM pathways
(16:37):
and adults staying in STEMindustry?
You know what keeps us there?
Jobs.
That's what keeps up there.
Right?
And who holds the power of that?
Who decides?
It's not necessarily, I didn'tapply for that job, it's who is
thinking that I qualify for thatjob.
I fit into the culture of thatjob.
(17:00):
So just thinking about, not justas an inspiration, but who holds
the power.
The other thing that keeps folksthere is a sense of belonging,
which is kind of what we'retalking about now, right?
Why see that person and say,okay, I know that here we are.
The two of us at this moment canrelate as human beings.
(17:20):
That keeps people in STEMindustries.
That's what keeps keeps the kidsin science classes, engineering
classes, and continue to do, andpursue these kinds of careers.
And hey, if they don't end up inthese careers, they're still
learning a lot of skill sets,right?
In engineering and science,there's a lot of systems
thinking.
There's a lot of just goingthrough the process using the
(17:43):
scientific method.
All of that is stuff thatthey're learning that can be
taken elsewhere.
But we get to that deeper senseof not just the individual.
I can pursue my dream to be anaerospace engineer.
I can do my dream job.
We have to look at it becausefor most communities of colors
or communities who have beenmarginalized, we are community
(18:05):
thinkers.
We think how is this job and myhigher income and my proximity
to power, my proximity toaffluence?
Gonna affect my community.
How do I bring my community withme?
Right?
If I have a high paying job,then I'm supporting my community
cuz I'm building generationalwealth within my community that
(18:26):
we can all rise.
What is that phrase?
Like rising with uh, with therising tide.
Joy Blue (18:31):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (18:32):
Yeah.
So for me, Getting students intoSTEM fields is not just a, wow,
you're really good at this andyou love it.
Cuz I love space.
Like I love the space missions,I love the idea, I like where
it's taking us, how we'reexploring things outside of this
planet.
I mean, come on, that's crazyscience fiction stuff, but it's
(18:52):
happening.
But on a more grounded sense, inthe system sense, is how is this
moving our community so thatthey can have greater power?
And when I say our community, Imean like people of color, women
who are typically kept out ofit.
Cuz there are multiple studiesthat women are not, they're not
(19:12):
quitting engineering jobs to gostay at home and have babies.
That's not where it is.
When engineers, female engineersquit.
It's because they lackpromotional paths.
They have hostile workenvironments.
And this is not justengineering, right?
This is across the board.
They leave and they go to ahigher paying job at a different
company, perhaps not even intheir industry.
And with engineers specifically,there's such good systems
(19:35):
thinker that other industrieswill recruit them for their
C-suite.
For their executive level stuff,because they know these folks
with engineering backgroundtraining can handle very complex
systems.
Joy Blue (19:50):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (19:51):
So they're not leaving jobs to have babies, they're
leaving jobs for better payingjobs at places that treat them
better.
Joy Blue (19:56):
Yeah.
I mean, how many times have youheard the phrase like it's
people stay based on theirbosses?
I mean, that's not the phrase,but I can't remember the exact
one.
Kam Yee (20:06):
You stay for the people, which it should be, but
it also shouldn't be.
Like, it should be great that webuild community at our workplace
because it's where we spend themajority of our time.
Like a lot of people spend moretime at work than they do with
family, but it shouldn't be thatyou could have a crappy job and
(20:26):
poor pay, and you stay for.
The people, right?
Because I've worked in nonprofitmy entire professional career.
Nonprofit, not known to havegood pay.
And is what we call feel goodpennies.
Like, Oh, you've got a nicecoworker.
Or You really love yourcommunity, or you love your job
cuz you know you're making adifference.
Those are feel good pennies.
(20:47):
Feel good pennies don't buy anyshoes that I need, right?
I wanna go on a vacation.
Joy Blue (20:51):
Yep,
Kam Yee (20:53):
Feel good pennies can't pay for that.
Joy Blue (20:55):
yep.
Kam Yee (20:56):
I need healthcare.
Feel good.
Pennies don't pay for that.
So I like it when people stayfor a job, for community, but it
shouldn't be the anchor, if thatmakes sense.
Joy Blue (21:09):
well, it's what you were talking about earlier, what
is the cost and who pays thecost?
I've worked in a lot ofnonprofit jobs where the cost
was me.
So I got to a point where I justdecided I will no longer stay
when the cost is me.
So, Part of what I'm hearing yousay is the pathway to these jobs
(21:30):
is not just brain.
It is influencing all of thelevels along the way.
And this is what we're fightingfor in general anyway.
It's to say everyone deserves aseat at the table and when
somebody else has a seat at thetable, that doesn't mean there
isn't room for you.
Kam Yee (21:49):
Right, exactly.
The zero sum game.
Like it's the, it is not zerosum.
Right?
We kind of make, we made up howmany spots there were.
Okay, so this is where I nerdout.
I love looking at data.
I love looking at the numbersbehind things.
And not just this cliche of oh,I don't like feelings.
I like looking at numbersbecause, Numbers is another
(22:10):
language.
Numbers and how that datarepresent what you're seeing, it
creates a narrative and,statistics like this is an older
study, it's like a mural studycalled Stemming the Tide and
it's about specifically womenwho have engineering degree.
Okay, I can't remember the exactnumber, but it's something like,
(22:34):
Only 25% of them are still inthe engineering workforce after
five years.
So you look at those numbers,those numbers tell you a story.
So that's why I like numbers.
Whenever I struggle with things,I always like, I always hit the
books.
I'm like, I have sleep apnea.
And for a while I felt reallybad about it and then I looked,
I'm like, oh, like one in sevenpeople probably have it or have
it and don't have it diagnosed.
(22:56):
So numbers make me feel better.
Like,
Joy Blue (22:59):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (23:00):
okay.
I'm just part of the norm.
I'm
Joy Blue (23:03):
You're finding validation.
Kam Yee (23:04):
Right, right.
So in STEM education, this issomething where I did my master
thesis on.
It's something that Icontinually work on in my
professional career to just askthese questions of what we're
measuring.
Cuz what you'll find is that alot of STEM education evaluation
ask student belief.
(23:25):
They measure the student inbelieving if they can do.
Engineering, right?
So a typical one would be you doa one year program for, kids to
build robots or make rockets orwhatever.
They build an app.
Joy Blue (23:40):
Sure.
Kam Yee (23:41):
So what a typical evaluation cycle would be at the
pre-program, so at the beginningwhen the kids, you'll ask'em a
set of questions of.
Yes, I believe I can be anengineer.
I do plan on taking calc or allthese things about what they
believe in themselves.
Do you want to, do you desire tohave a career in computer
programming?
(24:02):
And then you measure them at theend of the program.
You work with the kids for ninemonths, they've learned all this
stuff.
They gain all this confidenceabout what they can do in their
computer programming.
At the end of the program, youmeasure like, how confident do
you feel on it?
It's all about their beliefs inthemselves.
Do you want to go get this jobin, whatever tech company and
(24:22):
you measure it and then you dothe pre and the post and you
compare and say, oh, thisprogram has moved these kids
from feeling not confident, toconfident.
Boom, we're successful.
It's fair, right?
It's fair to make that, but whatit doesn't measure is will the
employers look at this studentand say they're employable.
(24:43):
We don't ask that questionbecause then that puts the
responsibility and the solutionon the people with power.
We keep trying to fix theindividual but not the system.
So that's where I like to lookat data a lot, and I like to
encourage data collection in adifferent way so that you're
measuring the thing with thepower or the system instead of
the individual, because you canonly change the individual so
(25:05):
much.
If you throw someone in theocean, they don't know how to
swim.
There's only so many floatiesyou can put on them.
And even if you teach'em toswim, at the moment, they are in
the ocean.
They can only swim so longwithout more support.
Joy Blue (25:17):
Right.
Kam Yee (25:18):
So that's the harder question, right?
That second level question thatyou ask.
And boy, there is a lot ofresistance, a lot of resistance
to measure that.
Joy Blue (25:29):
Yeah, because that means accountability and
accountability is wonderfullyterrifying.
Kam Yee (25:36):
And it's work.
And I think there's a fear thataccountability means that
certain people will lose out.
And that's where that zero sumthinking comes in, right?
That there's only five spots,and if I'm gonna let you have
it, that means I lose a spot.
And that's not always the case.
Joy Blue (25:54):
Yeah.
It's interesting too, to listento your process of how you're
getting here because you'restarting, like if this was
instructional design, you'restarting with the end in mind
and you're working backwards.
Where I'm hearing you say a lotof processes start at the
beginning and build it fromthere and it's so true.
Looking out into the world,there aren't a lot of places
(26:17):
that are truly open andwelcoming to all.
Kam Yee (26:23):
So I'm in Seattle tech town, right?
And it amazes me that we don'thave like a substantial woman
owned consulting firm that woulddo programming for folks.
I cannot believe we don't haveone.
We have one school in this areacalled ADA Academy and they help
(26:43):
women do career change intocomputer science careers.
But I'm just so surprised, andmaybe it exists out there and I
don't know, like why is it thatwe don't have a woman owned
business that is specialized incomputer science.
I have a few guesses why wedon't have that, and I'm sure
you have a few guesses.
(27:04):
So why we don't have that, and Iam going to assume that it's
been attempted,
Joy Blue (27:11):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (27:12):
but they're not getting the champions and the support or
the loans
Joy Blue (27:16):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (27:17):
or the investors to, to believe
Joy Blue (27:20):
Yeah.
Well, it comes back to who hasto pay the cost.
Kam Yee (27:23):
Right?
Yeah.
Who has to pay the cost andwho's willing to be that
champion?
If you look at some jobscarefully when they hire for
diversity stuff, the word riskis in there.
So if they hire for a diversitymanager within a place, you'll
see the word risk and you know,like, why is this in here?
(27:44):
Just search for it.
You'll see it.
It's really weird.
I started noticing that a fewyears ago.
Like I've seen it, but it didn'treally click in my head that
wait, other program managementjobs don't talk about diversity
as a risk, so how are employersviewing having to make their
place more inclusive?
They see it as a risk.
Joy Blue (28:05):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (28:06):
is that?
Right?
Risk for who?
Because it's not a risk for meto be Awesome.
So whose risk is it?
Joy Blue (28:13):
right.
Kam Yee (28:14):
Yeah, that would be, that will actually be a really
cool study to just look at jobpostings for anything that's
like a lead in any kind ofdiversity, and how often, like
what percentage of them mentionsthe word risk?
Joy Blue (28:30):
Yeah.
What I'm hearing you talk aboutnow is so closely tied to what I
hear in your voice when you talkabout space.
Is there's so much morepossibility out there.
And what I hear you lead with iscuriosity.
Kam Yee (28:43):
Right.
Joy Blue (28:44):
I hear you lead with is empathy and wanting to fight
for that equity.
Because I mean, in an idealworld, it shouldn't be hard.
Because we're all human.
Kam Yee (28:56):
Right.
It shouldn't be hard, but youknow, having an equitable world,
if it's easy, we would've doneit before.
Like in a way it's easy, butit's also not easy.
It's easy in that the steps todo it.
Like I hear this from, Greatallies all the time.
I just don't know how to dothis.
I don't know what steps to take.
I'm like, no, it's not thathard.
(29:16):
Like how do you keep women andpeople of color in STEM
workforce?
You just have good management,basic management stuff, right?
Basic clear pathways topromotion, fair compensation,
pay transparency, goodhealthcare, flexible work, and
accommodations when you havelife events.
(29:38):
Those are all basic things thatnobody is hurt by them, but it
retains people and it retainswomen and it retains people of
color.
But it's hard because there'sresistance.
So like the actual mechanism ofhow to make it better isn't
hard.
But there's resistance.
(29:58):
And there's also willfulignorance to it too.
So, another thing we talk aboutin STEM education, and this is.
A subset of folks, right?
It's the folks who are liketrying to move the needle.
We're trying to make progressand do the work to make it more
equitable is you have programsthat work really well that
started out with a well fundedschool, and mostly boys
(30:23):
participate in that program andthey take that exact program and
try to replicate it at a schoolthat is not well funded, that
might be co-ed and might be veryDiverse in composition based as
far as racial identity orreligious identity, that is a
mixture.
And surprise.
That program doesn't quite workfor that population.
(30:44):
And then they go, oh, these kidsare so interested.
They're just not as good at it.
Right?
It's well,
Joy Blue (30:51):
Are you blaming the kids or are you blaming the
program?
Kam Yee (30:56):
Well, there's, it's usually saying the kids aren't
interested.
We don't know why they don'tcome to this program.
Well, it was set up in a waythat doesn't work for them.
Right.
And
Joy Blue (31:04):
to know your audience.
Kam Yee (31:05):
and then the, then the next step is, oh, we gotta meet
them halfway.
So I hear that all the time.
Meeting halfway.
And I like to take that out ofpeople's language when they talk
about STEM education andoutreach in that way.
Because meeting halfway impliesthat you have this gold standard
of the white boys with money orwith access, not necessarily
(31:26):
even with money, right?
There's, I've met some reallyawesome folks with humble
beginnings because they're whiteand male, or in tech, asian and
male.
East Asian specifically, theyfit in really easily and they
can pass those hurdles.
And myself, as an Asian woman, Iam seen as fitting into the tech
(31:49):
world because you do see some ofus as not great, but you know,
there are not a lot of us and wehit a lot of barriers, but you
at least see a couple of them upthere, right?
So.
When you develop programs thatwork there and it doesn't apply
to students that have differentjust not necessarily less, but
(32:11):
just a different set ofresources available to them.
We think meeting it halfway asif we have to lower the
standards of.
Joy Blue (32:19):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (32:20):
Of your, the white boys who have access to things or are
given access or giving thebenefit of the doubt through
their learning journey.
Right.
I remember talking with somebodywho works at a state government
level helping minority ownedbusiness and trying to get them
contracts with government.
Cuz the government gives ussolicitation and oftentimes
(32:43):
minority owned businesses don'tknow how to go through the
process to bid for them.
So he helps them to walk'emthrough the technical aspect of
okay, this is how you do anapplication.
This is how this is how younavigate the system there so
that they can be empowered to dothat and bid on different kinds
of contracts.
And then we're talking aboutcontracts like being a food
service provider at acourthouse, things like.
(33:04):
That any business can prettymuch fulfill.
Right?
He said that the biggest hurdlehe has to convince is actually
people doing the hiring, notseeing minority owned business
as an inferior business or witha lesser quality.
And I get to be on scholarshippanels, sometimes, I get to be
with interview panels and thatcomes up again and again, that
(33:26):
when it's a woman or any kind ofhistorically marginalized group,
immediately, well, we gotta meetthem halfway.
But what does that mean?
That means you're assuming whatthey're bringing is inferior and
a lower
Joy Blue (33:38):
looking, You're looking down.
Like you're automaticallysaying, oh, you're so below.
I mean, that is woven into ourculture
Kam Yee (33:47):
Right, right.
And
Joy Blue (33:48):
And it's not okay.
Kam Yee (33:49):
So working, corporate America stuff and gosh, I don't
even wanna say corporateAmerica, just in America because
I've faced this in nonprofitstoo.
It's in small orgs and smallbusinesses.
You hear that rhetoric and youhave to just kinda start being a
little subversive and sometimesit's outright, Hey, not cool,
(34:09):
don't do that.
And other times it's just, I'mgonna start saying it so you're
comfortable with the way that weshould talk about this.
So a little combination of that.
Joy Blue (34:19):
That's beautiful.
Kam Yee (34:21):
So that's what I try to do.
Joy Blue (34:23):
one final thing.
Kam Yee (34:24):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (34:25):
What do you want my listeners to know and take away
from this conversation?
Kam Yee (34:29):
I want your listeners, everyone, specifically men,
white people, start having theseconversations.
Have space, safe spaces, andtalk to each other about it.
Right?
I know it can be kind of scaryand intimidating to go find like
people that you may not knowvery well and say, let's talk
(34:49):
about race.
It's okay if you have aconversation and you don't
really learn some big ahamoment.
But just having thatconversation, Having the
conversation with people who arejust like you, that's okay too.
You don't only wanna do it andbecome an echo chamber.
Joy Blue (35:08):
Right,
Kam Yee (35:09):
Right, which is what we see on social media now.
Or you curate it and you onlytalk about it, but it's okay to
practice those conversationsbefore you take it to someone
that maybe is a little bitdifferent than you.
Have a couple of practice roundfirst, and that is okay.
You are totally allowed to talkabout race and talk about gender
equity within your group ofwhatever privilege you have.
(35:32):
So please practice those andthen have the bigger
conversation with other peopletoo.
And then I think second thing iswhatever change you're trying to
make, just find your nearestwoman of color, preferably a
black or indigenous woman.
Do whatever she tells you to do.
Joy Blue (35:49):
Yep.
Kam Yee (35:50):
Just find your nearest woman of color, follow their
direction, and they will leadyou to where you want to be, and
you will like yourself more.
Joy Blue (36:00):
Amen.
All of us are worth being at thetable.
Thank you so much for your time,Kam.
This has been amazing.
Kam Yee (36:08):
So fun.
Thanks for listening to mysoapbox and it's just so fun to
talk with somebody else who'syeah, I can feel safe to be
like, I just be my full self.
Joy Blue (36:16):
That's right.
Kam Yee (36:16):
Aww
Joy Blue (36:18):
So here we are.
What a delightful time I hadwith Kam during this interview.
I love how she approached thisconversation in such a meta way.
She came to the table withcuriosity, just as she is also
asking us to move into therealms of discussing race and
equity in the same way.
I am so grateful Kam exists inthis world, and I'm looking
(36:40):
forward to seeing where ourfriendship goes from here.
Thank you again, Kam if you'vegot a flavor of nerd that you
want me to celebrate, I wouldlove to hear all about it.
So go ahead and email me atherewearethepodcast@gmail.com
and tell me everything.
I love taking time to sit andmake space for nerd to be
celebrated.
If you really liked this podcastand want to financially support
(37:02):
what I'm doing, head on over toPatreon.com, search for here we
are the podcast and sign up forone of the many beautifully
written support tiers.
So until next time, don't forgetthe curiosity wins and the world
needs more nerds.
Bye.
Welcome to Here We Are, the podcast where we
celebrate the beauty of being anerd by learning about nerdy
things from fellow nerds.
I'm your host, Joy Blue.
I feel like I say this a lot andI do, but it really just is the
best thing-when I meet amazinghumans doing the things they
(00:31):
love in all the places that Igo.
Today's guest was one of the MCsat an event I worked recently
and from the start, I knew Ineeded to have her on the show.
The event was full of nerds ofall shapes, sizes, ages, and
countries of origin.
She is one of their biggestcheerleaders.
Without further ado.
Here's my friend Kam Yee to nerdout about equity in stem
(00:53):
education:
Kam Yee (00:55):
my name is Kam Yee.
I live out in the great PacificNorthwest.
And I was so psyched, Joy, whenyou asked me to come join your
podcast.
I started listening to it.
Here we are is like the bestname I think you can have
Joy Blue (01:12):
Oh, thanks.
Kam Yee (01:13):
Yeah, at first I was like, this is kind of vague, but
then as I listened to it I'mlike, oh my gosh, that just so
encapsulate how I met you too.
We, worked at an event andthere's always high energy,
tight schedule and stuff.
And you were constantly areminder of just well, just,
this is where we are right
Joy Blue (01:30):
This is where we are.
This is the present.
Kam Yee (01:32):
This is what we do and giving that reminder.
So as I listen to a podcast, I'mlike, okay, now I get it.
Now I'm on board.
It is the perfect name.
It encapsulate what you wannatalk about, how you want to
engage with people and just kindof like the general sense that
you carry.
So anyway, so yeah, that was mylittle fangirling moment to see
(01:55):
you do something awesome.
How should I identify myself?
So I'm an immigrant.
I moved here when I was 10.
One of my other identities hereuh, first generation college
grad, first generation highschool grad.
My parents grew up in China andthey had a seventh and a ninth
grade education.
So being able to pursueeducation, I think is a huge
(02:18):
part of who I am, what I standfor, my values.
And it's something that nobodycan take away from you, right?
Children grow up, partners canleave you, friends move through
your life.
Ebbs and flows were like thetide, but your education always
stays with you.
So regardless if it makes aincome change or not.
Learning things is just reallyfun.
(02:41):
And what sparks me a lot is Icrave new knowledge, right?
I crave learning to know how itworks, what's behind us, why
does it work that way?
And then as I got a littleolder, a little bit more
sophisticated and my educationtaught me to ask, the more
sophistication is not just howit works, it's like, why does it
(03:02):
impact people the way it doesand why does it impact certain
people differently?
Joy Blue (03:07):
Yeah.
You're asking the questionbeneath the question.
It's not just the surface thing,but it's let's look at the
system as a whole.
Kam Yee (03:13):
exactly.
That's where I find a lot of myjoy and where I have developed
professionally is in STEMeducation and the equity within
it.
How do you make STEM educationmore inclusive, which then leads
to the workforce being moreinclusive?
Right.
Joy Blue (03:28):
Yeah,
Kam Yee (03:29):
More open to different ideas and undoing a lot of the
historical systemic filters.
Joy Blue (03:37):
Okay, so for starters, most people know what STEM is,
but can you gimme a quickdefinition?
Kam Yee (03:44):
Sure.
STEM is a real fun nightbuzzword that gets expanded and
changes all the time.
So STEM stands for science,technology, engineering, and
Math.
And often you'll even hear steamwith the a being art for it to
be mixed in.
I still like the term stembecause I don't want art to be a
(04:06):
separate category from science,technology, engineering, and
math.
I think art needs to be weavedthroughout.
So I like the term STEM a littlebit better than steam.
It's also a little lessconfusing.
Joy Blue (04:17):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (04:18):
so for stem, what we typically mean are it's a
workforce based terminology,right?
It's talking about the jobs thatdo science, technology,
engineering, and math.
Not necessarily your inherentinterest or just what your
hobbies are, or who you are inthe way you learn.
(04:38):
It's about jobs.
Even though we talk about STEMeducation as an inspiration, as
sparking interest, STEMeducation is about workforce.
It's about who's going into thejobs.
It's about the jobs that's gonnapush our entire culture and
civilization into all these newfrontiers, but also established
frontiers, right?
Just look at robotics, forexample, that's a technology.
(05:02):
It makes use all of those thingsin there.
But when we do STEM education,there's a lot of focus about
inspiring.
There's a lot of focus about howwe get kids to kind of buy in
and assimilate into this field.
It's not just this prettypicture of kids learning cool
(05:22):
stuff, but it's about where arethe jobs, where are the
opportunities so that people cangain that generational wealth,
right?
Because we know STEM industrytend to make a little bit more
money.
there's the systemic question.
Why is that?
Right?
Why is that?
Being a teacher used to make alot more money until women
(05:43):
started going into that field,then somehow it became one of
the lesser pay industry.
And there's a lot of thoughtthat is actually gonna be what
happens with coding as we
Joy Blue (05:55):
Really?
Kam Yee (05:56):
Democratize the way coding is taught, learned, and
where it's practiced, becausethere will be so many.
And as soon as you bring in morewomen and people of color in it,
the pay scale also decreases, aswe've seen in other industry.
Joy Blue (06:13):
Ooh, okay.
We're talking about so manythings here.
Not only are we talking aboutstem, but we are talking about
that question under thequestion, what is the system at
play?
I wanna talk about all of thesethings.
What was the moment for you whenyou realized there was a thing
under the thing and it wasn'twhat it seemed?
Kam Yee (06:33):
So the surface question that I would answer, like, how
did I get interested in stem?
Why do I like space so much?
Cuz that's my thing.
I have a master of science inspace studies
Joy Blue (06:43):
That's so cool.
Kam Yee (06:44):
from the university, of North Dakota.
I
Joy Blue (06:46):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (06:47):
I love that school.
It's really great.
They call it Harvard of the Sky.
Joy Blue (06:51):
Behold.
Kam Yee (06:52):
so the answer for the kids and for the inspiration
portion, I was in seventh gradeand the teacher said, Hey, there
are not enough STEM learningopportunities for our students
in this poor school that has alot of immigrant students and
English language learners inthere.
And this is our health teacher.
Okay.
(07:12):
He's not the engineeringteacher, he's not the math
teacher, he's the healthteacher.
He started a rocketry class, nota club, but an actual class as
an elective.
And I took that class.
That's where that love foraerospace began in seventh grade
with this nice middle-aged whiteman who, again, not even a
science teacher, was a healthteacher, was like, we're gonna
(07:32):
do model rocketry.
And that's just what we're gonnado.
And we had all the decisionmaking power, right?
We just had to stay safe.
He'll give us a budget okay,this unit, you can pick any of
the rockets in this budgetcategory, and I'll order it for
you.
Next unit, okay, we'll work onsomething bigger within this
budget, pick whatever.
And we had a lot of agency init, which helped my learning and
(07:55):
helped me establish myself tofeel like, oh, okay, I can make
decision within this.
Now, the moment when I realizedoh, there's a system around this
was in, gosh, I was 19 or so.
I was in community college andI, in my head I'm just like, I'm
gonna be an aerospace engineercuz that's what you do.
(08:17):
Right?
Right.
You like space stuff, you likeall the moon missions, you like
the Mars missions that werehappening at that point.
I remember, as a teenagerwatching the Hubble Space
Telescope on the news, the, allthose big things.
So, I didn't know there wereother pathways.
I was just like, okay, I'm gonnabe an aerospace engineer cuz
that is the pathway you go.
And I was about 18 or 19 and Iwas in a community college
(08:40):
counselor's office and they justlooked at my grades and said,
you don't have the grades tomake it.
You'll never be an engineer.
And I remember walking out ofthat office feeling really
confused because here's anauthority figure who said, That
this isn't gonna happen, like adiagnosis, the way a doctor
might say Ooh, you've brokenyour knees that many times,
you're never gonna be a marathonrunner again.
(09:01):
It was just a very fact statedto me.
And I couldn't quite understandthe whole system, I'm sure there
were other things that hadhappened before, but that was
the moment for me that go like,huh.
I guess I can't do this, but yetit doesn't seem right.
So I kept on trying to pursueit, but just one filter after
another, I was kind of forcedout of that feel a bit.
(09:24):
And then life happened and Imoved on and did some different
things.
Joy Blue (09:27):
Wow.
Kam Yee (09:27):
But then I came back.
I was 30 when I decided okay,you know what?
I really need to pursue this Andthat's when I went to the
University of North Dakota andsaid, we're just gonna make this
happen.
I'm gonna learn this.
Joy Blue (09:41):
And you did,
Kam Yee (09:42):
I did.
It
Joy Blue (09:43):
and here you are.
Kam Yee (09:45):
here I am.
Here we are.
Joy Blue (09:49):
Wow.
There's so many questions Iwanna ask.
Okay, so I met you at a roboticscompetition and I knew right
away that I needed to talk toyou.
First of all, I saw just initialvisual, you were supporting
LGBTQIA, which is not always athing, especially in the state
(10:14):
that we were in at that time.
And so there's a part of mebeing queer and married to a
woman that I was like, hi.
There's something about when yousee an ally, when you see
someone who visibly is insupport of who you are that just
already ticked some boxesbecause there's parts of me I
don't have to explain to you.
Kam Yee (10:34):
And I wasn't sure if...
there's a line, right?
There's that line of am I justdoing Remember the whole safety
pin thing where am I just doinga safety pin moment where I feel
some accolade where I can feellike an ally and wear my ally
ship, literally like a piece ofjewelry to show off to people
(10:54):
and be like, look how look I am.
Right?
Look how chill I am.
But my my 15 year old who I cameout to us as trans about one,
two years ago?
Through the pandemic, a lot ofkids had time to really reflect
on their identity.
So, they were able to spend thattime not in the classroom, but
learning with their peers on howto have that language to talk.
(11:14):
Right.
Uh, Said that, look mom, whenyou wear something that tells me
that you are safe, it lets meknow I'm safe.
And I thought, oh, okay, I cando that.
So that was the necklace thatyou saw, that you referred to
was a little rainbow necklaceand little heart shapes.
I was trying to find a way, Iknow that I have an opportunity
(11:35):
to be a public figure at thisevent.
So how do I represent in a waythat A, is safe for me as a
woman of color in a veryconservative state that is at
that moment, still is, goingthrough a lot of questions about
how they want to treat people,right?
(11:57):
So, how is it safe for meprofessionally?
So I was very careful.
I didn't put anything that's aflag shape, cuz that adds a
whole nother layer of politicalidentity to it, right?
When I wear hearts with thelittle rainbow colors on it,
it's cute and supportive, right?
If it's the same thing but inthe shape of a flag, now it's a
(12:18):
political identity.
So I had to be careful withthat.
Cuz I like my job.
I still wanna keep my job
Joy Blue (12:23):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (12:23):
it pays for my stuff.
And I do pay for my food and Ilove going out to eat.
So I had to be a little careful,but I wanted something that,
basically passed by asacceptable, but is a a
supportive thing for the kidswho are there.
And it's so funny that you said,just the way I've curated my
(12:43):
look, I had so many queer kidscome up to me to say hello to
me.
And part of my job when I'm notdoing these big, huge
competition is that, excuse me,I would go out to schools to
visit where these students androbotics teams are working
together at their school.
So local coaches, the teachersand parents and stuff, they
(13:04):
coach and I'm there as a supportfor them if they have questions
about how the competitions go.
So you have the officials on theback with their little clipboard
to make sure, like everything iswithin regulation.
That's my job with the robotics.
Okay, so I make sureeverything's written than
regulation.
Everything is fair across theentire world, but I, there are
(13:27):
many of us, there's 20 some ofus, and we all have like
different regions that we serve.
So I have a travel budget that Iget to go visit some of these
teams as they're working thereas a community building activity
to just say Hey, I'm visible.
I'm here.
Or sometimes there are schoolsthat we need to keep an eye on
because maybe things aren'tfitting all the check boxes.
(13:50):
But mostly it's an outreach forme.
So local teachers at the schoolwill be coaching the students
and I just go visit and say Hey,you've been doing this program
for five years, just wanna sayhi.
And with the way I manage myregions, I prioritize traveling
to Title one schools and schoolsout in the rural area that we
don't typically spend as muchtime on.
(14:10):
Cuz you look at it like in autilitarian sense, you go to the
hubs where it has more programparticipants or you get more
bang for your buck.
You go one place, you can visitfive schools.
I would go to the rural areas.
I literally went to a place inOregon that I have seen more
cows than I have ever seen in myentire life.
I drove an hour through theselike, and you know, woman of
(14:32):
color traveling on a rural, youknow, conservative area.
I Was just like, there's nostopping.
We just go.
I drove an hour and it was allcows like nonstop.
I've never seen, I've never seenso many in one day.
So in these very ruralcommunity, and I would go and
usually like.
a couple of misfits at thatschool that, you know, you're
(14:53):
like, wow, buddy, you'restruggling here.
You can't wait to get outtatown.
They're onto me like magnetsevery time.
And it's just this sense ofsafety, right?
Like I don't fit in here.
I see you middle-aged lady.
Joy Blue (15:07):
Yep.
Kam Yee (15:08):
You probably don't fit in here either.
So
Joy Blue (15:11):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (15:11):
I have a moment with you that I can feel safe with
you and feel seen by you.
Joy Blue (15:17):
But I mean that kind of brings things full circle cuz
what we started out talkingabout are the disparities in
education and how it actuallyisn't equitable across.
Kam Yee (15:30):
no.
Joy Blue (15:30):
Across all the lines, and you know that from personal
experience and you've done thework to then internalize and
empathize and process your ownjourney, which then does allow
you to be a safe space when yougo visit these places.
Like when I meet people and Ifeel the right wavelength, I'm
like, okay, there's somethingabout you that I understand,
(15:53):
that I think you understandabout me, and we're on a similar
playing field.
And I would only imagine andassume that the students you're
going to visit in these placesfeel the same thing because you
are open and you are welcoming,which then is a huge hallmark
for entering people into STEMeducation, which is your, your
(16:15):
jam.
Kam Yee (16:16):
It is my jam and what I always try to talk to the
students about, and teachers,and here's the hard one, the
employers, is that inspiration,building dreams, that's the easy
part, right?
What keeps the kids in STEMeducation and in STEM pathways
(16:37):
and adults staying in STEMindustry?
You know what keeps us there?
Jobs.
That's what keeps up there.
Right?
And who holds the power of that?
Who decides?
It's not necessarily, I didn'tapply for that job, it's who is
thinking that I qualify for thatjob.
I fit into the culture of thatjob.
(17:00):
So just thinking about, not justas an inspiration, but who holds
the power.
The other thing that keeps folksthere is a sense of belonging,
which is kind of what we'retalking about now, right?
Why see that person and say,okay, I know that here we are.
The two of us at this moment canrelate as human beings.
(17:20):
That keeps people in STEMindustries.
That's what keeps keeps the kidsin science classes, engineering
classes, and continue to do, andpursue these kinds of careers.
And hey, if they don't end up inthese careers, they're still
learning a lot of skill sets,right?
In engineering and science,there's a lot of systems
thinking.
There's a lot of just goingthrough the process using the
(17:43):
scientific method.
All of that is stuff thatthey're learning that can be
taken elsewhere.
But we get to that deeper senseof not just the individual.
I can pursue my dream to be anaerospace engineer.
I can do my dream job.
We have to look at it becausefor most communities of colors
or communities who have beenmarginalized, we are community
(18:05):
thinkers.
We think how is this job and myhigher income and my proximity
to power, my proximity toaffluence?
Gonna affect my community.
How do I bring my community withme?
Right?
If I have a high paying job,then I'm supporting my community
cuz I'm building generationalwealth within my community that
(18:26):
we can all rise.
What is that phrase?
Like rising with uh, with therising tide.
Joy Blue (18:31):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (18:32):
Yeah.
So for me, Getting students intoSTEM fields is not just a, wow,
you're really good at this andyou love it.
Cuz I love space.
Like I love the space missions,I love the idea, I like where
it's taking us, how we'reexploring things outside of this
planet.
I mean, come on, that's crazyscience fiction stuff, but it's
(18:52):
happening.
But on a more grounded sense, inthe system sense, is how is this
moving our community so thatthey can have greater power?
And when I say our community, Imean like people of color, women
who are typically kept out ofit.
Cuz there are multiple studiesthat women are not, they're not
(19:12):
quitting engineering jobs to gostay at home and have babies.
That's not where it is.
When engineers, female engineersquit.
It's because they lackpromotional paths.
They have hostile workenvironments.
And this is not justengineering, right?
This is across the board.
They leave and they go to ahigher paying job at a different
company, perhaps not even intheir industry.
And with engineers specifically,there's such good systems
(19:35):
thinker that other industrieswill recruit them for their
C-suite.
For their executive level stuff,because they know these folks
with engineering backgroundtraining can handle very complex
systems.
Joy Blue (19:50):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (19:51):
So they're not leaving jobs to have babies, they're
leaving jobs for better payingjobs at places that treat them
better.
Joy Blue (19:56):
Yeah.
I mean, how many times have youheard the phrase like it's
people stay based on theirbosses?
I mean, that's not the phrase,but I can't remember the exact
one.
Kam Yee (20:06):
You stay for the people, which it should be, but
it also shouldn't be.
Like, it should be great that webuild community at our workplace
because it's where we spend themajority of our time.
Like a lot of people spend moretime at work than they do with
family, but it shouldn't be thatyou could have a crappy job and
(20:26):
poor pay, and you stay for.
The people, right?
Because I've worked in nonprofitmy entire professional career.
Nonprofit, not known to havegood pay.
And is what we call feel goodpennies.
Like, Oh, you've got a nicecoworker.
Or You really love yourcommunity, or you love your job
cuz you know you're making adifference.
Those are feel good pennies.
(20:47):
Feel good pennies don't buy anyshoes that I need, right?
I wanna go on a vacation.
Joy Blue (20:51):
Yep,
Kam Yee (20:53):
Feel good pennies can't pay for that.
Joy Blue (20:55):
yep.
Kam Yee (20:56):
I need healthcare.
Feel good.
Pennies don't pay for that.
So I like it when people stayfor a job, for community, but it
shouldn't be the anchor, if thatmakes sense.
Joy Blue (21:09):
well, it's what you were talking about earlier, what
is the cost and who pays thecost?
I've worked in a lot ofnonprofit jobs where the cost
was me.
So I got to a point where I justdecided I will no longer stay
when the cost is me.
So, Part of what I'm hearing yousay is the pathway to these jobs
(21:30):
is not just brain.
It is influencing all of thelevels along the way.
And this is what we're fightingfor in general anyway.
It's to say everyone deserves aseat at the table and when
somebody else has a seat at thetable, that doesn't mean there
isn't room for you.
Kam Yee (21:49):
Right, exactly.
The zero sum game.
Like it's the, it is not zerosum.
Right?
We kind of make, we made up howmany spots there were.
Okay, so this is where I nerdout.
I love looking at data.
I love looking at the numbersbehind things.
And not just this cliche of oh,I don't like feelings.
I like looking at numbersbecause, Numbers is another
(22:10):
language.
Numbers and how that datarepresent what you're seeing, it
creates a narrative and,statistics like this is an older
study, it's like a mural studycalled Stemming the Tide and
it's about specifically womenwho have engineering degree.
Okay, I can't remember the exactnumber, but it's something like,
(22:34):
Only 25% of them are still inthe engineering workforce after
five years.
So you look at those numbers,those numbers tell you a story.
So that's why I like numbers.
Whenever I struggle with things,I always like, I always hit the
books.
I'm like, I have sleep apnea.
And for a while I felt reallybad about it and then I looked,
I'm like, oh, like one in sevenpeople probably have it or have
it and don't have it diagnosed.
(22:56):
So numbers make me feel better.
Like,
Joy Blue (22:59):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (23:00):
okay.
I'm just part of the norm.
I'm
Joy Blue (23:03):
You're finding validation.
Kam Yee (23:04):
Right, right.
So in STEM education, this issomething where I did my master
thesis on.
It's something that Icontinually work on in my
professional career to just askthese questions of what we're
measuring.
Cuz what you'll find is that alot of STEM education evaluation
ask student belief.
(23:25):
They measure the student inbelieving if they can do.
Engineering, right?
So a typical one would be you doa one year program for, kids to
build robots or make rockets orwhatever.
They build an app.
Joy Blue (23:40):
Sure.
Kam Yee (23:41):
So what a typical evaluation cycle would be at the
pre-program, so at the beginningwhen the kids, you'll ask'em a
set of questions of.
Yes, I believe I can be anengineer.
I do plan on taking calc or allthese things about what they
believe in themselves.
Do you want to, do you desire tohave a career in computer
programming?
(24:02):
And then you measure them at theend of the program.
You work with the kids for ninemonths, they've learned all this
stuff.
They gain all this confidenceabout what they can do in their
computer programming.
At the end of the program, youmeasure like, how confident do
you feel on it?
It's all about their beliefs inthemselves.
Do you want to go get this jobin, whatever tech company and
(24:22):
you measure it and then you dothe pre and the post and you
compare and say, oh, thisprogram has moved these kids
from feeling not confident, toconfident.
Boom, we're successful.
It's fair, right?
It's fair to make that, but whatit doesn't measure is will the
employers look at this studentand say they're employable.
(24:43):
We don't ask that questionbecause then that puts the
responsibility and the solutionon the people with power.
We keep trying to fix theindividual but not the system.
So that's where I like to lookat data a lot, and I like to
encourage data collection in adifferent way so that you're
measuring the thing with thepower or the system instead of
the individual, because you canonly change the individual so
(25:05):
much.
If you throw someone in theocean, they don't know how to
swim.
There's only so many floatiesyou can put on them.
And even if you teach'em toswim, at the moment, they are in
the ocean.
They can only swim so longwithout more support.
Joy Blue (25:17):
Right.
Kam Yee (25:18):
So that's the harder question, right?
That second level question thatyou ask.
And boy, there is a lot ofresistance, a lot of resistance
to measure that.
Joy Blue (25:29):
Yeah, because that means accountability and
accountability is wonderfullyterrifying.
Kam Yee (25:36):
And it's work.
And I think there's a fear thataccountability means that
certain people will lose out.
And that's where that zero sumthinking comes in, right?
That there's only five spots,and if I'm gonna let you have
it, that means I lose a spot.
And that's not always the case.
Joy Blue (25:54):
Yeah.
It's interesting too, to listento your process of how you're
getting here because you'restarting, like if this was
instructional design, you'restarting with the end in mind
and you're working backwards.
Where I'm hearing you say a lotof processes start at the
beginning and build it fromthere and it's so true.
Looking out into the world,there aren't a lot of places
(26:17):
that are truly open andwelcoming to all.
Kam Yee (26:23):
So I'm in Seattle tech town, right?
And it amazes me that we don'thave like a substantial woman
owned consulting firm that woulddo programming for folks.
I cannot believe we don't haveone.
We have one school in this areacalled ADA Academy and they help
(26:43):
women do career change intocomputer science careers.
But I'm just so surprised, andmaybe it exists out there and I
don't know, like why is it thatwe don't have a woman owned
business that is specialized incomputer science.
I have a few guesses why wedon't have that, and I'm sure
you have a few guesses.
(27:04):
So why we don't have that, and Iam going to assume that it's
been attempted,
Joy Blue (27:11):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (27:12):
but they're not getting the champions and the support or
the loans
Joy Blue (27:16):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (27:17):
or the investors to, to believe
Joy Blue (27:20):
Yeah.
Well, it comes back to who hasto pay the cost.
Kam Yee (27:23):
Right?
Yeah.
Who has to pay the cost andwho's willing to be that
champion?
If you look at some jobscarefully when they hire for
diversity stuff, the word riskis in there.
So if they hire for a diversitymanager within a place, you'll
see the word risk and you know,like, why is this in here?
(27:44):
Just search for it.
You'll see it.
It's really weird.
I started noticing that a fewyears ago.
Like I've seen it, but it didn'treally click in my head that
wait, other program managementjobs don't talk about diversity
as a risk, so how are employersviewing having to make their
place more inclusive?
They see it as a risk.
Joy Blue (28:05):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (28:06):
is that?
Right?
Risk for who?
Because it's not a risk for meto be Awesome.
So whose risk is it?
Joy Blue (28:13):
right.
Kam Yee (28:14):
Yeah, that would be, that will actually be a really
cool study to just look at jobpostings for anything that's
like a lead in any kind ofdiversity, and how often, like
what percentage of them mentionsthe word risk?
Joy Blue (28:30):
Yeah.
What I'm hearing you talk aboutnow is so closely tied to what I
hear in your voice when you talkabout space.
Is there's so much morepossibility out there.
And what I hear you lead with iscuriosity.
Kam Yee (28:43):
Right.
Joy Blue (28:44):
I hear you lead with is empathy and wanting to fight
for that equity.
Because I mean, in an idealworld, it shouldn't be hard.
Because we're all human.
Kam Yee (28:56):
Right.
It shouldn't be hard, but youknow, having an equitable world,
if it's easy, we would've doneit before.
Like in a way it's easy, butit's also not easy.
It's easy in that the steps todo it.
Like I hear this from, Greatallies all the time.
I just don't know how to dothis.
I don't know what steps to take.
I'm like, no, it's not thathard.
(29:16):
Like how do you keep women andpeople of color in STEM
workforce?
You just have good management,basic management stuff, right?
Basic clear pathways topromotion, fair compensation,
pay transparency, goodhealthcare, flexible work, and
accommodations when you havelife events.
(29:38):
Those are all basic things thatnobody is hurt by them, but it
retains people and it retainswomen and it retains people of
color.
But it's hard because there'sresistance.
So like the actual mechanism ofhow to make it better isn't
hard.
But there's resistance.
(29:58):
And there's also willfulignorance to it too.
So, another thing we talk aboutin STEM education, and this is.
A subset of folks, right?
It's the folks who are liketrying to move the needle.
We're trying to make progressand do the work to make it more
equitable is you have programsthat work really well that
started out with a well fundedschool, and mostly boys
(30:23):
participate in that program andthey take that exact program and
try to replicate it at a schoolthat is not well funded, that
might be co-ed and might be veryDiverse in composition based as
far as racial identity orreligious identity, that is a
mixture.
And surprise.
That program doesn't quite workfor that population.
(30:44):
And then they go, oh, these kidsare so interested.
They're just not as good at it.
Right?
It's well,
Joy Blue (30:51):
Are you blaming the kids or are you blaming the
program?
Kam Yee (30:56):
Well, there's, it's usually saying the kids aren't
interested.
We don't know why they don'tcome to this program.
Well, it was set up in a waythat doesn't work for them.
Right.
And
Joy Blue (31:04):
to know your audience.
Kam Yee (31:05):
and then the, then the next step is, oh, we gotta meet
them halfway.
So I hear that all the time.
Meeting halfway.
And I like to take that out ofpeople's language when they talk
about STEM education andoutreach in that way.
Because meeting halfway impliesthat you have this gold standard
of the white boys with money orwith access, not necessarily
(31:26):
even with money, right?
There's, I've met some reallyawesome folks with humble
beginnings because they're whiteand male, or in tech, asian and
male.
East Asian specifically, theyfit in really easily and they
can pass those hurdles.
And myself, as an Asian woman, Iam seen as fitting into the tech
(31:49):
world because you do see some ofus as not great, but you know,
there are not a lot of us and wehit a lot of barriers, but you
at least see a couple of them upthere, right?
So.
When you develop programs thatwork there and it doesn't apply
to students that have differentjust not necessarily less, but
(32:11):
just a different set ofresources available to them.
We think meeting it halfway asif we have to lower the
standards of.
Joy Blue (32:19):
Yeah.
Kam Yee (32:20):
Of your, the white boys who have access to things or are
given access or giving thebenefit of the doubt through
their learning journey.
Right.
I remember talking with somebodywho works at a state government
level helping minority ownedbusiness and trying to get them
contracts with government.
Cuz the government gives ussolicitation and oftentimes
(32:43):
minority owned businesses don'tknow how to go through the
process to bid for them.
So he helps them to walk'emthrough the technical aspect of
okay, this is how you do anapplication.
This is how this is how younavigate the system there so
that they can be empowered to dothat and bid on different kinds
of contracts.
And then we're talking aboutcontracts like being a food
service provider at acourthouse, things like.
(33:04):
That any business can prettymuch fulfill.
Right?
He said that the biggest hurdlehe has to convince is actually
people doing the hiring, notseeing minority owned business
as an inferior business or witha lesser quality.
And I get to be on scholarshippanels, sometimes, I get to be
with interview panels and thatcomes up again and again, that
(33:26):
when it's a woman or any kind ofhistorically marginalized group,
immediately, well, we gotta meetthem halfway.
But what does that mean?
That means you're assuming whatthey're bringing is inferior and
a lower
Joy Blue (33:38):
looking, You're looking down.
Like you're automaticallysaying, oh, you're so below.
I mean, that is woven into ourculture
Kam Yee (33:47):
Right, right.
And
Joy Blue (33:48):
And it's not okay.
Kam Yee (33:49):
So working, corporate America stuff and gosh, I don't
even wanna say corporateAmerica, just in America because
I've faced this in nonprofitstoo.
It's in small orgs and smallbusinesses.
You hear that rhetoric and youhave to just kinda start being a
little subversive and sometimesit's outright, Hey, not cool,
(34:09):
don't do that.
And other times it's just, I'mgonna start saying it so you're
comfortable with the way that weshould talk about this.
So a little combination of that.
Joy Blue (34:19):
That's beautiful.
Kam Yee (34:21):
So that's what I try to do.
Joy Blue (34:23):
one final thing.
Kam Yee (34:24):
Yeah.
Joy Blue (34:25):
What do you want my listeners to know and take away
from this conversation?
Kam Yee (34:29):
I want your listeners, everyone, specifically men,
white people, start having theseconversations.
Have space, safe spaces, andtalk to each other about it.
Right?
I know it can be kind of scaryand intimidating to go find like
people that you may not knowvery well and say, let's talk
(34:49):
about race.
It's okay if you have aconversation and you don't
really learn some big ahamoment.
But just having thatconversation, Having the
conversation with people who arejust like you, that's okay too.
You don't only wanna do it andbecome an echo chamber.
Joy Blue (35:08):
Right,
Kam Yee (35:09):
Right, which is what we see on social media now.
Or you curate it and you onlytalk about it, but it's okay to
practice those conversationsbefore you take it to someone
that maybe is a little bitdifferent than you.
Have a couple of practice roundfirst, and that is okay.
You are totally allowed to talkabout race and talk about gender
equity within your group ofwhatever privilege you have.
(35:32):
So please practice those andthen have the bigger
conversation with other peopletoo.
And then I think second thing iswhatever change you're trying to
make, just find your nearestwoman of color, preferably a
black or indigenous woman.
Do whatever she tells you to do.
Joy Blue (35:49):
Yep.
Kam Yee (35:50):
Just find your nearest woman of color, follow their
direction, and they will leadyou to where you want to be, and
you will like yourself more.
Joy Blue (36:00):
Amen.
All of us are worth being at thetable.
Thank you so much for your time,Kam.
This has been amazing.
Kam Yee (36:08):
So fun.
Thanks for listening to mysoapbox and it's just so fun to
talk with somebody else who'syeah, I can feel safe to be
like, I just be my full self.
Joy Blue (36:16):
That's right.
Kam Yee (36:16):
Aww
Joy Blue (36:18):
So here we are.
What a delightful time I hadwith Kam during this interview.
I love how she approached thisconversation in such a meta way.
She came to the table withcuriosity, just as she is also
asking us to move into therealms of discussing race and
equity in the same way.
I am so grateful Kam exists inthis world, and I'm looking
(36:40):
forward to seeing where ourfriendship goes from here.
Thank you again, Kam if you'vegot a flavor of nerd that you
want me to celebrate, I wouldlove to hear all about it.
So go ahead and email me atherewearethepodcast@gmail.com
and tell me everything.
I love taking time to sit andmake space for nerd to be
celebrated.
If you really liked this podcastand want to financially support
(37:02):
what I'm doing, head on over toPatreon.com, search for here we
are the podcast and sign up forone of the many beautifully
written support tiers.
So until next time, don't forgetthe curiosity wins and the world
needs more nerds.
Bye.
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