May 2, 2021 • 49 mins
Going from quarantine to socializing again has been super weird for lots of people. That, plus... what to do about this vaccine thing, anyway? To vaccinate or not to vaccinate? That is the question.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Raphael Freeman (00:07):
Welcome to heterodox Americana. This is a
show about thinking outside thebox, and examining the
conventional wisdom that informshow we think and shapes how we
see the world around us. Thequestion that we're ultimately
trying to get at is, how do ourunexamined ideas impact our
ability to thrive as humanbeings. And it's our intention
(00:27):
to unpack some of these ideas,take a fresh heterodox
perspective, that hopefullyleads us somewhere new. My name
is Raphael Freeman, and I'm oneof your hosts.
Angie Backues (00:38):
And I'm Angie Backus, another one of your
hosts.
Raphael Freeman (00:43):
So people are getting vaccinated. How about
that?
Angie Backues (00:46):
Yeah. As in people like that, you know, or
Raphael Freeman (00:51):
I'm just saying it's happening. It's rolling
out? Yeah. Also people that Iknow, and people that I don't
know, where they go withoutsaying, people that I know are
doing it. And I also have some,some people that I know who are
absolutely not doing it, wherehe's telling this whole thing.
Angie Backues (01:12):
Oh, I'm a pro.
pandemic vaxxer. I think I wantpeople to get it,
Unknown (01:20):
I got it.
Angie Backues (01:22):
It's gonna, you know, it's gonna, I think it'll
keep me safe. It'll keep myfamily safe. And pretty soon,
I'm going to go back into myoffice. So
Raphael Freeman (01:34):
are you looking forward to that?
Angie Backues (01:36):
Well, that was one of the things that I think
is has come up with thevaccination, what it means to
start to turn turn your lifeback outside, rather than being
inside? And how people areworking with that these days. I
think I have mixed feelings.
What about you,
Raphael Freeman (01:58):
mixed feelings about going back into your
office,
Angie Backues (02:00):
like you going back out into the world or
moving outside of whereveryou're, you've stayed isolated?
Raphael Freeman (02:08):
You know, so I have a personality disorder.
I've never said this on the showbefore, but I have a personality
disorder. It's calledschizotypal personality
disorder. SPD for short, right?
Part of like SPD groups,especially on Reddit, but other
places on the internet to mypsychologist, over 2021
(02:31):
confirmed that I met thedisorder level. And I gotta say,
you know, for, for people whohave SPD, I'm on the rocket
inside,
Unknown (02:48):
like, I'm, oh, rocking,
Raphael Freeman (02:50):
I'm rocking it, right. I mean, for some people,
it's, it's, it's, it's crushing,it's detrimental to just their
well being. For a lot of SPDpeople, it's not like part of
the part of the disorder is notcaring. It's like, it's like, I
don't care. And that's true fora lot of people that I talked
(03:13):
to. It's also true for me, mostof the ways, most of the ways,
and so it's not quite true. Theexception is my relationship
with with progeny, but most ofthe ways that that I'm
deficient, I don't really care.
So here's some real lifeexamples. So people with
(03:33):
schizotypal personalitydisorders tend to enjoy just
fewer things, and they enjoythings less. And I'm not sure if
I've ever said it, you know, onthe podcast, or at least in this
context, but there are like lotsof things that humans find
enjoyable that I don't like livemusic, and concerts, which sort
of, you know, I mean, that'salmost the same thing. Although
(03:54):
there are a lot of musicperformances that are not
concerts right. So I wouldn't doany of that. Let flowers or
dance any kind of dance. Ireally like to watch dance, not
ballet, not breakdancinganything, right. And I also
don't enjoy dancing that much,pretty much not at all. I'll do
(04:14):
it. But I don't enjoy it. Andyou know, when I was younger, I
realized that there was a reasonthat people love them so much
and I was like this is a wasteof time but turns out that my
brain is wired and however it'swired and whatever. I don't want
to go on too much about SPD but,but in terms of what it means to
get back to life as it was. Idon't miss it. I don't miss the
(04:41):
socialization. I don't miss thepeople. I don't miss my friends.
Actually. I don't miss it. Sohere's something about me. I
don't miss people ever right? Idon't miss my dad, mom. I'll
miss people when they're faraway and knows so for me Um, you
know, I don't know if that seemscool, but you know, it's just
(05:02):
how it works for me. There's noelement other than, like, Decent
Espresso varieties, which Ican't get home in the same way.
Because I don't have I don'thave a, you know, $6,000 best
machine and $1,000 grinder. Butif I did, I would say, I'm set.
(05:24):
So, you know, there's nothingabout the sort of, you know, the
outside world that I reallymiss. There's nothing that I'm
eager to run back to. There arelots of people that have
contacted me who are like, youknow, hey, we should hang out.
And I'm like, Huh,
Unknown (05:46):
should we though?
Raphael Freeman (05:48):
So I don't have that eagerness at all, to get
back to anything. I'm deeply,completely satisfied and enjoy
myself sitting in front of acomputer.
Unknown (06:04):
Yeah, wow.
Angie Backues (06:08):
I guess this could you know, be a show that
SPD could be it could be a showabout vaccines, it could be a
show about what it means for usto emerge back into the world.
You know, you're, I think you'reon the extreme end of what it
has been like for a year ofisolation and noting how little
(06:33):
you enjoy the outside world. Ithink you knew this probably
yes. about yourself.
Raphael Freeman (06:38):
Yeah. But so yes, but I had a really good
time during quarantine. Okay.
Really get that,
Angie Backues (06:45):
but and was the good time because there was no
pressure around any of that, orexpectation?
Raphael Freeman (06:50):
No, I just discovered so much about myself
and some things about marketing.
And you know, I had some bigrevelations with with
meditation, that kind of stuff.
You know, it was less aboutpressure and expectation, and
more about just the fact that Igot into a groove that was was
really groovy. And I just didn'twant it to stop. Yeah, yeah.
Angie Backues (07:15):
Yeah, it sounds like, you know, you've had a
good pandemic year.
Raphael Freeman (07:20):
Yeah. I mean, I don't want to get lost in this.
But you What was I mean, are youeager to, I mean, you were
started with this, but I didn'thave a clear sense as to whether
you're going to get back or
Angie Backues (07:32):
I'm mixed. I'm having conflict about it. But
one of the things that I've beennoting is, as I've talked to
people is there, this is outthere, they there are people
that have discovered that theirlives pre pandemic, were kind of
on this automatic pilot aroundtheir activity. And when that
(07:56):
got shut down, I thinkinitially, a lot of people felt
the loss of that. And it waspretty, it was pretty stark
around, but life before andafter the shutdown, and
quarantine. And now after it'sgone on for a while I'm talking
(08:16):
to people that realize that whatthey were doing with their life,
the way it was structured beforequarantine was, was this really
hurried way of living. And someof them have decided that that
was kind of an unthoughtfullife, and they hadn't really
paid attention to what they weredoing. They just knew that they
(08:38):
needed to do. And after a yearof this, it's a lot of people
I've noted have been payingattention to, you know, what
they really want in terms ofactivity or social social
situations, and are confusedbecause they've identified in
this really active way for solong. And now it's being they're
(09:00):
negotiating or renegotiating andfeeling self conscious about it
feeling a little bit taken bytheir lack of wanting to, you
know, jump back in, and evenfeel sometimes guilty about not
wanting to re engage all thestuff that they knew. And I
would put myself in that camp. Idon't think I was ever
(09:21):
particularly really busy. Butyou know, I think one of the
things that I've noted my lifebefore quarantine was a lot of
it. My social engagements weredinner out. I live in
Philadelphia, there's so manygreat restaurants here and I
like to explore new food and Ilike to try new drinks and I
(09:44):
find that that's a really niceway to connect with other people
is over food and going out to anice meal and, or even, you
know, a fun meal. And so that'sI spent a ton of time doing that
and a lot of money doing it.
Yeah, and I think when thiswhole thing shut down, I missed
that a lot. And, but now I'mfinding, you know, relaxation
(10:07):
and figuring out meal planning.
And I'm also really taken withthe amount of money that is not
going out every week aroundbuying food out. And it's
shifted my, my thoughts, youknow, around how I want to do
(10:27):
this going forward.
Raphael Freeman (10:29):
So it sounds like you're mixed. Your, your,
your mix, I can't hold on themixed strategy. But it sounds
like your mixed position has todo with some of that sort of
standing social pressure thathad to do with how you related
to your friends and how yourelated socially in the world.
But also, this new discovery of,you know, the things that you
can do as alternative likeplanning meals and having
(10:51):
enjoying your time not being outis that like a fair sort of
assessment of that how that mixworks?
Angie Backues (10:57):
Yeah, I think it's fair, I'm not, or enjoying
my time not being out. That's,that's still I have to figure
that out. Because I don't wantto completely isolate myself
anymore. But what I've noticedis, is what I appreciate, can
appreciate and where my mind isgoing lately is having people in
(11:20):
my home, or going to someoneelse's home. And I think part of
that is because it was just sotaken from us that that year of
nobody gets in anybody else'sbubble, or pot as it were, and
what it's like to have peoplestep through the threshold
threshold of my front door, itfeels so nice. And it feels the
(11:42):
same when I go to someone else'splace. So maybe it's not, you
know, the really beautifulrestaurants. But I think maybe,
you know, thinking of just youknow, fixing a meal and having
people for dinner, or viceversa,
Raphael Freeman (11:55):
introducing some variety.
Unknown (11:57):
Yes.
Raphael Freeman (11:58):
They're the Tony Robbins types out there.
Tony Robbins types of Tony talksabout these six human needs. And
they are, at least in hisformulation, the six human needs
that, you know, the way that heputs it, I should, I should say
from from from, from the get go,is that what Tony Robbins does
(12:19):
is he just adapts something thatalready came from Laszlo. It's
really, Maslow's Hierarchy justsort of adapted and made, like,
you know, like more digestible,but it goes the other six human
needs. And the top two are thefirst two or both the need for
security or stability. And thenright after that is the need for
(12:41):
variety. Sometimes he framesthat in terms of certainty and
uncertainty. But one of thethings that he noticed that
these are in some ways, they'rethey're in Contra position to
each other in opposition to eachother, that we the things that
give us variety, are differentthan the things that give us
stability, but too muchstability, and then we become
bored, too much variety, andthen we feel out of control. And
(13:03):
then we need more stabilityagain. So there's a tug of war
between our need for variety andour need for certainty or
stability. The other six, youknow, the other four, whatever,
that's a different show. Butthis sort of human need for
variety is a real thing. And,and I certainly get especially
(13:23):
like if anything, even with thesort of global uncertainty of
what was happening in the world,and what's happening in the
economy and what's gonna happento outcomes and sicknesses and
deaths, and so on and so forth.
There's a lot of uncertaintythat's happening in that realm.
But for so many people in thepersonal realm, their lives were
(13:45):
kind of the same day in and dayout and had a lot of certainty
of what Tuesday was going tolook like. Because Monday look
the same way and last Fridaylook the same way. And, you
know, until Yeah, I get it, Iget the desire for, for that
kind of variety to come andknew. I was just talking to an
old friend who was reallylooking forward to he lives in
(14:08):
the middle of I don't know theplanes right in the middle. So I
shouldn't put it this way in myhead and my East Coast head and
my East Coast brain. Everythingbetween California and
Pennsylvania is just like oneflat plane. I know that
Chicago's in the middle, like Iknow that sort of theoretically,
but my geography so but likethis is all squares in there.
(14:30):
Oh, rectangles, okay. ExceptNevada has a weird shape, I
think or Arizona when I'manyway. It's mostly rectangles.
It's like the east coast inCalifornia. And they're like two
states north of California. Butlike, Who cares? It's just like
coffee or something. Right?
That's my, that's my marriage,
Unknown (14:48):
my family.
Angie Backues (14:50):
I'm so bad at geography.
Raphael Freeman (14:53):
But so he lives in one of these rectangles. And
he was like, really lookingforward. Yeah, he lives in one
of the rectangles in the middle.
That's a. And you know, here'swhat I find to for the people
who live in the middlerectangles. And I know you're
out there. I know they'relistening. They know that they
live in one of the middlerectangles. Yeah, I mean, it's
not like they don't know, likethey know. Right. So they have
(15:17):
ideas about the East Coast. Andthat's some of it's truly East
Coast at heart.
Angie Backues (15:25):
I just don't know that they know it was a
rectangle. I mean, now they do.
They can call it a rectangle.
Now. I don't think they werecalling it rectangle Boston map.
Raphael Freeman (15:33):
Okay, my only loss here. Yeah, part of my add
is I'll get lost anywhere. And Ienjoy it right. Don't get me
talking about hot dogs.
Unknown (15:41):
So he, he's living in that Mexico,
Raphael Freeman (15:43):
he lives in a rectangle, and
Unknown (15:47):
Kansas, Kansas got it.
That that correcting
Raphael Freeman (15:51):
that particular rectangle. And he saw all of
this to say he was lookingforward to going out to a
restaurant because he hadn'tbeen out in a year. And that
need for variety is real.
There's a long way to say that Iwas able to, I think just
yesterday, meet up with, youknow, an old buddy who sort of
(16:15):
like a linguistic twin of mine,he has lots of linguistic
interests that overlap withmine, weirdly, our competition
wants and he slightly nudged meon, it made me want to like
anyway. But a really cool guy isthe person who Jeremiah's his
name, he's the person with whomI probably have the most
(16:36):
linguistic interest with. Andanother, I guess, acquaintance
is probably the better word.
But, you know, another reallygood smart guy that I had met,
probably close to 18 years ago.
And we all got together andtalked to talk politics, mostly,
(16:59):
but also like, talk about somespirituality stuff. And that
type of variety was good for me,especially, you know, one
because I hadn't been I mean,we're out in the park, which
feels, you know, I liked theparks, enough city parks, were
out in the park and got to talkto politics and just sort of you
know, was were able to ideatekind of off each other. And that
(17:21):
was really cool, too. So this isone of the human needs probably
diminished for me that need forvariety. But I totally get the
impulse of people or like, pullhim up in a hair and me looks
like need, I gotta do somethingdifferent. That's a legit thing.
And
Angie Backues (17:36):
so quickly, I'm just wondering as, as this SPD,
how was it? I mean, it soundslike you're talking about is a
positive experience.
Unknown (17:46):
Oh, yeah. Yeah,
Raphael Freeman (17:47):
it was it was great. I, the dynamic was, was
really cool in such a way thatit's that type of synergy is, is
relatively rare for me. I thinkwe were sort of politically
close to each other, but notquite in the same position. But
there were like no ideologuesamongst us, right. Like,
(18:09):
they're, you know, I mean, whenI say no ideologues, it's like,
people have a general sense ofhow I show up, but I'm not all
one way, right? I'm, yeah, I'mnot all the way. They weren't
all one way. It's the wholenuance thing. And that's always
(18:29):
refreshing. You know, it'srefreshing amongst two people.
But amongst three, you get asort of synergy. That's,
Angie Backues (18:34):
but I was considering you had mentioned,
you know, no, like, there's nodesire for social interaction.
But it sounds like there's anopenness when there's this kind
of synergy. And that you foundthat to be engaging after this
long year.
Raphael Freeman (18:49):
Yeah. I mean, there's, I don't miss it. Right.
And there's certainly not likean overwhelming urge. I've been
fortunate enough to have afriend group that, you know, if
I do acquiesce to the idea ofSure, let's do something social.
I can count on my friend groupenough to be like they're going
(19:10):
to deliver sort of just likehigh quality ideas in a way that
it's going to be worth my while.
Angie Backues (19:19):
Yeah, I am. I hear that. I think, you know, as
we continue to figure this stuffout. Well, you're you're
vaccinated. Right. Are you partof it, too, so you felt safe
enough to do it?
Raphael Freeman (19:33):
Yeah, you know, I don't know if I would have
phrased it that way. But yeah, Ithink that's true. I probably
made fun of so far fewer people.
Maybe I've met up three timeswith Pete for maybe before I was
vaccinated was outside six feetaway the whole time. So
Angie Backues (19:49):
yeah, it's it's interesting too, because I think
people I've had people talkabout their experience of being
in rooms with vaccinated people,because you know, you can do
that now. What it's like to feelthe conflict still, because
we've been doing something for ayear, and we've habituated to
something, our brains have said,dangers is more than, you know,
(20:10):
four people in a room if you'renot six feet apart with the mask
on. So people talk about havebeen talking about this to this
idea that even though it's okay,and you know, the CDC says CDC
says it's acceptable, theconflict is still happening for
people, they they findthemselves feeling anxious, and
(20:31):
then realize, oh, oh, that's,that's why I'm anxious, because
this is not supposed to behappening, although it is, I was
talking to my friend, Charmaine,a couple days ago, and in my
backyard, and she was talkingabout that, like, she's going
out into the world into theseplaces that, you know, now her
family's vaccinated. And it'sstill she doesn't feel
(20:52):
comfortable, she knows thatrationally, she is, but she has
all this anxiety around, havingdone something particular in
isolation for so long that nowbeing with people feels a little
odd.
Raphael Freeman (21:06):
That to me makes I part of me wants to
blame the basal ganglia. Thebasal ganglia is this part of
the brain that is essentiallyit's responsible for like habit
building, and repetitive, like,you know, very various types of
memories, right, you know, somememories like your, your, your,
your ability to remember how totie a shoe. And then I think
(21:28):
that's called procedural memory.
And then you have your abilityto remember, like, where you
left your keys. Remember whatthat's called, I want to say
operational, but that's probablynot it. Either way, you know,
memory is one of these, theseare things but it seems to be
the basal ganglia, part of yourbrain is responsible for the
things that you do repetitivelyprocedural memory, tying your
(21:51):
shoe, so on and so forth. And,you know, as we were learning
new behaviors, and newmodalities of how to interact
with each other, which took timeand you can remember, in the
beginning, it was a lot ofresistance, you mean
Angie Backues (22:04):
resistance in the beginning of the pandemic?
Raphael Freeman (22:07):
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. There was a
lot of resistance around themasks and social, I mean, we saw
it right, but especially aroundthe social distance, distancing
aspects, lots of resistance,both in the in the in the red
states and blue states. Andeventually, we hit some point of
equilibrium after we'd beendoing it enough that the the
(22:31):
flip switch, this became the,you know, for all the people
were like, hashtag no newnormal. This was like the the
new normal that emerged, and anew set of behaviors and, and,
you know, relatedness, you know,between people, and lots of that
is just gets stored in the partof your brain where it's like,
I'm doing this set of activitiesover and over and over again,
(22:53):
one hour, the, you know, the,the guidelines have changed, and
people have a new some peopleare like, they can't wait to get
back to quote unquote, the waythings were. Although hashtag
rip the way things were.
Hashtag, rip. That's nevercoming back. Not the way we knew
(23:13):
it. But that's neither here northere. My point is, your brain
having made a new set of mentalrepresentations about how to
relate to one another and tostrangers. But that's, that's
all. It's gonna feel weird. Now.
(23:37):
I feel like I mean, you know,whether you're a germaphobe or
not, but people feel a littlebit creepier than they used to
feel right. Money sits next toyou. What, why are you so close?
Angie Backues (23:49):
Right? Well, I still find myself, you know,
even if I'm asked, and have beenthis whole year, if I'm outside,
like, if I'm passing someday Imove, you know, on the other
side of this, not cross thestreet, but I move on the other
side of the sidewalk, notbecause I find them dangerous.
It's just to you know, respectour space. At my 15 year old
(24:11):
was, I was telling her that theCDC guidelines have changed now
that if she's out with me, I'mvaccinated. She can't be because
she's 15. But she's out with me.
We take walks often, she doesn'thave to wear a mask. That kid is
not going to leave the mask. Andso this is the thing to She is
like it you know, I told her Isaid you can take it off and she
(24:31):
said no, I'm gonna keep it on
Raphael Freeman (24:34):
the mask feels comfortable. Now, it's
uncomfortable in the beginningnow feels like That's right.
Well, safety blanket
Angie Backues (24:39):
what she said and you know, 15 year olds, that's a
particular you know, breedright. 15 year olds do these,
you know, they're so selfconscious anyway, but she was
saying she told me yesterday,she said, I remember how
embarrassed I was to wear it.
Like when we first startedwearing them. She said I was so
embarrassed, and I just thoughtthis was such a weird thing. And
she said And now I've switchednow I'm embarrassed almost to
(25:01):
not have it on. Right. So she'sdefinitely in her teenage brain
has, you know, this makes sensenow, and it feels like the way
to be outside. And I think forher, it's going to be this very
major shift. I mean, we walkedaround, I didn't have a mask on,
and she did.
Raphael Freeman (25:21):
So you weren't even there in solidarity. You
were like,
Unknown (25:24):
Oh, no, no, no,
Raphael Freeman (25:24):
you got their own struggles.
Unknown (25:26):
That's right.
Angie Backues (25:27):
I mean, you know, I still wear mine. Enough, if
I'm gonna be in a crowd ofpeople. And I think that's
mostly, you know, I'mvaccinated, but I want other
people to feel safe, I don'tknow who's vaccinated out there.
So I, it's kind of a signal forme to, you know, allow people to
feel safe around me. You know,when, you know, we live on the
(25:48):
East Coast, I mean, here,particularly in our
neighborhood, and thisneighborhood, there, you know,
it's been very massed, there'snot really been a lot of issues
around around whether or not itshould be a part of, of the way
people live, it just is, youknow, most people in West
Philadelphia are walking aroundwith the mask even now. So, you
(26:10):
know, I think living here, it'sbeen more of this issue around
not wearing the mask thanwearing the mask.
Raphael Freeman (26:17):
It's so you know, like, you talked about the
geography of it. And, you know,there are a lot of cultural ties
that happen to geography and howpeople sort of experiences both
that sort of like the geographiccultural level, but also like,
the political stuff that thathappens to a lot of the people
who are in this sort of culturalmilieu or geographic value, who
(26:41):
are like, you know, antivaxxers, or anti masters tend to
do so less for what we mightthink of as the traditional
political split and more forreasons that have to do with how
can I put it sorta conspiracytheory type stuff, or conspiracy
(27:05):
fears. And, you know, when it'sso I'm an apologist, for for
most unpopular position, not notbecause I want to be contrarian,
but I have this. For me, one ofthe things that is really
crucial to just for myself tounderstand is that even people
(27:25):
who I think are the mostirrational, probably have some
rationale. And they're notnearly as rational as we think
they are. Although I mean, don'tget me wrong, sometimes people
are. But a lot of times what'shappening is the, the
information that they're relyingon, is sometimes fundamentally
(27:46):
different than the informationthat somebody else is relying
on. And then they have topresent like, just what gets it
just the inputs are sodifferent. And the inputs are
really different now that, youknow, I'm a generation X er, and
I'm a little bit too young forthe Walter Cronkite of the
world. I know the name and Isort of know his status in his
position, the Dan rather's andthe what, like people, my mom
(28:08):
would watch, right? Who werecrucial in building a set of
just like a basis of informationthat America and across the
political spectrum could relyon. that's largely gone, right.
And Facebook doesn't help at allright? Facebook doesn't help at
(28:29):
all. So So, you know, as we'rein our our echo chambers, and
it's one thing just in terms of,you know, having the same
opinions, you know, regurgitatedand federalist, that's one thing
that we're all aware of, but butI would say just the sheer
points of information that we'reusing, and what gets through,
(28:52):
and then how they getsprocessed, that's also very,
very different for for people,you know, geographically and
politically. And then you haveto make sense of that
information, in light of all theinformation that has come before
it that you've taken. And giventhat I tend to have sympathy is
(29:13):
not the right word. But I tendto be able to see the
perspective of people who, whorely just on like a different
data set. I don't think it's notreally the right word, but they
rely on a different informationset in order to build a belief,
right. So what I'm going totangent and I'm going to come
back, you know, for the nonscientists that are out there,
which is like most people, youknow, I think I know one data
(29:35):
scientist, I know chemist tobiologists, right? So I know for
I think for for people who arelike they like their science oh
five, right. So this is anotherdata scientists out there as
well. No offense to my politicalscientist friends, because I
(29:55):
have a political scientistsfriend as well. Lots of them,
but that's not I want to talkabout I feel like I'm in the
backpedaling, but here's wherehere's where I'm going with
this. It's when I look at when Ilook at the something like
climate science, or or evenCoronavirus science. I know that
(30:18):
I don't have the qualificationsor even the mental
representations to cut to lookat those conclusions to look at
those studies. I don't mean likereports on studies, I mean, to
look at the actual studies, andthen come to my own conclusions.
I'm simply not I don't haveenough information. I don't have
enough scaffolding, you know,like it. I don't have an
(30:39):
education people that do right.
And so in that regard, it comesdown to trust, I decided to
trust a set of people. Andrealistically, these are people
that are don't even know. Butthe question at the end of the
day is really about who do wedecide to trust? And how do we
trust? And I, you know, I guessfor me, it doesn't, it's not
(31:01):
necessarily a straightforwardanswer, of whom to trust.
Angie Backues (31:10):
So what do you mean, when you say that? Well,
Raphael Freeman (31:14):
I guess one of the first people that I learned
to trust was like, my mother,right? Yeah, I was young, she
knew way more about the worldthan I did. She was able to
answer all my questions. Andshe's like, really good at that.
And whatever. That's like, lotsof people, lots of people trust
the parents. The parents knowthat, even if their parents are
not experts, right. But as westart to grow up, and as we
(31:36):
think, you know, as the, by thetime we become adults, lots of
times our information that wehave, will outstrip and you
know, especially given you know,the improvements in education
will outstrip the informationthat is available to our
parents. But that doesn't meanthat we trust there. Lots of
(31:57):
times, it doesn't mean that wetrust their opinions list. And
on lots of matters, we probablyshould like, you know what I
mean? Like you, my mom wouldn'tknow. And so this core question
as to how do we know who tolisten to? How do we know whom
to trust? often that doesn't getits own evaluation, we don't
(32:17):
really build a model around howdo we know whom to trust, but
the place that I land? So if Iwere to look at like I said, I
have a lot of sympathy for bothsympathy and sort of apologetics
for the people who are sort ofanti vaccine not not because I
(32:40):
agree with their position. Butone, I know that they're they're
building their corpus of, ofinformation in a different way.
But also the the lack of trustis I mean, I think it's
justifiable is especially forblacks, right. So if, if the
Tuskegee experiment hadn'thappened, do you know the
Tuskegee experiment? Yes,
Unknown (33:01):
you could you want to touch on it a bit. Yeah. So for
Raphael Freeman (33:04):
people, you know, who don't know, I mean, I
think this was in making, I wantto say to Macon County, Georgia,
but even if it wasn't, here's awell, it couldn't have been like
Tuskegee, Reza, Tuskegee,Alabama. There's some geography
for you. in Tuskegee, there wasa syphilis. They wanted to see
what are the long term effectsof syphilis on a given
(33:24):
population. And so instead oftreating people even when the
the first, one of the earliertreatments for syphilis had to,
you know, it was based onMercury, and had some some
negative effects, becauseMercury is a heavy metal, but it
was a treatment and the effectsof the mercury was less than the
(33:45):
effects of long term syphilis,which always lead to death.
There was a group in Tuskegeethat wanted to study the long
term effects of syphilis on thisblack population. And instead of
treating them either with thefirst treatment, which was based
on Mercury, or the secondtreatment, which was way safer,
(34:08):
they did this longitudinal studythat allowed people to run the
they allow the disease to runthe course of the people's lives
until they died, so they couldstudy the effects. And in
compensation, I mean, this isnot even compensation because
people never agreed they justwere never offered proper
medical care. But what they didget for, for showing up and
(34:32):
allowing their and reporting,you know, their symptoms. They
got a lunch and they got a pinebox burial. That was that was
what they got in return fortheir involuntary partition
participation. And of course,there are things like operation
(34:54):
bootstrap that happened inPuerto Rico and you know, where
people were women. Were startingrealized against their their
will. There was anothersterilization campaign here on
the mainland United States. Soit's not like the medical
industry, and the United Statesgovernment doesn't have enough
(35:16):
of a record of betrayal andabuse of people who are non
white. It's super wellestablished. The it's, it's it's
a rampant problem, right. Andthere's still rapid problems
that happen right now, as wespeak, in terms of how medicine
treats people who aren't white,right? And so the distrust makes
(35:41):
total sense. But I get thatpart. And you can call the
people who, who take that thatoutlook, you can call them
conspiracy theorists, if youlike. But what we have is an
actual, like people conspire,right, it's a word for reason.
And we have these sort ofhistorical conspiracies that are
(36:01):
real and that people can pointto and so, you know, what do you
do with that? The thing that's alittle bit different about where
we are now, one has to do withhow broad the scope of where we
are now, how much transparencythere is, until it's not some
little, it's not a little townin Alabama. It's global, it's
(36:22):
worldwide. And we can see thatthe things that are happening in
Switzerland and things that arehappening in France, or, you
know, Thailand, in India, forGod's sakes, struggling, that
they mirror the things that havehappened or are happening here.
And that that should providesome transparency, that, you
(36:44):
know, people who are, are proneto distrust to say, well, it's
it's not about us, this is thisis happening everywhere, it
looks the same everywhere,especially if you look at news.
And if you don't look at newsoutside the United States,
please just, you know, go to BBCcalm or, you know, if you speak
in other languages, just readthe news, I'll tell the United
States, but you'll see that it'smatching, right, it's matching
(37:04):
everywhere. So in this case, itfor me comes back to this this
question about whom to trust,and how you build that trust.
And I think intuitively, we allknow that, if, if I were to call
my brother, let's say, who's nota carpenter, right, just fill in
the blank, if you're gonna callsomeone who's not a carpenter,
(37:24):
like, hey, I want to build aframe for my house. And that
person's like, Oh, I can do it.
You'd be like, You're, you'renot a carpenter. I'm not gonna
let you do it. Um, if Lisa delladown the road, this is just a
name that I picked up. But, youknow, if she decided that she
could treat my wound, and she'snot a medical professional, I
(37:47):
mean, we all have a sense thatI'm not gonna let you do
whatever hooli you're going todo to my wound to like a no, I'm
not gonna do that. Right, wethat part is clear.
Until, whom to trust, I think atthe most fundamental level, we
sort of get it except for whenit comes to this part. And I
(38:08):
understand the risks that peopleare weighing, when what's going
to happen in the long run. And Igotta say that as much as you
trust, a carpenter for yourcarpentry, and as much as you,
you know, whatever, you get themetaphor, it's because of the
amount of transparency becauseit's happening everywhere.
Because German doctors, right,like, who don't have any
(38:30):
relationship with United Statesmedical distrust whatsoever,
because German scientists andGerman doctors are coming to the
same conclusions. I think itmakes sense to, to trust the
world. On this, you know, theworld scientists in this
particular regard, even if thescientists in your own country
(38:53):
have betrayed you, or betrayedyour community or betrayed your
trust. It's simply not thatrelationship everywhere, and
South Korea, and China and likeeverybody is on the same page
with this. And that, for me isenough to say, hey, even if I
can interpret the data myself,even if I don't know anything
about, you know, Spike proteinsor anything else, it seems like
(39:16):
the entirety of the world ismoving in this direction. And
that for me, is tax trustworthy.
You're saying
Angie Backues (39:24):
You're pretty. So your thought is that this
vaccination plan is not aworldwide conspiracy?
Raphael Freeman (39:32):
I really don't think I really don't think that
I really don't think there doesand but like, Listen, I totally
get trust. And it all comes downto trust, whom we trust, and how
we're going to build that trust.
But in this particular case, Igotta side with I got to start
with the medical institutions inforeign countries that have
nothing to do with us and arecoming to their own conclusions.
(39:53):
Yeah,
Angie Backues (39:55):
I think you know, what you're saying it needs to
be you know, It's important thatwe understand that there's real,
there have been real issues andnon white communities. And we
can't ignore that the peoplehave, you know, they have this
history that tells them, thiscould get really tricky. I think
(40:16):
also, you were talking aboutwhat we do when we grow up with
a story that we have always kindof taken at the face, at face
value, it becomes a part of ourinternal working around how we
see the world. And again, youknow, giving credence to the
truth of all of what hashappened in the medical
(40:38):
community. But there's also, youknow, conspiracies that perhaps
we haven't quite unpacked, likeit becomes the story that we've
lived with for so long. I'llgive you an example. I was
talking to my mom this morning,actually, she was talking about
how she grew up thinking thatcats were cats, they animal cat,
(41:00):
you know, a domesticated cat.
What exactly was it, um, theyweren't likeable, and you
shouldn't have them, and youcertainly shouldn't have them in
the house. That was for hergrowing up. That was what she
was taught. Her dad didn't likethem. And she realized that for
years and years, she had hadthis adopted belief system that
cats were terrible creatures.
(41:24):
And, honestly, she was talkingabout she had just unpacked this
not too awful long ago. So ittook my mom some time, but she
was kind of chuckling about it.
But she said, I started thinkingcats aren't really, you know,
they're not bad. They're just mydad had told me for years that
they were. And so she grew upwith this negative bias towards
cats, until she startedunpacking that story and realize
(41:45):
that her her dislike for theanimal was because she had
internalized this and had neverrevisited it. Right. And I
think, you know, that, too, issomething we can consider if we
are leaning in a particulardirection, in a negative way, or
happy really examined the storythat we have held? And what is
(42:09):
it like to unpack it? You know,maybe you just visit that,
again,
Raphael Freeman (42:15):
I think that's really I think that's really
important for for, for anycommunity, black, white or
otherwise, here in the Statesnot to make that that binary
sort of, you know, analysis howthe United States works. But I
think revisiting those oldstories and the beliefs that we
inherit as adult is, and when wetalk about this enough, but
(42:38):
that's super critical for movingin, into living away. That is,
what true is to who you could beright, those voices, there's a
thing that I think is reallyhard, which is listening to your
own voice. You know, I thinkthere's a biblical way of
(42:59):
phrasing it that sort of seepedinto New Age. I think it's
biblical, but people call itthe, the still small voice
within the small still voicewithin. But But there, there is
an internal voice that we havethat guides us enough, and tells
us, I mean, I think gives usreally strong clues as to the
(43:23):
direction that we might move innot planning any kind of
mystical or magical way. Butjust in terms of how our
subconscious mind is processingloads of data from the
environment, from ourpreferences from our bodies, in
ways that consciously we're notaware of. There's a voice that
(43:44):
is in touch with other parts ofour, our process, our brain
processing, that that doesn'tnecessarily bubble up to, to,
you know, our consciousness. Soso in that regard, I think that
voice has some things to tellus, doesn't mean that it's
always right. But morefrequently, I find that there
(44:05):
are lots of people and sometimesyou can hear it in the way that
they phrase their the thingsthat that they say, there are
lots of people who the dominantvoice for them might be their
dad's voice might be their mom'svoice or sometimes a teacher or
a bully or whatever. And it'scrazy to watch someone
(44:26):
disentangle that that stillsmall voice within from all the
external voices. Maybe it's thepastor or minister or with a
Catholic color, like a priest orsomeone else who is close to
watch someone disentangle andthen hear their voice for the
first time right you know, I'min my practice, I've seen it
(44:46):
happen at least twice and bothtimes like oh, tears, right,
they got to hear their their ownvoice for the first time. But,
but because we do have aplethora of voices that are
constantly informing Those. Andthose voices end up in a loop,
they end up forming part of ournarrative that part of our, our
(45:08):
narrative loop. And I think thatis hard to break away from. But
obviously, they inform how wemake decisions, our values
around things like the medicalsystem, so on and so forth. And
if we don't examine that thing,then I think even moving into a
more authentic I hate to use theword but into a more authentic
(45:28):
and more us and less otherinformed idea of how we want to
show up in the world, thatbecomes much harder if we don't
examine, you know, the core setof inherited values, if you
will.
Angie Backues (45:40):
Yeah. And I think it's, it's hard to do unless
you're very intentionally, youknow, focused on it, unless
you're very conscious of it.
Like you were saying, you know,what your experience with people
when you get to that place whereyou can say, Wait, whose voice
was that and then becomesemotional. I remember the first
time I was in therapy years ago,and I was saying something, and
(46:01):
she said, whose voice? Is that?
Who who's saying that? You know,because it was just a very, you
know, it was a reaction whereit's a phrase I had said, 1000
times about myself? What was thebrief? Who do you think you are?
And, you know, she said, what,what voice is that? You know, is
(46:24):
that you saying that toyourself? And, and I got to the
place where I was like, Oh,yeah, no, I know, whose voice
This is so, and I hadn't everquestioned it. It was always,
you know, who do you think youare? And that was something I
would say to myself, right. Soif, you know, I think that you
have to be aware that you areoperating, like you said, you
(46:45):
know, we were born and we thefirst person we trust or, you
know, our parents are mom anddad, and then we build, you
know, our stories based on whatwe think about what they've told
us. And we have to start toparse that through. So you know,
as we continue to emerge, I callit complicated emergence. It's
(47:06):
okay, you know, whatever isgoing on, if you're feeling a
little, you know, it's getting alittle bit tricky, and you're
not quite figuring you haven'tquite figured out how to do
this. With a vaccination. You'restill trying to understand how
you feel about it. It's okay.
We're going to all figure thisout. Eventually, we figured out
how to be quarantined, we'llfigure out how to not be
(47:27):
quarantined. Just be patientwith yourself. Yeah, I
Raphael Freeman (47:32):
think that's a good word, to be patient with
yourself. Be compassionate withyourself. And wherever you end
up is going to be based on theinformation that is available to
you the belief systems and thetrust that you have in place.
And I think everybody's gonna doyou know what's best for them,
given the information that theyhave, and you know how they see
the world and that's fine. Wedon't need to have judgment
(47:56):
around that. Whateverequilibrium that we hit in the
future that's coming, we'll bethe one that we hit. Is genies
not going back in the bottle?
And we'll figure out how to, youknow, how to live our new lives?
We
Angie Backues (48:12):
definitely will.
It's gonna be okay. We'll getthere.
Raphael Freeman (48:16):
Right. Listen, if you've ended up, I mean,
thanks for making it this farwith this. And if you end up in
a position that's so drasticallydifferent and like, completely
understand how wrongheaded weare, let us know reach out on
Instagram, which is alwaysreliable and Facebook, which is
a little less reliable, and youknow, that's on us, but
(48:37):
Instagram is super reliable, butyou know, shoot us a message and
let us know your thoughts and welove pushback. I mean, we love
sorta you know, just justrehashing the, and being open
and trying to update ideas andyou know, open to new
understanding. So that'd beamazing. If you rate us,
hopefully highly on yourfavorite podcast platform, that
(49:00):
would be amazing. Tell yourfriends. Let's get like some
family and loved some hugs goingon and just all fall in. We
appreciate you listening man.
Thanks for hanging out.
Unknown (49:10):
Yeah. See ya.
Welcome to heterodox Americana. This is a
show about thinking outside thebox, and examining the
conventional wisdom that informshow we think and shapes how we
see the world around us. Thequestion that we're ultimately
trying to get at is, how do ourunexamined ideas impact our
ability to thrive as humanbeings. And it's our intention
(00:27):
to unpack some of these ideas,take a fresh heterodox
perspective, that hopefullyleads us somewhere new. My name
is Raphael Freeman, and I'm oneof your hosts.
Angie Backues (00:38):
And I'm Angie Backus, another one of your
hosts.
Raphael Freeman (00:43):
So people are getting vaccinated. How about
that?
Angie Backues (00:46):
Yeah. As in people like that, you know, or
Raphael Freeman (00:51):
I'm just saying it's happening. It's rolling
out? Yeah. Also people that Iknow, and people that I don't
know, where they go withoutsaying, people that I know are
doing it. And I also have some,some people that I know who are
absolutely not doing it, wherehe's telling this whole thing.
Angie Backues (01:12):
Oh, I'm a pro.
pandemic vaxxer. I think I wantpeople to get it,
Unknown (01:20):
I got it.
Angie Backues (01:22):
It's gonna, you know, it's gonna, I think it'll
keep me safe. It'll keep myfamily safe. And pretty soon,
I'm going to go back into myoffice. So
Raphael Freeman (01:34):
are you looking forward to that?
Angie Backues (01:36):
Well, that was one of the things that I think
is has come up with thevaccination, what it means to
start to turn turn your lifeback outside, rather than being
inside? And how people areworking with that these days. I
think I have mixed feelings.
What about you,
Raphael Freeman (01:58):
mixed feelings about going back into your
office,
Angie Backues (02:00):
like you going back out into the world or
moving outside of whereveryou're, you've stayed isolated?
Raphael Freeman (02:08):
You know, so I have a personality disorder.
I've never said this on the showbefore, but I have a personality
disorder. It's calledschizotypal personality
disorder. SPD for short, right?
Part of like SPD groups,especially on Reddit, but other
places on the internet to mypsychologist, over 2021
(02:31):
confirmed that I met thedisorder level. And I gotta say,
you know, for, for people whohave SPD, I'm on the rocket
inside,
Unknown (02:48):
like, I'm, oh, rocking,
Raphael Freeman (02:50):
I'm rocking it, right. I mean, for some people,
it's, it's, it's, it's crushing,it's detrimental to just their
well being. For a lot of SPDpeople, it's not like part of
the part of the disorder is notcaring. It's like, it's like, I
don't care. And that's true fora lot of people that I talked
(03:13):
to. It's also true for me, mostof the ways, most of the ways,
and so it's not quite true. Theexception is my relationship
with with progeny, but most ofthe ways that that I'm
deficient, I don't really care.
So here's some real lifeexamples. So people with
(03:33):
schizotypal personalitydisorders tend to enjoy just
fewer things, and they enjoythings less. And I'm not sure if
I've ever said it, you know, onthe podcast, or at least in this
context, but there are like lotsof things that humans find
enjoyable that I don't like livemusic, and concerts, which sort
of, you know, I mean, that'salmost the same thing. Although
(03:54):
there are a lot of musicperformances that are not
concerts right. So I wouldn't doany of that. Let flowers or
dance any kind of dance. Ireally like to watch dance, not
ballet, not breakdancinganything, right. And I also
don't enjoy dancing that much,pretty much not at all. I'll do
(04:14):
it. But I don't enjoy it. Andyou know, when I was younger, I
realized that there was a reasonthat people love them so much
and I was like this is a wasteof time but turns out that my
brain is wired and however it'swired and whatever. I don't want
to go on too much about SPD but,but in terms of what it means to
get back to life as it was. Idon't miss it. I don't miss the
(04:41):
socialization. I don't miss thepeople. I don't miss my friends.
Actually. I don't miss it. Sohere's something about me. I
don't miss people ever right? Idon't miss my dad, mom. I'll
miss people when they're faraway and knows so for me Um, you
know, I don't know if that seemscool, but you know, it's just
(05:02):
how it works for me. There's noelement other than, like, Decent
Espresso varieties, which Ican't get home in the same way.
Because I don't have I don'thave a, you know, $6,000 best
machine and $1,000 grinder. Butif I did, I would say, I'm set.
(05:24):
So, you know, there's nothingabout the sort of, you know, the
outside world that I reallymiss. There's nothing that I'm
eager to run back to. There arelots of people that have
contacted me who are like, youknow, hey, we should hang out.
And I'm like, Huh,
Unknown (05:46):
should we though?
Raphael Freeman (05:48):
So I don't have that eagerness at all, to get
back to anything. I'm deeply,completely satisfied and enjoy
myself sitting in front of acomputer.
Unknown (06:04):
Yeah, wow.
Angie Backues (06:08):
I guess this could you know, be a show that
SPD could be it could be a showabout vaccines, it could be a
show about what it means for usto emerge back into the world.
You know, you're, I think you'reon the extreme end of what it
has been like for a year ofisolation and noting how little
(06:33):
you enjoy the outside world. Ithink you knew this probably
yes. about yourself.
Raphael Freeman (06:38):
Yeah. But so yes, but I had a really good
time during quarantine. Okay.
Really get that,
Angie Backues (06:45):
but and was the good time because there was no
pressure around any of that, orexpectation?
Raphael Freeman (06:50):
No, I just discovered so much about myself
and some things about marketing.
And you know, I had some bigrevelations with with
meditation, that kind of stuff.
You know, it was less aboutpressure and expectation, and
more about just the fact that Igot into a groove that was was
really groovy. And I just didn'twant it to stop. Yeah, yeah.
Angie Backues (07:15):
Yeah, it sounds like, you know, you've had a
good pandemic year.
Raphael Freeman (07:20):
Yeah. I mean, I don't want to get lost in this.
But you What was I mean, are youeager to, I mean, you were
started with this, but I didn'thave a clear sense as to whether
you're going to get back or
Angie Backues (07:32):
I'm mixed. I'm having conflict about it. But
one of the things that I've beennoting is, as I've talked to
people is there, this is outthere, they there are people
that have discovered that theirlives pre pandemic, were kind of
on this automatic pilot aroundtheir activity. And when that
(07:56):
got shut down, I thinkinitially, a lot of people felt
the loss of that. And it waspretty, it was pretty stark
around, but life before andafter the shutdown, and
quarantine. And now after it'sgone on for a while I'm talking
(08:16):
to people that realize that whatthey were doing with their life,
the way it was structured beforequarantine was, was this really
hurried way of living. And someof them have decided that that
was kind of an unthoughtfullife, and they hadn't really
paid attention to what they weredoing. They just knew that they
(08:38):
needed to do. And after a yearof this, it's a lot of people
I've noted have been payingattention to, you know, what
they really want in terms ofactivity or social social
situations, and are confusedbecause they've identified in
this really active way for solong. And now it's being they're
(09:00):
negotiating or renegotiating andfeeling self conscious about it
feeling a little bit taken bytheir lack of wanting to, you
know, jump back in, and evenfeel sometimes guilty about not
wanting to re engage all thestuff that they knew. And I
would put myself in that camp. Idon't think I was ever
(09:21):
particularly really busy. Butyou know, I think one of the
things that I've noted my lifebefore quarantine was a lot of
it. My social engagements weredinner out. I live in
Philadelphia, there's so manygreat restaurants here and I
like to explore new food and Ilike to try new drinks and I
(09:44):
find that that's a really niceway to connect with other people
is over food and going out to anice meal and, or even, you
know, a fun meal. And so that'sI spent a ton of time doing that
and a lot of money doing it.
Yeah, and I think when thiswhole thing shut down, I missed
that a lot. And, but now I'mfinding, you know, relaxation
(10:07):
and figuring out meal planning.
And I'm also really taken withthe amount of money that is not
going out every week aroundbuying food out. And it's
shifted my, my thoughts, youknow, around how I want to do
(10:27):
this going forward.
Raphael Freeman (10:29):
So it sounds like you're mixed. Your, your,
your mix, I can't hold on themixed strategy. But it sounds
like your mixed position has todo with some of that sort of
standing social pressure thathad to do with how you related
to your friends and how yourelated socially in the world.
But also, this new discovery of,you know, the things that you
can do as alternative likeplanning meals and having
(10:51):
enjoying your time not being outis that like a fair sort of
assessment of that how that mixworks?
Angie Backues (10:57):
Yeah, I think it's fair, I'm not, or enjoying
my time not being out. That's,that's still I have to figure
that out. Because I don't wantto completely isolate myself
anymore. But what I've noticedis, is what I appreciate, can
appreciate and where my mind isgoing lately is having people in
(11:20):
my home, or going to someoneelse's home. And I think part of
that is because it was just sotaken from us that that year of
nobody gets in anybody else'sbubble, or pot as it were, and
what it's like to have peoplestep through the threshold
threshold of my front door, itfeels so nice. And it feels the
(11:42):
same when I go to someone else'splace. So maybe it's not, you
know, the really beautifulrestaurants. But I think maybe,
you know, thinking of just youknow, fixing a meal and having
people for dinner, or viceversa,
Raphael Freeman (11:55):
introducing some variety.
Unknown (11:57):
Yes.
Raphael Freeman (11:58):
They're the Tony Robbins types out there.
Tony Robbins types of Tony talksabout these six human needs. And
they are, at least in hisformulation, the six human needs
that, you know, the way that heputs it, I should, I should say
from from from, from the get go,is that what Tony Robbins does
(12:19):
is he just adapts something thatalready came from Laszlo. It's
really, Maslow's Hierarchy justsort of adapted and made, like,
you know, like more digestible,but it goes the other six human
needs. And the top two are thefirst two or both the need for
security or stability. And thenright after that is the need for
(12:41):
variety. Sometimes he framesthat in terms of certainty and
uncertainty. But one of thethings that he noticed that
these are in some ways, they'rethey're in Contra position to
each other in opposition to eachother, that we the things that
give us variety, are differentthan the things that give us
stability, but too muchstability, and then we become
bored, too much variety, andthen we feel out of control. And
(13:03):
then we need more stabilityagain. So there's a tug of war
between our need for variety andour need for certainty or
stability. The other six, youknow, the other four, whatever,
that's a different show. Butthis sort of human need for
variety is a real thing. And,and I certainly get especially
(13:23):
like if anything, even with thesort of global uncertainty of
what was happening in the world,and what's happening in the
economy and what's gonna happento outcomes and sicknesses and
deaths, and so on and so forth.
There's a lot of uncertaintythat's happening in that realm.
But for so many people in thepersonal realm, their lives were
(13:45):
kind of the same day in and dayout and had a lot of certainty
of what Tuesday was going tolook like. Because Monday look
the same way and last Fridaylook the same way. And, you
know, until Yeah, I get it, Iget the desire for, for that
kind of variety to come andknew. I was just talking to an
old friend who was reallylooking forward to he lives in
(14:08):
the middle of I don't know theplanes right in the middle. So I
shouldn't put it this way in myhead and my East Coast head and
my East Coast brain. Everythingbetween California and
Pennsylvania is just like oneflat plane. I know that
Chicago's in the middle, like Iknow that sort of theoretically,
but my geography so but likethis is all squares in there.
(14:30):
Oh, rectangles, okay. ExceptNevada has a weird shape, I
think or Arizona when I'manyway. It's mostly rectangles.
It's like the east coast inCalifornia. And they're like two
states north of California. Butlike, Who cares? It's just like
coffee or something. Right?
That's my, that's my marriage,
Unknown (14:48):
my family.
Angie Backues (14:50):
I'm so bad at geography.
Raphael Freeman (14:53):
But so he lives in one of these rectangles. And
he was like, really lookingforward. Yeah, he lives in one
of the rectangles in the middle.
That's a. And you know, here'swhat I find to for the people
who live in the middlerectangles. And I know you're
out there. I know they'relistening. They know that they
live in one of the middlerectangles. Yeah, I mean, it's
not like they don't know, likethey know. Right. So they have
(15:17):
ideas about the East Coast. Andthat's some of it's truly East
Coast at heart.
Angie Backues (15:25):
I just don't know that they know it was a
rectangle. I mean, now they do.
They can call it a rectangle.
Now. I don't think they werecalling it rectangle Boston map.
Raphael Freeman (15:33):
Okay, my only loss here. Yeah, part of my add
is I'll get lost anywhere. And Ienjoy it right. Don't get me
talking about hot dogs.
Unknown (15:41):
So he, he's living in that Mexico,
Raphael Freeman (15:43):
he lives in a rectangle, and
Unknown (15:47):
Kansas, Kansas got it.
That that correcting
Raphael Freeman (15:51):
that particular rectangle. And he saw all of
this to say he was lookingforward to going out to a
restaurant because he hadn'tbeen out in a year. And that
need for variety is real.
There's a long way to say that Iwas able to, I think just
yesterday, meet up with, youknow, an old buddy who sort of
(16:15):
like a linguistic twin of mine,he has lots of linguistic
interests that overlap withmine, weirdly, our competition
wants and he slightly nudged meon, it made me want to like
anyway. But a really cool guy isthe person who Jeremiah's his
name, he's the person with whomI probably have the most
(16:36):
linguistic interest with. Andanother, I guess, acquaintance
is probably the better word.
But, you know, another reallygood smart guy that I had met,
probably close to 18 years ago.
And we all got together andtalked to talk politics, mostly,
(16:59):
but also like, talk about somespirituality stuff. And that
type of variety was good for me,especially, you know, one
because I hadn't been I mean,we're out in the park, which
feels, you know, I liked theparks, enough city parks, were
out in the park and got to talkto politics and just sort of you
know, was were able to ideatekind of off each other. And that
(17:21):
was really cool, too. So this isone of the human needs probably
diminished for me that need forvariety. But I totally get the
impulse of people or like, pullhim up in a hair and me looks
like need, I gotta do somethingdifferent. That's a legit thing.
And
Angie Backues (17:36):
so quickly, I'm just wondering as, as this SPD,
how was it? I mean, it soundslike you're talking about is a
positive experience.
Unknown (17:46):
Oh, yeah. Yeah,
Raphael Freeman (17:47):
it was it was great. I, the dynamic was, was
really cool in such a way thatit's that type of synergy is, is
relatively rare for me. I thinkwe were sort of politically
close to each other, but notquite in the same position. But
there were like no ideologuesamongst us, right. Like,
(18:09):
they're, you know, I mean, whenI say no ideologues, it's like,
people have a general sense ofhow I show up, but I'm not all
one way, right? I'm, yeah, I'mnot all the way. They weren't
all one way. It's the wholenuance thing. And that's always
(18:29):
refreshing. You know, it'srefreshing amongst two people.
But amongst three, you get asort of synergy. That's,
Angie Backues (18:34):
but I was considering you had mentioned,
you know, no, like, there's nodesire for social interaction.
But it sounds like there's anopenness when there's this kind
of synergy. And that you foundthat to be engaging after this
long year.
Raphael Freeman (18:49):
Yeah. I mean, there's, I don't miss it. Right.
And there's certainly not likean overwhelming urge. I've been
fortunate enough to have afriend group that, you know, if
I do acquiesce to the idea ofSure, let's do something social.
I can count on my friend groupenough to be like they're going
(19:10):
to deliver sort of just likehigh quality ideas in a way that
it's going to be worth my while.
Angie Backues (19:19):
Yeah, I am. I hear that. I think, you know, as
we continue to figure this stuffout. Well, you're you're
vaccinated. Right. Are you partof it, too, so you felt safe
enough to do it?
Raphael Freeman (19:33):
Yeah, you know, I don't know if I would have
phrased it that way. But yeah, Ithink that's true. I probably
made fun of so far fewer people.
Maybe I've met up three timeswith Pete for maybe before I was
vaccinated was outside six feetaway the whole time. So
Angie Backues (19:49):
yeah, it's it's interesting too, because I think
people I've had people talkabout their experience of being
in rooms with vaccinated people,because you know, you can do
that now. What it's like to feelthe conflict still, because
we've been doing something for ayear, and we've habituated to
something, our brains have said,dangers is more than, you know,
(20:10):
four people in a room if you'renot six feet apart with the mask
on. So people talk about havebeen talking about this to this
idea that even though it's okay,and you know, the CDC says CDC
says it's acceptable, theconflict is still happening for
people, they they findthemselves feeling anxious, and
(20:31):
then realize, oh, oh, that's,that's why I'm anxious, because
this is not supposed to behappening, although it is, I was
talking to my friend, Charmaine,a couple days ago, and in my
backyard, and she was talkingabout that, like, she's going
out into the world into theseplaces that, you know, now her
family's vaccinated. And it'sstill she doesn't feel
(20:52):
comfortable, she knows thatrationally, she is, but she has
all this anxiety around, havingdone something particular in
isolation for so long that nowbeing with people feels a little
odd.
Raphael Freeman (21:06):
That to me makes I part of me wants to
blame the basal ganglia. Thebasal ganglia is this part of
the brain that is essentiallyit's responsible for like habit
building, and repetitive, like,you know, very various types of
memories, right, you know, somememories like your, your, your,
your ability to remember how totie a shoe. And then I think
(21:28):
that's called procedural memory.
And then you have your abilityto remember, like, where you
left your keys. Remember whatthat's called, I want to say
operational, but that's probablynot it. Either way, you know,
memory is one of these, theseare things but it seems to be
the basal ganglia, part of yourbrain is responsible for the
things that you do repetitivelyprocedural memory, tying your
(21:51):
shoe, so on and so forth. And,you know, as we were learning
new behaviors, and newmodalities of how to interact
with each other, which took timeand you can remember, in the
beginning, it was a lot ofresistance, you mean
Angie Backues (22:04):
resistance in the beginning of the pandemic?
Raphael Freeman (22:07):
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. There was a
lot of resistance around themasks and social, I mean, we saw
it right, but especially aroundthe social distance, distancing
aspects, lots of resistance,both in the in the in the red
states and blue states. Andeventually, we hit some point of
equilibrium after we'd beendoing it enough that the the
(22:31):
flip switch, this became the,you know, for all the people
were like, hashtag no newnormal. This was like the the
new normal that emerged, and anew set of behaviors and, and,
you know, relatedness, you know,between people, and lots of that
is just gets stored in the partof your brain where it's like,
I'm doing this set of activitiesover and over and over again,
(22:53):
one hour, the, you know, the,the guidelines have changed, and
people have a new some peopleare like, they can't wait to get
back to quote unquote, the waythings were. Although hashtag
rip the way things were.
Hashtag, rip. That's nevercoming back. Not the way we knew
(23:13):
it. But that's neither here northere. My point is, your brain
having made a new set of mentalrepresentations about how to
relate to one another and tostrangers. But that's, that's
all. It's gonna feel weird. Now.
(23:37):
I feel like I mean, you know,whether you're a germaphobe or
not, but people feel a littlebit creepier than they used to
feel right. Money sits next toyou. What, why are you so close?
Angie Backues (23:49):
Right? Well, I still find myself, you know,
even if I'm asked, and have beenthis whole year, if I'm outside,
like, if I'm passing someday Imove, you know, on the other
side of this, not cross thestreet, but I move on the other
side of the sidewalk, notbecause I find them dangerous.
It's just to you know, respectour space. At my 15 year old
(24:11):
was, I was telling her that theCDC guidelines have changed now
that if she's out with me, I'mvaccinated. She can't be because
she's 15. But she's out with me.
We take walks often, she doesn'thave to wear a mask. That kid is
not going to leave the mask. Andso this is the thing to She is
like it you know, I told her Isaid you can take it off and she
(24:31):
said no, I'm gonna keep it on
Raphael Freeman (24:34):
the mask feels comfortable. Now, it's
uncomfortable in the beginningnow feels like That's right.
Well, safety blanket
Angie Backues (24:39):
what she said and you know, 15 year olds, that's a
particular you know, breedright. 15 year olds do these,
you know, they're so selfconscious anyway, but she was
saying she told me yesterday,she said, I remember how
embarrassed I was to wear it.
Like when we first startedwearing them. She said I was so
embarrassed, and I just thoughtthis was such a weird thing. And
she said And now I've switchednow I'm embarrassed almost to
(25:01):
not have it on. Right. So she'sdefinitely in her teenage brain
has, you know, this makes sensenow, and it feels like the way
to be outside. And I think forher, it's going to be this very
major shift. I mean, we walkedaround, I didn't have a mask on,
and she did.
Raphael Freeman (25:21):
So you weren't even there in solidarity. You
were like,
Unknown (25:24):
Oh, no, no, no,
Raphael Freeman (25:24):
you got their own struggles.
Unknown (25:26):
That's right.
Angie Backues (25:27):
I mean, you know, I still wear mine. Enough, if
I'm gonna be in a crowd ofpeople. And I think that's
mostly, you know, I'mvaccinated, but I want other
people to feel safe, I don'tknow who's vaccinated out there.
So I, it's kind of a signal forme to, you know, allow people to
feel safe around me. You know,when, you know, we live on the
(25:48):
East Coast, I mean, here,particularly in our
neighborhood, and thisneighborhood, there, you know,
it's been very massed, there'snot really been a lot of issues
around around whether or not itshould be a part of, of the way
people live, it just is, youknow, most people in West
Philadelphia are walking aroundwith the mask even now. So, you
(26:10):
know, I think living here, it'sbeen more of this issue around
not wearing the mask thanwearing the mask.
Raphael Freeman (26:17):
It's so you know, like, you talked about the
geography of it. And, you know,there are a lot of cultural ties
that happen to geography and howpeople sort of experiences both
that sort of like the geographiccultural level, but also like,
the political stuff that thathappens to a lot of the people
who are in this sort of culturalmilieu or geographic value, who
(26:41):
are like, you know, antivaxxers, or anti masters tend to
do so less for what we mightthink of as the traditional
political split and more forreasons that have to do with how
can I put it sorta conspiracytheory type stuff, or conspiracy
(27:05):
fears. And, you know, when it'sso I'm an apologist, for for
most unpopular position, not notbecause I want to be contrarian,
but I have this. For me, one ofthe things that is really
crucial to just for myself tounderstand is that even people
(27:25):
who I think are the mostirrational, probably have some
rationale. And they're notnearly as rational as we think
they are. Although I mean, don'tget me wrong, sometimes people
are. But a lot of times what'shappening is the, the
information that they're relyingon, is sometimes fundamentally
(27:46):
different than the informationthat somebody else is relying
on. And then they have topresent like, just what gets it
just the inputs are sodifferent. And the inputs are
really different now that, youknow, I'm a generation X er, and
I'm a little bit too young forthe Walter Cronkite of the
world. I know the name and Isort of know his status in his
position, the Dan rather's andthe what, like people, my mom
(28:08):
would watch, right? Who werecrucial in building a set of
just like a basis of informationthat America and across the
political spectrum could relyon. that's largely gone, right.
And Facebook doesn't help at allright? Facebook doesn't help at
(28:29):
all. So So, you know, as we'rein our our echo chambers, and
it's one thing just in terms of,you know, having the same
opinions, you know, regurgitatedand federalist, that's one thing
that we're all aware of, but butI would say just the sheer
points of information that we'reusing, and what gets through,
(28:52):
and then how they getsprocessed, that's also very,
very different for for people,you know, geographically and
politically. And then you haveto make sense of that
information, in light of all theinformation that has come before
it that you've taken. And giventhat I tend to have sympathy is
(29:13):
not the right word. But I tendto be able to see the
perspective of people who, whorely just on like a different
data set. I don't think it's notreally the right word, but they
rely on a different informationset in order to build a belief,
right. So what I'm going totangent and I'm going to come
back, you know, for the nonscientists that are out there,
which is like most people, youknow, I think I know one data
(29:35):
scientist, I know chemist tobiologists, right? So I know for
I think for for people who arelike they like their science oh
five, right. So this is anotherdata scientists out there as
well. No offense to my politicalscientist friends, because I
(29:55):
have a political scientistsfriend as well. Lots of them,
but that's not I want to talkabout I feel like I'm in the
backpedaling, but here's wherehere's where I'm going with
this. It's when I look at when Ilook at the something like
climate science, or or evenCoronavirus science. I know that
(30:18):
I don't have the qualificationsor even the mental
representations to cut to lookat those conclusions to look at
those studies. I don't mean likereports on studies, I mean, to
look at the actual studies, andthen come to my own conclusions.
I'm simply not I don't haveenough information. I don't have
enough scaffolding, you know,like it. I don't have an
(30:39):
education people that do right.
And so in that regard, it comesdown to trust, I decided to
trust a set of people. Andrealistically, these are people
that are don't even know. Butthe question at the end of the
day is really about who do wedecide to trust? And how do we
trust? And I, you know, I guessfor me, it doesn't, it's not
(31:01):
necessarily a straightforwardanswer, of whom to trust.
Angie Backues (31:10):
So what do you mean, when you say that? Well,
Raphael Freeman (31:14):
I guess one of the first people that I learned
to trust was like, my mother,right? Yeah, I was young, she
knew way more about the worldthan I did. She was able to
answer all my questions. Andshe's like, really good at that.
And whatever. That's like, lotsof people, lots of people trust
the parents. The parents knowthat, even if their parents are
not experts, right. But as westart to grow up, and as we
(31:36):
think, you know, as the, by thetime we become adults, lots of
times our information that wehave, will outstrip and you
know, especially given you know,the improvements in education
will outstrip the informationthat is available to our
parents. But that doesn't meanthat we trust there. Lots of
(31:57):
times, it doesn't mean that wetrust their opinions list. And
on lots of matters, we probablyshould like, you know what I
mean? Like you, my mom wouldn'tknow. And so this core question
as to how do we know who tolisten to? How do we know whom
to trust? often that doesn't getits own evaluation, we don't
(32:17):
really build a model around howdo we know whom to trust, but
the place that I land? So if Iwere to look at like I said, I
have a lot of sympathy for bothsympathy and sort of apologetics
for the people who are sort ofanti vaccine not not because I
(32:40):
agree with their position. Butone, I know that they're they're
building their corpus of, ofinformation in a different way.
But also the the lack of trustis I mean, I think it's
justifiable is especially forblacks, right. So if, if the
Tuskegee experiment hadn'thappened, do you know the
Tuskegee experiment? Yes,
Unknown (33:01):
you could you want to touch on it a bit. Yeah. So for
Raphael Freeman (33:04):
people, you know, who don't know, I mean, I
think this was in making, I wantto say to Macon County, Georgia,
but even if it wasn't, here's awell, it couldn't have been like
Tuskegee, Reza, Tuskegee,Alabama. There's some geography
for you. in Tuskegee, there wasa syphilis. They wanted to see
what are the long term effectsof syphilis on a given
(33:24):
population. And so instead oftreating people even when the
the first, one of the earliertreatments for syphilis had to,
you know, it was based onMercury, and had some some
negative effects, becauseMercury is a heavy metal, but it
was a treatment and the effectsof the mercury was less than the
(33:45):
effects of long term syphilis,which always lead to death.
There was a group in Tuskegeethat wanted to study the long
term effects of syphilis on thisblack population. And instead of
treating them either with thefirst treatment, which was based
on Mercury, or the secondtreatment, which was way safer,
(34:08):
they did this longitudinal studythat allowed people to run the
they allow the disease to runthe course of the people's lives
until they died, so they couldstudy the effects. And in
compensation, I mean, this isnot even compensation because
people never agreed they justwere never offered proper
medical care. But what they didget for, for showing up and
(34:32):
allowing their and reporting,you know, their symptoms. They
got a lunch and they got a pinebox burial. That was that was
what they got in return fortheir involuntary partition
participation. And of course,there are things like operation
(34:54):
bootstrap that happened inPuerto Rico and you know, where
people were women. Were startingrealized against their their
will. There was anothersterilization campaign here on
the mainland United States. Soit's not like the medical
industry, and the United Statesgovernment doesn't have enough
(35:16):
of a record of betrayal andabuse of people who are non
white. It's super wellestablished. The it's, it's it's
a rampant problem, right. Andthere's still rapid problems
that happen right now, as wespeak, in terms of how medicine
treats people who aren't white,right? And so the distrust makes
(35:41):
total sense. But I get thatpart. And you can call the
people who, who take that thatoutlook, you can call them
conspiracy theorists, if youlike. But what we have is an
actual, like people conspire,right, it's a word for reason.
And we have these sort ofhistorical conspiracies that are
(36:01):
real and that people can pointto and so, you know, what do you
do with that? The thing that's alittle bit different about where
we are now, one has to do withhow broad the scope of where we
are now, how much transparencythere is, until it's not some
little, it's not a little townin Alabama. It's global, it's
(36:22):
worldwide. And we can see thatthe things that are happening in
Switzerland and things that arehappening in France, or, you
know, Thailand, in India, forGod's sakes, struggling, that
they mirror the things that havehappened or are happening here.
And that that should providesome transparency, that, you
(36:44):
know, people who are, are proneto distrust to say, well, it's
it's not about us, this is thisis happening everywhere, it
looks the same everywhere,especially if you look at news.
And if you don't look at newsoutside the United States,
please just, you know, go to BBCcalm or, you know, if you speak
in other languages, just readthe news, I'll tell the United
States, but you'll see that it'smatching, right, it's matching
(37:04):
everywhere. So in this case, itfor me comes back to this this
question about whom to trust,and how you build that trust.
And I think intuitively, we allknow that, if, if I were to call
my brother, let's say, who's nota carpenter, right, just fill in
the blank, if you're gonna callsomeone who's not a carpenter,
(37:24):
like, hey, I want to build aframe for my house. And that
person's like, Oh, I can do it.
You'd be like, You're, you'renot a carpenter. I'm not gonna
let you do it. Um, if Lisa delladown the road, this is just a
name that I picked up. But, youknow, if she decided that she
could treat my wound, and she'snot a medical professional, I
(37:47):
mean, we all have a sense thatI'm not gonna let you do
whatever hooli you're going todo to my wound to like a no, I'm
not gonna do that. Right, wethat part is clear.
Until, whom to trust, I think atthe most fundamental level, we
sort of get it except for whenit comes to this part. And I
(38:08):
understand the risks that peopleare weighing, when what's going
to happen in the long run. And Igotta say that as much as you
trust, a carpenter for yourcarpentry, and as much as you,
you know, whatever, you get themetaphor, it's because of the
amount of transparency becauseit's happening everywhere.
Because German doctors, right,like, who don't have any
(38:30):
relationship with United Statesmedical distrust whatsoever,
because German scientists andGerman doctors are coming to the
same conclusions. I think itmakes sense to, to trust the
world. On this, you know, theworld scientists in this
particular regard, even if thescientists in your own country
(38:53):
have betrayed you, or betrayedyour community or betrayed your
trust. It's simply not thatrelationship everywhere, and
South Korea, and China and likeeverybody is on the same page
with this. And that, for me isenough to say, hey, even if I
can interpret the data myself,even if I don't know anything
about, you know, Spike proteinsor anything else, it seems like
(39:16):
the entirety of the world ismoving in this direction. And
that for me, is tax trustworthy.
You're saying
Angie Backues (39:24):
You're pretty. So your thought is that this
vaccination plan is not aworldwide conspiracy?
Raphael Freeman (39:32):
I really don't think I really don't think that
I really don't think there doesand but like, Listen, I totally
get trust. And it all comes downto trust, whom we trust, and how
we're going to build that trust.
But in this particular case, Igotta side with I got to start
with the medical institutions inforeign countries that have
nothing to do with us and arecoming to their own conclusions.
(39:53):
Yeah,
Angie Backues (39:55):
I think you know, what you're saying it needs to
be you know, It's important thatwe understand that there's real,
there have been real issues andnon white communities. And we
can't ignore that the peoplehave, you know, they have this
history that tells them, thiscould get really tricky. I think
(40:16):
also, you were talking aboutwhat we do when we grow up with
a story that we have always kindof taken at the face, at face
value, it becomes a part of ourinternal working around how we
see the world. And again, youknow, giving credence to the
truth of all of what hashappened in the medical
(40:38):
community. But there's also, youknow, conspiracies that perhaps
we haven't quite unpacked, likeit becomes the story that we've
lived with for so long. I'llgive you an example. I was
talking to my mom this morning,actually, she was talking about
how she grew up thinking thatcats were cats, they animal cat,
(41:00):
you know, a domesticated cat.
What exactly was it, um, theyweren't likeable, and you
shouldn't have them, and youcertainly shouldn't have them in
the house. That was for hergrowing up. That was what she
was taught. Her dad didn't likethem. And she realized that for
years and years, she had hadthis adopted belief system that
cats were terrible creatures.
(41:24):
And, honestly, she was talkingabout she had just unpacked this
not too awful long ago. So ittook my mom some time, but she
was kind of chuckling about it.
But she said, I started thinkingcats aren't really, you know,
they're not bad. They're just mydad had told me for years that
they were. And so she grew upwith this negative bias towards
cats, until she startedunpacking that story and realize
(41:45):
that her her dislike for theanimal was because she had
internalized this and had neverrevisited it. Right. And I
think, you know, that, too, issomething we can consider if we
are leaning in a particulardirection, in a negative way, or
happy really examined the storythat we have held? And what is
(42:09):
it like to unpack it? You know,maybe you just visit that,
again,
Raphael Freeman (42:15):
I think that's really I think that's really
important for for, for anycommunity, black, white or
otherwise, here in the Statesnot to make that that binary
sort of, you know, analysis howthe United States works. But I
think revisiting those oldstories and the beliefs that we
inherit as adult is, and when wetalk about this enough, but
(42:38):
that's super critical for movingin, into living away. That is,
what true is to who you could beright, those voices, there's a
thing that I think is reallyhard, which is listening to your
own voice. You know, I thinkthere's a biblical way of
(42:59):
phrasing it that sort of seepedinto New Age. I think it's
biblical, but people call itthe, the still small voice
within the small still voicewithin. But But there, there is
an internal voice that we havethat guides us enough, and tells
us, I mean, I think gives usreally strong clues as to the
(43:23):
direction that we might move innot planning any kind of
mystical or magical way. Butjust in terms of how our
subconscious mind is processingloads of data from the
environment, from ourpreferences from our bodies, in
ways that consciously we're notaware of. There's a voice that
(43:44):
is in touch with other parts ofour, our process, our brain
processing, that that doesn'tnecessarily bubble up to, to,
you know, our consciousness. Soso in that regard, I think that
voice has some things to tellus, doesn't mean that it's
always right. But morefrequently, I find that there
(44:05):
are lots of people and sometimesyou can hear it in the way that
they phrase their the thingsthat that they say, there are
lots of people who the dominantvoice for them might be their
dad's voice might be their mom'svoice or sometimes a teacher or
a bully or whatever. And it'scrazy to watch someone
(44:26):
disentangle that that stillsmall voice within from all the
external voices. Maybe it's thepastor or minister or with a
Catholic color, like a priest orsomeone else who is close to
watch someone disentangle andthen hear their voice for the
first time right you know, I'min my practice, I've seen it
(44:46):
happen at least twice and bothtimes like oh, tears, right,
they got to hear their their ownvoice for the first time. But,
but because we do have aplethora of voices that are
constantly informing Those. Andthose voices end up in a loop,
they end up forming part of ournarrative that part of our, our
(45:08):
narrative loop. And I think thatis hard to break away from. But
obviously, they inform how wemake decisions, our values
around things like the medicalsystem, so on and so forth. And
if we don't examine that thing,then I think even moving into a
more authentic I hate to use theword but into a more authentic
(45:28):
and more us and less otherinformed idea of how we want to
show up in the world, thatbecomes much harder if we don't
examine, you know, the core setof inherited values, if you
will.
Angie Backues (45:40):
Yeah. And I think it's, it's hard to do unless
you're very intentionally, youknow, focused on it, unless
you're very conscious of it.
Like you were saying, you know,what your experience with people
when you get to that place whereyou can say, Wait, whose voice
was that and then becomesemotional. I remember the first
time I was in therapy years ago,and I was saying something, and
(46:01):
she said, whose voice? Is that?
Who who's saying that? You know,because it was just a very, you
know, it was a reaction whereit's a phrase I had said, 1000
times about myself? What was thebrief? Who do you think you are?
And, you know, she said, what,what voice is that? You know, is
(46:24):
that you saying that toyourself? And, and I got to the
place where I was like, Oh,yeah, no, I know, whose voice
This is so, and I hadn't everquestioned it. It was always,
you know, who do you think youare? And that was something I
would say to myself, right. Soif, you know, I think that you
have to be aware that you areoperating, like you said, you
(46:45):
know, we were born and we thefirst person we trust or, you
know, our parents are mom anddad, and then we build, you
know, our stories based on whatwe think about what they've told
us. And we have to start toparse that through. So you know,
as we continue to emerge, I callit complicated emergence. It's
(47:06):
okay, you know, whatever isgoing on, if you're feeling a
little, you know, it's getting alittle bit tricky, and you're
not quite figuring you haven'tquite figured out how to do
this. With a vaccination. You'restill trying to understand how
you feel about it. It's okay.
We're going to all figure thisout. Eventually, we figured out
how to be quarantined, we'llfigure out how to not be
(47:27):
quarantined. Just be patientwith yourself. Yeah, I
Raphael Freeman (47:32):
think that's a good word, to be patient with
yourself. Be compassionate withyourself. And wherever you end
up is going to be based on theinformation that is available to
you the belief systems and thetrust that you have in place.
And I think everybody's gonna doyou know what's best for them,
given the information that theyhave, and you know how they see
the world and that's fine. Wedon't need to have judgment
(47:56):
around that. Whateverequilibrium that we hit in the
future that's coming, we'll bethe one that we hit. Is genies
not going back in the bottle?
And we'll figure out how to, youknow, how to live our new lives?
We
Angie Backues (48:12):
definitely will.
It's gonna be okay. We'll getthere.
Raphael Freeman (48:16):
Right. Listen, if you've ended up, I mean,
thanks for making it this farwith this. And if you end up in
a position that's so drasticallydifferent and like, completely
understand how wrongheaded weare, let us know reach out on
Instagram, which is alwaysreliable and Facebook, which is
a little less reliable, and youknow, that's on us, but
(48:37):
Instagram is super reliable, butyou know, shoot us a message and
let us know your thoughts and welove pushback. I mean, we love
sorta you know, just justrehashing the, and being open
and trying to update ideas andyou know, open to new
understanding. So that'd beamazing. If you rate us,
hopefully highly on yourfavorite podcast platform, that
(49:00):
would be amazing. Tell yourfriends. Let's get like some
family and loved some hugs goingon and just all fall in. We
appreciate you listening man.
Thanks for hanging out.
Unknown (49:10):
Yeah. See ya.
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