June 16, 2022 • 32 mins
Being in an airport is always a stressful time- we've all had moments traveling when we had to hurry through security when you notice your running late to your flight. Traveling for transgender individuals however, comes with an additional layer of anxiety that many cisgender individuals take for granted.
In the second part of this two-part series, Isaac and Cyn are joined by Simply Good Form's own Emma Stanley (She/Her) who is a frequent flyer and an expert at 'boymoding' to ensure she can get through security without any hassle. Emma shares with her experiences with border security officers, traveling to foreign countries and provides advice to fellow trans travellers who may be second guessing their upcoming trip.
We are also joined by Veronica Landry of Boot Prints Hiking Tours in Nova Scotia. As a local tourism and experience provider it was important for Veronica to ensure she was taking the steps to be inclusive and welcoming of LGBTQ+ travellers and hikers. Veronica has an LGBTQ+ special hiking multi-day tour in Cape Breton this summer, at the end of Halifax PRIDE festival. More details on her website.
Hey, Cis! is a beyond binary conversation in being a better human.
We are about current affairs and gender-based issues affecting trans and non-binary youth, students and adults within our Maritime community.
We take on difficult topics; (and this week it is a difficult topic), breaking us out of the binary, smashing stigma and fostering greater connection between our cisgender community and trans, gender creative and non-binary community.
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Credits
Guest: Emma Stanley: emmastanley@simplygoodform.com
Hey, Cis! is hosted by Cyn Sweeney (She/Her) and Isaac Cook (He/They).
Cyn is a cis, straight beyond binary educator and author focusing on 'beyond binary' inclusion and breaking heteronormative and cisnormative practices. As a storyteller and community writer Cynthia is inspired by peoples stories - and listening fully. In her late 20s she felt insulted to be described as a 'bull in china shop,' when it came to pushing barriers and cutting through red tape. More than two decades on, she realizes it's served as one of her best assets in role-modelling for her 3 children and family.
Born and raised in Nova Scotia, Isaac Cook is a transgender, non-binary, queer person with a passion for making change. With a degree in Linguistics and Criminology, Isaac has more than six years of communications, marketing and web development experience with a particular passion forSTEM- focused and non-profit organizations. Outside of his work with Cyn at Simply Good Form Inc., Isaac enjoys cooking, travelling, astrology and hanging out with his dogs Aspen and Timber.
Produced and edited in-house.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/simply-good-form/
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/SimplyGoodForm
MUSIC: Hey, Cis! thanks musical artist Craymo for our intro/extro song: Be Myself
Written by: Craig Stephen Raymo/Brandon Jarrett/Joshua Daniel Hershfield (c) (p) 2015 Craymo Music, BMI/Moho Music, ASCAP
Website: http://www.Craymo.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Isaac Cook (He/They):
(Transcribed by Sonix.ai - Remove this message by upgrading your Sonix account) Hey, Cis! (00:03):
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From coast-to-coast-to-coast, we're bridgingthe gap between the cisgender and transgender
community, creating meaningful dialogue andspace to learn and grow.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Join us as we connect with our community, break down tough conversations, and get (00:11):
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comfortable being better humans.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): At this point, I'm already really panicking because. (00:21):
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Um. I'm not just thinking, oh God, I'm goingto have trouble getting into the border.
I'm thinking, this person thinks that I'mcommitting a federal offense of of using
someone else's passport.
(00:42):
This is terrifying.
I'm like, I'm functionally being accused ofa major crime right now.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): So today on Hey, Cis! (00:48):
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Isaac and I are super excited to have one ofour very own joining us, Emma Stanley, who
is.
Speaker4: Hello! (00:57):
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Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): We are very excited to have you here, Emma. (00:58):
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Emma's been working with Simply Good Formsince fall of 2021, and now she is taking her
show on the road and going to be workingwith us from another part of the globe.
And we are here to talk about travel.
Uh, traveling.
What? You know, what it's like if you are amember of the trans community, the non-binary
(01:21):
community, what barriers exist?
What do you have to think about that theaverage cis traveler just never has to think
about. And with your vast experience in thepast and this upcoming trip, we're excited to
hear some of your thoughts on that, Emma.
So welcome.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): I am super pleased, uh, to be here and bring my vast experience to bear on this (01:38):
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complicated topic.
Um, hi, I'm Emma Stanley.
I work with SGF and I use she her pronouns.
Um. I have been traveling, uh, prettyconsistently around the world since 2009.
(02:00):
Um, and in the past 4 or 5 years, I've beensort of traveling while trans and traveling
while fair. Uh, and, yeah, I'm that's whatI'm here to talk about.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): I think going back a little bit before we talk about your, uh, your trip coming up to, (02:15):
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uh, to Thailand, um, you have kind of a bitof a checkered background of, uh, potential,
uh, arrests at, uh, border crossings orchallenging situations, which maybe isn't
uncommon, for some trans people.
And maybe it's something people get reallynervous about.
(02:35):
Do you want to talk a little bit about, uh,maybe some of your experiences?
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Yeah, we can, um. (02:40):
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Yeah, traveling. Well, queer can be achallenge.
And traveling while your body and identitydon't match your paperwork is terrifying at
times. Um.
Now, it does have to be said that I have,uh, just to give some context, my background
(03:02):
is pretty privileged in, like, every otherarea.
Um, I am Caucasian.
I'm educated.
Uh, at the time, I was married, um, so I hadadvantages that an enormous number of people
don't have. And so I was, in the end, ableto sort of extricate myself from these
situations. But it was never me getting meout of these problems.
(03:27):
It was people that I knew.
And I think that was the scariest part forme.
Um, it was only by the grace of who I knewthat this didn't become a bigger problem.
Um, so I have been, uh, presenting femininefor four years now.
I'm pretty widely, um, but, um, because ofsome other things which I will get into
(03:55):
later, I promise.
Um, I have been unable to change mypaperwork until a few months ago, and so I
was traveling again with a with a body andan identity that didn't match my official
identification. So when I go to airports, Ihave a really specific set of clothes and
mannerisms that I project.
(04:16):
Uh, I basically dress really androgynouslybig hoodies, big jeans, um, and uh, when I
still owned a binder, I would wear it when,uh, when I started needing one, uh, to make
sure that I looked at least similar to myidentification.
And I thought that that would be enough.
(04:40):
And it was funny. I had my hair tucked upinto a hat.
I just tried to masculinize a bit.
Uh, we we usually just call it boy molding.
Um. And I was really surprised when itdidn't work.
So I was coming into Thailand.
Um. Because I had just changed a visa.
(05:01):
So the problem with that is that I was nottraveling for pleasure.
I was.
Out of the country to, uh, I had to leavethe country, go to an embassy, change my
paperwork, and re-enter the country.
And because I was actually working whilethis was happening, it all needed to happen
(05:22):
on a weekend. So it needed to happen in twodays.
Uh, so in the.
Uh, 48 hours of the weekend.
I had been traveling or waiting in consulatelines for 40 of them at this point.
I was coming back into the country.
I'd gotten all of my paperwork signed, and Iwas, uh, very tired.
(05:46):
Uh, but but relaxed.
Uh, so I went up to the counter.
Give the guy my ticket, my passport.
He's checking my visa and he turns to thefirst page, sees the picture, sees the
information there, and just looks me in theface and says, this isn't you.
And what do you do right now?
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Be pretty scary. (06:06):
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Emma Stanley (She/Her): Yeah. Um, you can't argue with border guards. (06:07):
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You you. Yeah.
It is is a really terrible thing to say atthis point.
Um, and I am really lucky that he spoke asmuch English as he did, because at the time,
I spoke no Thai.
Um. And.
(06:28):
So at least, at very least, we could evenhave this conversation.
Uh, so I sort of looked at him and, and notreally thinking about it, said, yeah, it is.
So, um, for those of you who don't know,never disagree with border guards.
Um, they they are not fans of it.
Now, he was not a bad person.
He was super calm about the whole thing, buthe was pretty insistent that this was not me.
(06:54):
And. At this point, I'm already reallypanicking because.
Um. I'm not just thinking, oh God, I'm goingto have trouble getting into the border.
I'm thinking, this person thinks that I'mcommitting a federal offense of of using
(07:15):
someone else's passport.
This is terrifying.
I'm like, I'm functionally being accused ofa major crime right now in a foreign country.
Uh, and.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): You're exhausted 40 hours in and. (07:26):
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Emma Stanley (She/Her): And and I'm exhausted. (07:28):
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So this is the nerves are way, way up.
Eventually, I kind of calmed down andrealized that, um, the other lucky thing is
that I'm pretty paranoid, um, alongside myhoodie and my hat and, uh, my my
(07:52):
mannerisms. I also have five separate piecesof of identification.
I took out, uh, two driver's licenses from,uh, the countries I'd been in previously.
A credit card, um, all in my old name.
And, uh, he didn't believe any of them.
(08:14):
It wasn't actually, until I called my thenwife over, uh, to vouch for me, uh, which was
tricky because she had already gone through.
And they don't let you go back through thoselines.
So she had to sort of shout over the, uh,um, over the turnstiles that, yeah, I know
them. It's fine.
And, uh, at that point, uh, I was allowed togo in.
(08:40):
And. Yeah.
It's just, uh, amazing to me that we stillhave a system where there was no way for me
to prove who I was.
We insist, or people seem to be insisting onthese documents that will prove who we are.
And they're supposed to look like this.
(09:02):
I've had friends from work.
Coworkers? Uh, say that.
We shouldn't allow, uh, changing gender on,uh, on official documents because, you know,
you could use it to fake people out.
And yet this document that is supposed to bevery much me doesn't have my fingerprint
anywhere in it.
It has no.
(09:22):
Uh, objective information with which I canprove this is me anywhere in it.
And it was a real eye opener that we trustthese documents and these systems, uh, so
much that when they fail, we have norecourse.
This was purely.
Is this guy going to trust me or am I goingto go to immigration jail?
(09:45):
Um, so yeah, that was that was reallyterrifying and and genuinely an eye opener.
Uh.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah. I was just going to jump in, uh, really quick. (09:51):
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Uh, um, so just to just to confirm as well.
So where is your paperwork at the time?
Did it have was it the sex defined as male,or was it kind of like he looked at the photo
and was like, this doesn't look like, you.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Know, my, um, my passport at the time had my old name. (10:13):
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Uh, gotcha. And and my old identity, whichwas, which was male.
Um, and apparently I pass way better than Ithought I did to the point where I can't even
fake it anymore.
Um, yeah.
And it just. Uh, kind of quietly insistedthis.
(10:36):
This is not you.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): So if you didn't have all of that ID like, what do you think? (10:38):
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I mean, I like what do you think would havehappened?
Or you just probably don't even want tothink about what would have happened.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Oh, I've thought about it. (10:48):
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I was I mean, I was thinking about it at thetime because, um, I suffer from ADHD, and
that means, uh, my plans to be prepared, uh,don't often actually happen.
So I knew that I had intended to put all ofthis identification in my bag.
And it turned out this time I had.
(11:08):
And that was really lucky.
But while I was digging for it, I'mthinking, okay, if this if I have in fact
forgotten to put this in, what am I going todo?
And my next idea was to call my boss,because then I can attach myself to a company
and say they can call and sort of confirm myidentity.
Um, but that can't happen in a line up.
(11:31):
So that would have meant, uh, finding aspace in the airport where I can, uh, make a
request to call my boss.
Um, and even that depends on a whetherthey're going to let me do that.
And B, uh, the I'm just, again, very lucky.
I was working for a fairly large companythat they probably would have recognized the
(11:55):
name of. And my boss has he knows me.
He's been working there for 20 years.
They will they will trust his word on thisthing.
Um, and again, it's where the rest of myprivilege is really protected me from this
one really vulnerable moment.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): And remind, I say, just repeat again. (12:11):
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So what border were you crossing?
You were going from, from Thailand or you'regoing into Thailand from.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): I was returning to Thailand, from Laos. (12:19):
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Um, they when you change visa paperwork, youalmost always need to leave the country to do
that so that you're processed with thatpaperwork when you come in.
And of course, Covid has changed most ofthose rules, but at the time, this was
certainly the case.
Speaker5: Yeah, right. (12:38):
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Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): And I wonder because like, well, it's interesting because, uh, Forbes uh, they (12:39):
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printed in uh, 2021, uh, some of the toplike no go zones for LGBTQ plus people.
And now can Canada actually rated the safeout of the top five places, um, for
traveling. But, um, on this no go zone listwas, you know, Nigeria came in at number one
(13:03):
and Saudi Arabia, but then you have Malaysiaand Malawi are up there as being really
unsafe. Um, yeah.
Travel, which is in sort of that neck of thewoods where you're traveling.
But for for trans people in Thailand, um,and that is, is quite safe, isn't it, if you
once you get there.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Yes, absolutely. (13:19):
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It's, it's been amazing.
And in fact, um, the company that I was withwas really good about it.
Uh, there was never any, uh, weirdnessthere.
And, uh, in a sort of putting their moneywhere their mouth is, they made sure that
when I did need to do visa changes, I wasnot sent to Malaysia to do them.
(13:41):
Um. And there are a few countries in thearea where if you live there, it's safe.
But the rules on the books are notnecessarily safe.
Um. So Myanmar was not a top choice.
It was the story that I heard on the groundwas, it's fine to be there, but don't cross
(14:02):
the border. And I have no idea how seriouslyto take those.
It really depends on the border guards andwhat mood they're in on any particular day.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah, I think I think that's a very, very good point because even, um, you know, and (14:09):
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not a lot of folks, uh, realize this too.
So Canada has what's the formal terms of it?
I think it's like travel advisories, Canadatravel advice and advisories.
And typically in that document, in that hugepage of all the many countries in the world,
(14:33):
they'll list kind of what they advise you door not do.
And in there there is a section for to LGBTQplus people and you know, they'll rank it
will not necessarily rank it, but they'llmention even to like hand-holding or like
public displays of affection or, you know,sleeping in the same bed as someone with the
the same sex. But it's it's reallyinteresting to look at how governments,
(14:56):
especially in particular Canada, breaks downthat perspective of like, foreign countries.
Um, so if anyone ever wants it's definitelynot light reading by any means, because
they're massive documents to talk aboutanything from potential illnesses, infections
such like that in other countries.
But it's definitely a good reference point,uh, and a baseline for people to get if they
are traveling.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Well. And it's important to know because so like, for instance, uh, the African country, (15:15):
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as I mentioned, um, Malawi, I think, uh,they had written that same sex, uh, acts
could result in 14 years in prison for, formen and five years for women.
And, you know, places like that would besurprising.
So for myself, as a parent of a trans child,um, you hear, you know, before Covid,
(15:38):
families taking off and going to Jamaica, Ihad a friend that had a destination wedding
in Jamaica, um, which we weren't at anyway,but, uh, it's not safe for trans people.
Uh, Jamaica is on that list, and there's alot of Caribbean places as well.
So if you think if you go there, um, so evenif you were, as you mentioned, boycotting,
which I'd never heard before, or you couldpass, um, if you get injured or if you need
(16:04):
hospital or you need support, um, and thatcould become very difficult, uh, for you
even, I guess if you're a family travelingdown to the States, you know, like just
crossing the border here from Canada to thestates, you know, if you have a trans child,
don't get sick down there or break your legin certain states like Texas and several
others. But, um, there's a lot ofconsiderations, isn't there?
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Yeah, it definitely is a lens through which you you experience the world. (16:28):
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You you have to make every choice with thisone more qualifier, um, of is it going to be
safe? And.
When you get to a country, the culture ofthe country inside it and the laws that are
(16:49):
on the books are always going to bedifferent.
Um, certainly the Middle East is is prettyfamous for being not accepting.
But when you actually live there and I have,uh.
It's. They don't care nearly as much as youthink they do.
The trick is that they don't want to hearabout it or interact with it, but they don't
(17:10):
ask either. They it's just kind of a closedtopic.
It's actually pretty safe unless somebodyfinds out.
And then rather than deal with, as you say,some.
Uh, consequences. That can be extremelyharsh.
They'll usually. The company that I workfor.
Someone found out one of the teachers wasgay, and he was quietly flown out of the
(17:34):
country that night.
They said a student, uh, started a rumor.
Doesn't matter if it's true.
Pack your bags.
Wow. Uh, and his his life just came to ahalt.
He had plans.
He had a job, he had an apartment, and itall just kind of went away.
And this was the, like, much more low key,merciful version of this thing.
(17:56):
This was like, we're going to get you out ofthe country so that nothing bad happens to
you. Um, so yeah, it can be really quitescary.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah, yeah. (18:05):
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And I just want to jump back a little bitto, um, to to your experience at the, at the
border because I know, um, quite often when,when there's any issue, border guards like to
have their immediate reaction be a bodysearch.
And that's typically when they.
Yeah, figure out it's a put in very PGterms, um, what's happening.
(18:30):
And um, I remember one time I was going intoGuatemala and everyone was getting body
search and it had no distinction.
Mhm. Uh, if you had potentially something orif you were pulled aside and I remember
because they had two lines and then one wasa, you know, a masculine presenting guard,
the other one was a feminine presentingguard.
And they, you know, ushered, you know, womento feminine and then masculine to the man.
(18:52):
And I remember staying there and I was like,hmm.
I go, where do I go?
Um, and I kind of I eventually.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Was out the least. (19:05):
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Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah, yeah. And eventually, like, you know, my heart was telling me to go towards the (19:06):
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feminine guard, but the male guard just, youknow, grabbed me and was like, pop up.
And then like, as soon as he got to, like,here, he was like, oh.
And I was like, it's fine.
Like, let's not make a big deal out of it.
Like, I'm not gonna like, scream.
We're good. I don't have anything on me.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Um, I will become. (19:25):
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Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah, exactly. We'll just act like nothing happened. (19:26):
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But he he felt bad.
Yeah, yeah, he felt he felt genuinely bad.
Um, but it was, it was just kind of like afunny experience because, like, even
non-trans people have that.
I can't tell you the amount of times of,like, butch presenting people that I know who
have been like, ushered towards like a maleor masculine presenting guard.
(19:47):
And they're like, I'm not comfortable withyou touching my body.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): So any anyone who's not presenting. (19:51):
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In, in a really heteronormative way is goingto cause a certain amount of confusion at
those stations.
Um.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): If you're traveling with people that don't know you're trans, like, what if you're (20:02):
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traveling with friends and they don't knowthat you're trans and you're in that
situation like, you know, that's another,you know.
Speaker4: Surprise. (20:12):
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Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): But this is interesting because Emma and I, we had a conversation, Isaac, kind of behind (20:13):
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the scenes like a couple of weeks ago, whichmade us like made me think deeper about wow,
travel and that. But what about so you'renot, like, in a body search, but you go
through the that, you know, like thatscanner, that body scanner that goes up.
Isaac Cook (He/They): And down like the turnstile, like. (20:29):
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Speaker4: Yeah, what if. (20:31):
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Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): You're wearing a packer, like, say you're a teen or you're wearing a pack or an STP, (20:32):
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like, would that like, would that be aconcern that a parent or, or just a person
that is wearing something like that, wouldthat would that be kind of something that you
might want to think about before you travelor.
Isaac Cook (He/They): I don't I don't want to jump in here, but I don't I don't know what all it detects. (20:49):
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So like for instance, like I have a heartmonitor and they've never asked me ever about
it. And I'm like, it could be okay if CanadaBorder Security is listening right now.
It is not a bomb, but it could be a bomb,you know, like it could be a bomb.
(21:10):
Um, I'm not flying with any bombs, Ipromise.
Like, you know, um, but, you know, like.
And I've never had anyone pull me, pull measide for it or, like, inquire about it so I
don't like I think with those ones inparticular, I mean, within Canada at least, I
think it only detects like certain types ofmetals and substances.
So if it's like a liquid or like a metal,but don't quote me on that.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): It's an interesting thing. (21:35):
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I know I've read an article, um, that it waspicking up everything.
Um, and this was pretty early on.
In the days of them, this would have beenlike in the, um, in the mid-aughts.
So somewhere between 2001 and 2010.
Um, so it would have been when I firststarted traveling because.
(21:58):
Uh. We were always we were.
We were curious about them because they werestill sort of coming out and.
Yeah, I have gotten caught by that.
When you go through them, there is a agender button or a sexy button that they can
press that will ignore certaincharacteristics, like underwires.
(22:21):
Um, if they press the lady button, and ifyou are wearing the wrong underclothes or
having the wrong bits.
Uh, some of them will go off.
I remember going through Frankfurt, Germany.
Um, this would have been five years ago.
Easily. And when I went through, it pinged.
(22:42):
Um. And at that point I was presentingfemale all the time, but I hadn't had surgery
yet. And I said, okay, just try the otherbutton, I'll go through again.
And it went through and I was fine.
So it, uh, it was fine.
And the border guards, you know, theyapologized.
They were being really cool about it, but,uh, but yeah, it they did need to press the
(23:03):
other button for it not to, to go off.
So I'm not sure what they did.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah. That's so weird that that was like a cyst. (23:08):
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And do you know approximately like, whatyear that was.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): When we lived in Oman. (23:14):
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So yeah. Past 5 to 6 years tops.
So post 2015 would be the best I could do.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): I guess it depends on the airport and the size and all that our little Halifax airport (23:23):
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might not, uh, might, might not have thatcapability.
Maybe it does, you know.
Yeah. Uh.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Well, I just find it such a weird. (23:34):
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A weirdly specific function to have, becausealso, like.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): I've invented a machine that. (23:42):
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Isaac Cook (He/They): Checks it will detect boobies. (23:44):
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Emma Stanley (She/Her): How the hell did that get past marketing? (23:47):
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Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah, exactly. Who was like, I need a machine that will tell me if a passenger has boobs. (23:51):
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Speaker4: And, like, I. (23:58):
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Emma Stanley (She/Her): Suppose we should be lucky they haven't put them outside bathrooms at this point. (23:59):
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Isaac Cook (He/They): So honestly, listen, we don't. (24:03):
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We can't put a pass like Texas or some ofthose states that are outlawing this stuff,
but, um, but yeah, like it that, like, blowsmy mind too, because like, like even like
there are, like heavier built men thatdefinitely like, I would probably have a
similar breast shape to them.
Like I'm like, would that detect like, whatis it only like bottom genitalia.
(24:26):
Like what?
Anyways, I know no one can answer thatquestion, but I'm just like throwing things
out there because now I want to I want todig into it.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): And, you know, here we could actually throw it out if there's any listeners out there who (24:34):
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have any, you know, any comments, anyinsight on this or have anything to add, any.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Cbsa officers out there? (24:44):
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Yeah.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Email us at this at our connect. (24:46):
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Is it connect at hasis.
Com it's our brand new email.
So connect@hasis.com.
Or you can DM us on social media.
But we'd love to hear like other people'sexperiences traveling.
And if they've uh, if they've had their bitschecked out while they're going through the
border about that.
(25:07):
Jesus. Uh, so let's pivot a little bitbecause this is going to be part of like a
two part series. And I'd be really curiousto hear Isaac and Emma, what you think about,
as you know, you're spending your hardearned money, you're taking a holiday, you're
traveling. Let's like, you're staying maybewithin Canada, and you're going to like an
Airbnb or maybe like a smaller hotel, oryou're taking a tour as a same sex couple as
(25:30):
a trans person. And that.
What do you think? Like tourism operators?
What do you think? Like the travel industryshould be doing better to just ensure that,
you know, you're not going away from thatsituation feeling like you've just spent your
money here and you didn't really get a greatvibe from from your host or from, you know,
the tour that you were taking.
Isaac Cook (He/They): I'll put the spotlight on you first, Emma. (25:48):
undefined
So. Oh, rude.
Speaker4: Um. (25:52):
undefined
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Let's see. (25:54):
undefined
Vacations. Have I ever been able to afford avacation?
Oh, wait, I'm a millennial, so.
No, but in my dream vacation, um.
Yeah. I mean, I think it comes down to somereally basic things.
Um, just basic inclusive language.
(26:16):
Being inclusive as a company basically comesdown to making it so that the language and
the environment of your country isn't tailormade for only one kind of person.
You need to look at your company a littlebit, look at the language that you use, look
at the forms and the systems that you havein place.
(26:38):
And try and think outside of your ownexperience to to see if those systems.
Are fit more than one kind of person.
A really simple way is like, if there's twopeople in the room or if there's an
application form and it just has like aspace for husband and wife, say it's a
(27:01):
couples suite. Just.
Just switch it to partner.
It's not a huge deal, but it is going tomake me feel safe when I'm booking that trip.
I'm much more likely to actually book if thelanguage in the advertisements, and
especially in any sort of form, isinclusive.
(27:21):
So language is a big part of it.
Absolutely.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah. And just to really echo on that, um, I worked quite a few years in hospitality, most (27:24):
undefined
more particularly more specifically in, inhotels.
Um, and typically if you see two individualsof the perceived same sex, um, most
individuals would assume that they probablywant two beds in the room.
(27:46):
And a lot of times if they see two peoplecome up, they'll automatically book people in
a two bedroom, two bedrooms.
But I think one of the biggest things is toalways ask questions, of course, within
moderation. Don't be asking them weirdquestions.
Um, but don't be afraid to ask questions.
(28:07):
And if you do ask the wrong question, beopen to understanding their perspective and
their experiences.
And don't take one experience from one transor queer or two as LGBTQ or what have you,
individual or traveler, and associate itwith every other experiences of that exact
(28:29):
same traveler. You know, I even knowtraveling agencies.
They'll they have this like mindset, like,this is the ideal traveler.
It's typically a white, cis, straight,middle aged man and woman who maybe have
three kids, but their kids are probably outof the house now.
So they they build these like packages basedon that kind of perceived notion and what
(28:55):
these people want.
But it's important to really look outside ofthat and be like, okay, who is our typical
customer? Who is our typical client?
And and who are we missing in this kind ofdatabase and who who haven't we've been able
to actually attract to our organization orestablishment?
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): I love that. I mean, and it comes down to, like you say, like being intentional about (29:14):
undefined
it. So when you mentioned about the beds andthat like as a, as a tourism operator, you
don't have to out anybody or make anyonefeel uncomfortable.
You could just say, oh, like we have variousrooms, some have king beds, some have queen,
some have twins.
You know, what would what what what's yourpreference?
What would you like?
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah. Are you looking for two beds or one? (29:33):
undefined
If they want one bed. Do you want a king ora queen?
It's it's it's pretty straightforwardquestions.
But, you know, even when I was working I hadcolleagues that would be like, it'd be like
two men and they'd be like, okay.
Or like they would kind of like, joke aboutit.
They'd be like, oh, I'm assuming you wanttwo beds.
And like, the guys were like, ha ha ha.
Yeah, of course we're not snuggling.
(29:54):
But like, imagine if they were a couple, youknow, that could have been an uncomfortable
situation to be like, actually, we do wantone bed, you know.
So it just it just leaving it up to theindividual to, to make that distinction and
not to assume.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): But you make a really good point there and raise a question how much of companies (30:08):
undefined
behavior is based on the fact that if theyoffer two straight guys one bed, they now
have a couple of really pissed offhomophobic customers to deal with?
Um, because I guarantee you that happens.
Speaker4: Mhm. Yeah. (30:30):
undefined
Emma Stanley (She/Her): You know, you get the sort of would you like two beds or one. (30:31):
undefined
What are you saying.
What? Just asking a question.
But those questions weren't okay to askuntil recently.
So there is an element to this of ofcompanies have to trust their customers not
to flip their lids when they don't assumethey're straight, because a lot of straight
people are used to a world that assumes thatthey are straight, but never challenges that
(30:54):
perception. And in fact, challenging thatperception in any way was considered a
pretty, uh, like still is considered a veryserious insult.
Uh, yeah.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): I think you have to be clear on your policies and values then as a company that, you know, (31:05):
undefined
if what do you do if you have then, uh, somecustomers that are upset because, you know,
they feel like, oh, no, I don't like whatyou're doing.
You know, you need to be able to beempowered to have, like, your comment, you
know, your policies there to let them knowthat, hey, like, sorry, we don't tolerate you
(31:27):
have a problem. You know, I'd be willing tosay, look, if you have a problem, you know,
this is who we are, maybe you're going tolose that customer.
You know, maybe. But I would like to believethat, you know, I think the idea of
attracting and supporting a more diverseclientele and having space for, for everybody
is, you know, is is on your it's on that'sthe real agenda.
(31:48):
That's that value should be important toyou.
Speaker4: Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. (31:51):
undefined
Absolutely.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Yeah. And standing behind it so that you don't have like maybe a 17 year old working (31:53):
undefined
behind the counter that has to like fieldthat and not feel like they're there.
Speaker4: Yeah. (32:02):
undefined
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah yeah a 17 year old that's probably making $1,314 an hour. (32:02):
undefined
And the managers kind of sitting behind justnot doing anything.
So yeah it starts from the top and works itsway down, that's for sure.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Yeah I guess too for small businesses, tourism operators, if you are like you're (32:15):
undefined
inclusive and you're, you know, you've gotthat culture, you've got the education,
you're aware like you, you put thevisibility out there as well so everybody can
see it. So whether it's, you know, um, youhave like like a, a bracelet, a rainbow
bracelet on your water bottle or you havelike a, you know, like a little tagline on
(32:39):
your website, like, everyone is welcomehere.
We support a place of, you know, of humanrights for everybody.
You know, we don't stand for any kind ofdiscrimination, especially this blah, blah,
blah. You know, you can you can help helppeople research and know how safe you are
before they even have to step in your door,you know, or step on the premises.
(32:59):
Yeah.
Speaker4: Yeah. (32:59):
undefined
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): That's so good. (33:00):
undefined
Speaker4: Yeah, I. (33:01):
undefined
Isaac Cook (He/They): Know I'm enjoying this. (33:02):
undefined
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): I can't wait till you're there. (33:04):
undefined
Like with a coconut drink and you're likethe CEO sharing how it, uh, how it went.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): No, it's going to be this is this is going to be the first time I have not cross-dressed in (33:12):
undefined
an airport in four years.
So that's going to be pretty wild.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): We'll be so excited to catch back up with you then when you have landed in Thailand and (33:21):
undefined
you're working with us from over there.
But to follow up on actually how.
Speaker4: Well, thank. (33:29):
undefined
Emma Stanley (She/Her): You very much for having me on and I will talk to you guys soon. (33:30):
undefined
Speaker4: Like. (33:33):
undefined
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Many, many hours again of travel and layovers and several flights to get to your (33:34):
undefined
destination. So, uh, you'll have to reportback.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): All right, I will. (33:41):
undefined
Isaac Cook (He/They): Awesome. Thank you so much, Emma, for for joining us today. (33:42):
undefined
We appreciate you taking the time to shareall your wild stories and, uh, get some
insights on all the fun stuff.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): That's all the time we have today, folks. (33:51):
undefined
Thank you for joining us for another episodeof paces.
Isaac Cook (He/They): The conversation doesn't have to stop here, though. (33:57):
undefined
If you would like to get in touch with us toask us a question or share your story on a
future episode, you can email us at Connectat Simply Good forum.com, or visit us on our
website at spacex.com. (Transcribed by Sonix.ai - Remove this message by upgrading your Sonix account)
undefined
From coast-to-coast-to-coast, we're bridgingthe gap between the cisgender and transgender
community, creating meaningful dialogue andspace to learn and grow.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Join us as we connect with our community, break down tough conversations, and get (00:11):
undefined
comfortable being better humans.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): At this point, I'm already really panicking because. (00:21):
undefined
Um. I'm not just thinking, oh God, I'm goingto have trouble getting into the border.
I'm thinking, this person thinks that I'mcommitting a federal offense of of using
someone else's passport.
(00:42):
This is terrifying.
I'm like, I'm functionally being accused ofa major crime right now.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): So today on Hey, Cis! (00:48):
undefined
Isaac and I are super excited to have one ofour very own joining us, Emma Stanley, who
is.
Speaker4: Hello! (00:57):
undefined
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): We are very excited to have you here, Emma. (00:58):
undefined
Emma's been working with Simply Good Formsince fall of 2021, and now she is taking her
show on the road and going to be workingwith us from another part of the globe.
And we are here to talk about travel.
Uh, traveling.
What? You know, what it's like if you are amember of the trans community, the non-binary
(01:21):
community, what barriers exist?
What do you have to think about that theaverage cis traveler just never has to think
about. And with your vast experience in thepast and this upcoming trip, we're excited to
hear some of your thoughts on that, Emma.
So welcome.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): I am super pleased, uh, to be here and bring my vast experience to bear on this (01:38):
undefined
complicated topic.
Um, hi, I'm Emma Stanley.
I work with SGF and I use she her pronouns.
Um. I have been traveling, uh, prettyconsistently around the world since 2009.
(02:00):
Um, and in the past 4 or 5 years, I've beensort of traveling while trans and traveling
while fair. Uh, and, yeah, I'm that's whatI'm here to talk about.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): I think going back a little bit before we talk about your, uh, your trip coming up to, (02:15):
undefined
uh, to Thailand, um, you have kind of a bitof a checkered background of, uh, potential,
uh, arrests at, uh, border crossings orchallenging situations, which maybe isn't
uncommon, for some trans people.
And maybe it's something people get reallynervous about.
(02:35):
Do you want to talk a little bit about, uh,maybe some of your experiences?
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Yeah, we can, um. (02:40):
undefined
Yeah, traveling. Well, queer can be achallenge.
And traveling while your body and identitydon't match your paperwork is terrifying at
times. Um.
Now, it does have to be said that I have,uh, just to give some context, my background
(03:02):
is pretty privileged in, like, every otherarea.
Um, I am Caucasian.
I'm educated.
Uh, at the time, I was married, um, so I hadadvantages that an enormous number of people
don't have. And so I was, in the end, ableto sort of extricate myself from these
situations. But it was never me getting meout of these problems.
(03:27):
It was people that I knew.
And I think that was the scariest part forme.
Um, it was only by the grace of who I knewthat this didn't become a bigger problem.
Um, so I have been, uh, presenting femininefor four years now.
I'm pretty widely, um, but, um, because ofsome other things which I will get into
(03:55):
later, I promise.
Um, I have been unable to change mypaperwork until a few months ago, and so I
was traveling again with a with a body andan identity that didn't match my official
identification. So when I go to airports, Ihave a really specific set of clothes and
mannerisms that I project.
(04:16):
Uh, I basically dress really androgynouslybig hoodies, big jeans, um, and uh, when I
still owned a binder, I would wear it when,uh, when I started needing one, uh, to make
sure that I looked at least similar to myidentification.
And I thought that that would be enough.
(04:40):
And it was funny. I had my hair tucked upinto a hat.
I just tried to masculinize a bit.
Uh, we we usually just call it boy molding.
Um. And I was really surprised when itdidn't work.
So I was coming into Thailand.
Um. Because I had just changed a visa.
(05:01):
So the problem with that is that I was nottraveling for pleasure.
I was.
Out of the country to, uh, I had to leavethe country, go to an embassy, change my
paperwork, and re-enter the country.
And because I was actually working whilethis was happening, it all needed to happen
(05:22):
on a weekend. So it needed to happen in twodays.
Uh, so in the.
Uh, 48 hours of the weekend.
I had been traveling or waiting in consulatelines for 40 of them at this point.
I was coming back into the country.
I'd gotten all of my paperwork signed, and Iwas, uh, very tired.
(05:46):
Uh, but but relaxed.
Uh, so I went up to the counter.
Give the guy my ticket, my passport.
He's checking my visa and he turns to thefirst page, sees the picture, sees the
information there, and just looks me in theface and says, this isn't you.
And what do you do right now?
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Be pretty scary. (06:06):
undefined
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Yeah. Um, you can't argue with border guards. (06:07):
undefined
You you. Yeah.
It is is a really terrible thing to say atthis point.
Um, and I am really lucky that he spoke asmuch English as he did, because at the time,
I spoke no Thai.
Um. And.
(06:28):
So at least, at very least, we could evenhave this conversation.
Uh, so I sort of looked at him and, and notreally thinking about it, said, yeah, it is.
So, um, for those of you who don't know,never disagree with border guards.
Um, they they are not fans of it.
Now, he was not a bad person.
He was super calm about the whole thing, buthe was pretty insistent that this was not me.
(06:54):
And. At this point, I'm already reallypanicking because.
Um. I'm not just thinking, oh God, I'm goingto have trouble getting into the border.
I'm thinking, this person thinks that I'mcommitting a federal offense of of using
(07:15):
someone else's passport.
This is terrifying.
I'm like, I'm functionally being accused ofa major crime right now in a foreign country.
Uh, and.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): You're exhausted 40 hours in and. (07:26):
undefined
Emma Stanley (She/Her): And and I'm exhausted. (07:28):
undefined
So this is the nerves are way, way up.
Eventually, I kind of calmed down andrealized that, um, the other lucky thing is
that I'm pretty paranoid, um, alongside myhoodie and my hat and, uh, my my
(07:52):
mannerisms. I also have five separate piecesof of identification.
I took out, uh, two driver's licenses from,uh, the countries I'd been in previously.
A credit card, um, all in my old name.
And, uh, he didn't believe any of them.
(08:14):
It wasn't actually, until I called my thenwife over, uh, to vouch for me, uh, which was
tricky because she had already gone through.
And they don't let you go back through thoselines.
So she had to sort of shout over the, uh,um, over the turnstiles that, yeah, I know
them. It's fine.
And, uh, at that point, uh, I was allowed togo in.
(08:40):
And. Yeah.
It's just, uh, amazing to me that we stillhave a system where there was no way for me
to prove who I was.
We insist, or people seem to be insisting onthese documents that will prove who we are.
And they're supposed to look like this.
(09:02):
I've had friends from work.
Coworkers? Uh, say that.
We shouldn't allow, uh, changing gender on,uh, on official documents because, you know,
you could use it to fake people out.
And yet this document that is supposed to bevery much me doesn't have my fingerprint
anywhere in it.
It has no.
(09:22):
Uh, objective information with which I canprove this is me anywhere in it.
And it was a real eye opener that we trustthese documents and these systems, uh, so
much that when they fail, we have norecourse.
This was purely.
Is this guy going to trust me or am I goingto go to immigration jail?
(09:45):
Um, so yeah, that was that was reallyterrifying and and genuinely an eye opener.
Uh.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah. I was just going to jump in, uh, really quick. (09:51):
undefined
Uh, um, so just to just to confirm as well.
So where is your paperwork at the time?
Did it have was it the sex defined as male,or was it kind of like he looked at the photo
and was like, this doesn't look like, you.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Know, my, um, my passport at the time had my old name. (10:13):
undefined
Uh, gotcha. And and my old identity, whichwas, which was male.
Um, and apparently I pass way better than Ithought I did to the point where I can't even
fake it anymore.
Um, yeah.
And it just. Uh, kind of quietly insistedthis.
(10:36):
This is not you.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): So if you didn't have all of that ID like, what do you think? (10:38):
undefined
I mean, I like what do you think would havehappened?
Or you just probably don't even want tothink about what would have happened.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Oh, I've thought about it. (10:48):
undefined
I was I mean, I was thinking about it at thetime because, um, I suffer from ADHD, and
that means, uh, my plans to be prepared, uh,don't often actually happen.
So I knew that I had intended to put all ofthis identification in my bag.
And it turned out this time I had.
(11:08):
And that was really lucky.
But while I was digging for it, I'mthinking, okay, if this if I have in fact
forgotten to put this in, what am I going todo?
And my next idea was to call my boss,because then I can attach myself to a company
and say they can call and sort of confirm myidentity.
Um, but that can't happen in a line up.
(11:31):
So that would have meant, uh, finding aspace in the airport where I can, uh, make a
request to call my boss.
Um, and even that depends on a whetherthey're going to let me do that.
And B, uh, the I'm just, again, very lucky.
I was working for a fairly large companythat they probably would have recognized the
(11:55):
name of. And my boss has he knows me.
He's been working there for 20 years.
They will they will trust his word on thisthing.
Um, and again, it's where the rest of myprivilege is really protected me from this
one really vulnerable moment.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): And remind, I say, just repeat again. (12:11):
undefined
So what border were you crossing?
You were going from, from Thailand or you'regoing into Thailand from.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): I was returning to Thailand, from Laos. (12:19):
undefined
Um, they when you change visa paperwork, youalmost always need to leave the country to do
that so that you're processed with thatpaperwork when you come in.
And of course, Covid has changed most ofthose rules, but at the time, this was
certainly the case.
Speaker5: Yeah, right. (12:38):
undefined
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): And I wonder because like, well, it's interesting because, uh, Forbes uh, they (12:39):
undefined
printed in uh, 2021, uh, some of the toplike no go zones for LGBTQ plus people.
And now can Canada actually rated the safeout of the top five places, um, for
traveling. But, um, on this no go zone listwas, you know, Nigeria came in at number one
(13:03):
and Saudi Arabia, but then you have Malaysiaand Malawi are up there as being really
unsafe. Um, yeah.
Travel, which is in sort of that neck of thewoods where you're traveling.
But for for trans people in Thailand, um,and that is, is quite safe, isn't it, if you
once you get there.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Yes, absolutely. (13:19):
undefined
It's, it's been amazing.
And in fact, um, the company that I was withwas really good about it.
Uh, there was never any, uh, weirdnessthere.
And, uh, in a sort of putting their moneywhere their mouth is, they made sure that
when I did need to do visa changes, I wasnot sent to Malaysia to do them.
(13:41):
Um. And there are a few countries in thearea where if you live there, it's safe.
But the rules on the books are notnecessarily safe.
Um. So Myanmar was not a top choice.
It was the story that I heard on the groundwas, it's fine to be there, but don't cross
(14:02):
the border. And I have no idea how seriouslyto take those.
It really depends on the border guards andwhat mood they're in on any particular day.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah, I think I think that's a very, very good point because even, um, you know, and (14:09):
undefined
not a lot of folks, uh, realize this too.
So Canada has what's the formal terms of it?
I think it's like travel advisories, Canadatravel advice and advisories.
And typically in that document, in that hugepage of all the many countries in the world,
(14:33):
they'll list kind of what they advise you door not do.
And in there there is a section for to LGBTQplus people and you know, they'll rank it
will not necessarily rank it, but they'llmention even to like hand-holding or like
public displays of affection or, you know,sleeping in the same bed as someone with the
the same sex. But it's it's reallyinteresting to look at how governments,
(14:56):
especially in particular Canada, breaks downthat perspective of like, foreign countries.
Um, so if anyone ever wants it's definitelynot light reading by any means, because
they're massive documents to talk aboutanything from potential illnesses, infections
such like that in other countries.
But it's definitely a good reference point,uh, and a baseline for people to get if they
are traveling.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Well. And it's important to know because so like, for instance, uh, the African country, (15:15):
undefined
as I mentioned, um, Malawi, I think, uh,they had written that same sex, uh, acts
could result in 14 years in prison for, formen and five years for women.
And, you know, places like that would besurprising.
So for myself, as a parent of a trans child,um, you hear, you know, before Covid,
(15:38):
families taking off and going to Jamaica, Ihad a friend that had a destination wedding
in Jamaica, um, which we weren't at anyway,but, uh, it's not safe for trans people.
Uh, Jamaica is on that list, and there's alot of Caribbean places as well.
So if you think if you go there, um, so evenif you were, as you mentioned, boycotting,
which I'd never heard before, or you couldpass, um, if you get injured or if you need
(16:04):
hospital or you need support, um, and thatcould become very difficult, uh, for you
even, I guess if you're a family travelingdown to the States, you know, like just
crossing the border here from Canada to thestates, you know, if you have a trans child,
don't get sick down there or break your legin certain states like Texas and several
others. But, um, there's a lot ofconsiderations, isn't there?
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Yeah, it definitely is a lens through which you you experience the world. (16:28):
undefined
You you have to make every choice with thisone more qualifier, um, of is it going to be
safe? And.
When you get to a country, the culture ofthe country inside it and the laws that are
(16:49):
on the books are always going to bedifferent.
Um, certainly the Middle East is is prettyfamous for being not accepting.
But when you actually live there and I have,uh.
It's. They don't care nearly as much as youthink they do.
The trick is that they don't want to hearabout it or interact with it, but they don't
(17:10):
ask either. They it's just kind of a closedtopic.
It's actually pretty safe unless somebodyfinds out.
And then rather than deal with, as you say,some.
Uh, consequences. That can be extremelyharsh.
They'll usually. The company that I workfor.
Someone found out one of the teachers wasgay, and he was quietly flown out of the
(17:34):
country that night.
They said a student, uh, started a rumor.
Doesn't matter if it's true.
Pack your bags.
Wow. Uh, and his his life just came to ahalt.
He had plans.
He had a job, he had an apartment, and itall just kind of went away.
And this was the, like, much more low key,merciful version of this thing.
(17:56):
This was like, we're going to get you out ofthe country so that nothing bad happens to
you. Um, so yeah, it can be really quitescary.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah, yeah. (18:05):
undefined
And I just want to jump back a little bitto, um, to to your experience at the, at the
border because I know, um, quite often when,when there's any issue, border guards like to
have their immediate reaction be a bodysearch.
And that's typically when they.
Yeah, figure out it's a put in very PGterms, um, what's happening.
(18:30):
And um, I remember one time I was going intoGuatemala and everyone was getting body
search and it had no distinction.
Mhm. Uh, if you had potentially something orif you were pulled aside and I remember
because they had two lines and then one wasa, you know, a masculine presenting guard,
the other one was a feminine presentingguard.
And they, you know, ushered, you know, womento feminine and then masculine to the man.
(18:52):
And I remember staying there and I was like,hmm.
I go, where do I go?
Um, and I kind of I eventually.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Was out the least. (19:05):
undefined
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah, yeah. And eventually, like, you know, my heart was telling me to go towards the (19:06):
undefined
feminine guard, but the male guard just, youknow, grabbed me and was like, pop up.
And then like, as soon as he got to, like,here, he was like, oh.
And I was like, it's fine.
Like, let's not make a big deal out of it.
Like, I'm not gonna like, scream.
We're good. I don't have anything on me.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Um, I will become. (19:25):
undefined
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah, exactly. We'll just act like nothing happened. (19:26):
undefined
But he he felt bad.
Yeah, yeah, he felt he felt genuinely bad.
Um, but it was, it was just kind of like afunny experience because, like, even
non-trans people have that.
I can't tell you the amount of times of,like, butch presenting people that I know who
have been like, ushered towards like a maleor masculine presenting guard.
(19:47):
And they're like, I'm not comfortable withyou touching my body.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): So any anyone who's not presenting. (19:51):
undefined
In, in a really heteronormative way is goingto cause a certain amount of confusion at
those stations.
Um.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): If you're traveling with people that don't know you're trans, like, what if you're (20:02):
undefined
traveling with friends and they don't knowthat you're trans and you're in that
situation like, you know, that's another,you know.
Speaker4: Surprise. (20:12):
undefined
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): But this is interesting because Emma and I, we had a conversation, Isaac, kind of behind (20:13):
undefined
the scenes like a couple of weeks ago, whichmade us like made me think deeper about wow,
travel and that. But what about so you'renot, like, in a body search, but you go
through the that, you know, like thatscanner, that body scanner that goes up.
Isaac Cook (He/They): And down like the turnstile, like. (20:29):
undefined
Speaker4: Yeah, what if. (20:31):
undefined
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): You're wearing a packer, like, say you're a teen or you're wearing a pack or an STP, (20:32):
undefined
like, would that like, would that be aconcern that a parent or, or just a person
that is wearing something like that, wouldthat would that be kind of something that you
might want to think about before you travelor.
Isaac Cook (He/They): I don't I don't want to jump in here, but I don't I don't know what all it detects. (20:49):
undefined
So like for instance, like I have a heartmonitor and they've never asked me ever about
it. And I'm like, it could be okay if CanadaBorder Security is listening right now.
It is not a bomb, but it could be a bomb,you know, like it could be a bomb.
(21:10):
Um, I'm not flying with any bombs, Ipromise.
Like, you know, um, but, you know, like.
And I've never had anyone pull me, pull measide for it or, like, inquire about it so I
don't like I think with those ones inparticular, I mean, within Canada at least, I
think it only detects like certain types ofmetals and substances.
So if it's like a liquid or like a metal,but don't quote me on that.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): It's an interesting thing. (21:35):
undefined
I know I've read an article, um, that it waspicking up everything.
Um, and this was pretty early on.
In the days of them, this would have beenlike in the, um, in the mid-aughts.
So somewhere between 2001 and 2010.
Um, so it would have been when I firststarted traveling because.
(21:58):
Uh. We were always we were.
We were curious about them because they werestill sort of coming out and.
Yeah, I have gotten caught by that.
When you go through them, there is a agender button or a sexy button that they can
press that will ignore certaincharacteristics, like underwires.
(22:21):
Um, if they press the lady button, and ifyou are wearing the wrong underclothes or
having the wrong bits.
Uh, some of them will go off.
I remember going through Frankfurt, Germany.
Um, this would have been five years ago.
Easily. And when I went through, it pinged.
(22:42):
Um. And at that point I was presentingfemale all the time, but I hadn't had surgery
yet. And I said, okay, just try the otherbutton, I'll go through again.
And it went through and I was fine.
So it, uh, it was fine.
And the border guards, you know, theyapologized.
They were being really cool about it, but,uh, but yeah, it they did need to press the
(23:03):
other button for it not to, to go off.
So I'm not sure what they did.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah. That's so weird that that was like a cyst. (23:08):
undefined
And do you know approximately like, whatyear that was.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): When we lived in Oman. (23:14):
undefined
So yeah. Past 5 to 6 years tops.
So post 2015 would be the best I could do.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): I guess it depends on the airport and the size and all that our little Halifax airport (23:23):
undefined
might not, uh, might, might not have thatcapability.
Maybe it does, you know.
Yeah. Uh.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Well, I just find it such a weird. (23:34):
undefined
A weirdly specific function to have, becausealso, like.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): I've invented a machine that. (23:42):
undefined
Isaac Cook (He/They): Checks it will detect boobies. (23:44):
undefined
Emma Stanley (She/Her): How the hell did that get past marketing? (23:47):
undefined
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah, exactly. Who was like, I need a machine that will tell me if a passenger has boobs. (23:51):
undefined
Speaker4: And, like, I. (23:58):
undefined
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Suppose we should be lucky they haven't put them outside bathrooms at this point. (23:59):
undefined
Isaac Cook (He/They): So honestly, listen, we don't. (24:03):
undefined
We can't put a pass like Texas or some ofthose states that are outlawing this stuff,
but, um, but yeah, like it that, like, blowsmy mind too, because like, like even like
there are, like heavier built men thatdefinitely like, I would probably have a
similar breast shape to them.
Like I'm like, would that detect like, whatis it only like bottom genitalia.
(24:26):
Like what?
Anyways, I know no one can answer thatquestion, but I'm just like throwing things
out there because now I want to I want todig into it.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): And, you know, here we could actually throw it out if there's any listeners out there who (24:34):
undefined
have any, you know, any comments, anyinsight on this or have anything to add, any.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Cbsa officers out there? (24:44):
undefined
Yeah.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Email us at this at our connect. (24:46):
undefined
Is it connect at hasis.
Com it's our brand new email.
So connect@hasis.com.
Or you can DM us on social media.
But we'd love to hear like other people'sexperiences traveling.
And if they've uh, if they've had their bitschecked out while they're going through the
border about that.
(25:07):
Jesus. Uh, so let's pivot a little bitbecause this is going to be part of like a
two part series. And I'd be really curiousto hear Isaac and Emma, what you think about,
as you know, you're spending your hardearned money, you're taking a holiday, you're
traveling. Let's like, you're staying maybewithin Canada, and you're going to like an
Airbnb or maybe like a smaller hotel, oryou're taking a tour as a same sex couple as
(25:30):
a trans person. And that.
What do you think? Like tourism operators?
What do you think? Like the travel industryshould be doing better to just ensure that,
you know, you're not going away from thatsituation feeling like you've just spent your
money here and you didn't really get a greatvibe from from your host or from, you know,
the tour that you were taking.
Isaac Cook (He/They): I'll put the spotlight on you first, Emma. (25:48):
undefined
So. Oh, rude.
Speaker4: Um. (25:52):
undefined
Emma Stanley (She/Her): Let's see. (25:54):
undefined
Vacations. Have I ever been able to afford avacation?
Oh, wait, I'm a millennial, so.
No, but in my dream vacation, um.
Yeah. I mean, I think it comes down to somereally basic things.
Um, just basic inclusive language.
(26:16):
Being inclusive as a company basically comesdown to making it so that the language and
the environment of your country isn't tailormade for only one kind of person.
You need to look at your company a littlebit, look at the language that you use, look
at the forms and the systems that you havein place.
(26:38):
And try and think outside of your ownexperience to to see if those systems.
Are fit more than one kind of person.
A really simple way is like, if there's twopeople in the room or if there's an
application form and it just has like aspace for husband and wife, say it's a
(27:01):
couples suite. Just.
Just switch it to partner.
It's not a huge deal, but it is going tomake me feel safe when I'm booking that trip.
I'm much more likely to actually book if thelanguage in the advertisements, and
especially in any sort of form, isinclusive.
(27:21):
So language is a big part of it.
Absolutely.
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah. And just to really echo on that, um, I worked quite a few years in hospitality, most (27:24):
undefined
more particularly more specifically in, inhotels.
Um, and typically if you see two individualsof the perceived same sex, um, most
individuals would assume that they probablywant two beds in the room.
(27:46):
And a lot of times if they see two peoplecome up, they'll automatically book people in
a two bedroom, two bedrooms.
But I think one of the biggest things is toalways ask questions, of course, within
moderation. Don't be asking them weirdquestions.
Um, but don't be afraid to ask questions.
(28:07):
And if you do ask the wrong question, beopen to understanding their perspective and
their experiences.
And don't take one experience from one transor queer or two as LGBTQ or what have you,
individual or traveler, and associate itwith every other experiences of that exact
(28:29):
same traveler. You know, I even knowtraveling agencies.
They'll they have this like mindset, like,this is the ideal traveler.
It's typically a white, cis, straight,middle aged man and woman who maybe have
three kids, but their kids are probably outof the house now.
So they they build these like packages basedon that kind of perceived notion and what
(28:55):
these people want.
But it's important to really look outside ofthat and be like, okay, who is our typical
customer? Who is our typical client?
And and who are we missing in this kind ofdatabase and who who haven't we've been able
to actually attract to our organization orestablishment?
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): I love that. I mean, and it comes down to, like you say, like being intentional about (29:14):
undefined
it. So when you mentioned about the beds andthat like as a, as a tourism operator, you
don't have to out anybody or make anyonefeel uncomfortable.
You could just say, oh, like we have variousrooms, some have king beds, some have queen,
some have twins.
You know, what would what what what's yourpreference?
What would you like?
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah. Are you looking for two beds or one? (29:33):
undefined
If they want one bed. Do you want a king ora queen?
It's it's it's pretty straightforwardquestions.
But, you know, even when I was working I hadcolleagues that would be like, it'd be like
two men and they'd be like, okay.
Or like they would kind of like, joke aboutit.
They'd be like, oh, I'm assuming you wanttwo beds.
And like, the guys were like, ha ha ha.
Yeah, of course we're not snuggling.
(29:54):
But like, imagine if they were a couple, youknow, that could have been an uncomfortable
situation to be like, actually, we do wantone bed, you know.
So it just it just leaving it up to theindividual to, to make that distinction and
not to assume.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): But you make a really good point there and raise a question how much of companies (30:08):
undefined
behavior is based on the fact that if theyoffer two straight guys one bed, they now
have a couple of really pissed offhomophobic customers to deal with?
Um, because I guarantee you that happens.
Speaker4: Mhm. Yeah. (30:30):
undefined
Emma Stanley (She/Her): You know, you get the sort of would you like two beds or one. (30:31):
undefined
What are you saying.
What? Just asking a question.
But those questions weren't okay to askuntil recently.
So there is an element to this of ofcompanies have to trust their customers not
to flip their lids when they don't assumethey're straight, because a lot of straight
people are used to a world that assumes thatthey are straight, but never challenges that
(30:54):
perception. And in fact, challenging thatperception in any way was considered a
pretty, uh, like still is considered a veryserious insult.
Uh, yeah.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): I think you have to be clear on your policies and values then as a company that, you know, (31:05):
undefined
if what do you do if you have then, uh, somecustomers that are upset because, you know,
they feel like, oh, no, I don't like whatyou're doing.
You know, you need to be able to beempowered to have, like, your comment, you
know, your policies there to let them knowthat, hey, like, sorry, we don't tolerate you
(31:27):
have a problem. You know, I'd be willing tosay, look, if you have a problem, you know,
this is who we are, maybe you're going tolose that customer.
You know, maybe. But I would like to believethat, you know, I think the idea of
attracting and supporting a more diverseclientele and having space for, for everybody
is, you know, is is on your it's on that'sthe real agenda.
(31:48):
That's that value should be important toyou.
Speaker4: Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. (31:51):
undefined
Absolutely.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Yeah. And standing behind it so that you don't have like maybe a 17 year old working (31:53):
undefined
behind the counter that has to like fieldthat and not feel like they're there.
Speaker4: Yeah. (32:02):
undefined
Isaac Cook (He/They): Yeah yeah a 17 year old that's probably making $1,314 an hour. (32:02):
undefined
And the managers kind of sitting behind justnot doing anything.
So yeah it starts from the top and works itsway down, that's for sure.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Yeah I guess too for small businesses, tourism operators, if you are like you're (32:15):
undefined
inclusive and you're, you know, you've gotthat culture, you've got the education,
you're aware like you, you put thevisibility out there as well so everybody can
see it. So whether it's, you know, um, youhave like like a, a bracelet, a rainbow
bracelet on your water bottle or you havelike a, you know, like a little tagline on
(32:39):
your website, like, everyone is welcomehere.
We support a place of, you know, of humanrights for everybody.
You know, we don't stand for any kind ofdiscrimination, especially this blah, blah,
blah. You know, you can you can help helppeople research and know how safe you are
before they even have to step in your door,you know, or step on the premises.
(32:59):
Yeah.
Speaker4: Yeah. (32:59):
undefined
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): That's so good. (33:00):
undefined
Speaker4: Yeah, I. (33:01):
undefined
Isaac Cook (He/They): Know I'm enjoying this. (33:02):
undefined
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): I can't wait till you're there. (33:04):
undefined
Like with a coconut drink and you're likethe CEO sharing how it, uh, how it went.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): No, it's going to be this is this is going to be the first time I have not cross-dressed in (33:12):
undefined
an airport in four years.
So that's going to be pretty wild.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): We'll be so excited to catch back up with you then when you have landed in Thailand and (33:21):
undefined
you're working with us from over there.
But to follow up on actually how.
Speaker4: Well, thank. (33:29):
undefined
Emma Stanley (She/Her): You very much for having me on and I will talk to you guys soon. (33:30):
undefined
Speaker4: Like. (33:33):
undefined
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): Many, many hours again of travel and layovers and several flights to get to your (33:34):
undefined
destination. So, uh, you'll have to reportback.
Emma Stanley (She/Her): All right, I will. (33:41):
undefined
Isaac Cook (He/They): Awesome. Thank you so much, Emma, for for joining us today. (33:42):
undefined
We appreciate you taking the time to shareall your wild stories and, uh, get some
insights on all the fun stuff.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her): That's all the time we have today, folks. (33:51):
undefined
Thank you for joining us for another episodeof paces.
Isaac Cook (He/They): The conversation doesn't have to stop here, though. (33:57):
undefined
If you would like to get in touch with us toask us a question or share your story on a
future episode, you can email us at Connectat Simply Good forum.com, or visit us on our
website at spacex.com. (Transcribed by Sonix.ai - Remove this message by upgrading your Sonix account)
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