Claire Thomas: A Witness to Joy and Pain

E460 Claire Thomas hails from the heartland of rural south Wales, and is an award-winning photojournalist and fine art photographer. She covers political and military conflicts, human rights, and humanitarian and environmental crises. From refugee camps in Europe to the frontlines against ISIS in Iraq, Claire has contributed impactful images and photo essays to leading […]

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
Hey, humans. How's it going? Susan Ruth here.
Thanks for listening to another episode
of Hey, Human podcast.
This is episode 460,
and my guest is Claire Thomas. I've known
Claire a really long time. We met years
ago
in Wyoming.
And I'm just gonna read the bio straight

(00:28):
from her website because it's perfect and says
everything that needs to be said.
Claire hails from the heartland of rural South
Wales
and is an award winning photojournalist
and fine art photographer currently based between The
UK and Egypt.
Her focus on photojournalism
spans critical subjects such as political and military

(00:48):
conflicts, human rights, and humanitarian and environmental
crises.
From refugee camps in Europe to the front
lines against ISIS in Iraq,
Claire has contributed impactful images and photo essays
to leading global newspapers,
magazines, and news agencies.
Her exceptional work earned recognition at the twenty

(01:09):
twenty three Amnesty International UK Media Awards for
its profound impact,
specifically
for coverage in Northeast Syria. Her acclaimed fine
art photography sells to collectors and businesses worldwide,
and her work has been exhibited internationally, including
New York, Paris, Brussels, Taipei,
Cairo,
and many other places. She's phenomenally

(01:32):
talented.
We had an incredible conversation,
and I'm excited for you to hear it.
General stuff, check out heyhumanpodcast.com
for links and to learn more about my
guests and the show. Check out susanruth.com
to learn more about me and my other
artistic endeavors.
Follow susan ruthism on social media, and find
my music on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music,

(01:54):
wherever you get your music.
Rate, review, and subscribe to Hey Human podcast
on iTunes, Apple,
iHeart, wherever you like to listen to your
podcasts. And thank you for listening.
Be well.
Be kind.
Be love. Here we go.
Claire Tas, welcome to Hey Human.
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

(02:16):
It's great to see you. It's been years.
Yes.
Yes. Few years. It's been a while. It's
been a while. You look fantastic.
Time has been
You haven't changed at all.
It's amazing. I think you look younger if
anything.
Good Lord.
We met at a horse ranch in Du

(02:39):
Bois, Wyoming at the Lazy L and B
years and years ago.
One of the best couple weeks of my
life, really.
Oh, wow.
So wonderful.
And you were already doing photography then, I
believe.
However, I want to take us back earlier.
Let's go back to the beginning of you.
Where did you grow up and how did

(03:00):
that shape you, your family, and, and develop
you into the interests and into your life
path?
Yeah, well, so I grew up in the
Welsh countryside
and small village called Idole.
Beautiful. I was very lucky. I'm not going
to lie. You know, we had
a very peaceful upbringing,
very calm. My parents were not into horses

(03:23):
at all, but for whatever reason, from the
age of about four,
maybe they put me on a donkey on
the beach or something. I'm not quite sure,
but something happened in my brain where I
became obsessed with horses at a very young
age. And they, you know, my parents indulged
me with pony riding lessons
from probably five or six. I guess

(03:44):
I started my love of horses
from then on and it's really
kind of
shaped the course of my life in many
ways, because I, you know, I've gone off
and done different things and I, I studied
politics.
I've tried studying something horse related, didn't work
for me. So then I went into politics
and I'm glad I did, but then I
keep getting pulled back to

(04:05):
horses in, in various ways, you know, and
it's because of my love of horses that
I ended up in America, obviously.
And now as a journalist, I do a
lot of horse related stories,
which is fantastic.
Yeah. When you decided to
dip your toe into politics and then finally
go into it for education,

(04:27):
were you surprised by
what you came in with knowing and what
you learned about the world?
Yes and no. I was definitely surprised
by, I guess, my lack of knowledge.
But I'm not really surprised. I,
I, I developed an interest in politics from
my dad, so he's really into politics.

(04:49):
And we actually, we grow up, I grew
up watching the West wing, so I really
feel like that had a big influence on
me. I love that show
so much.
Yes.
I think that show is the reason I
studied politics, to be honest. No, I, I
just, I, I wasn't an academic. I couldn't
get into it. I, I learned from

(05:10):
seeing and experiencing and like talking to people,
not necessarily from books. So like I did,
okay. I scraped by,
but then, and it, and it did give
me,
a real interest in finding out more about
like people who are affected by policies. You
know, I wanted to see like the human

(05:30):
angle of, of these abstract things that I'm
learning in the, in the lecture room. It
helped me in many ways because then I,
I, my first
real journalistic
assignment was in Palestine in the west bank.
So I just moved there
and, learned a lot, a lot more than
I'd learned in all of the studying I'd
done, obviously.
So

(05:51):
what year was that?
That wasn't until
2015.
So before that, there were many things that
I'd done a lot of jobs before that
I'd been working on the ranch a lot.
I did like seven summers in total working
on the, at the Lazy L and B
Ranch during the summertime. And then I would
use that money to go and travel around

(06:12):
Africa mostly. So, and then I did these
volunteer,
projects,
that, you know, of course in hindsight, it's
hopeless really. Cause who am I to come
and what, what have I got to offer?
Very little, in fact, but, you know, I,
I learned, I developed myself and the people
in I worked with in South Africa and
then in Ghana were very gracious and understanding

(06:32):
that I was this naive,
well intentioned, but naive, you know, 20
Welsh girl wanting to help, but not having
a lot of skills to offer. But I,
you know, I found, found my own way
and that's when I, I I mean, this
is going a bit later on now, I
guess I first went to Ghana in 2009
and it was then that I started to

(06:54):
like, take a more of an interest in
photography.
And
I saw that with the pictures, I could
draw attention to
the issues that I was
working around.
In doing so then, you know,
I ended up making my own very, very
modest, like fundraising campaign to buy these beds.

(07:14):
It meant a lot to me because I,
I sort of the penny dropped in what,
what photography could be for me. You know,
it could be a form of
not just like
creating something beautiful, but
raising awareness of different things. And then, you
know, having potentially a positive impact in a
small way. You sort of went right by

(07:34):
it, but buying beds. So basically,
as you embedded into various regions,
not only were you documenting what you saw,
which is incredibly important because I think
foremost, politics
has massive
impact on people, but people concentrate more on
the politic than on the people.

(07:55):
And then if you
force them to see what's happening to the
people, Gaza being a great example. Yeah. They
either turn away or they call you names
or they right?
So it it becomes even more paramount
to document
the human impact of these
backroom
decisions.
But you go in and you find also

(08:17):
what is necessary and needed and provide is
this accurate?
Yeah. So I guess the Ghana stuff was
before I became a freelance journalist or a
freelance photojournalist.
So that was like, it was kind of
a long journey for me to get into
even to realizing that photojournalism is what I

(08:37):
want to do. I don't think I even
knew that that was a real profession. I
just want, I just knew
from early days at the ranch, actually that
I wanted to do photography
as a profession,
but no idea that if it, if or
how it would be possible, it started 2000
also in 02/2008,
02/2009. And then I went back in 2012
with a real camera,

(08:58):
you know, a slightly better camera than my
point and shoot.
And that's when, yeah, I started to,
w we were working with women primarily,
very, very
impoverished, vulnerable women who had HIV
AIDS and
a multitude of other health issues is devastating.
And the, the, the family I was working

(09:19):
with were providing whatever support they could and
counseling and this and that. And so I
would, I would visit these women's in their
homes.
It's shocking. Like when you see how little
they have, I mean, for them, it's, it's
normal. Many people
in, in these countries, you know, they, they
don't have a lot of possessions, but when
you add to that
serious illness,

(09:39):
a lot of them had tuberculosis
and, you know, their condition is exacerbated
by their living conditions. So anyway, I discovered
that one thing they all, all of the
women needed and wanted was a simple mattress.
I'm not even talking about proper bed, you
know, just a little foam mattress to, to
get them off the hard ground.
And, and it meant the world. It was

(10:00):
such a positive little thing. I got 77
beds, I think. And then I went back
in 2014.
Yeah, it was,
a turning point for me personally.
Cause I knew I wanted to do, you
know, that kind of photography that tells stories
about people and can, can do something positive.
And,
yeah, so that was, that was something that

(10:22):
has
shaped my journey in some ways. And now
I'm doing another one. Now I've got Ghana
Beds Project two point zero. I love it.
As a woman who is moving through these
spaces and you have been to some of
the more, if not most dangerous places on
the planet
and embedded in there. And I know that
you have trained specialized training that if something

(10:44):
were to go wrong, if somebody were to
get hurt, that you have that kind of
training.
But
who who
soothes and heals you for what you've seen?
How do you deal with the emotional impact,
especially in countries where rape is such a
huge,
part of war Yeah. And
an intentional

(11:05):
infection
of things like HIV. How do
you wrap your head and your soul around
things like that?
Yeah, I really struggled with that when I
first went to Ghana. I I remember, I
think I was 21 or 22
and I would go with my host mother,
Evelyn. She was the
founder of this

(11:25):
community based organization and we would visit these
women. And when they would tell their stories,
I remember feeling very upset.
And I think, you know, then I would
be a little bit teary.
I'd be a little emotional, I guess.
And she like, she was mad.
She was like, no, no, you can't be
like that. You have to be strong for
them. Otherwise we're just adding to the problem.

(11:46):
Like, I don't know. And it stuck with
me. I, you know, shook myself out of
that, but of course, you know, you still
have to process it afterwards.
So for me,
Talking is, is crucial
sharing with friends. And I don't know. I
think
I've been lucky that I've been able to,
you know,
Process these things. But of course, what really

(12:07):
hits me more than anything, even more than
like seeing people brutally injured on the front
lines in Iraq
is the stories of survivors who are, well,
survivors of,
horrendous sexual abuse and captivity,
like the ZDs in Iraq who are held
captive for many, many years. And I've done

(12:28):
a lot of work
With with them, you know, gathering testimonies, taking
portraits for various,
exhibitions. And I mean, that really haunts me.
I try not to imagine what they've gone
through, but when you sit with somebody
for several hours and they're recounting these stories
and, you know, getting pregnant by ISIS commanders
and

(12:49):
then, you know, having to terminate. Right. And,
or give up the babies
or just all kinds of torture.
And still they're there.
Strong sharing their story.
And so, I mean, I have to take
strength from that. You know, I can't then
be
a mess, you know, talking to them, like
these women have gone through, they've gone to
hell and back. And, for some of the

(13:11):
women that, you know, I asked them like,
how
does it, does it help you to share
this story? And some of them say, yes,
it's,
it helps to share, but not like repeatedly.
This is the problem now that I feel
I confront in Iraq that a lot of
women have told their stories and they keep
getting asked to reshare and it's getting too

(13:33):
much,
but for, yeah, for, for others, you know,
now they're just saying like, no, I don't
want to talk about it, which is, is
fair enough. It's such a difficult thing
to relive every time they say it. To
be able to have the time
and energy to mourn and feel sorrow and
be devastated is a luxury in its own

(13:54):
way.
Exactly. They have to stay focused and stay
alive.
Yeah. That's a weird thing to wrap your
head around. That's so true. Privilege to feel
sorrow is
bonkers.
It is actually,
and a lot of the Yazidi women have
told me that it's been a decade now
since the genocide that ISIS committed against this,

(14:16):
this, minority group in Northern Iraq. And they
are, they say they're still in emergency. You
know, they, they haven't got to the point
where they can mourn the loss of their
loved ones. They're still searching for their missing.
Nobody's helping them
or there, there are, but there are efforts
being made, but, you know, for the mothers
whose daughters are still missing, they, they, they

(14:37):
can't fathom it. It's devastating. So they're still
in survival mode, you know, and they're stuck
in limbo. It's a decade. It's hard to
imagine. They still live in camps and displacement
camps. They can't go home. There aren't any
homes left. It's one of so many countries
where this is going on. That's the other
thing. I mean, obviously
there's a genocide happening in Gaza and

(14:57):
a starvation campaign in Gaza that is absolutely
devastating and maddening.
And
it's one of so
many
and humanity
cannot
get
above these sorts of scenarios. And it's Yeah.
It's confusing.
I mean, as a human being, and I

(15:18):
think
the normal behavior of somebody like me who's
not there, who's not seeing it is like,
I can't look at it anymore. I can't
feel this anymore, but that's the that's the
worst thing we can do. Right? Because then
they do truly become forgotten. And it's trying
to find
a balance
of that energy of, you know, I have

(15:39):
to scream it from the rooftops that these
terrible things are happening,
but also live, live a life. And
again, a luxury.
Right?
You're right. It's very hard
to deal
with rationally because like, especially here in Cairo,
it's right on our border. This genocide is
happening and

(16:01):
we feel helpless.
It's a horrible feeling. It's like, and you're
right. You can't like, we can't complain about
like feeling helpless because we're not living under
bombs and being starved. And
I don't know. It's devastating.
I've met lots of
Amazing Palestinians
from Gaza who have come. Well, they, they
came over before they, they sealed the border

(16:24):
and they're the strongest people. My God, that
I've always found Palestinians remarkable. Like when I
met them in, when I was living in
the west bank, they, they have an incredible
people. And yeah,
my friends here, they, you know, they say
the only way that they can go on
with their lives is to
abandon
any hope of ever returning home and just

(16:45):
like start from scratch, rebuild their lives here,
or hopefully in Europe, somewhere else. I was
thinking about the grand irony of all of
it as well, of the idea of what
Israel was meant to be.
And, and yet now they're doing the same
thing.
It's so and that, that nobody can,
I don't know? There

(17:07):
I have conversations with my dad about this
stuff because, you know, he's, he's Jewish, but
he was raised without religion, culturally Jewish. No
connection to Israel in in the sense other
than
this sort of abstract
that's sort of a a the Jewish people
are told, you know, that's the homeland. That's
the place. Yes. Not truly a homeland because

(17:29):
it's not, it was created for
a refugee
camp in a way, you know, in, in,
in theory
as of refuge
and
that
somehow you become
anti yourself
if you're speaking out against
Yes. Human
fucking rights. It's like, wait. Where where did

(17:51):
that disconnect come from?
And that you can vilify
someone
and say they're against their own people or
religion or whatnot
because they're standing up for human right and
human dignity and human survival.
And that's how fucked we are as a
species. Yeah. That this selfish gene is so

(18:13):
deeply embedded
that we can turn our back on our
brothers and sisters
just because it makes us feel superior and
it's maddening. So that's why talking to somebody
like you is so fascinating for me other
than the fact that obviously I've known you
for a long time and been following your
incredible

(18:33):
life story. Really, it's something.
But to know I I'll get a little
emotional here, but to know that you are
willing to put yourself
in situations
to your own detriment truly
because you understand the importance
of documenting
something that you have zero control over. And
that's gotta be insane.

(18:55):
Yeah. To you know, but you you there's
a you understand how important that is, but
also the futility of it.
Yeah,
absolutely.
I mean, forget it. Like
we've seen
everything we could possibly see, I think in,
in Gaza and the west bank, you know,
you, you, there are videos of

(19:16):
cold blooded murder of women in the street,
you know, and nothing is done, nothing changes.
So it's, it, it is futile really to
just keep telling those stories. No, it doesn't
nothing, nothing changes.
But, but it's still, I mean, I still
am very deeply committed to, you know,
documenting

(19:37):
these crimes against humanity
committed by whoever.
Pick a country.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. America. I mean, in America
America, what is going on? I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know. I am scared to go
to America now. Yeah. Well, they may not
let you in because you know, you're like
a commie.

(19:58):
Yeah.
Oh, God. Socialist.
Oh, my goodness. I know. I mean, also
The UK, you know, like we're not really
the UK government's not even condemning the genocide.
I just, I don't understand what's happening. I,
I can't think
there's probably like

(20:18):
handful of countries who are behaving in a
moral way right now, or an ethical way
towards
this. You know, this is
the conflict of our time. I I don't
know. It's And then you gotta ask, is
it always been this has it always been
this way? And it has. It's always been
this way. You know, there's Bosnian war. There's

(20:39):
the in the the mass side of the
the Bosnian people. And Yeah.
You also
in these spaces,
you capture such beauty.
And
it
this always and I've brought this up before
on the show, but it brings me back
to when I was young and inquire and
we sang

(20:59):
the butterfly, which was music by Charles Davidson,
where he set to music these poems of
children who were in concentration camps. Oh, wow.
And they read these beautiful poems where all
around them, they're noticing, like, the fleas are
dancing instead of biting, you know, or the
the flower growing just outside the wall is
so beautiful or, you know, from a child's

(21:22):
perspective because it's what they they
there's still joy in them. And so we
were these totally graphic, horrific times.
There was beauty in it, and it was
captured by these children's voices. And I see
you doing this as well
and that that juxtaposition
of horror and beauty, and and it's all

(21:43):
tied in together. And
I just, I just find you very special.
And I think that it's such a rare
quality
to be able to walk on that tightrope.
Mhmm.
I don't know how you do it and
then function in society. Yeah. To be honest,
I'd be I

(22:04):
Well, I think I'm, I think deep down,
I'm, I'm an optimist.
And, you know, in these places, when you
see the absolute
worst of humanity,
lots of people say it, and then it's
very true. You really do
often find the very, very best as well.
And that I just, you know, latch onto
those things and remember those things more like

(22:25):
the, the hospitality of people in the middle
of a conflict zone, like during the battle
to oust ISIS from Mosul.
Things were so intense.
And, and then there was like a family
who had,
had managed to keep their home and every
night they would prepare us dinner and like
the next block or two blocks away, there'd
be bombs. And like, then we'd get a

(22:47):
call. Like there's a, you know, counter
attack by ISIS. You need to evacuate or
whatever, but this family.
We would have fun, you know, I guess
you kind of live in the moment more
in, in some regards, you don't know what's
coming next. So the kids would be like,
I want to try a new clothes or,
you know, just, just lovely, lovely moments that

(23:07):
will always stay with me. And then using,
you know, the people who are risking their
lives to help. I mean, I, perhaps I'm
there taking some risk to document, but the
medics,
they are the real heroes.
Those medics blew my mind. I mean,
yeah, I've never seen anything like that. That
really moved me because those are their heroes
and the Iraqis, as well as the, you

(23:28):
know, the international
Americans. It was
thanks to an American hero, Pete Reed, that
I got access to like document the work
of his team. And they, they were doing
incredible things. They never stopped those women, those
guys,
Americans, Australians, young, you know, early twenties.
I can't imagine being so driven and so

(23:51):
qualified at that age to be like
providing
lifesaving
stabilizing,
like, you know, trauma medicine
under fire on the front line in the
middle of a wreck.
And, they just didn't sleep, you know, that
anybody came in, they, they would, as if
they were just going about their day, you
know, gunshot wounds. Okay. We need some chest

(24:11):
seals. Claire, can you get some gauze?
You know, it was, it was
a remarkable time to, to witness their work.
Tell me what it's like to prepare for
one of these excursions. What do you do?
How do you go in? How do you
deal with governments? Do they let you right
away or do they fight you on it?
Iraq was something

(24:32):
very unique, I think, because of the access
we were given. We had very
easy, easy access, really. I mean, so when
I first went to Iraq, I'm a freelancer,
right? So I don't work with a specific
paper.
I'd been contributing at that point, photo essays,
some written articles for Al Jazeera

(24:53):
and some British,
news online newspapers.
So I went to, I was living in
Greece covering refugee crisis, and I had heard
that this offensive had started against ISIS in
Mosul.
So I thought
I'll just go. I probably won't be able
to go near the frontline. I'm not
trained to start with
and I don't have credentials. I don't have,

(25:15):
at that point, I didn't even have a
press ID.
So I thought I would do stories on
the perimeter, you know, like the people displaced
in the displacement camps, the Yazidi women who
had come back, things like that. And so
I went for two weeks and I discovered
that I,
there is you, anybody could go, like you
hire a local fixer and you can basically

(25:37):
go
wherever,
not necessarily wherever you wanted. So they were
checkpoints
and this is where the fixer comes in.
You, we cannot do our jobs without a
good local fixer.
God knows what they say at the checkpoint.
I don't know. I still don't speak Arabic.
The fixer, you know, gets to know,
commanders of specific units within the military, and

(25:58):
then they secure your access to embed with
them
to certain areas. And I don't think there'll
ever be another conflict where
they allowed
such close access. It was really wild, really,
really wild.
Yeah. I mean, lots of journalists did die,
sadly,
because we were moving around in areas that
hadn't been cleared of an exploded

(26:20):
ordinance.
You know, it's, it's awful to say, but
it, it was somehow thrilling, not in
a happy, fun way, but thrilling to have
that kind of access to really see like
what
a war looks like, I guess. However, what
I did find was in the beginning, when
I did start going to the front line
with other journalists, we would, we would go

(26:41):
in a group in one car and then,
you know, find a military unit and then
go forward with them. And I was covering
the, yeah, the, the, the military offensive. And
then what you see is
something somehow sanitized,
you know, you see from one side, cause
you're not seeing the other side, you just
see, you know,
them firing
weapons.

(27:01):
You know, there were bullet bullets
hitting the walls around us. And so it
was a very interesting and important part of
the story, but then I was like, I
need to see the,
the people like the human impact, where are
the people getting caught up in this conflict?
And so that's when
I tried to get a different kind of
access to embed with the team of medics.

(27:22):
And it took a while because the guy,
Pete, Pete, do you know Pete Reed? Is
that a name you've heard of? He, he
was a very good friend. He was a
former Marine American Marine, and he had, an
organization called
global response management. I think it's since changed
its name, but he was killed in Ukraine.
I think it was last year. I had

(27:43):
just seen him anyway. It's devastating. I still
can't believe he's not with us, but he,
he knew the risks, you know? Anyway, he,
he honestly was a true American hero, a
legend of a guy. But anyway, so I
convinced Pete to, he didn't want to take
me, you know, at first. Cause he's like,
we have so many journalists coming and going.
We don't need, we don't need another one.

(28:03):
But anyway, I eventually convinced him to take
me on that. It was a professional
milestone
because, you know, when you go into the
front line for a few hours in the
day, and then you go back to Erbil,
I mean, talk about juxtaposition.
Erbil is a very nice, safe city
in Kurdish, Iraqi Kurdistan,
an hour's drive away was ISIS.

(28:25):
Like we would go, we would go to
the front line, see crazy shit, and then
go back to drink cocktails at a bar
in Erbil.
It's mind blowing. It's very hard to remember
those days and make sense of it. But
then when, when I finally got,
you know, accepted to go in with Pete's
team and I, and then I could do
what I love doing and just be a
fly on the

(28:45):
wall and, you know, cause a lot of
the time nothing happens.
And so then you just, you know, chit
chat with everybody, get to know the context,
got to know the medics who again were,
you know, I thought so highly of still
do. They're amazing. And then, you know, there'd
be periods of
absolute chaos.
Yeah, it gave me a chance to document,

(29:06):
you know, their, their really important work.
Tell me a story of
when you thought, oh, I am not getting
out of this.
But one in particular, one in particular,
there was, there was one time because normally
it's kind of momentary and you think, oh
God, like I might not get out of
this, this, you know, we'd be in the

(29:26):
middle of a gunfight or whatever, but the
adrenaline is so high. You just run and,
and then it's over or whatever or, or
not. But there was one period when,
or one night I remember I called my
brother on the phone and I said that
I might not get out of this. I
don't know. We're a bit stuffed. So we,
I was staying in West Mosul
a few blocks from the front line, let's

(29:48):
say, and we were staying in like an
abandoned mosque. It had been used as what
they call a trauma stabilization
point, like a field hospital.
There was a makeshift room. Everything's abandoned, you
know, it's all blown up and abandoned, but
there was a room where
we would all sleep.
And there were a few members of the
Iraqi special forces
unit protecting us. Anyway, we got a call

(30:09):
from
the U S coalition office, the U S
said coalition office, whatever they called us and
said, there's a counter offensive 60 ISIS guys
have
they've they came across the frontline dressed as
Iraqi military,
and then they started burning stuff. So the,
the officers were like, you need to leave
evacuates.
We tried to evacuate, but we couldn't because

(30:30):
20,000 or something, you know, 20,000.
That's the number they told us. Goodness knows
how many
civilians were also fleeing. So we would have
been stuck in traffic. And we know Americans,
we were such not the only American, but,
you know, with Americans,
we were a too much of a target.
So they said, stay where you are.
We're sending reinforcements, but they couldn't get to
it. Whatever.

(30:51):
Eventually they said that they, they knew that
there was one suicide
bomber in our neighborhood. There was a guy
walking around with a suicide vest.
He heard that there were Americans at this
mosque looking for you. And so everybody started
out, you know, we all got a little
bit frightened at that point because we couldn't
leave. And we were stuck in this.

(31:12):
Mask didn't, you know, no defenses.
We felt like sitting ducks. So that, that
was pretty scary. And the guys,
they said, you know, we'll, we'll do whatever
it takes. We'll fight to the death. I
don't know. So eventually I fell asleep. I
don't know. Maybe your body was probably so
taxed that that was its only defense at
that point.
Like we're just going to conk you out

(31:33):
for a few.
And anyway, then, you know, I woke up
and everything was, they'd killed him. They found
the guy they'd killed him. And then the
next morning they, they called me and said,
you might want to come and see this.
They,
the guy who'd been murdered, they'd strung him
up on a
electricity pole and the residents were beating the

(31:53):
body and stuff. Awful, awful stuff. But you
can imagine
the kind of anger that these, you know,
ISIS had destroyed these people's lives
and tortured them for
how many years was it? Oh my gosh.
I don't remember. I think it was it
four years or two years.
Why can I not remember that two years?
I think they occupied Mosul.

(32:14):
Right. Anyway, they, they turned their lives completely
upside down. So,
you know, a lot of people had lost
loved ones during that time. And
so there's a lot of anger,
but, that's the only time that I can
remember where I thought, I mean, there were
more, but that, that was the one time,
because it, it was a little prolonged. So
I w I wasn't sure.

(32:34):
How do you feel about death and your
own mortality?
I don't know. I mean,
I, I
don't fear
death. I don't think, I mean, I think
in an, in a natural way, like when
I see dead bodies, it doesn't do any,
anything to me. I'm not, I'm not
because they're not my loved ones. Right. When

(32:56):
what really hits me, one of the stories
I did for the Sunday times magazine was
one of the most heartbreaking stories.
We followed
a few different people digging up the bodies
of their family members
just to not to get, death certificates.
Cause they were buried, you know, in a
haste during the battle. And so they were,

(33:16):
they'd had to
exhume the bodies and that was
morbid.
And, you know, so what really hit me
with that is seeing the reaction
of,
you know, the living
to seeing the bodies of their child or
the remains is not bodies left. Really. So
things like that really,
really hurt me, but I don't know my

(33:37):
own death. I mean,
there were definitely times where I was
very well, I don't know. I guess I
was,
I've been more afraid of getting
really badly injured. I think than death. I
mean, if you die, it's, it's over, but
I'm definitely
more risk averse now. I'm not, I'm not
seeking any, any of that stuff, you know?

(34:00):
I don't know.
It's the, there, there's a limit and I'm
not one of these who is chasing
one conflict after another.
If I have the opportunity to go,
I want to go, but I, I, yeah,
I don't know. I also want to like
enjoy my life, you know,
and, and see the beauty and things. And

(34:21):
I don't know. It has to be, there
has to be a balance. I mean, I
had more close calls in Ukraine, to be
honest.
And that, that was, that was pretty scary
because
they were like, you know, missile strikes so
close to us and like that that's gonna
there's, there's just nothing you can do. Like
when you're in the vehicle and you're driving.
I mean, not that there's ever anything much

(34:42):
you can do, but that you can't mitigate
against. You can't do anything against that kind
of risk. Well, and the stories of torture
coming out from people who are captured are
just horrific.
God. Yeah.
Yeah. Dreadful. So, you know, like after I
left
Iraq,
That was, it was 2019.
So I went initially for two weeks.

(35:04):
I did a whole bunch of stories in
those two weeks that I went back to
Greece,
but I couldn't get
Iraq out of my mind. It really got
under my skin. It was,
I love, I mean, I just love the
people and the place very, very much. It
felt like home instantly.
And I felt invested in, you know, in
documenting what was happening and things like that.

(35:24):
So I went back, I ended up staying
two and a half years. And it was,
you
know, One of my favorite places in the
world.
It's,
yeah, it's
under, it's underestimated
how beautiful the rack is. Like it's just
gets tarnished with, you know, a place of
conflict and violence, but it's actually a gorgeous
country with like the most amazing people.

(35:46):
I mean,
pre religious
zealotry,
we're talking about
incredible buildings and culture and music and color
and art
and science and all, all of the things
that let's be honest, hyper religious politicians
want to suppress

(36:08):
people in power,
ruining everything.
And they try to rewrite history. Yeah. So
that when we think of a place like
Iraq,
we think of just rubble and rock
and
conflict
when in fact it has one of, if
not you know, this is the beginning of
things.
This is a place of the beginning of

(36:28):
things. You know, it's it's a rich,
diversely
intellectual
place that has just been
hobbled.
That's why, again, so important to make sure
that the truth of a thing
is louder
than whatever conflict is happening in the moment
or the decade

(36:48):
in some cases.
Do you know, like how many stories I
did in Iraq
and still do that are positive
shows, you know, stories of hope of people
doing wonderful things to support each other.
No
media outlet is ever interested.
Nobody wants a positive story. It's it has

(37:10):
devastated me. I can't get my head around
it. I feel like these are like some
of my best stories. It took me,
I said, I find it very, very difficult.
I mean, I'm, I'm off with like journalism
at the moment, but Humanity trying to survive
in the most inhumane
places
or situations, I should say. It's not the

(37:31):
place. Place has nothing to do with it.
No. It's the situation. And people come up
with the most amazing things. Like,
I mean, the, one of the stories I
did, it was a while ago now, I
guess this year or last year
for Newsweek about equine therapy for
ISIS survivors. I love that story.
I really got into it. Maybe because I

(37:52):
got to ride the horse and he's gorgeous.
But no, I felt like it was it
had a very positive
angle.
And
the woman who the woman who set it
up is Israeli
and Israeli British. And she's just a remarkable
person. I
she blew my mind when I interviewed her.
I I just couldn't.

(38:14):
She would, it was like she was reading
a Hollywood script to me. It was remarkable.
Like I, cause I went to the stables
and it is, it's stunning. Like I've grown
up in stable yards
and barns and, you know, fancy this and
not fancy, whatever this stable yard I've never
seen such a well built

(38:34):
block of stables and like every thing that
these horses need is so carefully
cared for, or it's gorgeous. So I thought
she must be a horsewoman. Like she can't
not be there in such good condition. Everything
is perfect.
It was mind blowing anyway. She, she didn't
know anything about horses
and it was like, they came to her

(38:54):
in a dream.
And then, and then there's so many different
elements to this story. And of course I
couldn't include it in the piece because they
wanted such a limited number of words. But
to me, it like it,
it felt
crushed then, you know, that there was so
many
parts of this story it's as, as interesting
to me, like how it came to be

(39:15):
and how this woman
through, through a dream, through chance, through the
generosity of strangers who donated land. And then
she went to, she went on Instagram and
she's like, where do I get a horse?
What does it, you know, what does a
horse look like? Kind of thing went on
Instagram, found a guy who has horses in
Kurdistan, messaged him. Where can I buy a
horse or a few horses? And he said,

(39:37):
call this guy. And it, and she's called
the guy when he said, meet me here.
She went there. He turned out to be
the.
The sheikh, the, I think, the cousin or
relative of the president of Kurdistan.
She rocks up to this, the stables.
I used to ride at
an international equestrian club. It's beautiful anyway. And
he, she met the sheik and he was

(39:58):
like, so you're not from here. And she
said, no, but I, I live in, she'd
lived like nine years or something in this
village supporting Yazidis.
And he said, well, so you've left your
family to come here. That means I'm obliged
to give you horses.
And then he like gave her these beautiful
horses
and it's just grown and grown and is
transforming people's lives. And like, you know, it's

(40:20):
such a privilege to go and see
the impact that this interaction with horses has
on, these people who have never been close
to a horse before. And that's a perfect
example of everybody
thinking that the Muslim religion is just, you
know, war and turbulence and
pestilence and horror. It's like, no, it's a
there's a it is compelling

(40:42):
you to be a good human and to,
if you are hungry, I will feed you.
If you need something, I will give it
to you.
It's that consciousness
that we in the Judeo Christian world would
say, like, a Christ consciousness or a God
consciousness that they too have a God consciousness
and their religion. And it's like, no, y'all

(41:03):
stop listening to
it's so frustrating.
It's so frustrating
because that ignorance
leads to more
turbulence.
Absolutely.
It's, it's difficult these days. You have to
like almost curate, like who you have
friendly conversations with because it can escalate.

(41:24):
Were you raised in any kind of religion
and do you have faith or has it
waned or gotten stronger in your experience?
No, I,
I was not brought up with any religion.
Some of my closest friends growing up were
religious and I saw
what I thought was quite negative
impacts on their lives. I don't know if

(41:46):
they would agree. I'm sure some of them
would, but no, so I didn't Christian, I
guess, but like not, not religious
whatsoever.
And,
no, I'm still not. I met a journalist
in Iraq,
Joao, and he he's Brazilian. And he told
me this Brazilian say he said, in Brazil,
we say that I'm gonna mess this up
now.

(42:07):
God believes in
love and faith.
And the devil was jealous, so he created
marriage and religion.
I like that. You know, and they like
they say, the only thing wrong with faith
is religion.
I don't,
I, I'm not a huge believer in organized
religion. I think it gives a lot of
people purpose and a sense of community, and

(42:27):
that's terrific. And I fully respect it. My
husband, my husband is
a very practicing Muslim.
He's a practicing very faithful Muslim, very spiritual.
It's a personal thing. And like, I love
it. I think it means so much as
beauty. It's a beautiful thing. It doesn't affect
me at all. You know, I would say
I'm agnostic. Right. So, I mean, yeah, I

(42:48):
believe there's something bigger than us. I don't
know what it is. I'm definitely not going
to
pray
necessarily. I don't know. I, that's what I
like about going to
different cultures as well as learning about their,
you know, there's such a wide variety of,
of
faith systems, belief systems,
and a lot of it has

(43:09):
massively
negative
dogmatic implications like Ghana, you know, like because
of their deep rooted superstitions
and beliefs and spirit. Like, so then women
just get cast out as witches and I
have to go and live in exile for
their entire lives.
So.
I don't know.
I don't, it's not religion. That's at fault.

(43:30):
It's just people, isn't it? People, people will
do bad things no matter, no matter what
religion or faith, whatever, or where they're from.
Yes. And again, I think religion does serve
its purpose. People need a guidepost. Some people
need that guidepost.
Yes. Why is it that man is constantly
trying to make God in man's image? Mhmm.

(43:50):
Yeah. That's what it feels like.
Yeah. Interesting.
We don't get to give something omnipotence and
then take it away and manipulate it based
on our biases. And
it just it's so
I don't know. It's hard to be a
human being. I get it, but
it's
I don't know, it's

(44:11):
I struggle sometimes with with hopelessness,
of of existence
is sort of
it's not even I think it's past sorrow.
It's just this,
maybe resignation is the right word, but then
I get mad at myself. It's like, oh
God, don't, don't go there.

(44:32):
Do you know? I mean, is that something
recent or is that something you've dealt with
for a long time?
I think
when I got to the age of truly
understanding
how humans behave
and the more I see it, the less
I feel like
I am in the species.
Yeah. It doesn't it doesn't make sense to

(44:54):
me.
And then, you know, I read I mentioned
Selfish Gene. I read that book
and I was like, yeah, I get it
biologically,
you know, I get it. In the human
and animal kingdom, these things are alive and
well. I suppose plants
v for
supremacy
to get the most water and nutrient and
sun. Like, I get it.

(45:14):
I get the concept of it, but it
just, it fucking bums me out, you know?
Yeah. I know what you mean.
That's what, that's what I, I need
nature for me. The nature is healing, like
just to get the hell out of everywhere
and go for a walk in the countryside.
And I don't know. I do find that

(45:35):
that helps me. But I, I can relate.
I, I get what you mean. It's, it's
like, everybody's
gone a bit mad in the world and
Mad. Humanity doesn't matter anymore. Yeah. I'm sort
of,
you know, going off the rails a little
bit, but I think because you have seen
so much
and the beauty of it all and the
horrors of it all.

(45:56):
And I am, you know, an armchair quarterback
watching it from
the video screens and things and just
I tried desperate. I watch a lot of
animal videos Yes. A lot of dog
stuff because that's such a pure love. And
then I catch myself getting mad at things
or, you know, frustrated and
and at people. And then I think, oh,

(46:17):
there you're slipping into it. When where is
that line where you start to become the
thing that you abhor the most
because you don't know, because you,
you, you don't have a box for it
anymore. And it starts to deep out into
your
life. I struggle with that sometimes.
Yeah. Yeah.
There was a time
right before I left Iraq, I was having

(46:39):
anger issues.
And, a friend of mine with this guy
McKean,
he was a fixer. I worked with a
lot, brilliant guy. And he used to be
like, man, you've got, got some anger issues.
You need to go and take a break.
And I would get my, I remember one
day. Oh God, it's mortifying.
So there was a horse club, the equestrian
club, and I would go and take pictures

(47:00):
for them of their events, the racing and
the show jumping. And they would let me
ride whenever I wanted for free. And it's
a very fancy club and they'd have security
guards, you know, to protect the horses they
imported from Hungary. Beautiful, beautiful horses. And I
wanted one day to give an apple to
my horse that I had just written and
security card wouldn't let me.
And I got really,
irrationally

(47:20):
mad, irrationally mad.
Thank God McKean wouldn't translate what I was
saying to the guy.
But I knew then that like some something's
off here. Like I need to
shake things up a bit. So I, you
know, eventually I did then shortly after
Lee leave Iraq and try to do something
completely different. And that's where I started going
to Mongolia. And it is nice to go

(47:42):
somewhere where, you know, they, they're not as
aware
of all of these terrible things happening in
the world. Their lives are a little,
a little simpler for, you know, for some
of the people, of course, in the city,
they're very well connected and they are connected.
They're aware, you know, even in the, these
remote rural areas, you see the kids doing
TikTok dances,
you know,

(48:02):
we're out in the Siberian
forest. Like, how have you, how do you
know these dances?
But, you know, of course they're still in
the twenty first century with us, but it
is nice. They're not, you know, their lives
are not dominated by it. They're so far
removed from conflict
that it it's a real,
it's a real escape.

(48:22):
It's nice.
And maybe that is the luxury of having
lived in a country
like America where shit goes down, but it
doesn't it was it was never at such
the fever pitch that it's at now where
people are really getting hurt and and we
are forced we're forced out of our nativity,
I guess, and our our

(48:44):
comfort and all the things that
America
was able to again, that sort of armchair
watching from afar.
We have obviously a civil rights movie. It's
the decimation of indigenous peoples.
We have our own bloodbath that we've have
dealt with. But in general,
it's been a pretty comfy ride for most

(49:06):
of us. And it it's really interesting now
to have it just
like, oh, it's come, it's come home to
roost.
And now we've got to deal with this
stuff. And
you mentioned the fact that, you know, if
it bleeds, it leads the news news
wants to have all the horror and none
of the joy. And I think

(49:26):
that
that, like you were saying, you were getting
very angry, and I find myself as well
getting angry.
We're being trained to live in a state
of anger and fear. We are being fed
it nonstop
because
I think maybe that's a a power play
in some conspiratorial
thought process I have. It's like, oh, well,

(49:49):
if you
if you make us all if the powers
that be that control media and story and
what we hear and see,
keep us at the state of frenzy
and sorrow and anger and and,
taxed adrenals,
then that is how we're gonna move through
the world. And that serves its purpose because
then everything is a fight.

(50:11):
Everything becomes,
a fisticuff. And
and that's in a way, I think
the powers that be, it sounds like a
loony thing to say, but I think they
freaking love it. They love it. Oh, dear.
Yeah. Of course. Because it makes them not
look so bad, maybe, or it's a they
that gives them the power to come in

(50:31):
and swoop in and be like, I'm gonna
control this. It's gotten out of hand when
they're feeding this
machine. You know, we're taking the pill. We're
taking the the horror pill nonstop
twenty four seven with these news cycles. And
Yeah. Again, I'm going off the rails, but
No. It's interesting. Working it out in real
time.
Yes.

(50:53):
No. It's
it's it's a dark time. You know, the
only thing that I find
I sometimes have to do this now. And
a friend of mine, he he said it
to me that he it helped. He was
like, don't feel guilty about taking a break
from the news.
Something like that. And, and I do, I
have to just. Because it's every, but I
mean, that's a luxury and that's a privilege.

(51:14):
And then I feel like an asshole for
this. I know.
I know. I know.
I know. But like, I, this is my
theory.
Oh my God. I can't believe I'm going
to say this, but there's a, I met
a guy once who told me this philosophy.
He said it, I, I might've been drunk
and I might've remembered this wrong, but it's
resonated with me in Mali

(51:35):
years ago in like
a Christian missionary hostel roasting. And I met
an old Irish guy. If my met this
was 2009 or something, it was a long
time ago. And we were having a conversation
about like how difficult it is to like,
be a person of such good fortune and,
you know, privilege
visiting such an impoverished country and seeing

(51:55):
so much poverty and not, not really being
in a position to help much. I don't
know. I, I found it quite strange being
a tourist and in West Africa after I
finished my volunteer project, I, you you know,
I traveled through a few countries anyway, and
he,
he told me about the Japanese wet stone
philosophy.
I don't know. I can't believe I remember
this, but it just resonated with me. And

(52:16):
basically he was describing like, imagine a stone.
When you, if you pour water in a
stone, if it rains, the stone gets covered
in water, but the water never penetrates it.
If it penetrates it, it breaks. He's like,
you have to be like the wet stone.
You know, you, you, you witness these things
and you feel the emotion, but you don't
let it so deep inside that it breaks
you.

(52:36):
I don't know. It stuck with me. Yeah.
That's great. I love that.
Yeah. I love that. What's next for you?
What's coming?
A few things. I have my first book
coming out. My first photo book. Yeah. I'm
very excited. It's been many years in the
making, but you know, you've never realized it
at the time. Like I was frustrated with,
you know, it didn't get published originally when

(52:58):
it's supposed to, but thank goodness it didn't
because, you know, it's only this year that
I got the content that I think completes
it. So I'm very happy with the timing
working on that should be coming out for
pre orders very soon. It's called Altai
hunters and herders of Mongolia. So it's a
photo book with pictures and text, mostly pictures

(53:18):
of course, but I've written some chapters about,
so chapter introductions about the lifestyle and the
culture of the Kazakh Eagle hunters. Not just
about
this ancient tradition of Eagle hunting, but also,
you know, their relationship with horses, which of
course is the reason I went there in
the first place. They're very, they were very
close, very interesting relationship with horses, not grounded

(53:41):
in, you know,
affection. Like, like I grew up, you know,
being around horses and I want to pet
them and kiss them and, and play with
them and have fun. No, for them it's
like, it's a respect. They treat them very
well, but they're not, they don't even necessarily
give them names. I don't know. It's very
interesting.
And of course then their herding lifestyle and
their home inside the homes is very, is

(54:03):
very beautiful. And it's such, again, it's just
such a privilege to be
able to enter these people's homes and
learn about their life and they welcome you
so warmly.
So, you know, I, I, you probably know
that I started doing photo tours in this
part of the world
and I love doing it. And some, one
of my first guests

(54:24):
was
a former guest at the ranch.
So I, I knew I met her in
02/2006. She was a guest while I was
wrangling there and she joined me last year
and it was wonderful.
Talk a little bit about what you do
for that.
So basically I take small groups, maximum six
people,
and then we go, it's a photo tour,
but a lot of people come are not

(54:46):
that interested in photography. They just want this.
What I offer is like a very culturally
immersive, very authentic
trip where it's, you know, quite far off
the beaten path. It's not a tourist thing.
We go, it's like we're going on a
joint
photography assignment.
And then I, I teach, you know, some

(55:07):
things about visual storytelling
and technical stuff to do with photography.
We go and visit these families basically. And
it's, you know, it's a flexible schedule. We
travel around. We just see all these beautiful
parts of the, well, I offer a few
different tours. So Western Mongolia with the Kazakh
Eagle Hunters, which is my most popular tour.
It's really nice. You know, we stay, we

(55:29):
stay with the families. We,
nothing is staged. Nothing is posed. We just
are there like
documentary makers. We're just, you know, having an
insight into their way of life. We have
a lot of fun. We, you know, we
play with the kids, we ride the horse
as much as you want. And then of
course, you know, we ride out with them
and they're training the Eagles. So it's, yeah,
it's, it's a really, it's just a really

(55:50):
nice thing to do.
It takes me back to the ranch, you
know, where
we were guiding rides and working with the
animals. I just love being out there and
it's, it's not a necessarily
super comfortable,
you know, there's not, there aren't
that many
modern amenities. Of course we live like they
live. There's no bathroom. There's just, you know,

(56:13):
no toilets, just a long drop outside
nature. Nature's toilet is beautiful.
No limited power. And then we all sleep
in one small room and when the family's
home on the floor,
it's kind of like indoor camping, but you
kind of, you know, our rhythm goes with
the rhythm of what the families are doing.
So it's, it's, it's really
quite immersive, but in a beautiful way. And

(56:35):
the families I've built a relationship with them
over the years. I go back obviously to
the same families.
And I, when I go to these places,
I always feel like I don't want to
be here alone. I want to share this
with people. You know, other people should have
the chance to see and experience these, these
magical moments.
And so that's when I decided to start

(56:56):
offering
these trips. And also it's a huge support
for the families.
You know, they, of course we, we pay
them for hosting us and it's,
it's something good for them and they really
enjoy it to do it. They love to
show off their culture. You know, they're proud
of it. They're enormously proud of their culture.
So it's, it's, it's, it's an honor to

(57:17):
be able to keep going back there. And
I think I'll always go back to Mongolia.
So we do. I also am running a
tour in the Gobi Desert. So
that's
equally interesting, but
vastly different from the, the, the trip in
the, in Western Mongolia, but everybody has to
learn a TikTok dance no matter where.
That's a good plan. Oh God.

(57:38):
We've got to take some booze then.
I think it's so important to immerse in
other cultures. It's the only way it's going
to be the only way we can fight
back against
even the language I use fight, it's the
only way we can
take back humanity,
you know,
get it righted again.

(57:59):
Tell people how they can find you on
the wilds of the world.
Oh, thank you. So my, my
website
is www.clairethomasphotography.com
and I'm on Instagram, claire
thomasphotography.
That on Instagram, I I'm mostly active. I

(58:19):
mean, you can find, I, I use, well,
I used to use Twitter, but not so
much. I can't. Yeah. I actually started posting
on threads. I mean, it's the same.
Yeah. I think Instagram and threads are pretty
much the same thing. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. But yeah, there's lots of information. All
my contact information is on my website and

(58:40):
I'll be posting mostly on Instagram about my
upcoming book. So there'll be a link to
the publisher
publisher's website for pre orders. And I really
hope people pre order it. I'm very excited
about the book. Yeah. And I'll put links
on, Hey, humanpodcast.com.
So that's easy to find
stuff so they don't have to try and
remember. They can just go and see all
the things at once.

(59:00):
You're amazing. You're amazing.
It's such a joy to reconnect with you.
Honestly, I follow you on social media and
it just, it's almost a relief to know
that there's like, like minded people out there,
you know,
this world, this insane world and I see
your post and it, it just, it brings
me comfort. Let's say, thank you. It's wonderful.

(59:23):
I love it. I feel the same about
you. And, and we are, there's lots, there's
lots of, there's lots of hope. I,
I know I go off the rails. I
think sometimes my body just has to release
it like,
like a steam
release. Yeah. I do know that there is
more good and there's more hope and there's
more joy and love.

(59:43):
I know it exists.
I know it's everywhere. And I appreciate
that
people like you can capture it so that
to help us remember to take pictures of
it. And
but also, you know, the sound of my
voice, you know, the as Claire mentioned,
sometimes we just need to go, you know,
touch a tree or a dog or a

(01:00:03):
horse or whatever it is. We can't give
up. I'm talking to myself more than anything.
We can't give we can't
let it get the best of who we
are. People are good.
Yeah. Yeah.
Thank you so much, Claire.
Thank you, Susan. This is such a pleasure.
Let's keep in touch. Yeah, absolutely. We'll go

(01:00:25):
ride a horse somewhere. Yes. Thank you for
listening, everybody.
Bye.
Bye.
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