July 28, 2025 • 55 mins
What if your story of suffering isn’t disqualifying—but the very space where Jesus meets you? In this powerful and grace-soaked episode of Hey Tabi, I sit down with the one and only Elyse Fitzpatrick - author, counselor, and fierce advocate for the unloved and unseen.
We dive deep into:
- Why the gospel is more than behavior modification
- How the church has mishandled women’s stories
- The truth about Gomer, identity, and self-destruction
- How legalism sneaks into our hearts, even when we know better
- Why trauma-informed theology matters
- Holding both grace and truth in messy, beautiful tension
Elyse also shares the story behind her new book Unloved: The Rejected Saints God Calls Beloved, and we talk about what it means to find hope when life hasn’t turned out the way you were promised it would.
This one’s for every woman who wonders if she’s too broken, too messy, or too far gone. Spoiler alert: you’re not. Jesus sees you—and He calls you beloved.
👇 LINKS & RESOURCES
Find Elyse here - https://elysefitzpatrick.com/
Order Unloved by Elyse Fitzpatrick here - https://elysefitzpatrick.com/book/unloved-the-rejected-saints-god-calls-beloved/
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com
💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
📲 The Journey & The Process Instagram - www.instagram.com/_tjatp
Subscribe to my YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there
👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!
🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
Need to know how to find a great therapist? Read this...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist.
But I'm not your traumatherapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof hey Trabi.
I am so, so excited to be herewith my very amazing and
(00:45):
beautiful friend, eliseFitzpatrick.
If you don't know who Elise is,you have been living under a
rock and I am so glad you'regetting to meet her today.
But I'm going to tell you alittle bit about her.
Elise holds a certificate inbiblical counseling from the
CCEF of San Diego and she has amaster's of arts in biblical
counseling from TrinityTheological Seminary.
She's authored more than 25books on daily living and the
(01:09):
Christian life.
Elise loves to proclaim thegood news of the gospel that
Jesus, the second person of theTrinity, perfectly obeyed all
the law in our place, sufferedin isolation and agony as
punishment for our sin, died andthen rose again for our
justification.
A frequent speaker at nationalconferences, she lives in
Southern California with herhusband of over 50 years and has
(01:31):
three adult children and sixreally adorable grandchildren,
which is amazing, and I thinkthe adorable grandchildren are
probably the best, as I'mgetting closer and closer to
grandmother age myself.
I got a ways to go, but that'smy next step of adulting, I
guess.
So welcome, elise, thank youfor being here.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thank you, tabitha, it's an honor.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I got to meet you for the first time, gosh it's been
probably four-ish years at thispoint and I remember that my
first exposure to you in person,in the flesh.
I knew who you were because Igrew up in the Calvary Chapel
denomination that says it's nota denomination but it's 100% a
denomination, absolutely.
and you were honor approvedreading list at the time and so
(02:17):
probably not anymore but anywaybut I had knew you from that and
so I was like man, she's like abiblical counselor and I didn't
know much about you other thanthe things I had read.
And so to hear you from thestage at the call to Pete's
conference that first year, Iwas like, oh my gosh, I need to
(02:40):
be her friend.
And I very much walked up toyou right afterwards and said hi
, I'm Tabitha, we're going tomeet Brian.
And you were like I said yeahand then gave me a big hug and I
was like I knew I liked her andfrom that, just listening and
watching and following along thelast several years and hearing
what the Lord has laid on yourheart has been such a gift and
(03:01):
delight.
I know it has formed me and myfaith in deep ways and I know
it's formed the faith of so manyothers in deep ways.
Tell me a bit about yourjourney, because you were an OG
biblical counselor.
You've been around a while.
20 Side Books is definitely aminute.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Walk us through that, thanks.
Thank you, tavia, I'm so gladto be here.
Yeah, got saved in 1971, sortof in the whole Calvary Chapel
beginning movement right and Icame out of a really debauched
lifestyle, got saved, went toBible college.
(03:40):
People used to come to me forhelp.
I didn't know what to say.
So I eventually got a master'sdegree in biblical counseling,
thinking that was going to behelpful.
At some point along in there Iwant to say maybe the early
2000s or perhaps a littleearlier I really made a turn
(04:03):
toward seeing the gospel assomething that needed to inform
my life every day.
And that sounds weird because Ihad already been saved for
decades and was already servingthe Lord.
But I really saw how the gospel, the work of Jesus Christ, of
(04:30):
Jesus Christ, how that needed tobe central.
So that began to inform my life.
And then since then, everythingI've written has to do with how
does the gospel affect ourlives in certain realms, like in
our parenting or in counseling,or as women.
How does the gospel affect ourlives?
How does it affect our lives inour relationships with others?
(04:52):
How does the gospel speak to usas people who live in a very
broken world?
And how does the gospel speakto the way we think about the
women of the Bible, the womenaround us, roles of women.
It was really a transformationthat happened in me after I got
saved, after I had a degree inbiblical counseling, that I
(05:16):
began to see the gospel as beingparamount.
And then I would say reallyover, let's say the last five or
six years since Eric Shoemakerand I wrote Worthy I had always
let's say that I had alwayswanted because I am a woman, I
(05:38):
had wanted to highlight womenand minister to women.
You know what?
I'm going to take that back,leave it in, because I want
people to hear now how I want tore-say that For a long time I
tried to form myself into whatthe male majority culture of the
(06:05):
church wanted me to be and then, but then I've been making a
change and I've the changereally became very obvious when
we wrote Worthy and I began tosee as a Christian woman.
(06:27):
I began to see how prominentthe stories of women were in
Scripture, how important womenwere to the Lord and to the
narrative of the gospel.
So then I've been on thattrajectory for five or six years
(06:49):
, really wanting to speak towomen about their value, about
how beloved they are as women,because they are women.
I wanted to speak to that, andof course, that leads you into
(07:12):
the way women are being treated.
So maybe this is more than youwant, but when Worthy came out,
that was about the time of MeToo, and Church Too.
Worthy came out.
That was about the time of MeToo, and Church Too, and I
(07:44):
posted how I had been date rapedand how I had been sexually
assaulted at a, a intellectualexercise about the worth of
women and how women aredenigrated and how they need to
be supported.
This is my story too.
This is my story too, and Iremember my eldest grandson.
(08:07):
At the time when I posted thathe's in his twenties.
He emailed me and he said, mimi, I'm I'm so sorry that happened
to you and I thought I'm sosorry.
You have to know it, but he doeshave to know it.
(08:28):
He has to know it that this iswhat women face.
So I want to be an advocate forthe marginalized, those without
power, people who aresystemically abused, women and,
(08:50):
of course, other marginalizedpeople.
That's the trajectory I'm onand I made a little joke about.
Well, I may not be on theirlist anymore of recommended
resources because people don'tlike it, and you already know
this.
People don't like it when youcall them out.
(09:10):
People in power don't like itwhen you call them out and tell
them no, what you're doing iswrong.
And even in the writing of thebook Worthy, all we were trying
to do was say women have valueand we were canceled all over
(09:31):
the place.
So that's the state of to womenand cares deeply about women
who have been in abusivesituations.
(09:52):
So I'm really happy that I'mthere now, but I haven't always
been there and it's been painful.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, it's always interesting to me when people in
positions of power get upsetabout saying Jesus loves women
and not all people.
Because, I want to be clear,both you and I are not men
haters by any means at all.
Absolutely not.
I think that calling outdestructive power structures is
(10:23):
actually love.
Jesus did that.
Those are the things he said tothe Pharisee.
Those are the things he said tothe people in leadership what
are you doing?
And it was an invitation torepentance and we are called to
do that.
In scripture, we are called tosay this does not align with the
word of God, what is happening.
And it is an invitation to thebrothers and sisters who are
(10:46):
walking in a way that does notlook like Christ.
I was listening recently toRachel Denhollander on a podcast
and Rachel is fierce and feistyand beautiful in so many
wonderful ways and she wastalking about how she had been
all of the things that she wassupposed to be.
And it still wasn't enough,because she was using her voice.
(11:08):
He was talking about things,just calling out problems in the
power structures and sayingthis is not the way that it
should be and that was a problem.
And it was a problem mainlybecause she was a woman and
that's unfortunate because thatisn't what scripture shows in
any way.
In fact, Jesus is equalizer ofwomen in a lot of ways.
(11:29):
Talking to this American woman,this is a lot of what you have
in your book Unloved, which isyour most recent book, and I
love this book called Unloved.
It's wonderful and whatinspired you to write this book
at this time?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Thank you.
Thank you, tabitha.
So Unloved, the rejected saintsGod calls beloved.
I always have to say thatbecause, as an author, you get
people, the publisher gives youa subtitle and I never can
remember what they are.
So that's the subtitle.
(12:09):
So why I wrote it?
I wrote it for two reasons.
I wrote it first of all,because I'm sick to death.
Sick to death of hearingwomen's stories in the Bible
(12:31):
being told by men who have acertain perspective that I would
disagree with.
So I wanted to tell theirstories, and I wanted to tell
them in a way that was faithfulto Scripture but also would show
that they were in fact belovedby God, even though a lot of
their life looked like it wasfalling apart.
So that was the first impetus.
(12:55):
The second was this that so manyChristian women feel like
Christianity is a meritocracy.
Women feel like Christianity isa meritocracy, and what I mean
by that is they feel like ifthey could just be good enough,
if they could just do all thethings perfectly enough, if they
(13:16):
could just oh I hate this besubmissive enough, that somehow
their life would be good.
It would look like someInstagram post and see,
christianity is not ameritocracy.
We don't earn blessing from God.
(13:39):
God, in his grace, blesses usbecause of the work that Jesus
Christ has done, so it'sactually Jesus' merits become
the way we receive God'sblessing, not because we're
working hard.
So I really was trying to pushagainst two things that again
(14:03):
that I think are just rife inAmerican evangelicalism.
First, the first thing istelling the stories of the women
.
Men telling the stories of thewomen in now I want to rephrase
that, because some women do ittoo People in power telling the
(14:26):
stories of women in a way thatis not faithful to Scripture.
And then, secondly, theundergirding sort of feeling
that women have been told.
If you would just blank enough,your life would be great, and
(14:47):
that's not the story that weread in Scripture at all.
The story we read in Scriptureis that faithful people suffer
and, as I'm sure all of thepeople who listen to this and as
I'm sure all of the people wholisten to this, there's an area
of suffering in your life.
And don't think that.
(15:09):
Don't automatically think that,okay, this is something I'm
done and God's punishing me andif I just work harder I can earn
more merit and be better.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Jesus Christ earned all the merit we need?
Yes, absolutely, and I thinkeven in the Old Testament we see
that play out in the book ofJob.
Job is like what in the actualheck is going on here, exactly,
and his dingbat friends are allthere going well, perhaps you
have sinned and at the end Godgoes.
Job is the one who spokerightly of me, not his dingbat
friends and dingbat friends.
You need to take somesacrifices and have joe pray for
(15:45):
you, because y'all did not getit, and I think that is such a
vital thing.
We have a very much.
I don't want to put thisamericanized version of
christianity, I think, and weabsolutely push against
(16:07):
suffering in favor of comfortand things like that, and
comfort is not a bad thing.
You know, none of these thingsare bad things.
I think tim keller would callthem source idols and it hits
the counterfeit god.
And none of these things are badthey're not wicked but when
they are more important thanactual life, we cannot get away
(16:30):
from life being lifey.
At times it is what it is, andI remember you speaking about
this meritocracy at a retreatthat I was at and I ended up.
We were talking beforehand.
I was like dude, I had to putthis in a note and send it to my
therapist because I was likethis is going to be a session
and it was because I didn'trealize, from some of the
(16:52):
spiritual abuse I had endured inchurches, that I had drunk in
this theology that I had to earn, Even though my brain knows I
read the book of Galatians.
I love the book of Galatians.
Yeah, foolish Galatians who it'sbewitched.
You, having begun in the spirit, are you trying to keep on
going in the blood Like?
I believe that?
But in my own soul I was like,well, I'm struggling, things are
(17:17):
hard, it must be me, and thereality is, life is lifey.
And one of the quotes I pulledfrom that was there may be a
measure of peace and freedom,but it may not work out as we
want, as we serve the Lord.
And I thought that was just soprofound because I don't know
that we always believe that.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Right and you know we can say as good Protestants we
don't think we earn oursalvation, that it's a gift from
God.
So we can say that andintellectually assent to it if
you will.
Yeah, I agree.
(17:58):
But then the way we live outour lives is this sort of
feeling that if I was justbetter, I could get more
blessing from God.
And to have it you just, yousee it everywhere.
(18:18):
I mean non-stop in books andpodcasts, not this one.
Books and podcasts andconferences, you know, and
sermons.
If you want to have a happylife, do these six things Well,
in a sense like knowing thatyou're living in a way that is
(18:41):
consistent with your realidentity as a child of God.
That does bring a sense ofblessing and happiness, knowing
that you're living in a way thatreflects who you really are.
But on the other hand, theBible's full of people who were
(19:03):
serving God and had reallyterrible lives.
I mean Isaiah, or was itJeremiah, I don't remember Got
thrown into the sewer.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
That was Jeremiah.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Jeremiah.
I mean Jesus ended up on across.
Yeah, jesus ended up on a cross.
Yeah, Almost all of theapostles died martyrs' deaths.
So let's not think that becausewe're living in a way that's
consistent with our trueidentity, which is I am loved by
(19:40):
God, let's not think that ifI'm living consistently, that
automatically means that I'mgoing to have this American
comfort thing.
Now, tabby, you and I knowthat's true and we can say it,
but then when the sky falls,then we think what did I do?
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, I think that's where really good, solid,
trauma-informed, not legalisticbiblical community is such a
vital gift, because we needpeople to come around us when it
all hits the fan to say you areso loved.
(20:28):
I don't have answers here, andwe do try to circumvent and
spiritually bypass, becauseother people's pain hit, pain in
us and make us uncomfortableand so we're like let me slap a
verse on that which is unhelpful.
Unless the verse is, I'm goingto sit with you and wail no,
which I don't know.
That there's an exact verse, Ithink, probably something closer
(20:48):
than the psalms, but that issomething that we just don't do.
Well, we don't sit with folkswho are struggling.
Now, obviously, if we canprovide a practical you know
support, if we can help someoneget out of oppression, of course
we want to do that of you, wantto come alongside practically,
but there are things that willnot be healed in our lifetime
(21:10):
and you say it so well inUnloved.
I'm going to actually read it.
It's when you are talking aboutGomer, and what I love is that
you talk about Gomer and she isin the book of Hosea.
Hosea was actually a formativebook for me when I was getting
out of abuse, which is wildbecause at the time, a jillion
(21:31):
years ago now, I was like whoreads Hosea?
Like?
And the Lord kept bringing meback to Hosea and I'm like why?
Why are we here, jesus?
I do not understand.
Until we got to chapter six andin verses one through three he
says I am going to destroy yourlife, but I will rebuild it as
sure as the rains come in thespring.
That's the summarization ofthose verses.
(21:51):
And I remember sitting on my bedknowing implicitly God said I
am taking your marriage becauseit is unwell and you are in
danger, and I promise you I willrebuild your life.
And I just remember thinking,thinking I do not want this word
, I'm not enjoying, do not love.
But it was so strong in me Icouldn't step away from it.
(22:14):
I knew what was coming and it'sGod's mercy that I knew it was
coming because he already saidhe'd be with me and I watched
him do that as I escaped a verydangerous situation.
But I look at how we have talkedabout in the church Gomer and
how we have maybe misunderstoodwhat her life might have been
like and the things that youbring up about her are just so
(22:36):
tender and kind and to me reallyspeak to the heart of Jesus in
that.
And one of the things that youtalk about in terms of her
self-destructive, because shekept going back to prostitution,
which also is a lot like ourown hearts.
You say turning fromself-destructive habits for the
life that welcomes and rests inthe Lord's love may take a
(22:57):
lifetime.
Sometimes we never knowcomplete release from them, and
as a therapist who walks withpeople through exiting
destruction, exiting their ownresponses to destruction, I see
this all the time that it is sohard, when we've had such deep
trauma, to walk differently andrest feels unsafe because you
(23:20):
don't know it, and so I justlove the tenderness that you say
hey, god's still with you, butthere may still be struggles.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yes, and you know, when you look at the life of
somebody like Gomer andbasically for whomever might be
listening to this that doesn'tknow the story, hosea is a
prophet.
God tells him to marry aprostitute.
The prostitute is Gomer.
He marries her and he is afaithful husband to her, but she
(23:52):
leaves him and goes back intoher life of prostitution.
He buys her back out of thatand you know, we never see a
time in her life where she'scompletely free.
You know, she certainly alwayscarried her reputation within
(24:16):
the village where she was.
But also when you think about aperson who struggles like she
did and you think, why would shedo that?
Why would she go back to that?
I think the way it would havebeen spun in the past by people
who got to tell the history.
(24:38):
You know, oh well, she's just aslut.
We're just going to slut shameher Instead of saying what is it
in the heart of Gomer thatmakes her feel like this life of
being used and abused in thisway is where is her identity?
(25:05):
I have a problem believing thatthere's any little girl in the
world who, when she's six orseven years old, perhaps she's
already been abused, butassuming she is not, who says
when I grow up, I hope I get tobe a prostitute.
Nobody thinks that.
You think that because you havebeen made to believe that
(25:33):
that's what you deserve, thatthat's your true identity and
that Tabitha is what's soimportant.
And I think, really, how thechurch has missed it in not
talking about our identity inChrist and instead saying do
(25:55):
these things and you'll have thehappy identity of an Instagram
post.
So Gomer is beloved.
Beloved.
God calls her beloved.
See, because he sees beyondthis outward, he sees her heart
(26:17):
and he knows her story.
And that's what we have tostart doing is saying I want to
see the story, but not only do Iwant to see the story.
I want God to help me and tohelp every woman I speak to
understand what it is to havethe identity of Jesus Christ, To
(26:44):
be completely forgiven and tobe counted completely righteous,
completely obedient, yeah, tobe adopted and loved and
welcomed at the table.
That's what I want.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
And again we can say yes and amen but then we got to
fight that because we are all ofus by nature legalists.
I know that there are people inthe survivor community that
struggle with folks knowing thatpeople are caught in legalism
and stuck in that place, and Iget that.
But I do want to say we allhave that bent and we can be
(27:29):
legalistic on multiple sides.
I always pray to the Lord.
I never want to become thatwhich I wore against, and it's
always right there for us ifwe're not careful.
And I also think that forleadership it is so vital to ask
the question what makes thismake sense?
It's a therapy question I askall the time and it doesn't mean
(27:52):
that I want people to stay indestructive places, by no means.
But I really have to start withhow did we get here?
And I've had multiple pastorsover years of working with women
.
If a woman is caught ininfidelity or admits to
infidelity, then they refer toher as an adulteress.
And when I sit with them and Ihear their story of childhood
(28:16):
trauma, their story of domesticabuse and coercive control, and
I hear how desperate they are tobe loved.
And then some man comes inwhile they are separated from
their husband or what have you,and they give them care and
kindness.
So they might be a freakingpredator, but they give them
what feels like goodness andlove and they go to it like a
(28:36):
moth to a flame.
And when you say, what is shetrying to get from this?
What is happening for her?
Is she trying to get from thiswhat is happening for her?
Then you can dive deeper and say, oh, there's a very real need
here that did not get metbecause she has been so unloved.
And let's talk about how, first, god can fill that need and how
(29:00):
she can learn to have healthycommunity.
That fills that need.
That isn't necessarily anadulterous relationship, right,
because we can have non-sexualintimacy with lots of people in
beautiful ways that are verylife-giving and biblically
oriented and not sloppy agape,if you will.
And that is something I justlong for leaders to have.
They give that goodness oftento men because they will have
(29:23):
men's groups for men who havestruggled with sex addiction or
compulsive sexual behaviors.
They do not have in-kindwomen's groups.
Almost anywhere there's a few,but nobody ever says why is this
a struggle?
Why, what happens to you?
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Yeah, yes, what happened to you?
I was talking with a goodfriend of mine the other day and
she was talking about arelative of hers that every so
often she just goes off therails, and I mean she goes off
the rails in big ways.
And my friend asked me.
(30:02):
She said why would she do this?
She'd put her life backtogether again.
And now here she is relivingthis same destruction.
It's because she thinks that'sher identity, that's who she is,
that's what she deserves andthat's something that has been
(30:26):
ingrained in her so that shedoesn't think of herself as,
let's say, Elise the righteous,beloved one of God.
She thinks of herself as Elisethe slut.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
I think what pastors and leaders at times don't
understand is that to change youmust experience yourself
differently first, and so I canhave an intellectual theology
that knows all of the systematictheology I can walk you right
through it.
My functional theology when Iactually live out might look a
(31:00):
lot different.
Right, and if you are willingto take the time and disentangle
, then you can start ferretingthat out.
One of the things that I hearoften is connection precedes
correction.
I say it, I have heard it fromother therapists, and if you
(31:21):
connect with someone and say,let me understand you, as Diane
Langberg says, what makes youyou, yes, then in that place, in
a place of deep love and care,I can help you disentangle and
help you find places toexperience yourself differently.
But it is far longer and farmore messy than most people want
(31:42):
to do.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yes, and I'm so glad you're talking about it being
done in the context of intimatenot sexual intimate community.
That's where it has to be done.
But the hard thing, of course,is that when you experience that
and you feel that way aboutyourself, then what you want to
(32:04):
do is isolate, because you feelshame and anger and fear, and
the very thing that can behelpful to you is caring,
faithful, intimate communitywith believers who will help you
(32:29):
, and people like you, tammy,people like you.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Absolutely.
I mean, we know from therecovery community healing
happens in community and we cansay it in recovery places.
Recovery groups celebraterecovery, but when it comes down
to truly living life togetherand I want to be careful with
that because man holy cow,abusive churches use that- in
wrong ways.
And that is one of my biggestfrustration with wicked theology
(32:57):
.
It's weaponizing God's good andrighteous word and using pieces
and parts of it to serve yourown ends, which I am fairly
certain he says is a real badidea in scripture.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Real bad idea.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, shepherds are not supposed to eat the sheep.
That is not how this works, andI see that like oh, we want to
be in a covenant community.
Well, okay, tell me where thatcomes from in the Bible.
I have questions.
Secondly, how does that liveout and what does it truly look
like?
Because I was in an abusivechurch where I was told you are
shammily and everything thatthey found out about me and
(33:32):
found out about my struggles,about the harm they've been done
to me, it was used as a weaponto control, and so when I say
you know being and doing lifetogether, I know that that can
feel very tricky for people whohave been spiritually abused,
and so I just want toacknowledge that, because we may
have had a whole group ofpeople that just sort of had a
mini stroke while I was sayingit.
Yeah, I just want to note thatI'm not talking about that kind
(33:54):
of community, but the truecommunity with people who say I
really do love you.
I'm not going to do thisperfectly, but we're going to be
in this mess together and tryto figure it out.
We're going to be boundary inappropriate ways, because that's
part of health.
We are going to definitely talkabout the real things.
I have no capacity, at leastnone whatsoever, for a shallow
end conversation.
(34:15):
I am the worst.
I'm like let's just go, yeah,let's just go to the real stuff,
man Cause it's all.
We're all there, we all have it, and we have to be willing to
get in the dirt together,because that is where the
healing is going to happen.
Jesus meets us in the dirt.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yes, yes, yes, he does, yes, yes, yes, he does,
yes, he does.
And that was the very thingthat the religious elite hated
about him was he hung out withsinners.
He purposefully got down anddirty with all of the people who
(34:53):
were the outcasts of hisculture.
He's making a point and we needto follow in his footsteps, and
what that means is that a lotof the places that are talked
about these days as being reallythe great place where all this
(35:14):
power is and you know, we canaccomplish all this great stuff.
Whatever all of that, we haveto rethink who are Jesus'
friends?
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Yes, yeah, and man, it's so tempting because we want
a utopia.
Look, first of all, if you readthe actual Bible, it says the
world is not getting better.
Jesus is coming back, death'sgoing down, it's ugly at times,
and I heard recently a pastorsay we want to get back to the
(35:48):
America that we're supposed tohave.
We don't want to lose thisAmerica, and I remember thinking
I do.
I do because what's here andI'm not saying all things,
please.
No, I don't want to leave thiscountry.
I like it here, I'm good, butwhat I'm hearing is what I want
is power, and what I want ispeople to look like Jesus and to
(36:10):
humble themselves.
I talked with a buddy recentlyabout what contending for the
faith actually looks like.
Then it isn't going into placesand raving heck about things.
Now there are things toconfront, you know.
Of course, there are places wewant to press in.
However, I don't want to walkinto a place where I don't have
a relationship to somebody andsay you need to do it different.
(36:31):
They're not going to hear me.
I'm going to look like a crazyperson.
What I want to do is, again,first understand people and hear
them, and I want to invite themto meet this Savior in the way
that I live my own life and inthe way that I talk about Jesus.
I want to talk about him likethe friend that he is.
And you're talking about thosepeople that Jesus, you know, ate
(36:54):
with.
The Pharisees are like, oh,you're eating with a bunch of
sinners.
Here's the thing.
There are a few times Jesuswould do things and go, and then
go and sin no more.
How many of those people do youthink stayed in those dark
places after a true encounterwith the kind Jesus that he is?
You know, romans says it'sGod's kindness that leads us to
repentance.
Yes, yes, you know.
Romans says it's God's kindnessthat leads us to repentance.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Yes, yes, and that love that he would show to,
let's say, the woman who iscaught in adultery, that kind of
love that he would show to her,was transformative.
Yes, yes, say okay.
(37:52):
Well, I saw that you said acrossword His love and he did
confront sin, but his lovetransformed people, and when
they understood that he had thislove for them, then it was out
of that then that they began tochange.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yes, yeah, and he didn't put a timeline on change
Right.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, you got to do it in 12 weeks.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Right, and I've heard that from some biblical
counselors.
I have no hate for biblicalcounselors.
I have hate for some, but notfor a lot of them.
There are some that areliterally excellent.
They are trauma-informed andthey are wonderful.
And I want to be clear aboutthat because I know that there
are places and people that willsay always find a licensed
counselor.
And I'm like dude, find onethat loves Jesus and knows what
(38:46):
they're doing.
Right, like pick.
And some licensed counselorsare legitimately terrible.
And some biblical counselorsare legitimately terrible,
legitimately terrible.
And some biblical counselorsare legitimately terrible.
So don't pick them right, pickthe good one.
But I hear some biblicalcounselors saying but they
didn't do their homework, butthey didn't do what I told them
to do.
And if you don't understandwhat the barriers are, what
(39:07):
their struggles might be, wasyour homework even a good
thought or did you just get itout of a book, Like there's a
lot of things right that, ormaybe they just need to go
slower.
A lot of things I say tocounselors as I'm training them
is slow down, slow down.
You are not going to getcheckbox stuff, and we say that
when we're working withdestructive men who are abusing
(39:29):
people we talk about.
There is no timeline.
You have to see heart change.
Why isn't that applicableeverywhere?
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Do you want the actual answer to that question
or do we assume we know it?
Oh, I want you to say it.
Well, okay, because the peoplewho make the rules and the
people who tell the history arethe people who are in power.
The rules and the people whotell the history are the people
(39:59):
who are in power.
So the people who make therules and the people who tell
the history, generally speaking,have been men who, generally
speaking, very generallyspeaking, are not
trauma-informed.
Now, you and I know a bunch ofguys who are trauma-informed and
really wonderful, but generallyspeaking they're not.
(40:22):
And so then they get to tellthe stories of the history, they
get to tell you what yourhistory is, and then they get to
make the rules and tell you youneed to be better right away,
and if you're not better rightaway, it's because you're being
rebellious.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yeah, that might come from a very wicked place.
This is power and control.
It's what they want, and theyare wicked men.
I will just say wicked men andwomen, without question.
And then there are some that donot realize the water in which
they swim and what they aredrinking, right, and they just
haven't really thought itthrough and done that deep dive.
They've accepted whatevertradition that they have come up
(41:05):
in.
They have just accepted whatthey were taught, maybe in
seminary, and even thoughthey're studying the word of God
, they're not letting it bearweight on them in such a way
that it will challenge theseideologies.
And man, we talked aboutlegalism.
Dogma feels good because dogmais black and white and it makes
us feel safe.
And if I grew up yeah, beingtold, if you do this and America
(41:28):
looks like this, then you willbe safe, and we go back to idols
of safety and comfort and peaceand all of those things that
are and again, in and ofthemselves not bad, but they are
not God.
God is God.
That's it Right.
And I think that I know I'vegone through it and you've gone
through it because you describedit of having the word of God
(41:49):
actually bear weight on us andgo wait.
What are we believing?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
What are we walking in?
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Right.
Some people us and go wait,what are we believing, what are
we walking in?
And some people will call thatdeconstruction.
I call it sanctification andscripture talks about it.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yes, yes, yes.
And you know what I want to bereally clear here.
I was them Same, so I wrotebooks about that.
I've publicly asked forforgiveness for the ways in
which I'm sure I harmed peoplein my counsel in my writing in
(42:29):
part and I don't want this to bean excuse.
But, tabitha, I want to say itin part because I was trying to
fit into the mold that themale-dominated vocal counseling
movement said I needed to be.
So I was trying to findidentity in that and as soon as
(42:51):
I started talking about insteadfinding identity in Jesus, then
they began to look at mesideways and I was canceled by
those people and then I startedtalking about women and then you
(43:11):
know can't do that.
And then you know can't do that.
But I want to say listen, Iknow that temptation to want to
find your identity and approvalin the people with the
microphone, in the people withthe power.
I wanted that.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
But I hope now.
I hope that I really do see itand have turned from it as I
should.
I was definitely in that boat.
I hadn't written books at thatpoint, but I had talked with
people about the Lord in waysthat were incredibly unhelpful,
and I actually did go back tothose people and say I'm really
sorry, the way that I languageJesus was absolutely wrong and
so much different than who hesays he is, and I owe you an
apology.
And I think that that is aplace that we all want to stay.
(44:06):
I believe, maybe even moreright, maybe even we'll say on
the internet that we will in 10years, five years, whatever go.
Ooh, we did not have that quiteright, and I pray that we are
always humble enough to say Imessed that up, I'm so sorry and
(44:26):
I hope that there will be gracefor that.
You know, and and I want toalso set this apart from the
kind of apology we see from awicked pastor who's maybe slept
with his congregants or beenmolesting people or things like
that, because if you listen toapology, they're not actual
apologies.
I think of the Coldplay kiss camwhich, as we're recording, this
(44:47):
is one of the things that hasbeen hot in the news where a CEO
was caught being unfaithful ona concert kiss cam in a group of
68,000 people or so, and hisresponse was well, coldplay
shouldn't have shown me I had anexpectation of privacy.
They're playing a concert withthousands of people.
I think not, sir, and so itwasn't.
(45:08):
I'm so grieved by theheartbreak I have caused my
spouse, the heartbreak I'mcausing my children, the
heartbreak I am causing mycompany, and I'm going to really
evaluate it and do somethingdifferent.
It was I'm sorry I got caught.
And those are two differentthings, so I just want to set
that aside, because I know,especially for survivors,
apologies can be tricky, becausethey don't always.
(45:31):
Then you're like is thisgenuine, Is it not genuine?
Speaker 2 (45:34):
I'm not always sure always that you're like is this
genuine, is it not genuine?
I'm not always sure, right,right, and you know, I would say
I'm really glad.
You know, tabitha, wouldn't itbe terrible if the worst things
we'd ever done were shown on akiss cam?
(45:56):
Oh, goodness gracious, it'd beawful, wouldn't that be terrible
?
My only hope is that at the endof the age, when I'm standing
before Jesus Christ and he looksat my life and he says Jesus
Christ, and he looks at my lifeand he says well done, good and
(46:16):
faithful servant, not because ofsomething I've done, but
because of what he's done andhe's given me grace to believe.
So when he sees my record,which gets plastered I don't
know how and if it actually does, but is shown for what it is,
(46:38):
when he looks at that, what hesees is the perfections of his
obedience that have been givento me.
That's my only hope.
Because that dude on the kisscam, you know, know, I saw it
and I thought may I not beremembered by the worst thing
(47:04):
I've ever done?
Speaker 1 (47:05):
yes agreed.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
It's so sad I mean the destruction but know what
I've done, really destructivethings.
And may I not?
Recently also, I'll say this avery well-known pastor died and
I had people texting me oremailing me because this pastor
(47:36):
and those around him had donethings that were, I would say,
pretty unkind to myself and mydaughter.
And again I said this man ismore than the worst thing he
ever did and may I somehow havegrace for him, because God has
(48:02):
given me grace.
Now that doesn't mean that Idon't call out sin Right.
I definitely want to call itout, but I want to do so with
the heart that says that's me,you give me the right
circumstance, that's me.
(48:23):
May God help me not to be thatguy or that kiss cam guy or that
woman.
May we not be remembered by theworst things we've ever done,
and the only way we can do thatis by resting in Christ
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
And you speak of a tension that we all hold of.
I have to say what's wrong iswrong.
I can't not, especially as Iget older.
Heavens to Betsy man Boy.
Do we lose our filter, you know?
But also to the gift, the giftfrom God.
We lose the ability to like dothe high jump it all for our
(49:05):
filter?
It's fine.
But I look at that and I alwayswant to have compassion.
Yeah, I always want to say, atleast if this person you know,
lord, that their theology is nowaccurate because they see him
face to face.
And the grace that we want assurvivors must go both ways
(49:27):
right and that's real important.
And it's hard when you've beenhurt.
That doesn't mean in that grayspace now I would not have gone
to this pastor's church.
That would not have been myvibe.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
I would not have gone .
Speaker 1 (49:40):
But I can also give grace that if this individual
knew the Lord for sure and forreal and I'm not, I'm not Jesus
I wouldn't know that then nowthe theology is good and yeah,
you know, looking at that andsaying I want to have a heart of
compassion, a boundary to heartof good, and you know, looking
at that and saying I want tohave a heart of compassion, a
boundary to heart of compassion,again, I'm not going to hang
(50:00):
out with people who are you knowharmful, but I can have a
boundary heart of compassion forpeople that I very much
disagree with and it is my hopeand prayer that I can always
hold to something I've heard anattorney say before reasonable
minds can disagree and I candisagree vehemently with
(50:24):
destructive theology.
I can speak against it, I canspeak against the people who are
spouting it and I can namenames if I need to, and I can
hold that golly.
I hope there's a change and ifI see one, I'm going to
celebrate it.
I'm not going to be like wellonce upon a time, because I want
that grace given to me and thatmakes it hard, right.
(50:46):
Just like a lot of biblicalcounselors and pastors are like
we want a timeline.
I need to know that there's notone going the other way as well
, and that doesn't mean again, Iam not soft on destruction at
all.
I am not soft on sin, neitheris Jesus, but I can hold out or
this is messy and there arethings I do not know.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Right, right, right, and we probably won't understand
till the end.
And then you know what?
At the end it's going to be soglorious and the Lord will have
covered it all and all of theways in which I've sinned
against a person or others havesinned against me.
I will be able to love and theywill be able to love able to
(51:38):
love and they will be able tolove.
Not that we don't call it outhere and now, but then it's
going to be made right and I'mgoing to know how loved I am,
and that will put me at ease.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Yes, the concept that we're talking about from a
clinical perspective is called adialectic, and dialectics are
where we hold two things thatare opposite.
Yet they can be synthesized andso we can hold grace and
kindness and prayer for those wedisagree with vehemently for
lots of great reasons, and wecan speak out against it, and
(52:09):
they are not necessarilydiametrically opposed, and I
think that is, for survivors inparticular, an area of black and
white thinking that Jesus wouldlove to have different for most
of us, yes, and something thatcan be sanctified and redeemed,
and we can hold that tension andwe don't like holding tension.
It also means we hold grief yes,boy, do we not like grief Holy
(52:30):
cow?
Yes, yes, yes, boy, do we notlike grief holy cow?
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Yes, yes, yes.
So everything doesn't need tobe tidy, which, of course, is
the whole point of the Unlovedbook.
It's not going to be tidy, itwon't be neat, it won't be
Instagram worthy.
It's life, and life is a mess,but in the midst of it we can
(52:55):
find light and love and healing,and then courage to speak and
humility also to know when notto speak.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
Yes, absolutely.
I always tell my staff alwayslook for the light, and
sometimes it's going to be thelight from the dumpster fire.
They will always be light.
It's gonna keep your eyes onlight and that is so gracious
and good that there are peoplein this world that we can know
who are good and they look man,but you're not gonna get hurt.
(53:29):
You hurt your feelings, I'm notgonna hurt somebody else.
You know what I'm saying.
Like, right, that happens, butalso that are going to be humble
and ask for forgiveness and begood friends and even in the
messy there is such goodness andjoy possible.
And I think that unloved reallyspeaks to that in how it's
written, because Jesus is hereand he is good and he is light.
(53:53):
The light has come into theworld and the darkness cannot
overcome it.
Right, and unloved points us tohim who is the light?
I mean what I'm getting?
Yes, the wreck, only the sun inheaven, because, like he's
gonna be it, which is trippy,I'm like physics man.
I cannot wait to see how thatgoes.
Yeah, exactly well, elise, youare a delight.
(54:15):
You are full of wisdom andgrace, and I know that that all
comes at a price and I am sograteful for you spending time
with us here on hey Tabby andfor hanging out and for sharing
some of that wisdom, sharing itthrough your books, and we will
have all the wonderful placesthat people can find you.
In the show notes we will havea link to Unloved.
(54:36):
If you have not read it, Idefinitely heard it, I loved it,
it was really meaningful to meand we just hope that you'll
come back and hang out with ussometime.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
I'd love that.
Tabitha, Thank you so much.
Thank you for your love, yourhumility, your faithfulness, for
the way you continue to pursuethe Lord, even in the midst of
suffering.
Thank you for being a voice.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
My pleasure and thank you.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash heytabi.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist.
But I'm not your traumatherapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof hey Trabi.
I am so, so excited to be herewith my very amazing and
(00:45):
beautiful friend, eliseFitzpatrick.
If you don't know who Elise is,you have been living under a
rock and I am so glad you'regetting to meet her today.
But I'm going to tell you alittle bit about her.
Elise holds a certificate inbiblical counseling from the
CCEF of San Diego and she has amaster's of arts in biblical
counseling from TrinityTheological Seminary.
She's authored more than 25books on daily living and the
(01:09):
Christian life.
Elise loves to proclaim thegood news of the gospel that
Jesus, the second person of theTrinity, perfectly obeyed all
the law in our place, sufferedin isolation and agony as
punishment for our sin, died andthen rose again for our
justification.
A frequent speaker at nationalconferences, she lives in
Southern California with herhusband of over 50 years and has
(01:31):
three adult children and sixreally adorable grandchildren,
which is amazing, and I thinkthe adorable grandchildren are
probably the best, as I'mgetting closer and closer to
grandmother age myself.
I got a ways to go, but that'smy next step of adulting, I
guess.
So welcome, elise, thank youfor being here.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thank you, tabitha, it's an honor.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I got to meet you for the first time, gosh it's been
probably four-ish years at thispoint and I remember that my
first exposure to you in person,in the flesh.
I knew who you were because Igrew up in the Calvary Chapel
denomination that says it's nota denomination but it's 100% a
denomination, absolutely.
and you were honor approvedreading list at the time and so
(02:17):
probably not anymore but anywaybut I had knew you from that and
so I was like man, she's like abiblical counselor and I didn't
know much about you other thanthe things I had read.
And so to hear you from thestage at the call to Pete's
conference that first year, Iwas like, oh my gosh, I need to
(02:40):
be her friend.
And I very much walked up toyou right afterwards and said hi
, I'm Tabitha, we're going tomeet Brian.
And you were like I said yeahand then gave me a big hug and I
was like I knew I liked her andfrom that, just listening and
watching and following along thelast several years and hearing
what the Lord has laid on yourheart has been such a gift and
(03:01):
delight.
I know it has formed me and myfaith in deep ways and I know
it's formed the faith of so manyothers in deep ways.
Tell me a bit about yourjourney, because you were an OG
biblical counselor.
You've been around a while.
20 Side Books is definitely aminute.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Walk us through that, thanks.
Thank you, tavia, I'm so gladto be here.
Yeah, got saved in 1971, sortof in the whole Calvary Chapel
beginning movement right and Icame out of a really debauched
lifestyle, got saved, went toBible college.
(03:40):
People used to come to me forhelp.
I didn't know what to say.
So I eventually got a master'sdegree in biblical counseling,
thinking that was going to behelpful.
At some point along in there Iwant to say maybe the early
2000s or perhaps a littleearlier I really made a turn
(04:03):
toward seeing the gospel assomething that needed to inform
my life every day.
And that sounds weird because Ihad already been saved for
decades and was already servingthe Lord.
But I really saw how the gospel, the work of Jesus Christ, of
(04:30):
Jesus Christ, how that needed tobe central.
So that began to inform my life.
And then since then, everythingI've written has to do with how
does the gospel affect ourlives in certain realms, like in
our parenting or in counseling,or as women.
How does the gospel affect ourlives?
How does it affect our lives inour relationships with others?
(04:52):
How does the gospel speak to usas people who live in a very
broken world?
And how does the gospel speakto the way we think about the
women of the Bible, the womenaround us, roles of women.
It was really a transformationthat happened in me after I got
saved, after I had a degree inbiblical counseling, that I
(05:16):
began to see the gospel as beingparamount.
And then I would say reallyover, let's say the last five or
six years since Eric Shoemakerand I wrote Worthy I had always
let's say that I had alwayswanted because I am a woman, I
(05:38):
had wanted to highlight womenand minister to women.
You know what?
I'm going to take that back,leave it in, because I want
people to hear now how I want tore-say that For a long time I
tried to form myself into whatthe male majority culture of the
(06:05):
church wanted me to be and then, but then I've been making a
change and I've the changereally became very obvious when
we wrote Worthy and I began tosee as a Christian woman.
(06:27):
I began to see how prominentthe stories of women were in
Scripture, how important womenwere to the Lord and to the
narrative of the gospel.
So then I've been on thattrajectory for five or six years
(06:49):
, really wanting to speak towomen about their value, about
how beloved they are as women,because they are women.
I wanted to speak to that, andof course, that leads you into
(07:12):
the way women are being treated.
So maybe this is more than youwant, but when Worthy came out,
that was about the time of MeToo, and Church Too.
Worthy came out.
That was about the time of MeToo, and Church Too, and I
(07:44):
posted how I had been date rapedand how I had been sexually
assaulted at a, a intellectualexercise about the worth of
women and how women aredenigrated and how they need to
be supported.
This is my story too.
This is my story too, and Iremember my eldest grandson.
(08:07):
At the time when I posted thathe's in his twenties.
He emailed me and he said, mimi, I'm I'm so sorry that happened
to you and I thought I'm sosorry.
You have to know it, but he doeshave to know it.
(08:28):
He has to know it that this iswhat women face.
So I want to be an advocate forthe marginalized, those without
power, people who aresystemically abused, women and,
(08:50):
of course, other marginalizedpeople.
That's the trajectory I'm onand I made a little joke about.
Well, I may not be on theirlist anymore of recommended
resources because people don'tlike it, and you already know
this.
People don't like it when youcall them out.
(09:10):
People in power don't like itwhen you call them out and tell
them no, what you're doing iswrong.
And even in the writing of thebook Worthy, all we were trying
to do was say women have valueand we were canceled all over
(09:31):
the place.
So that's the state of to womenand cares deeply about women
who have been in abusivesituations.
(09:52):
So I'm really happy that I'mthere now, but I haven't always
been there and it's been painful.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, it's always interesting to me when people in
positions of power get upsetabout saying Jesus loves women
and not all people.
Because, I want to be clear,both you and I are not men
haters by any means at all.
Absolutely not.
I think that calling outdestructive power structures is
(10:23):
actually love.
Jesus did that.
Those are the things he said tothe Pharisee.
Those are the things he said tothe people in leadership what
are you doing?
And it was an invitation torepentance and we are called to
do that.
In scripture, we are called tosay this does not align with the
word of God, what is happening.
And it is an invitation to thebrothers and sisters who are
(10:46):
walking in a way that does notlook like Christ.
I was listening recently toRachel Denhollander on a podcast
and Rachel is fierce and feistyand beautiful in so many
wonderful ways and she wastalking about how she had been
all of the things that she wassupposed to be.
And it still wasn't enough,because she was using her voice.
(11:08):
He was talking about things,just calling out problems in the
power structures and sayingthis is not the way that it
should be and that was a problem.
And it was a problem mainlybecause she was a woman and
that's unfortunate because thatisn't what scripture shows in
any way.
In fact, Jesus is equalizer ofwomen in a lot of ways.
(11:29):
Talking to this American woman,this is a lot of what you have
in your book Unloved, which isyour most recent book, and I
love this book called Unloved.
It's wonderful and whatinspired you to write this book
at this time?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Thank you.
Thank you, tabitha.
So Unloved, the rejected saintsGod calls beloved.
I always have to say thatbecause, as an author, you get
people, the publisher gives youa subtitle and I never can
remember what they are.
So that's the subtitle.
(12:09):
So why I wrote it?
I wrote it for two reasons.
I wrote it first of all,because I'm sick to death.
Sick to death of hearingwomen's stories in the Bible
(12:31):
being told by men who have acertain perspective that I would
disagree with.
So I wanted to tell theirstories, and I wanted to tell
them in a way that was faithfulto Scripture but also would show
that they were in fact belovedby God, even though a lot of
their life looked like it wasfalling apart.
So that was the first impetus.
(12:55):
The second was this that so manyChristian women feel like
Christianity is a meritocracy.
Women feel like Christianity isa meritocracy, and what I mean
by that is they feel like ifthey could just be good enough,
if they could just do all thethings perfectly enough, if they
(13:16):
could just oh I hate this besubmissive enough, that somehow
their life would be good.
It would look like someInstagram post and see,
christianity is not ameritocracy.
We don't earn blessing from God.
(13:39):
God, in his grace, blesses usbecause of the work that Jesus
Christ has done, so it'sactually Jesus' merits become
the way we receive God'sblessing, not because we're
working hard.
So I really was trying to pushagainst two things that again
(14:03):
that I think are just rife inAmerican evangelicalism.
First, the first thing istelling the stories of the women
.
Men telling the stories of thewomen in now I want to rephrase
that, because some women do ittoo People in power telling the
(14:26):
stories of women in a way thatis not faithful to Scripture.
And then, secondly, theundergirding sort of feeling
that women have been told.
If you would just blank enough,your life would be great, and
(14:47):
that's not the story that weread in Scripture at all.
The story we read in Scriptureis that faithful people suffer
and, as I'm sure all of thepeople who listen to this and as
I'm sure all of the people wholisten to this, there's an area
of suffering in your life.
And don't think that.
(15:09):
Don't automatically think that,okay, this is something I'm
done and God's punishing me andif I just work harder I can earn
more merit and be better.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Jesus Christ earned all the merit we need?
Yes, absolutely, and I thinkeven in the Old Testament we see
that play out in the book ofJob.
Job is like what in the actualheck is going on here, exactly,
and his dingbat friends are allthere going well, perhaps you
have sinned and at the end Godgoes.
Job is the one who spokerightly of me, not his dingbat
friends and dingbat friends.
You need to take somesacrifices and have joe pray for
(15:45):
you, because y'all did not getit, and I think that is such a
vital thing.
We have a very much.
I don't want to put thisamericanized version of
christianity, I think, and weabsolutely push against
(16:07):
suffering in favor of comfortand things like that, and
comfort is not a bad thing.
You know, none of these thingsare bad things.
I think tim keller would callthem source idols and it hits
the counterfeit god.
And none of these things are badthey're not wicked but when
they are more important thanactual life, we cannot get away
(16:30):
from life being lifey.
At times it is what it is, andI remember you speaking about
this meritocracy at a retreatthat I was at and I ended up.
We were talking beforehand.
I was like dude, I had to putthis in a note and send it to my
therapist because I was likethis is going to be a session
and it was because I didn'trealize, from some of the
(16:52):
spiritual abuse I had endured inchurches, that I had drunk in
this theology that I had to earn, Even though my brain knows I
read the book of Galatians.
I love the book of Galatians.
Yeah, foolish Galatians who it'sbewitched.
You, having begun in the spirit, are you trying to keep on
going in the blood Like?
I believe that?
But in my own soul I was like,well, I'm struggling, things are
(17:17):
hard, it must be me, and thereality is, life is lifey.
And one of the quotes I pulledfrom that was there may be a
measure of peace and freedom,but it may not work out as we
want, as we serve the Lord.
And I thought that was just soprofound because I don't know
that we always believe that.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Right and you know we can say as good Protestants we
don't think we earn oursalvation, that it's a gift from
God.
So we can say that andintellectually assent to it if
you will.
Yeah, I agree.
(17:58):
But then the way we live outour lives is this sort of
feeling that if I was justbetter, I could get more
blessing from God.
And to have it you just, yousee it everywhere.
(18:18):
I mean non-stop in books andpodcasts, not this one.
Books and podcasts andconferences, you know, and
sermons.
If you want to have a happylife, do these six things Well,
in a sense like knowing thatyou're living in a way that is
(18:41):
consistent with your realidentity as a child of God.
That does bring a sense ofblessing and happiness, knowing
that you're living in a way thatreflects who you really are.
But on the other hand, theBible's full of people who were
(19:03):
serving God and had reallyterrible lives.
I mean Isaiah, or was itJeremiah, I don't remember Got
thrown into the sewer.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
That was Jeremiah.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Jeremiah.
I mean Jesus ended up on across.
Yeah, jesus ended up on a cross.
Yeah, Almost all of theapostles died martyrs' deaths.
So let's not think that becausewe're living in a way that's
consistent with our trueidentity, which is I am loved by
(19:40):
God, let's not think that ifI'm living consistently, that
automatically means that I'mgoing to have this American
comfort thing.
Now, tabby, you and I knowthat's true and we can say it,
but then when the sky falls,then we think what did I do?
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, I think that's where really good, solid,
trauma-informed, not legalisticbiblical community is such a
vital gift, because we needpeople to come around us when it
all hits the fan to say you areso loved.
(20:28):
I don't have answers here, andwe do try to circumvent and
spiritually bypass, becauseother people's pain hit, pain in
us and make us uncomfortableand so we're like let me slap a
verse on that which is unhelpful.
Unless the verse is, I'm goingto sit with you and wail no,
which I don't know.
That there's an exact verse, Ithink, probably something closer
(20:48):
than the psalms, but that issomething that we just don't do.
Well, we don't sit with folkswho are struggling.
Now, obviously, if we canprovide a practical you know
support, if we can help someoneget out of oppression, of course
we want to do that of you, wantto come alongside practically,
but there are things that willnot be healed in our lifetime
(21:10):
and you say it so well inUnloved.
I'm going to actually read it.
It's when you are talking aboutGomer, and what I love is that
you talk about Gomer and she isin the book of Hosea.
Hosea was actually a formativebook for me when I was getting
out of abuse, which is wildbecause at the time, a jillion
(21:31):
years ago now, I was like whoreads Hosea?
Like?
And the Lord kept bringing meback to Hosea and I'm like why?
Why are we here, jesus?
I do not understand.
Until we got to chapter six andin verses one through three he
says I am going to destroy yourlife, but I will rebuild it as
sure as the rains come in thespring.
That's the summarization ofthose verses.
(21:51):
And I remember sitting on my bedknowing implicitly God said I
am taking your marriage becauseit is unwell and you are in
danger, and I promise you I willrebuild your life.
And I just remember thinking,thinking I do not want this word
, I'm not enjoying, do not love.
But it was so strong in me Icouldn't step away from it.
(22:14):
I knew what was coming and it'sGod's mercy that I knew it was
coming because he already saidhe'd be with me and I watched
him do that as I escaped a verydangerous situation.
But I look at how we have talkedabout in the church Gomer and
how we have maybe misunderstoodwhat her life might have been
like and the things that youbring up about her are just so
(22:36):
tender and kind and to me reallyspeak to the heart of Jesus in
that.
And one of the things that youtalk about in terms of her
self-destructive, because shekept going back to prostitution,
which also is a lot like ourown hearts.
You say turning fromself-destructive habits for the
life that welcomes and rests inthe Lord's love may take a
(22:57):
lifetime.
Sometimes we never knowcomplete release from them, and
as a therapist who walks withpeople through exiting
destruction, exiting their ownresponses to destruction, I see
this all the time that it is sohard, when we've had such deep
trauma, to walk differently andrest feels unsafe because you
(23:20):
don't know it, and so I justlove the tenderness that you say
hey, god's still with you, butthere may still be struggles.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yes, and you know, when you look at the life of
somebody like Gomer andbasically for whomever might be
listening to this that doesn'tknow the story, hosea is a
prophet.
God tells him to marry aprostitute.
The prostitute is Gomer.
He marries her and he is afaithful husband to her, but she
(23:52):
leaves him and goes back intoher life of prostitution.
He buys her back out of thatand you know, we never see a
time in her life where she'scompletely free.
You know, she certainly alwayscarried her reputation within
(24:16):
the village where she was.
But also when you think about aperson who struggles like she
did and you think, why would shedo that?
Why would she go back to that?
I think the way it would havebeen spun in the past by people
who got to tell the history.
(24:38):
You know, oh well, she's just aslut.
We're just going to slut shameher Instead of saying what is it
in the heart of Gomer thatmakes her feel like this life of
being used and abused in thisway is where is her identity?
(25:05):
I have a problem believing thatthere's any little girl in the
world who, when she's six orseven years old, perhaps she's
already been abused, butassuming she is not, who says
when I grow up, I hope I get tobe a prostitute.
Nobody thinks that.
You think that because you havebeen made to believe that
(25:33):
that's what you deserve, thatthat's your true identity and
that Tabitha is what's soimportant.
And I think, really, how thechurch has missed it in not
talking about our identity inChrist and instead saying do
(25:55):
these things and you'll have thehappy identity of an Instagram
post.
So Gomer is beloved.
Beloved.
God calls her beloved.
See, because he sees beyondthis outward, he sees her heart
(26:17):
and he knows her story.
And that's what we have tostart doing is saying I want to
see the story, but not only do Iwant to see the story.
I want God to help me and tohelp every woman I speak to
understand what it is to havethe identity of Jesus Christ, To
(26:44):
be completely forgiven and tobe counted completely righteous,
completely obedient, yeah, tobe adopted and loved and
welcomed at the table.
That's what I want.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
And again we can say yes and amen but then we got to
fight that because we are all ofus by nature legalists.
I know that there are people inthe survivor community that
struggle with folks knowing thatpeople are caught in legalism
and stuck in that place, and Iget that.
But I do want to say we allhave that bent and we can be
(27:29):
legalistic on multiple sides.
I always pray to the Lord.
I never want to become thatwhich I wore against, and it's
always right there for us ifwe're not careful.
And I also think that forleadership it is so vital to ask
the question what makes thismake sense?
It's a therapy question I askall the time and it doesn't mean
(27:52):
that I want people to stay indestructive places, by no means.
But I really have to start withhow did we get here?
And I've had multiple pastorsover years of working with women
.
If a woman is caught ininfidelity or admits to
infidelity, then they refer toher as an adulteress.
And when I sit with them and Ihear their story of childhood
(28:16):
trauma, their story of domesticabuse and coercive control, and
I hear how desperate they are tobe loved.
And then some man comes inwhile they are separated from
their husband or what have you,and they give them care and
kindness.
So they might be a freakingpredator, but they give them
what feels like goodness andlove and they go to it like a
(28:36):
moth to a flame.
And when you say, what is shetrying to get from this?
What is happening for her?
Is she trying to get from thiswhat is happening for her?
Then you can dive deeper and say, oh, there's a very real need
here that did not get metbecause she has been so unloved.
And let's talk about how, first, god can fill that need and how
(29:00):
she can learn to have healthycommunity.
That fills that need.
That isn't necessarily anadulterous relationship, right,
because we can have non-sexualintimacy with lots of people in
beautiful ways that are verylife-giving and biblically
oriented and not sloppy agape,if you will.
And that is something I justlong for leaders to have.
They give that goodness oftento men because they will have
(29:23):
men's groups for men who havestruggled with sex addiction or
compulsive sexual behaviors.
They do not have in-kindwomen's groups.
Almost anywhere there's a few,but nobody ever says why is this
a struggle?
Why, what happens to you?
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Yeah, yes, what happened to you?
I was talking with a goodfriend of mine the other day and
she was talking about arelative of hers that every so
often she just goes off therails, and I mean she goes off
the rails in big ways.
And my friend asked me.
(30:02):
She said why would she do this?
She'd put her life backtogether again.
And now here she is relivingthis same destruction.
It's because she thinks that'sher identity, that's who she is,
that's what she deserves andthat's something that has been
(30:26):
ingrained in her so that shedoesn't think of herself as,
let's say, Elise the righteous,beloved one of God.
She thinks of herself as Elisethe slut.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
I think what pastors and leaders at times don't
understand is that to change youmust experience yourself
differently first, and so I canhave an intellectual theology
that knows all of the systematictheology I can walk you right
through it.
My functional theology when Iactually live out might look a
(31:00):
lot different.
Right, and if you are willingto take the time and disentangle
, then you can start ferretingthat out.
One of the things that I hearoften is connection precedes
correction.
I say it, I have heard it fromother therapists, and if you
(31:21):
connect with someone and say,let me understand you, as Diane
Langberg says, what makes youyou, yes, then in that place, in
a place of deep love and care,I can help you disentangle and
help you find places toexperience yourself differently.
But it is far longer and farmore messy than most people want
(31:42):
to do.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yes, and I'm so glad you're talking about it being
done in the context of intimatenot sexual intimate community.
That's where it has to be done.
But the hard thing, of course,is that when you experience that
and you feel that way aboutyourself, then what you want to
(32:04):
do is isolate, because you feelshame and anger and fear, and
the very thing that can behelpful to you is caring,
faithful, intimate communitywith believers who will help you
(32:29):
, and people like you, tammy,people like you.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Absolutely.
I mean, we know from therecovery community healing
happens in community and we cansay it in recovery places.
Recovery groups celebraterecovery, but when it comes down
to truly living life togetherand I want to be careful with
that because man holy cow,abusive churches use that- in
wrong ways.
And that is one of my biggestfrustration with wicked theology
(32:57):
.
It's weaponizing God's good andrighteous word and using pieces
and parts of it to serve yourown ends, which I am fairly
certain he says is a real badidea in scripture.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Real bad idea.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, shepherds are not supposed to eat the sheep.
That is not how this works, andI see that like oh, we want to
be in a covenant community.
Well, okay, tell me where thatcomes from in the Bible.
I have questions.
Secondly, how does that liveout and what does it truly look
like?
Because I was in an abusivechurch where I was told you are
shammily and everything thatthey found out about me and
(33:32):
found out about my struggles,about the harm they've been done
to me, it was used as a weaponto control, and so when I say
you know being and doing lifetogether, I know that that can
feel very tricky for people whohave been spiritually abused,
and so I just want toacknowledge that, because we may
have had a whole group ofpeople that just sort of had a
mini stroke while I was sayingit.
Yeah, I just want to note thatI'm not talking about that kind
(33:54):
of community, but the truecommunity with people who say I
really do love you.
I'm not going to do thisperfectly, but we're going to be
in this mess together and tryto figure it out.
We're going to be boundary inappropriate ways, because that's
part of health.
We are going to definitely talkabout the real things.
I have no capacity, at leastnone whatsoever, for a shallow
end conversation.
(34:15):
I am the worst.
I'm like let's just go, yeah,let's just go to the real stuff,
man Cause it's all.
We're all there, we all have it, and we have to be willing to
get in the dirt together,because that is where the
healing is going to happen.
Jesus meets us in the dirt.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yes, yes, yes, he does, yes, yes, yes, he does,
yes, he does.
And that was the very thingthat the religious elite hated
about him was he hung out withsinners.
He purposefully got down anddirty with all of the people who
(34:53):
were the outcasts of hisculture.
He's making a point and we needto follow in his footsteps, and
what that means is that a lotof the places that are talked
about these days as being reallythe great place where all this
(35:14):
power is and you know, we canaccomplish all this great stuff.
Whatever all of that, we haveto rethink who are Jesus'
friends?
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Yes, yeah, and man, it's so tempting because we want
a utopia.
Look, first of all, if you readthe actual Bible, it says the
world is not getting better.
Jesus is coming back, death'sgoing down, it's ugly at times,
and I heard recently a pastorsay we want to get back to the
(35:48):
America that we're supposed tohave.
We don't want to lose thisAmerica, and I remember thinking
I do.
I do because what's here andI'm not saying all things,
please.
No, I don't want to leave thiscountry.
I like it here, I'm good, butwhat I'm hearing is what I want
is power, and what I want ispeople to look like Jesus and to
(36:10):
humble themselves.
I talked with a buddy recentlyabout what contending for the
faith actually looks like.
Then it isn't going into placesand raving heck about things.
Now there are things toconfront, you know.
Of course, there are places wewant to press in.
However, I don't want to walkinto a place where I don't have
a relationship to somebody andsay you need to do it different.
(36:31):
They're not going to hear me.
I'm going to look like a crazyperson.
What I want to do is, again,first understand people and hear
them, and I want to invite themto meet this Savior in the way
that I live my own life and inthe way that I talk about Jesus.
I want to talk about him likethe friend that he is.
And you're talking about thosepeople that Jesus, you know, ate
(36:54):
with.
The Pharisees are like, oh,you're eating with a bunch of
sinners.
Here's the thing.
There are a few times Jesuswould do things and go, and then
go and sin no more.
How many of those people do youthink stayed in those dark
places after a true encounterwith the kind Jesus that he is?
You know, romans says it'sGod's kindness that leads us to
repentance.
Yes, yes, you know.
Romans says it's God's kindnessthat leads us to repentance.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Yes, yes, and that love that he would show to,
let's say, the woman who iscaught in adultery, that kind of
love that he would show to her,was transformative.
Yes, yes, say okay.
(37:52):
Well, I saw that you said acrossword His love and he did
confront sin, but his lovetransformed people, and when
they understood that he had thislove for them, then it was out
of that then that they began tochange.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yes, yeah, and he didn't put a timeline on change
Right.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, you got to do it in 12 weeks.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Right, and I've heard that from some biblical
counselors.
I have no hate for biblicalcounselors.
I have hate for some, but notfor a lot of them.
There are some that areliterally excellent.
They are trauma-informed andthey are wonderful.
And I want to be clear aboutthat because I know that there
are places and people that willsay always find a licensed
counselor.
And I'm like dude, find onethat loves Jesus and knows what
(38:46):
they're doing.
Right, like pick.
And some licensed counselorsare legitimately terrible.
And some biblical counselorsare legitimately terrible,
legitimately terrible.
And some biblical counselorsare legitimately terrible.
So don't pick them right, pickthe good one.
But I hear some biblicalcounselors saying but they
didn't do their homework, butthey didn't do what I told them
to do.
And if you don't understandwhat the barriers are, what
(39:07):
their struggles might be, wasyour homework even a good
thought or did you just get itout of a book, Like there's a
lot of things right that, ormaybe they just need to go
slower.
A lot of things I say tocounselors as I'm training them
is slow down, slow down.
You are not going to getcheckbox stuff, and we say that
when we're working withdestructive men who are abusing
(39:29):
people we talk about.
There is no timeline.
You have to see heart change.
Why isn't that applicableeverywhere?
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Do you want the actual answer to that question
or do we assume we know it?
Oh, I want you to say it.
Well, okay, because the peoplewho make the rules and the
people who tell the history arethe people who are in power.
The rules and the people whotell the history are the people
(39:59):
who are in power.
So the people who make therules and the people who tell
the history, generally speaking,have been men who, generally
speaking, very generallyspeaking, are not
trauma-informed.
Now, you and I know a bunch ofguys who are trauma-informed and
really wonderful, but generallyspeaking they're not.
(40:22):
And so then they get to tellthe stories of the history, they
get to tell you what yourhistory is, and then they get to
make the rules and tell you youneed to be better right away,
and if you're not better rightaway, it's because you're being
rebellious.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yeah, that might come from a very wicked place.
This is power and control.
It's what they want, and theyare wicked men.
I will just say wicked men andwomen, without question.
And then there are some that donot realize the water in which
they swim and what they aredrinking, right, and they just
haven't really thought itthrough and done that deep dive.
They've accepted whatevertradition that they have come up
(41:05):
in.
They have just accepted whatthey were taught, maybe in
seminary, and even thoughthey're studying the word of God
, they're not letting it bearweight on them in such a way
that it will challenge theseideologies.
And man, we talked aboutlegalism.
Dogma feels good because dogmais black and white and it makes
us feel safe.
And if I grew up yeah, beingtold, if you do this and America
(41:28):
looks like this, then you willbe safe, and we go back to idols
of safety and comfort and peaceand all of those things that
are and again, in and ofthemselves not bad, but they are
not God.
God is God.
That's it Right.
And I think that I know I'vegone through it and you've gone
through it because you describedit of having the word of God
(41:49):
actually bear weight on us andgo wait.
What are we believing?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
What are we walking in?
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Right.
Some people us and go wait,what are we believing, what are
we walking in?
And some people will call thatdeconstruction.
I call it sanctification andscripture talks about it.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yes, yes, yes.
And you know what I want to bereally clear here.
I was them Same, so I wrotebooks about that.
I've publicly asked forforgiveness for the ways in
which I'm sure I harmed peoplein my counsel in my writing in
(42:29):
part and I don't want this to bean excuse.
But, tabitha, I want to say itin part because I was trying to
fit into the mold that themale-dominated vocal counseling
movement said I needed to be.
So I was trying to findidentity in that and as soon as
(42:51):
I started talking about insteadfinding identity in Jesus, then
they began to look at mesideways and I was canceled by
those people and then I startedtalking about women and then you
(43:11):
know can't do that.
And then you know can't do that.
But I want to say listen, Iknow that temptation to want to
find your identity and approvalin the people with the
microphone, in the people withthe power.
I wanted that.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
But I hope now.
I hope that I really do see itand have turned from it as I
should.
I was definitely in that boat.
I hadn't written books at thatpoint, but I had talked with
people about the Lord in waysthat were incredibly unhelpful,
and I actually did go back tothose people and say I'm really
sorry, the way that I languageJesus was absolutely wrong and
so much different than who hesays he is, and I owe you an
apology.
And I think that that is aplace that we all want to stay.
(44:06):
I believe, maybe even moreright, maybe even we'll say on
the internet that we will in 10years, five years, whatever go.
Ooh, we did not have that quiteright, and I pray that we are
always humble enough to say Imessed that up, I'm so sorry and
(44:26):
I hope that there will be gracefor that.
You know, and and I want toalso set this apart from the
kind of apology we see from awicked pastor who's maybe slept
with his congregants or beenmolesting people or things like
that, because if you listen toapology, they're not actual
apologies.
I think of the Coldplay kiss camwhich, as we're recording, this
(44:47):
is one of the things that hasbeen hot in the news where a CEO
was caught being unfaithful ona concert kiss cam in a group of
68,000 people or so, and hisresponse was well, coldplay
shouldn't have shown me I had anexpectation of privacy.
They're playing a concert withthousands of people.
I think not, sir, and so itwasn't.
(45:08):
I'm so grieved by theheartbreak I have caused my
spouse, the heartbreak I'mcausing my children, the
heartbreak I am causing mycompany, and I'm going to really
evaluate it and do somethingdifferent.
It was I'm sorry I got caught.
And those are two differentthings, so I just want to set
that aside, because I know,especially for survivors,
apologies can be tricky, becausethey don't always.
(45:31):
Then you're like is thisgenuine, Is it not genuine?
Speaker 2 (45:34):
I'm not always sure always that you're like is this
genuine, is it not genuine?
I'm not always sure, right,right, and you know, I would say
I'm really glad.
You know, tabitha, wouldn't itbe terrible if the worst things
we'd ever done were shown on akiss cam?
(45:56):
Oh, goodness gracious, it'd beawful, wouldn't that be terrible
?
My only hope is that at the endof the age, when I'm standing
before Jesus Christ and he looksat my life and he says Jesus
Christ, and he looks at my lifeand he says well done, good and
(46:16):
faithful servant, not because ofsomething I've done, but
because of what he's done andhe's given me grace to believe.
So when he sees my record,which gets plastered I don't
know how and if it actually does, but is shown for what it is,
(46:38):
when he looks at that, what hesees is the perfections of his
obedience that have been givento me.
That's my only hope.
Because that dude on the kisscam, you know, know, I saw it
and I thought may I not beremembered by the worst thing
(47:04):
I've ever done?
Speaker 1 (47:05):
yes agreed.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
It's so sad I mean the destruction but know what
I've done, really destructivethings.
And may I not?
Recently also, I'll say this avery well-known pastor died and
I had people texting me oremailing me because this pastor
(47:36):
and those around him had donethings that were, I would say,
pretty unkind to myself and mydaughter.
And again I said this man ismore than the worst thing he
ever did and may I somehow havegrace for him, because God has
(48:02):
given me grace.
Now that doesn't mean that Idon't call out sin Right.
I definitely want to call itout, but I want to do so with
the heart that says that's me,you give me the right
circumstance, that's me.
(48:23):
May God help me not to be thatguy or that kiss cam guy or that
woman.
May we not be remembered by theworst things we've ever done,
and the only way we can do thatis by resting in Christ
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
And you speak of a tension that we all hold of.
I have to say what's wrong iswrong.
I can't not, especially as Iget older.
Heavens to Betsy man Boy.
Do we lose our filter, you know?
But also to the gift, the giftfrom God.
We lose the ability to like dothe high jump it all for our
(49:05):
filter?
It's fine.
But I look at that and I alwayswant to have compassion.
Yeah, I always want to say, atleast if this person you know,
lord, that their theology is nowaccurate because they see him
face to face.
And the grace that we want assurvivors must go both ways
(49:27):
right and that's real important.
And it's hard when you've beenhurt.
That doesn't mean in that grayspace now I would not have gone
to this pastor's church.
That would not have been myvibe.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
I would not have gone .
Speaker 1 (49:40):
But I can also give grace that if this individual
knew the Lord for sure and forreal and I'm not, I'm not Jesus
I wouldn't know that then nowthe theology is good and yeah,
you know, looking at that andsaying I want to have a heart of
compassion, a boundary to heartof good, and you know, looking
at that and saying I want tohave a heart of compassion, a
boundary to heart of compassion,again, I'm not going to hang
(50:00):
out with people who are you knowharmful, but I can have a
boundary heart of compassion forpeople that I very much
disagree with and it is my hopeand prayer that I can always
hold to something I've heard anattorney say before reasonable
minds can disagree and I candisagree vehemently with
(50:24):
destructive theology.
I can speak against it, I canspeak against the people who are
spouting it and I can namenames if I need to, and I can
hold that golly.
I hope there's a change and ifI see one, I'm going to
celebrate it.
I'm not going to be like wellonce upon a time, because I want
that grace given to me and thatmakes it hard, right.
(50:46):
Just like a lot of biblicalcounselors and pastors are like
we want a timeline.
I need to know that there's notone going the other way as well
, and that doesn't mean again, Iam not soft on destruction at
all.
I am not soft on sin, neitheris Jesus, but I can hold out or
this is messy and there arethings I do not know.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Right, right, right, and we probably won't understand
till the end.
And then you know what?
At the end it's going to be soglorious and the Lord will have
covered it all and all of theways in which I've sinned
against a person or others havesinned against me.
I will be able to love and theywill be able to love able to
(51:38):
love and they will be able tolove.
Not that we don't call it outhere and now, but then it's
going to be made right and I'mgoing to know how loved I am,
and that will put me at ease.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Yes, the concept that we're talking about from a
clinical perspective is called adialectic, and dialectics are
where we hold two things thatare opposite.
Yet they can be synthesized andso we can hold grace and
kindness and prayer for those wedisagree with vehemently for
lots of great reasons, and wecan speak out against it, and
(52:09):
they are not necessarilydiametrically opposed, and I
think that is, for survivors inparticular, an area of black and
white thinking that Jesus wouldlove to have different for most
of us, yes, and something thatcan be sanctified and redeemed,
and we can hold that tension andwe don't like holding tension.
It also means we hold grief yes,boy, do we not like grief Holy
(52:30):
cow?
Yes, yes, yes, boy, do we notlike grief holy cow?
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Yes, yes, yes.
So everything doesn't need tobe tidy, which, of course, is
the whole point of the Unlovedbook.
It's not going to be tidy, itwon't be neat, it won't be
Instagram worthy.
It's life, and life is a mess,but in the midst of it we can
(52:55):
find light and love and healing,and then courage to speak and
humility also to know when notto speak.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
Yes, absolutely.
I always tell my staff alwayslook for the light, and
sometimes it's going to be thelight from the dumpster fire.
They will always be light.
It's gonna keep your eyes onlight and that is so gracious
and good that there are peoplein this world that we can know
who are good and they look man,but you're not gonna get hurt.
(53:29):
You hurt your feelings, I'm notgonna hurt somebody else.
You know what I'm saying.
Like, right, that happens, butalso that are going to be humble
and ask for forgiveness and begood friends and even in the
messy there is such goodness andjoy possible.
And I think that unloved reallyspeaks to that in how it's
written, because Jesus is hereand he is good and he is light.
(53:53):
The light has come into theworld and the darkness cannot
overcome it.
Right, and unloved points us tohim who is the light?
I mean what I'm getting?
Yes, the wreck, only the sun inheaven, because, like he's
gonna be it, which is trippy,I'm like physics man.
I cannot wait to see how thatgoes.
Yeah, exactly well, elise, youare a delight.
(54:15):
You are full of wisdom andgrace, and I know that that all
comes at a price and I am sograteful for you spending time
with us here on hey Tabby andfor hanging out and for sharing
some of that wisdom, sharing itthrough your books, and we will
have all the wonderful placesthat people can find you.
In the show notes we will havea link to Unloved.
(54:36):
If you have not read it, Idefinitely heard it, I loved it,
it was really meaningful to meand we just hope that you'll
come back and hang out with ussometime.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
I'd love that.
Tabitha, Thank you so much.
Thank you for your love, yourhumility, your faithfulness, for
the way you continue to pursuethe Lord, even in the midst of
suffering.
Thank you for being a voice.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
My pleasure and thank you.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash heytabi.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!