May 5, 2025 • 52 mins
Have you ever feared being seen as the "nagging wife" from Proverbs? You're not alone.
In this powerful episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook sits down with women's leader and author Kelly Galyean to explore how biblical illiteracy has fueled shame and silence for many Christian women. Together, they unpack how Scripture has often been misunderstood or weaponized—especially in the context of marriage, trauma, and abuse.
Kelly vulnerably shares her story of learning about these verses in context, and with courage and hope. They also discuss how the church can better support women, what healthy marriages actually look like, and why biblical literacy is critical for healing from spiritual and emotional harm.
Plus, Kelly introduces her Christian romance novel How Can It Be?—a redemptive story of love, grace, and starting over.
Whether you've felt silenced, shamed, or just spiritually stuck, this episode offers wisdom, warmth, and practical encouragement for your healing journey.
Find Kelly - http://www.kelligalyean.com/
Kelly's Instagram - @kelli.a.galyean
Order How Can It Be? - https://a.co/d/901G5Ly
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com
💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
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🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tabitha Westbrook (00:00):
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we
talk about the hard things outloud with our actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
I am super stoked for thisweek's episode of hey Tabby.
I am here with my good friend,kelly Galleon, and we are going
(00:44):
to talk about some awesomethings, but first I want to tell
you who Kelly is.
Kelly is not only a wonderfulwoman and fierce friend, she has
also got years of experience inwomen's leadership.
She studies the Bible likenobody's business.
It is amazing to hear her talkabout the Word of God and she is
also an author.
She wrote this very cool book.
(01:04):
It is a Christian romance novelthat does not suck, called how
Can it Be?
I definitely commend it and Iknow, kelly, you have a copy of
it, so I'm going to have youhold it up.
So if you're not watching thisand you're only doing the
listening, you're missing thebeautiful cover of it all.
We'll talk about where you canfind it and how you can get it,
and a little bit more about itnear the end of our time
together.
(01:24):
So Kelly and I are going to talktoday about some scriptures and
the importance of understandingwhat they actually mean, and if
you listened to another recentepisode of the hey Tabby podcast
, you know that I talked aboutthe importance of biblical
literacy for healing, and Ithink that this conversation is
just going to keep going withthat in a lot of ways.
(01:44):
So first of all, welcome, kelly.
Thank you for being here.
Yeah, thank you so much forhaving me.
I'm so, so excited about this.
So tell me about the scripturethat kind of got us started on
this.
It is in the book of Proverbs.
Kelli Gaylean (02:00):
Well, it was more of a conversation that was
happening over and over.
I kept hearing people starttalking about marriage or
talking about relationships ormanhood or womanhood, and they
would start with the naggingwife.
They would start by saying theBible says that it is better to
die in the wilderness than tohave a nagging wife.
And so it became this thingthat got under my skin and I got
(02:24):
curious about it and I was justlike how much does it talk
about the nagging wife?
Because they would quote thatscripture and it's like, oh,
it's in the Bible, sure, it is,but like how many times is it in
the Bible and what does itactually say?
So I just was curious one dayand I looked and it's really
only nagging wife is only in theBible like three times.
(02:46):
They're all in Proverbs.
It's in Proverbs 21 a couple oftimes and it's in Proverbs 27
once.
So if you want to look atProverbs 21, in verse nine it
says and these are theseProverbs, these are like little
snippets of advice from a fatherto a son.
And so there's just chapterafter chapter of these little
(03:08):
pithy one-liners that are thewisdom that this man wants to
pass down to his son.
So Solomon says better to liveon the corner of a roof than to
share a house with a naggingwife.
And then later in verse 19, hesays better to live in a
wilderness than with a naggingand hot-tempered wife.
(03:31):
And so these in the Proverbs 27line is, it's very similar in
verse 15, an endless dripping ona rainy day and a nagging wife
are alike.
The one who controls hercontrols the wind and grasps oil
with his right hand.
It's like, basically, thiswoman is out of control and she
(03:53):
is relentlessly unpleasable.
I went to the dictionaryactually another great Bible
study tool and I looked up theword nag and there were a few
different definitions, like tobadger incessantly, things like
that, and I was just like so thenagging wife is relentlessly
unpleasable.
And so here is my like what hashonestly become my nightmare.
(04:15):
To be right, if my husband wasto be like you're just a nagging
wife, I would just will.
I would not recover from that.
It would hurt my feelings sobadly because it has been this
threat what if this is who youare?
And to be relentlesslyunpleasable.
And I was able to use the Bibleand that dictionary together and
(04:36):
say, oh, am I relentlesslyunpleasable?
No, I'm not.
I know that I am grateful formy husband and I am grateful for
the things that he does and Iam grateful for who he is and I
like him and I know that heknows that because I tell him
(04:57):
that I encourage him, I love him.
Well, we walk in partnership.
My husband is very welcoming ofme and of my voice and he
honestly has valued my voice,for I mean, we've been married
20 years this year and it's been20 years of him valuing me, of
him esteeming me, and so it waslike the truth actually just
(05:22):
destroyed that fear, justobliterated it, because it was
like, oh, that's not what I am.
I would have to change who I amin order to be a nagging wife,
and so that was a really sweetfreedom for me.
And then the Lord just gavethat to me, like I'm not the
only one married, I'm not theonly woman experiencing that,
(05:44):
I'm not the only one married,I'm not the only woman
experiencing that.
I'm not the only woman who hasthat fear, and I thought, well,
how can I help my sisters to see?
Tabitha Westbrook (05:52):
this is what that word means, and there's a
very low chance that that isactually you us up a little bit
because I think this is such agood discussion and you know
that relentlessly unpleasable isthe important factor there in
all of it, because the way thatthis gets taught often and the
(06:15):
way I've heard it since I was achild, is, well, you're just a
complainer or whiner, you'rejust asking too much.
And then men who are wickedwill say to their wives you're
not even allowed to make acomplaint because then you're a
nagging wife or you're like thedripping water one.
I've heard pastors over andover since, like desert storm,
(06:37):
call it being waterboarded byyour wife and I'm like, well,
thanks for that illustration,ick.
But that then says to a womanyou can't even make a complaint
and for wicked men that's aweaponized scripture.
So there are probably womenlistening to us right now who
are like I have had that usedagainst me.
They might actually noticetheir hearts racing and their
(06:59):
palms sweating and all of thesymptoms of a trauma trigger and
body activation.
Because it's been misinterpretedand what I liked that you
started off with this was one ofmy favorite things because I
heard you do it, but I'm goingto explain what you did.
You said if you understand theway the book of Proverbs is
written, which is step numberone in Bible study, right, and
(07:20):
you and I both know how to studythe Word of God.
Well, and that's something I'vetalked about on this podcast
was who wrote it?
To whom did they write it?
What were their purpose inwriting it?
And so you gave us that and itwas like, okay, here's the
context in which it was written,and I know that we have both
studied under Jen Wilkin and oneof the things that she says and
(07:41):
help me if I get this wrong,because I know you've heard it
probably more than I have but itwas written for them and for
then, for us and for always andfor me and for now.
Did I get that right?
I feel like I might have missedsomething.
Okay, so, looking at it incontext of what was it written
for?
And you gave us that.
So it was written by a man tohis son and their little pieces
(08:02):
of wisdom and principles and Iknow, with Proverbs in
particular, especially, train upa child in the way they should
go and when they are old theywill not depart from.
It was also weaponized, and soif you had a child that was wild
and out, then you must havedone something wrong, when in
reality, we just have free willand crap happens.
And these are principles and notthe letter of the law, and it's
(08:22):
almost like we want to make italchemy.
It's like we treat the Bibleand these proverbs sometimes as
if they are like spells that wecan cast over our families, and
so I think it really isimportant to start with who's it
to and why, what are we doinghere?
And then to really look at whatdoes it mean?
Because the language meanssomething, and if we look at
(08:44):
etymology of words, then we haveto figure out where they came
from, and I love that you werelike dictionary.
Let us look in the dictionary,which is a good Bible study tool
.
Kelli Gaylean (08:53):
All these years of training?
Tabitha Westbrook (08:55):
Yes, it's a beautiful thing, though, because
the other thing that you saidis the truth set me free, and I
believe there's a correspondingscripture which is you will know
the truth and the truth shallset you free.
And I believe there's acorresponding scripture which is
you will know the truth, andthe truth shall set you free,
definitely, and it does.
And it sets you free fromoppression and tyranny.
So if someone is using thatscripture as tyranny, as
(09:16):
oppression, then I would notwant to be them at the end of
days, if they don't repent, I'llbe honest because they are
oppressing their spouse.
Kelli Gaylean (09:24):
Right, and I think it also sets you free to
reasonableness.
Am I asking for somethingunreasonable?
Are my expectations reasonable?
Here, and I think that I meanobviously the beginning of
Proverbs, solomon is talkingabout the value of wisdom, and
then he just has these littlesmall statements of all of the
wisdom that I have.
(09:44):
It's like that last big pushbefore you launch your child to
send them to college or to goand live on their own as an
adult.
Did I do enough?
Did I say everything?
Well, solomon wrote it all down, or probably had one of his
many scribes write it down forhim.
But what is that wisdom Like?
That wisdom is in you, throughthe Holy Spirit.
And so what does that wisdomsay?
(10:06):
Are you being unreasonable whenyou invite your husband in a
conversation?
Are you being unreasonable whenyou ask your husband to partner
with you in something?
I think that that reallyprotects our mind right and that
truth of what is reasonable andwhat is not.
Tabitha Westbrook (10:24):
Absolutely.
And I think that for survivorsbecause their voice was often
silenced using scriptures justlike this that when they get out
they can also go to the otherend of the pendulum and just
very much be demanding andunpleasable, and not
intentionally it is a traumaresponse of like you're not
going to get me again, right,and I get that.
(10:45):
And I think sometimes, aspeople are looking at things and
couples are trying to workthrough stuff, asking what makes
sense here, where could this becoming from?
How did we get here?
What makes this make sense, canbe really helpful.
And it is a good place to checkour hearts.
Just because we're a survivor ofabuse potentially and I know
not everybody listening is butfor those who are, and that is
(11:05):
the trauma that you experiencedthen you can have an extreme
reaction and that is your ownheart that is trying to
self-protect and I get it ahundred percent because abuse is
not fun and no one wants to dothat again.
But also to then be able to sayam I unpleasable?
Which is like nothing is good,right, like unpleasable is.
Well, you brought home Swisscheese and it wasn't baby Swiss
(11:28):
cheese, and I really wanted thelacy Swiss cheese from Boar's
Head and you are therefore aterrible spouse.
And it's like, well, unlessthey're like bringing home the
wrong Swiss cheese as a way tolike pick at you and torture you
, which some coercivecontrollers do I've known many
that will bring home things thattheir spouse legitimately can't
eat because they have celiacsor something, and tell them
starve or suffer, and so if it'sthat, then clearly we have a
(11:52):
pattern of power and control,right.
But if it's, they just made amistake at the store and I'll
switch cheese, I'll switchcheese to them.
That's not wickedness, it'sjust it's a different cheese,
but yeah.
Kelli Gaylean (12:03):
So when we look at these things and go, where's
my heart at and I do think thatis such an important thing for
us, whether we are a survivor ornot to ask oh, for sure, for
sure, and I think that that islike I would say, that most
women, whenever they want totalk with their husbands,
they're not like waiting untiltheir husband is exhausted and
(12:26):
beat down and a shell of himselfat the end of the day, just so
that they can get their way.
It's really easy to be like, oh, you're just being manipulative
.
Well, that's not true.
You know, I think whenever we'reloving our spouse well, we are
considering their environmentthat they have just come from
and if they are in a good placeto talk about this.
And that's what I've had tolearn over a long time, like
(12:48):
practicing that awareness oflearning my husband and what
time of day is a good time ofday to talk about things,
because he works really hard allday long and when he gets home
he's exhausted.
And then the children areprecious, sweet, relentless
little babies and we get them tobed and then it's like, oh,
let's just take a second.
(13:08):
And if I was just like all onhim, like why did you do this?
But you know, that would be onething, but that's not reality
and I don't think that that isreality for a lot of people.
Tabitha Westbrook (13:21):
So it just kind of helped.
Right, and there is a way tobring up things.
You know that is healthy whenI'm working with couples, and so
if I'm doing couples work, itis with a marriage that is
disappointing or difficult.
Right, things didn't go asplanned, expectations weren't
met, there's a cancer diagnosisthose are the ones I want to see
.
Or like, hey, man, we got sointo raising our kids, we
(13:42):
stopped being friends.
I will counsel that all daylong and six days on Sundays.
I mean, we'll have fun with it,my version.
But when it is wisdom and youtalked about the wisdom in
Proverbs, right, and it saysseek her, seek her in the street
.
She's calling to you and askfor wisdom.
James says ask for wisdom andit will be given to you
liberally and without reproach.
And I think there is wisdom inwhen we have conversations and
(14:05):
that is not manipulative, thatis wise.
If I know I need to have adifficult conversation and you
are super, super tired and thisis whether it's a spouse, a
friend, a kid, anybody then it'snot the right time because
they're just not going to have awide enough window of tolerance
or the capacity.
And so I want to time it to sayhey, when this happened, I felt
hurt, or I'm really curiousabout this, or hey, I'd really
(14:28):
like to go to Disney World, likeeven that a conversation that
isn't challenging or confrontingis still best done with wisdom
and that doesn't make youunpleasable and even levying
complaints.
And so for the sisterslistening to us who have been
told well, to say anything thatyou don't like is being a nag
(14:49):
and it's like no, if they'reconsistently neglectful, if they
are consistently doing thingsthat are not helpful or are
harmful, you absolutely shouldbring that up.
That's appropriate, becauserelationships are mutual.
They are not dominated by oneor the other.
Relationships are mutual, theyare not dominated by one or the
other.
And I would imagine that whenyou bring up things that you are
needing your husband to addresslike hey, this wasn't good for
(15:09):
me that he hears you because youare not a relentlessly
unpleasable wife.
Kelli Gaylean (15:16):
I think everything is connected right,
and so an environment of safetyinvites conversation, and that
is something that I haveexperienced in a really good way
, and so I think that's how doyou create that environment if
it has not been what you'veexperienced before?
Tabitha Westbrook (15:34):
Right.
I mean I think your spouse isactually safe so you guys can
have those difficultconversations.
He does not lord it over you.
We were talking before we gotstarted and one of the things
that you talked about that Ithink is so beautiful is that he
loves your flourishing.
He does not find you too much,he does not find you too big, he
(15:57):
finds you precious and hedelights in all of who you are,
lights in all of who you are.
Even the things that areprobably and like man, we all
have them right Like the thingsthat were super cute when we
were dating somebody are likenot super cute once.
We marry them after maybe sixmonths or a year and we're like
dude.
No, but love can even grow inthose quirky spaces and he, he
(16:19):
lets you be you and I think thatis one of the things.
Like he doesn't stifle you, atleast not that I've ever seen,
or not that you've ever told me.
Kelli Gaylean (16:28):
I grew up in a home where my dad was a squasher
and that was really hard torecover from and I think I just
had a terrible expectation ofwhat it was going to be like to
be married to a man.
So I I was like nervous to getmarried.
I mean I could not have helpedmyself.
I was so in love with Joe andGallion, but I was nervous about
(16:51):
that.
What is it going to be like tobe married to a man?
Is he going to become this?
And so I was guarded a littlebit at first in marriage, and
that has something that,honestly, has only grown.
At first it was oh, I delightin you because of this or that,
oh, you're beautiful, I don'tknow.
Three, four years I've hadopportunities to disciple women
(17:17):
and speak and do and write abook.
I mean things that are like wayoutside of my comfort zone, and
I just cannot even tell you howencouraging and sweet it has
been for him to not even flinch.
He has just celebrated everysecond of it, like, yes, do it
(17:38):
Go.
I'm so proud of you.
You did amazing at this.
I loved what you said.
My husband is not a loud man.
He's quiet, just by nature.
He's an introvert, little shy,sweet, sweet personality, but he
is stubborn and deep and hefeels things really deeply and
so he is so worth waiting for.
(18:00):
But you have to let it cook andlet him draw it out a little
bit, a little bit at a time, andthat is very different, because
I'm I'll just be like a splat,like hey, here I am, and so it
has been so neat, like thisthing that I have worried about.
Hey, here I am is so loud andcan feel other people might
(18:21):
think it's obnoxious Am I toomuch?
And he's like no, you keep ongoing.
He loves it and that has beenone of the sweetest gifts of
these last few years.
I mean, we're in our 40s.
I think once you hit your 40syou feel like you're on the
downward and it has been so coolto see him just be like
absolutely yes, all the way.
Tabitha Westbrook (18:44):
Which I think is just absolutely beautiful
and the way good marriages areright.
It doesn't mean that you guysdon't ever have difficulty or
challenges or any of that we alldo, but the fact that he just
celebrates your flourishing isso good he's not threatened by
it.
Kelli Gaylean (19:02):
It's not about him, right?
Tabitha Westbrook (19:04):
It's not a reflection on him Right, it
doesn't diminish it.
Yeah, one of the things I sayoften is I will not bow to a man
who is afraid that their lightis going to be dimmed.
But also, they don't have todim their light, right, because
we can all shine brightly in theway that God created us,
(19:27):
whether that's introverted,extroverted, more forward-facing
, less forward-facing, right.
The body of Christ has a lot ofparts and they all matter, but
I don't have to dim my light, soI mean we'll feel better.
The good men, the men who aresecure in Christ and secure in
who they are created to be, aregoing to celebrate it and
they're going to shine brightlyas well, and that is a really
(19:48):
beautiful thing.
And it isn't about who'swinning, it's about are we
loving well, are we flourishing?
Are we following God?
What are we doing?
How are we raising our babies,if we have babies, or how are we
raising our fur babies?
That can also be hotlycontended sometimes you know,
yeah.
But you know, I think that isthe beauty, though, also of
(20:08):
understanding that scripture,because then you don't have to
play soft with your spouseeither.
Like you said that that set youfree, like when you understood,
like, oh, I'm not that woman.
First of all, that we are allafraid to be that woman means it
has been language very poorly.
Yeah, we should always want tobe holy.
The scripture calls us to that.
But the fact that, like it isthe worst thing that we could do
(20:30):
as a female is say stuff isconcerning, because God gave us
voices.
We are made image bearers ofthe living God, just like men,
and we are evidencing some pieceof the character of Christ in
ourselves, and so using ourvoice is very much different
than being relentlesslyunpleasable.
Kelli Gaylean (20:50):
And when scripture is misused like that,
we miss out on the goodness thatcan be in the body of Christ
that is carried by women likeDeborah, who was in this strong
(21:15):
leadership position and she tookcare of business and she
encouraged the people around herand she walked in wisdom and
she was a huge, valuable part ofthe nation of Israel and cared
for them as a mother and Icelebrate that so much and I'm
so grateful for that.
But I also think about, likethe women who are not mentioned
quite as much.
But I also think about, likethe women who are not mentioned
(21:36):
quite as much, but how they arementioned.
And they saw a need and theyfulfilled it.
They saw their need and theyasked for what they needed.
Jael saw a need, she sawopportunity and she took care of
it.
She ended the tyranny of Siseraterrorizing the women of Israel
(21:57):
and also the men, when I thinkof, like the daughters of
Zelophehad.
They saw a need.
They saw, oh, we're not goingto be cared for if we don't ask
for what we need.
And so they went and they askedin a respectful, kind way, but
also they said, hey, this is aneed and we're here, we have a
(22:17):
need.
They weren't afraid to speak up.
I feel like Mary Magdalene didthat.
She was so broken.
She was so broken and her needwas right there and she went.
When she found a place that herneed could be fulfilled, she
went to him, she went to Christ.
We had Rahab.
(22:38):
She saw that the Lord was rightthere and when she had the
opportunity she grabbed onto himand she professed that he is
the Lord and she did not holdback.
We have Michael, who was socourageous and had a really hard
time, but she did what wasneeded in the moment for David,
(23:00):
and then it didn't pay.
He took her from the nexthusband and it made her so
bitter.
And it's like show up, show up,because when we ask for what we
need, nine times out of ten theLord is right there, ready to
meet us, and when we don't, wesuffer in bitterness.
Tabitha Westbrook (23:22):
Right, absolutely.
And there are so many differentpresentations, like you're
saying, of women in Scripture,and we do tend to talk about the
stronger ones, like the Ruthand the Deborah and all of that,
but there are millions who areunnamed and the Deborah and all
of that, but there are millionswho are unnamed and they are
still part of that great cloudof witnesses.
And I think about that and Ithink about who are the women
(23:43):
that we see in our lives nowthat are part of that great
cloud, that are serving andfollowing faithfully, and not
the ones who are being doormats.
We got to get them out, man.
That's not cool.
Jesus did not say thou shalt bea doormat in an abusive
relationship or coercivelycontrolling relationship.
That is not what he's asking.
That is not suffering forChrist.
That's baloney, frankly.
But there are many wonderfulwomen that we can look to and
(24:08):
say they are loving well,they're faithful.
They are part of that greatcloud of witnesses.
Some are going to be morespeaky-uppy than others and some
are going to be more quiet thanothers, and we need them all.
We need them all.
Kelli Gaylean (24:23):
But it's not a crime to see a need and meet it,
and it's not a crime to see aneed in your own life and ask
for it Right in your own lifeand ask for it Right, especially
if you have someone whopromised the Lord he was going
to be your partner until he dies.
You promised the Lord he wasgoing to love you until he dies.
(24:43):
Like that, that should,hopefully, is a safe person to
ask for those things.
Tabitha Westbrook (24:50):
Right, I mean it says that you're supposed to
love your wife like you loveyour own body.
You're supposed to not hurtyour wife.
Speak harshly to your wife Likethere's a lot said about how to
treat a wife in scripture.
Frankly, you know quite a lotmore than is said about how to
treat a husband, incidentallyand not that we shouldn't treat
spouses, friends, everyone, withhonor and respect Right, we
should absolutely do that.
We are supposed to treat othersthe way that we ourselves want
(25:11):
to be treated.
We are supposed to be holy, forthe Lord is holy.
We are supposed to be servantsand power under or power with,
never power over, as humans.
Right, submit one to another isin Ephesians before the whole.
Submit to your husband's verse,and there's just a lot of
goodness when the body of Christfunctions the way God intended
and we don't distort scripture.
(25:32):
And that is like one of themost important reasons to
understand it for yourself,because then no one can use it
against you, no one canweaponize it.
I think if I can't imagine thisever coming out of your
husband's mouth, to be honest,if he was just like, oh my gosh,
you're being the nagging wife,you'd be like I am not, because
I know what that means.
So how do we help pastorsBecause?
(25:54):
So how do we help pastors?
Because, man, I grew up in thechurch.
I've been in multipledenominations over time.
This is not singledenominational issue, right,
this is like the evangelicalchurch of America, to be honest,
and maybe other places, but I'monly familiar with America.
How do we help pastors?
Maybe language it differently,because I know you and I have
both heard for half of foreverfrom all kinds of pastors oh,
(26:16):
don't be the nagging wife, or ifyour wife is nagging you, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
How do you?
How do we help them?
Maybe language it differentlyand not have a joke that
actually could be destructive.
Kelli Gaylean (26:28):
Oh man, I think at this point, I think it's a
bad Christian habit.
It's like one of those thingsthat has gone on for so long
that it's just comfortable and,I think, taking our thoughts
captive and actually asking like, well, what is this word that
I'm saying?
What does this word mean?
I think so many times we thinka word means something and it
(26:48):
doesn't, or we will just getstuff wrong.
I use the wrong song lyrics allthe time and my daughter is
like Mama, no, well, that's so,or I'll say a word and I'll mean
something else, you know, andso when you're talking about
nagging, you might think thatyou mean one thing, but this is
what that definition actuallymeans, and it's really harsh.
(27:10):
It's good for us to hold thatwith an open hand and give them
a benefit of the doubt.
These men are not saying thisbecause they hate women.
They're saying this because ithas been ingrained in them that
this is the way to communicateabout this, and so I think it's
really valuable to just ask theLord what would you have me say?
And something that I reallyappreciated was I was at a
(27:33):
church service a few weeks agoand every single person who
stood up and spoke and saidanything.
None of it was about them, noneof it was about a joke and
self-aggrandizement.
It was about the Lord, it wasabout Jesus and what he has done
for us, and that was soencouraging to me.
And I think, if that is how Ican live my life, I think just
(27:57):
letting the word do the work,you know, letting the love of
Jesus do its work in me anddisentangle those webs of deceit
and bad habits.
And just what I want for my ownself in my own life.
When I walk in that churchbuilding, I want the people
(28:20):
around me to feel welcomed by me.
I want them to feel the welcomeof Christ in me and in our
church home as a church family.
And so if I can contribute tothat, then Lord, let that be
true, let me do that.
And if I am doing somethingthat is not contributing to it,
then Lord, show me and help meopen my blind eyes and show me
(28:42):
my blind spots and help me tosee what I can do better, what I
need to leave behind in my ownheart absolutely, and I think
that sometimes it is good forpastors and leaders to just ask
how might this be heard?
Tabitha Westbrook (29:00):
How might this be heard and I know that I
can feel it now from somepastors, are you kidding me?
Like everything could beweaponized?
Yes, facts, but there arethings that are more weaponized
than others.
In fact, there are, likemultiple books called Untwisting
Scriptures by Rebecca Davisthat do that, because scriptures
get weaponized, and there aresome for abuse and coercive
(29:21):
control that are frequent.
The Nagging Wife is one of them.
The Verses in Ephesians GodHates Divorce which we all know
does not actually say it thatway.
Kelli Gaylean (29:29):
It makes you want to stab yourself in the eye.
More than that.
Tabitha Westbrook (29:32):
Right, it does make me want to take the
fork.
Yes, and for those who couldn'tsee, if you're just listening
to this, the eye roll that wejust got was epic and I love it
so much.
And, yes, it is absolutely notgetting edited out, because
you're a woman after my ownheart and I love it so much.
And we should roll our eyeslike so hard they almost stick
when Scripture is misinterpretedbecause it distorts the heart
(29:54):
of God, and so if there are onesthat are more tricky and
weaponized than others, then Ithink pastors should just go.
You know, if this statistic istrue, that one in three
relationships in my church notjust in the world in my church
are or have been or will becoercively controlling and
(30:15):
abusive, then one third of themen or women anybody, because
anybody can abuse or becoercively controlling then I
need to just say this isn't whatthis means.
Kelli Gaylean (30:28):
I think that's the key, like, knowledge is
power, right Education iseverything.
So asking why practicing thatlifelong learning?
You know, yeah, if God hatesdivorce, why does he hate
divorce?
Well, what did he make when hemade marriage?
They were naked and they werenot ashamed.
They were walking inpartnership, they were working
(30:48):
together and it's like wherethere is perfect trust, there is
perfect freedom.
And we saw that in the garden.
And who orchestrated that?
Who made that?
God did, and so when he madethat and it was marriage, of
course he hates divorce, butwhat he loves is what he made.
(31:09):
And a person in a marriagehacking away at the personhood
of the other person in themarriage and defaming the name
of God, the image of God in themevery day for the rest of their
lives.
God definitely hates that.
Tabitha Westbrook (31:24):
Yep, and he came to set the captives free.
One of the things that inadvocacy class that we talk
about pretty often is that Godhas a lot more to say about
oppression than he does aboutjust about anything else.
There's a lot, and that hedoesn't say just suck it up and
be oppressed.
The first thing Jesus reads inthe temple when he unrolls that
(31:45):
scroll is in the book of Isaiah.
I came to make the blind seeand the lame walk in the ears
here and set the captives free.
That's right.
And so when we look at the wholecounsel of the word of God
which is again where biblicalliteracy is so important If you
look at the entirety, such aclear picture.
(32:05):
Even the stuff that you're likethat is wild and I don't know
what's happening in Ezekiel orparts of Revelation and some of
Daniel, like there's some stuffwhere you're like that is some
imagery.
I'm gonna have to study that abit more.
But the whole counsel of theword of God points to being set
free from sin, from oppression,from death, and points us to
(32:27):
Jesus.
And I think when pastors inparticular and elders and
teachers lean into that, goddoes say that he holds teachers
to a higher standard, which, assomeone who teaches women and
teaches as part of therapy Imean you're always doing some
sort of education Like this ispotentially teaching.
I'm terrified that I would nothandle the word of God well If I
(32:51):
am quaking in my boots.
I would hope that every pastorwho does this every single
Saturday, sunday, monday,whenever you have church,
wednesday, tuesday, I don't knowthat they would be terrified to
not lean into the word in theway that the Lord would have us.
And so that's just, I think mythought on it for pastors is
always be teachable.
I do know wonderful pastors whoare very humble men of God,
(33:14):
even if they have big churches.
And I think sometimes largechurches do get a bad rap and
there's a lot of reason for it.
But some are very, very goodand some are very not, and some
small churches are very, verygood and some are very not, and
it really comes down to thehumility of those in leadership.
Are you teachable?
Are you willing to say I gotthis wrong or I misunderstood,
or I used something flippantlythat harmed inadvertently and
(33:37):
gave someone with a wicked heartammunition?
Kelli Gaylean (33:41):
Look, my pastor said, and to just know how your
words could be heard and that'ssuch a good point like just to
not let yourself growcomfortable, right, because that
comfort is so insidious.
It's like you know that pac,that the serpent.
Tabitha Westbrook (34:02):
Yep, absolutely, and it is so
refreshing for people and itreally does bring people to a
place of like.
Oh, I'm safe enough to questionhere and wrestle here when we
make it a safe place foreveryone, make it not a safe
(34:24):
place for wickedness and not asafe place for domination and
all the shenanigans, but we makeit a safe place to be changed
and to grow and to be loved welland to let the Holy Spirit bear
weight through the word of God,on us, like.
When we do that and it startswith humility and leadership,
man, you're going to see thebody of Christ flourish, because
men and women are going to befree to be who they were created
(34:44):
to be and scripture is notgoing to be used to keep people
in a box.
Kelli Gaylean (34:49):
Yeah, definitely, and I think so much of this
when evil does prey on thedefenseless or the voiceless or
the beat down, so much of thatstarts.
We have a desire to please God.
Right, it's like that desire toplease God is so pure and
(35:09):
something that can happen reallyeasily when scripture is used
in a manipulative way is like,oh well, this is what pleases
God.
And so we can cherry pick thoseverses and say, oh, this is
what pleases God or that is whatpleases God.
And you see that in judges alot, that the people of Israel,
they would start worshiping theway that the Canaanites
(35:29):
worshiped, but it was for God,it was for Yahweh.
It's like, no, no, that doesn'tplease God.
And so once again we're back tothe story of scripture, like,
what does God say?
How is he characterized throughthe entire Bible and what
really legitimately pleases him?
Because he tells you over andover again like he doesn't want
(35:53):
a sacrifice, he wants a contriteheart, he wants your motive to
be pure, he wants you to beflourishing in health and in
wisdom and walking with him toknow him.
And you see that all throughscripture.
But it's too easy to get boggeddown in one or two verses that
(36:14):
trip you up and then you're justdown and you're like, oh, I
can't get out of this.
Yeah, you can, god is knowable,he, you can.
Yep, god is knowable.
He's not just lovable, he isknowable.
And the more that you know him,the greater your love will grow
.
Tabitha Westbrook (36:30):
Absolutely.
I know my own life has bornethat out, I think yours has as
well that there is just suchgoodness, and I think that is
what makes me such a lover ofthe word.
I am a lover of God because I'ma lover of his word and I'm a
lover of how I see him in it.
And I told the story, when Italked about the need for
(36:51):
biblical literacy, of a wickedpastor that dared me to read the
Bible cover to cover, and itwas what ended up being his
undoing, because as I grew inChrist and as I grew in my
knowledge of the word, I waslike wait a second.
And I don't think that was whathe thought would happen.
I don't think he would havedared me, but that really was
(37:12):
because the word of God boreweight on me and I was like wait
a second.
The qualifications of pastor andelder are this and you are.
This is not it.
Also, can we talk about thefruit of the spirit?
Because one of them isgentleness and kindness and, bro
, you aren't.
And that gave me, through thepower of the Holy Spirit in me,
the ability to go no, I will not.
I have questions.
(37:32):
And that enables me now to bothlove my brother's well and my
sister's well and to invite usall deeper into the word and to
point us all to Jesus, which isamazing and beautiful.
As we wrap up this part,because I definitely want to
talk about your book what wouldyou encourage women to do Like I
(37:57):
know you're a lover of Biblestudy.
What would you encourage awoman who maybe is a little bit
scared, has had thingsweaponized?
How would you encourage her tostep in and find this goodness?
Kelli Gaylean (38:09):
I think, something I've actually recently
heard.
Actually, I heard Jen Wilkinssay this at a conference.
She said you're not going tolearn something about God that
is disappointing to you, likeyou're not going to learn
something true about God.
That is disappointing becauseGod is infinitely good, and so I
think that that is.
(38:29):
It can just be a fearful thing,like when his word has been
weaponized against you.
We can fear the Lord in thewrong way, and reading scripture
is what will build the rightfear of the Lord.
The fear of the Lord is thebeginning of wisdom, and so we
want to do that rightly, and soseeing him for who he really is
in his word is a huge part ofthat.
(38:52):
So to go to the scripture andnot be afraid, you know, I would
definitely encourage you toread it literately, to know who
it's written for and what wasgoing on at that time, and see
the context, but also look forthe Lord.
That's why I love the Biblerecap.
I think Terry Lee Cobble does agreat job of setting the stage
(39:14):
and saying so.
This is what was going on atthat time and this is what these
scholars, this is how theyinterpret this, and then these
scholars will also interpret itthis way.
And so you have just this akind friend coming alongside of
you and lifting your gaze sayingthis is my God shot today.
This is what I saw God do today.
This is the truth about Godtoday, and I think just building
(39:37):
that habit has beenlife-changing for me in my walk
with the Lord.
But I think I've had to learnthe hard way that there are
things in the Bible I don'tunderstand and I need help to
understand them.
And that's okay, that's not anindictment on me, that's not
lazy, I'm not dumb, I just needhelp learning.
(39:59):
And so there's a lot ofwonderful resources out there
for that.
So I would say approach thescripture without fear.
You know, see what it says foryourself.
If you read through Genesis,through the first couple of
chapters, and you see that itreally is all Eve's fault and
women can never be trusted again, then more power to you.
(40:21):
But that is not what I see andthat's not what a lot of people
who have spent a lot of moneybecoming theological scholars
see.
You know, people are not goingto give their lives to studying
something so that they can tellyou the wrong thing, hopefully.
Tabitha Westbrook (40:40):
Right?
No, they're not, not unlessthey're real silly.
Kelli Gaylean (40:43):
But also, prayer is so valuable.
Prayer is such a huge part ofthe christian life.
I feel like the lord isinviting me into prayer all over
the place.
In my life right now I haveteenager.
That's that'll kickstart things.
Well, you know, it's like the.
Your prayer life is somethingto really steward and really
lean into and not be afraid, butto go to the Lord with open
(41:06):
hands and just tell him like Ineed you.
I'm willing to dedicate thisday to you.
I'm willing to dedicate my lifeto you and I want to become
what you have for me.
But this cannot be it.
I need you to show me the way,and so to wait for him, to like
really wait on him and go to himand talk with him and invite
(41:28):
him to talk to you.
I think that is something thatI'm learning right now is so
valuable.
Also like to give the benefitof the doubt.
You know, I think, that we wantto protect ourselves so badly
and that the protection if thebest way to feel protected for
me is to feel control that well,I know exactly where that came
from.
I know exactly what he means bythat, and then that is also
(41:51):
shut down, and maybe I'm notcalling him a nag are wise, but
also opening my heart to wisevoices and trying to heal from
that pain and that ache and thatsuspicion, because that
(42:12):
bitterness is not going tobenefit you, it's not going to
benefit your children, it's onlygoing to benefit the enemy.
Tabitha Westbrook (42:19):
Right the enemy Right.
Yeah, I will say, whensurvivors are especially new at
surviving and being out ofvictim, that letting go of
bitterness does not meanengaging in a relationship with
someone destructive.
Exactly, definitely.
So you can let go of bitternessand also not be their friend,
talk to them, be in relationshipin any way, you know.
So just saying that for people,because I think sometimes
(42:40):
people are like oh no, becauseso many women like want to do
the right thing and it's alreadyreally hard.
But also bitterness is keepingyou from healthy relationships.
Right, because you have beenharmed and you're afraid it will
happen again.
You know, this is where thewisdom of the Holy Spirit really
does come to bear.
There are good men, oh, I know.
Kelli Gaylean (42:58):
The benefit of the doubt.
I was saying maybe the benefitof the doubt for a new person.
Tabitha Westbrook (43:09):
Right.
No, totally agree.
I think it's such the middlepath right, because we need to
learn how to find those safepeople.
We can't just walk aroundthinking there aren't any.
It's not truth.
I have amazing brothers andsisters in Christ and amazing
brothers Like I am not bitter atall against men.
I love my brothers and I alsolove wicked men enough to call
them to repentance, and so I'mnot going to be in relationship
(43:29):
with them.
I am going to call them torepentance.
I am going to speak the truthin love, but I am also going to
be very careful, because of thework that I do, that not all men
are that way.
Right, I like that, I think.
Kelli Gaylean (43:42):
That's really valuable and that's something
that I am.
I am learning like I'm totallypreaching to myself there.
It's so easy to just paint allmen with one brush for me and to
just walk in with suspicion.
Only suspicion and that'ssomething I have learned very
slowly over time is that it ispossible to encounter men who
(44:03):
want the same thing that youwant, who want the word of God
to be the thing that bears ontheir life the most, who want to
know God, who want everyonearound them to know God and to
be able to flourish in that anduse their voice and have a
presence there and use theirgifts and lead.
Tabitha Westbrook (44:25):
that is something I'm like very slowly
discovering on my own healingjourney yes, and I just will
note you've been in a wonderfulmarriage for 20 years and there
are still moments from your past, as you're talking about it
right now, that are still stillbeing healed even now, and so
we're in my car trouble.
Kelli Gaylean (44:45):
Nothing.
Tabitha Westbrook (44:46):
Right, and I mean, like that's the normal of
healing, right, there are onionlayers that we don't even know
are there until God peels oneback and we're like, oh yeah, I
got to work on that.
Thanks Jesus, here we go, andthat is such a good thing, right
, and that's OK.
So I want to normalize that too, because it is beautiful.
You can have that both, and itis the now and the not yet, and
(45:06):
we can trust God for all of it,which is super beautiful.
And I think I will just callour sisters into an invitation
of get into the word and the oneI did on biblical literacy.
The Jesus Storybook Bible is agreat place to start, if that's
where you got to start, and justinvite yourself to see the face
of real, actual Jesus.
(45:27):
And for our pastor, friendsthat might be listening, please
listen.
If someone comes to you andsays, hey, that could be heard
in a certain way, don't just belike, oh my gosh, I can't,
please everybody Just say hey.
I wonder if more than oneperson might have felt this and
maybe I could just make asentence like hey, this is what
this means and I don't want tobe flippant about harm, that's
(45:48):
it, that's all really survivorseven ask honestly.
They just don't hand weapons tolike the people who are harming
them, and so just I would justencourage us all to like lead
with love and kindness in how wewalk, and I think that's the
way of the.
Kelli Gaylean (46:03):
Lord anyway, and I think acknowledging those
people is really valuable,really valuable acknowledging
that, like the people thatyou're preaching to don't all
look like you or think like youor have the same experiences
that you do.
You know, if you are white,male, middle-class preacher out
in the comfortable burbs ofAmerica and there are single
women and men, there are youngwomen and men, there are older
(46:26):
women and men, there are marriedand divorced and widowed.
I mean there's all differentpeople, and so I think that is
really valuable just to are youseeing them in your day-to-day
life?
Tabitha Westbrook (46:42):
Right, absolutely.
So let's talk about this bookof yours, ma'am.
It is such a lovely book and Iam not.
I do not like romance novels, Ido not like fiction for the
most part, but I loved your book, and so that is saying
something that is like highpraise on my end.
But tell me what inspired youto write it?
Kelli Gaylean (47:05):
You know I love reading.
I've always read.
I was a teacher in our otherlife, before we had kids, and so
I've just always been a readerand I loved writing, teaching
writing when I was in theclassroom and stuff.
I've been in Bible study since2010 now, and so I've been
leading groups since 2011.
And I've been coordinating thesmall group leaders for years
now, and so I've just heard alot of women's stories in those
(47:30):
groups.
Those single gender learningenvironments, those are the
places where women are going tofeel safe to open up and share
or to build relationships wherethey could open up and share,
and so I just had heard so manyof the sad stories of women, and
there are just these recurringthemes.
If you have a group of 10 women, you're definitely going to
have somebody who has had aneating disorder.
(47:51):
You're going to have somebodywho has not been safe in her
home.
You're going to have somebodywho has had an abortion.
You're going to have somebodywho struggled with infertility.
You're going to have thesedifficult things.
And so I think I just saw womenand I saw during the pandemic
how easy it was to just setaside someone whose story is
(48:14):
inconvenient for you at the time.
And so it was, all of thesethings were bearing on me and I
was just thinking, and you sitat dinner and you look around
the restaurant and there's oh,they must be on a first date.
Oh it's awkward.
You kind of like make up yourown story.
And so I just kind of made up astory in my mind.
It was like it stuck with me.
I couldn't get away from it.
And so I thought I mean I couldtry.
(48:37):
I mean I could just try.
And so I did.
And then I kept going.
I had a couple of friends who Iasked to read it.
I was like I had 10 pages andthey read it and I was like, is
it complete trash?
And these were people who, likethey're in my book club, we all
read, we all love to read.
So I knew that they would tellme the truth.
(48:57):
And they were like, no, I thinkyou should keep going.
And they were like, no, I thinkyou should keep going.
And so I did, and eventually Ihad a whole book and the Lord
has been really kind about it.
He's been really sweet to justlet it land in the right hands
and hopefully just encourage thepeople who have read it.
The feedback has actually beenreally good, which is amazing.
(49:18):
I mean I don't know what I'mdoing.
This is my first novel, whichis amazing.
I mean I don't know what I'mdoing.
This is my first novel.
It's my first book.
I've never done this before, soI definitely made a lot of
rookie mistakes.
But it's out there.
It's on Amazon right now.
You can buy it.
It's on Kindle, it's inpaperback.
It actually has two coversbecause of a rookie mistake that
(49:39):
I made, but this is one of them.
It's called how Can it Be, andit is the story of a woman named
Mia, whose parents forced herto have an abortion after a wild
weekend in college and sheexperienced a fallout from that,
the trauma and the grief, andthis story picks up 10 years
later.
So she has done a lot of therapy.
She has actually come to faiththrough a coworker and friend.
(50:03):
So she shows up one Sunday atchurch and she sees that they
have a new worship minister andit turns out that it's the guy
who got her pregnant 10 yearsago.
They are just kind of throwntogether a lot through, like
different volunteeropportunities and things, and so
he's just always there.
So she can't just avoid him.
They actually become friendsand eventually fall in love.
(50:28):
But telling him about theabortion is part of that and his
response and his own pain andtrauma and how he came to the
Lord years after meeting her thefirst time, and so it's just
honestly.
It's a story about the love ofGod and how we are never too far
(50:48):
from him to be able to be saved.
Tabitha Westbrook (50:51):
Yeah, and it's not like smarmy, stupid
romance novel, right when you'rejust like it's a Hallmark movie
with a bow on it and we alreadyknow the plot.
It's not like that, which Iloved, like you can have
Hallmark, go watch it atChristmas, but go read Kelly's
book.
How can it be?
Because it is really good andit's just a nice.
It doesn't sanitize in ways.
(51:13):
It's just good, it's real.
And look, if you don't thinkthat two people who once knew
each other can get throwntogether in Christian ministry,
you have not done Christianministry because, man, I've seen
that.
So many times.
The number of times I've hadsomebody sit in front of me and
we are all just six degrees ofKevin Bacon, let's be honest,
especially in the church man.
So the number of times I'm like, oh all right, and that is the
(51:36):
exact kind of story, is veryhigh.
So it is very realistic and Ireally enjoyed it.
I really would recommend it.
It is such a great book.
We're going into beach season.
I think it is a great beachseason book.
Or, if you are more of amountain person, it's also a
great mountain season book.
Like, your level of pasty willdictate where you end up for
your summer vacations, I'm sure,but wherever you go, take it
(51:59):
with you, read it, tell yourfriends and, kelly, thank you
for being here with me, fortalking about this stuff with me
and for just who you are as ahuman being.
I am grateful for you, I'mgrateful to know you, I am
grateful that God said our pathsshould cross, and just thanks
for hanging out and talkingabout Jesus and his word with me
today.
Kelli Gaylean (52:18):
Me too.
I love you so much, friend.
Thanks for having me.
Tabitha Westbrook (52:23):
You today.
Me too.
I love you so much, friend.
Thanks for having me.
You're so welcome.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we
talk about the hard things outloud with our actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
I am super stoked for thisweek's episode of hey Tabby.
I am here with my good friend,kelly Galleon, and we are going
(00:44):
to talk about some awesomethings, but first I want to tell
you who Kelly is.
Kelly is not only a wonderfulwoman and fierce friend, she has
also got years of experience inwomen's leadership.
She studies the Bible likenobody's business.
It is amazing to hear her talkabout the Word of God and she is
also an author.
She wrote this very cool book.
(01:04):
It is a Christian romance novelthat does not suck, called how
Can it Be?
I definitely commend it and Iknow, kelly, you have a copy of
it, so I'm going to have youhold it up.
So if you're not watching thisand you're only doing the
listening, you're missing thebeautiful cover of it all.
We'll talk about where you canfind it and how you can get it,
and a little bit more about itnear the end of our time
together.
(01:24):
So Kelly and I are going to talktoday about some scriptures and
the importance of understandingwhat they actually mean, and if
you listened to another recentepisode of the hey Tabby podcast
, you know that I talked aboutthe importance of biblical
literacy for healing, and Ithink that this conversation is
just going to keep going withthat in a lot of ways.
(01:44):
So first of all, welcome, kelly.
Thank you for being here.
Yeah, thank you so much forhaving me.
I'm so, so excited about this.
So tell me about the scripturethat kind of got us started on
this.
It is in the book of Proverbs.
Kelli Gaylean (02:00):
Well, it was more of a conversation that was
happening over and over.
I kept hearing people starttalking about marriage or
talking about relationships ormanhood or womanhood, and they
would start with the naggingwife.
They would start by saying theBible says that it is better to
die in the wilderness than tohave a nagging wife.
And so it became this thingthat got under my skin and I got
(02:24):
curious about it and I was justlike how much does it talk
about the nagging wife?
Because they would quote thatscripture and it's like, oh,
it's in the Bible, sure, it is,but like how many times is it in
the Bible and what does itactually say?
So I just was curious one dayand I looked and it's really
only nagging wife is only in theBible like three times.
(02:46):
They're all in Proverbs.
It's in Proverbs 21 a couple oftimes and it's in Proverbs 27
once.
So if you want to look atProverbs 21, in verse nine it
says and these are theseProverbs, these are like little
snippets of advice from a fatherto a son.
And so there's just chapterafter chapter of these little
(03:08):
pithy one-liners that are thewisdom that this man wants to
pass down to his son.
So Solomon says better to liveon the corner of a roof than to
share a house with a naggingwife.
And then later in verse 19, hesays better to live in a
wilderness than with a naggingand hot-tempered wife.
(03:31):
And so these in the Proverbs 27line is, it's very similar in
verse 15, an endless dripping ona rainy day and a nagging wife
are alike.
The one who controls hercontrols the wind and grasps oil
with his right hand.
It's like, basically, thiswoman is out of control and she
(03:53):
is relentlessly unpleasable.
I went to the dictionaryactually another great Bible
study tool and I looked up theword nag and there were a few
different definitions, like tobadger incessantly, things like
that, and I was just like so thenagging wife is relentlessly
unpleasable.
And so here is my like what hashonestly become my nightmare.
(04:15):
To be right, if my husband wasto be like you're just a nagging
wife, I would just will.
I would not recover from that.
It would hurt my feelings sobadly because it has been this
threat what if this is who youare?
And to be relentlesslyunpleasable.
And I was able to use the Bibleand that dictionary together and
(04:36):
say, oh, am I relentlesslyunpleasable?
No, I'm not.
I know that I am grateful formy husband and I am grateful for
the things that he does and Iam grateful for who he is and I
like him and I know that heknows that because I tell him
(04:57):
that I encourage him, I love him.
Well, we walk in partnership.
My husband is very welcoming ofme and of my voice and he
honestly has valued my voice,for I mean, we've been married
20 years this year and it's been20 years of him valuing me, of
him esteeming me, and so it waslike the truth actually just
(05:22):
destroyed that fear, justobliterated it, because it was
like, oh, that's not what I am.
I would have to change who I amin order to be a nagging wife,
and so that was a really sweetfreedom for me.
And then the Lord just gavethat to me, like I'm not the
only one married, I'm not theonly woman experiencing that,
(05:44):
I'm not the only one married,I'm not the only woman
experiencing that.
I'm not the only woman who hasthat fear, and I thought, well,
how can I help my sisters to see?
Tabitha Westbrook (05:52):
this is what that word means, and there's a
very low chance that that isactually you us up a little bit
because I think this is such agood discussion and you know
that relentlessly unpleasable isthe important factor there in
all of it, because the way thatthis gets taught often and the
(06:15):
way I've heard it since I was achild, is, well, you're just a
complainer or whiner, you'rejust asking too much.
And then men who are wickedwill say to their wives you're
not even allowed to make acomplaint because then you're a
nagging wife or you're like thedripping water one.
I've heard pastors over andover since, like desert storm,
(06:37):
call it being waterboarded byyour wife and I'm like, well,
thanks for that illustration,ick.
But that then says to a womanyou can't even make a complaint
and for wicked men that's aweaponized scripture.
So there are probably womenlistening to us right now who
are like I have had that usedagainst me.
They might actually noticetheir hearts racing and their
(06:59):
palms sweating and all of thesymptoms of a trauma trigger and
body activation.
Because it's been misinterpretedand what I liked that you
started off with this was one ofmy favorite things because I
heard you do it, but I'm goingto explain what you did.
You said if you understand theway the book of Proverbs is
written, which is step numberone in Bible study, right, and
(07:20):
you and I both know how to studythe Word of God.
Well, and that's something I'vetalked about on this podcast
was who wrote it?
To whom did they write it?
What were their purpose inwriting it?
And so you gave us that and itwas like, okay, here's the
context in which it was written,and I know that we have both
studied under Jen Wilkin and oneof the things that she says and
(07:41):
help me if I get this wrong,because I know you've heard it
probably more than I have but itwas written for them and for
then, for us and for always andfor me and for now.
Did I get that right?
I feel like I might have missedsomething.
Okay, so, looking at it incontext of what was it written
for?
And you gave us that.
So it was written by a man tohis son and their little pieces
(08:02):
of wisdom and principles and Iknow, with Proverbs in
particular, especially, train upa child in the way they should
go and when they are old theywill not depart from.
It was also weaponized, and soif you had a child that was wild
and out, then you must havedone something wrong, when in
reality, we just have free willand crap happens.
And these are principles and notthe letter of the law, and it's
(08:22):
almost like we want to make italchemy.
It's like we treat the Bibleand these proverbs sometimes as
if they are like spells that wecan cast over our families, and
so I think it really isimportant to start with who's it
to and why, what are we doinghere?
And then to really look at whatdoes it mean?
Because the language meanssomething, and if we look at
(08:44):
etymology of words, then we haveto figure out where they came
from, and I love that you werelike dictionary.
Let us look in the dictionary,which is a good Bible study tool
.
Kelli Gaylean (08:53):
All these years of training?
Tabitha Westbrook (08:55):
Yes, it's a beautiful thing, though, because
the other thing that you saidis the truth set me free, and I
believe there's a correspondingscripture which is you will know
the truth and the truth shallset you free.
And I believe there's acorresponding scripture which is
you will know the truth, andthe truth shall set you free,
definitely, and it does.
And it sets you free fromoppression and tyranny.
So if someone is using thatscripture as tyranny, as
(09:16):
oppression, then I would notwant to be them at the end of
days, if they don't repent, I'llbe honest because they are
oppressing their spouse.
Kelli Gaylean (09:24):
Right, and I think it also sets you free to
reasonableness.
Am I asking for somethingunreasonable?
Are my expectations reasonable?
Here, and I think that I meanobviously the beginning of
Proverbs, solomon is talkingabout the value of wisdom, and
then he just has these littlesmall statements of all of the
wisdom that I have.
(09:44):
It's like that last big pushbefore you launch your child to
send them to college or to goand live on their own as an
adult.
Did I do enough?
Did I say everything?
Well, solomon wrote it all down, or probably had one of his
many scribes write it down forhim.
But what is that wisdom Like?
That wisdom is in you, throughthe Holy Spirit.
And so what does that wisdomsay?
(10:06):
Are you being unreasonable whenyou invite your husband in a
conversation?
Are you being unreasonable whenyou ask your husband to partner
with you in something?
I think that that reallyprotects our mind right and that
truth of what is reasonable andwhat is not.
Tabitha Westbrook (10:24):
Absolutely.
And I think that for survivorsbecause their voice was often
silenced using scriptures justlike this that when they get out
they can also go to the otherend of the pendulum and just
very much be demanding andunpleasable, and not
intentionally it is a traumaresponse of like you're not
going to get me again, right,and I get that.
(10:45):
And I think sometimes, aspeople are looking at things and
couples are trying to workthrough stuff, asking what makes
sense here, where could this becoming from?
How did we get here?
What makes this make sense, canbe really helpful.
And it is a good place to checkour hearts.
Just because we're a survivor ofabuse potentially and I know
not everybody listening is butfor those who are, and that is
(11:05):
the trauma that you experiencedthen you can have an extreme
reaction and that is your ownheart that is trying to
self-protect and I get it ahundred percent because abuse is
not fun and no one wants to dothat again.
But also to then be able to sayam I unpleasable?
Which is like nothing is good,right, like unpleasable is.
Well, you brought home Swisscheese and it wasn't baby Swiss
(11:28):
cheese, and I really wanted thelacy Swiss cheese from Boar's
Head and you are therefore aterrible spouse.
And it's like, well, unlessthey're like bringing home the
wrong Swiss cheese as a way tolike pick at you and torture you
, which some coercivecontrollers do I've known many
that will bring home things thattheir spouse legitimately can't
eat because they have celiacsor something, and tell them
starve or suffer, and so if it'sthat, then clearly we have a
(11:52):
pattern of power and control,right.
But if it's, they just made amistake at the store and I'll
switch cheese, I'll switchcheese to them.
That's not wickedness, it'sjust it's a different cheese,
but yeah.
Kelli Gaylean (12:03):
So when we look at these things and go, where's
my heart at and I do think thatis such an important thing for
us, whether we are a survivor ornot to ask oh, for sure, for
sure, and I think that that islike I would say, that most
women, whenever they want totalk with their husbands,
they're not like waiting untiltheir husband is exhausted and
(12:26):
beat down and a shell of himselfat the end of the day, just so
that they can get their way.
It's really easy to be like, oh, you're just being manipulative
.
Well, that's not true.
You know, I think whenever we'reloving our spouse well, we are
considering their environmentthat they have just come from
and if they are in a good placeto talk about this.
And that's what I've had tolearn over a long time, like
(12:48):
practicing that awareness oflearning my husband and what
time of day is a good time ofday to talk about things,
because he works really hard allday long and when he gets home
he's exhausted.
And then the children areprecious, sweet, relentless
little babies and we get them tobed and then it's like, oh,
let's just take a second.
(13:08):
And if I was just like all onhim, like why did you do this?
But you know, that would be onething, but that's not reality
and I don't think that that isreality for a lot of people.
Tabitha Westbrook (13:21):
So it just kind of helped.
Right, and there is a way tobring up things.
You know that is healthy whenI'm working with couples, and so
if I'm doing couples work, itis with a marriage that is
disappointing or difficult.
Right, things didn't go asplanned, expectations weren't
met, there's a cancer diagnosisthose are the ones I want to see
.
Or like, hey, man, we got sointo raising our kids, we
(13:42):
stopped being friends.
I will counsel that all daylong and six days on Sundays.
I mean, we'll have fun with it,my version.
But when it is wisdom and youtalked about the wisdom in
Proverbs, right, and it saysseek her, seek her in the street
.
She's calling to you and askfor wisdom.
James says ask for wisdom andit will be given to you
liberally and without reproach.
And I think there is wisdom inwhen we have conversations and
(14:05):
that is not manipulative, thatis wise.
If I know I need to have adifficult conversation and you
are super, super tired and thisis whether it's a spouse, a
friend, a kid, anybody then it'snot the right time because
they're just not going to have awide enough window of tolerance
or the capacity.
And so I want to time it to sayhey, when this happened, I felt
hurt, or I'm really curiousabout this, or hey, I'd really
(14:28):
like to go to Disney World, likeeven that a conversation that
isn't challenging or confrontingis still best done with wisdom
and that doesn't make youunpleasable and even levying
complaints.
And so for the sisterslistening to us who have been
told well, to say anything thatyou don't like is being a nag
(14:49):
and it's like no, if they'reconsistently neglectful, if they
are consistently doing thingsthat are not helpful or are
harmful, you absolutely shouldbring that up.
That's appropriate, becauserelationships are mutual.
They are not dominated by oneor the other.
Relationships are mutual, theyare not dominated by one or the
other.
And I would imagine that whenyou bring up things that you are
needing your husband to addresslike hey, this wasn't good for
(15:09):
me that he hears you because youare not a relentlessly
unpleasable wife.
Kelli Gaylean (15:16):
I think everything is connected right,
and so an environment of safetyinvites conversation, and that
is something that I haveexperienced in a really good way
, and so I think that's how doyou create that environment if
it has not been what you'veexperienced before?
Tabitha Westbrook (15:34):
Right.
I mean I think your spouse isactually safe so you guys can
have those difficultconversations.
He does not lord it over you.
We were talking before we gotstarted and one of the things
that you talked about that Ithink is so beautiful is that he
loves your flourishing.
He does not find you too much,he does not find you too big, he
(15:57):
finds you precious and hedelights in all of who you are,
lights in all of who you are.
Even the things that areprobably and like man, we all
have them right Like the thingsthat were super cute when we
were dating somebody are likenot super cute once.
We marry them after maybe sixmonths or a year and we're like
dude.
No, but love can even grow inthose quirky spaces and he, he
(16:19):
lets you be you and I think thatis one of the things.
Like he doesn't stifle you, atleast not that I've ever seen,
or not that you've ever told me.
Kelli Gaylean (16:28):
I grew up in a home where my dad was a squasher
and that was really hard torecover from and I think I just
had a terrible expectation ofwhat it was going to be like to
be married to a man.
So I I was like nervous to getmarried.
I mean I could not have helpedmyself.
I was so in love with Joe andGallion, but I was nervous about
(16:51):
that.
What is it going to be like tobe married to a man?
Is he going to become this?
And so I was guarded a littlebit at first in marriage, and
that has something that,honestly, has only grown.
At first it was oh, I delightin you because of this or that,
oh, you're beautiful, I don'tknow.
Three, four years I've hadopportunities to disciple women
(17:17):
and speak and do and write abook.
I mean things that are like wayoutside of my comfort zone, and
I just cannot even tell you howencouraging and sweet it has
been for him to not even flinch.
He has just celebrated everysecond of it, like, yes, do it
(17:38):
Go.
I'm so proud of you.
You did amazing at this.
I loved what you said.
My husband is not a loud man.
He's quiet, just by nature.
He's an introvert, little shy,sweet, sweet personality, but he
is stubborn and deep and hefeels things really deeply and
so he is so worth waiting for.
(18:00):
But you have to let it cook andlet him draw it out a little
bit, a little bit at a time, andthat is very different, because
I'm I'll just be like a splat,like hey, here I am, and so it
has been so neat, like thisthing that I have worried about.
Hey, here I am is so loud andcan feel other people might
(18:21):
think it's obnoxious Am I toomuch?
And he's like no, you keep ongoing.
He loves it and that has beenone of the sweetest gifts of
these last few years.
I mean, we're in our 40s.
I think once you hit your 40syou feel like you're on the
downward and it has been so coolto see him just be like
absolutely yes, all the way.
Tabitha Westbrook (18:44):
Which I think is just absolutely beautiful
and the way good marriages areright.
It doesn't mean that you guysdon't ever have difficulty or
challenges or any of that we alldo, but the fact that he just
celebrates your flourishing isso good he's not threatened by
it.
Kelli Gaylean (19:02):
It's not about him, right?
Tabitha Westbrook (19:04):
It's not a reflection on him Right, it
doesn't diminish it.
Yeah, one of the things I sayoften is I will not bow to a man
who is afraid that their lightis going to be dimmed.
But also, they don't have todim their light, right, because
we can all shine brightly in theway that God created us,
(19:27):
whether that's introverted,extroverted, more forward-facing
, less forward-facing, right.
The body of Christ has a lot ofparts and they all matter, but
I don't have to dim my light, soI mean we'll feel better.
The good men, the men who aresecure in Christ and secure in
who they are created to be, aregoing to celebrate it and
they're going to shine brightlyas well, and that is a really
(19:48):
beautiful thing.
And it isn't about who'swinning, it's about are we
loving well, are we flourishing?
Are we following God?
What are we doing?
How are we raising our babies,if we have babies, or how are we
raising our fur babies?
That can also be hotlycontended sometimes you know,
yeah.
But you know, I think that isthe beauty, though, also of
(20:08):
understanding that scripture,because then you don't have to
play soft with your spouseeither.
Like you said that that set youfree, like when you understood,
like, oh, I'm not that woman.
First of all, that we are allafraid to be that woman means it
has been language very poorly.
Yeah, we should always want tobe holy.
The scripture calls us to that.
But the fact that, like it isthe worst thing that we could do
(20:30):
as a female is say stuff isconcerning, because God gave us
voices.
We are made image bearers ofthe living God, just like men,
and we are evidencing some pieceof the character of Christ in
ourselves, and so using ourvoice is very much different
than being relentlesslyunpleasable.
Kelli Gaylean (20:50):
And when scripture is misused like that,
we miss out on the goodness thatcan be in the body of Christ
that is carried by women likeDeborah, who was in this strong
(21:15):
leadership position and she tookcare of business and she
encouraged the people around herand she walked in wisdom and
she was a huge, valuable part ofthe nation of Israel and cared
for them as a mother and Icelebrate that so much and I'm
so grateful for that.
But I also think about, likethe women who are not mentioned
quite as much.
But I also think about, likethe women who are not mentioned
(21:36):
quite as much, but how they arementioned.
And they saw a need and theyfulfilled it.
They saw their need and theyasked for what they needed.
Jael saw a need, she sawopportunity and she took care of
it.
She ended the tyranny of Siseraterrorizing the women of Israel
(21:57):
and also the men, when I thinkof, like the daughters of
Zelophehad.
They saw a need.
They saw, oh, we're not goingto be cared for if we don't ask
for what we need.
And so they went and they askedin a respectful, kind way, but
also they said, hey, this is aneed and we're here, we have a
(22:17):
need.
They weren't afraid to speak up.
I feel like Mary Magdalene didthat.
She was so broken.
She was so broken and her needwas right there and she went.
When she found a place that herneed could be fulfilled, she
went to him, she went to Christ.
We had Rahab.
(22:38):
She saw that the Lord was rightthere and when she had the
opportunity she grabbed onto himand she professed that he is
the Lord and she did not holdback.
We have Michael, who was socourageous and had a really hard
time, but she did what wasneeded in the moment for David,
(23:00):
and then it didn't pay.
He took her from the nexthusband and it made her so
bitter.
And it's like show up, show up,because when we ask for what we
need, nine times out of ten theLord is right there, ready to
meet us, and when we don't, wesuffer in bitterness.
Tabitha Westbrook (23:22):
Right, absolutely.
And there are so many differentpresentations, like you're
saying, of women in Scripture,and we do tend to talk about the
stronger ones, like the Ruthand the Deborah and all of that,
but there are millions who areunnamed and the Deborah and all
of that, but there are millionswho are unnamed and they are
still part of that great cloudof witnesses.
And I think about that and Ithink about who are the women
(23:43):
that we see in our lives nowthat are part of that great
cloud, that are serving andfollowing faithfully, and not
the ones who are being doormats.
We got to get them out, man.
That's not cool.
Jesus did not say thou shalt bea doormat in an abusive
relationship or coercivelycontrolling relationship.
That is not what he's asking.
That is not suffering forChrist.
That's baloney, frankly.
But there are many wonderfulwomen that we can look to and
(24:08):
say they are loving well,they're faithful.
They are part of that greatcloud of witnesses.
Some are going to be morespeaky-uppy than others and some
are going to be more quiet thanothers, and we need them all.
We need them all.
Kelli Gaylean (24:23):
But it's not a crime to see a need and meet it,
and it's not a crime to see aneed in your own life and ask
for it Right in your own lifeand ask for it Right, especially
if you have someone whopromised the Lord he was going
to be your partner until he dies.
You promised the Lord he wasgoing to love you until he dies.
(24:43):
Like that, that should,hopefully, is a safe person to
ask for those things.
Tabitha Westbrook (24:50):
Right, I mean it says that you're supposed to
love your wife like you loveyour own body.
You're supposed to not hurtyour wife.
Speak harshly to your wife Likethere's a lot said about how to
treat a wife in scripture.
Frankly, you know quite a lotmore than is said about how to
treat a husband, incidentallyand not that we shouldn't treat
spouses, friends, everyone, withhonor and respect Right, we
should absolutely do that.
We are supposed to treat othersthe way that we ourselves want
(25:11):
to be treated.
We are supposed to be holy, forthe Lord is holy.
We are supposed to be servantsand power under or power with,
never power over, as humans.
Right, submit one to another isin Ephesians before the whole.
Submit to your husband's verse,and there's just a lot of
goodness when the body of Christfunctions the way God intended
and we don't distort scripture.
(25:32):
And that is like one of themost important reasons to
understand it for yourself,because then no one can use it
against you, no one canweaponize it.
I think if I can't imagine thisever coming out of your
husband's mouth, to be honest,if he was just like, oh my gosh,
you're being the nagging wife,you'd be like I am not, because
I know what that means.
So how do we help pastorsBecause?
(25:54):
So how do we help pastors?
Because, man, I grew up in thechurch.
I've been in multipledenominations over time.
This is not singledenominational issue, right,
this is like the evangelicalchurch of America, to be honest,
and maybe other places, but I'monly familiar with America.
How do we help pastors?
Maybe language it differently,because I know you and I have
both heard for half of foreverfrom all kinds of pastors oh,
(26:16):
don't be the nagging wife, or ifyour wife is nagging you, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
How do you?
How do we help them?
Maybe language it differentlyand not have a joke that
actually could be destructive.
Kelli Gaylean (26:28):
Oh man, I think at this point, I think it's a
bad Christian habit.
It's like one of those thingsthat has gone on for so long
that it's just comfortable and,I think, taking our thoughts
captive and actually asking like, well, what is this word that
I'm saying?
What does this word mean?
I think so many times we thinka word means something and it
(26:48):
doesn't, or we will just getstuff wrong.
I use the wrong song lyrics allthe time and my daughter is
like Mama, no, well, that's so,or I'll say a word and I'll mean
something else, you know, andso when you're talking about
nagging, you might think thatyou mean one thing, but this is
what that definition actuallymeans, and it's really harsh.
(27:10):
It's good for us to hold thatwith an open hand and give them
a benefit of the doubt.
These men are not saying thisbecause they hate women.
They're saying this because ithas been ingrained in them that
this is the way to communicateabout this, and so I think it's
really valuable to just ask theLord what would you have me say?
And something that I reallyappreciated was I was at a
(27:33):
church service a few weeks agoand every single person who
stood up and spoke and saidanything.
None of it was about them, noneof it was about a joke and
self-aggrandizement.
It was about the Lord, it wasabout Jesus and what he has done
for us, and that was soencouraging to me.
And I think, if that is how Ican live my life, I think just
(27:57):
letting the word do the work,you know, letting the love of
Jesus do its work in me anddisentangle those webs of deceit
and bad habits.
And just what I want for my ownself in my own life.
When I walk in that churchbuilding, I want the people
(28:20):
around me to feel welcomed by me.
I want them to feel the welcomeof Christ in me and in our
church home as a church family.
And so if I can contribute tothat, then Lord, let that be
true, let me do that.
And if I am doing somethingthat is not contributing to it,
then Lord, show me and help meopen my blind eyes and show me
(28:42):
my blind spots and help me tosee what I can do better, what I
need to leave behind in my ownheart absolutely, and I think
that sometimes it is good forpastors and leaders to just ask
how might this be heard?
Tabitha Westbrook (29:00):
How might this be heard and I know that I
can feel it now from somepastors, are you kidding me?
Like everything could beweaponized?
Yes, facts, but there arethings that are more weaponized
than others.
In fact, there are, likemultiple books called Untwisting
Scriptures by Rebecca Davisthat do that, because scriptures
get weaponized, and there aresome for abuse and coercive
(29:21):
control that are frequent.
The Nagging Wife is one of them.
The Verses in Ephesians GodHates Divorce which we all know
does not actually say it thatway.
Kelli Gaylean (29:29):
It makes you want to stab yourself in the eye.
More than that.
Tabitha Westbrook (29:32):
Right, it does make me want to take the
fork.
Yes, and for those who couldn'tsee, if you're just listening
to this, the eye roll that wejust got was epic and I love it
so much.
And, yes, it is absolutely notgetting edited out, because
you're a woman after my ownheart and I love it so much.
And we should roll our eyeslike so hard they almost stick
when Scripture is misinterpretedbecause it distorts the heart
(29:54):
of God, and so if there are onesthat are more tricky and
weaponized than others, then Ithink pastors should just go.
You know, if this statistic istrue, that one in three
relationships in my church notjust in the world in my church
are or have been or will becoercively controlling and
(30:15):
abusive, then one third of themen or women anybody, because
anybody can abuse or becoercively controlling then I
need to just say this isn't whatthis means.
Kelli Gaylean (30:28):
I think that's the key, like, knowledge is
power, right Education iseverything.
So asking why practicing thatlifelong learning?
You know, yeah, if God hatesdivorce, why does he hate
divorce?
Well, what did he make when hemade marriage?
They were naked and they werenot ashamed.
They were walking inpartnership, they were working
(30:48):
together and it's like wherethere is perfect trust, there is
perfect freedom.
And we saw that in the garden.
And who orchestrated that?
Who made that?
God did, and so when he madethat and it was marriage, of
course he hates divorce, butwhat he loves is what he made.
(31:09):
And a person in a marriagehacking away at the personhood
of the other person in themarriage and defaming the name
of God, the image of God in themevery day for the rest of their
lives.
God definitely hates that.
Tabitha Westbrook (31:24):
Yep, and he came to set the captives free.
One of the things that inadvocacy class that we talk
about pretty often is that Godhas a lot more to say about
oppression than he does aboutjust about anything else.
There's a lot, and that hedoesn't say just suck it up and
be oppressed.
The first thing Jesus reads inthe temple when he unrolls that
(31:45):
scroll is in the book of Isaiah.
I came to make the blind seeand the lame walk in the ears
here and set the captives free.
That's right.
And so when we look at the wholecounsel of the word of God
which is again where biblicalliteracy is so important If you
look at the entirety, such aclear picture.
(32:05):
Even the stuff that you're likethat is wild and I don't know
what's happening in Ezekiel orparts of Revelation and some of
Daniel, like there's some stuffwhere you're like that is some
imagery.
I'm gonna have to study that abit more.
But the whole counsel of theword of God points to being set
free from sin, from oppression,from death, and points us to
(32:27):
Jesus.
And I think when pastors inparticular and elders and
teachers lean into that, goddoes say that he holds teachers
to a higher standard, which, assomeone who teaches women and
teaches as part of therapy Imean you're always doing some
sort of education Like this ispotentially teaching.
I'm terrified that I would nothandle the word of God well If I
(32:51):
am quaking in my boots.
I would hope that every pastorwho does this every single
Saturday, sunday, monday,whenever you have church,
wednesday, tuesday, I don't knowthat they would be terrified to
not lean into the word in theway that the Lord would have us.
And so that's just, I think mythought on it for pastors is
always be teachable.
I do know wonderful pastors whoare very humble men of God,
(33:14):
even if they have big churches.
And I think sometimes largechurches do get a bad rap and
there's a lot of reason for it.
But some are very, very goodand some are very not, and some
small churches are very, verygood and some are very not, and
it really comes down to thehumility of those in leadership.
Are you teachable?
Are you willing to say I gotthis wrong or I misunderstood,
or I used something flippantlythat harmed inadvertently and
(33:37):
gave someone with a wicked heartammunition?
Kelli Gaylean (33:41):
Look, my pastor said, and to just know how your
words could be heard and that'ssuch a good point like just to
not let yourself growcomfortable, right, because that
comfort is so insidious.
It's like you know that pac,that the serpent.
Tabitha Westbrook (34:02):
Yep, absolutely, and it is so
refreshing for people and itreally does bring people to a
place of like.
Oh, I'm safe enough to questionhere and wrestle here when we
make it a safe place foreveryone, make it not a safe
(34:24):
place for wickedness and not asafe place for domination and
all the shenanigans, but we makeit a safe place to be changed
and to grow and to be loved welland to let the Holy Spirit bear
weight through the word of God,on us, like.
When we do that and it startswith humility and leadership,
man, you're going to see thebody of Christ flourish, because
men and women are going to befree to be who they were created
(34:44):
to be and scripture is notgoing to be used to keep people
in a box.
Kelli Gaylean (34:49):
Yeah, definitely, and I think so much of this
when evil does prey on thedefenseless or the voiceless or
the beat down, so much of thatstarts.
We have a desire to please God.
Right, it's like that desire toplease God is so pure and
(35:09):
something that can happen reallyeasily when scripture is used
in a manipulative way is like,oh well, this is what pleases
God.
And so we can cherry pick thoseverses and say, oh, this is
what pleases God or that is whatpleases God.
And you see that in judges alot, that the people of Israel,
they would start worshiping theway that the Canaanites
(35:29):
worshiped, but it was for God,it was for Yahweh.
It's like, no, no, that doesn'tplease God.
And so once again we're back tothe story of scripture, like,
what does God say?
How is he characterized throughthe entire Bible and what
really legitimately pleases him?
Because he tells you over andover again like he doesn't want
(35:53):
a sacrifice, he wants a contriteheart, he wants your motive to
be pure, he wants you to beflourishing in health and in
wisdom and walking with him toknow him.
And you see that all throughscripture.
But it's too easy to get boggeddown in one or two verses that
(36:14):
trip you up and then you're justdown and you're like, oh, I
can't get out of this.
Yeah, you can, god is knowable,he, you can.
Yep, god is knowable.
He's not just lovable, he isknowable.
And the more that you know him,the greater your love will grow
.
Tabitha Westbrook (36:30):
Absolutely.
I know my own life has bornethat out, I think yours has as
well that there is just suchgoodness, and I think that is
what makes me such a lover ofthe word.
I am a lover of God because I'ma lover of his word and I'm a
lover of how I see him in it.
And I told the story, when Italked about the need for
(36:51):
biblical literacy, of a wickedpastor that dared me to read the
Bible cover to cover, and itwas what ended up being his
undoing, because as I grew inChrist and as I grew in my
knowledge of the word, I waslike wait a second.
And I don't think that was whathe thought would happen.
I don't think he would havedared me, but that really was
(37:12):
because the word of God boreweight on me and I was like wait
a second.
The qualifications of pastor andelder are this and you are.
This is not it.
Also, can we talk about thefruit of the spirit?
Because one of them isgentleness and kindness and, bro
, you aren't.
And that gave me, through thepower of the Holy Spirit in me,
the ability to go no, I will not.
I have questions.
(37:32):
And that enables me now to bothlove my brother's well and my
sister's well and to invite usall deeper into the word and to
point us all to Jesus, which isamazing and beautiful.
As we wrap up this part,because I definitely want to
talk about your book what wouldyou encourage women to do Like I
(37:57):
know you're a lover of Biblestudy.
What would you encourage awoman who maybe is a little bit
scared, has had thingsweaponized?
How would you encourage her tostep in and find this goodness?
Kelli Gaylean (38:09):
I think, something I've actually recently
heard.
Actually, I heard Jen Wilkinssay this at a conference.
She said you're not going tolearn something about God that
is disappointing to you, likeyou're not going to learn
something true about God.
That is disappointing becauseGod is infinitely good, and so I
think that that is.
(38:29):
It can just be a fearful thing,like when his word has been
weaponized against you.
We can fear the Lord in thewrong way, and reading scripture
is what will build the rightfear of the Lord.
The fear of the Lord is thebeginning of wisdom, and so we
want to do that rightly, and soseeing him for who he really is
in his word is a huge part ofthat.
(38:52):
So to go to the scripture andnot be afraid, you know, I would
definitely encourage you toread it literately, to know who
it's written for and what wasgoing on at that time, and see
the context, but also look forthe Lord.
That's why I love the Biblerecap.
I think Terry Lee Cobble does agreat job of setting the stage
(39:14):
and saying so.
This is what was going on atthat time and this is what these
scholars, this is how theyinterpret this, and then these
scholars will also interpret itthis way.
And so you have just this akind friend coming alongside of
you and lifting your gaze sayingthis is my God shot today.
This is what I saw God do today.
This is the truth about Godtoday, and I think just building
(39:37):
that habit has beenlife-changing for me in my walk
with the Lord.
But I think I've had to learnthe hard way that there are
things in the Bible I don'tunderstand and I need help to
understand them.
And that's okay, that's not anindictment on me, that's not
lazy, I'm not dumb, I just needhelp learning.
(39:59):
And so there's a lot ofwonderful resources out there
for that.
So I would say approach thescripture without fear.
You know, see what it says foryourself.
If you read through Genesis,through the first couple of
chapters, and you see that itreally is all Eve's fault and
women can never be trusted again, then more power to you.
(40:21):
But that is not what I see andthat's not what a lot of people
who have spent a lot of moneybecoming theological scholars
see.
You know, people are not goingto give their lives to studying
something so that they can tellyou the wrong thing, hopefully.
Tabitha Westbrook (40:40):
Right?
No, they're not, not unlessthey're real silly.
Kelli Gaylean (40:43):
But also, prayer is so valuable.
Prayer is such a huge part ofthe christian life.
I feel like the lord isinviting me into prayer all over
the place.
In my life right now I haveteenager.
That's that'll kickstart things.
Well, you know, it's like the.
Your prayer life is somethingto really steward and really
lean into and not be afraid, butto go to the Lord with open
(41:06):
hands and just tell him like Ineed you.
I'm willing to dedicate thisday to you.
I'm willing to dedicate my lifeto you and I want to become
what you have for me.
But this cannot be it.
I need you to show me the way,and so to wait for him, to like
really wait on him and go to himand talk with him and invite
(41:28):
him to talk to you.
I think that is something thatI'm learning right now is so
valuable.
Also like to give the benefitof the doubt.
You know, I think, that we wantto protect ourselves so badly
and that the protection if thebest way to feel protected for
me is to feel control that well,I know exactly where that came
from.
I know exactly what he means bythat, and then that is also
(41:51):
shut down, and maybe I'm notcalling him a nag are wise, but
also opening my heart to wisevoices and trying to heal from
that pain and that ache and thatsuspicion, because that
(42:12):
bitterness is not going tobenefit you, it's not going to
benefit your children, it's onlygoing to benefit the enemy.
Tabitha Westbrook (42:19):
Right the enemy Right.
Yeah, I will say, whensurvivors are especially new at
surviving and being out ofvictim, that letting go of
bitterness does not meanengaging in a relationship with
someone destructive.
Exactly, definitely.
So you can let go of bitternessand also not be their friend,
talk to them, be in relationshipin any way, you know.
So just saying that for people,because I think sometimes
(42:40):
people are like oh no, becauseso many women like want to do
the right thing and it's alreadyreally hard.
But also bitterness is keepingyou from healthy relationships.
Right, because you have beenharmed and you're afraid it will
happen again.
You know, this is where thewisdom of the Holy Spirit really
does come to bear.
There are good men, oh, I know.
Kelli Gaylean (42:58):
The benefit of the doubt.
I was saying maybe the benefitof the doubt for a new person.
Tabitha Westbrook (43:09):
Right.
No, totally agree.
I think it's such the middlepath right, because we need to
learn how to find those safepeople.
We can't just walk aroundthinking there aren't any.
It's not truth.
I have amazing brothers andsisters in Christ and amazing
brothers Like I am not bitter atall against men.
I love my brothers and I alsolove wicked men enough to call
them to repentance, and so I'mnot going to be in relationship
(43:29):
with them.
I am going to call them torepentance.
I am going to speak the truthin love, but I am also going to
be very careful, because of thework that I do, that not all men
are that way.
Right, I like that, I think.
Kelli Gaylean (43:42):
That's really valuable and that's something
that I am.
I am learning like I'm totallypreaching to myself there.
It's so easy to just paint allmen with one brush for me and to
just walk in with suspicion.
Only suspicion and that'ssomething I have learned very
slowly over time is that it ispossible to encounter men who
(44:03):
want the same thing that youwant, who want the word of God
to be the thing that bears ontheir life the most, who want to
know God, who want everyonearound them to know God and to
be able to flourish in that anduse their voice and have a
presence there and use theirgifts and lead.
Tabitha Westbrook (44:25):
that is something I'm like very slowly
discovering on my own healingjourney yes, and I just will
note you've been in a wonderfulmarriage for 20 years and there
are still moments from your past, as you're talking about it
right now, that are still stillbeing healed even now, and so
we're in my car trouble.
Kelli Gaylean (44:45):
Nothing.
Tabitha Westbrook (44:46):
Right, and I mean, like that's the normal of
healing, right, there are onionlayers that we don't even know
are there until God peels oneback and we're like, oh yeah, I
got to work on that.
Thanks Jesus, here we go, andthat is such a good thing, right
, and that's OK.
So I want to normalize that too, because it is beautiful.
You can have that both, and itis the now and the not yet, and
(45:06):
we can trust God for all of it,which is super beautiful.
And I think I will just callour sisters into an invitation
of get into the word and the oneI did on biblical literacy.
The Jesus Storybook Bible is agreat place to start, if that's
where you got to start, and justinvite yourself to see the face
of real, actual Jesus.
(45:27):
And for our pastor, friendsthat might be listening, please
listen.
If someone comes to you andsays, hey, that could be heard
in a certain way, don't just belike, oh my gosh, I can't,
please everybody Just say hey.
I wonder if more than oneperson might have felt this and
maybe I could just make asentence like hey, this is what
this means and I don't want tobe flippant about harm, that's
(45:48):
it, that's all really survivorseven ask honestly.
They just don't hand weapons tolike the people who are harming
them, and so just I would justencourage us all to like lead
with love and kindness in how wewalk, and I think that's the
way of the.
Kelli Gaylean (46:03):
Lord anyway, and I think acknowledging those
people is really valuable,really valuable acknowledging
that, like the people thatyou're preaching to don't all
look like you or think like youor have the same experiences
that you do.
You know, if you are white,male, middle-class preacher out
in the comfortable burbs ofAmerica and there are single
women and men, there are youngwomen and men, there are older
(46:26):
women and men, there are marriedand divorced and widowed.
I mean there's all differentpeople, and so I think that is
really valuable just to are youseeing them in your day-to-day
life?
Tabitha Westbrook (46:42):
Right, absolutely.
So let's talk about this bookof yours, ma'am.
It is such a lovely book and Iam not.
I do not like romance novels, Ido not like fiction for the
most part, but I loved your book, and so that is saying
something that is like highpraise on my end.
But tell me what inspired youto write it?
Kelli Gaylean (47:05):
You know I love reading.
I've always read.
I was a teacher in our otherlife, before we had kids, and so
I've just always been a readerand I loved writing, teaching
writing when I was in theclassroom and stuff.
I've been in Bible study since2010 now, and so I've been
leading groups since 2011.
And I've been coordinating thesmall group leaders for years
now, and so I've just heard alot of women's stories in those
(47:30):
groups.
Those single gender learningenvironments, those are the
places where women are going tofeel safe to open up and share
or to build relationships wherethey could open up and share,
and so I just had heard so manyof the sad stories of women, and
there are just these recurringthemes.
If you have a group of 10 women, you're definitely going to
have somebody who has had aneating disorder.
(47:51):
You're going to have somebodywho has not been safe in her
home.
You're going to have somebodywho has had an abortion.
You're going to have somebodywho struggled with infertility.
You're going to have thesedifficult things.
And so I think I just saw womenand I saw during the pandemic
how easy it was to just setaside someone whose story is
(48:14):
inconvenient for you at the time.
And so it was, all of thesethings were bearing on me and I
was just thinking, and you sitat dinner and you look around
the restaurant and there's oh,they must be on a first date.
Oh it's awkward.
You kind of like make up yourown story.
And so I just kind of made up astory in my mind.
It was like it stuck with me.
I couldn't get away from it.
And so I thought I mean I couldtry.
(48:37):
I mean I could just try.
And so I did.
And then I kept going.
I had a couple of friends who Iasked to read it.
I was like I had 10 pages andthey read it and I was like, is
it complete trash?
And these were people who, likethey're in my book club, we all
read, we all love to read.
So I knew that they would tellme the truth.
(48:57):
And they were like, no, I thinkyou should keep going.
And they were like, no, I thinkyou should keep going.
And so I did, and eventually Ihad a whole book and the Lord
has been really kind about it.
He's been really sweet to justlet it land in the right hands
and hopefully just encourage thepeople who have read it.
The feedback has actually beenreally good, which is amazing.
(49:18):
I mean I don't know what I'mdoing.
This is my first novel, whichis amazing.
I mean I don't know what I'mdoing.
This is my first novel.
It's my first book.
I've never done this before, soI definitely made a lot of
rookie mistakes.
But it's out there.
It's on Amazon right now.
You can buy it.
It's on Kindle, it's inpaperback.
It actually has two coversbecause of a rookie mistake that
(49:39):
I made, but this is one of them.
It's called how Can it Be, andit is the story of a woman named
Mia, whose parents forced herto have an abortion after a wild
weekend in college and sheexperienced a fallout from that,
the trauma and the grief, andthis story picks up 10 years
later.
So she has done a lot of therapy.
She has actually come to faiththrough a coworker and friend.
(50:03):
So she shows up one Sunday atchurch and she sees that they
have a new worship minister andit turns out that it's the guy
who got her pregnant 10 yearsago.
They are just kind of throwntogether a lot through, like
different volunteeropportunities and things, and so
he's just always there.
So she can't just avoid him.
They actually become friendsand eventually fall in love.
(50:28):
But telling him about theabortion is part of that and his
response and his own pain andtrauma and how he came to the
Lord years after meeting her thefirst time, and so it's just
honestly.
It's a story about the love ofGod and how we are never too far
(50:48):
from him to be able to be saved.
Tabitha Westbrook (50:51):
Yeah, and it's not like smarmy, stupid
romance novel, right when you'rejust like it's a Hallmark movie
with a bow on it and we alreadyknow the plot.
It's not like that, which Iloved, like you can have
Hallmark, go watch it atChristmas, but go read Kelly's
book.
How can it be?
Because it is really good andit's just a nice.
It doesn't sanitize in ways.
(51:13):
It's just good, it's real.
And look, if you don't thinkthat two people who once knew
each other can get throwntogether in Christian ministry,
you have not done Christianministry because, man, I've seen
that.
So many times.
The number of times I've hadsomebody sit in front of me and
we are all just six degrees ofKevin Bacon, let's be honest,
especially in the church man.
So the number of times I'm like, oh all right, and that is the
(51:36):
exact kind of story, is veryhigh.
So it is very realistic and Ireally enjoyed it.
I really would recommend it.
It is such a great book.
We're going into beach season.
I think it is a great beachseason book.
Or, if you are more of amountain person, it's also a
great mountain season book.
Like, your level of pasty willdictate where you end up for
your summer vacations, I'm sure,but wherever you go, take it
(51:59):
with you, read it, tell yourfriends and, kelly, thank you
for being here with me, fortalking about this stuff with me
and for just who you are as ahuman being.
I am grateful for you, I'mgrateful to know you, I am
grateful that God said our pathsshould cross, and just thanks
for hanging out and talkingabout Jesus and his word with me
today.
Kelli Gaylean (52:18):
Me too.
I love you so much, friend.
Thanks for having me.
Tabitha Westbrook (52:23):
You today.
Me too.
I love you so much, friend.
Thanks for having me.
You're so welcome.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
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