Clergy Sexual Abuse in the Church: What No One Wants to Talk About with Dr. David Pooler

In this powerful episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook sits down with Dr. David Pooler—professor of social work, licensed clinical social worker, and director of the Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse Advocacy and Research Collaborative. Together, they tackle one of the most urgent yet under-discussed issues facing faith communities today: adult clergy sexual abuse.

From the psychology of abusive leaders to the church's mishandling of sexual misconduct, Tabitha and Dr. Pooler explore how trauma, theology, and power intersect in devastating ways—and how survivors can lead the way toward healing and justice. They discuss everything from the Me Too and Church Too movements, why so many church leaders are unequipped to deal with abuse, and what true restorative justice in religious spaces could look like.

If you're a survivor, a pastor, a therapist, or just someone who cares about the church being a place of healing, not harm—this conversation is a must-listen.

👉 Topics include:

• The hidden crisis of adult clergy sexual abuse
• Why survivors are the experts the church needs to hear
• The dangers of quick re-platforming and institutional silence
• EMDR and trauma-informed care for Christian leaders
• The role of shame, theology, and spiritual formation in abuse dynamics
• What a trauma-informed, safe church could look like
• Why real accountability isn’t punitive—it’s redemptive

🙏 This conversation contains sensitive content about sexual trauma and clergy misconduct. Please take care while listening.

Find Dr. Pooler's work at https://socialwork.web.baylor.edu/person/david-pooler

Wanna say hi? Send a text!

🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.

Order Body & Soul, Healed & Whole: An Invitational Guide to Healthy Sexuality After Trauma, Abuse, and Coercive Control

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📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com

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🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.

(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
I am super excited to be heretoday with a very special guest.
This is Dr David Pooler, and DrPooler is a licensed clinical

(00:46):
social worker and professor ofsocial work at Baylor University
in Texas.
Dr Pooler is also the directorof the Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse
Advocacy and ResearchCollaborative so important which
aims to provide usefulinformation to allies, advocates
and leaders who want to makereligious spaces more safe and
transformative.
He earned his Master of Scienceand his PhD in social work from

(01:09):
the University of Louisville,and Dr Puller is an expert in
adult clergy sexual abuse andserves on the Cooperative
Baptist Fellowship's ClergyMisconduct Task Force.
He's also an EMDR-trainedtherapist and he includes
insights from both the researchand the clinical practice in
speaking about interpersonal andinstitutional trauma in
religious spaces.

(01:30):
And, dr Pooler, I'm so gladthat you're here.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Thanks, tabitha, for having me.
I'm always grateful to have anopportunity to share more and
talk more about this researchthat I'm doing because I think
it really does matter and it'shelpful to people who've been
injured deeply.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
It is so important and it happens more often than
people think and realize, andthe fact that they have a whole
center at Baylor dedicated to ittells us that.
So tell me, if you'recomfortable, a little bit about
how you got into this work tobegin with.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah, actually rolls back about 20 years.
For a number of years I myselfwas actually an ordained
minister in the Church of Godout of Cleveland, tennessee,
which is a conservativePentecostal denomination.
I'm no longer a part of that,I'm no longer an ordained
minister.
But rolling all the way back, Iremember as I was doing my

(02:26):
social work, my master's insocial work in the late 90s, I
was in this strange space of Ifeel too secular to really do a
great job in the religious worldand sometimes I feel too
religious to be super effectivein social work, and I was in
this weird space.
Over time I've become veryintegrated.

(02:46):
But I will just say this In thelate 90s, when I first became a
minister, I was payingattention to my own mental
health.
I was in therapy but a lot of myfellow ministers were not and
were not talking about theirmental health.
Then that really got me curious, like why aren't ministers more

(03:07):
attuned to this?
Why does this not matter topeople?
Is there something wrong withme that I'm so weird that I
struggle with anxiety anddepression and shame and things
you know?
So that got me on a track.
Then, when I decided to do mydoctoral work, to study decided

(03:29):
to do my doctoral work to studyministers whose ministry was
impacted by a mental healthproblem or a substance use
problem or sexual addiction orwhatever.
That was my first entree intothinking about the church, about
healthy congregations, healthyministers and ways that maybe
ministers could be less thaneffective.
But I wasn't really thinkingabout ministers really injuring

(03:52):
people deeply.
So let me move forward into mydoctoral work.
I wanted to actually do asurvey of ministers and when I
started my PhD program, this is2002, 23 years ago my gosh.
But if anyone's looking alittle bit of modern church
history, this is the same yearthat the Boston Globe broke a

(04:14):
major story about priestsabusing children and adolescents
and how they moved the priestsaround and covered it up and
silenced victims and that kindof got my brain going a little
bit.
But it also alerted mydissertation committee members
and they were like hey, david,we don't think you should try to
study ministers right now.
We're not sure that you'regoing to get a sample of people

(04:36):
who are interested inparticipating.
Well, I pivoted and I began toreally look at helping
professionals more broadly andabout well-being there and about
peer support and frequency withwhich people do help seeking
when you're a professionalyourself.
And that's opened me up tothinking about ethics and

(04:59):
basically how professionalshelping professionals in
particular are regulated inparticular self-regulated, but
also, if you will, licensedprofessionals or board regulated
.
I got completely immersed inall of that and then I spent the
first few years after Ifinished my doctoral work kind
of publishing on social workersand other helping professionals

(05:22):
and problem drinking and otherkinds of things.
So fast forward then.
Basically my career started atthe University of South Carolina
.
But partway through that I gotan invitation from the dean at
Baylor in the Garland School ofSocial Work.
Diana Garland herself it wasn'tcalled the Garland School of
Social Work at the time Said hey, would you consider a job here?
Long story short, I end up atBaylor and I start in 09.

(05:46):
And for four years DianaGarland has already been doing
work in this area.
And then I reconnect with myinitial interest in ministers,
but what happens is it begins tomorph.
As I see her work I'm like, inall honesty, I think a bigger
difference can be made, if youwill, in the body of Christ by

(06:07):
actually looking at people whoare being injured and learning
from people who've experiencedharm.
Because it just dawned on meearly on because of my social
work training, that wait asecond.
Survivors are the ones who havethe insight.
They know what is and isn'thealthy.

(06:28):
They know what would orwouldn't work.
They are going to have the bestideas actually about what would
make religious space more safeor healthy and what a healthy
leader does or doesn't do.
And so a decade ago I ended up,with Diana's support and with

(06:50):
the support of a survivor whowas very interested in doing
research, the three of us gottogether and I put together a
research package, a survey thatwas sent out a decade ago and
that's where a lot of what Italk about comes from a study
that's now a decade old.
And, by the way, just solisteners will know, I'm

(07:10):
planning this summer to launchanother study with a lot of the
same kinds of variables, just tosee where we are a decade later
.
Because if you think of thetiming of that study, 10 years
ago, that's prior to Me Too andprior to Church Too, and we were
not talking about the ways thatleaders can sexually abuse and

(07:34):
sexually assault and target andexploit people in close
proximity, that they care for,that are in a relationship with
them.
But it was Diana Garland whoreally helped me frame this
issue and understand it, andwhen she passed, I basically
just carried the mantle on.
This really became a passion ofmine and something that I care

(07:58):
deeply about, and I knew I wasgoing to carry it on.
I'll just say this Tabitha, Iknew I was going to carry it on
when I did that study, becausepart of what I did is I asked
respondents hey, if you'd liketo be interviewed and share more
?
And I was really naive at thispoint because I said, about ways
that your church has beenhelpful and healing and did all

(08:20):
the right thing I'm sure I'mgoing to get lots of examples of
this the right thing.
I'm sure I'm going to get lotsof examples of this.
Well, what people wouldbasically say is well, the
church responded horribly, butthis one person or this one
minister that I talked to on theside did say this one thing
that actually was really helpfuland it helped me move forward.
Could I still be interviewed?

(08:41):
Myself and my researchassistants?
At the time, we interviewed 27survivors and I think that's
when my clinical background as asocial worker kind of my
interest in trauma I had justrecently at that point in 2014
become EMDR trained, and so itjust all came together and I was

(09:02):
like I get what's happening,why it's happening, how it's
happening, and really amunderstanding, through the eyes
of a survivor and through thevoice of a survivor, the nature
of these injuries that areoccurring when this happens, and
it really, and I was like I'vegot to do more work around
prevention awareness, like we'vegot to grow in this, and so I'd

(09:25):
written a book chapter in 2017.
And so, when the kind of thechurch to movement right on the
heels of the Me Too movement youknow, journalists covering
different kinds of things we'rejust looking around for someone
that might be able to weigh in,who's done some work or has some
knowledge on this, who might beconsidered an expert.
And so that's where, I wouldsay, in 2017, 2018, I just

(09:51):
started getting really.
It was journalists who werecovering a story of a case and
that then and I was also let mejust say this I was an
administrator also at the time,from 2014 to 2019 at Baylor and
it kept me from actuallyengaging this research as much
as I would have liked, so I cameout of administration in 2019.

(10:13):
So it took a couple of years toget back and going again.
I've been publishing off of thedata from 10 years ago and
presenting on this a whole lotmore than I have, and so now I'm
.
The work that I'm doing is now,I would say, informing, and it's
a part of the conversationthat's happening and, tabitha,
I'm sure you're well aware ofthis.

(10:34):
The conversations are reallynot happening at the top, with
among leaders, about how toaddress this.
It's happening at thegrassroots.
It's happening among survivorsand allies and people who are
starting support groups likeAwake for Catholics or RVC for
more for Protestants.
Things are happening there andit's really interesting.
I'm getting to speak in justabout a month here at a

(10:56):
conference.
There's three differentorganizations that are coming
together to do a conference, andthe topic of it is adult clergy
sexual abuse, and it wouldn'tseem that that would be the
center of it, but that'shappening.
So what I'm saying is we're nowin 2025, right now, eight years
plus post Me Too, and ChurchToo, we're now starting to see

(11:21):
people care enough about it tosay, hey, we're going to have a
conference.
That is the focus of this issue, and so we still have a lot of
work to do, but I'm grateful tobe a part of the conversation.
I'm grateful that the researchthat I've done matters as an
informing and bringing datapoints that people can actually
look at and talk about.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
That's amazing.
And what stands out to me inthis story in so many ways is
how God ordered your steps andbrought you from like hey, this
I'm curious about how areleaders caring for themselves
and not even thinking they couldcause harm, but just they would
be terrible leaders?
And then a whole other divinginto helping professionals and

(12:03):
man, those of us who arelicensed every single state,
every single year.
When you go to your ethicstraining, they always say the
number one is sexualexploitation of clients, which
is mind boggling to me because Icannot imagine.
But just in Texas recently,somebody lost their marriage and
family therapy license becauseof exactly that, and it was a

(12:23):
pretty big news story that wasout there.
And so to look at like man okay, you've already got this
understanding of harm from thatperspective, and then to circle
back around through getting thejob at Baylor to someone who's
already doing the work but thewisdom of talking to survivors
and this is what I think isprobably the most important

(12:44):
thing.
This is why in spaces that I'min, we tell survivor stories
when they're obviously withtheir complete consent or
redacted heavily.
We're always very careful, butthe survivor's voice tells you
so much and when we do listen,we get a lot of insight.
In 2018, call to PeaceMinistries did a study of
domestic abuse and coercivecontrol in the church, and 72%

(13:12):
of respondents said that theywent to their church first for
help.
Only four would ever go back,and that says, man, we've got
something broken just there.
And so that the leaders aren'thaving these conversations in
churches stands out to me aswell.
It's the survivor's voice, andare we really paying good
attention and do we really havehumble enough leaders who are
willing to say is the system theproblem?
Am I the problem?

(13:32):
Where's my own heart?
I don't think, and you tell meif I'm wrong, because you've
done the research.
You know that most pastors thinkI would really like to sexually
exploit congregants and justhave a terrible time.
Most are not predators in thatway.
Most people slide into itthrough their own attachment
wounds, failure to do their work, hiding sin, hiding brokenness,
all of that stuff.
Sexual addiction is a big one.

(13:53):
I do see people go places as asex addiction therapist that
they never thought they would go.
Is that your sense of it?
I know we have some predatorsat the top who are truly wicked.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yes, and I think it's Tabitha.
It's honestly, I have I've notbeen able to tease out in a
sense these different profilesof people who do this.
I would say the behavior isindeed predatory.
But I think if you interviewedsomeone engaging in that
predatory behavior and said, areyou a predator?
They're like no, I'm not.
I'm not trying to prey onpeople, I'm not.

(14:26):
So I don't think there's aself-perception, but the
behaviors they engage in becomethat and I agree with you.
I think there's a lot of unmetneeds, a lack of self-reflection
and self-awareness.
I've said this all.
I read a book in the latenineties that talked about

(14:47):
ordination as a shame reductiontechnique and as a.
Basically, what these authorswere pointing out is that people
are drawn to ministry from avery wounded and broken place
where there's a lot of shameradiating and emanating from
them and getting set apart as aminister and I'm different and
I'm better and I'm other thanthe congregant as a way of

(15:11):
trying to reduce shame.
While it might succeed in doingthat, if the person hasn't
really examined some of theirwhys.
They're motivated to be inministry because I think this
whole idea of calling is muchmore complicated than we would
like to see.
In other words, there's a lotof other motivations at play and

(15:31):
I sometimes think ourdenominations and our seminaries
and places that train anddevelop ministers are not.
We're focused more on theologythan on psychology.
People would probably accuse meof having a major bias toward
having a focus on psychology andkind of what's going on with
the person, not the theology.

(15:52):
But I think my work really doespoint out the fact that you can
have good theology and say theright stuff and yet be coercing
and exploiting someone at theexact same time, and so there's
something going on in thedevelopment spiritual formation,

(16:14):
if you will of ministers that'sinadequate in most spaces.
Absolutely Right, I thinkyou're right.
There's a lot going on therethat churches and denominations
and the structures around themare just not even having the
conversations.
They're not talking about whatwe're talking about right now.

(16:34):
And if they would, that mightalert some people to say, oh my
goodness, I really need to payattention to this and get some
help and do some prevention work.
Right, I'm just going to besuper vulnerable here.
I think on some level that wasme right.
Without some reflection andawareness and taking stock of my
own mental health, I couldpotentially have been a person

(16:56):
out injuring others, right, Ithink that's the thing is, just
because I'm ordained doesn'tmean I'm impervious to having
problems or somehow inoculatedfrom harming people, right?
Anyone who's working withpeople has the potential to harm
others.
That's why you as a marriageand family therapist, me as a

(17:17):
clinical social worker it's likewe have boards that actually
can protect a client, where aclient has a place to go to talk
to someone about me and mybehavior If it's inappropriate
or unacceptable, and that boardcan step in and take some
actions to deal with that.
Worst case would be removing mylicense altogether, but it

(17:39):
could be a lesser step ofmonitoring me and watching me
and making sure I'm onlypracticing with certain clients,
of monitoring me and watchingme and making sure I'm only
practicing with certain clients,but in other words, they got
eyeballs on me.
But that kind of regulation andoversight just does not happen
in religious spaces at all.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
Most have.
Either they're autonomous right, Like the Southern Baptist
Convention, Church of God,Church of Christ they're
autonomous churches.
Then you have ones with morepolity, like the Presbyterian
Church of America, OPEC all ofthose.
However, the way that plays outis often protect the system,
not the victim, and that'sdeeply problematic, Also looks

(18:15):
nothing like Jesus.
So I have questions in generalabout that.
Very interesting to me, aswe're talking about how the
system I think it might beinadvertently becomes insular.
And I'll tell you where mythoughts are going with that,
Because I work with people inall spaces and places and all

(18:37):
kinds of things.
But I get a lot of seminary menand women and in seminary, in
all of the seminaries from whichI have ever had a client, they
could not disclose what they aretelling me in therapy or they
will be put on academicprobation and kicked out.
Now some are disqualified,quite frankly.
And you can love and serveJesus this is a quote from my

(18:58):
friend, Chris Moles, who is apastor and better
interventionist but you canserve Jesus at Best Buy.
You don't have to do it in thepulpit, and so for some people I
think that is the wisest placeto go.
Serve God, Do your work anddon't lead people like that.
But there are some that it iscoming from their trauma,
particularly for sex addiction.
Not all sex addicts are abusersand exploiters in the way that

(19:19):
we would say of a full-on, trueabuser, and I know that some of
my folks listening here areprobably about to stroke out.
I'm not saying addiction is notabusive.
It is abusive and betrayal,trauma is brutal and it is
harmful and awful.
And so I am not minimizingtheir behaviors, their outcomes,
the impact, none of that.
But they're stuck and they a lotof times want to do something

(19:42):
different once they come toterms, they just don't know how
to do anything different.
And so if we aren't letting menand women in seminary get real
help, we're setting ourselves upand a lot of churches, when
they ask questions or vetpastors will talk to the
potential candidate and theirwife's questions are often so

(20:03):
how are you going to supportyour husband?
Are you sleeping with himenough?
Things like that, instead ofwhat's it like in the bedroom?
What's it like at home, what'shappening for you, and really
looking for those spaces wherecoercive control is showing up,
and that's a failure.
On how we assess right, we tendto gravitate toward charisma,
ability to teach instead ofcharacter.
I'd rather have a clunky sermonwith a good guy than the most

(20:27):
beautifully orated thing and aguy who's like sleeping with
half the congregation andharming people.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Absolutely.
I wanted to piggyback onsomething because I'd actually
written a little bit about thisall the way back in 2011.
I had written an article inPastoral Psychology but it was
entitled something like Pastorsand Congregations at Risk, and I
looked at role identity theory,about how pastors develop an
identity of being other thancongregants, but part of what

(20:57):
goes on in that space, and itwas also just a critique of the
system, very similar to whatyou're saying, which is there's
just not a lot of permission totalk about being human.
Here's what I'm actuallystruggling with, because a lot
of people feel like that wouldthen keep them from ministry.
Or if I'm already in ministry,I'm already out there doing it

(21:18):
to talk about what's going on,or I'm vulnerable or hurting or
overwhelmed, not coping well,like to actually admit that and
be transparent and open withsomeone.
I think there's an enormousamount of fear of punishment or
losing one's job.
It's really interesting, dianaGarland, when she interviewed

(21:39):
some people in one of herstudies.
She actually interviewed someministers who had perpetrated
clergy sexual abuse and theirprimary concern was about losing
their job.
Yeah, yeah, it wasn't about howthey might have harmed somebody
, but it was this sense of I'min this role.
So having and maintaining a jobright for some folks is the

(22:03):
most important thing, right, andmaybe it's because their
identity is wrapped up in thattheir sense of self is mediated
through this role that I'm in.
So there's a lot of things goingon that are very unhealthy my
identity being mediated througha role, not being able to ask
for help or seek help.
That being punished right, andI think our religious

(22:26):
institutions and how we educate,train spiritually, form.
There's so much more work thatcan be done, but some spaces
don't want to lean on, if youwill, the clinical sector or the
healthcare sector or thehelping professional sector.
But yet a beautiful integrationcould be there that would
inform and help support aminister to be really healthy in

(22:48):
what they do, right.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Absolutely.
I think there is in some spacesstill a lot of fear of the
licensed counselor or reallywell-trained biblical counselor
who's trauma-informed.
And it's interesting to mebecause we're all in the body of
Christ together, we're allgoing to live together forever.
We might as well get along.
This is how I feel about it,but also it's a misunderstanding

(23:11):
I think of.
It's a fear-based response.
Frankly, I'm afraid that youhave been educated in such a way
that will take you away fromJesus and I think that's
poppycock personally.
But I understand the fear right, and in some ways it is a good
fear to wrestle through, to saywe want to maintain good
orthodox theology, we don't wantto have a drift because we

(23:34):
don't drift toward holiness.
We tend to drift towardunholiness, honestly, and so I
hear that and I feel that.
But I feel like there are moreconversations to be had about.
Well, like what does it looklike?
Right, like?
So both you and I are trainedin EMDR.
I will say that the negativecognition that we speak of is
this is what I believe aboutmyself in a situation that looks

(23:55):
nothing like what God says.
And the positive cognition thatwe're moving toward and that
we're helping integrate throughdealing with the trauma is this
is who God says I I am and thisis where I want to put my feet.
And so that really is theessence of a faith-based version
of EMDR that still follows thestandard eight phases and all of
that stuff.
And when you add in things likethe somatic elements of it

(24:16):
knowing what's happening in yourbody, right.
So if you have a pastor orclergy member who was sexually
harmed as a child and then wesee them acting out as an adult,
my question as a therapistbesides, let's make sure that
other people are safe is whatmakes this make sense, what
happened to you?
And finding out some of that?
And if they have a soft enoughheart and they're willing to go

(24:37):
there, then going like, oh, thisis an enactment, you are trying
to put back together the piecesfrom the pastor that harmed you
and inadvertently you're goingand doing the same thing, trying
to fix it.
And now you're in like neckdeep here.
Buddy, you know, and look, I'mhappy for good therapy that
doesn't negate for me also legalconsequences when they're
appropriate.
When you have committed a crime, you need to answer that, and I

(25:00):
also think that that is alsopart of the Bible when I look at
Scripture right, david rapedBathsheba and then murdered her
husband.
I'm not even going to call it afair, because I don't think so
and I can absolutely make a veryI can make a factual argument
on that one, but David took theconsequences Right when he was
confronted.
First he repented becauseNathan was like you know that

(25:21):
lamb story yeah, yeah, that'syou buddy.
And David went dang and herepented.
And when God said, how do youwant to handle it, david said I
want to fall in your mercy, youchoose.
And it ended up with asignificant consequence.
It would have been similar tojail in a lot of ways and David
took it.
And I feel like if the churchwas willing to do the right

(25:43):
thing and if the consequencesare there, it's there.
If you lose an entiredenomination structurally
because you follow theconsequences, then you do.
But at the end of the day,you're not a goat and you're
holy and you stand before aliving God who says I own
everything anyway andeverything's going to be okay.
And I feel like if we'rereading the same Bible and I
feel like we should be thenthat's where we all should land.

(26:05):
What is your sense?
Just having talked to survivorsand talked at conferences and I
know you've met lots of peoplewhat is your sense on how other
people feel about that and theirwillingness to?
I know survivors are like,please let that be.
And what's your sense fromtalking to other leaders?

Speaker 2 (26:24):
About the fear piece and that concern about
integrating and going more withinsights from that might feel
like secular insights.
Well, I have several thoughtson this.
One of the interesting thingsthat I know came up when I
interviewed the 27 survivors andI've heard this in various ways

(26:44):
through the years since is oneis that survivors want a more
human church, and by human Idon't mean like loosey-goosey
morally or ethically, butacknowledging more around
vulnerability, being moretransparent, moving away from

(27:09):
creating images and demands ofpeople that we have to show up
and look a certain way and be acertain way.
It's just not possible, and sothat's one thing I know about.
Going back to the fear piece,it's like I'm with you, tabitha,
on some level and I'm not surewhy people are so afraid.
But I'm going to not to be alittle cynical here, but I

(27:34):
sometimes think that making areal, clear, sacred secular
divide gives the religiousinstitution more power.
It doesn't allow another voicein the mix.
That could be.
In other words, if I allowDavid Pooler's voice or Tabitha
Westbrook's voice into this,I've diluted my ability to speak

(27:58):
forcefully and directly andclearly and have my directive
followed.
In other words, it weakens, itdilutes, but I think that's the
fear.
My perspective is it adds, itintegrates, it adds layers and
it actually starts to deal withclericalism, which is this
elevation of our leaders to theexclusion of congregants.

(28:20):
It begins to flatten out powerstructures.
It empowers congregants to havea voice in the mix and share
what they want and need incongregational life, which I
think would help prevent.
So I honestly think again, thisis David Pooler talking, but at
the end of the day, the fear isreally about losing influence

(28:41):
and power by allowing othervoices and perspectives to
inform what we're doing withpeople.
So that's really, I think,currently what I think that
could change over time as I getmore information.
I think currently what I thinkthat could change over time as I
get more information.
But that's the currentassessment of why I think

(29:02):
there's fear in spaces of havingmore conversations about just
trauma-informed care, atrauma-informed congregation
right, what would that look like?
I think that trauma language isvery, very helpful.
It's not diluting anything.
Trauma language is very, veryhelpful.
It's not diluting anything,it's not a problem.
It's adding additional layersof information so that we don't

(29:27):
over-spiritualize very humankinds of challenges and problems
and we correctly have languagefor that.
50 years from now will we stilluse the language of trauma.
I don't know, maybe, but I'massuming, in 50 years, whatever
language is being used is goingto be helpful and useful.
I'm just one of these peoplewho, as a social scientist and a
professor it's like I includeinsights and data points from

(29:51):
the science.
Where is it taking us, thequestions that we ask, and we
get answers.
They're not complete and totalanswers, but they're moving us
along a pathway of examiningreality, what's actually
happening.
And I don't think theologyalone is adequate to explain all

(30:11):
of reality.
It just isn't.
It just isn't.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Right, yeah, one of my friends who's a biblical
counselor says it this wayScripture is sufficient, but it
is not exhaustive, and that is atrue statement.
Right, we know there are tonsof things that we have to reckon
with that is not explicitlystated in Scripture and we have
to figure some things out.
And that is where, the Spiritbeing the ultimate counselor,

(30:36):
which he's named in the Bible asthe counselor.
So I don't think God has aproblem with counseling as being
indwelling in us when we arebelievers.
And so if we have that andJames says if you lack wisdom,
ask for it and it will be givento you liberally and without
reproach, which means God's likeyes and amen.
Let me give you more of thatthat we have such a beautiful
basis to have discernment, whichI feel like in some ways, the
church has lost the vibe on,it's like.

(30:59):
But we can do that, we candiscern, we can trust that the
Lord can tell us things If he'sactually God, then he can do
this and to be humble andsensitive to what is actually
happening instead of delusionaland not wanting to give up power
.
And it's such an interestingthing because Jesus speaks
specifically to power.
And it's such an interestingthing because Jesus speaks
specifically to power and hesays to the disciples, as he is

(31:22):
washing their feet you will notbe like the Gentiles and Lord
over others, and I know from thedomestic abuse and coercive
control space that I walk invery often that it is power over
that causes lots of problems.
But when you are, power underwhich is lifting another up for
their good and God's glory, andpower with where you're
accomplishing things together,we see the church flourishing

(31:43):
and we see that especially whenwe have a healthy relationship
between men and women, whetherthey're married to each other or
not, and you have the rightoutlook on things.
And I think about those thingsand, like gosh man, there's this
whole beautiful space and Ifeel like the world is looking
people who have no faith at allat Christians and saying like
y'all could really do thisbetter.

(32:04):
And I feel like when people arelike, oh, but we could, what
will people think of the name ofJesus if we say all these
things?
And actually they think itlooks like Jesus instead of like
hypocrisy.
And when people are saying, oh,man, people are leaving the
church, it's just becausethey're being wooed by the world
.
No, I think many are sick ofthe lies, they're sick of seeing

(32:24):
these kinds of things and noone addressing it.
And people are looking at thescriptures for themselves.
I know deconstruction can be afour-letter word with more than
four letters, but I also call itsanctification.
Right, we are becoming morelike Jesus and looking at these
things and studying scripture,and so some folks now there are
like there's bad eggs everywhere, you know.

(32:45):
But some folks who aredeconstructing are really just
saying you know, what was toldto me is not what scripture says
, and I'm not going to walkthere in this place anymore.
And you and I were at aconference together it's been a
few months now and one of themost powerful moments was of

(33:05):
lament and there were someclergy sexual abuse survivors
sharing their story on the stageand we were invited to pray
with those who had been harmedin the audience, who were
participants there were about500, I think had been harmed in
the audience who wereparticipants there were about
500, I think.
And I will never forget whatthat moment felt like in my body
, in my spirit.
To hear people wailing andlamenting and crying out to God

(33:28):
while people laid hands on themwas stunning.
I know I cried my makeupcompletely off.
I know you probably weren'twearing any, or you would have
cried yours off too, but it wasstunning and I remember thinking
if we did this as the big cchurch, what could it look like?

Speaker 2 (33:45):
I'm with you there and one of the things I would
say and I appreciate that wasdone in that space too is, I
think any survivor they couldwalk out if that was
uncomfortable or felt toochurchy for them, but if you
wanted to stay, I think forsurvivor, they could walk out if
that was uncomfortable or felttoo churchy for them, but if you
wanted to stay, I think formany people that was a profound
healing moment of being seen andacknowledged and validated in a

(34:08):
kind of a structured settingwhere there's a gathering of
many, many people.
I think that was probably afirst time experience for many
survivors to have thatacknowledged and named out loud.
It's like we see you, we hearyou, we're with you, we want to
support you.
Yeah, that was a helpful use ofpower.

(34:32):
I was going to add something towhat you were saying earlier
about power, because DianaGarland and I had several
conversations about power and Irealized power's not a bad word.
It's power can be used in veryconstructive and helpful ways to
protect people, to lift people,to help heal people, to elevate
someone on the margins.

(34:53):
Name an experience that morepeople need to hear about,
whatever it can be used very,very powerfully for that.
But unfortunately power can bemisused in ways where the power
then takes from right.
That's really what I've noticed.
The person with power is sayingI have an unmet need and I'm

(35:16):
going to impose that in some wayon another person and take from
them, rather than engaging inhealthy communication and
boundaries as a way toappropriately express needs and
get needs met.
So we're talking about how do wemake churches healthier, really
, on some level level, whenwe're having this conversation

(35:38):
and what we're actually lookingat is an artifact of when
churches are least healthy andwhen human beings and
individuals in that system arenot healthy, what things happen
in those spaces.
I was thinking of somethingelse and I don't know where your
thinking is on this.
I was thinking of somethingelse and I don't know where your

(35:58):
thinking is on this, and Imentioned it in my talk at that
conference, but I ended bysaying we don't have much room.
We're not doing much in thearea of justice, right?
So why do we not have much roomor space for really great
examples of when an injury hashappened by a leader, of what it

(36:22):
looks like to make it right?
Yes, agreed.
We don't have many models ofthat.
We don't have.
Oh, look at this church.
When this issue happened there,it was really tragic.
There were some real injuries,but the way that was handled is
a model where maybe thesurvivor's voice was believed

(36:43):
and if the survivor wanted theirstory to be told or whatever
details of that to be known tothat accountability, and they
acknowledged the wrongdoing, Areal path was set forward where
that person who had done theinjuring actually made it right.
And then you alluded to thisearlier there's accountability.

(37:12):
Well, maybe that minister nolonger has the ability to
minister I mean whatever it isbut people accept it instead of
saying, no, I need to be back inministry.
There's just stuff that'scoming out in the news right
away where people are continuingto be too quickly platformed
again, without appropriateconsequences or adequate

(37:34):
reckoning with what actuallyhappened.
But I'm just saying that's themodel is too quickly
replatforming someone,minimizing all the damage and
dismissing some pieces of whatthe person who's been harmed has
said.
That's just going nowhere.
And to your point earlier, ifyou will, people outside of the

(37:54):
religious spaces looking atchurch life they're no dummies
and they're going.
That's not okay.
That's awful.
I don't want to be a part ofthat.
I don't want to be a part of asystem that does that when a
leader harms somebody, Becauseunfortunately, Tabitha, many of
our secular businesses and notreligious spaces that are

(38:15):
organized, our organizationsactually do a better job of
holding people accountable.
When there's sexual abuse ormisconduct in the workplace, the
church, in my opinion, is inlast place and it ought not to
be that way.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
I agree with you completely.
I know there's a recent newsstory the former football player
who I believe was an ESPNanalyst who was accused of
sexual abuse and was resignedfrom their position.
Now will they resurfacesomewhere?
Do I know the whole story?
I don't, but just even that islike a very immediate, and there
will be people who arelistening to this or who come
across this somehow and say, ohwell, what if it's not true?

(38:52):
And all this.
What I'll say is that it isvery rare that someone discloses
something falsely.
Now, does it happen?
Yes, but you can usually figureit out over time.
That's what investigations do,and the likelihood of it, though
, is very low.
It's between 2% and 10% thatsomeone will make a false
accusation.
And think about what happens tothe people that make an

(39:12):
accusation and I think we saw itat that conference, because we
got to hear from survivors andwhat their experience was in
that and you're maligned, you'reabused, your family's put on
the internet, you're doxxed allthis crap.
Who's signing up for this right?
And only 30% of, I think and Ithink this number is right, but
it's very low, a very lowpercentage of people who are
tried for crimes related to sex.

(39:35):
So sexual assault, sexual abuse, are convicted and very rarely
do they lose every employmentand become sex offenders and all
of that stuff.
And I think when we are talkingabout justice, sometimes these
are not crimes.
Now in Texas clergy, sexualabuse of an adult is a crime
which makes me very happy, as itshould be.
It is not that everywhere, butin the places where something

(39:58):
has gone wrong, terribly wrong,and someone's been harmed in
whatever way, whether it's anabusive power structure, whether
it's sexual assault or sexualabuse or any of those things.
If we were to see real justiceof the matter being handled like
you're talking about, I thinksurvivors would have a lot more
faith in the church itself andalso it would harm their
relationship with God when thesepeople that say they speak for

(40:21):
God and we heard from thesurvivors of a place where that
very much happened and then yousay, well, if I go against this
person, I'm going against God.
And then when they have todisentangle that or deconstruct,
then you know it's a wholething and it can absolutely tank
your faith.
Whether that's happeningpublicly or privately, it

(40:44):
happens for almost everysurvivor I've ever worked with.
The other thing is in thejustice paradigm.
I'll throw this out, becausemost ministers are married,
unless they're like a Catholicpriest.
What are we doing to help thewife and children?
What are we doing?
Because those are the ones Isee just absolutely be ignored
completely.
So the person who harmed ismaybe thrown out and then

(41:05):
replatformed super fast, but thewife and children are
devastated and no one is caringfor them.
So now we have extra victimsand you and I talked a little
bit about this at Restore, whichwas the collateral of clergy
sexual abuse the family members,the spouses, the friends, the
church community, all of theplaces affected.
When this happens and I thinkjustice must extend not only to

(41:30):
the primary victim but to all ofthe victims, and the church
needs to be humble enough.
The Lord says if we humbleourselves and seek the Lord,
then we will find him.
And how many people have prayed?
I think it's from Deuteronomy,the prayer that, like it,
becomes a save our nation prayer, which is literally not what
God intended.
It's really come to alignmentwith me because he doesn't care
about sacrifice and offering.
It's our hearts, but we praythat over America.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
Why aren't we praying that over the church, right?
Oh, I'm with you.
Yeah, I think of a congregationwhere this may have happened.
It's like a concerted effortwould have to extend to the
ministers, spouse, children andreally everyone to have an
adequate conversation about whathas happened, what's being done
to make it right, what needs tocontinue to be done to make it

(42:22):
right, what wounds are now apresent or exposed as a result
of this that we need to addresscollectively.
Right, we're just not havingthose conversations.
It gets back to what I wassaying earlier.
We just don't have a model fora church doing this well.
But to me, the church at itsbest could be a model to society

(42:44):
and to culture about how yourestore, how you work through
injuries and failure andbetrayal, but instead we're
trying to protect our image sothat we're not perceived as
doing any of those things.
But the church?
Again, there's nothing uniquethat makes Christians incapable
of harming.

(43:04):
We're human beings.
I would just hope that when wedo it, we actually have the
skills and the ability and thecapacity to make wrongs right,
and of course, it's not like I'ma complete expert on exactly
what that needs to look like.
You know who is the survivorsCollectively.
The wisdom is there on reallywhat could be done to make

(43:29):
restorative justice practicesactually matter if you will,
absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
And I think there's another expert in the room as
well.
I would say survivors first,always.
Their voice is the one thatmatters the most.
They've been harmed, but all thecaregivers that serve them, so
people like my staff, becausethis is what we do all the time
and other therapists andbiblical counselors and coaches
that are out there that aredoing the on-the-ground work
right, we hear, if the pastorwould have just repented,

(44:00):
stepped down, done the rightthing, instead of everyone
shoving it under the rug andgiving me an NDA and all of the?
And honestly, look, here's thething.
I worked in business for a verylong time before becoming a
therapist.
Ndas were meant to protectintellectual property.
The gospel is not intellectualproperty, nor is how you run
your church.
There should never be an NDA ata church period and maybe

(44:24):
that's a hot take for some, butif you can tell me what would be
proprietary about Jesus, then Iwould like to know because I'm
confused.
But if we really walked thepath of healing, not only is it
going to be good for thesurvivors, but it's going to be
good for the perpetrators.
And before we got started, Itold you that one of my just
hallmarks of belief is it is sounloving not to invite a

(44:47):
perpetrator to repentance.
If we're just letting them walkin their sin, what are we doing
?
We're being wicked, and I alsothink churches need to have less
of a McDonald's mentality,which is what I mean here is
that it is not a five-minutedrive-through and everything is
fixed Like here's your Big Macwith all of its pieces and
everything's put back togetherand it's actually a sandwich
that looks like the picture.
It takes a long time to walktoward healing, repentance and

(45:12):
all of that, and so restorationshould not be quick and it
should not be easy.
It should not be hoop jumping,it should be heart level.
And when I'm working withabusers which that's one of the
things I do anybody can jumpthrough hoops and do behavior
modification for a season.
They cannot do heart changeforever.
And so if we are waiting longenough and we are talking to
collateral and we are reallyholding accountable, we're going

(45:35):
to find out whether or notthere's true change.
I've seen many men go well,can't I have sex now with my
spouse, Like why are we not hereyet?
And I'm like we are twosessions in.
You shouldn't be thinking aboutsex with anybody.
You should be grieving what arewe doing?
And that mentality shouldextend where it's like hey, we
want to see real fruit.
We don't want pretty words, wedon't want platitudes, we want

(45:57):
heart change because we love youenough to not let you walk in
darkness anymore.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
Yes, and I'm going to .
Oh, wow, that's so good.
And one of the things I thinkI've realized, even from Judith
Herman's work, is that some ofthe people who abuse are serial
abusers.
Yes, in part because they'velearned how to get away with it
and they've learned how towiggle out from accountability,

(46:25):
and so they know how to say alot of things.
So when we're talking about anykind of restoration or
reconciliation, that you areabsolutely right it would have
to be a very measured, engaged,highly monitored process.
That would literally take yearsright, it's not, and it's

(46:48):
multi-layered.
But that's messy, it'scomplicated, it's hard.
It would involve bringingsurvivor voices to the table.
It would involve bringing thetherapeutic and health care
communities to the table tobring insights.
It would involve a reallycollective, integrative process.

(47:10):
It wouldn't be easy, it would bemessy, it would be complicated,
it would be hard, it wouldrequire an enormous amount of
investment, but that I don't seeany other way forward other
than something like that.
And, tabitha, honestly, this isthe first time I've ever had a
podcast conversation about whatthese things could look like.
So my imagination is turning.

(47:30):
And again, I just want to beclear it's not like I have a 10
point plan of what this issupposed to look like.
Part of what I'm saying iswe're not talking about this
enough.
So this is one of the firsttimes I've ever had a
conversation about how complexand hard this would actually be.
But I think, and I'm evencompelled by your love, if you

(47:50):
will, for the person who's donethe harming and the abusing,
because I do think that's right.
We do need to love those folks.
And sometimes the loving thingto do is to exclude them from
ever ministering again, butthere are times that might not
be the case, and when it's notthe case, what will that and
should that and could that looklike?

(48:11):
That has to be explored.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Absolutely, and I think so.
One of my theories is takingthe principle of left of bang
and applying it.
So left of bang is a militaryterm from the United States
Marine Corps, and yes, I saidthe whole thing because I am the
daughter of United StatesMarine and I know better right.
So for all of my United StatesMarine Corps friends that are
now listening, you know I hearyou hoorah, here we are.
But the left of bang idea isthat we solve the problem before

(48:38):
the explosion happens, becauseif you're left of the bang, it
hasn't happened and you're notwearing shrapnel.
If you're right of the bang,you have met Jesus face to face
very quickly, and so I thinkthere are so many places in the
church we can get left of bang.
And I honestly think there'ssome rootedness in purity
culture when we talk aboutsexual abuse and we're telling

(48:59):
boys, in the purity cultureparadigm, you are nothing but
your lust and your desire andyour sexual conquest, and this
is what makes you a man, asopposed to what God says, what
makes you a man.
And then we're telling girlswell, you're the gatekeeper, and
so we're diminishing imagebearers of the living God on
both sides to say that you arenothing more than sexual
intercourse and that's a problem.

(49:20):
And so we raise children to bein this place.
So what if we started withhealthy relational dynamics that
look like Jesus from I don'tknow birth, but like for sure
middle school, and we talk aboutthings like pornography which
sets up the other party, whetherit is same sex pornography or
heterosexual pornography.

(49:41):
It sets up you as a dominantindividual, so the aggressor,
whether they, and there's alwaysa weaker person.
There's very rarely, if ever,true consent, and never mind the
human trafficking of it all.
But this is what people aredrinking in, and Pure Desire
Ministries commissioned Barna Ithink it was last year the study

(50:02):
came out to do a study ofpornography in the church and,
holy Toledo, the numbers wereepic, the number of pastors who
engage in that.
So if that's where your head is,sin doesn't stay stagnant.
Right?
You might be like this is acute little lion.
I have adopted a cub, he'sadorable, it's so cute.
And then you're like I'll justfeed it steak, right?

(50:22):
The next thing you know, it'san adolescent lion and you've
lost an arm.
And then we have an adult lionand it will consume you and you
may be able to keep it at bayand make enough steaks that
maybe it stays hidden, but atsome point it won't.
And even if it always does, godknows and you're harming people
and God knows and he says heholds teachers to a higher
standard.
And if that doesn't terrifypeople, I don't know if you have

(50:45):
the appropriate fear of God, ifI'm being honest.
And so if we really try to getleft of bang in the church and
say let's work on the brokenness, you know that we are seeing
and teach people healthyrelationships from jump.
We're going to find lessdissolution of marriage because
we're going to have healthymarriages right.
We're not going to stand forabuse because we're going to say

(51:06):
this is not here, not on mywatch, not with the lord, and
we're going to hold those menand women who are abusers
accountable and we're going toinvite them to change and if
they choose not to, we're goinggoing to do what Jesus says turn
them over to Satan and let'ssee what happens.
That is what's in 1 Corinthians.
And so when people are like, oh,matthew 18, I'm like maybe
she's already done that Likeprobably 45 times, we have

(51:26):
surpassed that part of churchdiscipline.
We are ready to move on now andthe less exploitive an
environment we make, is mycontention that the less abusers
will want to be there becauseit will no longer serve them,
and so the ones that are trulywicked and not broken won't
stick around.
The ones who are broken and sayI really regret my sin.

(51:46):
I am broken Like David, I amlike basically doing the
backstroke in a pool of tears onmy couch.
Then those are the people thatwe enter in with and we do the
long haul with and we do themessy with, but we got to be
bold as believers and say nomore, no more.
This doesn't look like Christ.
What are we doing?
We are hurting our sons and ourdaughters.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Wow, well said.
Oh, my goodness, some of whatyou said there totally resonates
with me, particularly aroundkind of positive models of what
healthy sexuality is Like somany churches I've been around,
not only do we not talk aboutsex.
When we do, it's alwaysprohibitions of don't do this,
don't do that.
It's not here's what a healthysexual relationship can look

(52:31):
like.
We need models that arecreating a backdrop of healthy
power sharing and intimacyconnection.
What do these things look likeinstead of what do they not look
like?
Go to the positive, not thenegative.
I am agreeing with you also.
I think I've learned that kindof purity, culture, dynamics and

(52:55):
theology are a setup forblaming women and excusing men's
inappropriate and unacceptablebehavior.
Right, it's just a real setupfor those things.
So I do think that and thereare models, there are people out
there trying to educate thechurch on the very things that
we're talking about.

(53:15):
There are plenty of models.
It's not like I can think ofthem all off the top of my head,
but it's not like it doesn'texist.
It does.
And I really like what you saidtoo, that if we have healthier
church spaces, I feel likemagnets attract so unhealthy
sort of congregations, attractunhealthy leaders and they
flourish and feel comfortable inthose spaces.

(53:37):
So we have healthier spaceswhere clericalism and some of
the other things that you'redescribing here just aren't
present.
That's a turnoff for theunhealthy person.
They're going to part ways andmove on and go somewhere else.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
Yeah, and a lot of churches talk about being known
and I do think that's essential,but for real being known,
without exploitation, I thinkthat would be the caveat that I
add.
And I've been blessed to be inspaces where I am deeply known
by people, in churches I've beenin and that has been beautiful
because really healing doeshappen in community and we do

(54:14):
need each other.
And I think that there is realfear and it's right fear of how
will my disclosures, how will mymessy be handled.
I do think that there arepeople who don't have a high
tolerance for messy.
I think that we could grow inthat capacity.
I think that we could increasesome windows of tolerance, which
would be beautiful, and reallyhave such a more inviting place.

(54:36):
What would it be like to go ona Sunday or Saturday, depending
on when you attend church andfeel like, even in a large
church, I'm known here, I'mwanted, I belong, it's safe
enough.
Now, look, there are going to bethings that happen regardless,
because people be peoply andthere will be things that happen
, which is why we do have tohave systems to handle that when

(54:58):
it occurs.
But it's safe enough in that Ican be known, I can be safe
enough.
I know that if something comesup, the leadership is going to
do its best because we areplatforming.
Men and women who have done thework are doing the work, are
growing in sanctification tolook like Jesus.
Day by day I'm seeing that intheir life they're marked by
humility and not necessarilyjust charisma.

(55:20):
Those are things that I hopethat we see.
I think that Jesus would haveus see.
I do think we're seeing areckoning.
I think the conference we wereat was a bit of example of that,
because there were a wholebunch of people talking about it
, a bunch of people inattendance.
But I think that there's somuch more to be done and I know
that the survivors listening tous are like yes.
And they probably wouldn't wantto be as nice to abusive

(55:41):
individuals as maybe.
I am, but I also wouldn't callit nice.
I'd call it kind andinvitational, because walking in
sin is a death sentence.
I think that there's so muchbeauty and goodness and it's my
hope that, as you do your nextset of research I'm super
curious about it.
I'm very excited to hear aboutit that the church would go.
Hey, this is an ally, these areallied places.

(56:02):
We are all one body, regardlessof our traditions.
Like I am solid rock and rolland slightly heavy metal.
I am Gen X and definitely feralon some days.
So I'm going to be at a churchthat's like more of the jeans
and t-shirt rock band kind.
I mean there are going to bepeople who are more liturgy and
hymns and all of us are sowelcome in the kingdom.

(56:22):
And if we, instead of lookingat differences, looked at Jesus,
I feel like things would bevery, very different and that
when we look at, like yourresearch, and go, what can we do
with this data?
How can we make sure that thisisn't descriptive of our church?
We're going to see lots ofgoodness.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
It's interesting Everything you've just said.
I'm like, yeah, I'm tracking,I'm hearing you.
I think one of the things thatI want to last things I want to
get in here, is I and I don'tknow why this feels so
compelling to me right thismoment but when I think about
some of the people that I workwith clinically and I'm in sort

(57:00):
of other conversations beyondthat is that survivors as they
heal their theology changes.
Survivors as they heal theirtheology changes and what I'm
learning, and so, whether wecall it deconstruction or
whatever, but they become moreclear about I don't believe this
anymore and I now see that thisthing going on in my church is
really unhealthy.

(57:20):
So they have clarity, they havediscernment, they have wisdom.
They can't unsee what they'veseen and that wisdom.
There is a profound and deepwisdom that resides with people
and it's and how should I sayit's not just about what would
make churches safer or healthier, but I honestly think that they

(57:43):
have a better theology and it'sstrange where we think only our
ministers and only our prophetsand our leaders or whatever.
No, I think our survivors havetremendous wisdom about how God
is, what is God in the world andhow.
In an era where it was.
Just I feel like I was invitedto conform rather than be

(58:14):
transformed in an ongoingprocess and basis.
But being transformed isuntamed.
It can't be managed andcontrolled by others Like you're
a force to be reckoned with,you're a force for change and I
think I would love to see thechurch more embrace some of that

(58:35):
more, rather than trying to fitpeople into molds and asking us
or demanding our conformityLike transformative people.
Right, they're human, they'remessy, but yet they're alive and
new things are happening.
As much as we've been hittingsome really heavy, hard,
traumatic stuff that's full oflament and grief, I think I'm

(59:00):
more excited about healing, likechurches actually being healing
spaces, than I've ever been inmy entire existence.
Right, and this is just anotherwave of the church being the
church, but we're just a part ofit and I think some of these
conversations are a part of it'sa catalyst, it brings light, it
brings fire, it brings reform,it brings awareness and

(59:20):
awakening all these things.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
Absolutely, and I think that that is the essence,
right, the essence of I'm goingto say it this way and it's from
the Chronicles of Narnia, right, is he safe?
No, but he's good, right, andreally being sold out and I hate

(59:44):
that in a way, because Godbless America.
That was so distorted in churchfor me, but being sold out for
Jesus and all.
I'm a child of the eighties andnineties but honestly, like
really really being holy gods,you are going to have shifts in
theology and the one I look atmy own shifts in theology.
I look at other survivors,shifts in theology and when it

(01:00:05):
comes to salvific theology, likewhat goes to how we get to
heaven and all that, for mostpeople that doesn't change,
right, because that is prettystraightforward.
But how we walk with the weakand the broken, how we
understand darkness, how weunderstand Jesus's goodness,
even in the darkness, holyshifts, right and that is

(01:00:26):
beautiful.
One of my favorite experiencesof all time I was serving in an
Anabaptist so Mennonite, amish,german, baptist Women's Retreat
for Survivors of Abuse and I wasutterly changed during
communion because these womenhad been excommunicated.
And if you don't know anythingabout plain communities, when
you are ostracized, like it'sreally severe because your whole

(01:00:47):
world is your community and insome ways you haven't been out
in the rest of the world in alot of ways.
When you are ostracized, it'sreally severe because your whole
world is your community and insome ways you haven't been out
in the rest of the world in alot of ways.
So you have to learn a lot ofthings, and financial control is
a whole thing.
But these women took communionwith this liturgy and reverence
I have never seen before and Iremember just being undone and
being like I have taken this forgranted, the sacrifice of my

(01:01:08):
Savior and the imagery that hecalls us to at the Last Supper.
I am wicked for that, becauseI'm not taking it seriously, and
I just remember repenting,sitting in my seat and crying
and saying Lord, let me nevertake your sacrifice for granted
ever again, because this is whatI stand on for life.
This is what I stand on thatsays you are coming and one day

(01:01:29):
all that is sad will be untrueand I can bank on it and bet my
life on it.
And I think from survivors, aswe see them shift and change and
grow, we can go.
That's real faith.
That's real faith.
And so again, survivors' voicesare so important in all of this
.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Voices are so important in all of this.
Indeed, I couldn't have said itbetter yeah, survivors' voices
as they are transformed and asthey heal.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
That's one of the pieces that I really want to dig
deep in, and it's what I wantedto dig deep in 10 years ago.
But I think we have more peopleaware of their experiences.
They have a name for what'shappened, they have some
processes available for healing,places and spaces where people
can heal, and to capture theessence of how that's happening,

(01:02:18):
why it's happening, what ishappening would be so powerful.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
And I would really like one day the data to show
survivors didn't heal in spiteof the wickedness that happened
to them.
But survivors healed becausepeople who cared decided there
should be change and gave themspace for it.
Because I think that, I mean,God is so good, he's not going
to leave anything wasted for us.
He's going to heal us.
He's so good, but we can healwith less trauma.

(01:02:45):
That would be real fun, and soI would, just, as we close up
here, invite the church.
If you've been bold enough tolisten to our conversation, I
invite you.
Ask yourself what could it belike in the space that I worship
, Whether it's a home church,whether it's a big church,
whether it's somewhere inbetween.

(01:03:06):
What would it be like if wetook these concepts and said
once you see, you can't unsee,and let's do something different
by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Dr Pooler, you are a delight.
I am so grateful that youjoined me today.
Thank you for your time, Thankyou for this conversation and
thank you for your work.
It's such important work andI'm so grateful for you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, I'm grateful to be a partof the community of people
wanting to make change andwanting to see change and boldly
stepping into and courageouslystepping into a place, and I
love how you said it we can healwith less trauma.
I've never heard anyone saythat quite like that, but that
is so true.

(01:03:44):
That's exactly what I'm reallyafter.
It's like we can do a betterjob of responding and healing.
We don't have to create moreproblems and more hurt and more
trauma.
We can do it with much lesstrauma.
In fact, we can have a wholedifferent path forward, and so
thanks for inviting theconversation and having me on
here.
I've immensely enjoyed it,thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Thanks for joining me for today's episode of hey
Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.