March 31, 2025 • 27 mins
What happens when your deepest wounds are intertwined with your body, your faith, and your sexuality—the very things intended to foster joy, life, and connection? Today, we're courageously confronting the silence surrounding sexual trauma within Christian spaces.
Tabitha Westbrook sits down with her friend & colleague, Colleen Ramser, to discuss her new book Body & Soul, Healed & Whole: An Invitational Guide to Healthy Sexuality After Trauma, Abuse, and Coercive Control.
In this episode, Colleen and Tabi discuss:
- Sexual trauma is widespread but rarely discussed in church settings, leaving many Christian women without language to process their experiences
- Purity culture has created harmful frameworks around sexuality, making women responsible for men's behavior and limiting honest conversations
- Understanding trauma responses like reenactments helps shift the question from "what is wrong with you?" to "what happened to you?"
- Scripture on marital sexuality has often been distorted, while true biblical intimacy involves mutual submission, consent, and honoring boundaries
- Healing involves breaking "curses and vows" formed during trauma and building new neural pathways aligned with God's truth
- Arousal templates developed during trauma explain why survivors may be drawn to harmful sexual patterns, but these can be rewired
- The book offers hope for both single and married Christians that sexual healing is possible regardless of relationship status
Find Body & Soul, Healed & Whole at all major retailers or visit tabithawestbrook.com for direct links to purchase the book.
Connect with Colleen Ramser here - https://colleenramser.com/
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
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🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud, withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
What happens when your deepestwounds are tied to your body,
your faith and your sexualitythe very things meant to give
(00:43):
life joy and connection?
Today we're going to break thesilence and we are going to talk
about sexual trauma inChristian spaces.
We're going to talk about mynew book, body and Soul, Healed
and Whole An Invitational Guideto Healthy Sexuality After
Trauma, abuse and CoerciveControl.
And I'm not by myself.
I am with somebody prettyawesome, so I'm going to let her
introduce herself.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I am with somebody pretty awesome, so I'm going to
let her introduce herself.
My name is Colleen Ramster.
I'm a good friend of Tabby'sand I'm really excited about her
book.
We both do very similar work,and so I was super excited to
get to interview her on herpodcast.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Was it?
Michael Scott said oh, how theturntables have turned or
something, I don't know it wasthat was a really bad, bad quote
from the office.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I butchered that badly.
I love the office, but it hasbeen overtaken by.
This Is Us now.
That is my new favorite.
Tell your listeners a littlebit about your book, just to
give them a little taste of whatyou've been doing.
For gosh, how long has it beenLike what?
Two years.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Two years.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, I've had the privilege of seeing the book
baby in the belly.
I've had the privilege ofseeing it start to come alive to
the point that it is now.
So it's just been a greatprivilege to be able to do that.
Tell me a little bit about thebook.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
So the book really is meant to be an invitational
guide.
So many women have had theirsexuality just shattered,
whether that was throughchildhood molestation, whether
that was through some sort ofassault or harm during
teenagerdom, young adulthood,adulthood, adulthood or even in
an abusive relationship.
I don't know that many women getout of this earth without
(02:17):
having some sort of sexual harmdone and a lot of Christian
women just don't know what to dowith that and it's not really
talked about in the church, anda lot of Christian women just
don't know what to do with thatand it's not really talked about
in the church.
So this truly is a veryinvitational, very embodied,
very much not preachy not totake two verses and call me in
the morning book on healing and,first of all, understanding
what happened and what happensto your body in that place, what
(02:39):
happens to your soul, and thenwhat an embodied healing looks
like and how to walk forwardwith an intact or completely new
sexuality or a sexuality in thefirst place, when you're like
gosh, I didn't even have one,because bad things happen so
young, right, I mean, this bookis monumental, honestly, because
there really isn't any languagefor this in the church.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I've read your book and it is like this in the
church.
I've read your book and it islike nobody is talking about
this.
I hear about it in my office asa therapist and I hear women
feeling like they don't knowwhere to go.
Like, how do I talk about someof this?
What feels like shameful thingsthat are coming up in my
thoughts and in my body after Ihave experienced sexual assault
or sexual abuse.
(03:21):
So can you tell the listeners alittle bit about what some of
the language that you reallybring to light, maybe a few of
them that seem to be likenon-existent in the church, or
just talk a little bit about,like, how there is no language,
what that's like.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
It is really hard to have direct conversations, I
think, about sex in the church,particularly if you're a woman.
I think there are some placesfor men, maybe a little bit, but
definitely not really for women.
So we really start with somevocabulary in a lot of ways, of
words that are often overlysexualized and then
(03:59):
disentangling that from justpurely sexual discussion, like
arousal or sensuality.
You know those are words thatare much bigger than just about
sex and they end up gettingpigeonholed and it's a shame
because there's such goodness inthem, and then just talking
about the hard things directlyout loud with our actual lips
(04:21):
and really giving peoplelanguage around harm.
What happened to you, whathappens now because of what
happened to you.
So, really talking about waysthat we respond when we've been
harmed, and helping women have adifferent way to say oh my gosh
(04:42):
, these are the words.
These are the words that makesense, and I think that's been
one of the most interestingthings, as people have read it
is I am hearing.
These are the words I needed tohear.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I didn't know how to say what happened Right, and
there's some listeners that arelike blushing right now.
They're like, oh, you've saidthis, you said that, but there's
so many other women who arejust like gosh just reduces a
lot of the shame, helps them tofeel like I'm not alone in this.
There was a couple of areas,too, where you talked a little
(05:14):
bit about purity culture, justhow that relates, and how
everything just causes people torecoil or cringe or blush, or
we can't talk about that.
Tell us a little bit aboutpurity culture and how that's
impacted a lot of the work thatyou do with victims of sexual
abuse and sexual assault.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, I think part of the reason people blush is
because of purity culture.
We have been told we aren'tallowed to utter these words,
which is just not true.
There's nowhere in the Biblethat says thou shalt not talk
about sex, and the Bible itselftalks about it quite a bit.
It talks about morality interms of that.
It talks about healthysexuality in places which I
(05:54):
don't think people often realize, and so purity culture kind of
messed that up for us, and Ithink it started off well.
I'm sure that it was wellintended, but it was not well
executed, much like thePharisees, and so adding rules
and regulations and things likethat actually only served to
allow for abuse.
(06:14):
So by saying that women are thearbiters of men's sexuality,
then you say that women areessentially an object and we're
responsible for someone else'sheart and sin, which is not what
God says.
But when you're in that place,then you're like well, I'm not
allowed to talk about it, I'mnot supposed to think about sex
until I am married, and then I'msupposed to think about it as
often as my spouse thinks aboutit and do it as often as my
(06:36):
spouse says that they want to doit.
And then what do you do ifyou're single and you have
feelings and the church didn'teven talk about that, because if
you're single you're notsupposed to have feelings, but
that is also not how we'recreated.
So really putting aside thingsthat are not of the Lord and
being able to say we can have anabsolutely God honoring
(06:57):
discussion that is frank anddirect about sex for women and
being very safe in those spacesand also not demeaning men in
those spaces there aredestructive men I mean, that is
a big portion of what I do andthere is harmful things that
have happened.
But not all men are that wayand if we reduce all men down to
(07:18):
their sexuality, then we havedone them a disservice.
But I'm also not minimizing harmeither, you know there are men
who have taken the mantle frompurity culture that says, once
you're married, your wife willbe your absolute sexual
everything, and they have adistortion because it's
pornified right.
It really the way that that'slanguaged to young men very
(07:40):
often is she'll be your personalporn star.
First of all, pornography isimmoral and it is not helpful.
It is adultery.
Second, also, that is not whata woman's role is.
That's not what the Lord callsher.
That is not how the Lord speaksof women.
And so you've then put thisthing on a woman that opens up
(08:00):
the ability to be abused,because if she's supposed to be
your everything, and then we'vedistorted scripture like
submission and things like that,then we are opening things up
to stuff like marital rape, andI know for some people you went
when I said I want to go there.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I definitely that's.
That was gonna be the next.
It's got purity culture whichis like on one side of the
spectrum which is very don't dothis, don't do this, that, don't
say that.
You know, keep yourself, don't,don't kiss, don't.
You know, everybody has theirpersonal convictions when it
comes to, you know, touch andthings like that.
But then you have the other endof the spectrum.
When you get married it's likethis your body is mine sexually.
(08:40):
And can you open up to thelisteners a little bit more on
what's in your book, which isjust priceless, really talking
about marriage and how thisstuff can show up in marriage,
which I know, for some peopleare like what and other people
are like, oh my gosh, that'sexactly what I've been thinking
and feeling.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah.
So, in the book Body and Soul,healed and Whole.
One of the things that I reallydo look at is disentangling the
spiritual abuse that often ispresent as well.
My definition of spiritualabuse is taking someone's good
and right of those things anduse only part of them, which is
(09:27):
really terrible, hermeneuticsfrankly and say well, you know,
you must submit to me.
But the Bible doesn't say wesubmit in all things.
First we submit to Jesus, thenwe submit to each other, and
submission is always voluntary.
It's never forced.
When it becomes forced, it'ssubjugation.
That's slavery.
That's a whole different thingand also not okay with Jesus,
(09:48):
and you know that.
First Corinthian scripture youknow well your body belongs to
me, yes, and your body belongsto me.
It was a game changer in theancient world, because women
didn't ever hear that.
And Jesus said this is how thisworks, right, and so that means
that I could say to my spouse Idon't want your body on my body
.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, I had heard you say that once and I was like,
yes, because it really is almostthis mutual yielding.
Instead of like mutual, likegive your whole self, it's this
mutual sort of like yielding tothe other in terms of you know,
where are they If your spouse isunable to do something sexually
(10:30):
, or maybe they can't at thatevening.
I want to delve into that alittle bit, just even peeling
back the layer of what this morepractically looks like.
It's one thing to bedisappointed that your spouse
can't do something, maybebecause maybe they have a
history of trauma and you knowthat they're not able to do
something sexually because ofsomething that was done to them.
(10:52):
But there's a line you know,like your spouse is not your
just object to make do things.
So can you speak to that forpeople who maybe are in
situations that don't know wherethat line is?
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, we are not guaranteed sex, and when I say
sex I mean intercourse, right,and somehow along the way we
have decided this is the end allbe all of the relationship.
It is an aspect of a healthyrelationship, but it is not the
aspect of intimacy.
There are so many other aspectsof intimacy and there are other
(11:28):
aspects of touch that are notjust intercourse and are not
just certain sexual touch.
We can expand that and reallylook at intimacy in a different
way.
And so if you have someone whois unable or unwilling to do
something because it isuncomfortable, it hits a trauma
space or maybe it's just likethat's not their jam.
(11:49):
We're actually allowed to havepreferences in the bedroom.
It's the craziest thing.
Yes, yes, we should be able tohonor that for our spouses.
There are plenty of otherthings in an honoring,
physically intimate relationshipthat can in fact be done, and
that's an important aspect.
What if your spouse got cancerand physically could not do
something because of cancertreatment?
(12:12):
Why would we vilify that andsay, well, now I'm not getting
what I need.
You know, where is theunderstanding of intimacy and
care and kindness and lovingyour wife's body like you love
your own, which is actually inthe Bible, and you're supposed
to love your wife like you loveyour own body, and you're also
supposed to love her like Christloved the church and gave
(12:32):
himself for her, which was death, by the way and those are
things that are really importantto remember.
And when you're honoring eachother because, again, it's
mutual when you're honoring eachother's limits and men have
sexual harm too, you know theremay be something that a man
can't do because of a physicalissue or because of their own
trauma, and that is okay as well.
(12:55):
So how are we entering in witheach other?
and giving that care and thatkindness and an invitation to
more than just as Sam Joelmanputs it the practice of sex, and
entering into the poetics wherethe heart is at.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, yeah, it's like we you know we've talked about
this before Like we really havea very low view of marriage and
sex and how we view it.
It's just objectification morethan this really beautiful thing
.
It it's just objectificationmore than this really beautiful
thing.
So I'm curious, like now,thinking about, maybe, listeners
who have gone through this, oreven the single women.
We haven't even we didn't eventouch on that, but what are some
(13:32):
of the hopeful things that youoffer in the book in terms of
change?
Someone's sitting there andthey're like, oh my gosh, this
is me, and now you've givenlanguage.
Can you give the listeners alittle bit more about, like, how
you help them through this?
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, so understanding some of your body
responses, some of yourbehavioral responses even, is
such an important thing, becauseit really is a tough space when
you're like I don't know why Iam drawn to this thing, or you
know no-transcript.
(14:27):
So there are things that Iwould say, are probably not in
people's best interest.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
But also no matter what trauma has done to the body
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
But what I'm not going to do is say you know what
?
You're just a sinner.
Go like, say, five Hail Marysor whatever you know, or go play
more, read more yeah cast youranxiety.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, I mean these are great verses, but there's
just a lot more nuance andcomplexity that when someone's
experienced trauma like onething you mentioned in your book
is reenactments and as a traumatherapist as well, I really
appreciated that, becausenobody's talking about that in
the church.
Can you maybe elaborate on thata little bit for listeners?
They might go oh my gosh,that's me.
(15:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, we do things to try to figure out what happened
to us and try to resolve it.
You know, the body keeps thescore and anytime someone says
to me that, oh, it's just amatter of will, no, it isn't.
We are whole people.
There is a component of will,there is a component of our
thinky thinky brains, you know,and not just our feely feely
(15:31):
brains.
Right, we do want everythingonline.
You know, we're not just likemaking feely feely choices and
not thinky thinking them.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
But at the same time.
I want to record that andlisten to that every morning.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yes.
So when we have these spaces ofnot knowing what to do because
something happens maybe ithappened when we were very young
, or it happened so repeatedlyand so egregiously that we just
are trying to figure it out thatwe may go and do something
outside of our values that is anattempt to resolve the trauma
(16:05):
itself.
So, for an example I give inbody and soul healed in whole,
is that you walk into a bar andyou maybe you had been raped by
someone and you walk into a barand then you start going home
with guys, but not sleeping withthem, or even maybe sometimes
you do sleep with them, but youwant to make sure you have the
control and the choice.
This isn't a conscious thing.
You're not like.
(16:26):
This is what I'm going to do toattempt to resolve the trauma
that is residing in my body.
It is this urge that you can'tquite understand.
And then shame follows behindbecause you're like what is
wrong with me?
And the better question is whathappened to you?
And really going at that fromthat place and then beginning to
understand the behaviorsthemselves, like what are you
(16:47):
trying to accomplish?
And this is where a good traumatherapist who understands these
dynamics can really help out ofjust helping you disentangle
that and then make shifts.
So when you feel that like Ineed to go do this because I'm
trying to fix this thing, you goyeah, that, yeah, that doesn't
fix the thing.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
It's not going to fix being raped it just doesn't.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
But I can surf the urge, I can do a number of
things.
I can notice what's happeningin my body.
I can honor my body's desire toresolve it, even though this is
definitely not the best,healthiest, most adaptive way,
right, right, and really pressinto that.
And those are places where,when we stop just shaming people
(17:28):
, we open up to real healing.
You know, I've had manychurches at times tell me, but
you don't know what they'redoing, and I'm like, oh, I do,
they told me in my office, butwhat I'm inviting them to is a
different path, right, and as Iinvite them into that path, as
we process the trauma in theirbodies, using somatic
(17:49):
interventions and things thatare really that bottom up, your
feely feelys, to your thinkythinkies, then we are going to
have a much different outcome.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Typically, yeah, and I love that.
What happened to you and Istarted to think about and what
did you not get to do in themiddle of your trauma and that's
the essence of reenactment isthis constant trying to revisit
it, to be able to fight whereyou didn't get, to run away
where you didn't get to allthese different somatic yes, yes
(18:20):
, and so you also offer in thebook you get at it a little bit
with like curses and vows andhow trauma impacts our body, but
what you're inviting them toinstead, can you highlight that
in terms of some hopefulness forlisteners?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, when we talk about curses and vows, what we
mean are when someone speakssomething over you.
That is not what God says aboutyou.
In order to stay safe, we oftenwill have to act as if that is
true, and then we begin tobelieve that it is, and that's
when we make a vow I'm going tosay this is true about me and
walk from this place, because tonot do so in an abuse situation
(18:56):
is far too dangerous, and Ibelieve that I am what is spoken
over me.
So if I am damaged, goods or awhore or worthless, I begin to
say that is my identity, insteadof what God says about me,
which is I am a daughter of aKing, I'm a Royal priesthood, a
Holy nation, which is a verydifferent paradigm.
Right, and until we startrecognizing we have made vows
(19:19):
and breaking them, then it isvery difficult to shift how we
function in the world.
But when we say I'm going tochoose and it is, I'm going to
say something that is simple butit is always not easy.
So, and you know as a fellowtherapist, simple but not easy,
(19:40):
it's like wow, that's a reallysimple concept and really hard
to do, but we start inviting ourourselves to experience
ourselves differently, that I amgoing to practice a little bit
of opposite action.
I'm going to act as if Ibelieve I am the daughter of a
king.
I know that the Bible says it.
I don't feel it, because thelie feels very true, but I am
(20:01):
going to act as if it is trueand I'm going to function in
that way.
So that means I might set aboundary in a relationship, I
might end a relationship, Imight decide not to walk into an
enactment, I might do a lot ofthings differently and I'm going
to invite my body into adifferent place because my body
is not used to that.
My brain is not used to that,and so we're building
(20:22):
essentially resilience right.
You and I've talked aboutpendulation.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
We go in a little out a little.
In a little out a little.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And so we're going in a little to go.
This feels really difficult andreally hard, even though I know
it's a simple concept, and I'mgoing to go in a little and try
this, and then I'm going to comeout a little and breathe and go
okay, that's what I did today,and then I'm going to keep doing
it and eventually it becomeshow we function.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And then our pathways build and through the Holy
Spirit in us, we start tobelieve what the Lord says,
because we're also experiencingourselves differently A lot of
times, especially for folkswho've been deeply abused.
We find that they really almostcome home to themselves and
start to see who it is that theLord created them to be, and it
(21:09):
is beautiful.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yeah, you offer so much hope in this book and now
we're not even touching on allthe different topics that you
cover in there, but I did wantto talk about one more topic.
If we have some time,absolutely Okay, because you do
talk a little bit about, I thinkis just mind blowing.
Information is arousaltemplates and how people can
(21:31):
create these templates in theirbody that get connected to
things or anything that's sexual.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat, what that is and then how
it shows up for a lot of people?
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Absolutely so.
Let's talk about what anarousal template is.
I don't know if anybody who'slistening besides, like you and
I at this point have thoughtabout what turns me on and why.
How did I get there?
And that is a great question.
Because we all have an arousaltemplate and we have them
outside of just sex and we talkabout that in body and soul,
healed and whole, but we alsohave them related to sex.
(22:15):
So how do we get these thingswoven together that have us
having these sexual feelings?
And when it has been woven inwith harm and violence, we might
find ourselves drawn to thosethings.
We may find ourselves drawn toviolence and sex.
We want it.
You know, quote unquote rough.
In some way we want to feelphysical pain with it, because
(22:38):
that is a turn on, because thatwas woven in during our harm.
And so what fires together,wires together.
So if you have an orgasm in themidst of harm, and it happens
enough times with some otherelements.
We start to become drawn tothat and that can really mess
people up, because when they getout of harm they're like why do
(23:00):
I still feel this way?
Why am I drawn to pornography?
Why do I need these things tofeel arousal?
And it's because it got woveninto the arousal template and we
can disentangle that.
So if you're sitting theregoing, well, that explains a few
things that I've never wantedto say out loud.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
It's so powerful for people.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, and there's a way out, and that's the pieces.
You're like, man, this isn'twhat I want it to stay with, and
we can.
There's a way out, and that'sthe pieces.
You're like, man, this isn'twhat I want it to stay with, and
we can.
There's, there are things youcan do.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, what are some last hopeful words you'd like to
offer to someone who juststumbled across this and they're
like wow, that's me.
What would you like to offer tothem as an encouragement moving
forward, obviously to get thebook for sure and read it?
I think you are such a smart,smart, very smart person who has
a lot of acronyms behind yourname, so this is a very well
(23:53):
done book.
I'll just say that as a littlecaveat.
Now it's your turn.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I will say that, whether you're married or single
, there are things here for you.
I know that my single sistersoften are overlooked and say
well, I can't even talk aboutsex, I'm not allowed to have sex
.
Talk about sex and it's like,well, no, you have sexual
desires, we should actually talkabout them.
And if there's sexualbrokenness.
It can be healed.
Whether you're single ormarried, you do not have to have
(24:19):
a relationship, and there areways to wrestle with desire as a
single woman that we talk aboutin the book and delve into
because it's important.
So I would say that, no matterwhere you are on your journey
and some folks may be listeningto this and go, I don't even
think I can say the S word outloud- and that is honestly where
I started in my own story.
(24:42):
I remember in grad school takinga human sexuality class because
I knew I couldn't say the wordsat that point in time and so
that was like me going Lord,help.
And that was my first journeyinto being able to try to say
these words out loud.
And then the Lord just did allkinds of healing.
But it really was powerful tolearn that it was okay to say
(25:04):
the words.
It was okay to talk aboutthings.
It was okay to question and askthe Lord some things, and so, no
matter where you are in yourjourney, whether you're like I'm
not ready to talk about it oryou're like I really need to
talk about it, I think this bookis for you.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, I love too in the book how you interweave lots
of parts of your story.
It's such a vulnerable act todo that and I know that so many
people will appreciate thatbecause you are talking from
like literal experience ofwalking this out, and I really
appreciated that a lot.
So where can they get your book?
(25:39):
It's coming out April 1st,right, so go get it.
It's a wonderful book.
I've read it and I'm thankfulto get to interview you about it
.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Thank you so much.
And Body and Soul, healed andWhole, is available at every
retailer.
So, whichever your retailer ofchoice is, your purveyor of book
purchasing, you can get thatbook and I have them all linked
on the tabofthewestbrookcomwebsite so you can go to the
body and soul page and it willall be right there for you, and
also link to it in our shownotes.
(26:10):
And I'm really excited that yougot to interview me.
It's a strange thing on yourown podcast to be interviewed by
someone else, but I can't thinkof anybody I'd rather have do
it.
So I'm really glad that we gotto do that together today.
It's super fun.
Thank you for being here with me, and we will also have
Colleen's information in theshow notes because, honestly,
(26:30):
she's amazing and you shouldknow her.
So thanks for hanging out withme today and I will see
everybody on next week's heyTabby.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom, forwardslash hey Tabby.
(26:53):
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud, withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
What happens when your deepestwounds are tied to your body,
your faith and your sexualitythe very things meant to give
(00:43):
life joy and connection?
Today we're going to break thesilence and we are going to talk
about sexual trauma inChristian spaces.
We're going to talk about mynew book, body and Soul, Healed
and Whole An Invitational Guideto Healthy Sexuality After
Trauma, abuse and CoerciveControl.
And I'm not by myself.
I am with somebody prettyawesome, so I'm going to let her
introduce herself.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I am with somebody pretty awesome, so I'm going to
let her introduce herself.
My name is Colleen Ramster.
I'm a good friend of Tabby'sand I'm really excited about her
book.
We both do very similar work,and so I was super excited to
get to interview her on herpodcast.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Was it?
Michael Scott said oh, how theturntables have turned or
something, I don't know it wasthat was a really bad, bad quote
from the office.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I butchered that badly.
I love the office, but it hasbeen overtaken by.
This Is Us now.
That is my new favorite.
Tell your listeners a littlebit about your book, just to
give them a little taste of whatyou've been doing.
For gosh, how long has it beenLike what?
Two years.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Two years.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, I've had the privilege of seeing the book
baby in the belly.
I've had the privilege ofseeing it start to come alive to
the point that it is now.
So it's just been a greatprivilege to be able to do that.
Tell me a little bit about thebook.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
So the book really is meant to be an invitational
guide.
So many women have had theirsexuality just shattered,
whether that was throughchildhood molestation, whether
that was through some sort ofassault or harm during
teenagerdom, young adulthood,adulthood, adulthood or even in
an abusive relationship.
I don't know that many women getout of this earth without
(02:17):
having some sort of sexual harmdone and a lot of Christian
women just don't know what to dowith that and it's not really
talked about in the church, anda lot of Christian women just
don't know what to do with thatand it's not really talked about
in the church.
So this truly is a veryinvitational, very embodied,
very much not preachy not totake two verses and call me in
the morning book on healing and,first of all, understanding
what happened and what happensto your body in that place, what
(02:39):
happens to your soul, and thenwhat an embodied healing looks
like and how to walk forwardwith an intact or completely new
sexuality or a sexuality in thefirst place, when you're like
gosh, I didn't even have one,because bad things happen so
young, right, I mean, this bookis monumental, honestly, because
there really isn't any languagefor this in the church.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I've read your book and it is like this in the
church.
I've read your book and it islike nobody is talking about
this.
I hear about it in my office asa therapist and I hear women
feeling like they don't knowwhere to go.
Like, how do I talk about someof this?
What feels like shameful thingsthat are coming up in my
thoughts and in my body after Ihave experienced sexual assault
or sexual abuse.
(03:21):
So can you tell the listeners alittle bit about what some of
the language that you reallybring to light, maybe a few of
them that seem to be likenon-existent in the church, or
just talk a little bit about,like, how there is no language,
what that's like.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
It is really hard to have direct conversations, I
think, about sex in the church,particularly if you're a woman.
I think there are some placesfor men, maybe a little bit, but
definitely not really for women.
So we really start with somevocabulary in a lot of ways, of
words that are often overlysexualized and then
(03:59):
disentangling that from justpurely sexual discussion, like
arousal or sensuality.
You know those are words thatare much bigger than just about
sex and they end up gettingpigeonholed and it's a shame
because there's such goodness inthem, and then just talking
about the hard things directlyout loud with our actual lips
(04:21):
and really giving peoplelanguage around harm.
What happened to you, whathappens now because of what
happened to you.
So, really talking about waysthat we respond when we've been
harmed, and helping women have adifferent way to say oh my gosh
(04:42):
, these are the words.
These are the words that makesense, and I think that's been
one of the most interestingthings, as people have read it
is I am hearing.
These are the words I needed tohear.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I didn't know how to say what happened Right, and
there's some listeners that arelike blushing right now.
They're like, oh, you've saidthis, you said that, but there's
so many other women who arejust like gosh just reduces a
lot of the shame, helps them tofeel like I'm not alone in this.
There was a couple of areas,too, where you talked a little
(05:14):
bit about purity culture, justhow that relates, and how
everything just causes people torecoil or cringe or blush, or
we can't talk about that.
Tell us a little bit aboutpurity culture and how that's
impacted a lot of the work thatyou do with victims of sexual
abuse and sexual assault.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, I think part of the reason people blush is
because of purity culture.
We have been told we aren'tallowed to utter these words,
which is just not true.
There's nowhere in the Biblethat says thou shalt not talk
about sex, and the Bible itselftalks about it quite a bit.
It talks about morality interms of that.
It talks about healthysexuality in places which I
(05:54):
don't think people often realize, and so purity culture kind of
messed that up for us, and Ithink it started off well.
I'm sure that it was wellintended, but it was not well
executed, much like thePharisees, and so adding rules
and regulations and things likethat actually only served to
allow for abuse.
(06:14):
So by saying that women are thearbiters of men's sexuality,
then you say that women areessentially an object and we're
responsible for someone else'sheart and sin, which is not what
God says.
But when you're in that place,then you're like well, I'm not
allowed to talk about it, I'mnot supposed to think about sex
until I am married, and then I'msupposed to think about it as
often as my spouse thinks aboutit and do it as often as my
(06:36):
spouse says that they want to doit.
And then what do you do ifyou're single and you have
feelings and the church didn'teven talk about that, because if
you're single you're notsupposed to have feelings, but
that is also not how we'recreated.
So really putting aside thingsthat are not of the Lord and
being able to say we can have anabsolutely God honoring
(06:57):
discussion that is frank anddirect about sex for women and
being very safe in those spacesand also not demeaning men in
those spaces there aredestructive men I mean, that is
a big portion of what I do andthere is harmful things that
have happened.
But not all men are that wayand if we reduce all men down to
(07:18):
their sexuality, then we havedone them a disservice.
But I'm also not minimizing harmeither, you know there are men
who have taken the mantle frompurity culture that says, once
you're married, your wife willbe your absolute sexual
everything, and they have adistortion because it's
pornified right.
It really the way that that'slanguaged to young men very
(07:40):
often is she'll be your personalporn star.
First of all, pornography isimmoral and it is not helpful.
It is adultery.
Second, also, that is not whata woman's role is.
That's not what the Lord callsher.
That is not how the Lord speaksof women.
And so you've then put thisthing on a woman that opens up
(08:00):
the ability to be abused,because if she's supposed to be
your everything, and then we'vedistorted scripture like
submission and things like that,then we are opening things up
to stuff like marital rape, andI know for some people you went
when I said I want to go there.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I definitely that's.
That was gonna be the next.
It's got purity culture whichis like on one side of the
spectrum which is very don't dothis, don't do this, that, don't
say that.
You know, keep yourself, don't,don't kiss, don't.
You know, everybody has theirpersonal convictions when it
comes to, you know, touch andthings like that.
But then you have the other endof the spectrum.
When you get married it's likethis your body is mine sexually.
(08:40):
And can you open up to thelisteners a little bit more on
what's in your book, which isjust priceless, really talking
about marriage and how thisstuff can show up in marriage,
which I know, for some peopleare like what and other people
are like, oh my gosh, that'sexactly what I've been thinking
and feeling.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah.
So, in the book Body and Soul,healed and Whole.
One of the things that I reallydo look at is disentangling the
spiritual abuse that often ispresent as well.
My definition of spiritualabuse is taking someone's good
and right of those things anduse only part of them, which is
(09:27):
really terrible, hermeneuticsfrankly and say well, you know,
you must submit to me.
But the Bible doesn't say wesubmit in all things.
First we submit to Jesus, thenwe submit to each other, and
submission is always voluntary.
It's never forced.
When it becomes forced, it'ssubjugation.
That's slavery.
That's a whole different thingand also not okay with Jesus,
(09:48):
and you know that.
First Corinthian scripture youknow well your body belongs to
me, yes, and your body belongsto me.
It was a game changer in theancient world, because women
didn't ever hear that.
And Jesus said this is how thisworks, right, and so that means
that I could say to my spouse Idon't want your body on my body
.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, I had heard you say that once and I was like,
yes, because it really is almostthis mutual yielding.
Instead of like mutual, likegive your whole self, it's this
mutual sort of like yielding tothe other in terms of you know,
where are they If your spouse isunable to do something sexually
(10:30):
, or maybe they can't at thatevening.
I want to delve into that alittle bit, just even peeling
back the layer of what this morepractically looks like.
It's one thing to bedisappointed that your spouse
can't do something, maybebecause maybe they have a
history of trauma and you knowthat they're not able to do
something sexually because ofsomething that was done to them.
(10:52):
But there's a line you know,like your spouse is not your
just object to make do things.
So can you speak to that forpeople who maybe are in
situations that don't know wherethat line is?
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, we are not guaranteed sex, and when I say
sex I mean intercourse, right,and somehow along the way we
have decided this is the end allbe all of the relationship.
It is an aspect of a healthyrelationship, but it is not the
aspect of intimacy.
There are so many other aspectsof intimacy and there are other
(11:28):
aspects of touch that are notjust intercourse and are not
just certain sexual touch.
We can expand that and reallylook at intimacy in a different
way.
And so if you have someone whois unable or unwilling to do
something because it isuncomfortable, it hits a trauma
space or maybe it's just likethat's not their jam.
(11:49):
We're actually allowed to havepreferences in the bedroom.
It's the craziest thing.
Yes, yes, we should be able tohonor that for our spouses.
There are plenty of otherthings in an honoring,
physically intimate relationshipthat can in fact be done, and
that's an important aspect.
What if your spouse got cancerand physically could not do
something because of cancertreatment?
(12:12):
Why would we vilify that andsay, well, now I'm not getting
what I need.
You know, where is theunderstanding of intimacy and
care and kindness and lovingyour wife's body like you love
your own, which is actually inthe Bible, and you're supposed
to love your wife like you loveyour own body, and you're also
supposed to love her like Christloved the church and gave
(12:32):
himself for her, which was death, by the way and those are
things that are really importantto remember.
And when you're honoring eachother because, again, it's
mutual when you're honoring eachother's limits and men have
sexual harm too, you know theremay be something that a man
can't do because of a physicalissue or because of their own
trauma, and that is okay as well.
(12:55):
So how are we entering in witheach other?
and giving that care and thatkindness and an invitation to
more than just as Sam Joelmanputs it the practice of sex, and
entering into the poetics wherethe heart is at.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, yeah, it's like we you know we've talked about
this before Like we really havea very low view of marriage and
sex and how we view it.
It's just objectification morethan this really beautiful thing
.
It it's just objectificationmore than this really beautiful
thing.
So I'm curious, like now,thinking about, maybe, listeners
who have gone through this, oreven the single women.
We haven't even we didn't eventouch on that, but what are some
(13:32):
of the hopeful things that youoffer in the book in terms of
change?
Someone's sitting there andthey're like, oh my gosh, this
is me, and now you've givenlanguage.
Can you give the listeners alittle bit more about, like, how
you help them through this?
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, so understanding some of your body
responses, some of yourbehavioral responses even, is
such an important thing, becauseit really is a tough space when
you're like I don't know why Iam drawn to this thing, or you
know no-transcript.
(14:27):
So there are things that Iwould say, are probably not in
people's best interest.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
But also no matter what trauma has done to the body
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
But what I'm not going to do is say you know what
?
You're just a sinner.
Go like, say, five Hail Marysor whatever you know, or go play
more, read more yeah cast youranxiety.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, I mean these are great verses, but there's
just a lot more nuance andcomplexity that when someone's
experienced trauma like onething you mentioned in your book
is reenactments and as a traumatherapist as well, I really
appreciated that, becausenobody's talking about that in
the church.
Can you maybe elaborate on thata little bit for listeners?
They might go oh my gosh,that's me.
(15:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, we do things to try to figure out what happened
to us and try to resolve it.
You know, the body keeps thescore and anytime someone says
to me that, oh, it's just amatter of will, no, it isn't.
We are whole people.
There is a component of will,there is a component of our
thinky thinky brains, you know,and not just our feely feely
(15:31):
brains.
Right, we do want everythingonline.
You know, we're not just likemaking feely feely choices and
not thinky thinking them.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
But at the same time.
I want to record that andlisten to that every morning.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yes.
So when we have these spaces ofnot knowing what to do because
something happens maybe ithappened when we were very young
, or it happened so repeatedlyand so egregiously that we just
are trying to figure it out thatwe may go and do something
outside of our values that is anattempt to resolve the trauma
(16:05):
itself.
So, for an example I give inbody and soul healed in whole,
is that you walk into a bar andyou maybe you had been raped by
someone and you walk into a barand then you start going home
with guys, but not sleeping withthem, or even maybe sometimes
you do sleep with them, but youwant to make sure you have the
control and the choice.
This isn't a conscious thing.
You're not like.
(16:26):
This is what I'm going to do toattempt to resolve the trauma
that is residing in my body.
It is this urge that you can'tquite understand.
And then shame follows behindbecause you're like what is
wrong with me?
And the better question is whathappened to you?
And really going at that fromthat place and then beginning to
understand the behaviorsthemselves, like what are you
(16:47):
trying to accomplish?
And this is where a good traumatherapist who understands these
dynamics can really help out ofjust helping you disentangle
that and then make shifts.
So when you feel that like Ineed to go do this because I'm
trying to fix this thing, you goyeah, that, yeah, that doesn't
fix the thing.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
It's not going to fix being raped it just doesn't.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
But I can surf the urge, I can do a number of
things.
I can notice what's happeningin my body.
I can honor my body's desire toresolve it, even though this is
definitely not the best,healthiest, most adaptive way,
right, right, and really pressinto that.
And those are places where,when we stop just shaming people
(17:28):
, we open up to real healing.
You know, I've had manychurches at times tell me, but
you don't know what they'redoing, and I'm like, oh, I do,
they told me in my office, butwhat I'm inviting them to is a
different path, right, and as Iinvite them into that path, as
we process the trauma in theirbodies, using somatic
(17:49):
interventions and things thatare really that bottom up, your
feely feelys, to your thinkythinkies, then we are going to
have a much different outcome.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Typically, yeah, and I love that.
What happened to you and Istarted to think about and what
did you not get to do in themiddle of your trauma and that's
the essence of reenactment isthis constant trying to revisit
it, to be able to fight whereyou didn't get, to run away
where you didn't get to allthese different somatic yes, yes
(18:20):
, and so you also offer in thebook you get at it a little bit
with like curses and vows andhow trauma impacts our body, but
what you're inviting them toinstead, can you highlight that
in terms of some hopefulness forlisteners?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, when we talk about curses and vows, what we
mean are when someone speakssomething over you.
That is not what God says aboutyou.
In order to stay safe, we oftenwill have to act as if that is
true, and then we begin tobelieve that it is, and that's
when we make a vow I'm going tosay this is true about me and
walk from this place, because tonot do so in an abuse situation
(18:56):
is far too dangerous, and Ibelieve that I am what is spoken
over me.
So if I am damaged, goods or awhore or worthless, I begin to
say that is my identity, insteadof what God says about me,
which is I am a daughter of aKing, I'm a Royal priesthood, a
Holy nation, which is a verydifferent paradigm.
Right, and until we startrecognizing we have made vows
(19:19):
and breaking them, then it isvery difficult to shift how we
function in the world.
But when we say I'm going tochoose and it is, I'm going to
say something that is simple butit is always not easy.
So, and you know as a fellowtherapist, simple but not easy,
(19:40):
it's like wow, that's a reallysimple concept and really hard
to do, but we start inviting ourourselves to experience
ourselves differently, that I amgoing to practice a little bit
of opposite action.
I'm going to act as if Ibelieve I am the daughter of a
king.
I know that the Bible says it.
I don't feel it, because thelie feels very true, but I am
(20:01):
going to act as if it is trueand I'm going to function in
that way.
So that means I might set aboundary in a relationship, I
might end a relationship, Imight decide not to walk into an
enactment, I might do a lot ofthings differently and I'm going
to invite my body into adifferent place because my body
is not used to that.
My brain is not used to that,and so we're building
(20:22):
essentially resilience right.
You and I've talked aboutpendulation.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
We go in a little out a little.
In a little out a little.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And so we're going in a little to go.
This feels really difficult andreally hard, even though I know
it's a simple concept, and I'mgoing to go in a little and try
this, and then I'm going to comeout a little and breathe and go
okay, that's what I did today,and then I'm going to keep doing
it and eventually it becomeshow we function.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And then our pathways build and through the Holy
Spirit in us, we start tobelieve what the Lord says,
because we're also experiencingourselves differently A lot of
times, especially for folkswho've been deeply abused.
We find that they really almostcome home to themselves and
start to see who it is that theLord created them to be, and it
(21:09):
is beautiful.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yeah, you offer so much hope in this book and now
we're not even touching on allthe different topics that you
cover in there, but I did wantto talk about one more topic.
If we have some time,absolutely Okay, because you do
talk a little bit about, I thinkis just mind blowing.
Information is arousaltemplates and how people can
(21:31):
create these templates in theirbody that get connected to
things or anything that's sexual.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat, what that is and then how
it shows up for a lot of people?
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Absolutely so.
Let's talk about what anarousal template is.
I don't know if anybody who'slistening besides, like you and
I at this point have thoughtabout what turns me on and why.
How did I get there?
And that is a great question.
Because we all have an arousaltemplate and we have them
outside of just sex and we talkabout that in body and soul,
healed and whole, but we alsohave them related to sex.
(22:15):
So how do we get these thingswoven together that have us
having these sexual feelings?
And when it has been woven inwith harm and violence, we might
find ourselves drawn to thosethings.
We may find ourselves drawn toviolence and sex.
We want it.
You know, quote unquote rough.
In some way we want to feelphysical pain with it, because
(22:38):
that is a turn on, because thatwas woven in during our harm.
And so what fires together,wires together.
So if you have an orgasm in themidst of harm, and it happens
enough times with some otherelements.
We start to become drawn tothat and that can really mess
people up, because when they getout of harm they're like why do
(23:00):
I still feel this way?
Why am I drawn to pornography?
Why do I need these things tofeel arousal?
And it's because it got woveninto the arousal template and we
can disentangle that.
So if you're sitting theregoing, well, that explains a few
things that I've never wantedto say out loud.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
It's so powerful for people.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, and there's a way out, and that's the pieces.
You're like, man, this isn'twhat I want it to stay with, and
we can.
There's a way out, and that'sthe pieces.
You're like, man, this isn'twhat I want it to stay with, and
we can.
There's, there are things youcan do.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, what are some last hopeful words you'd like to
offer to someone who juststumbled across this and they're
like wow, that's me.
What would you like to offer tothem as an encouragement moving
forward, obviously to get thebook for sure and read it?
I think you are such a smart,smart, very smart person who has
a lot of acronyms behind yourname, so this is a very well
(23:53):
done book.
I'll just say that as a littlecaveat.
Now it's your turn.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I will say that, whether you're married or single
, there are things here for you.
I know that my single sistersoften are overlooked and say
well, I can't even talk aboutsex, I'm not allowed to have sex
.
Talk about sex and it's like,well, no, you have sexual
desires, we should actually talkabout them.
And if there's sexualbrokenness.
It can be healed.
Whether you're single ormarried, you do not have to have
(24:19):
a relationship, and there areways to wrestle with desire as a
single woman that we talk aboutin the book and delve into
because it's important.
So I would say that, no matterwhere you are on your journey
and some folks may be listeningto this and go, I don't even
think I can say the S word outloud- and that is honestly where
I started in my own story.
(24:42):
I remember in grad school takinga human sexuality class because
I knew I couldn't say the wordsat that point in time and so
that was like me going Lord,help.
And that was my first journeyinto being able to try to say
these words out loud.
And then the Lord just did allkinds of healing.
But it really was powerful tolearn that it was okay to say
(25:04):
the words.
It was okay to talk aboutthings.
It was okay to question and askthe Lord some things, and so, no
matter where you are in yourjourney, whether you're like I'm
not ready to talk about it oryou're like I really need to
talk about it, I think this bookis for you.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, I love too in the book how you interweave lots
of parts of your story.
It's such a vulnerable act todo that and I know that so many
people will appreciate thatbecause you are talking from
like literal experience ofwalking this out, and I really
appreciated that a lot.
So where can they get your book?
(25:39):
It's coming out April 1st,right, so go get it.
It's a wonderful book.
I've read it and I'm thankfulto get to interview you about it
.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Thank you so much.
And Body and Soul, healed andWhole, is available at every
retailer.
So, whichever your retailer ofchoice is, your purveyor of book
purchasing, you can get thatbook and I have them all linked
on the tabofthewestbrookcomwebsite so you can go to the
body and soul page and it willall be right there for you, and
also link to it in our shownotes.
(26:10):
And I'm really excited that yougot to interview me.
It's a strange thing on yourown podcast to be interviewed by
someone else, but I can't thinkof anybody I'd rather have do
it.
So I'm really glad that we gotto do that together today.
It's super fun.
Thank you for being here with me, and we will also have
Colleen's information in theshow notes because, honestly,
(26:30):
she's amazing and you shouldknow her.
So thanks for hanging out withme today and I will see
everybody on next week's heyTabby.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom, forwardslash hey Tabby.
(26:53):
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
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