June 16, 2025 • 27 mins
What if what you were taught about God isn't what God actually wanted you to believe?
In this powerful episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook dives deep into what happens when our theology has been shaped by fear, shame, spiritual abuse, or coercive control. If you've ever questioned your faith because of how it was used against you, this episode offers permission to wrestle, reexamine, and rebuild.
Tabitha explores:
- How faith gets twisted in abusive environments
- The weaponization of submission, forgiveness, and suffering
- What deconstruction really means (and why it’s not a dirty word)
- How disentangling false beliefs can lead to healing and deeper connection with God
- The difference between condemnation and conviction
- Why Jesus never sided with abusers, and how God actually responds to your questions
Whether you’re in the middle of reexamining long-held beliefs, grieving spiritual harm, or just wondering where God is in your story, this episode will meet you with truth, tenderness, and hope.
📥 Download the free reflection guide mentioned in this episode: tabithawestbrook.com/heytabi
🎧 Listen to Safe to Hope, Season 6 Episode 2, Jesus is My Captain here - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/season-6-episode-2-jesus-is-my-captain/id1643769999?i=1000690797075
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com
💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
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👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!
🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
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Episode Transcript
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Tabitha Westbrook (00:00):
What if what you were taught about God isn't
(00:03):
what God actually wanted you tobelieve?
What if it isn't accurate?
Well, if your faith story hasbecome tangled with fear, shame
or silence, this episode is foryou.
Welcome to hey Tabby, thepodcast where we talk about the
hard things out loud, with ouractual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
(00:23):
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
(00:44):
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
Welcome to this week's hey Tabby.
I'm really excited that you'rehere with me.
We are going to talk a littlebit today about what I am
calling Holy Shift, and that iswhen we start to take a look at
(01:05):
our theology and what we'vealways been told and say is that
true, is that accurate, what isthe real truth here and where
are we at?
And so we're going to talk alittle bit about that today and
walk through some differentthings that are just worth
thinking about.
We're going to start off withwhat happens when faith gets
twisted by abuse or coercivecontrol.
(01:28):
Spiritual abuse and we'vetalked about this a number of
times on this program can reallydo a number on what you believe
about God, what you believeabout yourself.
Just as a reminder, mydefinition of spiritual abuse
and I have this in my book Bodyand Soul, healed and Whole as
well is weaponizing someone'sgood and right devotion to God
(01:50):
against them.
So it is taking their truedesire to follow the Lord and
weaponizing it as means ofcontrol and saying well, this is
what it looks like to followGod and essentially what it does
is.
It takes the concept ofsubmitting to teaching doctrine,
(02:11):
leaders, spouses, and twists itinto something that God never
says that it is and that can getreally tricky, because if you
really want to follow the Lordand you've been taught I have to
listen to my leaders, I have tosubmit here, don't speak
against the Lord's anointed, andthings like that that so many
of us have heard then it canactually take our voice from us
(02:35):
and it creates this picture andpainting of God that is anything
but actual God and it doesn'tlook a thing like how he
presents himself in the totalityof scripture.
We also find that with a highcontrol space or coercive
control and abuse in spiritualrealms, forgiveness ends up
(02:55):
being weaponized as a way todismiss us.
So if someone harms you, let'ssay it is a pastor, let's say it
is an abusive or coercivelycontrolling spouse, and you're
told well, you have to forgive.
God says forgive 70 times 7.
And forgiveness in that momentis equated with total
reconciliation and not actuallysolving the problem.
(03:16):
Now, I know that can be atricky space because we are
called to forgive.
There's a lot around that, butforgiveness does not necessarily
mean reconciliation.
If someone is an axe murderer,let's say, and they have hacked
up half the church, we'll justuse that as a ridiculous example
(03:37):
here, right, then you would say, yes, I can forgive this person
for the actions that they took,but I'm not going to hang out
with them because they aredangerous.
And I think that when wemisstate and misapply what
forgiveness actually is, we'reasking people go hang out with
an ex-murderer that hasn'trepented and changed at all.
You just have to forgive andforget because they said pretty
(03:58):
words.
And we know that that's notaccurate, but if you are trying
really hard to be a faithfulbeliever, it can get really
tricky if you're told well, thisis what it looks like and
you've never had the opportunityto think about it differently.
Also, we find in these spacesthat suffering is glorified, and
I have had so many survivorssay to me I was told to suffer
(04:22):
like Jesus that even in thishorrible situation and they were
able to say that my wickedspouse was in fact horrible I
just had to suck it up andsuffer for Christ because I was
in Christ's sufferings.
And again, that's anothermisstatement of what the Bible
says.
Yes, we are going to suffer inthis world.
It is very clear.
Jesus says it a number of times.
It is throughout the NewTestament.
(04:43):
Things are going to be hard.
However, when you can stopoppression, you should, and
we're called to that.
We're supposed to beanti-oppression as believers,
because God is so.
When we distort what sufferingactually is and what it really
looks like to suffer for thecause of Christ, then we are
also putting people into a cage.
(05:04):
And I often think about thequote from when Home Hurts,
which is by Jeremy Pierre andGreg Wilson, that abuse is a
dangerous reversal of love.
And the thing is, man, it iscouched in words of love.
I am just trying to help you begodly, I am just trying to help
you walk on the path to Jesus,and that is a distortion.
(05:27):
This is really truly what itmeans, in my opinion, to take
the name of the Lord in vain, touse it to create something that
he does not condone or to pushsomething that he does not
condone.
That is absolutely taking thename of the Lord in vain.
It's really, really importantthat when we look at trauma
(05:50):
responses and our understandingof things that we aren't saying,
hey, this is a lack of faith.
We understand things rightly asa trauma response, and we
understand that it is reallydifficult to disentangle a lot
of these things.
So I'm going to use a word herethat a lot of folks really
struggle with in the church, andthat is the word deconstruction
(06:10):
, and I want to define it well.
So some of you just heard thatand I think you thought, oh, my
goodness, I think she prettymuch just used a curse word,
because it's become equated withthat and I've said this before
as well that there are plenty ofpeople who misuse this, plenty
(06:31):
of people who utilize this todenigrate our faith and all
kinds of things.
Just like everything, there arepeople in good spaces and
people in harmful spaces, but Iwant to talk about what it
really is, versus just thebuzzword that it's pretty much
become.
So, first of all,deconstruction isn't the end of
faith.
Honestly, there are a lot ofpeople who say, hey, this was
actually the beginning ofsomething very authentic for me,
that was outside of the highcontrol and abuse that I walked
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in.
I'm going to use another wordfor it.
I'm going to use two actuallythroughout this podcast that I
prefer to deconstruction.
One is disentangling.
I'm not completely dismantlingmy faith at all.
When I am looking at things,I'm disentangling it.
I'm disentangling it fromthings that were not of God,
things that are not in the Bibleand things that it got stuck to
(07:20):
that it should never have beenstuck to.
So, like I was talking aboutforgiveness.
Well, if I was talking aboutforgiveness, well, if I always
believed that forgiveness wasnow I have to forget and just
suffer, then I'm going todisentangle from that harmful
teaching and press intosomething more accurate.
So I'm going to pull thosethreads out that don't need to
be there and weave somethingdifferent.
(07:42):
The other word that I like touse for this is sanctification,
and we are being changed fromglory to glory to be like Jesus,
something that I might havebelieved been taught.
I need to reevaluate that.
We're always supposed tocontinually go through the
scriptures and learn and ask theLord to bear weight on our
(08:02):
heart from the gospel and fromhis word and from the spirit,
and there are going to be thingsthat I read when I had a
different understanding ofsomething and go wait, is that
really what this says?
And maybe I'm going to go do aword study.
Maybe I'm going to go dosomething that helps me
understand a little bit more ofthe original context.
And if you have not learned howto study the Bible, I
(08:25):
definitely encourage you go backto the episode on biblical
literacy.
There are some great resourcesin how to study the Bible well
and how to learn how tounderstand it for yourself.
And a lot of times we want totake the word of our pastors and
elders and leaders and spousesvery seriously.
Sometimes they've gone toseminary and they have a lot of
(08:46):
knowledge.
But honestly, wisdom is morethan just knowing stuff.
Wisdom is knowing what to dowith the stuff that you know,
one of my favorite memes issomething along the lines of
knowledge is knowing that atomato is a fruit, and wisdom is
knowing you shouldn't put it ina fruit salad.
And sometimes I think we havefolks who, to achieve their own
(09:07):
ends or because they just don'tknow, think that we're going to
shove that tomato in a fruitsalad, and so they're using
knowledge that it's a fruit andabsolutely not using wisdom that
you shouldn't put it in withyour strawberries.
We want to be able to workthrough our sanctification, and
that does mean challengingthings that we have believed
maybe forever, especially if yougrew up in the church, and
(09:30):
that's not a bad thing.
When we wrestle and we questionand we ask, we are more able to
have a fuller understanding ofour own faith, and that's really
good.
That's important.
I want to just normalize thatthis actually has been something
that has been going on sincethe beginning of time, where we
have had to work out our faithand we have had to try to
(09:51):
understand different thingsabout God.
And as we age and we get wisdomof life, I also think that
presses us in to differentplaces as well.
You know what I understood atthe age of 20 and what I
understand now, which is likenearly three decades later, is
still much different.
I have life experiences.
I have experiences with peopleand I have more experiences with
(10:14):
God, and that is superimportant.
Also, it helps us disentanglefrom the systems that are not
really following the Lord.
I've said this before manytimes it is a quote from Dr
Diane Langberg that Jesus didnot come to die for systems.
He came to die for the peoplein the systems, and that is so
(10:35):
accurate.
So sometimes we have to look atthe system that we are walking
in and go is this really whatthe Lord has?
Now?
Look, no church system is goingto be perfect.
You want them to be safe enough, right, they're still run by
people.
Things happen.
But when you have humility andleadership, then you can really
ask some harder questions abouthey, why do we do this this way?
(10:58):
Hey, why is this what we'rebeing taught?
And those are good things.
And if you can't do that, thenI would just encourage you to
ask questions anyway of the Lord.
Just because your pastor orelder or leader doesn't want to
answer those questions or gothere with you doesn't mean you
shouldn't.
Our faith is our own and thatis really important.
I also want to speak to folkswho are in more of a high
(11:19):
control space, and that isreally important.
I also want to speak to folkswho are in more of a high
control space, and that isquestioning, is not backsliding.
It is okay to question, and Ireally think that wrestling with
our faith is so important, andGod is not angry.
I mean, look at Job.
God was not mad at Job forasking lots of questions.
(11:40):
Job was like what is happeninghere?
David asked questions of theLord.
There are a lot of people in theBible who are like I don't get
it.
Habakkuk, as he's staring atthe wall, how long, oh Lord, how
long are you going to just letthis happen?
Eek, I don't love this.
These are all really importantquestions and God doesn't vilify
any of them.
He's not mad about any of itand he's not scared of our
(12:00):
questions.
He knows man, he knows, heknows what's already in our
heart, and so if we say, lord, Iwant to understand this better,
he's going to come and show upand help us Now.
Probably not in our timeline.
I'll be honest.
God does not operate in thetimeline I want him to sometimes
, but he's always obviouslyknowing what's going on.
He knows far more abouteverything than I do, but it can
(12:23):
be hard because I like, oh, Iwant answers and maybe I don't
get them right away, but he'snot scared of you asking those
questions at all.
A healthy faith for a survivorof abuse is to eventually
understand that God is safe andnot controlling.
Especially when scripture hasbeen weaponized, we can think
man, god's a narcissist, whatthe heck?
Y'all already know how I feelabout the term narcissist and I
(12:46):
am not a fan, but I know that itcan feel like well, is he just
going to be like these abusersor is he like the abusive
individuals have cast him towardme?
And the answer is no.
I think about folks who've saidto me but in the garden, he
knew it was going to happen, hedid, he gave us free choice.
But he is so tender in thatpassage and this is something
(13:08):
that if you have not heard theepisode with Chuck DeGroote, go
back and listen to it.
We talk about the where are youquestion and the posture of
tenderness that God has.
And if you're like well, how doyou know?
You couldn't hear his tone?
Facts, that's right.
I was not there in the garden.
I am definitely not that old.
What I do know is that he wentand made clothes for them.
(13:29):
He said, yes, there's going tobe a consequence to this, but I
already have your rescue plan.
I'm sure that his heart wasbroken.
If you are a parent, you knowhow it feels when your kids
don't do the good things thatyou have for them, when you're
like, ah, I set this up for youand you went and did something
else instead.
Man, we know, we know how ithurts.
As a parent, I think God'sheart was more broken than angry
(13:54):
and we see his tenderness inthe making of the clothes.
We see his tenderness in sayingthis is how it's going to be,
but I've already got a rescueplan for you, and that is truly
tender.
So he is not a dictator, he isnot a controller.
He is not the angry buzzkill inthe sky.
He's a very tender God with awhole lot of patience.
Jesus also never sided withabusers.
(14:16):
In fact, the harshest words hehad were for wicked church
leadership, the Pharisees andSadducees.
If you go through and read thegospels and really look at who
he said the hard things to, itwasn't the broken and hurting.
Those are the folks that, yes,he said go and sin no more, but
he also healed them, sat withthem, touched them, allowed
(14:37):
himself to be touched by them.
There's such an incrediblegentle and tender space there
for people who are broken, andit was the leaders who thought
they had it all together thatJesus said hey, you are not as
together as you think and youneed to humble yourself.
When you interpret scripturecorrectly, even if it is bearing
weight on something that needsto change, you find freedom, not
(15:00):
condemnation.
Anytime I've ever beenconvicted by something I read,
I'm like, oh ouch, jesus man, wegot to work that out.
It is sad, I'm grieved by mybrokenness, I'm grieved by my
missteps, but I'm not shamed.
And this is hard for a survivorbecause, honestly, sometimes
breathing makes you feel shame,right, like it's just a whole
(15:23):
thing, and I totally understandthat and that is part of our own
work of healing is not likejust doing the backstroke in the
bubble of shame most of thetime because we've been so
conditioned to think everythingis my fault forever.
But when we really interpret itrightly, when we really are
secure in our identity in Christand we're looking at scripture,
(15:43):
it doesn't bring condemnation.
Romans 8, 1 says that there istherefore now no condemnation
for those who are in ChristJesus and called according to
his purpose so important andthat's right.
After Paul is like I cannotseem to get it right.
Go read Romans 7 and 8.
They are absolutely fascinating.
I particularly like the NewLiving Translation for anything
(16:07):
in Romans because Paul is theking of a run-on sentence and it
can get a little lengthy.
But I think the New LivingTranslation, or the NLT, does a
really good job of that.
And so you can look at Paul'swrestle and him go ah, but
thankfully there's nocondemnation because the Lord
has saved him.
He's sealed by the blood heknows.
Reading through scripture with atrauma-informed lens is so
(16:31):
life-giving when you look atwhat is the character of God and
, like it says in James and Iknow I quote this often, but I
love it so much God is not madwhen you ask him for wisdom.
He wants us to.
There's a ton of Proverbs aboutask for wisdom and seek wisdom
and God wants us to do that.
So as we understand our owntrauma, understand what we need
(16:53):
to disentangle from a bit,understand a little bit more
about our own sanctification,then we go who is God really?
And God wants us to know him.
He says that from Genesis toRevelation.
He wants to be known and hemakes himself available to us.
I know that in my own story,disentangling, deconstructing
(17:17):
sanctification whatever youchoose to call it has been at
times really scary, because I amletting go of, in those moments
, things that I was taught, anda lot of times they were tied to
salvation.
And when I look at it now witha greater understanding and
greater depth of Bible study, Ican go that is not what they
(17:40):
call a salvific issue.
That means it doesn't relate toyour salvation.
Right, so don't speak againstthe Lord's anointed something so
often misstated to keep youfrom questioning a wicked leader
.
I look at that and I go oh yeah, but when I was younger, that
was couched with and you'regoing straight to Hades if you
(18:02):
do that.
Right, because there was alwaysa consequence, always some sort
of totalitarian control withthat.
So I've had to go.
Okay, it feels to my body like Iam going to get in trouble, but
here is what I know about Jesus, even if I don't feel safe yet,
knowing this, and I have towork those things out.
(18:25):
Right, I really think this insome ways gets to the essence of
working out our salvation withfear and trembling because we
are potentially pushing againstfamily of origin rules, pushing
against things that we've beentaught in the church, that are
inaccurate and yet all tied towhether or not we are worthy of
heaven, and it is scary.
(18:46):
It is scary when you say Idon't think this is right, I
don't think this is accurateanymore, and you start to let it
go.
It also is really toughsometimes for relationships,
because if you have friends whoare still in that space or
family who is still in thatspace of saying no, no, no, this
high control, twisted versionof God is what's accurate, then
(19:09):
it is going to affectrelationships.
I'm seeing more and more inthis day and age that if you
don't have tacit agreement withsomething, that people will just
get rid of you as arelationship, and I am not a fan
of that.
I do think that, especially withthings that are not salvific
issues, things that do notpertain to actual salvation and
there is a lot that is in thatgray area in the Bible that is,
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you know, we can come todifferent spaces that those are
things I think we should holdgently with each other.
I would hope that the peoplethat know me, that are maybe in
a different place from where Iam currently, would really lean
in and say I love you, I knowthat you love Jesus, and so I'm
going to hold this tension withyou instead of push against you.
(19:55):
And I am all for good debate, Iam all for let's go look at
this together, let's wrestlethrough it together.
But it's super important tolook at the other person not as
an infidel or backslidden orwhatever else you want to call
an individual and say I love you, I know you love the Lord.
(20:17):
I'm going to wrestle with you.
We can have intense debates, wecan wrestle through things
together, but at the end of theday, you are still my brother or
sister in Christ and we'regoing to stand together in that.
And I think that overcomes theenemy's attempts at division in
these spaces.
And you don't have to make afriend agree with you if you're
in a different place, but youcan love them well and say I
(20:40):
don't understand this and if youfeel like, oh my gosh, they're
just like sliding right into aterrible place, like maybe pray
for them, maybe look at it fromtheir perspective, maybe ask
more questions, which, again, Ithink is a bit of a lost art
these days and that's veryunfortunate.
If this is really tough for you, I really would encourage you
(21:00):
to find a therapist that canhelp you wrestle with it.
And again, this is where Iwould say a faith-based
therapist who is not a legalistindividual or a.
Let me tell you what youshouldn't believe, because there
are some therapists out therethat are just not doing very
good, and biblical counselors aswell.
There's some really excellentones that are biblical
counselors and therapists andsome really terrible ones.
(21:22):
So interview well, but reallywrestle through it, maybe in
that space, or find a safepastor who's willing to do the
wrestle with you and not tellyou what to do.
And there are those people inthe world as well.
And I know if you have beenhurt in your faith and you are
disentangling and workingthrough your sanctification, it
can feel like is there anybodysafe and good?
(21:44):
And I assure you that there are.
It does take work to find them,it does take lots of questions,
it can be a little bit of amessy process and I hate that.
I truly hate that.
But it's really important tofind community support that is
going to wrestle with you butnot tell you what to believe.
At the end of the day, yourfaith is yours and yours alone,
(22:05):
between you and God.
Because at the end of the day,the end of all the days, we're
going to stand before Godwithout anybody around us.
It's going to be us and him.
I want to say I have wrestledhonestly and I have sought Jesus
and trust him.
For the rest, if he's God, hecan absolutely be trusted.
For the rest, I know that ittakes an enormous amount of
(22:27):
courage to even start doing this.
It is really hard because itdoes push against family of
origin rules potentially, rulesthat you grew up with in the
faith that you took as absolutegospel.
That has nothing to do with thegospel potentially, and so it
is a really hard, hard spacesometimes, and I want to
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acknowledge that Anytime that wewrestle through letting go of
something, even in our faithwalk, even when it is right and
good and beautiful, it feelsawful.
There is grief.
You'll be grief of things thatyou have to reckon with, and
that is okay.
It's still my contention thatall trauma work is grief work
(23:09):
because there is so much togrieve.
But we also have a God thatunderstands and has given us
lament.
So even in all of that, it isworth doing.
I just want to encourage you.
You do not have to lose yourfaith, to lose the fear.
I'm going to leave you as wewrap up today's episode with a
(23:30):
few questions for reflection,and I am going to put this in a
downloadable guide that you canget.
It will be in the show notes sothat you can really sit with
this and wrestle with it foryourself.
So the first question is whatbeliefs about God or faith were
used to control or silence you?
God or faith were used tocontrol or silence you.
(23:50):
How was scripture weaponizedfor you?
And that's just a great placeto start, because sometimes we
got to look at that.
The second question is whatparts of your faith bring you
peace today?
I will tell you that knowingthat I have a suffering Savior
is really helpful for me,because I know that he gets it
On my hardest, darkest days.
(24:11):
I know he gets it, but what isit for you?
What parts of your faith todaybring you peace?
The next question is what do youwant to rebuild and what can
you let go of?
We are not completely walkingaway from faith here.
We're disentangling right.
We are taking this and goingokay, what needs to stay and
(24:34):
what needs to go.
It's sort of like declutteringa house right, we have a lot of
great things in there and it'slike, oh, this is great, this is
great, whatever you know.
But it's like do I really need14 of these?
Does this thing even work?
Right, have you ever pulled outan electronic and plugged it in
and been like, why do I stillhave this?
It's kind of like that what dowe need to disentangle?
(24:54):
What do we need to take out?
What needs to go?
And then here is the finalquestion, and this one takes
some time sometimes for folks,and again, there is nothing
wrong with wrestling taking alittle bit of time.
We put timelines on stuff.
God does not put timelines onstuff like we do at all.
But where is God actually inyour story?
(25:17):
Where is he actually in yourstory?
And you might have to take abit of time and look.
But look for him because he'sthere and he shows up and there
are questions about why did Godallow this, and I totally get
that.
I'm going to link to a podcastepisode from Safe to Hope and it
is season six, episode two.
(25:38):
Jesus is my captain.
I will link that in the shownotes and in this question guide
as well, and I think that itdoes an excellent job of saying
where is God and why didn't hestop it?
I think it just it's one of myfavorite episodes for that
particular topic and so I willlink to that as well.
I know that shifting theologyand shifting what we believe can
(26:02):
be unbelievably difficult andscary, especially if you've been
told to question.
It all means that you areapostate, that you are wicked,
that you are not really saved,and I just want to tell you that
isn't true.
First of all, there's lots ofquestioning in the Bible and
secondly, I want to honor that.
Your body might be reallyreactive listening to just the
(26:24):
thought of it and I want toencourage you that God loves you
.
He is not afraid of yourquestions at all and he wants
you to know him, to really knowhim.
He doesn't want you to knowjust about him.
Remember, our faith is all aboutrelationship and when it has
been harmed in relationship wehave to reevaluate it, and that
(26:45):
is okay, and he understands itsays that a bruised reed he will
not break, he knows.
So I leave you with thatencouragement.
I'm really glad that you joinedme this week on hey tabby and I
will see you next time.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
(27:07):
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash heytabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
What if what you were taught about God isn't
(00:03):
what God actually wanted you tobelieve?
What if it isn't accurate?
Well, if your faith story hasbecome tangled with fear, shame
or silence, this episode is foryou.
Welcome to hey Tabby, thepodcast where we talk about the
hard things out loud, with ouractual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
(00:23):
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
(00:44):
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
Welcome to this week's hey Tabby.
I'm really excited that you'rehere with me.
We are going to talk a littlebit today about what I am
calling Holy Shift, and that iswhen we start to take a look at
(01:05):
our theology and what we'vealways been told and say is that
true, is that accurate, what isthe real truth here and where
are we at?
And so we're going to talk alittle bit about that today and
walk through some differentthings that are just worth
thinking about.
We're going to start off withwhat happens when faith gets
twisted by abuse or coercivecontrol.
(01:28):
Spiritual abuse and we'vetalked about this a number of
times on this program can reallydo a number on what you believe
about God, what you believeabout yourself.
Just as a reminder, mydefinition of spiritual abuse
and I have this in my book Bodyand Soul, healed and Whole as
well is weaponizing someone'sgood and right devotion to God
(01:50):
against them.
So it is taking their truedesire to follow the Lord and
weaponizing it as means ofcontrol and saying well, this is
what it looks like to followGod and essentially what it does
is.
It takes the concept ofsubmitting to teaching doctrine,
(02:11):
leaders, spouses, and twists itinto something that God never
says that it is and that can getreally tricky, because if you
really want to follow the Lordand you've been taught I have to
listen to my leaders, I have tosubmit here, don't speak
against the Lord's anointed, andthings like that that so many
of us have heard then it canactually take our voice from us
(02:35):
and it creates this picture andpainting of God that is anything
but actual God and it doesn'tlook a thing like how he
presents himself in the totalityof scripture.
We also find that with a highcontrol space or coercive
control and abuse in spiritualrealms, forgiveness ends up
(02:55):
being weaponized as a way todismiss us.
So if someone harms you, let'ssay it is a pastor, let's say it
is an abusive or coercivelycontrolling spouse, and you're
told well, you have to forgive.
God says forgive 70 times 7.
And forgiveness in that momentis equated with total
reconciliation and not actuallysolving the problem.
(03:16):
Now, I know that can be atricky space because we are
called to forgive.
There's a lot around that, butforgiveness does not necessarily
mean reconciliation.
If someone is an axe murderer,let's say, and they have hacked
up half the church, we'll justuse that as a ridiculous example
(03:37):
here, right, then you would say, yes, I can forgive this person
for the actions that they took,but I'm not going to hang out
with them because they aredangerous.
And I think that when wemisstate and misapply what
forgiveness actually is, we'reasking people go hang out with
an ex-murderer that hasn'trepented and changed at all.
You just have to forgive andforget because they said pretty
(03:58):
words.
And we know that that's notaccurate, but if you are trying
really hard to be a faithfulbeliever, it can get really
tricky if you're told well, thisis what it looks like and
you've never had the opportunityto think about it differently.
Also, we find in these spacesthat suffering is glorified, and
I have had so many survivorssay to me I was told to suffer
(04:22):
like Jesus that even in thishorrible situation and they were
able to say that my wickedspouse was in fact horrible I
just had to suck it up andsuffer for Christ because I was
in Christ's sufferings.
And again, that's anothermisstatement of what the Bible
says.
Yes, we are going to suffer inthis world.
It is very clear.
Jesus says it a number of times.
It is throughout the NewTestament.
(04:43):
Things are going to be hard.
However, when you can stopoppression, you should, and
we're called to that.
We're supposed to beanti-oppression as believers,
because God is so.
When we distort what sufferingactually is and what it really
looks like to suffer for thecause of Christ, then we are
also putting people into a cage.
(05:04):
And I often think about thequote from when Home Hurts,
which is by Jeremy Pierre andGreg Wilson, that abuse is a
dangerous reversal of love.
And the thing is, man, it iscouched in words of love.
I am just trying to help you begodly, I am just trying to help
you walk on the path to Jesus,and that is a distortion.
(05:27):
This is really truly what itmeans, in my opinion, to take
the name of the Lord in vain, touse it to create something that
he does not condone or to pushsomething that he does not
condone.
That is absolutely taking thename of the Lord in vain.
It's really, really importantthat when we look at trauma
(05:50):
responses and our understandingof things that we aren't saying,
hey, this is a lack of faith.
We understand things rightly asa trauma response, and we
understand that it is reallydifficult to disentangle a lot
of these things.
So I'm going to use a word herethat a lot of folks really
struggle with in the church, andthat is the word deconstruction
(06:10):
, and I want to define it well.
So some of you just heard thatand I think you thought, oh, my
goodness, I think she prettymuch just used a curse word,
because it's become equated withthat and I've said this before
as well that there are plenty ofpeople who misuse this, plenty
(06:31):
of people who utilize this todenigrate our faith and all
kinds of things.
Just like everything, there arepeople in good spaces and
people in harmful spaces, but Iwant to talk about what it
really is, versus just thebuzzword that it's pretty much
become.
So, first of all,deconstruction isn't the end of
faith.
Honestly, there are a lot ofpeople who say, hey, this was
actually the beginning ofsomething very authentic for me,
that was outside of the highcontrol and abuse that I walked
(06:55):
in.
I'm going to use another wordfor it.
I'm going to use two actuallythroughout this podcast that I
prefer to deconstruction.
One is disentangling.
I'm not completely dismantlingmy faith at all.
When I am looking at things,I'm disentangling it.
I'm disentangling it fromthings that were not of God,
things that are not in the Bibleand things that it got stuck to
(07:20):
that it should never have beenstuck to.
So, like I was talking aboutforgiveness.
Well, if I was talking aboutforgiveness, well, if I always
believed that forgiveness wasnow I have to forget and just
suffer, then I'm going todisentangle from that harmful
teaching and press intosomething more accurate.
So I'm going to pull thosethreads out that don't need to
be there and weave somethingdifferent.
(07:42):
The other word that I like touse for this is sanctification,
and we are being changed fromglory to glory to be like Jesus,
something that I might havebelieved been taught.
I need to reevaluate that.
We're always supposed tocontinually go through the
scriptures and learn and ask theLord to bear weight on our
(08:02):
heart from the gospel and fromhis word and from the spirit,
and there are going to be thingsthat I read when I had a
different understanding ofsomething and go wait, is that
really what this says?
And maybe I'm going to go do aword study.
Maybe I'm going to go dosomething that helps me
understand a little bit more ofthe original context.
And if you have not learned howto study the Bible, I
(08:25):
definitely encourage you go backto the episode on biblical
literacy.
There are some great resourcesin how to study the Bible well
and how to learn how tounderstand it for yourself.
And a lot of times we want totake the word of our pastors and
elders and leaders and spousesvery seriously.
Sometimes they've gone toseminary and they have a lot of
(08:46):
knowledge.
But honestly, wisdom is morethan just knowing stuff.
Wisdom is knowing what to dowith the stuff that you know,
one of my favorite memes issomething along the lines of
knowledge is knowing that atomato is a fruit, and wisdom is
knowing you shouldn't put it ina fruit salad.
And sometimes I think we havefolks who, to achieve their own
(09:07):
ends or because they just don'tknow, think that we're going to
shove that tomato in a fruitsalad, and so they're using
knowledge that it's a fruit andabsolutely not using wisdom that
you shouldn't put it in withyour strawberries.
We want to be able to workthrough our sanctification, and
that does mean challengingthings that we have believed
maybe forever, especially if yougrew up in the church, and
(09:30):
that's not a bad thing.
When we wrestle and we questionand we ask, we are more able to
have a fuller understanding ofour own faith, and that's really
good.
That's important.
I want to just normalize thatthis actually has been something
that has been going on sincethe beginning of time, where we
have had to work out our faithand we have had to try to
(09:51):
understand different thingsabout God.
And as we age and we get wisdomof life, I also think that
presses us in to differentplaces as well.
You know what I understood atthe age of 20 and what I
understand now, which is likenearly three decades later, is
still much different.
I have life experiences.
I have experiences with peopleand I have more experiences with
(10:14):
God, and that is superimportant.
Also, it helps us disentanglefrom the systems that are not
really following the Lord.
I've said this before manytimes it is a quote from Dr
Diane Langberg that Jesus didnot come to die for systems.
He came to die for the peoplein the systems, and that is so
(10:35):
accurate.
So sometimes we have to look atthe system that we are walking
in and go is this really whatthe Lord has?
Now?
Look, no church system is goingto be perfect.
You want them to be safe enough, right, they're still run by
people.
Things happen.
But when you have humility andleadership, then you can really
ask some harder questions abouthey, why do we do this this way?
(10:58):
Hey, why is this what we'rebeing taught?
And those are good things.
And if you can't do that, thenI would just encourage you to
ask questions anyway of the Lord.
Just because your pastor orelder or leader doesn't want to
answer those questions or gothere with you doesn't mean you
shouldn't.
Our faith is our own and thatis really important.
I also want to speak to folkswho are in more of a high
(11:19):
control space, and that isreally important.
I also want to speak to folkswho are in more of a high
control space, and that isquestioning, is not backsliding.
It is okay to question, and Ireally think that wrestling with
our faith is so important, andGod is not angry.
I mean, look at Job.
God was not mad at Job forasking lots of questions.
(11:40):
Job was like what is happeninghere?
David asked questions of theLord.
There are a lot of people in theBible who are like I don't get
it.
Habakkuk, as he's staring atthe wall, how long, oh Lord, how
long are you going to just letthis happen?
Eek, I don't love this.
These are all really importantquestions and God doesn't vilify
any of them.
He's not mad about any of itand he's not scared of our
(12:00):
questions.
He knows man, he knows, heknows what's already in our
heart, and so if we say, lord, Iwant to understand this better,
he's going to come and show upand help us Now.
Probably not in our timeline.
I'll be honest.
God does not operate in thetimeline I want him to sometimes
, but he's always obviouslyknowing what's going on.
He knows far more abouteverything than I do, but it can
(12:23):
be hard because I like, oh, Iwant answers and maybe I don't
get them right away, but he'snot scared of you asking those
questions at all.
A healthy faith for a survivorof abuse is to eventually
understand that God is safe andnot controlling.
Especially when scripture hasbeen weaponized, we can think
man, god's a narcissist, whatthe heck?
Y'all already know how I feelabout the term narcissist and I
(12:46):
am not a fan, but I know that itcan feel like well, is he just
going to be like these abusersor is he like the abusive
individuals have cast him towardme?
And the answer is no.
I think about folks who've saidto me but in the garden, he
knew it was going to happen, hedid, he gave us free choice.
But he is so tender in thatpassage and this is something
(13:08):
that if you have not heard theepisode with Chuck DeGroote, go
back and listen to it.
We talk about the where are youquestion and the posture of
tenderness that God has.
And if you're like well, how doyou know?
You couldn't hear his tone?
Facts, that's right.
I was not there in the garden.
I am definitely not that old.
What I do know is that he wentand made clothes for them.
(13:29):
He said, yes, there's going tobe a consequence to this, but I
already have your rescue plan.
I'm sure that his heart wasbroken.
If you are a parent, you knowhow it feels when your kids
don't do the good things thatyou have for them, when you're
like, ah, I set this up for youand you went and did something
else instead.
Man, we know, we know how ithurts.
As a parent, I think God'sheart was more broken than angry
(13:54):
and we see his tenderness inthe making of the clothes.
We see his tenderness in sayingthis is how it's going to be,
but I've already got a rescueplan for you, and that is truly
tender.
So he is not a dictator, he isnot a controller.
He is not the angry buzzkill inthe sky.
He's a very tender God with awhole lot of patience.
Jesus also never sided withabusers.
(14:16):
In fact, the harshest words hehad were for wicked church
leadership, the Pharisees andSadducees.
If you go through and read thegospels and really look at who
he said the hard things to, itwasn't the broken and hurting.
Those are the folks that, yes,he said go and sin no more, but
he also healed them, sat withthem, touched them, allowed
(14:37):
himself to be touched by them.
There's such an incrediblegentle and tender space there
for people who are broken, andit was the leaders who thought
they had it all together thatJesus said hey, you are not as
together as you think and youneed to humble yourself.
When you interpret scripturecorrectly, even if it is bearing
weight on something that needsto change, you find freedom, not
(15:00):
condemnation.
Anytime I've ever beenconvicted by something I read,
I'm like, oh ouch, jesus man, wegot to work that out.
It is sad, I'm grieved by mybrokenness, I'm grieved by my
missteps, but I'm not shamed.
And this is hard for a survivorbecause, honestly, sometimes
breathing makes you feel shame,right, like it's just a whole
(15:23):
thing, and I totally understandthat and that is part of our own
work of healing is not likejust doing the backstroke in the
bubble of shame most of thetime because we've been so
conditioned to think everythingis my fault forever.
But when we really interpret itrightly, when we really are
secure in our identity in Christand we're looking at scripture,
(15:43):
it doesn't bring condemnation.
Romans 8, 1 says that there istherefore now no condemnation
for those who are in ChristJesus and called according to
his purpose so important andthat's right.
After Paul is like I cannotseem to get it right.
Go read Romans 7 and 8.
They are absolutely fascinating.
I particularly like the NewLiving Translation for anything
(16:07):
in Romans because Paul is theking of a run-on sentence and it
can get a little lengthy.
But I think the New LivingTranslation, or the NLT, does a
really good job of that.
And so you can look at Paul'swrestle and him go ah, but
thankfully there's nocondemnation because the Lord
has saved him.
He's sealed by the blood heknows.
Reading through scripture with atrauma-informed lens is so
(16:31):
life-giving when you look atwhat is the character of God and
, like it says in James and Iknow I quote this often, but I
love it so much God is not madwhen you ask him for wisdom.
He wants us to.
There's a ton of Proverbs aboutask for wisdom and seek wisdom
and God wants us to do that.
So as we understand our owntrauma, understand what we need
(16:53):
to disentangle from a bit,understand a little bit more
about our own sanctification,then we go who is God really?
And God wants us to know him.
He says that from Genesis toRevelation.
He wants to be known and hemakes himself available to us.
I know that in my own story,disentangling, deconstructing
(17:17):
sanctification whatever youchoose to call it has been at
times really scary, because I amletting go of, in those moments
, things that I was taught, anda lot of times they were tied to
salvation.
And when I look at it now witha greater understanding and
greater depth of Bible study, Ican go that is not what they
(17:40):
call a salvific issue.
That means it doesn't relate toyour salvation.
Right, so don't speak againstthe Lord's anointed something so
often misstated to keep youfrom questioning a wicked leader
.
I look at that and I go oh yeah, but when I was younger, that
was couched with and you'regoing straight to Hades if you
(18:02):
do that.
Right, because there was alwaysa consequence, always some sort
of totalitarian control withthat.
So I've had to go.
Okay, it feels to my body like Iam going to get in trouble, but
here is what I know about Jesus, even if I don't feel safe yet,
knowing this, and I have towork those things out.
(18:25):
Right, I really think this insome ways gets to the essence of
working out our salvation withfear and trembling because we
are potentially pushing againstfamily of origin rules, pushing
against things that we've beentaught in the church, that are
inaccurate and yet all tied towhether or not we are worthy of
heaven, and it is scary.
(18:46):
It is scary when you say Idon't think this is right, I
don't think this is accurateanymore, and you start to let it
go.
It also is really toughsometimes for relationships,
because if you have friends whoare still in that space or
family who is still in thatspace of saying no, no, no, this
high control, twisted versionof God is what's accurate, then
(19:09):
it is going to affectrelationships.
I'm seeing more and more inthis day and age that if you
don't have tacit agreement withsomething, that people will just
get rid of you as arelationship, and I am not a fan
of that.
I do think that, especially withthings that are not salvific
issues, things that do notpertain to actual salvation and
there is a lot that is in thatgray area in the Bible that is,
(19:34):
you know, we can come todifferent spaces that those are
things I think we should holdgently with each other.
I would hope that the peoplethat know me, that are maybe in
a different place from where Iam currently, would really lean
in and say I love you, I knowthat you love Jesus, and so I'm
going to hold this tension withyou instead of push against you.
(19:55):
And I am all for good debate, Iam all for let's go look at
this together, let's wrestlethrough it together.
But it's super important tolook at the other person not as
an infidel or backslidden orwhatever else you want to call
an individual and say I love you, I know you love the Lord.
(20:17):
I'm going to wrestle with you.
We can have intense debates, wecan wrestle through things
together, but at the end of theday, you are still my brother or
sister in Christ and we'regoing to stand together in that.
And I think that overcomes theenemy's attempts at division in
these spaces.
And you don't have to make afriend agree with you if you're
in a different place, but youcan love them well and say I
(20:40):
don't understand this and if youfeel like, oh my gosh, they're
just like sliding right into aterrible place, like maybe pray
for them, maybe look at it fromtheir perspective, maybe ask
more questions, which, again, Ithink is a bit of a lost art
these days and that's veryunfortunate.
If this is really tough for you, I really would encourage you
(21:00):
to find a therapist that canhelp you wrestle with it.
And again, this is where Iwould say a faith-based
therapist who is not a legalistindividual or a.
Let me tell you what youshouldn't believe, because there
are some therapists out therethat are just not doing very
good, and biblical counselors aswell.
There's some really excellentones that are biblical
counselors and therapists andsome really terrible ones.
(21:22):
So interview well, but reallywrestle through it, maybe in
that space, or find a safepastor who's willing to do the
wrestle with you and not tellyou what to do.
And there are those people inthe world as well.
And I know if you have beenhurt in your faith and you are
disentangling and workingthrough your sanctification, it
can feel like is there anybodysafe and good?
(21:44):
And I assure you that there are.
It does take work to find them,it does take lots of questions,
it can be a little bit of amessy process and I hate that.
I truly hate that.
But it's really important tofind community support that is
going to wrestle with you butnot tell you what to believe.
At the end of the day, yourfaith is yours and yours alone,
(22:05):
between you and God.
Because at the end of the day,the end of all the days, we're
going to stand before Godwithout anybody around us.
It's going to be us and him.
I want to say I have wrestledhonestly and I have sought Jesus
and trust him.
For the rest, if he's God, hecan absolutely be trusted.
For the rest, I know that ittakes an enormous amount of
(22:27):
courage to even start doing this.
It is really hard because itdoes push against family of
origin rules potentially, rulesthat you grew up with in the
faith that you took as absolutegospel.
That has nothing to do with thegospel potentially, and so it
is a really hard, hard spacesometimes, and I want to
(22:49):
acknowledge that Anytime that wewrestle through letting go of
something, even in our faithwalk, even when it is right and
good and beautiful, it feelsawful.
There is grief.
You'll be grief of things thatyou have to reckon with, and
that is okay.
It's still my contention thatall trauma work is grief work
(23:09):
because there is so much togrieve.
But we also have a God thatunderstands and has given us
lament.
So even in all of that, it isworth doing.
I just want to encourage you.
You do not have to lose yourfaith, to lose the fear.
I'm going to leave you as wewrap up today's episode with a
(23:30):
few questions for reflection,and I am going to put this in a
downloadable guide that you canget.
It will be in the show notes sothat you can really sit with
this and wrestle with it foryourself.
So the first question is whatbeliefs about God or faith were
used to control or silence you?
God or faith were used tocontrol or silence you.
(23:50):
How was scripture weaponizedfor you?
And that's just a great placeto start, because sometimes we
got to look at that.
The second question is whatparts of your faith bring you
peace today?
I will tell you that knowingthat I have a suffering Savior
is really helpful for me,because I know that he gets it
On my hardest, darkest days.
(24:11):
I know he gets it, but what isit for you?
What parts of your faith todaybring you peace?
The next question is what do youwant to rebuild and what can
you let go of?
We are not completely walkingaway from faith here.
We're disentangling right.
We are taking this and goingokay, what needs to stay and
(24:34):
what needs to go.
It's sort of like declutteringa house right, we have a lot of
great things in there and it'slike, oh, this is great, this is
great, whatever you know.
But it's like do I really need14 of these?
Does this thing even work?
Right, have you ever pulled outan electronic and plugged it in
and been like, why do I stillhave this?
It's kind of like that what dowe need to disentangle?
(24:54):
What do we need to take out?
What needs to go?
And then here is the finalquestion, and this one takes
some time sometimes for folks,and again, there is nothing
wrong with wrestling taking alittle bit of time.
We put timelines on stuff.
God does not put timelines onstuff like we do at all.
But where is God actually inyour story?
(25:17):
Where is he actually in yourstory?
And you might have to take abit of time and look.
But look for him because he'sthere and he shows up and there
are questions about why did Godallow this, and I totally get
that.
I'm going to link to a podcastepisode from Safe to Hope and it
is season six, episode two.
(25:38):
Jesus is my captain.
I will link that in the shownotes and in this question guide
as well, and I think that itdoes an excellent job of saying
where is God and why didn't hestop it?
I think it just it's one of myfavorite episodes for that
particular topic and so I willlink to that as well.
I know that shifting theologyand shifting what we believe can
(26:02):
be unbelievably difficult andscary, especially if you've been
told to question.
It all means that you areapostate, that you are wicked,
that you are not really saved,and I just want to tell you that
isn't true.
First of all, there's lots ofquestioning in the Bible and
secondly, I want to honor that.
Your body might be reallyreactive listening to just the
(26:24):
thought of it and I want toencourage you that God loves you
.
He is not afraid of yourquestions at all and he wants
you to know him, to really knowhim.
He doesn't want you to knowjust about him.
Remember, our faith is all aboutrelationship and when it has
been harmed in relationship wehave to reevaluate it, and that
(26:45):
is okay, and he understands itsays that a bruised reed he will
not break, he knows.
So I leave you with thatencouragement.
I'm really glad that you joinedme this week on hey tabby and I
will see you next time.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
(27:07):
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash heytabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
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New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!