July 21, 2025 • 37 mins
What does it really mean to be a "doer of the Word" like it says in the book of James?
In this eye-opening episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook sits down with Neil Schori, pastor, father, and Director of Church Partnerships at Called to Peace Ministries, to tackle how being doers of the Word should make churches look. Together, they unpack James 1:22-27 and challenge what it really means to “be doers of the word.” Spoiler: it’s not about ignoring abuse.
You’ll hear real talk on:
- How churches unintentionally side with abusers
- Why emotional maturity (not just theology) is essential in marriage
- What “widows and orphans” actually means in a trauma-informed context
- The epidemic of autoimmune disease and physical health decline in abuse survivors
- How leaders can stop protecting the institution and start protecting people
This is not your average talk about a scirpture. It’s a call for churches to embody the heart of Christ, not just quote His words. If you're a pastor, elder, biblical counselor, or therapist, this episode is your mirror moment. Don't walk away unchanged.
🔗 Want to help your church do better? Learn more about Called to Peace Ministries and their Church Partnership Program: www.calledtopeace.org
Book mentioned: 37 WAYS TO BE TAKEN CAPTIVE: Warning Signs and Prevention for Destructive Relationships by Syndey Millage - https://a.co/d/9GDLfK6
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com
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🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud, withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof hey Tabby.
I am so stoked.
(00:42):
First of all, I'm interviewingone of my favorite people, which
is just amazing, and I knew hewas going to be one of my
favorite people the very firsttime I ever talked to him.
And the other person on thecall was like why am I here?
Because this person I had somuch to talk about.
So I am going to introduce toyou my friend, neil Shorey.
He is a pastor, husband and dadof three daughters.
(01:04):
He serves as the director ofchurch partnerships for Call to
Peace Ministries, where he leadsan amazing team that equips
churches to respond to abuse notwith silence but with courage
and compassion.
And I do know some of thechurch partnership folks.
They are amazing.
Neil's journey into advocacybegan when a pastoral
conversation helped uncover oneof the nation's most chilling
(01:26):
domestic abuse cases.
Ever since, he's been on amission to help churches become
the safest place on earth forthe vulnerable.
He's passionate about healthytheology, practical action and
helping leaders move fromwell-meaning to well-trained.
Neil, I'm so glad that you'rehere.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Thank you so much for having me.
I've been so excited for thisconversation.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
We're going to have a really good time.
So buckle up everyone.
This will be fun.
We're going to talk about apassage in James, and I was
sitting in church one Sundaywhen I was listening to this be
preached, and in the middle ofthe sermon I texted Neil and
said, hey, I think we shouldtalk about this.
And Neil said, yes, we should.
And so here we are.
(02:10):
So I'm going to start us off byreading this section of
scripture, and I know for somepeople that scripture is tricky.
There will be timestamps in thedescription, so if you need to
move past it and hear oursummary and discussion on it,
you can do that, because I knowthat for some survivors of abuse
, this can be really hard.
But, like you guys know wholisten to this podcast, biblical
(02:31):
literacy is really important tome, and so I definitely want to
dive into this together.
So we're going to be in James.
We're going to start in chapterone, verse 22, and we're going
to end at verse 27.
So the end of the chapter andI'm reading this from the
Christian Standard Bible and Iwant to note the very first
sentence for some that arelistening is going to be a
(02:52):
trigger.
I do just want to remind folksto take care of you you're the
only you that you have.
But be doers of the word and nothearers only deceiving
yourselves.
Because if anyone is a hearerof the word and not a doer, he
is like someone looking at hisown face in a mirror, for he
looks at himself, goes away andimmediately forgets what kind of
(03:13):
person he was.
But the one who looks intentlyinto the perfect law of freedom
and perseveres in it and is nota forgetful hearer but a doer
who works, this person will beblessed in what he does.
If anyone thinks he isreligious without controlling
his tongue, his religion isuseless and he deceives himself.
(03:33):
Pure and undefiled religionbefore God the Father is this to
look after orphans and widowsin their distress and to keep
oneself unstained from the worldin their distress and to keep
oneself unstained from the world.
So that's a whole bunch ofscripture and I know some of its
parts has been proof texted andweaponized against victims,
especially to stay indestructive marriages and not to
(03:56):
seek safety.
But I want to talk about itfrom the pastor side.
How do we think, as anabuse-informed group that we are
, how do we help pastors seethis not just as go follow a
bunch of rules.
And how are they doers of theword?
(04:17):
Maybe a little differently thanthey think.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah Well, this passage has always meant a lot
to me, because in one of thefirst churches that I was ever
connected with, I had the chanceto start a ministry that was
specific to caring for orphansand widows.
That was the gist of theministry, and really what I
think it's important for pastorsto do is look at this, and this
(04:40):
is not about us puttingsomething upon someone else, but
it's really an invitation to usto step into the kind of
religion, the kind of care, thekind of congregation that God
wants us to be.
And what is that?
It's the very last verse.
Religion that God accepts ispure and faultless.
Is this, in other words, like,if you want to know what your
(05:00):
church should look like, itshould look like this To look
after orphans and widows intheir distress.
Now, it'd be really easy to justfocus on those two and say,
okay, well, we don't have to doanything else for anyone else,
and of course, that would bemissing the point in a really
grandiose way.
But it's just this idea thatthe power and the strength that
(05:21):
we have is supposed to be usedto come alongside people and
underneath them, to shore themup.
It's never supposed to be usedto hold them down.
So, rather than saying thatthis is for other people to do,
this is a list of do's anddon'ts for other people.
No, this is an invitation toleaders to say what do we want
our churches to look like?
What do we want our ethic to becharacterized by?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
absolutely, and you know, I think it is so easy to
use this as a spiritual bypassif you're not paying attention.
So you have a sister that comesto you and says these things
are happening in my marriage.
I don't even know what to callthem, because that's usually how
it happens when people come tosee me.
(06:04):
They're just anxious and theywant to be a better wife and
then she starts telling herstory.
And if you know what you'relistening to, you hear the
elements of coercive control.
Well it's easy as a pastor tosay, well, go have more sex.
Or God says submit be a doer ofthe word, not a hearer.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
only what does that do to the woman, then that has
come.
Oh, it's super destructive Ifwe just take everything at face
value and we just we don'trecognize that the issue that
comes to us is simply thepresenting issue.
If we're not curious aboutwhat's actually going on and we
don't ask good questions and wedon't know the very complex
(06:45):
dynamics of course of control,we're not curious about what's
actually going on, we don't askgood questions and we don't know
the very complex dynamics ofcourse of control, we're not
going to know to look for thosethings.
And that's why it's soimportant for churches to be
trained on this to at leastevery church in the nation
should have a DV 101.
This is a one in three issuejust for women in your
congregation.
So this is a significant issue.
One in seven men, one in threewomen.
This is a significant issue.
One in seven men, one in threewomen.
(07:06):
This is a problem.
We should talk about it.
But if you don't know thesedynamics, then you don't know
what to look for.
So then you're just going totry to be the Bible answer guy,
you know, and it's like no,that's not, that's not the heart
of the Lord.
The Lord always invites us tolook at what's actually going on
here.
What is this person actuallysaying, rather than just a
presenting issue?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, and I think you know, when we think of being
doers of the word, I want to saybe doers of the whole word.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
you know not just, and that is a whole word
modification, yeah, not justbehavioral modification, right
Like right.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Okay, I can go do a thing and this is what we see.
I mean, you know, I work withperpetrators periodically,
co-facilitated perpetratorintervention groups, and this is
often where we see folks makethat checkbox move.
Well, I'm doing the thing.
The problem is your heart isdifferent.
You're trying to get back ingood graces, right, you're
(08:19):
trying to get back in goodgraces.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
You're trying to utilize manipulative kindness to
weave your web again and suckyour victim back in, and your
heart really isn't different.
So you're not actually a dothink of the name of it, but it
was with Jennifer Aniston andVince Vaughn years ago and they
had this marital squabble aftera party and she was trying to
get him to do the dishes andfinally he caught on that, oh,
I'm supposed to do the dishes,so he goes over there.
And she was still upset aboutit and he goes.
Well, what is your problem?
And she just goes.
(08:40):
I want you to want to do thedishes.
And it was hilarious.
It was just a totally hilariousline, but I think it really
illustrates something about theheart.
She didn't want to have to keepasking him or make him finally
catch all the hints that shewanted him to participate in the
household work.
She wanted him to see the wholething and see her household
(09:06):
work.
She wanted him to like see thewhole thing and see her, and I
think that it's really reallyeasy to in churches to try to
get people to be good littleboys and girls and then have a
whole lot of things that aregoing on in the heart that are
never addressed, and God iscalling us to so much greater
than that.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Absolutely, and good scriptural understanding is
looking at scripture with what Ilike to look at as three lenses
.
I got this from jen wilkin itis for them and for them, for us
and for always, for me and fornow.
So how do we look at thisscripture in that way?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
so, so, so good, gosh , when I read this and I think
about what's god asking for metoday?
What does this look like for me?
In what ways am I personallyjust listening to the word and
then not doing the thing thatgod's asking me to do For me?
I know that he just wants me tobe the same person everywhere.
(10:08):
He doesn't want me to have achurch persona and a home
persona and then a gas stationor Starbucks persona.
He wants me to be exactly whohe has made me to be and who
he's invited me to become.
He wants me to be thateverywhere I am, so that nobody
wonders who the real me is.
They'll see who I amconsistently, and I think
(10:31):
everyone.
I think there's an invitationfor all of us when we read this,
like, what's the thing thatyou're ignoring that God's
consistently putting before you?
And my guess is it's not goingto be a list of do's and don'ts,
it's going to be more ofmatters of the heart.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, I mean.
God has so much to saythroughout scripture, from
Genesis to Revelation, about theheart and about his care and
kindness for us and to be madefrom glory to glory to be like
him as he's changing us throughsanctification.
All of those things are morethan just a single verse proof
text, and I think this is whatwe see in coercive control so
often, where half of verses getused right, so like if this is
(11:13):
being weaponized and someone isbeing told well, go be doers and
not hearers.
Only you, as wife, submit, yougo do the thing right.
And be demure and mindful andlook like the Proverbs 31 woman,
which I'm like.
you should read that againbecause she might actually be,
because she was pretty amazing,but you know, we get that piece
of it and then they're told thatthey're wicked because they
(11:35):
maybe resisted and said no.
And said I'm trying to set aboundary and this isn't OK.
And then they get called thingslike you know, having a Jezebel
spirit which is also completelyscripturally wrong.
And you know it's so importantto handle the word of God well
if you are a pastor and to bereally careful, because the book
(11:58):
of James also says I hope abunch of you don't desire to be
teachers because you are held toa higher standard, so I feel
like there's a lot of weight toreally wrestle with.
Is this something I believe andteach because it's what I've
always been told?
Or is it something I believeand teach because this is the
Holy Spirit and the word of Godbearing weight on my life and
(12:20):
changing me from glory to gloryto look more like Jesus?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Absolutely.
That's the key, you know.
I think it's.
We can say, oh, we're trying tobe biblically based, and my
question is so what does thatactually mean?
And what I want to hear is thatchurches are trying to look
like Jesus and how they embodyscripture and embody love, right
.
So it's like when I look atJesus, when I can get awfully
(12:45):
confused when I take, when Icherry pick verses or even some
books of the Bible where I readit and I'm like, well, that's
that's, that's something, that'sa harsh one, that's a confusing
word, boy, that that makes mefeel confused about God.
The thing that I always do issay, okay, if I'm confused about
(13:06):
what the Bible's saying aboutGod, to just look at Jesus,
because Jesus, scripture says,is the image of the invisible
God, okay.
So if I'm ever confused aboutGod, all I have to do is go back
to Jesus.
That's all I have to do.
He will show me.
He's going to bring light tothe passages that are confusing.
(13:26):
So when I'm confused aboutGod's character, when I'm
confused about how he works inthe world, how he treats people,
I'm always going to look atJesus, because that's who we
look at.
So he gave everything for usand because of that I can trust
God of that, I can trust GodAbsolutely.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I do think I'm going to say this because this is
something that I've heard manypastors say when I have these
kinds of discussions, and I'mcertain you've heard something
similar is but what about sin?
Are we just going to let peoplesin Neal, and we're not going
to call out her sin?
Maybe she's harsh and isn'teveryone a sinner?
Are you expecting perfection?
I mean, gosh man, are you softon sin?
(14:12):
How would you respond to that?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I mean, I've certainly heard people say
exactly that.
It's like, well, I'm sure she'snot perfect, and it's like,
well, first of all, if youreally want to talk about her.
Yeah, no one's perfect.
And it's like, well, first ofall if you really want to talk
about her.
Yeah, no one's perfect.
And that's also not the point.
It's the art of deflection.
You know, let's talk aboutwhat's really going on here, and
when it comes to abusivebehavior, all about control.
It's all about one person withthe power, with the influence,
(14:39):
with the authority, who looks atthe other person as an object
rather than someone created inthe image of God.
Does that mean are we at allsaying that that person is sin
free?
Well, of course not.
That's also not the issue.
And there's a very, very bigdifference between being a
sinner, which, according toscripture, all of us that's all
of us.
But there's a big differencebetween someone who misses the
(15:02):
mark that God has set andsomeone who's perpetrating sin
upon another.
It's very intentional, it'svery purposeful, it's
destructive.
Those are very, very differentthings, and when we mix those
things up, we end up having awhole lot of victims that have
now experienced a secondaryvictimization.
So we have this wake of victimsin the path of the church, and
(15:25):
that should never, ever, ever be.
The church should be the safestplace on earth for victims,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I think, in an effort to push back against some
things from just modern societythat truly aren't good, that
there is a need for a way to Apendulum swing in the other
direction that goes a bit, and arigidity that ultimately then
(15:55):
idolizes the institution ofmarriage instead of worshiping
the living God 100% true and,you know, anytime we look at
institutions and we want to holdthose up, it's like you can
start doing that with a reallygood heart, but it can get
awfully twisted and, I think,really miss the meaning that God
has for it.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
You know, it's sort of like the Sabbath, right?
So Jesus was critiqued by thePharisees when his followers
were picking grain on theSabbath to eat.
And the Pharisees are like ohJesus, I think you need to have
a talk with those guys, becausethey're obviously not.
I think you need to have a talkwith those guys because they're
obviously not.
They haven't caught on to thefact that it's the Sabbath.
(16:36):
And it's like, and Jesus looksat him and goes no, no, no, no,
no, no, no.
Sabbath is for man, not man forthe Sabbath.
And I think in the same way, inchurches we can look at the
institution of marriage as theend goal.
And it's not, because if itwere, then why would some people
never get married?
Right, it's not the end goal.
The end goal is to be conformedto the image of Jesus.
(16:58):
And the end goal of marriage,like marriage, isn't the
ultimate goal.
The ultimate goal is to havepeople in union together.
And when you have abuse, that'sindicated you have one person
that's trying to be in unionwith another, but unfortunately
that person's not leaning intothe Lord and leaning into what
it looks like to put theirspouse first.
(17:20):
What they're doing isattempting to destroy the other
person who's tried to be marriedto them, and that's not good
and not healthy, and they'vealready broken that union.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Right, they're consuming them.
Ultimately, it is a consumptivemindset and it is one where the
victim is seen as property.
I refer to it as a couch thatcan make sandwiches and stuff.
You know, sometimes in thebedroom.
They treat their spouse like ablow up doll and it's not an
image bearer idea, right.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
No.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
They're not looking at someone as an image bearer of
a living God.
They're looking at them assomething to be consumed for
their pleasure, which is notscriptural.
And I think it's hard forpastors at times to really
reconcile that because we havelanguage intimacy so poorly In
fact I'm not entirely sure welanguage it at all in the church
(18:09):
at this point.
We talk about intercourse butwe don't talk about true
intimacy.
And you know, as you weretalking, I was thinking about
something that Sheila Gregoiresaid to me when I interviewed
her, and she talks aboutemotional maturity.
And wouldn't it be better if,instead of focusing on marriage,
we focused on the emotionalmaturity of the parties involved
(18:29):
?
So then, when they got married,they got married healthy, and
my heart goes, that'sdiscipleship.
What?
If we actually really discipledpeople to look like Jesus, to
follow hard after Jesus.
What might marriage?
I mean the church as a whole.
What might it look like?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Oh, it'd be incredibly different.
What if we built into ourpremarital counseling, which so
many churches do, and I thinkthat's great, that's a great
start?
What if we built in questionsthat would look for elements of
emotional maturity?
And also what if we regularlygave surveys and had good
conversations around abusivedynamics?
What if we had individualconversations with a woman to
(19:09):
say, hey, let me describe somebehaviors that you're really,
really going to want to stayaway from.
Have you experienced any ofthese with your fiance?
Because, as we know, in theabuse realm, in the abuse field,
a lot of times when people arebeing abused, they don't even
say they're being abused.
They know they're uncomfortable, they know they have some
anxiety around being with thatperson, but they oftentimes
(19:32):
wonder if there's just somethingwrong with them internally,
like what's wrong with me that Ican't just feel normal in this
context.
But when we educate people injust simple conversational ways,
we could help them avoid alifetime of being tethered to
someone that's hell-bent ontheir destruction.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Absolutely, and if a church needs a little support
with that, our friend, sydneyMillage wrote this book called
37 Ways to be Taken Captive andit's such a great book for
dating to walk through.
Where are the elements ofcoercive control and what are
some things that you want to beaware of?
So if there's a pastor, elderleader, biblical counselor
listening or licensed therapistlistening because I think all
(20:13):
things are applicable for all ofus then I would commend that
book because that can help youhave some of those questions
about what the nature and tenorof the relationship is.
I also think that folks doingpremarital counseling should be
bold enough to say you shouldnot marry.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
And yes, it doesn't happen often enough.
Yeah, and I would say if you'vebeen a pastor for more than a
few years and you have not, ifyou haven't said that to someone
, you probably need to get alittle bit tougher and check in
with yourself on why you'rehaving a hard time.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Being honest, yeah, it's a tough conversation.
I mean, let's be real, right,it's tough to say.
I know that you love thisperson and I know that you've
put deposits in places.
Your parents might have putdeposits in places and that's no
laughing matter.
Wedding dresses are expensiveWeddings.
The average wedding issomething like 40 grand.
(21:04):
I was blown away by that.
So, yeah, there's a significantdollar amount, but can you
place a dollar amount on yoursoul?
If someone, ultimately, istrying to take your personhood?
I'm going to say no.
I feel like we can always earnmoney back.
We can't heal as easily as wecould if we didn't get married
(21:26):
in the first place.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Right.
I've seen a lot of people overthe years say, gosh, I just
really love to be married oneday.
It's just, I just haven't foundthe right person and I'm like,
hey, I hear you, I'm grateful tobe married.
I'm so glad I married theperson that I did.
I'm so glad I didn't marry theother people that I might have.
I'm really grateful for that,but for that.
(21:51):
But I can tell you that thepeople that I've encountered who
are the saddest and theloneliest aren't the single
people.
The people that I know that arethe saddest and most despondent
and lonely are those married tothose who are actually against
them when they call themselvesmarried.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Right, yep, married but really single on the inside.
Awesome how I've languaged it,yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's great.
That's such a good picture too.
It's yeah, it's horrible.
You know, it's like we've allexperienced being around people
and, yeah, we don't have a senseof community.
It's like you can walk on thestreets of any major city in the
U?
S.
You can walk in New York cityand it's like, if you aren't
with someone, you're justwalking.
You'll encounter 100,000 peoplethat day.
(22:31):
You know thousands of peoplethat day and you could not have
one conversation except with,maybe, the street vendor looking
for a good hot dog.
That's still.
That's, a very, very lonelyplace to be.
I think it's significantly moreso, and often more dangerous,
in a marriage, where you'remarried and name only.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Right.
And there will be someone outthere who likes to read
statistics, who will say butthere's a statistic that says
that married people have betterphysical health and live longer.
And I would say what kind ofmarriage?
Because if we're going to quotea statistic, it's the kind that
they are.
As the Gottmans would put it,masters right.
So the Gottmans kind of splitpeople into masters and
(23:10):
disasters.
Disasters are the reallydestructive, very unhealthy
marriages that often end indivorce, and the masters are the
ones that learn how to workthrough things.
There's mutuality there is theability for each partner to
accept influence, and there is acorrelation between better
physical health and those kindof marriages, but not the other.
In fact, there's an inverse thatwe find with it, because I
(23:33):
can't tell you and I know you'veexperienced this with survivors
how many autoimmune disordersand physical health issues there
are for victims of abuse,because abuse, even if you've
never been hit, is physical, andI say this a lot unless you can
take your brain outside of yourskull and stick it in a two,
into a jar, it is still insideyour body, which would make it
physical, and, while we're at it, it's dumping out
(23:55):
neurochemicals that you'reessentially pickling yourself in
, like cortisol and things thatwe shouldn't have all the time,
and so we're sentencing peopleto a life of physical harm.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
It's interesting because, like the image that I
get when I'm envisioning, likewhat you're describing, just in,
how the body turns on itself,really autoimmune diseases are
that the body's doing it.
Basically it's being programmedby the abuse because the abuse
is so harmful.
So the body is just like.
It's almost like well, I'm justgoing to keep it on.
I'm going to turn on myself,because that's what I've
(24:29):
experienced for all this timethrough abuse, and it's a
horrible, horrible sentence.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, and so when pastors take a passage like this
one in James and give it I'mgoing to use a term that isn't
really a term, but I'm about tomake one up evangelical polish,
which is we're just going tomake it purdy and you're going
to go obey and everybody's goingto go obey and we're going to
be fine, and not really look atwhat does it look like to be a
(24:56):
doer of the whole counsel of theword of God?
What does it look like to letit bear weight on you?
And I think that's where we getinto that.
Don't look in a mirror and seewhat you look like and walk away
and not do something about it.
You know, every now and again,I think, pastors get this view
(25:17):
of where things really are andthey can either shove it down
and ignore it, or they cancontend with something that
might not have been theirexpectation.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yeah, these are uncomfortable.
Anytime you go under thesurface it's uncomfortable.
And I think the degree to whichpastors are themselves willing
ourselves willing to dig in andsay so.
What part of me has not beentransformed by the gospel?
What part of me maybe hasn'tbeen baptized?
If we're not willing to askthose questions, then we need to
(25:49):
be very, very slow to speakwhen it comes to putting more
weight on another person.
We need to look at ourselvesand ask why we've kept that part
of ourselves out of the watersof baptism and then invite
people in in a gentle and kindand relational way, because that
is the way of God.
That is the way.
That's what Jesus does.
(26:10):
He doesn't yell at us, hedoesn't scream at us.
He's not an angry streetpreacher, he's the embodiment of
love who came here and he'ssaying.
He's just saying, come and see.
And why don't we just do that?
Why don't we just say to peoplehey, I'm not trying to give you
more things to do.
What if you just come and see?
Why don't you walk with me?
Let's do this together.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Absolutely, and I love that at the end of this
particular passage, theoutpouring of that, when James
says, okay, what does it looklike?
It's loving well.
I mean, if we had to distillthat sentence down, it would be
loving well those who needsupport.
Be loving well those who needsupport.
(26:51):
And I can't think of anyonemore widow-like than a victim of
abuse, anyone more orphan-likethan a child whose parent is
harmful.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
No, no Victims of abuse it's.
In some ways, I think it'sworse than being a widow,
because widows the husbanddidn't choose to die, you know,
presumptively but a victim ofabuse, this is someone whose
husband chose to act as thoughthat person was dead to them.
And anytime we treat people ina way that dehumanizes them,
(27:21):
strips them of their agency ortheir identity, we speak in an
ugly way to them or we try tocontrol things about them, we're
taking away their humanity, andto me, that is absolutely a
more extreme version of beingwidowed.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Absolutely.
And what an abandonment.
I just think about how harmfulbeing abandoned is for people
being othered, beingmarginalized, losing your
community.
And we see when we read thescriptures in the Jewish
synagogue we get upset withsomebody, they would expel them
(27:57):
and yeet them out, for lack of abetter way to put it right now.
And you lose your wholecommunity.
And so for so many abusevictims, that is the reality of
what happens for them, because,instead of getting into the
messy and really wrestling forthe pastor, for me in this
moment, what does it look liketo be a doer of the word and not
(28:18):
a hearer only?
Even if I can say I think abuseis wrong, I think coercive
control is wicked.
You can say that.
But do you say it is it forFirst Baptist Methodist
Episcopalian church down theroad, or is it for me?
Because it will show up?
It is in your backyard.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
You just might not know, I guarantee it is, and
it's scary.
We've experienced that in ourown church and it was very, very
challenging, very, verychallenging to address.
So I do not at all act likechurches have to be perfect or
you're not going to do anythingperfectly, but you can always
take a step to be better.
Just as you know, it's sort oflike we all need to be in this
kind of action, reflectionaction.
(28:59):
You know it's like we need tosort of look at what we did, and
I can tell you that cases thatI've dealt with more personally,
I can always see things that Iwould do differently every
single time.
Never done it perfectly,probably never will.
But that doesn't mean I justleave it there and say I'm not
perfect.
You know, no, leaning into.
(29:19):
What does it look like for me tolove people?
Well, it looks like me tryingto figure out how to do things
for them and stand with them ina way that helps them to feel
loved, and not for me to say,well, look what I did for you.
You know, here's all thesethings that I did for you, so
you should have received that.
No, it looks like me askingthem what would it look like for
(29:40):
you to feel cared for?
What would it look like for youto feel like we walked with you
well through this very, veryhard time?
What would it look like for youto feel like we walked with you
well through this very, veryhard time?
What would it look like for youto have community here?
If you still want communityhere and if you don't want
community here, do you havecommunity elsewhere?
Because I still believe that'simportant.
Do you have people?
Where are your people?
Who are they and what can we doto support you?
Speaker 1 (30:02):
So, as we land the plane here and just really talk
about what it looks like to bedoers of the word in this space
in a different way than maybe apastor might have thought of it
before, and maybe broadening outwhat it looks like to walk with
Christ, what would you invite?
Pastors and elders and leaderswho are listening into?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
who are listening into Gosh.
I would say to any pastors andelders and leaders, I would say
who are the people in yourcommunity who are suffering and
not being actively cared for?
Who are they?
(30:45):
Don't look at them.
I would encourage you not tolook at them as the ones that
are detracting you from yourmission of growing your church.
I would say, I would encourageyou to look at them and say what
if walking with them is howyou're going to see Jesus more
clearly?
I look at it really like aMatthew 25.
Are you noticing Jesus in thepeople that you meet?
(31:06):
And it's not going to be in allthe affluent ones that look
like they have it all together.
It's going to be in thestrugglers.
Are you looking at strugglersnot as an inconvenience, but as
an opportunity to love and toshow Jesus and to invite them to
something better and morebeautiful?
I believe that's the gospel.
(31:26):
It's not about behavioralmodification.
You said that so well, tabby.
It's about inviting people tocome to know the Lord in a real
and authentic way.
And how do we do that?
We meet people where they are.
Look for those opportunities.
You'll see people in everysingle church that are
marginalized.
Don't be someone that leavesthem on the margins.
Invite them in.
There is no one in your churchor outside of your church.
(31:50):
That's so far gone that theLord does not want them to come
to his table.
There's not one.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
And I'll also say, even in that and I just want to
make this really clear, becauseI've heard pastors do this so
often Well, the Lord would notwant Brother Jim, who is the
destructive individual in themarriage, to be far from him and
it's like no, he doesn't.
In fact, you should call him torepentance, because that's
what's actually loving.
That does not mean there arenot consequences and that does
(32:16):
not mean there are notboundaries, so you can invite
him to the Lord's table, notinside the walls of the church
if it would endanger a victim orthe victim's children the
church if it would endanger avictim or the victim's children?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Oh, 100% true.
And so often when you confrontsomeone who's been abusive,
everyone has a choice, but a lotof times people who are abusive
are going to choose to be moreprideful when they're confronted
.
Doesn't always happen, but itoften happens because it comes
from a sense of entitlement.
Anyway, there's a good chancethat you're going to have to
practice some of the Bible thatyou preach well, and practice
church discipline.
(32:51):
Actually removing someone fromthe congregation and what Paul
says is handing them over toSatan and now that sounds so
scary, that sounds like, oh wow,that sounds rough.
But what is it for?
Not punitive, it's restorative.
The goal isn't to banish theperson permanently.
The goal is that they'd have awake-up call when they're handed
(33:12):
over to Satan and then Godwould invite them back into the
fold.
But not giving consequences tounrepentant abusers in your
congregation is like having thefox guard the hen house.
It's completely unacceptableand it's dangerous and we need
to make sure that we're standingon the right side and that's
standing up for victims and notcausing them to experience
(33:34):
secondary abuse in the church.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Absolutely, absolutely Well, neil, I am so
grateful that we have gotten todo this, and I mean honestly,
you and I could talk for hoursupon hours.
I would like you to talk aboutthe church partnership.
How can you help churches dothis?
Well, because there might besome people listening who went
(33:56):
yeah, I don't know what to dowith any of this and we actually
have a solution for that, sotalk about that.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
We do.
I'm super excited for this and,Tabby, thank you for having me
on.
I hope we'll do it again.
And, yes, we could talk forhours and hours and it's super
fun.
The pastors, church leaders,anybody out there that you're
like hey, but I don't know howto respond well to abuse.
I don't shame you for that.
I was in your shoes when I wasbrand new in ministry.
I didn't know how to respondwell to abuse either.
(34:22):
That's why I do what I do today, because I get to in some ways
encourage pastors with the verythings that I needed that I
didn't have 18 years ago when Iwas new in ministry.
So as the director of churchpartnerships, I really get to
offer two pieces to churches,and one I call the evangelistic
side and one I call thediscipleship side because I know
pastors speak that language.
So the evangelistic side isreally it's a half day training.
(34:44):
So you invite us out, we comeand we do a half-day training
for you and we teach you aboutthe basics of domestic abuse and
coercive control, and verylikely what's going to happen is
you're going to have a numberof people in your congregation
that say, hey, I think I'mcalled to be a part of something
more.
Is there a next step Can we domore with this organization so
that we can learn more aboutthis and respond well to victims
(35:06):
?
And the answer is yes, andthat's the discipleship piece,
where we come alongside you andwe partner with you and we help
you learn to respond well.
You're never going to respondperfectly, but you're going to
learn to respond well and we dothat through helping you with
support groups and creatingpolicy, and you actually have a
person who's trained reallydeeply in all this and an
(35:28):
incredible advocacy course.
That Tabby's a part of.
It's amazing teaching and it'sa way for you to not just be
reactive to abusive situations,but you can be proactive and you
can get ahead of this, and whathappens is ultimately, your
church will become known as achurch that responds well is
(35:49):
ultimately your church willbecome known as a church that
responds well, and victims allover the place start going to
churches that respond well,because so few right now do
respond well.
So this looks like being a doerof the word to me.
So if you're a pastor out thereand you know that you need to
learn how to do this, this wouldbe one way that you can model
what it looks like to be a doerof the word.
Responding well to abuse isvery much like caring for
(36:10):
orphans and widows in theirdistress.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
It very much represents the heart of James,
the brother of Jesus in thispassage James 1, 22 through 27.
Absolutely Well, neil.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
It has been a joy.
You will, of course, be invitedback, duh.
Awesome, I'm so grateful foreveryone who's listened to hey
Tabby this week.
You can always reach out.
Everything, all the ways tofind Neil, all the things that
were mentioned will be in theshow notes.
So if you are listening to thisand you're like I don't even
(36:40):
know, I don't even know if mychurch could you know, should I
mean it's domestic abuse a thing.
It's coercive control a thing.
Man, do a, protect the flock,which is that evangelistic piece
that Neil was talking about.
Just do it.
You have nothing to lose andeverything to gain, and I would
just commend it to you highlythat you go and you engage.
It will not harm you, it willonly benefit you and it will
(37:03):
edify the body of Christ.
So thanks for being here withus.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Thanks so much, Tabby .
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Thanks for joining me for today's episode of hey
Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing.
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud, withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof hey Tabby.
I am so stoked.
(00:42):
First of all, I'm interviewingone of my favorite people, which
is just amazing, and I knew hewas going to be one of my
favorite people the very firsttime I ever talked to him.
And the other person on thecall was like why am I here?
Because this person I had somuch to talk about.
So I am going to introduce toyou my friend, neil Shorey.
He is a pastor, husband and dadof three daughters.
(01:04):
He serves as the director ofchurch partnerships for Call to
Peace Ministries, where he leadsan amazing team that equips
churches to respond to abuse notwith silence but with courage
and compassion.
And I do know some of thechurch partnership folks.
They are amazing.
Neil's journey into advocacybegan when a pastoral
conversation helped uncover oneof the nation's most chilling
(01:26):
domestic abuse cases.
Ever since, he's been on amission to help churches become
the safest place on earth forthe vulnerable.
He's passionate about healthytheology, practical action and
helping leaders move fromwell-meaning to well-trained.
Neil, I'm so glad that you'rehere.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Thank you so much for having me.
I've been so excited for thisconversation.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
We're going to have a really good time.
So buckle up everyone.
This will be fun.
We're going to talk about apassage in James, and I was
sitting in church one Sundaywhen I was listening to this be
preached, and in the middle ofthe sermon I texted Neil and
said, hey, I think we shouldtalk about this.
And Neil said, yes, we should.
And so here we are.
(02:10):
So I'm going to start us off byreading this section of
scripture, and I know for somepeople that scripture is tricky.
There will be timestamps in thedescription, so if you need to
move past it and hear oursummary and discussion on it,
you can do that, because I knowthat for some survivors of abuse
, this can be really hard.
But, like you guys know wholisten to this podcast, biblical
(02:31):
literacy is really important tome, and so I definitely want to
dive into this together.
So we're going to be in James.
We're going to start in chapterone, verse 22, and we're going
to end at verse 27.
So the end of the chapter andI'm reading this from the
Christian Standard Bible and Iwant to note the very first
sentence for some that arelistening is going to be a
(02:52):
trigger.
I do just want to remind folksto take care of you you're the
only you that you have.
But be doers of the word and nothearers only deceiving
yourselves.
Because if anyone is a hearerof the word and not a doer, he
is like someone looking at hisown face in a mirror, for he
looks at himself, goes away andimmediately forgets what kind of
(03:13):
person he was.
But the one who looks intentlyinto the perfect law of freedom
and perseveres in it and is nota forgetful hearer but a doer
who works, this person will beblessed in what he does.
If anyone thinks he isreligious without controlling
his tongue, his religion isuseless and he deceives himself.
(03:33):
Pure and undefiled religionbefore God the Father is this to
look after orphans and widowsin their distress and to keep
oneself unstained from the worldin their distress and to keep
oneself unstained from the world.
So that's a whole bunch ofscripture and I know some of its
parts has been proof texted andweaponized against victims,
especially to stay indestructive marriages and not to
(03:56):
seek safety.
But I want to talk about itfrom the pastor side.
How do we think, as anabuse-informed group that we are
, how do we help pastors seethis not just as go follow a
bunch of rules.
And how are they doers of theword?
(04:17):
Maybe a little differently thanthey think.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah Well, this passage has always meant a lot
to me, because in one of thefirst churches that I was ever
connected with, I had the chanceto start a ministry that was
specific to caring for orphansand widows.
That was the gist of theministry, and really what I
think it's important for pastorsto do is look at this, and this
(04:40):
is not about us puttingsomething upon someone else, but
it's really an invitation to usto step into the kind of
religion, the kind of care, thekind of congregation that God
wants us to be.
And what is that?
It's the very last verse.
Religion that God accepts ispure and faultless.
Is this, in other words, like,if you want to know what your
(05:00):
church should look like, itshould look like this To look
after orphans and widows intheir distress.
Now, it'd be really easy to justfocus on those two and say,
okay, well, we don't have to doanything else for anyone else,
and of course, that would bemissing the point in a really
grandiose way.
But it's just this idea thatthe power and the strength that
(05:21):
we have is supposed to be usedto come alongside people and
underneath them, to shore themup.
It's never supposed to be usedto hold them down.
So, rather than saying thatthis is for other people to do,
this is a list of do's anddon'ts for other people.
No, this is an invitation toleaders to say what do we want
our churches to look like?
What do we want our ethic to becharacterized by?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
absolutely, and you know, I think it is so easy to
use this as a spiritual bypassif you're not paying attention.
So you have a sister that comesto you and says these things
are happening in my marriage.
I don't even know what to callthem, because that's usually how
it happens when people come tosee me.
(06:04):
They're just anxious and theywant to be a better wife and
then she starts telling herstory.
And if you know what you'relistening to, you hear the
elements of coercive control.
Well it's easy as a pastor tosay, well, go have more sex.
Or God says submit be a doer ofthe word, not a hearer.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
only what does that do to the woman, then that has
come.
Oh, it's super destructive Ifwe just take everything at face
value and we just we don'trecognize that the issue that
comes to us is simply thepresenting issue.
If we're not curious aboutwhat's actually going on and we
don't ask good questions and wedon't know the very complex
(06:45):
dynamics of course of control,we're not curious about what's
actually going on, we don't askgood questions and we don't know
the very complex dynamics ofcourse of control, we're not
going to know to look for thosethings.
And that's why it's soimportant for churches to be
trained on this to at leastevery church in the nation
should have a DV 101.
This is a one in three issuejust for women in your
congregation.
So this is a significant issue.
One in seven men, one in threewomen.
This is a significant issue.
One in seven men, one in threewomen.
(07:06):
This is a problem.
We should talk about it.
But if you don't know thesedynamics, then you don't know
what to look for.
So then you're just going totry to be the Bible answer guy,
you know, and it's like no,that's not, that's not the heart
of the Lord.
The Lord always invites us tolook at what's actually going on
here.
What is this person actuallysaying, rather than just a
presenting issue?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, and I think you know, when we think of being
doers of the word, I want to saybe doers of the whole word.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
you know not just, and that is a whole word
modification, yeah, not justbehavioral modification, right
Like right.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Okay, I can go do a thing and this is what we see.
I mean, you know, I work withperpetrators periodically,
co-facilitated perpetratorintervention groups, and this is
often where we see folks makethat checkbox move.
Well, I'm doing the thing.
The problem is your heart isdifferent.
You're trying to get back ingood graces, right, you're
(08:19):
trying to get back in goodgraces.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
You're trying to utilize manipulative kindness to
weave your web again and suckyour victim back in, and your
heart really isn't different.
So you're not actually a dothink of the name of it, but it
was with Jennifer Aniston andVince Vaughn years ago and they
had this marital squabble aftera party and she was trying to
get him to do the dishes andfinally he caught on that, oh,
I'm supposed to do the dishes,so he goes over there.
And she was still upset aboutit and he goes.
Well, what is your problem?
And she just goes.
(08:40):
I want you to want to do thedishes.
And it was hilarious.
It was just a totally hilariousline, but I think it really
illustrates something about theheart.
She didn't want to have to keepasking him or make him finally
catch all the hints that shewanted him to participate in the
household work.
She wanted him to see the wholething and see her household
(09:06):
work.
She wanted him to like see thewhole thing and see her, and I
think that it's really reallyeasy to in churches to try to
get people to be good littleboys and girls and then have a
whole lot of things that aregoing on in the heart that are
never addressed, and God iscalling us to so much greater
than that.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Absolutely, and good scriptural understanding is
looking at scripture with what Ilike to look at as three lenses
.
I got this from jen wilkin itis for them and for them, for us
and for always, for me and fornow.
So how do we look at thisscripture in that way?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
so, so, so good, gosh , when I read this and I think
about what's god asking for metoday?
What does this look like for me?
In what ways am I personallyjust listening to the word and
then not doing the thing thatgod's asking me to do For me?
I know that he just wants me tobe the same person everywhere.
(10:08):
He doesn't want me to have achurch persona and a home
persona and then a gas stationor Starbucks persona.
He wants me to be exactly whohe has made me to be and who
he's invited me to become.
He wants me to be thateverywhere I am, so that nobody
wonders who the real me is.
They'll see who I amconsistently, and I think
(10:31):
everyone.
I think there's an invitationfor all of us when we read this,
like, what's the thing thatyou're ignoring that God's
consistently putting before you?
And my guess is it's not goingto be a list of do's and don'ts,
it's going to be more ofmatters of the heart.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, I mean.
God has so much to saythroughout scripture, from
Genesis to Revelation, about theheart and about his care and
kindness for us and to be madefrom glory to glory to be like
him as he's changing us throughsanctification.
All of those things are morethan just a single verse proof
text, and I think this is whatwe see in coercive control so
often, where half of verses getused right, so like if this is
(11:13):
being weaponized and someone isbeing told well, go be doers and
not hearers.
Only you, as wife, submit, yougo do the thing right.
And be demure and mindful andlook like the Proverbs 31 woman,
which I'm like.
you should read that againbecause she might actually be,
because she was pretty amazing,but you know, we get that piece
of it and then they're told thatthey're wicked because they
(11:35):
maybe resisted and said no.
And said I'm trying to set aboundary and this isn't OK.
And then they get called thingslike you know, having a Jezebel
spirit which is also completelyscripturally wrong.
And you know it's so importantto handle the word of God well
if you are a pastor and to bereally careful, because the book
(11:58):
of James also says I hope abunch of you don't desire to be
teachers because you are held toa higher standard, so I feel
like there's a lot of weight toreally wrestle with.
Is this something I believe andteach because it's what I've
always been told?
Or is it something I believeand teach because this is the
Holy Spirit and the word of Godbearing weight on my life and
(12:20):
changing me from glory to gloryto look more like Jesus?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Absolutely.
That's the key, you know.
I think it's.
We can say, oh, we're trying tobe biblically based, and my
question is so what does thatactually mean?
And what I want to hear is thatchurches are trying to look
like Jesus and how they embodyscripture and embody love, right
.
So it's like when I look atJesus, when I can get awfully
(12:45):
confused when I take, when Icherry pick verses or even some
books of the Bible where I readit and I'm like, well, that's
that's, that's something, that'sa harsh one, that's a confusing
word, boy, that that makes mefeel confused about God.
The thing that I always do issay, okay, if I'm confused about
(13:06):
what the Bible's saying aboutGod, to just look at Jesus,
because Jesus, scripture says,is the image of the invisible
God, okay.
So if I'm ever confused aboutGod, all I have to do is go back
to Jesus.
That's all I have to do.
He will show me.
He's going to bring light tothe passages that are confusing.
(13:26):
So when I'm confused aboutGod's character, when I'm
confused about how he works inthe world, how he treats people,
I'm always going to look atJesus, because that's who we
look at.
So he gave everything for usand because of that I can trust
God of that, I can trust GodAbsolutely.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I do think I'm going to say this because this is
something that I've heard manypastors say when I have these
kinds of discussions, and I'mcertain you've heard something
similar is but what about sin?
Are we just going to let peoplesin Neal, and we're not going
to call out her sin?
Maybe she's harsh and isn'teveryone a sinner?
Are you expecting perfection?
I mean, gosh man, are you softon sin?
(14:12):
How would you respond to that?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I mean, I've certainly heard people say
exactly that.
It's like, well, I'm sure she'snot perfect, and it's like,
well, first of all, if youreally want to talk about her.
Yeah, no one's perfect.
And it's like, well, first ofall if you really want to talk
about her.
Yeah, no one's perfect.
And that's also not the point.
It's the art of deflection.
You know, let's talk aboutwhat's really going on here, and
when it comes to abusivebehavior, all about control.
It's all about one person withthe power, with the influence,
(14:39):
with the authority, who looks atthe other person as an object
rather than someone created inthe image of God.
Does that mean are we at allsaying that that person is sin
free?
Well, of course not.
That's also not the issue.
And there's a very, very bigdifference between being a
sinner, which, according toscripture, all of us that's all
of us.
But there's a big differencebetween someone who misses the
(15:02):
mark that God has set andsomeone who's perpetrating sin
upon another.
It's very intentional, it'svery purposeful, it's
destructive.
Those are very, very differentthings, and when we mix those
things up, we end up having awhole lot of victims that have
now experienced a secondaryvictimization.
So we have this wake of victimsin the path of the church, and
(15:25):
that should never, ever, ever be.
The church should be the safestplace on earth for victims,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I think, in an effort to push back against some
things from just modern societythat truly aren't good, that
there is a need for a way to Apendulum swing in the other
direction that goes a bit, and arigidity that ultimately then
(15:55):
idolizes the institution ofmarriage instead of worshiping
the living God 100% true and,you know, anytime we look at
institutions and we want to holdthose up, it's like you can
start doing that with a reallygood heart, but it can get
awfully twisted and, I think,really miss the meaning that God
has for it.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
You know, it's sort of like the Sabbath, right?
So Jesus was critiqued by thePharisees when his followers
were picking grain on theSabbath to eat.
And the Pharisees are like ohJesus, I think you need to have
a talk with those guys, becausethey're obviously not.
I think you need to have a talkwith those guys because they're
obviously not.
They haven't caught on to thefact that it's the Sabbath.
(16:36):
And it's like, and Jesus looksat him and goes no, no, no, no,
no, no, no.
Sabbath is for man, not man forthe Sabbath.
And I think in the same way, inchurches we can look at the
institution of marriage as theend goal.
And it's not, because if itwere, then why would some people
never get married?
Right, it's not the end goal.
The end goal is to be conformedto the image of Jesus.
(16:58):
And the end goal of marriage,like marriage, isn't the
ultimate goal.
The ultimate goal is to havepeople in union together.
And when you have abuse, that'sindicated you have one person
that's trying to be in unionwith another, but unfortunately
that person's not leaning intothe Lord and leaning into what
it looks like to put theirspouse first.
(17:20):
What they're doing isattempting to destroy the other
person who's tried to be marriedto them, and that's not good
and not healthy, and they'vealready broken that union.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Right, they're consuming them.
Ultimately, it is a consumptivemindset and it is one where the
victim is seen as property.
I refer to it as a couch thatcan make sandwiches and stuff.
You know, sometimes in thebedroom.
They treat their spouse like ablow up doll and it's not an
image bearer idea, right.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
No.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
They're not looking at someone as an image bearer of
a living God.
They're looking at them assomething to be consumed for
their pleasure, which is notscriptural.
And I think it's hard forpastors at times to really
reconcile that because we havelanguage intimacy so poorly In
fact I'm not entirely sure welanguage it at all in the church
(18:09):
at this point.
We talk about intercourse butwe don't talk about true
intimacy.
And you know, as you weretalking, I was thinking about
something that Sheila Gregoiresaid to me when I interviewed
her, and she talks aboutemotional maturity.
And wouldn't it be better if,instead of focusing on marriage,
we focused on the emotionalmaturity of the parties involved
(18:29):
?
So then, when they got married,they got married healthy, and
my heart goes, that'sdiscipleship.
What?
If we actually really discipledpeople to look like Jesus, to
follow hard after Jesus.
What might marriage?
I mean the church as a whole.
What might it look like?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Oh, it'd be incredibly different.
What if we built into ourpremarital counseling, which so
many churches do, and I thinkthat's great, that's a great
start?
What if we built in questionsthat would look for elements of
emotional maturity?
And also what if we regularlygave surveys and had good
conversations around abusivedynamics?
What if we had individualconversations with a woman to
(19:09):
say, hey, let me describe somebehaviors that you're really,
really going to want to stayaway from.
Have you experienced any ofthese with your fiance?
Because, as we know, in theabuse realm, in the abuse field,
a lot of times when people arebeing abused, they don't even
say they're being abused.
They know they're uncomfortable, they know they have some
anxiety around being with thatperson, but they oftentimes
(19:32):
wonder if there's just somethingwrong with them internally,
like what's wrong with me that Ican't just feel normal in this
context.
But when we educate people injust simple conversational ways,
we could help them avoid alifetime of being tethered to
someone that's hell-bent ontheir destruction.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Absolutely, and if a church needs a little support
with that, our friend, sydneyMillage wrote this book called
37 Ways to be Taken Captive andit's such a great book for
dating to walk through.
Where are the elements ofcoercive control and what are
some things that you want to beaware of?
So if there's a pastor, elderleader, biblical counselor
listening or licensed therapistlistening because I think all
(20:13):
things are applicable for all ofus then I would commend that
book because that can help youhave some of those questions
about what the nature and tenorof the relationship is.
I also think that folks doingpremarital counseling should be
bold enough to say you shouldnot marry.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
And yes, it doesn't happen often enough.
Yeah, and I would say if you'vebeen a pastor for more than a
few years and you have not, ifyou haven't said that to someone
, you probably need to get alittle bit tougher and check in
with yourself on why you'rehaving a hard time.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Being honest, yeah, it's a tough conversation.
I mean, let's be real, right,it's tough to say.
I know that you love thisperson and I know that you've
put deposits in places.
Your parents might have putdeposits in places and that's no
laughing matter.
Wedding dresses are expensiveWeddings.
The average wedding issomething like 40 grand.
(21:04):
I was blown away by that.
So, yeah, there's a significantdollar amount, but can you
place a dollar amount on yoursoul?
If someone, ultimately, istrying to take your personhood?
I'm going to say no.
I feel like we can always earnmoney back.
We can't heal as easily as wecould if we didn't get married
(21:26):
in the first place.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Right.
I've seen a lot of people overthe years say, gosh, I just
really love to be married oneday.
It's just, I just haven't foundthe right person and I'm like,
hey, I hear you, I'm grateful tobe married.
I'm so glad I married theperson that I did.
I'm so glad I didn't marry theother people that I might have.
I'm really grateful for that,but for that.
(21:51):
But I can tell you that thepeople that I've encountered who
are the saddest and theloneliest aren't the single
people.
The people that I know that arethe saddest and most despondent
and lonely are those married tothose who are actually against
them when they call themselvesmarried.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Right, yep, married but really single on the inside.
Awesome how I've languaged it,yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's great.
That's such a good picture too.
It's yeah, it's horrible.
You know, it's like we've allexperienced being around people
and, yeah, we don't have a senseof community.
It's like you can walk on thestreets of any major city in the
U?
S.
You can walk in New York cityand it's like, if you aren't
with someone, you're justwalking.
You'll encounter 100,000 peoplethat day.
(22:31):
You know thousands of peoplethat day and you could not have
one conversation except with,maybe, the street vendor looking
for a good hot dog.
That's still.
That's, a very, very lonelyplace to be.
I think it's significantly moreso, and often more dangerous,
in a marriage, where you'remarried and name only.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Right.
And there will be someone outthere who likes to read
statistics, who will say butthere's a statistic that says
that married people have betterphysical health and live longer.
And I would say what kind ofmarriage?
Because if we're going to quotea statistic, it's the kind that
they are.
As the Gottmans would put it,masters right.
So the Gottmans kind of splitpeople into masters and
(23:10):
disasters.
Disasters are the reallydestructive, very unhealthy
marriages that often end indivorce, and the masters are the
ones that learn how to workthrough things.
There's mutuality there is theability for each partner to
accept influence, and there is acorrelation between better
physical health and those kindof marriages, but not the other.
In fact, there's an inverse thatwe find with it, because I
(23:33):
can't tell you and I know you'veexperienced this with survivors
how many autoimmune disordersand physical health issues there
are for victims of abuse,because abuse, even if you've
never been hit, is physical, andI say this a lot unless you can
take your brain outside of yourskull and stick it in a two,
into a jar, it is still insideyour body, which would make it
physical, and, while we're at it, it's dumping out
(23:55):
neurochemicals that you'reessentially pickling yourself in
, like cortisol and things thatwe shouldn't have all the time,
and so we're sentencing peopleto a life of physical harm.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
It's interesting because, like the image that I
get when I'm envisioning, likewhat you're describing, just in,
how the body turns on itself,really autoimmune diseases are
that the body's doing it.
Basically it's being programmedby the abuse because the abuse
is so harmful.
So the body is just like.
It's almost like well, I'm justgoing to keep it on.
I'm going to turn on myself,because that's what I've
(24:29):
experienced for all this timethrough abuse, and it's a
horrible, horrible sentence.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, and so when pastors take a passage like this
one in James and give it I'mgoing to use a term that isn't
really a term, but I'm about tomake one up evangelical polish,
which is we're just going tomake it purdy and you're going
to go obey and everybody's goingto go obey and we're going to
be fine, and not really look atwhat does it look like to be a
(24:56):
doer of the whole counsel of theword of God?
What does it look like to letit bear weight on you?
And I think that's where we getinto that.
Don't look in a mirror and seewhat you look like and walk away
and not do something about it.
You know, every now and again,I think, pastors get this view
(25:17):
of where things really are andthey can either shove it down
and ignore it, or they cancontend with something that
might not have been theirexpectation.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yeah, these are uncomfortable.
Anytime you go under thesurface it's uncomfortable.
And I think the degree to whichpastors are themselves willing
ourselves willing to dig in andsay so.
What part of me has not beentransformed by the gospel?
What part of me maybe hasn'tbeen baptized?
If we're not willing to askthose questions, then we need to
(25:49):
be very, very slow to speakwhen it comes to putting more
weight on another person.
We need to look at ourselvesand ask why we've kept that part
of ourselves out of the watersof baptism and then invite
people in in a gentle and kindand relational way, because that
is the way of God.
That is the way.
That's what Jesus does.
(26:10):
He doesn't yell at us, hedoesn't scream at us.
He's not an angry streetpreacher, he's the embodiment of
love who came here and he'ssaying.
He's just saying, come and see.
And why don't we just do that?
Why don't we just say to peoplehey, I'm not trying to give you
more things to do.
What if you just come and see?
Why don't you walk with me?
Let's do this together.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Absolutely, and I love that at the end of this
particular passage, theoutpouring of that, when James
says, okay, what does it looklike?
It's loving well.
I mean, if we had to distillthat sentence down, it would be
loving well those who needsupport.
Be loving well those who needsupport.
(26:51):
And I can't think of anyonemore widow-like than a victim of
abuse, anyone more orphan-likethan a child whose parent is
harmful.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
No, no Victims of abuse it's.
In some ways, I think it'sworse than being a widow,
because widows the husbanddidn't choose to die, you know,
presumptively but a victim ofabuse, this is someone whose
husband chose to act as thoughthat person was dead to them.
And anytime we treat people ina way that dehumanizes them,
(27:21):
strips them of their agency ortheir identity, we speak in an
ugly way to them or we try tocontrol things about them, we're
taking away their humanity, andto me, that is absolutely a
more extreme version of beingwidowed.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Absolutely.
And what an abandonment.
I just think about how harmfulbeing abandoned is for people
being othered, beingmarginalized, losing your
community.
And we see when we read thescriptures in the Jewish
synagogue we get upset withsomebody, they would expel them
(27:57):
and yeet them out, for lack of abetter way to put it right now.
And you lose your wholecommunity.
And so for so many abusevictims, that is the reality of
what happens for them, because,instead of getting into the
messy and really wrestling forthe pastor, for me in this
moment, what does it look liketo be a doer of the word and not
(28:18):
a hearer only?
Even if I can say I think abuseis wrong, I think coercive
control is wicked.
You can say that.
But do you say it is it forFirst Baptist Methodist
Episcopalian church down theroad, or is it for me?
Because it will show up?
It is in your backyard.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
You just might not know, I guarantee it is, and
it's scary.
We've experienced that in ourown church and it was very, very
challenging, very, verychallenging to address.
So I do not at all act likechurches have to be perfect or
you're not going to do anythingperfectly, but you can always
take a step to be better.
Just as you know, it's sort oflike we all need to be in this
kind of action, reflectionaction.
(28:59):
You know it's like we need tosort of look at what we did, and
I can tell you that cases thatI've dealt with more personally,
I can always see things that Iwould do differently every
single time.
Never done it perfectly,probably never will.
But that doesn't mean I justleave it there and say I'm not
perfect.
You know, no, leaning into.
(29:19):
What does it look like for me tolove people?
Well, it looks like me tryingto figure out how to do things
for them and stand with them ina way that helps them to feel
loved, and not for me to say,well, look what I did for you.
You know, here's all thesethings that I did for you, so
you should have received that.
No, it looks like me askingthem what would it look like for
(29:40):
you to feel cared for?
What would it look like for youto feel like we walked with you
well through this very, veryhard time?
What would it look like for youto feel like we walked with you
well through this very, veryhard time?
What would it look like for youto have community here?
If you still want communityhere and if you don't want
community here, do you havecommunity elsewhere?
Because I still believe that'simportant.
Do you have people?
Where are your people?
Who are they and what can we doto support you?
Speaker 1 (30:02):
So, as we land the plane here and just really talk
about what it looks like to bedoers of the word in this space
in a different way than maybe apastor might have thought of it
before, and maybe broadening outwhat it looks like to walk with
Christ, what would you invite?
Pastors and elders and leaderswho are listening into?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
who are listening into Gosh.
I would say to any pastors andelders and leaders, I would say
who are the people in yourcommunity who are suffering and
not being actively cared for?
Who are they?
(30:45):
Don't look at them.
I would encourage you not tolook at them as the ones that
are detracting you from yourmission of growing your church.
I would say, I would encourageyou to look at them and say what
if walking with them is howyou're going to see Jesus more
clearly?
I look at it really like aMatthew 25.
Are you noticing Jesus in thepeople that you meet?
(31:06):
And it's not going to be in allthe affluent ones that look
like they have it all together.
It's going to be in thestrugglers.
Are you looking at strugglersnot as an inconvenience, but as
an opportunity to love and toshow Jesus and to invite them to
something better and morebeautiful?
I believe that's the gospel.
(31:26):
It's not about behavioralmodification.
You said that so well, tabby.
It's about inviting people tocome to know the Lord in a real
and authentic way.
And how do we do that?
We meet people where they are.
Look for those opportunities.
You'll see people in everysingle church that are
marginalized.
Don't be someone that leavesthem on the margins.
Invite them in.
There is no one in your churchor outside of your church.
(31:50):
That's so far gone that theLord does not want them to come
to his table.
There's not one.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
And I'll also say, even in that and I just want to
make this really clear, becauseI've heard pastors do this so
often Well, the Lord would notwant Brother Jim, who is the
destructive individual in themarriage, to be far from him and
it's like no, he doesn't.
In fact, you should call him torepentance, because that's
what's actually loving.
That does not mean there arenot consequences and that does
(32:16):
not mean there are notboundaries, so you can invite
him to the Lord's table, notinside the walls of the church
if it would endanger a victim orthe victim's children the
church if it would endanger avictim or the victim's children?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Oh, 100% true.
And so often when you confrontsomeone who's been abusive,
everyone has a choice, but a lotof times people who are abusive
are going to choose to be moreprideful when they're confronted
.
Doesn't always happen, but itoften happens because it comes
from a sense of entitlement.
Anyway, there's a good chancethat you're going to have to
practice some of the Bible thatyou preach well, and practice
church discipline.
(32:51):
Actually removing someone fromthe congregation and what Paul
says is handing them over toSatan and now that sounds so
scary, that sounds like, oh wow,that sounds rough.
But what is it for?
Not punitive, it's restorative.
The goal isn't to banish theperson permanently.
The goal is that they'd have awake-up call when they're handed
(33:12):
over to Satan and then Godwould invite them back into the
fold.
But not giving consequences tounrepentant abusers in your
congregation is like having thefox guard the hen house.
It's completely unacceptableand it's dangerous and we need
to make sure that we're standingon the right side and that's
standing up for victims and notcausing them to experience
(33:34):
secondary abuse in the church.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Absolutely, absolutely Well, neil, I am so
grateful that we have gotten todo this, and I mean honestly,
you and I could talk for hoursupon hours.
I would like you to talk aboutthe church partnership.
How can you help churches dothis?
Well, because there might besome people listening who went
(33:56):
yeah, I don't know what to dowith any of this and we actually
have a solution for that, sotalk about that.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
We do.
I'm super excited for this and,Tabby, thank you for having me
on.
I hope we'll do it again.
And, yes, we could talk forhours and hours and it's super
fun.
The pastors, church leaders,anybody out there that you're
like hey, but I don't know howto respond well to abuse.
I don't shame you for that.
I was in your shoes when I wasbrand new in ministry.
I didn't know how to respondwell to abuse either.
(34:22):
That's why I do what I do today, because I get to in some ways
encourage pastors with the verythings that I needed that I
didn't have 18 years ago when Iwas new in ministry.
So as the director of churchpartnerships, I really get to
offer two pieces to churches,and one I call the evangelistic
side and one I call thediscipleship side because I know
pastors speak that language.
So the evangelistic side isreally it's a half day training.
(34:44):
So you invite us out, we comeand we do a half-day training
for you and we teach you aboutthe basics of domestic abuse and
coercive control, and verylikely what's going to happen is
you're going to have a numberof people in your congregation
that say, hey, I think I'mcalled to be a part of something
more.
Is there a next step Can we domore with this organization so
that we can learn more aboutthis and respond well to victims
(35:06):
?
And the answer is yes, andthat's the discipleship piece,
where we come alongside you andwe partner with you and we help
you learn to respond well.
You're never going to respondperfectly, but you're going to
learn to respond well and we dothat through helping you with
support groups and creatingpolicy, and you actually have a
person who's trained reallydeeply in all this and an
(35:28):
incredible advocacy course.
That Tabby's a part of.
It's amazing teaching and it'sa way for you to not just be
reactive to abusive situations,but you can be proactive and you
can get ahead of this, and whathappens is ultimately, your
church will become known as achurch that responds well is
(35:49):
ultimately your church willbecome known as a church that
responds well, and victims allover the place start going to
churches that respond well,because so few right now do
respond well.
So this looks like being a doerof the word to me.
So if you're a pastor out thereand you know that you need to
learn how to do this, this wouldbe one way that you can model
what it looks like to be a doerof the word.
Responding well to abuse isvery much like caring for
(36:10):
orphans and widows in theirdistress.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
It very much represents the heart of James,
the brother of Jesus in thispassage James 1, 22 through 27.
Absolutely Well, neil.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
It has been a joy.
You will, of course, be invitedback, duh.
Awesome, I'm so grateful foreveryone who's listened to hey
Tabby this week.
You can always reach out.
Everything, all the ways tofind Neil, all the things that
were mentioned will be in theshow notes.
So if you are listening to thisand you're like I don't even
(36:40):
know, I don't even know if mychurch could you know, should I
mean it's domestic abuse a thing.
It's coercive control a thing.
Man, do a, protect the flock,which is that evangelistic piece
that Neil was talking about.
Just do it.
You have nothing to lose andeverything to gain, and I would
just commend it to you highlythat you go and you engage.
It will not harm you, it willonly benefit you and it will
(37:03):
edify the body of Christ.
So thanks for being here withus.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Thanks so much, Tabby .
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Thanks for joining me for today's episode of hey
Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing.
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