Is Biblical Counseling That Doesn’t Suck Even Possible? What Trauma Survivors Need to Know

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:39):
Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk
about the hard things out loudwith our actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here, andwe are not take two verses and
call me in the morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.

(01:01):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now, let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof Hey Tabby, and I have
somebody really special herethis week.

(01:23):
I am being joined by JackieEskew, and some of you might
know who Jackie is, but forthose of you who do not, I'm
going to tell you about her.
Jackie is a certified biblicalcounselor through the
Association of BiblicalCounselors.
She's also a level twosupervisor through that
organization.
And she's an InternationalCoaching Federation certified

(01:44):
life coach.
In addition to that, she is acertified Christian trauma care
provider, level two.
And she is also the biblicalcounselor that does not suck at
the journey and the process,which is the counseling practice
that I had up.
And I am super stoked to haveJackie here today because we are
going to talk about biblicalcounseling.

(02:05):
Biblical counseling gets a lotof flack and rightfully so in a
lot of places.
But there are some really goodtrauma-informed biblical
counselors who are not take twoverses and call me in the
morning.
And Jackie is one of them.
So I wanted to bring her on sothat we could talk about that.
So, Jackie, welcome.

(02:25):
I'm so glad that you're here.

SPEAKER_02 (02:27):
Thank you, Tabitha.
It's so fun to be here.
I'm just anticipating the funwe're going to have.
We always have fun together.

SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
We do have fun together.
And we laugh a lot.
So this might be filled withlots of laughter.
So I want to talk about biblicalcounseling.
First of all, how did you gethere as a biblical counselor?
So most young women do not growup and think this is what I want
to do.
I want to become a biblicalcounselor.
So what led you to this point?

SPEAKER_02 (02:57):
I would say what led me to this point was recognizing
that I needed good biblicalcounseling.
And I wouldn't have said it thatway when I needed it.
So my own story holds a lot ofpain from my childhood and then
as an adult going through greatsuffering experiences of that.

(03:18):
And I was looking for goodcounsel.
And I felt like I wasn't reallyable to find that in biblical
counseling at first.
And then secular counselingcouldn't offer me the spiritual
guidance that I needed.

SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
So did you experience good biblical
counseling before you became agood biblical counselor?

SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
I did not, but I would also say I didn't know of
any biblical counselors ingeneral.
It was kind of a new idea forme.
And so when I heard aboutbiblical counseling, I decided
to sign up because I needed thatkind of help.
I was thinking it would help mewrestle through these tough

(04:04):
questions I was having.
I actually took biblicalcounseling twice because the
first time it didn't resonatewith me as much as I wish it
would have.
And I was in a lot of pain whenI was going through it.
And so I was actually wrestlingwith God.
And it would have been veryhelpful for me if I'd had
someone to help me walk throughit.

SPEAKER_00 (04:24):
Yeah.
So it sounds like the first timethat you took biblical
counseling training, it ended upbeing more of a like, this is
what I need for me in thismoment.
And you were wrestling with yourown stuff and working on
healing.
And then is it fair to say thatthe second time that you took
it, you were much more in aplace of healing and ready to be

(04:47):
the helper?

SPEAKER_02 (04:48):
Yes, definitely.
You summed that up very well.

SPEAKER_00 (04:52):
So in that journey, right, part of it was you
couldn't find what you needed.
And I'm assuming, and maybe Ishouldn't assume, say you tell
me, were you in a church at thatpoint in time?
And what was the structure ofthat church?
Did they have people on staff orin the church that could walk
with you in that suffering?

SPEAKER_02 (05:13):
I had a good community group and our church
had a recovery type ministry,but we didn't have biblical
counselors.
And I didn't have someone Itrusted to tell some of the
harder parts of my story.
Because as I suffered, I wasgoing through different trials
as an adult, things fromchildhood would come up, and I

(05:35):
was wrestling with all of italtogether.
And I felt like I was drowning.
So I really didn't probably justdidn't even try to reach out or
tell that part of the story.

SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
Would it have been helpful for you if they had had
a good biblical counselor?
And again, I'm separating outthe biblical counseling that
we're scared of and the actualgood stuff.
And so if they'd had the actualgood stuff, do you think that
you would have leaned in andbeen vulnerable with that
individual?

(06:06):
Or do you think you still wouldhave been anxious about it and
maybe not?

SPEAKER_02 (06:10):
No, I think I would have been vulnerable.
And I did reach out to therecovery ministry and I was part
of the leadership of a recoveryministry of our church.
And through the leadershiptraining, I got close to a
couple of individuals who helpedme process the pain biblically.
And which was a step in myjourney.

(06:33):
So I do know it's possible tohave good biblical counseling.

SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
Yeah.
What scares you about biblicalcounseling as a general whole?
Not maybe your own biblicalcounseling or what you
experienced with really helpfulpeople that did come alongside
you.
But as you look out over thelandscape of biblical
counseling, what do you see thatconcerns you?

SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
This one might even make me very emotional because I
see hundreds of women across thecountry and I hold their stories
and I hear about poor biblicalcounseling.
And it does make me veryemotional.
So what scares me is that peopleturn away from God.
What scares me is that peopleare harmed and per heart,

(07:23):
burdens are placed on people whoare already struggling.

SPEAKER_00 (07:30):
I would agree with you on that.
You know, I think this is whatas a licensed counselor I see
when I take someone on that hashad really awful biblical
counseling, that it was allabout sin detection, not the sin
done to them, but whatever theyare perceived to have done
themselves.
And it's very much take twoverses and call me in the

(07:52):
morning.
And with regard to abuse, it isabsolutely terrifying because
they're often told, as ourfriend Joey Forrest puts it,
stay, pray, obey, and lay.
Right.
So you just need to work harderand have more sex.
And then your destructive spousewill no longer be destructive.
You're clearly doing somethingwrong instead of actually

(08:13):
looking at it like the Biblelooks at it.
And then that causes huge harm.

SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
I totally agree with you.
I think that a lot of thebiblical counselors I know have
great intentions, and I wouldn'tclassify them as harmful.
But interacting with victims orw women looking for counseling,
I think it sounds like thecounselors have intentions.
They want to honor God, theywant people to be healed, and

(08:43):
yet they feel like the way theydo that is to make sure this
person understands the rules,you know, that you need to obey,
which is true, we're not sayingthat, but they don't see them as
a person who's hurting and who'swounded and needs to heal.

(09:04):
That they have spiritual issues,they're having physical trauma,

(10:42):
I mean, experiences of trauma,which I know some biblical
counselors don't really relatethe two emotional and physical
symptoms of trauma.
I think that does a greatdisservice absolutely to people
who are reaching out for help.

SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
Yeah.
Well, and all emotional abuse isphysical abuse because unless
you can take your brain out ofyour head and stick it in a jar,
the last time I checked, it wasa body part that caused
physiological ramifications.
And that is part of the traumastory.
What made you interested inbecoming trauma-informed?

SPEAKER_02 (11:21):
I think as a biblical counselor, when I was
counseling, it was meeting withreal people and watching them
suffer and struggle, and theyhave questions of they wrestle
with God.
And there were times that in thecounseling room, I just knew I
needed more skills to help them,to draw them in close, because

(11:44):
they couldn't hear God's loveand compassion for them if their
body is in fight mode or flightmode, and that I needed to learn
how to help them have open theirears to hear God's love and
comfort for them.
Because there was a woman, Iremember her having an anxiety

(12:05):
attack in the room, and I didnot know how to help her.
And I was praying and prayingfor her, and when she left, I
just thought, I have got tobecome more skilled at this.
I have to care for the wholeperson.
I cannot just again read ascripture and pray, that is

(12:25):
good, but she couldn't hear me.
She was breathing hard.
I thought, is this woman gonnapass away in front of my eyes?
And so it's a triage situation.
I need to care for her as aperson.

SPEAKER_00 (12:38):
Absolutely.
I think sometimes biblicalcounselors as a whole, again,
not you because you do not suck,but some biblical counselors
look at it as if you justbelieved the right things and
fill in the blank with right is,it's according to their
theology, which might not bescriptural, you know, that if
you just believe the rightthings, then you're just gonna
be fine.

(12:58):
Everything's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_02 (13:00):
And it's very logical, right?
Like logically, if I just tellyou these things, you should be
okay.

SPEAKER_00 (13:07):
Right.
And as a trauma therapist, I cantell you if I could have talked
our way out of trauma, right?
We would have already done it.
And so that's where talk therapyand theology induction, I don't
know what you would call it, butjust forcing theology on
someone.
Well, just you don't believeenough in God and you're not
trusting enough and you're notfilling the blank.

(13:28):
And have you tried fasting andwhatever falls really short
because the problem isn't intheir mind, although what we
believe matters, it very muchmatters.
But if trauma is held in thebody, then we do have to help
people start there, or we can'tget to the head.

SPEAKER_02 (13:46):
It was really helpful during one part of my
story is that God gave meanxiety.
I remember I was in a grocerystore and being in a position
where my body did take over, andI collapsed to the floor in the
freezer section of Walmart, andI was praying, God, please don't
let me die on the floor ofWalmart.

(14:09):
And so I believe he allowed meto experience that.
One, that was part of my ownstory, right?
I needed help with that.
But secondly, to have compassionthat something is happening that
you cannot stop.
There was no amount of, I mean,I did have a quick prayer to
God, but there was no amount ofsomeone coming up to me in that

(14:29):
moment saying, Hey, you know,get up off the floor.
You know, don't you trust God?
Uh so I was praying no one wouldcome down the aisle, an
ambulance wouldn't come.
And the Lord was gracious to meand helping me calm down.
But that's an experience, and ithappened in different ways at
different times, but the Lorddoes allow us to experience

(14:54):
that.

SPEAKER_00 (14:54):
Right.
And it's our very good bodiescreated by him that are trying
to tell us something in thosemoments.
Something isn't okay.
There is a weight that is tooheavy for you to bear alone, or
there is something that needsyour attention because our
bodies are gonna signal when ournervous systems don't feel safe.
And that's not just some tritescience or secular thinking.

(15:20):
That is looking at how we arefearfully and wonderfully made,
right?
Every biblical counselor I knowwill absolutely use that verse
and say it and mean it and thennot think about the implications
of it.
Obviously, all the ones that Iknow don't suck, and so not you,
but they really don't lookforward into like, if this is

(15:40):
true, if we're fearfully andwonderfully made, and our bodies
are made by a good and lovingGod who is trying to tell us
something, let them speak to us,then why wouldn't we pay
attention to what's happening inour bodies and what's happening
in our soul when anxiety doesovertake us and our body is just
gonna nope us out in the freezeraisle of Walmart?

SPEAKER_02 (16:03):
Yes.
I think after that, I've beenreally interested in looking
scripturally for how God doestake care of our bodies and our
souls.
You know, I think it's inThessalonians, he talks about
sanctifying our soul and ourbody.
And Jesus obviously cared abouthealing the body and the soul.

(16:26):
I mean, he was very in tune withthe physical body, encouraging
rest and health and caring forpeople who physically couldn't
walk, couldn't see anxiety, thewoman who was bleeding for a
long for I think 12 years,touched his robe, right?
He had so much compassion whenhe turned to her.

(16:47):
He's like, he didn't just saylogically, would you stand up
and tell me what you want?
He had so much compassion andsaid, daughter, you know, who
touched me?
Yeah.

unknown (16:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (17:00):
So much compassion.

SPEAKER_00 (17:01):
So much.
And if it were only about oursouls, and it is, I mean, our
souls for sure matter, but if itwere only about that, he
wouldn't heal a physical body.
He would say, repent from yoursins and continue laying on your
mat, things will get better inheaven.
And he did not do that, youknow, he healed people, he
touched people, he is comingback in a physical body.

(17:24):
And I feel like when I look atsome of the way that biblical
counseling divorces our wholeself from our mind, I think, in
terms of it is an unintentional,or maybe even for some
intentional Gnostic heresy,because that's the essence of
Gnosticism.
And so I look at that and I'mlike, I don't think you want to

(17:46):
say it that way.
You might want to think thatthrough.

SPEAKER_02 (17:51):
No, that's a really good point, is that was
considered heresy at one time,and yet we have a version of
that.
Like biblical counselors who maysay mental health or brain
disorders aren't real orphysical symptoms aren't real,
it is a very Gnostic viewpointthat only our spirit is what
matters.
But as you said, Jesus has abody, he still has a body, he's

(18:13):
actually in heaven in a physicalbody.
I think sometimes we don'trealize that, right?

SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
And he talks about indwelling us, right?
We've become the temple of theHoly Spirit through the
indwelling of the spirit.
Once we are part of the familyof God, we've been grafted in,
which is physical language,incidentally.
And we can't not be embodiedhumans, it doesn't work that
way.
And when we try to separate outour embodiment, our fullest

(18:45):
self, and just say, no, thinkyourself into something
different, that isn't ever goingto be super effective.

SPEAKER_02 (18:54):
No, and it wasn't meant to.
Again, scripturally speaking,throughout the Bible, it's care
for the physical body as well asthe soul and the mind, right?
Like renew your mind.
It's so it's your body, soul,and mind that he cares about
right, it's our whole self.

SPEAKER_00 (19:16):
And I think when biblical counseling gets off
track with that, maybe becauseit's more comfortable.
I know that biblical counselingstarted as a way to make sure
that we were involving scripturein the care of humans.
And somewhere along the way, itgot a bit siloed, if you will,

(19:39):
into a different space where itthen really became an us against
them kind of space.
So if you have secular training,there is a sect of biblical
counseling that if you have anykind of secular training at all,
then you are consideredessentially apostate.
They've said some other words Iwon't say, but they definitely
do not consider you terriblyholy, which is hysterical to me

(20:01):
since that's not the measure ofholiness.
But I think that it createsunnecessary division and it
creates a lack of growth forbiblical counselors to put their
feet where you have, whereyou're looking at it from a
whole person perspective andable to be Nate Brooks would
call it clinically informed.

(20:22):
So Nate Brooks is a professor ata seminary and he has done a lot
of writing on these types ofthings.
And so he would call itclinically informed biblical
counseling.
That's hard to say.
How would you categorize it?

SPEAKER_02 (20:35):
I guess I would say clinically informed, but just
holistic.
I mean, how I refer to myselfbecause I don't really know how
to refer to myself sometimes.
But I think clinically informed,trauma-informed, I think we're
just saying I have compassion onthe whole person of someone.

(20:55):
And so I do think it's importantthat biblical counselors, and
that's what I hoped happens,even through this podcast.
Any biblical counselor that'slistening would consider getting
training and skills, right, thatencourage growth.
We're to encourage one another,right?
We are we are all about how tominister to people.

(21:17):
And so I would love it ifbiblical counselors would
consider getting more skills andtraining, because I hate to keep
using secular because I don'treally see you as a secular
counselor.
You are a licensed counselor,but you have great faith and
you're a very godly woman.
And so I don't, I guess I have ahard time with those words, the

(21:40):
secular counselor.

SPEAKER_00 (21:42):
Yeah, I think it's because I'm licensed and trained
in things that are not comingdirectly out of a church, right?
So I'm certified an EMDR and acertified sex addiction
therapist and all kinds of goodstuff.
We joke about me being alphabetsoup because there's a lot of
letters after my name.
But I think it has gottenconflated with faith, right?

(22:08):
That if you go and get trainingfrom an organization that isn't
a church or in some cases notthe right kind of church, it
just depends on who you'retalking to and what they think
the right kind of church mightbe, then you clearly don't love
the Lord.
And that's not a true statement,actually.
I think that those of us who gettraining in different spaces,

(22:29):
it's not that we don't love theLord, it's that we love people
and we want to be able to helpthem walk into healing in the
way that Jesus would have them,which is gonna be meeting people
in the dirt, right?
That's how he was and is andstill is.
And so I think that's animportant thing.
Yes, absolutely.

(22:49):
Right.
So Luke was a physician.
I think about that often.
That would not have beentraining in a synagogue, right?
I don't think, I mean, maybethere was, I don't know what
synagogues did back in the day,but I don't know that it was
there.
And Luke was still an apostleand he still wrote one of the
gospels and it was a researcher.

(23:10):
I have searched to make sure ofthese things.
Like, you know, he's writing towhat is it, most excellent
Theophilus, with all of the datathat he has gotten.
So I feel like where we get ourtraining is less important than
do we want to love like Jesusand get with people in dark
spaces and sit with them andlove them well in those spaces.

SPEAKER_02 (23:34):
And we have that biblical point of view.
I think that is the beauty ofbiblical counseling, is applying
it to life, right?
I totally believe that scriptureis sufficient.
I mean, some might tell me thatI don't, but I know what I
believe that scripture issufficient, but I don't think
it's exhaustive in a way that itgives us all the information.

(23:58):
The Bible wasn't meant to answersome questions that we have
about this life.
And so we do look to commongrace and research and science,
even to fill in some of thedetails that are helpful to us.

SPEAKER_00 (24:14):
Yeah.
I would encourage folks who aremaybe listening to this and
going, wait, what?
A little bit, that they wouldthink about common grace a bit
more deeply.
Because there are some placesthat, as the overall Christian
church, the big C church, we'reokay with common grace, like an
MRI or a cardiology exam or astress test or things like that.

(24:37):
But we are not okay with commongrace when it comes to EMDR or
brain spotting or somaticexperiencing or some of those
other things that are trulybased on observational research,
what helps people.

SPEAKER_02 (24:53):
I cannot agree more.
That's one of the things I thinkI love about our partnership and
friendship professionally andthrough ministry, that we've had
an opportunity to connecttogether and work on cases
together, that I can see thebenefit.
I think it really again helpedopen my eyes to how much I could

(25:16):
learn from quote, like secularsources, which just means common
grace, common grace sources thatcould help me.
And it, I think our partnershiphelped the people we serve too.
Absolutely.
So we need to bring differentelements to that.

SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
So absolutely.
And I think that's a it's aninteresting thing, right?
And and like all things, youshould test stuff and make sure
that it is biblically sound.
So there are things that somecreators of some therapeutic
methods would believe that Iwould not agree with.
I personally would not believethem.
You know, I am not Buddhist, andsome of the theorizers of

(25:55):
various techniques are.

SPEAKER_02 (28:07):
It is, it's amazing.
You know, I think when I wasgrowing up, we would look into
space and see amazing thingswith telescopes and satellites,
and it is amazing and it stillamazes me.
And yet there's more thingswe're learning all the time
through science.
We don't have to be scared ofscience, we don't have to worry

(28:30):
that it doesn't display Godbecause it does.
Now, there are people who mightinterpret the findings in a way
that they want the believers andunbelievers to interpret things
differently, but I see it as theglory of God.
And the training at the EamonClinic has been that is like
wow, the brain is amazing thatwe can know that information and

(28:52):
we can use it to help people andminister to people.

SPEAKER_00 (28:56):
Absolutely.
We see the example of theministry of presence with Jesus
and with the apostles when theywould sit with people.
And I feel like that's a lot ofwhat counseling is.
Both licensed counseling andbiblical counseling share that
in common of the first andforemost skill that we have is

(29:17):
to just be with, and to be within a way that is non-judgmental
and non-performative, I think isthe word I want to use.
Where we don't expect the personto do a thing, like they don't
have to perform in some way tobe worthy of being with.

SPEAKER_02 (29:41):
That is a gift because I think most of the
people I sit with, they areeager to want to obey when I say
want to obey, like to honor God.
They want to honor God withtheir life.
And I just think we're callingthem into a place that it's not
performative, like you'resaying.

(30:02):
It's not, here's all the thingsyou need to do to God for him to
accept you.
Here's where you're failing.
So shape up, you know, get it inline that God cares about their
person, where they're atspiritually, the questions they
have, the suffering they'veendured.
We have a God who says hecollects our tears on a bottle.

(30:24):
That is not a God like, hey,well, get out and run some more,
you know.
Don't you know we have a race torun?
So get out there and do it.
I know that we do, in a sense,have a race to run, but that
doesn't mean with compassion andcare.
You have to be careful aboutyour analogies and what, and

(30:45):
does that actually represent thecharacter of God when we take an
analogy and use it in a waythat's harmful to people?

SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
Right.
I know the story of Elijah comesto mind, and I had heard it
languaged about how his faithhad faltered after all of the
prophets of Baal had beenincinerated, and then he ran
from Jezebel because he wasafraid, and how, oh, that was
just a lack of faith and allthis other stuff.
No, look at how God treated him.

(31:14):
And what God did was tell him totake a nap and have a snack,
right?
And then after he was rested andrefreshed, then God came to him
in that still small voice andsaid, Hey, you're not alone.
There's still more that are mypeople.
You're not by yourself.
I know it feels that way.
He wasn't punitive toward him,he wasn't angry, it wasn't any

(31:39):
of those things.
It wasn't like Elijah.
Did you not see all themiracles?
Like, duh.
It was nothing like that.
It was, I fed you, I let yourest, I took care of you and
sheltered you.
And I want you to see the biggerpicture, and it's gonna be okay.
And that is such a differentpicture than I think sometimes
biblical counseling inparticular, and sometimes just

(32:00):
the church in general.
Language is God, right?
Yes, there is the holinessaspect, but it's not our
creation, it's his, and he'sresponsible for us and for.
Changing us from glory to gloryto be like him.
That's not work I have to do.
I just get to like abide, whichmeans hang out and rest in him.

(32:21):
And yes, there are things I haveto do, like I get to make
choices and all those otherthings.
But first and foremost, he meetsme where I am.
It is his kindness that bringsme to repentance.

SPEAKER_02 (32:33):
Such a good word.
Such a good word.
That truly is to me a life thathonors God is recognizing our
human limitations, that we arelimited people.
I cannot possibly expect thatI'm going to, like Elijah was
afraid, I'm going to be afraid.

(32:54):
I don't see that as a sin on hispart either.
And if you look at all of thebiblical characters on displays,
you see their human limitationsand God's compassion.
God's compassion for that.
And he's not surprised by humanlimitations.
He's like, you're right.
You're right.
You have to depend on me.
You have to have time to rest.

(33:16):
You have to recognize you can'tdo it on your own.
We need community.

SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
And even Paul, there's a point,I think it might be in the book
of Acts, where he said, I fearedfor my very life.
Like they were basically prayingfor death is where they were at.
And because things were superscary.
And you never hear God go, What?
And all of those sermons on donot fear, it's not a punitive
God.
It is the same as a parent'sheart that says, you know, in a

(33:43):
Texas thunderstorm, bless ourhearts, boy, do we have a few.
That would say, it's gonna beokay.
Don't fear, I'm here with you.
Yeah.
Right?
And it's not an admonition somuch as an invitation.

SPEAKER_02 (33:58):
I like the way you phrase that.
It is an invitation.
Just like when Jesus invitedPeter out of the boat, it was an
invitation.
He's like, Peter, you can dothis.
Keep your eyes on me.
You can do this.

SPEAKER_00 (34:16):
And what an interesting thing for Peter to
ask, also, if it's you, tell meto come out on the water and
join you.
I think about that, andeverybody talks about Peter
being impulsive, and he was liketruthfully.
He struggled.
But that impulse in some wayswith the Lord was, I want to be

(34:36):
near you.
Like, holy cow, this is crazyand cool.
I don't know if I would havebeen bold enough to ask Jesus to
tell me to come out on thewater.
The other apostles surely werenot.
They did not ask that question.
And Peter got to have anexperience that no other living
person has ever had.
Like when we get to heaven, Iwant to ask him about that.
I've heard people say, Oh, Iwant to ask him about what it

(34:59):
was like to betray God orwhatever.
Like I want to be like, what wasit like to walk on water, even
if just for a second?
What was that like?
And then to have Jesus take youby the hand and not say, Well,
this is what you get, right?
Which sometimes we put that onJesus because of our own broken
families.
That he said, Come on out, andyou should have kept your eyes

(35:22):
on me.
That would have been helpful,right?
But like he invited him out ontothat water.
He didn't just say, How dare youask?
Which is a God of incredible funand delight, also.

SPEAKER_02 (35:34):
Mm-hmm.
That he recognizes the courageand the bravery, right?
The sea is often a depiction ofchaos and evil.
So for Peter to walk out intothat, he was walking into the
chaos.
And so it's interesting that youeven said that you wish you were
brave as Peter, because I do seeyou as being that brave, that

(35:55):
God has invited you into thesespaces, right?
Of chaos and uncertainty anddarkness, and like we said, the
dirt and you, I see you walkingstep by step in that.

SPEAKER_00 (36:06):
Sometimes I think, like everybody else.
Yes, but we all do.
I think as we really interactwith scripture in a non-punitive
manner, and I don't think eitherof us is saying that judgment
doesn't occur and there isn'tdiscipline.
Right.
Those are different matters, andthere's so many layers and

(36:29):
nuance to scripture, to thegospel, and it's almost
impossible in some ways to not.
There's just no way to have allthat nuance in there because
it's so layered and beautiful.
But when we look at it primarilyas a checklist of things that we
have to do or don't do, then wemiss out on the relationship.

(36:53):
And that is the most importantthing.
It is for the relationship thatJesus came and died for us.
He could have just wiped us outand started over if he wanted
to.
And that's not what he checked.
He said, I want you, wantrelationship with you, and I'm
willing to sacrifice it all sowe never have to be apart.
That is incredible.

SPEAKER_02 (37:14):
It is, and we're left here with a purpose and a
goal, right?
To glorify him.
And the way we do that is how wecare.
We care for each other, that wewalk with each other, we
encourage each other, all theone another's of scripture,
right?
Um to me, I think that carryingeach other's burdens, which is

(37:34):
again physical, spiritual, andemotional, isn't just an
intellectual exercise.
That is what God asks us to dobecause that's what sanctifies
us.
That is what's preparing us forheaven.

SPEAKER_00 (37:51):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, it says in,I'm pretty sure it's first John.
I could be wrong on the address,but it's in one of the Johns,
not the Gospel of John, but theother Johns.
It's in one of them, firstsecond or third.
And it says that they will knowthat we're gods because of our

(38:11):
love for one another.
And that is the benchmark.

SPEAKER_02 (38:18):
Yeah, this is how we show that we are of Christ, is
our love for one another, thatwe lay down our lives for each
other.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (38:28):
What would you say to the biblical counselor that
says, but Jackie, Tabitha, I amshowing love by calling this
person on the carpet for theirsin and showing them where
they're sinful.
How would you respond to that?

SPEAKER_03 (38:43):
Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (38:44):
It would be a conversation for sure.
That I would gently ask thisperson, do they know and
understand the story of theperson in front of them?
We are also called to havespeech seasoned with grace.
There is a time that you tellsomeone hard truth, and here's

(39:04):
an area of growth for you,right?
Like, I do think it would beimportant that you consider and
you obey this.
And that is important.
That's an important wall.
But have you heard this person'sstory?
Can you, without a doubt,understand their lived
experience, what they've gonethrough, how they got here in

(39:25):
this situation, that they knowthe love of Christ before you
seek to admonish them or whipthem with the Bible, which we
should never whip people withthe Bible, ever, ever.
But that's what I would say isjust that it's so much more than

(39:46):
a behavior change, or I want youin harshness.
To me, I feel like that's can bevery harsh when you're just
telling people, okay, you needto do this, this, and this to be
right with God.
It misses the heart of what Godwants to do, the heart work of
transformation and trusting himand loving him.

(40:08):
And we cannot really obey, wecannot really understand that
concept until we know of hislove for us, that he cares about
what I'm going through, what Iwent through, how I got here.
He cares, he knows.

SPEAKER_00 (40:25):
There are three counseling adages I live by,
generally speaking, with people.
The first one is what makes thismake sense?
What makes this make sense?
Because people don't do thingswithout there being a purpose.
It might not be the best choice.
They may be making a choicebased on the skills that they
have or the brokenness or thetrauma they've been through.

(40:47):
But the choice makes sense ifyou understand it.
And you can help people makedifferent choices.
The other question I like to askis what makes you you?
What makes you you, this uniqueperson in front of me?
There may be things Iunderstand, there may be
similarities from my own story,but you're not me.
And you're not the last person Isat in front of.

(41:08):
What makes you you?
And then the other piece is whodo you want to become?
Who do you want to become?
What is the kind of person thatyou hope to be?
Because most people do not comeout of the womb thinking, I
would really like to be wicked.
This sounds like a lot of fun.

(41:28):
But they come out with all ofthese hopes, wanting belonging,
wanting all of the things thatimage bearers of God want.
And there are circumstances thathappen that make it harder to be
that person.
And so when they're sitting infront of us, I want to know who
do they want to be?
It's very much like when Jesusasked the person, Do you want to

(41:49):
be well?
And it wasn't an ugly remark, itwasn't confrontational, it was
invitational.
And the person said, Yes.
And that is the essence of it.
Who do you want to be?
Do you want to be a good mother,a good sister, a good father, a

(42:11):
good brother?
Do you want to be someone thatsomeone calls good?
What does that look like?
And understanding their world.
One of the things I think aboutoften is understanding precedes
change.
I cannot help you change if I donot know who you are.
And I can't come in with taketwo verses and call me in the

(42:31):
morning in some theologicalframework that's just gonna be
slapped upon everybody in thesame exact way and be meeting
the unique person in front of mewell.

SPEAKER_02 (42:45):
That makes me think about the people who come into
counseling with us, right?
They're not hard-hearted.
If they were, they wouldn't cometo counseling.
They'd be like, I'm doing it myway, you know, James Ford, I
want what I want when I want it.
And most of the people that comein are looking for a chance to
be someone they want to be.
Yeah, they don't know how to getthere.

(43:07):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (43:08):
I will say there's you to hear me and see me,
right?
Right.
There's one exception that ispotentially destructive men or
destructive people in general.
Yes.
That might be a little bitdifferent.
We're not talking about them inthis moment.
That's a whole other podcast.
But generally speaking, truly,when people come sit in front of
us, they are saying, I've triedeverything and I don't know what

(43:29):
to do next.
Can you help me?
Can you see something I don'tsee?
Yeah.
You said that you wish thatbiblical counselors had more
education, particularly in wholeperson care, a holistic model.

(43:49):
I know that's something that weoffer people and that you can
offer people as a biblicalcounselor supervisor as well.
What would you say?
If I'm a Sally biblicalcounselor and I'm hearing this,
I'm going, whoa, there are somethings I don't know.
There's some things in mytraining that were great, but
areas I definitely want toexpand on.

(44:10):
They're having those momentslike you did with a client who
has a panic attack and doesn'tknow what to do.
What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_02 (44:19):
I would say consider where to get more training, you
know, and if they want to talkto us of the journey in the
process, I know we're more thanwilling to help guide them
towards resources that could behelpful.
I would say pray about it andthink about the cases that
you're seeing, the people you'reseeing, and reach out for more

(44:43):
training.
Again, I think of the resourcesthat the journey in the process
has that just of knowing wheregood care is, of taking the time
to find all of that.
I would agree.

SPEAKER_00 (44:56):
I would definitely agree.
I would agree that we aredefinitely happy to help and put
groups together of biblicalcounselors that want to learn
more about holistic person careand how to enter in differently
than maybe they've been taughtin the past.
And I'd also say that it's not abad thing to admit you don't
know things.

(45:17):
I think sometimes, especiallywhen scripture is sufficient,
has been drilled into your headwithout the other part of it
doesn't mean it's completelyexhaustive for literally
everything on earth.
That you can feel like I'msupposed to know, I should, and
you should on yourself.
And then you feel stuck, andthen you just try harder and you
double down on things that don'twork, and then you feel like

(45:37):
you're frustrated in yourpractice with others.
And that's really hard.
And you don't have to staythere, you don't have to be in
that place.
And we should all be lifelonglearners.
I think we have the benefit ofdoing abuse work, which I say
that as if it's the most normalthing on the planet because to
us it is.
That's just what it is a lot of.
But if you've seen one case ofabuse, you've seen one case of

(46:01):
abuse.
So I think we are aware justbecause of the nature of deep
trauma work that we do withpeople, that we need to be
lifelong learners, that we needto operate in teams, we need to
consult with others about casesin healthy and
confidentiality-honoring ways,so that we are always looking at

(46:22):
it with our best set of eyes andalways seeking wisdom from the
Lord in what we do.
Because I think we are aware insome ways, maybe differently
than others, of how high thestakes are for us.
And so I would just encourageall of the folks listening who
are counselors, whether you're alicensed counselor or a biblical
counselor, to know that it isalways wise to get consultation

(46:48):
and to know that you don't knowit all and you don't have to
know it all.
That is where consultation comesin so clutch.
That is where you're asking Godfor wisdom comes in so clutch is
Lord, bring me to the resourcesthat can help me understand this
thing a little bit better or alittle bit more deeply.
Or are there places in my ownstory that this is stepping on?

(47:09):
And now there's like a whole lotof feelings here.
The clinical word iscounter-transference, that I
need to deal with my stuff so Ican help you deal with yours
because I should not becounter-transferring my stuff
onto you.
That does not help.
And so that knowing thatsometimes we all need a little
support is just wisdom.
It's just wisdom and necessary.

(47:30):
I am gonna pivot us just a hairbecause I want to know what it
is like for you, because webrought you into a practice full
of licensed therapists, whichwas very intentional on my part.
I really thought it was wise.
You know, I look out at thelandscape.
I don't do siloing, I find itobnoxious personally.
We are all going to live inheaven together and we should

(47:52):
all get along.
That is my premise of most oflife, to be honest.
And I do believe that peoplewill know us by our love for one
another.
And so I intend to love well andbig.
And so I love biblicalcounseling and coaching and
whatnot.
And the ones that are good anddo not suck, like Jackie.
So I remember praying about, Ireally think we need to add this

(48:13):
to the practice.
I think there is such beautythere, and just asking the Lord
to show me who and it was likeimmediate.
He was like, Jackie.
And I was like, Well, yes.
And it took about a year, ittook a while for us to bring you
on because you had to workthrough it.
I had to work through it.
The Lord had to make all thepieces fall in place correctly.

(48:33):
But what was it like for you asa biblical counselor joining a
practice full of licensedcounselors?
Scary, super scary.

SPEAKER_02 (48:44):
And an act of faith.
So it was exciting and scary.
This was something I don't knowthat anybody else.
I don't know of anybody who'shad this kind of partnership
that we have.
I was excited to learn.
I am still excited to learn.
I am a lifelong learner, butthis is scary.
I felt like to some degree, am Icrossing the Rubicon?

(49:07):
Am I going into a land ofcompromise?
Am I going into the land that Icannot return?
Is this harmful to the people Iserve and want to minister to?
Is this a lack of trust, a faithin God?
And what God has shown me, and Idid a lot of praying as well,

(49:28):
moving into this space with you,is God has really blown my mind
with his care.
And I was worried I wouldn't beable to minister in the same
way.
And not only do I feel I feellike I can minister in the same

(49:49):
way because you graciously like,well, you're a biblical
counselor.
You can counsel biblically, it'sokay.
This is who you are.
But I recognize the reach I havebeen honored to have with other
people who are hurting who areon the fringe of church, who
maybe have felt like theycouldn't go back to church.
I've ministered to women who andstill do, women who are part of

(50:12):
cults and twisted scripture.
There's so much of the churchout there that needs help.
And so by joining with you, Ifeel in the world of licensed
counseling and becoming moreskilled, it allows people to
feel like I'm safe enough tocome too.
And I know that that might soundstrange to my biblical

(50:33):
counseling friends, but whatthat means is they want God,
they want biblical counseling,they want their spiritual life
restored and reconnected.
They want to ask hard questionsand they want to be able to
wrestle with this, with someonewho has strong faith.
I've been through a similarjourney with God and they feel

(50:57):
okay about coming to me becauseI am trauma-informed and I have
these skills.
So I'm not gonna let them jumpoff a cliff or feel like, you
know, emotionally harm them.
They're so careful because somuch scripture has been used
against them and they're comingto me saying, Can you help me

(51:18):
work through this?
And so to me, it has been atremendous opportunity to
actually be the body of Christto those who are on the fringe.

SPEAKER_00 (51:28):
Yeah, I definitely get that sense.
And I know the risk it was forboth of us to enter into this
place and to bring you into thepractice because I know for a
lot of our survivors that wework with, they have been deeply
harmed by the church.
And they have been deeply harmedin some cases by biblical
counselors.
So that I would align myselfwith any of the biblical

(51:50):
counseling movement, I thinksometimes can feel a little bit
scary.
But that's also why I literallyrefer to you as the biblical
counselor that does not suck onpurpose because it is important,
I think, that people have thetools that they need.
They have the person that theyneed, right?
There are people that are goingto need someone who is a

(52:11):
biblical counselor to walk withthem because that is important
to them.
There are elements of that thatthey want.
And there are people that needlicensed counselors that can do
things like EMDR or somaticexperiencing or internal family
systems work or whatever,whatever it is that we need to
do.
And together we can actuallyprovide more of that whole

(52:34):
person care than we can byourselves.
And I think that is such a giftand one that I would hope that
other biblical and licensedcounselors would look at
together and say, there is anaspect here that we can really
be such a good team.
And I've partnered with otherbiblical counselors that also do

(52:55):
not suck with cases and thingslike that.
And I have seen it benefit ourclients so much, where they're
getting the biblical piece, somediscipleship, untwisting those
scriptures and also getting thedeep trauma care that they need
from the reprocessing spaces andsome of those things that I can

(53:18):
do as a licensed clinician, or Ican go to court with them, or
things like that that they need.
And also they need that deepdiscipleship and the biblical
piece of it, and they want towrestle through their faith.
And they want someone who's nottake two verses and call me in
the morning.
And so it is to some on theoutside risky, but has been the

(53:39):
biggest gift for the last yearand has been something I have
seen not only grow me, grow you,but also grow the rest of our
team in leaning into how do wetake this holistic approach and
really bring life and goodnessand God's love to the church so

(54:00):
that people can be healthy andbe in the context that God has
them in, right?
God has a plan for all of us,right?
It's what he says.
And so when we can be ourhealthiest selves and we can
heal and then we get to go andbe amazing.
And not only are we amazing, butthen our families are amazing,
right?
It's a ripple effect becausewhen one person changes, they

(54:21):
change their own system and thentheir system gets healthier, and
that changes the lives of theirchildren.
Like, I don't think we canunderestimate how really caring
well for others impacts theworld as a whole in healthy,
beautiful ways.

SPEAKER_02 (54:38):
It does.
I've heard so many stories ofhow women are interacting
differently with their familiesand their children, and they're
just on fire for the Lord again,and in their communities and
stepping back into church.
Some of them are stepping backinto church.
It depends on you know wherethey're at, and if they have a

(54:59):
church that feels supportive andsafe.
The church does need to be thesafest place on earth, as Chris
Mules would say.

SPEAKER_00 (55:07):
Absolutely.
I believe that's the way Jesusintended it, to be honest.
Yeah.
And I will also say, I have seenwhen a destructive man truly
starts to repent, having goodcare around all of the parties
involved is vital.
And there are some cases I amthinking about, there have been
several, where we will have anexcellent counselor for the

(55:32):
perpetrator.
We'll have accountability forthe perpetrator in the form of
like a men of peace group, andthen an excellent counselor for
the victim and an excellentadvocate for the victim.
And all of those thingstogether, very often, this is a
combination of biblicalcounselors and licensed
counselors working together.

(55:53):
That's where I've seen it work.
And you see things change, evenif their relationship isn't
salvageable because too muchdamage has been done.
We see people change and repentand families impacted in
beautiful ways.
And that to me, if you can getout of the shade of some of the

(56:13):
slinging that happens in some ofthe mudslinging in some of the
biblical counseling circles, andgo, what do we actually see that
looks like Jesus?
That's it.
That's it to me.
And so I don't care if you likewhere EMDR might have come from.
I can tell you it's effective.
I can tell you it works.
I can tell you it'sneuroscience.

(56:33):
And yeah, the mudslinging of allbiblical counselors are just
sucky and they don't knowanything about trauma and go,
well, I actually know a few thatknow some really good stuff.
I hired one of them, you know,and she's very trauma-informed
and she doesn't spirituallybypass people.
And if we look at it through theeyes of Christ, what might it
look like in the church if weactually walked in love with one

(56:56):
another?

SPEAKER_02 (56:59):
That is so powerful, even hearing you say that.
What could it look like?

SPEAKER_00 (57:07):
I think there could only be goodness.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (57:13):
Yeah.
That's what I want.
That's what I think you and Iboth want is to be the church.
We want to work together, bewhole healed as the body of
Christ, work together.
Absolutely.
And appreciate each other,right?
Appreciate what each of us canbring.

(57:34):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (57:35):
They know that we are gods by the way that we love
one another.

SPEAKER_02 (57:39):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (57:41):
And I think I hope that that's what hallmarks my
life and yours, you know, is weloved well, we cared well, we
weren't afraid to go into thedark places with people in the
context that God has us in.
Because we all have, and there'sa need for all of us.
There's never gonna until Jesuscomes back, there's not going to

(58:01):
be a lack of people that needsupport and care, right?
And if we were all to be a teamin how do we love well, how do
we help people heal well?
How do we evidence God's love tothem well, we might see a lot
more health in the church as awhole, and a lot more people do
less destructive things.

SPEAKER_02 (58:24):
And that's what we're called to do.
That's what we're called to do.
Yeah.
Would you mind if I sharedsomething out of Ezekiel that I
was reading this morning thatencouraged me?
Would you mind?
Love it.
Do it.

SPEAKER_00 (58:39):
If a biblical counselor doesn't read the
Bible, like is that even athing?

SPEAKER_02 (58:44):
It it is, it shouldn't be.
This really struck me, Ezekiel34.
It's the word of the Lord to theshepherds of Israel.
Now, I know I'm not a shepherdof Israel, but as leaders, as
people helpers in the church,people look to us.
This is God's word to theleaders, and this is something I

(59:06):
take very seriously.
It says, the weak you have notstrengthened, the sick you have
not healed, the injured you havenot bound up, the strayed you
have not brought back, the lostyou have not sought, and with
force and harshness you haveruled them.

(59:28):
I don't even know if I can sayit without a tear in my eye.
That I want to be the oppositeof that.

unknown (59:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (59:35):
That is physical, emotional, and spiritual
healing.
And the straight you have notbrought back.
I want to be a counselor.
And I think all biblicalcounselors would want that.

SPEAKER_00 (59:52):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And it's not brought back intosubjection or the church, it's
brought back to relationshipwith the true and living God who
it doesn't want you wanderingout in desolate spaces by
yourself because you werecreated for community.
And so it's not that a biblicalcounselor, a good one, would

(01:00:15):
want to bring someone back intoa broken system.
It's that they want to bringthem back and return them to
health and to safety and to thepasture of the shepherd.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:26):
I think about bringing them back to the
shepherd, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
The Psalm 23rd Shepherd.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Who is safe and kind andcompassionate and faithful.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:40):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:42):
Well, Jackie, it has been so much fun to chat with
you about these things and aboutbiblical counseling.
And we will have how to contactyou in the description for this
episode.
And also, if you are a biblicalcounselor out there listening
and you're like, yeah, I want tolearn whatever she knows.
Like, I want to learn thatstuff.
We truly are happy to train.

(01:01:03):
That is part of what we do.
We want folks to be their bestcounseling selves.
I know I say this often tointerns, to counselors that I
train.
I know Jackie would echo it,although she'd say it probably a
little bit differently, but lifeis too short for crappy
counseling.
And so if you want to make surethat you are an excellent

(01:01:24):
counselor, we would be happy towalk with you in that and help
you be the best biblicalcounselor that you can be, the
best licensed counselor that youcan be, and to take that
holistic, whole person approachto walking with others.
And that you would be able tosay, they know that I'm his, by
the way, that I love, withoutquestion.

(01:01:46):
Well, thank you for joining uson this week's episode.
Been so good to have you here.
And we will see you guys nexttime on Hey Tabby.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of Hey Tabby.
If you're looking for a resourcethat I mentioned in the show and
you want to check out the shownotes, head on over to Tabitha

(01:02:06):
Westbrook.com forward slash heytabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I-S-E- andyou can grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.

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