June 30, 2025 • 24 mins
What if the church's problem isn't ignoring sex, but being obsessed with it in all the wrong ways? Does the Church really function like a sex addict? This provocative question frames our exploration into how evangelical Christianity's approach to sexuality has created environments where abuse thrives and healthy intimacy struggles to exist.
The fingerprints of this unhealthy fixation appear everywhere—from crude pulpit talk to the hyper-focus on female modesty while neglecting male accountability. Purity culture has left countless believers without the language to identify abuse or the tools to build truly intimate relationships.
Behind church doors, pornography use among leadership is stunningly prevalent. A recent Barna study commissioned by Pure Desire Ministries reveals just how common this struggle is, raising serious questions about how consumption of increasingly violent content shapes attitudes toward women. This isn't merely a personal struggle—it's reshaping how entire congregations understand gender, power, and sexuality.
The path forward requires courage and honesty. We must expand our understanding of intimacy beyond sexual intercourse, recognizing the beautiful complexity of human connection God designed. From youth ministry to premarital counseling, we need meaningful conversations that prepare believers for the realities they'll face while offering a truly counter-cultural vision of sexuality, one marked not by obsession or shame, but by wholeness and genuine intimacy.
Ready to join this crucial conversation? Share your thoughts and experiences as we work toward healthier approaches to sexuality in our faith communities.
Pure Desire Ministries - https://puredesire.org/
Beyond the Porn Phenomenon - Pure Desire/Barna Study - https://puredesire.org/shop/beyond-the-porn-phenomenon/
How to find a CSAT or PSAP - https://iitap.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Is the modern evangelical church a sex addict?
What if the problem isn't thatthe church ignores sex, but
actually that it's obsessed withit, but in all the wrong ways?
In today's episode, we aregoing to talk about this exact
topic.
We are going to talk about theimpact of purity culture and how
it has harmed both men andwomen.
We are going to talk aboutpornography, use and secrecy
(00:21):
amongst church leaders.
We're going to talk about thehyper focus of female modesty
and female sexual activity tothe exclusion of men, and we are
going to talk about the abuse,scandals and cover-ups as well
and how that has impacted how wesee all of these things.
Finally, we're going to closeby talking about how the church
has really distilled downphysical intimacy to nothing
(00:44):
more than sexual intercourse.
Welcome to this week's episode.
I'm glad that you're here.
Welcome to hey Tabby, thepodcast where we talk about the
hard things out loud, with ouractual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
(01:06):
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist,I'm an expert in domestic abuse
and coercive control and howcomplex trauma impacts our
health and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
(01:32):
So I know I started off thisepisode with a pretty strong
statement asking whether or nottoday's evangelical church is
sex addicted, and I know thatthat can be pretty polarizing,
so I'll just acknowledge thatright out of the gate.
But I think that it's a reallyvalid question to ask,
especially looking at all of thescandals that have been coming
to light.
And it has really felt like,maybe in the past five years or
so, that every single day wehear another story about a
(01:55):
leader falling a church,covering something up, things
that have been hidden for maybeeven 40, 50 years coming to
light where minors were beingassaulted and abused, and that
is something that I feel like weshould never hear in the church
.
And my question then becomeswell, how did we get here, how
did we get to this place wherewe have such a distorted idea of
(02:18):
healthy sexuality that we areseeing this play out in these
ways?
Now look, no matter how healthya church is, we are people and
people do things sometimes thatare horrific, and I don't think
that we can ever completelyeradicate this from society or
even from the church.
I do think there are way betterways to deal with it.
I think there are ways to getahead of it in a lot of
(02:40):
different areas, and I thinkthat there are things that
should be happening that don'tcurrently happen in the church
that can prevent it.
So we're going to talk aboutall of those things today within
this context, and I do want tostart off with I have a hopeful
feeling for this, but I alsodon't think we should minimize
things that are going wrong, andif we're not talking about them
, then we can't fix them.
(03:02):
We can't fix what we don't talkabout.
So we're just going to startthere.
When we talk about things likesex addiction or compulsive
sexual behavior, these arethings that often are sitting on
top of trauma responses.
But when I'm talking about itin the church, it's really more
of that obsession of sexualityand sexual activity that I see,
(03:25):
and it gets languaged often fromthe pulpit in ways that are
destructive and unhelpful.
So from pastors talking abouttheir smoking hot wives and
things of that nature, we arelanguaging sex in a very crude
and unhealthy, unbiblical way.
In my opinion, and I think thatthat really sets the stage
right.
Sex is an incredibly beautifulpart of intimate relationships,
(03:48):
and I'm talking about sexualintercourse, but intimacy in
general is meant to be a pictureof God toward us and his heart
toward us.
When it gets to still down tojust sexuality intercourse,
physical contact we're missingsuch a big piece of what
beautiful intimacy is, and I dothink that, in an effort to be
(04:09):
other than society, to have adifferent outlook on sex, that
is really where purity culturestarted.
I've said that a lot before.
I talked about that in Body andSoul, healed and Whole, that
these things were meant to begood things, but then they
became these ultimate things andalso started hiding things that
were really problematic underthe guise of purity culture and
(04:31):
saying oh, we're, you know, notgoing to talk about sex, we're
not going to have sex.
Meanwhile, it's pushingassaults and abuse into secrecy.
Essentially right.
If you're not giving peoplelanguage and education around
what healthy sex is, what God'sdesign for sexuality is, and
healthy sexual relationships,then you're not giving people
(04:51):
language so that when things aregoing wrong, they can say this
isn't the way it's supposed tobe, and then that does keep
abuse hidden and that's deeplyproblematic, obviously.
So when we look at that, we'vegot this compulsivity here of
well, we want to be differentand so we're going to act as if
we celebrate sex, but we'regoing to talk about it in these
crude ways like smoking hot wife, and oh, I can't wait for your
(05:15):
wedding night.
I cannot tell you how manyweddings I went to when I was
younger where the bride andgroom had waited until their
wedding night and everybody wastalking about what they were
going to be doing.
Oh, I bet you guys are going todo XYZ or have so much fun or
whatever, or lingerie partiesand things like that that I've
been to and you know there'snothing inherently wrong in some
(05:35):
ways about a lingerie party orwhatever, but the focus on your
wedding night is going to bethis thing and the teaching that
purity culture has of if youjust wait, then you will fulfill
each other's sexual desires fornow and forever and it'll be
just the best thing ever.
When that doesn't take intoconsideration needing to learn
(05:55):
each other's patterns andpreferences and bodies and all
of these things, and if there'sany trauma that is showing up,
which happens for so many peoplevery rarely do.
I hear that the wedding nightwas like the thing of fireworks
and amazement or whatever.
It was awkward and fumbly andchallenging and still good.
(06:15):
And so I think that we setpeople up for failure when we go
into that direction, and thatis one of the things that purity
culture did.
We go into that direction, andthat is one of the things that
purity culture did.
That is such a disservice toboth men and women as they enter
into what we hope is a lifelongrelationship with each other.
And so the church saying, oh,modest is hottest and you're no
(06:36):
good if you don't marry as avirgin, and all of these things
that ended up being languaged inthat place ended up really not
helping people have languagethat they needed, didn't help
people learn how to walk intochallenging situations.
There are so many challengingsituations that can take place
(06:56):
in the bedroom, even in thehealthiest of situations.
Right, there's two peopletrying to figure stuff out, and
so I think it's really importantfor us to go.
How did purity culture not helpus and how can we move toward
better languaging, betterhonesty, more authenticity?
In this space we can say, hey,here's why God designed
(07:17):
sexuality in this way and how wecan come together in
relationships in this way, andhere's some things that might be
a challenge and here are somethings that you might need to
work through and ways thatyou'll need to learn to talk to
each other and things thatyou'll need to be able to say
and that sort of stuff.
When I look at premaritalcounseling, some of the stuff
I've seen over the years is justabsolute trash, if I'm being
(07:38):
honest.
It covers who's going to like,wash the dishes and stuff and
like that's not unimportant,it's important but it's not
penultimate, right?
How are we going to workthrough difficult things?
How are we going to give eachother the benefit of the doubt?
How are we going to handle itwhen someone betrays us?
Because, look, even in amarriage that is healthy, where
there's not like an intimatebetrayal, like infidelity or
(08:01):
things like that, we hurt eachother.
There are going to be times wedon't show up for each other
when we should and when weneeded to, and that does lead to
betrayal maybe not on the scaleof an infidelity, but it is
definitely still betrayal and soI think it's really important
for us to have much betterpremarital counseling for people
that is more robust and reallycovers a wider gamut of things,
(08:25):
especially as people are gettingmarried a bit older.
You're bringing stuff in right.
You may bring all kinds of lifeexperiences in that you need to
really be able to work through,and I think that we can
definitely do a better job whenwe pull out of just purity,
culture, vernacular and get intohere's what we can do together
and how can we actually do thisand have a relationship that is
(08:50):
strong and healthy and good, andI think we would see a lot
different stuff.
I've always wanted to do a boothat a bridal show and have
parents and family members buycounseling for their future
children and children's in-law,because it's always a helpful
thing, right?
(09:11):
Well, not always, hopefully, agood counselor is a helpful
thing, but it can be such a giftbecause it's like, hey, you are
going to encounter somestruggles and that's okay, and
when you do, here is a resourcefor you.
Or even just setting aside afund and saying, hey, here's
like a gift certificate thatwhen the time comes and it will
come that you guys need a littleextra support.
(09:31):
That is outside of just mom,dad, your community.
What have you here is, you know, 10 sessions to a counselor of
your choosing and then you justpay for it for them, and I think
that is something that would besuch a beautiful wedding gift
that if we really leaned intothat, we might really see people
take advantage of that,especially, I think, the younger
(09:53):
generations, who are much moreopen to therapy now.
I'm going to transition us nowinto the use of pornography, and
this is definitely one of thethings that, in premarital
counseling and just in thechurch in general, we need to be
talking about.
It is so prevalent, soincredibly prevalent in the
church and it is prevalentamongst church leaders.
(10:14):
There's a study that PureDesire commissioned through the
Barna organization that came outat the end of 2024.
And it has some really profounddata in it that I think we need
to really be paying attentionto, and that is just how common
pornography use is amongpracticing Christians, and it is
(10:37):
stunningly high.
So when you take a survey, weknow that some people are going
to be honest and some people arenot going to be as honest, and
we don't always know if we'vegotten all the data, but this is
a pretty robust survey andthere is a lot of pornography
use in the pulpit Now a lot ofthe pastors that answered said
that they used to have a problemwith it and they don't anymore,
(11:00):
but I can tell you from being atherapist that I am not sure
how true that is.
To be honest, I think thatthere can be some significant
struggles.
The other thing that this surveydoesn't cover is how has
pornography use impacted how yousee women and vice versa?
Right, so there are women aswell that struggle with
pornography use, and it's muchhigher that, I think, than
(11:22):
people realize, because womenare also accessing pornography.
It's maybe a little differentthan men at times, but it can be
through erotic fiction andthings of that nature.
So the smut novels, and I thinkthat my question there is also
then how are you learning toview men?
Right?
So how are we viewing theopposite sex because of the use
(11:44):
of pornography in our lives, andI think that that then
increases incidences of abuse.
There's a lot of research outthere that pornography use
increases domestic abuse becauseof how violent pornography
often is, and it is very rarethat pornography use stays
(12:04):
simple heterosexual pornographicviewing, if you will and that
is still not simple at all, likein any way, but it ends up
honestly getting much darker,much more violent, typically,
and that is a progression thathappens over time frequently.
So if someone's been usingpornography since they were a
teenager, what are theyconsuming?
(12:25):
And that, I think, is a veryinteresting question, and I
didn't see that represented inthis particular survey, but I'd
be very curious about the natureof it.
This is one of the things thatI ask people when they come to
me for compulsive sexualbehavior treatment or
problematic sexual behaviortreatment is what are you
watching, how often are youwatching it and what is the
content?
Now, like I don't want thesalacious detail by detail, but
(12:47):
I do need to know the overallcontent of what is being
consumed because I can't justassume it's one thing, and you
would be surprised at how oftenit is that it is much darker and
much more.
It is much darker and much more.
Oh gosh, the word I guess I'mlooking for is terrifying in
some ways than you would expect.
(13:07):
And nobody I've ever spokenwith said yeah, this is exactly
how I wanted my addiction and mycompulsion to play out.
They said it started here andit ended up here, and I don't
know what to do now.
And that is very, very commonbecause, again, it doesn't stay
stagnant, it does grow.
So when we look at what ishappening in the church, it's
not even enough to me to just gookay, pornography is being
(13:28):
consumed pretty regularly on awide basis by both men and women
more men than women at thistime but what kind and what is
it doing to how you see otherpeople?
And then how is that playingout across the church?
And I think that is just asuper important question that we
want to ask and a superimportant thing that we wanna
consider.
And then if we're not talkingabout it again, if we're not
(13:50):
talking about it in the church,then how are we letting people
get help?
How are we helping them reallysit with the weight of what's
happened and then move towardhealing, because being honest is
part of that I and then movetoward healing, because being
honest is part of that.
You know, I think often aboutdoing domestic abuse work and
what my friend Chris Moles saysabout it.
When is a thief no longer athief?
Well, it's not when they stopstealing right, it's when they
(14:13):
become generous.
So, when it is an addict orsomeone struggling with
compulsive behavior no longer anaddict?
Well, it's not when they stopconsuming pornography, it's when
their heart changes toward it,and so I think that is something
that we need to ask betterquestions about in the church,
and if we're not, then we'releaving this big area hidden.
I will encourage churches tomake acquaintances with your
(14:37):
local pastoral sex addictionprofessionals or your local
certified sex addictiontherapists.
We can be really big help inthese areas in helping you
understand the nature ofcompulsive sexual behavior and
things of that nature that youcan then put programs in to get
help with.
One of the bigger ones is PureDesire Ministries.
(14:57):
They have programs for both menand women and for betrayed
partners and for both femalesthat struggle with compulsive
sexual behavior and men.
So I would just commend you tolook at some of their resources.
They are run by lay people, soit may or may not be robust
enough for your situation, butit can be a program that
churches offer that can bereally helpful.
(15:17):
And again, there are a varietyof things that churches can do
to really help not only theirleadership but their
parishioners as well.
And I will say, if a churchdoesn't have space for
leadership to say I'm in troublehere, then we are again keeping
things hidden.
(15:43):
With Dr David Pooler on thepodcast a while back.
He and I talked about one ofthe things that pastors said
initially when they would getcaught committing adult clergy
sexual abuse was I'm going tolose my job and if we can get
ahead of addiction andcompulsion before it even gets
to that place, and that the fearisn't, if I disclose that I'm
having this struggle or thesethoughts, I'm automatically
going to get fired.
Now, sometimes that'sappropriate.
There are consequences forthings that we do.
(16:04):
Sometimes that's appropriate.
However, if we can help peopleget ahead of it before it
becomes problematic, then maybethe job loss issue isn't
penultimate in this case.
The other thing that we oftensee is high control religious
environments that then push thisnarrative Again.
We talked about from the pulpittalking inappropriately about
(16:28):
sex, inappropriately about women, making comments that are
inaccurate, untrue and demeaningand that sort of thing that
happens, sadly, way too often inthe evangelical church.
In the evangelical church Alsothen, using scripture to harm,
and we've talked quite a bit onthis podcast about spiritual
abuse because it is so insidiousand wicked and is so harmful.
(16:49):
So if you're saying submit atall costs and God wants you to
submit, then you're using thatto abuse or you're using that to
allow someone else to abuse andexploit, then you are and this
is what I truly believe meanstaking the Lord's name in vain.
I'm telling you that God saysthis is okay, when the Bible
literally does not, and I thinkthat's a huge issue.
(17:11):
So we want to look at theelements of coercive control and
it's always interesting to mebecause a lot of times people
will think, okay, well, sexualaddiction and sexual abuse are
completely separate fromdomestic abuse and coercive
control, and I'm going to tellyou, as somebody who works in
both sides of this absolutelynot.
They are very tied together.
First of all, sexual abuseplays out in the bedroom, in
(17:33):
coercive controllingrelationships all the time, and
so to say that they are separateand we don't need to deal with
them together is actuallycompletely inaccurate, and I
would just really encouragechurches to think that through,
particularly amongst leadership.
Really think it through and saywhat are we doing?
What are we doing, and look athow that is playing out.
Again, this really is a placeto dial into your own theology,
(17:57):
what is your theology of men andwomen, and we can come to
different places, whether that'scomplementarian, egalitarian,
whatever etarian you might beand look at those things and
still come to healthy placesBecause, no matter who I've ever
met, whether they'recomplementarian or egalitarian,
if they are a true Christfollower who values people, they
(18:18):
are honoring both sexes well.
They are honoring both men andwomen well.
No one is being demeaned.
So I would just encourage you,really look at those things and
really examine maybe evenprograms languaging, all of
those things about what'shappening, and really look at
the interplay between coercivecontrol any high control area or
(18:38):
individual with sex abuse,because they happen together so
frequently.
I'll also say that one of thethings that I have heard
frequently, just being in thechurch.
My entire life I have been apart of the church.
I literally was practicallybirthed at the altar.
I am the daughter of a pastorand I have been in church my
(18:59):
entire life, so I've seenmultiple denominations.
I've been doing this for awhile and I think that there is
an over-focus on sexualintercourse versus true intimacy
and like.
Sexual intercourse is wonderful.
As I've said before, orgasmsare fun.
I definitely enjoy them.
I think most people do.
However, when we distill downintimacy to nothing more than
(19:22):
sexual intercourse, we aremissing so much and we do such a
disservice to the men and womenin our churches because we're
telling them that this is whereyou need to get.
But there are physical issues,there are mental health issues,
there are trauma issues, thereare all kinds of issues that
make it not look like whatsomeone might say is typical,
right, right.
And so if we're focusing onlyon that is what healthy sex is
(19:46):
and healthy intimacy is, then weare literally shorting people
out and in the worst possibleways, and we're narrowing this
wide, beautiful expanse down tothis sliver, and I think that
that is unfair, it's unkind andit's not helpful.
And then again it puts thatfocus on let me get my physical
(20:07):
release, let me do this.
And again it's exploitive, it'sconsumptive, it's using someone
else, and that puts us in thatsame space, as I would classify
someone who's struggling withcompulsive sexual behavior or
problematic sexual behavior oraddiction.
Right, I need to go get what Ineed to go get.
That's the heart of how we seeaddictive behaviors play out,
(20:30):
for whatever reason, whetherit's comfort, whether it's who
knows what.
And when we are saying, well,intercourse is the penultimate,
it is what we need to have asour benchmark for intimacy and
marriage, then we're out ofbalance.
We're out of balance and Ithink that then we do again a
disservice and we arefunctioning as the church as if
(20:54):
we are sex addicted.
So what can we do better?
I'm glad you asked what we cando better is really start
talking about this and reallystart as the body of Christ.
And it starts with the peoplein the pews asking what does my
church believe?
What do I believe?
Why do I believe this?
What does the Bible say aboutit?
What do I know Because of God'sbeautiful common grace that we
(21:18):
have learned about how bodiesfunction, how men and women
function?
What do I know about healthysex that I can look at?
How has my own sexual trauma orharm played into what I believe
or what I am comfortable with?
These are things I think we canstart asking, and I think it's
imperative also for churches tostart asking them as well, from
the leadership level.
(21:38):
How are we languaging this?
Not only how are we languagingthis from the pulpit when we
teach on it and you should beteaching on it properly but how
are we talking about it inwomen's ministry, how are we
talking about it in men'sministry?
And how are we talking about itin youth ministry?
Because we know that the firstaccess to pornography is very
often as a child, as young aslike six to eight.
(22:01):
We're all carrying these littlecomputers around in our pockets
these days and kids are gettingphones and access to the
internet, younger and younger.
And you might be a parent who'slike, oh no, my kids never, my
kid would never.
I will not let them have it.
Well, that's fine for you, butwhat about little Billy down the
street or Sally down the street?
Their parents may not feel thesame way and may not have the
same restrictions.
Your kids are going to accessit.
(22:22):
So what are we doing, not onlyas parents, to help talk about
the beauty of real intimacy andwhat healthy sex looks like, but
what are we doing, again, inyouth group, from elementary age
all the way up through highschool and young adult?
What are we doing to help starta different conversation from
the beginning?
Now again, we can't eradicateeverything, but we can
(22:44):
absolutely do way better than wehave been.
We can have healthy, realconversations that are balanced
and look a lot more like Jesus,and we can talk about God's good
and beautiful design for sexand for intimacy and have it in
the whole content and concept ofrelational intimacy.
We can say, yes, this isbeautiful and good and it's only
(23:06):
one part of a relationship.
Let's talk about what alifetime relationship looks like
and how they look and arehealthy, and how you walk in
them and walk through difficultyand all these different things.
We can do a much better job andI think in that space, as we do
, that the church will lookmarkedly different than the rest
of the world because we will behonest and authentic and not
(23:28):
trying to put on a mask ofholiness that is anything but
holy, but we'll be honest andreal, much the way that
scripture is and definitely theway that Jesus is.
So this was an interestingconversation for you.
I do think that at times, man,the modern evangelical church,
sure does look like a sex addict, but I think there are a lot of
things that we can do and startto reconsider to help it not
(23:52):
look that way and to reallychange the course of how we view
intimacy overall.
Sexual intercourse is not theend-all, be-all of intimate
behavior with somebody.
There is so much more, and Ithink that there is so much more
that's even outside of theromantic intimate relationships.
If you've read Body and Soul,healed and Whole, then you know
(24:12):
that I think healthy friendshipsare super important between the
opposite sex.
Healthy, non-sexual intimaterelationships with both men and
women are a beautiful thing.
I hope that this is edifying toyou.
Reach out if you have questionsand thank you, as always, for
being here with me on hey Tabby,and I look forward to seeing
you the next time.
(24:32):
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom forwardslash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
Is the modern evangelical church a sex addict?
What if the problem isn't thatthe church ignores sex, but
actually that it's obsessed withit, but in all the wrong ways?
In today's episode, we aregoing to talk about this exact
topic.
We are going to talk about theimpact of purity culture and how
it has harmed both men andwomen.
We are going to talk aboutpornography, use and secrecy
(00:21):
amongst church leaders.
We're going to talk about thehyper focus of female modesty
and female sexual activity tothe exclusion of men, and we are
going to talk about the abuse,scandals and cover-ups as well
and how that has impacted how wesee all of these things.
Finally, we're going to closeby talking about how the church
has really distilled downphysical intimacy to nothing
(00:44):
more than sexual intercourse.
Welcome to this week's episode.
I'm glad that you're here.
Welcome to hey Tabby, thepodcast where we talk about the
hard things out loud, with ouractual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
(01:06):
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist,I'm an expert in domestic abuse
and coercive control and howcomplex trauma impacts our
health and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
(01:32):
So I know I started off thisepisode with a pretty strong
statement asking whether or nottoday's evangelical church is
sex addicted, and I know thatthat can be pretty polarizing,
so I'll just acknowledge thatright out of the gate.
But I think that it's a reallyvalid question to ask,
especially looking at all of thescandals that have been coming
to light.
And it has really felt like,maybe in the past five years or
so, that every single day wehear another story about a
(01:55):
leader falling a church,covering something up, things
that have been hidden for maybeeven 40, 50 years coming to
light where minors were beingassaulted and abused, and that
is something that I feel like weshould never hear in the church
.
And my question then becomeswell, how did we get here, how
did we get to this place wherewe have such a distorted idea of
(02:18):
healthy sexuality that we areseeing this play out in these
ways?
Now look, no matter how healthya church is, we are people and
people do things sometimes thatare horrific, and I don't think
that we can ever completelyeradicate this from society or
even from the church.
I do think there are way betterways to deal with it.
I think there are ways to getahead of it in a lot of
(02:40):
different areas, and I thinkthat there are things that
should be happening that don'tcurrently happen in the church
that can prevent it.
So we're going to talk aboutall of those things today within
this context, and I do want tostart off with I have a hopeful
feeling for this, but I alsodon't think we should minimize
things that are going wrong, andif we're not talking about them
, then we can't fix them.
(03:02):
We can't fix what we don't talkabout.
So we're just going to startthere.
When we talk about things likesex addiction or compulsive
sexual behavior, these arethings that often are sitting on
top of trauma responses.
But when I'm talking about itin the church, it's really more
of that obsession of sexualityand sexual activity that I see,
(03:25):
and it gets languaged often fromthe pulpit in ways that are
destructive and unhelpful.
So from pastors talking abouttheir smoking hot wives and
things of that nature, we arelanguaging sex in a very crude
and unhealthy, unbiblical way.
In my opinion, and I think thatthat really sets the stage
right.
Sex is an incredibly beautifulpart of intimate relationships,
(03:48):
and I'm talking about sexualintercourse, but intimacy in
general is meant to be a pictureof God toward us and his heart
toward us.
When it gets to still down tojust sexuality intercourse,
physical contact we're missingsuch a big piece of what
beautiful intimacy is, and I dothink that, in an effort to be
(04:09):
other than society, to have adifferent outlook on sex, that
is really where purity culturestarted.
I've said that a lot before.
I talked about that in Body andSoul, healed and Whole, that
these things were meant to begood things, but then they
became these ultimate things andalso started hiding things that
were really problematic underthe guise of purity culture and
(04:31):
saying oh, we're, you know, notgoing to talk about sex, we're
not going to have sex.
Meanwhile, it's pushingassaults and abuse into secrecy.
Essentially right.
If you're not giving peoplelanguage and education around
what healthy sex is, what God'sdesign for sexuality is, and
healthy sexual relationships,then you're not giving people
(04:51):
language so that when things aregoing wrong, they can say this
isn't the way it's supposed tobe, and then that does keep
abuse hidden and that's deeplyproblematic, obviously.
So when we look at that, we'vegot this compulsivity here of
well, we want to be differentand so we're going to act as if
we celebrate sex, but we'regoing to talk about it in these
crude ways like smoking hot wife, and oh, I can't wait for your
(05:15):
wedding night.
I cannot tell you how manyweddings I went to when I was
younger where the bride andgroom had waited until their
wedding night and everybody wastalking about what they were
going to be doing.
Oh, I bet you guys are going todo XYZ or have so much fun or
whatever, or lingerie partiesand things like that that I've
been to and you know there'snothing inherently wrong in some
(05:35):
ways about a lingerie party orwhatever, but the focus on your
wedding night is going to bethis thing and the teaching that
purity culture has of if youjust wait, then you will fulfill
each other's sexual desires fornow and forever and it'll be
just the best thing ever.
When that doesn't take intoconsideration needing to learn
(05:55):
each other's patterns andpreferences and bodies and all
of these things, and if there'sany trauma that is showing up,
which happens for so many peoplevery rarely do.
I hear that the wedding nightwas like the thing of fireworks
and amazement or whatever.
It was awkward and fumbly andchallenging and still good.
(06:15):
And so I think that we setpeople up for failure when we go
into that direction, and thatis one of the things that purity
culture did.
We go into that direction, andthat is one of the things that
purity culture did.
That is such a disservice toboth men and women as they enter
into what we hope is a lifelongrelationship with each other.
And so the church saying, oh,modest is hottest and you're no
(06:36):
good if you don't marry as avirgin, and all of these things
that ended up being languaged inthat place ended up really not
helping people have languagethat they needed, didn't help
people learn how to walk intochallenging situations.
There are so many challengingsituations that can take place
(06:56):
in the bedroom, even in thehealthiest of situations.
Right, there's two peopletrying to figure stuff out, and
so I think it's really importantfor us to go.
How did purity culture not helpus and how can we move toward
better languaging, betterhonesty, more authenticity?
In this space we can say, hey,here's why God designed
(07:17):
sexuality in this way and how wecan come together in
relationships in this way, andhere's some things that might be
a challenge and here are somethings that you might need to
work through and ways thatyou'll need to learn to talk to
each other and things thatyou'll need to be able to say
and that sort of stuff.
When I look at premaritalcounseling, some of the stuff
I've seen over the years is justabsolute trash, if I'm being
(07:38):
honest.
It covers who's going to like,wash the dishes and stuff and
like that's not unimportant,it's important but it's not
penultimate, right?
How are we going to workthrough difficult things?
How are we going to give eachother the benefit of the doubt?
How are we going to handle itwhen someone betrays us?
Because, look, even in amarriage that is healthy, where
there's not like an intimatebetrayal, like infidelity or
(08:01):
things like that, we hurt eachother.
There are going to be times wedon't show up for each other
when we should and when weneeded to, and that does lead to
betrayal maybe not on the scaleof an infidelity, but it is
definitely still betrayal and soI think it's really important
for us to have much betterpremarital counseling for people
that is more robust and reallycovers a wider gamut of things,
(08:25):
especially as people are gettingmarried a bit older.
You're bringing stuff in right.
You may bring all kinds of lifeexperiences in that you need to
really be able to work through,and I think that we can
definitely do a better job whenwe pull out of just purity,
culture, vernacular and get intohere's what we can do together
and how can we actually do thisand have a relationship that is
(08:50):
strong and healthy and good, andI think we would see a lot
different stuff.
I've always wanted to do a boothat a bridal show and have
parents and family members buycounseling for their future
children and children's in-law,because it's always a helpful
thing, right?
(09:11):
Well, not always, hopefully, agood counselor is a helpful
thing, but it can be such a giftbecause it's like, hey, you are
going to encounter somestruggles and that's okay, and
when you do, here is a resourcefor you.
Or even just setting aside afund and saying, hey, here's
like a gift certificate thatwhen the time comes and it will
come that you guys need a littleextra support.
(09:31):
That is outside of just mom,dad, your community.
What have you here is, you know, 10 sessions to a counselor of
your choosing and then you justpay for it for them, and I think
that is something that would besuch a beautiful wedding gift
that if we really leaned intothat, we might really see people
take advantage of that,especially, I think, the younger
(09:53):
generations, who are much moreopen to therapy now.
I'm going to transition us nowinto the use of pornography, and
this is definitely one of thethings that, in premarital
counseling and just in thechurch in general, we need to be
talking about.
It is so prevalent, soincredibly prevalent in the
church and it is prevalentamongst church leaders.
(10:14):
There's a study that PureDesire commissioned through the
Barna organization that came outat the end of 2024.
And it has some really profounddata in it that I think we need
to really be paying attentionto, and that is just how common
pornography use is amongpracticing Christians, and it is
(10:37):
stunningly high.
So when you take a survey, weknow that some people are going
to be honest and some people arenot going to be as honest, and
we don't always know if we'vegotten all the data, but this is
a pretty robust survey andthere is a lot of pornography
use in the pulpit Now a lot ofthe pastors that answered said
that they used to have a problemwith it and they don't anymore,
(11:00):
but I can tell you from being atherapist that I am not sure
how true that is.
To be honest, I think thatthere can be some significant
struggles.
The other thing that this surveydoesn't cover is how has
pornography use impacted how yousee women and vice versa?
Right, so there are women aswell that struggle with
pornography use, and it's muchhigher that, I think, than
(11:22):
people realize, because womenare also accessing pornography.
It's maybe a little differentthan men at times, but it can be
through erotic fiction andthings of that nature.
So the smut novels, and I thinkthat my question there is also
then how are you learning toview men?
Right?
So how are we viewing theopposite sex because of the use
(11:44):
of pornography in our lives, andI think that that then
increases incidences of abuse.
There's a lot of research outthere that pornography use
increases domestic abuse becauseof how violent pornography
often is, and it is very rarethat pornography use stays
(12:04):
simple heterosexual pornographicviewing, if you will and that
is still not simple at all, likein any way, but it ends up
honestly getting much darker,much more violent, typically,
and that is a progression thathappens over time frequently.
So if someone's been usingpornography since they were a
teenager, what are theyconsuming?
(12:25):
And that, I think, is a veryinteresting question, and I
didn't see that represented inthis particular survey, but I'd
be very curious about the natureof it.
This is one of the things thatI ask people when they come to
me for compulsive sexualbehavior treatment or
problematic sexual behaviortreatment is what are you
watching, how often are youwatching it and what is the
content?
Now, like I don't want thesalacious detail by detail, but
(12:47):
I do need to know the overallcontent of what is being
consumed because I can't justassume it's one thing, and you
would be surprised at how oftenit is that it is much darker and
much more.
It is much darker and much more.
Oh gosh, the word I guess I'mlooking for is terrifying in
some ways than you would expect.
(13:07):
And nobody I've ever spokenwith said yeah, this is exactly
how I wanted my addiction and mycompulsion to play out.
They said it started here andit ended up here, and I don't
know what to do now.
And that is very, very commonbecause, again, it doesn't stay
stagnant, it does grow.
So when we look at what ishappening in the church, it's
not even enough to me to just gookay, pornography is being
(13:28):
consumed pretty regularly on awide basis by both men and women
more men than women at thistime but what kind and what is
it doing to how you see otherpeople?
And then how is that playingout across the church?
And I think that is just asuper important question that we
want to ask and a superimportant thing that we wanna
consider.
And then if we're not talkingabout it again, if we're not
(13:50):
talking about it in the church,then how are we letting people
get help?
How are we helping them reallysit with the weight of what's
happened and then move towardhealing, because being honest is
part of that I and then movetoward healing, because being
honest is part of that.
You know, I think often aboutdoing domestic abuse work and
what my friend Chris Moles saysabout it.
When is a thief no longer athief?
Well, it's not when they stopstealing right, it's when they
(14:13):
become generous.
So, when it is an addict orsomeone struggling with
compulsive behavior no longer anaddict?
Well, it's not when they stopconsuming pornography, it's when
their heart changes toward it,and so I think that is something
that we need to ask betterquestions about in the church,
and if we're not, then we'releaving this big area hidden.
I will encourage churches tomake acquaintances with your
(14:37):
local pastoral sex addictionprofessionals or your local
certified sex addictiontherapists.
We can be really big help inthese areas in helping you
understand the nature ofcompulsive sexual behavior and
things of that nature that youcan then put programs in to get
help with.
One of the bigger ones is PureDesire Ministries.
(14:57):
They have programs for both menand women and for betrayed
partners and for both femalesthat struggle with compulsive
sexual behavior and men.
So I would just commend you tolook at some of their resources.
They are run by lay people, soit may or may not be robust
enough for your situation, butit can be a program that
churches offer that can bereally helpful.
(15:17):
And again, there are a varietyof things that churches can do
to really help not only theirleadership but their
parishioners as well.
And I will say, if a churchdoesn't have space for
leadership to say I'm in troublehere, then we are again keeping
things hidden.
(15:43):
With Dr David Pooler on thepodcast a while back.
He and I talked about one ofthe things that pastors said
initially when they would getcaught committing adult clergy
sexual abuse was I'm going tolose my job and if we can get
ahead of addiction andcompulsion before it even gets
to that place, and that the fearisn't, if I disclose that I'm
having this struggle or thesethoughts, I'm automatically
going to get fired.
Now, sometimes that'sappropriate.
There are consequences forthings that we do.
(16:04):
Sometimes that's appropriate.
However, if we can help peopleget ahead of it before it
becomes problematic, then maybethe job loss issue isn't
penultimate in this case.
The other thing that we oftensee is high control religious
environments that then push thisnarrative Again.
We talked about from the pulpittalking inappropriately about
(16:28):
sex, inappropriately about women, making comments that are
inaccurate, untrue and demeaningand that sort of thing that
happens, sadly, way too often inthe evangelical church.
In the evangelical church Alsothen, using scripture to harm,
and we've talked quite a bit onthis podcast about spiritual
abuse because it is so insidiousand wicked and is so harmful.
(16:49):
So if you're saying submit atall costs and God wants you to
submit, then you're using thatto abuse or you're using that to
allow someone else to abuse andexploit, then you are and this
is what I truly believe meanstaking the Lord's name in vain.
I'm telling you that God saysthis is okay, when the Bible
literally does not, and I thinkthat's a huge issue.
(17:11):
So we want to look at theelements of coercive control and
it's always interesting to mebecause a lot of times people
will think, okay, well, sexualaddiction and sexual abuse are
completely separate fromdomestic abuse and coercive
control, and I'm going to tellyou, as somebody who works in
both sides of this absolutelynot.
They are very tied together.
First of all, sexual abuseplays out in the bedroom, in
(17:33):
coercive controllingrelationships all the time, and
so to say that they are separateand we don't need to deal with
them together is actuallycompletely inaccurate, and I
would just really encouragechurches to think that through,
particularly amongst leadership.
Really think it through and saywhat are we doing?
What are we doing, and look athow that is playing out.
Again, this really is a placeto dial into your own theology,
(17:57):
what is your theology of men andwomen, and we can come to
different places, whether that'scomplementarian, egalitarian,
whatever etarian you might beand look at those things and
still come to healthy placesBecause, no matter who I've ever
met, whether they'recomplementarian or egalitarian,
if they are a true Christfollower who values people, they
(18:18):
are honoring both sexes well.
They are honoring both men andwomen well.
No one is being demeaned.
So I would just encourage you,really look at those things and
really examine maybe evenprograms languaging, all of
those things about what'shappening, and really look at
the interplay between coercivecontrol any high control area or
(18:38):
individual with sex abuse,because they happen together so
frequently.
I'll also say that one of thethings that I have heard
frequently, just being in thechurch.
My entire life I have been apart of the church.
I literally was practicallybirthed at the altar.
I am the daughter of a pastorand I have been in church my
(18:59):
entire life, so I've seenmultiple denominations.
I've been doing this for awhile and I think that there is
an over-focus on sexualintercourse versus true intimacy
and like.
Sexual intercourse is wonderful.
As I've said before, orgasmsare fun.
I definitely enjoy them.
I think most people do.
However, when we distill downintimacy to nothing more than
(19:22):
sexual intercourse, we aremissing so much and we do such a
disservice to the men and womenin our churches because we're
telling them that this is whereyou need to get.
But there are physical issues,there are mental health issues,
there are trauma issues, thereare all kinds of issues that
make it not look like whatsomeone might say is typical,
right, right.
And so if we're focusing onlyon that is what healthy sex is
(19:46):
and healthy intimacy is, then weare literally shorting people
out and in the worst possibleways, and we're narrowing this
wide, beautiful expanse down tothis sliver, and I think that
that is unfair, it's unkind andit's not helpful.
And then again it puts thatfocus on let me get my physical
(20:07):
release, let me do this.
And again it's exploitive, it'sconsumptive, it's using someone
else, and that puts us in thatsame space, as I would classify
someone who's struggling withcompulsive sexual behavior or
problematic sexual behavior oraddiction.
Right, I need to go get what Ineed to go get.
That's the heart of how we seeaddictive behaviors play out,
(20:30):
for whatever reason, whetherit's comfort, whether it's who
knows what.
And when we are saying, well,intercourse is the penultimate,
it is what we need to have asour benchmark for intimacy and
marriage, then we're out ofbalance.
We're out of balance and Ithink that then we do again a
disservice and we arefunctioning as the church as if
(20:54):
we are sex addicted.
So what can we do better?
I'm glad you asked what we cando better is really start
talking about this and reallystart as the body of Christ.
And it starts with the peoplein the pews asking what does my
church believe?
What do I believe?
Why do I believe this?
What does the Bible say aboutit?
What do I know Because of God'sbeautiful common grace that we
(21:18):
have learned about how bodiesfunction, how men and women
function?
What do I know about healthysex that I can look at?
How has my own sexual trauma orharm played into what I believe
or what I am comfortable with?
These are things I think we canstart asking, and I think it's
imperative also for churches tostart asking them as well, from
the leadership level.
(21:38):
How are we languaging this?
Not only how are we languagingthis from the pulpit when we
teach on it and you should beteaching on it properly but how
are we talking about it inwomen's ministry, how are we
talking about it in men'sministry?
And how are we talking about itin youth ministry?
Because we know that the firstaccess to pornography is very
often as a child, as young aslike six to eight.
(22:01):
We're all carrying these littlecomputers around in our pockets
these days and kids are gettingphones and access to the
internet, younger and younger.
And you might be a parent who'slike, oh no, my kids never, my
kid would never.
I will not let them have it.
Well, that's fine for you, butwhat about little Billy down the
street or Sally down the street?
Their parents may not feel thesame way and may not have the
same restrictions.
Your kids are going to accessit.
(22:22):
So what are we doing, not onlyas parents, to help talk about
the beauty of real intimacy andwhat healthy sex looks like, but
what are we doing, again, inyouth group, from elementary age
all the way up through highschool and young adult?
What are we doing to help starta different conversation from
the beginning?
Now again, we can't eradicateeverything, but we can
(22:44):
absolutely do way better than wehave been.
We can have healthy, realconversations that are balanced
and look a lot more like Jesus,and we can talk about God's good
and beautiful design for sexand for intimacy and have it in
the whole content and concept ofrelational intimacy.
We can say, yes, this isbeautiful and good and it's only
(23:06):
one part of a relationship.
Let's talk about what alifetime relationship looks like
and how they look and arehealthy, and how you walk in
them and walk through difficultyand all these different things.
We can do a much better job andI think in that space, as we do
, that the church will lookmarkedly different than the rest
of the world because we will behonest and authentic and not
(23:28):
trying to put on a mask ofholiness that is anything but
holy, but we'll be honest andreal, much the way that
scripture is and definitely theway that Jesus is.
So this was an interestingconversation for you.
I do think that at times, man,the modern evangelical church,
sure does look like a sex addict, but I think there are a lot of
things that we can do and startto reconsider to help it not
(23:52):
look that way and to reallychange the course of how we view
intimacy overall.
Sexual intercourse is not theend-all, be-all of intimate
behavior with somebody.
There is so much more, and Ithink that there is so much more
that's even outside of theromantic intimate relationships.
If you've read Body and Soul,healed and Whole, then you know
(24:12):
that I think healthy friendshipsare super important between the
opposite sex.
Healthy, non-sexual intimaterelationships with both men and
women are a beautiful thing.
I hope that this is edifying toyou.
Reach out if you have questionsand thank you, as always, for
being here with me on hey Tabby,and I look forward to seeing
you the next time.
(24:32):
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom forwardslash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
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