Parenting Spicy Kids - How to Stay Calm When You're Told To "F Off" - Hey Tabi!

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:40):
Welcome to Hey Tally, the podcast where we talk
about the hard things out loudwith our actual list.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how tointersect with a Christian
phase.
Nothing is off limits here, andwe are not deep divorced in
calming in the morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, and
I'm not your trauma therapist.

(01:01):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and wealth.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to be alunch forever.
There is hope.
Now, let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof Hey Tabby.
I am super stoked to be herewith a very good friend and

(01:23):
colleague, and I am going tointroduce him to you on the off
chance that you don't know whothis man is.
So I am here with Dr.
Greg Wilson.
He is an LPC supervisor inTexas.
He has been married to Christyfor 27 years and they have an
adult daughter named Sarah.
And he also owns and leads SoulCare Associates, which is a
counseling practice andconsulting practice in Flower

(01:46):
Mound, Texas.
And Greg, I am so stoked to haveyou here with us today.

SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
I'm excited too.
I love this.
This is like long overdue.
I just wish that you and I couldhave actually more like
in-person conversations thataren't at conferences or things
like that.
Like we live, well, I live fulltime in an area, right?
In an area where you livehalftime or something like that.

(02:12):
But like at least half the time,like we're in the same area, but
we're both so busy.
So here we are having aconversation on Zoom for all the
folks out there.
But I'm just glad that anytime Iget to have a conversation with
you, it's a delight.
So I'm glad to be here.

SPEAKER_03 (02:27):
Same here.
I'm really excited.
And we're going to talk abouttoday something that I get asked
about a ton.
And I know Greg gets asked abouta ton, and that is parenting
adolescents when there's traumain the picture.
And if I'm being real, that isparenting every adolescent known
to mankind for the most part.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (02:48):
Right.
So, I mean, my own story, whichI don't even know if you know
this, Tabby, but like my daddied when I was 12.
Any passing of a parental figurewhen you're a child is
traumatic.
But he had heart issues.
This is back in the day whenthey didn't really know all the
things that they do know thesedays.
This was a long time ago.
He died in 1975.

(03:09):
I'm an old guy.
But that was for me, that was avery significant, as you can
imagine, time in my life.
Kind of everybody else knewbecause I was the youngest.
So, like my older brother, who's10 years older than me, and all
the other family who were allolder than me, everybody knew
that like he was like one moreheart attack away from the end

(03:32):
of his life.
It's just, you know, it was justhis heart had had a lot.
And I knew that he had been inthe hospital a few times, you
know, but I didn't know that.
I didn't know that like we werelike at that place.
And so it was just devastatingfor a boy, you know, going from
transitioning from sixth gradeto seventh grade.
Back then we didn't have middleschool.

(03:52):
So that was also the transitionfrom elementary school to junior
high school for me.
And like there was just a lotgoing on.
And so I think that's part ofwhere my heart for adolescents
and the young people, if I canuse that kind of old person way
of describing adolescence.

(04:12):
I think that's where my heartfor that particular age group
has come from.
And then for a while I was ayouth pastor in my pastoral
ministry before I was a seniorpastor.
And so I had that.
So I always tell people like insome ways, I've been working
with teenagers my whole adultlife in different ways, ever

(04:34):
since I was one, while I wasstill trying to figure stuff
out, you know, and just in justa behind the scenes in terms of
like where this desire to workwith that population comes from.
But I get it, you know.
I mean, you had trauma when youwere growing up, I had trauma
when I was growing up, differentkinds of trauma.

(04:54):
And so we can see that when youlove to use the word spicy a lot
when you're talking about, youknow, things and and like when
parents out there, so I knowthat there are a lot of trauma
survivors and victims and peoplewho work with trauma listening
to your show, like when theykind of act like a jerk, when

(05:17):
they are disrespectful, allthat, it is important, I think,
for us to take a look at theperson created in the image of
God that's underneath that andthe vulnerabilities that are
there because of the hurts andthe traumas and just the
anxieties and just all thestuff.

(05:38):
Like, even if we're talkingabout a middle school kid or a
high school kid who honestly hasnot had anything that would be
on an ACES score, for example,or something like that, like we
still know that it's just hardthese days to grow up being a
kid and being an adolescent.
And then when you throw in likelegitimate trauma, domestic
abuse, a death, a divorce,whatever the course of control,

(06:02):
like whatever the thing isthat's going on, then that just
magnifies it.

SPEAKER_03 (06:07):
Absolutely.
And I think too, you know, whenwe think about kiddos and trauma
these days, just look at thenews cycle, right?
And, you know, even young kidsare experiencing like this
vicarious trauma from hearingabout all the junk in the world
and not knowing what to do withit and training for active
shooter drills and all thatstuff.

(06:28):
Right.
And it's parents, right?
Like we can go, oh, well, in mygeneration, we had to get under
the desk in case there was anuclear war, or in my
generation, we had to do tornadodrills, or we had to get on our
knees in a hallway, whichhonestly I don't know how that
protects anybody, but whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
Right.
You know, and it but here's thething, and you know this, but
let me just highlight thisbecause you're exactly right.
So I definitely grew up in thegeneration where we did the in
the Cold War and we did thegetting under our desk in case
there was a nuclear attack orsomething like that.

But here's the reality (06:55):
like, yes, there was a concern about a
potential nuclear attack.
There were not nuclear attackshappening all over the place all
the time that you guys turn onthe news, oh, another nuclear
attack.
The kids these days that arehaving these active shooter
drills, like it is I'm notsaying that it wasn't, you know,

(07:16):
I'm not getting into thepolitics or the the foreign
policy debate about like howlikely a nuclear attack was back
in our day.
I'm just saying that we didn'tsee them happening all the time.
You know, we it was something wewere afraid of, but it wasn't
like a part of life.
Whereas sadly, serial shootingshappening in schools is like a
fact of life these days.

(07:37):
And so when kids are whenthey're having those drills, it
feels a lot more, and you knowhow the trauma brain works.
I don't have to tell you this,but like it certainly feels a
lot more like this is like anabsolute reality that could
actually happen.
And they're living with that.

SPEAKER_03 (07:52):
They are they're this is their everyday.
And I think that's as parents, aplace that we can be more
compassionate and say, you'reright, there is a hardness.
I think there's that balance,right?
That as a parent, you want tobalance the tension of this is
really hard, and how do youbuild resilient?

(08:13):
And I think that might be usefulto speak to because we have so
many listeners that are in thatI am a rent abuse survivor
space.
And how do they hold the tensionof yes, this was really bad?
And also, I need you to step upto the plate and have some
boundaries and have resilienceand not crumble under pressure.
So, how would you speak to aparent trying to foster a

(08:34):
compassionate space with healthyboundaries and also fostering
resilience?

SPEAKER_01 (08:38):
Um, man, I love that.
Well, here's what I think.
I think that I think about thequote, I'll answer your
question, but I think about whatKurt Thompson says that we all
come into the world looking forsomeone looking for us.
You know, like that idea that itis important.
It is so important for thatyoung adult, that adolescent,

(09:00):
that person, even if they're agrown adult, it's important for
all of us to be seen, to beknown, to have someone who sees
us as an individual created theimage of God, and who calls out
the ways that they see usbearing the image of God in our
lives.
And so I think those keyattachment figures, you know,

(09:24):
mom, dad, if both are in thepicture, or if not, then
whichever one is in the picture.
But being able to be present andbe and stay regulated, right?
Because as we all know, adysregulated adult is not going
to help a dysregulated teenageror child become more regulated,

(09:44):
right?
And so like it's so importantthat we be able to stay
regulated as hard as it is.
And again, we're sitting heretalking, you have a young adult
child, I have a young adultchild.
We have been through theseyears, at least somewhat, we're
still some ways going throughthem.
But the reality is it is hard.
And I would not ever want topresent that this isn't going to

(10:06):
be a hard time or a challengingtime.
It is.
Even if your kid speaking to theperson who maybe mom and son or
mom and daughter have gonethrough a trauma together, which
I know could be a lot of peoplein your audience, you know what
this kid has gone through, andhe or she has gone through a
lot.
And you also know that it isnormative in this season for

(10:30):
them to be asking questions, forthem to be challenging norms and
rules and society and pushingback against authority and all
those things.
And we certainly know you and Icould talk forever about just
the particular situation ofsomeone who has grown up in a
coercively controlling home, andnow maybe they've gotten out of

(10:50):
that or whatever.
But again, you take the normalteenage desire to push back
against authority, and then youthrow on top of that that they
have seen bad authority livedout in their lives, um, and
maybe are still seeing it livedout in their lives.
And that is a recipe for likethis kid's just gonna have a
hard time.
And so I think recognizing mychild is going to have a hard

(11:14):
time, that's a reality.
It's hard to be a teenager, it'shard to be a survivor, it's
doubly hard to be a teenager whois also a survivor.
Uh, and being present, beingthere for them, not you and I
were having a little pregameconversation before we hit

(11:35):
record on this.
Like, yes, having boundaries andalso being present for them and
enjoying them and having funwith them.
I have a little kernel of a bookidea, Tabby, that at some point
maybe you'll see come tofruition.
It's not, there's not even apublisher, like, there's not a
whole lot of words on paperright now, just a bunch of

(11:56):
notes.
So that's where it is in theprocess.
You understand what that processis like.
But it's on the idea of I'malways wanting parent and
caregivers, because sometimesthis also includes grandparents
and other significant others,mentors in the church or in the
community in this young person'slife.

(12:16):
I'm always wanting them tounderstand what I think is so
important about just enjoyingthem, the enjoyment of them.
Like that they know that mom,dad, youth leader, friend,

(14:10):
teacher, coach, whoever thisperson is, band director, that
this person sees them as aperson and actually enjoys them
and actually kind of lights upwhen they show up, when they
walk in the room and gives thema smile and gives them a hug if
they are okay with hugs and allthose kinds of things.
And knows if they're not okaywith hugs, right?
Like knows them well enough tolike know I understand you don't

(14:32):
want to hug, but I just want togive you a high five or whatever
and let you know that I see you,right?
We can get more into specifics,but is it too broad for me to
just say that like I thinkthat's the thing ultimately that
they need more than anythingelse?

SPEAKER_03 (14:47):
I think that's so wise, actually.
Here's the question I can hearall the mamas, especially
because I've never been a dad,but I've been a mama and I've
worked with a lot of mamas, go,but Greg, how?
Like when the kid is at spicelevel ghost pepper, how do I do
that when it seems like I canjust be present in a room and

(15:09):
they're like, F you, mom, youknow, f you, dad?
What do we do with that?
How do we delight in ourchildren?
Because I agree with you.
And it reminds me of thescripture, God's kindness leads
us to repentance, right?
That's right.
It's not his disdain for us.

SPEAKER_02 (15:23):
That's right.

SPEAKER_03 (15:24):
So, what is it that we do as parents to bring a
little bit of what we see Goddoing while we're saying, hey,
you know, I hear that there'ssome spice in there, but we
can't be telling me to F off.
What do we do?
What do we do with all that?

SPEAKER_01 (15:39):
Yeah, no, that's so typical.
And you're right.
So I encourage parents incuriosity.
I encourage, I think you'veheard me talk about this too in
trainings that we've donetogether.
I encourage counselors to bemore curious.
I think we all need to be morecurious.
But in that particularsituation, I would say if you
can find like what is the thingthat I can be curious about in

(16:05):
this scenario, like what isthis?
So I think, and I know you agreewith me, I think all behavior is
purposeful.
So when your kid is being ghostpepper level spicy, they are
telling you something aboutthemselves.
And if you can try to not bereactive in that moment, which

(16:27):
again requires regulatingyourself, maybe saying, hey,
you're gonna have to go to yourroom right now.
I want to have a conversationwith you.
There's so much I want to likefigure out about what's going on
here right now.
But right now, mom needs alittle mom time.
I need to take a walk.
I need to maybe even just sleep.
So maybe if it's the end of theday, it's like, we're gonna talk

(16:49):
about this tomorrow.
We're not gonna talk about thistonight.
So I'm tired.
I need to just like get somesleep, and you need to as well.
And you may be up till three orfour in the morning.
I don't know what you're gonnado, but I'm going to bed and I
would encourage you to at areasonable time.
And tomorrow we'll have adifferent conversation.
I mentioned to you before, Ihope this is okay, but I
mentioned to you before when wewere talking earlier.

(17:11):
I just read a book by a traumatherapist that we both know.
The therapist's name, he'sactually a psychiatrist, but he
does a lot of trauma work.
His name is Frank Anderson, andhe's not a believer, but he just
wrote a memoir.
What stood out to me is that hetells a story about his oldest
son going through just a reallytotally an FU kind of phase of

(17:34):
like, I don't like you, I don'twant to be around you.
Every time he was in the room,he like kind of gave him a glare
that the glare basically said, Idon't like you.
In fact, maybe I hate you rightnow.
And they dealt with that for awhile, and he dealt with it in
all the usual, even though he'sa psychiatrist and a counselor,
like he dealt with it in all theways that all the typical normal

(17:55):
human ways that we as parentsdo, even if we do the kind of
work that you and I do, heyelled at him and he grounded
him and he told him he and everyright to talk to him that way,
and like all those kinds ofthings.
And then one day, I mean, Ireally got choked up when I was
reading it.
I might get choked up nowtelling the story.
But one day his son just comesout and just randomly gives him

(18:15):
a hug.
Like just comes and justrandomly hugs him.
He says, Dad, I just needed ahug.
I love you.
I know I've been a jerk.
He used a stronger word, butthat's the word we'll stick with
here.
And he said, You know, I'm justI'm going through some stuff.
And that again, I see in mypractice, because I do see a lot
of adolescents.
I do see a lot of adolescentsthat have gone through trauma of

(18:38):
one kind or another.
And I do hear that a lot fromthe teenagers that I see.
Now, you know, as counselors,you know, because you've also
raised a kid, but then you'vebeen a counselor, you've been in
the counseling room with a lotof adolescents.
Same with me.
And so, like, we hear sometimesin the counseling room the

(18:58):
things that we really wish wecould hear from our own kid in
those moments.
And the thing that that kidwould tell their parents, right?
But we get to hear those thingsbecause of that experience.
I just want to say to thatparent who's getting the FU.
Number one, I've been the kidwho was giving the FU, sadly.
So again, when my dad died whenI was 12, I went through a

(19:22):
really hard time in myadolescent years.
And I was the kid saying F you,and I was the kid pushing away
and giving the Heisman, and Iwas the kid saying, No, I don't.
Thank you, Mr.
Youth Pastor, for reaching outto me.
I appreciate that.
I have zero interest in going toyour church or your youth group
or your camp or your retreat orwhatever right now.

(19:45):
And so having been that kid, andthen having over the years, I'm
62, over the pretty much all theyears that I've been an adult
since then, counseling and beingin spaces with kids like that.
I can just virtually assure you,mom, dad, if you're listening,
caregivers who are listening,that kid is going through some
stuff and he's trying tocommunicate what he is saying to

(20:08):
you, sounds has all the earmarksof being about you, right?
It would be hard for any humanbeing to think to believe.
No, Greg, he's actually he hatesme clearly.
Like he used the words I hateyou.
You know, all of his behaviordemonstrates that.
And what I would gently, kindly,with compassion and all that

(20:32):
stuff, because again, I get it,it's a hard season.
I'm not trying to say I know itall at all in these situations
because I number one, I don't,and number two, every situation
truly is different.
But my strong hunch is that yourkid is trying to tell you
something.
And they're not trying to tellyou I hate you.
They're not trying to tell youyou're a terrible parent.

(20:54):
There's a subtext underneathwhat they're actually saying
that you've got to like learnhow to read.
It was much easier to read whenthey were a compliant
10-year-old.
I get it.
It was much easier to read.
It was, I was, as I mean, justspeaking from my own life, like
when I was 14, I was being ajerk to my mom, who had just
lost her husband as well, just acouple of years before.

(21:16):
I was much easier to raise andtalk to and deal with and
discipline when I was, you know,9, 10, 11 years old.
What was it that Mark Twain saidabout the teenage years?
Just kind of put them in abarrel with a plug or something,
plug it up or whatever.
If we don't get to do that,like, you know, this person's
still in your life.
You got to figure out a way tokindly, compassionately,

(21:39):
lovingly live with that youngperson in a way that is safe for
you and safe and healthy forthem.
And so it is absolutely okay.
Please don't hear this counselorsaying, you know, so just don't
have any boundaries.
And like, I mean, we alreadyknow that that population that
you and I are talking to, I'vehad a lot of clients in that

(22:01):
population.
You've had a lot of clients inthat population.
Like, we already know that likeboundaries is in some ways like
a new idea.
And being able to exerciseagency around some of these
things is like something that isnew.
I'm trying to figure out inevery other area of my life as
well.
And then I'm given the bad newshere that you're also gonna have

(22:22):
to like figure that out withyour kid in real time.
Let them know.
Let's say it is a mom and a sonwho have, you know, dad was
abusive and he's left, or a momand a daughter.
It's like, hey, we're gonna haveto figure this out together.
And I love you, but like the wayyou're talking to me right now
is not okay.
So there's gonna be aconsequence for the way you're

(22:43):
talking to me, whatever that is,age appropriate, obviously,
consequence for what that is.
But at the same time, I love youmore than you know, and I am
here for you, and I want us tofigure this thing out together.

SPEAKER_03 (22:58):
Yeah.
There are the moms out therethat say, But I tried to do
everything right.
Right.
Right?
I left my abuser, I did thisthing, I've prayed over my
child, I modeled Jesus in myhouse.
I wasn't perfect.
And why am I here?

SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (23:14):
And I will just say, you cannot control what your
children do.

SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
That's right.

SPEAKER_03 (23:19):
You know, you can set the best limits and
boundaries.
And at the end of the day, thisis an autonomous human being who
around the age of 17 suddenlythinks I know all the things.

SPEAKER_00 (23:28):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (23:28):
And they're like, I'm about to be 18, I'm just
gonna go do all the things.
And we know their brain isn'tfully developed yet.

SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
You know, and parents can know not even until
they're 25 or 26 years old,right?

SPEAKER_03 (23:39):
Right.
They they do not have all thepieces wired up.

SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (23:43):
For so many parents, you can say, but I know all
this.
Why am I still struggling?
Why are we still here?
I did all the right things, andI think then that becomes
sometimes a bit of anexistential crisis for the
parent or caregiver with God.

SPEAKER_01 (24:00):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, it's so hard becauseagain, we apply that to every
area of our life, not just theparenting, right?
So someone who's listening mayalso be saying, I did all the
right things with my marriage.
Like I tried to love him the wayI was supposed to love him.

(24:20):
I showed up, I did probably evenmore things than I should have
done to try to bend to what hewanted me to be.
Like I tried all the things I'vebeen trying so, so hard.
And now maybe I'm still in that,or maybe I've gotten out of that
relationship, but now it'sshowing up with my kid.
Someone, please help.

(24:41):
Where are you, God, in thatmoment?
And I mean, you and I have bothbeen in that room.
We've both been in that spacemany, many times.
It's like, sister, brother,listener, all I'm gonna say is
that God is there and he lovesyou, and that it's never been
about all the things that youdid or didn't do, and it's not

(25:04):
about all the things that youdid or didn't do right now.
That's not the gospel that webelieve.
And so, yes, I get, I feel likeI've done all the things.
I went to my counselor, and mycounselor told me all these
things, and I've checked themall off.
I've done them all verydutifully because I want things
to be better.
And like you said a minute ago,Tabby, it's like you don't get

(25:28):
to control how this teenagerturns out.
Which again, for a lot of ourlisteners right here, it's like,
I hope that that can be a littlebit of a breath of fresh air in
the sense that it's possiblethat you've been in a
controlling, coercive,manipulative, destructive
relationship for a long periodof time where someone else

(25:48):
thought that they could controlyour behavior by, you know,
doing certain things orwhatever.
And now, and please hear me,listener, I'm not accusing you
of doing the same thing.
I'm saying that to want tocontrol outcomes is human and
natural.
But what you want to do is youwant to receive, like, oh, you

(26:09):
know, I didn't want to becontrolled by this person.
And ultimately, this person wasnot able to control me.
Like, I was able to make my owndecisions.
And guess what?
That also applies to my 13, 14,17, 18, whatever year old child,
23, 22, yes, year old kid aswell.

(26:31):
And so it's like, so receivethat.
And I think that if you're ableto receive that, again, I know
it's hard, if you're able toreceive that, because all
parents want their kids to liketurn out amazing and making
great choices and all thosethings.
But I think if most of uslisteners, I know Tabby and I
would agree.

(26:52):
I already know her well enoughto know that she would agree
with this.
But listeners, like if you canthink back to when you were that
age or when you were in thatspace, you weren't making all
the right, you weren't killingit, probably either, you know.
And so to be able to look backand go, okay, all right, I get
it.
Like they're growing up, like wejust alluded to, their
prefrontal cortex is not fullydeveloped.

(27:14):
Honestly, even after it is,like, even if you have older
adult kids that are in theirlate 20s and early 30s, I'm 62.
So, you know, I look back atlife and I go, man, you know,
32, 35, 42, 45 55.
There are so many decisions Iwant back again, but I don't get

(27:36):
them back again.
But what I do is I get to learnfrom them, you know.
So Lord's not going tonecessarily give me back those
years.
I know that that's a promise inJoel 2 that he'll restore the
years that the locusts havedestroyed.
And I think we can claim thatpromise in certain ways.
The Lord has for sure redeemed alot of things from my teens and

(27:57):
twenties and thirties andforties and fifties.
A lot.
But one thing that that promisedoes not include is that I
actually get to go back and liveagain the years that the locusts
destroyed.
I don't get that.
You know, like I'm gonna thoseyears are they're clocked,
they're in the journal, they'vehappened, they're in the
rearview mirror.

(28:18):
And now the question is like,what am I gonna learn from those
years moving forward?

SPEAKER_03 (28:24):
Yeah.
And I think another thing Iwould just encourage folks, this
is something we don't talk aboutin the church nearly as much as
we should, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 (28:33):
I agree.

SPEAKER_03 (28:34):
And I think I will never forget being at an
encounter service at our church,which is like a prayer and
worship service.
And for those who don't know,Greg and I go to the same
church.
And we never see each otherthere, but we do go to the same
church.

SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
It's a big church.
Yes, it's a very big church.

SPEAKER_03 (28:51):
Yeah, but I just remember this mom knowing I was
safe enough to tell becausewe've had our own trauma story
and that stuff in my family.
And I think I exude the you cantell me your stuff vibe, which
is how I became a therapist,right?
And this mom was just pouringout and she's I don't even know
who I could be real with at thechurch.
And I think that is a far moreoften sentiment than we realize

(29:15):
that it the way that we describeit in our practice is we call it
the spicy parents group.
And we want to advertise we'reactually going to start a group
for parents of spicy children,but we calling it the spicy
parent group could maybemisunderstand what we are
talking about.
Right.
But there are kiddos who arestruggling deeply.
And it doesn't matter yoursocioeconomic status.

(29:37):
You and I both know that abuseis an equal opportunity harmer.
It doesn't matter your race,religion, socioeconomic status,
abuse is wickedness and itaffects so many people, no
matter who you are.
And so we have kids acrossstrata who are struggling and
parents in the church who feelalone.
And I just want to encourage youas a therapist who sits with

(30:01):
these families, as a mom who hasbeen in this family, that there
are others out there.
And getting some support andencouragement from safe people
is really important, especiallyif you're coming out of your own
traumatic story, whether that'sabuse, whether that's death,
whether that's anything, right?
Because we have naturaldisasters that have taken place

(30:22):
that affect families deeply.
I've worked with families where,you know, maybe there was a
tragic car accident and one ofthe children was killed, and
then the rest of the family isreeling from how do we deal with
this, right?
So there's a million differentways to be traumatized as a
family.
And how do we find when ourkiddos are struggling?
How do we find the people aroundus that are safe people that can

(30:43):
help lift us up when we're like,I just need to stick my face in
the dirt and I don't know whatto do.

SPEAKER_01 (30:48):
That's right.
And so you need, as a parent,you need that community of safe
people that you can go to andsay, I'm about to either pull
all my hair out or pull all ofhis hair out, or do even
something worse.
You know, like whatever.
If you're just in that place,you need to have those people
around you who can say, I seeyou, I've been there, you're

(31:12):
gonna get through this.
And then I would also say thatyour teenager needs those people
too, besides you.
They need someone.
And we're both believers, likeyou said, we go to church
together.
But what I would say is ifyou're not finding that in the
church, find it somewhere else.
Find it in the activities thatthey're in school.

(31:32):
I was a band kid growing up, andthe band hall was always a very
safe place for me.
Like I had my people there.
And so, like, that was a safeplace for me when I wasn't going
to church, when I was pushingback against all that.
I knew that there were peoplewho cared about me and who saw
me there.
For some people, that maybethey're theater kids.

(31:53):
So it's going to be that group.
Maybe there are.
And I get that, like you also asa parent, you might be saying,
Hey, I don't know if I love allthe things that this group of
people or that these friends aredoing or taking part in, or
whatever.
And I understand that.
I see that.
I guess what I'm Saying isnumber one, being aware about

(32:15):
what's going on.
So being involved in your kid'slife and knowing the things that
other people are telling them.
Again, I know that that's mucheasier.
You have one kid, Debbie.
I have one kid.
It's been much easier for us inthat respect.
I've got lots of clients whohave four or five kids.
They're like, I can't be ateverything.
You know, like and I'm stillrecovering from my own trauma
and all that as well.

(32:36):
I get that.
In some of those spaces, you mayjust have to trust the
sovereignty of God, that Godsees and knows your kid, and
He's going to put you aroundpeople that are going to be safe
and helpful for them at thisparticular season of life.
There may have to be some thingsthat you reteach.
There may have to be some thingswhen they come home and talk
about things that they'velearned or seen.

(32:57):
You have to say, hey, we don'tdo those things here in this
house, or we don't talk that wayin this house, or whatever that
is.
But again, like letting themfind their safe people and their
safe places is really important.
They need that.

SPEAKER_03 (33:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And it is hard, right?
Again, kids do not come out withowner's manual when you birth
themselves.
That's right.
And if you've adopted them, evenif you adopted them as a baby,
there is inherent trauma becausewe don't get to adopt Shinn or
Foster if things have gone greatfor your birth family.

SPEAKER_02 (33:25):
Exactly.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (33:26):
So there is that inherent peace that we are going
to have to deal with.
And we're not going to do itperfectly.
And I think a lot about AdamYoung, who is a therapist, a lot
of people know about.
He has a podcast called ThePlace We Find Ourselves.
He talks about repairs.
And I think that is one of themost profound things.
And if you grew up in ahousehold where nobody ever said
they were sorry.
And this I hear a lot from likepeople of my generation and

(33:48):
elder millennials and whatnot.
So I'm solidly Gen X, everyonehere knows that.
But you know, what we hear a lotis my parents never apologized.
You know, they were alwaysright.
And I think that is a lean in oflike, hey, I'm sorry.
And if you are coming out of acoercively controlling
relationship, those words tosomeone who feels like the

(34:10):
abuser, even though they are notyour children, are not your
abuser.
Again, that doesn't mean youdon't need boundaries and things
like that, and that you shouldjust accept anything.
But when it feels the same toour bodies, it can be very scary
to say I'm sorry because it wasscary to say I'm sorry to your
abuser because they weaponizedit.
And I think as parents, it's aspace or caregivers, it's a

(34:32):
space to lean into that's reallyimportant, even if you don't see
immediate fruit.
And I think this is the otherthing.
This is a long game.
And it is so stinking hard as aparent to go, I don't know
what's going to happen in 20 or30 years.
What if they never calm down?
What if they never make rightchoices?

(34:54):
What if they never turn to theLord?
What if they hate me?
What if they are alienated fromme?
And man, as a parent, there's somuch grief with all of that and
grief of the things that youdidn't get to do, you know, or
that you missed out on.
I know plenty of parents who'vehad to put kiddos in treatment
facilities for their own good,for their own health.

(35:16):
And no one prepares you forthis.

SPEAKER_00 (35:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (35:19):
No one prepares you for not having a traditional
high school graduation or movingyour child into college or going
to prom, right?
Like we have all of these thingsthat we as parents, when we give
birth, or if we adopt a child,if we foster a child, we have
all of these dreams for thembecause of course we do.

SPEAKER_02 (35:37):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (35:38):
That's a beautiful thing.
And when those dreams don'thappen, that can feel
devastating.
And it can also feel shameful.
And I've worked with so manyfamilies who are like, I feel
like I am the one with theproblem because we didn't get to
do all these things, and allthese families around us are
being normal, what we callnormal in the United States, and

(36:01):
I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (36:03):
So, how would you speak into the grief of the what
I didn't get because of where weare?

SPEAKER_01 (36:10):
Yeah, that's so good.
I think what's important is toremind yourself that you did the
best that you could, you did thebest that you were able to with
what you had.
And that at the end of the day,you have to recognize that that
at the end of the day, thatisn't that doesn't promise a

(36:33):
particular result.
And that we grieve out of ourlove for the other person.
We grieve because we love,right?
We grieve because we lovedeeply.
And so to be able to say, I lovethis person deeply, I've had to
make some hard choices becausethey made some bad choices.

(36:55):
And I have to recognize that Idid the best that I could with
the situation that I was in, andthat I'm not going to be
perfect, and neither are they.
And that God is a God ofredemption, and that sometimes
over time he turns those thingsback around.
I mean, at the end of my mom'slife, she actually lived here.

(37:16):
In fact, this room that I'm inright now was actually one of
her rooms.
She had this room, which was abedroom that she turned into a
like a sitting room, and then onthe other side of that wall back
there was her bedroom.
She actually lived with us thelast several years of her life.
And I was able to minister toher and love her for many, many,
many years after my traumaticteenage years.

(37:38):
But I treated her tabby terriblewhen I was a teenager, just
terrible.
I was it's just embarrassing forme to even think about it
sometimes, some of the thingsthat I did and said, and she had
to make some hard choices andand she did, and I'm glad that
she did.
And at the end of the day, in atleast in my story, it worked

(37:59):
out.
Now, again, I hear what you'rethinking, which is and what some
of our listeners are thinking,which is I don't know if it's
gonna work out in my story.
And you know, I don't either,listener.
I wish I could tell you that forsure.
What I can tell you is that ifyou will show up and be
boundaried and expect respectand give respect.

(38:21):
You deserve respect, and Ideserve respect.
And so, like, we're going togive and receive respect
mutually in this relationship.
If we can't do that, there'sgoing to be some consequences,
then that's probably the bestyou can do in that situation.

SPEAKER_03 (38:36):
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (38:37):
And do you have any other thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_03 (38:40):
It's a hard road, right?
Like there's not a right answer,there's a right method, right?
And when I say right method, itis knowing your own physiology
and knowing what's going on foryou.
Because that is a place you canstart, is what is happening in
me when my kid does XYZ,whatever that is, and why.

(39:03):
And being curious about that foryour own self and not from a
pejorative or diminishing orjudgmental, shameful standpoint,
right?
I it's what is happening in methat is causing this big
reaction.

SPEAKER_00 (39:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (39:18):
And for families, I'll just say if your kid is
extra spicy, if they are ghostpepper, you're not going to be
happy no matter how calm youlearn to be.
That's right.
It's never not going to be sad.
And I think sometimes and par.
Yes.
And I think sometimes therapistsaccidentally communicate that
you will suddenly not have bigemotions that you have to reckon

(39:39):
with.
That's not true.
Emotions are very telling andthey're very helpful.
And they also sometimes are veryuncomfortable.
But it's understanding, like,oh, what's happening in me when
this is happening with my child?
What care and kindness and areasdo I need to work on and grow?
And then even if your kid isstill being spicy, it doesn't
mean you won't be sad.

(40:00):
You're gonna be sad.
You're gonna have the grief.
You know, all trauma work isgrief work, is one of my
favorite phrases of all time.

SPEAKER_01 (40:06):
Absolutely.
It is.

SPEAKER_03 (40:07):
And so we lean in and we know that I'll never feel
some sort of perfect, floaty.
I don't know, I don't know whatwe expect sometimes, but it is
not that.

SPEAKER_01 (40:17):
Right, exactly.
Yeah, I totally agree.

SPEAKER_03 (40:21):
But it can be good, right?
And we can learn to see ourkiddos.
The way I refer to it a lot oftimes in the therapy room is
context versus content.

SPEAKER_02 (40:30):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (40:30):
Like I can see all the trees.
There's a lot of trees.
Tree, tree, tree, tree, tree,right?
Bad behavior, skip to school,telling me all kinds of things,
using colorful language I'drather they didn't.
All kinds of stuff.
Right.
Those are all trees.
But what is the forest?

SPEAKER_00 (40:43):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (40:44):
Am I in the forest of despair?
Am I in the forest of trauma?
Am I in the forest of I don'tfeel like I belong anywhere,
which every teenager does nothave to have big T trauma to
feel?
That is like called trying tolive.

SPEAKER_02 (40:56):
Absolutely.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (40:58):
You know, where am I at?
And you know, what forest am Iseeing and learning to ask that
question, again, imperfectly,because we're never not gonna
be, we're just not gonna get itright every time.

SPEAKER_00 (41:09):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (41:09):
But what do we do when we go, okay, wonder what
this forest is?
You know, yes, I'm gonna holdboundaries and no, you're not
gonna tell me to F off.
That's not gonna work for us.

SPEAKER_02 (41:19):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (41:19):
You know, but how do I stay 72 degrees and manage my
own internal world while I tryto figure out what forest I'm
staring at?
And and spoiler alert, mom, dad,caregivers, um, that forest can
change.

SPEAKER_00 (41:34):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (41:35):
Like quickly.
I think about one of my favoritetools for couples' work, which
and this is one of the funnythings that people don't always
know about us because you and Itend to talk about abuse, better
intervention, coercive control,a lot of that stuff a lot.
But both Greg and I work a lotwith adolescents and a lot with
couples who are not destructive.

SPEAKER_00 (41:53):
Yes, and we love that work.
We love that work.
Please, please come see us.
It helps keep us level.

SPEAKER_03 (41:58):
Right.
And we love all the work.
But one of the things I thinkabout in terms of relationship
building is love maps.
And we often use them in thecontext of a romantic
relationship, but that is notthe only thing.
And you really said it earlier.
The Kirk Thompson quote, whichis a favorite of mine, is yeah,
we come into the world lookingfor someone looking for us.
And that is knowing the innerworld of this other person you

(42:21):
care about.
That's right.
So, how can you build love mapswith your kiddos so that when
you have these hard times, whenthese moments come where you're
taking a withdrawal from the Iam in a relationship with you
bank account, that we have doneso much depositing that the
withdrawal is not going to havesuch a big impact.

SPEAKER_00 (42:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (42:42):
So we don't want to overdraw our love bank accounts.
So, where are the things whenthings aren't spicy in the good
moments?
And you might be sitting theregoing, like, we're not having a
lot of those right now.
Right.
I hear you, but we might have acouple.

SPEAKER_00 (42:55):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (42:56):
Where can we lean in?
Again, not losing boundaries.
And this is attention that a lotof parents have to figure out
what are the right boundaries,what are the right consequences,
right?
They're so individualized.
But how do I, without violatinghealthy boundaries, lean in
toward my kiddo and findsomething that is going to be a

(43:17):
deposit and help me know theirinner world a bit more?
And sometimes kids get spicyrelated when they don't feel
like you're hearing them.

unknown (43:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (43:27):
And look, what's coming out of their mouth may be
the most unhinged thing you haveever heard in your life.
And you may be like, wow, thatis not a well thought through
political position, emotionalposition, position at all.
And that's okay.
Think about the unhinged,ridiculous things you believed
at 16, 17, 18.

SPEAKER_02 (43:44):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (43:45):
And I just I think about some things often.
So I used to be very activistic.
I am still very much an activistat heart.
There is that part of me, right?
Like I just do not have anytolerance for injustice at all.

SPEAKER_00 (43:56):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (43:56):
But when I was 17 years old on my birthday, I was
driving to a political party'sorganizational headquarters in
my town to get yard signs.
And I got in an accident becausemy brakes ended up failing.
It was I drove a really old car.

SPEAKER_02 (44:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (44:11):
And I remember my parents being so angry, like,
why would you do that?
And I'm like, why wouldn't you?
Right.
And I look back at it, and itwas like they were upset about
the wreck, and they just didn'tunderstand why I thought I
needed to like go be anactivist.
And I look at that and it'slike, maybe that wasn't their
values, but they were mine.
And if that's right.

SPEAKER_01 (44:33):
And what I would what I would tell, what I would
have told your parents in thatsituation is like, hey, maybe
they're not your values, butthey're hers.
And if like if you can find away to get in touch with that
about your daughter, if you canget in touch with like, you
know, God is a God of justiceand God hates injustice.

(44:54):
And I think it's so beautifulthat, like, you know, what I'm
seeing here, even though I don'tthink maybe this particular
decision or that particulardecision was the wisest one, or
one that I would encourage youto make again or ever.
But in the midst of that, I cansee how you image a God who
values justice.

(45:15):
And then that can be an once aperson is able to like feel seen
by someone else, then that canbe an opportunity to say, so
let's talk about let's talkabout how justice could even be
enacted here, like with us.

SPEAKER_02 (45:31):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (45:32):
Like between me and you, like what's just for like
you to for you to treat me, andwhat's a just way for me to
treat you?
And let's think about enactingthat here.
And and maybe it'll lookdifferent than I've been doing
as a parent.
I'm open to that, but also maybeit'll look different than you've
been expecting as a kid.
And I want you to be open tothat.
And now you're having real talkwith your kid instead of

(45:54):
fighting, and you're doing it onthe basis of like praising
something that they have alreadyidentified is important to them.

SPEAKER_03 (46:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I actually knew a parentthat went with their child to a
protest, and it was a protestthis parent was not down with.
They were like, I do not agree.
Um, but they wanted to know whatit was that their child saw in
it.

SPEAKER_02 (46:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (46:16):
And so they leaned in.
And look, I'm not telling you toviolate your moral values or any
of those things at all, but tobe curious, yeah, why is this
important to you?
You know, and one thing I willsay with a lot of the Gen Z and
Gen Alphas is they are lookingat hypocrisy in the world and
they are not cool with it.
They're not happy about it.

(46:36):
Yeah.
And their minds aren't formedenough yet.
You know, if you're a Gen Z orGen Alpha listening to this and
you're like, ma'am, like, look,dude, your brain is not going to
be all the way wired up.
It's just the way it is.
And you're going to get to yourlike late 20s and be like, I was
a ding dong.
And that's okay because we'reall in that place at times.
You know, when we look at it,it's like, why are they upset

(46:56):
with hypocrisy?
Well, look at the news cycle,look at all of the shade they've
seen, look at all of thesethings.
How can I, as a parent, even ifmy values are very different,
even if my expression of themwould be very different, even if
we share the same values?

SPEAKER_00 (47:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (47:10):
How do I lean in to the best of my ability?
Again, not saying don't haveboundaries, not saying don't use
your moral compass, not sayingany of those things, not saying
to accept something that youdon't believe to be godly.
But what I'm saying is, can yoube curious about the why?

SPEAKER_00 (47:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (47:24):
If you have been through spiritual abuse and your
church posed you bad in yourabusive relationship and you
have gotten out and you finallyfound a new church and all that,
and your kids don't want to go,it makes a lot of sense why they
wouldn't.
They saw the hypocrisy there.

SPEAKER_00 (47:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (47:39):
And they don't have a full understanding of, well,
some people are just doingthings that don't look like
Jesus at all.
That's right.
And so, how do we invite theminto being curious about their
own stance, being curious aboutwhere they're at if we're not
curious about them first?

SPEAKER_01 (47:55):
Yeah, totally.
I 100% agree with you.

SPEAKER_03 (47:59):
So what is something that you would say to a parent
of a spicy adolescent or youngadult that like if you could say
anything, if you could have mom,dad, grandma, grandpa, aunt,
uncle, some caregiver sitting infront of you, what would you
want to say to them right now?

SPEAKER_01 (48:19):
I think I would want to say, so let me just channel
that I'm talking to this personright now.
Here's what I would say to them.
God knows.
God sees, He knows what you'vebeen through, He knows what
they've been through.
He knows that this is hard foryou, He knows that this is hard
for them.

(48:40):
He loves you, He loves them, andthe next step for you is to try
to find a way to, I love whatyou just said, Tabby, to lean
in.
Like, what does that lean inlook like?
What does me understanding theirrelational world a little bit

(49:00):
better?
What does that look like for me?
Whether I'm talking, honestly,whether I'm talking to the
teenager or the parent, I wouldsay that.
What does it look like to leanin and try to take the
perspective of this other personand try to understand them?
And then we may be talking aboutthis road, may be a really long

(49:20):
road in terms of figuring eachother out, recognizing where the
other person's coming from, likegetting to that place where your
prefrontal cortex is fullydeveloped.
And again, to my point that Imade earlier, it's like, yeah, I
can think of a lot of decisionsway, way after my prefrontal
cortex was supposedly fullydeveloped, that were like

(49:43):
terrible decisions that I wouldlove to have back.
And that's part of, again, as anolder man, as an older person,
uh, you know, maybe this is justsomething that I think people
sometimes need to hear.
I would change decisions I made10 years ago.
So I mean, like that's that isnot going to change.
We're not going to get to thatplace of perfection.

(50:06):
It's more about, as our pastorsaid in a sermon actually many
years ago now, that we weredoing his James series, but it's
progress, not perfection.
And that's what it is.
That's what the Christian lifeis.
Start to finish, that's whatsanctification looks like.
And so, like, and that's whatlife is, period.
Whether you're a believer ornot, what's the next step of

(50:28):
progress that I can make?
And for with in a relationship,not even just with a teenager,
although again, I think thatthis applies there, but like in
any relationship, I think tryingto take their perspective,
trying to be able to say thething that to describe the thing
that they did or the belief thatthey have in a way that they

(50:49):
would be okay with, that thatthey would perceive as generous
to them, you're not just dissingwhat they did.
You're not just like putting itdown.
You're not just saying, like apolitical candidate might say to
another political candidate onthe stage, I guess you just
don't care about immigrants orsomething.
Like I I don't think that that'sfair, right?
It's the kind of fodder thathappens on in political debates

(51:12):
and that happens between twoattorneys in a courtroom, but
that should not be what happensin a relationship that's based
on love.
You want to try to be able totake the other person's
perspective, try to be able toexpress it in a way that is
generous to them, and then to beable to move towards them,
hopefully, in that in love.

(51:33):
Absolutely.
That was a long time.
I love that.
That was great.

SPEAKER_03 (51:36):
I love that.
I love that.
I think what I would say isdon't forget to pray.
Yeah.
Because I think a lot of timeswhen I hear these words, well,
when all else fails, pray.
And I'm like, I mean, I wouldstart with prayer.

SPEAKER_01 (51:50):
Yeah, let's start there.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (51:52):
God has a lot to say about that, but I think it can
feel this way.
And I remember reading this inBeth Moore's memoir, All My
Notted Up Life, which if youhaven't read it, I commend it.
It's a fantastic book.
And we'll link all the books andreferences in the show notes as
well, so that if folks werelike, What was that again?
You'll have access to it.
But in her memoir, she's talkingabout her husband Keith and his

(52:18):
struggles with bipolar disorder.

SPEAKER_02 (52:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (52:20):
And one of the things that she basically says
is, Where is my miracle, God?
You heal other people.
I watch you do it.
Where is mine?

SPEAKER_00 (52:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (52:30):
And the Lord was so sweet to show her, not through
making it better.

SPEAKER_00 (52:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (52:36):
Through changing her.
And so that to me, for a parentwho is struggling with a spicy
kiddo, is such an honestquestion.
Where's my miracle, God?
I watch these people, like I wasjust at church this weekend, and
this really beautifully tattedup brother who's clearly seen

(52:56):
something, was getting baptized.
And I could think about all theparents in the room who are
like, Well, where's my son?
Where's my daughter?
Where's my miracle?
Where's my husband?
Where's this?
Where's my sister?
Whatever.
Right.
And I would just say, Don't growweary of doing good, for in due
time you shall reap a harvest,which is from Galatians 6.
And we don't get to alwaysdictate what that harvest is.

(53:17):
Prayer isn't God is not a geniein a Bible, right?
We don't rub it the right wayand get what we want, right?

SPEAKER_02 (53:22):
That's right.

SPEAKER_03 (53:23):
We have to trust his sovereignty and his goodness,
and that can be hard.
That can be really hard.
But to not give up in prayerbecause we don't know the
story's not written until we'reat home home.
And that means heaven.
That's right.
And so give over to prayer, evenimperfectly.
Again, progress, not perfection,like Greg says.
It's give it to Jesus and thenask him to help you give it to

(53:47):
him again and again and againand again and again.
Yeah.
Sometimes moment by moment,sometimes with each breath, with
each tear.
And find some support aroundyou.
Good parents who love Jesus andwho will love you.
And I'll say this to churches aswell, especially for single
mamas.
A lot of times, single women ingeneral, single people, men and

(54:09):
women get overlooked in thechurch, but single women
especially, and single mamasparticularly.
And there might be, you know,the oil change day where your
church gets together and changesthe oil and all the vehicles for
every single mother.
And that's great.
But man, there are days when shejust needs a hug and she just
needs to be heard.

SPEAKER_01 (54:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (54:26):
And she needs men in the church to come alongside her
son or daughter.
And I know that everybody justfreaked out and was like, well,
I don't know, man.
Sometimes people in churcharen't trustworthy.
I'm not saying like you checkyour brain at the door here.
Like we want to vet human beingsand all that.

SPEAKER_00 (54:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (54:40):
But also the church should be helping plug some of
these gaps emotionally andrelationally.
And I just think of back to Ihad done some disaster relief
work and I'd flown a little tooclose to the sun, as the
children say, uh-huh.
And had definitely exceeded mycapacity.
And one night I was at anotherencounter service.
A lot happens with me atencounter services, I'll be

(55:01):
honest.
But I'm at an encounter serviceand I was not good.
I was not okay.
And when they opened it up forprayer, went to find an elder to
pray with.
And this particular elder thatknows me well saw me coming and
he's from Louisiana.
So he's got this beautifulaccent.
And he said, Mama, what's wrong?
And just opened his arms andtook me into his arms and just

(55:22):
let me cry before I could evensay, Well, you know, a boss girl
too close to the sun during somedisaster relief.
I'm not good.
I need prayer.
Right.
And as we prayed together, hesaid, you know, you just need
somebody lift up your arms likeMoses did.
Let me be that person for youtonight.
And he was.
And so those are simple things.
And it was so meaningful to me.

(55:43):
Yeah.
That he did that, that he sawme.
And when we get to know the menand women in our church, we get
to see them.
And so for mom, dad, caregiver,don't be afraid to be known.
Now, look, if you go to a churchthat sus, maybe find a different
church that's safer.
Like, let's be honest.
I'm not going to be silly.
Right.
But you know, if you have a goodbody of believers around you, be

(56:05):
known.
Don't hide the spice in yourfamily thinking no one will love
me if they know.
Because there's more than youthink.
And when you start to tell yourown story appropriately, right?
We're not shaming our children.
Yep.
When we start to tell our storyappropriately, we find that
there are more like us than wethought.
And then we can get some of thatgoodness of, hey, how are you?

(56:27):
Can I pray for you?
And being fully known ourselves.
And that's really important.
And that gives you strength forthe day sometimes, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 (56:35):
It does.
It does.
That's a good word.

SPEAKER_03 (56:39):
Well, I want to talk a little bit about some of the
books real quick as we sort ofland this plane.
Greg is an author and he haswritten a couple of books.
One is When Home Hurts withJeremy Pierre.
And it is such a great book forchurches who need to understand
domestic abuse and coercivecontrol.
It has one of my favoritediagrams of all time in it that
finds its way into mypresentations with Greg's

(57:01):
permission and full attribution,which I am grateful for because
it tells such a good story andunderstanding of how we're
supposed to do both victim care,perpetrator care, and marriage
care.
It's one of my favorites.
And then the other book isCaring for Families Caught in
Domestic Abuse, where Greg hascontributed to that and is
really helpful.
That's another book.
It's really helpful for churchesto look at and to say, I need to

(57:26):
plan.
And this book says, Hi, here'sthe ability to have a plan.
And that's such a helpfulresource for churches.
And also, either one of thesebooks, if you are a victim of
domestic abuse and coercivecontrol, either of these books
can be helpful in youunderstanding the dynamics for
yourself and understanding whatgood care should look like.

(57:46):
And that's right.
So these are things that I thinkcan be very empowering for
people as well.
So I commend them to the churchas a whole and then to victims
as well.
And you know, is there anythingyou added?

SPEAKER_01 (57:57):
I'm glad you said that about the it it shows you
what good care should look like.
Cause I think that that hasbeen, I mean, we wrote the book
for church leaders and pastorsand people in care ministries
and so forth.
And there's we've certainly gotgood feedback from those people
that that it's been helpful forthem.
But a place that we, I'm notsure realized how much it would

(58:19):
be helpful is in victimsactually reading it and then
going, This isn't where I needto be.
You guys are not doing this theright way.
And being able to, or being ableto say, I want to be here.
You guys are not doing this theright way.
Can you change the way you'redoing this?
To would you read this book andthink about like the way that
this care model is beingpresented and consider doing it?

(58:42):
And they've actually takenresponsibility for their own
care, which is also awesome andhas been really helpful.

SPEAKER_03 (58:48):
Yeah, that is awesome.
And I'll also note that Greg, wedid mention this at the very
beginning.
Greg does consultation.
So if you are a therapist or abiblical counselor out there
listening and you're like, dang,I got a case that I think Greg
could help me out with, we willhave his contact information in
the show notes as well on hiswebsite.
Reach out to him and do someconsultation with him.
I've actually reached out when Ifirst started doing perpetrator

(59:10):
work, like it feels like athousand years ago now.

SPEAKER_01 (59:12):
It does, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 (59:13):
Gosh, I called Greg and I'm like, help.

SPEAKER_01 (59:16):
And we need more people in this work.
So Tabby and I both want toreally help people.
So, yes, if you have any urge orperceived calling from the Lord
or or anything that would nudgeyou into doing a little bit more
of this work, or if you just gotkind of shoved into it like we
did and you want some help,yeah, feel free to reach out for

(59:37):
sure.
To either one of us, actually.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (59:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
We would love to help you.
But I want to thank you, Greg,for hanging out with us here on
Hey Tabby and for just providingyour wisdom and your feedback
and letting folks, you know,lean into what is a hard topic,
especially when you're in themiddle of it, man.
I think we can all look back atthings 25 years after all the
spice has somewhat diminishedand go, oh, I wish I had done.

(01:00:03):
But like in the middle of it,it's so hard to see out the
other side.
It can feel like standing in asandstorm where you're like, I
don't know which grain to grab.
And so thank you for having thisconversation.
And for families out there,Greg's practice, my practice,
this is a place that we canhelp.
We can do parenting coaching.
I know my practice doesparenting coaching.
We both do therapy.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:23):
We would be happy to we have other people besides us
that we supervise and lead.
And so, yeah, take advantage ofthe journey and the process and
Soul Care Associates.
Yeah, we'd love to help.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:35):
Absolutely.
So thank you again, Greg.
It has been so good to have youhere, and we will see everybody
else on our next episode of HeyTabby.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of Hey Tabby.
If you're looking for a resourcethat I mentioned in the show and
you want to check out the shownotes, head on over to
tabithawestbrook.com forwardslash hey tabby.

(01:00:58):
That's H-E-Y-T-A-C-I, and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.

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Parenting Spicy Kids - How to Stay Calm When You're Told To "F Off"

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Parenting Spicy Kids - How to Stay Calm When You're Told To "F Off"