October 13, 2025 • 33 mins
When pastors teach on marriage, sex, or addiction but fail to mention abuse, survivors in the pews hear a dangerous message: stay, submit, and suffer silently.
In this episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook explains why silence from the pulpit enables harm and how pastors can bring truth, safety, and compassion into conversations about marriage, sexuality, and faith.
You’ll learn:
- Why abuse and coercive control must be named in sermons on marriage and sex addiction
- How silence from church leaders can embolden abusers and retraumatize victims
- What trauma-informed preaching looks like in real life
- How to protect the vulnerable and promote genuine healing and restoration within the Church
Tabitha draws from her experience as a licensed trauma therapist and international expert in domestic abuse and coercive control, sharing practical ways pastors and Christian leaders can model Christ’s heart for the oppressed.
If you’ve ever wondered why the Church’s silence on abuse causes such deep harm - or how to do better - this episode is essential listening.
Resources Mentioned:
- National Domestic Violence Hotline: https://www.thehotline.org
- Called to Peace Ministries: https://www.calledtopeace.org
At The Journey and The Process we strive to help you heal. Our therapists are trauma specialists who use evidence-based tools like EMDR, Brainspotting, Somatic Experiencing, and Internal Family Systems to help you heal - mind, soul, and body. Reach out today to start your healing journey. https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/
This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?
You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com
💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
📲 The Journey & The Process Instagram - www.instagram.com/_tjatp
Subscribe to my YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there
👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!
🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
Need to know how to find a great therapist? Read this...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
When pastors teach on marriage or sex addiction
without naming abuse, victimssitting in the pews hear
something very different thanwhat the pastor may have
intended.
They hear stay, pray, obey, andlay.
They hear it's my fault.
I'm not trying hard enough.
I'm not doing the right things.
I need to try harder.
Perpetrators also hear, see, itis your fault.
(00:22):
You just need to fill in theblank, whatever they're
thinking.
These may not be what youintended, but it is without
question what happens.
Today is for you, pastors.
Whether you intended it or not,your silence or your misstating
of abuse enables continuedcoercive control.
It re-traumatizes survivors, andit distorts the gospel.
(00:46):
Welcome to Hey Tabby, thepodcast where we talk about the
hard things out loud with ouractual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here, andwe are not take two verses and
call me in the morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, and
(01:06):
I'm not your trauma therapist.
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now, let's get going.
So today, this episode is forthe pastors.
As you can tell, welcome to thisweek's episode of Hey Tabby.
(01:29):
I'm really glad that you'rehere, and I do hope some pastors
are listening.
And let me just be clear as Istart this off: not all pastors
are terrible or missing the markor any of that.
I know absolutely incrediblepastors who do a phenomenal job.
They are incredible men andwomen of God that do incredible
things.
Now, if you are freaking out alittle bit because I said men
(01:50):
and women, like a lot of peoplewith differing theologies listen
to this podcast.
And there are a lot of peoplethat will argue that women can
in fact be pastors, and they arepastors.
So I am just going to put it upfront here that this podcast is
for anybody that bears the titleof pastor, no matter where your
theology lies.
So if you are on the side ofthings that say women cannot be
(02:13):
pastors or overseers, or you'reon the side that women can be
pastors or overseers, the sameadvice and the same feedback
here is going to apply.
So I am talking to all pastors,anyone that bears the title of
pastor or minister or teaches inany sort of public place on the
Word of God.
And so I am going to talk aboutthat today.
(02:34):
So this one is for y'all.
I want to start with somestatistics here.
One in three relationships inyour congregation are or will be
facing domestic abuse andcoercive control.
Period.
That is the statistic.
Whether you like it or you don'tlike it, it is what it is.
That's what the research shows.
That means solidly one third ofyour church, of your
(02:57):
congregation, of therelationships in it are or will
be in dire need of help.
So if you think it's nothappening here, then you are not
asking the right questions.
And that's a whole other podcastepisode.
And I can refer you to someexperts in that that can give
you a little more information.
But I'm going to tell you it ishappening in your church.
(03:19):
And again, if you don't knowthat, then you need to ask
better questions.
I want to just say abuse is notrare.
We think that sometimes wethink, oh, this is a problem of
the world, but the statistics donot bear that out.
They just don't.
And so we have to start from thepremise of these folks are
sitting in my congregation.
And I would dare you, whenyou're standing in your pulpit,
(03:41):
start counting off by threes.
You know who the couples are forthe most part.
Even in a very large church,even if you can't quite see all
the people there.
I know I go to a very largechurch.
I'm certain the pastor cannotcount off the entire room full
of people, but he couldtheoretically go, well, if this
room seeks a thousand, then Ican just divide by three.
(04:02):
That would be 333 people in thatroom affected.
333 people in that room.
That's a huge number.
That's a huge number.
And if you have multipleservices, go multiply.
So even if you have a church of75, that's still one-third of
75, which makes it even moreegregious and more scary because
(04:24):
that is a big piece of yourchurch.
So I would invite you, first ofall, to just think about it from
this perspective, to understandthat the numbers are very high.
That said, you might think,well, why do I have to always
name abuse?
If I'm talking aboutrelationships, like what is the
point?
I can't mention it every singletime, but I'm going to tell you
(04:45):
why it's super important.
First of all, when pastors donot name abuse, you actually end
up preaching something you don'tintend, or at least I hope you
don't intend.
Maybe you do intend it.
And that again, another podcast.
When you preach unconditionalsubmission or when you preach
unforgiveness, if you are notgiving appropriate caveats and
(05:09):
you're not naming coercion,violence, anything like that,
abuse, destruction, then youembolden abusers and you
actually trap the victims.
You're actually putting bars onthe cage.
For example, if a marriagesermon emphasizes endurance,
prayer without saying thingsthat are related to safety
(05:30):
language, then you actually endup emboldening the abusers.
You aren't allowed to leave.
You have to do everything that Isay.
Even the pastor is saying thatyou have to submit to me.
And that becomes another bar onthe cage, another lock on the
cage that the victim can't getpast.
You actually make it worse forthe victim in that moment.
(05:52):
And when you talk about sex andyou do not again give caveats to
consent, to no coercion, to apornified mind, then again, you
are saying anything goes in thebedroom and you must be
subservient to your spouse.
That is really scary whensomebody has a sex addiction.
(06:14):
When pastors address pornographyor sex addiction without
acknowledging trauma, coercivesex within marriage, then the
victims internalize that.
And instead of finding freedom,they say, Oh, I guess I have to
do this.
So many pastors say that thewoman keeps the man from sinning
by having regular sex with him,even if she doesn't want to, or
(06:37):
even if he is asking for vileand demeaning things.
And despite the fact that makesme want to throw up in my mouth
a little bit, it happens sofrequently.
I have victims sit across fromme all the time and across from
other therapists that I knowfrom my other clinicians in my
practice and tell us thesestories that are utterly
(06:58):
harrowing.
And you may say, well, that'snot in my church, but are you
sure?
Are you sure none of theassistant pastors are preaching
that?
Are you sure the lead pastor isnot preaching that?
Are you sure you're notpreaching that in some
inadvertent way?
You really have to think aboutwhat you are saying.
I'm like, I would love to saythat that doesn't happen in this
day and age, but again, myclinical practice and the
(07:21):
victims that we serve tells me avery different story.
Submission itself is voluntary.
If you look at what that wordmeans in the Bible, we are to
submit to God, to each other,and then in relationships.
You have to be so careful whenyou are talking about these
things.
Because if you aren't, thenagain, you are saying, become a
(07:45):
slave.
Submission and subjugation arenot the same word.
Often I hear quoted someverbiage from Tim and Kathy
Keller's marriage book.
And it goes something like thisSex is the glue that holds
marriage together.
I love Tim Keller.
In a lot of ways, I listened tohis sermons while he was alive.
Very often I had for decades.
(08:07):
And so I am a big fan.
However, I think that this isone of the things I would say
don't agree with at all.
In fact, I couldn't agree lesswith it, actually.
Intercourse is a lovely part ofmarriage and it can absolutely
deepen intimacy and be part of ahealthy marriage, but it is not
the glue.
I think back to Sam Jolman onthis podcast saying that 83% of
(08:32):
couples will struggle withhaving sexual intercourse over
the course of their marriage.
83%.
That means it cannot be the gluethat is holding the marriage
together.
How could that actually bepossible?
If 83% of people are going tostruggle, if that is the sum
total of your glue, you are inso much trouble.
(08:52):
So much trouble.
So it stands to reason that it'snot true.
I also look at the Gottmanresearch.
Now, however you might feelabout licensed people doing
research, it's just observation.
And it's one of my favoriteresearch studies because of the
fact that what they did for tensof thousands of couples was just
observe them.
What worked, what didn't work,what was happening in the
(09:14):
relationship.
And I can tell you unequivocallythat intercourse was not the
glue.
There's a million other thingsthat make couples masters at
relationship and that holdrelationships together.
Intercourse is not one of them.
It is part of a beautifulmarriage, and it definitely
depicts some beauty betweenChrist and the church, like the
(09:35):
Bible says, but it's not theglue.
And when pastors language itthat way, it over-inflates the
importance of intercourse and itdeeply undervalues true, full
relational intimacy, beingknown.
That is such an important thing,right?
As neuropsychiatrist KurtThompson says, we come into the
(09:58):
world looking for someone,looking for us.
That meets its fullestfulfillment in God, but there is
something of that supposed to bemet by our spouse.
And so when we say thatintercourse alone, sex alone, is
the glue, then we have narrowedour relationship in a very
dangerous way.
And so when you are up therefrom the pulpit saying that, you
(10:21):
are telling women who arewithholding sex or men who are
withholding sex for very goodreasons and that they are
destroying their relationships.
Now, I think it's actually quitedifferent.
If someone is withholding sexfor a very good reason, like
coercive control, demeaningbehavior, infidelity, abuse, any
of that type of stuff, then theyare doing the right thing
(10:42):
because they're holding theirpartner accountable and setting
reasonable boundaries.
Sounds very godly to me,actually.
And those are questions youshould be asking in counseling
when you are talking to thesecouples.
And again, that's a whole otherthing.
You should not be counselingcouples that are in destructive
relationships.
I have other podcasts on thattopic, and there's a lot to be
(11:03):
said about it.
We don't have time for thathere, but I will tell you abuse
is not a marriage problem.
It causes marriage problems.
And that is a quote from myfriend Leslie Varnick.
Another one of my favoritequotes is this, and pastors,
please, please hear me.
What hurts victims most is notthe cruelty of the oppressor,
(11:24):
but the silence of thebystander.
And that is a quote fromHolocaust survivor Ellie Weisel.
You are complicit when you donot include information or
caveats about abuse ordestruction in your sermon.
You are the bystander.
You are complicit.
What you are saying to aperpetrator is that you are
(11:45):
fine.
Keep doing what you're doing.
Go on and sin.
And what you're saying to thevictim is you do not matter.
Neither of those things isgodly.
Neither of them.
And I'm just going to say itagain: neither of those things
is godly.
If you as a pastor are justletting someone walk in sin,
you're a terrible shepherd.
(12:05):
You just are.
And if you're letting someone beoppressed, again, you're a
terrible shepherd.
You are missing your callingcompletely in that.
And look, this isn't hyperbole.
Again, your role is a shepherd,caring for the spiritual
well-being of the flock.
Isn't it terrible that someonemight be a goat and they're
going, but Lord, Lord, didn't IXYZ?
(12:28):
Because I was a big donor, or Idid all these things.
I did this in your name.
And Jesus looks at them andgoes, Depart from me, I didn't
know you.
That should terrify you as apastor.
Absolutely terrifying you.
That is not what you want said.
You want to be confronting thisin someone's life.
Hey, I think you're walking offa cliff.
Hey, I think you think you're asheep, but at home, you're
(12:50):
goating it right up, buddy.
And I don't mean greatest of alltime.
I mean depart from me, I neverknew you goating.
That is stuff you should besaying.
It shouldn't be limited to someoutside counselor.
It shouldn't be limited to somecare pastor.
It should be you.
And you have to say that stufffrom the pulpit.
There are winsome ways toinclude this.
(13:10):
And we'll get to that in just aminute.
Another role of the pastor is toteach the word of God.
You are supposed to handle itwell.
You are supposed to teach it.
But when you don't talk aboutthe sin that needs to be
addressed, or you don't talkabout how God hates oppression,
then you are leaving stuff offthe table.
(13:32):
You have to realize that thereis a power differential from the
pulpit to the pew, or to thepadded chair, or to the round
table, or to the house church.
If you're the leader, you havemore power than everybody else.
In this modern evangelicalchurch, many parishioners have
been conditioned to just trustthe man of God or the woman of
(13:55):
God who is speaking from thepulpit.
By virtue of your positionalone, you have more power.
And you have to take thatseriously.
I have yet to meet a pastor whowent through seminary and was
taught at all about powerdifferentials.
Now, maybe your seminary is theexception.
Maybe it has started it, and Ijust don't know.
(14:16):
But I've talked to a lot ofpeople over the years, and I
have yet to hear anything aboutthat.
That means whether you like itor not, your words carry more
weight than just about anybodyelse in that room.
By virtue of your position, youhave more power.
And I just can't say thatenough.
We see this in scripture inJames 3:1.
(14:37):
Not many of you should becometeachers, my fellow believers,
because you know that we whoteach will be judged more
strictly.
As someone who teaches andteaches women and honestly
teaches some in the counselingroom, like psychoeducation, this
terrifies me.
I am constantly putting myselfbefore the Lord and saying,
please, Jesus, I want to teachrightly.
(14:59):
I want to teach your wordrightly, I want to exegete your
word rightly.
Please, please, please, becausethis verse fills me with a holy
fear.
Like fear can be a gift, man.
I don't want to be on the wrongside of the living God, and I
hope you don't either.
And we also can't forgetProverbs 18, 21.
The tongue can bring death orlife.
(15:22):
Those who love to talk will reapthe consequences.
Are you bringing death or lifewith what you say or what you
don't say?
You know, like we talk aboutsins of commission and omission
all the time in the evangelicalchurch.
This is a sin of omission whenyou do not talk about abuse when
you should.
(15:42):
And I know I'm sounding verypassionate because I am, and I'm
gonna tell you why.
I have sat with too many womenin particular.
I don't sit with as many men inthis position, but I know they
exist, who have been indestructive relationships that
are coercively controlling andheard from the pulpit condoning
(16:06):
what is happening to them invarious ways by the pastor not
talking about it.
Very recently, I was at ateaching where the pastor was
talking about working withsexual sin.
And in that particular teaching,one of the things that was
stated was if you are burning inlust for each other, can't keep
your hands off each other, thenyou need to move the wedding
date up.
(16:27):
You need to shorten yourengagement.
And I had a real problem withthat because I have sat across
from far too many women who weretold that, and who were told
that you were burning in lust,and so you need to move up your
engagement.
When in reality, what washappening was sexual coercion.
They were being pressured intodoing things that they did not
want to do.
(16:47):
And because they had been toldthat the man was the leader and
they had to submit to him evenbefore they were married to him,
that they did not feel like theyhad a no.
And so when they confess totheir pastor, it's gone further
than I think we should, thepastor goes, Oh, you're burning
in lust and doesn't ask thatfollow-up question.
Now I asked the question afterthis particular teaching of the
(17:09):
person that taught it.
And he said, Oh, yeah, we askabout abuse.
And I said, Well, you reallyneeded to say it from up there.
This is what I see.
And he said, Oh, no, I don'thave to do that.
I have a lot of points that Ihad to make, and I just didn't
have space.
And I was stunned.
And I will tell you that itwasn't long after that I heard
stories from women in the roomwho knew who I was and who
(17:31):
sometimes listen to thispodcast, that they had gotten
counsel like that and hadmarried sexually exploitative
men, men who had sex addictionsand then sexually abused them
over the course of theirmarriage.
And this wasn't just one or twowomen that I heard from.
I heard from at least five inthat session alone to not
(17:52):
mention it is absolutecomplicitness.
You are complicit when you don'tsay it.
And women are harmed because ofit, and men who are in the same
situation are harmed because ofit.
And you are either saying sin isokay without saying sin is okay,
or you are heaping coals ontothe head of someone who is
(18:13):
already embroiled in shamebecause they think it's their
fault, and it's not.
And you may know that in yourheart of hearts, but when you
don't say it out loud, you alsoembolden every other person in
the room.
And this was a conference that Iwas at, and there are many
pastors in that room.
And without that caveat, manyare going to go back to their
churches and teach exactly likethis.
(18:34):
The New King James puts Proverbs18, 21 this way: Death and life
are in the power of the tongue.
And if you have never worked inabuse, you don't know how close
death is all the time.
Oh, but he didn't hit her.
There hasn't been physicalviolence.
Well, again, I submit to youthat unless you can take your
brain out of your body and putit in a jar, it's all physical.
(18:54):
I'm fairly certain that's a bodypart, and there's a fine line
between words and actions.
So it may be a short period oftime until there is physical
violence in the way that you'rethinking of it.
Death and life are in the powerof the tongue.
What are you bringing?
What are you bringing to this asyou teach this?
Survivors often experienceserious spiritual confusion as
(19:17):
well after hearing teachingslike this that don't include all
the things that they need to.
You're told to forgive, butthey're never told to seek
safety.
Oh, you have to forgive.
We need to reconcile therelationship.
Well, no, you don't.
First of all, forgiveness andreconciliation, they don't
always go together.
We can talk about that inanother podcast as well.
They're often told honor themarriage covenant, but abuse has
(19:38):
already broken that covenant.
But if you're not askingquestions about abuse, then
you're heaping coals on the headof someone who is not sinning.
They are told to marry fast sothey don't burn in lust when
what's happening might be sexualcoercion or even sex addiction.
That's not cool.
You know, do you not love yourbrothers and sisters enough to
(19:59):
ask good questions?
In my book, Body and Soul,Healed and Whole, I actually
talk about how Christian womenwho have been harmed sexually
end up feeling alienated notonly from their bodies, but from
God Himself.
What they say when theirsuffering is minimized or
spiritualized is if this is God,I want nothing to do with him.
(20:20):
I cannot tell you how many womenhave deconstructed right out of
the church and don't say theyweren't really believers.
Don't say that.
And it's my hope that they willreconstruct with Jesus.
But that harm is so deep, sodeep.
Trauma creates disconnectionfrom both God and self.
And pastors can unintentionallyreinforce that disconnect by
(20:43):
avoiding this topic.
And look, you don't have to putin 14 points on coercive
control.
There are a few things you cansay, and again, I'm gonna get to
that in just a minute.
What I want to remind you of isthat the gospel demands the
truth.
The gospel is supposed to be thegood news.
The gospel, Jesus says, My yokeis easy and my burden is light.
(21:05):
Abuse is neither of thosethings.
If we're preaching the gospel,then we ought to be preaching
real Jesus.
Abuse thrives in secrecy.
So silence actually protects thecoercive controllers and the
perpetrators, not the victims.
Jesus consistently exposedoppression and restored the
dignity of those who were harmedby power.
(21:26):
Just read the New Testament.
Read the Old Testament.
It is literally everywhere.
When the church avoids hardtruths, it distorts the message
of justice, mercy, andrestoration.
We are supposed to look likeJesus.
And when we are not looking likeJesus, then we need to talk
about it.
We need to talk about it.
(21:46):
Pastors have both a moral and aspiritual duty to speak truth
that protects the vulnerable andconfronts the misuse of power.
And there are entire systemsthat do not understand power and
they do not understand howpastors are using power.
I will give you Dr.
Diane Langberg's quote on this.
Jesus did not die for systems,he died for the people in them.
(22:10):
To protect the system and tosay, this is the way we have
always done it is not okay.
It's not okay.
We may not have talked aboutabuse like this 20 years ago
that we should have been.
But now that we are, saysomething.
There's plenty of caveats thatyou give during sermons on all
kinds of things.
You can give a couple ondestructive relationships.
(22:32):
And it's not an excuse that youdon't have time.
You do manage to put in othersentences that you find
important.
The reality here is that manypastors don't think it's that
important.
And that is a problem.
If one third of yourcongregation is struggling with
this, whether they are theperpetrator or the victim, then
(22:53):
you owe it to your congregationto make sure that you're talking
about this.
So what can we do?
First of all, name itexplicitly.
It's not that hard whenpreaching on marriage, include
phrases like if your spouse usescontrol, coercion, fear, harm,
this is not God's design.
We have people here who can helpyou.
And then you send them over toyour advocates that hopefully
(23:15):
you have had trained.
If you're worried aboutpremarital sex, you can talk
about that because yes, let'shave a godly sex life.
Let's do this well.
But also note that if sexualcoercion is taking place, if you
feel pressured or talked intodoing more than you are
comfortable with, then that isnot appropriate.
And that is not your sin.
That's the coercer's sin.
(23:37):
And that's something that shouldbe stated.
A woman is not a man's Suboxoneto keep him from getting a hit
of porn.
Sex addiction is far morecomplex.
And it's not even about the sex.
But again, that's anotherpodcast.
Integrate some trauma-informedlanguage.
Look, you are not being woke orwhatever to use appropriate
(23:59):
language.
This is just when we know more,we say more.
When you went to seminary, youdidn't know a bunch of words,
and now you do.
Some of them are in differentlanguages, like Greek or
Aramaic.
And now you use those words.
So I'm going to give you sometrauma-informed words, and now
you can use those too.
So something like if you'veexperienced coercion or abuse,
or if your relationship isdestructive, this passage is not
(24:21):
a call to endure harm.
We do not condone that.
There you go.
That's it.
It's one sentence.
I don't even think it took awhole second for me to say it.
Refer to resources.
Mention domestic violencehotlines.
Mention your care team if youhave one that's got training.
Mention resources like call topeace.
You can even have things wherepeople can go pick up a flyer
(24:42):
after you mention it.
You don't even have to have aton of information that you say
from the pulpit, just like, hey,there are organizations to help
you.
We can get you connected.
Avoid implying mutuality andabuse.
Abuse, again, is not arelationship problem.
It causes them.
And abuse is not mutual.
It can't be.
Abuse cannot be mutual becausethe coercive controller has the
(25:05):
power.
They have the power and control.
And so it's not mutual.
It's not.
Abuse is a one-sided misuse ofpower.
It's really important to makesure that you say that.
And that you don't mutualize it.
It's not a toxic relationship,although that is toxic.
It is what it is, and we have tocall it what it is.
(25:27):
We also want to consult trainedadvocates or therapists.
You can go through the Call toPeace Ministries Church
Partnership Program.
You get advocates in that case.
You get a church partnerliaison.
It's really helpful in creatingpolicies and having the things
that you need.
You can also reach out to alocal therapist that knows what
they're doing.
You can reach out to me.
I consult with churches all thetime.
(25:49):
You can do a lot of differentthings to help get some
knowledge, to help get someunderstanding and to create a
system where you are helpingpeople walk in the fullness of
God.
Right.
We're calling perpetrators torepentance and accountability.
We are not just leaving theirsouls up for grabs and we are
protecting victims.
It sounds like a lot, and insome ways it is, but you can say
(26:11):
simple things from the pulpitand set up systems that can
actually be really protective.
I just want to remind you thatabuse, like any sin, doesn't
stay stagnant.
It escalates.
I cannot tell you how manyvictims have told me it wasn't
this bad 25 years ago.
Well, of course it wasn't.
But unchecked sin is alwaysgoing to grow.
(26:32):
Always.
And so you are right and good tocall it out.
Some abusers also misuse God'sword.
The sword of the spirit is notmeant to wound and stab their
spouse.
And the thing that can make ithard is that sometimes the
perpetrators are people that youlike, that you're friends with,
that you've known for a longtime.
(26:53):
You're just not married to them.
So you didn't see everythingthat was happening in the house.
And so you have to hold openthat things are happening that
maybe you don't know about, evenwith people that you super like,
even with people that supermaybe tied a lot.
And you have to be open more toGod's truth than you are to
anything else.
I really want to invite you tomodel courage by really naming
(27:16):
these things, naming them inevery sermon on marriage, every
sermon on sex.
And you should be preachingthose types of sermons.
You should be teaching entireones about harmful things and
oppression and calling out thatsin.
But also when you're teaching onhealthy marriage or healthy sex,
always have these caveats.
They are not hard to add, theyare not long to add, but they
(27:38):
will protect people far morethan you could ever imagine.
You cannot shepherd what yourefuse to name and what you
refuse to see.
And God will hold youaccountable.
I fear that again daily.
And I hope that you do too.
And I also want to encourage youto listen to survivors.
Talk to the ones in yourcongregation safely and don't
(28:01):
tell their business, okay, butdo get their experience.
Ask them, hey, look, if you'veheard sermons that made you feel
unseen or that maybe I had amisstep, God sees you, he knows,
and he loves you.
And can you please tell me whathappened?
Can you please tell me yourimpressions of it so I can
understand?
And you might be thinking, Lord,if I ask that question, then all
(28:22):
heck will break loose.
And that's not true either.
It's just not, it's not true.
So I want to encourage you, bebold, be courageous, and
actually trust Jesus.
And if the Lord is in this andhe is not a God of oppression,
and the Bible very clearly sayshe is not, then he is gonna give
you what you need to walkthrough this and he will give
you discernment.
The book of James also talksabout wisdom.
(28:43):
And if you are lacking it, youcan ask for it, and God will
give it to you liberally andwithout reproach, which means
he's gonna give you a bunch andhe is not mad about it.
I will provide links to Call toPeace Ministries, the National
Domestic Violence Hotline, andto my book in case it's helpful
for you.
I really want to encourage youto defend the weak and the
(29:06):
fatherless and uphold the causeof the poor and the oppressed.
That's from the Psalms.
Thank you for joining me thisweek on Hey Tabby.
I know I said a lot, but it'ssuch important stuff.
And I know you may think, well,I can't mention it all the time,
but I promise you, you areharming people if you don't.
And I can't tell you the numberof women that have fallen into
(29:28):
my arms after teachings justlike this and sobbed and told me
stories that would curl yourtoes.
I hope that you choose to lovepeople well, both perpetrators
and victims.
And that you start saying thethings that need to be said from
the pulpit.
Even if it's just a couplesentences, please don't leave it
out.
Thank you again for joining methis week.
(29:51):
I hope to see you here next timeon our next episode of Hey
Tabby.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of Hey Tabby.
If you're looking for a resourcethat I mentioned in the show and
you want to check out the shownotes, head on over to
tabithawestbrook.com forwardslash hey tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-C-I, and youcan grab it there.
(30:13):
I look forward to seeing younext time.
When pastors teach on marriage or sex addiction
without naming abuse, victimssitting in the pews hear
something very different thanwhat the pastor may have
intended.
They hear stay, pray, obey, andlay.
They hear it's my fault.
I'm not trying hard enough.
I'm not doing the right things.
I need to try harder.
Perpetrators also hear, see, itis your fault.
(00:22):
You just need to fill in theblank, whatever they're
thinking.
These may not be what youintended, but it is without
question what happens.
Today is for you, pastors.
Whether you intended it or not,your silence or your misstating
of abuse enables continuedcoercive control.
It re-traumatizes survivors, andit distorts the gospel.
(00:46):
Welcome to Hey Tabby, thepodcast where we talk about the
hard things out loud with ouractual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here, andwe are not take two verses and
call me in the morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, and
(01:06):
I'm not your trauma therapist.
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now, let's get going.
So today, this episode is forthe pastors.
As you can tell, welcome to thisweek's episode of Hey Tabby.
(01:29):
I'm really glad that you'rehere, and I do hope some pastors
are listening.
And let me just be clear as Istart this off: not all pastors
are terrible or missing the markor any of that.
I know absolutely incrediblepastors who do a phenomenal job.
They are incredible men andwomen of God that do incredible
things.
Now, if you are freaking out alittle bit because I said men
(01:50):
and women, like a lot of peoplewith differing theologies listen
to this podcast.
And there are a lot of peoplethat will argue that women can
in fact be pastors, and they arepastors.
So I am just going to put it upfront here that this podcast is
for anybody that bears the titleof pastor, no matter where your
theology lies.
So if you are on the side ofthings that say women cannot be
(02:13):
pastors or overseers, or you'reon the side that women can be
pastors or overseers, the sameadvice and the same feedback
here is going to apply.
So I am talking to all pastors,anyone that bears the title of
pastor or minister or teaches inany sort of public place on the
Word of God.
And so I am going to talk aboutthat today.
(02:34):
So this one is for y'all.
I want to start with somestatistics here.
One in three relationships inyour congregation are or will be
facing domestic abuse andcoercive control.
Period.
That is the statistic.
Whether you like it or you don'tlike it, it is what it is.
That's what the research shows.
That means solidly one third ofyour church, of your
(02:57):
congregation, of therelationships in it are or will
be in dire need of help.
So if you think it's nothappening here, then you are not
asking the right questions.
And that's a whole other podcastepisode.
And I can refer you to someexperts in that that can give
you a little more information.
But I'm going to tell you it ishappening in your church.
(03:19):
And again, if you don't knowthat, then you need to ask
better questions.
I want to just say abuse is notrare.
We think that sometimes wethink, oh, this is a problem of
the world, but the statistics donot bear that out.
They just don't.
And so we have to start from thepremise of these folks are
sitting in my congregation.
And I would dare you, whenyou're standing in your pulpit,
(03:41):
start counting off by threes.
You know who the couples are forthe most part.
Even in a very large church,even if you can't quite see all
the people there.
I know I go to a very largechurch.
I'm certain the pastor cannotcount off the entire room full
of people, but he couldtheoretically go, well, if this
room seeks a thousand, then Ican just divide by three.
(04:02):
That would be 333 people in thatroom affected.
333 people in that room.
That's a huge number.
That's a huge number.
And if you have multipleservices, go multiply.
So even if you have a church of75, that's still one-third of
75, which makes it even moreegregious and more scary because
(04:24):
that is a big piece of yourchurch.
So I would invite you, first ofall, to just think about it from
this perspective, to understandthat the numbers are very high.
That said, you might think,well, why do I have to always
name abuse?
If I'm talking aboutrelationships, like what is the
point?
I can't mention it every singletime, but I'm going to tell you
(04:45):
why it's super important.
First of all, when pastors donot name abuse, you actually end
up preaching something you don'tintend, or at least I hope you
don't intend.
Maybe you do intend it.
And that again, another podcast.
When you preach unconditionalsubmission or when you preach
unforgiveness, if you are notgiving appropriate caveats and
(05:09):
you're not naming coercion,violence, anything like that,
abuse, destruction, then youembolden abusers and you
actually trap the victims.
You're actually putting bars onthe cage.
For example, if a marriagesermon emphasizes endurance,
prayer without saying thingsthat are related to safety
(05:30):
language, then you actually endup emboldening the abusers.
You aren't allowed to leave.
You have to do everything that Isay.
Even the pastor is saying thatyou have to submit to me.
And that becomes another bar onthe cage, another lock on the
cage that the victim can't getpast.
You actually make it worse forthe victim in that moment.
(05:52):
And when you talk about sex andyou do not again give caveats to
consent, to no coercion, to apornified mind, then again, you
are saying anything goes in thebedroom and you must be
subservient to your spouse.
That is really scary whensomebody has a sex addiction.
(06:14):
When pastors address pornographyor sex addiction without
acknowledging trauma, coercivesex within marriage, then the
victims internalize that.
And instead of finding freedom,they say, Oh, I guess I have to
do this.
So many pastors say that thewoman keeps the man from sinning
by having regular sex with him,even if she doesn't want to, or
(06:37):
even if he is asking for vileand demeaning things.
And despite the fact that makesme want to throw up in my mouth
a little bit, it happens sofrequently.
I have victims sit across fromme all the time and across from
other therapists that I knowfrom my other clinicians in my
practice and tell us thesestories that are utterly
(06:58):
harrowing.
And you may say, well, that'snot in my church, but are you
sure?
Are you sure none of theassistant pastors are preaching
that?
Are you sure the lead pastor isnot preaching that?
Are you sure you're notpreaching that in some
inadvertent way?
You really have to think aboutwhat you are saying.
I'm like, I would love to saythat that doesn't happen in this
day and age, but again, myclinical practice and the
(07:21):
victims that we serve tells me avery different story.
Submission itself is voluntary.
If you look at what that wordmeans in the Bible, we are to
submit to God, to each other,and then in relationships.
You have to be so careful whenyou are talking about these
things.
Because if you aren't, thenagain, you are saying, become a
(07:45):
slave.
Submission and subjugation arenot the same word.
Often I hear quoted someverbiage from Tim and Kathy
Keller's marriage book.
And it goes something like thisSex is the glue that holds
marriage together.
I love Tim Keller.
In a lot of ways, I listened tohis sermons while he was alive.
Very often I had for decades.
(08:07):
And so I am a big fan.
However, I think that this isone of the things I would say
don't agree with at all.
In fact, I couldn't agree lesswith it, actually.
Intercourse is a lovely part ofmarriage and it can absolutely
deepen intimacy and be part of ahealthy marriage, but it is not
the glue.
I think back to Sam Jolman onthis podcast saying that 83% of
(08:32):
couples will struggle withhaving sexual intercourse over
the course of their marriage.
83%.
That means it cannot be the gluethat is holding the marriage
together.
How could that actually bepossible?
If 83% of people are going tostruggle, if that is the sum
total of your glue, you are inso much trouble.
(08:52):
So much trouble.
So it stands to reason that it'snot true.
I also look at the Gottmanresearch.
Now, however you might feelabout licensed people doing
research, it's just observation.
And it's one of my favoriteresearch studies because of the
fact that what they did for tensof thousands of couples was just
observe them.
What worked, what didn't work,what was happening in the
(09:14):
relationship.
And I can tell you unequivocallythat intercourse was not the
glue.
There's a million other thingsthat make couples masters at
relationship and that holdrelationships together.
Intercourse is not one of them.
It is part of a beautifulmarriage, and it definitely
depicts some beauty betweenChrist and the church, like the
(09:35):
Bible says, but it's not theglue.
And when pastors language itthat way, it over-inflates the
importance of intercourse and itdeeply undervalues true, full
relational intimacy, beingknown.
That is such an important thing,right?
As neuropsychiatrist KurtThompson says, we come into the
(09:58):
world looking for someone,looking for us.
That meets its fullestfulfillment in God, but there is
something of that supposed to bemet by our spouse.
And so when we say thatintercourse alone, sex alone, is
the glue, then we have narrowedour relationship in a very
dangerous way.
And so when you are up therefrom the pulpit saying that, you
(10:21):
are telling women who arewithholding sex or men who are
withholding sex for very goodreasons and that they are
destroying their relationships.
Now, I think it's actually quitedifferent.
If someone is withholding sexfor a very good reason, like
coercive control, demeaningbehavior, infidelity, abuse, any
of that type of stuff, then theyare doing the right thing
(10:42):
because they're holding theirpartner accountable and setting
reasonable boundaries.
Sounds very godly to me,actually.
And those are questions youshould be asking in counseling
when you are talking to thesecouples.
And again, that's a whole otherthing.
You should not be counselingcouples that are in destructive
relationships.
I have other podcasts on thattopic, and there's a lot to be
(11:03):
said about it.
We don't have time for thathere, but I will tell you abuse
is not a marriage problem.
It causes marriage problems.
And that is a quote from myfriend Leslie Varnick.
Another one of my favoritequotes is this, and pastors,
please, please hear me.
What hurts victims most is notthe cruelty of the oppressor,
(11:24):
but the silence of thebystander.
And that is a quote fromHolocaust survivor Ellie Weisel.
You are complicit when you donot include information or
caveats about abuse ordestruction in your sermon.
You are the bystander.
You are complicit.
What you are saying to aperpetrator is that you are
(11:45):
fine.
Keep doing what you're doing.
Go on and sin.
And what you're saying to thevictim is you do not matter.
Neither of those things isgodly.
Neither of them.
And I'm just going to say itagain: neither of those things
is godly.
If you as a pastor are justletting someone walk in sin,
you're a terrible shepherd.
(12:05):
You just are.
And if you're letting someone beoppressed, again, you're a
terrible shepherd.
You are missing your callingcompletely in that.
And look, this isn't hyperbole.
Again, your role is a shepherd,caring for the spiritual
well-being of the flock.
Isn't it terrible that someonemight be a goat and they're
going, but Lord, Lord, didn't IXYZ?
(12:28):
Because I was a big donor, or Idid all these things.
I did this in your name.
And Jesus looks at them andgoes, Depart from me, I didn't
know you.
That should terrify you as apastor.
Absolutely terrifying you.
That is not what you want said.
You want to be confronting thisin someone's life.
Hey, I think you're walking offa cliff.
Hey, I think you think you're asheep, but at home, you're
(12:50):
goating it right up, buddy.
And I don't mean greatest of alltime.
I mean depart from me, I neverknew you goating.
That is stuff you should besaying.
It shouldn't be limited to someoutside counselor.
It shouldn't be limited to somecare pastor.
It should be you.
And you have to say that stufffrom the pulpit.
There are winsome ways toinclude this.
(13:10):
And we'll get to that in just aminute.
Another role of the pastor is toteach the word of God.
You are supposed to handle itwell.
You are supposed to teach it.
But when you don't talk aboutthe sin that needs to be
addressed, or you don't talkabout how God hates oppression,
then you are leaving stuff offthe table.
(13:32):
You have to realize that thereis a power differential from the
pulpit to the pew, or to thepadded chair, or to the round
table, or to the house church.
If you're the leader, you havemore power than everybody else.
In this modern evangelicalchurch, many parishioners have
been conditioned to just trustthe man of God or the woman of
(13:55):
God who is speaking from thepulpit.
By virtue of your positionalone, you have more power.
And you have to take thatseriously.
I have yet to meet a pastor whowent through seminary and was
taught at all about powerdifferentials.
Now, maybe your seminary is theexception.
Maybe it has started it, and Ijust don't know.
(14:16):
But I've talked to a lot ofpeople over the years, and I
have yet to hear anything aboutthat.
That means whether you like itor not, your words carry more
weight than just about anybodyelse in that room.
By virtue of your position, youhave more power.
And I just can't say thatenough.
We see this in scripture inJames 3:1.
(14:37):
Not many of you should becometeachers, my fellow believers,
because you know that we whoteach will be judged more
strictly.
As someone who teaches andteaches women and honestly
teaches some in the counselingroom, like psychoeducation, this
terrifies me.
I am constantly putting myselfbefore the Lord and saying,
please, Jesus, I want to teachrightly.
(14:59):
I want to teach your wordrightly, I want to exegete your
word rightly.
Please, please, please, becausethis verse fills me with a holy
fear.
Like fear can be a gift, man.
I don't want to be on the wrongside of the living God, and I
hope you don't either.
And we also can't forgetProverbs 18, 21.
The tongue can bring death orlife.
(15:22):
Those who love to talk will reapthe consequences.
Are you bringing death or lifewith what you say or what you
don't say?
You know, like we talk aboutsins of commission and omission
all the time in the evangelicalchurch.
This is a sin of omission whenyou do not talk about abuse when
you should.
(15:42):
And I know I'm sounding verypassionate because I am, and I'm
gonna tell you why.
I have sat with too many womenin particular.
I don't sit with as many men inthis position, but I know they
exist, who have been indestructive relationships that
are coercively controlling andheard from the pulpit condoning
(16:06):
what is happening to them invarious ways by the pastor not
talking about it.
Very recently, I was at ateaching where the pastor was
talking about working withsexual sin.
And in that particular teaching,one of the things that was
stated was if you are burning inlust for each other, can't keep
your hands off each other, thenyou need to move the wedding
date up.
(16:27):
You need to shorten yourengagement.
And I had a real problem withthat because I have sat across
from far too many women who weretold that, and who were told
that you were burning in lust,and so you need to move up your
engagement.
When in reality, what washappening was sexual coercion.
They were being pressured intodoing things that they did not
want to do.
(16:47):
And because they had been toldthat the man was the leader and
they had to submit to him evenbefore they were married to him,
that they did not feel like theyhad a no.
And so when they confess totheir pastor, it's gone further
than I think we should, thepastor goes, Oh, you're burning
in lust and doesn't ask thatfollow-up question.
Now I asked the question afterthis particular teaching of the
(17:09):
person that taught it.
And he said, Oh, yeah, we askabout abuse.
And I said, Well, you reallyneeded to say it from up there.
This is what I see.
And he said, Oh, no, I don'thave to do that.
I have a lot of points that Ihad to make, and I just didn't
have space.
And I was stunned.
And I will tell you that itwasn't long after that I heard
stories from women in the roomwho knew who I was and who
(17:31):
sometimes listen to thispodcast, that they had gotten
counsel like that and hadmarried sexually exploitative
men, men who had sex addictionsand then sexually abused them
over the course of theirmarriage.
And this wasn't just one or twowomen that I heard from.
I heard from at least five inthat session alone to not
(17:52):
mention it is absolutecomplicitness.
You are complicit when you don'tsay it.
And women are harmed because ofit, and men who are in the same
situation are harmed because ofit.
And you are either saying sin isokay without saying sin is okay,
or you are heaping coals ontothe head of someone who is
(18:13):
already embroiled in shamebecause they think it's their
fault, and it's not.
And you may know that in yourheart of hearts, but when you
don't say it out loud, you alsoembolden every other person in
the room.
And this was a conference that Iwas at, and there are many
pastors in that room.
And without that caveat, manyare going to go back to their
churches and teach exactly likethis.
(18:34):
The New King James puts Proverbs18, 21 this way: Death and life
are in the power of the tongue.
And if you have never worked inabuse, you don't know how close
death is all the time.
Oh, but he didn't hit her.
There hasn't been physicalviolence.
Well, again, I submit to youthat unless you can take your
brain out of your body and putit in a jar, it's all physical.
(18:54):
I'm fairly certain that's a bodypart, and there's a fine line
between words and actions.
So it may be a short period oftime until there is physical
violence in the way that you'rethinking of it.
Death and life are in the powerof the tongue.
What are you bringing?
What are you bringing to this asyou teach this?
Survivors often experienceserious spiritual confusion as
(19:17):
well after hearing teachingslike this that don't include all
the things that they need to.
You're told to forgive, butthey're never told to seek
safety.
Oh, you have to forgive.
We need to reconcile therelationship.
Well, no, you don't.
First of all, forgiveness andreconciliation, they don't
always go together.
We can talk about that inanother podcast as well.
They're often told honor themarriage covenant, but abuse has
(19:38):
already broken that covenant.
But if you're not askingquestions about abuse, then
you're heaping coals on the headof someone who is not sinning.
They are told to marry fast sothey don't burn in lust when
what's happening might be sexualcoercion or even sex addiction.
That's not cool.
You know, do you not love yourbrothers and sisters enough to
(19:59):
ask good questions?
In my book, Body and Soul,Healed and Whole, I actually
talk about how Christian womenwho have been harmed sexually
end up feeling alienated notonly from their bodies, but from
God Himself.
What they say when theirsuffering is minimized or
spiritualized is if this is God,I want nothing to do with him.
(20:20):
I cannot tell you how many womenhave deconstructed right out of
the church and don't say theyweren't really believers.
Don't say that.
And it's my hope that they willreconstruct with Jesus.
But that harm is so deep, sodeep.
Trauma creates disconnectionfrom both God and self.
And pastors can unintentionallyreinforce that disconnect by
(20:43):
avoiding this topic.
And look, you don't have to putin 14 points on coercive
control.
There are a few things you cansay, and again, I'm gonna get to
that in just a minute.
What I want to remind you of isthat the gospel demands the
truth.
The gospel is supposed to be thegood news.
The gospel, Jesus says, My yokeis easy and my burden is light.
(21:05):
Abuse is neither of thosethings.
If we're preaching the gospel,then we ought to be preaching
real Jesus.
Abuse thrives in secrecy.
So silence actually protects thecoercive controllers and the
perpetrators, not the victims.
Jesus consistently exposedoppression and restored the
dignity of those who were harmedby power.
(21:26):
Just read the New Testament.
Read the Old Testament.
It is literally everywhere.
When the church avoids hardtruths, it distorts the message
of justice, mercy, andrestoration.
We are supposed to look likeJesus.
And when we are not looking likeJesus, then we need to talk
about it.
We need to talk about it.
(21:46):
Pastors have both a moral and aspiritual duty to speak truth
that protects the vulnerable andconfronts the misuse of power.
And there are entire systemsthat do not understand power and
they do not understand howpastors are using power.
I will give you Dr.
Diane Langberg's quote on this.
Jesus did not die for systems,he died for the people in them.
(22:10):
To protect the system and tosay, this is the way we have
always done it is not okay.
It's not okay.
We may not have talked aboutabuse like this 20 years ago
that we should have been.
But now that we are, saysomething.
There's plenty of caveats thatyou give during sermons on all
kinds of things.
You can give a couple ondestructive relationships.
(22:32):
And it's not an excuse that youdon't have time.
You do manage to put in othersentences that you find
important.
The reality here is that manypastors don't think it's that
important.
And that is a problem.
If one third of yourcongregation is struggling with
this, whether they are theperpetrator or the victim, then
(22:53):
you owe it to your congregationto make sure that you're talking
about this.
So what can we do?
First of all, name itexplicitly.
It's not that hard whenpreaching on marriage, include
phrases like if your spouse usescontrol, coercion, fear, harm,
this is not God's design.
We have people here who can helpyou.
And then you send them over toyour advocates that hopefully
(23:15):
you have had trained.
If you're worried aboutpremarital sex, you can talk
about that because yes, let'shave a godly sex life.
Let's do this well.
But also note that if sexualcoercion is taking place, if you
feel pressured or talked intodoing more than you are
comfortable with, then that isnot appropriate.
And that is not your sin.
That's the coercer's sin.
(23:37):
And that's something that shouldbe stated.
A woman is not a man's Suboxoneto keep him from getting a hit
of porn.
Sex addiction is far morecomplex.
And it's not even about the sex.
But again, that's anotherpodcast.
Integrate some trauma-informedlanguage.
Look, you are not being woke orwhatever to use appropriate
(23:59):
language.
This is just when we know more,we say more.
When you went to seminary, youdidn't know a bunch of words,
and now you do.
Some of them are in differentlanguages, like Greek or
Aramaic.
And now you use those words.
So I'm going to give you sometrauma-informed words, and now
you can use those too.
So something like if you'veexperienced coercion or abuse,
or if your relationship isdestructive, this passage is not
(24:21):
a call to endure harm.
We do not condone that.
There you go.
That's it.
It's one sentence.
I don't even think it took awhole second for me to say it.
Refer to resources.
Mention domestic violencehotlines.
Mention your care team if youhave one that's got training.
Mention resources like call topeace.
You can even have things wherepeople can go pick up a flyer
(24:42):
after you mention it.
You don't even have to have aton of information that you say
from the pulpit, just like, hey,there are organizations to help
you.
We can get you connected.
Avoid implying mutuality andabuse.
Abuse, again, is not arelationship problem.
It causes them.
And abuse is not mutual.
It can't be.
Abuse cannot be mutual becausethe coercive controller has the
(25:05):
power.
They have the power and control.
And so it's not mutual.
It's not.
Abuse is a one-sided misuse ofpower.
It's really important to makesure that you say that.
And that you don't mutualize it.
It's not a toxic relationship,although that is toxic.
It is what it is, and we have tocall it what it is.
(25:27):
We also want to consult trainedadvocates or therapists.
You can go through the Call toPeace Ministries Church
Partnership Program.
You get advocates in that case.
You get a church partnerliaison.
It's really helpful in creatingpolicies and having the things
that you need.
You can also reach out to alocal therapist that knows what
they're doing.
You can reach out to me.
I consult with churches all thetime.
(25:49):
You can do a lot of differentthings to help get some
knowledge, to help get someunderstanding and to create a
system where you are helpingpeople walk in the fullness of
God.
Right.
We're calling perpetrators torepentance and accountability.
We are not just leaving theirsouls up for grabs and we are
protecting victims.
It sounds like a lot, and insome ways it is, but you can say
(26:11):
simple things from the pulpitand set up systems that can
actually be really protective.
I just want to remind you thatabuse, like any sin, doesn't
stay stagnant.
It escalates.
I cannot tell you how manyvictims have told me it wasn't
this bad 25 years ago.
Well, of course it wasn't.
But unchecked sin is alwaysgoing to grow.
(26:32):
Always.
And so you are right and good tocall it out.
Some abusers also misuse God'sword.
The sword of the spirit is notmeant to wound and stab their
spouse.
And the thing that can make ithard is that sometimes the
perpetrators are people that youlike, that you're friends with,
that you've known for a longtime.
(26:53):
You're just not married to them.
So you didn't see everythingthat was happening in the house.
And so you have to hold openthat things are happening that
maybe you don't know about, evenwith people that you super like,
even with people that supermaybe tied a lot.
And you have to be open more toGod's truth than you are to
anything else.
I really want to invite you tomodel courage by really naming
(27:16):
these things, naming them inevery sermon on marriage, every
sermon on sex.
And you should be preachingthose types of sermons.
You should be teaching entireones about harmful things and
oppression and calling out thatsin.
But also when you're teaching onhealthy marriage or healthy sex,
always have these caveats.
They are not hard to add, theyare not long to add, but they
(27:38):
will protect people far morethan you could ever imagine.
You cannot shepherd what yourefuse to name and what you
refuse to see.
And God will hold youaccountable.
I fear that again daily.
And I hope that you do too.
And I also want to encourage youto listen to survivors.
Talk to the ones in yourcongregation safely and don't
(28:01):
tell their business, okay, butdo get their experience.
Ask them, hey, look, if you'veheard sermons that made you feel
unseen or that maybe I had amisstep, God sees you, he knows,
and he loves you.
And can you please tell me whathappened?
Can you please tell me yourimpressions of it so I can
understand?
And you might be thinking, Lord,if I ask that question, then all
(28:22):
heck will break loose.
And that's not true either.
It's just not, it's not true.
So I want to encourage you, bebold, be courageous, and
actually trust Jesus.
And if the Lord is in this andhe is not a God of oppression,
and the Bible very clearly sayshe is not, then he is gonna give
you what you need to walkthrough this and he will give
you discernment.
The book of James also talksabout wisdom.
(28:43):
And if you are lacking it, youcan ask for it, and God will
give it to you liberally andwithout reproach, which means
he's gonna give you a bunch andhe is not mad about it.
I will provide links to Call toPeace Ministries, the National
Domestic Violence Hotline, andto my book in case it's helpful
for you.
I really want to encourage youto defend the weak and the
(29:06):
fatherless and uphold the causeof the poor and the oppressed.
That's from the Psalms.
Thank you for joining me thisweek on Hey Tabby.
I know I said a lot, but it'ssuch important stuff.
And I know you may think, well,I can't mention it all the time,
but I promise you, you areharming people if you don't.
And I can't tell you the numberof women that have fallen into
(29:28):
my arms after teachings justlike this and sobbed and told me
stories that would curl yourtoes.
I hope that you choose to lovepeople well, both perpetrators
and victims.
And that you start saying thethings that need to be said from
the pulpit.
Even if it's just a couplesentences, please don't leave it
out.
Thank you again for joining methis week.
(29:51):
I hope to see you here next timeon our next episode of Hey
Tabby.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of Hey Tabby.
If you're looking for a resourcethat I mentioned in the show and
you want to check out the shownotes, head on over to
tabithawestbrook.com forwardslash hey tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-C-I, and youcan grab it there.
(30:13):
I look forward to seeing younext time.
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