August 4, 2025 • 44 mins
Is male sexuality really just about lust—or have we been sold a lie?
In this deeply vulnerable episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Sam Jolman joins Tabitha Westbrook to uncover the untold story of male sexuality, emotional connection, and healing. Together, they expose how purity culture, porn exposure, and spiritual distortion have warped men’s understanding of their own bodies and desires, often with devastating consequences.
Whether you're a man trying to understand your sexual story, a woman wondering why your partner shuts down, or a therapist supporting clients through sexual trauma recovery, this episode will reshape how you think about intimacy, identity, and embodiment.
You’ll learn:
- Why men were taught to fear their sexuality and how that harms everyone
- How emotional disconnection sabotages intimacy in marriage
- Why “lust” isn’t the real problem (and what is)
- The difference between consumption and connection
- How the Church has often failed men by oversimplifying their struggle
- What healthy, heart-connected sexuality - the poetics of sex - actually looks like
- Why healing is possible, even after trauma, shame, or years of struggle
This is the conversation we should’ve had decades ago, but it’s not too late. Men were made for more than performance. They were made for love, tenderness, and true intimacy. It’s time to reclaim that.
🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS
→ Sam Jolman’s book: The Sex Talk You Never Got - https://amzn.to/4ogAohx
→ Sam’s website: https://www.samjolman.com/
CHAPTERS & TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Welcome to Hey Tabi
01:20 Meet Sam Jolman & his journey
05:23 Purity culture myths & male shame
08:47 Mechanics vs Poetics of Sex
13:37 Healthy masculinity & emotional intimacy
20:41 Marriage, trauma & knowing your partner
29:43 Pornography exposure as harm
35:10 How men connect emotionally
41:59 Why safe touch and community matter
50:10 The church’s silent role in sexual harm
56:33 Reclaiming pleasure, play & healing
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com
💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
📲 The Journey & The Process Instagram - www.instagram.com/_tjatp
Subscribe to my YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there
👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!
🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
Need to know how to find a great therapist? Read this...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof hey Tabby.
I am super excited.
(00:41):
This has been a long timecoming and I am glad that we are
finally here.
I am going to chat today withSam Joelman, and Sam wrote one
of my favorite books of 2024,and we are definitely going to
talk about that.
Let me tell you who he is.
He is a licensed professionalcounselor and trauma therapist
with over 20 years of experiencespecializing in men's issues
(01:03):
and sexual trauma recovery.
20 years of experiencespecializing in men's issues and
sexual trauma recovery.
Being a therapist has given hima front row seat to hear
hundreds of men and women sharetheir stories.
His writing flows out of thisunique opportunity to help
people know and heal theirstories and find greater sexual
wholeness and aliveness.
He received his master's incounseling from Reformed
Theological Seminary and wasfurther trained in
(01:24):
narrative-focused trauma carethrough the Allender Center at
the Seattle School of Theologyand Psychology, and y'all know
we love some narrative-focusedtrauma care up in here.
Sam lives in Colorado with hiswife and three sons, and
together they enjoy exploringthe best camping spots in
Colorado in a pop-up camper.
Sam goes to therapy, loves flyfishing and can often be found
(01:44):
trying to catch his breath onthe floor of his local CrossFit
gym.
I could not do that.
We're going to read more aboutSam at his website, on his sub
stack and in various places, butall of his links will be in the
description Sam welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Tabby, it is so good to be here.
It has been a long time coming.
And I'm equally honored to behere because I am a chapter into
your book and, oh my goodness,as we talked beforehand, I'm
loving it.
It has such gravitas, such adeep dive and I'm already
feeling invited, challenged,cared for in chapter one.
(02:19):
I'm equally honored to meet you.
This has been a long timecoming because we also share a
writing coach.
We do who has helped us birthbooks, which has been super
meaningful.
Yes, shout out to our friendRuth.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
She is incredible.
I love her so much.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
She's incredible.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I want to hear about how this book came about for you
, and one of the things I lovethe most about it is its
invitational nature.
You tell stories so well and itis so gentle, yet also
unapologetic, in beautiful ways.
So tell me, how did we get here?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah Well, you know my whole life right At some
level.
I'm writing this book, as weall do as authors to some degree
, to ourselves.
And so there's I'm writing thisbook to my younger self, the
young man that didn't get a sextalk, and in all the ways that
did not go well in my life, allthe ways that I had such a
(03:20):
wildly ambivalent relationshipwith my own sexuality and in
many ways felt like I was set upto believe my sexuality is the
enemy and that it is inherentlybad and that it's inherently
lustful.
As a man.
And I can remember when I, forexample, when I met my wife,
feeling like she was tooattractive and believing like
(03:45):
that can't be good, because Ifeel so excited about her, I
feel so aroused by her, I feelso attracted to her, that can't
be good.
Right, that's got to be bad,because God doesn't do that.
And when she said yes andthings worked out with her and
we had our own journey togetting from that moment of me
(04:07):
meeting her to marriage, but itfelt like this is too scandalous
and what is that right?
What was that in my story thatwas driving me away from my
sexuality, away from a goodexpression of it.
So that was a moment right thatinspired me to write this book,
because I did have a few placeswhere that sexual aliveness was
(04:30):
being welcomed and affirmed,primarily through being in a
therapist's office, a fewpastors, a few guides in my life
, mentors but it was rare, andit felt like a lost
understanding of how to embodysexuality well on men as well,
through this disclosure andconnecting to stories of abuse
anywhere from the.
(05:08):
You know what we might call themore daily quote, unquote, minor
, obviously not minor catcalling sexualization of men
right To outright, you know,sexual trauma and abuse.
And there was a question oflike is this just male sexuality
?
Is it just this broken?
Is it just this monstrous?
(05:30):
And obviously, being aChristian and knowing this is a
creation of God's, there's noway.
This is it.
But what is the vision?
How do you embody this well asa man?
So again, trying to speak tothat young man but also then
feeling this call to invite mento a greater vision of how do
(05:52):
you embody sexuality well, howcan it be a gift, not just to
you but to the world.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, and that is one of the things that I loved
about it is that, you know, Ithink in the church we language
it in a couple of different ways.
Right, Men are nothing buttheir lust.
This is what purity culturetaught us, right.
Yes, you know you can't help it.
If you don't have sex every 72hours, you will explode, and my
(06:21):
friend Jason Van Ruler hasreminded us all of this.
This is my favorite fact of2024 that I learned the only
mammal that can die if they donot have an orgasm is a female
ferret, and that is factuallycorrect.
It is my favorite fact of alltime at this point, wow.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I did not know that.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yes, it is the best.
And I told him I was going touse it in everything, and I do.
But like we've distilled ourbrothers down to nothing but
their lust, and that is not whatGod says about men.
He says that they are imagebearers of the living God, just
like women, and we've distilledwomen down to well.
I'm my brother's gatekeeper andso if I don't dress a certain
(06:53):
way, give it up a certain amountof times, whatever, and I don't
please him sexually, then he isjust going to be given over to
pornography or affairs.
And none of that is true andnone of that is biblical.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
And it has harmed us both so much.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yes, yes, right.
In other words, you know toaccept that you're an animal as
a man, right, that's all you are, is just an animal and you're.
You know it's every man'sbattle and you'll just barely be
able to fight lust your wholelife if you can even do that.
And, like you said, right, youneed your daily or 72-hour
vitamin called sex, and that awoman has to give it to you.
(07:30):
In other words, that it's noteven mutual right, that it's
something you have a right to.
Even it's awful.
It's a horrible story for menand women.
I would agree.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
It makes us opposed to each other, it makes us
afraid of each other and itharms the brother sister
relationship in the body ofChrist too, which is ridiculous
because, you know, I actuallywas leading a group last night
and we were talking about malefemale friendships together, and
one of the things that we weretalking about is if we are the
body we, men and women, are thebody of.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Christ.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Aren't we cutting off half the body if we focus on
one to the exclusion of theother?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
And that is such a pale version of what God has
called us to and it's such abeautiful version when we are
allowed to flourish and we wereall created sexual beings, like
it is part of our creation.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yes, yes, right, and it's a witness to something
right, not just for, as you said, the act of sex right Alone.
It is a witness that you arewired for pleasure, right.
Research would say you have8,000 to 10,000 nerve endings,
both men and women, in yourgenitalia.
That's a witness to somethingthat God wants you to experience
(08:45):
pleasure in his good world.
You also have 4,000 taste buds,right, and this is a God who
wired you for pleasure.
That's not a part of the fall.
You're meant to enjoy the world, you're meant to enjoy
relationship and, yes, includingsex itself.
But I think it's also that it'sa witness to something about
(09:06):
God's heart.
You know, our friend DanAllender would say that love is
the giving and receiving ofpleasure, to the glory of God,
which I've loved that definition, that love in itself is a
pleasure that we're meant toexperience, not just the act of
sex, you know, not just anorgasm or release.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Right, there's so much more and you and I talked a
little bit about this before weeven started.
But I'm with who are caught incompulsive sexual behavior
because they have been sohabituated in such a wrong way
(09:48):
and they're using it in a wayfor comfort and it's obviously
harmful to them, harmful totheir spouses.
But this is the quote.
Authentic sexuality requires aconnection to your body and self
so that you can tune into yourpartner.
Without sensuality, sexualitydoes not work.
Everything goes wrong.
The mechanics require theproper poetics and I love that
(10:11):
the mechanics and the poetics ofsex the way that you language.
That is so helpful.
You say it becomes aboutgetting an orgasm when we're
just looking at the mechanics.
I'd venture to say that sexualsin is not about too much desire
, but rather too littlesensuality or, as I said in the
introduction, too little heart.
And I was like, yes, absolutelyso.
(10:33):
When you really just focus onthe practice the penis and the
vagina then you lose the heart.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yes, yes, right.
So you know, I'm borrowing thatline from author Esther Perel,
where I first got it, whichchanged my life when I heard it
the poetics of sex right, themechanics being like how the
plumbing works, which probablyleft out women's pleasure
altogether because it was nameda penis and a vagina, not a
(11:09):
vulva, right.
And so even there the setup isalready against women.
But nevertheless, that's themechanics, how it fits together,
which even that in itself isalready a more complex
conversation, because 85% ofcouples at some point in their
marriage have physical sexualdysfunction, let alone the
(11:31):
emotional struggles andrelational struggles of intimacy
.
But yeah, but Esther Pereltalks about the poetics of sex
is the realm of desire, what'srunning the show right, what's
bringing the mechanics togetherand what's animating it.
And as I say in the book, youknow, I believe all sexuality
(11:54):
lives in a story.
It is always telling a story,it's always being driven by a
story.
It's never just a bodilyfunction like a sneeze or a
cough or using the bathroom.
It's a function driven by your,the story.
You're living the intimacy,you're living the day you're
having right, as you've namedright, that pull towards comfort
(12:16):
and seeing sexuality as an actof comfort.
Right, and that's where I thinkwe need to begin to ask the
question what's going on in yourheart, not just what's going on
in your body.
What's driving it, what'sanimating it?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
And I love how you talk about desire, because for
so many people, especiallysurvivors of abuse, desire is a
four-letter word with more thanfour letters, because it feels
like you're not even allowed.
Like what am I even saying?
Especially for women.
Women are told we're notallowed to desire anything,
we're just supposed to like laythere, which is ridiculous.
(12:51):
But you know, I think for menoftentimes desire and
consumption have beenintertwined and they are not the
same right.
Lust is consumptive.
That's where Jesus talks aboutadultery and lust being the same
.
And it is not because you wantsomething, it's because you want
to consume someone.
Yes, and you're using them foryour pleasure, without any focus
(13:11):
on their well-being, theirpleasure, their desire, their
anything.
Yes, and so I say basically thatwhen a man looks at sexuality
that way that they basically areseeing their partner as a
blow-up doll with a pulse, andthat is not the way that it was
(13:33):
intended.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
true desire is for connection, not consumption.
Yes, right, right, I mean adamin the garden of eden, right,
the first person to meet anotherperson naked eve, right, while
he is also naked, right.
The first thing he does is notsimply procreate and go for sex.
He waxes eloquent in poetryabout their I've met my person,
(13:57):
right.
The intimacy that's nowpossible, the sense of belonging
he felt to her.
In other words, he starts withall the intimacy he's
anticipating with her.
You're bone of my bone, you'reflesh of my flesh, you're my
people, you're my person, right.
And when you leave that out, asI'm sure you experience in the
safety of a counseling office, Ihave men all the time say to me
(14:21):
I hate sex, that's just for sex.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Men all the time, say to me I hate sex, that's just
for sex?
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Right that they.
But they feel like they have tokind of hide that.
Like I had a man who literallydoes counseling and I have
permission to share this fromthe cab of his construction
truck, on his lunch breaks onthe job site and he says you
know, as a man I know I'msupposed to always get it up and
just be ready to get it up andthat's all I want.
(14:46):
Right, it's just be alwaysready.
But he said I actually he wasgrieving how much he missed
romance with his wife.
It had been a season theycouldn't date because of life
circumstances.
They just hadn't had time forthat connection.
And he said I think I'm reallymissing that.
(15:06):
I actually want the emotionalstuff, but again feeling like he
has to confess it, like in thesecrecy of a counseling office,
right, what is this image ofmasculine sexuality that we've
created?
That all men want is just anorgasm.
They just want to get off rightFood and sex.
That all men want is just anorgasm.
They just want to get off rightFood and sex.
Just give them food and sex andthat's all they want.
(15:26):
It's so minimizing.
It's so minimizing Both to menand to women, obviously.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Yes, and it doesn't represent the good brothers that
I know at all.
Yes, the only men I have everseen who have said I just want
what I want are destructive men,the abusers of the world the
coercive controllers of theworld.
And they do not see theirpartners as humans, Honestly.
They do not see them as imagebearers of God.
(15:57):
They see them as an object toserve them, and that's a whole
other mentality.
That is a problem.
But most men the ones who arenot coercively controlling
abusers they are wanting thatconnection, but they've never
been given the words and thelanguage and the invitation to
be there.
And one of the things that Ialways found fun in couples
counseling I don't get to do itas much anymore but is I have
(16:18):
the power to make grown men cry,apparently, and I'd have wives
go.
What did you do?
Like I've never seen him cryand all I did was see his heart
and say, oh, you have suchdesire.
There's this tenderness there,and then all of the walls just
start to crumble and they'relike you must be piping in tear
(16:38):
gas and I'm like no man, you'rejust seeing.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
You're just seeing yes, Right, Right, no man you're
just seeing.
You're just seeing yeah, yes,right, right, and you know.
Again back to what you named,which is the church sets up the
vision of men, which is thatpicture of the abuser, the guy
who just wants sex.
I think that's well said.
Those are the most hauntingexperiences I've ever had in
(17:02):
counseling as well.
Those are the most hauntingexperiences I've ever had in
counseling as well, when I'msitting across from somebody
that's abusive and you get thathaunting feeling of you're here
to control.
You're not here on the sameterms as your wife, are you?
You're in this for somethingmore than intimacy and again,
unfortunately, that's often thescript.
The church writes that men are,and so we become blind, as you
(17:25):
named so well then, to seeingthat as no, that's actually an
abuser, that's not the image ofGod in a man.
I say often like and this feelsrevolutionary, but it's just
truth that men are equally ascapable as women at experiencing
emotional connection andattachment.
There's nothing different in aman that prevents him from
(17:48):
experiencing healthy emotionalattachment and secure attachment
, Right, but even that we'relike.
What Really, Men want?
That stuff, yes.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Men want that stuff all day.
That's what I sit with when Isit with men.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yes, and men when they are invited into a safe
space to express it and to startto get real about it and to
start I call it family of originrules, right, like so the
things that we were maybe grownup with that grown men don't cry
, you know?
I mean, this is baseball.
There's no crying in baseball,right From League of their Own,
(18:26):
that kind of deal when we invitemen into that different place
to go.
No, like, what does it mean totruly be an image bearer?
And Jesus wept right myfavorite verse in the Bible,
super easy to memorize.
But also he already knew he wasgoing to raise Lazarus from the
dead.
He knew what was coming and hestill felt the pain, he still
(18:49):
felt the compassion, he stillwept with people and it wasn't
like a sniffle, sniffle it waswailing yes and yes when we
invite our brothers into thosespaces of all you were created
to be.
Let's get familiar with thosedeep places and that deep well
within you, Gosh man.
That's where healing takesplace, Right.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
It's almost like if you just tell a man this is in
you, right, then they feel freeto go there finally and admit it
.
You know, my publisher, myeditor, was hesitant at first
with my use of the language oflover, right, my first chapter
is you are a lover.
And I came out of the gatehoping you know to get punchy
(19:31):
with we're going to go here.
And my publisher was like ohman, my editor especially like I
hope men connect to that.
Are men going to connect tothat?
And ultimately they agreed andsaid let's go for it.
And he said I think they will.
But we had that conversation andit's been amazing, a year in
now to the book being launched,how deeply men connect to that
(19:55):
word.
It's been a gift to me tonotice like, oh, you get it
right, it's in you, it just hasto be called out of you and
initiated.
And I talked, you know, in thatfirst chapter about how I felt
God initiated the lover in me,or a couple scenes of that.
But, right, it's almost like ifyou just tell men, this is,
(20:16):
you're fully capable of this,this is God's image in you, then
they feel empowered to go theremore.
But if you tell them.
No, you're just a lustfulanimal.
All you really want is thesexual release.
The romance is for the women.
What a dumb thing.
How did we?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
get there.
Right.
We have like Song of Songs whichis erotic love poetry, yes,
which is all about romance andboth the man and the woman are
writing it to each other andthey're both desirous, they're
both talking about desire, theyare both together and they're
(20:54):
boundaried right at one pointshe says no and he leaves and
she's like, oh, you know, and Ithink like the Song of Songs has
been one of the worst bookstaught ever, because it's always
used for premarital counselingand it's like so your wedding
night's going to be this, andI'm like, oh for the love.
First of all, I'd like you totalk about what the marriage is
going to be like and how do wehave a conversation, and there's
(21:15):
a lot more to it.
But how do we have realintimacy?
And I think it was Sue Johnsonwho created emotionally focused
couples therapy, that said itthis way.
Intimacy means into me, you see, and everybody needs to be seen
, both men and women.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yes, yes, that that word in Genesis of Adam and Eve
Adam knew Eve, right, Seeing sexas a knowing right.
And I know Sheila Gregoire haspointed this out that that same
word is used in Psalm 139, right, where David is talking about
you search to me and you know me.
You know when I sit and when Irise.
(21:51):
You perceive my thoughts fromafar, right, and you can almost
hear that as like lovers sayingyou could finish my sentences,
right.
You know what I love and what Idon't like.
You know my deepest hurts,right.
That's the kind of intimacythat's intended.
I love that language from SueJohnson.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Absolutely, and you know, as you're talking about
that, it reminded me of the lovemaps from the Gottmans right.
This is your baseline ofknowing your partner what makes
them them and Diane Langbergtalks about that Like as when
she's training counselors, likethe first thing you're supposed
to do is who is this person infront of me, what makes them
(22:32):
them right?
And that should be the firstthing in marriage, because that
matters.
And so we're teaching people gohave this raucous wedding night
and having these ridiculousbachelorette parties.
Some of the bridal showers I'vebeen to in the evangelical
church are suspect because like,here's a lingerie party and
it's like this is, this is notno ew.
(22:52):
It's like you're distillingdown the entire marriage to the
wedding night, which oftendoesn't live up to what people
expect anyway, because,especially if you did wait till
marriage, you don't know whatyou're doing.
No one knows what they're doing, and if it's your second
marriage, you still don't knowwhat you're doing because you
don't know this person and soyou know leaning in and going,
what do I like?
And we are not teaching that, weare not teaching what is
(23:13):
comfortable for you and thatcomes out of intimacy and
knowing your partner, justknowing them in general, outside
of intercourse and sexualcontact, but then also knowing
them in terms of how can we havethese conversations about
what's okay and what's not okayhere?
Yep, and if there's been sexualharm in this day and age, one
in six men and one in four womenhave been sexually harmed in
(23:37):
some way, and that's probablylow on the statistic.
Right, how are we entering intogether to say let me be tender
with you.
Let me know you so that we cancome together well.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Right, Right, I love that what you're saying there,
In other words, to know eachother's stories in a way that
would say I know your triggers,or I can at least anticipate
what experiences might be tenderfor you, and to be able to have
you know the possibility thatwe can always stop right.
(24:10):
Sex can always be stopped.
The play of sex to addresswhat's happening in your body
that might be painful, right, orwhether we stop altogether or
we pause, but right, wherethere's that tenderness to say
bringing you along with me isthe point.
It's not to get to somephysical release, you know which
(24:33):
.
Alexandra Katahakis, I thinkI'm saying that, right, Yep.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Alex Katahakis.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Okay, who says you know?
Sex for some men becomes a kindof almost autoerotic thing.
It's not even partnered right,it's not even dyadic, it's just
simply your, as you named.
You're a blow up doll that'sgoing to get me off.
And again, it's so degrading towomen, it is so degrading to
men as well.
Yes, that's all you are, ratherthan actually.
(25:01):
You're a really good lover whocan read and attune to your
partner and you'll be able tostop and address her pain Right,
or your own.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yes, or your own, because men have pain too.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yes, right, you know I tell some of this story in the
book that I did not know, thatI had a story of sexual harm
when I went into marriage.
But what I knew is when my wifewould initiate intimacy in our
first couple of years ofmarriage, even if it was just
affection in the kitchen, like ahug, my whole body would
(25:38):
bristle and tighten up and Iwould lock up like a board and
she would obviously begin toread my body.
Something had changed and I wasnot enjoying this and she would
back away and it felt verypersonally, rejecting,
understandably.
And I remember in our firstcouple of years of marriage she
said to me Understandably, and Iremember in our first couple of
(26:21):
years of marriage she said tome I need you to do something
about this, like what's going on?
And I didn't have an answer.
I didn't know what was going onin my body when she would hug
me and again, if I initiated, itwas fine, right, because again
I had power, I felt I had agency.
But if she initiated, my bodywould bristle and my body was
telling my story and so that's,you know, at that point in our
intimacy I went into counseling,really with an unknown.
I don't know what I'maddressing.
I just know my wife experiencesthis.
I love her.
I don't know why I'm doing this.
I enjoy her.
I don't know why I'm doing this.
I enjoy her.
And it was it began my journeyinto a deeper dive of my own
(26:44):
story, my own sexual harm, tobegin to an overt story of
sexual harm, right of sexualabuse.
But it's highly likely.
It's possible one in six.
But men are notoriously lessoutspoken about their abuse, so
(27:10):
it's probably higher.
Men tend to take it as I musthave been perverted or I must
have been weird.
Obviously women take that aswell, with that belief.
That's how we bury our storiesof abuse.
But you have stories that haveshaped you sexually.
There's an ongoing story andit's probably a silent one.
(27:31):
It's probably an unspoken one.
That's in the subtext.
Yes, those stories show up whenyou try to move towards
intimacy.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yes, those stories show up when you try to move
towards intimacy.
They do, they do, and you know,as you're talking, I'm thinking
about this that for those of usthat did grow up in the
evangelical church or in thechurch in general, I wonder how
much covert sexual abuse, orsexual dysfunction at the very
least, has been languaged justin what men say and, like you
(28:02):
had mentioned earlier, thephrase every man's battle, which
makes me unnaturally madbecause of the book of the same
name and the wickedness that Ibelieve that perpetrates.
And just looking at that andtelling men well, you're going
to struggle with lust andstruggle with porn and that sort
of thing, when that is not infact actually true.
And how many guys have beensexually abused through someone
(28:25):
showing them pornography orsomething similar, or having it
languaged, or having a youthpastor that was talking about it
or that made sexuallysuggestive comments?
I mean, we have pastors thatget up whose sermons are on the
Internet talking about theirsmoking hot wife.
That is not about herpersonhood, that is about her
body and what they can get fromit, and so I wonder how much, if
(28:47):
I'm being just really brutallyhonest, the church has
perpetuated sexual harm.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Right Yep.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
And I love the church .
Don't get me wrong.
I love Jesus, I love the church.
I think that it is a beautifulplace, but I do think that we
have to recognize spaces ofbrokenness.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Right, and there's something about the minimizing
as well of, as you named, like,oh, you know how we just say,
well, it's just lust.
We tend to put it in thesecategories that are often
spiritually bypassing of it.
You know, to say, well, hestruggles with us, or that
pastor stumbled, or right,whether it's even in the
teaching or just in how wescript.
When harm does happen, right,as we don't use the language of
(29:25):
trauma and abuse, we'll say itwas sin or it was even you know
he struggles with lust, and butwe don't understand, even there,
that lust is primarily aboutpower, yes, and so again, we
think of it as it's just anoverabundance of sexual urge,
that sort of spilled over right,like and how could you blame
(29:47):
them?
Right, the cup's full he's.
It just spills over the sidesometimes, right, and and rather
than seeing it as a veryintentional act of grasping at
power, of ego, stroking right,that's what lust is.
It is not primarily aboutsexual release, it isn't that,
but more in the name of the egoand the ego's pride.
(30:09):
So again, yes, we don't, wedon't look darkness in the face,
um, and we should be thebravest ones, as our friend dan
allender says, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
And you know, I think about some of the things that
Dan has in Healing the WoundedHeart, which is one of my
favorite books for sexual harmof all time.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
And even in that, because of the time period when
he wrote it, even the 20-yearupdate that he speaks mainly to
women's harm in a lot of ways,and there is a lot of harm for
women.
But as we're thinking aboutthis, I'm like well, how many
men were invited intopornography and sexual
dysfunction by their own fathers, by uncles?
Oh hey, watch this with me,this is what we do, you know,
(30:49):
while you have a beer whenyou're 13 or whatever, and that
is such a form of harm.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Right, right.
It's breaking my form of harmyes, right, and it's breaking my
heart right now.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yes, yes, you know most men hold that as their
shame.
Well, I looked, I looked atporn, but they don't ever stop
to wrestle with the setup, asyou're naming so well.
So many men's first experienceof pornography is actually a
story of sexual abuse, of sexualharm, where you were sexualized
(31:20):
by somebody, even if that wasquote unquote passively, by a
father who left his pornographyin the garage or in the attic or
by his nightstand.
Right, and this is back in thetime of more magazines were more
popular, but also including,you know, the kid that says, hey
, come look at this on his phone.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
And, before you know it, you're watching a scene of
sexual, of sex, of porn.
Right, that's a form ofsexualization.
Somebody sexualized you,somebody invited you in without
your consent and you need to beinformed.
To be consensual, you also needto be an adult.
So again to say you don't knowwhat you're consenting to if
(32:01):
you're under 18 right, yeah, youdon't you can't your prefrontal
cortex is not wired together.
You can, yes right, right, yeah,yes, yeah.
And again I would say you knowto men that hold so many men I
talk with, hold that story as Iwas perverted.
I looked, I was curious andagain feeling the contempt for
(32:25):
their own perversion or theirown arousal.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
We're meant to be curious.
You know, all of these thingsdesire curiosity.
That you talk about the play ofsex in your book, which I
adored, especially for so manytrauma survivors.
We have had play stolen from usin every realm, you know,
including relationships andlooking at the overall play of
(32:49):
sex and going.
This is meant to be delightful.
This is meant to be delightingit is meant to be good.
God created it as good, and youknow to invite people into that
place.
And so when you are exposed tosomething you shouldn't be and
look man, people who createpornography.
Their goal is to keep you stuckbecause that's how they make
their money.
Let's be honest, follow thedollar.
(33:10):
And when we look at that and wego, you know of course your
desire was played upon, yourdelight was played upon.
Of course it was, and we needto hold the purveyors of porn
responsible, not the little boythat looked and was drawn in,
especially little boys withtrauma.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Right, yep, right.
I had a couple come to me andthey have given me permission to
share this story.
Their watching old son came tothem and said mom, dad, I've
been struggling with pornographyand they were heartbroken, you
know, and and thought they hadthe filters up and everything
right.
And he told the story of whathappened.
(33:53):
And he had been at school andhe'd listened to some of his
friends talking about girls theywere interested in and he
realized he didn't know how tokiss a girl Right.
Which purely innocent, what abeautifully innocent curiosity
how do you kiss a girl?
And so he went to Google, typedit in how do you kiss a girl?
(34:14):
And again, because, as you'venamed well, pornographers are
looking for their next customerright, and if they can get a
lifetime customer, even better.
And pornography showed up inthe search results.
And he stumbled down that darkpath and he felt too ashamed to
bring it up for a while becauseit felt like it was his fault.
Yeah, but what could be moreinnocent than a question how to
(34:39):
kiss a girl?
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Right, which is such a reasonable question for a
teenage boy?
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Girls have these questions too.
We don't talk about them asmuch.
We all need to be talking aboutthis stuff because and as a
parent myself and you're aparent like it can be awkward to
talk about things with your kidand they also.
They feel awkward, everybody'sawkward together.
But when we are languagingthese things and also delighting
in the desire that God createdfor them, of course you're going
(35:07):
to feel this way.
Of course you're going todesire, first of all, intimacy
in general.
You're going to desire to beknown and loved.
You're going to desire physicalcontact.
You're going to desire pleasure.
Those are beautiful things.
We want to keep them in theright guardrails, of course.
But, what if we celebrated thatthat desire was there?
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Right, right, right and blessed the lover.
Yeah, right, blessed the loverand that young man, that
14-year-old, and his curiosityand desire to kiss.
Well, yes, right, that's a sextalk right there.
It is Conversation yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yes, and such a beautiful one One of the things
that I talked about in my bookwas the healthy, non-sexual
intimacy in relationships withthe opposite sex.
Again, a place the church hasnot gone as well as they would
have hoped, right, or at leastas I would have hoped.
(36:06):
But how do we begin, as friends, understanding intimacy with
the opposite sex in non-sexualways that you know eventually
then lead into that, so that wehave that more fulsome
understanding of what it is tobe connected humans?
Speaker 2 (36:22):
fulsome understanding of what it is to be connected
humans.
Yes, right, right, yeah, youknow.
Back to Sue Johnson, andparticularly around men.
You know Sue Johnson has thisquote where she talks about, you
know, when a couple comes toher and the wife says, you know
he's really into sex.
Why is that?
And she says something like youknow, I would be into sex too
if it was the only place otherthan the football field where I
(36:43):
got touch and held, right.
And again, what you're naming islike how we're set up, right,
for a man, obviously that's acultural thing.
Sex isn't meant to be the onlyplace you experience touch,
right, you know, other than thefootball field, right, but like
you're naming, like the abilityto even receive healthy touch,
(37:04):
hug right, affection, right,Sometimes that's the only way
men know how to ask for that andI'm not saying this is an
excuse, right, because they needto grow in this is by saying I
want sex, yeah.
And often then, when I ask men,well, what do you love about it
?
Right, they'll say things likeI love feeling desired, I love
(37:34):
feeling wanted.
It's one of the only places Ifeel wanted, is the only place,
one of the only places I canfeel like I can get touch and
comfort, yeah.
And so the question becomes whatif you could take those again?
That's awesome.
You want those in sex, right,those are good places for it.
But what if you could take thatinto other contexts?
What if you could own?
You want to be pursued.
Maybe you need to talk aboutsomething.
(37:54):
Maybe you just need toemotionally connect.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yes, yes, absolutely yeah.
I think about Kirk Thompson'squote we all come into the world
looking for someone, lookingfor us.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I don't think that ends Like ultimately, we find
that in Jesus, of course, butthat's also not the only answer.
Right Like, that is an answer.
It is a wonderful answer.
There are those of us who aresingle, who.
That is where we are going toget that right now, in lots of
ways it's that depth, but alsohe created us in community for
community, and that is such animportant thing.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
And so we should be getting touch.
I know, you know, lori Wilbert,that Ferguson, ferguson.
Wilbert.
Anyway, love her book.
He you know Lori Wilbert, is itWilbert?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Ferguson, ferguson, wilbert.
Anyway, sure Handle with care.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Love her book.
He, you know, talks about whatif we all understood the need
for touch in the church and thatdesperation for that.
Because you know, I think about, as a single woman, the good
friends that touch me when I goto church and sometimes that's
the only physical contact I get,but there are friends that look
for me, to hug me, and that'sbeautiful.
(39:00):
There's nothing at all sexualabout it, but it's deeply
connecting.
And what a gift we give to eachother when we are seen.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yes, yes, yes.
You know, I can remember when Iwas single and I was on this
camping trip with this, like wewere doing like a camping trip
slash, like therapy, diveexperience, and I can remember
it was it was men and women onthis camping trip and we were
sitting around the fire and Iwas processing something really
(39:31):
painful and I still, I mean itchanged my life.
But I remember one of the womenreached her hand over and just
started rubbing my back.
I mean it was like what?
It felt so safe and so good andit was so not sexual, it was
(39:54):
simply an offer of comfort in mypain.
Oh, you know the body's needfor that and how that can speak
love, yes.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Yes, one of my friends calls it skin hunger.
We all have it you know, and Ithink we've distilled it down
through some books and thingslike that oh, you want, you know
, acts of service or physicaltouch.
It's like no, no, no, we needall of those things.
You know, we may havepreferences for maybe something
over another thing, but we needthem all and we are desperate
for each other in relationshipand when we're in an intimate
(40:28):
relationship.
I think that that's an evenmore important, you know, factor
.
It's not the Jerry McGuire.
You complete me.
I do not need someone tocomplete me but I do need
someone to connect to me.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Right, right, yeah, well, said, yeah, yeah.
And again I'm leaning a littlebit here into Sue Johnson, but I
know Sue Johnson mentionssomething like everyone has
touch hunger.
She marks that, you know,little boys are held less as
infants than girls are.
In other words, there's aninherent kind of touch
(41:03):
deprivation that men go throughpossibly Again, I'm not saying
man for man, but in general, so,especially as a man obviously
that's my audience in my bookthe importance of learning to
find places and learning to knowhow to ask for touch, because
sometimes what's being asked forin sex is just that.
(41:24):
You know, I can think of awoman who I quoted in my book
and again, this was not a goodthing in her life.
She described to me I alwaysknew what kind of day my husband
had, based on how he had sexwith me that night.
And she said sometimes I couldtell he had a bad day because I
(41:45):
was the thing he needed toconquer at the end of his day
and she said it was awful.
It was not intimacy, you knowand I've reflected on her
experience which would be a formof harm uh, you know, long term
for her to experience that.
And I've thought to myself whatif that man could just say hey,
(42:07):
honey, I had a bad day.
Can I talk about it?
Yeah, right, and actually gotintimacy?
Yes, rather than being stuck inhis ego or his thirst for power
right, I've got to conquersomething.
What if he could just acceptit's okay to have a bad day,
right, and you're still lovable.
(42:29):
Yep, right.
What a gift that could havebeen to his wife as well.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
I could talk to you all day.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
All the things, gosh, what a beautiful life, giving
conversation, and this is one ofthe things, honestly, that's
most important to me, eventhough I often work with women
who have been harmed.
You know, and I do work withbatterers and I invite them into
change.
I invite them intoaccountability and change
because they are missing suchimportant things.
(42:59):
But and there's a whole othergroup of men out there that I
work with, that you work with,that are none of those right.
They're not batterers, they'renot coercive controllers.
They're men who have never beentaught to really truly walk in
the fullness of who God createdthem to be in all their parts
and ways.
And so I love that your bookinvites us to something there,
(43:21):
invites us into that space, andI will commend it to everyone,
whether they are a man or awoman.
I've given this to plenty ofwomen.
I give it to all the guys.
All my guys get this as areferral.
I'm like you need to go readthis and we're going to talk
about it, but for all of myladies as well.
I often encourage reading itbecause it presents a different
picture than maybe they haveeven heard about men, and it is
(43:44):
so beautiful, and so thank youfor the book, thank you for
spending time with us here andfor this conversation, and we
100% have to do it again, really, really soon.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Tabby, I would love that.
I've loved this conversationand have loved my journey into
your book as well, and wouldlove to come back.
It's very, very mutual.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Well, thank you so much, Sam, and all of your
information will be in thedescription so people can find
you, and thank you for hangingout here again on hey Tabby.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
(44:24):
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof hey Tabby.
I am super excited.
(00:41):
This has been a long timecoming and I am glad that we are
finally here.
I am going to chat today withSam Joelman, and Sam wrote one
of my favorite books of 2024,and we are definitely going to
talk about that.
Let me tell you who he is.
He is a licensed professionalcounselor and trauma therapist
with over 20 years of experiencespecializing in men's issues
(01:03):
and sexual trauma recovery.
20 years of experiencespecializing in men's issues and
sexual trauma recovery.
Being a therapist has given hima front row seat to hear
hundreds of men and women sharetheir stories.
His writing flows out of thisunique opportunity to help
people know and heal theirstories and find greater sexual
wholeness and aliveness.
He received his master's incounseling from Reformed
Theological Seminary and wasfurther trained in
(01:24):
narrative-focused trauma carethrough the Allender Center at
the Seattle School of Theologyand Psychology, and y'all know
we love some narrative-focusedtrauma care up in here.
Sam lives in Colorado with hiswife and three sons, and
together they enjoy exploringthe best camping spots in
Colorado in a pop-up camper.
Sam goes to therapy, loves flyfishing and can often be found
(01:44):
trying to catch his breath onthe floor of his local CrossFit
gym.
I could not do that.
We're going to read more aboutSam at his website, on his sub
stack and in various places, butall of his links will be in the
description Sam welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Tabby, it is so good to be here.
It has been a long time coming.
And I'm equally honored to behere because I am a chapter into
your book and, oh my goodness,as we talked beforehand, I'm
loving it.
It has such gravitas, such adeep dive and I'm already
feeling invited, challenged,cared for in chapter one.
(02:19):
I'm equally honored to meet you.
This has been a long timecoming because we also share a
writing coach.
We do who has helped us birthbooks, which has been super
meaningful.
Yes, shout out to our friendRuth.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
She is incredible.
I love her so much.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
She's incredible.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I want to hear about how this book came about for you
, and one of the things I lovethe most about it is its
invitational nature.
You tell stories so well and itis so gentle, yet also
unapologetic, in beautiful ways.
So tell me, how did we get here?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah Well, you know my whole life right At some
level.
I'm writing this book, as weall do as authors to some degree
, to ourselves.
And so there's I'm writing thisbook to my younger self, the
young man that didn't get a sextalk, and in all the ways that
did not go well in my life, allthe ways that I had such a
(03:20):
wildly ambivalent relationshipwith my own sexuality and in
many ways felt like I was set upto believe my sexuality is the
enemy and that it is inherentlybad and that it's inherently
lustful.
As a man.
And I can remember when I, forexample, when I met my wife,
feeling like she was tooattractive and believing like
(03:45):
that can't be good, because Ifeel so excited about her, I
feel so aroused by her, I feelso attracted to her, that can't
be good.
Right, that's got to be bad,because God doesn't do that.
And when she said yes andthings worked out with her and
we had our own journey togetting from that moment of me
(04:07):
meeting her to marriage, but itfelt like this is too scandalous
and what is that right?
What was that in my story thatwas driving me away from my
sexuality, away from a goodexpression of it.
So that was a moment right thatinspired me to write this book,
because I did have a few placeswhere that sexual aliveness was
(04:30):
being welcomed and affirmed,primarily through being in a
therapist's office, a fewpastors, a few guides in my life
, mentors but it was rare, andit felt like a lost
understanding of how to embodysexuality well on men as well,
through this disclosure andconnecting to stories of abuse
anywhere from the.
(05:08):
You know what we might call themore daily quote, unquote, minor
, obviously not minor catcalling sexualization of men
right To outright, you know,sexual trauma and abuse.
And there was a question oflike is this just male sexuality
?
Is it just this broken?
Is it just this monstrous?
(05:30):
And obviously, being aChristian and knowing this is a
creation of God's, there's noway.
This is it.
But what is the vision?
How do you embody this well asa man?
So again, trying to speak tothat young man but also then
feeling this call to invite mento a greater vision of how do
(05:52):
you embody sexuality well, howcan it be a gift, not just to
you but to the world.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, and that is one of the things that I loved
about it is that, you know, Ithink in the church we language
it in a couple of different ways.
Right, Men are nothing buttheir lust.
This is what purity culturetaught us, right.
Yes, you know you can't help it.
If you don't have sex every 72hours, you will explode, and my
(06:21):
friend Jason Van Ruler hasreminded us all of this.
This is my favorite fact of2024 that I learned the only
mammal that can die if they donot have an orgasm is a female
ferret, and that is factuallycorrect.
It is my favorite fact of alltime at this point, wow.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I did not know that.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yes, it is the best.
And I told him I was going touse it in everything, and I do.
But like we've distilled ourbrothers down to nothing but
their lust, and that is not whatGod says about men.
He says that they are imagebearers of the living God, just
like women, and we've distilledwomen down to well.
I'm my brother's gatekeeper andso if I don't dress a certain
(06:53):
way, give it up a certain amountof times, whatever, and I don't
please him sexually, then he isjust going to be given over to
pornography or affairs.
And none of that is true andnone of that is biblical.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
And it has harmed us both so much.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yes, yes, right.
In other words, you know toaccept that you're an animal as
a man, right, that's all you are, is just an animal and you're.
You know it's every man'sbattle and you'll just barely be
able to fight lust your wholelife if you can even do that.
And, like you said, right, youneed your daily or 72-hour
vitamin called sex, and that awoman has to give it to you.
(07:30):
In other words, that it's noteven mutual right, that it's
something you have a right to.
Even it's awful.
It's a horrible story for menand women.
I would agree.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
It makes us opposed to each other, it makes us
afraid of each other and itharms the brother sister
relationship in the body ofChrist too, which is ridiculous
because, you know, I actuallywas leading a group last night
and we were talking about malefemale friendships together, and
one of the things that we weretalking about is if we are the
body we, men and women, are thebody of.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Christ.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Aren't we cutting off half the body if we focus on
one to the exclusion of theother?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
And that is such a pale version of what God has
called us to and it's such abeautiful version when we are
allowed to flourish and we wereall created sexual beings, like
it is part of our creation.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yes, yes, right, and it's a witness to something
right, not just for, as you said, the act of sex right Alone.
It is a witness that you arewired for pleasure, right.
Research would say you have8,000 to 10,000 nerve endings,
both men and women, in yourgenitalia.
That's a witness to somethingthat God wants you to experience
(08:45):
pleasure in his good world.
You also have 4,000 taste buds,right, and this is a God who
wired you for pleasure.
That's not a part of the fall.
You're meant to enjoy the world, you're meant to enjoy
relationship and, yes, includingsex itself.
But I think it's also that it'sa witness to something about
(09:06):
God's heart.
You know, our friend DanAllender would say that love is
the giving and receiving ofpleasure, to the glory of God,
which I've loved that definition, that love in itself is a
pleasure that we're meant toexperience, not just the act of
sex, you know, not just anorgasm or release.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Right, there's so much more and you and I talked a
little bit about this before weeven started.
But I'm with who are caught incompulsive sexual behavior
because they have been sohabituated in such a wrong way
(09:48):
and they're using it in a wayfor comfort and it's obviously
harmful to them, harmful totheir spouses.
But this is the quote.
Authentic sexuality requires aconnection to your body and self
so that you can tune into yourpartner.
Without sensuality, sexualitydoes not work.
Everything goes wrong.
The mechanics require theproper poetics and I love that
(10:11):
the mechanics and the poetics ofsex the way that you language.
That is so helpful.
You say it becomes aboutgetting an orgasm when we're
just looking at the mechanics.
I'd venture to say that sexualsin is not about too much desire
, but rather too littlesensuality or, as I said in the
introduction, too little heart.
And I was like, yes, absolutelyso.
(10:33):
When you really just focus onthe practice the penis and the
vagina then you lose the heart.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yes, yes, right.
So you know, I'm borrowing thatline from author Esther Perel,
where I first got it, whichchanged my life when I heard it
the poetics of sex right, themechanics being like how the
plumbing works, which probablyleft out women's pleasure
altogether because it was nameda penis and a vagina, not a
(11:09):
vulva, right.
And so even there the setup isalready against women.
But nevertheless, that's themechanics, how it fits together,
which even that in itself isalready a more complex
conversation, because 85% ofcouples at some point in their
marriage have physical sexualdysfunction, let alone the
(11:31):
emotional struggles andrelational struggles of intimacy
.
But yeah, but Esther Pereltalks about the poetics of sex
is the realm of desire, what'srunning the show right, what's
bringing the mechanics togetherand what's animating it.
And as I say in the book, youknow, I believe all sexuality
(11:54):
lives in a story.
It is always telling a story,it's always being driven by a
story.
It's never just a bodilyfunction like a sneeze or a
cough or using the bathroom.
It's a function driven by your,the story.
You're living the intimacy,you're living the day you're
having right, as you've namedright, that pull towards comfort
(12:16):
and seeing sexuality as an actof comfort.
Right, and that's where I thinkwe need to begin to ask the
question what's going on in yourheart, not just what's going on
in your body.
What's driving it, what'sanimating it?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
And I love how you talk about desire, because for
so many people, especiallysurvivors of abuse, desire is a
four-letter word with more thanfour letters, because it feels
like you're not even allowed.
Like what am I even saying?
Especially for women.
Women are told we're notallowed to desire anything,
we're just supposed to like laythere, which is ridiculous.
(12:51):
But you know, I think for menoftentimes desire and
consumption have beenintertwined and they are not the
same right.
Lust is consumptive.
That's where Jesus talks aboutadultery and lust being the same
.
And it is not because you wantsomething, it's because you want
to consume someone.
Yes, and you're using them foryour pleasure, without any focus
(13:11):
on their well-being, theirpleasure, their desire, their
anything.
Yes, and so I say basically thatwhen a man looks at sexuality
that way that they basically areseeing their partner as a
blow-up doll with a pulse, andthat is not the way that it was
(13:33):
intended.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
true desire is for connection, not consumption.
Yes, right, right, I mean adamin the garden of eden, right,
the first person to meet anotherperson naked eve, right, while
he is also naked, right.
The first thing he does is notsimply procreate and go for sex.
He waxes eloquent in poetryabout their I've met my person,
(13:57):
right.
The intimacy that's nowpossible, the sense of belonging
he felt to her.
In other words, he starts withall the intimacy he's
anticipating with her.
You're bone of my bone, you'reflesh of my flesh, you're my
people, you're my person, right.
And when you leave that out, asI'm sure you experience in the
safety of a counseling office, Ihave men all the time say to me
(14:21):
I hate sex, that's just for sex.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Men all the time, say to me I hate sex, that's just
for sex?
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Right that they.
But they feel like they have tokind of hide that.
Like I had a man who literallydoes counseling and I have
permission to share this fromthe cab of his construction
truck, on his lunch breaks onthe job site and he says you
know, as a man I know I'msupposed to always get it up and
just be ready to get it up andthat's all I want.
(14:46):
Right, it's just be alwaysready.
But he said I actually he wasgrieving how much he missed
romance with his wife.
It had been a season theycouldn't date because of life
circumstances.
They just hadn't had time forthat connection.
And he said I think I'm reallymissing that.
(15:06):
I actually want the emotionalstuff, but again feeling like he
has to confess it, like in thesecrecy of a counseling office,
right, what is this image ofmasculine sexuality that we've
created?
That all men want is just anorgasm.
They just want to get off rightFood and sex.
That all men want is just anorgasm.
They just want to get off rightFood and sex.
Just give them food and sex andthat's all they want.
(15:26):
It's so minimizing.
It's so minimizing Both to menand to women, obviously.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Yes, and it doesn't represent the good brothers that
I know at all.
Yes, the only men I have everseen who have said I just want
what I want are destructive men,the abusers of the world the
coercive controllers of theworld.
And they do not see theirpartners as humans, Honestly.
They do not see them as imagebearers of God.
(15:57):
They see them as an object toserve them, and that's a whole
other mentality.
That is a problem.
But most men the ones who arenot coercively controlling
abusers they are wanting thatconnection, but they've never
been given the words and thelanguage and the invitation to
be there.
And one of the things that Ialways found fun in couples
counseling I don't get to do itas much anymore but is I have
(16:18):
the power to make grown men cry,apparently, and I'd have wives
go.
What did you do?
Like I've never seen him cryand all I did was see his heart
and say, oh, you have suchdesire.
There's this tenderness there,and then all of the walls just
start to crumble and they'relike you must be piping in tear
(16:38):
gas and I'm like no man, you'rejust seeing.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
You're just seeing yes, Right, Right, no man you're
just seeing.
You're just seeing yeah, yes,right, right, and you know.
Again back to what you named,which is the church sets up the
vision of men, which is thatpicture of the abuser, the guy
who just wants sex.
I think that's well said.
Those are the most hauntingexperiences I've ever had in
(17:02):
counseling as well.
Those are the most hauntingexperiences I've ever had in
counseling as well, when I'msitting across from somebody
that's abusive and you get thathaunting feeling of you're here
to control.
You're not here on the sameterms as your wife, are you?
You're in this for somethingmore than intimacy and again,
unfortunately, that's often thescript.
The church writes that men are,and so we become blind, as you
(17:25):
named so well then, to seeingthat as no, that's actually an
abuser, that's not the image ofGod in a man.
I say often like and this feelsrevolutionary, but it's just
truth that men are equally ascapable as women at experiencing
emotional connection andattachment.
There's nothing different in aman that prevents him from
(17:48):
experiencing healthy emotionalattachment and secure attachment
, Right, but even that we'relike.
What Really, Men want?
That stuff, yes.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Men want that stuff all day.
That's what I sit with when Isit with men.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yes, and men when they are invited into a safe
space to express it and to startto get real about it and to
start I call it family of originrules, right, like so the
things that we were maybe grownup with that grown men don't cry
, you know?
I mean, this is baseball.
There's no crying in baseball,right From League of their Own,
(18:26):
that kind of deal when we invitemen into that different place
to go.
No, like, what does it mean totruly be an image bearer?
And Jesus wept right myfavorite verse in the Bible,
super easy to memorize.
But also he already knew he wasgoing to raise Lazarus from the
dead.
He knew what was coming and hestill felt the pain, he still
(18:49):
felt the compassion, he stillwept with people and it wasn't
like a sniffle, sniffle it waswailing yes and yes when we
invite our brothers into thosespaces of all you were created
to be.
Let's get familiar with thosedeep places and that deep well
within you, Gosh man.
That's where healing takesplace, Right.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
It's almost like if you just tell a man this is in
you, right, then they feel freeto go there finally and admit it
.
You know, my publisher, myeditor, was hesitant at first
with my use of the language oflover, right, my first chapter
is you are a lover.
And I came out of the gatehoping you know to get punchy
(19:31):
with we're going to go here.
And my publisher was like ohman, my editor especially like I
hope men connect to that.
Are men going to connect tothat?
And ultimately they agreed andsaid let's go for it.
And he said I think they will.
But we had that conversation andit's been amazing, a year in
now to the book being launched,how deeply men connect to that
(19:55):
word.
It's been a gift to me tonotice like, oh, you get it
right, it's in you, it just hasto be called out of you and
initiated.
And I talked, you know, in thatfirst chapter about how I felt
God initiated the lover in me,or a couple scenes of that.
But, right, it's almost like ifyou just tell men, this is,
(20:16):
you're fully capable of this,this is God's image in you, then
they feel empowered to go theremore.
But if you tell them.
No, you're just a lustfulanimal.
All you really want is thesexual release.
The romance is for the women.
What a dumb thing.
How did we?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
get there.
Right.
We have like Song of Songs whichis erotic love poetry, yes,
which is all about romance andboth the man and the woman are
writing it to each other andthey're both desirous, they're
both talking about desire, theyare both together and they're
(20:54):
boundaried right at one pointshe says no and he leaves and
she's like, oh, you know, and Ithink like the Song of Songs has
been one of the worst bookstaught ever, because it's always
used for premarital counselingand it's like so your wedding
night's going to be this, andI'm like, oh for the love.
First of all, I'd like you totalk about what the marriage is
going to be like and how do wehave a conversation, and there's
(21:15):
a lot more to it.
But how do we have realintimacy?
And I think it was Sue Johnsonwho created emotionally focused
couples therapy, that said itthis way.
Intimacy means into me, you see, and everybody needs to be seen
, both men and women.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yes, yes, that that word in Genesis of Adam and Eve
Adam knew Eve, right, Seeing sexas a knowing right.
And I know Sheila Gregoire haspointed this out that that same
word is used in Psalm 139, right, where David is talking about
you search to me and you know me.
You know when I sit and when Irise.
(21:51):
You perceive my thoughts fromafar, right, and you can almost
hear that as like lovers sayingyou could finish my sentences,
right.
You know what I love and what Idon't like.
You know my deepest hurts,right.
That's the kind of intimacythat's intended.
I love that language from SueJohnson.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Absolutely, and you know, as you're talking about
that, it reminded me of the lovemaps from the Gottmans right.
This is your baseline ofknowing your partner what makes
them them and Diane Langbergtalks about that Like as when
she's training counselors, likethe first thing you're supposed
to do is who is this person infront of me, what makes them
(22:32):
them right?
And that should be the firstthing in marriage, because that
matters.
And so we're teaching people gohave this raucous wedding night
and having these ridiculousbachelorette parties.
Some of the bridal showers I'vebeen to in the evangelical
church are suspect because like,here's a lingerie party and
it's like this is, this is notno ew.
(22:52):
It's like you're distillingdown the entire marriage to the
wedding night, which oftendoesn't live up to what people
expect anyway, because,especially if you did wait till
marriage, you don't know whatyou're doing.
No one knows what they're doing, and if it's your second
marriage, you still don't knowwhat you're doing because you
don't know this person and soyou know leaning in and going,
what do I like?
And we are not teaching that, weare not teaching what is
(23:13):
comfortable for you and thatcomes out of intimacy and
knowing your partner, justknowing them in general, outside
of intercourse and sexualcontact, but then also knowing
them in terms of how can we havethese conversations about
what's okay and what's not okayhere?
Yep, and if there's been sexualharm in this day and age, one
in six men and one in four womenhave been sexually harmed in
(23:37):
some way, and that's probablylow on the statistic.
Right, how are we entering intogether to say let me be tender
with you.
Let me know you so that we cancome together well.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Right, Right, I love that what you're saying there,
In other words, to know eachother's stories in a way that
would say I know your triggers,or I can at least anticipate
what experiences might be tenderfor you, and to be able to have
you know the possibility thatwe can always stop right.
(24:10):
Sex can always be stopped.
The play of sex to addresswhat's happening in your body
that might be painful, right, orwhether we stop altogether or
we pause, but right, wherethere's that tenderness to say
bringing you along with me isthe point.
It's not to get to somephysical release, you know which
(24:33):
.
Alexandra Katahakis, I thinkI'm saying that, right, Yep.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Alex Katahakis.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Okay, who says you know?
Sex for some men becomes a kindof almost autoerotic thing.
It's not even partnered right,it's not even dyadic, it's just
simply your, as you named.
You're a blow up doll that'sgoing to get me off.
And again, it's so degrading towomen, it is so degrading to
men as well.
Yes, that's all you are, ratherthan actually.
(25:01):
You're a really good lover whocan read and attune to your
partner and you'll be able tostop and address her pain Right,
or your own.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yes, or your own, because men have pain too.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yes, right, you know I tell some of this story in the
book that I did not know, thatI had a story of sexual harm
when I went into marriage.
But what I knew is when my wifewould initiate intimacy in our
first couple of years ofmarriage, even if it was just
affection in the kitchen, like ahug, my whole body would
(25:38):
bristle and tighten up and Iwould lock up like a board and
she would obviously begin toread my body.
Something had changed and I wasnot enjoying this and she would
back away and it felt verypersonally, rejecting,
understandably.
And I remember in our firstcouple of years of marriage she
said to me Understandably, and Iremember in our first couple of
(26:21):
years of marriage she said tome I need you to do something
about this, like what's going on?
And I didn't have an answer.
I didn't know what was going onin my body when she would hug
me and again, if I initiated, itwas fine, right, because again
I had power, I felt I had agency.
But if she initiated, my bodywould bristle and my body was
telling my story and so that's,you know, at that point in our
intimacy I went into counseling,really with an unknown.
I don't know what I'maddressing.
I just know my wife experiencesthis.
I love her.
I don't know why I'm doing this.
I enjoy her.
I don't know why I'm doing this.
I enjoy her.
And it was it began my journeyinto a deeper dive of my own
(26:44):
story, my own sexual harm, tobegin to an overt story of
sexual harm, right of sexualabuse.
But it's highly likely.
It's possible one in six.
But men are notoriously lessoutspoken about their abuse, so
(27:10):
it's probably higher.
Men tend to take it as I musthave been perverted or I must
have been weird.
Obviously women take that aswell, with that belief.
That's how we bury our storiesof abuse.
But you have stories that haveshaped you sexually.
There's an ongoing story andit's probably a silent one.
(27:31):
It's probably an unspoken one.
That's in the subtext.
Yes, those stories show up whenyou try to move towards
intimacy.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yes, those stories show up when you try to move
towards intimacy.
They do, they do, and you know,as you're talking, I'm thinking
about this that for those of usthat did grow up in the
evangelical church or in thechurch in general, I wonder how
much covert sexual abuse, orsexual dysfunction at the very
least, has been languaged justin what men say and, like you
(28:02):
had mentioned earlier, thephrase every man's battle, which
makes me unnaturally madbecause of the book of the same
name and the wickedness that Ibelieve that perpetrates.
And just looking at that andtelling men well, you're going
to struggle with lust andstruggle with porn and that sort
of thing, when that is not infact actually true.
And how many guys have beensexually abused through someone
(28:25):
showing them pornography orsomething similar, or having it
languaged, or having a youthpastor that was talking about it
or that made sexuallysuggestive comments?
I mean, we have pastors thatget up whose sermons are on the
Internet talking about theirsmoking hot wife.
That is not about herpersonhood, that is about her
body and what they can get fromit, and so I wonder how much, if
(28:47):
I'm being just really brutallyhonest, the church has
perpetuated sexual harm.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Right Yep.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
And I love the church .
Don't get me wrong.
I love Jesus, I love the church.
I think that it is a beautifulplace, but I do think that we
have to recognize spaces ofbrokenness.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Right, and there's something about the minimizing
as well of, as you named, like,oh, you know how we just say,
well, it's just lust.
We tend to put it in thesecategories that are often
spiritually bypassing of it.
You know, to say, well, hestruggles with us, or that
pastor stumbled, or right,whether it's even in the
teaching or just in how wescript.
When harm does happen, right,as we don't use the language of
(29:25):
trauma and abuse, we'll say itwas sin or it was even you know
he struggles with lust, and butwe don't understand, even there,
that lust is primarily aboutpower, yes, and so again, we
think of it as it's just anoverabundance of sexual urge,
that sort of spilled over right,like and how could you blame
(29:47):
them?
Right, the cup's full he's.
It just spills over the sidesometimes, right, and and rather
than seeing it as a veryintentional act of grasping at
power, of ego, stroking right,that's what lust is.
It is not primarily aboutsexual release, it isn't that,
but more in the name of the egoand the ego's pride.
(30:09):
So again, yes, we don't, wedon't look darkness in the face,
um, and we should be thebravest ones, as our friend dan
allender says, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
And you know, I think about some of the things that
Dan has in Healing the WoundedHeart, which is one of my
favorite books for sexual harmof all time.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
And even in that, because of the time period when
he wrote it, even the 20-yearupdate that he speaks mainly to
women's harm in a lot of ways,and there is a lot of harm for
women.
But as we're thinking aboutthis, I'm like well, how many
men were invited intopornography and sexual
dysfunction by their own fathers, by uncles?
Oh hey, watch this with me,this is what we do, you know,
(30:49):
while you have a beer whenyou're 13 or whatever, and that
is such a form of harm.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Right, right.
It's breaking my form of harmyes, right, and it's breaking my
heart right now.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yes, yes, you know most men hold that as their
shame.
Well, I looked, I looked atporn, but they don't ever stop
to wrestle with the setup, asyou're naming so well.
So many men's first experienceof pornography is actually a
story of sexual abuse, of sexualharm, where you were sexualized
(31:20):
by somebody, even if that wasquote unquote passively, by a
father who left his pornographyin the garage or in the attic or
by his nightstand.
Right, and this is back in thetime of more magazines were more
popular, but also including,you know, the kid that says, hey
, come look at this on his phone.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
And, before you know it, you're watching a scene of
sexual, of sex, of porn.
Right, that's a form ofsexualization.
Somebody sexualized you,somebody invited you in without
your consent and you need to beinformed.
To be consensual, you also needto be an adult.
So again to say you don't knowwhat you're consenting to if
(32:01):
you're under 18 right, yeah, youdon't you can't your prefrontal
cortex is not wired together.
You can, yes right, right, yeah,yes, yeah.
And again I would say you knowto men that hold so many men I
talk with, hold that story as Iwas perverted.
I looked, I was curious andagain feeling the contempt for
(32:25):
their own perversion or theirown arousal.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
We're meant to be curious.
You know, all of these thingsdesire curiosity.
That you talk about the play ofsex in your book, which I
adored, especially for so manytrauma survivors.
We have had play stolen from usin every realm, you know,
including relationships andlooking at the overall play of
(32:49):
sex and going.
This is meant to be delightful.
This is meant to be delightingit is meant to be good.
God created it as good, and youknow to invite people into that
place.
And so when you are exposed tosomething you shouldn't be and
look man, people who createpornography.
Their goal is to keep you stuckbecause that's how they make
their money.
Let's be honest, follow thedollar.
(33:10):
And when we look at that and wego, you know of course your
desire was played upon, yourdelight was played upon.
Of course it was, and we needto hold the purveyors of porn
responsible, not the little boythat looked and was drawn in,
especially little boys withtrauma.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Right, yep, right.
I had a couple come to me andthey have given me permission to
share this story.
Their watching old son came tothem and said mom, dad, I've
been struggling with pornographyand they were heartbroken, you
know, and and thought they hadthe filters up and everything
right.
And he told the story of whathappened.
(33:53):
And he had been at school andhe'd listened to some of his
friends talking about girls theywere interested in and he
realized he didn't know how tokiss a girl Right.
Which purely innocent, what abeautifully innocent curiosity
how do you kiss a girl?
And so he went to Google, typedit in how do you kiss a girl?
(34:14):
And again, because, as you'venamed well, pornographers are
looking for their next customerright, and if they can get a
lifetime customer, even better.
And pornography showed up inthe search results.
And he stumbled down that darkpath and he felt too ashamed to
bring it up for a while becauseit felt like it was his fault.
Yeah, but what could be moreinnocent than a question how to
(34:39):
kiss a girl?
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Right, which is such a reasonable question for a
teenage boy?
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Girls have these questions too.
We don't talk about them asmuch.
We all need to be talking aboutthis stuff because and as a
parent myself and you're aparent like it can be awkward to
talk about things with your kidand they also.
They feel awkward, everybody'sawkward together.
But when we are languagingthese things and also delighting
in the desire that God createdfor them, of course you're going
(35:07):
to feel this way.
Of course you're going todesire, first of all, intimacy
in general.
You're going to desire to beknown and loved.
You're going to desire physicalcontact.
You're going to desire pleasure.
Those are beautiful things.
We want to keep them in theright guardrails, of course.
But, what if we celebrated thatthat desire was there?
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Right, right, right and blessed the lover.
Yeah, right, blessed the loverand that young man, that
14-year-old, and his curiosityand desire to kiss.
Well, yes, right, that's a sextalk right there.
It is Conversation yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yes, and such a beautiful one One of the things
that I talked about in my bookwas the healthy, non-sexual
intimacy in relationships withthe opposite sex.
Again, a place the church hasnot gone as well as they would
have hoped, right, or at leastas I would have hoped.
(36:06):
But how do we begin, as friends, understanding intimacy with
the opposite sex in non-sexualways that you know eventually
then lead into that, so that wehave that more fulsome
understanding of what it is tobe connected humans?
Speaker 2 (36:22):
fulsome understanding of what it is to be connected
humans.
Yes, right, right, yeah, youknow.
Back to Sue Johnson, andparticularly around men.
You know Sue Johnson has thisquote where she talks about, you
know, when a couple comes toher and the wife says, you know
he's really into sex.
Why is that?
And she says something like youknow, I would be into sex too
if it was the only place otherthan the football field where I
(36:43):
got touch and held, right.
And again, what you're naming islike how we're set up, right,
for a man, obviously that's acultural thing.
Sex isn't meant to be the onlyplace you experience touch,
right, you know, other than thefootball field, right, but like
you're naming, like the abilityto even receive healthy touch,
(37:04):
hug right, affection, right,Sometimes that's the only way
men know how to ask for that andI'm not saying this is an
excuse, right, because they needto grow in this is by saying I
want sex, yeah.
And often then, when I ask men,well, what do you love about it
?
Right, they'll say things likeI love feeling desired, I love
(37:34):
feeling wanted.
It's one of the only places Ifeel wanted, is the only place,
one of the only places I canfeel like I can get touch and
comfort, yeah.
And so the question becomes whatif you could take those again?
That's awesome.
You want those in sex, right,those are good places for it.
But what if you could take thatinto other contexts?
What if you could own?
You want to be pursued.
Maybe you need to talk aboutsomething.
(37:54):
Maybe you just need toemotionally connect.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yes, yes, absolutely yeah.
I think about Kirk Thompson'squote we all come into the world
looking for someone, lookingfor us.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I don't think that ends Like ultimately, we find
that in Jesus, of course, butthat's also not the only answer.
Right Like, that is an answer.
It is a wonderful answer.
There are those of us who aresingle, who.
That is where we are going toget that right now, in lots of
ways it's that depth, but alsohe created us in community for
community, and that is such animportant thing.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
And so we should be getting touch.
I know, you know, lori Wilbert,that Ferguson, ferguson.
Wilbert.
Anyway, love her book.
He you know Lori Wilbert, is itWilbert?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Ferguson, ferguson, wilbert.
Anyway, sure Handle with care.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Love her book.
He, you know, talks about whatif we all understood the need
for touch in the church and thatdesperation for that.
Because you know, I think about, as a single woman, the good
friends that touch me when I goto church and sometimes that's
the only physical contact I get,but there are friends that look
for me, to hug me, and that'sbeautiful.
(39:00):
There's nothing at all sexualabout it, but it's deeply
connecting.
And what a gift we give to eachother when we are seen.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yes, yes, yes.
You know, I can remember when Iwas single and I was on this
camping trip with this, like wewere doing like a camping trip
slash, like therapy, diveexperience, and I can remember
it was it was men and women onthis camping trip and we were
sitting around the fire and Iwas processing something really
(39:31):
painful and I still, I mean itchanged my life.
But I remember one of the womenreached her hand over and just
started rubbing my back.
I mean it was like what?
It felt so safe and so good andit was so not sexual, it was
(39:54):
simply an offer of comfort in mypain.
Oh, you know the body's needfor that and how that can speak
love, yes.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Yes, one of my friends calls it skin hunger.
We all have it you know, and Ithink we've distilled it down
through some books and thingslike that oh, you want, you know
, acts of service or physicaltouch.
It's like no, no, no, we needall of those things.
You know, we may havepreferences for maybe something
over another thing, but we needthem all and we are desperate
for each other in relationshipand when we're in an intimate
(40:28):
relationship.
I think that that's an evenmore important, you know, factor
.
It's not the Jerry McGuire.
You complete me.
I do not need someone tocomplete me but I do need
someone to connect to me.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Right, right, yeah, well, said, yeah, yeah.
And again I'm leaning a littlebit here into Sue Johnson, but I
know Sue Johnson mentionssomething like everyone has
touch hunger.
She marks that, you know,little boys are held less as
infants than girls are.
In other words, there's aninherent kind of touch
(41:03):
deprivation that men go throughpossibly Again, I'm not saying
man for man, but in general, so,especially as a man obviously
that's my audience in my bookthe importance of learning to
find places and learning to knowhow to ask for touch, because
sometimes what's being asked forin sex is just that.
(41:24):
You know, I can think of awoman who I quoted in my book
and again, this was not a goodthing in her life.
She described to me I alwaysknew what kind of day my husband
had, based on how he had sexwith me that night.
And she said sometimes I couldtell he had a bad day because I
(41:45):
was the thing he needed toconquer at the end of his day
and she said it was awful.
It was not intimacy, you knowand I've reflected on her
experience which would be a formof harm uh, you know, long term
for her to experience that.
And I've thought to myself whatif that man could just say hey,
(42:07):
honey, I had a bad day.
Can I talk about it?
Yeah, right, and actually gotintimacy?
Yes, rather than being stuck inhis ego or his thirst for power
right, I've got to conquersomething.
What if he could just acceptit's okay to have a bad day,
right, and you're still lovable.
(42:29):
Yep, right.
What a gift that could havebeen to his wife as well.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
I could talk to you all day.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
All the things, gosh, what a beautiful life, giving
conversation, and this is one ofthe things, honestly, that's
most important to me, eventhough I often work with women
who have been harmed.
You know, and I do work withbatterers and I invite them into
change.
I invite them intoaccountability and change
because they are missing suchimportant things.
(42:59):
But and there's a whole othergroup of men out there that I
work with, that you work with,that are none of those right.
They're not batterers, they'renot coercive controllers.
They're men who have never beentaught to really truly walk in
the fullness of who God createdthem to be in all their parts
and ways.
And so I love that your bookinvites us to something there,
(43:21):
invites us into that space, andI will commend it to everyone,
whether they are a man or awoman.
I've given this to plenty ofwomen.
I give it to all the guys.
All my guys get this as areferral.
I'm like you need to go readthis and we're going to talk
about it, but for all of myladies as well.
I often encourage reading itbecause it presents a different
picture than maybe they haveeven heard about men, and it is
(43:44):
so beautiful, and so thank youfor the book, thank you for
spending time with us here andfor this conversation, and we
100% have to do it again, really, really soon.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Tabby, I would love that.
I've loved this conversationand have loved my journey into
your book as well, and wouldlove to come back.
It's very, very mutual.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Well, thank you so much, Sam, and all of your
information will be in thedescription so people can find
you, and thank you for hangingout here again on hey Tabby.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
(44:24):
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
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