August 11, 2025 • 24 mins
Are you quick to label someone a narcissist? This episode of Hey Tabi explores if the person hurting you displays signs of something even more dangerous. We'll cover dark psychology and challenge popular assumptions across the mental health spectrum as licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook dives deep into the concept of coercive control and why labeling a partner as a narcissist can miss the mark. Learn how coercive control deceives, manipulates, and endangers, and discover how to reclaim your clarity and safety. Get ready for an eye-opening discussion that may change the language you use about this forever. Listen now to understand the true severity of coercive control and why it's crucial for your well-being to understand. Don't miss out!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
you've heard it.
I've heard it he's a narcissist.
He's a covert narcissist.
Hear it all over the internet.
But what if the person hurtingyou isn't a narcissist, but
actually something far moredangerous?
We're going to talk about thattoday.
Welcome to hey tabby, thepodcast where we talk about the
hard things out loud, with ouractual lips.
(00:26):
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
(00:47):
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
So today we are going to breakdown why calling your partner a
narcissist, saying it'snarcissistic abuse or calling
them a covert narc is not thebest way to describe it and
(01:09):
really, truly, is missing thepoint.
We want to talk about whyunderstanding, really
understanding coercive controlreally could be the actual key
to reclaiming your clarity andyour safety.
Like I said when we started,the internet is full of talk
about narcissistic abuse.
All you have to do is a simpleGoogle search and there are
(01:30):
entire YouTube channels,podcasts, all kinds of things
dedicated to this one term butit is probably the most
unhelpful term to describe thisthat I can think of.
And we're going to talk aboutwhy.
If you've been listening to theshow, you and we're going to
talk about why, if you've beenlistening to the show, you know
our very first episode talkedabout why you shouldn't use
narcissistic abuse and how itcan harm people.
(01:51):
But we're going to take alittle bit of a deeper dive
today on this topic.
First, it is misleading forsurvivors.
I understand totally that it isshorthand, that it is a way to
convey something quickly so thatpeople kind of understand, but
it is too shorthand and itreally can put survivors into
(02:14):
this place where they're goingdown a rabbit hole of looking
for ways to fix this person,ways to get this person help for
their narcissistic tendenciesand all of that good stuff ways
to get this person help fortheir narcissistic tendencies,
and all of that good stuff.
Also, it really shifts thefocus from the behavior of the
individual to what ispotentially a personality
disorder diagnosis.
Now, why is that important.
Well, anyone who says, well,this is just a personality
(02:38):
disorder or something,oftentimes it's like, well,
maybe that can be fixed,especially in the Christian
realm.
I think when we put things inthat space and we do believe
that God can fix anything, thenwe are going to look for exactly
that.
Oh, they just need a change ofheart, they just need the right
treatment, they just need this,when in reality, the right kind
(03:00):
of treatment actually isaccountability and boundaries
for this and because, again,it's not narcissism, it is
something far different.
Also, when we're using the termnarcissist, we are honestly, in
some ways, even talking aboutourselves.
We all have a tendency at timesto self-focus, and that is
(03:23):
different than self-care.
Right, we all sometimes havethis ability to have a
narcissistic moment, if you will.
But coercive control is fardifferent than the occasional
yeah, I was really thinkingabout myself in this space and
it really does take away theweight of what coercive control
(03:47):
really is.
It also really reduces theurgency around safety planning.
We don't often think ofnarcissistic individuals as
actually dangerous.
We think of them asself-focused and definitely
unkind, but we don't necessarilyconsider the inherent danger.
And with coercive control it'sa much different paradigm.
(04:09):
There is the understanding thatthere is an inherent danger,
even if nothing overtly physicalhas occurred.
Now, if you've listened againfor some time, you do understand
that I believe that all abuseis physical abuse because,
unless you can take your brainout of your skull and stick it
in a jar, it is still a bodypart and it is dumping out all
(04:31):
kinds of neurochemicals thatimpact our bodies in very
negative ways when we are in acoercively controlling
relationship.
So I've said coercive control afew times and now I'm going to
give you a much deeperdefinition of it.
First, it is a pattern ofpsychological and emotional
domination that's used tomaintain power and control over
(04:53):
a partner.
So think about it this way it'snot just a one-off right.
So if we have a narcissistic,let's say, moment, or a
self-focused moment, or we hurtsomebody's feelings, we feel bad
, we apologize, we truly repent,which means we turn and go in
the other direction and we don'trepeat the behavior, we don't
harm somebody again.
(05:14):
It's not this ongoing thingthat we see very often in
coercive control.
Also, it can be very subtle incoercive control, getting the
silent treatment, so being icedout right.
This is just more than let metake a break.
I'm overwhelmed, I can't talkright now.
This is I'm going to ice youout and make you feel like trash
(05:35):
.
There can be monitoring of yourwhereabouts in all kinds of
different ways.
In all kinds of electronicstalking happens, and then
gaslighting, which is basicallymaking you think that you're
crazy, and gaslighting is not adisagreement.
Now, I probably need at thispoint to do an entire podcast on
that, because gaslighting hasbecome such a ubiquitous term
(05:56):
that it's used anytime someonedisagrees, and that is not what
gaslighting is.
Gaslighting is a systematicdeconstruction of your
personhood by making you believethat you're crazy.
This isn't saying I disagreewith you.
It's saying you are completelywrong.
The sky is not actually blue,it's a shade of hot pink, and
here is all the evidence of it,and it really is making you
(06:19):
think that you're crazy.
And they're very persuasive inthis process.
And so we really want tounderstand that gaslighting
isn't just well, I don't agreethat this is this way or that
way or whatever it's really moreof I don't agree with you and
also you're completely insane,right.
So it's really something somuch deeper than just a
(06:42):
disagreement.
Coercive control is always soulcrushing and it starts off if
you've heard me talk about thefunnel of captivity that Dr
Deborah Wingfield hasillustrated in her book Eyes
Wide Open, that the funnelstarts very wide at the
beginning of the relationshipvery often, and then it narrows
and narrows and narrows untilyou are a captive of this
(07:04):
individual, and so areas offreedom that you might have had
in one space suddenly becomeeroded over time with what seem
to be plausible excuses.
Well, you know, I've worked allday.
I really just want you herewith me.
I know you have your book clubtonight, and that keeps
happening until suddenly youfeel so guilty for going to book
club and not being the spousethat you think you should be
(07:26):
that you just stay home.
The next thing you know, whenyou say, hey, I'd like to start
a book club, Well, no, you can'tdo that.
I'm not going to give you thekeys to the car, I'm not going
to put gas in the car.
We have had clients where theperpetrator of abuse will take
all of the vehicle keys and thenalso do something to disable
the vehicle from running, liketake out the battery or
(07:47):
something like that, so thatthey can't go anywhere.
And that is a pretty high levelof wickedness and coercive
control.
And again, that's not justbeing self-focused, that's like
really being ugly to someone.
One of the things I say oftenis that coercive control is
battery of the soul, so it is apummeling of your personhood.
And again, that's so muchbigger than oh, he or she is a
(08:11):
narcissist.
Also, narcissistic personalitydisorder is a clinical diagnosis
.
Most people are not qualifiedto assess this and if you're
saying I hear you, tabitha, butI am just saying this person has
a narcissistic tendency, okay,but again, the tendency to be
(08:31):
self-focused, the tendency totry to get your way, is not the
same thing as being a coercivecontroller, which is a much
deeper level of characterproblem.
In my opinion.
It's a heart level issue.
They fundamentally do not seetheir partner as an image bearer
of the living God, and that isa problem.
It's more than just havingnarcissistic behavior.
(08:53):
That is seeing you as a couchthat can cook and make
sandwiches and do other thingsright.
It is property.
It's very different when welook at it.
Also, most abusers truly do notmeet the diagnostic criteria for
narcissistic personalitydisorder and that can be really
tricky if you're using that termwith a therapist and the
(09:15):
therapist is putting it in theirnotes and then their notes are
subpoenaed for a court hearing.
And then you know the judgesees that and says, oh, you're
high conflict.
That's like the first thingthat they're gonna say is, oh,
you're high conflict.
And then you're discounted.
And that's not ideal.
And look, no therapist thatyou're seeing can diagnose your
partner.
Without actually assessing thepartner by the way, we might be
(09:43):
able to say you know, those arereally.
Those sound like terriblebehavioral patterns.
I can see how it's affectingyou, but what we can't do is
diagnose somebody we've nevermet.
So if your therapist says intheir notes partner is a
narcissist, then if I'm a decentattorney, I'm going to go.
How do you know?
Ever met the person?
Did you run any tests?
Did you do any diagnosis?
And then that's alsoautomatically going to discount
your therapist.
If they need to provide theirnotes or testify on your behalf
(10:05):
in a trial just regarding yourtreatment, this can really
derail understanding theseverity of it.
If your relationship isn'ttextbook narcissism and what I
mean by that is if you have anidea in your head, or from
TikTok or from Instagram orwhatever, that this person is a
(10:26):
narcissist.
If they blank, blank, blank,blank, blank and your partner's
not doing that, then you mightsay, well, it's not that bad,
and we already have that happenwhere it's like well, I'm not
being hit, I wasn't throwndownstairs and all that stuff,
so I'm not sure it's reallyabusive.
We see that in our office allthe time, all the time.
So I want to caution againstthat because, again, we want you
(10:49):
to take the seriousness of thisvery to heart.
We want you to know where youshould safety plan.
And if you're dismissing itbecause it doesn't meet whatever
criteria you know you thinknarcissism is, if you're
dismissing it because it doesn'tmeet whatever criteria you know
you think narcissism is, thenyou could be in real trouble and
in real danger.
Also, it really presses in onthe ability of the coercively
(11:13):
controlling partner tomanipulate couples therapy.
So let's say, for example, yougo to a therapist that does not
know what they are doing anddoes not know what they are
seeing and they're like well,there's narcissistic tendencies.
We could try to teach thisperson how to take your side,
how to take influence, all thosethings.
It's going to be a giganticwaste of your time and money and
potentially quite dangerous.
And so when we get into thatnarcissism space, whether it's
(11:35):
narcissistic personalitydisorder, whether it is
narcissistic tendencies,narcissistic behavior, all of
those things then we are trulymislabeling things and it really
gets us in trouble.
And again, like I said, when yougo into court and you say
things like that, you areautomatically seen as high
conflict, you are automaticallyseen as the problem, unless
(11:58):
there is a diagnosis.
And my experience and theexperience of other people that
specialize in this, whether theyare therapists or advocates, is
that there rarely is thatdiagnosis.
Even if it were to be true, itrarely is going to get diagnosed
and brought into court.
And so then you are seen assomeone who is calling names and
making labels and that's nothelpful to you at all.
(12:21):
In fact, it could actually bevery detrimental to your case.
So what does coercive controllook like?
Well, when I sit across fromsomebody and this is the dynamic
of their relationshipoftentimes I hear things like oh
, I just feel like I can neverdo anything right.
I'm always walking on eggshellsOne minute it's this way and
(12:43):
the next minute it's that way,and I never know which is going
to be okay or if it's even goingto be some third standard I
haven't heard of yet.
I never got hit or I'm neverbeing beaten, there's no hands
laid on me, but I'm like scaredall the time, like I feel like
there's this moment that mypartner could just snap and take
me out, and I don't know why Ifeel that way, but like I know
(13:05):
that I don't want to disagree.
Disagreement in our house goesreally badly.
Those are some things that Ihear and I start asking
questions Like well, what elseis happening?
Are you allowed to come and gofreely?
Well, no, all my communicationsare monitored, like they have
my iCloud password.
They read my text messages,they read my journal, which is
(13:26):
just terrifying and awful.
They, you know, restrict myfinances.
I'm only allowed so much money.
If I spend more by even like 25cents because taxes went up or
the price of a good went up,then I am going to catch it when
I get home.
It's going to be really bad.
I have to provide the receiptor I'm only giving cash and I
can't go over a certain amount,no matter how many kids we have
(13:49):
or what the grocery bill is oranything like that.
I'm not allowed to makedecisions.
If something in the house needsfixed, either my spouse is
going to pay for it and get itfixed or it just doesn't get
fixed, undermining parenting.
Oh, kids, your mom is justcrazy Gosh.
Look at how dysregulated ordiscombobulated or nuts mom is.
Oh, you don't have to listen tomom, I've got you Undermining
(14:11):
parenting in every way.
Or mom's not strict enough.
This is when I've heard a lotfrom abusive pastors actually
that are abusing their spousesand children, and it's oh, you
are not disciplining thechildren with enough force and
so you're going to send them allto hell essentially.
And that is so awful.
(14:31):
And it tells the kids I deservepunishment, I deserve harm, and
I've seen these kids asteenagers go there's nothing
good about me and all I deserveis to be beaten.
And they end up in badrelationships or they act out
trying to establish control anddominance over someone else
because they've never had anyautonomy in their home.
They also weaponize thevictim's faith or therapy.
(14:54):
So if someone is a veryfaithful person, they will take
scripture and say well, if youreally love God, then it looks
like this or if you go to atherapist and you start setting
boundaries, oh, your therapistjust hates me.
Your therapist is not godly,your therapist is this or that.
I have had clients tell me oh,you got a shout out from my
(15:15):
abusive spouse.
They say that you're justcausing me to hate them or
whatever, which is obviouslynever true.
I don't tell people to getdivorced.
I don't do any of those thingsno good therapist does.
If that ends up being the case,it's because the other person
was so wicked and refused tochange that they ended their own
marriage.
So it's very rarely a therapistthat's going to tell you
(15:38):
anything like that.
We can get now into the dangersof mislabeling something as
narcissistic.
Like I said earlier, it reallyminimizes the potential danger
for a victim.
Oh, this person's justdifficult.
They're just narcissistic.
It belies how very dangerousthey can be.
(15:58):
Even if you have not beenthrown down a set of stairs and
you don't believe the abuse thatyou have received to be
physical, it can change fromwords to actions within an
instant.
It's one of the reasons thatone of the first things that we
do is safety planning, and Ihave so many clients go.
I don't need that.
He would never to find out thathe actually does, and I have
(16:20):
yet and I've been doing this avery long time now I have yet to
put a safety plan in place witha client where we did not use
some aspect of it, and I justsay that because I know
sometimes when a victim hearsyou know we really should do a
safety plan, let's kind of talkabout what safety looks like for
you, where your lines in thesand are for this and all of
that, that a victim goes, oh, oh, no, no, no, it will never get
(16:42):
to that point and it is so notuncommon that, as victims heal,
it does in fact get to thatpoint, and sometimes very
quickly.
So for saying someone's just anarcissist and just discounting
it, dismissing it, then we arenot safety planning in a way
that is helpful and again, likeI've said already, it causes
(17:03):
confusion in the court and withlegal systems.
It is not a helpful paradigm tofollow.
It really is going to harm youin the end, especially with
regard to child custody.
I have seen it go verynegatively for the protective
parent when those kinds of wordsare used in a court setting.
It also brings in false hope intherapy.
(17:26):
Well, if it's a mental healthissue, then you can treat it
with mental health therapy.
Now, I'm not saying thatcoercive controllers don't have
trauma in their life or abuse intheir life or things that need
to be worked through.
However, the first thing theyneed is accountability, and if
you're treating it in the wrongway and not understanding the
(17:46):
appropriate way to deal withsomeone who is destructive, then
you are going to fail attherapy every single time and
again, like I said, marriagetherapy is going to be a failure
at best and outright dangerousto the victim at worst.
We want to call it what it iscoercive control, because again
it reframes things to let'sstart with safety and
(18:08):
accountability for theperpetrator.
So safety for the victim,accountability for the
perpetrator, and then let's gofrom there and see whether this
individual is interested inchange, interested in health,
and while we're doing that,we're keeping the victim and any
minor children safe.
Right, and when we have theright words, we often have the
right treatment plan or theright path forward, and that is
(18:32):
what we are looking for.
It's why it is so important.
So you might be sitting therenow and going oh no, I think my
relationship might be coercivelycontrolling.
Here are just some reallysimple things that you can ask
yourself to see where yourrelationship is.
Can I say no without punishmentand I don't mean without
(18:56):
disappointment, right?
When we say no to someone,sometimes people are
disappointed.
It's how that disappointment ishandled or the disagreement is
handled.
That is important.
So if you can say no and yourpartner's disappointed, but they
don't treat you differently orthey might say I just need a few
minutes, I'm really hurt bythis, whatever it is, then they
(19:17):
come back to you they're notdenigrating you as a person,
that sort of thing then you'reprobably okay.
If you say no and they say youdon't love me, you clearly hate
me.
Wow, you're so selfish, youknow, I think you're a
narcissist because it has toalways be your way or no way, I
will say coercively controllingindividuals are very good at
(19:38):
calling other people narcissists.
Very, very good actually.
You can look at all of thosethings and say, well, yeah, I
said no to this and I wasn'tspoken to for three days, like
at all.
Like did walk by me and look atme with utter hatred.
Right, you're probably at leastgot a yellow flag there, maybe
a flat out red flag.
Am I afraid to disagree?
(19:59):
What happens when you disagreewith someone?
What happens when you say no, Idon't want to do this, I don't
agree with you, or hey, I don'tsee that the same way.
How do they respond?
Do they belittle you, demeanyou, tell you how stupid that
you are.
All of those things would be bigtime red flags that your
relationship is coercivelycontrolling.
Does my partner use my faith,my therapy or my trauma against
(20:22):
me?
Well, you're just setting thisboundary because of your
childhood trauma.
Okay, maybe.
But also, even if that's a yes,even if you are, then why
wouldn't they be tender and kindand caring with you and say oh,
I wonder if there's somerecovery needed here.
How can I come alongside you Ifthey are saying you know well,
(20:43):
when you go to the pastor, let'ssay well, I mean, she was
abused as a child and so this isclearly just coming from that.
She thinks I'm her father, withtotal contempt.
That is a big old red flag.
So what do we do if we're likeoh no, this is in fact me.
(21:04):
Well, first you want to find atherapist or advocate or
somebody that knows what they'redoing.
One big resource is Called toPeace Ministries.
They provide advocates free ofcharge to people.
You can be anywhere in thecountry or in the world.
You can find them atcalledtopieceorg and ask for an
advocate there.
There's also safety planningtools online, so you can go to
domesticsheltersorg and thereare all kinds of safety planning
(21:25):
templates there as well.
So if you're like I probablyneed to start with that for me,
you can do that.
I will say anytime you go to awebsite, because electronic
stalking is so common that youmight want to do it from
somewhere that you know is safe,and also find trauma counselors
that are specialized indomestic abuse and coercive
control.
(21:45):
You do not want to go to couplescounseling.
This is not a situation whereif he just went to therapy or
she just went to therapy, allthings would be fine.
It's not the way that it works.
What I want you to do is go.
Does this person understandtrauma and do they understand
coercive control?
And if they do not, then thatwould not be the right fit for
(22:05):
you, particularly coercivecontrol.
I have seen so many therapistsmake missteps because they do
not understand the dynamics ofcoercive control.
So I really want to encourageyou to ask some of those
questions, and we have aquestion list that you can ask
about how to find a goodtherapist that knows this, and I
(22:26):
will link that in thedescription.
I know that it is so much easiersometimes to just use the term
narcissist.
It's shorter, it's easier.
Narcissistic flows off thetongue quite lovely.
However, coercive controller ismuch more accurate and actually
much safer for you and this isa really important fact.
(22:48):
And we're also seeing the legalsystem catch up with the
understanding of coercivecontrol.
In fact, there are a number ofstates now that include coercive
control language in their laws.
So when you're using the samelanguage that matches the legal
system, that is going to helpyou so much more in court.
Now we know the courts have along way to go in understanding
(23:12):
these dynamics and all of thatstuff, but we also know that
we're further than we were whenwe first started.
So we're not at the top of themountain, but we're definitely
no longer at the bottom.
But victims and survivors andpeople helpers, using the right
language is vital to continuingto combat this wickedness and
(23:34):
this problem.
You do not need a diagnosis or amental health term to justify
the pain of abuse and coercivecontrol.
You absolutely deserve to besafe, respected and free, and
God is not a God of oppression.
God is not telling you tosuffer under wickedness, to look
(23:54):
like Jesus.
That would be a completemisapplication of scripture.
If you're thinking oh gosh,this really is me.
Take some breaths, take somenext steps.
Everything, like I said will bein the description below, and
hopefully this can help you getbetter clarity.
Get better clarity for yourself, for a friend, for someone that
(24:16):
you care about.
Maybe even give this episode toyour pastors and elders, if it
would be helpful for them tounderstand these dynamics
differently.
I'm super glad that you joinedme this week for hey Tabby.
Thank you so much and I willsee you again next time.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
(24:39):
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom forwardslash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
you've heard it.
I've heard it he's a narcissist.
He's a covert narcissist.
Hear it all over the internet.
But what if the person hurtingyou isn't a narcissist, but
actually something far moredangerous?
We're going to talk about thattoday.
Welcome to hey tabby, thepodcast where we talk about the
hard things out loud, with ouractual lips.
(00:26):
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
(00:47):
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
So today we are going to breakdown why calling your partner a
narcissist, saying it'snarcissistic abuse or calling
them a covert narc is not thebest way to describe it and
(01:09):
really, truly, is missing thepoint.
We want to talk about whyunderstanding, really
understanding coercive controlreally could be the actual key
to reclaiming your clarity andyour safety.
Like I said when we started,the internet is full of talk
about narcissistic abuse.
All you have to do is a simpleGoogle search and there are
(01:30):
entire YouTube channels,podcasts, all kinds of things
dedicated to this one term butit is probably the most
unhelpful term to describe thisthat I can think of.
And we're going to talk aboutwhy.
If you've been listening to theshow, you and we're going to
talk about why, if you've beenlistening to the show, you know
our very first episode talkedabout why you shouldn't use
narcissistic abuse and how itcan harm people.
(01:51):
But we're going to take alittle bit of a deeper dive
today on this topic.
First, it is misleading forsurvivors.
I understand totally that it isshorthand, that it is a way to
convey something quickly so thatpeople kind of understand, but
it is too shorthand and itreally can put survivors into
(02:14):
this place where they're goingdown a rabbit hole of looking
for ways to fix this person,ways to get this person help for
their narcissistic tendenciesand all of that good stuff ways
to get this person help fortheir narcissistic tendencies,
and all of that good stuff.
Also, it really shifts thefocus from the behavior of the
individual to what ispotentially a personality
disorder diagnosis.
Now, why is that important.
Well, anyone who says, well,this is just a personality
(02:38):
disorder or something,oftentimes it's like, well,
maybe that can be fixed,especially in the Christian
realm.
I think when we put things inthat space and we do believe
that God can fix anything, thenwe are going to look for exactly
that.
Oh, they just need a change ofheart, they just need the right
treatment, they just need this,when in reality, the right kind
(03:00):
of treatment actually isaccountability and boundaries
for this and because, again,it's not narcissism, it is
something far different.
Also, when we're using the termnarcissist, we are honestly, in
some ways, even talking aboutourselves.
We all have a tendency at timesto self-focus, and that is
(03:23):
different than self-care.
Right, we all sometimes havethis ability to have a
narcissistic moment, if you will.
But coercive control is fardifferent than the occasional
yeah, I was really thinkingabout myself in this space and
it really does take away theweight of what coercive control
(03:47):
really is.
It also really reduces theurgency around safety planning.
We don't often think ofnarcissistic individuals as
actually dangerous.
We think of them asself-focused and definitely
unkind, but we don't necessarilyconsider the inherent danger.
And with coercive control it'sa much different paradigm.
(04:09):
There is the understanding thatthere is an inherent danger,
even if nothing overtly physicalhas occurred.
Now, if you've listened againfor some time, you do understand
that I believe that all abuseis physical abuse because,
unless you can take your brainout of your skull and stick it
in a jar, it is still a bodypart and it is dumping out all
(04:31):
kinds of neurochemicals thatimpact our bodies in very
negative ways when we are in acoercively controlling
relationship.
So I've said coercive control afew times and now I'm going to
give you a much deeperdefinition of it.
First, it is a pattern ofpsychological and emotional
domination that's used tomaintain power and control over
(04:53):
a partner.
So think about it this way it'snot just a one-off right.
So if we have a narcissistic,let's say, moment, or a
self-focused moment, or we hurtsomebody's feelings, we feel bad
, we apologize, we truly repent,which means we turn and go in
the other direction and we don'trepeat the behavior, we don't
harm somebody again.
(05:14):
It's not this ongoing thingthat we see very often in
coercive control.
Also, it can be very subtle incoercive control, getting the
silent treatment, so being icedout right.
This is just more than let metake a break.
I'm overwhelmed, I can't talkright now.
This is I'm going to ice youout and make you feel like trash
(05:35):
.
There can be monitoring of yourwhereabouts in all kinds of
different ways.
In all kinds of electronicstalking happens, and then
gaslighting, which is basicallymaking you think that you're
crazy, and gaslighting is not adisagreement.
Now, I probably need at thispoint to do an entire podcast on
that, because gaslighting hasbecome such a ubiquitous term
(05:56):
that it's used anytime someonedisagrees, and that is not what
gaslighting is.
Gaslighting is a systematicdeconstruction of your
personhood by making you believethat you're crazy.
This isn't saying I disagreewith you.
It's saying you are completelywrong.
The sky is not actually blue,it's a shade of hot pink, and
here is all the evidence of it,and it really is making you
(06:19):
think that you're crazy.
And they're very persuasive inthis process.
And so we really want tounderstand that gaslighting
isn't just well, I don't agreethat this is this way or that
way or whatever it's really moreof I don't agree with you and
also you're completely insane,right.
So it's really something somuch deeper than just a
(06:42):
disagreement.
Coercive control is always soulcrushing and it starts off if
you've heard me talk about thefunnel of captivity that Dr
Deborah Wingfield hasillustrated in her book Eyes
Wide Open, that the funnelstarts very wide at the
beginning of the relationshipvery often, and then it narrows
and narrows and narrows untilyou are a captive of this
(07:04):
individual, and so areas offreedom that you might have had
in one space suddenly becomeeroded over time with what seem
to be plausible excuses.
Well, you know, I've worked allday.
I really just want you herewith me.
I know you have your book clubtonight, and that keeps
happening until suddenly youfeel so guilty for going to book
club and not being the spousethat you think you should be
(07:26):
that you just stay home.
The next thing you know, whenyou say, hey, I'd like to start
a book club, Well, no, you can'tdo that.
I'm not going to give you thekeys to the car, I'm not going
to put gas in the car.
We have had clients where theperpetrator of abuse will take
all of the vehicle keys and thenalso do something to disable
the vehicle from running, liketake out the battery or
(07:47):
something like that, so thatthey can't go anywhere.
And that is a pretty high levelof wickedness and coercive
control.
And again, that's not justbeing self-focused, that's like
really being ugly to someone.
One of the things I say oftenis that coercive control is
battery of the soul, so it is apummeling of your personhood.
And again, that's so muchbigger than oh, he or she is a
(08:11):
narcissist.
Also, narcissistic personalitydisorder is a clinical diagnosis
.
Most people are not qualifiedto assess this and if you're
saying I hear you, tabitha, butI am just saying this person has
a narcissistic tendency, okay,but again, the tendency to be
(08:31):
self-focused, the tendency totry to get your way, is not the
same thing as being a coercivecontroller, which is a much
deeper level of characterproblem.
In my opinion.
It's a heart level issue.
They fundamentally do not seetheir partner as an image bearer
of the living God, and that isa problem.
It's more than just havingnarcissistic behavior.
(08:53):
That is seeing you as a couchthat can cook and make
sandwiches and do other thingsright.
It is property.
It's very different when welook at it.
Also, most abusers truly do notmeet the diagnostic criteria for
narcissistic personalitydisorder and that can be really
tricky if you're using that termwith a therapist and the
(09:15):
therapist is putting it in theirnotes and then their notes are
subpoenaed for a court hearing.
And then you know the judgesees that and says, oh, you're
high conflict.
That's like the first thingthat they're gonna say is, oh,
you're high conflict.
And then you're discounted.
And that's not ideal.
And look, no therapist thatyou're seeing can diagnose your
partner.
Without actually assessing thepartner by the way, we might be
(09:43):
able to say you know, those arereally.
Those sound like terriblebehavioral patterns.
I can see how it's affectingyou, but what we can't do is
diagnose somebody we've nevermet.
So if your therapist says intheir notes partner is a
narcissist, then if I'm a decentattorney, I'm going to go.
How do you know?
Ever met the person?
Did you run any tests?
Did you do any diagnosis?
And then that's alsoautomatically going to discount
your therapist.
If they need to provide theirnotes or testify on your behalf
(10:05):
in a trial just regarding yourtreatment, this can really
derail understanding theseverity of it.
If your relationship isn'ttextbook narcissism and what I
mean by that is if you have anidea in your head, or from
TikTok or from Instagram orwhatever, that this person is a
(10:26):
narcissist.
If they blank, blank, blank,blank, blank and your partner's
not doing that, then you mightsay, well, it's not that bad,
and we already have that happenwhere it's like well, I'm not
being hit, I wasn't throwndownstairs and all that stuff,
so I'm not sure it's reallyabusive.
We see that in our office allthe time, all the time.
So I want to caution againstthat because, again, we want you
(10:49):
to take the seriousness of thisvery to heart.
We want you to know where youshould safety plan.
And if you're dismissing itbecause it doesn't meet whatever
criteria you know you thinknarcissism is, if you're
dismissing it because it doesn'tmeet whatever criteria you know
you think narcissism is, thenyou could be in real trouble and
in real danger.
Also, it really presses in onthe ability of the coercively
(11:13):
controlling partner tomanipulate couples therapy.
So let's say, for example, yougo to a therapist that does not
know what they are doing anddoes not know what they are
seeing and they're like well,there's narcissistic tendencies.
We could try to teach thisperson how to take your side,
how to take influence, all thosethings.
It's going to be a giganticwaste of your time and money and
potentially quite dangerous.
And so when we get into thatnarcissism space, whether it's
(11:35):
narcissistic personalitydisorder, whether it is
narcissistic tendencies,narcissistic behavior, all of
those things then we are trulymislabeling things and it really
gets us in trouble.
And again, like I said, when yougo into court and you say
things like that, you areautomatically seen as high
conflict, you are automaticallyseen as the problem, unless
(11:58):
there is a diagnosis.
And my experience and theexperience of other people that
specialize in this, whether theyare therapists or advocates, is
that there rarely is thatdiagnosis.
Even if it were to be true, itrarely is going to get diagnosed
and brought into court.
And so then you are seen assomeone who is calling names and
making labels and that's nothelpful to you at all.
(12:21):
In fact, it could actually bevery detrimental to your case.
So what does coercive controllook like?
Well, when I sit across fromsomebody and this is the dynamic
of their relationshipoftentimes I hear things like oh
, I just feel like I can neverdo anything right.
I'm always walking on eggshellsOne minute it's this way and
(12:43):
the next minute it's that way,and I never know which is going
to be okay or if it's even goingto be some third standard I
haven't heard of yet.
I never got hit or I'm neverbeing beaten, there's no hands
laid on me, but I'm like scaredall the time, like I feel like
there's this moment that mypartner could just snap and take
me out, and I don't know why Ifeel that way, but like I know
(13:05):
that I don't want to disagree.
Disagreement in our house goesreally badly.
Those are some things that Ihear and I start asking
questions Like well, what elseis happening?
Are you allowed to come and gofreely?
Well, no, all my communicationsare monitored, like they have
my iCloud password.
They read my text messages,they read my journal, which is
(13:26):
just terrifying and awful.
They, you know, restrict myfinances.
I'm only allowed so much money.
If I spend more by even like 25cents because taxes went up or
the price of a good went up,then I am going to catch it when
I get home.
It's going to be really bad.
I have to provide the receiptor I'm only giving cash and I
can't go over a certain amount,no matter how many kids we have
(13:49):
or what the grocery bill is oranything like that.
I'm not allowed to makedecisions.
If something in the house needsfixed, either my spouse is
going to pay for it and get itfixed or it just doesn't get
fixed, undermining parenting.
Oh, kids, your mom is justcrazy Gosh.
Look at how dysregulated ordiscombobulated or nuts mom is.
Oh, you don't have to listen tomom, I've got you Undermining
(14:11):
parenting in every way.
Or mom's not strict enough.
This is when I've heard a lotfrom abusive pastors actually
that are abusing their spousesand children, and it's oh, you
are not disciplining thechildren with enough force and
so you're going to send them allto hell essentially.
And that is so awful.
(14:31):
And it tells the kids I deservepunishment, I deserve harm, and
I've seen these kids asteenagers go there's nothing
good about me and all I deserveis to be beaten.
And they end up in badrelationships or they act out
trying to establish control anddominance over someone else
because they've never had anyautonomy in their home.
They also weaponize thevictim's faith or therapy.
(14:54):
So if someone is a veryfaithful person, they will take
scripture and say well, if youreally love God, then it looks
like this or if you go to atherapist and you start setting
boundaries, oh, your therapistjust hates me.
Your therapist is not godly,your therapist is this or that.
I have had clients tell me oh,you got a shout out from my
(15:15):
abusive spouse.
They say that you're justcausing me to hate them or
whatever, which is obviouslynever true.
I don't tell people to getdivorced.
I don't do any of those thingsno good therapist does.
If that ends up being the case,it's because the other person
was so wicked and refused tochange that they ended their own
marriage.
So it's very rarely a therapistthat's going to tell you
(15:38):
anything like that.
We can get now into the dangersof mislabeling something as
narcissistic.
Like I said earlier, it reallyminimizes the potential danger
for a victim.
Oh, this person's justdifficult.
They're just narcissistic.
It belies how very dangerousthey can be.
(15:58):
Even if you have not beenthrown down a set of stairs and
you don't believe the abuse thatyou have received to be
physical, it can change fromwords to actions within an
instant.
It's one of the reasons thatone of the first things that we
do is safety planning, and Ihave so many clients go.
I don't need that.
He would never to find out thathe actually does, and I have
(16:20):
yet and I've been doing this avery long time now I have yet to
put a safety plan in place witha client where we did not use
some aspect of it, and I justsay that because I know
sometimes when a victim hearsyou know we really should do a
safety plan, let's kind of talkabout what safety looks like for
you, where your lines in thesand are for this and all of
that, that a victim goes, oh, oh, no, no, no, it will never get
(16:42):
to that point and it is so notuncommon that, as victims heal,
it does in fact get to thatpoint, and sometimes very
quickly.
So for saying someone's just anarcissist and just discounting
it, dismissing it, then we arenot safety planning in a way
that is helpful and again, likeI've said already, it causes
(17:03):
confusion in the court and withlegal systems.
It is not a helpful paradigm tofollow.
It really is going to harm youin the end, especially with
regard to child custody.
I have seen it go verynegatively for the protective
parent when those kinds of wordsare used in a court setting.
It also brings in false hope intherapy.
(17:26):
Well, if it's a mental healthissue, then you can treat it
with mental health therapy.
Now, I'm not saying thatcoercive controllers don't have
trauma in their life or abuse intheir life or things that need
to be worked through.
However, the first thing theyneed is accountability, and if
you're treating it in the wrongway and not understanding the
(17:46):
appropriate way to deal withsomeone who is destructive, then
you are going to fail attherapy every single time and
again, like I said, marriagetherapy is going to be a failure
at best and outright dangerousto the victim at worst.
We want to call it what it iscoercive control, because again
it reframes things to let'sstart with safety and
(18:08):
accountability for theperpetrator.
So safety for the victim,accountability for the
perpetrator, and then let's gofrom there and see whether this
individual is interested inchange, interested in health,
and while we're doing that,we're keeping the victim and any
minor children safe.
Right, and when we have theright words, we often have the
right treatment plan or theright path forward, and that is
(18:32):
what we are looking for.
It's why it is so important.
So you might be sitting therenow and going oh no, I think my
relationship might be coercivelycontrolling.
Here are just some reallysimple things that you can ask
yourself to see where yourrelationship is.
Can I say no without punishmentand I don't mean without
(18:56):
disappointment, right?
When we say no to someone,sometimes people are
disappointed.
It's how that disappointment ishandled or the disagreement is
handled.
That is important.
So if you can say no and yourpartner's disappointed, but they
don't treat you differently orthey might say I just need a few
minutes, I'm really hurt bythis, whatever it is, then they
(19:17):
come back to you they're notdenigrating you as a person,
that sort of thing then you'reprobably okay.
If you say no and they say youdon't love me, you clearly hate
me.
Wow, you're so selfish, youknow, I think you're a
narcissist because it has toalways be your way or no way, I
will say coercively controllingindividuals are very good at
(19:38):
calling other people narcissists.
Very, very good actually.
You can look at all of thosethings and say, well, yeah, I
said no to this and I wasn'tspoken to for three days, like
at all.
Like did walk by me and look atme with utter hatred.
Right, you're probably at leastgot a yellow flag there, maybe
a flat out red flag.
Am I afraid to disagree?
(19:59):
What happens when you disagreewith someone?
What happens when you say no, Idon't want to do this, I don't
agree with you, or hey, I don'tsee that the same way.
How do they respond?
Do they belittle you, demeanyou, tell you how stupid that
you are.
All of those things would be bigtime red flags that your
relationship is coercivelycontrolling.
Does my partner use my faith,my therapy or my trauma against
(20:22):
me?
Well, you're just setting thisboundary because of your
childhood trauma.
Okay, maybe.
But also, even if that's a yes,even if you are, then why
wouldn't they be tender and kindand caring with you and say oh,
I wonder if there's somerecovery needed here.
How can I come alongside you Ifthey are saying you know well,
(20:43):
when you go to the pastor, let'ssay well, I mean, she was
abused as a child and so this isclearly just coming from that.
She thinks I'm her father, withtotal contempt.
That is a big old red flag.
So what do we do if we're likeoh no, this is in fact me.
(21:04):
Well, first you want to find atherapist or advocate or
somebody that knows what they'redoing.
One big resource is Called toPeace Ministries.
They provide advocates free ofcharge to people.
You can be anywhere in thecountry or in the world.
You can find them atcalledtopieceorg and ask for an
advocate there.
There's also safety planningtools online, so you can go to
domesticsheltersorg and thereare all kinds of safety planning
(21:25):
templates there as well.
So if you're like I probablyneed to start with that for me,
you can do that.
I will say anytime you go to awebsite, because electronic
stalking is so common that youmight want to do it from
somewhere that you know is safe,and also find trauma counselors
that are specialized indomestic abuse and coercive
control.
(21:45):
You do not want to go to couplescounseling.
This is not a situation whereif he just went to therapy or
she just went to therapy, allthings would be fine.
It's not the way that it works.
What I want you to do is go.
Does this person understandtrauma and do they understand
coercive control?
And if they do not, then thatwould not be the right fit for
(22:05):
you, particularly coercivecontrol.
I have seen so many therapistsmake missteps because they do
not understand the dynamics ofcoercive control.
So I really want to encourageyou to ask some of those
questions, and we have aquestion list that you can ask
about how to find a goodtherapist that knows this, and I
(22:26):
will link that in thedescription.
I know that it is so much easiersometimes to just use the term
narcissist.
It's shorter, it's easier.
Narcissistic flows off thetongue quite lovely.
However, coercive controller ismuch more accurate and actually
much safer for you and this isa really important fact.
(22:48):
And we're also seeing the legalsystem catch up with the
understanding of coercivecontrol.
In fact, there are a number ofstates now that include coercive
control language in their laws.
So when you're using the samelanguage that matches the legal
system, that is going to helpyou so much more in court.
Now we know the courts have along way to go in understanding
(23:12):
these dynamics and all of thatstuff, but we also know that
we're further than we were whenwe first started.
So we're not at the top of themountain, but we're definitely
no longer at the bottom.
But victims and survivors andpeople helpers, using the right
language is vital to continuingto combat this wickedness and
(23:34):
this problem.
You do not need a diagnosis or amental health term to justify
the pain of abuse and coercivecontrol.
You absolutely deserve to besafe, respected and free, and
God is not a God of oppression.
God is not telling you tosuffer under wickedness, to look
(23:54):
like Jesus.
That would be a completemisapplication of scripture.
If you're thinking oh gosh,this really is me.
Take some breaths, take somenext steps.
Everything, like I said will bein the description below, and
hopefully this can help you getbetter clarity.
Get better clarity for yourself, for a friend, for someone that
(24:16):
you care about.
Maybe even give this episode toyour pastors and elders, if it
would be helpful for them tounderstand these dynamics
differently.
I'm super glad that you joinedme this week for hey Tabby.
Thank you so much and I willsee you again next time.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
(24:39):
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom forwardslash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
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