September 8, 2025 • 29 mins
Teen dating violence and emotional abuse isn’t just “puppy love gone wrong.” It’s a serious issue that affects 1 in 3 teens, often before they even graduate high school. And it rarely starts with bruises - it starts with control, pressure, manipulation, isolation, and fear.
In this episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook breaks down what teen coercive control really looks like, the warning signs parents and teens should never ignore, and how faith communities can respond with wisdom and compassion.
We’ll cover:
✅ The difference between conflict and coercive control
✅ Red flags every teen and parent should know
✅ The impact of shame, secrecy, and spiritual confusion
✅ How to help your teen build healthy, God-honoring relationships
✅ Practical steps for safety, healing, and hope
If you’re a parent, teen, or church leader who wants to better understand how abuse can start early - and how to break the cycle before it takes root - this conversation is for you.
📌 Resources Mentioned:
National Teen Dating Abuse Helpline: https://www.loveisrespect.org
Domestic Shelters.org - https://www.domesticshelters.org/
Learn more about trauma-informed care & parenting coaching: https://www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
👉 Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share this episode to spread awareness and help protect the next generation.
At The Journey and The Process we strive to help you heal. Our therapists are trauma specialists who use evidence-based tools like EMDR, Brainspotting, Somatic Experiencing, and Internal Family Systems to help you heal - mind, soul, and body. Reach out today to start your healing journey. https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com
💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
📲 The Journey & The Process Instagram - www.instagram.com/_tjatp
Subscribe to my YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there
👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!
🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
Need to know how to find a great therapist? Read this...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tabitha Westbrook (00:00):
When we think about abuse, most of us picture
adult relationships, but thetruth is, many abusive patterns
actually start a lot earlier.
Just like adults, one in threeteens are going to experience
some form of dating abuse andcoercive control before they
even graduate high school.
And often it doesn't look likebruises.
(00:21):
It looks like constant texting,pressure to prove your love,
being isolated from friends orfeeling like you can't ever say
no.
Today on hey Tabby, we aretalking about teen dating
violence, or I'd rather call itteen coercive control, what it
looks like, how to spot it and,most importantly, how to protect
(00:42):
and empower the next generation.
Welcome to hey Tabby, thepodcast where we talk about the
hard things out loud, with ouractual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist.
(01:05):
But I'm not your traumatherapist.
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof hey Tabby.
I am so glad that you are hereToday.
(01:27):
As I mentioned, we are going tobe talking about coercive
control relationships inteenagers, and I really wish
that it did not happen.
I wish that this was not like athing.
Unfortunately, it is actually athing and I've worked with so
many teens that experience this,and a lot of times I will get
(01:47):
also adults who start telling meabout their high school
relationships and this is partof their story and they've never
told anybody.
So I want to talk today aboutwhy we need to understand this,
why it's important, and also howto really start understanding,
how to get ahead of it,basically how we can stop this
(02:09):
problem and hopefully keep itfrom going into adulthood for
people.
A lot of times, coercive controlbegins for people in
adolescence.
It's a pattern that beginsthere.
I've worked with so manyclients who say yes, my spouse
was already doing this when wewere dating as kids, as high
school sweethearts, and that'sterrible and terrifying and not
(02:30):
what we want to have happen, butit's important to know that it
does happen.
Like all abuse, all things arerelated to power and control, so
it's all about coercive control, it is all about power and
control and it is not anydifferent than an adult
relationship.
It's a little bit easier tospot, I think, sometimes for
teenagers, just because theyhaven't refined the manipulative
(02:52):
skills yet, which is goodbecause we can get ahead of it
and hopefully also call theabusive party to accountability
so that it does not continue intheir life.
It's not a good pattern foranybody, no matter who it is,
whether it's the perpetrator orthe victim.
If we can catch it early, thenwe can keep it out of the adult
(03:12):
relational sphere for sure.
Teen coercive control lookssimilar to what we see in adults
, but a little bit different aswell.
So we have things like theemotional manipulation telling
someone I need you to do thisbecause I'm sad and it will help
me feel better when it'ssomething the person doesn't
(03:34):
want to do, or saying if youloved me, you would.
I've heard that so many timesfrom teens, especially teen
girls, where they're told bytheir boyfriends or a guy that
they're interested in well, ifyou really loved me, then you'd
fill in the blank.
Whatever fill in the blank isfor that person, and it's
usually something that theperson doesn't want to do, like
a sexual activity or goingsomewhere, even doing something
(03:56):
that they're not into, whateverthat is.
You also see things likecoercion.
So that manipulation of I'mgoing to get you to do what I
want so I can get what I want.
Hey, I need you to like buy mestuff out of the vending machine
because I don't have any money.
You know how it is at home andlike, look, if you do it, then
that'd be awesome.
If not, then do you even careabout me?
(04:16):
So all of that like pushingthose things together to get
what they want.
You'll see intimidation I willgo beat up your other friends if
you don't do what I ask you todo.
Or I will tell your parentsthis or that about you if you
don't do what I want you to do.
Those are the things that wefrequently see.
You may also see things likedigital abuse.
(04:38):
I need your Instagram password,I need your Snapchat password,
I need your TikTok password, andgoing through and deleting
posts that the victim has made,deleting friends, blocking
people all kinds of things.
Using things like Life360 orlocation on the phone to keep
track of where their girlfriendor boyfriend is at and that is a
(04:59):
form of digital abuse.
You also will see things likesexual pressure.
I want you to do this, I wantyou to go this far, I want you
to allow this with me, I wantyou to watch pornography with me
and I know that it might be abit shocking to think of your
teenager watching pornography orhaving accounts that would do
that and I'm telling you, one ofthe things that I heard often
(05:21):
when my own son was in highschool was the amount of, we'll
just say, pornographic sitesthat people had access to and
how it was just super normal,especially for the boys, to talk
about those things, which youknow is.
I think if you're a parentlistening to this, you probably
feel like this is literally myworst nightmare.
(05:41):
I don't know what to do withthis and I want to just let you
know that there are ways to getahead of it and deal with it.
And I think, again, honestconversations with our boys and
girls about the dangers ofpornography, about how it
distorts what healthy sexualitylooks like, are really important
conversations to have, and verydirect ones at that, and I know
(06:02):
that that can be another toughtopic and we'll cover that in
another podcast, but talking toyour kids in very direct terms
is really, really important.
You might also see threats ofphysical harm or actual physical
harm.
So where they're being grabbed,the victim is being grabbed by
the perpetrator or they're beinghit.
Those things do happen.
(06:23):
I have heard teenagers tell meabout getting slammed into the
lockers and being made to looklike an accident and things like
that.
So it's not uncommon for it toalso become physical.
So now that you're probablythoroughly scared if you're a
parent, I'm going to share withyou what are some red flags to
look out for.
(06:43):
So one of the big ones I see alot is excessive jealousy or
possessiveness.
They are not allowed to haveother friends.
The victim is not allowed to gohang out with their friends or
go to the pool or do things thatare super normal teenager
activities like going to theamusement park with their
(07:04):
friends or something like that.
They're just not allowed to doit unless the significant other
is there.
They might not be allowed to doit with certain groups of
people.
They may be not allowed to beby themselves at youth group
unless the perpetrator is withthem, things like that, and they
do it under the guise of oh,I'm just trying to protect you,
I'm just trying to keep an eyeon you.
I know this other guy reallylikes you and so I want them to
(07:27):
know that you're mine and it'slike, hmm, that is a very high
level of control and possessionin a teenage relationship.
For sure they will isolate fromfriends and family, so friends
that they used to hang out withthey are no longer allowed to
hang out with.
If you ask your kiddo, hey,what happened with Sarah?
Then they might say, oh, sarah,and I just stopped talking.
(07:48):
And a good question to ask as aparent is why and we'll talk a
little bit more about that herein a few minutes but it is a big
deal to isolate, right?
Because you're going to getpeople away from anyone that
might ask a question or say, hey, what's going on here, why
aren't you hanging out with meanymore, and things like that.
(08:10):
Even with family, like I haveseen, kids all of a sudden start
to just really hang out intheir room and it's because
they're significant.
Others like well, you have tostay on FaceTime with me, you
can't go hang out with yourfamily, and so you see a decided
shift in how the teenager isfunctioning within the family
system itself.
We talked about passwords aminute ago, getting passwords to
Instagram or Snapchat or TikTokor any of the other social
(08:30):
media platforms and monitoringthe activity.
Oh, you like so-and-so's post,are you into them?
What's going on here, whenreally it's like not that at all
or like, hey, I logged in andsaw all your DMs and it sounds
like you're talking to otherpeople, even if there's nothing
there to be concerned about atall.
But the same thing isn'treciprocated at all.
So the perpetrator won't giveup their access.
(08:53):
They won't let the significantother monitor what they're doing
online, but they are definitelykeeping close tabs.
You might even find someelectronic tracking methods
happening, with apps added tophones or digital devices that
parents don't know are there.
You're also going to see guilttrips If you loved me, you would
and this is one of the biggestways to manipulate another
(09:16):
teenager.
We all want belonging, and whenwe are looking for a romantic
relationship, when we want oneday to be married and to have a
significant other and a partner,the if you loved me, you would
can be such a powerfulmanipulation.
It's heinous, it's ugly, it'sevil, but it is such a powerful
(09:36):
way to pull someone in who justwants to be loved.
It's okay that we have sex.
I know you wanted to wait untilmarriage, but we're going to
get married anyway.
So we can just start now, whenthat's really outside the value
system, maybe, of their partner,and they can get talked into
things just like an adult, justlike an adult can.
(09:57):
And then, hey, send me thispicture, send me some nude
photos, and, god forbid, thepartner does that, and then they
use that as leverage.
Well, if you don't do what I'masking you to do, then I'm going
to share these with our friends, I'm going to give them to your
parents.
I'm going to fill in the blankany way that you can use nudes,
I will say, if you're a teenagerlistening to this, I don't care
(10:17):
how much you love them, I don'tcare how nicely they ask, I
don't care how many times theyask Nude photos are a bad idea.
It never goes well.
I've never seen that go welland I've worked with lots of
teenagers.
Keep your clothes on.
Don't send those kinds ofpictures, even if it is really
asked for and really begged forand really persuasive, also
(10:39):
being afraid of disagreeing.
If you are a parent and you say,oh, what do you think about
this?
And you see the teenager lookover at their significant other
first and wait until they answerand go yeah, whatever they said
.
You ask why can't you disagree?
Do you have a different opinion?
No, no, no, I'm fine.
I'm fine.
You know that is a.
That's a hard thing and it'shard to for parents sometimes to
(11:02):
catch some of these thingsbecause as teenagers they're
learning to do what we calldifferentiate, learning who they
are as a person.
So they're very naturally andvery normally pushing away from
the parent to try to figure itout.
And their peers' voices, sotheir friends and boyfriends and
girlfriends' voices, have a lotmore weight than our parent
voices.
And that is so hard, so hard toreckon with.
(11:24):
But you still have to try.
You still have to try to leanin and understand what's going
on in your kiddo's life.
The best way to do that is totake a very gentle approach and
keep communication open withoutfreaking out as much as you can.
In general day-to-daycircumstances and as a parent I
know it can be really hard to dothat I can't say I've always
been perfect, because I haven'talways been perfect.
(11:46):
I'm just going to be honest.
I've definitely been the panicparent, for sure.
Some questions you might want toask your kiddo is are you free
to disagree with your boyfriendor girlfriend?
What happens if you say I don'tagree with you?
Are they cool with it?
Are they not cool with it?
Do they try to strong arm youinto believing the same thing?
Those are big questions.
Another question is do you feelpressure to do things you don't
(12:08):
want to do?
And this might be a hard one fora kid to talk to their parent
about if they've never had superopen communication before.
But if you have some suspicionssomething not so great is going
on, this might be a place whereyou tag in a trusted friend.
So if you have another trustedadult in your life, or maybe an
older sibling, that can go hey,can you just check in on this?
(12:30):
This relationship's not feelingso great.
I'm getting a vibe that I don'tsuper love.
Can you check with your sister?
Can you check with my kiddo onhow things are going, because
they might tell someone else.
And that goes for youth leadersas well.
So if you're a youth leader andyou're noticing some just not
great dynamics, check in.
Don't be afraid to lean intothat and to ask questions.
(12:51):
A lot of times kids are going totell you things that maybe they
wouldn't tell mom and dad.
Same for teachers.
Lean in hey, are things goingokay?
What happens if you disagree?
Are you being asked to doanything you don't want to do?
And be prepared for them to sayno, things are fine right out
of the gate.
But when they know that you'rea safe person to tell, then
there might circle back aroundwhen it's time to have the
(13:13):
conversation about hey, thingsaren't good, I didn't know how
to tell you before, but I don'tknow what to do, and that is
super normal.
Remember that kids aren't goingto tell us stuff out of the
gate very often unless you'vealready built that super trust.
And even then, if they careabout somebody, they're going to
try to protect them.
It is not dissimilar to how anadult functions in the same
(13:35):
situation.
I hope you're enjoying thisepisode of hey Tabby and we will
be right back to it in just aminute.
Tabby, and we will be rightback to it in just a minute.
You know here on hey Tabby wetalk a lot about the hard stuff
trauma, abuse and the toll thatit takes on your mind, body and
spirit and we want you to knowyou don't have to walk that
(13:58):
alone.
The Journey in the Process is atrauma specialized counseling
center committed to helpingindividuals heal from deep
wounds through clinicallyexcellent, biblically grounded
care, with offices in NorthCarolina and Texas, telehealth
services across five states andbiblical counseling available
globally.
(14:18):
Our team of highly trainedChristian therapists and
certified biblical counselorsintegrate faith and whole person
evidence-based practices toaddress trauma at its root.
We believe that healing ispossible because Jesus still
sets the captives free.
If you're ready to take thatnext step toward peace, visit
(14:44):
wwwthejourneyandtheprocesscom.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope and we are hereto help you find it.
Now let's get back to thisweek's episode.
A lot of times, christian teensreally misunderstand love
(15:05):
bombing as like commitment, andthe way that kids right now are
throwing around I'm in love withthem, they're my person is
pretty fast.
It's not a slow buildup thesedays and I think I don't know
that it ever really was when Iwas a teenager either, but it's
definitely something I'venoticed these days where kids
are like, yeah, I love thisperson, but they don't know
(15:26):
enough to really love them.
And this is an opportunity tolean in and talk about the
difference between control andcommitment.
Here's what being a faithfulperson looks like and here's
what being a controlling personlooks like.
Which do you think yourrelationship is?
And that's a really greatquestion to ask, especially if
you're a youth leader, and it'ssomething that you really
(15:48):
probably should teach on.
What does the Bible say abouthealthy relationship?
What does healthy relationshiplook like?
What does healthy mutualitylook like and mutual care for
each other, and what does itlook like to be in a
relationship and look like Jesus?
I think those things are reallyimportant and I do think it's
important in youth group to havevery direct teaching about
(16:10):
controlling relationships andcoercive control Because, again,
if it can happen and it ishappening, it's happening in
your church and it's probablysomebody who's super charming
and you'd be like, oh, theywould never, but they do and we
want to get ahead of it.
We want to ask those questions.
We want to talk about what itlooks like to have a healthy
(16:34):
relationship versus an unhealthyrelationship that can become
very dangerous.
We also don't want to pressure,forgive and forget.
I have seen this happen,particularly in youth groups or
even small homeschool groups sooften and thankfully I've been
asked at times to be invited inand talk about this and to
provide some support and help,and I'm grateful for that.
(16:55):
But we do not do sloppy agapeand I'm just going to say it
that way.
We are not going to forcereconciliation, even among kids.
We need to really find outwhat's going on.
If someone is unsafe, ifsomeone is coercively
controlling, if it's becomephysical, if they're forcing
(17:15):
sexual activity, you need toprotect the victim.
I do not care if it is thepastor's son or daughter doing
the harming, it doesn't matter.
I would hope we are all boldenough to do what is right and
to call somebody who isperpetrating harm on another
person to repentance and not toforce reconciliation from a
victim.
Just like I would never do thatin an adult setting, I would
(17:38):
never do that in a teenagesetting either.
We really want to help peopleunderstand what a God-honoring,
healthy relationship looks likeand what a destructive
relationship looks like, becausewe owe it to our kids to keep
them out of harm's way and toeducate them.
They don't know these things.
They are not going to intuitthem necessarily.
(18:00):
We are going to have to helpthem and support them and let
them know what it looks like,and I really do think the church
has a big role in that, and Ithink parents should allow that.
And if a youth leader comes toyou, mom or dad, and says, hey,
little Johnny or little Debbieis doing fill in the blank and
it's causing a lot of problemsand they're really harming their
(18:21):
significant other, as a parent,that might be hard to hear, but
, gosh, step into it, man, stepinto that and call that person
to repentance, like, hey, whatare you doing?
This is not how we treat people, and you can be part of the
solution of setting healthyboundaries so that your kiddo
doesn't harm someone else and itdoesn't necessarily reflect on
(18:42):
you poorly as a parent I thinkthis is something I hear all the
time is when our kids makechoices that we would never
condone and that we feel likeit's us and we have to remember
that they have choices to makeas well and as a parent, we can
lean into those choices.
But we can also set healthyboundaries and limits for them.
And it doesn't mean that we'redoing something that we
shouldn't be doing.
(19:02):
It means they made some choices.
And if you do look at it andsay, oh yeah, I have not modeled
a healthy relationship in myown home, then that is the time
to get your house in order andalso deal with your kiddo.
It's important that way andthat is something that parents
can do is model a healthyrelationship.
And if you're like, oh, that'shard, then that might be
(19:23):
something you need to go totherapy for and really take a
good look at your own life andwhat you're teaching through
your own actions to your kids.
You also want to create a safespace for teens to share without
judgment.
Like I already said, I have beena panic parent where I have
heard things and been fearfulfor my child and absolutely
(19:44):
reacted with far too big areaction to be helpful.
Truly, when we react with thatfar too big a reaction to be
helpful, truly when we reactwith that far too big a reaction
to be helpful, it really causeskids to shut down and to not
talk to you.
So if you're like, oh, I havedefinitely been a panic parent,
then now's a great time to shiftthat.
You can shift it at any pointin time, even if you're like my
(20:05):
kid's an adult and I stillsometimes do that.
You can shift that, makerepairs with your kids and try
something different, and ittakes work right.
Nothing is easy.
At times when we're making achange, We've got to build those
new neural pathways and whatnot, but it is well worth doing.
No matter how old your kid is,you want to ask open-ended and
(20:27):
compassionate questions.
This is not the SpanishInquisition.
That's not going to be helpful.
But tell me more about what itfeels like when Billy does this.
Tell me a little bit more abouthow many times Sally is texting
you and get some moreinformation.
Sally is texting you and getsome more information.
(20:52):
Do not minimize things as puppylove or this is how we show
people.
We like them.
One of the things that justfrustrates me endlessly is when
I hear from people oh well, Iknow that they slapped you on
the butt or pulled your hair.
It just means they have a crushon you.
We do not show that by violence, right?
And what are we telling ourkids?
It's okay for someone to puttheir hands on you in a way that
(21:13):
you never asked for?
No, so I don't ignore thosethings, I don't over freak out
about them, but I certainly say,well, it's not okay for them to
touch you.
I don't say, well, they pulledyour hair, so they like you.
Call it what it is.
It's not okay to touch somebodywithout their permission.
It's not.
And also encourage bodyawareness and self-trust.
(21:34):
So what do they notice in theirbody?
What do they know to be truefrom their gut and we don't live
and die by gut feelings butthey are very helpful.
I don't feel good when I'm inthe room with Tommy at all.
He freaks me out, man.
I catch him staring at me allthe time and it just makes me
(21:55):
have the heebie jeebies or itfeels sus or whatever.
A kid is going to say to youman, go, yeah, you should pay
attention to that.
Let's keep an eye on that.
See what's going on.
That is really important andreally helpful.
And you are going to empoweryour kid then to really learn to
trust the Holy Spirit living inthem.
He might be saying run, this isa bad idea.
(22:16):
If you're a teenager listeningto this, I want to say a few
things directly to you.
First of all, you are notresponsible for somebody else's
emotions and behaviors.
Period, full stop.
They are.
You don't have to make themfeel better Now.
Are we going to be unkind?
No, but we don't have to beneedlessly nice either.
As one of my supervisees oncesaid and I made a meme out of
(22:37):
and stuck it on my Instagramnice girls end up in trunks, and
especially for women.
We are very much socialized tojust say the nicest thing
possible and try not to hurtsomebody's feelings.
And I'm not saying go out ofyour way to hurt people's
feelings.
That's a bad idea also.
But you don't have to put upwith terrible behavior and
(22:58):
you're not responsible to makesomebody else feel better.
You can be kind, you can bewith somebody when they're
struggling.
But if they say, if I'm notwith you, I'm sad, I might ask
some questions about that.
I really might.
I have to be with you or I'mjust too depressed to function.
That is putting aresponsibility on you that is
not yours to hold.
(23:19):
True love never manipulates, itnever coerces and it never
isolates.
Read 1 Corinthians 13.
That is a healthy picture oflove and you do not have to get
your worth and value fromsomebody else.
You are lovable just the waythat you are and you don't need
(23:40):
a boyfriend or girlfriend to beyour everything.
In fact, one of the things Itell people all the time is that
the you complete me line inthat old movie Jerry Maguire is
such junk.
You don't need someone else tocomplete you, you're already
complete.
So what do you do if, as aparent you see, oh no.
(24:00):
Or a youth leader you see, ohno.
Well, you want to do somesafety planning.
What do you do to keep themsafe?
Can you keep them away fromthis individual?
Can you get the other person'sparents involved?
And we do want to be carefulbecause, well, not all
relationships turn violent.
Some do, and I have heard ofstories where people have tried
to break up and the ex-partnerhas come with a knife or tried
(24:22):
to hit them in the parking lot,at school or something like that
, with their vehicle.
So we really want to be awareof safety planning.
If you're a teenager and you'relistening to this, I will
encourage you to reach out tothe National Teen Dating Abuse
Helpline.
You can go to loveisrespectorgor you can go to
domesticsheltersorg and getinformation as well.
(24:43):
So go and get information.
And if you're like I, need alittle something more parents, I
would encourage you to take thefamily to therapy.
Let's work through some of it,because if there's a dynamic
that's perpetuating it or areally unhealthy, unsafe
relationship, that might besomething a therapist can help
you out with, the unsaferelationship, and that might be
(25:03):
something a therapist can helpyou out with.
I just want to remind everybody, as we end here today, that
healing is possible even afterharmful relationships.
Even if you're a teenager andyou're like I don't know about
all this, you can still heal.
You can learn how to setdifferent boundaries and you can
learn how to see those redflags.
As we often say in our practice.
Those red flags don't mean it'sa carnival, you don't have to
(25:25):
just go with it.
One of the things I want toshare.
I asked a couple friends whohave had some challenges in
their relationships what wouldyou want to tell your younger
self?
And here is some of the thingsthey said Just because someone
else wants to be with youdoesn't mean you have to be with
them.
(25:45):
You don't have to say yes justbecause someone else wants it.
And don't overlook the redflags because of the attention.
Like I said earlier, we allwant to have a sense of
belonging.
We all want to be wanted.
We all want to have a sense ofbelonging.
We all want to be wanted.
We all want to have people whowant to be with us.
But that attention shouldn'thelp you overlook red flags Just
(26:10):
because someone is giving youattention and they're giving you
that sense of belonging.
If there are red flags run, youdon't have to stay in it and
you certainly never have tomarry the person.
I hope this was a helpful topic.
I hope that you learned alittle bit about coercive
(26:30):
control in teenage relationships.
I hope that if you are seeingsome of these in your kiddo,
that you'll stop and ask somequestions, invite that
conversation.
Don't be a panic parent, try tokeep it together and if you
can't, as a parent, if you'relike, oh gosh, I don't know how
to not be a panic parent, reachout to us.
We would help you with someparent coaching to help you not
be a panic parent.
(26:51):
As I say often in advocacyclass, as parents we need to
stay a chill 72 degrees, becausethat's going to help our kiddos
also.
Be a chill 72 degrees and looklike I said, I know when we get
emotionally activated and we areworried for our children that
we have a hard time staying atthat 72 degrees.
So if you need some skills, ifyou need support, reach out
(27:14):
today.
We are happy to help.
Thank you for being here with meon this week's episode of hey
Tabby.
All of the links and resourcesI mentioned will be in the
description below.
I'm so glad that you were here,have healthy relationships and
I will see you again next time.
You're looking for a resourcethat I mentioned in the show and
(27:38):
you want to check out the shownotes?
Head on over totabithawestbrookcom, forward
slash.
Hey, tabby, that'sH-E-Y-T-A-B-I and you can grab
it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
When we think about abuse, most of us picture
adult relationships, but thetruth is, many abusive patterns
actually start a lot earlier.
Just like adults, one in threeteens are going to experience
some form of dating abuse andcoercive control before they
even graduate high school.
And often it doesn't look likebruises.
(00:21):
It looks like constant texting,pressure to prove your love,
being isolated from friends orfeeling like you can't ever say
no.
Today on hey Tabby, we aretalking about teen dating
violence, or I'd rather call itteen coercive control, what it
looks like, how to spot it and,most importantly, how to protect
(00:42):
and empower the next generation.
Welcome to hey Tabby, thepodcast where we talk about the
hard things out loud, with ouractual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist.
(01:05):
But I'm not your traumatherapist.
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof hey Tabby.
I am so glad that you are hereToday.
(01:27):
As I mentioned, we are going tobe talking about coercive
control relationships inteenagers, and I really wish
that it did not happen.
I wish that this was not like athing.
Unfortunately, it is actually athing and I've worked with so
many teens that experience this,and a lot of times I will get
(01:47):
also adults who start telling meabout their high school
relationships and this is partof their story and they've never
told anybody.
So I want to talk today aboutwhy we need to understand this,
why it's important, and also howto really start understanding,
how to get ahead of it,basically how we can stop this
(02:09):
problem and hopefully keep itfrom going into adulthood for
people.
A lot of times, coercive controlbegins for people in
adolescence.
It's a pattern that beginsthere.
I've worked with so manyclients who say yes, my spouse
was already doing this when wewere dating as kids, as high
school sweethearts, and that'sterrible and terrifying and not
(02:30):
what we want to have happen, butit's important to know that it
does happen.
Like all abuse, all things arerelated to power and control, so
it's all about coercive control, it is all about power and
control and it is not anydifferent than an adult
relationship.
It's a little bit easier tospot, I think, sometimes for
teenagers, just because theyhaven't refined the manipulative
(02:52):
skills yet, which is goodbecause we can get ahead of it
and hopefully also call theabusive party to accountability
so that it does not continue intheir life.
It's not a good pattern foranybody, no matter who it is,
whether it's the perpetrator orthe victim.
If we can catch it early, thenwe can keep it out of the adult
(03:12):
relational sphere for sure.
Teen coercive control lookssimilar to what we see in adults
, but a little bit different aswell.
So we have things like theemotional manipulation telling
someone I need you to do thisbecause I'm sad and it will help
me feel better when it'ssomething the person doesn't
(03:34):
want to do, or saying if youloved me, you would.
I've heard that so many timesfrom teens, especially teen
girls, where they're told bytheir boyfriends or a guy that
they're interested in well, ifyou really loved me, then you'd
fill in the blank.
Whatever fill in the blank isfor that person, and it's
usually something that theperson doesn't want to do, like
a sexual activity or goingsomewhere, even doing something
(03:56):
that they're not into, whateverthat is.
You also see things likecoercion.
So that manipulation of I'mgoing to get you to do what I
want so I can get what I want.
Hey, I need you to like buy mestuff out of the vending machine
because I don't have any money.
You know how it is at home andlike, look, if you do it, then
that'd be awesome.
If not, then do you even careabout me?
(04:16):
So all of that like pushingthose things together to get
what they want.
You'll see intimidation I willgo beat up your other friends if
you don't do what I ask you todo.
Or I will tell your parentsthis or that about you if you
don't do what I want you to do.
Those are the things that wefrequently see.
You may also see things likedigital abuse.
(04:38):
I need your Instagram password,I need your Snapchat password,
I need your TikTok password, andgoing through and deleting
posts that the victim has made,deleting friends, blocking
people all kinds of things.
Using things like Life360 orlocation on the phone to keep
track of where their girlfriendor boyfriend is at and that is a
(04:59):
form of digital abuse.
You also will see things likesexual pressure.
I want you to do this, I wantyou to go this far, I want you
to allow this with me, I wantyou to watch pornography with me
and I know that it might be abit shocking to think of your
teenager watching pornography orhaving accounts that would do
that and I'm telling you, one ofthe things that I heard often
(05:21):
when my own son was in highschool was the amount of, we'll
just say, pornographic sitesthat people had access to and
how it was just super normal,especially for the boys, to talk
about those things, which youknow is.
I think if you're a parentlistening to this, you probably
feel like this is literally myworst nightmare.
(05:41):
I don't know what to do withthis and I want to just let you
know that there are ways to getahead of it and deal with it.
And I think, again, honestconversations with our boys and
girls about the dangers ofpornography, about how it
distorts what healthy sexualitylooks like, are really important
conversations to have, and verydirect ones at that, and I know
(06:02):
that that can be another toughtopic and we'll cover that in
another podcast, but talking toyour kids in very direct terms
is really, really important.
You might also see threats ofphysical harm or actual physical
harm.
So where they're being grabbed,the victim is being grabbed by
the perpetrator or they're beinghit.
Those things do happen.
(06:23):
I have heard teenagers tell meabout getting slammed into the
lockers and being made to looklike an accident and things like
that.
So it's not uncommon for it toalso become physical.
So now that you're probablythoroughly scared if you're a
parent, I'm going to share withyou what are some red flags to
look out for.
(06:43):
So one of the big ones I see alot is excessive jealousy or
possessiveness.
They are not allowed to haveother friends.
The victim is not allowed to gohang out with their friends or
go to the pool or do things thatare super normal teenager
activities like going to theamusement park with their
(07:04):
friends or something like that.
They're just not allowed to doit unless the significant other
is there.
They might not be allowed to doit with certain groups of
people.
They may be not allowed to beby themselves at youth group
unless the perpetrator is withthem, things like that, and they
do it under the guise of oh,I'm just trying to protect you,
I'm just trying to keep an eyeon you.
I know this other guy reallylikes you and so I want them to
(07:27):
know that you're mine and it'slike, hmm, that is a very high
level of control and possessionin a teenage relationship.
For sure they will isolate fromfriends and family, so friends
that they used to hang out withthey are no longer allowed to
hang out with.
If you ask your kiddo, hey,what happened with Sarah?
Then they might say, oh, sarah,and I just stopped talking.
(07:48):
And a good question to ask as aparent is why and we'll talk a
little bit more about that herein a few minutes but it is a big
deal to isolate, right?
Because you're going to getpeople away from anyone that
might ask a question or say, hey, what's going on here, why
aren't you hanging out with meanymore, and things like that.
(08:10):
Even with family, like I haveseen, kids all of a sudden start
to just really hang out intheir room and it's because
they're significant.
Others like well, you have tostay on FaceTime with me, you
can't go hang out with yourfamily, and so you see a decided
shift in how the teenager isfunctioning within the family
system itself.
We talked about passwords aminute ago, getting passwords to
Instagram or Snapchat or TikTokor any of the other social
(08:30):
media platforms and monitoringthe activity.
Oh, you like so-and-so's post,are you into them?
What's going on here, whenreally it's like not that at all
or like, hey, I logged in andsaw all your DMs and it sounds
like you're talking to otherpeople, even if there's nothing
there to be concerned about atall.
But the same thing isn'treciprocated at all.
So the perpetrator won't giveup their access.
(08:53):
They won't let the significantother monitor what they're doing
online, but they are definitelykeeping close tabs.
You might even find someelectronic tracking methods
happening, with apps added tophones or digital devices that
parents don't know are there.
You're also going to see guilttrips If you loved me, you would
and this is one of the biggestways to manipulate another
(09:16):
teenager.
We all want belonging, and whenwe are looking for a romantic
relationship, when we want oneday to be married and to have a
significant other and a partner,the if you loved me, you would
can be such a powerfulmanipulation.
It's heinous, it's ugly, it'sevil, but it is such a powerful
(09:36):
way to pull someone in who justwants to be loved.
It's okay that we have sex.
I know you wanted to wait untilmarriage, but we're going to
get married anyway.
So we can just start now, whenthat's really outside the value
system, maybe, of their partner,and they can get talked into
things just like an adult, justlike an adult can.
(09:57):
And then, hey, send me thispicture, send me some nude
photos, and, god forbid, thepartner does that, and then they
use that as leverage.
Well, if you don't do what I'masking you to do, then I'm going
to share these with our friends, I'm going to give them to your
parents.
I'm going to fill in the blankany way that you can use nudes,
I will say, if you're a teenagerlistening to this, I don't care
(10:17):
how much you love them, I don'tcare how nicely they ask, I
don't care how many times theyask Nude photos are a bad idea.
It never goes well.
I've never seen that go welland I've worked with lots of
teenagers.
Keep your clothes on.
Don't send those kinds ofpictures, even if it is really
asked for and really begged forand really persuasive, also
(10:39):
being afraid of disagreeing.
If you are a parent and you say,oh, what do you think about
this?
And you see the teenager lookover at their significant other
first and wait until they answerand go yeah, whatever they said
.
You ask why can't you disagree?
Do you have a different opinion?
No, no, no, I'm fine.
I'm fine.
You know that is a.
That's a hard thing and it'shard to for parents sometimes to
(11:02):
catch some of these thingsbecause as teenagers they're
learning to do what we calldifferentiate, learning who they
are as a person.
So they're very naturally andvery normally pushing away from
the parent to try to figure itout.
And their peers' voices, sotheir friends and boyfriends and
girlfriends' voices, have a lotmore weight than our parent
voices.
And that is so hard, so hard toreckon with.
(11:24):
But you still have to try.
You still have to try to leanin and understand what's going
on in your kiddo's life.
The best way to do that is totake a very gentle approach and
keep communication open withoutfreaking out as much as you can.
In general day-to-daycircumstances and as a parent I
know it can be really hard to dothat I can't say I've always
been perfect, because I haven'talways been perfect.
(11:46):
I'm just going to be honest.
I've definitely been the panicparent, for sure.
Some questions you might want toask your kiddo is are you free
to disagree with your boyfriendor girlfriend?
What happens if you say I don'tagree with you?
Are they cool with it?
Are they not cool with it?
Do they try to strong arm youinto believing the same thing?
Those are big questions.
Another question is do you feelpressure to do things you don't
(12:08):
want to do?
And this might be a hard one fora kid to talk to their parent
about if they've never had superopen communication before.
But if you have some suspicionssomething not so great is going
on, this might be a place whereyou tag in a trusted friend.
So if you have another trustedadult in your life, or maybe an
older sibling, that can go hey,can you just check in on this?
(12:30):
This relationship's not feelingso great.
I'm getting a vibe that I don'tsuper love.
Can you check with your sister?
Can you check with my kiddo onhow things are going, because
they might tell someone else.
And that goes for youth leadersas well.
So if you're a youth leader andyou're noticing some just not
great dynamics, check in.
Don't be afraid to lean intothat and to ask questions.
(12:51):
A lot of times kids are going totell you things that maybe they
wouldn't tell mom and dad.
Same for teachers.
Lean in hey, are things goingokay?
What happens if you disagree?
Are you being asked to doanything you don't want to do?
And be prepared for them to sayno, things are fine right out
of the gate.
But when they know that you'rea safe person to tell, then
there might circle back aroundwhen it's time to have the
(13:13):
conversation about hey, thingsaren't good, I didn't know how
to tell you before, but I don'tknow what to do, and that is
super normal.
Remember that kids aren't goingto tell us stuff out of the
gate very often unless you'vealready built that super trust.
And even then, if they careabout somebody, they're going to
try to protect them.
It is not dissimilar to how anadult functions in the same
(13:35):
situation.
I hope you're enjoying thisepisode of hey Tabby and we will
be right back to it in just aminute.
Tabby, and we will be rightback to it in just a minute.
You know here on hey Tabby wetalk a lot about the hard stuff
trauma, abuse and the toll thatit takes on your mind, body and
spirit and we want you to knowyou don't have to walk that
(13:58):
alone.
The Journey in the Process is atrauma specialized counseling
center committed to helpingindividuals heal from deep
wounds through clinicallyexcellent, biblically grounded
care, with offices in NorthCarolina and Texas, telehealth
services across five states andbiblical counseling available
globally.
(14:18):
Our team of highly trainedChristian therapists and
certified biblical counselorsintegrate faith and whole person
evidence-based practices toaddress trauma at its root.
We believe that healing ispossible because Jesus still
sets the captives free.
If you're ready to take thatnext step toward peace, visit
(14:44):
wwwthejourneyandtheprocesscom.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope and we are hereto help you find it.
Now let's get back to thisweek's episode.
A lot of times, christian teensreally misunderstand love
(15:05):
bombing as like commitment, andthe way that kids right now are
throwing around I'm in love withthem, they're my person is
pretty fast.
It's not a slow buildup thesedays and I think I don't know
that it ever really was when Iwas a teenager either, but it's
definitely something I'venoticed these days where kids
are like, yeah, I love thisperson, but they don't know
(15:26):
enough to really love them.
And this is an opportunity tolean in and talk about the
difference between control andcommitment.
Here's what being a faithfulperson looks like and here's
what being a controlling personlooks like.
Which do you think yourrelationship is?
And that's a really greatquestion to ask, especially if
you're a youth leader, and it'ssomething that you really
(15:48):
probably should teach on.
What does the Bible say abouthealthy relationship?
What does healthy relationshiplook like?
What does healthy mutualitylook like and mutual care for
each other, and what does itlook like to be in a
relationship and look like Jesus?
I think those things are reallyimportant and I do think it's
important in youth group to havevery direct teaching about
(16:10):
controlling relationships andcoercive control Because, again,
if it can happen and it ishappening, it's happening in
your church and it's probablysomebody who's super charming
and you'd be like, oh, theywould never, but they do and we
want to get ahead of it.
We want to ask those questions.
We want to talk about what itlooks like to have a healthy
(16:34):
relationship versus an unhealthyrelationship that can become
very dangerous.
We also don't want to pressure,forgive and forget.
I have seen this happen,particularly in youth groups or
even small homeschool groups sooften and thankfully I've been
asked at times to be invited inand talk about this and to
provide some support and help,and I'm grateful for that.
(16:55):
But we do not do sloppy agapeand I'm just going to say it
that way.
We are not going to forcereconciliation, even among kids.
We need to really find outwhat's going on.
If someone is unsafe, ifsomeone is coercively
controlling, if it's becomephysical, if they're forcing
(17:15):
sexual activity, you need toprotect the victim.
I do not care if it is thepastor's son or daughter doing
the harming, it doesn't matter.
I would hope we are all boldenough to do what is right and
to call somebody who isperpetrating harm on another
person to repentance and not toforce reconciliation from a
victim.
Just like I would never do thatin an adult setting, I would
(17:38):
never do that in a teenagesetting either.
We really want to help peopleunderstand what a God-honoring,
healthy relationship looks likeand what a destructive
relationship looks like, becausewe owe it to our kids to keep
them out of harm's way and toeducate them.
They don't know these things.
They are not going to intuitthem necessarily.
(18:00):
We are going to have to helpthem and support them and let
them know what it looks like,and I really do think the church
has a big role in that, and Ithink parents should allow that.
And if a youth leader comes toyou, mom or dad, and says, hey,
little Johnny or little Debbieis doing fill in the blank and
it's causing a lot of problemsand they're really harming their
(18:21):
significant other, as a parent,that might be hard to hear, but
, gosh, step into it, man, stepinto that and call that person
to repentance, like, hey, whatare you doing?
This is not how we treat people, and you can be part of the
solution of setting healthyboundaries so that your kiddo
doesn't harm someone else and itdoesn't necessarily reflect on
(18:42):
you poorly as a parent I thinkthis is something I hear all the
time is when our kids makechoices that we would never
condone and that we feel likeit's us and we have to remember
that they have choices to makeas well and as a parent, we can
lean into those choices.
But we can also set healthyboundaries and limits for them.
And it doesn't mean that we'redoing something that we
shouldn't be doing.
(19:02):
It means they made some choices.
And if you do look at it andsay, oh yeah, I have not modeled
a healthy relationship in myown home, then that is the time
to get your house in order andalso deal with your kiddo.
It's important that way andthat is something that parents
can do is model a healthyrelationship.
And if you're like, oh, that'shard, then that might be
(19:23):
something you need to go totherapy for and really take a
good look at your own life andwhat you're teaching through
your own actions to your kids.
You also want to create a safespace for teens to share without
judgment.
Like I already said, I have beena panic parent where I have
heard things and been fearfulfor my child and absolutely
(19:44):
reacted with far too big areaction to be helpful.
Truly, when we react with thatfar too big a reaction to be
helpful, truly when we reactwith that far too big a reaction
to be helpful, it really causeskids to shut down and to not
talk to you.
So if you're like, oh, I havedefinitely been a panic parent,
then now's a great time to shiftthat.
You can shift it at any pointin time, even if you're like my
(20:05):
kid's an adult and I stillsometimes do that.
You can shift that, makerepairs with your kids and try
something different, and ittakes work right.
Nothing is easy.
At times when we're making achange, We've got to build those
new neural pathways and whatnot, but it is well worth doing.
No matter how old your kid is,you want to ask open-ended and
(20:27):
compassionate questions.
This is not the SpanishInquisition.
That's not going to be helpful.
But tell me more about what itfeels like when Billy does this.
Tell me a little bit more abouthow many times Sally is texting
you and get some moreinformation.
Sally is texting you and getsome more information.
(20:52):
Do not minimize things as puppylove or this is how we show
people.
We like them.
One of the things that justfrustrates me endlessly is when
I hear from people oh well, Iknow that they slapped you on
the butt or pulled your hair.
It just means they have a crushon you.
We do not show that by violence, right?
And what are we telling ourkids?
It's okay for someone to puttheir hands on you in a way that
(21:13):
you never asked for?
No, so I don't ignore thosethings, I don't over freak out
about them, but I certainly say,well, it's not okay for them to
touch you.
I don't say, well, they pulledyour hair, so they like you.
Call it what it is.
It's not okay to touch somebodywithout their permission.
It's not.
And also encourage bodyawareness and self-trust.
(21:34):
So what do they notice in theirbody?
What do they know to be truefrom their gut and we don't live
and die by gut feelings butthey are very helpful.
I don't feel good when I'm inthe room with Tommy at all.
He freaks me out, man.
I catch him staring at me allthe time and it just makes me
(21:55):
have the heebie jeebies or itfeels sus or whatever.
A kid is going to say to youman, go, yeah, you should pay
attention to that.
Let's keep an eye on that.
See what's going on.
That is really important andreally helpful.
And you are going to empoweryour kid then to really learn to
trust the Holy Spirit living inthem.
He might be saying run, this isa bad idea.
(22:16):
If you're a teenager listeningto this, I want to say a few
things directly to you.
First of all, you are notresponsible for somebody else's
emotions and behaviors.
Period, full stop.
They are.
You don't have to make themfeel better Now.
Are we going to be unkind?
No, but we don't have to beneedlessly nice either.
As one of my supervisees oncesaid and I made a meme out of
(22:37):
and stuck it on my Instagramnice girls end up in trunks, and
especially for women.
We are very much socialized tojust say the nicest thing
possible and try not to hurtsomebody's feelings.
And I'm not saying go out ofyour way to hurt people's
feelings.
That's a bad idea also.
But you don't have to put upwith terrible behavior and
(22:58):
you're not responsible to makesomebody else feel better.
You can be kind, you can bewith somebody when they're
struggling.
But if they say, if I'm notwith you, I'm sad, I might ask
some questions about that.
I really might.
I have to be with you or I'mjust too depressed to function.
That is putting aresponsibility on you that is
not yours to hold.
(23:19):
True love never manipulates, itnever coerces and it never
isolates.
Read 1 Corinthians 13.
That is a healthy picture oflove and you do not have to get
your worth and value fromsomebody else.
You are lovable just the waythat you are and you don't need
(23:40):
a boyfriend or girlfriend to beyour everything.
In fact, one of the things Itell people all the time is that
the you complete me line inthat old movie Jerry Maguire is
such junk.
You don't need someone else tocomplete you, you're already
complete.
So what do you do if, as aparent you see, oh no.
(24:00):
Or a youth leader you see, ohno.
Well, you want to do somesafety planning.
What do you do to keep themsafe?
Can you keep them away fromthis individual?
Can you get the other person'sparents involved?
And we do want to be carefulbecause, well, not all
relationships turn violent.
Some do, and I have heard ofstories where people have tried
to break up and the ex-partnerhas come with a knife or tried
(24:22):
to hit them in the parking lot,at school or something like that
, with their vehicle.
So we really want to be awareof safety planning.
If you're a teenager and you'relistening to this, I will
encourage you to reach out tothe National Teen Dating Abuse
Helpline.
You can go to loveisrespectorgor you can go to
domesticsheltersorg and getinformation as well.
(24:43):
So go and get information.
And if you're like I, need alittle something more parents, I
would encourage you to take thefamily to therapy.
Let's work through some of it,because if there's a dynamic
that's perpetuating it or areally unhealthy, unsafe
relationship, that might besomething a therapist can help
you out with, the unsaferelationship, and that might be
(25:03):
something a therapist can helpyou out with.
I just want to remind everybody, as we end here today, that
healing is possible even afterharmful relationships.
Even if you're a teenager andyou're like I don't know about
all this, you can still heal.
You can learn how to setdifferent boundaries and you can
learn how to see those redflags.
As we often say in our practice.
Those red flags don't mean it'sa carnival, you don't have to
(25:25):
just go with it.
One of the things I want toshare.
I asked a couple friends whohave had some challenges in
their relationships what wouldyou want to tell your younger
self?
And here is some of the thingsthey said Just because someone
else wants to be with youdoesn't mean you have to be with
them.
(25:45):
You don't have to say yes justbecause someone else wants it.
And don't overlook the redflags because of the attention.
Like I said earlier, we allwant to have a sense of
belonging.
We all want to be wanted.
We all want to have a sense ofbelonging.
We all want to be wanted.
We all want to have people whowant to be with us.
But that attention shouldn'thelp you overlook red flags Just
(26:10):
because someone is giving youattention and they're giving you
that sense of belonging.
If there are red flags run, youdon't have to stay in it and
you certainly never have tomarry the person.
I hope this was a helpful topic.
I hope that you learned alittle bit about coercive
(26:30):
control in teenage relationships.
I hope that if you are seeingsome of these in your kiddo,
that you'll stop and ask somequestions, invite that
conversation.
Don't be a panic parent, try tokeep it together and if you
can't, as a parent, if you'relike, oh gosh, I don't know how
to not be a panic parent, reachout to us.
We would help you with someparent coaching to help you not
be a panic parent.
(26:51):
As I say often in advocacyclass, as parents we need to
stay a chill 72 degrees, becausethat's going to help our kiddos
also.
Be a chill 72 degrees and looklike I said, I know when we get
emotionally activated and we areworried for our children that
we have a hard time staying atthat 72 degrees.
So if you need some skills, ifyou need support, reach out
(27:14):
today.
We are happy to help.
Thank you for being here with meon this week's episode of hey
Tabby.
All of the links and resourcesI mentioned will be in the
description below.
I'm so glad that you were here,have healthy relationships and
I will see you again next time.
You're looking for a resourcethat I mentioned in the show and
(27:38):
you want to check out the shownotes?
Head on over totabithawestbrookcom, forward
slash.
Hey, tabby, that'sH-E-Y-T-A-B-I and you can grab
it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
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