September 29, 2025 • 20 mins
Most therapists believe couples therapy helps struggling marriages—but here’s the shocking truth: up to half of couples seeking counseling are experiencing domestic abuse or coercive control. If therapists miss it, they can actually arm the abuser with new tools to manipulate and harm their partner.
In this episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook explains:
- Why traditional couples counseling is unsafe in abusive relationships
- How coercive control hides in plain sight
- Red flags therapists and pastors MUST learn to recognize
- Why safety - not reconciliation - MUST come first
Abuse is not a “marriage problem.” It creates marriage problems. Learn how to spot the difference between difficult, disappointing, and destructive relationships—and why missing it can literally be lethal.
Get on the interest list for the Certified Coercive Control Recovery Therapist (CCCRT) or Certified Coercive Control Recovery Specialist (CCCRS)! Cohorts begin in January! Click here - https://link.therasaas.com/widget/form/moooGNGLHIEAo2yNZnsd!
This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?
You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com
💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
📲 The Journey & The Process Instagram - www.instagram.com/_tjatp
Subscribe to my YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there
👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!
🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
Need to know how to find a great therapist? Read this...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Here's a hard truth that most people, especially
(00:02):
couples therapists, sadly do notknow.
Between one third to one half ofthe couples who come to your
therapy sessions are going to beexperiencing domestic abuse and
coercive control.
I know that sounds super crazy.
But if a therapist misses it, wecan actually arm the abuser with
additional tools to control, tomanipulate, and to harm their
(00:24):
partner.
We're going to talk about whycouples therapy is not at all
safe when abuse or coercivecontrol is present and what
every therapist needs to know tobe able to spot the difference
between a difficult ordisappointing marriage and one
that is destructive.
Welcome to Hey Tabby, thepodcast where we talk about the
hard things out loud with ouractual lips.
(00:46):
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here, andwe are not take two verses and
call me in the morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
(01:07):
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now, let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof Hey Tabby.
This one is for the therapists,but also for the clients that
might see them.
I wanted to talk about whattherapists need to understand
about domestic abuse andcoercive control and seeing
(01:31):
couples.
Unfortunately, I see far toomany therapists that do not
understand the dynamics.
They don't know what they areseeing when they look at it.
And that can really put both theperpetrator of the abuse and the
victim of the abuse in a badspace.
Puts the perpetrator in a badspace because you're not asking
them to change.
You ultimately end up becomingone of their minions and
(01:54):
furthering their agenda.
You put the victim in dangerbecause you keep them trapped
and you don't give them a wayout.
And so it's really important toknow what it is that you are
seeing.
It's also a huge societalproblem.
This is something that I don'tthink we think about very often
in terms of it being a publichealth crisis.
(02:14):
More than 54% of mass shootingsactually started as domestic
violence.
And so we see the aftermath ofthis in the greater society all
the time.
So it deeply matters.
That ongoing abuse piece for thevictim creates all kinds of
medical health issues, all kindsof autoimmune disorders, cardiac
(02:35):
issues, all sorts of things.
Not only that, but it causesthose same things in the
children that are in those homesas well.
If you look at the adversechildhood experiences study, it
tells you all kinds of thingsabout what it does to your body,
your physical body to grow up ina toxic environment.
One of the things that I sayoften is that all abuse is
(02:58):
physical abuse, because unlessyou can take your brain out of
your body and stick it in a jar,it is essentially a body part.
And the neurochemicals that arereleased in times of great
stress, which an abusiveenvironment is, end up deeply
harming our physiology.
We know that it is not good tolive under constant states of
high stress and trauma.
(03:18):
And I think knowing that as atherapist is something that we
really need to press into andsay, well, what am I doing to
help the situation and to helpmy clients truly?
So if you haven't been aroundhere long, let me redefine for
you what domestic abuse andcoercive control is.
It is a pattern of power andcontrol that is exercised by one
(03:41):
individual over another.
So it is someone taking theirpower and taking away the
autonomy, agency, and personageof another person.
And it's not just an isolatedincident.
So we can all be mean sometimes,right?
Like we're all gonna not haveour best day on occasion and say
something mean, and then we feelbad and we say we're sorry, we
(04:03):
repent for it, and then we movealong, right?
And we don't do it again.
It's not a pattern, it's aone-off.
And what we are seeing incoercively controlling
relationships is it's not aone-off.
That is the way the relationshipworks, and it is so important
for therapists to understandthat because one of the things
(04:27):
that often I see is an abusersaying, Well, yeah, I was mean
once, or yes, I did this thing,or I used to be, when they're
still very much that way.
And I think that's a reallyimportant thing to note.
It doesn't always look likedenying, it doesn't always look
like blaming the partner,although it often looks like
(04:48):
both of those things and thosethings may be present.
But it also can look like afalse repentance and crocodile
tears, where it seems sincere.
Yes, I did those things.
I was a horrible person, butwithout holding the weight of
what those things did to theirpartner.
Recently, I was part of a casewhere the victim was no longer
(05:11):
with the abuser, but the abuserhad gotten the ear of a pastor
and had said, Oh, I'm repentant,and maybe they are, but there
wasn't the weight held of thethings that were done to the
victim.
And it ended up being veryharmful.
And that's something that I wantall couples and anybody that
works with couples to understandis this is a big deal.
(05:35):
People helpers need to know thisinformation.
So if you are a pastor or acounselor listening today, I
really want you to dial intothis.
You often have a very tough job,right?
We do want to believe the bestabout people.
Of course we do.
Of course we do.
And I encourage that, but withwisdom, right?
(05:57):
The definition of wisdom is toknow what to do with the
information that you have.
It's not enough to know stuff.
You have to know what to do withthe stuff you know.
The adage is knowledge isknowing that tomato is a fruit,
and wisdom is knowing you don'tput it in a fruit salad.
And I think that's a reallyimportant thing.
Where are we looking for wisdomhere so that we don't walk where
we shouldn't walk in terms oftrying to help a couple?
(06:21):
Abusers are often, as Dr.
Deborah Wingfield puts it,cunning, conning, convincing,
and charming.
So they are going to presenttheir best selves to you in the
counseling space.
And very often the victim comesin as looking dysregulated,
crazy.
She might be the one yelling, orhe might be the one yelling and
looking much more off.
(06:41):
And you might go, oh gosh, wow,that person's kind of messy.
Whereas the abuser might becool, calming, collected, or
really giving you thosecrocodile tears.
A lot of times, victims don'tsay, Hi, I'm being abused.
How are you?
They are trying to work throughwhat they believe to be a
marriage problem.
And I will just remind you ofwhat my friend Leslie Bernick
says abuse is not a marriageproblem.
(07:04):
It causes marriage problems.
And that's a very importantthing to understand.
These aren't just high-conflictindividuals, it's not just
people who can't communicate andget along.
There is power and controlthere.
And that's what I really want toteach you to look for.
So, first of all, for couplestherapists or pastors that see
couples, this is the pattern Istrongly encourage you to
(07:28):
follow.
And that is when a couple comesto you and you meet with them
for the first time together andyou hear the story, you go,
okay, there's more I need toknow.
And this should be with anycouple, even if the relationship
is not coercively controlling ordestructive.
This is just a good process.
You don't know what you don'tknow.
Even if this couple has beenlike in your church, if you're a
(07:48):
pastor, there are things youdon't know until like you really
explore them.
So the second thing you're goingto do is schedule individual
time with each person.
So you're going to scheduleindividual time with the wife
and individual time with thehusband.
And this is really important.
And I have no tolerance, if I'mbeing just super bold here, when
you do not do this.
(08:09):
How are you going to getinformation?
You cannot ask what's reallygoing on with both parties
together, especially if there isa potential for a destructive
relationship.
And you should always assumethere is that potential.
So then you are going to meetwith each person individually
and get a sense of them andtheir relationship and what's
(08:31):
been going on.
And that's where you're going tostart to hear what might be
happening.
And if you hear that there iscoercion and control, then you
need to take that seriously andyou need to act accordingly.
And we'll talk about that injust a minute.
So I hear you asking, okay,Tabitha, what are some of the
questions I should ask?
I'm so glad that you asked methat.
(08:52):
So in individual sessions, thisis not something that we are
going to do in a couple session.
Please do not do this.
You're going to put someone indanger if you do.
The first question you want toask is, are you free to disagree
with your partner?
What happens when you disagree?
And hear the story.
Oh gosh, I would never disagree.
And don't think, oh wow, what asubmissive partner this is.
(09:14):
You want to understand why.
Oh, it would be hell to pay.
Horrible things would happen.
They wouldn't talk to me for aweek, whatever it might be.
And you really want to know whatis going on in that case.
Do you feel like there are twosets of rules in your home, one
for your spouse and one for you?
I hope you're enjoying thisepisode of Hey Tabby.
(09:38):
And we will be right back to itin just a minute.
You know, here on Hey Tabby, wetalk a lot about the hard stuff:
trauma, abuse, and the toll thatit takes on your mind, body, and
spirit.
And we want you to know youdon't have to walk that alone.
The Journey in the Process is atrauma-specialized counseling
(09:59):
center committed to helpingindividuals heal from deep
wounds through clinicallyexcellent, biblically grounded
care.
With offices in North Carolinaand Texas, telehealth services
across five states, and biblicalcounseling available globally,
our team of highly trainedChristian therapists and
certified biblical counselorsintegrate faith and whole
(10:22):
person, evidence-based practicesto address trauma at its root.
We believe that healing ispossible because Jesus still
sets the captives free.com.
(10:45):
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope, and we are hereto help you find it.
Now, let's get back to thisweek's episode.
Do you feel pressured to dothings you don't want to do?
And let me tell you, if you arenot ready to hear about things
in the bedroom, be prepared.
First of all, as therapists, Ithink that we should be able to
talk about those things veryopenly.
(11:07):
I know that that is part of thepremise of my book, Body and
Soul, Healed and Whole.
We have to be able to talk aboutsexuality and what's happening
in the bedroom.
Oftentimes, when coercivecontrol is present in any part
of the relationship, it is waypresent in the bedroom.
And we have people gettingdeeply harmed.
So you have to ask a questionlike this.
(11:28):
Things that you want to look foras well are fear of displeasing
their spouse.
What happens if they do?
You want to look forminimization and coded language,
things like, well, he or she isjust stressed, or you know, I
overreact, or I have anxiety.
All of those things are true,and people can overreact
sometimes or have anxiety orthings like that.
(11:51):
But when that's reallyprevalent, like, why?
Why is this person anxious?
What's happening?
What's going on?
And those are things you reallyneed to look for.
The other thing that you mightsee are mocking, intimidation.
So these are done typically bythe perpetrator of abuse or
spiritual misuse duringconflict.
So how are they using the Bibleto harm somebody?
(12:13):
How are they using the person'sfaith to maintain control?
What is their definition ofsubmission?
What is their definition of 1Corinthians 7?
These are questions that youreally need to lean into and
ask, especially if you're apastor doing this role for
couples counselors, those mightbe not many questions that you
ask, but how do they see faith?
(12:34):
How do they walk out their faithin their relationship?
And these are things that youreally need to understand.
If you hear things from thepotential victim of I need to
submit at all costs, then youneed to explore that further for
sure.
So why don't we want to docouples therapy?
Well, first of all, it can givefalse hope.
(12:54):
Abusers are not necessarilygoing to change in couples
therapy.
I've not seen that be the case.
It is very dangerous for anumber of reasons.
The victim is going to come ingood faith and definitely be
vulnerable and say things.
And that's either going to makethe abuser mad because they're
going to be outed, and thenthey're going to go home with
that person and potentiallydeeply harm or even kill.
And I did say kill theirpartner.
(13:16):
It is so dangerous to disagreewith an abuser.
And even if you don't thinkthere's been physical violence
before, it can change in asecond.
An advocate once told me a longtime ago, there is a fine line
between words and actions.
And that is a true statement.
There may be no physicalviolence until the partner
starts to ask for help.
And then there might be a lot.
(13:37):
And that can really get somebodykilled.
So we want to be so, so carefulwith this.
Additionally, the abuser mightuse therapy language or learn
new ways to control.
Twisting boundaries comes tomind.
I have seen this happen so manytimes.
Well, I'm just setting aboundary.
Well, no, that's not adefinition of a boundary.
What you're doing is laying atrap and also putting a fence
(13:58):
around your partner, right?
Boundaries are meant to saywhat's okay and what's not okay
with me, but not to thedenigration of the personhood of
another person, right?
People still get to bethemselves, even with
boundaries.
And again, the risk ofretaliation after a therapy
session is incredibly high.
I've heard this time and timeagain from the victims that I
(14:20):
have worked with that they wentto couples therapy, and then
anything that was shared wasthen weaponized against them at
home.
And it became absolutely awfulfor them.
We are not supposed to do harmas therapists.
That is literally the number oneethic we all follow.
So to not know what we areseeing or what we are doing in
(14:41):
this case, and to not have theunderstanding of coercive
control dynamics, quite frankly,is unethical.
I'm just going to say it, it'sunethical.
We have to know what we areseeing.
Now, look, we may not always getit right.
We may find out down the line,like as we're working with
someone, that we missedsomething, and we always just
(15:03):
reset from that point, right?
Then we say, you know, hey, Ithink that couples therapy right
now isn't the right fit for you.
I think there's some individualthings you each need to work on.
So I'm going to refer you out tothe therapist that can do that.
And you refer the perpetrator tosomebody that works with
perpetrators and understandsthat dynamic.
And you refer the victim tosomeone who works with victims.
(15:26):
Ideally, in this case, I like todo a warm handover just so I can
say, hey, here are the thingsI've been seeing.
And I really want to make surethat you're aware of them
because again, not everybody isgoing to pick it up really
quickly.
And we want to make sure thatpeople do.
This is not something we want tomiss.
This is too important to miss.
I know there might be a millionother questions, and you might
(15:47):
be sitting there if you'relistening to this as a therapist
or a pastor or a biblicalcounselor going, oh no, what do
I do?
I do want to invite you to signup for our certified coercive
control recovery therapist orcertified coercive control
recovery specialist, if this issomething that you are
interested in learning moreabout.
Those programs will launch inJanuary.
(16:09):
They are meant to give you areally good understanding and
how to work with this when yousee it in your counseling room.
And let me tell you, whether youare an individual counselor,
whether you are a couplescounselor, whether you are a
biblical counselor or a pastoralcounselor, you will see this in
front of you.
If you think you haven't yet,it's because you have missed it.
(16:30):
And I wish it were not soprevalent.
I wish that we treated eachother so differently in this
world.
And unfortunately, there arepeople there who want to be
destructive, who want their wayor no other way.
And that's just a sad reality.
And I truly hate that.
So if those things areinterested to you, there will be
a sign-up link for moreinformation in the show notes.
(16:52):
I really encourage you to reachout, to put your name in, and to
get more information so that youcan really help people well.
Both the perpetrator and thevictim deserve good care.
And we need to know what we areseeing so that we will give it.
Thank you so much for joining meon this week's episode of Hey
Tabby.
I am so grateful that you'rehere.
(17:14):
If you find this podcasthelpful, please send it to your
friend.
Please be sure to rate andreview it on your favorite
podcast platform because itreally helps people who need the
information find it.
Again, I'm so glad that you werewith me.
I can't wait to see you nexttime on Hey Tabby.
Hey friend, can I ask yousomething kind of personal?
(17:35):
Have you ever wondered ifhealing your sexuality was even
possible after everything you'vebeen through?
If you have, you're not alone.
That is exactly why I wrote Bodyand Soul, Healed and Whole, an
invitational guide to healthysexuality after trauma, abuse,
and coercive control.
This book is for every Christianwoman who has been harmed
(17:56):
sexually, whether that happenedin childhood, adulthood, or even
within your coercivelycontrolling marriage, and you're
longing to feel safe in yourbody again.
We talk about the hard stuff: shame, desire, faith, and even (18:07):
undefined
questions like, is this sin oris this trauma?
You don't have to untangle italone.
If you've ever wished for a guythat is honest, compassionate,
and grounded in both scriptureand trauma-informed care and
does not spiritually bypass,Body and Soul, Healed and Whole
(18:32):
is for you.
It's available now whereverbooks are sold.
Go grab your copy today.
You are so worth the healing.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of Hey Tabby.
If you're looking for a resourcethat I mentioned in the show and
you want to check out the shownotes, head on over to
(18:53):
tabithawestbrook.com forwardslash hey tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I, and youcan grab it there.
Look forward to seeing you nexttime.
Here's a hard truth that most people, especially
(00:02):
couples therapists, sadly do notknow.
Between one third to one half ofthe couples who come to your
therapy sessions are going to beexperiencing domestic abuse and
coercive control.
I know that sounds super crazy.
But if a therapist misses it, wecan actually arm the abuser with
additional tools to control, tomanipulate, and to harm their
(00:24):
partner.
We're going to talk about whycouples therapy is not at all
safe when abuse or coercivecontrol is present and what
every therapist needs to know tobe able to spot the difference
between a difficult ordisappointing marriage and one
that is destructive.
Welcome to Hey Tabby, thepodcast where we talk about the
hard things out loud with ouractual lips.
(00:46):
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here, andwe are not take two verses and
call me in the morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
(01:07):
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now, let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof Hey Tabby.
This one is for the therapists,but also for the clients that
might see them.
I wanted to talk about whattherapists need to understand
about domestic abuse andcoercive control and seeing
(01:31):
couples.
Unfortunately, I see far toomany therapists that do not
understand the dynamics.
They don't know what they areseeing when they look at it.
And that can really put both theperpetrator of the abuse and the
victim of the abuse in a badspace.
Puts the perpetrator in a badspace because you're not asking
them to change.
You ultimately end up becomingone of their minions and
(01:54):
furthering their agenda.
You put the victim in dangerbecause you keep them trapped
and you don't give them a wayout.
And so it's really important toknow what it is that you are
seeing.
It's also a huge societalproblem.
This is something that I don'tthink we think about very often
in terms of it being a publichealth crisis.
(02:14):
More than 54% of mass shootingsactually started as domestic
violence.
And so we see the aftermath ofthis in the greater society all
the time.
So it deeply matters.
That ongoing abuse piece for thevictim creates all kinds of
medical health issues, all kindsof autoimmune disorders, cardiac
(02:35):
issues, all sorts of things.
Not only that, but it causesthose same things in the
children that are in those homesas well.
If you look at the adversechildhood experiences study, it
tells you all kinds of thingsabout what it does to your body,
your physical body to grow up ina toxic environment.
One of the things that I sayoften is that all abuse is
(02:58):
physical abuse, because unlessyou can take your brain out of
your body and stick it in a jar,it is essentially a body part.
And the neurochemicals that arereleased in times of great
stress, which an abusiveenvironment is, end up deeply
harming our physiology.
We know that it is not good tolive under constant states of
high stress and trauma.
(03:18):
And I think knowing that as atherapist is something that we
really need to press into andsay, well, what am I doing to
help the situation and to helpmy clients truly?
So if you haven't been aroundhere long, let me redefine for
you what domestic abuse andcoercive control is.
It is a pattern of power andcontrol that is exercised by one
(03:41):
individual over another.
So it is someone taking theirpower and taking away the
autonomy, agency, and personageof another person.
And it's not just an isolatedincident.
So we can all be mean sometimes,right?
Like we're all gonna not haveour best day on occasion and say
something mean, and then we feelbad and we say we're sorry, we
(04:03):
repent for it, and then we movealong, right?
And we don't do it again.
It's not a pattern, it's aone-off.
And what we are seeing incoercively controlling
relationships is it's not aone-off.
That is the way the relationshipworks, and it is so important
for therapists to understandthat because one of the things
(04:27):
that often I see is an abusersaying, Well, yeah, I was mean
once, or yes, I did this thing,or I used to be, when they're
still very much that way.
And I think that's a reallyimportant thing to note.
It doesn't always look likedenying, it doesn't always look
like blaming the partner,although it often looks like
(04:48):
both of those things and thosethings may be present.
But it also can look like afalse repentance and crocodile
tears, where it seems sincere.
Yes, I did those things.
I was a horrible person, butwithout holding the weight of
what those things did to theirpartner.
Recently, I was part of a casewhere the victim was no longer
(05:11):
with the abuser, but the abuserhad gotten the ear of a pastor
and had said, Oh, I'm repentant,and maybe they are, but there
wasn't the weight held of thethings that were done to the
victim.
And it ended up being veryharmful.
And that's something that I wantall couples and anybody that
works with couples to understandis this is a big deal.
(05:35):
People helpers need to know thisinformation.
So if you are a pastor or acounselor listening today, I
really want you to dial intothis.
You often have a very tough job,right?
We do want to believe the bestabout people.
Of course we do.
Of course we do.
And I encourage that, but withwisdom, right?
(05:57):
The definition of wisdom is toknow what to do with the
information that you have.
It's not enough to know stuff.
You have to know what to do withthe stuff you know.
The adage is knowledge isknowing that tomato is a fruit,
and wisdom is knowing you don'tput it in a fruit salad.
And I think that's a reallyimportant thing.
Where are we looking for wisdomhere so that we don't walk where
we shouldn't walk in terms oftrying to help a couple?
(06:21):
Abusers are often, as Dr.
Deborah Wingfield puts it,cunning, conning, convincing,
and charming.
So they are going to presenttheir best selves to you in the
counseling space.
And very often the victim comesin as looking dysregulated,
crazy.
She might be the one yelling, orhe might be the one yelling and
looking much more off.
(06:41):
And you might go, oh gosh, wow,that person's kind of messy.
Whereas the abuser might becool, calming, collected, or
really giving you thosecrocodile tears.
A lot of times, victims don'tsay, Hi, I'm being abused.
How are you?
They are trying to work throughwhat they believe to be a
marriage problem.
And I will just remind you ofwhat my friend Leslie Bernick
says abuse is not a marriageproblem.
(07:04):
It causes marriage problems.
And that's a very importantthing to understand.
These aren't just high-conflictindividuals, it's not just
people who can't communicate andget along.
There is power and controlthere.
And that's what I really want toteach you to look for.
So, first of all, for couplestherapists or pastors that see
couples, this is the pattern Istrongly encourage you to
(07:28):
follow.
And that is when a couple comesto you and you meet with them
for the first time together andyou hear the story, you go,
okay, there's more I need toknow.
And this should be with anycouple, even if the relationship
is not coercively controlling ordestructive.
This is just a good process.
You don't know what you don'tknow.
Even if this couple has beenlike in your church, if you're a
(07:48):
pastor, there are things youdon't know until like you really
explore them.
So the second thing you're goingto do is schedule individual
time with each person.
So you're going to scheduleindividual time with the wife
and individual time with thehusband.
And this is really important.
And I have no tolerance, if I'mbeing just super bold here, when
you do not do this.
(08:09):
How are you going to getinformation?
You cannot ask what's reallygoing on with both parties
together, especially if there isa potential for a destructive
relationship.
And you should always assumethere is that potential.
So then you are going to meetwith each person individually
and get a sense of them andtheir relationship and what's
(08:31):
been going on.
And that's where you're going tostart to hear what might be
happening.
And if you hear that there iscoercion and control, then you
need to take that seriously andyou need to act accordingly.
And we'll talk about that injust a minute.
So I hear you asking, okay,Tabitha, what are some of the
questions I should ask?
I'm so glad that you asked methat.
(08:52):
So in individual sessions, thisis not something that we are
going to do in a couple session.
Please do not do this.
You're going to put someone indanger if you do.
The first question you want toask is, are you free to disagree
with your partner?
What happens when you disagree?
And hear the story.
Oh gosh, I would never disagree.
And don't think, oh wow, what asubmissive partner this is.
(09:14):
You want to understand why.
Oh, it would be hell to pay.
Horrible things would happen.
They wouldn't talk to me for aweek, whatever it might be.
And you really want to know whatis going on in that case.
Do you feel like there are twosets of rules in your home, one
for your spouse and one for you?
I hope you're enjoying thisepisode of Hey Tabby.
(09:38):
And we will be right back to itin just a minute.
You know, here on Hey Tabby, wetalk a lot about the hard stuff:
trauma, abuse, and the toll thatit takes on your mind, body, and
spirit.
And we want you to know youdon't have to walk that alone.
The Journey in the Process is atrauma-specialized counseling
(09:59):
center committed to helpingindividuals heal from deep
wounds through clinicallyexcellent, biblically grounded
care.
With offices in North Carolinaand Texas, telehealth services
across five states, and biblicalcounseling available globally,
our team of highly trainedChristian therapists and
certified biblical counselorsintegrate faith and whole
(10:22):
person, evidence-based practicesto address trauma at its root.
We believe that healing ispossible because Jesus still
sets the captives free.com.
(10:45):
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope, and we are hereto help you find it.
Now, let's get back to thisweek's episode.
Do you feel pressured to dothings you don't want to do?
And let me tell you, if you arenot ready to hear about things
in the bedroom, be prepared.
First of all, as therapists, Ithink that we should be able to
talk about those things veryopenly.
(11:07):
I know that that is part of thepremise of my book, Body and
Soul, Healed and Whole.
We have to be able to talk aboutsexuality and what's happening
in the bedroom.
Oftentimes, when coercivecontrol is present in any part
of the relationship, it is waypresent in the bedroom.
And we have people gettingdeeply harmed.
So you have to ask a questionlike this.
(11:28):
Things that you want to look foras well are fear of displeasing
their spouse.
What happens if they do?
You want to look forminimization and coded language,
things like, well, he or she isjust stressed, or you know, I
overreact, or I have anxiety.
All of those things are true,and people can overreact
sometimes or have anxiety orthings like that.
(11:51):
But when that's reallyprevalent, like, why?
Why is this person anxious?
What's happening?
What's going on?
And those are things you reallyneed to look for.
The other thing that you mightsee are mocking, intimidation.
So these are done typically bythe perpetrator of abuse or
spiritual misuse duringconflict.
So how are they using the Bibleto harm somebody?
(12:13):
How are they using the person'sfaith to maintain control?
What is their definition ofsubmission?
What is their definition of 1Corinthians 7?
These are questions that youreally need to lean into and
ask, especially if you're apastor doing this role for
couples counselors, those mightbe not many questions that you
ask, but how do they see faith?
(12:34):
How do they walk out their faithin their relationship?
And these are things that youreally need to understand.
If you hear things from thepotential victim of I need to
submit at all costs, then youneed to explore that further for
sure.
So why don't we want to docouples therapy?
Well, first of all, it can givefalse hope.
(12:54):
Abusers are not necessarilygoing to change in couples
therapy.
I've not seen that be the case.
It is very dangerous for anumber of reasons.
The victim is going to come ingood faith and definitely be
vulnerable and say things.
And that's either going to makethe abuser mad because they're
going to be outed, and thenthey're going to go home with
that person and potentiallydeeply harm or even kill.
And I did say kill theirpartner.
(13:16):
It is so dangerous to disagreewith an abuser.
And even if you don't thinkthere's been physical violence
before, it can change in asecond.
An advocate once told me a longtime ago, there is a fine line
between words and actions.
And that is a true statement.
There may be no physicalviolence until the partner
starts to ask for help.
And then there might be a lot.
(13:37):
And that can really get somebodykilled.
So we want to be so, so carefulwith this.
Additionally, the abuser mightuse therapy language or learn
new ways to control.
Twisting boundaries comes tomind.
I have seen this happen so manytimes.
Well, I'm just setting aboundary.
Well, no, that's not adefinition of a boundary.
What you're doing is laying atrap and also putting a fence
(13:58):
around your partner, right?
Boundaries are meant to saywhat's okay and what's not okay
with me, but not to thedenigration of the personhood of
another person, right?
People still get to bethemselves, even with
boundaries.
And again, the risk ofretaliation after a therapy
session is incredibly high.
I've heard this time and timeagain from the victims that I
(14:20):
have worked with that they wentto couples therapy, and then
anything that was shared wasthen weaponized against them at
home.
And it became absolutely awfulfor them.
We are not supposed to do harmas therapists.
That is literally the number oneethic we all follow.
So to not know what we areseeing or what we are doing in
(14:41):
this case, and to not have theunderstanding of coercive
control dynamics, quite frankly,is unethical.
I'm just going to say it, it'sunethical.
We have to know what we areseeing.
Now, look, we may not always getit right.
We may find out down the line,like as we're working with
someone, that we missedsomething, and we always just
(15:03):
reset from that point, right?
Then we say, you know, hey, Ithink that couples therapy right
now isn't the right fit for you.
I think there's some individualthings you each need to work on.
So I'm going to refer you out tothe therapist that can do that.
And you refer the perpetrator tosomebody that works with
perpetrators and understandsthat dynamic.
And you refer the victim tosomeone who works with victims.
(15:26):
Ideally, in this case, I like todo a warm handover just so I can
say, hey, here are the thingsI've been seeing.
And I really want to make surethat you're aware of them
because again, not everybody isgoing to pick it up really
quickly.
And we want to make sure thatpeople do.
This is not something we want tomiss.
This is too important to miss.
I know there might be a millionother questions, and you might
(15:47):
be sitting there if you'relistening to this as a therapist
or a pastor or a biblicalcounselor going, oh no, what do
I do?
I do want to invite you to signup for our certified coercive
control recovery therapist orcertified coercive control
recovery specialist, if this issomething that you are
interested in learning moreabout.
Those programs will launch inJanuary.
(16:09):
They are meant to give you areally good understanding and
how to work with this when yousee it in your counseling room.
And let me tell you, whether youare an individual counselor,
whether you are a couplescounselor, whether you are a
biblical counselor or a pastoralcounselor, you will see this in
front of you.
If you think you haven't yet,it's because you have missed it.
(16:30):
And I wish it were not soprevalent.
I wish that we treated eachother so differently in this
world.
And unfortunately, there arepeople there who want to be
destructive, who want their wayor no other way.
And that's just a sad reality.
And I truly hate that.
So if those things areinterested to you, there will be
a sign-up link for moreinformation in the show notes.
(16:52):
I really encourage you to reachout, to put your name in, and to
get more information so that youcan really help people well.
Both the perpetrator and thevictim deserve good care.
And we need to know what we areseeing so that we will give it.
Thank you so much for joining meon this week's episode of Hey
Tabby.
I am so grateful that you'rehere.
(17:14):
If you find this podcasthelpful, please send it to your
friend.
Please be sure to rate andreview it on your favorite
podcast platform because itreally helps people who need the
information find it.
Again, I'm so glad that you werewith me.
I can't wait to see you nexttime on Hey Tabby.
Hey friend, can I ask yousomething kind of personal?
(17:35):
Have you ever wondered ifhealing your sexuality was even
possible after everything you'vebeen through?
If you have, you're not alone.
That is exactly why I wrote Bodyand Soul, Healed and Whole, an
invitational guide to healthysexuality after trauma, abuse,
and coercive control.
This book is for every Christianwoman who has been harmed
(17:56):
sexually, whether that happenedin childhood, adulthood, or even
within your coercivelycontrolling marriage, and you're
longing to feel safe in yourbody again.
We talk about the hard stuff: shame, desire, faith, and even (18:07):
undefined
questions like, is this sin oris this trauma?
You don't have to untangle italone.
If you've ever wished for a guythat is honest, compassionate,
and grounded in both scriptureand trauma-informed care and
does not spiritually bypass,Body and Soul, Healed and Whole
(18:32):
is for you.
It's available now whereverbooks are sold.
Go grab your copy today.
You are so worth the healing.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of Hey Tabby.
If you're looking for a resourcethat I mentioned in the show and
you want to check out the shownotes, head on over to
(18:53):
tabithawestbrook.com forwardslash hey tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I, and youcan grab it there.
Look forward to seeing you nexttime.
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