May 19, 2025 • 50 mins
What does true repentance look like for someone who has abused their partner? Is real change possible—and if so, what does it take?
In this hard-hitting episode of Hey Tabi, trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook sits down with pastor, biblical counselor, and domestic abuse interventionist Chris Moles to dig into the gritty realities of faith-based perpetrator intervention. Together, they unpack:
- Why traditional couples counseling fails in abuse cases
- What the Men of Peace program teaches about accountability and repentance
- How coercive control distorts a person’s view of love, intimacy, and authority
- Why emotional abuse is often just the beginning—and how to detect sexual coercion
- How pastors can avoid colluding with abusers and instead walk in truth and justice
- The vital need for multidisciplinary care teams to support both survivors and perpetrators
Whether you’re a survivor, a ministry leader, or a clinician, this conversation will challenge and equip you with biblical insight, clinical depth, and gospel hope.
💡 Listen in as we call abusers to repentance and the church to courage.
🔗 Find Chris at chrismoles.org, menofpeace.org
📘 Mentioned Resources:
The Heart of Domestic Abuse - https://amzn.to/43g0BDq
Caring for Families Caught in Domestic Abuse - https://amzn.to/4jXYOd7
When Home Hurts - https://amzn.to/3YP3tpq
🛑 Trigger Warning: This episode contains candid discussion of abuse, sexual coercion, and spiritual harm.
🎧 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com
💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
📲 The Journey & The Process Instagram - www.instagram.com/_tjatp
Subscribe to my YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there
👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!
🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
Need to know how to find a great therapist? Read this...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud, withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof hey Tabby.
I am joined by one of myfavorite brothers in Christ and
(00:44):
my good friend, Chris Moles.
And Chris, I am going to inviteyou to introduce yourself to
our audience.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, hey, tabby, it's good to be a podcast buddy.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
You're the first person to do that.
That was amazing.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Really, I thought that was supposed to be the
gimmick.
No, but we should start.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I'm going to telegraph that to other guests.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yes, please.
Well, friends, hey to you too.
My name is Chris Moles.
I'm a pastor, biblicalcounselor, I am an ordained
minister and have worked in thefield of domestic abuse
intervention and prevention fornearly 20 years now.
Field of domestic abuseintervention and prevention for
(01:27):
nearly 20 years now.
By God's grace, I have beenable to work thousands of case
hours with primarily men who areabusive and try to share some
of that wisdom with the churchfamily at large and the
counseling community as well.
And really thankful to be partof Tabby's tribe and be on the
hey, tabby podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I'm really excited to have you here, and you are the
author of a couple of books, andwe'll talk about those near the
end and let folks know where toget them as well.
Today, we're going to talk aboutfor lack of a better way to put
it perpetrator intervention,batter intervention, invitation
to repentance for those who aredestructive, and this is
(02:08):
something I see you doespecially well.
I have been through the men ofpeace training at this point, I
don't know how many times I keepgoing because I love it, and
also I don't think you can hearit too much, and that is one
thing I will say just out of thegate.
If you have not been trained inmen of peace from a faith-based
perpetrator interventionperspective, I commend it highly
(02:29):
because you will learn so much.
Even if you're an advocate whodoes not necessarily want to
work with that population, I dothink you need to understand it
because it makes you a betteradvocate.
And so tell me, chris, whatmade you want to move toward
that invitational and alsohighly accountability related
intervention process for peoplewho are destructive men in
(02:51):
particular, who are destructive.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I think it was providential.
I would be lying if I had saidthat I had any type of plan or
structure or desire to get intothis work.
Structure or desire to get intothis work.
I was a youth pastor struggling, then a church planter,
struggling financially, and hadfound work part-time in my early
(03:14):
ministry career in criminalcorrections as an educator, and
so I was working for a localcorrections agency in behavioral
health and it was just kind oflike being in a small place,
small town.
I was a warm body who could putsentences together and really
didn't feel like I was all thatequipped.
(03:34):
But found a niche there anddiscovered that I was pretty
skilled as a teacher and was notintimidated by the population
which helps.
Worked primarily with drugoffenders and then began working
as a batterer interventiongroup facilitator If anyone's
familiar with Emerge, amends,duluth the big names in the
(03:57):
secular community and it's justpsychoeducational facilitated
groups a lot of timesfunctioning in the criminal
justice system or in behavioralhealth or community-based
agencies was trained in thatprocess, began working with men
and I did that in the criminalcorrections world for 17 years I
(04:20):
think, and it changed my lifeand really what was most
interesting to me and thisshould answer your question, I
hope was being a biblicalcounselor and being a pastor and
watching how, when we broughtin principles of worldview
development and I think GregWilson and Jeremy Pierre did the
best job of unpacking this intheir book when Home Hurts that
(04:43):
abuse is not just corruptedbehavior, it's Hurts, that abuse
is not just corrupted behavior,it's corrupted perception.
So it's not just how we act buthow we see the world, and I
would say that from a greatcommandment perspective in my
work, right that we're to loveGod, love others and have a
proper understanding of who weare, and it gets completely
distorted in abuse work andamong abusers.
But what I found waspsychoeducation was addressing
(05:07):
the behavior and the worldview,but we were restricted.
We were told not to establishan alternative worldview.
The thought was it's going tocome naturally out of the
individuals, which does nothappen theologically.
So my partner and I, knowingthis as Christians, we began to
address the heart and within amatter of a few years we had the
lowest recidivism rate in thestate.
(05:29):
We were being asked to helpwrite curriculum.
People were interviewing us forthe DOJ about our groups and it
really dawned on me that, ok,if just scriptural principles
will make that big of adifference in a secular model.
What would it look like if wewent full blown with a biblical
alternative?
(05:49):
What would that look like ifthe church got a hold of this
and the Lord just completelyused that thought to birth my
first book, and then theopportunities to travel and
speak, and then Men of Peace, asyou referenced, which is our
digital course, and subsequentother products and pilot groups
that we've seen around thecountry?
Speaker 1 (06:09):
That's awesome and it's always interesting to me.
Psychological research isreally helpful when you don't
look at what they think.
The ideology is Right.
Right, because there can begreat observational research
where you can go.
I see this happening.
Yeah, but the why reallymatters.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I think that's the big hang up with my world, tabby
, and you've seen this too, andI know there's been way too much
conflict over the Duluth powerand control wheels.
I was in the Duluth model.
I know full well that DAIP,that's the Duluth Abuse
Intervention Project thatphilosophically they attribute a
lot of their work to earlycritical theorists, like that
(06:47):
didn't shock me and it didn'tintimidate me, because the power
and control wheel was createdin interviews with 200 victims
of domestic abuse.
So the rubric, the lens thatinspired the work was based in
observation, the philosophyright, we're all going to bring
our own thing to the table, andso when I saw the observational
(07:08):
work, I wanted to bring biblicaltruth to the table and I think
it's effective.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I think it's very effective.
I know that as a co-facilitatorof what is essentially a men of
peace group under a differentname that we have seen it be
effective.
It's going to sift out peopleone way or another, right.
We are going to see the peoplewho are hard in heart and who
have no desire to change becausethey do not want to give up the
power and control the way theysee the world is.
(07:33):
You are my property, and thisis what I tell people all the
time.
Abusive individuals who aredestructive people see you as
basically a couch that can talk,make sandwiches and do other
things.
You are property, and that isthe fundamental bottom line,
because it's entitlement andpride and the same spirit that
Satan had when he said I willsit on the throne and be like
(07:54):
the most high, which isterrifying.
And so I think bringing thatbiblical truth to it and saying
we want to invite you tosomething different is so
powerful to it and saying wewant to invite you to something
different is so powerful.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, Well, that's really the theological
underpinning of that, which justhaving this conversation I
think is helpful for listenersto hear that we're taking things
that the world's observing, andthen we're recognizing that
scripture has been talking aboutthis for a long time.
Like you, you just describedthe heart of pride.
Right, that's evident in almostevery destructive pattern in
Scripture that we have a remedyto, which is the heart, the mind
of Christ.
(08:29):
We talk about it in Philippians2.
Well, we've seen that in theresearch as well.
I think it was Ellen Pence whofirst talked about abuse, every
abuse relationship havingdestructive hierarchy,
objectification, forcedsubmission and impunity.
Well, then we look at biblicalnarratives, and I think you've
heard me teach on 2 Samuel,where we've used that in King
(08:50):
David's life.
The same observable patternsare there.
It's not like we're makingthings up, we're seeing this
happen, and then the Biblereiterates that we saw it happen
in ancient times.
We see it happen in the humanheart.
People are broken and fragileand that depravity and fragility
operate in this really uniqueway, and abusers are not exempt
(09:11):
to that.
In their own fragility anddepravity they're doing
incredibly wicked things thatneed to be addressed.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Absolutely and my observation is sadly a very few
percentage that desire and willattempt to change right, it will
really surrender to the HolySpirit and let the word of God
and the weight of Christ bearfruit in their life.
Frankly.
But for the men that I seeeking towards safety is kind of
(09:40):
how it feels, like they're justsliding along slow.
I've seen them have to reckonwith grief and past trauma and
all of those things, and you andI both know addiction and
trauma are not causative butthey are correlative so they
often happen together.
But there's lots of people whoexperience both and never abuse
anyone, but it doesn't negatethat they are also there at
(10:03):
times for people.
But once you get thataccountability and they're going
, oh, I am the problem.
You know, in the immortal wordsof Taylor Swift, hi, it's me.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I'm the problem.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yes, you know.
But they can start going I needto do this different, yeah and
slide themselves with the Lordalong a little bit, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
We're told that it's God's kindness that leads us to
repentance, and so if we'remotivated to change right, we
then have to experience God forwho he is, because this is not
and what I mean by that Tabby iseveryone changes.
It's just to what degree youchange and in what direction you
(10:44):
change right.
So when pressure is applied,abusive individuals will
sometimes become more obstinate,sometimes they'll become more
manipulative or they'll behavebetter, and then sometimes
transformations there, thetransformative pieces we're
saying, come through theconviction and power of the Holy
Spirit.
And yes, consequences canprompt us to pursue change, a
(11:06):
desperation can prompt us, butreally, without the Lord's
kindness, that change is notgoing to be lasting and it's not
going to be powerful.
I'll settle for safe people, butI really want to see sanctified
people.
Now, certainly, I'm working forvictim safety.
So if a guy makes necessarychanges and she's okay with that
(11:28):
, I'll be okay with that.
But I really want to seetransformation that happens in
the heart and, like you say,it's rare but it's a work of the
spirit and when it does happen,it's one of the most miraculous
and reaffirming things aboutthe gospel in my life.
It's like yes, the gospel istrue and when we sing that song
(11:48):
that it's the vilest and thepoor.
That's the reality for me.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
When to see an abusive person turn in
repentance and change, andlasting change, it's just
evidence of how wonderful andmighty the gospel really is
Absolutely, and I want to saythis explicitly, just because
you and I both know this gets alittle tricky for people Just
because someone changes does notmean the marriage will survive.
Sometimes things are far toobroken for reconciliation, and
(12:13):
safety actually means that thatis not reconciled, and so even
if someone eventually doeschange, that may not and
oftentimes, because things areso broken, cannot save the
relationship.
So I just want to sayexplicitly, because I think if
someone's listening going, oh,but wait for God, wait for God.
You know, like how long do youwant someone to live in
(12:34):
destruction on a hope?
You know that doesn't seem likeJesus at all.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Well, you know, a couple of things come to mind.
One thing I tell guys quite abit is that and we'll grieve
this when the time comes, butunderstand that you may have
forfeited certain aspects ofyour life that are now outside
of your control.
You've tried to control thingsso much that you've actually
pushed them away, and so for theguys that I've worked with over
(13:00):
the years, sometimes that meansthey forfeited their very
freedom, right, because they'rein jail or they're going to be
under some kind of probation fora long period of time.
Maybe they forfeited their work, but sometimes that means they
forfeited their family and thereis no rebuilding.
And a lot of that has to dowith the extent of the abuse.
(13:21):
So I find that guys that havereally gone up the ladder to a
high degree, it's really hard tostep back down and rebuild that
trust.
When you have sexually assaultedsomeone, physically assaulted
them.
Long-term emotional andpsychological abuse, decades of
harm, contempt and disdain arevery hard to walk back.
But then also it's the capacityof the individuals.
(13:43):
So there's just no way ofknowing what the marriage or the
relationship will look likeuntil we've done the hard work,
what we call them paralleltracks of comfort for the victim
, healing work and alsoconfrontation, accountability
for the perpetrator.
We want to do that work first,and then we'll talk about
(14:04):
reconciliation at the end andwhat that looks like, and you've
heard me say probably a hundredtimes restoration and
reconciliation to God, and thenwe'll worry about those earthly
relationships, because mostabusive individuals, even that,
claim the name of Jesus.
They need a salvific encounterwith the Lord or they need a
(14:26):
recommitment to the Lord,depending on your theological
standpoint, more desperate thanthey need restored to marriage
or certainly restored toministry.
They really need to focus ontheir relationship with Jesus
and get that right, because theacts that they're perpetrating
are definitively anti-Christ.
They are contradicting the workand mission of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Absolutely, they most definitely are.
In fact, if we look atGalatians 5, it's that first set
of the fruits of the flesh thatlead to death and destruction
and whatnot that we are oftenseeing.
Yet they're saying I believe inJesus, and if that's true and
the Holy Spirit is bearingweight on your life, then you
should be at the end ofGalatians 5, not the beginning.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yes, and even if that's true so we come to the
end of Galatians 5 and you'renot full of the power and
presence of the Holy Spirit andyou are continuing to live in
the works of flesh, then thechurch has given instructions in
Galatians 6 of what our role is, which is as spiritual people
as the spiritually mature in thechurch.
We're supposed to call you toaccount.
If someone is still burdenedand overwhelmed by habitual sin,
you, who are spiritual, restoresuch a one with gentleness, and
(15:33):
God will not be mocked.
A man will reap what he sows,which is really honestly, the
biblical framework for what wedo Tabby in confrontational
ministry is we try to couch thisreally hard work of confronting
deep entrenched ugly, gross sin, with gentleness and
(15:53):
winsomeness, because we knowthat God is in charge of the
consequences.
And it's like I used to say tomy clients and then I'll throw
it back to you I used to say tomy clients in the correction
side when they would try toplead their case and try to do
classroom court, which I'm likewe don't do classroom court,
like I'm called to educate.
You've already been judged.
(16:14):
I'm not here to judge, like I'mreally not going to bash your
character, but you've alreadybeen judged and that sentence
was to come to this class andwith Christians and church
members and people who claim tobe Christians who are now coming
to me for help with the abusethey perpetrated against their
partner, you already stand underjudgment.
That's the case for sin.
I want to restore you to theLord.
(16:36):
I want less than theconsequences, but I will be
winsome and gentle.
My job is not to be a jerk,because I think the judgment
that you're standing under is alot harsher than anything I
could wield and I certainly wantto invite you to repentance,
not push you away from it and Ithink that's something we hear a
lot in the church is what weneed to punish and we need to be
punitive, and really that's whyGod gave us the government
(17:00):
according to Romans 13.
But for us, as much as itdepends upon us, we're going to
live at peace with everyone andwe're going to overcome evil
with good, and sometimes I thinkwe're going to overwhelm evil
people with the goodness of God.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I would definitely agree and I'd say there's a
middle path here.
That from a practicalitystandpoint because I can see
some pastors going oh well, wehave to be winsome and gentle
and that means they get to cometo third service when the victim
goes to first service, and I'mlike that actually isn't
kindness, that's niceness andthose are not the same word.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yep, that's Ephesians , chapter four, right, I think
I'm getting my addresses correct.
Verse 31, paul gives these sixexpressions of anger that are
sinful rage, malice, slander, soon and then three expressions
of anger that are righteouskindness, compassion and
forgiveness.
Just as in Christ, god forgaveyou.
I bring that up because inresponses to abuse, we as
(17:56):
pastors, we should operate in arighteous indignation, a
righteous anger, and so my roleis really not to harm this
individual.
I want to help them, but thatrequires kindness, and that
kindness is to speak the truthin love and to allow
consequences to take effect.
I'm supposed to becompassionate.
I really do pity the situationthat he's put himself in a
(18:17):
really hard place.
I'm not going to lessen that,I'm going to highlight that.
And then I want to promoteforgiveness, which is the same
way that God forgave me.
I need to repent.
I need him to repent in orderto make things right.
So I would agree with you.
I think sometimes we lean intoniceness and we put victims in
really difficult situations,like passing him in the hallway
(18:40):
or even defying court orders.
We've had victims who soughtthe help of civil authorities
and had no contact orders, andthe church is trying to navigate
the opportunity for them to goto the same church for worship.
I'm like A it violates thecourt order.
B how is anyone going tocomfortably worship with their
(19:01):
abuser in the room or in thebuilding?
Find a partner church, findanother pastor, work it out.
If they want to worship, thenworship should be more important
to them than being in thepresence of their spouse.
Right, so it's.
You want to worship?
Go worship over at BrotherJohn's Presbyterian Church or
Sister Sally's PentecostalChurch.
Don't come here knowing thatit's going to put your victim in
(19:26):
a difficult situation.
And really, last point, awilling heart does that.
A willful heart resists that.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Exactly.
And there's also this reallyfun thing called the internet
that you can watch the livestream on a Sunday and sit at
home and make your own pancakes.
And if you are really trulycaring about the victim and you
are the perpetrator and you'relike I really do want to change,
I see the error of my ways,then your butt is sitting at
home, you are doing whatever ittakes to prove that you can
(19:57):
adhere to a boundary, and I knowthat in my work with
perpetrators I have seen theones that absolutely don't do
that.
They're like well, I don'tunderstand, like how long is it
going to take?
And it's like oh, my friend,it's going to take much longer
than you'd like.
And that makes me think of, Imean, galatians 6.1, which is do
not grow weary of doing good,for in due time you shall reap a
harvest.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Right.
So the idea that resistance isviewed as an attack is a big
deal with perpetrators, becauseperpetrators often feel like
they're victims right, so theysee boundaries as an attack.
And then the second is thewillful willing that I just said
, actually understanding thatyou are no longer in control
(20:41):
right and resting in thatcontrol right and resting in
that.
And I would say, when I've hadguys over the years Tabby who
have finally let go of that andthey're like I caused this, like
I created this mess, and so Ineed to be humble enough to
respond to her requests orrespect those boundaries, I feel
(21:02):
like man, we're halfway homenow, like we've rounded second
at this point, because we'vespent weeks upon weeks, upon
weeks answering questions likewell, when can we get back
together in the home, and whencan we start marriage counseling
, and when will this happen?
And haven't I done enough?
And I've done everything youguys have asked me to do, and
I'm like you're asking all thewrong questions, bro, like
you're asking all the wrongthings.
(21:24):
And when that hearttransformation begins to happen,
and when repentance reallybegins to be embraced, that's
when we see what our friend Gregcalls ownership.
I've seen my sin, now I'mowning my sin, and now I'm
walking into this hatred of mysin.
I'm beginning to see my sin,the way God does, right.
My sin is not an obstacle to megetting what I want.
So I've got to sin better orsin differently.
(21:46):
My sin has actually separatedme from a holy God and it's put
me in a desperate situation andI need repentance, forgiveness,
grace and mercy, and then I needto live that type of life.
That's good stuff That'llpreach.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Absolutely For sure, and I think there's such a
grasping at that control becauseit has been what they have
always done and it's worked forthem.
I also think it might be veryhelpful for pastors to
understand, especially ifthey're not familiar with victim
care.
You may not see evidence ofphysical abuse, but this is my
(22:23):
contention as a therapist who isa neuroscience geek All abuse,
all coercive control, isphysical abuse because unless
you can take your brain andstick it outside your body, in a
jar that is inside your bodyand it's dumping out
neurochemicals that are causingall kinds of shenanigans like
inflammation, autoimmune disease, especially if it goes on every
(22:44):
long periods of time, and thisis what I have not heard very
many pastors ask about, and Ithink they should start if
they're going to do this workand really press in with people
and shepherd is what's happeningin the bedroom, because I
guarantee you, almost everyvictim I have ever worked with
has been sexually assaulted overand over and over for years.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, that's what I was getting ready to say.
I think A bringing up theautoimmune disorders.
That's been an interestingrealization, probably the last
what 10 years when we'veactually begun to see how
longstanding emotional what wecall longstanding emotional
abuse tends to affect usphysically, whether it's GI
issues or digestive issues.
But then this autoimmunecomponent, it's been really
(23:27):
fascinating.
The correlation between that.
It's similar to the correlationthat we're seeing in the abuser
world.
This is just nerd talk and I'llpivot with things like OCD
among abusers and how they'redeveloping certain behavioral
disorders, which is reallyinteresting, and it becomes a
control mechanism.
And then I think the second tothat that's been really
(23:49):
fascinating is that second pointyou bring up.
I was getting ready to say whenI have a pastor or a ministry
leader or even a counselor,especially biblical counselors,
who contact me and talk aboutsuspected emotional abuse, which
is a really tricky topic in theChristian world right now,
they'll say something like allwe see, all she's experiencing
(24:10):
is emotional abuse.
I'll say probably not.
The odds are really really goodthat if you start pulling the
rope you're going to find otheraspects of abuse.
And I always encourage them tostart with sexual coercion
because we have seen not 100% ofthe time, but the vast majority
of time.
If someone's experiencingridicule, coercion, threat, fear
(24:34):
, that is tied to thoseemotional categories, the odds
are really really good thatthat's presenting itself in the
bedroom.
And now you've got two pointson the map right A sexual
assault and emotional abuse.
And then you're like well, Iprobably got to pry in the money
.
Oh for sure, or I really need totalk to him safely, with the
(24:57):
advice and consent of the victimand a safety plan and all the
things.
But once I talked to him Ireally need to address the
minimization, denial and blame,because that's going to be
probably the first thing that hepresents with.
And now I've got three pointson my map and I'm like I'm
seeing a pattern and that's inthe abuse world.
That's the ticket right.
(25:17):
Once we establish a pattern,now we know what we're dealing
with and it reveals a lot morewhat's happening in the heart
and the mind.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Absolutely.
And for the pastors who might belistening to this and think I'm
sure it's not like that, I willtell you about a group of guys
that I was co-facilitating aperpetrator group, and we got to
sex week and me, being acertified sex addiction
therapist, that always getsvolleyed over to me.
I can't imagine why, and one ofthe things we were talking about
(25:46):
was consent and what is consentactually?
And the way that I defineconsent is it's either a hell
yes or a hell no, and there isno in between, frankly, but it's
an enthusiastic yes.
And I asked them have you everhad sex with your wife, done any
sexual behaviors, not justintercourse, because sex is more
than just intercourse withoutexplicit consent?
(26:08):
And I watched a whole group ofmen get much more pale and very
quiet, and so we asked them tothink about that.
Over the course of the weekthat was their homework, and the
next week they came back and Isaid how many of you have
engaged in sexual behavior withyour wife without explicit
consent?
And every guy in the room andand we had 11, put their hand up
(26:28):
and I said there is one wordfor what you have done and that
is rape, and that is somethingpastors don't lean into Right.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah, so consent, like especially in the sexual
abuse conversation, consent's amassive discussion.
I remember one time in a groupwe had broke up into smaller
groups because we had a largeclass at that time and I was
always the guy that got that oneLike I was the one that had to
facilitate the sexual coerciontheme and we had a guy asking
questions because he was reallyconfused and honestly, his
(27:04):
ignorance is not an excuse.
He was so confused and it wasone of the other clients that
said, bro, you, you are rapingher and it was like he was hit
with a brick in the face.
He really he really thoughtthat sexual expression in a
relationship was totallydependent upon him and his needs
(27:24):
were central.
It was so selfish andself-centered and we could go
into the whole contributiveconversation about his past
trauma, how he was affected as achild and all of that, but
nonetheless he was sinningagainst his partner in a
significant way that requiredanother guy to highlight it.
And I think part of that is wedon't talk about it in our
culture.
When we do talk about it, wetalk about it in really poor
(27:48):
terms and I was just speaking toour friend Greg about this
recently, because he and I aredoing a webinar on some of this.
Discussing some of the incelthings is feeding existing
misogyny, meaning it is anideological perspective that's
(28:10):
interpreting the world through acorrupted lens and really as
Christians we have a biblicallens that we should be seeing
the culture through.
So the culture's misogynisticin a lot of ways and the
pushback is usuallyinappropriate, like a lot of the
feminist pushback has deviatedso far that it's like well,
(28:30):
that's not healthy.
So there's a biblical worldviewthat we need to introduce guys
to in all of these topics.
But back to the original point,tabby, if I hear emotional
abuse and a pastor or a ministryleader calls me and that's all
they found, I highly encouragethem to start with sexual
coercion and then move aroundthe circle finding more, because
(28:52):
the odds are dollars to donuts,there's probably sexual
coercion happening.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Absolutely, and I think this is a place where I
would invite pastors to lean inin a couple of ways.
One look at your own theologyon male-female relationships and
marital sexual relationships,because there can be some real
distortion there.
You know her, yes, was not atthe altar, that is not what 1
Corinthians 7 says.
(29:17):
It's actually an equalizer,because in that culture women
didn't have the right to say noand so when Paul says, the
inspiration of the spirit hisbody's also yours.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Exactly yeah, that never existed before.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Exactly.
And so I think, to mesanctification is being willing
to let the word bear weight andthe Holy Spirit bear weight on
what I believe.
And one of the things I seejust doing this work, on both
the perpetrator and the victimside, is that sometimes pastors
don't realize the water theyswim in and what they've been
(29:54):
drinking.
And it reminds me of that oldadage that we hear a lot of the
two younger fish are swimmingalong and the older fish swims
by and goes how's the water?
And they go what water, what's?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
water, because they don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
And so, for pastors, I would just invite you, are you
like towing the system line?
Whatever system you're in,whatever denomination you're in,
are you really letting the HolySpirit bear weight on your soul
for sanctification?
And then what?
I'm just going to say this ifyou're struggling with your own
(30:27):
pornography use and the BarnaStudy Commission, by Pure Desire
, would say you probably are,because there's a lot then that
is something you need to takebefore the Lord and work through
, because pornography inherentlyis a non-consensual domination
thing.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
It invites objectification because it does
reduce individuals made in theimage of God, to consumables.
Right, and that's one of thosekey pillars, or key foundational
elements to abuse.
It's not abuse necessarily inand of itself it can be, but
combined with power, right,impunity, subjugation, it
(31:08):
creates this perfect storm ofharm.
And I would say to any pastorsand ministry leaders listening
in as well you do have, we allhave everything we need for life
and godliness, so it's not likethe Bible's insufficient, but
you and I are, and so it's niceto have comparable conversations
(31:31):
to flesh out our practicaltheology.
What does it look like to havecertain theological discussions
in this setting and in thissetting and in this setting and
I'll commend to you and Tabby,you were there a couple of years
ago Pastor Ben Marshall didsome talks for us at PeaceWorks
Live and one of them was calledwhat Every Pastor Already Knows,
(31:52):
and it was, and I never wouldhave thought of this he just
talked about soteriology andecclesiology and all these
different theological terms andapplied them to abuse.
And it was so beautiful to me tobe like oh yeah, you have
everything that you need, Ifwe'll just not be scared right,
afraid of being called woke orafraid of not being sufficient
and being able to handle theproblem, but addressing it with
(32:14):
what we already know and thengetting help from those in areas
where we don't know, and thenwe can get help practically.
Which I think is what makes ourpartnership work is my
willingness and our willingnessto cross over maybe the divide,
the non-existent divide, ofbeing an LPC versus being a
pastor, versus being a biblicalcounselor, and recognizing that
(32:37):
we're believers, first part ofthe body of Christ, fulfilling
different roles.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I always tell people we're going to hang out together
in heaven for like forever.
We should get along here onearth, which is super fun.
But I do think, when weunderstand the body analogy, the
metaphor that the Lord gives us, right, we all tend to think of
the hands, feet, but there arespleens and kidneys and a
(33:03):
million different parts of thebody.
And I have a role as a licensedcounselor.
You have a role as a pastor andbiblical counselor, and
biblical counselors who are notalso pastors have a role.
I know on my team I have abiblical counselor.
We're hoping to have morebecause we all have a role to
play and not all biblicalcounselors are take two verses
(33:23):
and call me in the morning anduntrauma informed and are going
to be sin detectors of theirclients.
Good biblical counselingdoesn't actually look like that.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah, well said.
I think the caricatures that wetend to paint each other right,
that you know this group isunsophisticated and doesn't care
about the physical dimension,or this group over here is
theologically inept and doesn'tunderstand the scriptures, those
(33:54):
caricatures don't help anybody,right, because in the body of
Christ, what does help isunderstanding that as the
severity of a problem increases,so should the maturity of the
person responding.
And so we need mature believersin different perspectives,
different aspects, differentfields, to meet those needs when
(34:14):
they come.
And sure I get it.
I wouldn't want a biblicalcounselor who's immature in the
Lord.
I wouldn't want some22-year-old coming directly out
of one of our seminaries, youknow, speaking into some of the
problems that I work with.
I'd want them to learn and growand and and mature a little bit
.
And the same is true.
I wouldn't want an LPC whodoesn't know the word of God, or
(34:37):
maybe just came to know theLord, all of a sudden considered
themselves an expert intheology, like that's not how
this works and we just need to,I think, love and respect each
other and recognize theequipping skill, talent and
maturity that God's given us inthe church Maybe a little bit of
wisdom and actually get to knoweach other rather than just
assume things about each other.
(34:58):
That would help.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Wouldn't that be delightful, I feel like.
Also, what you just describedtoo, though, is like such an
invitation for discipleshipright For pastors to come
alongside LPCs and licensedcounselors, and also marriage
and family therapists and all ofthe licensed types like we can
talk about all those at someother point Also more mature
people in the Lord, to comealongside people who are newer
(35:21):
in their faith and encourage usto share information and work
together and learn from eachother.
I know that my very firstbatterer case for me was an
accident.
It was someone I was seeing forsomeone else, and then it came
out in the session after I'dbeen seeing this individual for
several years and went, oh no,and my first phone call was you,
(35:42):
because I could not findanother person to refer them out
to, and God kept saying no,it's you, you're going to do it
and I'm like oh God no, and so Icalled you and you were
gracious to me and walked withme through that case, and that's
honestly how I started my menof peace journey.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
That's how you got into it.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
It is and God's like yeah, this is the only way you
would have listened is if youhad just done this.
So I was so grateful, though,for that, because it was not my
wheelhouse at the time.
It's much more now, but itwasn't then, and if I didn't
have that discipleship, if Ididn't have your partnership in
that, I could have doneincredible damage and people
(36:24):
could have been deeply harmed orkilled, and so I think that's
where we all need each other.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Quick plug, maybe for men of peace and you can
correct me if I'm wrong I feellike maybe that process or
environment, let's say thecontext of men of peace being
able to work groups with apartner.
I believe that is the safest,best way to develop skill fast,
(36:53):
and it is much safer than justI've worked six cases of abuse,
one after the other.
I mean that's good and you'regoing to learn a lot and you
going to struggle a lot andyou're gonna make a lot of
mistakes.
But actually working with apartner, with a group of eight
guys or six guys, gives you thecomfort of having somebody
(37:15):
another set of eyes on it and italso allows you to hear
multiple stories at once anddevelop a little bit of skill in
your interaction.
That's my take on it.
I think the Lord brought meinto intervention so that I
could gain skill and experienceat a more rapid rate than I
would have if I put out ashingle and just met an abusive
person.
An abusive person, an abusiveperson.
Instead, I was working withdozens at a time.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I agree completely.
This actually, in my practice,is one of the things that I have
required of my team in variousways.
So those who are willing, Idon't force anyone into
perpetrator work, because we allhave our own stories.
And some folks it's not theirthing, but for the interns
particularly that I end uphaving, I've had them like be
part of the co-facilitation of amen of peace type group, where
(38:01):
they're more observers and it'smyself and another a man doing
the main co-facilitation, and Ihave seen that bear such fruit,
not only in their ability to nowbe co-facilitators in those
groups but also in theirindividual work with
perpetrators.
On my team we have 11practitioners and nine of us are
(38:24):
trained in men of peace, whichis stunning.
And even though not everyoneworks with perpetrators, the
understanding of the work is sohelpful to victim care.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I think it helps with victim care too.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
It really does and to say like no, we do understand
that this is intentional, andall the things that we know from
knowing how to do perpetratorwork can really not only bear
weight on the perpetrators thatwe see, but also on the victims
to help them stay safe and sethealthy boundaries and see
things rightly.
So those are all such goodthings, and if we weren't
collaborative, if we weren't ateam, I don't know how this
(39:00):
would work.
I would be very fearful, as atherapist that specializes in
the deep end of the pond we aredeep trauma that I would miss
something essential and end upputting people at risk.
And our first ethic in casepeople don't know is do no harm.
And I think that's probablysame on the biblical counselor
side.
Maybe it's said differently,but for us it's a big deal not
(39:21):
to mess this up.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
So I think, I think you would have been okay, tabby,
working at a slower pace andcase by case.
And everybody who does thatmakes mistakes.
Actually, everyone who doesintervention makes mistakes.
There's no perfect intervention.
That has ever happened in thehistory of interventions.
So I think you would have beenokay working case by case, but I
(39:45):
do think what men of peace andwhat facilitated groups do is,
like that work a little bit onsteroids, and it gives you that
confidence that you need andthat psychoeducational response,
takes it a bit out of thetherapeutic world and it puts it
into a collaborative, which issomething that abusive
individuals need.
(40:06):
They need to be confronted andbe held accountable but then
also be invited into the work,not have the work done for them.
And sometimes a therapeuticenvironment tempts them to
collude and try to find ways tocontrol, and a group is less
likely for them to gain control.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
I will say it not only tempts them, it invites
them if you don't know whatyou're doing, because the way
that we're trained as therapistsis unconditional positive
regard right, we were trained tosee the good.
Now, as a therapist, thatdoesn't mean that we don't
confront the hard things, thedestructive things.
We do all of that, but it's adifferent paradigm.
And when you're doing abusework, it is upside down.
(40:46):
Your client is not in the room,and that is a vital
understanding of the work,because anything you say or do
goes home man.
And so if you are not mindfulof this, you are sending someone
destructive home with a sword,and that is highly unwise and
also really messes up the do noharm thing, because not only is
(41:08):
it not good for the victim, butit's not good for the
perpetrator.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Exactly Also someone made in the image of God, who
needs the truth desperatelyright in order to change.
Granted, our primary clientagain is the victim and maybe
the children, but he needs theabusive individual, needs heart
change dramatically and in themost desperate way for the
(41:33):
victim, but then also for theirfuture.
Way for the victim, but thenalso for their future Right and
even consequently, theirrelationship with God, because
they stand in a prettysignificantly dangerous place in
their relationship with theLord.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
You know, I always think of the sheep and goats.
You know, lord, lord, didn't Ido X, y, z for you, and God's
like you did a bunch of stuffand I don't know who you are,
and that terrifies me personally, like I don't understand how
people don't have fear of theLord, cause I have a lot.
I do not want to stand on thewrong side of the living God.
(42:07):
I will be honest, and so when Ilook at these guys and they're
like I'm fine, I'm like you arenot fine.
I'm worried about you.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Well, I know this will be a good way to start
landing the plane.
I think is the number of timesI can't count the number of
times I've said to guys cause itdoes get hard and you really
care because you want thischange to happen.
But when I've had to have thoseconversations, usually
privately, during a check-in, Icannot care more about this than
you do.
Like brother, I have carriedwater for about five weeks now.
(42:39):
It's time to switch places.
I cannot care more about yoursanctification than you do.
You have got to take thisseriously and that's those
rubber, meet the road, fish orcut bait conversations Going
back to our struggle in ministry.
I think those are the hard onesfor pastors to have.
Yeah, conversations going backto our struggle in ministry.
I think those are the hard onesfor pastors to have, because we
(42:59):
want to show grace and webelieve that repentance is
possible, and I believe allthose things too.
But for the sake of the victimand for the sake of this
person's heart, there are timesthat you got to care more than I
do.
This is your soul.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
And I think in the church in general and I think
this would just be my final callfor the people listening,
especially if they're ministryleaders it's going to take
longer than you want and it'sgoing to be way messier, and you
are going to have to pray awhole lot more than you already
do, which might be a lot, andyou just have to take the
(43:33):
timelines off.
Man, we're looking at eternity,not a six month program, and
when we look at it that way, Ithink that gives us a little
more stamina.
And I know that there areprobably pastors listening whose
hearts are racing becausethey're like I have a church of
like 25 people and oh mygoodness.
But also, this is why partnersare great, because then you
(43:55):
don't carry the load alone,right, we lift each other's arms
and we come alongside and wealso bang our heads against the
wall when it's frustrating, youknow, and all of those things,
because we're willing to get inthe Bible with the seed has to
go into the ground and it has todie in order to grow.
(44:20):
And we are called to take upour cross, we are called to
crucify our flesh.
That is what the Holy Spirit isdoing, and if we're doing that.
Those are not pretty, those arenot clean, those are not tied
up with a bow metaphors.
They are a hot mess and weshould have a little dirt and
some tears for us.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
They are a hot mess and we should have a little dirt
and some tears, true stories,and that's what this work is.
It's messy, but I don't know,tabby, I wouldn't trade it, like
for all the hardship it pales,I tell people because people
recognize how difficult the workis, and they'll ask me like how
do you do it?
And I'm like as hard as the workis, sometimes it pales in
comparison to what just onevictim is experiencing on a
regular basis and I'm like ashard as the work is sometimes it
pales in comparison to whatjust one victim is experiencing
on a regular basis, and I wantto know Jesus in the fellowship
(45:01):
of his suffering and the powerof his resurrection, and so I
believe not only in this kind ofsolidarity aspect but also in
that resurrection power, thatthere's power for victims to
experience freedom and hope andthere's power for perpetrators
to experience change, and Ithink that keeps us motivated to
(45:21):
keep writing books and keepdoing conferences and keep
training people and keep meetingwith folks.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Absolutely so.
I would like to give you aminute here as we end this.
I want you to talk aboutPeaceWorks PeaceWorks University
, because it is awesome.
I've been a part of that for Idon't know how many years at
this point, it's been a while.
It's been a hot minute, I think, like almost since pretty close
to the very beginning actually,and I'd love you to tell us
about your books as well.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Yeah, so I have a couple books out there the Heart
of Domestic Abuse GospelSolutions for Men who Use
Violence and Control in the Home.
That was my first book and thatis an overview of my
intervention process from abiblical perspective.
The second is collaborative,where I was the general editor,
called Caring for FamiliesCaught in Domestic Abuse.
(46:10):
That's from New Growth Press.
Peaceworks is the ministry nameand it was actually I don't know
if you even know this Tabbywhen I was dreaming about what
to do next.
Peaceworks was really birthedout of this idea of a factory
mindset and it's got three gearsas the logo and I thought, okay
(46:31):
, what would it look like tohave this manufacturing feel of
working for peace?
And so that's what PeaceWorksis, this factory of peace that
we wanted to develop, and out ofthat we run a couple different
things.
The PeaceWorks podcast theworld's worst podcast drops
every Tuesday morning at 6 am onall the platforms.
Peaceworks University is ouronline membership community, of
(46:53):
which Tabby is a part.
It's about 200 helpers fromaround the country, around the
world, really that get resources.
We have a huge vault ofresources probably the biggest
vault of resources out there onthe topic of dealing with
domestic abuse from agospel-centered perspective.
Men of Peace menofpeaceorgChrisMolesorg is my main site.
Menofpeaceorg deals with theMen of Peace digital course and
(47:16):
Men of Peace programming.
And then, lastly, is PeaceWorksLive.
That's our annual conference.
September 11th through the 13th2025 is this year's conference
in Winfield, west Virginia.
We have limited seating.
We always limit the number offolks.
I think this year the ceilingis 250.
We got two tracks stewardingsurvivor stories featuring
(47:37):
Melissa Affolter.
Elise Fitzpatrick and RachelDenhollander will be our primary
speakers, and then the Men ofPeace Facilitator track, with
myself and Greg Wilson trainingon men of peace, and our worship
leader once again is AdamWestlake, who is amazing.
And I think that's all theplugs.
Plug, plug, plug, plug, plug.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
I love them all.
If you're a pastor or aministry leader listening to
this and you're like we don'thave a program, oh gosh.
The collaborative book, theCaring for Families Caught in
Domestic Abuse really helpfulbecause it really does cross,
like, all the different areasthat you need and it really is
an example of teamwork, makesthe dream work, as it were, in
this work, and so I woulddefinitely commend that book to
(48:19):
you.
If you're just starting out,the Heart of Domestic Abuse is
incredibly helpful.
In fact that is how I got one ofmy employees.
He was an intern candidate atthe time and I said what do you
understand about domestic abuseand coercive control?
And he said well, I've read theHeart of Domestic Abuse by
Chris Moles and I was likeyou're hired, Welcome aboard.
And I've trained him since thenand it's been fabulous.
(48:41):
So you know, the PeaceWorksresources that are out there
through the chrismolesorg is sohelpful and even if you're not
sure you want to do perpetratorwork, I very much encourage you
come to a PeaceWorks Live, gothrough the Men of Peace track,
because it is so incrediblyhelpful in the understanding of
(49:02):
things and the understanding ofhow perpetrators in some ways
even think.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
If nothing else, you will love the community 100%.
The PeaceWorks community is thebest, one of the best tribes
out there, and we have a greattime.
And it is a healing weekend,just a respite for all of us to
see each other's faces and hearfrom like-minded people what the
Lord's doing.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Absolutely, chris.
Thank you so much for hangingout with me.
We are so grateful that you arehere, and I will have all of
your links and information inthe show notes as well, so folks
can find you.
And just thank you for being agood brother.
I know so many of the peoplethat listen to the hey Tabby
podcast are survivors, and itcan be so hard, when your church
(49:45):
has betrayed you, when yourspouse has betrayed you, to
believe that there are any goodmen on this earth.
And I stand in testament,because I have wonderful
brothers like you, that thereare.
And so thank you for being agood brother.
Thank you for letting thegospel bear weight on your life
so that it can bear weight onthe lives of others.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Thank you, tabby.
It's been a real pleasure to bewith you and hopefully we'll
get more guests saying hey,tabby, at the beginning.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
That's going to be fun.
I'm going to try that.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
I kind of feel like if I could say this on the
podcast, we'll have listenerswriting in Send your cards and
letters.
I feel like the intro shouldjust be somebody shouting hurt.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
You never know what could happen.
Well, thank you again, Chris.
You are a delight and I'm soglad that you were here.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
God bless you, buddy.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud, withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof hey Tabby.
I am joined by one of myfavorite brothers in Christ and
(00:44):
my good friend, Chris Moles.
And Chris, I am going to inviteyou to introduce yourself to
our audience.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, hey, tabby, it's good to be a podcast buddy.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
You're the first person to do that.
That was amazing.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Really, I thought that was supposed to be the
gimmick.
No, but we should start.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I'm going to telegraph that to other guests.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yes, please.
Well, friends, hey to you too.
My name is Chris Moles.
I'm a pastor, biblicalcounselor, I am an ordained
minister and have worked in thefield of domestic abuse
intervention and prevention fornearly 20 years now.
Field of domestic abuseintervention and prevention for
(01:27):
nearly 20 years now.
By God's grace, I have beenable to work thousands of case
hours with primarily men who areabusive and try to share some
of that wisdom with the churchfamily at large and the
counseling community as well.
And really thankful to be partof Tabby's tribe and be on the
hey, tabby podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I'm really excited to have you here, and you are the
author of a couple of books, andwe'll talk about those near the
end and let folks know where toget them as well.
Today, we're going to talk aboutfor lack of a better way to put
it perpetrator intervention,batter intervention, invitation
to repentance for those who aredestructive, and this is
(02:08):
something I see you doespecially well.
I have been through the men ofpeace training at this point, I
don't know how many times I keepgoing because I love it, and
also I don't think you can hearit too much, and that is one
thing I will say just out of thegate.
If you have not been trained inmen of peace from a faith-based
perpetrator interventionperspective, I commend it highly
(02:29):
because you will learn so much.
Even if you're an advocate whodoes not necessarily want to
work with that population, I dothink you need to understand it
because it makes you a betteradvocate.
And so tell me, chris, whatmade you want to move toward
that invitational and alsohighly accountability related
intervention process for peoplewho are destructive men in
(02:51):
particular, who are destructive.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I think it was providential.
I would be lying if I had saidthat I had any type of plan or
structure or desire to get intothis work.
Structure or desire to get intothis work.
I was a youth pastor struggling, then a church planter,
struggling financially, and hadfound work part-time in my early
(03:14):
ministry career in criminalcorrections as an educator, and
so I was working for a localcorrections agency in behavioral
health and it was just kind oflike being in a small place,
small town.
I was a warm body who could putsentences together and really
didn't feel like I was all thatequipped.
(03:34):
But found a niche there anddiscovered that I was pretty
skilled as a teacher and was notintimidated by the population
which helps.
Worked primarily with drugoffenders and then began working
as a batterer interventiongroup facilitator If anyone's
familiar with Emerge, amends,duluth the big names in the
(03:57):
secular community and it's justpsychoeducational facilitated
groups a lot of timesfunctioning in the criminal
justice system or in behavioralhealth or community-based
agencies was trained in thatprocess, began working with men
and I did that in the criminalcorrections world for 17 years I
(04:20):
think, and it changed my lifeand really what was most
interesting to me and thisshould answer your question, I
hope was being a biblicalcounselor and being a pastor and
watching how, when we broughtin principles of worldview
development and I think GregWilson and Jeremy Pierre did the
best job of unpacking this intheir book when Home Hurts that
(04:43):
abuse is not just corruptedbehavior, it's Hurts, that abuse
is not just corrupted behavior,it's corrupted perception.
So it's not just how we act buthow we see the world, and I
would say that from a greatcommandment perspective in my
work, right that we're to loveGod, love others and have a
proper understanding of who weare, and it gets completely
distorted in abuse work andamong abusers.
But what I found waspsychoeducation was addressing
(05:07):
the behavior and the worldview,but we were restricted.
We were told not to establishan alternative worldview.
The thought was it's going tocome naturally out of the
individuals, which does nothappen theologically.
So my partner and I, knowingthis as Christians, we began to
address the heart and within amatter of a few years we had the
lowest recidivism rate in thestate.
(05:29):
We were being asked to helpwrite curriculum.
People were interviewing us forthe DOJ about our groups and it
really dawned on me that, ok,if just scriptural principles
will make that big of adifference in a secular model.
What would it look like if wewent full blown with a biblical
alternative?
(05:49):
What would that look like ifthe church got a hold of this
and the Lord just completelyused that thought to birth my
first book, and then theopportunities to travel and
speak, and then Men of Peace, asyou referenced, which is our
digital course, and subsequentother products and pilot groups
that we've seen around thecountry?
Speaker 1 (06:09):
That's awesome and it's always interesting to me.
Psychological research isreally helpful when you don't
look at what they think.
The ideology is Right.
Right, because there can begreat observational research
where you can go.
I see this happening.
Yeah, but the why reallymatters.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I think that's the big hang up with my world, tabby
, and you've seen this too, andI know there's been way too much
conflict over the Duluth powerand control wheels.
I was in the Duluth model.
I know full well that DAIP,that's the Duluth Abuse
Intervention Project thatphilosophically they attribute a
lot of their work to earlycritical theorists, like that
(06:47):
didn't shock me and it didn'tintimidate me, because the power
and control wheel was createdin interviews with 200 victims
of domestic abuse.
So the rubric, the lens thatinspired the work was based in
observation, the philosophyright, we're all going to bring
our own thing to the table, andso when I saw the observational
(07:08):
work, I wanted to bring biblicaltruth to the table and I think
it's effective.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I think it's very effective.
I know that as a co-facilitatorof what is essentially a men of
peace group under a differentname that we have seen it be
effective.
It's going to sift out peopleone way or another, right.
We are going to see the peoplewho are hard in heart and who
have no desire to change becausethey do not want to give up the
power and control the way theysee the world is.
(07:33):
You are my property, and thisis what I tell people all the
time.
Abusive individuals who aredestructive people see you as
basically a couch that can talk,make sandwiches and do other
things.
You are property, and that isthe fundamental bottom line,
because it's entitlement andpride and the same spirit that
Satan had when he said I willsit on the throne and be like
(07:54):
the most high, which isterrifying.
And so I think bringing thatbiblical truth to it and saying
we want to invite you tosomething different is so
powerful to it and saying wewant to invite you to something
different is so powerful.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, Well, that's really the theological
underpinning of that, which justhaving this conversation I
think is helpful for listenersto hear that we're taking things
that the world's observing, andthen we're recognizing that
scripture has been talking aboutthis for a long time.
Like you, you just describedthe heart of pride.
Right, that's evident in almostevery destructive pattern in
Scripture that we have a remedyto, which is the heart, the mind
of Christ.
(08:29):
We talk about it in Philippians2.
Well, we've seen that in theresearch as well.
I think it was Ellen Pence whofirst talked about abuse, every
abuse relationship havingdestructive hierarchy,
objectification, forcedsubmission and impunity.
Well, then we look at biblicalnarratives, and I think you've
heard me teach on 2 Samuel,where we've used that in King
(08:50):
David's life.
The same observable patternsare there.
It's not like we're makingthings up, we're seeing this
happen, and then the Biblereiterates that we saw it happen
in ancient times.
We see it happen in the humanheart.
People are broken and fragileand that depravity and fragility
operate in this really uniqueway, and abusers are not exempt
(09:11):
to that.
In their own fragility anddepravity they're doing
incredibly wicked things thatneed to be addressed.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Absolutely and my observation is sadly a very few
percentage that desire and willattempt to change right, it will
really surrender to the HolySpirit and let the word of God
and the weight of Christ bearfruit in their life.
Frankly.
But for the men that I seeeking towards safety is kind of
(09:40):
how it feels, like they're justsliding along slow.
I've seen them have to reckonwith grief and past trauma and
all of those things, and you andI both know addiction and
trauma are not causative butthey are correlative so they
often happen together.
But there's lots of people whoexperience both and never abuse
anyone, but it doesn't negatethat they are also there at
(10:03):
times for people.
But once you get thataccountability and they're going
, oh, I am the problem.
You know, in the immortal wordsof Taylor Swift, hi, it's me.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I'm the problem.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yes, you know.
But they can start going I needto do this different, yeah and
slide themselves with the Lordalong a little bit, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
We're told that it's God's kindness that leads us to
repentance, and so if we'remotivated to change right, we
then have to experience God forwho he is, because this is not
and what I mean by that Tabby iseveryone changes.
It's just to what degree youchange and in what direction you
(10:44):
change right.
So when pressure is applied,abusive individuals will
sometimes become more obstinate,sometimes they'll become more
manipulative or they'll behavebetter, and then sometimes
transformations there, thetransformative pieces we're
saying, come through theconviction and power of the Holy
Spirit.
And yes, consequences canprompt us to pursue change, a
(11:06):
desperation can prompt us, butreally, without the Lord's
kindness, that change is notgoing to be lasting and it's not
going to be powerful.
I'll settle for safe people, butI really want to see sanctified
people.
Now, certainly, I'm working forvictim safety.
So if a guy makes necessarychanges and she's okay with that
(11:28):
, I'll be okay with that.
But I really want to seetransformation that happens in
the heart and, like you say,it's rare but it's a work of the
spirit and when it does happen,it's one of the most miraculous
and reaffirming things aboutthe gospel in my life.
It's like yes, the gospel istrue and when we sing that song
(11:48):
that it's the vilest and thepoor.
That's the reality for me.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
When to see an abusive person turn in
repentance and change, andlasting change, it's just
evidence of how wonderful andmighty the gospel really is
Absolutely, and I want to saythis explicitly, just because
you and I both know this gets alittle tricky for people Just
because someone changes does notmean the marriage will survive.
Sometimes things are far toobroken for reconciliation, and
(12:13):
safety actually means that thatis not reconciled, and so even
if someone eventually doeschange, that may not and
oftentimes, because things areso broken, cannot save the
relationship.
So I just want to sayexplicitly, because I think if
someone's listening going, oh,but wait for God, wait for God.
You know, like how long do youwant someone to live in
(12:34):
destruction on a hope?
You know that doesn't seem likeJesus at all.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Well, you know, a couple of things come to mind.
One thing I tell guys quite abit is that and we'll grieve
this when the time comes, butunderstand that you may have
forfeited certain aspects ofyour life that are now outside
of your control.
You've tried to control thingsso much that you've actually
pushed them away, and so for theguys that I've worked with over
(13:00):
the years, sometimes that meansthey forfeited their very
freedom, right, because they'rein jail or they're going to be
under some kind of probation fora long period of time.
Maybe they forfeited their work, but sometimes that means they
forfeited their family and thereis no rebuilding.
And a lot of that has to dowith the extent of the abuse.
(13:21):
So I find that guys that havereally gone up the ladder to a
high degree, it's really hard tostep back down and rebuild that
trust.
When you have sexually assaultedsomeone, physically assaulted
them.
Long-term emotional andpsychological abuse, decades of
harm, contempt and disdain arevery hard to walk back.
But then also it's the capacityof the individuals.
(13:43):
So there's just no way ofknowing what the marriage or the
relationship will look likeuntil we've done the hard work,
what we call them paralleltracks of comfort for the victim
, healing work and alsoconfrontation, accountability
for the perpetrator.
We want to do that work first,and then we'll talk about
(14:04):
reconciliation at the end andwhat that looks like, and you've
heard me say probably a hundredtimes restoration and
reconciliation to God, and thenwe'll worry about those earthly
relationships, because mostabusive individuals, even that,
claim the name of Jesus.
They need a salvific encounterwith the Lord or they need a
(14:26):
recommitment to the Lord,depending on your theological
standpoint, more desperate thanthey need restored to marriage
or certainly restored toministry.
They really need to focus ontheir relationship with Jesus
and get that right, because theacts that they're perpetrating
are definitively anti-Christ.
They are contradicting the workand mission of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Absolutely, they most definitely are.
In fact, if we look atGalatians 5, it's that first set
of the fruits of the flesh thatlead to death and destruction
and whatnot that we are oftenseeing.
Yet they're saying I believe inJesus, and if that's true and
the Holy Spirit is bearingweight on your life, then you
should be at the end ofGalatians 5, not the beginning.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yes, and even if that's true so we come to the
end of Galatians 5 and you'renot full of the power and
presence of the Holy Spirit andyou are continuing to live in
the works of flesh, then thechurch has given instructions in
Galatians 6 of what our role is, which is as spiritual people
as the spiritually mature in thechurch.
We're supposed to call you toaccount.
If someone is still burdenedand overwhelmed by habitual sin,
you, who are spiritual, restoresuch a one with gentleness, and
(15:33):
God will not be mocked.
A man will reap what he sows,which is really honestly, the
biblical framework for what wedo Tabby in confrontational
ministry is we try to couch thisreally hard work of confronting
deep entrenched ugly, gross sin, with gentleness and
(15:53):
winsomeness, because we knowthat God is in charge of the
consequences.
And it's like I used to say tomy clients and then I'll throw
it back to you I used to say tomy clients in the correction
side when they would try toplead their case and try to do
classroom court, which I'm likewe don't do classroom court,
like I'm called to educate.
You've already been judged.
(16:14):
I'm not here to judge, like I'mreally not going to bash your
character, but you've alreadybeen judged and that sentence
was to come to this class andwith Christians and church
members and people who claim tobe Christians who are now coming
to me for help with the abusethey perpetrated against their
partner, you already stand underjudgment.
That's the case for sin.
I want to restore you to theLord.
(16:36):
I want less than theconsequences, but I will be
winsome and gentle.
My job is not to be a jerk,because I think the judgment
that you're standing under is alot harsher than anything I
could wield and I certainly wantto invite you to repentance,
not push you away from it and Ithink that's something we hear a
lot in the church is what weneed to punish and we need to be
punitive, and really that's whyGod gave us the government
(17:00):
according to Romans 13.
But for us, as much as itdepends upon us, we're going to
live at peace with everyone andwe're going to overcome evil
with good, and sometimes I thinkwe're going to overwhelm evil
people with the goodness of God.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I would definitely agree and I'd say there's a
middle path here.
That from a practicalitystandpoint because I can see
some pastors going oh well, wehave to be winsome and gentle
and that means they get to cometo third service when the victim
goes to first service, and I'mlike that actually isn't
kindness, that's niceness andthose are not the same word.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yep, that's Ephesians , chapter four, right, I think
I'm getting my addresses correct.
Verse 31, paul gives these sixexpressions of anger that are
sinful rage, malice, slander, soon and then three expressions
of anger that are righteouskindness, compassion and
forgiveness.
Just as in Christ, god forgaveyou.
I bring that up because inresponses to abuse, we as
(17:56):
pastors, we should operate in arighteous indignation, a
righteous anger, and so my roleis really not to harm this
individual.
I want to help them, but thatrequires kindness, and that
kindness is to speak the truthin love and to allow
consequences to take effect.
I'm supposed to becompassionate.
I really do pity the situationthat he's put himself in a
(18:17):
really hard place.
I'm not going to lessen that,I'm going to highlight that.
And then I want to promoteforgiveness, which is the same
way that God forgave me.
I need to repent.
I need him to repent in orderto make things right.
So I would agree with you.
I think sometimes we lean intoniceness and we put victims in
really difficult situations,like passing him in the hallway
(18:40):
or even defying court orders.
We've had victims who soughtthe help of civil authorities
and had no contact orders, andthe church is trying to navigate
the opportunity for them to goto the same church for worship.
I'm like A it violates thecourt order.
B how is anyone going tocomfortably worship with their
(19:01):
abuser in the room or in thebuilding?
Find a partner church, findanother pastor, work it out.
If they want to worship, thenworship should be more important
to them than being in thepresence of their spouse.
Right, so it's.
You want to worship?
Go worship over at BrotherJohn's Presbyterian Church or
Sister Sally's PentecostalChurch.
Don't come here knowing thatit's going to put your victim in
(19:26):
a difficult situation.
And really, last point, awilling heart does that.
A willful heart resists that.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Exactly.
And there's also this reallyfun thing called the internet
that you can watch the livestream on a Sunday and sit at
home and make your own pancakes.
And if you are really trulycaring about the victim and you
are the perpetrator and you'relike I really do want to change,
I see the error of my ways,then your butt is sitting at
home, you are doing whatever ittakes to prove that you can
(19:57):
adhere to a boundary, and I knowthat in my work with
perpetrators I have seen theones that absolutely don't do
that.
They're like well, I don'tunderstand, like how long is it
going to take?
And it's like oh, my friend,it's going to take much longer
than you'd like.
And that makes me think of, Imean, galatians 6.1, which is do
not grow weary of doing good,for in due time you shall reap a
harvest.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Right.
So the idea that resistance isviewed as an attack is a big
deal with perpetrators, becauseperpetrators often feel like
they're victims right, so theysee boundaries as an attack.
And then the second is thewillful willing that I just said
, actually understanding thatyou are no longer in control
(20:41):
right and resting in thatcontrol right and resting in
that.
And I would say, when I've hadguys over the years Tabby who
have finally let go of that andthey're like I caused this, like
I created this mess, and so Ineed to be humble enough to
respond to her requests orrespect those boundaries, I feel
(21:02):
like man, we're halfway homenow, like we've rounded second
at this point, because we'vespent weeks upon weeks, upon
weeks answering questions likewell, when can we get back
together in the home, and whencan we start marriage counseling
, and when will this happen?
And haven't I done enough?
And I've done everything youguys have asked me to do, and
I'm like you're asking all thewrong questions, bro, like
you're asking all the wrongthings.
(21:24):
And when that hearttransformation begins to happen,
and when repentance reallybegins to be embraced, that's
when we see what our friend Gregcalls ownership.
I've seen my sin, now I'mowning my sin, and now I'm
walking into this hatred of mysin.
I'm beginning to see my sin,the way God does, right.
My sin is not an obstacle to megetting what I want.
So I've got to sin better orsin differently.
(21:46):
My sin has actually separatedme from a holy God and it's put
me in a desperate situation andI need repentance, forgiveness,
grace and mercy, and then I needto live that type of life.
That's good stuff That'llpreach.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Absolutely For sure, and I think there's such a
grasping at that control becauseit has been what they have
always done and it's worked forthem.
I also think it might be veryhelpful for pastors to
understand, especially ifthey're not familiar with victim
care.
You may not see evidence ofphysical abuse, but this is my
(22:23):
contention as a therapist who isa neuroscience geek All abuse,
all coercive control, isphysical abuse because unless
you can take your brain andstick it outside your body, in a
jar that is inside your bodyand it's dumping out
neurochemicals that are causingall kinds of shenanigans like
inflammation, autoimmune disease, especially if it goes on every
(22:44):
long periods of time, and thisis what I have not heard very
many pastors ask about, and Ithink they should start if
they're going to do this workand really press in with people
and shepherd is what's happeningin the bedroom, because I
guarantee you, almost everyvictim I have ever worked with
has been sexually assaulted overand over and over for years.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, that's what I was getting ready to say.
I think A bringing up theautoimmune disorders.
That's been an interestingrealization, probably the last
what 10 years when we'veactually begun to see how
longstanding emotional what wecall longstanding emotional
abuse tends to affect usphysically, whether it's GI
issues or digestive issues.
But then this autoimmunecomponent, it's been really
(23:27):
fascinating.
The correlation between that.
It's similar to the correlationthat we're seeing in the abuser
world.
This is just nerd talk and I'llpivot with things like OCD
among abusers and how they'redeveloping certain behavioral
disorders, which is reallyinteresting, and it becomes a
control mechanism.
And then I think the second tothat that's been really
(23:49):
fascinating is that second pointyou bring up.
I was getting ready to say whenI have a pastor or a ministry
leader or even a counselor,especially biblical counselors,
who contact me and talk aboutsuspected emotional abuse, which
is a really tricky topic in theChristian world right now,
they'll say something like allwe see, all she's experiencing
(24:10):
is emotional abuse.
I'll say probably not.
The odds are really really goodthat if you start pulling the
rope you're going to find otheraspects of abuse.
And I always encourage them tostart with sexual coercion
because we have seen not 100% ofthe time, but the vast majority
of time.
If someone's experiencingridicule, coercion, threat, fear
(24:34):
, that is tied to thoseemotional categories, the odds
are really really good thatthat's presenting itself in the
bedroom.
And now you've got two pointson the map right A sexual
assault and emotional abuse.
And then you're like well, Iprobably got to pry in the money
.
Oh for sure, or I really need totalk to him safely, with the
(24:57):
advice and consent of the victimand a safety plan and all the
things.
But once I talked to him Ireally need to address the
minimization, denial and blame,because that's going to be
probably the first thing that hepresents with.
And now I've got three pointson my map and I'm like I'm
seeing a pattern and that's inthe abuse world.
That's the ticket right.
(25:17):
Once we establish a pattern,now we know what we're dealing
with and it reveals a lot morewhat's happening in the heart
and the mind.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Absolutely.
And for the pastors who might belistening to this and think I'm
sure it's not like that, I willtell you about a group of guys
that I was co-facilitating aperpetrator group, and we got to
sex week and me, being acertified sex addiction
therapist, that always getsvolleyed over to me.
I can't imagine why, and one ofthe things we were talking about
(25:46):
was consent and what is consentactually?
And the way that I defineconsent is it's either a hell
yes or a hell no, and there isno in between, frankly, but it's
an enthusiastic yes.
And I asked them have you everhad sex with your wife, done any
sexual behaviors, not justintercourse, because sex is more
than just intercourse withoutexplicit consent?
(26:08):
And I watched a whole group ofmen get much more pale and very
quiet, and so we asked them tothink about that.
Over the course of the weekthat was their homework, and the
next week they came back and Isaid how many of you have
engaged in sexual behavior withyour wife without explicit
consent?
And every guy in the room andand we had 11, put their hand up
(26:28):
and I said there is one wordfor what you have done and that
is rape, and that is somethingpastors don't lean into Right.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah, so consent, like especially in the sexual
abuse conversation, consent's amassive discussion.
I remember one time in a groupwe had broke up into smaller
groups because we had a largeclass at that time and I was
always the guy that got that oneLike I was the one that had to
facilitate the sexual coerciontheme and we had a guy asking
questions because he was reallyconfused and honestly, his
(27:04):
ignorance is not an excuse.
He was so confused and it wasone of the other clients that
said, bro, you, you are rapingher and it was like he was hit
with a brick in the face.
He really he really thoughtthat sexual expression in a
relationship was totallydependent upon him and his needs
(27:24):
were central.
It was so selfish andself-centered and we could go
into the whole contributiveconversation about his past
trauma, how he was affected as achild and all of that, but
nonetheless he was sinningagainst his partner in a
significant way that requiredanother guy to highlight it.
And I think part of that is wedon't talk about it in our
culture.
When we do talk about it, wetalk about it in really poor
(27:48):
terms and I was just speaking toour friend Greg about this
recently, because he and I aredoing a webinar on some of this.
Discussing some of the incelthings is feeding existing
misogyny, meaning it is anideological perspective that's
(28:10):
interpreting the world through acorrupted lens and really as
Christians we have a biblicallens that we should be seeing
the culture through.
So the culture's misogynisticin a lot of ways and the
pushback is usuallyinappropriate, like a lot of the
feminist pushback has deviatedso far that it's like well,
(28:30):
that's not healthy.
So there's a biblical worldviewthat we need to introduce guys
to in all of these topics.
But back to the original point,tabby, if I hear emotional
abuse and a pastor or a ministryleader calls me and that's all
they found, I highly encouragethem to start with sexual
coercion and then move aroundthe circle finding more, because
(28:52):
the odds are dollars to donuts,there's probably sexual
coercion happening.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Absolutely, and I think this is a place where I
would invite pastors to lean inin a couple of ways.
One look at your own theologyon male-female relationships and
marital sexual relationships,because there can be some real
distortion there.
You know her, yes, was not atthe altar, that is not what 1
Corinthians 7 says.
(29:17):
It's actually an equalizer,because in that culture women
didn't have the right to say noand so when Paul says, the
inspiration of the spirit hisbody's also yours.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Exactly yeah, that never existed before.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Exactly.
And so I think, to mesanctification is being willing
to let the word bear weight andthe Holy Spirit bear weight on
what I believe.
And one of the things I seejust doing this work, on both
the perpetrator and the victimside, is that sometimes pastors
don't realize the water theyswim in and what they've been
(29:54):
drinking.
And it reminds me of that oldadage that we hear a lot of the
two younger fish are swimmingalong and the older fish swims
by and goes how's the water?
And they go what water, what's?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
water, because they don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
And so, for pastors, I would just invite you, are you
like towing the system line?
Whatever system you're in,whatever denomination you're in,
are you really letting the HolySpirit bear weight on your soul
for sanctification?
And then what?
I'm just going to say this ifyou're struggling with your own
(30:27):
pornography use and the BarnaStudy Commission, by Pure Desire
, would say you probably are,because there's a lot then that
is something you need to takebefore the Lord and work through
, because pornography inherentlyis a non-consensual domination
thing.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
It invites objectification because it does
reduce individuals made in theimage of God, to consumables.
Right, and that's one of thosekey pillars, or key foundational
elements to abuse.
It's not abuse necessarily inand of itself it can be, but
combined with power, right,impunity, subjugation, it
(31:08):
creates this perfect storm ofharm.
And I would say to any pastorsand ministry leaders listening
in as well you do have, we allhave everything we need for life
and godliness, so it's not likethe Bible's insufficient, but
you and I are, and so it's niceto have comparable conversations
(31:31):
to flesh out our practicaltheology.
What does it look like to havecertain theological discussions
in this setting and in thissetting and in this setting and
I'll commend to you and Tabby,you were there a couple of years
ago Pastor Ben Marshall didsome talks for us at PeaceWorks
Live and one of them was calledwhat Every Pastor Already Knows,
(31:52):
and it was, and I never wouldhave thought of this he just
talked about soteriology andecclesiology and all these
different theological terms andapplied them to abuse.
And it was so beautiful to me tobe like oh yeah, you have
everything that you need, Ifwe'll just not be scared right,
afraid of being called woke orafraid of not being sufficient
and being able to handle theproblem, but addressing it with
(32:14):
what we already know and thengetting help from those in areas
where we don't know, and thenwe can get help practically.
Which I think is what makes ourpartnership work is my
willingness and our willingnessto cross over maybe the divide,
the non-existent divide, ofbeing an LPC versus being a
pastor, versus being a biblicalcounselor, and recognizing that
(32:37):
we're believers, first part ofthe body of Christ, fulfilling
different roles.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I always tell people we're going to hang out together
in heaven for like forever.
We should get along here onearth, which is super fun.
But I do think, when weunderstand the body analogy, the
metaphor that the Lord gives us, right, we all tend to think of
the hands, feet, but there arespleens and kidneys and a
(33:03):
million different parts of thebody.
And I have a role as a licensedcounselor.
You have a role as a pastor andbiblical counselor, and
biblical counselors who are notalso pastors have a role.
I know on my team I have abiblical counselor.
We're hoping to have morebecause we all have a role to
play and not all biblicalcounselors are take two verses
(33:23):
and call me in the morning anduntrauma informed and are going
to be sin detectors of theirclients.
Good biblical counselingdoesn't actually look like that.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah, well said.
I think the caricatures that wetend to paint each other right,
that you know this group isunsophisticated and doesn't care
about the physical dimension,or this group over here is
theologically inept and doesn'tunderstand the scriptures, those
(33:54):
caricatures don't help anybody,right, because in the body of
Christ, what does help isunderstanding that as the
severity of a problem increases,so should the maturity of the
person responding.
And so we need mature believersin different perspectives,
different aspects, differentfields, to meet those needs when
(34:14):
they come.
And sure I get it.
I wouldn't want a biblicalcounselor who's immature in the
Lord.
I wouldn't want some22-year-old coming directly out
of one of our seminaries, youknow, speaking into some of the
problems that I work with.
I'd want them to learn and growand and and mature a little bit
.
And the same is true.
I wouldn't want an LPC whodoesn't know the word of God, or
(34:37):
maybe just came to know theLord, all of a sudden considered
themselves an expert intheology, like that's not how
this works and we just need to,I think, love and respect each
other and recognize theequipping skill, talent and
maturity that God's given us inthe church Maybe a little bit of
wisdom and actually get to knoweach other rather than just
assume things about each other.
(34:58):
That would help.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Wouldn't that be delightful, I feel like.
Also, what you just describedtoo, though, is like such an
invitation for discipleshipright For pastors to come
alongside LPCs and licensedcounselors, and also marriage
and family therapists and all ofthe licensed types like we can
talk about all those at someother point Also more mature
people in the Lord, to comealongside people who are newer
(35:21):
in their faith and encourage usto share information and work
together and learn from eachother.
I know that my very firstbatterer case for me was an
accident.
It was someone I was seeing forsomeone else, and then it came
out in the session after I'dbeen seeing this individual for
several years and went, oh no,and my first phone call was you,
(35:42):
because I could not findanother person to refer them out
to, and God kept saying no,it's you, you're going to do it
and I'm like oh God no, and so Icalled you and you were
gracious to me and walked withme through that case, and that's
honestly how I started my menof peace journey.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
That's how you got into it.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
It is and God's like yeah, this is the only way you
would have listened is if youhad just done this.
So I was so grateful, though,for that, because it was not my
wheelhouse at the time.
It's much more now, but itwasn't then, and if I didn't
have that discipleship, if Ididn't have your partnership in
that, I could have doneincredible damage and people
(36:24):
could have been deeply harmed orkilled, and so I think that's
where we all need each other.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Quick plug, maybe for men of peace and you can
correct me if I'm wrong I feellike maybe that process or
environment, let's say thecontext of men of peace being
able to work groups with apartner.
I believe that is the safest,best way to develop skill fast,
(36:53):
and it is much safer than justI've worked six cases of abuse,
one after the other.
I mean that's good and you'regoing to learn a lot and you
going to struggle a lot andyou're gonna make a lot of
mistakes.
But actually working with apartner, with a group of eight
guys or six guys, gives you thecomfort of having somebody
(37:15):
another set of eyes on it and italso allows you to hear
multiple stories at once anddevelop a little bit of skill in
your interaction.
That's my take on it.
I think the Lord brought meinto intervention so that I
could gain skill and experienceat a more rapid rate than I
would have if I put out ashingle and just met an abusive
person.
An abusive person, an abusiveperson.
Instead, I was working withdozens at a time.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I agree completely.
This actually, in my practice,is one of the things that I have
required of my team in variousways.
So those who are willing, Idon't force anyone into
perpetrator work, because we allhave our own stories.
And some folks it's not theirthing, but for the interns
particularly that I end uphaving, I've had them like be
part of the co-facilitation of amen of peace type group, where
(38:01):
they're more observers and it'smyself and another a man doing
the main co-facilitation, and Ihave seen that bear such fruit,
not only in their ability to nowbe co-facilitators in those
groups but also in theirindividual work with
perpetrators.
On my team we have 11practitioners and nine of us are
(38:24):
trained in men of peace, whichis stunning.
And even though not everyoneworks with perpetrators, the
understanding of the work is sohelpful to victim care.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I think it helps with victim care too.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
It really does and to say like no, we do understand
that this is intentional, andall the things that we know from
knowing how to do perpetratorwork can really not only bear
weight on the perpetrators thatwe see, but also on the victims
to help them stay safe and sethealthy boundaries and see
things rightly.
So those are all such goodthings, and if we weren't
collaborative, if we weren't ateam, I don't know how this
(39:00):
would work.
I would be very fearful, as atherapist that specializes in
the deep end of the pond we aredeep trauma that I would miss
something essential and end upputting people at risk.
And our first ethic in casepeople don't know is do no harm.
And I think that's probablysame on the biblical counselor
side.
Maybe it's said differently,but for us it's a big deal not
(39:21):
to mess this up.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
So I think, I think you would have been okay, tabby,
working at a slower pace andcase by case.
And everybody who does thatmakes mistakes.
Actually, everyone who doesintervention makes mistakes.
There's no perfect intervention.
That has ever happened in thehistory of interventions.
So I think you would have beenokay working case by case, but I
(39:45):
do think what men of peace andwhat facilitated groups do is,
like that work a little bit onsteroids, and it gives you that
confidence that you need andthat psychoeducational response,
takes it a bit out of thetherapeutic world and it puts it
into a collaborative, which issomething that abusive
individuals need.
(40:06):
They need to be confronted andbe held accountable but then
also be invited into the work,not have the work done for them.
And sometimes a therapeuticenvironment tempts them to
collude and try to find ways tocontrol, and a group is less
likely for them to gain control.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
I will say it not only tempts them, it invites
them if you don't know whatyou're doing, because the way
that we're trained as therapistsis unconditional positive
regard right, we were trained tosee the good.
Now, as a therapist, thatdoesn't mean that we don't
confront the hard things, thedestructive things.
We do all of that, but it's adifferent paradigm.
And when you're doing abusework, it is upside down.
(40:46):
Your client is not in the room,and that is a vital
understanding of the work,because anything you say or do
goes home man.
And so if you are not mindfulof this, you are sending someone
destructive home with a sword,and that is highly unwise and
also really messes up the do noharm thing, because not only is
(41:08):
it not good for the victim, butit's not good for the
perpetrator.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Exactly Also someone made in the image of God, who
needs the truth desperatelyright in order to change.
Granted, our primary clientagain is the victim and maybe
the children, but he needs theabusive individual, needs heart
change dramatically and in themost desperate way for the
(41:33):
victim, but then also for theirfuture.
Way for the victim, but thenalso for their future Right and
even consequently, theirrelationship with God, because
they stand in a prettysignificantly dangerous place in
their relationship with theLord.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
You know, I always think of the sheep and goats.
You know, lord, lord, didn't Ido X, y, z for you, and God's
like you did a bunch of stuffand I don't know who you are,
and that terrifies me personally, like I don't understand how
people don't have fear of theLord, cause I have a lot.
I do not want to stand on thewrong side of the living God.
(42:07):
I will be honest, and so when Ilook at these guys and they're
like I'm fine, I'm like you arenot fine.
I'm worried about you.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Well, I know this will be a good way to start
landing the plane.
I think is the number of timesI can't count the number of
times I've said to guys cause itdoes get hard and you really
care because you want thischange to happen.
But when I've had to have thoseconversations, usually
privately, during a check-in, Icannot care more about this than
you do.
Like brother, I have carriedwater for about five weeks now.
(42:39):
It's time to switch places.
I cannot care more about yoursanctification than you do.
You have got to take thisseriously and that's those
rubber, meet the road, fish orcut bait conversations Going
back to our struggle in ministry.
I think those are the hard onesfor pastors to have.
Yeah, conversations going backto our struggle in ministry.
I think those are the hard onesfor pastors to have, because we
(42:59):
want to show grace and webelieve that repentance is
possible, and I believe allthose things too.
But for the sake of the victimand for the sake of this
person's heart, there are timesthat you got to care more than I
do.
This is your soul.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
And I think in the church in general and I think
this would just be my final callfor the people listening,
especially if they're ministryleaders it's going to take
longer than you want and it'sgoing to be way messier, and you
are going to have to pray awhole lot more than you already
do, which might be a lot, andyou just have to take the
(43:33):
timelines off.
Man, we're looking at eternity,not a six month program, and
when we look at it that way, Ithink that gives us a little
more stamina.
And I know that there areprobably pastors listening whose
hearts are racing becausethey're like I have a church of
like 25 people and oh mygoodness.
But also, this is why partnersare great, because then you
(43:55):
don't carry the load alone,right, we lift each other's arms
and we come alongside and wealso bang our heads against the
wall when it's frustrating, youknow, and all of those things,
because we're willing to get inthe Bible with the seed has to
go into the ground and it has todie in order to grow.
(44:20):
And we are called to take upour cross, we are called to
crucify our flesh.
That is what the Holy Spirit isdoing, and if we're doing that.
Those are not pretty, those arenot clean, those are not tied
up with a bow metaphors.
They are a hot mess and weshould have a little dirt and
some tears for us.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
They are a hot mess and we should have a little dirt
and some tears, true stories,and that's what this work is.
It's messy, but I don't know,tabby, I wouldn't trade it, like
for all the hardship it pales,I tell people because people
recognize how difficult the workis, and they'll ask me like how
do you do it?
And I'm like as hard as the workis, sometimes it pales in
comparison to what just onevictim is experiencing on a
regular basis and I'm like ashard as the work is sometimes it
pales in comparison to whatjust one victim is experiencing
on a regular basis, and I wantto know Jesus in the fellowship
(45:01):
of his suffering and the powerof his resurrection, and so I
believe not only in this kind ofsolidarity aspect but also in
that resurrection power, thatthere's power for victims to
experience freedom and hope andthere's power for perpetrators
to experience change, and Ithink that keeps us motivated to
(45:21):
keep writing books and keepdoing conferences and keep
training people and keep meetingwith folks.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Absolutely so.
I would like to give you aminute here as we end this.
I want you to talk aboutPeaceWorks PeaceWorks University
, because it is awesome.
I've been a part of that for Idon't know how many years at
this point, it's been a while.
It's been a hot minute, I think, like almost since pretty close
to the very beginning actually,and I'd love you to tell us
about your books as well.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Yeah, so I have a couple books out there the Heart
of Domestic Abuse GospelSolutions for Men who Use
Violence and Control in the Home.
That was my first book and thatis an overview of my
intervention process from abiblical perspective.
The second is collaborative,where I was the general editor,
called Caring for FamiliesCaught in Domestic Abuse.
(46:10):
That's from New Growth Press.
Peaceworks is the ministry nameand it was actually I don't know
if you even know this Tabbywhen I was dreaming about what
to do next.
Peaceworks was really birthedout of this idea of a factory
mindset and it's got three gearsas the logo and I thought, okay
(46:31):
, what would it look like tohave this manufacturing feel of
working for peace?
And so that's what PeaceWorksis, this factory of peace that
we wanted to develop, and out ofthat we run a couple different
things.
The PeaceWorks podcast theworld's worst podcast drops
every Tuesday morning at 6 am onall the platforms.
Peaceworks University is ouronline membership community, of
(46:53):
which Tabby is a part.
It's about 200 helpers fromaround the country, around the
world, really that get resources.
We have a huge vault ofresources probably the biggest
vault of resources out there onthe topic of dealing with
domestic abuse from agospel-centered perspective.
Men of Peace menofpeaceorgChrisMolesorg is my main site.
Menofpeaceorg deals with theMen of Peace digital course and
(47:16):
Men of Peace programming.
And then, lastly, is PeaceWorksLive.
That's our annual conference.
September 11th through the 13th2025 is this year's conference
in Winfield, west Virginia.
We have limited seating.
We always limit the number offolks.
I think this year the ceilingis 250.
We got two tracks stewardingsurvivor stories featuring
(47:37):
Melissa Affolter.
Elise Fitzpatrick and RachelDenhollander will be our primary
speakers, and then the Men ofPeace Facilitator track, with
myself and Greg Wilson trainingon men of peace, and our worship
leader once again is AdamWestlake, who is amazing.
And I think that's all theplugs.
Plug, plug, plug, plug, plug.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
I love them all.
If you're a pastor or aministry leader listening to
this and you're like we don'thave a program, oh gosh.
The collaborative book, theCaring for Families Caught in
Domestic Abuse really helpfulbecause it really does cross,
like, all the different areasthat you need and it really is
an example of teamwork, makesthe dream work, as it were, in
this work, and so I woulddefinitely commend that book to
(48:19):
you.
If you're just starting out,the Heart of Domestic Abuse is
incredibly helpful.
In fact that is how I got one ofmy employees.
He was an intern candidate atthe time and I said what do you
understand about domestic abuseand coercive control?
And he said well, I've read theHeart of Domestic Abuse by
Chris Moles and I was likeyou're hired, Welcome aboard.
And I've trained him since thenand it's been fabulous.
(48:41):
So you know, the PeaceWorksresources that are out there
through the chrismolesorg is sohelpful and even if you're not
sure you want to do perpetratorwork, I very much encourage you
come to a PeaceWorks Live, gothrough the Men of Peace track,
because it is so incrediblyhelpful in the understanding of
(49:02):
things and the understanding ofhow perpetrators in some ways
even think.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
If nothing else, you will love the community 100%.
The PeaceWorks community is thebest, one of the best tribes
out there, and we have a greattime.
And it is a healing weekend,just a respite for all of us to
see each other's faces and hearfrom like-minded people what the
Lord's doing.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Absolutely, chris.
Thank you so much for hangingout with me.
We are so grateful that you arehere, and I will have all of
your links and information inthe show notes as well, so folks
can find you.
And just thank you for being agood brother.
I know so many of the peoplethat listen to the hey Tabby
podcast are survivors, and itcan be so hard, when your church
(49:45):
has betrayed you, when yourspouse has betrayed you, to
believe that there are any goodmen on this earth.
And I stand in testament,because I have wonderful
brothers like you, that thereare.
And so thank you for being agood brother.
Thank you for letting thegospel bear weight on your life
so that it can bear weight onthe lives of others.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Thank you, tabby.
It's been a real pleasure to bewith you and hopefully we'll
get more guests saying hey,tabby, at the beginning.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
That's going to be fun.
I'm going to try that.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
I kind of feel like if I could say this on the
podcast, we'll have listenerswriting in Send your cards and
letters.
I feel like the intro shouldjust be somebody shouting hurt.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
You never know what could happen.
Well, thank you again, Chris.
You are a delight and I'm soglad that you were here.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
God bless you, buddy.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom.
Forward slash hey Tabby.
That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
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