November 24, 2025 • 66 mins
What if everything you’ve been taught about hope is backwards?
In this powerful episode of Hey Tabi, trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook sits down with Dr. Jenny Bayless of Fuller Seminary to talk about why hope isn’t an outcome you chase, but an anchor you hold onto when life feels unbearably heavy.
If you’ve ever felt betrayed by hope, overwhelmed by suffering, or exhausted by Christian clichés that make your pain feel minimized, this conversation is for you.
We dive deep into:
✨ Why survivors often shudder at the word “hope”
✨ The difference between wishful thinking and true, grounded hope
✨ How trauma, abuse, and betrayal shape your ability to hope
✨ Why hope requires touching pain—not ignoring it
✨ What the Bible actually means by hope
✨ How to rebuild your internal sense of safety, agency, and intuition
✨ Hope that doesn’t depend on outcomes, miracles, or circumstances
✨ How to walk with God when your world has fallen apart
✨ How clinicians can hold hope well for clients who cannot hold it yet
Dr. Bayless brings her expertise in trauma, spiritual integration, EMDR, and addiction recovery into a compassionate, soul-level conversation that survivors desperately need but rarely hear.
If you’ve been hurt by the church…
If you’ve prayed and fasted and still didn’t get the outcome you begged for…
If hope feels dangerous or even cruel…
You are not alone.
At The Journey and The Process we strive to help you heal. Our therapists are trauma specialists who use evidence-based tools like EMDR, Brainspotting, Somatic Experiencing, and Internal Family Systems to help you heal - mind, soul, and body. Reach out today to start your healing journey. https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/
This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?
You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
Wanna support Hey Tabi? Buy me a coffee here - https://buymeacoffee.com/heytabi
📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com
💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
📲 The Journey & The Process Instagram - www.instagram.com/_tjatp
Subscribe to my YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there
👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!
🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:39):
Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk
about the hard things out loudwith our actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how tointersect with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here, andwe are not tapers and calmly in
the morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(01:01):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now, let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof Hey Tappy, and I am super
(01:22):
excited to have a friend herewith me.
This is Dr.
Jenny Bayless.
She is a licensed marriage andfamily therapist and the program
chair of Fuller TheologicalSeminary's Marriage and Family
Therapy Graduate Program at theArizona Regional Campus.
Her clinical experiences includeworking at the Meadows, which is
an inpatient treatment centerfor trauma and addiction, as
(01:44):
well as working with couples andindividuals in a group private
practice.
She's a certified sex addictiontherapist, and we love that here
because you know I am too.
And she's also trained in EMDR.
Again, we love that here becauseI am too.
And emotionally focused therapy.
Jenny and I get along quitewell.
She specializes in traumahealing work and addressing
(02:07):
spiritual traumas and spiritualintegration.
She received her Doctor ofMinistry in Grief and Trauma,
which is such a cool doctorate.
Grief and Trauma Therapy fromPrimus University of Theology
and her Master of Science inMarriage and Family Therapy from
Fuller Theological Seminary.
So Jenny is amazing.
I am so excited that she is herewith us.
So welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
Thanks, Tabitha.
I'm so excited to be here and toconnect with you more.
I think there are some peoplethat when you meet them, there's
sort of an instant resonancewhere you feel like you're
connected on a soul level, evenif you don't know each other
very well.
And I felt that with you when Imet you at the restore
conference.
And then again when we reunitedat the ITAP Symposium.
(02:50):
So it's a joy to be with you onyour podcast today.
And I'm excited to talk abouthope.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
Hope is a four-letter word with actually
four letters, but like when Isay it that way, a lot of times
people think of it as profanity,especially if you are a survivor
of trauma.
When I heard you speak on hopeat Restore, I was like, more
people need to hear this.
It's so good.
So tell me about hope.
And we had talked a little bitbefore we started recording
(03:17):
about trying to find adefinition of hope.
So let's start there.
How would you describe it?
SPEAKER_01 (03:23):
It's so hard for me to um, you know, I think I keep
trying to find some sort ofnice, succinct working
definition.
And nothing settles because Ifeel like it doesn't quite
capture.
And I actually think that's thepoint.
I think that's what peopleshudder at is an oversimplified
(03:44):
definition of hope because itgives us connotation like
something's missing.
Oh, well, if you just had hope,if you had this thing, then
you'd be okay.
And hope is both a noun, it'salso a verb, it's relational,
(04:05):
it's a person, so it cannot bereduced to one specific thing.
So I'll just tell you how Iconceptualize hope for myself.
I think of it as a way ofseeing.
So I envision like hope goggles,and so this hope vision allows
(04:30):
me to see more realities andgreater truths than my eyes can
see without it.
The hope vision also requiresthat I see and touch pain, or
else it's I don't believe it'shope anymore.
(04:50):
I think it's wishful thinking,it has to be anchored in
reality.
And so I think of hope, my hopelens, as a way of seeing more
that gives power and agency andhealing.
That's actually very real, butit's not tied to a particular
(05:11):
outcome, it's actually moreanchored in who I am and God's
infinite, constant, eternalpresence within me and within
all of his creation.
That's not a simple definition,but that's how I am thinking
(05:31):
about hope.
SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
I love that, and I love that it is anchored in
reality.
I think that is where so manysurvivors have a hard time.
Okay, they're like, you don'tknow the pain that I'm standing
in, or the darkness, or thisblack cloud that I feel like
follows me.
And so, how can I have hope?
You know, because they doseparate it out from the current
(05:54):
moment, and it's supposed to bethis thing, this other, and it
is and it isn't.
So when you hear that, tell mewhat you start thinking about.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
I think about how something that I just believe is
the only way to transform painis to touch the wound.
And I think that's what Jesusshows us.
His resurrected body has scars,and he put out his hands, his
arms, and invited those who hesaw to touch them, to touch
(06:30):
those scars.
And hope was burst out of thatscar.
And so I have so muchcompassion.
I think that's the first thingthat comes out for me around I
think that initial feeling thatcan come up for survivors and
(06:50):
around feeling like this thingcalled hope is unattainable or
has betrayed them.
I can't I can't hope again.
I hoped before.
That's what got me into thismess.
That hope was a lie.
And yet, again, I think we haveto rethink how we're
understanding hope and to say,well, when we look at the
(07:17):
reality of our pain, and whenhope invites us to actually
touch that wound, be present toit, to grieve and to lament,
then there's often somethingthat's beautiful that's born of
that place when we see eachother, when we tell our stories
(07:37):
to one another, and are able tosay, I see you.
I also see your strengths, I seethings that you can't see in
yourself right now.
And that starts to birth thesebuds of okay, maybe it's not
about forcing the circumstancesto be different, but knowing no
(08:01):
matter what happens, I will beokay.
(09:38):
I can be okay.
It's a recentering withinoneself, and so I that's what
comes up for me, Tabitha.
Both compassion for probably thehope that has betrayed and the
hope that is disappointed, andthe hope that feels so out of
reach.
And I also feel hopeful thatokay, don't give up.
(10:02):
We can hold it for one another,too.
Of when we are relational andvulnerable in safe spaces, there
can be something beautifulthat's birthed from that that
goes beyond what a person candream or imagine.
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
I love that.
One of the things that, gosh,there's so much here.
One of the things that you said,you know, initially was like
hope not being in an outcome,but being within you.
And you just really went back tothat here now of hope being
something in us, regardless of,in some ways, what's happening
around us.
And I think as a clinician, andyou probably see this too, that
(10:41):
we come in with people who havesaid, I hoped in a thing.
I hoped in my marriage changingand it exploded.
I hoped in my child being healedand that didn't happen.
I hoped in fill in the blank,right?
And so, where is God?
You know, because thecircumstances didn't go that
way.
So talk about that.
(11:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:06):
This, what you're talking about right now, Tabata,
I think is one of the reasonsI'm so obsessed with trying to
dig deeper into hope andunderstand.
I grew up as a pastor'sdaughter, I grew up in the
church, and there was so muchabout that experience for me
that was helpful, beneficial,and also that I am teasing out
(11:31):
now.
And so thinking about especiallyearly times in my life and my
early professional career,personal situations and
professional situations where Ijust tried so hard to will a
type of outcome that would beevidence of my faith and hope of
(11:54):
well, God, you say that nothingis impossible for you.
And so I'd pray, I'd geteverybody around me to pray, I'd
fast, I'd go to the mountains,I'd I would just take out every
single spiritual tool that Icould possibly think of to try
(12:15):
to bring life to a heartsituation to try to remove pain.
And I felt crushed when Icouldn't.
When I was 19, my dad got reallysick.
He developed chronic pain andsomething called akathesia,
which is a movement disorderthat can often be triggered by
(12:38):
psychotropic drugs.
And it sent him into kind of ahorror show for the next three
years.
And as a 19-year-old, I felt sohelpless and powerless.
I was going to college out ofstate, and so I'd call my mom
and I would just hear just thepain in her voice.
(12:59):
So she would tell me about theblessing stars in the night sky
that God would give her.
To make his pain go away.
Hence the fasting and thepraying and the getting everyone
(13:23):
else to pray.
And one time I called him upthat I was like trying to exhort
him like, what are yourspiritual gifts?
And it doesn't matter if you'rein pain, you can be have
purposeful work, anyways.
Or thinking, how can I forcejoy, force light into that dark
space?
Well, as a daughter, I was like,Oh, my dad loves when he gets to
(13:46):
hear stories of his daughter'ssuccess.
So I made sure to graduatesumakum laude from my college in
the honors program, and youknow, that gave a temporary
dopamine high to a proud father,and then it changed nothing.
And so I had to learn thisradical surrender, and it's such
(14:09):
a painful process because it'sso confusing, it's so confusing,
and I think just embracing that,like I remember crying out to
God and being like, You say thatlook at the lilies of the
fields, and if God cares forthem and he cares so much more
(14:30):
for us, won't he take care ofyou so well too?
It just felt like, well, I'mlooking around and I'm not
seeing what I'm not seeing caredfor lilies.
It feels that way, or it wouldfeel arbitrary, like, well, it
seems like this person has amiracle story, and this person,
their story just leads to death.
And it's hard to make sense of.
(14:51):
We are constantly trying to makesense of things, we are
meaning-making creatures, ithelps us to feel safer when we
can make sense of.
We want to know the why.
And so I think a big piece ishaving to put down that
understanding the why, andstarting with the what the what
(15:13):
is this is incredibly painfuland heartbreaking, and being
present to that, and thatthere's this invitation to grief
and to lament and to presencethat has to happen first, and
then what can be found often inthat place is the peace that
(15:38):
transcends understanding.
And so I had a client who said,you know, I do not have hope
that my earthly relationshipwith my father will be healthy
or change.
That is not something I havehope about anymore.
(15:58):
But I do have hope that nomatter what happens or the
status of our relationship inthis lifetime, I'm okay.
I can be okay.
That is liberating, and that'sthe type of hope that I'm
talking about here, and I thinkwe're talking about that is so
(16:20):
needed.
It has to move away from areally well-intentioned
19-year-old trying to will anoutcome out of desperation and
love for her dad.
Like I have so much great loveand compassion for who I was and
what I was trying to do.
And that exhausted me.
And I was getting burnt out andangry and cynical.
(16:42):
I felt betrayed.
I felt like it wasn't working,something must be wrong with me.
And instead, I had to learn howto surrender and sit and look
inward and just connect with myown agency and power within who
God created me to be and wrestlewith the this feels unfair.
(17:02):
And no, I'm held in that place,and that's okay.
Be mad, be pissed, be like bereal.
That's welcome.
It's so welcome, despitemessages we receive around anger
and in the church often.
And finding that my hope was notanchored to the outcome of
(17:23):
whether my dad was sick or well,it was anchored to a God who
says he's making all things new.
And that's where the lens has tocome in because I can't just see
what I'm seeing around.
It just looks like chaos.
We have to fight to see how allthings are being made new.
(17:44):
And I think our site for that,Tabitha, is so often in the
personal stories.
It's the you said, Oh, I'mhearing amazing stories, right?
And your face lit up, and Icould just see like it's a
treasure and like how specialthat is to you.
As I don't even know what thosestories are, I just know they're
treasures to your heart ofpeople's pain connecting with
(18:06):
feeling seen and really havinghope.
And I think that's the places wesee all things new coming in.
Sorry, I'm a preacher'sdaughter, so now I'm just I I
love it.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
I love it.
And also, I'm a preacher'sdaughter, so like go.
I love it.
I love it also when we can diveinto those deep waters because
what I'm hearing, one of myfavorite concepts is dialectics,
two things that are opposite andcan be synthesized.
And I'm hearing the tension ofthe spiritual disciplines that
(18:37):
are good, right?
Praying, fasting, reading theBible, encouraging others to
pray, praying for things.
It says, boldly come before thethrone of grace and just ask
God, right?
And the tension of we may notget what we want.
You know, we may not get what weare, you know, and hope it's
like love.
It's one of those words that canmean everything or nothing,
(18:58):
depending on the context, right?
So I might be hoping in anoutcome or hoping for an
outcome, but what am I hopingin?
You know, and I think thosemight be a little bit different.
How would you think about that?
SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
Yeah.
I love what you said about thedialectics.
Because I feel like so much oflife is actually learning to
embrace paradox.
And I really believe that hoperequires that we stand in the
tension of personal agency anddivine mystery.
(19:35):
I think that's where we have tostand.
And it's a tension because thereis personal responsibility and
agency and choice, and we arenot nearly as in control as we
like to think we are.
And so I think uh embracing thatparadox.
(20:01):
And the other thing I think thatcomes up for me, Tabitha, as I'm
hearing you share, because Ithink, okay, well, how do we
embrace it, right?
For me, I think that starts withreally having an attunement with
our personal intuition and theplace of just God's presence and
(20:22):
spirit within.
We are told that we have hisspirit, we are told that we have
the mind of Christ.
That's incredibly powerful.
And I think so often the noiseof everything around us is so
loud that we lose sight andsense of that deeper knowing.
(20:43):
And so turning down the volumeof all the outside noises and
learning to turn up the volumeof our own deep intuition, that
place of knowing.
It's hard almost to describe inwords like, how do I know it's
my intuition, or just not allthoughts are helpful, not all
feelings are helpful.
(21:05):
And yeah, we usually know, likewhen somebody says something, it
just feels intuitive.
There's usually a feeling ofpeace there.
It feels like a deeper knowing,it feels like it comes from a
deeper place, like down in thegut.
No, a lot of the science and theneuroscience that's coming out
also supports that.
(21:25):
And yeah, we'll hear it.
Like, I'll feel it for myselfwhile our hearts clients say,
like, I'll say, okay, so Ithat's the lie.
Like, what's the truth?
Or what do you want the truth tobe?
Like, what do you think?
Let's check in with yourintuition.
Like the message I'm gettingfrom my intuition is it's
actually I'm actually gonna beokay.
(21:46):
I don't I don't know if I canfeel the truth of that yet, but
there's some part of me thatdoes.
And usually when I ask, where doyou notice that in your body?
They'll say it's like deep downin here.
And so I think as we tune in,that's where there's this anchor
(22:07):
spot, that's where there is thispiece that can help the chaos to
look different, to feeldifferent, and it also gives us
wisdom and discernment of whatis helpful for us to see and
hear, and where there's healthyboundaries and limits because
our minds were never created totake in all that we have access
(22:30):
to see, especially in now ourday with technology.
And so it takes wisdom to knowwhat we need to look at that we
don't want to look at.
What does it mean to not be anavoidance?
And how do we also not becomeflooded in the chaos, which
tends to just cause us to freezeand shut down and overwhelm,
(22:52):
anyways?
So that's really where I want toencourage.
I think it's a practice oftuning in to God's spirit within
and our own intuition created byhim.
SPEAKER_00 (23:02):
Yeah.
And that's a skill.
It's an actual skill.
You know, what we're talkingabout from a theological
perspective, if we want to putit in nerdy terms, is the now
and the not yet.
So that should sound reallyfamiliar to a lot of folks who
have been in the Christian walkfor a while.
And you don't just get away fromthe noise.
You can't just go, and nowtoday, this is what I'm gonna
(23:24):
do.
You know, if you've never doneit before, you have to learn.
And if you've been told throughabusive situations that you're
not able to hear from God or youdon't know how to, or you have
learned to doubt your intuitionbecause of abuse or deep harm in
a relationship, you may have torelearn it.
And that's okay.
One of the things I tell a lotof my clients is get out in
(23:46):
nature.
There's a ton of data out therethat nature, first of all, by
itself is very healing andhelpful, and it is automatically
going to reduce some noisebecause you're not gonna have as
many screens or inputs andthings like that.
So I've had clients go towherever they're comfortable in
terms of going out in nature.
Like there are people who arelike, I am not going for a walk
(24:07):
in the woods.
The bugs and the bears arefrightening, or you know, and
they're just they're not likeoutdoorsy humans.
And it's like you can go to apark with paved trails, like
there's a lot of options here.
And so I just encourage them tofind what fits for them and
bring something like a playlistthat has like binaural music on
it or certain frequencies,because God has created us
(24:29):
really fun and really cool interms of the somatic things that
can help us engage.
And so listening to some of thatmusic and just taking a few
minutes.
And if it's scary because whenwe slow down, stuff starts
talking, you know, our bodiesstart telling us what's going on
and our minds may go lots ofplaces, but to do that from a
place of compassion and kindnessto self and to say, I might have
(24:53):
a lot of things that come up,and if I feel overwhelmed by it,
I'm gonna take some breaths, I'mgonna look at a tree or a lake
or a flower or something, andjust give my attention to that
for a minute, right?
And let everything start to slowdown.
And you might be able to do thatfor 60 seconds one day, and then
as you practice it, you're gonnabe able to do it for longer
(25:15):
periods of time.
And then you will start to hearthe presence of God that lives
within you in your actualphysical body.
You know, he does say we areindwelled, that is all of us,
and start to have thatexperience, and it doesn't have
to be perfect.
God knows what we're made of,and he's so gentle and kind as
he enters in.
SPEAKER_01 (25:36):
Right.
Oh, I love it.
We're getting into how trauma isstored in the body and how
holistic healing.
I think that's aware.
I mean, I'm in Arizona, and sothere's a mountain that is like
nine minutes from my house.
It's about a three and a halfmile trail.
(25:57):
And from the time I was young,we'd go there and I call it my
thinking mountain.
And I told my husband, I'm like,if you don't, if you ever don't
really know where I am, I'mprobably on my thinking
mountain.
And so a couple weeks ago,actually, he asked me what I
wanted to do on a Saturday.
I'm like, I just feel like Ineed to go outside and smell a
(26:18):
rock.
Think you're smelling the desertsage.
I don't think it's the rocks.
It's just being in that space,Tabitha.
And you're so right, becausewhat is so heartbreaking with
some of the injuries that traumacauses, especially when it's
(26:39):
relational trauma.
So somebody that was trustedthat was supposed to be someone
safe is actually the inflictorof harm.
It destroys typically that senseof confidence in oneself and
(27:00):
ability to hear oneself.
And it can be so confusing.
And I think that something I'venoticed both in my own life and
as I've journeyed with otherpeople in with my clients and in
different spaces, is there's avery natural tendency for us to
(27:20):
want to rush the process or tobe really judgmental and harsh
with ourselves.
Or I'll hear, like, oh man, Iwas doing good and now I'm doing
bad, or I'm going backwards.
And that's not how that works.
It's not, it's part of thejourney of honoring our body in
(27:42):
what's coming up, and I thinkreally recognizing what might
feel like small minute wins.
You said there might just becapacity to be still with
oneself for 60 seconds andcelebrate that.
That's huge.
That's building a new muscle,that's building a new
neuropathway, that's allowinggreater connection.
(28:05):
And so often, the especiallythose relational injuries,
there's years often of messagesand and a reinforcement of oh
no, don't listen to yourself.
You can't trust your ownintuition.
Oh, your desires are deceitful.
(28:26):
You can't trust yourself, trustthis authority, let them usurp
anything coming up for yourself.
This external source of yourknowledge and everything you
need to be okay.
And that is so dangerous.
And I think part of theconversation you and I had after
(28:47):
Restore was I think for us whoend up becoming clinicians or
helpers or leaders, it's burstout of a genuine place to help,
right?
Like, of course, we want towelcome people through healing.
I hope, I hope that's what isname.
I hope that for a lot of people,right?
But I'll give the benefit of thedoubt.
(29:07):
Like, I think that's genuinelywhat brings us into this space.
And we have to be careful notreenact that power dynamic of I
am now in a place of authority.
Let me tell you what to do toheal.
And I learned that I used to tryand source people's hope.
(29:29):
That's what I thought was thegood Christ-like thing to do.
Jesus healed, Jesus saved, hemultiplied, he fed, he did all
these things, be like Christ.
I misunderstood that to meanthat I was to source people's
(29:49):
hope.
And so when that wasn't, I mean,it was just exhausting.
And also just didn't work.
Like I said with my dad, Icouldn't source his hope.
I was not the source of it.
I'm just one of the sheep, notthe shepherd.
And so at first, I just thought,oh, it's because I don't, I'm
not trained well enough.
I don't have the right hopetool.
(30:12):
So, you know, you got yourmaster's, and then you get your
doctorate, and then you go toall these trainings, and you
have all these acronyms afteryour day because one of these
trainings will revolutionize thehealing process and it will give
me the hope tool that I've beenmissing all along.
And then you come to find out,like it all kind of starts to
sound a little bit the same, andthat I was confusing my role of
(30:38):
trying to be the source ofpeople's hope, which is actually
really dangerous, because thenif I'm trying to force feed you
hope, Tabitha, I'm denying yourpower and agency all over again,
even with good intentions, asopposed to being a hope holder.
So I think about it like I havethis flashlight, and I'm going
(31:03):
to shine this light on what Isee in you and through you and
around you.
And I'm just gonna continue totell you what I see until you
can connect with the hope thatis already present within you,
the worthiness and value that'salready present within you, the
resources that are alreadypresent within you.
(31:27):
Because trauma does not make aperson broken, it's an injury,
so there needs to be healing,and yet oftentimes it's not
seen.
Oh no, I have this within me,and so I've literally said, I
know you can't feel or see hopefor yourself right now.
(31:48):
That's okay.
I'm going to shine my flashlightand I'm just gonna hold it for
you until you can hold it foryourself.
It's not gonna be for me.
I'm not the source.
You are, but you don't know thatyet.
And so when we reflect to eachother what we see and we
celebrate, 60 seconds?
Are you kidding me?
You sat with yourself for 60seconds.
(32:10):
That's awesome.
And most people are like, Okay,I Wasn't going to give myself a
medal for that.
Like we they miss it.
People miss, and that's wherethat non-judgmental kindness
needs to come in.
The Bible says it's his kindnessthat leads us to repentance.
What's repentance?
It's a returning to ourselves.
unknown (32:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:32):
Repentance means returning to ourselves.
So that's really something thatI think is important to my heart
that I just wanted to expresshere is we can have
well-intentioned desires tobring hope to people.
But to be really careful thatwe're not operating out of a
(32:52):
source, which only reinforces amessage of something is missing
in you, but rather doing theopposite, which only reinforces,
oh, I can learn to tune in withmyself.
And that's where so much freedomcomes, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00 (33:11):
I agree completely.
Like as therapists, I think ourjob in so many ways is to give
away our power, right?
Is to give it to the client tosay, this is your space.
This is a place where you have avoice and autonomy, especially
when it's been taken awaythrough traumatic experiences
and abuse.
But our role is hope holder insome ways and hope shiner
(33:32):
lighter honor, which is not aword, but it is now.
And I've told clients, I'm gonnahold hope for you until you hold
it for you.
And then we'll hold it together,you know?
And that's the main goal is forthem to see who they are, who
they really are, not who they'vebeen told that they are, not who
they might believe that theyare, because of a million
different reasons, but who theyreally are in Christ.
(33:56):
And that's one of my favoritethings about EMDR is you're
taking, and this is how Idistill it down for believers a
lot.
You're taking all of the thingsthat are not true about you that
God did not say, and we'removing you toward all the things
that are true about you and Godactually did say.
And that's the essence of thenegative cognition to the
positive cognition in EMDR, inmy opinion.
(34:17):
And we're saying, like you arestanding in darkness and you
can't see the light, but I'mgonna hold the light.
I'm gonna show you where thelight is, who the light is, and
I'm gonna help you walk thereuntil you can walk there on your
own.
We're going together.
And that is one of the beautiesof the therapeutic relationship,
is that we are walking with ourclients out of the valley of the
(34:39):
shadow of death, realistically.
And it's one of the beauties ofhealthy community.
And for people who've beenharmed in community,
particularly faith-basedcommunities, that's scary.
Like, what do you mean you wantme to be in the in community?
And I hope they don't callthemselves Christians.
Because goodness gracious, likethose are some scary people
sometimes.
And yes, some of them are.
(35:00):
That's realistic, but not all ofthem.
And some are very good people.
I remember a million years ago afriend of mine saying, because I
was definitely very Pollyanna,if you're a Christian, then you
must be a wonderful humanbecause that's how you're
supposed to be, right?
And I had no understanding ofwolves.
And I remember my friend tellingme, Tabitha, sheep have sharp
(35:21):
teeth sometimes.
And then having some of thoseexperiences where it was like,
oh yes, yes, they do.
And some of them aren't actuallysheep.
Oh goodness.
And so that can make somebodyreally scared to step back into
community and to put themselvesout there and to be vulnerable
because they don't want to getbitten again.
And that makes so much sense.
(35:42):
And I love to normalize that formy clients.
Like, of course you feel thatway.
How could you not?
And how can we learn how to healthe broken bits so that our
people picker is a little bitbetter, right?
Because sometimes our peoplepicker gets broken and learn
different boundaries.
Cause sometimes in the church,we're not taught good
(36:03):
boundaries.
We're not taught healthyauthority.
We're not taught healthy pushingback against wicked authority.
We're not taught some of thosethings or to ask good questions
of the person in the pulpit.
And so we can learn to do thatand learn to find communities
that are safer.
And it look, nobody's going tobe perfect.
People be peoply sometimes.
And even really wonderful peoplecan do things that hurt your
(36:26):
feelings and that hurt you andyou have to work through them.
I think that's another piece ofhope for the younger generation
in particular, is the differencebetween someone who is wicked
and you have to have a verytight boundary, and someone who
hurt your feelings but isn'twicked and you can work through
(36:46):
that.
SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
Right.
Right.
Absolutely.
And I think that's an importantdistinction that can be
especially hard to differentiatewhen you're in the beginning,
more of the beginning stages ofthe healing process from a
severe injury.
And I think just normalizingtoo.
So what boundaries and safety isgonna look like in those first
(37:10):
six months in that first year islikely different than once
there's been some grounding andsome stabilization on board and
that reconnection with theintuition and God's spirit
within, which can help a lotwith that discernment.
I think about how a lot ofthere's not a lot of research
(37:39):
right now on religious trauma,and yet there's a growing body
of research around partnerbetrayal trauma, which really is
kind of the same thing.
Because again, you're talkingabout a safe person or system or
(38:00):
a leader that was supposed to bea source of support and safety
that becomes a source of paininjury and deceit.
And so the partner betrayaltrauma research just shows that
over 70% of partners who haveexperienced betrayal trauma
(38:25):
experience symptoms parallelwith PTSD.
And that's significant.
That's over the PTSD, over 70%.
And so one of the phrases we saya lot, and I'm sure you've heard
it, is we look for reliablebehavior over time.
(38:47):
Yes.
Reliable behavior over time.
And I think that as humans, weget caught in the pendulum
swings, right?
Every action, there's an equaland opposite reaction.
That is just how we tend to liveand react.
So it makes sense that there canbe starting in this place of
(39:10):
well, no, you just we just haveto forgive.
It doesn't matter what it is,you just have to forgive.
And if I'm looking for reliablebehavior over time, am I not
forgiving?
Or this pendulum swing into youguys are all wolves.
I am safest alone.
So I so much compassion forwhere those places are coming
(39:34):
from, but being able to noticeokay, wow, I have a really
strong protective part becauseit felt completely
underprotected before.
And so, what does it look liketo have even a small group of a
safe other?
Of course, I'm biased a goodtherapist.
(39:58):
Get with a good therapist, havethat support.
But when a nice way of testingand tracking when you're
evaluating for safety, it's notlooking for perfect behavior
every time over time, but thereliable, it's good enough.
Something doesn't have to hit100% of the time for it to be
(40:19):
reliable, but it better be morethan 30.
Right.
So if somebody is saying, yes,if somebody is saying
consistently, maybe it hasnothing, it feels like it has
nothing to do with things.
It's like, oh yeah, I'm gonnacome and I'm gonna help prepare
the coffee for the morningworship time, and they tend to
(40:40):
flake a lot, or they tend tojust in general say a lot of
things that their actions don'tmatch.
That's a good indication thatfor whatever reason, they're
probably not somebody who can bea source of reliability and
safety.
SPEAKER_02 (40:57):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
And so to pay attention to that.
SPEAKER_00 (41:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, I will say, andyou alluded to this, forgiveness
and reconciliation are not thesame thing.
I can forgive someone and putthem in the hands of a living
God and let God be theadjudicator.
I don't have to be.
That doesn't mean I have to betheir friend, and it doesn't
mean I have to be inrelationship with them.
(41:20):
That may not be wise, especiallyif there isn't real repentance
and a shift in heart behaviorover time.
And when you see a shift inheart behavior over time, it is
evident, it becomes evident.
So in destructive relationships,for example, one of the things I
hear often from destructive menin particular, because that's a
(41:42):
population I work with, is well,if I can't talk to her, how is
she gonna know?
And I'm like, well, you're gonnaadhere to boundaries for one
thing, you're gonna stopbellyaching about the fact you
can't talk to her, you're gonnabe sad, right?
Because sin has consequences andwe can be sad about that.
But you're not going to be, youknow, how much longer, right?
You're not gonna be putting atimeline on it.
(42:03):
You're going to see that thereis real harm.
And if they are never able toget past the harm because it's
so bad, then you are going tolove them well enough to leave
them alone.
And that is actually evidence ofheart change.
And amongst other things, that'sjust one example.
And so you will see consistencyover time.
(42:24):
You will see deference to theautonomy of another over time.
So a pastor that doesn't lordover can be talked to.
I have a buddy of mine, he is awonderful friend and pastor.
If I were to hear a sermon ofhis and been like, dude, what
was that?
That I've questioned.
And I were to call him up and belike, hey man, I got a question
(42:46):
about that.
He's gonna be like, oh, okay.
And he's either gonna explain itand be like, oh, this is what I
was thinking.
Oh, I didn't say that very well,or I'm gonna be like, oh, okay,
I just totally heard thatthrough my own lens or whatever.
And we're gonna work through it.
And he's not gonna be offendedthat I had a question.
He's not going to say, you'renot bowing to my authority and
you're making it difficult to bea pastor or any other of the
(43:06):
things that get pulled out inthat space, right?
And he's going to hear it withhumility.
And he's going to, if he messessomething up, go, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry.
And it's not just going to belike lip service, I'm sorry,
pretty words, I'm sorry.
It's going to be, and I don't dothat again.
And that is one of theindicators is can you just be
(43:27):
you?
Are you perceived as too much ifyou ask questions?
And this is particularly true ofI think our sisters in the
church, because that can be avery, and I'm not saying this
doesn't happen to men, but Ihear it more from women that if
you bring something up, if youassert your voice, then you're
called aggressive or difficultor divisive when you're really
(43:47):
not.
Or I've been called the Jezebelspirit once or twice, which is
ridiculous.
And it's not evenhermeneutically correct, quite
frankly, which is veryobnoxious.
You're gonna exegete the Bible,do it correctly.
Good hermeneutics, man.
But all of those things give youinformation about where a system
(44:08):
is, and that doesn't mean youcan't stay in it.
Sometimes we stay in it to tryto change systems because God
hasn't told us to leave.
There, there's that.
But going back to hope, the hopeisn't in the system, right?
The hope's in God.
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (44:25):
Correct.
I love what you said there,Tabitha.
I think oh, it just brings up somuch for me.
I want to add my exclamationpoint to what you just said
about the difference betweenforgiveness and reconciliation.
And I think that oftentimeswe're not taught about
(44:45):
boundaries or understand whatboundaries are within church
spaces, and also justunderstanding that boundaries
are about safety, it's not aboutcontrol.
So, with any good tool, it canbe weaponized.
And like I said, we go intoextremes.
Like, this is my boundary.
We're just avoiding that, butthat being said, for me
(45:09):
personally, I had to do somedisentangling in my life with
boundaries feeling selfish,boundaries feeling like I'm not
willing to go the second mile.
I'm not willing to beChrist-like.
Instead of learning boundariesare actually an essential way
(45:31):
that I am honoring my humannessand my limits for my safety, for
my well-being, and even honoringwhen God is asking me to not try
to be all things to all people.
And so boundaries are a reallyimportant piece of this.
And so paying attention to howour boundaries are honored or
(45:53):
not honored is a reallyimportant indicator.
And then the other thing Iwanted to mention is a
difference between toxic shameand I'll say like healthy
embarrassment or like a gift ofa type of shame.
Because what I've seen is whenthere's a discovery, sometimes
(46:18):
the person who was acting out orcreated the injury, they can
appear very remorseful.
And yet there's also adiscernment of whether they are
operating out of a toxic shameof like they were discovered and
now they're terrified of losingthe connections and the people
(46:39):
around them, but they're stillnot entering into the real pain
of the person that they haveharmed.
They're flooded with their ownfeelings of shame and
insecurity.
And then it still looks likedrawing people to rescue them
(47:00):
and make them feel okay andbetter.
And so I was talking withsomebody who's walking through
early journey of being abetrayed, of experiencing a
partner betrayal injury.
And the person who had hadinflicted this injury had
reached out and wanted toapologize.
(47:23):
And she said, I am not ready forthat conversation.
In part, she wasn't seeingrepentance, she wasn't seeing
that person get into their ownwork, but rather bling out of
their toxic shame into trying tomake everything okay very
quickly so they wouldn't have tofeel the pain.
So when she set that boundaryand said, No, I'm not ready for
(47:47):
that conversation, he sent herthe apology text, anyways.
Well, I just need you to knowwhat is it really about?
And at first, that was a littleconfusing.
And I said, that is a boundaryviolation.
You said no, that was about thatperson.
That is about that person, andthat's an indication that
(48:08):
there's that toxic shame.
And I think about, I believeit's the Apostle Paul
differentiates godly sorrowversus worldly sorrow.
Godly sorrow leads us to arepentance, a returning to
ourselves, brokenhearted beforethe Lord.
(48:30):
And that's actually what leadsto life.
Very powerful.
Worldly sorrow, and I'm going totag that into this like toxic
shame leads to death becauseshame is a form of death.
It's a cutting off of who weactually are and the truth of
who God said we were and are andwho we are meant to be.
(48:50):
Shame always produces death,toxic shame always produces
death.
So it's very common for afterdiscovery there to be a lot of
toxic shame.
And I just want to say in thisspace, too, that you might hear
the apology and be like, well,okay, I think I'm supposed to
forgive.
And that can be brought forwardtoo soon in the process.
(49:12):
And oftentimes we need todiscern between the toxic shame
and if it's coming out of aplace of grounded reality, of I
am now entering into the painthat my actions and behaviors
caused.
And it feels different.
We just feel it different.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00 (49:32):
Yes.
And a difference in that, evenin that scenario, would be, I
want to apologize to you.
And the person saying, I'm notready.
I'm not ready for that.
And they will notice thebetrayer would notice in them
all of the feelings, right?
Because that might not feelgood.
But instead of doing it anyway,they're going to get curious
about the big feelings.
And then they're going to calltheir therapist and say, I don't
(49:56):
know what's going on.
Sometimes we don't, right?
When we're wrestling withfeelings, they might be new and
they might say, This feelsreally awful.
And I feel like I need to dosomething.
There's the urge, right?
I always encourage people tolook at their tubes, their
thoughts, urges, behaviors,emotions, and sensations.
And so they might get real withtheir tubes and go, there's a
strong urge here to send itanyway.
(50:18):
But I know that violating thatboundary is unloving.
They said no.
And no means no.
It's a complete sentence.
You don't need anything elsewith that.
And so then they can take thatdiscomfort to their therapist
and wrestle through what'shappening for them and work
through resolution of what'shappening in their heart with
it.
And that is a difference in thatscenario going well or not going
(50:42):
well.
And that gives an indicatorabout where real repentance is
at.
Because sometimes betrayers wantto keep their shadow kingdom and
they don't know yet how to giveit up or they really love it.
And this is another thing.
And this might be hard forsurvivors who are listening to
understand is that there is agrief in giving up the Shadow
(51:04):
Kingdom because it has been asource of comfort, control,
power, a million differentthings.
Yeah.
And so to say, I'm going todismantle it and tear it down is
scary.
Now that doesn't mean that youhave to stay and wait for them
to do it either, right?
This is that tension, right?
The tension of the both, and ifthey can go do their work, and
(51:26):
that doesn't mean you have tostick around and wait and see if
they do, right?
That can be between them andJesus because it's their walk.
And so that's a tricky placewhen in your heart, because who
gets into a relationship and islike, I'd like it to explode and
end in betrayal and abuse.
And that sounds like super fun.
Nobody.
So a lot of betrayed partnersare hopeful that their partner's
(51:49):
going to change.
And I think that's another placeto just dive us back into hope
of what are you hoping in?
It is okay to hope for change.
It is okay to pray for change.
It is okay to fast.
It is okay to do all of thosethings, but to be open hand with
the outcome.
SPEAKER_01 (52:06):
Right.
And to focus on what that lookslike for our own.
So that I see a lot of hope forthose who if I have watched
people who have been betrayedwalk through a hard, honest
journey and say, Jenny, I can'tbelieve I'm saying this now, but
(52:31):
I'm at a place where I mean thegrief still hits me, but I feel
calm.
I feel like I know myself betterthan I've ever.
And I think I actually do feelsome of that hope again.
And I've walked with thebetrayer who has thought there's
(52:55):
no way forward.
I that shadow side is too muchof me.
It's caused too much damage, butwho has been willing to do the
real work?
And I love how you talked abouthow there is a grief component
that can come up because I thinkwe need to understand that it's
the function of the behavior.
Like you said, no one enters amarriage thinking, I want to
(53:18):
destroy and create a lot of painor relationship or connection,
even if it's even if we're nottalking about marriage, it's not
the heart's desire, it's a wayof coping and trying to control.
And so it can a lot of timesthose strategies are very
ancient and old and were learnedas young kids, and then they
(53:42):
evolve.
And so it's a toxin, it's atumor, it has to be addressed,
and yet it can feel really scaryas there is this truly looking
at that shadow kingdom andsaying, okay, I learned for a
long time that this brought meprotection, and now I have to
walk a different route, but thatmeans I have to cut this off,
(54:05):
and that feels terrifying.
And yet I've seen just thebeauty and the hope that's come
for through that.
And yet we can't do that workfor someone else.
And so I think just encouragingthe person who is a survivor who
has experienced that pain, justlike you said, it is beautiful
(54:27):
to give prayers of hope andwanting there to be change, and
yet fixing one's eyes on Jesusin front of you and within you,
and not trying to do that workfor the other person, letting
their choices and theirbehaviors be their own, and then
(54:48):
reliable behavior over time canshow you in the future.
And yet, that also might meanthat the healthiest thing is to
not walk together in any kind ofrelationship, but still to
pursue that freedom of heartthrough forgiveness, which is
not the same as we talked aboutbefore, as reconciliation.
(55:09):
And so I think just being ablehaving there can be a lot of
pain and grief for having to letgo of I so badly wanted them to
choose a different path, but Ican't do that work for them.
I have to do the work formyself.
SPEAKER_00 (55:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that applies to bothaddictive behaviors and abusive
behaviors.
And so one of the things I sayoften is all addiction is
abusive because you are harminganother person, right?
Betrayal trauma, as we said, isawful.
It can cause PTSD.
(55:47):
And there's a difference betweensomeone who is abusive in their
behavior in their addiction andsomeone who is a coercive
controller.
Those are two different things.
And there's overlap because someof the behaviors might be the
same, particularly aroundprocess addiction, like sex
addiction.
The way they fundamentally seethe other party is as property,
(56:09):
not as a person.
And I think that's just a gooddistinction to make because I
know for so many people, andthis is one of the reasons I
actually became a CSAT, was Igot really tired of pastors
telling me, well, they're justaddicted.
And I'm like, well, that's notwhat the science says, but okay.
And so I was like, well, I'lljust go get my CSAT, then I'll
have more street cred so I canhave these conversations, which
is literally why I got it.
(56:30):
And I love it.
I'm so glad that I did.
And I look at that and I look atthe men I've worked with who are
addicted but not coercivelycontrolling, they're not what I
would call an abuser.
They have been abusive and theirheart is broken and they are
hurting over the pain that theycause their partner.
So even if we have to breakthrough denial and work out
(56:52):
their three circles and all ofthe things, there's a different
vibe, if you will.
The heart is very different.
And in someone who's a coercivecontroller who's like, well,
they owe me sex and they owe methis, and I can ask them to make
pornography.
And I can't get, why are yousaying this?
This is ridiculous.
Of course I'll die if I don'thave sex every 72 hours.
And some of the other thingsthat I have heard out loud of
(57:14):
people's lips where I'm like,wow, that's that's an
interesting take that is not inthe Bible.
And so it's a very differentheart where you have to deal
with entitlement in a differentway than you would if I'm
walking with someone who is notcoercively controlling but is
abusive in their addiction.
And that can be profoundlytricky for the betrayed partner
because they don't often knowwhere the other person is
(57:35):
because they can say prettywords and maybe they're giving
them a carrot when it's likethey're doing this thing.
I asked them to do the dishesfor 73 years and now they're
finally doing it.
Everything is fine now.
And it's it's not fine.
And so it can be really hard fora betrayed partner to know which
way is up.
SPEAKER_01 (57:52):
Right.
Absolutely.
And I think that's why it's soimportant to slow things down
and take a step back and reallyjust like we talked about before
when you said getting out intonature and really attuning back
to one's own self, God withinthat sight of his protection,
(58:17):
because space will often helpwith clarifying what you're
looking at.
And you can usually feel thedifference.
I mean, you can feel whenthere's a genuine repentance
versus this controllingmanipulative, though it's
usually really hard to tell thedifference at first, especially
(58:39):
when, like you said, there'sbeen so much pain around maybe
feelings of neglect or what'sbeen absent.
So when it seems like it'sshowing up, it feels so good.
Of course it does.
Of course it does.
And there's that desire to hopein an outcome.
They're changing, this ishappening.
I don't know, maybe, butunhooking our hope from a
(59:00):
particular outcome, yes, andagain anchor it like hooking it
into what are fundamentaltruths, what are fundamental
truths?
And for me, my fundamentaltruths that makes the chaotic
world feel a little less scaryand dark is I just believe that
(59:24):
creator God is good and thathe's infinite, which means
mathematically, goodness isinfinite and is the greater
reality when he says, I'm makingall things new.
And you're talking aboutparadox.
(59:44):
Jesus, he embraces the ultimate,he is the ultimate both and both
God and man.
Both God and man.
That just baffles my brain, andso he wept and he lamented, and
he had to leave people and spendtime alone.
(01:00:05):
He had to go, he was in lonely,desolate places, he was on
mountaintops praying, he alsoenjoyed good food and left her
with those that the religiousleaders thought he should not
have been.
He violated so many of thereligious norms and shoulds.
(01:00:26):
And so I think I just want tobring back like that center of I
think as we're talking aboutwhat's up and what's down, and
it gets so confusing.
It's this anchoring back intowhat is the fundamental truth,
and how do I hold the both andboth grief and gift?
(01:00:49):
And that means spending sometime in the lament.
I mean, like, this is not whereI thought my life would be.
I like parts language, I thinkit's really helpful.
A part of me feels reallyembarrassed.
Like, how did I end up here?
A part of me feels like it's myfault, and I'm just so deeply
(01:01:11):
disappointed.
And hanging out in that space.
And this is not the end of thestory, the story's not written.
And what is also true I have mybreath today, I have life today.
(01:01:32):
Sometimes it's just enough tosay, I got out of bed today and
I brushed my teeth.
And I'm doing the next rightthing.
And so when we can hold theboth, and sometimes we need to
spend a little bit more time inthe grief, and sometimes we need
to get out of that and bringsome healthy containment to, and
say, Okay, I'm gonna dosomething that makes me laugh,
(01:01:54):
even though I don't feel likedoing that.
And so over time there gets tobe this recalibration and
healing, and it's just reallybeautiful because Revelation 21
5 Behold, I am making all thingsnew, and that is a monument.
For me, that re-anchors me againand again when I'm looking
(01:02:16):
around and I'm like, Are yousure?
Are you sure?
And it's a practice and it's adaily thing, and there's grace
and there's compassion, but it'salso really powerful.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02:30):
Yeah.
And that is a great place for usto land this plane.
And what I'm thinking about whenyou said that behold, I am
making all things new, my braininitially went to that is a
perfect breath prayer.
Because I'm a fan of breathprayers.
I think that they are so goodbecause our breath can be very
(01:02:51):
regulating.
It can really help us calm someof what's going on inside our
physiology and also anchor us intruth.
And I remember a story that Iheard from Bob Goff, like, I
don't know, it's been a billionyears now.
But he talks about settinganchor.
And you can just throw an anchorout there, but if it's not
hooked into anything, you'restill going to get tossed around
(01:03:11):
a bit in the waves.
It's going to move your boat.
But if you set your anchor, itstays and the waves can come and
go, and the tide will go in andout, and you will not go with
it, which is what we are goingfor here.
And so behold, I am making allthings new as a breath prayer,
is a great way to set youranchor because you're going to
sit with that, you're going tosavor it, you're going to
(01:03:32):
breathe into it, and you'regoing to let your body feel a
little something of it.
And even if it's imperfect,right?
We see imperfectly the side ofheaven, the side of Eden.
But we can reorient to it.
So if I was going to leadsomeone in a breath of prayer,
it would be breathing in throughbehold and breathing out nice
(01:03:53):
and slow, for I am making allthings new.
And so I would just encouragethe listeners, if you haven't
tried that, give that one a try.
And Jenny, thank you so much forbeing here.
This has been such a delight asI knew it would be.
I have been dying for thisconversation.
Thank you so much for hangingout with us.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04:14):
That's beautiful, Tabitha.
I am just soaking in that breathprayer right now as I'm hearing
you speak it out loud.
I can feel my nervous systemdrawing in the behold and
breathing through my whole body.
I am making all things new.
And that's just really anchoringfor me today.
So it's been such a joy and aprivilege for me.
(01:04:36):
And I look forward to acontinuation.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04:40):
Thank you so much.
And thank you guys for beinghere with us on this week's Hey
Tabby.
And we will for sure see younext time.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of Hey Tabby.
If you're looking for a resourcethat I mentioned in the show and
you want to check out the shownotes, head on over to
tabithawestbrook.com forwardslash hey tabby.
(01:05:01):
That's H E Y T A C I, and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk
about the hard things out loudwith our actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how tointersect with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here, andwe are not tapers and calmly in
the morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(01:01):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now, let's get going.
Welcome to this week's episodeof Hey Tappy, and I am super
(01:22):
excited to have a friend herewith me.
This is Dr.
Jenny Bayless.
She is a licensed marriage andfamily therapist and the program
chair of Fuller TheologicalSeminary's Marriage and Family
Therapy Graduate Program at theArizona Regional Campus.
Her clinical experiences includeworking at the Meadows, which is
an inpatient treatment centerfor trauma and addiction, as
(01:44):
well as working with couples andindividuals in a group private
practice.
She's a certified sex addictiontherapist, and we love that here
because you know I am too.
And she's also trained in EMDR.
Again, we love that here becauseI am too.
And emotionally focused therapy.
Jenny and I get along quitewell.
She specializes in traumahealing work and addressing
(02:07):
spiritual traumas and spiritualintegration.
She received her Doctor ofMinistry in Grief and Trauma,
which is such a cool doctorate.
Grief and Trauma Therapy fromPrimus University of Theology
and her Master of Science inMarriage and Family Therapy from
Fuller Theological Seminary.
So Jenny is amazing.
I am so excited that she is herewith us.
So welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
Thanks, Tabitha.
I'm so excited to be here and toconnect with you more.
I think there are some peoplethat when you meet them, there's
sort of an instant resonancewhere you feel like you're
connected on a soul level, evenif you don't know each other
very well.
And I felt that with you when Imet you at the restore
conference.
And then again when we reunitedat the ITAP Symposium.
(02:50):
So it's a joy to be with you onyour podcast today.
And I'm excited to talk abouthope.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
Hope is a four-letter word with actually
four letters, but like when Isay it that way, a lot of times
people think of it as profanity,especially if you are a survivor
of trauma.
When I heard you speak on hopeat Restore, I was like, more
people need to hear this.
It's so good.
So tell me about hope.
And we had talked a little bitbefore we started recording
(03:17):
about trying to find adefinition of hope.
So let's start there.
How would you describe it?
SPEAKER_01 (03:23):
It's so hard for me to um, you know, I think I keep
trying to find some sort ofnice, succinct working
definition.
And nothing settles because Ifeel like it doesn't quite
capture.
And I actually think that's thepoint.
I think that's what peopleshudder at is an oversimplified
(03:44):
definition of hope because itgives us connotation like
something's missing.
Oh, well, if you just had hope,if you had this thing, then
you'd be okay.
And hope is both a noun, it'salso a verb, it's relational,
(04:05):
it's a person, so it cannot bereduced to one specific thing.
So I'll just tell you how Iconceptualize hope for myself.
I think of it as a way ofseeing.
So I envision like hope goggles,and so this hope vision allows
(04:30):
me to see more realities andgreater truths than my eyes can
see without it.
The hope vision also requiresthat I see and touch pain, or
else it's I don't believe it'shope anymore.
(04:50):
I think it's wishful thinking,it has to be anchored in
reality.
And so I think of hope, my hopelens, as a way of seeing more
that gives power and agency andhealing.
That's actually very real, butit's not tied to a particular
(05:11):
outcome, it's actually moreanchored in who I am and God's
infinite, constant, eternalpresence within me and within
all of his creation.
That's not a simple definition,but that's how I am thinking
(05:31):
about hope.
SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
I love that, and I love that it is anchored in
reality.
I think that is where so manysurvivors have a hard time.
Okay, they're like, you don'tknow the pain that I'm standing
in, or the darkness, or thisblack cloud that I feel like
follows me.
And so, how can I have hope?
You know, because they doseparate it out from the current
(05:54):
moment, and it's supposed to bethis thing, this other, and it
is and it isn't.
So when you hear that, tell mewhat you start thinking about.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
I think about how something that I just believe is
the only way to transform painis to touch the wound.
And I think that's what Jesusshows us.
His resurrected body has scars,and he put out his hands, his
arms, and invited those who hesaw to touch them, to touch
(06:30):
those scars.
And hope was burst out of thatscar.
And so I have so muchcompassion.
I think that's the first thingthat comes out for me around I
think that initial feeling thatcan come up for survivors and
(06:50):
around feeling like this thingcalled hope is unattainable or
has betrayed them.
I can't I can't hope again.
I hoped before.
That's what got me into thismess.
That hope was a lie.
And yet, again, I think we haveto rethink how we're
understanding hope and to say,well, when we look at the
(07:17):
reality of our pain, and whenhope invites us to actually
touch that wound, be present toit, to grieve and to lament,
then there's often somethingthat's beautiful that's born of
that place when we see eachother, when we tell our stories
(07:37):
to one another, and are able tosay, I see you.
I also see your strengths, I seethings that you can't see in
yourself right now.
And that starts to birth thesebuds of okay, maybe it's not
about forcing the circumstancesto be different, but knowing no
(08:01):
matter what happens, I will beokay.
(09:38):
I can be okay.
It's a recentering withinoneself, and so I that's what
comes up for me, Tabitha.
Both compassion for probably thehope that has betrayed and the
hope that is disappointed, andthe hope that feels so out of
reach.
And I also feel hopeful thatokay, don't give up.
(10:02):
We can hold it for one another,too.
Of when we are relational andvulnerable in safe spaces, there
can be something beautifulthat's birthed from that that
goes beyond what a person candream or imagine.
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
I love that.
One of the things that, gosh,there's so much here.
One of the things that you said,you know, initially was like
hope not being in an outcome,but being within you.
And you just really went back tothat here now of hope being
something in us, regardless of,in some ways, what's happening
around us.
And I think as a clinician, andyou probably see this too, that
(10:41):
we come in with people who havesaid, I hoped in a thing.
I hoped in my marriage changingand it exploded.
I hoped in my child being healedand that didn't happen.
I hoped in fill in the blank,right?
And so, where is God?
You know, because thecircumstances didn't go that
way.
So talk about that.
(11:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:06):
This, what you're talking about right now, Tabata,
I think is one of the reasonsI'm so obsessed with trying to
dig deeper into hope andunderstand.
I grew up as a pastor'sdaughter, I grew up in the
church, and there was so muchabout that experience for me
that was helpful, beneficial,and also that I am teasing out
(11:31):
now.
And so thinking about especiallyearly times in my life and my
early professional career,personal situations and
professional situations where Ijust tried so hard to will a
type of outcome that would beevidence of my faith and hope of
(11:54):
well, God, you say that nothingis impossible for you.
And so I'd pray, I'd geteverybody around me to pray, I'd
fast, I'd go to the mountains,I'd I would just take out every
single spiritual tool that Icould possibly think of to try
(12:15):
to bring life to a heartsituation to try to remove pain.
And I felt crushed when Icouldn't.
When I was 19, my dad got reallysick.
He developed chronic pain andsomething called akathesia,
which is a movement disorderthat can often be triggered by
(12:38):
psychotropic drugs.
And it sent him into kind of ahorror show for the next three
years.
And as a 19-year-old, I felt sohelpless and powerless.
I was going to college out ofstate, and so I'd call my mom
and I would just hear just thepain in her voice.
(12:59):
So she would tell me about theblessing stars in the night sky
that God would give her.
To make his pain go away.
Hence the fasting and thepraying and the getting everyone
(13:23):
else to pray.
And one time I called him upthat I was like trying to exhort
him like, what are yourspiritual gifts?
And it doesn't matter if you'rein pain, you can be have
purposeful work, anyways.
Or thinking, how can I forcejoy, force light into that dark
space?
Well, as a daughter, I was like,Oh, my dad loves when he gets to
(13:46):
hear stories of his daughter'ssuccess.
So I made sure to graduatesumakum laude from my college in
the honors program, and youknow, that gave a temporary
dopamine high to a proud father,and then it changed nothing.
And so I had to learn thisradical surrender, and it's such
(14:09):
a painful process because it'sso confusing, it's so confusing,
and I think just embracing that,like I remember crying out to
God and being like, You say thatlook at the lilies of the
fields, and if God cares forthem and he cares so much more
(14:30):
for us, won't he take care ofyou so well too?
It just felt like, well, I'mlooking around and I'm not
seeing what I'm not seeing caredfor lilies.
It feels that way, or it wouldfeel arbitrary, like, well, it
seems like this person has amiracle story, and this person,
their story just leads to death.
And it's hard to make sense of.
(14:51):
We are constantly trying to makesense of things, we are
meaning-making creatures, ithelps us to feel safer when we
can make sense of.
We want to know the why.
And so I think a big piece ishaving to put down that
understanding the why, andstarting with the what the what
(15:13):
is this is incredibly painfuland heartbreaking, and being
present to that, and thatthere's this invitation to grief
and to lament and to presencethat has to happen first, and
then what can be found often inthat place is the peace that
(15:38):
transcends understanding.
And so I had a client who said,you know, I do not have hope
that my earthly relationshipwith my father will be healthy
or change.
That is not something I havehope about anymore.
(15:58):
But I do have hope that nomatter what happens or the
status of our relationship inthis lifetime, I'm okay.
I can be okay.
That is liberating, and that'sthe type of hope that I'm
talking about here, and I thinkwe're talking about that is so
(16:20):
needed.
It has to move away from areally well-intentioned
19-year-old trying to will anoutcome out of desperation and
love for her dad.
Like I have so much great loveand compassion for who I was and
what I was trying to do.
And that exhausted me.
And I was getting burnt out andangry and cynical.
(16:42):
I felt betrayed.
I felt like it wasn't working,something must be wrong with me.
And instead, I had to learn howto surrender and sit and look
inward and just connect with myown agency and power within who
God created me to be and wrestlewith the this feels unfair.
(17:02):
And no, I'm held in that place,and that's okay.
Be mad, be pissed, be like bereal.
That's welcome.
It's so welcome, despitemessages we receive around anger
and in the church often.
And finding that my hope was notanchored to the outcome of
(17:23):
whether my dad was sick or well,it was anchored to a God who
says he's making all things new.
And that's where the lens has tocome in because I can't just see
what I'm seeing around.
It just looks like chaos.
We have to fight to see how allthings are being made new.
(17:44):
And I think our site for that,Tabitha, is so often in the
personal stories.
It's the you said, Oh, I'mhearing amazing stories, right?
And your face lit up, and Icould just see like it's a
treasure and like how specialthat is to you.
As I don't even know what thosestories are, I just know they're
treasures to your heart ofpeople's pain connecting with
(18:06):
feeling seen and really havinghope.
And I think that's the places wesee all things new coming in.
Sorry, I'm a preacher'sdaughter, so now I'm just I I
love it.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
I love it.
And also, I'm a preacher'sdaughter, so like go.
I love it.
I love it also when we can diveinto those deep waters because
what I'm hearing, one of myfavorite concepts is dialectics,
two things that are opposite andcan be synthesized.
And I'm hearing the tension ofthe spiritual disciplines that
(18:37):
are good, right?
Praying, fasting, reading theBible, encouraging others to
pray, praying for things.
It says, boldly come before thethrone of grace and just ask
God, right?
And the tension of we may notget what we want.
You know, we may not get what weare, you know, and hope it's
like love.
It's one of those words that canmean everything or nothing,
(18:58):
depending on the context, right?
So I might be hoping in anoutcome or hoping for an
outcome, but what am I hopingin?
You know, and I think thosemight be a little bit different.
How would you think about that?
SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
Yeah.
I love what you said about thedialectics.
Because I feel like so much oflife is actually learning to
embrace paradox.
And I really believe that hoperequires that we stand in the
tension of personal agency anddivine mystery.
(19:35):
I think that's where we have tostand.
And it's a tension because thereis personal responsibility and
agency and choice, and we arenot nearly as in control as we
like to think we are.
And so I think uh embracing thatparadox.
(20:01):
And the other thing I think thatcomes up for me, Tabitha, as I'm
hearing you share, because Ithink, okay, well, how do we
embrace it, right?
For me, I think that starts withreally having an attunement with
our personal intuition and theplace of just God's presence and
(20:22):
spirit within.
We are told that we have hisspirit, we are told that we have
the mind of Christ.
That's incredibly powerful.
And I think so often the noiseof everything around us is so
loud that we lose sight andsense of that deeper knowing.
(20:43):
And so turning down the volumeof all the outside noises and
learning to turn up the volumeof our own deep intuition, that
place of knowing.
It's hard almost to describe inwords like, how do I know it's
my intuition, or just not allthoughts are helpful, not all
feelings are helpful.
(21:05):
And yeah, we usually know, likewhen somebody says something, it
just feels intuitive.
There's usually a feeling ofpeace there.
It feels like a deeper knowing,it feels like it comes from a
deeper place, like down in thegut.
No, a lot of the science and theneuroscience that's coming out
also supports that.
(21:25):
And yeah, we'll hear it.
Like, I'll feel it for myselfwhile our hearts clients say,
like, I'll say, okay, so Ithat's the lie.
Like, what's the truth?
Or what do you want the truth tobe?
Like, what do you think?
Let's check in with yourintuition.
Like the message I'm gettingfrom my intuition is it's
actually I'm actually gonna beokay.
(21:46):
I don't I don't know if I canfeel the truth of that yet, but
there's some part of me thatdoes.
And usually when I ask, where doyou notice that in your body?
They'll say it's like deep downin here.
And so I think as we tune in,that's where there's this anchor
(22:07):
spot, that's where there is thispiece that can help the chaos to
look different, to feeldifferent, and it also gives us
wisdom and discernment of whatis helpful for us to see and
hear, and where there's healthyboundaries and limits because
our minds were never created totake in all that we have access
(22:30):
to see, especially in now ourday with technology.
And so it takes wisdom to knowwhat we need to look at that we
don't want to look at.
What does it mean to not be anavoidance?
And how do we also not becomeflooded in the chaos, which
tends to just cause us to freezeand shut down and overwhelm,
(22:52):
anyways?
So that's really where I want toencourage.
I think it's a practice oftuning in to God's spirit within
and our own intuition created byhim.
SPEAKER_00 (23:02):
Yeah.
And that's a skill.
It's an actual skill.
You know, what we're talkingabout from a theological
perspective, if we want to putit in nerdy terms, is the now
and the not yet.
So that should sound reallyfamiliar to a lot of folks who
have been in the Christian walkfor a while.
And you don't just get away fromthe noise.
You can't just go, and nowtoday, this is what I'm gonna
(23:24):
do.
You know, if you've never doneit before, you have to learn.
And if you've been told throughabusive situations that you're
not able to hear from God or youdon't know how to, or you have
learned to doubt your intuitionbecause of abuse or deep harm in
a relationship, you may have torelearn it.
And that's okay.
One of the things I tell a lotof my clients is get out in
(23:46):
nature.
There's a ton of data out therethat nature, first of all, by
itself is very healing andhelpful, and it is automatically
going to reduce some noisebecause you're not gonna have as
many screens or inputs andthings like that.
So I've had clients go towherever they're comfortable in
terms of going out in nature.
Like there are people who arelike, I am not going for a walk
(24:07):
in the woods.
The bugs and the bears arefrightening, or you know, and
they're just they're not likeoutdoorsy humans.
And it's like you can go to apark with paved trails, like
there's a lot of options here.
And so I just encourage them tofind what fits for them and
bring something like a playlistthat has like binaural music on
it or certain frequencies,because God has created us
(24:29):
really fun and really cool interms of the somatic things that
can help us engage.
And so listening to some of thatmusic and just taking a few
minutes.
And if it's scary because whenwe slow down, stuff starts
talking, you know, our bodiesstart telling us what's going on
and our minds may go lots ofplaces, but to do that from a
place of compassion and kindnessto self and to say, I might have
(24:53):
a lot of things that come up,and if I feel overwhelmed by it,
I'm gonna take some breaths, I'mgonna look at a tree or a lake
or a flower or something, andjust give my attention to that
for a minute, right?
And let everything start to slowdown.
And you might be able to do thatfor 60 seconds one day, and then
as you practice it, you're gonnabe able to do it for longer
(25:15):
periods of time.
And then you will start to hearthe presence of God that lives
within you in your actualphysical body.
You know, he does say we areindwelled, that is all of us,
and start to have thatexperience, and it doesn't have
to be perfect.
God knows what we're made of,and he's so gentle and kind as
he enters in.
SPEAKER_01 (25:36):
Right.
Oh, I love it.
We're getting into how trauma isstored in the body and how
holistic healing.
I think that's aware.
I mean, I'm in Arizona, and sothere's a mountain that is like
nine minutes from my house.
It's about a three and a halfmile trail.
(25:57):
And from the time I was young,we'd go there and I call it my
thinking mountain.
And I told my husband, I'm like,if you don't, if you ever don't
really know where I am, I'mprobably on my thinking
mountain.
And so a couple weeks ago,actually, he asked me what I
wanted to do on a Saturday.
I'm like, I just feel like Ineed to go outside and smell a
(26:18):
rock.
Think you're smelling the desertsage.
I don't think it's the rocks.
It's just being in that space,Tabitha.
And you're so right, becausewhat is so heartbreaking with
some of the injuries that traumacauses, especially when it's
(26:39):
relational trauma.
So somebody that was trustedthat was supposed to be someone
safe is actually the inflictorof harm.
It destroys typically that senseof confidence in oneself and
(27:00):
ability to hear oneself.
And it can be so confusing.
And I think that something I'venoticed both in my own life and
as I've journeyed with otherpeople in with my clients and in
different spaces, is there's avery natural tendency for us to
(27:20):
want to rush the process or tobe really judgmental and harsh
with ourselves.
Or I'll hear, like, oh man, Iwas doing good and now I'm doing
bad, or I'm going backwards.
And that's not how that works.
It's not, it's part of thejourney of honoring our body in
(27:42):
what's coming up, and I thinkreally recognizing what might
feel like small minute wins.
You said there might just becapacity to be still with
oneself for 60 seconds andcelebrate that.
That's huge.
That's building a new muscle,that's building a new
neuropathway, that's allowinggreater connection.
(28:05):
And so often, the especiallythose relational injuries,
there's years often of messagesand and a reinforcement of oh
no, don't listen to yourself.
You can't trust your ownintuition.
Oh, your desires are deceitful.
(28:26):
You can't trust yourself, trustthis authority, let them usurp
anything coming up for yourself.
This external source of yourknowledge and everything you
need to be okay.
And that is so dangerous.
And I think part of theconversation you and I had after
(28:47):
Restore was I think for us whoend up becoming clinicians or
helpers or leaders, it's burstout of a genuine place to help,
right?
Like, of course, we want towelcome people through healing.
I hope, I hope that's what isname.
I hope that for a lot of people,right?
But I'll give the benefit of thedoubt.
(29:07):
Like, I think that's genuinelywhat brings us into this space.
And we have to be careful notreenact that power dynamic of I
am now in a place of authority.
Let me tell you what to do toheal.
And I learned that I used to tryand source people's hope.
(29:29):
That's what I thought was thegood Christ-like thing to do.
Jesus healed, Jesus saved, hemultiplied, he fed, he did all
these things, be like Christ.
I misunderstood that to meanthat I was to source people's
(29:49):
hope.
And so when that wasn't, I mean,it was just exhausting.
And also just didn't work.
Like I said with my dad, Icouldn't source his hope.
I was not the source of it.
I'm just one of the sheep, notthe shepherd.
And so at first, I just thought,oh, it's because I don't, I'm
not trained well enough.
I don't have the right hopetool.
(30:12):
So, you know, you got yourmaster's, and then you get your
doctorate, and then you go toall these trainings, and you
have all these acronyms afteryour day because one of these
trainings will revolutionize thehealing process and it will give
me the hope tool that I've beenmissing all along.
And then you come to find out,like it all kind of starts to
sound a little bit the same, andthat I was confusing my role of
(30:38):
trying to be the source ofpeople's hope, which is actually
really dangerous, because thenif I'm trying to force feed you
hope, Tabitha, I'm denying yourpower and agency all over again,
even with good intentions, asopposed to being a hope holder.
So I think about it like I havethis flashlight, and I'm going
(31:03):
to shine this light on what Isee in you and through you and
around you.
And I'm just gonna continue totell you what I see until you
can connect with the hope thatis already present within you,
the worthiness and value that'salready present within you, the
resources that are alreadypresent within you.
(31:27):
Because trauma does not make aperson broken, it's an injury,
so there needs to be healing,and yet oftentimes it's not
seen.
Oh no, I have this within me,and so I've literally said, I
know you can't feel or see hopefor yourself right now.
(31:48):
That's okay.
I'm going to shine my flashlightand I'm just gonna hold it for
you until you can hold it foryourself.
It's not gonna be for me.
I'm not the source.
You are, but you don't know thatyet.
And so when we reflect to eachother what we see and we
celebrate, 60 seconds?
Are you kidding me?
You sat with yourself for 60seconds.
(32:10):
That's awesome.
And most people are like, Okay,I Wasn't going to give myself a
medal for that.
Like we they miss it.
People miss, and that's wherethat non-judgmental kindness
needs to come in.
The Bible says it's his kindnessthat leads us to repentance.
What's repentance?
It's a returning to ourselves.
unknown (32:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:32):
Repentance means returning to ourselves.
So that's really something thatI think is important to my heart
that I just wanted to expresshere is we can have
well-intentioned desires tobring hope to people.
But to be really careful thatwe're not operating out of a
(32:52):
source, which only reinforces amessage of something is missing
in you, but rather doing theopposite, which only reinforces,
oh, I can learn to tune in withmyself.
And that's where so much freedomcomes, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00 (33:11):
I agree completely.
Like as therapists, I think ourjob in so many ways is to give
away our power, right?
Is to give it to the client tosay, this is your space.
This is a place where you have avoice and autonomy, especially
when it's been taken awaythrough traumatic experiences
and abuse.
But our role is hope holder insome ways and hope shiner
(33:32):
lighter honor, which is not aword, but it is now.
And I've told clients, I'm gonnahold hope for you until you hold
it for you.
And then we'll hold it together,you know?
And that's the main goal is forthem to see who they are, who
they really are, not who they'vebeen told that they are, not who
they might believe that theyare, because of a million
different reasons, but who theyreally are in Christ.
(33:56):
And that's one of my favoritethings about EMDR is you're
taking, and this is how Idistill it down for believers a
lot.
You're taking all of the thingsthat are not true about you that
God did not say, and we'removing you toward all the things
that are true about you and Godactually did say.
And that's the essence of thenegative cognition to the
positive cognition in EMDR, inmy opinion.
(34:17):
And we're saying, like you arestanding in darkness and you
can't see the light, but I'mgonna hold the light.
I'm gonna show you where thelight is, who the light is, and
I'm gonna help you walk thereuntil you can walk there on your
own.
We're going together.
And that is one of the beautiesof the therapeutic relationship,
is that we are walking with ourclients out of the valley of the
(34:39):
shadow of death, realistically.
And it's one of the beauties ofhealthy community.
And for people who've beenharmed in community,
particularly faith-basedcommunities, that's scary.
Like, what do you mean you wantme to be in the in community?
And I hope they don't callthemselves Christians.
Because goodness gracious, likethose are some scary people
sometimes.
And yes, some of them are.
(35:00):
That's realistic, but not all ofthem.
And some are very good people.
I remember a million years ago afriend of mine saying, because I
was definitely very Pollyanna,if you're a Christian, then you
must be a wonderful humanbecause that's how you're
supposed to be, right?
And I had no understanding ofwolves.
And I remember my friend tellingme, Tabitha, sheep have sharp
(35:21):
teeth sometimes.
And then having some of thoseexperiences where it was like,
oh yes, yes, they do.
And some of them aren't actuallysheep.
Oh goodness.
And so that can make somebodyreally scared to step back into
community and to put themselvesout there and to be vulnerable
because they don't want to getbitten again.
And that makes so much sense.
(35:42):
And I love to normalize that formy clients.
Like, of course you feel thatway.
How could you not?
And how can we learn how to healthe broken bits so that our
people picker is a little bitbetter, right?
Because sometimes our peoplepicker gets broken and learn
different boundaries.
Cause sometimes in the church,we're not taught good
(36:03):
boundaries.
We're not taught healthyauthority.
We're not taught healthy pushingback against wicked authority.
We're not taught some of thosethings or to ask good questions
of the person in the pulpit.
And so we can learn to do thatand learn to find communities
that are safer.
And it look, nobody's going tobe perfect.
People be peoply sometimes.
And even really wonderful peoplecan do things that hurt your
(36:26):
feelings and that hurt you andyou have to work through them.
I think that's another piece ofhope for the younger generation
in particular, is the differencebetween someone who is wicked
and you have to have a verytight boundary, and someone who
hurt your feelings but isn'twicked and you can work through
(36:46):
that.
SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
Right.
Right.
Absolutely.
And I think that's an importantdistinction that can be
especially hard to differentiatewhen you're in the beginning,
more of the beginning stages ofthe healing process from a
severe injury.
And I think just normalizingtoo.
So what boundaries and safety isgonna look like in those first
(37:10):
six months in that first year islikely different than once
there's been some grounding andsome stabilization on board and
that reconnection with theintuition and God's spirit
within, which can help a lotwith that discernment.
I think about how a lot ofthere's not a lot of research
(37:39):
right now on religious trauma,and yet there's a growing body
of research around partnerbetrayal trauma, which really is
kind of the same thing.
Because again, you're talkingabout a safe person or system or
(38:00):
a leader that was supposed to bea source of support and safety
that becomes a source of paininjury and deceit.
And so the partner betrayaltrauma research just shows that
over 70% of partners who haveexperienced betrayal trauma
(38:25):
experience symptoms parallelwith PTSD.
And that's significant.
That's over the PTSD, over 70%.
And so one of the phrases we saya lot, and I'm sure you've heard
it, is we look for reliablebehavior over time.
(38:47):
Yes.
Reliable behavior over time.
And I think that as humans, weget caught in the pendulum
swings, right?
Every action, there's an equaland opposite reaction.
That is just how we tend to liveand react.
So it makes sense that there canbe starting in this place of
(39:10):
well, no, you just we just haveto forgive.
It doesn't matter what it is,you just have to forgive.
And if I'm looking for reliablebehavior over time, am I not
forgiving?
Or this pendulum swing into youguys are all wolves.
I am safest alone.
So I so much compassion forwhere those places are coming
(39:34):
from, but being able to noticeokay, wow, I have a really
strong protective part becauseit felt completely
underprotected before.
And so, what does it look liketo have even a small group of a
safe other?
Of course, I'm biased a goodtherapist.
(39:58):
Get with a good therapist, havethat support.
But when a nice way of testingand tracking when you're
evaluating for safety, it's notlooking for perfect behavior
every time over time, but thereliable, it's good enough.
Something doesn't have to hit100% of the time for it to be
(40:19):
reliable, but it better be morethan 30.
Right.
So if somebody is saying, yes,if somebody is saying
consistently, maybe it hasnothing, it feels like it has
nothing to do with things.
It's like, oh yeah, I'm gonnacome and I'm gonna help prepare
the coffee for the morningworship time, and they tend to
(40:40):
flake a lot, or they tend tojust in general say a lot of
things that their actions don'tmatch.
That's a good indication thatfor whatever reason, they're
probably not somebody who can bea source of reliability and
safety.
SPEAKER_02 (40:57):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
And so to pay attention to that.
SPEAKER_00 (41:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, I will say, andyou alluded to this, forgiveness
and reconciliation are not thesame thing.
I can forgive someone and putthem in the hands of a living
God and let God be theadjudicator.
I don't have to be.
That doesn't mean I have to betheir friend, and it doesn't
mean I have to be inrelationship with them.
(41:20):
That may not be wise, especiallyif there isn't real repentance
and a shift in heart behaviorover time.
And when you see a shift inheart behavior over time, it is
evident, it becomes evident.
So in destructive relationships,for example, one of the things I
hear often from destructive menin particular, because that's a
(41:42):
population I work with, is well,if I can't talk to her, how is
she gonna know?
And I'm like, well, you're gonnaadhere to boundaries for one
thing, you're gonna stopbellyaching about the fact you
can't talk to her, you're gonnabe sad, right?
Because sin has consequences andwe can be sad about that.
But you're not going to be, youknow, how much longer, right?
You're not gonna be putting atimeline on it.
(42:03):
You're going to see that thereis real harm.
And if they are never able toget past the harm because it's
so bad, then you are going tolove them well enough to leave
them alone.
And that is actually evidence ofheart change.
And amongst other things, that'sjust one example.
And so you will see consistencyover time.
(42:24):
You will see deference to theautonomy of another over time.
So a pastor that doesn't lordover can be talked to.
I have a buddy of mine, he is awonderful friend and pastor.
If I were to hear a sermon ofhis and been like, dude, what
was that?
That I've questioned.
And I were to call him up and belike, hey man, I got a question
(42:46):
about that.
He's gonna be like, oh, okay.
And he's either gonna explain itand be like, oh, this is what I
was thinking.
Oh, I didn't say that very well,or I'm gonna be like, oh, okay,
I just totally heard thatthrough my own lens or whatever.
And we're gonna work through it.
And he's not gonna be offendedthat I had a question.
He's not going to say, you'renot bowing to my authority and
you're making it difficult to bea pastor or any other of the
(43:06):
things that get pulled out inthat space, right?
And he's going to hear it withhumility.
And he's going to, if he messessomething up, go, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry.
And it's not just going to belike lip service, I'm sorry,
pretty words, I'm sorry.
It's going to be, and I don't dothat again.
And that is one of theindicators is can you just be
(43:27):
you?
Are you perceived as too much ifyou ask questions?
And this is particularly true ofI think our sisters in the
church, because that can be avery, and I'm not saying this
doesn't happen to men, but Ihear it more from women that if
you bring something up, if youassert your voice, then you're
called aggressive or difficultor divisive when you're really
(43:47):
not.
Or I've been called the Jezebelspirit once or twice, which is
ridiculous.
And it's not evenhermeneutically correct, quite
frankly, which is veryobnoxious.
You're gonna exegete the Bible,do it correctly.
Good hermeneutics, man.
But all of those things give youinformation about where a system
(44:08):
is, and that doesn't mean youcan't stay in it.
Sometimes we stay in it to tryto change systems because God
hasn't told us to leave.
There, there's that.
But going back to hope, the hopeisn't in the system, right?
The hope's in God.
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (44:25):
Correct.
I love what you said there,Tabitha.
I think oh, it just brings up somuch for me.
I want to add my exclamationpoint to what you just said
about the difference betweenforgiveness and reconciliation.
And I think that oftentimeswe're not taught about
(44:45):
boundaries or understand whatboundaries are within church
spaces, and also justunderstanding that boundaries
are about safety, it's not aboutcontrol.
So, with any good tool, it canbe weaponized.
And like I said, we go intoextremes.
Like, this is my boundary.
We're just avoiding that, butthat being said, for me
(45:09):
personally, I had to do somedisentangling in my life with
boundaries feeling selfish,boundaries feeling like I'm not
willing to go the second mile.
I'm not willing to beChrist-like.
Instead of learning boundariesare actually an essential way
(45:31):
that I am honoring my humannessand my limits for my safety, for
my well-being, and even honoringwhen God is asking me to not try
to be all things to all people.
And so boundaries are a reallyimportant piece of this.
And so paying attention to howour boundaries are honored or
(45:53):
not honored is a reallyimportant indicator.
And then the other thing Iwanted to mention is a
difference between toxic shameand I'll say like healthy
embarrassment or like a gift ofa type of shame.
Because what I've seen is whenthere's a discovery, sometimes
(46:18):
the person who was acting out orcreated the injury, they can
appear very remorseful.
And yet there's also adiscernment of whether they are
operating out of a toxic shameof like they were discovered and
now they're terrified of losingthe connections and the people
(46:39):
around them, but they're stillnot entering into the real pain
of the person that they haveharmed.
They're flooded with their ownfeelings of shame and
insecurity.
And then it still looks likedrawing people to rescue them
(47:00):
and make them feel okay andbetter.
And so I was talking withsomebody who's walking through
early journey of being abetrayed, of experiencing a
partner betrayal injury.
And the person who had hadinflicted this injury had
reached out and wanted toapologize.
(47:23):
And she said, I am not ready forthat conversation.
In part, she wasn't seeingrepentance, she wasn't seeing
that person get into their ownwork, but rather bling out of
their toxic shame into trying tomake everything okay very
quickly so they wouldn't have tofeel the pain.
So when she set that boundaryand said, No, I'm not ready for
(47:47):
that conversation, he sent herthe apology text, anyways.
Well, I just need you to knowwhat is it really about?
And at first, that was a littleconfusing.
And I said, that is a boundaryviolation.
You said no, that was about thatperson.
That is about that person, andthat's an indication that
(48:08):
there's that toxic shame.
And I think about, I believeit's the Apostle Paul
differentiates godly sorrowversus worldly sorrow.
Godly sorrow leads us to arepentance, a returning to
ourselves, brokenhearted beforethe Lord.
(48:30):
And that's actually what leadsto life.
Very powerful.
Worldly sorrow, and I'm going totag that into this like toxic
shame leads to death becauseshame is a form of death.
It's a cutting off of who weactually are and the truth of
who God said we were and are andwho we are meant to be.
(48:50):
Shame always produces death,toxic shame always produces
death.
So it's very common for afterdiscovery there to be a lot of
toxic shame.
And I just want to say in thisspace, too, that you might hear
the apology and be like, well,okay, I think I'm supposed to
forgive.
And that can be brought forwardtoo soon in the process.
(49:12):
And oftentimes we need todiscern between the toxic shame
and if it's coming out of aplace of grounded reality, of I
am now entering into the painthat my actions and behaviors
caused.
And it feels different.
We just feel it different.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00 (49:32):
Yes.
And a difference in that, evenin that scenario, would be, I
want to apologize to you.
And the person saying, I'm notready.
I'm not ready for that.
And they will notice thebetrayer would notice in them
all of the feelings, right?
Because that might not feelgood.
But instead of doing it anyway,they're going to get curious
about the big feelings.
And then they're going to calltheir therapist and say, I don't
(49:56):
know what's going on.
Sometimes we don't, right?
When we're wrestling withfeelings, they might be new and
they might say, This feelsreally awful.
And I feel like I need to dosomething.
There's the urge, right?
I always encourage people tolook at their tubes, their
thoughts, urges, behaviors,emotions, and sensations.
And so they might get real withtheir tubes and go, there's a
strong urge here to send itanyway.
(50:18):
But I know that violating thatboundary is unloving.
They said no.
And no means no.
It's a complete sentence.
You don't need anything elsewith that.
And so then they can take thatdiscomfort to their therapist
and wrestle through what'shappening for them and work
through resolution of what'shappening in their heart with
it.
And that is a difference in thatscenario going well or not going
(50:42):
well.
And that gives an indicatorabout where real repentance is
at.
Because sometimes betrayers wantto keep their shadow kingdom and
they don't know yet how to giveit up or they really love it.
And this is another thing.
And this might be hard forsurvivors who are listening to
understand is that there is agrief in giving up the Shadow
(51:04):
Kingdom because it has been asource of comfort, control,
power, a million differentthings.
Yeah.
And so to say, I'm going todismantle it and tear it down is
scary.
Now that doesn't mean that youhave to stay and wait for them
to do it either, right?
This is that tension, right?
The tension of the both, and ifthey can go do their work, and
(51:26):
that doesn't mean you have tostick around and wait and see if
they do, right?
That can be between them andJesus because it's their walk.
And so that's a tricky placewhen in your heart, because who
gets into a relationship and islike, I'd like it to explode and
end in betrayal and abuse.
And that sounds like super fun.
Nobody.
So a lot of betrayed partnersare hopeful that their partner's
(51:49):
going to change.
And I think that's another placeto just dive us back into hope
of what are you hoping in?
It is okay to hope for change.
It is okay to pray for change.
It is okay to fast.
It is okay to do all of thosethings, but to be open hand with
the outcome.
SPEAKER_01 (52:06):
Right.
And to focus on what that lookslike for our own.
So that I see a lot of hope forthose who if I have watched
people who have been betrayedwalk through a hard, honest
journey and say, Jenny, I can'tbelieve I'm saying this now, but
(52:31):
I'm at a place where I mean thegrief still hits me, but I feel
calm.
I feel like I know myself betterthan I've ever.
And I think I actually do feelsome of that hope again.
And I've walked with thebetrayer who has thought there's
(52:55):
no way forward.
I that shadow side is too muchof me.
It's caused too much damage, butwho has been willing to do the
real work?
And I love how you talked abouthow there is a grief component
that can come up because I thinkwe need to understand that it's
the function of the behavior.
Like you said, no one enters amarriage thinking, I want to
(53:18):
destroy and create a lot of painor relationship or connection,
even if it's even if we're nottalking about marriage, it's not
the heart's desire, it's a wayof coping and trying to control.
And so it can a lot of timesthose strategies are very
ancient and old and were learnedas young kids, and then they
(53:42):
evolve.
And so it's a toxin, it's atumor, it has to be addressed,
and yet it can feel really scaryas there is this truly looking
at that shadow kingdom andsaying, okay, I learned for a
long time that this brought meprotection, and now I have to
walk a different route, but thatmeans I have to cut this off,
(54:05):
and that feels terrifying.
And yet I've seen just thebeauty and the hope that's come
for through that.
And yet we can't do that workfor someone else.
And so I think just encouragingthe person who is a survivor who
has experienced that pain, justlike you said, it is beautiful
(54:27):
to give prayers of hope andwanting there to be change, and
yet fixing one's eyes on Jesusin front of you and within you,
and not trying to do that workfor the other person, letting
their choices and theirbehaviors be their own, and then
(54:48):
reliable behavior over time canshow you in the future.
And yet, that also might meanthat the healthiest thing is to
not walk together in any kind ofrelationship, but still to
pursue that freedom of heartthrough forgiveness, which is
not the same as we talked aboutbefore, as reconciliation.
(55:09):
And so I think just being ablehaving there can be a lot of
pain and grief for having to letgo of I so badly wanted them to
choose a different path, but Ican't do that work for them.
I have to do the work formyself.
SPEAKER_00 (55:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that applies to bothaddictive behaviors and abusive
behaviors.
And so one of the things I sayoften is all addiction is
abusive because you are harminganother person, right?
Betrayal trauma, as we said, isawful.
It can cause PTSD.
(55:47):
And there's a difference betweensomeone who is abusive in their
behavior in their addiction andsomeone who is a coercive
controller.
Those are two different things.
And there's overlap because someof the behaviors might be the
same, particularly aroundprocess addiction, like sex
addiction.
The way they fundamentally seethe other party is as property,
(56:09):
not as a person.
And I think that's just a gooddistinction to make because I
know for so many people, andthis is one of the reasons I
actually became a CSAT, was Igot really tired of pastors
telling me, well, they're justaddicted.
And I'm like, well, that's notwhat the science says, but okay.
And so I was like, well, I'lljust go get my CSAT, then I'll
have more street cred so I canhave these conversations, which
is literally why I got it.
(56:30):
And I love it.
I'm so glad that I did.
And I look at that and I look atthe men I've worked with who are
addicted but not coercivelycontrolling, they're not what I
would call an abuser.
They have been abusive and theirheart is broken and they are
hurting over the pain that theycause their partner.
So even if we have to breakthrough denial and work out
(56:52):
their three circles and all ofthe things, there's a different
vibe, if you will.
The heart is very different.
And in someone who's a coercivecontroller who's like, well,
they owe me sex and they owe methis, and I can ask them to make
pornography.
And I can't get, why are yousaying this?
This is ridiculous.
Of course I'll die if I don'thave sex every 72 hours.
And some of the other thingsthat I have heard out loud of
(57:14):
people's lips where I'm like,wow, that's that's an
interesting take that is not inthe Bible.
And so it's a very differentheart where you have to deal
with entitlement in a differentway than you would if I'm
walking with someone who is notcoercively controlling but is
abusive in their addiction.
And that can be profoundlytricky for the betrayed partner
because they don't often knowwhere the other person is
(57:35):
because they can say prettywords and maybe they're giving
them a carrot when it's likethey're doing this thing.
I asked them to do the dishesfor 73 years and now they're
finally doing it.
Everything is fine now.
And it's it's not fine.
And so it can be really hard fora betrayed partner to know which
way is up.
SPEAKER_01 (57:52):
Right.
Absolutely.
And I think that's why it's soimportant to slow things down
and take a step back and reallyjust like we talked about before
when you said getting out intonature and really attuning back
to one's own self, God withinthat sight of his protection,
(58:17):
because space will often helpwith clarifying what you're
looking at.
And you can usually feel thedifference.
I mean, you can feel whenthere's a genuine repentance
versus this controllingmanipulative, though it's
usually really hard to tell thedifference at first, especially
(58:39):
when, like you said, there'sbeen so much pain around maybe
feelings of neglect or what'sbeen absent.
So when it seems like it'sshowing up, it feels so good.
Of course it does.
Of course it does.
And there's that desire to hopein an outcome.
They're changing, this ishappening.
I don't know, maybe, butunhooking our hope from a
(59:00):
particular outcome, yes, andagain anchor it like hooking it
into what are fundamentaltruths, what are fundamental
truths?
And for me, my fundamentaltruths that makes the chaotic
world feel a little less scaryand dark is I just believe that
(59:24):
creator God is good and thathe's infinite, which means
mathematically, goodness isinfinite and is the greater
reality when he says, I'm makingall things new.
And you're talking aboutparadox.
(59:44):
Jesus, he embraces the ultimate,he is the ultimate both and both
God and man.
Both God and man.
That just baffles my brain, andso he wept and he lamented, and
he had to leave people and spendtime alone.
(01:00:05):
He had to go, he was in lonely,desolate places, he was on
mountaintops praying, he alsoenjoyed good food and left her
with those that the religiousleaders thought he should not
have been.
He violated so many of thereligious norms and shoulds.
(01:00:26):
And so I think I just want tobring back like that center of I
think as we're talking aboutwhat's up and what's down, and
it gets so confusing.
It's this anchoring back intowhat is the fundamental truth,
and how do I hold the both andboth grief and gift?
(01:00:49):
And that means spending sometime in the lament.
I mean, like, this is not whereI thought my life would be.
I like parts language, I thinkit's really helpful.
A part of me feels reallyembarrassed.
Like, how did I end up here?
A part of me feels like it's myfault, and I'm just so deeply
(01:01:11):
disappointed.
And hanging out in that space.
And this is not the end of thestory, the story's not written.
And what is also true I have mybreath today, I have life today.
(01:01:32):
Sometimes it's just enough tosay, I got out of bed today and
I brushed my teeth.
And I'm doing the next rightthing.
And so when we can hold theboth, and sometimes we need to
spend a little bit more time inthe grief, and sometimes we need
to get out of that and bringsome healthy containment to, and
say, Okay, I'm gonna dosomething that makes me laugh,
(01:01:54):
even though I don't feel likedoing that.
And so over time there gets tobe this recalibration and
healing, and it's just reallybeautiful because Revelation 21
5 Behold, I am making all thingsnew, and that is a monument.
For me, that re-anchors me againand again when I'm looking
(01:02:16):
around and I'm like, Are yousure?
Are you sure?
And it's a practice and it's adaily thing, and there's grace
and there's compassion, but it'salso really powerful.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02:30):
Yeah.
And that is a great place for usto land this plane.
And what I'm thinking about whenyou said that behold, I am
making all things new, my braininitially went to that is a
perfect breath prayer.
Because I'm a fan of breathprayers.
I think that they are so goodbecause our breath can be very
(01:02:51):
regulating.
It can really help us calm someof what's going on inside our
physiology and also anchor us intruth.
And I remember a story that Iheard from Bob Goff, like, I
don't know, it's been a billionyears now.
But he talks about settinganchor.
And you can just throw an anchorout there, but if it's not
hooked into anything, you'restill going to get tossed around
(01:03:11):
a bit in the waves.
It's going to move your boat.
But if you set your anchor, itstays and the waves can come and
go, and the tide will go in andout, and you will not go with
it, which is what we are goingfor here.
And so behold, I am making allthings new as a breath prayer,
is a great way to set youranchor because you're going to
sit with that, you're going tosavor it, you're going to
(01:03:32):
breathe into it, and you'regoing to let your body feel a
little something of it.
And even if it's imperfect,right?
We see imperfectly the side ofheaven, the side of Eden.
But we can reorient to it.
So if I was going to leadsomeone in a breath of prayer,
it would be breathing in throughbehold and breathing out nice
(01:03:53):
and slow, for I am making allthings new.
And so I would just encouragethe listeners, if you haven't
tried that, give that one a try.
And Jenny, thank you so much forbeing here.
This has been such a delight asI knew it would be.
I have been dying for thisconversation.
Thank you so much for hangingout with us.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04:14):
That's beautiful, Tabitha.
I am just soaking in that breathprayer right now as I'm hearing
you speak it out loud.
I can feel my nervous systemdrawing in the behold and
breathing through my whole body.
I am making all things new.
And that's just really anchoringfor me today.
So it's been such a joy and aprivilege for me.
(01:04:36):
And I look forward to acontinuation.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04:40):
Thank you so much.
And thank you guys for beinghere with us on this week's Hey
Tabby.
And we will for sure see younext time.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of Hey Tabby.
If you're looking for a resourcethat I mentioned in the show and
you want to check out the shownotes, head on over to
tabithawestbrook.com forwardslash hey tabby.
(01:05:01):
That's H E Y T A C I, and youcan grab it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
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