July 14, 2025 • 47 mins
What if the marriage advice you were taught in church is actually what's ruining your marriage?
In this powerful and data-backed conversation, author and researcher Sheila Wray Gregoire joins Tabitha to unpack the myths evangelical culture has fed us about sex, submission, and "roles" in marriage and how those messages have led to entitlement, emotional immaturity, and deep harm for both men and women.
In this eye-opening episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook sits down with author, podcaster, and researcher Sheila Wray Gregoire (BareMarriage.com) to dive deep into the truth about evangelical messages on sex and marriage.
Drawing on data from over 32,000 survey responses, Sheila exposes the damaging beliefs that have shaped evangelical culture—from the “72-hour rule” to male headship—and replaces them with Christ-centered, evidence-based truth about healthy intimacy, mutuality, and emotional regulation.
They tackle:
- Why prioritizing sex is the wrong goal
- How purity culture harmed an entire generation
- The silent epidemic of emotionally immature marriages
- Why Christian men need real discipleship, not entitlement
- What love languages actually reveal (hint: it’s not what you think)
- How to build a marriage rooted in partnership, not power
Whether you’re single, married, deconstructing, or holding on by a thread—this conversation is the invitation to rethink what God-honoring marriage truly looks like.
📘 Grab Sheila’s latest book The Marriage You Want, and be sure to grab copies of The Great Sex Rescue and She Deserves Better if you don't already have them!
Find Shelia!
- Bare Marriage: https://www.baremarriage.com
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sheilagregoire
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/baremarriageofficial
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SheilaWrayGregoire
✨ Don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe for more honest, faith-integrated conversations about trauma, healing, and hope.
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com
💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
📲 The Journey & The Process Instagram - www.instagram.com/_tjatp
Subscribe to my YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there
👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!
🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
Need to know how to find a great therapist? Read this...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
I am super excited for thisweek's episode of hey Tabby.
We have got an amazing personhere with us.
(00:42):
This is Sheila Rae Gueguar andshe's an author, podcaster and
researcher into evangelicalismand sex, which is like such a
cool title.
She's the founder ofbaremarriagecom and with her
team she has surveyed more than32,000 people for her books the
Great Sex, rescue, she DeservesBetter and her latest book, the
Marriage you Want.
(01:02):
Her goal is to change theevangelical conversation about
sex to be healthy,evidence-based and rooted in
Christ.
She's a graduate of QueensUniversity and she's married to
her husband, keith, apediatrician, who writes and
speaks with her, and I am soexcited to have you here.
First of all, I am a researchnerd, and before I was a
(01:23):
therapist I worked in clinicalresearch, and so when I saw your
numbers of 32,000, that is aheck of a response.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I think you actually may even be closer to 40 now.
I'm not even sure I'd have toadd it all up.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
But yeah, and that gives a lot of weight to the
data that you have.
So tell me about that.
Tell me what made you, becauseyou started the research piece
way back with the Great SexRescue what made you go?
I wonder what people say, Iwonder what the data says.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Well, you know, I had started off as this mommy
blogger, so I was talking abouthousework and parenting and
everything, and marriage.
And then, the more I talkedabout sex, the more my traffic
grew, and so you know who knewthat people wanted to talk about
sex so much?
But I became like this weirdChristian sex lady and so,
throughout the aughts and likethe 2010s, I was writing all
this content, Like I was justproducing so much stuff on my
(02:19):
blog every day.
I wrote a couple of big booksthe Good Girl's Guide to Great
Sex, which I've since totallyrevised, 31 Days to Great Sex.
So I'm writing all this stuff,but the one thing that I didn't
do was I didn't read anyoneelse's book because I was so
scared of plagiarizing and Ifigured they love Jesus, I love
Jesus.
We're all saying the same thing.
And then one day it was inFebruary of 2019, I had a
(02:41):
headache and I didn't want towork and I was procrastinating
and I was on what was thenTwitter and they were debating
whether people needed love orrespect, whether women preferred
love or respect, and they werereferring to Emerson Egrich's
book, Love and Respect, and Ithought I have that book.
This is an awesome way toprocrastinate.
So I finally got it off myshelf and I turned to the sex
(03:01):
chapter and it was like anuclear bomb went off in my
living room.
Because I could, I justcouldn't believe it.
You know, if your husband istypical, he has a need that you
don't have.
The need is for physicalrelease.
If he doesn't get it, he'llcome under satanic attack.
And there wasn't anything aboutintimacy or female pleasure or
anything.
And at the time which we realizein retrospect now was totally a
(03:24):
God thing I had these two youngwomen working for me, one of
whom had just had a baby.
She was an epidemiologist, astatistician, she was just home
with her baby and she was doingsome work part-time work for me.
My daughter had just startedworking for me.
She was a psychometrics nerdand a psychology grad, and so we
had this perfect team to doresearch.
And you know we were like well,why don't we just see what
(03:48):
happens when people hear thesemessages?
And that's what we did firstwas 20,000 people, great sex
rescue.
And we learned what happenswhen you tell women hey, you
don't need sex.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, but that was a game changer for so many women
in the evangelical church,because we're not allowed to
talk about sex, although I don'tknow.
I don't know why, but it'ssomething that is so desperately
needed.
I mean, you can tell by thenumbers of people that responded
to your survey, the numbers ofpeople that follow you on the
(04:23):
internet, that women are like.
Please tell me more.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I know, and like it was a really long survey, all
our surveys have been like halfan hour long and we don't have a
lot of drop off, like peopleactually fill them all out.
It's wild If you were one ofthose people.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, because I know it
was a big part of a big chunk ofyour life.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
That's amazing, because one of the things that I
learned in school going forstats and then more in clinical
research and all of that wasthat survey research isn't as
robust because you can't controlwhether or not people finish it
, and so respondent rates in the10 percentage ratio is
considered great.
(05:02):
If you're at 20%.
Amazing, and you were way abovethat.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think we had about a70% completion rate, so about
30% of people who started didn'tfinish.
But you know, we still couldget data even from that 30%,
depending on how far along theygot.
So, yeah, that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
I know that you've come under fire for some of the
things, because it's hard toruffle feathers.
But, you know, when you look atthe sheer amount of data and
this is one of the things thatalso you know I do a lot of
abuse work and that sort ofthing, a lot of course of
control work, and that's wherethe wheel of power and control
is so helpful, because what theydid was went and asked people
(05:43):
what is your actual experience,and that has made that such a
powerful model and that's whatmakes your research so powerful.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah.
So for people who don'tunderstand how this works, like
they actually created a model.
That Wheel of Power and Controlwas based on a number of
surveys where they found outwhat was correlated, and so they
found, like when this happens,this also happens, like these
are very highly correlated, andso it's what's called a
validated construct, and which Iknow it sounds really
(06:15):
complicated, but it just meansthat they've done enough
research that they know.
No, these things really arelinked, and that's what we did
in our surveys, too, is we usedvalidated constructs to measure
different things, so use thingsthat were already validated.
Other people have said yes, thisreally is a good measure of
sexual satisfaction, this reallyis a good measure of marital
satisfaction.
And then we asked them okay,what about this message?
(06:37):
What about a wife is obligatedto give her husband sex when he
wants it?
What about the idea that ahusband should make the final
decision if you disagree?
So we were able to measure thethings that were taught in
church and see how they affectthese things, which have been
validated as good measures ofmarital and sexual satisfaction.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
And that's such helpful information for people
because it means that when we'rereading what you found, that we
can go.
That's pretty reliable, right,because validation and
reliability go together veryclosely.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yes, and that's really important.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
And I think it's like super cool and important that
you got that conversation goingfor people and then have
continued it through sheDeserves Better and into the
Marriage you Want, because it'sgreat.
Okay, we've got all thisinformation from the Great Sex
Rescue.
Now what?
How do we combat purity cultureand sexual messages?
And then how do we have goodmarriages?
(07:28):
And you've followed thattrajectory.
So take us through that alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah.
So we started with sex.
We started looking at okay,what about sex and marriage?
But then we got bigger becausepeople were saying, okay, so if
I know what's healthy inmarriage, I still have
absolutely no idea what to tellmy kids, because I grew up with
all these purity culturemessages.
I don't want to give my kidsthat, but I also don't want to
tell my kids go do whatever youwant, so what's healthy and
(07:53):
that's what she deserves?
Better is here's how you cantalk to your kids, your girls
especially, in a way that'shealthy and with the marriage
you want.
We just took another look.
We took an even greater bird'seye view.
So we it's like okay, so weknow what's healthy with sex,
but let's get even broader andlet's say what actually leads to
healthy marriages.
Because all of us, like God,put into all of us this desire
(08:16):
for intimacy, the desire to befully known, fully seen and
still fully accepted and loved.
But how do you achieve that,Right, and what are the real
markers of achieving that?
And so that's what we werelooking at is what goes into
that, and it's funny becausethat's something that most
Christian marriage books don'tdo.
In fact, I don't know any otherone that does it in the
(08:39):
Christian market.
Because I take Jesus at his word.
Right, Jesus said that a goodtree can't bear bad fruit and a
bad tree can't bear good fruit.
So you can recognize things bytheir fruit.
So if we know that a certainteaching bears bad fruit, that
teaching's not from God.
It doesn't matter how much yourpastor says it, it doesn't
(09:00):
matter how many Christianmarriage books teach it.
If it bears bad fruit, it's notfrom God.
Jesus himself said that.
So if it leads to worsemarriages, if it leads to worse
sex lives, if it leads to higherdivorce rates and more abuse,
that teaching is bad, you know.
But on the other hand,teachings and actions that lead
to good marriages, dynamics thatlead to real intimacy, to being
(09:22):
totally seen, those things aregood fruit.
And so let's figure out whatthose things are.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Absolutely, and I think to your point.
About all marriage books seemto talk about sex for the most
part.
One of my thoughts lately, justbeing a certified sex addiction
therapist, is that theevangelical church is a sex
addict because all they talkabout is intercourse and it's
like that is a part of amarriage.
It is not the marriage, and Ithink you really tackle that,
(09:51):
the what is a whole marriage inthe marriage you want.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
At least, I feel like you and Keith did that very
well yeah, well, thank you, Iknow because, like, we started
chapter four, which is our sexchapter, and, by the way, when
you have written like four bookson sex, writing one chapter on
sex is horrible, I bet.
How do I just still all thisdown to one chapter?
So, if anyone wants to knowwhat I believe about sex, like,
(10:16):
start with the marriage you want, because it's kind of like the
synopsis, right.
But we started that chapter bysaying that you shouldn't
prioritize sex in your marriage.
That's what we're always taught, right?
You need to prioritize sex.
And what do they mean by that,tabitha, when you say you?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
need to prioritize sex.
What do they mean?
They mean give it to yourhusband whenever he asks for it,
at least every 72 hours,because, god knows, we wouldn't
want to look at exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
It's like all they're saying is you have to have sex
more often, right, and likethat's not the point.
That's totally not the point.
Instead, what we argue is youneed to prioritize the
ingredients of great sex,because frequency and desire,
they're symptoms.
Egg your spouse to have sex,like that's a sign that there is
(11:06):
something else going on.
And so, rather than just tellpeople, hey, lie back and think
of England or whatever they usedto say let's figure out why
this isn't good, Because if sexis so awesome and we know that
it's supposed to be awesome ifsex is so awesome, why would
people not want it?
Yep, and I think a lot ofChristian marriage books treat
women like they're crazy youknow, they treat women like blow
(11:26):
up dolls yeah, like why can'tyou get with the program you?
know so it's just, it's justnuts and it's like, well, maybe
there's a reason and so let'sfigure what that reason is,
instead of just getting mad atwomen and telling them they have
to put out, no matter what.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yeah, and it's a huge disservice to men.
I've worked with a lot of menwho sit across from me in my
office and they have struggleswith sex addiction for a lot of
reasons, and it's not becausethey don't get sex, it's you
know there's a lot of traumathat sits on top of it.
There's a lot of other things,but you know, I had one guy look
at me once and tell me I don'twant to do it every 72 hours,
(12:02):
but I feel like I have to or myaddiction's going to get worse.
And I was like what?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
And.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I just remember feeling so much compassion
because that had been what he'dbeen taught for so long that he
thought this is how I have to beto be a Christian man.
And so it's hurting ourbrothers as much as it's hurting
our sisters, and I think thatthe church doesn't?
the big C church, not allchurches, but the big C church
doesn't realize that, that youare harming men as much as women
(12:30):
by saying these things to themand making them believe that
they are nothing more than theirlust.
My good brothers are so muchmore Like.
They are men of integrity andthey're wonderful and they're
fun and I can hang out with thembecause they don't see me as a
sex object and it's a beautifulthing and we learn from each
other.
They accept influence from me,I accept influence from them,
(12:52):
and that is much more a pictureof the body of Christ that we're
supposed to have versus what Ithink has been languished.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yep, absolutely, and I just don't know why more men
don't stand up and walk in somesermons when they teach that,
yeah, men can't help it but bevisual and lust.
That's so insulting to men.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
It is I don't think they think about it, though I
was thinking about that recentlythat you don't always know the
water that you're swimming inuntil you stop and take a look
around.
And if you were growing up incertain churches where that was
taught and you have a heart forGod and you want to follow the
Lord and you believe that's whatit looks like, then you're
going to drink that in and makesense.
But it's such such a horriblething for people, absolutely,
(13:42):
absolutely, and I think itbreeds, another topic that you
have in your book, which isentitlement.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
So tell me about that .
Yes, yes, you know.
One of the best ways toencapsulate this is let me take
a step back.
Often, the way that Christianbooks frame big issues in
marriage is that we just need tocompromise.
Okay, everyone has needs, youjust need to meet your spouse's
needs and then they will meetyours.
And that's actually, if youthink about it, that's the whole
(14:10):
idea behind books like the fivelove languages, or love and
respect, or for women only, formen only.
You just need to figure outwhat each other's needs and they
need to meet those needs.
But the problem is, this wholetransactional view of I'm going
to meet your needs so that youcan meet my needs is based on
the idea that we're starting inthe same place and we may not be
(14:32):
.
So let me tell you a story thatwe open in chapter two with.
So let's picture a couple andthis is kind of a, a
conglomerate of, like all thepeople that write into my blog,
this is one of the most commonscenarios.
So Gabriella and Brad married 10years.
They have three kids.
Gabriella is a nurse.
She does a lot of shift work,she's frequently exhausted, but
she's also got the primary careof the kids, so she's always
(14:55):
juggling schedules and homeworkand making lunch, et cetera.
Brad doesn't do a whole lotwith the children, and so their
sex life had really dwindled tovery little.
And then, six months ago, braddisclosed that he's been using
porn their whole marriage and hewants to stop.
And so what was a sex life onlife support has now become
almost nothing, and so Brad'snot happy with this, because he
(15:16):
needs Gabriela to give him sexso that he can fight the porn.
So he takes Gabriela into thepastor so they can talk about
this.
And Gabriella cries and theytell the pastor the whole story,
and the pastor looks atGabriella and says you need to
understand how much your husbandneeds sex, and so you need to
give it to him and not deprivehim.
And then he looks to Brad andsays and Brad, you need to
(15:38):
understand that your wife needshelp with the children, and so
you need to start doing bathtime, and so they're each going
to meet each other's needs.
Okay, but what if Gabriella isalready doing so very, very much
and all we're doing is addingmore to her plate without Brad
(16:00):
really taking any of that on?
And we talked about this insomething that we called the
marriage hierarchy of needs, andit's lightly based on Maslow's
hierarchy of needs, and his ideais that humans have needs and
if you think of needs as beingin a pyramid, you have your
basic needs, like food, waterand shelter, that you need to
meet before you meet some of theother needs, like friendship or
(16:23):
fun or self-actualization andfeeling like you're living at
your purpose.
So no one's worried about sexwhen they're getting chased by a
bear right.
Like you know, you got toprioritize and what often
happens in a marriage is thatone spouse and it often is women
is stuck in that very bottomtier where they're barely
surviving.
So they're making sure the kidsare getting out the door in the
(16:45):
morning on the school bus,they're getting lunches made,
they're doing laundry, they'rebarely sleeping they're just
barely surviving, while theirspouse is actually able to rest
and have hobbies and they're upat a higher tier.
And then you tell them thatthey need to compromise and it's
like OK, wait a minute.
What actually needs to happenis that Brad needs to get down
(17:08):
in the trenches with Gabriella,and only once Gabriella isn't in
survival mode do you get totalk about the things that Brad
needs really how entitlementworks is.
Entitlement happens whensomeone is operating at a much
higher tier and in so doing,they are pushing their spouse
(17:29):
down to survival mode, but theyfeel like they are the one who
is being deprived.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
When reality is they can't really do anything else.
Exactly and we see this oftenin ministry couples, you know so
like one person is out everynight with meetings at the
church and they're living outtheir vision and their calling
from God, but at the same time,their spouse is drowning.
And if their spouse tries totalk to them about this, it's
(17:56):
like, well, you just don't haveenough faith, right, Don't you
support God's calling on ourlives?
But if someone's drowning,they're drowning and you need to
understand that you're beingentitled because you're
expecting from your spouse whenyou haven't really built into
your spouse.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Right, yeah, and in the ministry capacity and I will
just say this about that Godnever asks you to sacrifice your
family on the altar of ministry.
That is not in the Bibleanywhere.
And when people do that and goall in, my question is why?
What is it that you are gettingin your identity from this?
That is outside of God, becausereally, where they are is
(18:35):
idolatry, and that is somethingthat has to be attacked, right,
and I think in some evangelicalcircles it is that the man gets
to do what he wants and the wifejust gets to come along and do
what she's supposed to, and thatis so not at all what the Bible
teaches.
God does not ever put a woman ina one down position.
(18:56):
In fact, he usually puts themin an equal position.
The first person to be toldthat he is the Messiah is the
woman at the well and theSamaritan woman at the well.
And then the first person tosee that that he is the Messiah
is the woman at the well, andyou know, the Samaritan woman at
the well.
And then the first person tosee that he rose from the dead
is Mary Magdalene A woman, youknow and she was very much,
definitely a woman.
You know, even though there's afew times in Scripture people
try to say that somebody wasn'ta woman, who was in fact
(19:18):
actually a woman, junia comes tomind.
Yes, but you know, when we lookat that it's like this is not
what God says.
And if you believe the Bibleand you say you do, then it
should look a lot different thanwhat we're seeing in how
marriage is languaged.
And I think about compromise,the way that you're using it,
(19:39):
and I want to define it a littlebit for the audience here,
because there's a couple ofdifferent ways to think about
compromise.
Compromise here is I'm givingup myself, the way that you're
talking about it when we talkabout entitlement, and that's
where we look into that coercionand control space you owe me,
you are owned by me is what thatkind of compromise is Healthy
(20:01):
compromises.
We have an impasse and we haveto work through it.
And for me, as a person who'svery highly trained in couples
therapy and Gottman method andemotionally focused couples
therapy and all of that, I thinkof the compromise ovals and the
thing that kept coming to mymind while I was thinking about
that is where everybody hearsthe different needs and you
really look at what's underthose needs and what they're
(20:21):
saying, what the emotions are,what their stories are about it.
You know, and some of that isn'teven from the marriage, it's
from their own childhood andtheir life before they were
married.
And then you go what do we needto do to get through the
impasse?
And that's healthy compromise.
I remember saying this tocouples all the time when I
would do this exercise with themeverybody loses something in a
healthy compromise.
(20:42):
You decide what are yournon-negotiables, what can I not
move, and then you want thatcircle to be as small as
possible, and then everythingelse is subject to change.
And both parties do that, notjust one, not just the wife, and
that is the right kind ofcompromise.
So I just want to make sure,because the English language can
be super tricky on occasion.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
And I want to make sure we're talking about this in
ways that people understand.
Compromise in the way thatyou're using it is subjection,
yeah, it is.
And when you read things likethe five love languages, where
and you'll hear, well, he has aneed for physical touch, right,
and she has acts of service, andso he needs to do the dishes
(21:24):
and then she needs to give sex,it's like hold on a second.
What is the bigger picture,what is actually happening in
the marriage?
And that's what's often notasked, right.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And you know there are differences.
There are things that peopleprefer.
Acts of service might be apreference.
Physical touch, though, isn't aneed only for a man.
Acts of service might be apreference.
Physical touch, though, isn't aneed only for a man.
There is a ton of research outthere that we all have
essentially what amounts to skinhunger is what one of my
friends calls it.
We all need to be touched, andthere's actually protective
(21:54):
factors from hugs.
So I always tell folks,especially survivors of abuse,
I'm going to hug you awkwardlyfor at least 20 seconds because
I want to get the oxytocinflowing for you because they may
be lacking physical touch, andthat is, it increases our immune
system and all of these things.
So everybody needs it, right.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
But interestingly, when we in our survey and we had
couples answer this so we couldsee both how the husband
answered and the wife and howthey impacted each other, but I
think it was almost 50 percentof men chose physical touch as
their love language and when youdrill down on it, the men who
chose physical touch were morelikely to also have issues with
(22:32):
emotional regulation, to have adifficult time sharing deep
things with their wife.
So it's like they are channelinga lot of their needs for
intimacy into sex, because quiteoften people see physical touch
as sex, even though it's farmore, as you were just saying,
and that doesn't mean thateverybody who says they have
physical touches or lovelanguage does that, but they're
(22:53):
just more likely to.
And that's what we see over andover again is, for a lot of the
love languages, the thing thatyou say is your primary need is
actually a deficit.
So women who choose acts ofservice as their main love
language are far more likely tobe doing an oversized proportion
of the housework.
So it's like, is acts ofservice truly her love language
(23:13):
or is she just drowning Right?
Like we need to look a littlebit closer at some of these
things rather than just take asuperficial framework that so
many Christian marriage booksare based on.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, I want to circle back to the emotional
regulation piece for men,because I think that they've
been societally habituated andnot all men, but a lot of men to
not be able to talk about theiremotions, to say this is what a
real man is, is he strong andhe doesn't cry, and all that
other stupid stuff.
But then you have these poor menthat are like I have all these
(23:46):
feelings, I don't know what todo with it, I'm not allowed to
have, and so I'm going to eitherbe grumpy, because a lot of
depression comes out as anger,or I'm going to say well, have
sex with me, because in thosemoments I do feel vulnerable and
close.
And I think about gosh, what ifit was something where we, as
the body of Christ, reallychanged the narrative and said
what if we said amen, jesus weptshortest verse in the Bible,
(24:09):
which is also wailing.
It's like a wailing weeping.
And why don't we teach us allto be whole people?
And you may have a preferencefor one type of love language
air quoting that you knowpreference for one type of love
language air quoting that youknow, then another, but also
like then you are learning thata physical co-regulation that
comes from physical touch.
You know, I think about likewhen, as a parent and you've
(24:32):
probably done this with your kidyou know when they were just
really having a moment, you gavethem a big, tight hug.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
You know and your calm body calmed theirs or you
take them by the hand, look themstraight in the face and just
deep breathing and they you know, they mirror you and it's just
very lovely.
But I've often said and my dreamfor the church would be that
instead of pushing young peopleinto marriage as their main goal
(24:59):
because I think that's what wedo is we tell kids that marriage
is your main goal.
I wish we could teach emotionalwholeness and health as the
main goal, Because then if somepeople don't get married, it's
not like you've failed or likeyou're not as good a Christian
right, Because marriage is notthe goal of the Christian life.
If anything, marriage isdownplayed in the New Testament.
(25:21):
But then if people do getmarried, they're much better
prepared for it because they'reemotionally healthy and whole,
and I wish we could do more ofthat in the church and that's a
big part of what we do, our lastsection in the Marriage you
Want.
So there's two chapters on justhow to create that kind of
emotional connection andemotional awareness and
(25:41):
emotional language, especiallyif you grew up not being able to
, if you weren't ever taught howto speak out loud what your
emotions are, if you don't evenknow how to identify them
yourself and a lot of menespecially don't, but some women
don't either how do you get tothe point where you can?
Because how in the world areyou going to feel loved, how in
the world are you going to feelknown and accepted if you can't
(26:05):
share your feelings, if youcan't share who you really are
with your spouse?
Yeah Right, you're never goingto be able to experience real
intimacy until you can getvulnerable and share who you are
.
But a lot of us aren'tcomfortable with that.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
It feels scary, right , because you know that we all
carry around some level of shameand, like none of us gets out
of here alive, right, we allhave wounds that we carry.
Some of them are bigger thanothers, but we want to have our
partners see us and love us,like you said at the very
beginning of this conversation,and that is such an important
thing.
And when we say that marriagemirrors Jesus and the church,
(26:43):
that is what it means.
You know, that knowing andloving and unconditional love
and all of that.
And that doesn't mean we don'tbring up problems, it doesn't
mean that we don't have to workthrough things and it doesn't
mean it's always nice, neat,tidy.
There's messy parts.
But if we see each other asimage bearers and have that, I'm
with you in this and I want toknow you and I want to work with
(27:03):
you, I want to be with you, itchanges the game for people all
over?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, exactly, I think that's something that's
missing from a lot of Christianmarriage books, because what
normally the books do is theysay, hey, the main thing that
you need to understand aboutmarriage is that there's
different roles for men andwomen, and so if you can just
latch onto these roles and livethem out, your marriage is going
to be awesome.
And that doesn't work.
We've actually measured it.
(27:32):
And when you live like that,with the husband being an
authority over the wife becausethat's usually what they mean
your marriage is worse.
So people who go through lifewith believing that the husband
should make the final decisionand that the husband needs
respect in a way that the wifedoesn't, their marriages end up
worse.
(27:52):
They're more likely to divorce.
They feel less emotionallyconnected.
It's all just a big bag of badfruit.
But when you go through life asa partnership, where you make
decisions together and you prayabout things together and you're
really a team, marriages reallythrive.
And I think that's why so muchof our work at Bare Marriage has
(28:14):
been looking at these Christianmarriage books that have been
out there and what messagesthey've had.
And people often say to me doyou just hate all books?
Because every book you read youfind problems with and it's
like no, it's not that I'mdeliberately trying to hate all
books, but up till nowevangelical marriage books have
been based on a false premise.
And if you have a faultypremise then everything that
(28:38):
flows from there is going to beunhealthy.
And that's our faulty premisethat men are supposed to be an
authority over their wives.
It doesn't work.
It doesn't, it isn't from Jesus.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
And I know there are people that are going to look at
some scriptures and go well,christ is the head of the
husband, the husband's the headof the wife, whatever.
I think we need to look at whatelse is in scripture.
You know, good hermeneutics isyou look at the whole word of
God.
Right, you interpret scriptureby scripture, if you're doing it
correctly, and so you can takethat if you want to proof text
(29:10):
that.
But that's not actually goingto get you anywhere.
So you better drop intoEphesians and go submit one to
another as you submit to God.
Right, it starts with oursubmission to the Lord, and
submission is not subjugation.
Those are not even the sameword in the Greek or the English
, frankly.
And so when you look at thatand you go, ok, what does this
really mean?
Right, what does head mean here?
(29:32):
What does submission mean?
What are we supposed to do?
How do we live?
And when you look at it in itsentirety, it is much more
partnership.
It in its entirety, it is muchmore partnership.
And Jesus says, when he'swashing the disciples' feet I'm
doing this as an example, right,you are not going to be like
the Gentiles that lord over eachother.
(29:52):
I don't know how much moreclear you can be on that.
And this is the leader.
He spoke the world intoexistence.
He could have yeeted them offthe planet.
He could just make physics notwork.
He's jesus and he's saying thisis how I want you to live.
And that is such a beautifulpicture of power with and power
under, and that is a differentmatter and it works.
(30:15):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
It's almost like jesus created it I know, like
it's almost like yeah, actinglike Christ makes us healthier,
yeah, but when we go afterauthority and power, it makes us
less healthy.
And interestingly, I found thiskind of curious because in the
book we have a lot of charts.
So what we'll show is you know,if you believe this, here's how
(30:37):
it impacts all these differentareas of your life.
So if you believe that thehusband should make the final
decision and you act that out,how does it affect whether or
not you have shared hobbies?
How does it affect her libido?
How does it affect whether youfeel like you can laugh with
your spouse, like we have allthese different charts?
And that idea that the husbandmakes the final decision is
highly correlated with all ofthe markers for emotional
(31:01):
immaturity.
Correlated with all of themarkers for emotional immaturity
.
So people who don't have aseasy time emotionally regulating
, people who are more prone tooutbursts, anger outbursts, who
are more passive, aggressive,those people are more likely to
choose that kind of decisionmaking.
And you wonder is it a chickenor an egg?
Is it?
People who are more emotionallyimmature are drawn to that
(31:22):
wonder.
Is it a chicken or an egg?
Is it people who are moreemotionally immature are drawn
to that, or is it that the morethat you practice that, the less
you mature?
and I think it's a bit of both Ithink so because when the
husband gets to make the finaldecision, then you don't ever
learn problem solving.
You don't ever learn how totruly wrestle through an issue,
how to pray together aboutsomething, how to wait, how to
be patient, how to researchwrestle through an issue, how to
pray together about something,how to wait, how to be patient,
(31:44):
how to research Like you don'tlearn, he just gets to do what
he wants and she has to go alongwith it, and she doesn't learn
how to bring up issues, becauseshe's been told to do so is
sinful.
And so we see in thesemarriages a lot of just genuine
emotional immaturity, and that'ssomething that I think the
evangelical church needs toreckon with is that much of
(32:07):
their advice does end up inthese negative spaces.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
It does and, honestly , I've seen it go to the point
where it gets people killed,right Because when?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Well, that's the other side.
Is that it gets abusive?
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, yeah, and I think it's hard, I think, at
times for people to use the Aword right Abuse Because I've
never met a woman that satacross from me and wanted to use
that word for her situationwhen it was very much applicable
.
And it is breeding.
That, though corrupt, and thatsense of entitlement that you
(32:49):
talk about in the book and thatthe Bible talks about is the
heart of Satan.
I will stand through it and belike the most high.
That was what his goal was, andthat is the heart of a
coercively controlling abuserLike that is what Jesus do, you
know.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
In Philippians 2, it said that he gave up his power,
right, right.
He didn't consider equalitywith God something to be grasped
or held on to.
He laid it aside.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
And that's not what our Christian men have been
taught.
Our Christian men have beentaught you are the leader.
You need to stand up and lead.
It's like, no, you don't.
You need to take initiative.
We all need to take initiative,and this is what's actually
quite interesting is when womensay they want a spiritual leader
and most women do say they wanta spiritual leader.
Multiple of our studies haveshown that.
(33:32):
But when you actually dive downand you ask, what do you mean by
that?
She doesn't mean someone whomakes the decisions.
She doesn't mean someone whotells me what to do or someone
that I have to respect who won'trespect me back.
What she means is someone whowill start prayer with the
family.
She means someone who willnotice when Johnny and Jenny are
(33:54):
fighting and will figure outhow to help Johnny and Jenny
stop fighting, Right?
Well, she's not talking aboutsomeone who's an authority over
her.
She's saying I want my husbandto take initiative and notice
what's going on in the familyand involve himself in that and
get down in the trenches with me.
It's all things she's alreadydoing.
(34:17):
She's noticing when Johnny andJenny are fighting and she's
trying to get in the middle ofit.
You know she's praying with thekids, and so she's not asking
him to do something she's notdoing.
She's just saying I want him todo it with me.
I asking him to do somethingshe's not doing, she's just
saying I want him to do it withme.
I want him to be as emotionallyinvested in this as I am.
And we call that spiritualleadership.
When he does it, we call itnothing.
(34:39):
When she does it right, we justignore it.
It's like assume that's whatshe's supposed to do, but we
give it a special name when hedoes it Right.
And it's like I wish, insteadof talking about spiritual
leadership, we could just simplysay hey, people, you know what
really works in a marriage istaking initiative.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, it's this concept called mutuality.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Exactly, yeah, and it's modeled by Jesus and we
both need to be doing it.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, yeah, and it's modeled by Jesus and we both
need to be doing it, yeah, yeah.
And then when you look at theearly church in the book of Acts
, right when the Hellenists cameand they're like we have a
problem, you know, the discipleswent and looked and went all
right, how are we going to solveit?
And what they didn't tell theHellenists was you don't get
served, what?
they said was let's delegatethis appropriately and like kind
(35:27):
of figure it out.
And in marriage that's kind ofwhat we do, right?
You know, if you've married aprofessional chef and he is a
male, then perhaps he's going todo the cooking.
Now he might not want to.
You guys can work through allof that stuff.
But you know you were talkingabout those traditional gender
roles and all of that.
There's nothing wrong with astay-at-home dad.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
There's nothing wrong with a stay-at-home dad.
He works and she's astay-at-home parent.
It doesn't hurt you, it reallydoesn't, unless you think that
you're supposed to do it thatway.
And as soon as you think you'resupposed to do it that way,
then you start to see thenegative repercussions.
You start to see lower maritalsatisfaction, et cetera, because
you're not acting out ofauthenticity, you're acting out
of obligation and duty, andoften you're not acting out of
(36:26):
out of authenticity, you'reacting out of obligation and
duty, and often you're becomingsomeone you're not yeah and you
know it's okay to be the personthat God called you to be.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
It's okay to be the, the couple that God called you
to be together in a way thatthat works best for both of you
absolutely eight years ago, whenI was pregnant this is now many
years ago I was in a church andI, god, had told because I
thought I was supposed to be astay-at-home mom I thought that
was the rule.
I thought this is how you do it, right?
And God was like oh sweet thing, that is not what you're going
to do.
(36:56):
And he was so clear you aregoing to work.
And I was like am I going?
One telling you?
And I was like okay, I remembergoing to women's Bible study
and I had wrestled through itand I was like this is what I'm
going to do.
And I was pulled aside by thewife of an elder and she was
older and she said I'm soworried for your soul.
And I was like well, I was too,until God told me I shouldn't
(37:19):
be.
And she was like but Tabitha,my goodness, like the Bible says
.
And I remember looking at her.
It's probably one of the firsttimes I kind of put on some
sassy pants and I said can youshow me where?
Well, I mean it's in there.
And I said but can you show mewhere?
Can you show me the scripturethat says I have to do that?
And she goes well, proverbs 31.
(37:40):
I had grown up inevangelicalism.
That said, proverbs 31 was likedemure and mindful and quiet and
like had no voice and whateveryeah, and I went and read it and
I was like, I was like, um, I'msorry, she's a baller and a
shot caller, like she was atough cookie and she's out there
buying and selling fields anddoing all these things and I'm
like, I am like her, I am, I'mgood and and that poor lady she,
(38:04):
and no shade to her.
I think it is how she'd beenraised and what she truly
believed, and I think she reallywas worried for me and I want
to give grace for that, and Ithink sometimes in this day and
age it can be hard to give gracefor people who are really
entrenched in places, and so Igive her a lot of grace because
that's just where she was.
But I'm so grateful that Godwas like no, no, that's not what
(38:25):
I have for you, and in mysituation he knew what was
coming for me.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
And I think that's God's voice to this generation,
right, like?
I think God's voice to thisgeneration is that he has a new
thing.
He wants to set people free,and in the evangelical church we
have so put people in cages andwe've taught them things that
hurt them, and it's been acrossthe board.
(38:50):
I think of Jimmy Evans' bookMarriage on the Rock, which says
that men have a need fordomestic support, like men have
a need for wives to do thehousework His needs, her needs
says the same thing that menhave a God-given need for wives
to look after the house.
And it's like how does thateven work?
That's, it's nowhere inscripture, nowhere.
(39:12):
And yet these books areteaching us that men have this
need and most people say thatsex and money are the two
biggest problems in marriage.
Okay, but we actually measuredthis.
So we measured maritalsatisfaction on a scale of one
to a hundred.
And when you have moneyproblems, your marital
satisfaction goes down scale ofone to a hundred.
And when you have moneyproblems, your marital
satisfaction goes down by fivepoints, and most people are in
(39:33):
like the 65 to 90 range.
So five points is actuallyquite substantial when you go
from having sex more than once aweek to having sex once a month
, your marital satisfactionfalls 10 points.
So that's, you know, fairlysubstantial.
But when you go from doing halfthe housework to doing 90% of
the housework, your maritalsatisfaction falls 30 points,
(39:55):
even if you're a stay-at-homemom, like.
The thing that is really hurtingmarriages is not sex and it's
not money, it is mental load andthe distribution of housework,
because so much is being put onwomen.
You know, like to remembereveryone's doctor's appointment,
to remember that if Johnny isgoing to go to karate this week,
(40:17):
you have to.
He's been bullied by Sam and soyou need to go and watch and
make sure that Sam's mom isaware of this, that Sam can't
come to.
You know you're carrying allthis stuff in your head all the
time and it's exhausting and weneed partners and when women
(40:41):
don't have a partner it reallyreally affects marital
satisfaction.
So we need to stop making itseem like a fairy tale that
she's going to be the familymanager and take on all of these
roles and it's all going to beokay, because that's what God
meant for she can't.
It's too exhausting, she'sgoing to burn out, and we found
(41:05):
that, like in the first fiveyears.
If does that, it doesn't botherher that much.
But by year 10 it's starting toreally bug her.
By year 15, she's really mad.
And by year 20 she's done yepand then the kids are out of the
house and she divorces yeah,yeah, and so it's like you can't
live like that no and we foundthat for so many things, like
(41:25):
for your sex life, we found thatsame curve, like that same
unfairness threshold where itdoesn't bother you at first but
by 20 years you're done and likeif she's having sex it's
unsatisfying.
She can put up with that in thefirst few years, you know she
doesn't know what else to expect, but she can't keep doing that
for 20 years Over and over again.
In all of these measures whatwe found is that it's often
(41:47):
women who are getting reallytaken advantage of.
It is men in the evangelicalchurch who are acting entitled,
and that doesn't mean that nowoman is entitled.
It doesn't mean that no womanis the problem in her marriage.
But when you look at it in bigpicture terms, the systems that
we've set up in the evangelicalchurch really do set up men to
be prioritized and it is hurtingmarriages.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know just kind of
as we land the plane heretogether, the way out is to
really look at real discipleshipfrom excellent theological
standpoints, right.
So when we are saying, actuallysome of the things we've taught
weren't helpful, you know,maybe they were the best we knew
at the time, I can give thatgrace.
We know what we know when weknow it.
But we're not going to keep thesame system anymore.
(42:33):
We're going to language itdifferently, we're going to
teach it differently, we'regoing to invite men into a
different place and women into adifferent place.
We're going to honor all of thevoices of the image bearers.
I think it was Jen Wilkin thatsaid maybe sometime this year.
Earlier this year on theKnowing Faith podcast, she said
that when she looks at scriptureand you look at the leadership
(42:53):
of, like the church in Rome oryou know who Paul thanks, it's
like one third women and if youlook at any church's website you
do not see that and Jen's apretty solid complementarian.
So you know, when you look atthat and you go we aren't doing
this.
Well, we're not having a voiceof all of the image bearers.
(43:13):
If I have something of theimage of God in me and you have
something of the image of God inyou and men have something of
the image of God in them, thenwe are all needed at the table.
And I think that it could startthere and really looking at the
water that people have swum inand go, do we want to stay here
or do we want to change thechemicals?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, exactly, and let's stop focusing on roles and
hierarchies and systems andlet's start focusing on
wholeness and health and showingup with everything you are,
including your giftings, butalso your emotions, yes, you
know, because that's what makes,that's what makes relationship,
that's what makes intimacy.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
There isn't a system that is going to give you
intimacy.
There's only health and beingvulnerable and being authentic.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Right and people.
Other people and men needintimacy as much as women, and I
think, that has been somislanguaged and you know, I
think anytime that you do workin abuse like me, or you write
about sex and talk about how itis for women like you, people
call us man haters and I've hadthe privilege of talking to you
(44:21):
before.
We are not man haters.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
And we believe men can be whole and wonderful and,
yeah, that they can feel a wholerange of emotions and that they
can express their giftings andthey don't need women to be
their sin management tools, likewe believe great things of men,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
And we want to see flourishing for both, and I
think, as we close this out,that would be my parting thought
.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
What parting thoughts would you like to give our
audience?
I just want people to know thata marriage that is fulfilling
and that is lovely is what Godwants for you, and I think we
hear so much that marriage ishard and you just need to tough
it out.
And I just want to tell peopleI'm not about telling you to
(45:10):
stay in a marriage you hate.
I'm about saying, hey, how canwe actually create something
that we love, where we canflourish, because God wants you
to flourish?
So let's figure out how to getthere, instead of just telling
people oh, just suck it up,that's just the way it's
supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Yeah, instead of just telling people oh, just suck it
up, that's just the way it'ssupposed to be.
Yeah.
And for all of the people who Iknow just said in their hearts,
of hearts well, God said thathe wants us to be holy, not
happy, flourishing when thewhole different matter.
It's right, it's not inscripture, and flourishing is a
whole different matter rightFlourishing doesn't mean you're
(45:55):
always happy, but it does meanthat you're always growing and
there's another word that Iwould use, that is an s word
sanctification.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Right, and that is part of all of this, and we grow
and sanctification.
Let me say this toosanctification is not about
making you sinless.
Sanctification is about makingyou more and more like jesus,
which means making you more andmore whole.
Yes, yes, like yes, walkinginto this image that we're
supposed to be bearing Right.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Absolutely, and I think that your book helps move
us in that direction.
The book is the Marriage youWant and you wrote it with your
husband, keith, and it isamazing and I definitely commend
it.
First of all, I commend all ofyour books to everybody.
They're on my like you shouldgo read this list.
We give them out in our practiceall the time and we are so
grateful for your voice, for therisks that you've taken, and I
(46:33):
do want to honor that as we end.
Anytime a woman has a strongopinion in the evangelical world
, you get called all kinds ofthings.
I personally have been called azombie spirit, a Jezebel spirit
, woke, all sorts of stuff, anintegrationist, as if that's a
terrible thing or whatever.
But you know, I just want tothank you for taking those hits.
I want to thank you for beingbold and for speaking out and
(46:57):
for being who God created you tobe and letting us all benefit
from the gifts that he's givenyou, and thank you for hanging
out with me.
Thank you, it's been great to behere and we will have all of
your information in the shownotes, so if people want to find
you, find your books, they willbe able to do that.
And thank you again so much forbeing here.
And you know everybody.
(47:18):
Go follow Sheila, she's amazing.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom forwardslash.
Hey, tabby, that'sH-E-Y-T-A-B-I and you can grab
(47:40):
it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about
the hard things out loud withour actual lips.
We'll cover all kinds of topicsacross the mental health
spectrum, including how itintersects with the Christian
faith.
Nothing is off limits here andwe are not.
Take two verses and call me inthe morning.
I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm alicensed trauma therapist, but
I'm not your trauma therapist.
(00:21):
I'm an expert in domestic abuseand coercive control and how
complex trauma impacts ourhealth and well-being.
Our focus here is knowledge andhealing.
Trauma doesn't have to eat yourlunch forever.
There is hope.
Now let's get going.
I am super excited for thisweek's episode of hey Tabby.
We have got an amazing personhere with us.
(00:42):
This is Sheila Rae Gueguar andshe's an author, podcaster and
researcher into evangelicalismand sex, which is like such a
cool title.
She's the founder ofbaremarriagecom and with her
team she has surveyed more than32,000 people for her books the
Great Sex, rescue, she DeservesBetter and her latest book, the
Marriage you Want.
(01:02):
Her goal is to change theevangelical conversation about
sex to be healthy,evidence-based and rooted in
Christ.
She's a graduate of QueensUniversity and she's married to
her husband, keith, apediatrician, who writes and
speaks with her, and I am soexcited to have you here.
First of all, I am a researchnerd, and before I was a
(01:23):
therapist I worked in clinicalresearch, and so when I saw your
numbers of 32,000, that is aheck of a response.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I think you actually may even be closer to 40 now.
I'm not even sure I'd have toadd it all up.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
But yeah, and that gives a lot of weight to the
data that you have.
So tell me about that.
Tell me what made you, becauseyou started the research piece
way back with the Great SexRescue what made you go?
I wonder what people say, Iwonder what the data says.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Well, you know, I had started off as this mommy
blogger, so I was talking abouthousework and parenting and
everything, and marriage.
And then, the more I talkedabout sex, the more my traffic
grew, and so you know who knewthat people wanted to talk about
sex so much?
But I became like this weirdChristian sex lady and so,
throughout the aughts and likethe 2010s, I was writing all
this content, Like I was justproducing so much stuff on my
(02:19):
blog every day.
I wrote a couple of big booksthe Good Girl's Guide to Great
Sex, which I've since totallyrevised, 31 Days to Great Sex.
So I'm writing all this stuff,but the one thing that I didn't
do was I didn't read anyoneelse's book because I was so
scared of plagiarizing and Ifigured they love Jesus, I love
Jesus.
We're all saying the same thing.
And then one day it was inFebruary of 2019, I had a
(02:41):
headache and I didn't want towork and I was procrastinating
and I was on what was thenTwitter and they were debating
whether people needed love orrespect, whether women preferred
love or respect, and they werereferring to Emerson Egrich's
book, Love and Respect, and Ithought I have that book.
This is an awesome way toprocrastinate.
So I finally got it off myshelf and I turned to the sex
(03:01):
chapter and it was like anuclear bomb went off in my
living room.
Because I could, I justcouldn't believe it.
You know, if your husband istypical, he has a need that you
don't have.
The need is for physicalrelease.
If he doesn't get it, he'llcome under satanic attack.
And there wasn't anything aboutintimacy or female pleasure or
anything.
And at the time which we realizein retrospect now was totally a
(03:24):
God thing I had these two youngwomen working for me, one of
whom had just had a baby.
She was an epidemiologist, astatistician, she was just home
with her baby and she was doingsome work part-time work for me.
My daughter had just startedworking for me.
She was a psychometrics nerdand a psychology grad, and so we
had this perfect team to doresearch.
And you know we were like well,why don't we just see what
(03:48):
happens when people hear thesemessages?
And that's what we did firstwas 20,000 people, great sex
rescue.
And we learned what happenswhen you tell women hey, you
don't need sex.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, but that was a game changer for so many women
in the evangelical church,because we're not allowed to
talk about sex, although I don'tknow.
I don't know why, but it'ssomething that is so desperately
needed.
I mean, you can tell by thenumbers of people that responded
to your survey, the numbers ofpeople that follow you on the
(04:23):
internet, that women are like.
Please tell me more.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I know, and like it was a really long survey, all
our surveys have been like halfan hour long and we don't have a
lot of drop off, like peopleactually fill them all out.
It's wild If you were one ofthose people.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, because I know it
was a big part of a big chunk ofyour life.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
That's amazing, because one of the things that I
learned in school going forstats and then more in clinical
research and all of that wasthat survey research isn't as
robust because you can't controlwhether or not people finish it
, and so respondent rates in the10 percentage ratio is
considered great.
(05:02):
If you're at 20%.
Amazing, and you were way abovethat.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think we had about a70% completion rate, so about
30% of people who started didn'tfinish.
But you know, we still couldget data even from that 30%,
depending on how far along theygot.
So, yeah, that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
I know that you've come under fire for some of the
things, because it's hard toruffle feathers.
But, you know, when you look atthe sheer amount of data and
this is one of the things thatalso you know I do a lot of
abuse work and that sort ofthing, a lot of course of
control work, and that's wherethe wheel of power and control
is so helpful, because what theydid was went and asked people
(05:43):
what is your actual experience,and that has made that such a
powerful model and that's whatmakes your research so powerful.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah.
So for people who don'tunderstand how this works, like
they actually created a model.
That Wheel of Power and Controlwas based on a number of
surveys where they found outwhat was correlated, and so they
found, like when this happens,this also happens, like these
are very highly correlated, andso it's what's called a
validated construct, and which Iknow it sounds really
(06:15):
complicated, but it just meansthat they've done enough
research that they know.
No, these things really arelinked, and that's what we did
in our surveys, too, is we usedvalidated constructs to measure
different things, so use thingsthat were already validated.
Other people have said yes, thisreally is a good measure of
sexual satisfaction, this reallyis a good measure of marital
satisfaction.
And then we asked them okay,what about this message?
(06:37):
What about a wife is obligatedto give her husband sex when he
wants it?
What about the idea that ahusband should make the final
decision if you disagree?
So we were able to measure thethings that were taught in
church and see how they affectthese things, which have been
validated as good measures ofmarital and sexual satisfaction.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
And that's such helpful information for people
because it means that when we'rereading what you found, that we
can go.
That's pretty reliable, right,because validation and
reliability go together veryclosely.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yes, and that's really important.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
And I think it's like super cool and important that
you got that conversation goingfor people and then have
continued it through sheDeserves Better and into the
Marriage you Want, because it'sgreat.
Okay, we've got all thisinformation from the Great Sex
Rescue.
Now what?
How do we combat purity cultureand sexual messages?
And then how do we have goodmarriages?
(07:28):
And you've followed thattrajectory.
So take us through that alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah.
So we started with sex.
We started looking at okay,what about sex and marriage?
But then we got bigger becausepeople were saying, okay, so if
I know what's healthy inmarriage, I still have
absolutely no idea what to tellmy kids, because I grew up with
all these purity culturemessages.
I don't want to give my kidsthat, but I also don't want to
tell my kids go do whatever youwant, so what's healthy and
(07:53):
that's what she deserves?
Better is here's how you cantalk to your kids, your girls
especially, in a way that'shealthy and with the marriage
you want.
We just took another look.
We took an even greater bird'seye view.
So we it's like okay, so weknow what's healthy with sex,
but let's get even broader andlet's say what actually leads to
healthy marriages.
Because all of us, like God,put into all of us this desire
(08:16):
for intimacy, the desire to befully known, fully seen and
still fully accepted and loved.
But how do you achieve that,Right, and what are the real
markers of achieving that?
And so that's what we werelooking at is what goes into
that, and it's funny becausethat's something that most
Christian marriage books don'tdo.
In fact, I don't know any otherone that does it in the
(08:39):
Christian market.
Because I take Jesus at his word.
Right, Jesus said that a goodtree can't bear bad fruit and a
bad tree can't bear good fruit.
So you can recognize things bytheir fruit.
So if we know that a certainteaching bears bad fruit, that
teaching's not from God.
It doesn't matter how much yourpastor says it, it doesn't
(09:00):
matter how many Christianmarriage books teach it.
If it bears bad fruit, it's notfrom God.
Jesus himself said that.
So if it leads to worsemarriages, if it leads to worse
sex lives, if it leads to higherdivorce rates and more abuse,
that teaching is bad, you know.
But on the other hand,teachings and actions that lead
to good marriages, dynamics thatlead to real intimacy, to being
(09:22):
totally seen, those things aregood fruit.
And so let's figure out whatthose things are.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Absolutely, and I think to your point.
About all marriage books seemto talk about sex for the most
part.
One of my thoughts lately, justbeing a certified sex addiction
therapist, is that theevangelical church is a sex
addict because all they talkabout is intercourse and it's
like that is a part of amarriage.
It is not the marriage, and Ithink you really tackle that,
(09:51):
the what is a whole marriage inthe marriage you want.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
At least, I feel like you and Keith did that very
well yeah, well, thank you, Iknow because, like, we started
chapter four, which is our sexchapter, and, by the way, when
you have written like four bookson sex, writing one chapter on
sex is horrible, I bet.
How do I just still all thisdown to one chapter?
So, if anyone wants to knowwhat I believe about sex, like,
(10:16):
start with the marriage you want, because it's kind of like the
synopsis, right.
But we started that chapter bysaying that you shouldn't
prioritize sex in your marriage.
That's what we're always taught, right?
You need to prioritize sex.
And what do they mean by that,tabitha, when you say you?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
need to prioritize sex.
What do they mean?
They mean give it to yourhusband whenever he asks for it,
at least every 72 hours,because, god knows, we wouldn't
want to look at exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
It's like all they're saying is you have to have sex
more often, right, and likethat's not the point.
That's totally not the point.
Instead, what we argue is youneed to prioritize the
ingredients of great sex,because frequency and desire,
they're symptoms.
Egg your spouse to have sex,like that's a sign that there is
(11:06):
something else going on.
And so, rather than just tellpeople, hey, lie back and think
of England or whatever they usedto say let's figure out why
this isn't good, Because if sexis so awesome and we know that
it's supposed to be awesome ifsex is so awesome, why would
people not want it?
Yep, and I think a lot ofChristian marriage books treat
women like they're crazy youknow, they treat women like blow
(11:26):
up dolls yeah, like why can'tyou get with the program you?
know so it's just, it's justnuts and it's like, well, maybe
there's a reason and so let'sfigure what that reason is,
instead of just getting mad atwomen and telling them they have
to put out, no matter what.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yeah, and it's a huge disservice to men.
I've worked with a lot of menwho sit across from me in my
office and they have struggleswith sex addiction for a lot of
reasons, and it's not becausethey don't get sex, it's you
know there's a lot of traumathat sits on top of it.
There's a lot of other things,but you know, I had one guy look
at me once and tell me I don'twant to do it every 72 hours,
(12:02):
but I feel like I have to or myaddiction's going to get worse.
And I was like what?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
And.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I just remember feeling so much compassion
because that had been what he'dbeen taught for so long that he
thought this is how I have to beto be a Christian man.
And so it's hurting ourbrothers as much as it's hurting
our sisters, and I think thatthe church doesn't?
the big C church, not allchurches, but the big C church
doesn't realize that, that youare harming men as much as women
(12:30):
by saying these things to themand making them believe that
they are nothing more than theirlust.
My good brothers are so muchmore Like.
They are men of integrity andthey're wonderful and they're
fun and I can hang out with thembecause they don't see me as a
sex object and it's a beautifulthing and we learn from each
other.
They accept influence from me,I accept influence from them,
(12:52):
and that is much more a pictureof the body of Christ that we're
supposed to have versus what Ithink has been languished.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yep, absolutely, and I just don't know why more men
don't stand up and walk in somesermons when they teach that,
yeah, men can't help it but bevisual and lust.
That's so insulting to men.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
It is I don't think they think about it, though I
was thinking about that recentlythat you don't always know the
water that you're swimming inuntil you stop and take a look
around.
And if you were growing up incertain churches where that was
taught and you have a heart forGod and you want to follow the
Lord and you believe that's whatit looks like, then you're
going to drink that in and makesense.
But it's such such a horriblething for people, absolutely,
(13:42):
absolutely, and I think itbreeds, another topic that you
have in your book, which isentitlement.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
So tell me about that .
Yes, yes, you know.
One of the best ways toencapsulate this is let me take
a step back.
Often, the way that Christianbooks frame big issues in
marriage is that we just need tocompromise.
Okay, everyone has needs, youjust need to meet your spouse's
needs and then they will meetyours.
And that's actually, if youthink about it, that's the whole
(14:10):
idea behind books like the fivelove languages, or love and
respect, or for women only, formen only.
You just need to figure outwhat each other's needs and they
need to meet those needs.
But the problem is, this wholetransactional view of I'm going
to meet your needs so that youcan meet my needs is based on
the idea that we're starting inthe same place and we may not be
(14:32):
.
So let me tell you a story thatwe open in chapter two with.
So let's picture a couple andthis is kind of a, a
conglomerate of, like all thepeople that write into my blog,
this is one of the most commonscenarios.
So Gabriella and Brad married 10years.
They have three kids.
Gabriella is a nurse.
She does a lot of shift work,she's frequently exhausted, but
she's also got the primary careof the kids, so she's always
(14:55):
juggling schedules and homeworkand making lunch, et cetera.
Brad doesn't do a whole lotwith the children, and so their
sex life had really dwindled tovery little.
And then, six months ago, braddisclosed that he's been using
porn their whole marriage and hewants to stop.
And so what was a sex life onlife support has now become
almost nothing, and so Brad'snot happy with this, because he
(15:16):
needs Gabriela to give him sexso that he can fight the porn.
So he takes Gabriela into thepastor so they can talk about
this.
And Gabriella cries and theytell the pastor the whole story,
and the pastor looks atGabriella and says you need to
understand how much your husbandneeds sex, and so you need to
give it to him and not deprivehim.
And then he looks to Brad andsays and Brad, you need to
(15:38):
understand that your wife needshelp with the children, and so
you need to start doing bathtime, and so they're each going
to meet each other's needs.
Okay, but what if Gabriella isalready doing so very, very much
and all we're doing is addingmore to her plate without Brad
(16:00):
really taking any of that on?
And we talked about this insomething that we called the
marriage hierarchy of needs, andit's lightly based on Maslow's
hierarchy of needs, and his ideais that humans have needs and
if you think of needs as beingin a pyramid, you have your
basic needs, like food, waterand shelter, that you need to
meet before you meet some of theother needs, like friendship or
(16:23):
fun or self-actualization andfeeling like you're living at
your purpose.
So no one's worried about sexwhen they're getting chased by a
bear right.
Like you know, you got toprioritize and what often
happens in a marriage is thatone spouse and it often is women
is stuck in that very bottomtier where they're barely
surviving.
So they're making sure the kidsare getting out the door in the
(16:45):
morning on the school bus,they're getting lunches made,
they're doing laundry, they'rebarely sleeping they're just
barely surviving, while theirspouse is actually able to rest
and have hobbies and they're upat a higher tier.
And then you tell them thatthey need to compromise and it's
like OK, wait a minute.
What actually needs to happenis that Brad needs to get down
(17:08):
in the trenches with Gabriella,and only once Gabriella isn't in
survival mode do you get totalk about the things that Brad
needs really how entitlementworks is.
Entitlement happens whensomeone is operating at a much
higher tier and in so doing,they are pushing their spouse
(17:29):
down to survival mode, but theyfeel like they are the one who
is being deprived.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
When reality is they can't really do anything else.
Exactly and we see this oftenin ministry couples, you know so
like one person is out everynight with meetings at the
church and they're living outtheir vision and their calling
from God, but at the same time,their spouse is drowning.
And if their spouse tries totalk to them about this, it's
(17:56):
like, well, you just don't haveenough faith, right, Don't you
support God's calling on ourlives?
But if someone's drowning,they're drowning and you need to
understand that you're beingentitled because you're
expecting from your spouse whenyou haven't really built into
your spouse.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Right, yeah, and in the ministry capacity and I will
just say this about that Godnever asks you to sacrifice your
family on the altar of ministry.
That is not in the Bibleanywhere.
And when people do that and goall in, my question is why?
What is it that you are gettingin your identity from this?
That is outside of God, becausereally, where they are is
(18:35):
idolatry, and that is somethingthat has to be attacked, right,
and I think in some evangelicalcircles it is that the man gets
to do what he wants and the wifejust gets to come along and do
what she's supposed to, and thatis so not at all what the Bible
teaches.
God does not ever put a woman ina one down position.
(18:56):
In fact, he usually puts themin an equal position.
The first person to be toldthat he is the Messiah is the
woman at the well and theSamaritan woman at the well.
And then the first person tosee that that he is the Messiah
is the woman at the well, andyou know, the Samaritan woman at
the well.
And then the first person tosee that he rose from the dead
is Mary Magdalene A woman, youknow and she was very much,
definitely a woman.
You know, even though there's afew times in Scripture people
try to say that somebody wasn'ta woman, who was in fact
(19:18):
actually a woman, junia comes tomind.
Yes, but you know, when we lookat that it's like this is not
what God says.
And if you believe the Bibleand you say you do, then it
should look a lot different thanwhat we're seeing in how
marriage is languaged.
And I think about compromise,the way that you're using it,
(19:39):
and I want to define it a littlebit for the audience here,
because there's a couple ofdifferent ways to think about
compromise.
Compromise here is I'm givingup myself, the way that you're
talking about it when we talkabout entitlement, and that's
where we look into that coercionand control space you owe me,
you are owned by me is what thatkind of compromise is Healthy
(20:01):
compromises.
We have an impasse and we haveto work through it.
And for me, as a person who'svery highly trained in couples
therapy and Gottman method andemotionally focused couples
therapy and all of that, I thinkof the compromise ovals and the
thing that kept coming to mymind while I was thinking about
that is where everybody hearsthe different needs and you
really look at what's underthose needs and what they're
(20:21):
saying, what the emotions are,what their stories are about it.
You know, and some of that isn'teven from the marriage, it's
from their own childhood andtheir life before they were
married.
And then you go what do we needto do to get through the
impasse?
And that's healthy compromise.
I remember saying this tocouples all the time when I
would do this exercise with themeverybody loses something in a
healthy compromise.
(20:42):
You decide what are yournon-negotiables, what can I not
move, and then you want thatcircle to be as small as
possible, and then everythingelse is subject to change.
And both parties do that, notjust one, not just the wife, and
that is the right kind ofcompromise.
So I just want to make sure,because the English language can
be super tricky on occasion.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
And I want to make sure we're talking about this in
ways that people understand.
Compromise in the way thatyou're using it is subjection,
yeah, it is.
And when you read things likethe five love languages, where
and you'll hear, well, he has aneed for physical touch, right,
and she has acts of service, andso he needs to do the dishes
(21:24):
and then she needs to give sex,it's like hold on a second.
What is the bigger picture,what is actually happening in
the marriage?
And that's what's often notasked, right.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And you know there are differences.
There are things that peopleprefer.
Acts of service might be apreference.
Physical touch, though, isn't aneed only for a man.
Acts of service might be apreference.
Physical touch, though, isn't aneed only for a man.
There is a ton of research outthere that we all have
essentially what amounts to skinhunger is what one of my
friends calls it.
We all need to be touched, andthere's actually protective
(21:54):
factors from hugs.
So I always tell folks,especially survivors of abuse,
I'm going to hug you awkwardlyfor at least 20 seconds because
I want to get the oxytocinflowing for you because they may
be lacking physical touch, andthat is, it increases our immune
system and all of these things.
So everybody needs it, right.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
But interestingly, when we in our survey and we had
couples answer this so we couldsee both how the husband
answered and the wife and howthey impacted each other, but I
think it was almost 50 percentof men chose physical touch as
their love language and when youdrill down on it, the men who
chose physical touch were morelikely to also have issues with
(22:32):
emotional regulation, to have adifficult time sharing deep
things with their wife.
So it's like they are channelinga lot of their needs for
intimacy into sex, because quiteoften people see physical touch
as sex, even though it's farmore, as you were just saying,
and that doesn't mean thateverybody who says they have
physical touches or lovelanguage does that, but they're
(22:53):
just more likely to.
And that's what we see over andover again is, for a lot of the
love languages, the thing thatyou say is your primary need is
actually a deficit.
So women who choose acts ofservice as their main love
language are far more likely tobe doing an oversized proportion
of the housework.
So it's like, is acts ofservice truly her love language
(23:13):
or is she just drowning Right?
Like we need to look a littlebit closer at some of these
things rather than just take asuperficial framework that so
many Christian marriage booksare based on.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, I want to circle back to the emotional
regulation piece for men,because I think that they've
been societally habituated andnot all men, but a lot of men to
not be able to talk about theiremotions, to say this is what a
real man is, is he strong andhe doesn't cry, and all that
other stupid stuff.
But then you have these poor menthat are like I have all these
(23:46):
feelings, I don't know what todo with it, I'm not allowed to
have, and so I'm going to eitherbe grumpy, because a lot of
depression comes out as anger,or I'm going to say well, have
sex with me, because in thosemoments I do feel vulnerable and
close.
And I think about gosh, what ifit was something where we, as
the body of Christ, reallychanged the narrative and said
what if we said amen, jesus weptshortest verse in the Bible,
(24:09):
which is also wailing.
It's like a wailing weeping.
And why don't we teach us allto be whole people?
And you may have a preferencefor one type of love language
air quoting that you knowpreference for one type of love
language air quoting that youknow, then another, but also
like then you are learning thata physical co-regulation that
comes from physical touch.
You know, I think about likewhen, as a parent and you've
(24:32):
probably done this with your kidyou know when they were just
really having a moment, you gavethem a big, tight hug.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
You know and your calm body calmed theirs or you
take them by the hand, look themstraight in the face and just
deep breathing and they you know, they mirror you and it's just
very lovely.
But I've often said and my dreamfor the church would be that
instead of pushing young peopleinto marriage as their main goal
(24:59):
because I think that's what wedo is we tell kids that marriage
is your main goal.
I wish we could teach emotionalwholeness and health as the
main goal, Because then if somepeople don't get married, it's
not like you've failed or likeyou're not as good a Christian
right, Because marriage is notthe goal of the Christian life.
If anything, marriage isdownplayed in the New Testament.
(25:21):
But then if people do getmarried, they're much better
prepared for it because they'reemotionally healthy and whole,
and I wish we could do more ofthat in the church and that's a
big part of what we do, our lastsection in the Marriage you
Want.
So there's two chapters on justhow to create that kind of
emotional connection andemotional awareness and
(25:41):
emotional language, especiallyif you grew up not being able to
, if you weren't ever taught howto speak out loud what your
emotions are, if you don't evenknow how to identify them
yourself and a lot of menespecially don't, but some women
don't either how do you get tothe point where you can?
Because how in the world areyou going to feel loved, how in
the world are you going to feelknown and accepted if you can't
(26:05):
share your feelings, if youcan't share who you really are
with your spouse?
Yeah Right, you're never goingto be able to experience real
intimacy until you can getvulnerable and share who you are
.
But a lot of us aren'tcomfortable with that.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
It feels scary, right , because you know that we all
carry around some level of shameand, like none of us gets out
of here alive, right, we allhave wounds that we carry.
Some of them are bigger thanothers, but we want to have our
partners see us and love us,like you said at the very
beginning of this conversation,and that is such an important
thing.
And when we say that marriagemirrors Jesus and the church,
(26:43):
that is what it means.
You know, that knowing andloving and unconditional love
and all of that.
And that doesn't mean we don'tbring up problems, it doesn't
mean that we don't have to workthrough things and it doesn't
mean it's always nice, neat,tidy.
There's messy parts.
But if we see each other asimage bearers and have that, I'm
with you in this and I want toknow you and I want to work with
(27:03):
you, I want to be with you, itchanges the game for people all
over?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, exactly, I think that's something that's
missing from a lot of Christianmarriage books, because what
normally the books do is theysay, hey, the main thing that
you need to understand aboutmarriage is that there's
different roles for men andwomen, and so if you can just
latch onto these roles and livethem out, your marriage is going
to be awesome.
And that doesn't work.
We've actually measured it.
(27:32):
And when you live like that,with the husband being an
authority over the wife becausethat's usually what they mean
your marriage is worse.
So people who go through lifewith believing that the husband
should make the final decisionand that the husband needs
respect in a way that the wifedoesn't, their marriages end up
worse.
(27:52):
They're more likely to divorce.
They feel less emotionallyconnected.
It's all just a big bag of badfruit.
But when you go through life asa partnership, where you make
decisions together and you prayabout things together and you're
really a team, marriages reallythrive.
And I think that's why so muchof our work at Bare Marriage has
(28:14):
been looking at these Christianmarriage books that have been
out there and what messagesthey've had.
And people often say to me doyou just hate all books?
Because every book you read youfind problems with and it's
like no, it's not that I'mdeliberately trying to hate all
books, but up till nowevangelical marriage books have
been based on a false premise.
And if you have a faultypremise then everything that
(28:38):
flows from there is going to beunhealthy.
And that's our faulty premisethat men are supposed to be an
authority over their wives.
It doesn't work.
It doesn't, it isn't from Jesus.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
And I know there are people that are going to look at
some scriptures and go well,christ is the head of the
husband, the husband's the headof the wife, whatever.
I think we need to look at whatelse is in scripture.
You know, good hermeneutics isyou look at the whole word of
God.
Right, you interpret scriptureby scripture, if you're doing it
correctly, and so you can takethat if you want to proof text
(29:10):
that.
But that's not actually goingto get you anywhere.
So you better drop intoEphesians and go submit one to
another as you submit to God.
Right, it starts with oursubmission to the Lord, and
submission is not subjugation.
Those are not even the sameword in the Greek or the English
, frankly.
And so when you look at thatand you go, ok, what does this
really mean?
Right, what does head mean here?
(29:32):
What does submission mean?
What are we supposed to do?
How do we live?
And when you look at it in itsentirety, it is much more
partnership.
It in its entirety, it is muchmore partnership.
And Jesus says, when he'swashing the disciples' feet I'm
doing this as an example, right,you are not going to be like
the Gentiles that lord over eachother.
(29:52):
I don't know how much moreclear you can be on that.
And this is the leader.
He spoke the world intoexistence.
He could have yeeted them offthe planet.
He could just make physics notwork.
He's jesus and he's saying thisis how I want you to live.
And that is such a beautifulpicture of power with and power
under, and that is a differentmatter and it works.
(30:15):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
It's almost like jesus created it I know, like
it's almost like yeah, actinglike Christ makes us healthier,
yeah, but when we go afterauthority and power, it makes us
less healthy.
And interestingly, I found thiskind of curious because in the
book we have a lot of charts.
So what we'll show is you know,if you believe this, here's how
(30:37):
it impacts all these differentareas of your life.
So if you believe that thehusband should make the final
decision and you act that out,how does it affect whether or
not you have shared hobbies?
How does it affect her libido?
How does it affect whether youfeel like you can laugh with
your spouse, like we have allthese different charts?
And that idea that the husbandmakes the final decision is
highly correlated with all ofthe markers for emotional
(31:01):
immaturity.
Correlated with all of themarkers for emotional immaturity
.
So people who don't have aseasy time emotionally regulating
, people who are more prone tooutbursts, anger outbursts, who
are more passive, aggressive,those people are more likely to
choose that kind of decisionmaking.
And you wonder is it a chickenor an egg?
Is it?
People who are more emotionallyimmature are drawn to that
(31:22):
wonder.
Is it a chicken or an egg?
Is it people who are moreemotionally immature are drawn
to that, or is it that the morethat you practice that, the less
you mature?
and I think it's a bit of both Ithink so because when the
husband gets to make the finaldecision, then you don't ever
learn problem solving.
You don't ever learn how totruly wrestle through an issue,
how to pray together aboutsomething, how to wait, how to
be patient, how to researchwrestle through an issue, how to
pray together about something,how to wait, how to be patient,
(31:44):
how to research Like you don'tlearn, he just gets to do what
he wants and she has to go alongwith it, and she doesn't learn
how to bring up issues, becauseshe's been told to do so is
sinful.
And so we see in thesemarriages a lot of just genuine
emotional immaturity, and that'ssomething that I think the
evangelical church needs toreckon with is that much of
(32:07):
their advice does end up inthese negative spaces.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
It does and, honestly , I've seen it go to the point
where it gets people killed,right Because when?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Well, that's the other side.
Is that it gets abusive?
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, yeah, and I think it's hard, I think, at
times for people to use the Aword right Abuse Because I've
never met a woman that satacross from me and wanted to use
that word for her situationwhen it was very much applicable
.
And it is breeding.
That, though corrupt, and thatsense of entitlement that you
(32:49):
talk about in the book and thatthe Bible talks about is the
heart of Satan.
I will stand through it and belike the most high.
That was what his goal was, andthat is the heart of a
coercively controlling abuserLike that is what Jesus do, you
know.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
In Philippians 2, it said that he gave up his power,
right, right.
He didn't consider equalitywith God something to be grasped
or held on to.
He laid it aside.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
And that's not what our Christian men have been
taught.
Our Christian men have beentaught you are the leader.
You need to stand up and lead.
It's like, no, you don't.
You need to take initiative.
We all need to take initiative,and this is what's actually
quite interesting is when womensay they want a spiritual leader
and most women do say they wanta spiritual leader.
Multiple of our studies haveshown that.
(33:32):
But when you actually dive downand you ask, what do you mean by
that?
She doesn't mean someone whomakes the decisions.
She doesn't mean someone whotells me what to do or someone
that I have to respect who won'trespect me back.
What she means is someone whowill start prayer with the
family.
She means someone who willnotice when Johnny and Jenny are
(33:54):
fighting and will figure outhow to help Johnny and Jenny
stop fighting, Right?
Well, she's not talking aboutsomeone who's an authority over
her.
She's saying I want my husbandto take initiative and notice
what's going on in the familyand involve himself in that and
get down in the trenches with me.
It's all things she's alreadydoing.
(34:17):
She's noticing when Johnny andJenny are fighting and she's
trying to get in the middle ofit.
You know she's praying with thekids, and so she's not asking
him to do something she's notdoing.
She's just saying I want him todo it with me.
I asking him to do somethingshe's not doing, she's just
saying I want him to do it withme.
I want him to be as emotionallyinvested in this as I am.
And we call that spiritualleadership.
When he does it, we call itnothing.
(34:39):
When she does it right, we justignore it.
It's like assume that's whatshe's supposed to do, but we
give it a special name when hedoes it Right.
And it's like I wish, insteadof talking about spiritual
leadership, we could just simplysay hey, people, you know what
really works in a marriage istaking initiative.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, it's this concept called mutuality.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Exactly, yeah, and it's modeled by Jesus and we
both need to be doing it.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, yeah, and it's modeled by Jesus and we both
need to be doing it, yeah, yeah.
And then when you look at theearly church in the book of Acts
, right when the Hellenists cameand they're like we have a
problem, you know, the discipleswent and looked and went all
right, how are we going to solveit?
And what they didn't tell theHellenists was you don't get
served, what?
they said was let's delegatethis appropriately and like kind
(35:27):
of figure it out.
And in marriage that's kind ofwhat we do, right?
You know, if you've married aprofessional chef and he is a
male, then perhaps he's going todo the cooking.
Now he might not want to.
You guys can work through allof that stuff.
But you know you were talkingabout those traditional gender
roles and all of that.
There's nothing wrong with astay-at-home dad.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
There's nothing wrong with a stay-at-home dad.
He works and she's astay-at-home parent.
It doesn't hurt you, it reallydoesn't, unless you think that
you're supposed to do it thatway.
And as soon as you think you'resupposed to do it that way,
then you start to see thenegative repercussions.
You start to see lower maritalsatisfaction, et cetera, because
you're not acting out ofauthenticity, you're acting out
of obligation and duty, andoften you're not acting out of
(36:26):
out of authenticity, you'reacting out of obligation and
duty, and often you're becomingsomeone you're not yeah and you
know it's okay to be the personthat God called you to be.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
It's okay to be the, the couple that God called you
to be together in a way thatthat works best for both of you
absolutely eight years ago, whenI was pregnant this is now many
years ago I was in a church andI, god, had told because I
thought I was supposed to be astay-at-home mom I thought that
was the rule.
I thought this is how you do it, right?
And God was like oh sweet thing, that is not what you're going
to do.
(36:56):
And he was so clear you aregoing to work.
And I was like am I going?
One telling you?
And I was like okay, I remembergoing to women's Bible study
and I had wrestled through itand I was like this is what I'm
going to do.
And I was pulled aside by thewife of an elder and she was
older and she said I'm soworried for your soul.
And I was like well, I was too,until God told me I shouldn't
(37:19):
be.
And she was like but Tabitha,my goodness, like the Bible says
.
And I remember looking at her.
It's probably one of the firsttimes I kind of put on some
sassy pants and I said can youshow me where?
Well, I mean it's in there.
And I said but can you show mewhere?
Can you show me the scripturethat says I have to do that?
And she goes well, proverbs 31.
(37:40):
I had grown up inevangelicalism.
That said, proverbs 31 was likedemure and mindful and quiet and
like had no voice and whateveryeah, and I went and read it and
I was like, I was like, um, I'msorry, she's a baller and a
shot caller, like she was atough cookie and she's out there
buying and selling fields anddoing all these things and I'm
like, I am like her, I am, I'mgood and and that poor lady she,
(38:04):
and no shade to her.
I think it is how she'd beenraised and what she truly
believed, and I think she reallywas worried for me and I want
to give grace for that, and Ithink sometimes in this day and
age it can be hard to give gracefor people who are really
entrenched in places, and so Igive her a lot of grace because
that's just where she was.
But I'm so grateful that Godwas like no, no, that's not what
(38:25):
I have for you, and in mysituation he knew what was
coming for me.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
And I think that's God's voice to this generation,
right, like?
I think God's voice to thisgeneration is that he has a new
thing.
He wants to set people free,and in the evangelical church we
have so put people in cages andwe've taught them things that
hurt them, and it's been acrossthe board.
(38:50):
I think of Jimmy Evans' bookMarriage on the Rock, which says
that men have a need fordomestic support, like men have
a need for wives to do thehousework His needs, her needs
says the same thing that menhave a God-given need for wives
to look after the house.
And it's like how does thateven work?
That's, it's nowhere inscripture, nowhere.
(39:12):
And yet these books areteaching us that men have this
need and most people say thatsex and money are the two
biggest problems in marriage.
Okay, but we actually measuredthis.
So we measured maritalsatisfaction on a scale of one
to a hundred.
And when you have moneyproblems, your marital
satisfaction goes down scale ofone to a hundred.
And when you have moneyproblems, your marital
satisfaction goes down by fivepoints, and most people are in
(39:33):
like the 65 to 90 range.
So five points is actuallyquite substantial when you go
from having sex more than once aweek to having sex once a month
, your marital satisfactionfalls 10 points.
So that's, you know, fairlysubstantial.
But when you go from doing halfthe housework to doing 90% of
the housework, your maritalsatisfaction falls 30 points,
(39:55):
even if you're a stay-at-homemom, like.
The thing that is really hurtingmarriages is not sex and it's
not money, it is mental load andthe distribution of housework,
because so much is being put onwomen.
You know, like to remembereveryone's doctor's appointment,
to remember that if Johnny isgoing to go to karate this week,
(40:17):
you have to.
He's been bullied by Sam and soyou need to go and watch and
make sure that Sam's mom isaware of this, that Sam can't
come to.
You know you're carrying allthis stuff in your head all the
time and it's exhausting and weneed partners and when women
(40:41):
don't have a partner it reallyreally affects marital
satisfaction.
So we need to stop making itseem like a fairy tale that
she's going to be the familymanager and take on all of these
roles and it's all going to beokay, because that's what God
meant for she can't.
It's too exhausting, she'sgoing to burn out, and we found
(41:05):
that, like in the first fiveyears.
If does that, it doesn't botherher that much.
But by year 10 it's starting toreally bug her.
By year 15, she's really mad.
And by year 20 she's done yepand then the kids are out of the
house and she divorces yeah,yeah, and so it's like you can't
live like that no and we foundthat for so many things, like
(41:25):
for your sex life, we found thatsame curve, like that same
unfairness threshold where itdoesn't bother you at first but
by 20 years you're done and likeif she's having sex it's
unsatisfying.
She can put up with that in thefirst few years, you know she
doesn't know what else to expect, but she can't keep doing that
for 20 years Over and over again.
In all of these measures whatwe found is that it's often
(41:47):
women who are getting reallytaken advantage of.
It is men in the evangelicalchurch who are acting entitled,
and that doesn't mean that nowoman is entitled.
It doesn't mean that no womanis the problem in her marriage.
But when you look at it in bigpicture terms, the systems that
we've set up in the evangelicalchurch really do set up men to
be prioritized and it is hurtingmarriages.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know just kind of
as we land the plane heretogether, the way out is to
really look at real discipleshipfrom excellent theological
standpoints, right.
So when we are saying, actuallysome of the things we've taught
weren't helpful, you know,maybe they were the best we knew
at the time, I can give thatgrace.
We know what we know when weknow it.
But we're not going to keep thesame system anymore.
(42:33):
We're going to language itdifferently, we're going to
teach it differently, we'regoing to invite men into a
different place and women into adifferent place.
We're going to honor all of thevoices of the image bearers.
I think it was Jen Wilkin thatsaid maybe sometime this year.
Earlier this year on theKnowing Faith podcast, she said
that when she looks at scriptureand you look at the leadership
(42:53):
of, like the church in Rome oryou know who Paul thanks, it's
like one third women and if youlook at any church's website you
do not see that and Jen's apretty solid complementarian.
So you know, when you look atthat and you go we aren't doing
this.
Well, we're not having a voiceof all of the image bearers.
(43:13):
If I have something of theimage of God in me and you have
something of the image of God inyou and men have something of
the image of God in them, thenwe are all needed at the table.
And I think that it could startthere and really looking at the
water that people have swum inand go, do we want to stay here
or do we want to change thechemicals?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, exactly, and let's stop focusing on roles and
hierarchies and systems andlet's start focusing on
wholeness and health and showingup with everything you are,
including your giftings, butalso your emotions, yes, you
know, because that's what makes,that's what makes relationship,
that's what makes intimacy.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
There isn't a system that is going to give you
intimacy.
There's only health and beingvulnerable and being authentic.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Right and people.
Other people and men needintimacy as much as women, and I
think, that has been somislanguaged and you know, I
think anytime that you do workin abuse like me, or you write
about sex and talk about how itis for women like you, people
call us man haters and I've hadthe privilege of talking to you
(44:21):
before.
We are not man haters.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
And we believe men can be whole and wonderful and,
yeah, that they can feel a wholerange of emotions and that they
can express their giftings andthey don't need women to be
their sin management tools, likewe believe great things of men,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
And we want to see flourishing for both, and I
think, as we close this out,that would be my parting thought
.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
What parting thoughts would you like to give our
audience?
I just want people to know thata marriage that is fulfilling
and that is lovely is what Godwants for you, and I think we
hear so much that marriage ishard and you just need to tough
it out.
And I just want to tell peopleI'm not about telling you to
(45:10):
stay in a marriage you hate.
I'm about saying, hey, how canwe actually create something
that we love, where we canflourish, because God wants you
to flourish?
So let's figure out how to getthere, instead of just telling
people oh, just suck it up,that's just the way it's
supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Yeah, instead of just telling people oh, just suck it
up, that's just the way it'ssupposed to be.
Yeah.
And for all of the people who Iknow just said in their hearts,
of hearts well, God said thathe wants us to be holy, not
happy, flourishing when thewhole different matter.
It's right, it's not inscripture, and flourishing is a
whole different matter rightFlourishing doesn't mean you're
(45:55):
always happy, but it does meanthat you're always growing and
there's another word that Iwould use, that is an s word
sanctification.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Right, and that is part of all of this, and we grow
and sanctification.
Let me say this toosanctification is not about
making you sinless.
Sanctification is about makingyou more and more like jesus,
which means making you more andmore whole.
Yes, yes, like yes, walkinginto this image that we're
supposed to be bearing Right.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Absolutely, and I think that your book helps move
us in that direction.
The book is the Marriage youWant and you wrote it with your
husband, keith, and it isamazing and I definitely commend
it.
First of all, I commend all ofyour books to everybody.
They're on my like you shouldgo read this list.
We give them out in our practiceall the time and we are so
grateful for your voice, for therisks that you've taken, and I
(46:33):
do want to honor that as we end.
Anytime a woman has a strongopinion in the evangelical world
, you get called all kinds ofthings.
I personally have been called azombie spirit, a Jezebel spirit
, woke, all sorts of stuff, anintegrationist, as if that's a
terrible thing or whatever.
But you know, I just want tothank you for taking those hits.
I want to thank you for beingbold and for speaking out and
(46:57):
for being who God created you tobe and letting us all benefit
from the gifts that he's givenyou, and thank you for hanging
out with me.
Thank you, it's been great to behere and we will have all of
your information in the shownotes, so if people want to find
you, find your books, they willbe able to do that.
And thank you again so much forbeing here.
And you know everybody.
(47:18):
Go follow Sheila, she's amazing.
Thanks for joining me fortoday's episode of hey Tabby.
If you're looking for aresource that I mentioned in the
show and you want to check outthe show notes, head on over to
tabithawestbrookcom forwardslash.
Hey, tabby, that'sH-E-Y-T-A-B-I and you can grab
(47:40):
it there.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
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