Leave me a note-I'd love to hear from you!
What do you do when everything that once defined you begins to shift?
In this heartfelt conversation, Lindsay Swoboda joins me to talk about navigating life after her husband’s military retirement, launching her first book, and learning to balance who she is as a writer, wife, and woman in transition.
Together, we talk about the tension between holding on and letting go, how dreams evolve, how relationships change, and how creativity can feel both healing and heavy at the same time. Lindsay opens up about the hidden struggles behind creating something deeply personal, the emotional weight of identity shifts, and the courage it takes to keep showing up through uncertainty.
If you’ve ever felt caught between where you’ve been and where you’re headed, this conversation will remind you that change doesn’t erase you, it reveals who you’re becoming.
Lindsay's Book and Author recommendations: 📚
Nicole Gulotta "Wild Words": https://www.nicolemgulotta.com/
Stephanie Duncan Smith Substack Slant Letter "What Publishing Can and Cannot Do For You"
Anne Lamott "Bird by Bird" quotes
Barbara Brown Taylor: https://barbarabrowntaylor.com/
All the links to connect with Lindsay:
IG: @lindsay.swo www.instagram.com/lindsay.swo/
Substack: The Eleven O'Clock Number | Lindsay Swoboda | Substack
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/lindsayswo
Email: hello@upliftinganchor.com
Thank you for listening to Hidden Chapters!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Genevieve (00:00):
Hi, this is Genevieve.
Thank you so much for taking amoment out of your day to
listen.
You're tuned into HiddenChapters, the podcast where we
uncover the stories you don'tusually hear, the ones behind
the highlight reels and everydaysmiles.
Today, I'm thrilled to welcomeLindsay Swoboda, an editor and
first-time author with a passionfor telling true stories and
(00:22):
inspiring fellow creatives tofind their spark.
Her debut memoir, Holding Onand Letting Go, A Life in
Motion, is a book that takes usthrough her journey as a
military spouse, exploring howshe made space for grief and
goodness, while discoveringpurpose across a myriad of
overseas duty stations.
Beyond writing, Lindsay findsjoy in nature, reading great
(00:45):
books, and building strongcommunities.
In our conversation today,we're going to talk about two
huge chapters and milestones inher life.
Life after the launch of herbook, digging into some of those
hidden chapters between herbook chapters, and her about
what's next on her journey.
So let's turn the page anddiscover the hidden chapters
behind Lindsay's story.
(01:06):
All right, so hey, Lindsay,we're finally here.
So excited to have you onHidden Chapters for season two.
I
Lindsay (01:17):
am so thrilled to be here.
I feel like How this has likeevolved with the two of us of
both of us having a friend incommon and then you jumped
willingly onto my book launchteam.
It has been just such a naturalprogression and to almost wrap
book season talking to you is areal pleasure.
(01:43):
bit of reflective work on thetheme of your book and get to be
with you in that before phase,it is great that I get to come
back and go, all right, so let'stalk about the after phase.
A whole different
Genevieve (02:04):
beast.
Absolutely.
So talking about your launch,it was huge.
You not only did your releaseof your book, but your husband
also retired after 21 years ofservice as a Marine.
So that's two massivemilestones you and your family
went through with all the highsand lows that come with that.
(02:24):
So how's it going?
Lindsay (02:28):
How is it going?
Yeah.
What was crazy is that I feellike that season, the book came
out May 6th, I believe.
I should know that.
But that weekend prior to it,we decided to have his
retirement ceremony.
So his end of active servicewasn't coming until the end of
(02:51):
September.
But all the big things werefalling in May.
And at first I thought, why arewe doing your retirement
ceremony in May if you don't getout until September?
But his commanding officer thatwas here was of course going to
PCS this summer.
And so he was like, I reallywant this person to be who
speaks at my ceremony.
(03:13):
And now after having attendedthe ceremony, which is a whole
different story on its own, likeit didn't feel real to me at
all, just walking in and sittingdown and being like oh this is
for us like how many more ofthese have I been to that
weren't us and now it's us andthere's just so many things you
can prepare for and so manythings you can't I think that is
(03:33):
military life especially butalso life in general and I would
say that was kind of booklaunch season two there were so
many things that I could preparefor that I tried to plug and
play I'm a very strategicthinker so I knew the things
that I needed to take off myplate in order to survive the
(03:57):
season well.
However, there were still justa lot of things that caught me
off guard that even though wewere trying to be fully present
and live in the moment andcelebrate all the little things
that were happening, there weresome disappointing moments where
I just felt like I couldn't bethere for my kids or for my
friends in the way that Inormally am just because your
(04:20):
presence and you're pulled in somany different directions so
there was a lot of just needingto be gentle with myself on hey
you've never done this beforeyou know you've never stepped
into retirement season togetheryou've never launched a book
before it felt very akin to likea PCS season honestly because
(04:41):
every time people would ask usabout moving they'd be like oh
you're a pro you've done this somany times and I would always
say no I'm it was a differentperson and it different stage of
life every time I experiencedthat move.
So that is kind of what thatseason encompassed was this like
hurry up and wait, like do allthese things you need to do and
(05:02):
still have 20 more that you needto do and wonder when you're
going to sleep and remain a kindhuman.
I mean, there's all of theself-care talk and I get it, but
there are some seasons whereyou're just like, oh, you know,
I can't always be the toppriority.
So this five minute thing I'mdoing has to be enough to kind
of support me through the day.
And yeah, that is how it feltlike and how we're doing now.
(05:28):
We can get into and it's hardto discuss how it felt like
because you don't want to comeacross as ungrateful for the
experience.
Right.
I am still, you know, full ofgratitude for what I
experienced.
And there are parts of the factthat I'm an author now that
don't feel real either.
Genevieve (05:47):
Yeah.
Well, I imagine it's likeexpectations.
You know, you have this in yourhead of what the expectation,
what it might look like.
But you have no idea untilyou're actually walking through
that.
So what were maybe one or twothings that you did expect or
maybe one or two things thatreally surprised you the most?
Lindsay (06:03):
Yeah, I think what I didn't expect is choices that I
needed to make in the moment.
Like we are currently still ahomeschooling family and I
didn't expect to just say theschool is done for now.
Like we walked into the springand I was like, one, we live in
Texas it's so hot there is noreason that I need to keep going
(06:24):
now because this is ourbeautiful weather I'm going to
pause everything knowing we cancatch up in the summer and it
will be fine and then notexpecting the things that my
kids were learning in thebackground while I was stepping
into this new role which is youcan survive without me for great
lengths of time you will beokay and then very sweet moments
(06:47):
like my daughter sat and helpedme organize all the book plates
as I was signing them and shemade like lots of little trips
to the the post office with meshe filmed like helped stage and
film some of the reels I wasdoing yeah that's cute I was
doing like musical theaterMonday and she was like oh this
(07:07):
would be a great move for thisand she was like choreographing
it and helping me set it up andand those were those hidden joys
that I thought like I'm gonnajust let them down during this
time frame and it wasn't aboutletting them down it was about
letting them see like mom has aspace to dream as well and I
think that's really powerful Igrew up watching my dad do lots
(07:28):
of road races he's a runner anda cyclist and as a kid I
couldn't be more proud to likestand there and hand out water
cups and like cheer you on asyou ran past me and I felt like
my kids kind of got to stand andcheer me on as I was running
Genevieve (07:44):
this race it was a family affair yeah they were
part of that with you yeah sure
Lindsay (07:48):
yes that's a very good way to put it it was a death
from me, like a family effort.
And we always call ourselves,like we call ourselves Team SWO.
And it was a real Team SWOmoment.
Now, like the griefs I couldn'tanticipate have been numerous,
like just...
um, as we finished, not justbook lunch, but Ryan getting
(08:11):
out, um, that last few months,you know, he's gone on to do
skill bridge and all thesedifferent things, but I missed
the day he was coming home inhis uniform for the last day,
like last time.
And I had wanted to get back intime, but the kids and I were
out doing something.
I just missed it.
And it doesn't, that doesn'tmean anything.
It doesn't have to meananything unless I want it to
(08:32):
mean something, but I amobviously still holding onto it
as I'm sure Because I wish I hadbeen there for that.
Like, like now I haven't seenhim wear it again.
And I'm like, oh,
Genevieve (08:44):
that was it.
I understand.
Yeah, because I do kind of missthe uniforms.
I miss having Chris get dressedin the morning and he changed
uniforms over the course of the20, the 18 years that we were
together.
He had three different uniformstyles that went through in the
army.
But yeah,
Lindsay (09:01):
I understand that.
Little things.
It's little, the little thingsthat are the big things.
Yeah, there's been a lot oflittle wonders during this
season that have been bothexhilarating and exhausting.
And then I think that's funnybecause the title of the book is
Holding On and Letting Go.
And I still think I am a personthat really thinks in two
(09:22):
lanes.
You know, there's always thisboth and happening in our life,
which is what helps meunderstand like the big things I
go through is holding thosethings kind of loosely and
knowing these can both coexistand it is okay.
that they're both here at thesame time.
Yeah, no.
Well, in talking about thatholding on and letting go, both
(09:43):
you and Ryan together faced theleaving military.
It's a shared turning point foryou both.
So was there a tough moment ormaybe a quiet realization from
navigating that together thatyou haven't really been able to
share or just kind of come to arealization from?
Yeah, I think the biggest partof this is we have done many, of
(10:06):
the courses and the supportthat's out there and all of
those things have been helpfulhowever I don't think you can
pick and choose what shakes youwhen and I wasn't prepared for
kind of him coming down off ofthis experience and kind of
(10:26):
going well now what do I want todo yeah I think and I don't
want to speak his story for himso as his being the someone
that's like been behind hiscareer and, you know, kind of
watch things unfold.
I think I felt there would be anatural next step.
And I'm realizing maybe thenatural next step for us is
(10:49):
almost questioning everything.
Not questioning the time innecessarily.
At least I don't.
I'm not questioning that.
But I kind of saying, well, youknow, I'm primed for all of
these things and maybe I don'twant to do any of them.
And making a lot of space forthat while you're also silently
(11:10):
panicking about finances andhaving young children.
And it really is.
the craziest time to kind oftransition from a lifestyle and
a job because you are midlife.
I guess some could say it's thebest time to transition because
you have this other chapterahead of you.
But when you can't define thatchapter yet, you're definitely
(11:34):
in a place of unknowing and I'mreally working to be okay with
that.
Genevieve (11:39):
That's hard.
Yeah.
And being able to talk to you,being on the other side of that,
also being a fellow retiredmilitary spouse, doesn't get any
easier after three years.
You're still kind of going inthis unknown, like, what do I
do?
You're still trying to findthat footing.
But that's great that you canat least recognize that and just
(11:59):
be okay with not knowing.
Lindsay (12:03):
Yeah, I feel like we're both kind of on our own
evolution right now andcontinuing to try to just check
in and have really good, hardconversations together, which
I'm not going to say we do allof those super well, but we're
having them.
And I think that is the point,right?
That's important.
Yeah.
Somebody was asking me like,what's the biggest thing you've
taken away in your militarymarriage?
And I was like, oh, just tryingto have the heartquaking
(12:26):
conversations that no one wantsto have together because in the
end, our world has gotten alittle bit smaller for the time
being until we figure out what'snext.
And we really have each other.
And that either means we'regoing to rely on each other or
dump on each other.
And I think we're just reallybeing like everybody is treading
(12:46):
as kindly and as carefully aswe can.
So, yeah.
Genevieve (12:51):
I had this discussion with a friend
recently about that, too.
It's like you've known thisperson, you've lived with this
person, you've done life withthis person, but you're also
relearning this person.
Like you said, you're both inthis whole new chapter and
season that there are thingsthat both me and my husband,
Chris, have talked about thatI'm like, wait a minute, I never
knew that about you.
(13:11):
So it's an interesting thing ofa relationship.
You think you've knowneverything about that person,
but you really are stilllearning about them and the
person they're becoming in thisnew chapter that they're
exploring with you.
Lindsay (13:25):
Yeah, I almost feel like he's getting permission for
the first time to kind of goback through everything.
Yeah.
And It's been interesting toobserve and watch and be there.
Genevieve (13:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So thinking about your booklaunch or leaving the military,
was there a moment that just hityou like a gut punch or a light
going off that you've keptpretty quiet up until now?
Lindsay (13:52):
Let me think about this one.
Yeah.
I feel like one of the gutpunches for me coming off of
book launch season or just incoming out of the military
really was Ryan's ending speechhe gave at his retirement
ceremony, which was he did areally wonderful job of thanking
(14:18):
our family and friends thatwere there.
And then he did end with me inparticular and just saying,
really just honoring our timetogether, whatever that looks
like next and being excited forthe adventure portion.
And I think that's part ofclosing chapters is like there
(14:44):
are a natural close to thingswhen we're younger, I feel.
And maybe that is not real forsome, but I felt like when you
graduate high school, you know,you're going to have a ceremony,
you're going to have the capand gown, you're going to do the
things.
Same with college, same withbecause I was a performer.
I've been in up to a millionshows where you're going to have
a final night together and youknow it's your last night and
(15:06):
you're going to hang up thecostume.
And there are like veryphysical things you do to finish
something.
And this time, even though wehad the ceremony, we had a book
launch party, it felt very likethere wasn't as much to hang on
to.
It just was happening.
So I felt like I've really hungon to words, which is no
(15:26):
surprise because I'm a writer.
But at the same time, I do.
I feel like I've really held onto the words, like words my
husband has shared with me, theway that the book has impacted
people.
So maybe less of a gut punchand more of like a gentle, like
encouraging stirring to likeremind yourself that all of
these small moments that youpoured into something It does
(15:51):
matter, which is it's sometimeshard to convince yourself of
that because it is hours of mylife I have spent on some of
these projects.
It's hours of our life we'vededicated to this military
atmosphere.
And yet, you know, those thingsdo have endings.
So it's how do we honor themand how do we make sure they
mattered to us?
(16:12):
And we do get to choose some ofthat.
But when others have offeredtheir words of kindnesses or
hearing something from Ryan atthat ceremony Yeah.
That has been, I've like clungto that, I guess is the best way
to say it.
likely that people took theirtime like I think I understood
(16:54):
that maybe heavier than ever toois that time is so fleeting our
attention is very hard togather together these days and
so every word or every pausesomeone has taken to offer their
own like thanks or gratitude orexperience even I've had a lot
(17:16):
of that where people areoffering their own stories to me
after hearing Yeah, I canunderstand that.
So after this whole book launchmomentum, you had to take a
sabbatical in July.
Genevieve (17:36):
Yeah.
Lindsay (17:38):
So what was a hidden struggle or a need that pushed
you to hit pause?
Yeah, I was actually reallyafraid of taking that time off.
I had, you know, my publisheris wonderful.
They did email me and they'relike, tell us, you know, what
you're going to be doing in thenext little bit.
And I was like, I'm not doinganything right now.
And kind of feeling like I had,they weren't pressuring me or
(17:59):
anything.
It just, it was my own feelingsof like, well, should I still
be doing something?
And At the very beginning ofthis process, Ryan and I tried
to be really clear.
And I know I mentioned him alot.
He is my spouse, but he's alsolike my business champion.
Yeah.
My creative champion in thebackground.
(18:20):
And he helps me bring clarityto things, which was, you know,
what will feel like enough?
I don't know if you've seen TheGreatest Showman.
I feel like everybody has.
I love The Greatest Showman.
My girls and I, of course.
Well, that song, right?
Her like, never enough.
Exactly.
I don't want to be neverenough.
Right.
it feels this way too.
(19:09):
And maybe it's military lifethat shaped this in us that
like, we're really good aboutlike getting our heads down
shoulder to shoulder, like let'skeep working.
Like that is just a real thingthat I'm drawn to as a
hardworking individual.
You know, I like pride myselfon that, except for the fact
that like creativity sometimesdoesn't run in tandem with just
(19:33):
putting my head down andcontinuing to work.
Like I felt like by the end ofjune i just had no words left
and for anyone like i justdidn't have words to write
anymore um i felt really drainedand mentally and emotionally
taxed so that's why i chose toget off every time we have pcs'd
(19:57):
i have removed my social mediaapps and i kind of decided this
summer well if the militaryisn't forcing me to reset my
life right anymore i'm going tohave to be the catalyst for that
I'm going to have to choose ifthey're not going to give me a
forced sabbatical or break awayfrom my normal life I am going
to have to force my ownsabbatical on myself before I'm
(20:21):
burnt out before I'm at a placewhere like there's no wisps of
me remaining and so that reallywas what July was all about I
really intentionally scheduledit and I had a hard time logging
out of everything because youfeel like you have this momentum
but the truth is people willfind someone else to click over
on, they will watch differentcontent.
(20:41):
That doesn't mean what youcontributed doesn't matter.
It just means the world willkeep spinning without you and
you can decide to get off thewagon if you need to jump off
the ride.
So I jumped off the ride andthat time of getting back to
normal, really, I just needed tobe able to hear myself again.
I think in a small amount ofthe research I've done from
(21:06):
reading The Anxious Generation,watching numerous things.
You know, I'm not judginganybody for those social media
and internet use.
It's just mine was at an alltime high during launch season.
Genevieve (21:18):
Yeah.
Lindsay (21:19):
And I think, you know, you knew you could do it for
that time, but it wasn't goingto be sustainable after.
And I found myself just pickingup my phone and I'd be like
going to look up something orget on a map and I'd be in the
Instagram.
I'd be like, how did I even getthere?
Yeah, it sucks you in.
(21:47):
these two things for me can'talways run next to each other.
I can be heavily involved for atime and then I have to pull
back because I want my focus tobe elsewhere.
So I went up to my parents'house.
(22:09):
They live alongside a lovelylake and forests and very quiet.
And they're both very craftypeople that have lots of
interests.
So my dad was like down in thebasement playing his guitar and
piddling around in his garden.
And my mom and I would go forwalks every morning and she
loves to sew.
So I actually picked out apattern and cut out a dress and
have you know 75% of a dressmade that I did with her which
(22:33):
it's like all these things likeI'm processing and making things
with my hands and going onwalks those things just like
clear all those kind of atrophycobwebs that we're developing
from spending too many too manymoments in the socials it really
just gave me a hard reset andit's helped me question how I
want to come back now right likethe launch has happened I I do
(22:57):
not need to come back with thesame ferocity that I had.
There's a little bit of a trustfall happening saying like, I
still want to steward this workwell, but I have to release,
like it is a book launch and arelease for a reason.
It has to kind of grow on itsown a little bit here and me
trust that instead of liketightly gripping it.
Genevieve (23:20):
Well, it's really interesting you describing it
that way because I'm getting tosee it from the other side.
Whereas Chris just launched hisbook a couple of weeks ago.
And I think I'm seeing a littlebit of that unraveling.
What do I do?
What do I need to do next?
And we had a heart to heartjust the other day.
And I was like, just be still.
I've known him for so long thathe really has a hard time being
still.
(23:40):
And there's also that militarymentality, like he's got to be
busy.
So it is interesting to seethat point of view as the
non-writer, but watching him gothrough that, he really is still
going, do I need to dosomething else?
What do I need to do?
So trying to be encouraged Ithink that will because I
Lindsay (24:00):
also know I've talked a lot in different conversations
about like, is creativitysustainable?
Yeah.
And I think it's onlysustainable for my end if I
live.
I have to live.
I have to have new experiences.
It's interesting.
I'm like writing an essay aboutthis right now, but I used to
(24:22):
get really annoyed in college.
I had one professor that waslike, Lindsay, you're such a
good student, but sometimes youhave to live.
Sometimes you're not a greatartist because you want to check
the box to get the grade.
You don't want to do the hardwork of like living your story
out so that you can step intothese characters better or
(24:42):
represent a piece in a way thatit needs for it to live beyond
yourself.
And I know that's kind ofwoo-woo, but it is true to me
that I, like I wrote 20something years of our life in
this book and I will havenothing no more life to write
about if I don't go live it.
(25:03):
So yeah, I think it's asurrender almost.
Genevieve (25:09):
Yeah.
But I think it's also great tohear you say you dabbled in
other creativity things too.
Getting away from the socialmedia to do more hands-on stuff.
I mean, writing is of its ownhand-on, but yeah, I crochet, so
I get you.
There's some therapeutic timejust to sit there and count the
stitches, but there is sometherapy and just kind Yeah, I
(25:31):
think the
Lindsay (25:33):
beauty of this now is like even talking with you and
our pre-discussion, and this hasreally helped me work through
some of these things to say,like, one of the authors I
really like, her name is NicoleGulotta.
She has a book called WildWords, and she talks about this
season of visibility, like youare in it and do what you want
to do in it.
And I think that's been hugefor me is kind of looking over
(25:56):
the course of the book launch.
I got to do everything I wantedto do, truly.
Yeah.
I pitched podcasts and hadlovely library meetups and are
doing live book clubs and all ofthese wonderful experiences
that have come from the work Idid.
But it's also, it's also liketime for new work.
(26:16):
Yeah.
So,
Genevieve (26:19):
yeah.
I get that.
Yeah.
So as we were talking about howmuch you've invested into your
book, you've poured a total ofabout six years into this
journey.
So what's a hidden emotionalstruggle from letting that
personal story go free thatmaybe you haven't shared or
talked about yet?
Lindsay (26:41):
Ooh, this is the question, isn't it?
Like this is it.
So I still struggle withanxiety.
It's popped up a lot moreduring this time of us getting
out and me wanting to like graspat control of something.
Like even though I know we'vegot it and even though I have
tools and I can recognize itwithin myself a lot easier when
(27:05):
I feel like I'm feeling out ofcontrol or over spiraling.
Right.
Yeah.
But.
But I think what I thought iswhen you write a book and you
kind of championed yourselfthrough that time period, you're
you're wanting to leave thebook changed.
Yeah.
Like, do you remember the showThe Extreme?
(27:27):
It was an extreme homemaker andthey go in and they
Genevieve (27:30):
used to love Ty Pennington.
Lindsay (27:31):
Yes.
They like people's houses andthey everything would look
different when you came in andthey pay off their mortgages and
you'd be like, my gosh, they'reset up for the dream.
And I imagine that is true.
I imagine that was a huge dreamthat came true.
Yeah.
(28:11):
There's that.
(28:33):
And I had everybody read itthat needed to read it.
That was a piece of a storythat wasn't involving me and
involved more of them.
But I think that was probablylike out of all the hidden
things I could share.
It's that, you know, there's noway to tie a bow on your your
life experiences.
There isn't this like we justrode off into the sunset
(28:56):
forever.
It is.
I'm still living.
I'm still lassoing thetroubles, you know, in the dust.
All of that is still very real.
Genevieve (29:22):
So was there a quote or authors that you used as
inspiration to kind of keep yougrounded during that time when
you were writing?
Lindsay (29:30):
Oh, yes.
I wanted to share both ofthese.
So the first one I had next tomy desk and then let me pull it
up here because I wanted to readit to you guys.
Stephanie Duncan Smith has abook out.
She's also an acquisitionseditor.
I don't know her personally.
I just love her work.
And she writes this substackcalled The Slant Letter.
I'll have to check her out.
(29:52):
I just
Genevieve (29:52):
got on Substack.
Lindsay (29:53):
Oh, welcome to the Substack.
Thank you.
Good to see you over there.
So this quote, I read it in thesame month she sent this letter
out, the same month I wassigning my contract for the book
deal.
And the quote is, it's fairlylong, so I'll try to give it to
you guys.
But it was, name what it wouldtake to be proud of yourself at
(30:14):
the end of the publishingprocess.
Be as specific as you can aboutthat so when time goes by, you
can know with confidence thatyou did everything you intended
to do.
You can't control the outcomes,but you can control your
investment.
It's an expectation settingpractice to ask, what do I want
and why?
Also level with yourself aboutwhat it will cost in your time,
(30:37):
the shape of your life, yourexpenses, your mental and
emotional space and energy.
Often I see a mismatch betweenwhat writers are willing to
invest and a reality check onwhat it will cost them and high
hopes.
So really level with yourselfabout the distance between those
two things.
Genevieve (30:57):
Wow.
Lindsay (30:58):
So good, right?
So
Speaker 01 (31:00):
good.
Lindsay (31:01):
I had that on the corner, like I wrote it down on
a four by six card.
It was blue.
Yeah.
I have since tucked it away,but it was sitting here to be
like, you can give as many hoursto this as you want, but if
you're not clear about the factthat you know, what, what really
matters most to me are projectsthat bring me purpose and feel
(31:25):
purposeful.
And then this family and thefriends that, and the community
that I'm pouring love into.
So the book can do all thesethings and can be all these
things, but it actually doesn't,you know, there is a choice on
whether it changes those thingsthat are the main priority for
me.
So that was one of the things Ijust really loved.
And I'll leave that for youguys there to think on.
(31:47):
I can send you the link.
to the post if you want to putit in the show notes but
Genevieve (31:50):
absolutely
Lindsay (31:51):
yeah she's a beautiful writer and I just feel like her
offering for writers andcreatives is so strong to really
like just level with yourselflike I needed someone to say
that to me
Genevieve (32:02):
yeah
Lindsay (32:03):
um and then also I love Anne Lamott who wrote Bird by
Bird which is like one of themost famous you know writing
books of all time but she alsohas lovely other books as well
that I enjoyed and she has beenquoted saying you know
publishing won't fix you whichis what we're kind of talking
(32:25):
about here with the fact that Istill contend with a lot of the
things in the book that I didn'tlike in the book I didn't write
it like I had resolved it umbut you're I was surprised by
the fact that it wasn't resolvedmyself yeah and um and she's
right you know like someone amentor of my just of mine
(32:45):
described it the other day thatI was like you know you get the
You climb this mountain.
You're published.
And now what?
Well, now you have to startwalking down the mountain and
the valley and up the nextmountain, whatever you decide
that
Genevieve (33:01):
to be.
All that you have learned goingup, you have to make sure you
keep learning as you're goingback down.
Lindsay (33:06):
Which was such a like harrowing realization, you know,
just like, oh, you know.
So it's interesting.
I think I've decided likecoming out of this that you, get
to pick the meaning you get todecide like was that worth it or
not to me it was worth it Ifeel like I have learned and
grown so much in this process Iaccomplished something that I
(33:29):
really meant a lot to me I gotto do it in a time that yes was
crazy because Ryan was gettingout of the military but I this
was the best time for me to dothis I think I would have felt
differently if we had gotten outand I was still trying to
release it like I think thatwould have felt like a different
energy to me so this was thetiming that it was and I was as
(33:51):
prepared for it as I could beand then you know under prepared
for all the other things andthat is just what it is right
that is just living again I feellike I say that a lot but I'm
the older I get the more Irealize I don't I don't know
much of anything like I'm stillfiguring it out
Genevieve (34:09):
right it does not matter how old we are we are
still figuring everything outyeah well something that I loved
and I wanted to ask you aboutis I know from speaking to other
authors and then my own husbandas an author, there were so
many things I know you wanted towrite about, but not everything
fit for page worth or whateverit was that needed to be cut
(34:31):
down.
And so I loved that you hadreferenced Stephen King calling
his cuts his darlings.
And so you made a darlingfolder.
So what are some untoldchapters that you either left
out or still feel reallyimportant that you wish you
could have shared?
Lindsay (34:47):
Yeah.
Yes.
Thank you for asking me thisquestion.
It might be something on my substack I write.
I have kind of a little visionfor the cutting room floor.
You know, I'm like sharing somethings that I wish
Genevieve (34:58):
every author should have one of those.
Great.
Lindsay (35:00):
Here's what's here.
You know, there were thingsthat were cut that were I will
say everything that was removedfrom the book in the editing
process had validity.
I didn't have to like battlewith my team about what stayed
and what went.
Yeah.
Because I felt like theirreasoning was fair.
And I I loved, I worked withTerry Barnes was my
developmental editor and she wasjust wonderful about not
(35:24):
necessarily needing to justifywhy something was being removed,
but like letting me mourn it.
Yeah.
And you have to be like, allright, baby, you know, this is
(35:51):
how we grow up together isletting parts of you go.
But the one story that I regretnot telling, and I think it
could have had a place in there.
I just...
I didn't write it.
And that was when we were inMorocco.
It is like my favorite group ofMarines we were with.
Not that I didn't like all theMarines across all the time
(36:13):
because I liked you all.
But I felt like we were onembassy duty.
We were first posters there.
And much of the team that wegot assembled, they were first
posters too.
And I just felt like we wereall trying to figure it out
together.
On embassy duty, it's like Likethe only time I think across
(36:34):
all branches where an enlistedperson is a detachment
commander, is a commander.
So we really got to invent theMarine Corps that we thought it
should be in that space.
And that was really exciting.
Like I asked all of them whenthey would arrive their favorite
meal and we would come togetherand do family dinners.
And Evelyn at that time, mydaughter was only two and they
(36:57):
all had little, you know, a lotof them had little siblings at
home and they would just play.
lay with her and come over toher house.
And I remember one time comingout, all of these just grown men
and women were holding hands ina circle and singing Ring Round
Rosie with her.
And I just wish I had capturedthat, right?
(37:18):
Like you're living our family'sjourney.
And I felt like I tried todescribe our family and our
community well, but I hope thatI touched on those other
military members that like Iwouldn't have experienced that
had I not been married to myhusband that made this choice.
Right.
That had even during ourretirement party that we had at
(37:41):
our home after every single oneof them that came in the door
was like, what can I do?
Put me to work.
What can I unpack?
Like I had forgotten.
I had forgotten that we are acommunity or at least I
experienced it that just caresabout how we show up for each
other and just does the workeven without being asked to just
(38:02):
lend a hand.
Genevieve (38:04):
Yeah.
Lindsay (38:05):
And so that's something that I feel like isn't
necessarily missing, but is, youknow, I wish I had shared that
because what a dear time to begrowing up together.
Genevieve (38:18):
Yeah.
I think it's hard to share thatmilitary lifestyle with
somebody who maybe not be asfamiliar with military
lifestyle.
Yeah.
relationship that you bond wellwith those that are in the
(39:01):
military so yeah it is normal tojust come walking in as if
they've been there forever andgo what do you need help with
what can I do you know there isno I think we get past the
uncomfortableness and it's justeverybody is there to help in
some way
Lindsay (39:16):
yes offer what you can and I think like you were
talking about that gut punch oneof those gut punches has been
we went to our last family daylike the mandatory family day
the Mando fun is what we call itin the Marine Corps forced
family fun and you know we usedto make fun of it and then being
the ye elder spouse at thislast one I was like but you guys
(39:40):
are this is what makes this sospecial and I know like you may
roll your eyes at you know thecorn hole and whatever the grill
and all of this but this issomething that doesn't come with
every job and it is pretty coolthat we do this
Genevieve (39:55):
yeah no Chris Chris is going to reunion next week
with some old infantry buddies.
And it's so neat to watch hisface as the text messages come
in of who's going.
And, you know, in his infantrydays, I know probably Marines
the same way.
Everybody, you knew of themfrom their last name.
And so when Chris was justsharing with me the other night,
(40:18):
he was like, oh, so-and-so iscoming and so-and-so is coming.
It took me a minute because mybrain in the infantry side, a
lot of them are their last name.
And then in the aviation side,a lot of them called them by
their first name.
So I was flipping floppinggoing, OK, did I meet this
person?
Right.
But it's just I think it wasjust it's more of the point is
the joy that I see in Chris'sface when he's like, oh, he's
(40:40):
going to be there.
He's going to be there.
And it's been 20 years sincehe's seen some of these men.
So I'm really excited for him.
And I and I know how guys are.
They'll all get together andthen forget to do the one thing
that most women are like, pleasetake the photo so you
Lindsay (40:52):
can commemorate it.
Do it at the very beginning.
Everybody just needs to textthem and be like, did you get a
Genevieve (40:57):
So that's what I told him.
I said, please don't forget thephoto.
You haven't seen these guys in20 years or so.
So let's please make sure youat least to memorize it.
Lindsay (41:06):
I love that because I feel like we I've even seen
that.
This was the first summer I sawthat with my daughter that we
have a family.
Actually, I wrote about them inthe book.
They're in the Ecuador phasewith us and they have family
near where we live.
So the past two summers we'vebeen able to connect with them.
And this was like one ofEvelyn's very first friends.
They were really little.
(41:26):
So it was hard for them toremember.
Oh, yeah.
It wasn't that awesome.
Genevieve (42:15):
So in talking about that, you're in this new season
after leaving the military.
What's been the hardest part offiguring out what to do next?
So something that you'refinding strength in now that
maybe you and Ryan are doingtogether now that you're out of
military?
Lindsay (42:33):
Yeah, my gosh, I think.
What excites me and scares meat the same time is the level of
freedom we have in reinvention.
That you're like, oh, we canreally, let's not just, I
thought we would jump intosomething right away and we were
actually driving the other dayand I was like, are you...
you know, is it normal thatlike we don't have anything
(42:56):
lined up yet?
Like, is this normal?
And he was like, well, I don'tknow really what you mean by
normal.
He was like, probably not.
Yeah.
However, he said, when have weever been normal?
Yeah.
In a really fun way.
Like we took overseasassignments kind of when other
people didn't really want to dothat.
Moving from Korea to Hawaii, wesent everything off on a boat,
(43:21):
kept one really annoyingoverhead bin of uniforms to
check in with and medicaldocuments.
Don't ask me why I'm so annoyedby having to heft that around
the world.
But we didn't have kids yet,you know, and we had our
backpacks and we did Europetogether for 30 days.
And that's
Genevieve (43:37):
amazing.
Lindsay (43:37):
That's an experience.
We literally crossed the worldlike we flew into Austria and
went all the way across and thenlanded in New York City to say
hi to my best friend and wentacross the Brooklyn Bridge.
It was like our first time backin America in three years.
So that was fun for it to belike, And then flew from New
York to Hawaii and started ourlife over again on an island.
(43:59):
And I really had to pause and,you know, being a dancer and was
like a performer for half mylife to then transition to
editing and writing.
I mean, you're right.
We have not had a normaltrajectory.
And I think there's strength inthat.
I think there is excitement forthe adventure to come in that.
As long as we continue to likemake space for feeling the feels
(44:21):
that we need to.
to close this chapter out.
And then hopefully that meanswe look back on it with fond
reflection.
Genevieve (44:29):
Chris and I didn't have, well, he didn't have
anything specifically lined upright after, but coming out of
his military career, he reallyneeded to take some time off.
And I'm so grateful that we hadthe provision to do so.
And I was ready to go back towork.
So before I had even jumped in,we had a little bit of time
(44:49):
between the next thing.
I'd like to advocate thatthat's something I think is so
important that couples shoulddo, especially after being 20
plus years in a service.
I've always use the analogy forbeing Army, this rucksack.
We packed this rucksack for somany years and we just didn't
get to have those discussionsbecause of a mission, a
(45:12):
deployment, or whatever it was.
In the end of that career, thatrucksack needed to be unpacked.
And when it got unpacked, noteverything that was in there was
great.
And it was years of resentment,years of something that just
did not get discussed.
We had moments where we had torelearn each other.
(45:46):
hear that you both are havingthat discussion and really
working on that next thingtogether versus trying to have
(46:07):
two separate lanes, figuringthis out.
Lindsay (46:10):
Yeah.
Thank you for saying that.
I feel like it's veryencouraging.
I have heard it more and morethat it was like very scary at
first to think about taking thetime off.
And yet I feel like if we justAnd the next thing we're going
to miss the opportunity to thinkabout it, like to really think
(46:32):
about what works.
of the pension and just be realwith ourselves.
(47:00):
Like how many months can wemake it without, you know,
supplemental income?
And honestly, I am CarolineIngalls over here making
multitudes of things fromscratch and learning how to cook
in a whole new way.
And we're doing a lot of freefamily fun.
And honestly, though, it's beenthere's been some freedom in
this and being like, OK, if itdoesn't happen right away, we
(47:22):
will we will be all right.
We cannot be extravagant by anymeans or do a lot of extras
however it was a real practicalstep for us to take to work
together as a team and then Ifeel like that S has meant a lot
of other things like summer ofsurprises like being surprised
(47:44):
by different moments of beinghome together all the time right
now and I went to my parentshouse and he didn't come with me
for that because he was doinghis certificate program And when
I came home, the freedom beardwas in full.
And I was like, you, I don'teven know about this.
Your face is so fuzzy.
(48:04):
And we've also called it likethe summer of surrender, which
is just like, okay, maybe it'sall right that we don't know
everything.
Oh, that's so good.
I
Genevieve (48:14):
love that you said freedom beard because that's
Chris's too.
Lindsay (48:18):
I've embraced it, but it makes him happy.
Will I see your face again?
Maybe not.
And I'm also, we Both arelaughing and he'll be okay with
me sharing this because I havemultitudes of grays as well.
But I didn't realize that theMarine Corps would not only like
take years, you know, from ourlife in some way, but also take
(48:39):
like a, the color, the color ofhis facial hair swiftly swapped
to a very handsome gray.
salt and pepper quite quickly.
Distinguished gray.
Distinguished gray that Iwasn't anticipating because I'd
never seen it.
Genevieve (48:58):
Oh man.
I love it.
It's funny though.
I think every man that can growa beard, they do and they're
like, I am free.
Lindsay (49:05):
Just look at me grow this thing.
Genevieve (49:07):
Yeah.
It's just funny.
Oh my goodness.
All right.
So I didn't mean to throw youoff, but I think
Lindsay (49:13):
that was actually pretty good.
I loved it.
No, this is good.
Genevieve (49:14):
That was so good.
Okay.
So before we go And then beforewe end this, I would love to
hear you read an excerpt fromyour book that you feel
especially close to you thatyou'd love to share.
So do you have an excerpt inmind?
I
Lindsay (49:31):
do.
I actually wasn't sure exactlywhat I'd share.
And then I kind of let it fallopen to where it fell, you know,
and was like, oh, this isexactly where we should go
today.
So this one where you'refinding me in the story, this is
called The Long Winter.
Oh, yes.
which is also a little nod toone of my favorite Laura Ingalls
(49:52):
Wilder's book, The Long Winter.
But I had landed back inAmerica after almost our 10
years overseas.
I was pregnant again, but wehad a complication with the
pregnancy that made it veryunreal if this was going to make
it to fruition or not.
So at the end of this chapter,Ryan was still back in Ecuador.
(50:14):
He had sent me back early tomake sure I could get the right
medical care.
And my best friend had flowndown to see me and we're laying
in my mother-in-law's guestbedroom together in Ohio, having
a conversation on New Year'sEve.
So this is, this is where youfind me a bit in despair.
(50:35):
So, okay.
So on New Year's Eve, back inthe guest room, Katie and I lie
in bed, staring up at thechandelier together.
We spent the evening battingballoons around the living room
with Evelyn and counting down tothe new year at early eight
o'clock.
Thank goodness four-year-oldscan't tell time.
We call it an early night.
Do you think I'll feel happyagain?
(50:55):
I whisper.
And then I cover my face withmy hands.
I tell her I'm so glad she'shere and I just don't feel like
myself.
I keep thinking I can willmyself to feel better.
Instead, I get a glimpse of theme I can recognize in wavetops
riding up and down on anever-changing tide but shrouded
in gloom.
(51:15):
I keep reaching for an end tothis pain to the to the wanting,
but maybe I have to ride itout.
Katie reaches to squeeze myhand and I let her.
I take enough deep breaths thatI finally fall asleep.
In a week, Katie is back on aplane to New York City and my
in-laws pack up our two new carsplus one of theirs to caravan
(51:37):
down to Virginia with me andEvelyn.
We'll get Ryan from the airportin five days.
The roads wind through Americanforests and fields and I hum
along to songs on the radio.
I've spent much of Decemberasking for help.
I've needed naps, extra doctorvisits and support in giving
Evelyn the love she needs as Imuddle through.
Snow falls as we drive throughthe Oh.
(52:00):
Oh.
Genevieve (52:26):
I have loved reading your book.
You have such poetry in yourwords.
What was it like to write thatpart of your excerpt there?
Lindsay (52:38):
Writing that part forward with Hunter, as you can,
I mean, Genevieve can see me,but I have tears in my eyes
right now because writing thatportion forward was a very
tenuous time for us.
And then kind of thinking aboutthat hope in the dark.
I love this quote by theauthor, Barbara Brown Taylor,
(52:59):
where she shares, um, I'velearned things in the, you know,
there things are just asvaluable.
The things that I've learned inthe darkness is what I've
learned in the light.
Yeah.
And so writing that part of thebook, I think writing through
our hardships and then findingpurpose in them and sharing
them, that is.
the beauty of storytelling.
(53:23):
That's the beauty of yourhidden chapters.
That's the beauty of us causingto connect and communicate
together.
And even though it is hard workto revisit that, even now, it
gives me hope to look back onthat person that I was, that was
still believing and hoping.
(53:46):
Well, I love it.
Genevieve (54:05):
Lindsay, thank you so much for this.
I have enjoyed our conversationand I really, I was looking
forward to getting to get thewhole beginning to end.
And so I'm excited.
And of course, you know, I'llbe here to see what this next
chapter brings for you.
Lindsay (54:23):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate theopportunity to talk through this
in a way that I haven't before.
So thank you for setting thestage so well and making it a
safe and comfortable space inwhich to show up and do so of
course
Genevieve (54:40):
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of
Hidden Chapters.
Lindsay's conversation todaywas a powerful snapshot of the
beautiful tension betweenidentity and change, passion and
duty.
Lindsay's story reads likepoetry across continents, from
Korea to Morocco to Ecuador, andI hope you'll take an
(55:00):
opportunity to pick up hermemoir Holding On and Letting
Go, A Life in Motion.
It reminds us to embracedifficulty and challenges, to
find meaning in the Transitionsand to share the hidden grace in
every season of life.
Whether you're learning to holdon and let go, I hope you
connected with our conversationtoday.
If you want to stay connectedand get all the behind the
(55:23):
scenes updates on hiddenchapters, come join me over on
Substack.
It's where the conversationskeep going.
Also, if you're interested inpurchasing Lindsay's book and
connecting more with her, I amsharing all the links in the
show notes.
So don't miss out.
Thanks for being here.
and for listening to anotherchapter of Hidden Chapters with
me, Genevieve.
Hi, this is Genevieve.
Thank you so much for taking amoment out of your day to
listen.
You're tuned into HiddenChapters, the podcast where we
uncover the stories you don'tusually hear, the ones behind
the highlight reels and everydaysmiles.
Today, I'm thrilled to welcomeLindsay Swoboda, an editor and
first-time author with a passionfor telling true stories and
(00:22):
inspiring fellow creatives tofind their spark.
Her debut memoir, Holding Onand Letting Go, A Life in
Motion, is a book that takes usthrough her journey as a
military spouse, exploring howshe made space for grief and
goodness, while discoveringpurpose across a myriad of
overseas duty stations.
Beyond writing, Lindsay findsjoy in nature, reading great
(00:45):
books, and building strongcommunities.
In our conversation today,we're going to talk about two
huge chapters and milestones inher life.
Life after the launch of herbook, digging into some of those
hidden chapters between herbook chapters, and her about
what's next on her journey.
So let's turn the page anddiscover the hidden chapters
behind Lindsay's story.
(01:06):
All right, so hey, Lindsay,we're finally here.
So excited to have you onHidden Chapters for season two.
I
Lindsay (01:17):
am so thrilled to be here.
I feel like How this has likeevolved with the two of us of
both of us having a friend incommon and then you jumped
willingly onto my book launchteam.
It has been just such a naturalprogression and to almost wrap
book season talking to you is areal pleasure.
(01:43):
bit of reflective work on thetheme of your book and get to be
with you in that before phase,it is great that I get to come
back and go, all right, so let'stalk about the after phase.
A whole different
Genevieve (02:04):
beast.
Absolutely.
So talking about your launch,it was huge.
You not only did your releaseof your book, but your husband
also retired after 21 years ofservice as a Marine.
So that's two massivemilestones you and your family
went through with all the highsand lows that come with that.
(02:24):
So how's it going?
Lindsay (02:28):
How is it going?
Yeah.
What was crazy is that I feellike that season, the book came
out May 6th, I believe.
I should know that.
But that weekend prior to it,we decided to have his
retirement ceremony.
So his end of active servicewasn't coming until the end of
(02:51):
September.
But all the big things werefalling in May.
And at first I thought, why arewe doing your retirement
ceremony in May if you don't getout until September?
But his commanding officer thatwas here was of course going to
PCS this summer.
And so he was like, I reallywant this person to be who
speaks at my ceremony.
(03:13):
And now after having attendedthe ceremony, which is a whole
different story on its own, likeit didn't feel real to me at
all, just walking in and sittingdown and being like oh this is
for us like how many more ofthese have I been to that
weren't us and now it's us andthere's just so many things you
can prepare for and so manythings you can't I think that is
(03:33):
military life especially butalso life in general and I would
say that was kind of booklaunch season two there were so
many things that I could preparefor that I tried to plug and
play I'm a very strategicthinker so I knew the things
that I needed to take off myplate in order to survive the
(03:57):
season well.
However, there were still justa lot of things that caught me
off guard that even though wewere trying to be fully present
and live in the moment andcelebrate all the little things
that were happening, there weresome disappointing moments where
I just felt like I couldn't bethere for my kids or for my
friends in the way that Inormally am just because your
(04:20):
presence and you're pulled in somany different directions so
there was a lot of just needingto be gentle with myself on hey
you've never done this beforeyou know you've never stepped
into retirement season togetheryou've never launched a book
before it felt very akin to likea PCS season honestly because
(04:41):
every time people would ask usabout moving they'd be like oh
you're a pro you've done this somany times and I would always
say no I'm it was a differentperson and it different stage of
life every time I experiencedthat move.
So that is kind of what thatseason encompassed was this like
hurry up and wait, like do allthese things you need to do and
(05:02):
still have 20 more that you needto do and wonder when you're
going to sleep and remain a kindhuman.
I mean, there's all of theself-care talk and I get it, but
there are some seasons whereyou're just like, oh, you know,
I can't always be the toppriority.
So this five minute thing I'mdoing has to be enough to kind
of support me through the day.
And yeah, that is how it feltlike and how we're doing now.
(05:28):
We can get into and it's hardto discuss how it felt like
because you don't want to comeacross as ungrateful for the
experience.
Right.
I am still, you know, full ofgratitude for what I
experienced.
And there are parts of the factthat I'm an author now that
don't feel real either.
Genevieve (05:47):
Yeah.
Well, I imagine it's likeexpectations.
You know, you have this in yourhead of what the expectation,
what it might look like.
But you have no idea untilyou're actually walking through
that.
So what were maybe one or twothings that you did expect or
maybe one or two things thatreally surprised you the most?
Lindsay (06:03):
Yeah, I think what I didn't expect is choices that I
needed to make in the moment.
Like we are currently still ahomeschooling family and I
didn't expect to just say theschool is done for now.
Like we walked into the springand I was like, one, we live in
Texas it's so hot there is noreason that I need to keep going
(06:24):
now because this is ourbeautiful weather I'm going to
pause everything knowing we cancatch up in the summer and it
will be fine and then notexpecting the things that my
kids were learning in thebackground while I was stepping
into this new role which is youcan survive without me for great
lengths of time you will beokay and then very sweet moments
(06:47):
like my daughter sat and helpedme organize all the book plates
as I was signing them and shemade like lots of little trips
to the the post office with meshe filmed like helped stage and
film some of the reels I wasdoing yeah that's cute I was
doing like musical theaterMonday and she was like oh this
(07:07):
would be a great move for thisand she was like choreographing
it and helping me set it up andand those were those hidden joys
that I thought like I'm gonnajust let them down during this
time frame and it wasn't aboutletting them down it was about
letting them see like mom has aspace to dream as well and I
think that's really powerful Igrew up watching my dad do lots
(07:28):
of road races he's a runner anda cyclist and as a kid I
couldn't be more proud to likestand there and hand out water
cups and like cheer you on asyou ran past me and I felt like
my kids kind of got to stand andcheer me on as I was running
Genevieve (07:44):
this race it was a family affair yeah they were
part of that with you yeah sure
Lindsay (07:48):
yes that's a very good way to put it it was a death
from me, like a family effort.
And we always call ourselves,like we call ourselves Team SWO.
And it was a real Team SWOmoment.
Now, like the griefs I couldn'tanticipate have been numerous,
like just...
um, as we finished, not justbook lunch, but Ryan getting
(08:11):
out, um, that last few months,you know, he's gone on to do
skill bridge and all thesedifferent things, but I missed
the day he was coming home inhis uniform for the last day,
like last time.
And I had wanted to get back intime, but the kids and I were
out doing something.
I just missed it.
And it doesn't, that doesn'tmean anything.
It doesn't have to meananything unless I want it to
(08:32):
mean something, but I amobviously still holding onto it
as I'm sure Because I wish I hadbeen there for that.
Like, like now I haven't seenhim wear it again.
And I'm like, oh,
Genevieve (08:44):
that was it.
I understand.
Yeah, because I do kind of missthe uniforms.
I miss having Chris get dressedin the morning and he changed
uniforms over the course of the20, the 18 years that we were
together.
He had three different uniformstyles that went through in the
army.
But yeah,
Lindsay (09:01):
I understand that.
Little things.
It's little, the little thingsthat are the big things.
Yeah, there's been a lot oflittle wonders during this
season that have been bothexhilarating and exhausting.
And then I think that's funnybecause the title of the book is
Holding On and Letting Go.
And I still think I am a personthat really thinks in two
(09:22):
lanes.
You know, there's always thisboth and happening in our life,
which is what helps meunderstand like the big things I
go through is holding thosethings kind of loosely and
knowing these can both coexistand it is okay.
that they're both here at thesame time.
Yeah, no.
Well, in talking about thatholding on and letting go, both
(09:43):
you and Ryan together faced theleaving military.
It's a shared turning point foryou both.
So was there a tough moment ormaybe a quiet realization from
navigating that together thatyou haven't really been able to
share or just kind of come to arealization from?
Yeah, I think the biggest partof this is we have done many, of
(10:06):
the courses and the supportthat's out there and all of
those things have been helpfulhowever I don't think you can
pick and choose what shakes youwhen and I wasn't prepared for
kind of him coming down off ofthis experience and kind of
(10:26):
going well now what do I want todo yeah I think and I don't
want to speak his story for himso as his being the someone
that's like been behind hiscareer and, you know, kind of
watch things unfold.
I think I felt there would be anatural next step.
And I'm realizing maybe thenatural next step for us is
(10:49):
almost questioning everything.
Not questioning the time innecessarily.
At least I don't.
I'm not questioning that.
But I kind of saying, well, youknow, I'm primed for all of
these things and maybe I don'twant to do any of them.
And making a lot of space forthat while you're also silently
(11:10):
panicking about finances andhaving young children.
And it really is.
the craziest time to kind oftransition from a lifestyle and
a job because you are midlife.
I guess some could say it's thebest time to transition because
you have this other chapterahead of you.
But when you can't define thatchapter yet, you're definitely
(11:34):
in a place of unknowing and I'mreally working to be okay with
that.
Genevieve (11:39):
That's hard.
Yeah.
And being able to talk to you,being on the other side of that,
also being a fellow retiredmilitary spouse, doesn't get any
easier after three years.
You're still kind of going inthis unknown, like, what do I
do?
You're still trying to findthat footing.
But that's great that you canat least recognize that and just
(11:59):
be okay with not knowing.
Lindsay (12:03):
Yeah, I feel like we're both kind of on our own
evolution right now andcontinuing to try to just check
in and have really good, hardconversations together, which
I'm not going to say we do allof those super well, but we're
having them.
And I think that is the point,right?
That's important.
Yeah.
Somebody was asking me like,what's the biggest thing you've
taken away in your militarymarriage?
And I was like, oh, just tryingto have the heartquaking
(12:26):
conversations that no one wantsto have together because in the
end, our world has gotten alittle bit smaller for the time
being until we figure out what'snext.
And we really have each other.
And that either means we'regoing to rely on each other or
dump on each other.
And I think we're just reallybeing like everybody is treading
(12:46):
as kindly and as carefully aswe can.
So, yeah.
Genevieve (12:51):
I had this discussion with a friend
recently about that, too.
It's like you've known thisperson, you've lived with this
person, you've done life withthis person, but you're also
relearning this person.
Like you said, you're both inthis whole new chapter and
season that there are thingsthat both me and my husband,
Chris, have talked about thatI'm like, wait a minute, I never
knew that about you.
(13:11):
So it's an interesting thing ofa relationship.
You think you've knowneverything about that person,
but you really are stilllearning about them and the
person they're becoming in thisnew chapter that they're
exploring with you.
Lindsay (13:25):
Yeah, I almost feel like he's getting permission for
the first time to kind of goback through everything.
Yeah.
And It's been interesting toobserve and watch and be there.
Genevieve (13:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So thinking about your booklaunch or leaving the military,
was there a moment that just hityou like a gut punch or a light
going off that you've keptpretty quiet up until now?
Lindsay (13:52):
Let me think about this one.
Yeah.
I feel like one of the gutpunches for me coming off of
book launch season or just incoming out of the military
really was Ryan's ending speechhe gave at his retirement
ceremony, which was he did areally wonderful job of thanking
(14:18):
our family and friends thatwere there.
And then he did end with me inparticular and just saying,
really just honoring our timetogether, whatever that looks
like next and being excited forthe adventure portion.
And I think that's part ofclosing chapters is like there
(14:44):
are a natural close to thingswhen we're younger, I feel.
And maybe that is not real forsome, but I felt like when you
graduate high school, you know,you're going to have a ceremony,
you're going to have the capand gown, you're going to do the
things.
Same with college, same withbecause I was a performer.
I've been in up to a millionshows where you're going to have
a final night together and youknow it's your last night and
(15:06):
you're going to hang up thecostume.
And there are like veryphysical things you do to finish
something.
And this time, even though wehad the ceremony, we had a book
launch party, it felt very likethere wasn't as much to hang on
to.
It just was happening.
So I felt like I've really hungon to words, which is no
(15:26):
surprise because I'm a writer.
But at the same time, I do.
I feel like I've really held onto the words, like words my
husband has shared with me, theway that the book has impacted
people.
So maybe less of a gut punchand more of like a gentle, like
encouraging stirring to likeremind yourself that all of
these small moments that youpoured into something It does
(15:51):
matter, which is it's sometimeshard to convince yourself of
that because it is hours of mylife I have spent on some of
these projects.
It's hours of our life we'vededicated to this military
atmosphere.
And yet, you know, those thingsdo have endings.
So it's how do we honor themand how do we make sure they
mattered to us?
(16:12):
And we do get to choose some ofthat.
But when others have offeredtheir words of kindnesses or
hearing something from Ryan atthat ceremony Yeah.
That has been, I've like clungto that, I guess is the best way
to say it.
likely that people took theirtime like I think I understood
(16:54):
that maybe heavier than ever toois that time is so fleeting our
attention is very hard togather together these days and
so every word or every pausesomeone has taken to offer their
own like thanks or gratitude orexperience even I've had a lot
(17:16):
of that where people areoffering their own stories to me
after hearing Yeah, I canunderstand that.
So after this whole book launchmomentum, you had to take a
sabbatical in July.
Genevieve (17:36):
Yeah.
Lindsay (17:38):
So what was a hidden struggle or a need that pushed
you to hit pause?
Yeah, I was actually reallyafraid of taking that time off.
I had, you know, my publisheris wonderful.
They did email me and they'relike, tell us, you know, what
you're going to be doing in thenext little bit.
And I was like, I'm not doinganything right now.
And kind of feeling like I had,they weren't pressuring me or
(17:59):
anything.
It just, it was my own feelingsof like, well, should I still
be doing something?
And At the very beginning ofthis process, Ryan and I tried
to be really clear.
And I know I mentioned him alot.
He is my spouse, but he's alsolike my business champion.
Yeah.
My creative champion in thebackground.
(18:20):
And he helps me bring clarityto things, which was, you know,
what will feel like enough?
I don't know if you've seen TheGreatest Showman.
I feel like everybody has.
I love The Greatest Showman.
My girls and I, of course.
Well, that song, right?
Her like, never enough.
Exactly.
I don't want to be neverenough.
Right.
it feels this way too.
(19:09):
And maybe it's military lifethat shaped this in us that
like, we're really good aboutlike getting our heads down
shoulder to shoulder, like let'skeep working.
Like that is just a real thingthat I'm drawn to as a
hardworking individual.
You know, I like pride myselfon that, except for the fact
that like creativity sometimesdoesn't run in tandem with just
(19:33):
putting my head down andcontinuing to work.
Like I felt like by the end ofjune i just had no words left
and for anyone like i justdidn't have words to write
anymore um i felt really drainedand mentally and emotionally
taxed so that's why i chose toget off every time we have pcs'd
(19:57):
i have removed my social mediaapps and i kind of decided this
summer well if the militaryisn't forcing me to reset my
life right anymore i'm going tohave to be the catalyst for that
I'm going to have to choose ifthey're not going to give me a
forced sabbatical or break awayfrom my normal life I am going
to have to force my ownsabbatical on myself before I'm
(20:21):
burnt out before I'm at a placewhere like there's no wisps of
me remaining and so that reallywas what July was all about I
really intentionally scheduledit and I had a hard time logging
out of everything because youfeel like you have this momentum
but the truth is people willfind someone else to click over
on, they will watch differentcontent.
(20:41):
That doesn't mean what youcontributed doesn't matter.
It just means the world willkeep spinning without you and
you can decide to get off thewagon if you need to jump off
the ride.
So I jumped off the ride andthat time of getting back to
normal, really, I just needed tobe able to hear myself again.
I think in a small amount ofthe research I've done from
(21:06):
reading The Anxious Generation,watching numerous things.
You know, I'm not judginganybody for those social media
and internet use.
It's just mine was at an alltime high during launch season.
Genevieve (21:18):
Yeah.
Lindsay (21:19):
And I think, you know, you knew you could do it for
that time, but it wasn't goingto be sustainable after.
And I found myself just pickingup my phone and I'd be like
going to look up something orget on a map and I'd be in the
Instagram.
I'd be like, how did I even getthere?
Yeah, it sucks you in.
(21:47):
these two things for me can'talways run next to each other.
I can be heavily involved for atime and then I have to pull
back because I want my focus tobe elsewhere.
So I went up to my parents'house.
(22:09):
They live alongside a lovelylake and forests and very quiet.
And they're both very craftypeople that have lots of
interests.
So my dad was like down in thebasement playing his guitar and
piddling around in his garden.
And my mom and I would go forwalks every morning and she
loves to sew.
So I actually picked out apattern and cut out a dress and
have you know 75% of a dressmade that I did with her which
(22:33):
it's like all these things likeI'm processing and making things
with my hands and going onwalks those things just like
clear all those kind of atrophycobwebs that we're developing
from spending too many too manymoments in the socials it really
just gave me a hard reset andit's helped me question how I
want to come back now right likethe launch has happened I I do
(22:57):
not need to come back with thesame ferocity that I had.
There's a little bit of a trustfall happening saying like, I
still want to steward this workwell, but I have to release,
like it is a book launch and arelease for a reason.
It has to kind of grow on itsown a little bit here and me
trust that instead of liketightly gripping it.
Genevieve (23:20):
Well, it's really interesting you describing it
that way because I'm getting tosee it from the other side.
Whereas Chris just launched hisbook a couple of weeks ago.
And I think I'm seeing a littlebit of that unraveling.
What do I do?
What do I need to do next?
And we had a heart to heartjust the other day.
And I was like, just be still.
I've known him for so long thathe really has a hard time being
still.
(23:40):
And there's also that militarymentality, like he's got to be
busy.
So it is interesting to seethat point of view as the
non-writer, but watching him gothrough that, he really is still
going, do I need to dosomething else?
What do I need to do?
So trying to be encouraged Ithink that will because I
Lindsay (24:00):
also know I've talked a lot in different conversations
about like, is creativitysustainable?
Yeah.
And I think it's onlysustainable for my end if I
live.
I have to live.
I have to have new experiences.
It's interesting.
I'm like writing an essay aboutthis right now, but I used to
(24:22):
get really annoyed in college.
I had one professor that waslike, Lindsay, you're such a
good student, but sometimes youhave to live.
Sometimes you're not a greatartist because you want to check
the box to get the grade.
You don't want to do the hardwork of like living your story
out so that you can step intothese characters better or
(24:42):
represent a piece in a way thatit needs for it to live beyond
yourself.
And I know that's kind ofwoo-woo, but it is true to me
that I, like I wrote 20something years of our life in
this book and I will havenothing no more life to write
about if I don't go live it.
(25:03):
So yeah, I think it's asurrender almost.
Genevieve (25:09):
Yeah.
But I think it's also great tohear you say you dabbled in
other creativity things too.
Getting away from the socialmedia to do more hands-on stuff.
I mean, writing is of its ownhand-on, but yeah, I crochet, so
I get you.
There's some therapeutic timejust to sit there and count the
stitches, but there is sometherapy and just kind Yeah, I
(25:31):
think the
Lindsay (25:33):
beauty of this now is like even talking with you and
our pre-discussion, and this hasreally helped me work through
some of these things to say,like, one of the authors I
really like, her name is NicoleGulotta.
She has a book called WildWords, and she talks about this
season of visibility, like youare in it and do what you want
to do in it.
And I think that's been hugefor me is kind of looking over
(25:56):
the course of the book launch.
I got to do everything I wantedto do, truly.
Yeah.
I pitched podcasts and hadlovely library meetups and are
doing live book clubs and all ofthese wonderful experiences
that have come from the work Idid.
But it's also, it's also liketime for new work.
(26:16):
Yeah.
So,
Genevieve (26:19):
yeah.
I get that.
Yeah.
So as we were talking about howmuch you've invested into your
book, you've poured a total ofabout six years into this
journey.
So what's a hidden emotionalstruggle from letting that
personal story go free thatmaybe you haven't shared or
talked about yet?
Lindsay (26:41):
Ooh, this is the question, isn't it?
Like this is it.
So I still struggle withanxiety.
It's popped up a lot moreduring this time of us getting
out and me wanting to like graspat control of something.
Like even though I know we'vegot it and even though I have
tools and I can recognize itwithin myself a lot easier when
(27:05):
I feel like I'm feeling out ofcontrol or over spiraling.
Right.
Yeah.
But.
But I think what I thought iswhen you write a book and you
kind of championed yourselfthrough that time period, you're
you're wanting to leave thebook changed.
Yeah.
Like, do you remember the showThe Extreme?
(27:27):
It was an extreme homemaker andthey go in and they
Genevieve (27:30):
used to love Ty Pennington.
Lindsay (27:31):
Yes.
They like people's houses andthey everything would look
different when you came in andthey pay off their mortgages and
you'd be like, my gosh, they'reset up for the dream.
And I imagine that is true.
I imagine that was a huge dreamthat came true.
Yeah.
(28:11):
There's that.
(28:33):
And I had everybody read itthat needed to read it.
That was a piece of a storythat wasn't involving me and
involved more of them.
But I think that was probablylike out of all the hidden
things I could share.
It's that, you know, there's noway to tie a bow on your your
life experiences.
There isn't this like we justrode off into the sunset
(28:56):
forever.
It is.
I'm still living.
I'm still lassoing thetroubles, you know, in the dust.
All of that is still very real.
Genevieve (29:22):
So was there a quote or authors that you used as
inspiration to kind of keep yougrounded during that time when
you were writing?
Lindsay (29:30):
Oh, yes.
I wanted to share both ofthese.
So the first one I had next tomy desk and then let me pull it
up here because I wanted to readit to you guys.
Stephanie Duncan Smith has abook out.
She's also an acquisitionseditor.
I don't know her personally.
I just love her work.
And she writes this substackcalled The Slant Letter.
I'll have to check her out.
(29:52):
I just
Genevieve (29:52):
got on Substack.
Lindsay (29:53):
Oh, welcome to the Substack.
Thank you.
Good to see you over there.
So this quote, I read it in thesame month she sent this letter
out, the same month I wassigning my contract for the book
deal.
And the quote is, it's fairlylong, so I'll try to give it to
you guys.
But it was, name what it wouldtake to be proud of yourself at
(30:14):
the end of the publishingprocess.
Be as specific as you can aboutthat so when time goes by, you
can know with confidence thatyou did everything you intended
to do.
You can't control the outcomes,but you can control your
investment.
It's an expectation settingpractice to ask, what do I want
and why?
Also level with yourself aboutwhat it will cost in your time,
(30:37):
the shape of your life, yourexpenses, your mental and
emotional space and energy.
Often I see a mismatch betweenwhat writers are willing to
invest and a reality check onwhat it will cost them and high
hopes.
So really level with yourselfabout the distance between those
two things.
Genevieve (30:57):
Wow.
Lindsay (30:58):
So good, right?
So
Speaker 01 (31:00):
good.
Lindsay (31:01):
I had that on the corner, like I wrote it down on
a four by six card.
It was blue.
Yeah.
I have since tucked it away,but it was sitting here to be
like, you can give as many hoursto this as you want, but if
you're not clear about the factthat you know, what, what really
matters most to me are projectsthat bring me purpose and feel
(31:25):
purposeful.
And then this family and thefriends that, and the community
that I'm pouring love into.
So the book can do all thesethings and can be all these
things, but it actually doesn't,you know, there is a choice on
whether it changes those thingsthat are the main priority for
me.
So that was one of the things Ijust really loved.
And I'll leave that for youguys there to think on.
(31:47):
I can send you the link.
to the post if you want to putit in the show notes but
Genevieve (31:50):
absolutely
Lindsay (31:51):
yeah she's a beautiful writer and I just feel like her
offering for writers andcreatives is so strong to really
like just level with yourselflike I needed someone to say
that to me
Genevieve (32:02):
yeah
Lindsay (32:03):
um and then also I love Anne Lamott who wrote Bird by
Bird which is like one of themost famous you know writing
books of all time but she alsohas lovely other books as well
that I enjoyed and she has beenquoted saying you know
publishing won't fix you whichis what we're kind of talking
(32:25):
about here with the fact that Istill contend with a lot of the
things in the book that I didn'tlike in the book I didn't write
it like I had resolved it umbut you're I was surprised by
the fact that it wasn't resolvedmyself yeah and um and she's
right you know like someone amentor of my just of mine
(32:45):
described it the other day thatI was like you know you get the
You climb this mountain.
You're published.
And now what?
Well, now you have to startwalking down the mountain and
the valley and up the nextmountain, whatever you decide
that
Genevieve (33:01):
to be.
All that you have learned goingup, you have to make sure you
keep learning as you're goingback down.
Lindsay (33:06):
Which was such a like harrowing realization, you know,
just like, oh, you know.
So it's interesting.
I think I've decided likecoming out of this that you, get
to pick the meaning you get todecide like was that worth it or
not to me it was worth it Ifeel like I have learned and
grown so much in this process Iaccomplished something that I
(33:29):
really meant a lot to me I gotto do it in a time that yes was
crazy because Ryan was gettingout of the military but I this
was the best time for me to dothis I think I would have felt
differently if we had gotten outand I was still trying to
release it like I think thatwould have felt like a different
energy to me so this was thetiming that it was and I was as
(33:51):
prepared for it as I could beand then you know under prepared
for all the other things andthat is just what it is right
that is just living again I feellike I say that a lot but I'm
the older I get the more Irealize I don't I don't know
much of anything like I'm stillfiguring it out
Genevieve (34:09):
right it does not matter how old we are we are
still figuring everything outyeah well something that I loved
and I wanted to ask you aboutis I know from speaking to other
authors and then my own husbandas an author, there were so
many things I know you wanted towrite about, but not everything
fit for page worth or whateverit was that needed to be cut
(34:31):
down.
And so I loved that you hadreferenced Stephen King calling
his cuts his darlings.
And so you made a darlingfolder.
So what are some untoldchapters that you either left
out or still feel reallyimportant that you wish you
could have shared?
Lindsay (34:47):
Yeah.
Yes.
Thank you for asking me thisquestion.
It might be something on my substack I write.
I have kind of a little visionfor the cutting room floor.
You know, I'm like sharing somethings that I wish
Genevieve (34:58):
every author should have one of those.
Great.
Lindsay (35:00):
Here's what's here.
You know, there were thingsthat were cut that were I will
say everything that was removedfrom the book in the editing
process had validity.
I didn't have to like battlewith my team about what stayed
and what went.
Yeah.
Because I felt like theirreasoning was fair.
And I I loved, I worked withTerry Barnes was my
developmental editor and she wasjust wonderful about not
(35:24):
necessarily needing to justifywhy something was being removed,
but like letting me mourn it.
Yeah.
And you have to be like, allright, baby, you know, this is
(35:51):
how we grow up together isletting parts of you go.
But the one story that I regretnot telling, and I think it
could have had a place in there.
I just...
I didn't write it.
And that was when we were inMorocco.
It is like my favorite group ofMarines we were with.
Not that I didn't like all theMarines across all the time
(36:13):
because I liked you all.
But I felt like we were onembassy duty.
We were first posters there.
And much of the team that wegot assembled, they were first
posters too.
And I just felt like we wereall trying to figure it out
together.
On embassy duty, it's like Likethe only time I think across
(36:34):
all branches where an enlistedperson is a detachment
commander, is a commander.
So we really got to invent theMarine Corps that we thought it
should be in that space.
And that was really exciting.
Like I asked all of them whenthey would arrive their favorite
meal and we would come togetherand do family dinners.
And Evelyn at that time, mydaughter was only two and they
(36:57):
all had little, you know, a lotof them had little siblings at
home and they would just play.
lay with her and come over toher house.
And I remember one time comingout, all of these just grown men
and women were holding hands ina circle and singing Ring Round
Rosie with her.
And I just wish I had capturedthat, right?
(37:18):
Like you're living our family'sjourney.
And I felt like I tried todescribe our family and our
community well, but I hope thatI touched on those other
military members that like Iwouldn't have experienced that
had I not been married to myhusband that made this choice.
Right.
That had even during ourretirement party that we had at
(37:41):
our home after every single oneof them that came in the door
was like, what can I do?
Put me to work.
What can I unpack?
Like I had forgotten.
I had forgotten that we are acommunity or at least I
experienced it that just caresabout how we show up for each
other and just does the workeven without being asked to just
(38:02):
lend a hand.
Genevieve (38:04):
Yeah.
Lindsay (38:05):
And so that's something that I feel like isn't
necessarily missing, but is, youknow, I wish I had shared that
because what a dear time to begrowing up together.
Genevieve (38:18):
Yeah.
I think it's hard to share thatmilitary lifestyle with
somebody who maybe not be asfamiliar with military
lifestyle.
Yeah.
relationship that you bond wellwith those that are in the
(39:01):
military so yeah it is normal tojust come walking in as if
they've been there forever andgo what do you need help with
what can I do you know there isno I think we get past the
uncomfortableness and it's justeverybody is there to help in
some way
Lindsay (39:16):
yes offer what you can and I think like you were
talking about that gut punch oneof those gut punches has been
we went to our last family daylike the mandatory family day
the Mando fun is what we call itin the Marine Corps forced
family fun and you know we usedto make fun of it and then being
the ye elder spouse at thislast one I was like but you guys
(39:40):
are this is what makes this sospecial and I know like you may
roll your eyes at you know thecorn hole and whatever the grill
and all of this but this issomething that doesn't come with
every job and it is pretty coolthat we do this
Genevieve (39:55):
yeah no Chris Chris is going to reunion next week
with some old infantry buddies.
And it's so neat to watch hisface as the text messages come
in of who's going.
And, you know, in his infantrydays, I know probably Marines
the same way.
Everybody, you knew of themfrom their last name.
And so when Chris was justsharing with me the other night,
(40:18):
he was like, oh, so-and-so iscoming and so-and-so is coming.
It took me a minute because mybrain in the infantry side, a
lot of them are their last name.
And then in the aviation side,a lot of them called them by
their first name.
So I was flipping floppinggoing, OK, did I meet this
person?
Right.
But it's just I think it wasjust it's more of the point is
the joy that I see in Chris'sface when he's like, oh, he's
(40:40):
going to be there.
He's going to be there.
And it's been 20 years sincehe's seen some of these men.
So I'm really excited for him.
And I and I know how guys are.
They'll all get together andthen forget to do the one thing
that most women are like, pleasetake the photo so you
Lindsay (40:52):
can commemorate it.
Do it at the very beginning.
Everybody just needs to textthem and be like, did you get a
Genevieve (40:57):
So that's what I told him.
I said, please don't forget thephoto.
You haven't seen these guys in20 years or so.
So let's please make sure youat least to memorize it.
Lindsay (41:06):
I love that because I feel like we I've even seen
that.
This was the first summer I sawthat with my daughter that we
have a family.
Actually, I wrote about them inthe book.
They're in the Ecuador phasewith us and they have family
near where we live.
So the past two summers we'vebeen able to connect with them.
And this was like one ofEvelyn's very first friends.
They were really little.
(41:26):
So it was hard for them toremember.
Oh, yeah.
It wasn't that awesome.
Genevieve (42:15):
So in talking about that, you're in this new season
after leaving the military.
What's been the hardest part offiguring out what to do next?
So something that you'refinding strength in now that
maybe you and Ryan are doingtogether now that you're out of
military?
Lindsay (42:33):
Yeah, my gosh, I think.
What excites me and scares meat the same time is the level of
freedom we have in reinvention.
That you're like, oh, we canreally, let's not just, I
thought we would jump intosomething right away and we were
actually driving the other dayand I was like, are you...
you know, is it normal thatlike we don't have anything
(42:56):
lined up yet?
Like, is this normal?
And he was like, well, I don'tknow really what you mean by
normal.
He was like, probably not.
Yeah.
However, he said, when have weever been normal?
Yeah.
In a really fun way.
Like we took overseasassignments kind of when other
people didn't really want to dothat.
Moving from Korea to Hawaii, wesent everything off on a boat,
(43:21):
kept one really annoyingoverhead bin of uniforms to
check in with and medicaldocuments.
Don't ask me why I'm so annoyedby having to heft that around
the world.
But we didn't have kids yet,you know, and we had our
backpacks and we did Europetogether for 30 days.
And that's
Genevieve (43:37):
amazing.
Lindsay (43:37):
That's an experience.
We literally crossed the worldlike we flew into Austria and
went all the way across and thenlanded in New York City to say
hi to my best friend and wentacross the Brooklyn Bridge.
It was like our first time backin America in three years.
So that was fun for it to belike, And then flew from New
York to Hawaii and started ourlife over again on an island.
(43:59):
And I really had to pause and,you know, being a dancer and was
like a performer for half mylife to then transition to
editing and writing.
I mean, you're right.
We have not had a normaltrajectory.
And I think there's strength inthat.
I think there is excitement forthe adventure to come in that.
As long as we continue to likemake space for feeling the feels
(44:21):
that we need to.
to close this chapter out.
And then hopefully that meanswe look back on it with fond
reflection.
Genevieve (44:29):
Chris and I didn't have, well, he didn't have
anything specifically lined upright after, but coming out of
his military career, he reallyneeded to take some time off.
And I'm so grateful that we hadthe provision to do so.
And I was ready to go back towork.
So before I had even jumped in,we had a little bit of time
(44:49):
between the next thing.
I'd like to advocate thatthat's something I think is so
important that couples shoulddo, especially after being 20
plus years in a service.
I've always use the analogy forbeing Army, this rucksack.
We packed this rucksack for somany years and we just didn't
get to have those discussionsbecause of a mission, a
(45:12):
deployment, or whatever it was.
In the end of that career, thatrucksack needed to be unpacked.
And when it got unpacked, noteverything that was in there was
great.
And it was years of resentment,years of something that just
did not get discussed.
We had moments where we had torelearn each other.
(45:46):
hear that you both are havingthat discussion and really
working on that next thingtogether versus trying to have
(46:07):
two separate lanes, figuringthis out.
Lindsay (46:10):
Yeah.
Thank you for saying that.
I feel like it's veryencouraging.
I have heard it more and morethat it was like very scary at
first to think about taking thetime off.
And yet I feel like if we justAnd the next thing we're going
to miss the opportunity to thinkabout it, like to really think
(46:32):
about what works.
of the pension and just be realwith ourselves.
(47:00):
Like how many months can wemake it without, you know,
supplemental income?
And honestly, I am CarolineIngalls over here making
multitudes of things fromscratch and learning how to cook
in a whole new way.
And we're doing a lot of freefamily fun.
And honestly, though, it's beenthere's been some freedom in
this and being like, OK, if itdoesn't happen right away, we
(47:22):
will we will be all right.
We cannot be extravagant by anymeans or do a lot of extras
however it was a real practicalstep for us to take to work
together as a team and then Ifeel like that S has meant a lot
of other things like summer ofsurprises like being surprised
(47:44):
by different moments of beinghome together all the time right
now and I went to my parentshouse and he didn't come with me
for that because he was doinghis certificate program And when
I came home, the freedom beardwas in full.
And I was like, you, I don'teven know about this.
Your face is so fuzzy.
(48:04):
And we've also called it likethe summer of surrender, which
is just like, okay, maybe it'sall right that we don't know
everything.
Oh, that's so good.
I
Genevieve (48:14):
love that you said freedom beard because that's
Chris's too.
Lindsay (48:18):
I've embraced it, but it makes him happy.
Will I see your face again?
Maybe not.
And I'm also, we Both arelaughing and he'll be okay with
me sharing this because I havemultitudes of grays as well.
But I didn't realize that theMarine Corps would not only like
take years, you know, from ourlife in some way, but also take
(48:39):
like a, the color, the color ofhis facial hair swiftly swapped
to a very handsome gray.
salt and pepper quite quickly.
Distinguished gray.
Distinguished gray that Iwasn't anticipating because I'd
never seen it.
Genevieve (48:58):
Oh man.
I love it.
It's funny though.
I think every man that can growa beard, they do and they're
like, I am free.
Lindsay (49:05):
Just look at me grow this thing.
Genevieve (49:07):
Yeah.
It's just funny.
Oh my goodness.
All right.
So I didn't mean to throw youoff, but I think
Lindsay (49:13):
that was actually pretty good.
I loved it.
No, this is good.
Genevieve (49:14):
That was so good.
Okay.
So before we go And then beforewe end this, I would love to
hear you read an excerpt fromyour book that you feel
especially close to you thatyou'd love to share.
So do you have an excerpt inmind?
I
Lindsay (49:31):
do.
I actually wasn't sure exactlywhat I'd share.
And then I kind of let it fallopen to where it fell, you know,
and was like, oh, this isexactly where we should go
today.
So this one where you'refinding me in the story, this is
called The Long Winter.
Oh, yes.
which is also a little nod toone of my favorite Laura Ingalls
(49:52):
Wilder's book, The Long Winter.
But I had landed back inAmerica after almost our 10
years overseas.
I was pregnant again, but wehad a complication with the
pregnancy that made it veryunreal if this was going to make
it to fruition or not.
So at the end of this chapter,Ryan was still back in Ecuador.
(50:14):
He had sent me back early tomake sure I could get the right
medical care.
And my best friend had flowndown to see me and we're laying
in my mother-in-law's guestbedroom together in Ohio, having
a conversation on New Year'sEve.
So this is, this is where youfind me a bit in despair.
(50:35):
So, okay.
So on New Year's Eve, back inthe guest room, Katie and I lie
in bed, staring up at thechandelier together.
We spent the evening battingballoons around the living room
with Evelyn and counting down tothe new year at early eight
o'clock.
Thank goodness four-year-oldscan't tell time.
We call it an early night.
Do you think I'll feel happyagain?
(50:55):
I whisper.
And then I cover my face withmy hands.
I tell her I'm so glad she'shere and I just don't feel like
myself.
I keep thinking I can willmyself to feel better.
Instead, I get a glimpse of theme I can recognize in wavetops
riding up and down on anever-changing tide but shrouded
in gloom.
(51:15):
I keep reaching for an end tothis pain to the to the wanting,
but maybe I have to ride itout.
Katie reaches to squeeze myhand and I let her.
I take enough deep breaths thatI finally fall asleep.
In a week, Katie is back on aplane to New York City and my
in-laws pack up our two new carsplus one of theirs to caravan
(51:37):
down to Virginia with me andEvelyn.
We'll get Ryan from the airportin five days.
The roads wind through Americanforests and fields and I hum
along to songs on the radio.
I've spent much of Decemberasking for help.
I've needed naps, extra doctorvisits and support in giving
Evelyn the love she needs as Imuddle through.
Snow falls as we drive throughthe Oh.
(52:00):
Oh.
Genevieve (52:26):
I have loved reading your book.
You have such poetry in yourwords.
What was it like to write thatpart of your excerpt there?
Lindsay (52:38):
Writing that part forward with Hunter, as you can,
I mean, Genevieve can see me,but I have tears in my eyes
right now because writing thatportion forward was a very
tenuous time for us.
And then kind of thinking aboutthat hope in the dark.
I love this quote by theauthor, Barbara Brown Taylor,
(52:59):
where she shares, um, I'velearned things in the, you know,
there things are just asvaluable.
The things that I've learned inthe darkness is what I've
learned in the light.
Yeah.
And so writing that part of thebook, I think writing through
our hardships and then findingpurpose in them and sharing
them, that is.
the beauty of storytelling.
(53:23):
That's the beauty of yourhidden chapters.
That's the beauty of us causingto connect and communicate
together.
And even though it is hard workto revisit that, even now, it
gives me hope to look back onthat person that I was, that was
still believing and hoping.
(53:46):
Well, I love it.
Genevieve (54:05):
Lindsay, thank you so much for this.
I have enjoyed our conversationand I really, I was looking
forward to getting to get thewhole beginning to end.
And so I'm excited.
And of course, you know, I'llbe here to see what this next
chapter brings for you.
Lindsay (54:23):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate theopportunity to talk through this
in a way that I haven't before.
So thank you for setting thestage so well and making it a
safe and comfortable space inwhich to show up and do so of
course
Genevieve (54:40):
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of
Hidden Chapters.
Lindsay's conversation todaywas a powerful snapshot of the
beautiful tension betweenidentity and change, passion and
duty.
Lindsay's story reads likepoetry across continents, from
Korea to Morocco to Ecuador, andI hope you'll take an
(55:00):
opportunity to pick up hermemoir Holding On and Letting
Go, A Life in Motion.
It reminds us to embracedifficulty and challenges, to
find meaning in the Transitionsand to share the hidden grace in
every season of life.
Whether you're learning to holdon and let go, I hope you
connected with our conversationtoday.
If you want to stay connectedand get all the behind the
(55:23):
scenes updates on hiddenchapters, come join me over on
Substack.
It's where the conversationskeep going.
Also, if you're interested inpurchasing Lindsay's book and
connecting more with her, I amsharing all the links in the
show notes.
So don't miss out.
Thanks for being here.
and for listening to anotherchapter of Hidden Chapters with
me, Genevieve.
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