September 12, 2025 • 55 mins
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Kicking off Season 2 🎉
In this first episode of Hidden Chapters Season 2, my husband,Chris joins me to share his journey from Army life to author, exploring the highs and lows of deployments, the challenges of reintegrating into civilian life, and the emotional impact of the Afghanistan withdrawal on veterans.
We dig into the hidden struggles that service members face: mental health challenges, identity shifts, and the search for purpose beyond the uniform. Chris opens up about the lessons he’s learned, the power of sharing personal stories, and how storytelling can build connection and understanding for both veterans and the people who love them.
This conversation kicks off Season 2 with a reminder that the stories behind the uniform matter and that every chapter, even the hardest, can offer insight, growth, and hope.
Takeaways with our conversation:
- The podcast has reached over a thousand downloads in three months.
- Chris's writing journey began as a way to preserve memories for his daughters.
- Military training can be both physically and mentally challenging.
- Deployment experiences often differ from training expectations.
- The withdrawal from Afghanistan left many veterans feeling invalidated.
- Mental health struggles are common among veterans after service.
- Reintegration into civilian life can be a difficult transition.
- Sharing personal stories can help others feel less alone.
- Perseverance is key in overcoming life's challenges.
All the links to connect with Chris:
📚 Purchase "Walking Away From the Ledge" on Amazon: https://a.co/d/aIIhZxm
🔗 FB: Chris Kruger
🗒️ Substack: https://substack.com/@theaccidentalauthor
Thank you for listening to Hidden Chapters!
If today's episode moved you, please consider
✅ Sharing this episode with someone who needs to hear it.
❤️I would love to hear from you!
📫 Join me on Substack for deeper connection or to continue the conversation on each episode and receive the weekly newsletter "The Next Chapter Notes"
💬 Leave me a voice message on: https://www.speakpipe.com/HiddenChapters
☕️ Want to support the show: https://buymeacoffee.com/hiddenchapters
Let's stay connected: 🔗
📷 Instagram: @hiddenchapterspodcast
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💌 Email me: chapters@hiddenchapterspodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Genevieve (00:00):
Hey, welcome back to Hidden Chapters.
Season two is here.
If you caught our bonuspreseason episode two weeks ago,
you know we celebrated a hugemilestone, over a thousand
downloads in just three shortmonths.
That's a thousand moments wheresomeone chose this podcast out
of three million plus showsavailable.
Listeners are tuning in fromacross the U.S.
(00:21):
and across the world, and thistells me it's no longer just my
friends and family listening.
Our reach is growing, and thatmeans more hidden stories is
being heard, more connection,and more encouragement.
So thank you for being part ofthat.
This season, we're diving intopowerful new stories from newly
published authors, and I'll alsoshare a couple of solo episodes
(00:44):
of my own hidden chapters.
And what better way to helpkick things off than with the
person who's been cheering me onfrom the very beginning.
He's been the sounding boardfor my podcast brainstorms, the
encourager when I doubtedmyself, and yes, even the one
keeping the household quietwhile I record in the closet.
He's also been on his ownjourney of launching a hidden
(01:06):
chapter in book form, so it'sonly fitting that he's here with
me now to start season two.
My husband Chris and I havebeen married for 19 years, and
I've had the privilege ofwalking beside him for 18 of his
22 and a half years in theArmy.
We faced deployments together,highs and lows, and we're still
here figuring out what's next.
(01:27):
Chris started out in the Armyas an infantryman and then
became a Black Hawk maintenancetest pilot.
Along the way, he went throughsome of the military's toughest
trainings and multipledeployment overseas.
After retiring, he worked onhis bachelor's degree at Liberty
University, and in that sameseason, he started writing down
(01:48):
his Army experiences.
His original goal was simply topass those stories on to our
daughters when they were ofappropriate ages.
But what began as a way topreserve memories quickly became
something more.
It became almost therapeutic,helping him process the weight
of service and mental healthstruggles.
With a little encouragementfrom me and a gentle
(02:10):
recommendation not to let itjust sit as a forgotten document
on a computer, with the help offriends' connections to an
editor and publisher, thisprivate writing journey turned
into a three-year process.
And now, his first publishedbook.
With his book completed andlaunched, Chris is here to share
some of the Army experiencethat he shared in his book, but
(02:32):
really get real and honest aboutthe dissatisfaction and and
some other honest topics worthsharing because there are things
not a lot of people talk about,which makes it perfect for
Hidden Chapters podcast.
So Chris, thank you for alwaysbeing my support and for being
my first guest in season two.
Chris (02:54):
Well, thank you for having me on.
I'm looking forward to it.
Genevieve (02:57):
Okay, so let's go back to the beginning.
You said that you were just anaverage guy in school.
You couldn't even do pull-ups.
So what drew you to join theArmy in the first place?
And how did that decisionchange your life from feeling
below average to achievingthings well above what you
thought possible?
Chris (03:16):
Yeah, so one thing that was in the book that got cut
initially and did end up in theblog, but now I kind of wish it
would have stayed in the book,was that all during middle
school, even high school, Ireally couldn't do pull-ups when
those presidential fitnesstests came around.
You know, I had to do the hangfor as long as you can in a
(03:36):
chin-up position, and it usuallywasn't very long.
I don't know, 10, maybe 15seconds if I was lucky.
And I wasn't very active insports in high school or
anything like that either.
just go into the games and allthat.
So when, you know, guidancecounselor mentioned the
military, I was like, no, like Ican't even do these basic
things.
And, you know, maybe I could do10 pushups or something like
(03:58):
that, but I just wasn'tphysically in the position that
I thought I should be in to beable to go into the military.
After high school and working alittle bit and hitting the gym,
full body, body weight and someweight workouts, you know, I
thought, okay, well, you know,I'm not as weak as I thought I
was and I could actually dopull-ups.
and do them pretty well becauseI was so lightweight.
(04:18):
So after that point...
I was just kind of like okaywell I can I can do some
physically demanding things andthen I bumped into the same army
recruiter three different timesthree different locations in
Spokane and I had a differentjob every single time so I just
kind of took it as God's sign asthis is where I was supposed to
(04:41):
go and instead of fighting itor making up excuses I just went
ahead with it and signed up andI didn't know I learned going
through that process thatthere's so many ways to be a
soldier.
And all I knew was infantry andtanks.
And even though I saw thevideos for the other options, I
was like, no, I want to goinfantry with airborne ranger in
(05:02):
my contract.
You know, just going to go allin, just challenge myself, I
guess, so I could be thestrongest, physically fit,
combative, all that type ofstuff, just going into it
because I thought that's whatthe Army was.
So that's what I went for whenI joined in.
Genevieve (05:21):
Yeah.
I just want to share that.
I thought it was kind of funnywhen you told me that first
story of how you dodged therecruiter at three different
places.
You want to share that justreal quick.
I think that's just a funnystory to share.
Chris (05:33):
Yeah.
And that's, uh, it's in thebook too, but, uh, since the
book is out, I can, I feel likeI can start giving away a little
bit more details.
But, uh, the first time, youknow, I was just kind of
perusing the mall and he, youknow, he's like, he's like, Hey,
thought about the army.
And I was like, Nope, not inthe slightest.
He's like, well, I got to fill,I got to get so many of these
(05:54):
cards filled out to meet myquota for the day.
Would you mind filling one out?
I was like, sure.
So I filled one out in the likemost garbage chicken scratch.
It was probably the only thinglegible was the phone number
because the numbers lookedright.
And, uh, and he called and Ipretended I wasn't home, even
though, you know, I was, wasn'tdoing anything anyway.
And just, you know, that wasthat, uh, the second time I was
(06:15):
working with diamond parkingdowntown, charging people to
park at concerts or whatever.
And, uh, he pulled in theparking lot and I started
walking up to him.
I was like, that's five or $10for parking, whatever it was at
the time.
And he says, oh, I'm notstaying here.
Have you thought about joiningthe army?
And I was like this mother, youknow, just like, no.
And he's like, well, here's acard if you change your mind.
(06:37):
And I think I filled out a cardthen too, but I just put the
wrong number down.
Didn't even care.
And then, you know, it took mea second to recognize him.
Then the final time I waswalking to a buddy's house
because I think at that point Ididn't even have a job had you
know my little initial you knowtrials with community college
(07:00):
and wasn't doing anything Ibumped into him and I was like
fine so I filled it out legiblyaddress phone number name all
that stuff and it was like talkto you soon so it was after that
that I was like I guess this iswhere I'm going this is what
I'm doing because I didn't haveanything else going on and I
didn't know what to do so I justkind of was like I'm all right,
(07:21):
God, I guess this is what youwant me to do.
Let's go on this journey.
And, uh, yeah, it's, it's, uh,it's had its ups and downs ever
since.
But I will say, since I'm herewith you, if I wouldn't have
joined the army, I wouldn't havemet you and we wouldn't have
our two beautiful daughtersgoing through this life
together.
And for all the ins, outs, ups,downs, goods, bads, uh, all
(07:46):
that rollercoaster of it all, Iwould not trade it for what not
signing up.
for the army would havebrought.
Genevieve (07:53):
Yeah.
Well, God had other plans andwe knew because I said I would
never marry military.
Growing up as a military bratand then seeing the hardship of
being military and moving, I wasthat military kid that was the
new kid after Christmas.
So I remember growing up sayingI'm never going to marry
military.
God had other plans on that onetoo.
Chris (08:13):
And with that then too, for people who know about Fort
Bragg, North Carolina or Vietnamas it's a affectionately
referred to sometimes.
I never imagined I was going tomeet a woman worthwhile there
as well.
So, you know, just, yeah, Godhad other plans and all around.
So yes, I found one of probablya handful of wonderful women in
(08:38):
the Fayetteville, NorthCarolina area.
Genevieve (08:42):
And here we are today, able to share our story.
So looking back, you weren't inspecial forces, but you still
pushed yourself to excel in thearmy.
So share a little bit of thatmoment from your early careers
that really made you feel likeyou were part of something
bigger, even if it wasn't anelite path.
Chris (09:01):
Well, so I just wasn't going to quit anything that was
brought my way.
Um, I, I don't remember makinga mental determination of that,
but you know, there were timesin basic training where we had a
guy go AWOL and you're like,Ooh, that sounds pretty good.
Cause this sucks right now.
And you know, I just like, no,I'm obviously not not going to
(09:21):
do that.
I didn't, you know, I was tooscared to and didn't know what I
was going to do.
I was thousands of miles awayfrom home.
The only home I knew, uh, causeit was in, uh, Fort Lenning,
Georgia.
So, you know, I wasn't going tomake my way back to Spokane and
I had nothing else to doanyway.
So I wasn't going to do that.
And then it was airborneschool.
And then the rangerindoctrination program or rip
(09:42):
holdover right after that, um,which I'll leave those details
in the book, but I did fail rip.
So I never made it into rangerbattalion.
I do remember after that point,I was like, cool, when I get to
my first unit, I'm going to dowhatever I have to do to go to
ranger school.
It's kind of like a redemptionshot for not making it a ranger
(10:02):
battalion.
And like I said, it just becamethis thing where I wasn't going
to quit.
No matter what went on in mymind, how much pain I was in
physically, emotionally,mentally, I was just gonna, you
know, my body would have to shutdown on itself before I would
mentally quit on anything I didand that really showed through
(10:25):
at the unit with the sergeantsthat were there one of the first
things we did after we gotthere was this 10 mile run just
before New Year's of 2001 andsomewhere near the end of it I
was just like I didn't know howmuch further we had to go
because I didn't know the areaand I didn't know we were right
near the end and I was like okayI'm gonna start slowing back
and one of the NCOs comesrunning up and he's you know
(10:47):
beside me and he's like he'slike don't you quit now we're
almost home and I was like okayand And that was just enough
motivation that I needed to getthere.
And me and three of the otherguys that I got there at the
same time with, that's a Foxcompany, 51st infantry, long
range surveillance company, the,uh, premier Lurse unit in the
army.
Uh, some echo company guysmight have, might have something
(11:09):
to say about that, but
Speaker 02 (11:10):
whatever.
Chris (11:11):
Um, um, yeah, me and these, uh, three other guys
finished first.
And so kind of all eyes were onus as, you know, top of the top
of the rung of the new guysthat came.
So that kind of helped me aswell to just be like, whatever I
do, I'm just not going to quit.
And that has that mentalityalone, not necessarily having a
(11:34):
full out game plan or anythinghas led me to do some great
things with that too.
Then it was expert infantrymanbadge.
And then after that, emergencymedical technician training,
which I was a nationallyregistered emergency medical
technician or EMT Bravo basic.
And after that, to pre-rangerschool, ranger school,
amphibious reconnaissanceschool, all these other
(11:56):
trainings that while maybe notat the fullest elite level, your
average infantry guy down atthe 82nd didn't get these
opportunities like I did.
So, you know, like I said, itwas just basically like, okay, I
was brought to this and I'mgoing to see it through and I'm
not going to quit.
And, you know, success camefrom, from not quitting and all
(12:20):
these gifts of all theseschools, I guess the best way to
say it would be that they werea gift, you know, came as a
result of me just quitting.
Genevieve (12:30):
Yeah.
Well, I'll always say thatyou're cooler than I am because
you've done some pretty neatthings in your Army career.
So I remember you mentioned allthose trainings from Fest, rope
repelling, air assault,multi-ship operations, and night
ops too.
So what did that training feellike for you?
And how did that build yoursense of purpose and readiness
(12:52):
for combat?
Chris (12:54):
You know, the training, like I said, I just, I went
through it and it was just whatwe had to do.
And, you know, we learned fromit, tried to make it work.
ourselves better going throughit all so you know you do
everything in daytime conditionsjust as rehearsals with maybe
running it with your buddies noweapons and then you get to the
range and you're just kind of aweapon and you go through it and
(13:17):
then it's with kit and thenit's at night with night vision
goggles and all that kind ofstuff and it was the same for
aviation the first practices aredaytime and you progressively
get more challenging andchallenging you add in you know
nighttime and then more aircraftand all that stuff.
So going through it, it wassuch a progression that it
(13:39):
wasn't...
It was always tough, of course,but it wasn't like...
this is too much.
And it was always the way itprogressed.
It was always fun and justchallenging yourself and getting
better and all those conditionsthroughout that.
So I guess because it was whatI was doing, I never looked at
it and was like, this is cool.
I think in halo school, youhave kind of a moment to go, Oh,
(14:01):
I'm getting it.
This is cool.
Like, and then, and it is.
And that's why I think for me,skydiving was the most fun thing
I've ever done in and out ofthe army.
Um, because it is cool.
Uh, everything else to me palesin comparison.
riding motorcycles, flyinghelicopters, all that stuff to
me just pales in comparison tojust throwing yourself out of an
(14:22):
aircraft at 15,000 feet,jumping with some buddies,
linking up, you know, screwingaround in the air and then
throwing that parachute out andcome in, have a nice landing and
then go in and do it again.
So that was the only one whereI can say like this was really
cool training and everythingelse was just a progression
where it got more challenging.
But again, you know, I was justgoing to continue to not quit
(14:44):
and try and be the best that Icould while we were going
through it.
Genevieve (14:48):
Yeah.
So you joined the Army before9-11, had done all of these
trainings for preparation forany world war that would happen.
And then 9-11 hit and youdeployed.
So your first deployment was toIraq for a year.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout how you had prepared?
(15:08):
But then once you got there,all of those trainings and those
things that you had beenpracticing and training for
didn't really end up being thething that you would do when you
were deployed?
Chris (15:19):
Yeah.
So with long rangesurveillance, the mission is for
six guys to go ahead of theflaw, the forward line of
troops, uh, provide Intel for anupcoming hit or, or whatever,
another unit to come in and besuccessful at their mission,
engaging whatever target youwent in and looked at.
(15:40):
Um, And that was what we wouldtrain on in training it, whether
it was at JRTC in Fort Polk,Louisiana or any, anywhere else
that we train, that's what wewould train on.
And we did a couple of missionslike that early on after the
invasion.
But one of the first things wedid after rolling into Iraq was
(16:03):
pull the airfield security, Isay with finger quotes, because
we were just kind of securingthis little landing strip in the
middle of nowhere in the desertfor UAVs or UAS systems
unmanned aerial vehicles andsystems to be able to launch and
take off so we were just outthere plopped down as a unit
(16:24):
just wasting away for like twoweeks and then we moved on to to
crit and then to Missoula andwe finally got some actual
missions observing kind ofpatterns of life and things like
that with traffic and therewere supposed to be some other
things but then it ended upbeing patrolling which is an
infantry task of course but avehicle mounted patrolling in
(16:44):
Missoula.
And early on there, therewasn't a whole lot of
resistance.
There wasn't any firefights,anything about it.
And we just rolled, you know,rotated teams that went out and
however many vehicles and allthat stuff.
We had some other kind of meetand greets of North Dahuk and
Zako areas in Northern Iraq.
(17:05):
And with the Peshmerga thatwere in the area, they were
Kurdish fighters that occupiedthe North there.
And then, you know, there wassome training for terrorist
training camp, suspectedterrorist training camp
interdictions and things likethat that never went anywhere.
But here we are in Iraq notdoing our mission because...
or not doing our primarymission because there wasn't
(17:27):
really anything to go watch forobjective-wise for other units
to come and engage them.
With these vehicle-mountedpatrols, they were just kind of
like just driving around thecity, but we didn't have
up-armored Humvees, so we werejust guys rolling around the
back of an open Humvee justrolling targets at that point.
So it was a littlediscouraging, but, you know,
(17:48):
being young, dumb, didn't care.
I'm ready for anybody to shootat me so we can shoot back or
whatever, which, you know,didn't happen really on the
regular if at all for most of usand then the last thing we did
a little over midway through soAugust if I remember right of
2003 we went up to Zaco andstayed in a compound up there to
(18:12):
train up Iraqi border patroland I didn't mind it because
then we had like vehicles andgear and all this other stuff to
kind of train them up so it wascool because of where we're at
getting out of the cities downthere, getting up into the kind
of more mountainous areas, alittle cooler up there.
But, um, the deploymentscontinued to go like that where
(18:34):
it was just a lot of vehiclemounted patrolling through the
deserts and there wasn't a wholelot of team level missions.
Uh, and I, and I cover that inmore detail in the book.
But then when we switched overto aviation, it became the same
thing.
We trained up for multi-shipaerosols on objectives and that
was our primary focus oftraining.
But, uh, And what ended upbeing was, you know, what they
(18:58):
call milk runs, you know, justflying people from here to there
so that they could make theirmeetings on time.
And, you know, without havingto do VTC, it ended up just
feeling like a ginormous wasteof time.
on all my aviation deploymentsbecause everything we trained
for, we weren't allowed to do.
(19:18):
And it was just transportingpeople from point A to point B.
And even on my final deploymentin 2019, 2020 to Kandahar, we
were supporting some specialforces missions, you know,
interdicting targets and doingthese other things.
And then all of a sudden,because we weren't flying the
right colored Blackhawks, youknow, we weren't allowed to do
(19:42):
these missions anymore becausecommand and didn't want to
assume the risk.
And that seemed to be the finalstraw on all these things.
We were trained in Halo ops,but nobody wanted to do the Halo
mission in Iraq because theydidn't want to assume the risk.
And nobody wanted to let us dowhatever in Afghanistan because
(20:02):
we were flying green Blackhawks,not black Blackhawks, and they
didn't want to assume the risk.
So that was definitely an issueof contention and
disappointment on all thesedeployments that even though we
were just as well trained asanybody else, we took the
training seriously.
We did the training seriously.
Took the time to refine it whenwe had that time to.
(20:24):
We weren't in SOCOM.
We weren't in the specialcommunity.
So we weren't allowed to do thethings that we trained for.
So it ended up feeling like ourtraining was invalidated and it
was a waste.
Genevieve (20:38):
So with all of the training that you've done, it's
obviously weighed on you sixdeployments.
were there specific moments inall of these deployments where
you just realized a chain ofcommand was holding you back
because a risk aversion and howdid all of us start to culminate
to where those letdownsaffected your mindset daily
Chris (21:00):
yeah so and and to clarify with the chain of
command letting it wasn'tletting me down it was letting
us all down And a lot of itbecame just, what's the point?
You know, if, if we're just, ifI'm flying a Lieutenant
(21:21):
Colonel, Colonel General,whoever around, so he can go do
a meeting and, To me, that wasfraud, waste and abuse because
they could have just as easydone that meeting as a BTC and
they didn't need us.
And that was resources thatcould have been allocated other
ways for more serious missions.
(21:41):
And at the same time, now we'reflying around daytime couple
aircraft and we're just a targetflying around same thing with
infantry we're just rollingaround being a target for
something that possibly didn'tneed to happen i the challenge
was i can't change it myself andif i speak up and say something
(22:03):
it's just going to fall on deafears and it's not going to
matter so that that was that wasthe struggle that it just
became like what's the point ofus even being here if this is
all it's going to be and we'renot engaging the enemy we're not
you know doing the mission thatwe signed up for in the army
(22:25):
we're just flying men, weaponsand equipment.
And that could be women, too.
But that's what we say.
MWE, men, weapons and equipmentfrom point A to point B.
Like, what's what's the point,you know, aside from getting
someone or something to where itneeds to be?
Genevieve (22:41):
So you spent several years deploying.
And then after all of thosedeployments in your 22 and a
half year career, the withdrawalfrom Afghanistan seemed like
the ultimate invalidation foryou.
So after 20 years of sacrifice,losing limbs, life, a president
pulls out, leaving helicopters,Humvees, MRAPs, weapons,
(23:02):
everything behind.
So how did that moment hit you,making your entire career feel
like a waste?
Chris (23:11):
So just the way they went about pulling everybody out
while we were there in 2020,there was a planned withdrawal
and it was ongoing.
And we saw Kandahar was smallin comparison to what, uh, all
the people who had been deployedthere prior had said it was
like, you know, just busy allthe time and buffling.
(23:33):
And there wasn't, uh, you know,very many units there.
So the, the withdrawal was slowcalculated and going and then a
year after we get home fouryears ago roughly now they
decide to just abandon italtogether no withdrawal just
(23:53):
pull everybody out right nowlet's go leaving all that
equipment that you mentioned andso to me it was just such a
punch in the gut and not onlythat just 13 more lost lives on
top of everything else rightthen and there with an
administration that didn't carecare they didn't hold anybody
accountable they just did it andwere like trying to celebrate
(24:18):
that we were out of afghanistanafter 20 years and i'm all for
that but why you know without asolid plan now The Taliban is
more emboldened.
And not only that, they're moreemboldened with greater
equipment than they would haveever had.
(24:38):
So in all honesty, from whatyou can see from the outside, is
that Afghanistan is in a worseoff position than if we never
even would have went thereafterward.
If you see a movie, 13 Strong,about special forces that goes
in there right after 9-11 and isbombing all these places in
(24:59):
northern Afghanistan andretaliatory attacks right I
don't know the whole details ofit just what that movie showed
but you know things werehappening so then we invade
occupy and then we just pull outand leave and now they have all
this gear and they're betterequipped to me it just it did it
invalidated all the trainingall the loss of life all the
(25:21):
loss of limbs all those peoplewho have PTSD or other traumatic
issues that they're goingthrough afterward It made all of
it just useless and not worththe effort it was to spend all
that time there.
And, you know, the only thingI'm not mentioning is the money
(25:43):
because it all costs money, butit costs more than that.
It costed lives.
And so to just, again, to justabandon it, just straight up
invalidated every bit of losswe've experienced over 20 years.
And to me, it's really just aslap in the face to all the
family members who lost aservice member during that time
(26:04):
as well it just there I don'tthink there's any other way to
see it regardless of of how youview view it in that time just
and And then for me, not onlythat, it invalidated all my
service because, you know, Ihave 11 combat stripes.
That's 66 months I spent in theMiddle East.
(26:26):
70 months of deployed timetotal in my military career and
all of it was for nothing.
That's the only way I see it isall of it was for nothing
because we were just going towalk away and abandon and leave
them emboldened, empowered andall that stuff because now the
Taliban saw that all they hadThanks for playing, Loser.
Genevieve (27:04):
Yeah, that raw invalidation that ties directly
into the mental battles that youfaced coming back.
And so that's essentially whereyour book explores a lot of
that.
And you talk about the mentalstruggles, including the
suicidal thoughts, which yourbook Walking Away from the Ledge
dives more into.
And I know from my perspective,I saw a lot of that frustration
(27:25):
and anger on the other side.
So share those invalidationsfrom your career into those
battles and what it took tostart pulling yourself back.
Chris (27:33):
It was, you know, yeah for going to the suicidal
thoughts or ideation it was justthat nothing i did matter
nothing i did here at homenothing i did there at work
nothing i did on a deploymentanywhere nothing seemed to
matter didn't matter if i was agood leader a good maintenance
test pilot a good maintenanceprofessional um pilot anything
(27:57):
that just none of it matteredand I just wanted to end it all.
And then the biggest thing thatstopped me was fear of failure
and that I would live through itand be a bigger burden to my
family than any amount of mydrinking or personal struggles
(28:22):
with anything was going to be,that I'd be a bigger burden in
the long run.
So really the mental struggleswas at that point that I wanted
to be better for my family andyou know I didn't come to that
conclusion snap my fingers andeverything was magically better
you know it's been and that wasfrom about August of 21 to now
(28:48):
it's been a long road and youknow that and the thing is I
have to continue on the road tocontinue to overcome and just
remember that you know I'm notthere now my service wasn't
invalidated by that regardlessof how I feel it wasn't
invalidated but with writing thebook you know putting my
(29:10):
thoughts on paper being able toprocess it better and share that
with people it has helped me tosee that I have impacted lives.
You know, that I have...
impacted people for the better,that they still look at me
fondly, that my family stillloves me and wants me around.
(29:32):
But writing it all out hadhelped me to be able to say,
like, here's my frustration, getit out there, the emotions out
of me.
And now it's encouraging otherpeople to do the same thing to
where they were just going topush on past it as well.
Genevieve (29:48):
Yeah.
And I think that's somethingyou and I have spoken about
several times is they don't knowthe talked about the
reintegration, that people seethe happy homecomings, but what
they don't see is the dailystruggle because now you're
having to reintegrate withfamily and you're having to
reintegrate with society.
And I know that a lot of thosethings you felt like you took
(30:11):
all those months away fromfamily and coming home for what?
Chris (30:16):
Well, and the homecoming on the other side is that we're
all happy to come home and whilewe're on our way home, you
know, we're thinking about thewill want to see the places we
want to go the foods we want toeat and all that stuff and and I
think it's so service memberfocused that though it's hard to
(30:38):
take that time and rememberthat you know while while you
were home, and I know you weretaken care of monetarily, you
weren't at any type of fear ofloss for the house or food on
the table, there was still thisunderlying thing that family
members have to go through aswell to shut off their fear in
(31:00):
themselves so that they can pushon through without just
spending every moment in tormentthat they're gonna get that
message or the knock on the doorwith a flag and a chaplain.
And I think, you know, for thepeople deployed, we signed up to
up to and including our lives.
Right.
(31:20):
So sometimes I think thatbecomes the expectation that
something's going to happen.
I'm not going to make it home,so I don't have to worry about
it.
And then I make it home andit's hard to go from, okay, I
may die here.
I'm most likely going to diehere.
So I don't have to worry somuch about what's on the back
end of that to, oh, I'm homenow.
(31:42):
I just went from nine, 12, 15months of having to kind of shut
off emotionally or be concernedabout loss of life, limer,
hindsight to now I'm home andI'm safer, but it doesn't, your
brain doesn't automaticallyswitch back into safe mode.
There's no, there's, there's noswitch there to go.
(32:03):
I'm in danger.
I'm in danger.
I'm in danger, but I shut thatoff so I can focus and get my
job done, uh, to I'm safe.
Now your brain stays wired inthat danger mode.
And for some people, I thinkit's forever if they don't ever
go and get that help.
So it's definitely a challengeto, you know, do that 180.
(32:24):
And that's part of the otherprocess of...
Of coming back home and tryingto reintegrate and take those
steps because we all just thinkit's going to be natural.
And it's just it's not anatural process to go from what
you experienced duringdeployment to coming back home.
(32:47):
You know, we all just we alljust think it's going to be
easy.
Hey, I'm back home and I'mnormal.
Everything's normal.
Everything's good.
But we're not.
It changed us mostlypermanently.
but at least if not permanentlyfor a good amount of time and
if we don't take any steps to gothrough that process whatever
it may be counseling therapyjournaling listening to
(33:12):
encouraging podcasts whateverwe're going to stay stuck in
that mode too yeah which isanother thing that I just kind
of came to as well with writingthe book I was like like you
said having something to handthe girls yeah so they knew what
I went through or what I didfor 22 two years, but also to
once I got into it and realizedthe emotion poured out of it and
(33:34):
how it felt to kind of release,release those emotions, release
those thoughts, put them backin and leave them where they're
supposed to be.
It helped a lot.
Genevieve (33:47):
Yeah.
And I've heard it several timeswhere men have either by army
or just by training, learn tocompartmentalize so they can put
work in a workbox, family in afamily box put both of those up,
neither touch, but unpackingthose is tough because you've
pushed it down all those years.
Chris (34:07):
Well, I think too, since you mentioned that, this just
came to mind,compartmentalization, it's just
not, I think too, and not adoctor, but maybe there's
something more for soldiers ormilitary members specifically
where it's just not evencompartmentalized in the same
drawer.
We put it all in a differentdrawer And then we don't open
(34:29):
that drawer back up.
Yeah.
I mean, that might besomething.
I'm sure there's an expert outthere that could, you know,
confirm or deny that for me.
But I mean, maybe it's just thefamily, the concerns, the
bills, mowing the grass, allthat stuff.
It just it's not evencompartmentalized anymore.
It's moved to another drawerand it's moved there for so
long.
It collects dust.
(34:50):
And then we just don't likecare about it anymore or care
about it to include family.
Unfortunately, like we did.
those times before so that'sand that's another reason why
you know we expect to come homeand just be like okay cool i'm
gonna open this drawer back upor i'm gonna open this box back
up but it just doesn't open thesame and we gotta navigate that
(35:13):
whole thing
Genevieve (35:14):
yeah so i know that this is a common veteran
struggle that we hear a lot thishidden chapters it goes way
deeper so i know there's a partin your book where you felt
could capture the heart of whatyou've been through.
Chris (35:30):
So yeah, this is an excerpt from my book.
And these were my thoughts whenwe were coming back from
Pacific Pathways, which wasn't acombat deployment, but it was
still pretty crappy to say theleast.
But when we get to this pointin the book, I kind of was a
little bit on a tirade of somethings.
And then I kind of steppedoutside of myself to think of
(35:51):
what someone else might bethinking if they thought I was
whiny.
So the excerpt goes, you may bethinking, Kristen, that doesn't
sound so bad.
You're in the military.
What do you want?
The four seasons?
Well, yes and no.
All I ever wanted was tobelieve in the delusion that
someone in the chain of commandbeyond the company commander
cared about us.
Mission first?
Sure.
(36:12):
No doubt.
But to what extent?
Another factor at this point inmy 18 years is that I have
already deployed to the MiddleEast for longer than 70% of the
people around me have.
What's worse, I've alreadydeployed twice as many times and
had twice as many length ofdeployed time as those who have
been in the same amount of timeand are also in charge of me.
(36:35):
You know how infuriating it isto have 18 years of military
experience, 8 years of aviationexperience, and 4 years of MTP
experience, and then have allyour suggestions,
recommendations, and experiencestraight up dismissed by some F
and LT that has been in for 3years?
It's beyond infuriating.
To take a training or livescenario, lay out every possible
(36:57):
course of action, recommend thebest one to take and then every
bit of advice based on years ofexperience is disregarded
because some effer has a collegedegree in criminal justice is
just criminal in and of itselfif some of this sounds like
entitled whininess then I'llconcede that some of it is but I
think I have well and trulyearned the right to it at this
(37:18):
point And it always reminded meof that Joe Pesci line from my
cousin Vinny, when he approachesthe judge and says, you know,
just a well thought out argumentof why some expert on tire
rubber shouldn't be allowed togive his testimony on the
witness stand.
And the judge says, you know,that was well thought out,
(37:40):
articulated, all that stuff.
And Joe Pesci looks up andsays, thank you.
And he goes, overruled, youknow, and that's, you can only,
you know, he handled it one timein the movie and, you know, he
mutters some stuff almost homealone styles.
He's walking away from thejudge and all that stuff.
And that's how now, now takethat one incident that was funny
(38:01):
from my cousin Vinny and justcompound that near daily, like
how long could you sit here andendure being told, you know,
hey, that's a good idea.
Go after yourself.
Speaker 02 (38:15):
Yeah.
Chris (38:16):
Essentially.
And until you're just tired ofit and you're like, fine, you
know, add that compound metalinto everything else that I was
experiencing.
And this was three years beforethe suicide ideation.
So there was three more yearsof stuff on top of it.
Genevieve (38:30):
Yeah.
Chris (38:30):
Yeah.
Genevieve (38:31):
Yes.
Is it more freeing saying itout loud?
Chris (38:34):
Like, like I just said in there, you know, when you read
it in the book, you're be like,well, he's whiny.
But here's the thing.
We live near Redstone Arsenal,right?
And I go on post regularly towork out or to the commissary or
anywhere else, and you see thefront row parking spots.
They all say, G.O., GeneralOfficer, and then somebody else,
(38:55):
or Command Sergeant Major andall this stuff, right?
So what may sound like entitledwhininess, and I'm using
whininess in place of a wordthat starts with a B, but Yeah.
All I ever wanted...
or hoped for was what would, inmy eyes, kind of naturally be
(39:18):
due my rank.
I didn't want specialtreatment, special privilege,
you know, they say, oh, I willnot use my rank for special
privilege treatment, blah, blah,blah, right?
And I didn't want specialtreatment.
I just wanted the respect thatcame with the rank that I had
without having to fight for it.
And even as a senior chiefwarden of three maintenance test
(39:43):
pilot in the army I didn'texpect that everything I said
would go but I expected that ifI gave something based off of my
experience it didn't matter youknow most most company
commanders I had would take itinto respect and even even fight
for it instead of fight againstit but it was it was in the
(40:04):
midst of all those things wherethere was somebody outside that
influence it was like basicallyno it's my way that it was just
the infuriating portion.
But to answer your question,yeah, it's a little more freeing
reading it out loud, but it'seven more freeing that I'm away
from it and I don't have toworry about it anymore.
But if I go and get a job inthe civilian side, I would have
(40:27):
a little bit more freedom to be,hey, Bob, you know, maybe it
should be this or that.
And we have a discussion aboutit rather than like, no, you
just started working here.
You don't know what you're
Genevieve (40:38):
talking about.
Yeah.
Well, I also think since youhave retired, And you've had
this chance to have the timeoff.
It has allowed some of thisanger that you came out of
service with, all this feelingsand emotions that you had to
kind of settle.
So I think that's also helpedto settle.
(40:58):
articulate more now than youprobably did three years ago.
Your book is going to beespecially important now because
there are those veterans thatare still struggling to explain
what they've been through.
And it's hard for a lot of thefamily members like myself.
I don't pretend to knoweverything that you've been
through and I don't have thewords for you a lot of times.
(41:20):
And so speaking to anotherveteran is helpful.
So how do you hope that sharingthis pulls other veterans out
of silence?
and helps them feel likethey're less alone in their
invalidation.
I
Chris (41:34):
think a lot of other veterans are just they want to
do almost like the deploymentthing.
I've been deployed, now I'mhome.
Speaker 02 (41:44):
Yeah.
Chris (41:45):
And I can be home.
And it just, like we talkedabout, you can't flip that
switch.
And I think a lot of veteranswant to get out of the military,
whatever branch, and just putit behind them like it was just
another job, like they were justspent 5, 10, 15, 20 years at
McDonald's flipping burgers, andnow they're just moving into
(42:06):
the next chapter.
Yeah.
But regular jobs out theredon't require you to put on a
uniform.
They don't require you to leadat the level that we were
leading at.
They don't require you toadhere to Uniform Code of
Military Justice, you know, andstrict regulations and rules and
(42:27):
all that stuff.
So I would say in myexperience, again, not a doctor,
borderline impossible to justget out of the military and even
walk into a new job.
And maybe it was something likemost of most of us do get out
and go do the civilian versionof the job that we were doing
(42:49):
and just move on like nothinghappened.
So that that may be all true.
but to be able to just simplywalk away hang it up and be like
it was just a regular day atwork and nothing happened yeah I
don't think that's possible todo so one a lot of people have
been messaging me already afterreading even just a portion of
(43:10):
the books and you know it'sencouraging them to speak up
about the challenges thatthey're going through or their
service or whatever and that'sgreat one thing I encourage
everybody to do if they're ableto like in the position we were
able to be in is you know takethat time off breathe a little
bit don't just jump right intothat next job you know plan it
just give yourself a timewhatever that time may be and I
(43:35):
would recommend it be longerthan a month you know give some
time back to your family beforeyou just walk right into that
next job if you don't have afamily because something
happened during your servicethen okay but you know still try
and give a little time if youcan back to those people that
stood by you the whole timedon't just walk into something
else and expect them or in oursituation see if the other one
(43:58):
wants to do something like goback to work and give that a try
and that was something wediscussed at length and you know
you wanted to go back to workand and so we walked we walked
through that door and wentthrough that route and that that
gave me the time to be able tosit here and breathe a little
easier and decide to write thisbook and do all that stuff.
(44:21):
So the last thing I would sayis just don't limit your, just
because I was a maintenance testpilot didn't mean I needed to
get out and be a civilianmaintenance test pilot.
I have more skill.
I mean, it's a good skill set.
You know, pilot's a good skillset and lucrative out there.
But if you don't absolutelyneed the money in the moment,
take a break and, you know, justease into that next thing.
(44:41):
Because if you jump intoanother job, it's just going to
be distraction from what'sreally bothering you underneath
the surface and I think we allthink we can just work I'm just
going to work through it I'mjust going to keep it the grind
because because I'm a man andthat's what I do but you also
and and that's commendable butwe also need to take that break
to realize okay hey there'ssomething going on there's
(45:03):
something stirring in me there'ssomething I don't think like I
used to and maybe we'll neverget it back but it's worth
trying to correct a potentialissue before it's something that
everyone's just sweeping aroundunder the rug and being like oh
well Chris is just that waywhen really it's a you know a
destructive habit and that iskind of what I've been saying it
(45:27):
on any other podcast I've beenon too but that's what walking
away from the ledge has morphedinto initially it was hey this
is a catchy title because Iwalked away from the ledge
literally
Speaker 02 (45:37):
yeah
Chris (45:37):
but now for me personally it's morphed into okay I need
to walk away that ledgerepresents as a Christian sin
but as in general just thedestructive behaviors that would
even lead me to that ledge inthe first place so I need to
walk away from that if that's ifthat's overreacting to a
situation getting angry maybewhen I shouldn't or or been
(46:00):
sober for two years and eightmonths give or take and I'm not
looking to add that back to thelist of things that I need to
walk away from again any timefor the rest of my life so just
take that time to breatheidentify what your ledge is and
get away from it because of whatreally matters your ability to
(46:24):
drink a bunch of alcohol or yourfamily the fact that you're out
and now you can go smoke someweed or something or your family
or whatever it is that'simportant to walk away from it I
hope that answered yourquestion I forget what it was
Genevieve (46:39):
no it was good it was just really you know what your
hopes of those that are going toread the book, because I know
there's a lot of friends thatwe've spoken with whose husbands
haven't really opened up aboutthat.
And I think just hearing ustalk together, I think maybe
there might be a point where wecould come back and just really
dove into the relationship andhow out of retirement, what that
(47:00):
has been like for ourcommunication, our marriage and
all of that.
So I think that's an importanttopic that can definitely be
discussed because I thinktransitioning out of military
after all of this is a anotherwhole hidden chapter all on its
own.
Chris (47:15):
Yeah, I think to just put a fine point off of my
rambling, my hope for the bookis that it encourages people to
persevere through theirchallenges that they're going
through or struggles, if youwant to call it struggles
instead of challenges,
Speaker 02 (47:29):
but
Chris (47:29):
persevere through it because anyone who's in my shoes
or even just had spent, noteven made it to retirement, you
persevered through so muchanyway.
Don't give up now.
I mean, just because thingslook hard or whatever, or maybe,
maybe unfortunately alcohol orpain medications or even drugs
(47:51):
is the only thing that gives yousome joy at the moment.
Now start transitioning towhere it's not those things
because it's fake joy.
It's not real.
It's people, relationships,family, and all that stuff that
is going to bring you true andlasting joy.
So that's, that's what I hopepeople kind of take away,
especially near the end of thebook is that perseverance
(48:11):
through the struggles you'regoing through now, seek those
relationships because theymatter more than whatever you
think is bringing you joy at themoment.
Genevieve (48:20):
Yeah.
I'm going to end with twothings.
The first one I wanted to kindof ask you is, and so you've
been on a couple of podcastsalready, so you get the joy of
being with me on my podcast.
Have you found it easier todiscuss more of these because of
the relationship that you and Ibeing husband and wife on this
one?
Chris (48:39):
And I
Genevieve (48:40):
already know all of your story.
Chris (48:41):
Yeah.
Well, I can't blink twice if Ineed help because we're on an
audio podcast.
So there's that.
But no, I don't feel censoredat all.
And you've lived througheverything and you read the book
and we discussed all the stuffin the book, all the stuff that
we went through.
So I'm comfortable talking withpretty much anybody about this
(49:04):
because, like I said, what Iwant people to take away from it
is not...
some of those portions thatsounded like me whining about my
service because that's not thetakeaway the takeaway is that
perseverance and the whole thingbecause again you know if if I
came into the military and wasjust with this mindset that I
just wasn't going to quit andI'm done with the military well
(49:29):
I'm not just going to quit nowyou know because because
regardless of whatever we wentthrough I love you I love our
girls I love my family and And Ilove you guys more than other
things in this world that aren'tgoing to last.
So I just...
No, I don't.
(49:50):
I don't feel censored.
I don't feel like I have tohold back.
If anything, there's so manyother details that after all the
podcasts and even after this,I'll be like, doggone it.
I wanted to say this or Iwanted to add that.
But, you know, actually withyou, I feel more free because I
haven't been able to talk abouton any podcast about the whole
withdrawal.
(50:11):
Yeah.
I can't even call it awithdrawal, just an abandonment,
you know, and it bothers me.
And it should bother.
a lot of people I mean okayyeah great we're out of there
but at what cost
Speaker 02 (50:24):
yeah
Chris (50:24):
at what cost continuing on at what cost during it what
cost before it yeah and it'sit's a horrendous thing to me
yeah of what we did and how wedid it and just leaving it what
it was so no I feel that talkingabout it with you is actually
inspiring me to open up a bitmore because I also know how we
(50:45):
stand politically Christian Leeworldly our world views in You
get the explicit version with mejust holding back the language
so that you don't get thatexplicit rating.
Genevieve (50:55):
Oh, yeah.
And I think that's what thiswhole podcast is about, too.
It's really digging into thosehidden chapters that we normally
from face value people don'tsee and they don't see the real
hidden struggles of how thingsare affecting you.
So the more and more I thinkyou and I get to talk about it
being on that other side nowbeing retired, you're able to
(51:15):
look at it from a differentlight and with a little bit more
clarity.
So I think that's good so wellthe last thing I just wanted to
say was how proud I was of you Iam proud that you did the brave
thing and you put your story onpaper and if you all could see
every day you sat at thatcomputer and you wrote and there
were days where you pushedliterally away from the computer
(51:37):
with a few explicits and saidI'm done I'm not doing this
today but I'm so proud that youhave done that and that this
book is out there And it isreally resonating with
everybody's.
And then I love that you'reproud of me and encourage me
through all of this endeavorthat I'm doing.
(51:59):
So
Chris (52:00):
yeah, well,
Genevieve (52:01):
I think we're tackling the world in paper and
in other medias.
Chris (52:06):
Well, and so for those who don't know that when Jenny
said this podcast has been onher heart for a long time, let
me know what equipment you needand commit to it.
Just do it.
And she has done that.
And I have told her multipletimes.
I'm so proud of her for doingit and they sound great.
And, and I would just encouragemore guys out there to step up
(52:30):
and share your hidden chapter.
Okay.
Cause we all have them.
The few guys she's had on sofar, they aren't the only ones
with some hidden chapters and,and just like my book, somebody
may need to hear your hiddenchapter because they're going
through the same thing and itwould help to encourage them
through their struggles.
Genevieve (52:49):
Yeah.
Well, on that note, if today'sconversation resonated with any
of you, you know, you can grabChris's book, Walking Away from
the Ledge.
I'll go ahead and post thatlink in the show notes so you
can purchase that on Amazon.
I promise you it's worth aread.
And I'll also link all the bestways that you can keep in touch
with Chris.
(53:10):
He has actually written a blog,a parade deck blog that has
some of his hilarious cutstories that didn't make it into
the book that I think you'llreally want to search for and
take a read on those.
It's something extendedversions of things that you
haven't been able to express.
Yeah,
Chris (53:26):
especially eight or nine pages of just funny ranger
school stories that ended upgetting condensed down to about
two paragraphs in the book tosay that, you know, ranger
school was challenging andpersevere.
But all those falling asleep,standing up and falling in a
swamp or whatever, all those arein the blog on Parade Deck.
And they're pretty comical andshort five minute reads.
Genevieve (53:50):
Yeah.
So those will all be linked inthe show notes as well and if
you want to keep up with all thebehind the scenes of Hidden
Chapters please follow me onSubstack this is where we are
going to start getting more indepth in those episodes that you
just want to continue theconversation behind the mic so
season two's got some greatthings happening and we just are
excited to have you so this isa rare occasion that you get
(54:12):
Genevieve and Chris on the micthanks for listening to Hidden
Chapters and remember the mostpowerful stories are the ones we
don't see so may your HiddenChapters bring life to someone
else's journey.
Hey, welcome back to Hidden Chapters.
Season two is here.
If you caught our bonuspreseason episode two weeks ago,
you know we celebrated a hugemilestone, over a thousand
downloads in just three shortmonths.
That's a thousand moments wheresomeone chose this podcast out
of three million plus showsavailable.
Listeners are tuning in fromacross the U.S.
(00:21):
and across the world, and thistells me it's no longer just my
friends and family listening.
Our reach is growing, and thatmeans more hidden stories is
being heard, more connection,and more encouragement.
So thank you for being part ofthat.
This season, we're diving intopowerful new stories from newly
published authors, and I'll alsoshare a couple of solo episodes
(00:44):
of my own hidden chapters.
And what better way to helpkick things off than with the
person who's been cheering me onfrom the very beginning.
He's been the sounding boardfor my podcast brainstorms, the
encourager when I doubtedmyself, and yes, even the one
keeping the household quietwhile I record in the closet.
He's also been on his ownjourney of launching a hidden
(01:06):
chapter in book form, so it'sonly fitting that he's here with
me now to start season two.
My husband Chris and I havebeen married for 19 years, and
I've had the privilege ofwalking beside him for 18 of his
22 and a half years in theArmy.
We faced deployments together,highs and lows, and we're still
here figuring out what's next.
(01:27):
Chris started out in the Armyas an infantryman and then
became a Black Hawk maintenancetest pilot.
Along the way, he went throughsome of the military's toughest
trainings and multipledeployment overseas.
After retiring, he worked onhis bachelor's degree at Liberty
University, and in that sameseason, he started writing down
(01:48):
his Army experiences.
His original goal was simply topass those stories on to our
daughters when they were ofappropriate ages.
But what began as a way topreserve memories quickly became
something more.
It became almost therapeutic,helping him process the weight
of service and mental healthstruggles.
With a little encouragementfrom me and a gentle
(02:10):
recommendation not to let itjust sit as a forgotten document
on a computer, with the help offriends' connections to an
editor and publisher, thisprivate writing journey turned
into a three-year process.
And now, his first publishedbook.
With his book completed andlaunched, Chris is here to share
some of the Army experiencethat he shared in his book, but
(02:32):
really get real and honest aboutthe dissatisfaction and and
some other honest topics worthsharing because there are things
not a lot of people talk about,which makes it perfect for
Hidden Chapters podcast.
So Chris, thank you for alwaysbeing my support and for being
my first guest in season two.
Chris (02:54):
Well, thank you for having me on.
I'm looking forward to it.
Genevieve (02:57):
Okay, so let's go back to the beginning.
You said that you were just anaverage guy in school.
You couldn't even do pull-ups.
So what drew you to join theArmy in the first place?
And how did that decisionchange your life from feeling
below average to achievingthings well above what you
thought possible?
Chris (03:16):
Yeah, so one thing that was in the book that got cut
initially and did end up in theblog, but now I kind of wish it
would have stayed in the book,was that all during middle
school, even high school, Ireally couldn't do pull-ups when
those presidential fitnesstests came around.
You know, I had to do the hangfor as long as you can in a
(03:36):
chin-up position, and it usuallywasn't very long.
I don't know, 10, maybe 15seconds if I was lucky.
And I wasn't very active insports in high school or
anything like that either.
just go into the games and allthat.
So when, you know, guidancecounselor mentioned the
military, I was like, no, like Ican't even do these basic
things.
And, you know, maybe I could do10 pushups or something like
(03:58):
that, but I just wasn'tphysically in the position that
I thought I should be in to beable to go into the military.
After high school and working alittle bit and hitting the gym,
full body, body weight and someweight workouts, you know, I
thought, okay, well, you know,I'm not as weak as I thought I
was and I could actually dopull-ups.
and do them pretty well becauseI was so lightweight.
(04:18):
So after that point...
I was just kind of like okaywell I can I can do some
physically demanding things andthen I bumped into the same army
recruiter three different timesthree different locations in
Spokane and I had a differentjob every single time so I just
kind of took it as God's sign asthis is where I was supposed to
(04:41):
go and instead of fighting itor making up excuses I just went
ahead with it and signed up andI didn't know I learned going
through that process thatthere's so many ways to be a
soldier.
And all I knew was infantry andtanks.
And even though I saw thevideos for the other options, I
was like, no, I want to goinfantry with airborne ranger in
(05:02):
my contract.
You know, just going to go allin, just challenge myself, I
guess, so I could be thestrongest, physically fit,
combative, all that type ofstuff, just going into it
because I thought that's whatthe Army was.
So that's what I went for whenI joined in.
Genevieve (05:21):
Yeah.
I just want to share that.
I thought it was kind of funnywhen you told me that first
story of how you dodged therecruiter at three different
places.
You want to share that justreal quick.
I think that's just a funnystory to share.
Chris (05:33):
Yeah.
And that's, uh, it's in thebook too, but, uh, since the
book is out, I can, I feel likeI can start giving away a little
bit more details.
But, uh, the first time, youknow, I was just kind of
perusing the mall and he, youknow, he's like, he's like, Hey,
thought about the army.
And I was like, Nope, not inthe slightest.
He's like, well, I got to fill,I got to get so many of these
(05:54):
cards filled out to meet myquota for the day.
Would you mind filling one out?
I was like, sure.
So I filled one out in the likemost garbage chicken scratch.
It was probably the only thinglegible was the phone number
because the numbers lookedright.
And, uh, and he called and Ipretended I wasn't home, even
though, you know, I was, wasn'tdoing anything anyway.
And just, you know, that wasthat, uh, the second time I was
(06:15):
working with diamond parkingdowntown, charging people to
park at concerts or whatever.
And, uh, he pulled in theparking lot and I started
walking up to him.
I was like, that's five or $10for parking, whatever it was at
the time.
And he says, oh, I'm notstaying here.
Have you thought about joiningthe army?
And I was like this mother, youknow, just like, no.
And he's like, well, here's acard if you change your mind.
(06:37):
And I think I filled out a cardthen too, but I just put the
wrong number down.
Didn't even care.
And then, you know, it took mea second to recognize him.
Then the final time I waswalking to a buddy's house
because I think at that point Ididn't even have a job had you
know my little initial you knowtrials with community college
(07:00):
and wasn't doing anything Ibumped into him and I was like
fine so I filled it out legiblyaddress phone number name all
that stuff and it was like talkto you soon so it was after that
that I was like I guess this iswhere I'm going this is what
I'm doing because I didn't haveanything else going on and I
didn't know what to do so I justkind of was like I'm all right,
(07:21):
God, I guess this is what youwant me to do.
Let's go on this journey.
And, uh, yeah, it's, it's, uh,it's had its ups and downs ever
since.
But I will say, since I'm herewith you, if I wouldn't have
joined the army, I wouldn't havemet you and we wouldn't have
our two beautiful daughtersgoing through this life
together.
And for all the ins, outs, ups,downs, goods, bads, uh, all
(07:46):
that rollercoaster of it all, Iwould not trade it for what not
signing up.
for the army would havebrought.
Genevieve (07:53):
Yeah.
Well, God had other plans andwe knew because I said I would
never marry military.
Growing up as a military bratand then seeing the hardship of
being military and moving, I wasthat military kid that was the
new kid after Christmas.
So I remember growing up sayingI'm never going to marry
military.
God had other plans on that onetoo.
Chris (08:13):
And with that then too, for people who know about Fort
Bragg, North Carolina or Vietnamas it's a affectionately
referred to sometimes.
I never imagined I was going tomeet a woman worthwhile there
as well.
So, you know, just, yeah, Godhad other plans and all around.
So yes, I found one of probablya handful of wonderful women in
(08:38):
the Fayetteville, NorthCarolina area.
Genevieve (08:42):
And here we are today, able to share our story.
So looking back, you weren't inspecial forces, but you still
pushed yourself to excel in thearmy.
So share a little bit of thatmoment from your early careers
that really made you feel likeyou were part of something
bigger, even if it wasn't anelite path.
Chris (09:01):
Well, so I just wasn't going to quit anything that was
brought my way.
Um, I, I don't remember makinga mental determination of that,
but you know, there were timesin basic training where we had a
guy go AWOL and you're like,Ooh, that sounds pretty good.
Cause this sucks right now.
And you know, I just like, no,I'm obviously not not going to
(09:21):
do that.
I didn't, you know, I was tooscared to and didn't know what I
was going to do.
I was thousands of miles awayfrom home.
The only home I knew, uh, causeit was in, uh, Fort Lenning,
Georgia.
So, you know, I wasn't going tomake my way back to Spokane and
I had nothing else to doanyway.
So I wasn't going to do that.
And then it was airborneschool.
And then the rangerindoctrination program or rip
(09:42):
holdover right after that, um,which I'll leave those details
in the book, but I did fail rip.
So I never made it into rangerbattalion.
I do remember after that point,I was like, cool, when I get to
my first unit, I'm going to dowhatever I have to do to go to
ranger school.
It's kind of like a redemptionshot for not making it a ranger
(10:02):
battalion.
And like I said, it just becamethis thing where I wasn't going
to quit.
No matter what went on in mymind, how much pain I was in
physically, emotionally,mentally, I was just gonna, you
know, my body would have to shutdown on itself before I would
mentally quit on anything I didand that really showed through
(10:25):
at the unit with the sergeantsthat were there one of the first
things we did after we gotthere was this 10 mile run just
before New Year's of 2001 andsomewhere near the end of it I
was just like I didn't know howmuch further we had to go
because I didn't know the areaand I didn't know we were right
near the end and I was like okayI'm gonna start slowing back
and one of the NCOs comesrunning up and he's you know
(10:47):
beside me and he's like he'slike don't you quit now we're
almost home and I was like okayand And that was just enough
motivation that I needed to getthere.
And me and three of the otherguys that I got there at the
same time with, that's a Foxcompany, 51st infantry, long
range surveillance company, the,uh, premier Lurse unit in the
army.
Uh, some echo company guysmight have, might have something
(11:09):
to say about that, but
Speaker 02 (11:10):
whatever.
Chris (11:11):
Um, um, yeah, me and these, uh, three other guys
finished first.
And so kind of all eyes were onus as, you know, top of the top
of the rung of the new guysthat came.
So that kind of helped me aswell to just be like, whatever I
do, I'm just not going to quit.
And that has that mentalityalone, not necessarily having a
(11:34):
full out game plan or anythinghas led me to do some great
things with that too.
Then it was expert infantrymanbadge.
And then after that, emergencymedical technician training,
which I was a nationallyregistered emergency medical
technician or EMT Bravo basic.
And after that, to pre-rangerschool, ranger school,
amphibious reconnaissanceschool, all these other
(11:56):
trainings that while maybe notat the fullest elite level, your
average infantry guy down atthe 82nd didn't get these
opportunities like I did.
So, you know, like I said, itwas just basically like, okay, I
was brought to this and I'mgoing to see it through and I'm
not going to quit.
And, you know, success camefrom, from not quitting and all
(12:20):
these gifts of all theseschools, I guess the best way to
say it would be that they werea gift, you know, came as a
result of me just quitting.
Genevieve (12:30):
Yeah.
Well, I'll always say thatyou're cooler than I am because
you've done some pretty neatthings in your Army career.
So I remember you mentioned allthose trainings from Fest, rope
repelling, air assault,multi-ship operations, and night
ops too.
So what did that training feellike for you?
And how did that build yoursense of purpose and readiness
(12:52):
for combat?
Chris (12:54):
You know, the training, like I said, I just, I went
through it and it was just whatwe had to do.
And, you know, we learned fromit, tried to make it work.
ourselves better going throughit all so you know you do
everything in daytime conditionsjust as rehearsals with maybe
running it with your buddies noweapons and then you get to the
range and you're just kind of aweapon and you go through it and
(13:17):
then it's with kit and thenit's at night with night vision
goggles and all that kind ofstuff and it was the same for
aviation the first practices aredaytime and you progressively
get more challenging andchallenging you add in you know
nighttime and then more aircraftand all that stuff.
So going through it, it wassuch a progression that it
(13:39):
wasn't...
It was always tough, of course,but it wasn't like...
this is too much.
And it was always the way itprogressed.
It was always fun and justchallenging yourself and getting
better and all those conditionsthroughout that.
So I guess because it was whatI was doing, I never looked at
it and was like, this is cool.
I think in halo school, youhave kind of a moment to go, Oh,
(14:01):
I'm getting it.
This is cool.
Like, and then, and it is.
And that's why I think for me,skydiving was the most fun thing
I've ever done in and out ofthe army.
Um, because it is cool.
Uh, everything else to me palesin comparison.
riding motorcycles, flyinghelicopters, all that stuff to
me just pales in comparison tojust throwing yourself out of an
(14:22):
aircraft at 15,000 feet,jumping with some buddies,
linking up, you know, screwingaround in the air and then
throwing that parachute out andcome in, have a nice landing and
then go in and do it again.
So that was the only one whereI can say like this was really
cool training and everythingelse was just a progression
where it got more challenging.
But again, you know, I was justgoing to continue to not quit
(14:44):
and try and be the best that Icould while we were going
through it.
Genevieve (14:48):
Yeah.
So you joined the Army before9-11, had done all of these
trainings for preparation forany world war that would happen.
And then 9-11 hit and youdeployed.
So your first deployment was toIraq for a year.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout how you had prepared?
(15:08):
But then once you got there,all of those trainings and those
things that you had beenpracticing and training for
didn't really end up being thething that you would do when you
were deployed?
Chris (15:19):
Yeah.
So with long rangesurveillance, the mission is for
six guys to go ahead of theflaw, the forward line of
troops, uh, provide Intel for anupcoming hit or, or whatever,
another unit to come in and besuccessful at their mission,
engaging whatever target youwent in and looked at.
(15:40):
Um, And that was what we wouldtrain on in training it, whether
it was at JRTC in Fort Polk,Louisiana or any, anywhere else
that we train, that's what wewould train on.
And we did a couple of missionslike that early on after the
invasion.
But one of the first things wedid after rolling into Iraq was
(16:03):
pull the airfield security, Isay with finger quotes, because
we were just kind of securingthis little landing strip in the
middle of nowhere in the desertfor UAVs or UAS systems
unmanned aerial vehicles andsystems to be able to launch and
take off so we were just outthere plopped down as a unit
(16:24):
just wasting away for like twoweeks and then we moved on to to
crit and then to Missoula andwe finally got some actual
missions observing kind ofpatterns of life and things like
that with traffic and therewere supposed to be some other
things but then it ended upbeing patrolling which is an
infantry task of course but avehicle mounted patrolling in
(16:44):
Missoula.
And early on there, therewasn't a whole lot of
resistance.
There wasn't any firefights,anything about it.
And we just rolled, you know,rotated teams that went out and
however many vehicles and allthat stuff.
We had some other kind of meetand greets of North Dahuk and
Zako areas in Northern Iraq.
(17:05):
And with the Peshmerga thatwere in the area, they were
Kurdish fighters that occupiedthe North there.
And then, you know, there wassome training for terrorist
training camp, suspectedterrorist training camp
interdictions and things likethat that never went anywhere.
But here we are in Iraq notdoing our mission because...
or not doing our primarymission because there wasn't
(17:27):
really anything to go watch forobjective-wise for other units
to come and engage them.
With these vehicle-mountedpatrols, they were just kind of
like just driving around thecity, but we didn't have
up-armored Humvees, so we werejust guys rolling around the
back of an open Humvee justrolling targets at that point.
So it was a littlediscouraging, but, you know,
(17:48):
being young, dumb, didn't care.
I'm ready for anybody to shootat me so we can shoot back or
whatever, which, you know,didn't happen really on the
regular if at all for most of usand then the last thing we did
a little over midway through soAugust if I remember right of
2003 we went up to Zaco andstayed in a compound up there to
(18:12):
train up Iraqi border patroland I didn't mind it because
then we had like vehicles andgear and all this other stuff to
kind of train them up so it wascool because of where we're at
getting out of the cities downthere, getting up into the kind
of more mountainous areas, alittle cooler up there.
But, um, the deploymentscontinued to go like that where
(18:34):
it was just a lot of vehiclemounted patrolling through the
deserts and there wasn't a wholelot of team level missions.
Uh, and I, and I cover that inmore detail in the book.
But then when we switched overto aviation, it became the same
thing.
We trained up for multi-shipaerosols on objectives and that
was our primary focus oftraining.
But, uh, And what ended upbeing was, you know, what they
(18:58):
call milk runs, you know, justflying people from here to there
so that they could make theirmeetings on time.
And, you know, without havingto do VTC, it ended up just
feeling like a ginormous wasteof time.
on all my aviation deploymentsbecause everything we trained
for, we weren't allowed to do.
(19:18):
And it was just transportingpeople from point A to point B.
And even on my final deploymentin 2019, 2020 to Kandahar, we
were supporting some specialforces missions, you know,
interdicting targets and doingthese other things.
And then all of a sudden,because we weren't flying the
right colored Blackhawks, youknow, we weren't allowed to do
(19:42):
these missions anymore becausecommand and didn't want to
assume the risk.
And that seemed to be the finalstraw on all these things.
We were trained in Halo ops,but nobody wanted to do the Halo
mission in Iraq because theydidn't want to assume the risk.
And nobody wanted to let us dowhatever in Afghanistan because
(20:02):
we were flying green Blackhawks,not black Blackhawks, and they
didn't want to assume the risk.
So that was definitely an issueof contention and
disappointment on all thesedeployments that even though we
were just as well trained asanybody else, we took the
training seriously.
We did the training seriously.
Took the time to refine it whenwe had that time to.
(20:24):
We weren't in SOCOM.
We weren't in the specialcommunity.
So we weren't allowed to do thethings that we trained for.
So it ended up feeling like ourtraining was invalidated and it
was a waste.
Genevieve (20:38):
So with all of the training that you've done, it's
obviously weighed on you sixdeployments.
were there specific moments inall of these deployments where
you just realized a chain ofcommand was holding you back
because a risk aversion and howdid all of us start to culminate
to where those letdownsaffected your mindset daily
Chris (21:00):
yeah so and and to clarify with the chain of
command letting it wasn'tletting me down it was letting
us all down And a lot of itbecame just, what's the point?
You know, if, if we're just, ifI'm flying a Lieutenant
(21:21):
Colonel, Colonel General,whoever around, so he can go do
a meeting and, To me, that wasfraud, waste and abuse because
they could have just as easydone that meeting as a BTC and
they didn't need us.
And that was resources thatcould have been allocated other
ways for more serious missions.
(21:41):
And at the same time, now we'reflying around daytime couple
aircraft and we're just a targetflying around same thing with
infantry we're just rollingaround being a target for
something that possibly didn'tneed to happen i the challenge
was i can't change it myself andif i speak up and say something
(22:03):
it's just going to fall on deafears and it's not going to
matter so that that was that wasthe struggle that it just
became like what's the point ofus even being here if this is
all it's going to be and we'renot engaging the enemy we're not
you know doing the mission thatwe signed up for in the army
(22:25):
we're just flying men, weaponsand equipment.
And that could be women, too.
But that's what we say.
MWE, men, weapons and equipmentfrom point A to point B.
Like, what's what's the point,you know, aside from getting
someone or something to where itneeds to be?
Genevieve (22:41):
So you spent several years deploying.
And then after all of thosedeployments in your 22 and a
half year career, the withdrawalfrom Afghanistan seemed like
the ultimate invalidation foryou.
So after 20 years of sacrifice,losing limbs, life, a president
pulls out, leaving helicopters,Humvees, MRAPs, weapons,
(23:02):
everything behind.
So how did that moment hit you,making your entire career feel
like a waste?
Chris (23:11):
So just the way they went about pulling everybody out
while we were there in 2020,there was a planned withdrawal
and it was ongoing.
And we saw Kandahar was smallin comparison to what, uh, all
the people who had been deployedthere prior had said it was
like, you know, just busy allthe time and buffling.
(23:33):
And there wasn't, uh, you know,very many units there.
So the, the withdrawal was slowcalculated and going and then a
year after we get home fouryears ago roughly now they
decide to just abandon italtogether no withdrawal just
(23:53):
pull everybody out right nowlet's go leaving all that
equipment that you mentioned andso to me it was just such a
punch in the gut and not onlythat just 13 more lost lives on
top of everything else rightthen and there with an
administration that didn't carecare they didn't hold anybody
accountable they just did it andwere like trying to celebrate
(24:18):
that we were out of afghanistanafter 20 years and i'm all for
that but why you know without asolid plan now The Taliban is
more emboldened.
And not only that, they're moreemboldened with greater
equipment than they would haveever had.
(24:38):
So in all honesty, from whatyou can see from the outside, is
that Afghanistan is in a worseoff position than if we never
even would have went thereafterward.
If you see a movie, 13 Strong,about special forces that goes
in there right after 9-11 and isbombing all these places in
(24:59):
northern Afghanistan andretaliatory attacks right I
don't know the whole details ofit just what that movie showed
but you know things werehappening so then we invade
occupy and then we just pull outand leave and now they have all
this gear and they're betterequipped to me it just it did it
invalidated all the trainingall the loss of life all the
(25:21):
loss of limbs all those peoplewho have PTSD or other traumatic
issues that they're goingthrough afterward It made all of
it just useless and not worththe effort it was to spend all
that time there.
And, you know, the only thingI'm not mentioning is the money
(25:43):
because it all costs money, butit costs more than that.
It costed lives.
And so to just, again, to justabandon it, just straight up
invalidated every bit of losswe've experienced over 20 years.
And to me, it's really just aslap in the face to all the
family members who lost aservice member during that time
(26:04):
as well it just there I don'tthink there's any other way to
see it regardless of of how youview view it in that time just
and And then for me, not onlythat, it invalidated all my
service because, you know, Ihave 11 combat stripes.
That's 66 months I spent in theMiddle East.
(26:26):
70 months of deployed timetotal in my military career and
all of it was for nothing.
That's the only way I see it isall of it was for nothing
because we were just going towalk away and abandon and leave
them emboldened, empowered andall that stuff because now the
Taliban saw that all they hadThanks for playing, Loser.
Genevieve (27:04):
Yeah, that raw invalidation that ties directly
into the mental battles that youfaced coming back.
And so that's essentially whereyour book explores a lot of
that.
And you talk about the mentalstruggles, including the
suicidal thoughts, which yourbook Walking Away from the Ledge
dives more into.
And I know from my perspective,I saw a lot of that frustration
(27:25):
and anger on the other side.
So share those invalidationsfrom your career into those
battles and what it took tostart pulling yourself back.
Chris (27:33):
It was, you know, yeah for going to the suicidal
thoughts or ideation it was justthat nothing i did matter
nothing i did here at homenothing i did there at work
nothing i did on a deploymentanywhere nothing seemed to
matter didn't matter if i was agood leader a good maintenance
test pilot a good maintenanceprofessional um pilot anything
(27:57):
that just none of it matteredand I just wanted to end it all.
And then the biggest thing thatstopped me was fear of failure
and that I would live through itand be a bigger burden to my
family than any amount of mydrinking or personal struggles
(28:22):
with anything was going to be,that I'd be a bigger burden in
the long run.
So really the mental struggleswas at that point that I wanted
to be better for my family andyou know I didn't come to that
conclusion snap my fingers andeverything was magically better
you know it's been and that wasfrom about August of 21 to now
(28:48):
it's been a long road and youknow that and the thing is I
have to continue on the road tocontinue to overcome and just
remember that you know I'm notthere now my service wasn't
invalidated by that regardlessof how I feel it wasn't
invalidated but with writing thebook you know putting my
(29:10):
thoughts on paper being able toprocess it better and share that
with people it has helped me tosee that I have impacted lives.
You know, that I have...
impacted people for the better,that they still look at me
fondly, that my family stillloves me and wants me around.
(29:32):
But writing it all out hadhelped me to be able to say,
like, here's my frustration, getit out there, the emotions out
of me.
And now it's encouraging otherpeople to do the same thing to
where they were just going topush on past it as well.
Genevieve (29:48):
Yeah.
And I think that's somethingyou and I have spoken about
several times is they don't knowthe talked about the
reintegration, that people seethe happy homecomings, but what
they don't see is the dailystruggle because now you're
having to reintegrate withfamily and you're having to
reintegrate with society.
And I know that a lot of thosethings you felt like you took
(30:11):
all those months away fromfamily and coming home for what?
Chris (30:16):
Well, and the homecoming on the other side is that we're
all happy to come home and whilewe're on our way home, you
know, we're thinking about thewill want to see the places we
want to go the foods we want toeat and all that stuff and and I
think it's so service memberfocused that though it's hard to
(30:38):
take that time and rememberthat you know while while you
were home, and I know you weretaken care of monetarily, you
weren't at any type of fear ofloss for the house or food on
the table, there was still thisunderlying thing that family
members have to go through aswell to shut off their fear in
(31:00):
themselves so that they can pushon through without just
spending every moment in tormentthat they're gonna get that
message or the knock on the doorwith a flag and a chaplain.
And I think, you know, for thepeople deployed, we signed up to
up to and including our lives.
Right.
(31:20):
So sometimes I think thatbecomes the expectation that
something's going to happen.
I'm not going to make it home,so I don't have to worry about
it.
And then I make it home andit's hard to go from, okay, I
may die here.
I'm most likely going to diehere.
So I don't have to worry somuch about what's on the back
end of that to, oh, I'm homenow.
(31:42):
I just went from nine, 12, 15months of having to kind of shut
off emotionally or be concernedabout loss of life, limer,
hindsight to now I'm home andI'm safer, but it doesn't, your
brain doesn't automaticallyswitch back into safe mode.
There's no, there's, there's noswitch there to go.
(32:03):
I'm in danger.
I'm in danger.
I'm in danger, but I shut thatoff so I can focus and get my
job done, uh, to I'm safe.
Now your brain stays wired inthat danger mode.
And for some people, I thinkit's forever if they don't ever
go and get that help.
So it's definitely a challengeto, you know, do that 180.
(32:24):
And that's part of the otherprocess of...
Of coming back home and tryingto reintegrate and take those
steps because we all just thinkit's going to be natural.
And it's just it's not anatural process to go from what
you experienced duringdeployment to coming back home.
(32:47):
You know, we all just we alljust think it's going to be
easy.
Hey, I'm back home and I'mnormal.
Everything's normal.
Everything's good.
But we're not.
It changed us mostlypermanently.
but at least if not permanentlyfor a good amount of time and
if we don't take any steps to gothrough that process whatever
it may be counseling therapyjournaling listening to
(33:12):
encouraging podcasts whateverwe're going to stay stuck in
that mode too yeah which isanother thing that I just kind
of came to as well with writingthe book I was like like you
said having something to handthe girls yeah so they knew what
I went through or what I didfor 22 two years, but also to
once I got into it and realizedthe emotion poured out of it and
(33:34):
how it felt to kind of release,release those emotions, release
those thoughts, put them backin and leave them where they're
supposed to be.
It helped a lot.
Genevieve (33:47):
Yeah.
And I've heard it several timeswhere men have either by army
or just by training, learn tocompartmentalize so they can put
work in a workbox, family in afamily box put both of those up,
neither touch, but unpackingthose is tough because you've
pushed it down all those years.
Chris (34:07):
Well, I think too, since you mentioned that, this just
came to mind,compartmentalization, it's just
not, I think too, and not adoctor, but maybe there's
something more for soldiers ormilitary members specifically
where it's just not evencompartmentalized in the same
drawer.
We put it all in a differentdrawer And then we don't open
(34:29):
that drawer back up.
Yeah.
I mean, that might besomething.
I'm sure there's an expert outthere that could, you know,
confirm or deny that for me.
But I mean, maybe it's just thefamily, the concerns, the
bills, mowing the grass, allthat stuff.
It just it's not evencompartmentalized anymore.
It's moved to another drawerand it's moved there for so
long.
It collects dust.
(34:50):
And then we just don't likecare about it anymore or care
about it to include family.
Unfortunately, like we did.
those times before so that'sand that's another reason why
you know we expect to come homeand just be like okay cool i'm
gonna open this drawer back upor i'm gonna open this box back
up but it just doesn't open thesame and we gotta navigate that
(35:13):
whole thing
Genevieve (35:14):
yeah so i know that this is a common veteran
struggle that we hear a lot thishidden chapters it goes way
deeper so i know there's a partin your book where you felt
could capture the heart of whatyou've been through.
Chris (35:30):
So yeah, this is an excerpt from my book.
And these were my thoughts whenwe were coming back from
Pacific Pathways, which wasn't acombat deployment, but it was
still pretty crappy to say theleast.
But when we get to this pointin the book, I kind of was a
little bit on a tirade of somethings.
And then I kind of steppedoutside of myself to think of
(35:51):
what someone else might bethinking if they thought I was
whiny.
So the excerpt goes, you may bethinking, Kristen, that doesn't
sound so bad.
You're in the military.
What do you want?
The four seasons?
Well, yes and no.
All I ever wanted was tobelieve in the delusion that
someone in the chain of commandbeyond the company commander
cared about us.
Mission first?
Sure.
(36:12):
No doubt.
But to what extent?
Another factor at this point inmy 18 years is that I have
already deployed to the MiddleEast for longer than 70% of the
people around me have.
What's worse, I've alreadydeployed twice as many times and
had twice as many length ofdeployed time as those who have
been in the same amount of timeand are also in charge of me.
(36:35):
You know how infuriating it isto have 18 years of military
experience, 8 years of aviationexperience, and 4 years of MTP
experience, and then have allyour suggestions,
recommendations, and experiencestraight up dismissed by some F
and LT that has been in for 3years?
It's beyond infuriating.
To take a training or livescenario, lay out every possible
(36:57):
course of action, recommend thebest one to take and then every
bit of advice based on years ofexperience is disregarded
because some effer has a collegedegree in criminal justice is
just criminal in and of itselfif some of this sounds like
entitled whininess then I'llconcede that some of it is but I
think I have well and trulyearned the right to it at this
(37:18):
point And it always reminded meof that Joe Pesci line from my
cousin Vinny, when he approachesthe judge and says, you know,
just a well thought out argumentof why some expert on tire
rubber shouldn't be allowed togive his testimony on the
witness stand.
And the judge says, you know,that was well thought out,
(37:40):
articulated, all that stuff.
And Joe Pesci looks up andsays, thank you.
And he goes, overruled, youknow, and that's, you can only,
you know, he handled it one timein the movie and, you know, he
mutters some stuff almost homealone styles.
He's walking away from thejudge and all that stuff.
And that's how now, now takethat one incident that was funny
(38:01):
from my cousin Vinny and justcompound that near daily, like
how long could you sit here andendure being told, you know,
hey, that's a good idea.
Go after yourself.
Speaker 02 (38:15):
Yeah.
Chris (38:16):
Essentially.
And until you're just tired ofit and you're like, fine, you
know, add that compound metalinto everything else that I was
experiencing.
And this was three years beforethe suicide ideation.
So there was three more yearsof stuff on top of it.
Genevieve (38:30):
Yeah.
Chris (38:30):
Yeah.
Genevieve (38:31):
Yes.
Is it more freeing saying itout loud?
Chris (38:34):
Like, like I just said in there, you know, when you read
it in the book, you're be like,well, he's whiny.
But here's the thing.
We live near Redstone Arsenal,right?
And I go on post regularly towork out or to the commissary or
anywhere else, and you see thefront row parking spots.
They all say, G.O., GeneralOfficer, and then somebody else,
(38:55):
or Command Sergeant Major andall this stuff, right?
So what may sound like entitledwhininess, and I'm using
whininess in place of a wordthat starts with a B, but Yeah.
All I ever wanted...
or hoped for was what would, inmy eyes, kind of naturally be
(39:18):
due my rank.
I didn't want specialtreatment, special privilege,
you know, they say, oh, I willnot use my rank for special
privilege treatment, blah, blah,blah, right?
And I didn't want specialtreatment.
I just wanted the respect thatcame with the rank that I had
without having to fight for it.
And even as a senior chiefwarden of three maintenance test
(39:43):
pilot in the army I didn'texpect that everything I said
would go but I expected that ifI gave something based off of my
experience it didn't matter youknow most most company
commanders I had would take itinto respect and even even fight
for it instead of fight againstit but it was it was in the
(40:04):
midst of all those things wherethere was somebody outside that
influence it was like basicallyno it's my way that it was just
the infuriating portion.
But to answer your question,yeah, it's a little more freeing
reading it out loud, but it'seven more freeing that I'm away
from it and I don't have toworry about it anymore.
But if I go and get a job inthe civilian side, I would have
(40:27):
a little bit more freedom to be,hey, Bob, you know, maybe it
should be this or that.
And we have a discussion aboutit rather than like, no, you
just started working here.
You don't know what you're
Genevieve (40:38):
talking about.
Yeah.
Well, I also think since youhave retired, And you've had
this chance to have the timeoff.
It has allowed some of thisanger that you came out of
service with, all this feelingsand emotions that you had to
kind of settle.
So I think that's also helpedto settle.
(40:58):
articulate more now than youprobably did three years ago.
Your book is going to beespecially important now because
there are those veterans thatare still struggling to explain
what they've been through.
And it's hard for a lot of thefamily members like myself.
I don't pretend to knoweverything that you've been
through and I don't have thewords for you a lot of times.
(41:20):
And so speaking to anotherveteran is helpful.
So how do you hope that sharingthis pulls other veterans out
of silence?
and helps them feel likethey're less alone in their
invalidation.
I
Chris (41:34):
think a lot of other veterans are just they want to
do almost like the deploymentthing.
I've been deployed, now I'mhome.
Speaker 02 (41:44):
Yeah.
Chris (41:45):
And I can be home.
And it just, like we talkedabout, you can't flip that
switch.
And I think a lot of veteranswant to get out of the military,
whatever branch, and just putit behind them like it was just
another job, like they were justspent 5, 10, 15, 20 years at
McDonald's flipping burgers, andnow they're just moving into
(42:06):
the next chapter.
Yeah.
But regular jobs out theredon't require you to put on a
uniform.
They don't require you to leadat the level that we were
leading at.
They don't require you toadhere to Uniform Code of
Military Justice, you know, andstrict regulations and rules and
(42:27):
all that stuff.
So I would say in myexperience, again, not a doctor,
borderline impossible to justget out of the military and even
walk into a new job.
And maybe it was something likemost of most of us do get out
and go do the civilian versionof the job that we were doing
(42:49):
and just move on like nothinghappened.
So that that may be all true.
but to be able to just simplywalk away hang it up and be like
it was just a regular day atwork and nothing happened yeah I
don't think that's possible todo so one a lot of people have
been messaging me already afterreading even just a portion of
(43:10):
the books and you know it'sencouraging them to speak up
about the challenges thatthey're going through or their
service or whatever and that'sgreat one thing I encourage
everybody to do if they're ableto like in the position we were
able to be in is you know takethat time off breathe a little
bit don't just jump right intothat next job you know plan it
just give yourself a timewhatever that time may be and I
(43:35):
would recommend it be longerthan a month you know give some
time back to your family beforeyou just walk right into that
next job if you don't have afamily because something
happened during your servicethen okay but you know still try
and give a little time if youcan back to those people that
stood by you the whole timedon't just walk into something
else and expect them or in oursituation see if the other one
(43:58):
wants to do something like goback to work and give that a try
and that was something wediscussed at length and you know
you wanted to go back to workand and so we walked we walked
through that door and wentthrough that route and that that
gave me the time to be able tosit here and breathe a little
easier and decide to write thisbook and do all that stuff.
(44:21):
So the last thing I would sayis just don't limit your, just
because I was a maintenance testpilot didn't mean I needed to
get out and be a civilianmaintenance test pilot.
I have more skill.
I mean, it's a good skill set.
You know, pilot's a good skillset and lucrative out there.
But if you don't absolutelyneed the money in the moment,
take a break and, you know, justease into that next thing.
(44:41):
Because if you jump intoanother job, it's just going to
be distraction from what'sreally bothering you underneath
the surface and I think we allthink we can just work I'm just
going to work through it I'mjust going to keep it the grind
because because I'm a man andthat's what I do but you also
and and that's commendable butwe also need to take that break
to realize okay hey there'ssomething going on there's
(45:03):
something stirring in me there'ssomething I don't think like I
used to and maybe we'll neverget it back but it's worth
trying to correct a potentialissue before it's something that
everyone's just sweeping aroundunder the rug and being like oh
well Chris is just that waywhen really it's a you know a
destructive habit and that iskind of what I've been saying it
(45:27):
on any other podcast I've beenon too but that's what walking
away from the ledge has morphedinto initially it was hey this
is a catchy title because Iwalked away from the ledge
literally
Speaker 02 (45:37):
yeah
Chris (45:37):
but now for me personally it's morphed into okay I need
to walk away that ledgerepresents as a Christian sin
but as in general just thedestructive behaviors that would
even lead me to that ledge inthe first place so I need to
walk away from that if that's ifthat's overreacting to a
situation getting angry maybewhen I shouldn't or or been
(46:00):
sober for two years and eightmonths give or take and I'm not
looking to add that back to thelist of things that I need to
walk away from again any timefor the rest of my life so just
take that time to breatheidentify what your ledge is and
get away from it because of whatreally matters your ability to
(46:24):
drink a bunch of alcohol or yourfamily the fact that you're out
and now you can go smoke someweed or something or your family
or whatever it is that'simportant to walk away from it I
hope that answered yourquestion I forget what it was
Genevieve (46:39):
no it was good it was just really you know what your
hopes of those that are going toread the book, because I know
there's a lot of friends thatwe've spoken with whose husbands
haven't really opened up aboutthat.
And I think just hearing ustalk together, I think maybe
there might be a point where wecould come back and just really
dove into the relationship andhow out of retirement, what that
(47:00):
has been like for ourcommunication, our marriage and
all of that.
So I think that's an importanttopic that can definitely be
discussed because I thinktransitioning out of military
after all of this is a anotherwhole hidden chapter all on its
own.
Chris (47:15):
Yeah, I think to just put a fine point off of my
rambling, my hope for the bookis that it encourages people to
persevere through theirchallenges that they're going
through or struggles, if youwant to call it struggles
instead of challenges,
Speaker 02 (47:29):
but
Chris (47:29):
persevere through it because anyone who's in my shoes
or even just had spent, noteven made it to retirement, you
persevered through so muchanyway.
Don't give up now.
I mean, just because thingslook hard or whatever, or maybe,
maybe unfortunately alcohol orpain medications or even drugs
(47:51):
is the only thing that gives yousome joy at the moment.
Now start transitioning towhere it's not those things
because it's fake joy.
It's not real.
It's people, relationships,family, and all that stuff that
is going to bring you true andlasting joy.
So that's, that's what I hopepeople kind of take away,
especially near the end of thebook is that perseverance
(48:11):
through the struggles you'regoing through now, seek those
relationships because theymatter more than whatever you
think is bringing you joy at themoment.
Genevieve (48:20):
Yeah.
I'm going to end with twothings.
The first one I wanted to kindof ask you is, and so you've
been on a couple of podcastsalready, so you get the joy of
being with me on my podcast.
Have you found it easier todiscuss more of these because of
the relationship that you and Ibeing husband and wife on this
one?
Chris (48:39):
And I
Genevieve (48:40):
already know all of your story.
Chris (48:41):
Yeah.
Well, I can't blink twice if Ineed help because we're on an
audio podcast.
So there's that.
But no, I don't feel censoredat all.
And you've lived througheverything and you read the book
and we discussed all the stuffin the book, all the stuff that
we went through.
So I'm comfortable talking withpretty much anybody about this
(49:04):
because, like I said, what Iwant people to take away from it
is not...
some of those portions thatsounded like me whining about my
service because that's not thetakeaway the takeaway is that
perseverance and the whole thingbecause again you know if if I
came into the military and wasjust with this mindset that I
just wasn't going to quit andI'm done with the military well
(49:29):
I'm not just going to quit nowyou know because because
regardless of whatever we wentthrough I love you I love our
girls I love my family and And Ilove you guys more than other
things in this world that aren'tgoing to last.
So I just...
No, I don't.
(49:50):
I don't feel censored.
I don't feel like I have tohold back.
If anything, there's so manyother details that after all the
podcasts and even after this,I'll be like, doggone it.
I wanted to say this or Iwanted to add that.
But, you know, actually withyou, I feel more free because I
haven't been able to talk abouton any podcast about the whole
withdrawal.
(50:11):
Yeah.
I can't even call it awithdrawal, just an abandonment,
you know, and it bothers me.
And it should bother.
a lot of people I mean okayyeah great we're out of there
but at what cost
Speaker 02 (50:24):
yeah
Chris (50:24):
at what cost continuing on at what cost during it what
cost before it yeah and it'sit's a horrendous thing to me
yeah of what we did and how wedid it and just leaving it what
it was so no I feel that talkingabout it with you is actually
inspiring me to open up a bitmore because I also know how we
(50:45):
stand politically Christian Leeworldly our world views in You
get the explicit version with mejust holding back the language
so that you don't get thatexplicit rating.
Genevieve (50:55):
Oh, yeah.
And I think that's what thiswhole podcast is about, too.
It's really digging into thosehidden chapters that we normally
from face value people don'tsee and they don't see the real
hidden struggles of how thingsare affecting you.
So the more and more I thinkyou and I get to talk about it
being on that other side nowbeing retired, you're able to
(51:15):
look at it from a differentlight and with a little bit more
clarity.
So I think that's good so wellthe last thing I just wanted to
say was how proud I was of you Iam proud that you did the brave
thing and you put your story onpaper and if you all could see
every day you sat at thatcomputer and you wrote and there
were days where you pushedliterally away from the computer
(51:37):
with a few explicits and saidI'm done I'm not doing this
today but I'm so proud that youhave done that and that this
book is out there And it isreally resonating with
everybody's.
And then I love that you'reproud of me and encourage me
through all of this endeavorthat I'm doing.
(51:59):
So
Chris (52:00):
yeah, well,
Genevieve (52:01):
I think we're tackling the world in paper and
in other medias.
Chris (52:06):
Well, and so for those who don't know that when Jenny
said this podcast has been onher heart for a long time, let
me know what equipment you needand commit to it.
Just do it.
And she has done that.
And I have told her multipletimes.
I'm so proud of her for doingit and they sound great.
And, and I would just encouragemore guys out there to step up
(52:30):
and share your hidden chapter.
Okay.
Cause we all have them.
The few guys she's had on sofar, they aren't the only ones
with some hidden chapters and,and just like my book, somebody
may need to hear your hiddenchapter because they're going
through the same thing and itwould help to encourage them
through their struggles.
Genevieve (52:49):
Yeah.
Well, on that note, if today'sconversation resonated with any
of you, you know, you can grabChris's book, Walking Away from
the Ledge.
I'll go ahead and post thatlink in the show notes so you
can purchase that on Amazon.
I promise you it's worth aread.
And I'll also link all the bestways that you can keep in touch
with Chris.
(53:10):
He has actually written a blog,a parade deck blog that has
some of his hilarious cutstories that didn't make it into
the book that I think you'llreally want to search for and
take a read on those.
It's something extendedversions of things that you
haven't been able to express.
Yeah,
Chris (53:26):
especially eight or nine pages of just funny ranger
school stories that ended upgetting condensed down to about
two paragraphs in the book tosay that, you know, ranger
school was challenging andpersevere.
But all those falling asleep,standing up and falling in a
swamp or whatever, all those arein the blog on Parade Deck.
And they're pretty comical andshort five minute reads.
Genevieve (53:50):
Yeah.
So those will all be linked inthe show notes as well and if
you want to keep up with all thebehind the scenes of Hidden
Chapters please follow me onSubstack this is where we are
going to start getting more indepth in those episodes that you
just want to continue theconversation behind the mic so
season two's got some greatthings happening and we just are
excited to have you so this isa rare occasion that you get
(54:12):
Genevieve and Chris on the micthanks for listening to Hidden
Chapters and remember the mostpowerful stories are the ones we
don't see so may your HiddenChapters bring life to someone
else's journey.
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