August 21, 2025 • 49 mins
In the early hours of March 24, 1976, the streets of Buenos Aires rumble with tanks as soldiers seize the presidential palace and topple Argentina’s leader. The country is now under the control of a military junta, with army chief Jorge Rafael Videla at the helm. With quiet support from the United States and tacit approval from much of Argentina’s people, who are tired of constant bombings and gunfights, the junta swiftly launches the National Reorganization Process or El Proceso—a bland name masking their ruthless campaign to crush the political left and instill the country with “Western, Christian” values. The junta holds power until 1983 and decimates a generation. One of the military’s most diabolical acts is kidnapping hundreds of pregnant women. After giving birth in captivity, the women are “disappeared,” and their babies secretly given to other families—many of them headed by police or military officers.
For mothers of pregnant daughters and daughters-in-law, the source of their grief is twofold—the disappearances of their children, and the theft of their grandchildren. A group of fierce grandmothers forms the Abuelas de Plaza de Mayo, dedicated to finding the stolen infants and seeking justice from a nation that betrayed them. At a time when speaking out could mean death, the Abuelas confront military officers and launch protests to reach international diplomats and journalists.
They become detectives, adopting disguises to observe suspected grandchildren, and even work alongside a renowned American scientist to pioneer groundbreaking genetic tests. A Flower Traveled in My Blood is the rarest of nonfiction that reads like a novel and puts your heart in your throat. It is the product of years of extensive archival research and meticulous, original reporting. It marks the arrival of a blazing new talent in narrative journalism. In these pages, a regime tries to terrorize a country, but love prevails. The grandmothers’ stunning stories reveal new truths about memory, identity, and family.
https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/A-Flower-Traveled-in-My-Blood/Haley-Cohen-Gilliland/9781668017142
Haley Cohen Gilliland joined us on this episode of Historias Unknown to discuss her journey with this amazing book.
If you have topic suggestions, feel free to email Historiasunknownpodcast@gmail.com or use the contact us form on the website https://www.historiasunknown.com/contact/
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For mothers of pregnant daughters and daughters-in-law, the source of their grief is twofold—the disappearances of their children, and the theft of their grandchildren. A group of fierce grandmothers forms the Abuelas de Plaza de Mayo, dedicated to finding the stolen infants and seeking justice from a nation that betrayed them. At a time when speaking out could mean death, the Abuelas confront military officers and launch protests to reach international diplomats and journalists.
They become detectives, adopting disguises to observe suspected grandchildren, and even work alongside a renowned American scientist to pioneer groundbreaking genetic tests. A Flower Traveled in My Blood is the rarest of nonfiction that reads like a novel and puts your heart in your throat. It is the product of years of extensive archival research and meticulous, original reporting. It marks the arrival of a blazing new talent in narrative journalism. In these pages, a regime tries to terrorize a country, but love prevails. The grandmothers’ stunning stories reveal new truths about memory, identity, and family.
https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/A-Flower-Traveled-in-My-Blood/Haley-Cohen-Gilliland/9781668017142
Haley Cohen Gilliland joined us on this episode of Historias Unknown to discuss her journey with this amazing book.
If you have topic suggestions, feel free to email Historiasunknownpodcast@gmail.com or use the contact us form on the website https://www.historiasunknown.com/contact/
Want ad free episodes? And weekly bonus episodes? Support Historias Unknown on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/HistoriasUnknownPodcast
By joining, you can help Historias Unknown donate 20% funds to charity. This month's donation went to CLEAN, carwash worker center, an org thata has been helping car wash workers who are unable to leave their homes due to increeaing ICE raids in LA country, by providing groceries to over 200 car wash workers. Follow @carwasherxs on instagram
Follow on social media:
Instagram: https : //www.instagram.com/historiasunknown/
Threads: https://www.threads.net/@historiasunknown
Historias Unknown is on YouTube now!
https://youtube.com/@historiasunknown?si=_rmuVXrSQhs5R1bg
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/historias-unknown--6253658/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hi, everyone, This is Carmen and Christina and this is
a study as Unknown, a podcast where we talk about
Latin American history. Sometimes it's horrible and deals with taby
topics like criticism, corruption, and genocide. But more than that,
it's also about resistance, power and community. And today today's
a very special episode, probably the most special. I agree.
(00:28):
I agree. We had the amazing opportunity to talk with
Hailey Cowen kiland the author of the amazing, emotional, powerful,
sad but inspiring book A Flower Traveled in My Blood,
(00:49):
the incredible true story of the grandmothers who fought to
find a stolen generation of children. And if that sounds familiar,
y'all listeners, you will remember that Harman did an episode
on as Susna Yeah Floor, Yeah, when was that? It
was a while ago now, oh, it's from March second,
twenty twenty three, episode thirty two. Whoa a Susena via
(01:12):
Floor and Las mades Maon And so in a way,
it feels like this book was written for us. What
we said in the interview, yes, yes, But first let
me tell you about Haley Cohen Kiloland. She is a
journalist and the director of the Yale Journalism initiative. She's
worked for the Economists. Four of those years that she
(01:33):
worked for the Economists were spent in Buenos Aires and
what she'll say in the interview, but again, this is
where she first heard about Les Madis. Being in Argentina.
Can what an experience, you know, to first learn about
them in country. Yes, she's got a ton of work
published in the New York Times, National Geographic, Bloomberg, Business Week,
(01:54):
Vanity Fair. And yeah, A Flower Traveled in My Blood
is her first book. And what a beautiful, amazing first book.
Five no notes, truly, no, yeah, five out of five.
We recommend this to everyone listening. And again if you
stuck out reading like me, just do the audiobook. The
audiobook is narrated by Alexandra Renoso and she does a
(02:17):
wonderful job. It's a great audiobook and again you'll hear
it in the interview. But it's a book. It's a
nonfiction book, but it's written in a very like storytelling,
storytelling narrative where it's not like, you know, like those
textbook nonfiction book. Yeah, it's not dry like some nonfiction
books tend to be. And those ty their value because
they're very informative, but yeah, like a narrative, historical non fiction.
(02:40):
It's one of my favorite accessible Yes, yeah, because some
of us are dumb like me and more, and we
need it to be written in this way. Remember, we
share one brain, so we share one brain. Tell yes.
But like, like again, you'll hear it in an interview.
It feels like this was written for us and our listeners.
You because this is something we've already talked of. You're
(03:03):
gonna like read the book and just bring out the
Bingo card and be like, yep, that was mentioned, that
was mentioned, that was mentioned, Because these are things that
we've already talked a little bit about. But this is
a deep, deep passionate, deep dive. You're gonna like her
passion for this story. It comes through and oh yeah,
you definitely feel it. Yeah. Should I read the synopsis
(03:23):
of the book. Yeah, read the synopsis of the book,
and then we'll just get into the interview. In the
early hours of March twenty fourth, nineteen seventy six, the
streets of Buenos Ais rumbled with tanks as soldiers sees
the presidential palace overthrowing Argentina's leader. To many, it seemed
like just another coup in a continent troubled by them
amid political violence and Cold War attentions. But there was
(03:43):
something darker about this new regime. Quietly supported by the
United States and much of Argentina itself, which was sick
of constant bombings and gun fights, the junta quickly launched
the National Reorganization Process or PROCESSO, a bland name masking
the ruthless campaign to crushed the political left and instill
the country with Western Christian values. The dictatorship, which continued
(04:06):
until nineteen eighty three, decimated a generation. One of the
military's most diabolical acts was the disappearance of hundreds of
pregnant women. Patricia Rosenblitt was among them, a mother and
leftist revolutionary label That's subversive and abducted while eight months
pregnant with her second child. Patricia gave birth in captivity,
making one last call to her mother, Rosa before vanishing.
(04:28):
Her newborn son was also taken, one of the hundreds
giving to police, military families and dictatorship supporters, while their
biological parents were secretly executed and their bodies disposed of.
For Rosa and the other mothers in her same situation,
the loss was unimaginable. Their only solace was the hope
that their grandchildren were still alive. United by this faith,
(04:51):
a group of fears grandmothers formed the Al Mayo, dedicated
to finding the stolen children and seeking justice from a
nation that betrayed them. A flower toowel that my blood
is Rosa and Yebuela's extraordinary story told by journalists with
unique access, with authority and compassion. Hailey Cohen Gillilan brings
this tell to life, tracing the lives of Patricia Rosa
(05:12):
and her stolen grandson, Guillemo Asbelas. Transformed into detectives, they
confront military officers, sift through government documents, assume eliasis to
see suspected grandchildren, and even pioneer a groundbreaking genetics test
with an American scientist. A compelling mystery and deeply researched
account of a pivotal era in world history of flower
(05:32):
traveled in My Blood. It takes readers on a journey
of love, resilience, and redemption, revealing new truths about memory, identity,
and family and yes and does it ever? Yes? Does
it ever? So? Yeah, let's get into the interview.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Here.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
We are here today with Haley Cohen Gilliland, the author
of A Flower Traveled in My Blood. And before we
get into any questions, I have to say, this feels
like he wrote this for us, because specifically, yeah, me
and Carmen and our listeners, because I was telling Carmen like, well,
(06:08):
and we said this so many times, but anytime we
talk about any history that's outside of like because we're
in Mexican American but also Salvadorian. But there was so
much that we had to like go and seek and
it wasn't until we started this podcast that we just
didn't know happened, including as the Sinabi Yeah floor, Carmen
did an episode about her, and then the book she
read for episode is in your sources as well. I
(06:30):
was so excited when I saw that. I was like,
I read this too. She sent me a screenshots us. Yeah,
it feels like he wrote this for us.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
I've honored. Yeah I did.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
And first, all right, well, thank you so much for
having me, and I'm thrilled to be here and excited
to chat with you guys.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yes we have we have so many questions and we
don't have a lot of time, and like I was
just saying, right now, We first came across the story
of Las aguel the La de Mayo and as Madras
because Carmen did an episode on assusin Abia floor, and
it feels like we got so many comments in ourselves.
We kept saying this to each other, but like, how
do how do we not know about this? And it's like,
(07:14):
if you're not looking for this information, it's not it
doesn't seem like unless you're in Athina. Maybe it just
doesn't seem like it's very well known. So how did
you come across Las Aguilas and Las Madras and all
of this?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well, I would say that premise was exactly what motivated
me to write the book, This idea of oh my gosh,
I cannot believe that these events happened, that they happened
so recently, and that I had no idea about them.
But to backtrack, the way that I learned this story
was I moved to Argentina in twenty eleven, at first
(07:49):
on a research fellowship that then morphed into working as
a foreign correspondent for four years in Argentina. And I
moved down with a little bit of a background knowledge
in the dictatorleadership. I knew the basic outlines of what
had happened, that the military had disappeared tens of thousands
of Argentines for having leftist beliefs. But I had never
(08:09):
heard that among the people disappeared by the regime were
hundreds of pregnant women and that their babies had been
stolen from them, and then those women had been quietly
killed or disappeared, as I'm sure your listeners are familiar with,
Argentina turned that into a transitive verb, and these babies
(08:30):
were oftentimes placed with military and police families to be
raised under false identities. And I became completely obsessed with
the boileas de place amacho, who were this incredible group
of grandmothers that banded together to find those stolen babies
their grandchildren. And you know, I lived in Argentina for
four years, and I got lulled into this sense that
(08:52):
everybody already knew this story. So while I was living there,
it didn't occur to me to write this book. And
then I came back to the United States and the
story had stayed with me, And actually, when I got
pregnant myself for the first time, it came flooding back
in a really visceral way, and I started talking to
friends about it.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
And I was shocked.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I mean, I studied history in college, many of my
friends did, and most of them had no idea that
this had happened. And so that's a little bit of
the backstory of both how I learned this story and
why I ultimately felt so determined to write this book.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, because I think other than your book, there's like
maybe one other in English, and that's it about them,
and it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Yeah, So that was shocking to me.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
The other book in English is a book called Searching
for Life by Rita Arditi, and it's wonderful. She was
an Argentine academic that then worked in the States for
many years, and I owe so much to her because
she actually donated while her life partner, Estelle Rida, died
of cancer sadly many years ag and her partner Stell
(10:01):
donated all of her interviews with the Abuelas. So by
the time I started working on this project, it was
twenty twenty one and many of the Ablas had passed away,
but I had this treasure trove of archival interviews that
Rita had done and Estelle had donated to be available
to all researchers. So you know, I kind of this
(10:22):
book was written very much. I don't want to say
on the shoulders, because I don't know if you could
be written on the shoulders of I'm so grateful to
Rita for writing that book and for the research that
she did and put into it. But yes, the only
other book in English about the Wellas.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
And there's so many Maddis and Abelas that you could
have focused on, and it's such a long, encompassing story
as well. Also, we thought it was amazing how you
were able to meet and speak to Rosa. How did
you decide to focus on her?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, as you said, I mean, all of the Wellas
are absolutely incredible, and I could have written an entire
book about each and every one of them, So figuring
out where to focus was probably the greatest challenge. But
I did feel very committed to the idea that the
story be framed through the experience of one family, because
(11:18):
even though the events in this book are for many
of us, thank Goodness, very hard to relate to, everyone
can relate to being a part of a family, and
I felt that the closer I could get to one
family's experience, the more the reader would be able to
really understand and immerse in the historical events, you know,
(11:38):
really connect with what had happened.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
And from the beginning of my research.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I just was blown away by Rosa. She is such
a maverick. She's hilarious, she's brutally honest in the best way.
She was a first generation Argentine. Her parents had emigrated
to Argentina to escape the pogroms. They were Jews from
Eastern Europe, and they had become kind of successful ranchers.
(12:04):
But Rosa had always had grand ambitions of living in
a city, and so she trained to become an obstetrician
at the very young age of fifteen.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
It's so crazy, I thought, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And you know, even at a time when Argentine women
generally did not work after getting married, if they were
able to stop working, they were you know, middle class,
upper middle class. She continued working as an obstetrician even
after she got married to her husband and they had
their first and only daughter, Patricia, and Patricia was their
(12:37):
only child, as I mentioned, and they really poured everything
into her, you know, they got her every type of lesson,
imaginable ping pong, swimming art, They sent her to kind.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Of Jewish school on the weekends.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
And in nineteen seventy eight, Patricia, their only child, was
abducted by the military as part of this much larger
purge of people that the military had deemed subversive. And
this was a I put that in quotes, this is
a very very wide definition of what a subversive person was.
(13:11):
But Rosa, you know, immediately threw herself into trying to
find Patricia and her unborn grandchild, because Patricia was eight
months pregnant at the time, and after a month or
so was connected with the Abellas and was a central
figure in the Abllis movement for decades. She just retired
a couple of years ago at the age of one
hundred and two. I was about to turn one hundred
(13:35):
and six in a couple of days.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
I don't know, crazy, she is still.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Alive, and she just you know, she's spunky, she's plucky,
she doesn't mince words, and you know, I think as
a storyteller of nonfiction, the fact that she is so
committed to the truth was very appealing.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
And vote of hers where she says throughout her like
testimonies and even when she was talking to you, where
she's like, I've never like I always say the truth.
That's a perfect person really to have been like the
main subjects of your book.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Absolutely, And she fought for truth for you know, has
fought for truth for decades. But yeah, I think my
favorite quote of hers and I and the I believe
it was the author's note, but it's end one of
the sections with this. But she said during our interview,
you know, I always tell my story exactly as it is,
(14:33):
the truth before everything, And for me, that really set
the tone for the project because having read the book,
you understand, like there are some episodes in the book
that are much more difficult to write about, and not
everything works out in a way that can be tied
up in.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
A tidy bow.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
But her commitment to the truth and to telling the
hard parts as well as you know, the triumphs, I
think was really really empowering for me, and.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
In a way that makes her and her family even
better subjects of the book than like a happy reunion story,
because the truth was that it was so complicated for
so many of the children that were later found, and
like the it wasn't all like for the people that
it was beautiful that was beautiful, but that's just not
(15:27):
the reality. And so seeing the struggle, especially with Guillermo
and his sister, and just seeing and then there's other people,
but just like how hard that is for them, Like
that's it was again so emotional to read.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think it felt very important for
me to focus on one of the more complicated cases, because,
as you alluded to, there were some Cinderella stories, some
instances in which grandmothers found their grandchildren and immediately they
became incredibly close.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
They were calling each.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Other on the phone every day, they were blending their families,
where you know, the adoptive family that had raised the
child accepted the biological family and vice versa, and everything
was beautiful from the start. But I think, you know,
this is a story about a crime committed by the state,
(16:25):
and that crime has reverberated throughout generations and it has
effects that continue to today, and I think it was
really important to do justice to that, but also to
show that this was one of the most surprising things
to me. There are so many very fraught cases like
Giermo's where grandchildren did not necessarily want to be found,
(16:50):
struggled with their new identities when they were found, but
ultimately almost all of them end up coming around and
accepting their biol logical family, embracing the Abuelas and the
Aballas movement. So there's this idea of the truth as
an invincible force that ultimately wittens. It's like, you know,
(17:13):
like water, you can't you know, you can't resist it
forever and ultimately it prevails. So I think, you know,
focusing on a case that did have complications was very
important to me.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
It made it for like a whole better balance and
picture of everything. It also reminds me of and we
brought these questions down and we're not even looking at them.
But we did another episode Carmen did on Guatemala and
what was Chile? Right, they both had very similar cases
during the dictatorship where children were taken, but and it
(17:48):
was different because they were sent out to other countries,
like what was the one in Chile where a lot
of them ended up like somewhere in Europe. It was
somewhere in Europe, I don't remember, yeah, hear anymore. So
that was very very different in the case of Aarganthina,
where they ended up with the very people that were
doing these crimes against the parents, and that was that
was mind blowing.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I know, it's wild.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
A really amazing book about the Guatemalan situation was Until
I Find You by Rachel Nolan.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
I don't know if you've read it or had her on, but.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I'm going to write that down. Yeah, I know immediately.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
It's a wonderful book.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I think it was a Politzer finalist either this year
or last year, you know, ritually deserved, but yeah, I mean,
I think the Argentine military was very intertwined with the
Argentine Catholic Church, and.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
That was another crazy thing to read. We were because
we were screenshining and texting each other the whole time,
and we were like, look at this, We're like, that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
So, at least in Argentina, there was a sense among
the military that they were doing something noble by stealing
these babies, because in their view, they were severing the
babies from their quote unquote subversive families and bringing them
up with the correct Argentine values. And so there's almost
(19:12):
a religious undertone to it, and that was the justification.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
That reminds me of I think it was Videla when
he was testifying. I don't remem if it was him
or another high official, but they said something like to
justify everything they did. They were like, well God was
on my side or something like that, and I was
just like.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I think he said Nuka la mano yad never never
let go of my hand. Yeah, absolutely wild and Vidella
was so mad.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, it's a lot to process.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
It's so, it's so, I mean, it's this is so
dark and horrible, but like the Latin American distittorship, like
it was almost every Latin American country during this time
period had very similar things happening. But it's so interesting
to see the role of the church in each of
these countries because like Chile it was very similar where
the Catholic Church was very much behind Pinochet. But then
(20:12):
you have other places like Esador where they had this
growth of liberation theology and then like Oscatro metto and
what happened to him and the Catholic like nuns and
being targeted. So it's just it's so, I don't want
to say interesting because it feels wrong, but it's like
it's strange to see these very same similar situations where
(20:33):
right wing to tator ships get into power, but then
how they happen differently in all these places, but a
lot of them have all these scary similarities.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Absolutely. Yeah, that was.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Once again, as you said, it's not interesting because it's
too horrible to be interesting. Yeah, a rabbit hole that
I definitely went down when researching this book, because, for instance,
in Brazil, the mill terry was initially supported by the
Catholic Church, but then the Catholic Church was a huge
(21:06):
supporter of human rights organizations that sprouted in opposition to
the military and tried to you know, uncover the crimes
of the military there and why that happened in certain
places and not not other countries. Is you know something
that's something something interesting.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Yeah, yeah, it is ripe for exploration and research.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yes. Yes. Another thing we kept doing when we were
reading was like, oh, Operation Condor mentioned, because we did
like five episodes on Chile, and then like just a
bunch of little things that have been coming up in
other countries. We're like, oh, this got mentioned, this got mentioned.
So that was not fun but interesting.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
When I saw you, the most recent episode was about
the Chicago Boys, and that was interesting to me because
Javier Malay, who's the current President of Argentina.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
We we wanted to bring this up.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Yeah, maybe we saved that for later.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
But you know, he has a dog named after a
cloned dog named after Milton Friedman.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
So yeah, when Carmen got to that party, she texted
me and she was like, guess who his favorite economist was?
And immediately I was like, Milton Friedman.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
We have this bingo card where we write things like
the CIA is there, Like what else is there? A
cup happened, and like we need to add operation condor
to that bingo card, and like we could have easily
filled out this bingo card while reading this book. It
was insane to me. Yeah, but we did have actual questions.
Let me go back to our document. We have noticed
(22:51):
within our own family history with and the Civil War
there that there's this this urge to move on, to
forget the past and focus on the future. How does
the release of your book challenge the sentiment because it's
very much not forgetting the past right.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
And I think I can't take credit for that mission
because I just wrote about a group of incredibly dogged
and relentless women for whom that was the core of
their mission. So the Abells and Madras are responsible for
the main principles that they highlight as underpinning their missions
(23:30):
are truth, justice, and memory. And you know, truth because
the military tried to obscure and twist the crimes that
it committed. Memory because the military disappeared tens of thousands
of people, and only through memory can those people be honored, because,
(23:51):
in the case of the Grand Majority, the location of
their remains is unknown. You know, their families don't have
a place to mourn or grieve. They don't know how
they died, they don't know why, they don't know when,
and so it's really through memory that those people can,
both their families and the victims of the dictatorship can
(24:15):
strive for some sort of peace, you know.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
And then justice.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Of course, Argentina, as you mentioned, has swung, like El Salvador,
between these dueling impulses of fighting for justice and this
idea that in order for the country to heal and
move forward, the country has to ignore the past and pardon,
(24:40):
you know, the criminals that committed crimes during the dictatorship
in the name of quote unquote national reconciliation, and the
Abelus in particular, fought vehemently against this and found all
these loopholes that allowed dictatorship era criminals to be prosecuted
even when they were all these impunity laws shielding them.
(25:03):
And they are responsible for the fact that Vidella ultimately
died in prison in twenty thirteen because they won a
case that showed that he masterminded and oversaw a campaign
of systematic baby theft. So yeah, I mean, I think
the Abolis and Madras are the ones who have really
(25:24):
you know, pioneered, made sure that truth, memory and justice
remain kind of central to Argentine culture. And even as
there's a president in office that is currently pushing against
them and has clashed really fiercely with the Ablis and Madres,
that those tenants stay alive and are not vanquished.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
And the case with that, Hintina, it's so rare because
like again, dictators in Latin America, a lot of them
who went to the School of Americas that doesn'ts right,
and like so few of them actually face any semblance
of justice. And so for that to have happened with
ride La and for these amazing strong women who who
(26:10):
I mean, like, who wants to dedicate their life to this?
I don't think anyone is seeking to be become like
an activist. They were forced upon. It was forced on them,
and then after that they really had like no choice,
I feel because I know, I feel like a lot
of people think, well, like how did they keep going?
But like they had to. It was like and it
just makes me, I mean, it makes me think of
(26:31):
and this makes me so sad, but it makes me
think of like today where in El Salvador there's mothers
looking for their kids in the prisons. Right now in
Mexico there's mothers looking for their children who were either
subject to you know, the cartel violence or state violence,
one or the other. So it's like, none of these
(26:53):
people ever want to do these things, like they were
forced to do it, and they did it. I don't know,
they did it, so I'm going to cry. It was again,
such an amazing important book, like oh my god. And
that's why. Yeah, when I first learned about as Susanna
and Las Mades and Azabuelas, I was not surprised to
see that women, mothers and grandmothers were at the forefront
(27:16):
of this fight for justice, because that's the case I
think often.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I was very struck by that because it raised the
question for me of where were the men. I mean,
surely the fathers and grandfathers, where every bit is distraught
about the shattering of their families. But there were a
couple of explanations that the Wells themselves offer for why
(27:42):
the Madras movement and the Weals movement were so dominated
by women. And I'll go from kind of most practical
to most emotional. But the one of the practical explanations
was that, you know, Argentina in the nineteen seventies was
still a traditional society that was governed by traditional gender roles,
(28:03):
and so the men had to keep working, and many
of the women were not working. They were focused on
their families, and so they were they took up the
mantle of searching, you know, for their families, and that
became their full time job. The second reason, which I
found fascinating was, you know, the Wellis recognized that as
(28:28):
middle aged and elderly women, as grandmothers, they were going
to be overlooked and underestimated, and they really used that
to their advantage, and they leaned into that perception. So
they would do these surreptitious meetings at cafes and they
would bring knitting needles live beside their coffee cups. Yeah,
(28:50):
their sneakiness and they were you know, they could do
really risky detective work and smuggle sensitive documents back into
the country crumpled up into chocolate wrappers because nobody in
the security checkpoint lines was going to look at them
too closely. They were neatly dressed grandmothers, and they realized
(29:13):
that their husbands and sons, you know, might be more
obvious targets for the regime, and it might be riskier
for them to do some of those things. The last
one is the most emotional, and there were several ab
Weellers that basically said, there's something and now I'm probably
gonna cry, Like there's something about being a mom and
(29:34):
there's something like they talked about how some of their
husbands when their children were taken, you know, kind of
crumbled and like couldn't cope, and some of them died.
Their wives said basically like they had died of heartbreak,
but they just like couldn't go on.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
And for the Abelus, that pain kind of.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Formed and calcified into determination to find out what happened
to their children and to find their grandchildren. And it was,
as you said, like they had to it was a compulsion.
There was something primal that they could not fight. And
you know, I think that that was a big part
(30:20):
of why it was mothers, mothers and grandmothers. You know.
I think there's just something completely fierce and special about
a maternal relationship, not that there isn't about a paternal too,
but in the Well's own words, it was a different
force that kind of drove them forward.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Yes, yes, again, it reminds me of like every is it.
I forgot the days that the first of me there's
a day in like Latin America where women go out
in march and these are almost all women, and you
can see find them. It's a singular man usually in
the crowd, which and they're always embraced by the women.
But there's a reason, I think not to discount like
(31:05):
men and like why are the men because again it's
I think a lot of the same reasons probably still
apply to women today in these marches too, But it's
just it's so I don't know, while to see like
the similarities between all these like struggles that continue sadly today.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yeah, absolutely, I wish that this were you know, only
in history, but as we know, there are lots of
common resonances in today's world.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, and it was very unfortunate to read about Malay
and him trying to rewrite history basically and trying to say,
you know, the military also suffered and we need to
talk about the wrongdoing to the military. I was like,
excuse me.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, I mean so, since Malay has taken office in
the fall of twenty twenty three, he has clashed just
constantly with the Abuls and other human rights groups over
these kind of this campaign of historical revisionism and also
of just massive spending cuts that have affected the ab
(32:06):
wellis and so some of the organizations. There were some
government bodies that supported the Grandmother's work and those have
been either cut or you know, really downsized in a
way that's very painful.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
And then there's an.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Institution that really underpins the Grandmother's mission called the Banco Nneticos.
It's a national genetics bank where since the late nineteen eighties,
the grandmothers have stored their genetic data so that even
if they passed away, their biological families might still be
connected to their grandchildren. And that is now also under
(32:44):
threat in Malays Argentina. So it's it's a very tense time.
But you know, the ab Wellas have never backed down
from from a fight.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
So what an amazing group of women. And also doctor
King I wanted to I quickly mentioned that they found
like a like such a champion for their cause, like
that was like the perfect person to have like been
connected to them, and just reading about her too, I
also cried a lot of crime.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, yes, I mean she is absolutely incredible. She is
iconic and you know, at this point world famous for
having discovered the BRCA one gene. But she was just
such a perfect person to work on this project. She
had a history of human rights activism, She had been
involved in anti Vietnam war protests. She had lived in
(33:37):
Chile during the nineteen seventy three. I was shocked, and
so she had experienced up close the effects of dictatorship
and she knew, you know, the horrible impact that that
can have in a place. And then lastly, her daughter
was the exact same age as the grandchildren that dio
Wellis were seeking. And so she did not waiver for
(34:00):
moment when you know, when asked if she would work
on this project for the Oballis despite having a very
very full work life and family life, as you can imagine.
But it really was just the perfect alchemy. And together
they pioneered new forms of genetic testing.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
And I say this in the in the.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
End of the book, but you know, they really are
responsible for pioneering genetic genealogy, which is the combination of
drawing traditional genealogical methods like drawing family trees and then
genetic testing. And that's a technique that's now widely used
by law enforcement agencies. So like that was how the
(34:42):
Golden State killer was convicted, and that all traces back
to the Wellis and Mary Claire King. Yes, yes, yeah,
I was really honored to get to know doctor King.
She I spent a lot of time with her for
this project and she also is and I hope this
came across on the page, but she has boundless energy.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
She is now I think seventy eight.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
But just like we would have these marathon interviews, I
think the longest one we had was nine hours.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Wow. I read that, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Into a puddle, you know, exhaustion, and I swear she
was ready to, you know, keep talking for another another
twelve hours. She's truly incredible. So I feel honored to
have gotten to learn from her.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Amazing, amazing it did come across. I love that she
like whenever a request from the I would as would
come in, Like once they had their system going, they
said everything aside and like her team was fighting to
who was working on it, and that's just I don't know.
That's like not only was she a chapping for them,
but you could tell that she fostered that within the
(35:53):
people that were in her own team for them to
be like as busy as they were to just drop
everything like no, I want to do this, I want
to do this. That's amazing, like amazing.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
It wasn't.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
I got to talk to several of the I never
know the correct scientific term, but I guess they were
doctor students who had worked with her on this project,
and a couple of them got very emotional remembering their
work on this project.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I'm sure they were so proud, So.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yes, they it was wonderful to get to talk to
them and reconstruct them that. I also loved seeing the
abell Us fax as to doctor King, because the Wills
had this way of communicating that did not let people
off the hook even a little. So it's like they
would frame things as like, you know, we'll we'll expect
(36:44):
to get your response, uh, you know, as soon as possible.
And they are all these options. Anyone an option. But
they were lovely little grandmothers, so nobody could begrudge them.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
But I loved it.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
They just they were not going to take no or
maybe or in a little bit as answers from anyone,
even world renowned geneticists who are helping learn about cancer.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Right, Oh my gosh, yeah, amazing. Well we're nearing the
and here one last question we had here. Something that
really stood out was the theme of identity and the
differences between how the Last thought of identity versus their
own critics. And one question you wrote about was to
(37:32):
whom does identity belong, whether it's the sole property of
an individual, or if the family and society have a
right to truth. Can you talk about how the Able
Last handled these kinds of questions and criticisms over their work.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yes, so that was a really thorny question and a
very existential one. But essentially, the Abuelas always pushed for
compulsory DNA testing, and this became more relevant, especially once
the people that they were looking for became legal adults
(38:08):
who could make their own decisions about whether to seek
genetic testing or not. And ultimately they made progress on
having compulsory DNA testing passed into law, but the optics
were sometimes quite difficult for them because the courts, if
a person resisted coming in and giving blood, could order
(38:31):
these raids in which a person's personal belongings like toothbrushes
or hair brushes, could be taken from them for testing.
And there were a couple of high profile instances of this.
In one case, two people who were the adoptive children
of a very high profile and rich and famous media mogul,
(38:53):
whom Leombellas believed were actually the children of Decipotacillos, were
caught up in this high speed, very dramatic, very mediatic
raid at this media Locals mansion outside of Buenos Aires.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
And you know, there were.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
A lot of people, including some allies of the Aballis,
who argued that you can't violate someone's human rights in
the name of human rights, and the Aballas argued back,
you know, a crime is a crime, whether it was
committed yesterday or thirty or forty years ago, and the
(39:31):
state is duty bound to investigate crimes and in this case,
especially a crime in which something as big as someone's
identity has been has been stolen, and you know, these
tensions kind of continue continue to play out, but they
were especially heated around a couple of these particular cases
(39:53):
where there was resistance on the part of the suspected
the suspect grandchildren. And I went into one case that
was ended up in the same way that Gier most
case did with the grandchild ultimately coming around to his identity.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
But there was Ezekiel. Ezekiel, Oh my god, his journey.
What an emotional ride to go through reading his journey,
him replacing the toothbrush in case there was a raid,
but then ultimately in the end coming around, because in
the end, I think it's a human desire to figure
(40:34):
out where you're really from, who you really came from.
And in the end, I mean, yeah, that was beautiful
that he came around. And like you said in the book,
the majority did come around, even if it took decades.
And then his grandmother eventually like not even like saying like, oh,
(40:54):
I don't even like she didn't fallow him for coming
taking so long to come around, just that he came around.
In the end. I was crying, Yeah, tears.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
He describes his grandmother, who unfortunately has passed away, but
as a being that is as close to an angel
as you can possibly come. Like, she really did not
begrudge him. He fought for ten years. You know, they
could have had ten years to get to.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
That.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
He resisted, and she didn't, you know, she didn't resent
him for it or hold it against him, and she
just was grateful for this.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
She is she the one who was comforting his adoptive mother. Yeah,
I was like, she had to be an angel of
a person because wow, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Right, and especially I mean Ezekiel came from a family
that he was taken by a family that did have
direct ties to the dictatorship and his appropriated father actually
you know, went on the run for twenty years and
was trying to evade justice for twenty years. But he
(42:02):
was an intelligence officer in the Air Force, and so
you know, there were situations where the Abelas grandchildren were
adopted by families who didn't know the origins of the
children that they were raising, but this was not one
of those cases. So the fact that Nelly embraced, you know,
Ezekiel's appropriate mother like that takes on new new power
(42:26):
of forgiveness and compassion.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yes, yes, but yeah, we don't want to take up
too much of your time. So that was I think
the last question that we had on our file. But
is there I mean, I think our again, our readers
are just like this book was made for them. They will,
they really will. But in case there's anyone listening that, like,
(42:50):
for some reason needs to be convinced, I don't. I
don't know why, like for some reason needs to be
convinced to read your book, what would you tell them?
Speaker 3 (42:58):
I think that.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
I was so fascinated by this history, and I think
your readers and listeners are clearly people who have a
natural interest in Latin American history, in obscure areas of
Latin American history. But it also felt very important to
me because this is such difficult subject matter, and because
(43:23):
the book really covers such a wide swath of time,
you know, I would say fifty sixty years. It was
very important for me to write this in a narrative
way that reads almost like a novel.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Everything really does as you've seen.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Because you looked at the source notes, but everything is documented,
everything is fact checked. I was really you know, privileged
to get to work with multiple fact checkers. I have
a background in fact checking if there are multiple stories
that didn't add up, like I mentioned that in the endnotes,
and try to be transparent about that. So this is
(44:01):
all you know, based on fact and research. But I
also just think I tried to write it in a
way that brings the emotion through of the story and
of this family and of this movement and of this country.
And so you know, even if you're not immediately drawn
to this period in history or to Argentina, I would
(44:22):
hope that just as a reading experience, you know, you
would still be kind of drawn through to the end.
And then the other thing I would say is I
started working on this book in twenty twenty one, and
there were parallels that I could draw to today and
to home, but they were not nearly as strong as
(44:45):
the parallels that can be drawn today. And I do
think that this book holds very important lessons that all
of us should be paying attention to about what happens
when a government puts it agenda before the rule of law,
and also about how ordinary citizens can band together and
(45:10):
stand up in the instance that things get really extreme.
And so those would be my two arguments for why
someone should.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
Pick up this book.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Yes, yes, yes too, all of that agree with ourthing. Yes,
and thank you so much for I know we like scheduled.
We were like going back and forth because we're so
bad at checking our email. But I'm so glad that
this happened. This has been such a joy doing this.
It really has been wonderful for me.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
And yeah, I'm excited to continue listening to the show.
And yeah, I hope that we can all stay in touch.
This is really great and I'm grateful for the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yes, thank you so much and everyone else listening. If
you haven't gotten the book, you can get a wherever
books are sold, your library even honestly anywhere everywhere. Look
for it immediately, like right now.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Also, the audio version is so I have not listened
to the whole audio.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
It's great. It's great. I actually listened. I went and
got more credits on Libro FM, so I could also
listen to the audiobook because I read so so.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Yeah, it's narrated by Alejandre Renoso who's an amazing voice actress,
and it.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Was so good. So yeah, that's we need to listen
to it. You do need to listen to it too.
I highly recommend it in that way if you're a
slow reader like me.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Oh, thanks much, Carmon and Christina. I really appreciate it.
And yeah, I hope to stay in touch with both
of you.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yes, thank you. What a discussion that was. I feel
rejuvenated after talking with it, and I was like, we
have to I'm like, at some point I have to
stop talking, but I couldn't. Yeah, And there was so
much stuff that we didn't have the time to touch
on because there's so much in this book, Like said herself,
(47:02):
it compasses like what sixty year period time span, And
there's so much I didn't know about at Hintina, even
with the background knowledge that we have from you know,
the podcast, Yeah, and having knowledge of Asusna, we have
Loona what happened to her of Operation Condor of the Disappeared,
(47:30):
but still there's so much to learn. Yeah, and even
if you listen, like you know, he listens to that
full interview, and yes, we talked about a lot that
happens in the book. But even then, this isn't even
like touching that you you were missing so much, so
much just going out it's a story now yeah, Ordrey
(47:51):
get it somewhere us US. But yeah, what what an
amazing story, an amazing person everything. Yeah, I am truly
I said this about Sena, Florida when we did that episode,
and I was like, I am, I was truly changed
(48:12):
by learning about Sussenna and her story and and a
part of this book talks about Susanna and what happened
to her. But it's like even even more because it's
all that well, as you know, even though it focuses
on Rosa, there's still a lot that is talked about
(48:34):
the others and their fighting spirit and they were they
were just amazing, they really were, And we could go
on and about them. We won't, right right, Yeah, yeah,
but we could. But yeah, we hope that this was first.
We hope that everyone goes and reads this book. Yeah,
(48:56):
and then also we hope that this was one list
it started. Unknown Free Bye Bye estorias Anown is produced
by Carmen and Christina, Researched by Carmen and Christina, edited
by Christina. You can find sources for every episode at
Astoria's unknown dot com and in our show notes. Creating
the podcast has a lot of work, so if you
(49:17):
want to help us out financially, you can do so
by supporting us on Patreon at patreon dot com. Slash
Studied as an Own Podcast
Hi, everyone, This is Carmen and Christina and this is
a study as Unknown, a podcast where we talk about
Latin American history. Sometimes it's horrible and deals with taby
topics like criticism, corruption, and genocide. But more than that,
it's also about resistance, power and community. And today today's
a very special episode, probably the most special. I agree.
(00:28):
I agree. We had the amazing opportunity to talk with
Hailey Cowen kiland the author of the amazing, emotional, powerful,
sad but inspiring book A Flower Traveled in My Blood,
(00:49):
the incredible true story of the grandmothers who fought to
find a stolen generation of children. And if that sounds familiar,
y'all listeners, you will remember that Harman did an episode
on as Susna Yeah Floor, Yeah, when was that? It
was a while ago now, oh, it's from March second,
twenty twenty three, episode thirty two. Whoa a Susena via
(01:12):
Floor and Las mades Maon And so in a way,
it feels like this book was written for us. What
we said in the interview, yes, yes, But first let
me tell you about Haley Cohen Kiloland. She is a
journalist and the director of the Yale Journalism initiative. She's
worked for the Economists. Four of those years that she
(01:33):
worked for the Economists were spent in Buenos Aires and
what she'll say in the interview, but again, this is
where she first heard about Les Madis. Being in Argentina.
Can what an experience, you know, to first learn about
them in country. Yes, she's got a ton of work
published in the New York Times, National Geographic, Bloomberg, Business Week,
(01:54):
Vanity Fair. And yeah, A Flower Traveled in My Blood
is her first book. And what a beautiful, amazing first book.
Five no notes, truly, no, yeah, five out of five.
We recommend this to everyone listening. And again if you
stuck out reading like me, just do the audiobook. The
audiobook is narrated by Alexandra Renoso and she does a
(02:17):
wonderful job. It's a great audiobook and again you'll hear
it in the interview. But it's a book. It's a
nonfiction book, but it's written in a very like storytelling,
storytelling narrative where it's not like, you know, like those
textbook nonfiction book. Yeah, it's not dry like some nonfiction
books tend to be. And those ty their value because
they're very informative, but yeah, like a narrative, historical non fiction.
(02:40):
It's one of my favorite accessible Yes, yeah, because some
of us are dumb like me and more, and we
need it to be written in this way. Remember, we
share one brain, so we share one brain. Tell yes.
But like, like again, you'll hear it in an interview.
It feels like this was written for us and our listeners.
You because this is something we've already talked of. You're
(03:03):
gonna like read the book and just bring out the
Bingo card and be like, yep, that was mentioned, that
was mentioned, that was mentioned, Because these are things that
we've already talked a little bit about. But this is
a deep, deep passionate, deep dive. You're gonna like her
passion for this story. It comes through and oh yeah,
you definitely feel it. Yeah. Should I read the synopsis
(03:23):
of the book. Yeah, read the synopsis of the book,
and then we'll just get into the interview. In the
early hours of March twenty fourth, nineteen seventy six, the
streets of Buenos Ais rumbled with tanks as soldiers sees
the presidential palace overthrowing Argentina's leader. To many, it seemed
like just another coup in a continent troubled by them
amid political violence and Cold War attentions. But there was
(03:43):
something darker about this new regime. Quietly supported by the
United States and much of Argentina itself, which was sick
of constant bombings and gun fights, the junta quickly launched
the National Reorganization Process or PROCESSO, a bland name masking
the ruthless campaign to crushed the political left and instill
the country with Western Christian values. The dictatorship, which continued
(04:06):
until nineteen eighty three, decimated a generation. One of the
military's most diabolical acts was the disappearance of hundreds of
pregnant women. Patricia Rosenblitt was among them, a mother and
leftist revolutionary label That's subversive and abducted while eight months
pregnant with her second child. Patricia gave birth in captivity,
making one last call to her mother, Rosa before vanishing.
(04:28):
Her newborn son was also taken, one of the hundreds
giving to police, military families and dictatorship supporters, while their
biological parents were secretly executed and their bodies disposed of.
For Rosa and the other mothers in her same situation,
the loss was unimaginable. Their only solace was the hope
that their grandchildren were still alive. United by this faith,
(04:51):
a group of fears grandmothers formed the Al Mayo, dedicated
to finding the stolen children and seeking justice from a
nation that betrayed them. A flower toowel that my blood
is Rosa and Yebuela's extraordinary story told by journalists with
unique access, with authority and compassion. Hailey Cohen Gillilan brings
this tell to life, tracing the lives of Patricia Rosa
(05:12):
and her stolen grandson, Guillemo Asbelas. Transformed into detectives, they
confront military officers, sift through government documents, assume eliasis to
see suspected grandchildren, and even pioneer a groundbreaking genetics test
with an American scientist. A compelling mystery and deeply researched
account of a pivotal era in world history of flower
(05:32):
traveled in My Blood. It takes readers on a journey
of love, resilience, and redemption, revealing new truths about memory, identity,
and family and yes and does it ever? Yes? Does
it ever? So? Yeah, let's get into the interview.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Here.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
We are here today with Haley Cohen Gilliland, the author
of A Flower Traveled in My Blood. And before we
get into any questions, I have to say, this feels
like he wrote this for us, because specifically, yeah, me
and Carmen and our listeners, because I was telling Carmen like, well,
(06:08):
and we said this so many times, but anytime we
talk about any history that's outside of like because we're
in Mexican American but also Salvadorian. But there was so
much that we had to like go and seek and
it wasn't until we started this podcast that we just
didn't know happened, including as the Sinabi Yeah floor, Carmen
did an episode about her, and then the book she
read for episode is in your sources as well. I
(06:30):
was so excited when I saw that. I was like,
I read this too. She sent me a screenshots us. Yeah,
it feels like he wrote this for us.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
I've honored. Yeah I did.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
And first, all right, well, thank you so much for
having me, and I'm thrilled to be here and excited
to chat with you guys.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yes we have we have so many questions and we
don't have a lot of time, and like I was
just saying, right now, We first came across the story
of Las aguel the La de Mayo and as Madras
because Carmen did an episode on assusin Abia floor, and
it feels like we got so many comments in ourselves.
We kept saying this to each other, but like, how
do how do we not know about this? And it's like,
(07:14):
if you're not looking for this information, it's not it
doesn't seem like unless you're in Athina. Maybe it just
doesn't seem like it's very well known. So how did
you come across Las Aguilas and Las Madras and all
of this?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well, I would say that premise was exactly what motivated
me to write the book, This idea of oh my gosh,
I cannot believe that these events happened, that they happened
so recently, and that I had no idea about them.
But to backtrack, the way that I learned this story
was I moved to Argentina in twenty eleven, at first
(07:49):
on a research fellowship that then morphed into working as
a foreign correspondent for four years in Argentina. And I
moved down with a little bit of a background knowledge
in the dictatorleadership. I knew the basic outlines of what
had happened, that the military had disappeared tens of thousands
of Argentines for having leftist beliefs. But I had never
(08:09):
heard that among the people disappeared by the regime were
hundreds of pregnant women and that their babies had been
stolen from them, and then those women had been quietly
killed or disappeared, as I'm sure your listeners are familiar with,
Argentina turned that into a transitive verb, and these babies
(08:30):
were oftentimes placed with military and police families to be
raised under false identities. And I became completely obsessed with
the boileas de place amacho, who were this incredible group
of grandmothers that banded together to find those stolen babies
their grandchildren. And you know, I lived in Argentina for
four years, and I got lulled into this sense that
(08:52):
everybody already knew this story. So while I was living there,
it didn't occur to me to write this book. And
then I came back to the United States and the
story had stayed with me, And actually, when I got
pregnant myself for the first time, it came flooding back
in a really visceral way, and I started talking to
friends about it.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
And I was shocked.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I mean, I studied history in college, many of my
friends did, and most of them had no idea that
this had happened. And so that's a little bit of
the backstory of both how I learned this story and
why I ultimately felt so determined to write this book.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, because I think other than your book, there's like
maybe one other in English, and that's it about them,
and it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Yeah, So that was shocking to me.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
The other book in English is a book called Searching
for Life by Rita Arditi, and it's wonderful. She was
an Argentine academic that then worked in the States for
many years, and I owe so much to her because
she actually donated while her life partner, Estelle Rida, died
of cancer sadly many years ag and her partner Stell
(10:01):
donated all of her interviews with the Abuelas. So by
the time I started working on this project, it was
twenty twenty one and many of the Ablas had passed away,
but I had this treasure trove of archival interviews that
Rita had done and Estelle had donated to be available
to all researchers. So you know, I kind of this
(10:22):
book was written very much. I don't want to say
on the shoulders, because I don't know if you could
be written on the shoulders of I'm so grateful to
Rita for writing that book and for the research that
she did and put into it. But yes, the only
other book in English about the Wellas.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
And there's so many Maddis and Abelas that you could
have focused on, and it's such a long, encompassing story
as well. Also, we thought it was amazing how you
were able to meet and speak to Rosa. How did
you decide to focus on her?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, as you said, I mean, all of the Wellas
are absolutely incredible, and I could have written an entire
book about each and every one of them, So figuring
out where to focus was probably the greatest challenge. But
I did feel very committed to the idea that the
story be framed through the experience of one family, because
(11:18):
even though the events in this book are for many
of us, thank Goodness, very hard to relate to, everyone
can relate to being a part of a family, and
I felt that the closer I could get to one
family's experience, the more the reader would be able to
really understand and immerse in the historical events, you know,
(11:38):
really connect with what had happened.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
And from the beginning of my research.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I just was blown away by Rosa. She is such
a maverick. She's hilarious, she's brutally honest in the best way.
She was a first generation Argentine. Her parents had emigrated
to Argentina to escape the pogroms. They were Jews from
Eastern Europe, and they had become kind of successful ranchers.
(12:04):
But Rosa had always had grand ambitions of living in
a city, and so she trained to become an obstetrician
at the very young age of fifteen.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
It's so crazy, I thought, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And you know, even at a time when Argentine women
generally did not work after getting married, if they were
able to stop working, they were you know, middle class,
upper middle class. She continued working as an obstetrician even
after she got married to her husband and they had
their first and only daughter, Patricia, and Patricia was their
(12:37):
only child, as I mentioned, and they really poured everything
into her, you know, they got her every type of lesson,
imaginable ping pong, swimming art, They sent her to kind.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Of Jewish school on the weekends.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
And in nineteen seventy eight, Patricia, their only child, was
abducted by the military as part of this much larger
purge of people that the military had deemed subversive. And
this was a I put that in quotes, this is
a very very wide definition of what a subversive person was.
(13:11):
But Rosa, you know, immediately threw herself into trying to
find Patricia and her unborn grandchild, because Patricia was eight
months pregnant at the time, and after a month or
so was connected with the Abellas and was a central
figure in the Abllis movement for decades. She just retired
a couple of years ago at the age of one
hundred and two. I was about to turn one hundred
(13:35):
and six in a couple of days.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
I don't know, crazy, she is still.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Alive, and she just you know, she's spunky, she's plucky,
she doesn't mince words, and you know, I think as
a storyteller of nonfiction, the fact that she is so
committed to the truth was very appealing.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
And vote of hers where she says throughout her like
testimonies and even when she was talking to you, where
she's like, I've never like I always say the truth.
That's a perfect person really to have been like the
main subjects of your book.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Absolutely, And she fought for truth for you know, has
fought for truth for decades. But yeah, I think my
favorite quote of hers and I and the I believe
it was the author's note, but it's end one of
the sections with this. But she said during our interview,
you know, I always tell my story exactly as it is,
(14:33):
the truth before everything, And for me, that really set
the tone for the project because having read the book,
you understand, like there are some episodes in the book
that are much more difficult to write about, and not
everything works out in a way that can be tied
up in.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
A tidy bow.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
But her commitment to the truth and to telling the
hard parts as well as you know, the triumphs, I
think was really really empowering for me, and.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
In a way that makes her and her family even
better subjects of the book than like a happy reunion story,
because the truth was that it was so complicated for
so many of the children that were later found, and
like the it wasn't all like for the people that
it was beautiful that was beautiful, but that's just not
(15:27):
the reality. And so seeing the struggle, especially with Guillermo
and his sister, and just seeing and then there's other people,
but just like how hard that is for them, Like
that's it was again so emotional to read.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think it felt very important for
me to focus on one of the more complicated cases, because,
as you alluded to, there were some Cinderella stories, some
instances in which grandmothers found their grandchildren and immediately they
became incredibly close.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
They were calling each.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Other on the phone every day, they were blending their families,
where you know, the adoptive family that had raised the
child accepted the biological family and vice versa, and everything
was beautiful from the start. But I think, you know,
this is a story about a crime committed by the state,
(16:25):
and that crime has reverberated throughout generations and it has
effects that continue to today, and I think it was
really important to do justice to that, but also to
show that this was one of the most surprising things
to me. There are so many very fraught cases like
Giermo's where grandchildren did not necessarily want to be found,
(16:50):
struggled with their new identities when they were found, but
ultimately almost all of them end up coming around and
accepting their biol logical family, embracing the Abuelas and the
Aballas movement. So there's this idea of the truth as
an invincible force that ultimately wittens. It's like, you know,
(17:13):
like water, you can't you know, you can't resist it
forever and ultimately it prevails. So I think, you know,
focusing on a case that did have complications was very
important to me.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
It made it for like a whole better balance and
picture of everything. It also reminds me of and we
brought these questions down and we're not even looking at them.
But we did another episode Carmen did on Guatemala and
what was Chile? Right, they both had very similar cases
during the dictatorship where children were taken, but and it
(17:48):
was different because they were sent out to other countries,
like what was the one in Chile where a lot
of them ended up like somewhere in Europe. It was
somewhere in Europe, I don't remember, yeah, hear anymore. So
that was very very different in the case of Aarganthina,
where they ended up with the very people that were
doing these crimes against the parents, and that was that
was mind blowing.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I know, it's wild.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
A really amazing book about the Guatemalan situation was Until
I Find You by Rachel Nolan.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
I don't know if you've read it or had her on, but.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I'm going to write that down. Yeah, I know immediately.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
It's a wonderful book.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I think it was a Politzer finalist either this year
or last year, you know, ritually deserved, but yeah, I mean,
I think the Argentine military was very intertwined with the
Argentine Catholic Church, and.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
That was another crazy thing to read. We were because
we were screenshining and texting each other the whole time,
and we were like, look at this, We're like, that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
So, at least in Argentina, there was a sense among
the military that they were doing something noble by stealing
these babies, because in their view, they were severing the
babies from their quote unquote subversive families and bringing them
up with the correct Argentine values. And so there's almost
(19:12):
a religious undertone to it, and that was the justification.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
That reminds me of I think it was Videla when
he was testifying. I don't remem if it was him
or another high official, but they said something like to
justify everything they did. They were like, well God was
on my side or something like that, and I was
just like.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I think he said Nuka la mano yad never never
let go of my hand. Yeah, absolutely wild and Vidella
was so mad.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, it's a lot to process.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
It's so, it's so, I mean, it's this is so
dark and horrible, but like the Latin American distittorship, like
it was almost every Latin American country during this time
period had very similar things happening. But it's so interesting
to see the role of the church in each of
these countries because like Chile it was very similar where
the Catholic Church was very much behind Pinochet. But then
(20:12):
you have other places like Esador where they had this
growth of liberation theology and then like Oscatro metto and
what happened to him and the Catholic like nuns and
being targeted. So it's just it's so, I don't want
to say interesting because it feels wrong, but it's like
it's strange to see these very same similar situations where
(20:33):
right wing to tator ships get into power, but then
how they happen differently in all these places, but a
lot of them have all these scary similarities.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Absolutely. Yeah, that was.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Once again, as you said, it's not interesting because it's
too horrible to be interesting. Yeah, a rabbit hole that
I definitely went down when researching this book, because, for instance,
in Brazil, the mill terry was initially supported by the
Catholic Church, but then the Catholic Church was a huge
(21:06):
supporter of human rights organizations that sprouted in opposition to
the military and tried to you know, uncover the crimes
of the military there and why that happened in certain
places and not not other countries. Is you know something
that's something something interesting.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Yeah, yeah, it is ripe for exploration and research.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yes. Yes. Another thing we kept doing when we were
reading was like, oh, Operation Condor mentioned, because we did
like five episodes on Chile, and then like just a
bunch of little things that have been coming up in
other countries. We're like, oh, this got mentioned, this got mentioned.
So that was not fun but interesting.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
When I saw you, the most recent episode was about
the Chicago Boys, and that was interesting to me because
Javier Malay, who's the current President of Argentina.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
We we wanted to bring this up.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Yeah, maybe we saved that for later.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
But you know, he has a dog named after a
cloned dog named after Milton Friedman.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
So yeah, when Carmen got to that party, she texted
me and she was like, guess who his favorite economist was?
And immediately I was like, Milton Friedman.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
We have this bingo card where we write things like
the CIA is there, Like what else is there? A
cup happened, and like we need to add operation condor
to that bingo card, and like we could have easily
filled out this bingo card while reading this book. It
was insane to me. Yeah, but we did have actual questions.
Let me go back to our document. We have noticed
(22:51):
within our own family history with and the Civil War
there that there's this this urge to move on, to
forget the past and focus on the future. How does
the release of your book challenge the sentiment because it's
very much not forgetting the past right.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
And I think I can't take credit for that mission
because I just wrote about a group of incredibly dogged
and relentless women for whom that was the core of
their mission. So the Abells and Madras are responsible for
the main principles that they highlight as underpinning their missions
(23:30):
are truth, justice, and memory. And you know, truth because
the military tried to obscure and twist the crimes that
it committed. Memory because the military disappeared tens of thousands
of people, and only through memory can those people be honored, because,
(23:51):
in the case of the Grand Majority, the location of
their remains is unknown. You know, their families don't have
a place to mourn or grieve. They don't know how
they died, they don't know why, they don't know when,
and so it's really through memory that those people can,
both their families and the victims of the dictatorship can
(24:15):
strive for some sort of peace, you know.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
And then justice.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Of course, Argentina, as you mentioned, has swung, like El Salvador,
between these dueling impulses of fighting for justice and this
idea that in order for the country to heal and
move forward, the country has to ignore the past and pardon,
(24:40):
you know, the criminals that committed crimes during the dictatorship
in the name of quote unquote national reconciliation, and the
Abelus in particular, fought vehemently against this and found all
these loopholes that allowed dictatorship era criminals to be prosecuted
even when they were all these impunity laws shielding them.
(25:03):
And they are responsible for the fact that Vidella ultimately
died in prison in twenty thirteen because they won a
case that showed that he masterminded and oversaw a campaign
of systematic baby theft. So yeah, I mean, I think
the Abolis and Madras are the ones who have really
(25:24):
you know, pioneered, made sure that truth, memory and justice
remain kind of central to Argentine culture. And even as
there's a president in office that is currently pushing against
them and has clashed really fiercely with the Ablis and Madres,
that those tenants stay alive and are not vanquished.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
And the case with that, Hintina, it's so rare because
like again, dictators in Latin America, a lot of them
who went to the School of Americas that doesn'ts right,
and like so few of them actually face any semblance
of justice. And so for that to have happened with
ride La and for these amazing strong women who who
(26:10):
I mean, like, who wants to dedicate their life to this?
I don't think anyone is seeking to be become like
an activist. They were forced upon. It was forced on them,
and then after that they really had like no choice,
I feel because I know, I feel like a lot
of people think, well, like how did they keep going?
But like they had to. It was like and it
just makes me, I mean, it makes me think of
(26:31):
and this makes me so sad, but it makes me
think of like today where in El Salvador there's mothers
looking for their kids in the prisons. Right now in
Mexico there's mothers looking for their children who were either
subject to you know, the cartel violence or state violence,
one or the other. So it's like, none of these
(26:53):
people ever want to do these things, like they were
forced to do it, and they did it. I don't know,
they did it, so I'm going to cry. It was again,
such an amazing important book, like oh my god. And
that's why. Yeah, when I first learned about as Susanna
and Las Mades and Azabuelas, I was not surprised to
see that women, mothers and grandmothers were at the forefront
(27:16):
of this fight for justice, because that's the case I
think often.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I was very struck by that because it raised the
question for me of where were the men. I mean,
surely the fathers and grandfathers, where every bit is distraught
about the shattering of their families. But there were a
couple of explanations that the Wells themselves offer for why
(27:42):
the Madras movement and the Weals movement were so dominated
by women. And I'll go from kind of most practical
to most emotional. But the one of the practical explanations
was that, you know, Argentina in the nineteen seventies was
still a traditional society that was governed by traditional gender roles,
(28:03):
and so the men had to keep working, and many
of the women were not working. They were focused on
their families, and so they were they took up the
mantle of searching, you know, for their families, and that
became their full time job. The second reason, which I
found fascinating was, you know, the Wellis recognized that as
(28:28):
middle aged and elderly women, as grandmothers, they were going
to be overlooked and underestimated, and they really used that
to their advantage, and they leaned into that perception. So
they would do these surreptitious meetings at cafes and they
would bring knitting needles live beside their coffee cups. Yeah,
(28:50):
their sneakiness and they were you know, they could do
really risky detective work and smuggle sensitive documents back into
the country crumpled up into chocolate wrappers because nobody in
the security checkpoint lines was going to look at them
too closely. They were neatly dressed grandmothers, and they realized
(29:13):
that their husbands and sons, you know, might be more
obvious targets for the regime, and it might be riskier
for them to do some of those things. The last
one is the most emotional, and there were several ab
Weellers that basically said, there's something and now I'm probably
gonna cry, Like there's something about being a mom and
(29:34):
there's something like they talked about how some of their
husbands when their children were taken, you know, kind of
crumbled and like couldn't cope, and some of them died.
Their wives said basically like they had died of heartbreak,
but they just like couldn't go on.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
And for the Abelus, that pain kind of.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Formed and calcified into determination to find out what happened
to their children and to find their grandchildren. And it was,
as you said, like they had to it was a compulsion.
There was something primal that they could not fight. And
you know, I think that that was a big part
(30:20):
of why it was mothers, mothers and grandmothers. You know.
I think there's just something completely fierce and special about
a maternal relationship, not that there isn't about a paternal too,
but in the Well's own words, it was a different
force that kind of drove them forward.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Yes, yes, again, it reminds me of like every is it.
I forgot the days that the first of me there's
a day in like Latin America where women go out
in march and these are almost all women, and you
can see find them. It's a singular man usually in
the crowd, which and they're always embraced by the women.
But there's a reason, I think not to discount like
(31:05):
men and like why are the men because again it's
I think a lot of the same reasons probably still
apply to women today in these marches too, But it's
just it's so I don't know, while to see like
the similarities between all these like struggles that continue sadly today.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yeah, absolutely, I wish that this were you know, only
in history, but as we know, there are lots of
common resonances in today's world.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, and it was very unfortunate to read about Malay
and him trying to rewrite history basically and trying to say,
you know, the military also suffered and we need to
talk about the wrongdoing to the military. I was like,
excuse me.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, I mean so, since Malay has taken office in
the fall of twenty twenty three, he has clashed just
constantly with the Abuls and other human rights groups over
these kind of this campaign of historical revisionism and also
of just massive spending cuts that have affected the ab
(32:06):
wellis and so some of the organizations. There were some
government bodies that supported the Grandmother's work and those have
been either cut or you know, really downsized in a
way that's very painful.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
And then there's an.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Institution that really underpins the Grandmother's mission called the Banco Nneticos.
It's a national genetics bank where since the late nineteen eighties,
the grandmothers have stored their genetic data so that even
if they passed away, their biological families might still be
connected to their grandchildren. And that is now also under
(32:44):
threat in Malays Argentina. So it's it's a very tense time.
But you know, the ab Wellas have never backed down
from from a fight.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
So what an amazing group of women. And also doctor
King I wanted to I quickly mentioned that they found
like a like such a champion for their cause, like
that was like the perfect person to have like been
connected to them, and just reading about her too, I
also cried a lot of crime.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, yes, I mean she is absolutely incredible. She is
iconic and you know, at this point world famous for
having discovered the BRCA one gene. But she was just
such a perfect person to work on this project. She
had a history of human rights activism, She had been
involved in anti Vietnam war protests. She had lived in
(33:37):
Chile during the nineteen seventy three. I was shocked, and
so she had experienced up close the effects of dictatorship
and she knew, you know, the horrible impact that that
can have in a place. And then lastly, her daughter
was the exact same age as the grandchildren that dio
Wellis were seeking. And so she did not waiver for
(34:00):
moment when you know, when asked if she would work
on this project for the Oballis despite having a very
very full work life and family life, as you can imagine.
But it really was just the perfect alchemy. And together
they pioneered new forms of genetic testing.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
And I say this in the in the.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
End of the book, but you know, they really are
responsible for pioneering genetic genealogy, which is the combination of
drawing traditional genealogical methods like drawing family trees and then
genetic testing. And that's a technique that's now widely used
by law enforcement agencies. So like that was how the
(34:42):
Golden State killer was convicted, and that all traces back
to the Wellis and Mary Claire King. Yes, yes, yeah,
I was really honored to get to know doctor King.
She I spent a lot of time with her for
this project and she also is and I hope this
came across on the page, but she has boundless energy.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
She is now I think seventy eight.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
But just like we would have these marathon interviews, I
think the longest one we had was nine hours.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Wow. I read that, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Into a puddle, you know, exhaustion, and I swear she
was ready to, you know, keep talking for another another
twelve hours. She's truly incredible. So I feel honored to
have gotten to learn from her.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Amazing, amazing it did come across. I love that she
like whenever a request from the I would as would
come in, Like once they had their system going, they
said everything aside and like her team was fighting to
who was working on it, and that's just I don't know.
That's like not only was she a chapping for them,
but you could tell that she fostered that within the
(35:53):
people that were in her own team for them to
be like as busy as they were to just drop
everything like no, I want to do this, I want
to do this. That's amazing, like amazing.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
It wasn't.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
I got to talk to several of the I never
know the correct scientific term, but I guess they were
doctor students who had worked with her on this project,
and a couple of them got very emotional remembering their
work on this project.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I'm sure they were so proud, So.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yes, they it was wonderful to get to talk to
them and reconstruct them that. I also loved seeing the
abell Us fax as to doctor King, because the Wills
had this way of communicating that did not let people
off the hook even a little. So it's like they
would frame things as like, you know, we'll we'll expect
(36:44):
to get your response, uh, you know, as soon as possible.
And they are all these options. Anyone an option. But
they were lovely little grandmothers, so nobody could begrudge them.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
But I loved it.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
They just they were not going to take no or
maybe or in a little bit as answers from anyone,
even world renowned geneticists who are helping learn about cancer.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Right, Oh my gosh, yeah, amazing. Well we're nearing the
and here one last question we had here. Something that
really stood out was the theme of identity and the
differences between how the Last thought of identity versus their
own critics. And one question you wrote about was to
(37:32):
whom does identity belong, whether it's the sole property of
an individual, or if the family and society have a
right to truth. Can you talk about how the Able
Last handled these kinds of questions and criticisms over their work.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yes, so that was a really thorny question and a
very existential one. But essentially, the Abuelas always pushed for
compulsory DNA testing, and this became more relevant, especially once
the people that they were looking for became legal adults
(38:08):
who could make their own decisions about whether to seek
genetic testing or not. And ultimately they made progress on
having compulsory DNA testing passed into law, but the optics
were sometimes quite difficult for them because the courts, if
a person resisted coming in and giving blood, could order
(38:31):
these raids in which a person's personal belongings like toothbrushes
or hair brushes, could be taken from them for testing.
And there were a couple of high profile instances of this.
In one case, two people who were the adoptive children
of a very high profile and rich and famous media mogul,
(38:53):
whom Leombellas believed were actually the children of Decipotacillos, were
caught up in this high speed, very dramatic, very mediatic
raid at this media Locals mansion outside of Buenos Aires.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
And you know, there were.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
A lot of people, including some allies of the Aballis,
who argued that you can't violate someone's human rights in
the name of human rights, and the Aballas argued back,
you know, a crime is a crime, whether it was
committed yesterday or thirty or forty years ago, and the
(39:31):
state is duty bound to investigate crimes and in this case,
especially a crime in which something as big as someone's
identity has been has been stolen, and you know, these
tensions kind of continue continue to play out, but they
were especially heated around a couple of these particular cases
(39:53):
where there was resistance on the part of the suspected
the suspect grandchildren. And I went into one case that
was ended up in the same way that Gier most
case did with the grandchild ultimately coming around to his identity.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
But there was Ezekiel. Ezekiel, Oh my god, his journey.
What an emotional ride to go through reading his journey,
him replacing the toothbrush in case there was a raid,
but then ultimately in the end coming around, because in
the end, I think it's a human desire to figure
(40:34):
out where you're really from, who you really came from.
And in the end, I mean, yeah, that was beautiful
that he came around. And like you said in the book,
the majority did come around, even if it took decades.
And then his grandmother eventually like not even like saying like, oh,
(40:54):
I don't even like she didn't fallow him for coming
taking so long to come around, just that he came around.
In the end. I was crying, Yeah, tears.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
He describes his grandmother, who unfortunately has passed away, but
as a being that is as close to an angel
as you can possibly come. Like, she really did not
begrudge him. He fought for ten years. You know, they
could have had ten years to get to.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
That.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
He resisted, and she didn't, you know, she didn't resent
him for it or hold it against him, and she
just was grateful for this.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
She is she the one who was comforting his adoptive mother. Yeah,
I was like, she had to be an angel of
a person because wow, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Right, and especially I mean Ezekiel came from a family
that he was taken by a family that did have
direct ties to the dictatorship and his appropriated father actually
you know, went on the run for twenty years and
was trying to evade justice for twenty years. But he
(42:02):
was an intelligence officer in the Air Force, and so
you know, there were situations where the Abelas grandchildren were
adopted by families who didn't know the origins of the
children that they were raising, but this was not one
of those cases. So the fact that Nelly embraced, you know,
Ezekiel's appropriate mother like that takes on new new power
(42:26):
of forgiveness and compassion.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yes, yes, but yeah, we don't want to take up
too much of your time. So that was I think
the last question that we had on our file. But
is there I mean, I think our again, our readers
are just like this book was made for them. They will,
they really will. But in case there's anyone listening that, like,
(42:50):
for some reason needs to be convinced, I don't. I
don't know why, like for some reason needs to be
convinced to read your book, what would you tell them?
Speaker 3 (42:58):
I think that.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
I was so fascinated by this history, and I think
your readers and listeners are clearly people who have a
natural interest in Latin American history, in obscure areas of
Latin American history. But it also felt very important to
me because this is such difficult subject matter, and because
(43:23):
the book really covers such a wide swath of time,
you know, I would say fifty sixty years. It was
very important for me to write this in a narrative
way that reads almost like a novel.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Everything really does as you've seen.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Because you looked at the source notes, but everything is documented,
everything is fact checked. I was really you know, privileged
to get to work with multiple fact checkers. I have
a background in fact checking if there are multiple stories
that didn't add up, like I mentioned that in the endnotes,
and try to be transparent about that. So this is
(44:01):
all you know, based on fact and research. But I
also just think I tried to write it in a
way that brings the emotion through of the story and
of this family and of this movement and of this country.
And so you know, even if you're not immediately drawn
to this period in history or to Argentina, I would
(44:22):
hope that just as a reading experience, you know, you
would still be kind of drawn through to the end.
And then the other thing I would say is I
started working on this book in twenty twenty one, and
there were parallels that I could draw to today and
to home, but they were not nearly as strong as
(44:45):
the parallels that can be drawn today. And I do
think that this book holds very important lessons that all
of us should be paying attention to about what happens
when a government puts it agenda before the rule of law,
and also about how ordinary citizens can band together and
(45:10):
stand up in the instance that things get really extreme.
And so those would be my two arguments for why
someone should.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
Pick up this book.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Yes, yes, yes too, all of that agree with ourthing. Yes,
and thank you so much for I know we like scheduled.
We were like going back and forth because we're so
bad at checking our email. But I'm so glad that
this happened. This has been such a joy doing this.
It really has been wonderful for me.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
And yeah, I'm excited to continue listening to the show.
And yeah, I hope that we can all stay in touch.
This is really great and I'm grateful for the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yes, thank you so much and everyone else listening. If
you haven't gotten the book, you can get a wherever
books are sold, your library even honestly anywhere everywhere. Look
for it immediately, like right now.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Also, the audio version is so I have not listened
to the whole audio.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
It's great. It's great. I actually listened. I went and
got more credits on Libro FM, so I could also
listen to the audiobook because I read so so.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Yeah, it's narrated by Alejandre Renoso who's an amazing voice actress,
and it.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Was so good. So yeah, that's we need to listen
to it. You do need to listen to it too.
I highly recommend it in that way if you're a
slow reader like me.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Oh, thanks much, Carmon and Christina. I really appreciate it.
And yeah, I hope to stay in touch with both
of you.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yes, thank you. What a discussion that was. I feel
rejuvenated after talking with it, and I was like, we
have to I'm like, at some point I have to
stop talking, but I couldn't. Yeah, And there was so
much stuff that we didn't have the time to touch
on because there's so much in this book, Like said herself,
(47:02):
it compasses like what sixty year period time span, And
there's so much I didn't know about at Hintina, even
with the background knowledge that we have from you know,
the podcast, Yeah, and having knowledge of Asusna, we have
Loona what happened to her of Operation Condor of the Disappeared,
(47:30):
but still there's so much to learn. Yeah, and even
if you listen, like you know, he listens to that
full interview, and yes, we talked about a lot that
happens in the book. But even then, this isn't even
like touching that you you were missing so much, so
much just going out it's a story now yeah, Ordrey
(47:51):
get it somewhere us US. But yeah, what what an
amazing story, an amazing person everything. Yeah, I am truly
I said this about Sena, Florida when we did that episode,
and I was like, I am, I was truly changed
(48:12):
by learning about Sussenna and her story and and a
part of this book talks about Susanna and what happened
to her. But it's like even even more because it's
all that well, as you know, even though it focuses
on Rosa, there's still a lot that is talked about
(48:34):
the others and their fighting spirit and they were they
were just amazing, they really were, And we could go
on and about them. We won't, right right, Yeah, yeah,
but we could. But yeah, we hope that this was first.
We hope that everyone goes and reads this book. Yeah,
(48:56):
and then also we hope that this was one list
it started. Unknown Free Bye Bye estorias Anown is produced
by Carmen and Christina, Researched by Carmen and Christina, edited
by Christina. You can find sources for every episode at
Astoria's unknown dot com and in our show notes. Creating
the podcast has a lot of work, so if you
(49:17):
want to help us out financially, you can do so
by supporting us on Patreon at patreon dot com. Slash
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