June 12, 2025 • 41 mins
The years from 1910 to 1920 are known as La Matanza (the massacre) or La Hora de Sangre (the hour of blood). This violence was committed by state police, vigilantes and military, including the Texas rangers, whose violence was worse during 1915 to 1919. Estimates of the number of dead Mexicans from these years range from 300 to 5000, but it’s not exact because so many murders went unreported.
In this episode, Cristina talks about the lynching of two teens in Texas during La Matanza. The lynching of 14 year old Antonio Gomez and 15 year old Leon Martinez.
This is a very heavy episode, listen with caution.
If you have topic suggestions, feel free to email Historiasunknownpodcast@gmail.com or use the contact us form on the website https://www.historiasunknown.com/contact/
Want ad free episodes? And weekly bonus episodes? Support Historias Unknown on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/HistoriasUnknownPodcast
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Music Credit: Hustlin (Instrumental) by Neffex
This episode was edited by Bex Carlos & Alex Rogpe
Sources:
The Injustice Never Leaves You: Anti-Mexican Violence in Texas by Monica Munoz Martinez
Unspeakable Violence: Remapping U.S. and Mexican National Imaginaries (Latin America Otherwise)
Forgotten Dead: Mob Violence against Mexicans in the United States, 1848-1928
The Lynching of Mexicans in the Texas Borderlands by Nicholas Villanueva
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/historias-unknown--6253658/support.
In this episode, Cristina talks about the lynching of two teens in Texas during La Matanza. The lynching of 14 year old Antonio Gomez and 15 year old Leon Martinez.
This is a very heavy episode, listen with caution.
If you have topic suggestions, feel free to email Historiasunknownpodcast@gmail.com or use the contact us form on the website https://www.historiasunknown.com/contact/
Want ad free episodes? And weekly bonus episodes? Support Historias Unknown on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/HistoriasUnknownPodcast
Follow on social media:
Instagram: https : //www.instagram.com/historiasunknown/
Threads: https://www.threads.net/@historiasunknown
Music Credit: Hustlin (Instrumental) by Neffex
This episode was edited by Bex Carlos & Alex Rogpe
Sources:
The Injustice Never Leaves You: Anti-Mexican Violence in Texas by Monica Munoz Martinez
Unspeakable Violence: Remapping U.S. and Mexican National Imaginaries (Latin America Otherwise)
Forgotten Dead: Mob Violence against Mexicans in the United States, 1848-1928
The Lynching of Mexicans in the Texas Borderlands by Nicholas Villanueva
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/historias-unknown--6253658/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hi everyone. This is Carmen and Christina and this is
the study I said no in a podcast where we
talk about Latin American history. Sometimes it's horrible and deals
with heavy topics like racism, corruption, in genotine. It's also
by resistance, power and community. Well, we are continuing my
Inferiating Depressing series here. I have added another episode twit
(00:29):
at this point, so it's a five parter now it
is it is this is four right, yeah. So in
the last episode I shared the context, some context leading
up to the time period from nineteen ten to nineteen
twenty in Texas known as an Hour of Blood or
in Spanish Lauda the Sandre or the massacre Lamat Tantain.
Like I said in that episode, estimates of the number
of dead Mexicans from these years range from three hundred
(00:54):
to five thousand, and it's not exactly exact because so
many murders went unreported. The Texas Rangers were in the
habit of just disappearing people, which is something very specific
to colonalism, right wing state violence. Right. Yeah, that's how
you lessen the numbers and make something sound less severe
than it was. On top of that, some of these
(01:15):
numbers don't always include legal lynchings. So I shared the
lynching of Antonio Rodriguez, who's considered the first victim of
Lo Madanza, and I said, I was going to be
sharing one of the worst occurrences of violence at the
hands of the Texas Rangers. Yeah, but that's not happening
in this episode because what I kept reading, there's another
case that I want to share before that, because this
(01:36):
also marks an important turn into Namatanza. Like if you
had to put a marker on significant lynchings during Amatanza,
not that they were all unimportant, but some that just
showed how vicious the whole time period was. This is
one of them, and that's why I wanted to talk
about it. Wow, And really I should have paired it
with the last episode, but man, that would have been
too rough. That would have been emotionally dreaming. Oh my gosh,
(01:58):
I can't believe you do your notes this. You know
why it takes me so long. It's because I read
everything and then I do my notes. Oh no, I
had This is how I've always done them. You read
as you go. Wow. Yeah, this is the lynching of
Antonio Gomez, which is very similar to last episode. Which
was Antonio Rodriguez in nineteen ten. Okay, wow, and this
(02:23):
is the case of Antonio Gomez. And again just like
they'll last several episodes. This is for sure triggering yet
to me, it is important to know our history. But
of course, you know, listen with caution or skip this
episode if you just are not in the space to
hear this, because yes, this has all been very heavy.
The lynching of Antonio Gomes took place in nineteen eleven
(02:45):
in Thorndale, Texas. At the time, eight hundred and eleven
people lived there and ninety percent of those eight hundred
eleven were white, mostly German American. It sounds dangerous, very
for the eighteen Mexicans living in side of Thorndale, Texas.
Oh my god, I can't imagine being outnumbered like that. Yeah, scary,
(03:07):
And it's actually scary for us because we're actually discriminated against. Okay, right,
And the Mexicans who were in the area were all
either miners, sharecroppers, or railroad workers. Most of them lived
in camps outside of the town or in the neighboring
town of Rockdale, which was a little more Mexican. And
this is where the coal mines were located, and I'm
sure you might have guessed it, but the situation for
(03:29):
the few Mexicans living inside of Thorndale was not good.
They were segregated and they were not allowed to vote.
They went to different schools if they were allowed to
go at all. So yeah, the German American population viewed
themselves as superior to Mexicans. And I will add that
these German Americans they were like very new to the area,
like they were like German German. I get confused, So
(03:52):
like me and you, are we first generation or secretaration?
I thought we were a first gym because you're the
first generation born here. Okay, that's what I thought. Okay,
so if that's the way it works, correct us. They
were wrong, right, gently? Please? Yes, gently? So if that's
the definition, then these were first generation German Americans. Oh okay, wow,
(04:13):
that's so crazy too. The generation before them founded the
town of Thorndale. Oh, and they assimilated so fast to
American culture. I was listening to a fascinating podcast. I
want to say it was from what's his name, Adam
Ruined Everything, but his podcast is called something Else. I
think Oh, okay, I think his show is Adam Ruins Everything. Yeah, anyway,
(04:35):
he has a podcast I listened to, oh factually with
that or some shit like that. I don't know. I
don't know. Anyway, there was one episode where they talked
about assimilation and immigration and they were like the person
who was the guest, I don't remember they did it,
wrote a book or if they were researcher in this area,
but they looked back at it like going back hundreds
of years, and especially with like white immigrants, they assimilated quickly,
(05:00):
so it's not only like a German thing. I don't know. Wow,
this makes sense then, but yeah, they assimilated so fast,
and so of course they were already like this because
again it's a European country. But the German American population
feared themselves as superior to the Mexicans who were there,
and they often negatively portrayed Mexicans in their local newspapers
as savages bandits, both in the Thorndale thorn Is their newspaper.
(05:23):
I'm sorry, really they couldn't come up with a better
name than that. No, very unoriginal. Yeah, and then the
Rockdale Reporter and Messenger. I guess that's better. I don't
know what's up with this alliteration, is my questions. They
were fans of it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
In this case, it didn't know. They constantly labeled all Theiicanos,
(05:43):
Mexican refugees, and Mexican Americans as bandits, even for the
smallest crimes. They were like these Mexican bandits and their banditry, bandits, bandits,
bandits mandatory. That's like all they said. Obviously they were
going to have these terrible views of Mexicans, like yeah,
because again they're very easily influenced. They assimilated in less
than one generation. And again this is all taking place
(06:05):
during the Mexican Revolution, which scares people even more so.
They painted a perfect us versus them scenario. In this
area and in this climate is where the Gomez family
was raising their children, so Antonio Gomez. His father was
Gabrielle Gomez, who arrived in Texas in eighteen sixty seven
as a seasonal laborer. For years, he went back and forth,
(06:25):
working through the seasons until winter, and then in winter
he would return to Mexico. He married Amelia at some
point his wife, he continued to go back and forth
until nineteen hundred. Then she moved down there, and in
nineteen oh eight their youngest child, Hossephia, was recorded as
born in Texas. The older five children were probably born
(06:47):
in Mexico, as again the arrival of the family is
recorded as nineteen hundred. It is a little unclear, though,
because in the nineteen ten census Antonio Gomez is recorded
as Texas Spanish. The Gomez family rented a house near Thorndale,
so they weren't even in Thorndale. They just rented a
house near it, and Gabrielle Gomez worked at a nearby farm.
(07:07):
All six Gomez children spoke English and understood English, but
they could not read or write it. And so on
June nineteenth, nineteen eleven, fourteen year old Antonio Gomez was whittling,
which is like cutting a piece of wood to shape
it into something. Heard fourteen and I'm already sad. Yeah,
I don't know. I thought he was going to be
a man. I didn't think he was in a little
(07:28):
teen No, fourteen year old. So he was carving a
piece of wood with his pocket knife. It was around
seven pm and he was just outside of the Old
Bank saloon in Thorndale. The saloon's owner, William Stevens, walked
out of his establishment, and as soon as he saw Antonio,
he was immediately angry. He took Antonio's piece of wood
and threw it into the street, and he shouted that
(07:49):
the sidewalk is no waste basket, even though he's the
one who threw the piece of wood into the streets.
Of course, he didn't that. Then he grabbed Antonio and
threw him into the ground. Then to groups of men,
one from inside the bar and another from the street.
They were just walking by, surrounded Antonio, who was still
on the floor, and they began to call him names.
Antonio tried to crawl toward his wood carving and then
(08:12):
get away, but one of the men there, Charles Sees Shang,
CIEs does that matter, okay? Charles seas Chang declared that
he would make the damn little skunk quit widling. What
is it to them? He was just there, he was
mighty in his own business. It's because they don't want
us to exist. Since back then and now he didn't,
(08:35):
snatched Antonio's wood carving from him again and began to
hit him with it as the group laughed and kept
calling him names. To defend himself from this attack, Antonio
grabbed his pocket knife and stabbed Charles z shan Good
in the chest. This is literal self defense. He's surrounded
by men, grown men, grown men. He's fourteen years old.
(08:57):
I don't know in what world this wouldn't be self
defense today, right, So Charles C's chain fell over and
died almost immediately right away. Good riddance, bitch. Right, But
the story the white men told was different. We're too
scared of before you do, boy, and were so scared
that we surrounded him a bunch, you girl mean, because
we didn't want to do We didn't want to street
(09:17):
like fuck you guys because their little bitches, That's why,
so they said. Charles went outside and grabbed a piece
of wood from Antonio and then returned to the saloon.
When Charles walked back outside again, Antonio was waiting for
him a knife in hand. As soon as Antonio saw Charles,
(09:39):
he lunged forward and stabbed Charles in the chest. I
don't believe that for one second that's the version they told. No,
not at all. Also, even if that version of the
event was true and sure, this wouldn't warrant getting stabbed
to some people. Why was he taking his little whittle
whatever the hell it's called. Why exactly because they're bullies.
(10:01):
They're evil little bullies. So the constable immediately apprehended Antonio
and marched him to the caboos. It's like a one
building jailhouse with a single cell. And as the constable
marched Antonio to the jailhouse, locals cheered and offered themselves
as witnesses for shit. They didn't witness, right, Yes, this
(10:23):
is what they do to propagate their whiteness. They lie. Yeah,
they hadn't seen it. None of these people saying they
were witnesses were there. Wow. And so the town talked
amongst themselves, and soon the version of the white men
who were attacking him is the one that spread the most.
And the constable knee right away that this was something
(10:44):
that would lend a situation that would lend itself for
a lynching. And he was like, Antonio, he is this
young man in front of me. He's too young for that,
and he would not allow it. Okay. He ordered everyone
back inside their homes, and he ordered for saloons to
stay closed, thinking hopefully this them down and they we
can get through the night and he will just face
(11:04):
quote unquote the normal justice system, the court, Yeah, which
was not normal back then or now. But that didn't work.
The crowd quickly grew to over one hundred. Is there
a bit of blood Thursday? Racist little demons? Yeah, And
fearing that the one room jailhouse would not be enough
to keep Antonio safe from the crowd, the constable snuck
him out around eight pm. He wrapped the chain around
(11:27):
Antonio's neck. This is just how they transported people. No why.
He wrapped the chain around Antonio's neck and led him
to the home of G. W. Penny, just a bigger
house that was easier to apparently secure or something or hiden.
So the plan was to hide Antonio there until the
constable could secure transport to the county jail in Cameron,
(11:48):
which was another nearby tent like the biggest town in
the county, with which had the county jail. And so
the constable left to do that and Wilford, Wilson, and G. W.
Penny stayed with Antonio. Somehow, in less than an hour,
the mob learned where Antonio was being hidden, and they
demanded Wilson and gw Penny give him up, and Penny refused,
(12:09):
and he spoke to the mob, trying to be like, no,
this is wrong. And while Penny was doing this, Wilson
led Antonio out through the back. Okay, my god, I
though I'm gonna say Wilson gave him up. No, no, no,
I mean he's one of the good ones, you know,
is what I'm saying. Yeah, he tried his best scene
to offend him and hide him and keep him safe. Yeah.
So Wilson and Antonio were headed to the oil mill,
(12:31):
which was a pre planned meeting point where the constable
would meet them with the secure transport. But on the
way there three men on foot and one on horseback.
They're so desperate, so desperate to kill little boy. Yeah really,
And then they blocked the road and Antonio tried to
hide behind Wilson, but the man on horseback grabbed the
(12:52):
chain that was around Antonio around his neck and then
dragged him. Oh my god. So he was on horseback
pulling the dragging this fourteen year old Mexican boy all
the way back to town in tears. I don't know the distance,
but I read that and I was I was crying
and mad and I was about to flip my desk,
(13:12):
but it was too heavy, so they dragged him back
to the jailhouse. There the mob tried to hang him
from a ladder that was leaning on the telegraph pole,
but that did not work. As Wilson caught up to them,
he saw Antonio nearly lifeless as the crowd repeatedly kicked
him in the head. Oh my gosh, I can't believe this.
(13:34):
He was just one man. Then he tried to stop them,
but he was outnumbered greatly, one man. He was being
held back as a gre Another group of man picked
Antonio up again, nearly lifeless, and this time they hung
him from the actual telegraph pole, and Wilson was unable
to help. He He felt terrible, but he did report
everything that he saw to the Justice of Peace. He
(13:56):
was saying how they were trying to follow the legal
way to do it, transporting the boy. These men blocked him.
Then he watched them lynch him, and he gave them names.
He gave the Justice of Peace would bring Norris. Wilson
gave him accomplices and the person who actually did the
hang it. He said, all of it. I'm gonna guess
nothing happened to these fucking people, and they went on
(14:18):
to have a little racist children themselves. And look at
Texas now. If these people had been held accountable back then,
there would be less racist in Texas today. And that's
called the butterfly effect. Yeah. As these men finished their
horrific deed lynching Antonio, they yelled at the now dead
(14:38):
fourteen year old Mexican boy. They yelled at him, let's
see if you want to kill any more Germans. And
to that, I say, wait until World War two. Bitch.
Oh my god, I'm just like, what the fuck. So
the constable also, because he wasn't there, he was trying
to secure a transport. The constable got there and he
was like, oh my god, I left the chain there.
(14:59):
Like he came back to to this horrible scene. Oh
my god. He was upset too. Obviously they should not
have been transporting people like that, but that's the way
things were back then, and he didn't think to remove
it ahead of time. Yeah, and man, I don't know
right exactly. And so he was the one to lower
Antonio and remove the chain. And as he was doing this,
(15:19):
the constable, a group of German American men went to
the Gomez family home, leave them alone, ordered them to
leave or they would kill the whole family, their son.
They just killed their son in the most violent, brutal
way possible. Yeah, and then they go to them and
demand them to leave or they'll kill them too. Who
(15:40):
these people think they fucking are? Man, Yeah, this tells
you who they think they are for sure. Oh yeah,
Oh my god. And so fearing for their lives, the
gomet family did. They went to retrieve Antonio's body, they
buried him, and they fled. I can't even imagine how
they must have felt seen him like that. I can't
trying to think about it is I can't really, it's horrible. So, yeah,
(16:02):
they went to retrieve his body, they buried him, and
then they immediately left for San Antonio. And you know,
it's terrible back then too. I mean, like a lot
of times people moved and they never came back to
where they were before, and so like they can't even
visit the grave site, you know, they can't. And that's
such an important thing for Mexican families. Yeah, I mean,
like I know, obviously it's like I mean, important to
(16:24):
a lot of people, but like I say this as
a Mexican you don't understand, like, we'll just sit there
and play music and cry and laugh. Yeah, and it
doesn't even have to be thea An Mortos, which is
obviously more special. But yeah, yeah, and they can't do
that because they had to leave. And surprisingly, unlike the
other lynjens that I discussed in the past several episodes,
(16:46):
this one was met with disgust even in the American medium.
You know why, because those German Americans, these non American Germans. No,
but that's good. The Dallas Morning News and you know
what sar I should say. It was the bigger cities
like San Antonio and Dallas who were appalled, Okay, who
even now have a reputation of being more liberal than
(17:10):
other areas of Texas. Yeah, so, the Dallas Learning News wrote,
the news is not capable of producing anything that could
express the horror and humiliation that it feels because of
the crime committed by a mob at Thorndale. They were disgusted.
San Antonio newspapers reported about the lynching in a similar fashion,
but nationwide newspapers reported that Thorndale's finest men simply took
(17:35):
matters into their own hands. Are you serious, what is
wrong with them? A tradition that is so disgusting, that's
like fucking gone. A tradition and culture of violence. Okay, yeah,
when you say what is white culture to me? Violence? Yes,
I mean I'm sorry from the beginning with Jennis and
colonization and slavery, yep, and then this kind of shit.
(17:57):
But it also reminds me of Trump when he when
the Charlottesville thing happened, and then he was like, there's
good people on both sides, and it's like, hello, only
one person with certain instead of believes killed somebody here.
And they always say that, I always say both sides,
both sides, and in the end, one side was extremely violent. Yes,
(18:18):
And of course the Thorndale Thorn fucking stupid name, stupid.
The Thorndale Thorn responded to this media coverage by Riddina
Antonio had stabbed Charles Ceashan without provocation, which was not true.
Even I'm sorry to say, even if he had stabbed
him without provocation, it doesn't warrant there's a level of violence.
(18:42):
It warrants a fucking arrest. Nothing would justify this. It
doesn't warrant Yeah, being brutally brutally killed, Like, that's crazy
to me. After the Thorndale thorn said that he did
this without provocation. Antonio did this without provocation. A Winness
came forward and gave the account that I said, the
first one where he was just playing with a carving
(19:02):
a piece of wood and then he was surrounded by men.
I just can't even believe this, and it happens now,
you know, in the same age, and it makes me
think of Trayvon Martin, who, yeah, like this is horrible. Literally,
what I was gonna say in today's lynch mob is
the police. Yeah, and that's why we should not join
the military or become comms because these are the system.
(19:25):
Yeah no, but I say this as a veteran, so
that's okay. The witness account led to the arrest of
the four Thorndale men who did this, which shocked the town.
Not the lynching. The lynching didn't shock the town. An
attempt to hold him accountable shocked them. Yep. This is
what they deserve, Like, I can't believe this, that's what
(19:46):
shocked them. Yeah, they deserve to be held accountable for this. Yeah, yeah, right,
And that's the system we have, so that's they're supposed
to go through the system like come on. So the
witness was a Mexican l named Antonio, very popular name
named Antonio Alvarez, of course, and Antonio Alavadez had to
be escorted to San Antonio because there were fears that
(20:09):
he was going to be lynched too for providing this testimony.
So he arrived to San Antonio safely, and him along
with the family was safe in San Antonio because unlike
these small tiny towns, there was a large Mexican community
in San Antonio where they could receive help from organizations
like La Agroup Basion Protect Mexicana, the Mexican Protection Group.
(20:32):
I guess what it would translate to. And they helped
them by providing protection, financial help and organizing a mass meeting.
And when they announced this mass meeting, they did so
by passing out flyers that stead of the following. The
Society has for its general purpose the protection of Mexican
citizens throughout the state of Texas and for the specific
purpose bringing to justice the perpetrators of the lynching of
(20:55):
Antonio Gomez at Thorndale and Antonio Rodriguez at Springs. I
shared last episode Wait how far apart did these things happen? Oh?
A year? Well, technically like six months if you look
at the time period, but they are a year if
you look at the number alone, like the year it happened,
like end of nineteen ten and then mid six months. Yeah,
(21:16):
six months. I guess what do I say? It like that? Oh?
Oh I see? I see? Yeah yeah yeah, so six
months apart. Sorry, sometimes i'd be saying shit that doesn't
making any sing. Wow. Yeah, I was confused a validor
response anyway, Yeah, six months apart? Like what the fuck
did she just say? They passed out these fires, and
they announced a June twenty ninth meeting, and the Mexican
(21:39):
Consulate begged them not to hold a meeting because they
were afraid of what would happened, but they did it anyway,
and more than three thousand people attended the meeting, three
thousand and During this meeting, they were like, well, what
what are the ne wow depths? And some people wanted vengeance? Right,
but then they're like, no, we can't be like them,
like we're not going to use violence, which is like
(21:59):
a very Mexican American thing to say, because it gone
I understand that feeling or mentality of not wanting to
be like because how many movements have there been within
the Latino Latino community in the US, and the biggest
thing is like be respectful, don't be like them. And
it's like I'm sorry sometimes yeah, yeah, I'm saying. I'm
(22:25):
saying and you know what, Sorry, I'm gonna go off
the side a little bit here, but I think sometimes
we need to act like Mexicans and in Mexico, are
you gonna say what I've did? You're gonna say? I
think so. But I don't remember her name, but she's
a creator on TikTok. Oh May, right, I want to say,
that's her name, Oh May, Yes, I think so, but
Oh May. She put out a video where she's like,
(22:46):
these cultures are very different and like this is not
what's on the point of the video. But in the
video she says that Mexicans in Mexico they like they
actually protest. It's like, real, what you're supposed to do.
You're supposed to disrupt, write whatever is happening, and like
that's not a thing here, and that's why the two
cultures can never be the same. And that's almost why
we can't even like progress here in the US because
(23:08):
we don't do it like them, and it's such as
Mexicans and Mexico it's like Latin America. They all movements
are like legit. Yeah, but you're not to discredit like
anyone that's you know, resisting and participating in organizations that
are opposing yeah, tyranny, brutal immigration policies and things like that.
But yeah, there's a big difference and the way that
(23:29):
people respond over there, like you know, they break shit
over there, but a lot of them are met with
the same comments about like how that's wrong, blah blah blah.
So yes, yeah, that's what they were debated in this meeting.
What do we do? How do we respond? And then
the end they're like, well, we need to demand justice
through the justice system. They had a petition where they
all signed it. They drafted a letter. They send it
(23:51):
to the US Department of State and the Department of
Foreign Affairs in Mexico City and Texas Governor Oscar coquit
replied what the letter, stating that he would send one
experienced ranger to investigate the situation. And I will say
as much as I've been sitting on the Texas rangers.
One of the things they did do was escort people
to protect them. Like the witness that I mentioned earlier,
(24:13):
he was escorted by a Texas ranger to San Antonio, Okay,
to avoid being lynched. But I add that sometimes during
these escorts they did the lynching themselves. So it's not
like a thing to celebrate. My god, it's like there's
like maybe one half decent apple in the bunch, and
that's why that whole apple a thing. It doesn't work
for me. It doesn't work in general statistically scientifically speaking. Right,
(24:37):
While the Mexican community came together to demand justice for Antonio,
the German community came together to defend the men that
were charged with the murder of Antonio. Comes because they
were the finest of Thorndale. Among them, those of the finest,
I don't want to be any of them, no, exactly.
Among them was the son of one of the founders
of Thorndale, of course. Yeah. And they were all part
(24:58):
of the or prominent members of that community, sons of
founders or like well connected families. Again Thorndale's finest men. Wow.
I mean again, if you have a tradition of violence
and colonialism. Then yeah, that is your finest men, of course. Yeah,
like that's what you value, so of course you think
that's just fine and dandy. All four men were indicted
(25:20):
for first degree murder on October twenty four to nineteen eleven.
They had separate trials, but jury selection was an issue
because they couldn't find anyone who did not have a
racial prejudice towards Mexicans. Of course. Yeah. Potential jurors were
asked if the same standard should be applied to a
Mexican defendant, if the circumstances were reversed, and whether the
(25:40):
punishment for the murder of a Mexican person should be
more or less severe than that for the murder of
a white person. And every single member of the jury
that they were screening scoffed or like laughed at the suggestion. Wow,
the question, It was suggestion, It was a question. Yeah.
So they all showed clear racial biases, not surprising. Eventually
(26:01):
they found a jury which again it was a racist jury.
So they had to go with the right cist because
there's no other option. There was no one else, no,
unless they moved the trial to like New York location.
So yeah, there was like no other jury members that
were not racists at all. I forget how many days
to find a journey for each trial, because again they
were separate trials. Wow, and each trial for each man
(26:25):
went the same. Witnesses were changing their stories, specifically witnesses
that were supposed to testify for the prosecution. Oh they're
probably scared. Hell yeah, like the last witness had to flee.
Oh wow, And one by one the men were all acquitted. No, yeah,
buy in all white racist jury. They and family members
sometimes and friends. This is why it scares me. Like
(26:48):
people that are founder like descendants of founders like these. Yeah.
How many people who have these kind of founding families
or like a long history in certain areas of the country.
How many of their ancestors can we traced back who
participated in some kind of lynch mob like this, whether
it was against a Mexican or black person, were Chinese
(27:10):
or indigenous person? Yeah, yes, exactly right. And even if
there was no lynching, how many of them held these
beliefs defended their family from this kind of shit and
they were acquitted. Yes at mat Hill. Like that woman
who on her deathbed confessed she went on her whole
life with this disgusting racist attitude, knowing she killed, she
(27:33):
got a little boy killed. Yeah, with their fucking lies
and her fucking racist shit of a family killed that boy.
And I off the top of my head right now,
I can't remember what kate became of them, But I
don't know. Did they get away with that? I don't remember.
I don't remember what it surprised me if they did, No,
but yeah, I don't remember. So yeah, like these people
(27:55):
that were quitted got away with it. A whole fucking town.
Hundreds of people that killed one little fourteen year old
boy had their own children that they raised with these beliefs.
And this is why we are where we are now,
this is what the same place, This is why we
are where we are. Yeah. Now, yeah, I thought you
said this is my Roman Empire, and I was like
(28:15):
mine two also, So yeah, one by one they were
all acquitted, and the fourth man, the charges were just
dropped against him because they were like, well, this's going
to be another acquittal, so why even go through the
trial and they just drop the charges. So the lynching
of a fourteen year old Mexican boy went unpunished. And again,
(28:38):
this is just one of many lynchings in the state
of Texas. A couple years after this, nineteen fourteen, a
fifteen year old fifteen year old Leon Martinez Junior was
lynched for allegedly killing Emma Brown, a white woman, in Beccles, Texas.
He met twenty six year old Emma Brown just one
week before she was found dead. The town was shocked
(28:59):
when she was found and evidence at the scene showed
that the attacker came from the east. There were bullet
holes in her buggy, one in her and she appeared
to have fallen from her buggy and then stabbed several
times after she had been shot. They found her the
next morning and the town immediately started looking for the killer,
and because several people saw her talking with Leon again,
a fifteen year old Mexican boy, he became the first
(29:22):
and only suspect because he was talking to her that day.
That's ridiculous and this is why mob violent is not
right or vigilante justice is not right, because how do
we know this person did it or not. That's why
we have a whole system to find this out, yeah,
which is flawed, and innocent people are convicted, sentenced to
death penalties, which is why we should also be against
(29:45):
the death penalty, because if one innocent person is in
jeopardy of being killed by the state, then nobody should
be killed by a state, right. I don't care if
you get mad, and if anyone gets mad about that, no,
I agree. Yeah, And it's the same thing, like this
boy probably had no nothing to do with this woman
being killed. And just because one racist person was like, oh,
a brown boy talking to a white woman, not a
(30:06):
mind watch, yeah, you know what I mean. Like, also,
she was twenty six, he was fifteen. It brings me
the question, why is she talking to him? That's what
I'm wondering. What the hell, what business does she have
talking to him? That's a real question. Obviously she shouldn't
have been killed. Bet is justation. Yeah, because these boys,
these teenage and we gam I mean, it's like the
(30:29):
story of Emma Hill again. Yes, they tried to say
that he was whistling at her. This is a little boy.
He probably didn't even look at you know what I mean,
And she made it up. Yeah, it's a hyper sexualization
of black boys and Latino boys. Yes, okay, I think
that's sorry. We can breathe a little bit. Yeah, so
(30:51):
they went looking for him right away, based on him
being seen talking to her for very briefly like minutes.
When they found him, he wasn't even attempting to run
or hide. He was going on about his usual day working.
He probably even know what was coming. He boss approached
him and asked if he knew anything about a murdered
woman from Saragoza, and he said no, and he went
on his way clueless. Really, a group of men surrounded
(31:12):
him as he was eating a watermelon and they demanded
that he confess. He kept saying he was innocent, but
the men kept threatening that they would to hang him
if he didn't confess. Then, when they promised not to
hang him if he confessed, he confessed. And this is
also why forced confessions are wrong. And these people aren't
even you know, anybody to be demanding confessions from anyone. No,
(31:34):
during his trial, his confession was introduced at the trial,
but not the way of getting that confession that ridiculous.
They didn't say he was forced, Yeah, they didn't say
he was berated by a group of men that were
wailder than him, were not even law enforcement, outnumbered, all
demanding he confessed or they would hang him. Oh my god,
that is a confession under threat or cursion is not
(31:57):
a confession obviously, No, it's come on, come on. During
the trial, this is the following story that was presented.
Emma Brown promised him sex and later they met at
their arranged time. But when she got there, okay, so
she was a peto. Yeah okay, but when she where
did they get thisation from? It's unknown? Wow, like supposedly
(32:17):
from him, but I don't believe it. Ah. Yeah, so
they said, yeah, Emma Brown had promised him sex and
later they met at their arrange time. But when she
got there, she said, you sent up a bitch. I'm
going to have you arrested. And he was like, that's
not necessary. I'm only there because you said you were
going to give me sex. His story doesn't even make sense. No,
it doesn't. Oh my god. She told him she would
(32:38):
kill him, and then she reached for her hip and scared,
he pulled out his weapon and shot her. This makes
zero sense. Then he went to eat, have dinner and work.
Who the hell goes to eat rather to kill someone?
I mean, some people do it, I guess, but what
the hell I mean? Some people do? But this doesn't
make any sense, but that's what they said. He said
during a confession or something. You can't even make up
(32:59):
a good fun story because they're stupid and they have
no creativity. No, they can't. Yeah, but he has a
different version of events, which I'm going to read it
from page eighty four of this book, and which I
fully believe a lot more than these stupid people. Yeah,
I am fifteen years and two months of age. Oh sorry.
They also kept saying he was eighteen. They kept insisting
he was eighteen, of course, to make it sound a
(33:20):
little more okay, that they're going to kill him. Okay,
so he said, I am fifteen years and two months
of age. It is not true that I'm eighteen years old.
I was born in eighteen ninety six. I did not
kill miss Emma Brown. I knew nothing of the murder
until the Mexican told me about it shortly before my arrest.
I never had any relations with miss Brown. I worked
in the store and post office at Saragosa and often
(33:41):
waited on her selling her some goods. On the morning
of the killing, I placed her goods in the buggy
and untied her horse. That was the last I saw
of her until I viewed the body. They made me
sign that confession. I told them I was innocent, but
they told me they would kill me if I didn't
sign a confession. I was frightened, and I did it.
They said that Miss Brown was killed about five o'clock
in the afternoon. I could have proved that I was
(34:02):
in the store in that hour, but they wouldn't let me.
I believe him. I believe him too wholeheartedly. Yeah. He
was declared guilty by the jury and then sentenced to
death pretty quickly after that. Hundreds and hundreds of letters
were sent to Governor Colquitt pleading for a pardon. He
was known to party in criminals. He gave out like
a thousand pardons a year and when he was governor,
(34:24):
so wow, it wasn't a reach to be like, can
you pardon this boy for something he didn't do? Right? Yeah,
So he received hundreds and hundreds of letters from people
in San Antonio, mostly advocating for him still, or to
at least give him a life sentence, but to let
him live, not to hang him. But nothing worked. He
was scheduled for his hanging on May eleventh, nineteen fourteen.
(34:45):
His only request was to wear the Mexican colors when
he was hanged. I I don't know why that did it.
This whole thing is horrible, and I think it's just
now catching up to me. Also though it happened because
he was Mexican, so of course he's got I gonna
we're the Mexican colors. I'm that's right. Yeah, on the
ridge of tears too. But I'm more mad right now
(35:06):
than angry, So that's why I haven't cried. But seriously,
fuck fuck them, Fuck them. He wore the Mexican colors,
and he stood on this scaffold and he said he
was innocent and a calm demeanor. And he was known
for his calm demeanor the whole time he was in jail.
Oh my god, he was fifteen. He was just a
(35:26):
little boy. Yes, let's all take a moment together, okay.
And I wanted to highlight these two cases because again
they are all the cases that we know of are important,
but these are two of the most well documented. One
marking the beginning of the matanza. One just kind of
like showing that it didn't fucking matter like to anyone
(35:47):
or any any of them, you know, lynching was legal.
His lynching was legal, and it goes to show. I mean,
I don't think we need to remind any of of
our listeners, because you guys are all, you know, geniuses
based based g yes. But what's legal is is not
always right. And that's why I wanted to talk about
these two specifically. They're not the same, but in some
(36:09):
sense they are. You know, yes, but they are. And
so that's why I pivoted to this for because I
know I said I was going to be getting into
the Texas Rangers. I'm not mad at you're pivoting. It's
just a little like you're not expecting it and then
it happens, which is fine. And even though it makes
us mad and we cry and it's infuriating and it's
(36:29):
sad that this was done to our people, it's important
to talk about these things because these attitudes did not
go away. They remain here, and we're seeing it in
this same age, and now we're seeing it perpetrated by
Mexicans too, extra Americans, maybe even the Techanos who were there,
you know, during this time and their families continued to
(36:49):
be in the area, and now all of a sudden,
they think they're not Mexican. But at the end of
the day, it doesn't matter how many generations you've been here,
you know, to the kind of people that enact this
kind of violence, they will never accept us, Like it
doesn't matter how deep you lick their boots, you know, exactly,
(37:12):
if you buy into whiteness like it doesn't it's not
gonna protect you, it's not gonna save you. Yes, I
don't want to go into another like rant, obviously, but
I want to say that, like at first, the people
that doesn't know their history, they don't have a future.
We need to know what happened to us. If we don't,
(37:32):
we're out here voting for Trump. Yeah again not Mexican men,
but Latino men. And that generalization is who helped him.
And again he's just part of a system. He's not
even the whole thing, right right, Besides the point, the
point is that we need to But and when we
talk about like buying into whiteness, like it doesn't mean
like the white person down the street. Whiteness and then
(37:53):
of itself is a system, yes, a system of colonialism,
yeah yeah, and uh yeah, colonization, And that's what we're
talking about. We're not talking I have white friends. Okay,
hashtag not hall white people. That's not the point though.
The point is to learn that this is what was
being done to us, and that's why you shouldn't be
voting for the people who were have this legacy right
(38:15):
or voting And I'm just gonna I'm gonna stop. And
now it's being done in the form of lynching your
mom violence. Today, it's ice, it's the cops, you know
what I mean? And what are we seeing Like just
this week alone, I've heard, well, within the last few weeks,
we've heard of how many teenagers And that's what I
(38:37):
thought of, Like when you mentioned the ages of these boys. Yes,
like we've seen teenagers being taken by ice, and of
course it happens, but I'm like, I mean, currently, I
know the high school junior Marcelo, he was freed, but
currently there's a fourth grader being in an ICE attention
center right now, being detained and a nice on his
(38:59):
parents away from his parent I'm like, why, Like, nobody
should be detained, but why add on that separation? And
this legacy of what we're talking about informs what is
happening today. Yeah, and yet you see Mexicans celebrating this
Mexican Mexican Americans sorry, saying like, oh, they should have
(39:20):
kill the Ray Green. It's like, shut the fuck up,
Shut the fuck up, just shut up for real. Yeah,
I don't. I can't even express how tired I am
of seeing this dumb ass shit. Even Oh, dependents knew
what they were getting into, they knew the consequences when
they brought their children here. They shut up. You're not
special because you were born here. You're not special if
(39:44):
if your parents came the supposed right way, which I
doubt they did. The right way was on a boat
to come and kill all the indigenous people who were
here and lynch Mexicans. That was the right way, and
then be white and come and just be let in
after that. Yeah, that's the only the right way other
than that, like you know, yeah, yeah, and we could
go on and on, but we won't. Let's not. You're right,
(40:06):
that should probably end because then, well, yeah, we'll go on,
and should we should? Yes? Next episode I will be
getting into the Texas Rangers and the Botivnid massacres specifically,
and then the hearings that follow the Putavinian massacre. The
canals hearings. So yeah, that's gonna be the next episode.
But yeah, other than that, I don't know. Go go
hug a little Mexican teenager, please, whether it's family, friends
(40:29):
like please, no, no, no no, do better than that.
Stand up for immigration, immigrant rights. Support your local immigration organizations.
If you can't be there in person, you can donate.
You can spread awareness so you can speak out against
these injustices because these things are wrong. They are wrong. Yeah,
don't let anybody make you think this is normal. Do
(40:50):
not make anybody make you think that they're going after criminals,
and even if they were criminals, don't let anybody think
that it's okay to treat anybody in this way. Yes,
thank you, thank you. They are always calling me in
I'm just kidding. Shut up. We hope this was one
lesson Storia Unknown for you. Bye bye. Astoria Unknown is
(41:12):
produced by Carmen and Christina, researched by Carmen and Christina,
edited by Christina. You can find sources for every episode
attias Unknown dot com and in our show notes. Creating
the podcast has a lot of work, so if you
want to help us out financially, you can do so
by supporting us on Patreon at patreon dot com. Slash
Studied as an own podcast
Hi everyone. This is Carmen and Christina and this is
the study I said no in a podcast where we
talk about Latin American history. Sometimes it's horrible and deals
with heavy topics like racism, corruption, in genotine. It's also
by resistance, power and community. Well, we are continuing my
Inferiating Depressing series here. I have added another episode twit
(00:29):
at this point, so it's a five parter now it
is it is this is four right, yeah. So in
the last episode I shared the context, some context leading
up to the time period from nineteen ten to nineteen
twenty in Texas known as an Hour of Blood or
in Spanish Lauda the Sandre or the massacre Lamat Tantain.
Like I said in that episode, estimates of the number
of dead Mexicans from these years range from three hundred
(00:54):
to five thousand, and it's not exactly exact because so
many murders went unreported. The Texas Rangers were in the
habit of just disappearing people, which is something very specific
to colonalism, right wing state violence. Right. Yeah, that's how
you lessen the numbers and make something sound less severe
than it was. On top of that, some of these
(01:15):
numbers don't always include legal lynchings. So I shared the
lynching of Antonio Rodriguez, who's considered the first victim of
Lo Madanza, and I said, I was going to be
sharing one of the worst occurrences of violence at the
hands of the Texas Rangers. Yeah, but that's not happening
in this episode because what I kept reading, there's another
case that I want to share before that, because this
(01:36):
also marks an important turn into Namatanza. Like if you
had to put a marker on significant lynchings during Amatanza,
not that they were all unimportant, but some that just
showed how vicious the whole time period was. This is
one of them, and that's why I wanted to talk
about it. Wow, And really I should have paired it
with the last episode, but man, that would have been
too rough. That would have been emotionally dreaming. Oh my gosh,
(01:58):
I can't believe you do your notes this. You know
why it takes me so long. It's because I read
everything and then I do my notes. Oh no, I
had This is how I've always done them. You read
as you go. Wow. Yeah, this is the lynching of
Antonio Gomez, which is very similar to last episode. Which
was Antonio Rodriguez in nineteen ten. Okay, wow, and this
(02:23):
is the case of Antonio Gomez. And again just like
they'll last several episodes. This is for sure triggering yet
to me, it is important to know our history. But
of course, you know, listen with caution or skip this
episode if you just are not in the space to
hear this, because yes, this has all been very heavy.
The lynching of Antonio Gomes took place in nineteen eleven
(02:45):
in Thorndale, Texas. At the time, eight hundred and eleven
people lived there and ninety percent of those eight hundred
eleven were white, mostly German American. It sounds dangerous, very
for the eighteen Mexicans living in side of Thorndale, Texas.
Oh my god, I can't imagine being outnumbered like that. Yeah, scary,
(03:07):
And it's actually scary for us because we're actually discriminated against. Okay, right,
And the Mexicans who were in the area were all
either miners, sharecroppers, or railroad workers. Most of them lived
in camps outside of the town or in the neighboring
town of Rockdale, which was a little more Mexican. And
this is where the coal mines were located, and I'm
sure you might have guessed it, but the situation for
(03:29):
the few Mexicans living inside of Thorndale was not good.
They were segregated and they were not allowed to vote.
They went to different schools if they were allowed to
go at all. So yeah, the German American population viewed
themselves as superior to Mexicans. And I will add that
these German Americans they were like very new to the area,
like they were like German German. I get confused, So
(03:52):
like me and you, are we first generation or secretaration?
I thought we were a first gym because you're the
first generation born here. Okay, that's what I thought. Okay,
so if that's the way it works, correct us. They
were wrong, right, gently? Please? Yes, gently? So if that's
the definition, then these were first generation German Americans. Oh okay, wow,
(04:13):
that's so crazy too. The generation before them founded the
town of Thorndale. Oh, and they assimilated so fast to
American culture. I was listening to a fascinating podcast. I
want to say it was from what's his name, Adam
Ruined Everything, but his podcast is called something Else. I
think Oh, okay, I think his show is Adam Ruins Everything. Yeah, anyway,
(04:35):
he has a podcast I listened to, oh factually with
that or some shit like that. I don't know. I
don't know. Anyway, there was one episode where they talked
about assimilation and immigration and they were like the person
who was the guest, I don't remember they did it,
wrote a book or if they were researcher in this area,
but they looked back at it like going back hundreds
of years, and especially with like white immigrants, they assimilated quickly,
(05:00):
so it's not only like a German thing. I don't know. Wow,
this makes sense then, but yeah, they assimilated so fast,
and so of course they were already like this because
again it's a European country. But the German American population
feared themselves as superior to the Mexicans who were there,
and they often negatively portrayed Mexicans in their local newspapers
as savages bandits, both in the Thorndale thorn Is their newspaper.
(05:23):
I'm sorry, really they couldn't come up with a better
name than that. No, very unoriginal. Yeah, and then the
Rockdale Reporter and Messenger. I guess that's better. I don't
know what's up with this alliteration, is my questions. They
were fans of it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
In this case, it didn't know. They constantly labeled all Theiicanos,
(05:43):
Mexican refugees, and Mexican Americans as bandits, even for the
smallest crimes. They were like these Mexican bandits and their banditry, bandits, bandits,
bandits mandatory. That's like all they said. Obviously they were
going to have these terrible views of Mexicans, like yeah,
because again they're very easily influenced. They assimilated in less
than one generation. And again this is all taking place
(06:05):
during the Mexican Revolution, which scares people even more so.
They painted a perfect us versus them scenario. In this
area and in this climate is where the Gomez family
was raising their children, so Antonio Gomez. His father was
Gabrielle Gomez, who arrived in Texas in eighteen sixty seven
as a seasonal laborer. For years, he went back and forth,
(06:25):
working through the seasons until winter, and then in winter
he would return to Mexico. He married Amelia at some
point his wife, he continued to go back and forth
until nineteen hundred. Then she moved down there, and in
nineteen oh eight their youngest child, Hossephia, was recorded as
born in Texas. The older five children were probably born
(06:47):
in Mexico, as again the arrival of the family is
recorded as nineteen hundred. It is a little unclear, though,
because in the nineteen ten census Antonio Gomez is recorded
as Texas Spanish. The Gomez family rented a house near Thorndale,
so they weren't even in Thorndale. They just rented a
house near it, and Gabrielle Gomez worked at a nearby farm.
(07:07):
All six Gomez children spoke English and understood English, but
they could not read or write it. And so on
June nineteenth, nineteen eleven, fourteen year old Antonio Gomez was whittling,
which is like cutting a piece of wood to shape
it into something. Heard fourteen and I'm already sad. Yeah,
I don't know. I thought he was going to be
a man. I didn't think he was in a little
(07:28):
teen No, fourteen year old. So he was carving a
piece of wood with his pocket knife. It was around
seven pm and he was just outside of the Old
Bank saloon in Thorndale. The saloon's owner, William Stevens, walked
out of his establishment, and as soon as he saw Antonio,
he was immediately angry. He took Antonio's piece of wood
and threw it into the street, and he shouted that
(07:49):
the sidewalk is no waste basket, even though he's the
one who threw the piece of wood into the streets.
Of course, he didn't that. Then he grabbed Antonio and
threw him into the ground. Then to groups of men,
one from inside the bar and another from the street.
They were just walking by, surrounded Antonio, who was still
on the floor, and they began to call him names.
Antonio tried to crawl toward his wood carving and then
(08:12):
get away, but one of the men there, Charles Sees Shang,
CIEs does that matter, okay? Charles seas Chang declared that
he would make the damn little skunk quit widling. What
is it to them? He was just there, he was
mighty in his own business. It's because they don't want
us to exist. Since back then and now he didn't,
(08:35):
snatched Antonio's wood carving from him again and began to
hit him with it as the group laughed and kept
calling him names. To defend himself from this attack, Antonio
grabbed his pocket knife and stabbed Charles z shan Good
in the chest. This is literal self defense. He's surrounded
by men, grown men, grown men. He's fourteen years old.
(08:57):
I don't know in what world this wouldn't be self
defense today, right, So Charles C's chain fell over and
died almost immediately right away. Good riddance, bitch. Right, But
the story the white men told was different. We're too
scared of before you do, boy, and were so scared
that we surrounded him a bunch, you girl mean, because
we didn't want to do We didn't want to street
(09:17):
like fuck you guys because their little bitches, That's why,
so they said. Charles went outside and grabbed a piece
of wood from Antonio and then returned to the saloon.
When Charles walked back outside again, Antonio was waiting for
him a knife in hand. As soon as Antonio saw Charles,
(09:39):
he lunged forward and stabbed Charles in the chest. I
don't believe that for one second that's the version they told. No,
not at all. Also, even if that version of the
event was true and sure, this wouldn't warrant getting stabbed
to some people. Why was he taking his little whittle
whatever the hell it's called. Why exactly because they're bullies.
(10:01):
They're evil little bullies. So the constable immediately apprehended Antonio
and marched him to the caboos. It's like a one
building jailhouse with a single cell. And as the constable
marched Antonio to the jailhouse, locals cheered and offered themselves
as witnesses for shit. They didn't witness, right, Yes, this
(10:23):
is what they do to propagate their whiteness. They lie. Yeah,
they hadn't seen it. None of these people saying they
were witnesses were there. Wow. And so the town talked
amongst themselves, and soon the version of the white men
who were attacking him is the one that spread the most.
And the constable knee right away that this was something
(10:44):
that would lend a situation that would lend itself for
a lynching. And he was like, Antonio, he is this
young man in front of me. He's too young for that,
and he would not allow it. Okay. He ordered everyone
back inside their homes, and he ordered for saloons to
stay closed, thinking hopefully this them down and they we
can get through the night and he will just face
(11:04):
quote unquote the normal justice system, the court, Yeah, which
was not normal back then or now. But that didn't work.
The crowd quickly grew to over one hundred. Is there
a bit of blood Thursday? Racist little demons? Yeah, And
fearing that the one room jailhouse would not be enough
to keep Antonio safe from the crowd, the constable snuck
him out around eight pm. He wrapped the chain around
(11:27):
Antonio's neck. This is just how they transported people. No why.
He wrapped the chain around Antonio's neck and led him
to the home of G. W. Penny, just a bigger
house that was easier to apparently secure or something or hiden.
So the plan was to hide Antonio there until the
constable could secure transport to the county jail in Cameron,
(11:48):
which was another nearby tent like the biggest town in
the county, with which had the county jail. And so
the constable left to do that and Wilford, Wilson, and G. W.
Penny stayed with Antonio. Somehow, in less than an hour,
the mob learned where Antonio was being hidden, and they
demanded Wilson and gw Penny give him up, and Penny refused,
(12:09):
and he spoke to the mob, trying to be like, no,
this is wrong. And while Penny was doing this, Wilson
led Antonio out through the back. Okay, my god, I
though I'm gonna say Wilson gave him up. No, no, no,
I mean he's one of the good ones, you know,
is what I'm saying. Yeah, he tried his best scene
to offend him and hide him and keep him safe. Yeah.
So Wilson and Antonio were headed to the oil mill,
(12:31):
which was a pre planned meeting point where the constable
would meet them with the secure transport. But on the
way there three men on foot and one on horseback.
They're so desperate, so desperate to kill little boy. Yeah really,
And then they blocked the road and Antonio tried to
hide behind Wilson, but the man on horseback grabbed the
(12:52):
chain that was around Antonio around his neck and then
dragged him. Oh my god. So he was on horseback
pulling the dragging this fourteen year old Mexican boy all
the way back to town in tears. I don't know the distance,
but I read that and I was I was crying
and mad and I was about to flip my desk,
(13:12):
but it was too heavy, so they dragged him back
to the jailhouse. There the mob tried to hang him
from a ladder that was leaning on the telegraph pole,
but that did not work. As Wilson caught up to them,
he saw Antonio nearly lifeless as the crowd repeatedly kicked
him in the head. Oh my gosh, I can't believe this.
(13:34):
He was just one man. Then he tried to stop them,
but he was outnumbered greatly, one man. He was being
held back as a gre Another group of man picked
Antonio up again, nearly lifeless, and this time they hung
him from the actual telegraph pole, and Wilson was unable
to help. He He felt terrible, but he did report
everything that he saw to the Justice of Peace. He
(13:56):
was saying how they were trying to follow the legal
way to do it, transporting the boy. These men blocked him.
Then he watched them lynch him, and he gave them names.
He gave the Justice of Peace would bring Norris. Wilson
gave him accomplices and the person who actually did the
hang it. He said, all of it. I'm gonna guess
nothing happened to these fucking people, and they went on
(14:18):
to have a little racist children themselves. And look at
Texas now. If these people had been held accountable back then,
there would be less racist in Texas today. And that's
called the butterfly effect. Yeah. As these men finished their
horrific deed lynching Antonio, they yelled at the now dead
(14:38):
fourteen year old Mexican boy. They yelled at him, let's
see if you want to kill any more Germans. And
to that, I say, wait until World War two. Bitch.
Oh my god, I'm just like, what the fuck. So
the constable also, because he wasn't there, he was trying
to secure a transport. The constable got there and he
was like, oh my god, I left the chain there.
(14:59):
Like he came back to to this horrible scene. Oh
my god. He was upset too. Obviously they should not
have been transporting people like that, but that's the way
things were back then, and he didn't think to remove
it ahead of time. Yeah, and man, I don't know
right exactly. And so he was the one to lower
Antonio and remove the chain. And as he was doing this,
(15:19):
the constable, a group of German American men went to
the Gomez family home, leave them alone, ordered them to
leave or they would kill the whole family, their son.
They just killed their son in the most violent, brutal
way possible. Yeah, and then they go to them and
demand them to leave or they'll kill them too. Who
(15:40):
these people think they fucking are? Man, Yeah, this tells
you who they think they are for sure. Oh yeah,
Oh my god. And so fearing for their lives, the
gomet family did. They went to retrieve Antonio's body, they
buried him, and they fled. I can't even imagine how
they must have felt seen him like that. I can't
trying to think about it is I can't really, it's horrible. So, yeah,
(16:02):
they went to retrieve his body, they buried him, and
then they immediately left for San Antonio. And you know,
it's terrible back then too. I mean, like a lot
of times people moved and they never came back to
where they were before, and so like they can't even
visit the grave site, you know, they can't. And that's
such an important thing for Mexican families. Yeah, I mean,
like I know, obviously it's like I mean, important to
(16:24):
a lot of people, but like I say this as
a Mexican you don't understand, like, we'll just sit there
and play music and cry and laugh. Yeah, and it
doesn't even have to be thea An Mortos, which is
obviously more special. But yeah, yeah, and they can't do
that because they had to leave. And surprisingly, unlike the
other lynjens that I discussed in the past several episodes,
(16:46):
this one was met with disgust even in the American medium.
You know why, because those German Americans, these non American Germans. No,
but that's good. The Dallas Morning News and you know
what sar I should say. It was the bigger cities
like San Antonio and Dallas who were appalled, Okay, who
even now have a reputation of being more liberal than
(17:10):
other areas of Texas. Yeah, so, the Dallas Learning News wrote,
the news is not capable of producing anything that could
express the horror and humiliation that it feels because of
the crime committed by a mob at Thorndale. They were disgusted.
San Antonio newspapers reported about the lynching in a similar fashion,
but nationwide newspapers reported that Thorndale's finest men simply took
(17:35):
matters into their own hands. Are you serious, what is
wrong with them? A tradition that is so disgusting, that's
like fucking gone. A tradition and culture of violence. Okay, yeah,
when you say what is white culture to me? Violence? Yes,
I mean I'm sorry from the beginning with Jennis and
colonization and slavery, yep, and then this kind of shit.
(17:57):
But it also reminds me of Trump when he when
the Charlottesville thing happened, and then he was like, there's
good people on both sides, and it's like, hello, only
one person with certain instead of believes killed somebody here.
And they always say that, I always say both sides,
both sides, and in the end, one side was extremely violent. Yes,
(18:18):
And of course the Thorndale Thorn fucking stupid name, stupid.
The Thorndale Thorn responded to this media coverage by Riddina
Antonio had stabbed Charles Ceashan without provocation, which was not true.
Even I'm sorry to say, even if he had stabbed
him without provocation, it doesn't warrant there's a level of violence.
(18:42):
It warrants a fucking arrest. Nothing would justify this. It
doesn't warrant Yeah, being brutally brutally killed, Like, that's crazy
to me. After the Thorndale thorn said that he did
this without provocation. Antonio did this without provocation. A Winness
came forward and gave the account that I said, the
first one where he was just playing with a carving
(19:02):
a piece of wood and then he was surrounded by men.
I just can't even believe this, and it happens now,
you know, in the same age, and it makes me
think of Trayvon Martin, who, yeah, like this is horrible. Literally,
what I was gonna say in today's lynch mob is
the police. Yeah, and that's why we should not join
the military or become comms because these are the system.
(19:25):
Yeah no, but I say this as a veteran, so
that's okay. The witness account led to the arrest of
the four Thorndale men who did this, which shocked the town.
Not the lynching. The lynching didn't shock the town. An
attempt to hold him accountable shocked them. Yep. This is
what they deserve, Like, I can't believe this, that's what
(19:46):
shocked them. Yeah, they deserve to be held accountable for this. Yeah, yeah, right,
And that's the system we have, so that's they're supposed
to go through the system like come on. So the
witness was a Mexican l named Antonio, very popular name
named Antonio Alvarez, of course, and Antonio Alavadez had to
be escorted to San Antonio because there were fears that
(20:09):
he was going to be lynched too for providing this testimony.
So he arrived to San Antonio safely, and him along
with the family was safe in San Antonio because unlike
these small tiny towns, there was a large Mexican community
in San Antonio where they could receive help from organizations
like La Agroup Basion Protect Mexicana, the Mexican Protection Group.
(20:32):
I guess what it would translate to. And they helped
them by providing protection, financial help and organizing a mass meeting.
And when they announced this mass meeting, they did so
by passing out flyers that stead of the following. The
Society has for its general purpose the protection of Mexican
citizens throughout the state of Texas and for the specific
purpose bringing to justice the perpetrators of the lynching of
(20:55):
Antonio Gomez at Thorndale and Antonio Rodriguez at Springs. I
shared last episode Wait how far apart did these things happen? Oh?
A year? Well, technically like six months if you look
at the time period, but they are a year if
you look at the number alone, like the year it happened,
like end of nineteen ten and then mid six months. Yeah,
(21:16):
six months. I guess what do I say? It like that? Oh?
Oh I see? I see? Yeah yeah yeah, so six
months apart. Sorry, sometimes i'd be saying shit that doesn't
making any sing. Wow. Yeah, I was confused a validor
response anyway, Yeah, six months apart? Like what the fuck
did she just say? They passed out these fires, and
they announced a June twenty ninth meeting, and the Mexican
(21:39):
Consulate begged them not to hold a meeting because they
were afraid of what would happened, but they did it anyway,
and more than three thousand people attended the meeting, three
thousand and During this meeting, they were like, well, what
what are the ne wow depths? And some people wanted vengeance? Right,
but then they're like, no, we can't be like them,
like we're not going to use violence, which is like
(21:59):
a very Mexican American thing to say, because it gone
I understand that feeling or mentality of not wanting to
be like because how many movements have there been within
the Latino Latino community in the US, and the biggest
thing is like be respectful, don't be like them. And
it's like I'm sorry sometimes yeah, yeah, I'm saying. I'm
(22:25):
saying and you know what, Sorry, I'm gonna go off
the side a little bit here, but I think sometimes
we need to act like Mexicans and in Mexico, are
you gonna say what I've did? You're gonna say? I
think so. But I don't remember her name, but she's
a creator on TikTok. Oh May, right, I want to say,
that's her name, Oh May, Yes, I think so, but
Oh May. She put out a video where she's like,
(22:46):
these cultures are very different and like this is not
what's on the point of the video. But in the
video she says that Mexicans in Mexico they like they
actually protest. It's like, real, what you're supposed to do.
You're supposed to disrupt, write whatever is happening, and like
that's not a thing here, and that's why the two
cultures can never be the same. And that's almost why
we can't even like progress here in the US because
(23:08):
we don't do it like them, and it's such as
Mexicans and Mexico it's like Latin America. They all movements
are like legit. Yeah, but you're not to discredit like
anyone that's you know, resisting and participating in organizations that
are opposing yeah, tyranny, brutal immigration policies and things like that.
But yeah, there's a big difference and the way that
(23:29):
people respond over there, like you know, they break shit
over there, but a lot of them are met with
the same comments about like how that's wrong, blah blah blah.
So yes, yeah, that's what they were debated in this meeting.
What do we do? How do we respond? And then
the end they're like, well, we need to demand justice
through the justice system. They had a petition where they
all signed it. They drafted a letter. They send it
(23:51):
to the US Department of State and the Department of
Foreign Affairs in Mexico City and Texas Governor Oscar coquit
replied what the letter, stating that he would send one
experienced ranger to investigate the situation. And I will say
as much as I've been sitting on the Texas rangers.
One of the things they did do was escort people
to protect them. Like the witness that I mentioned earlier,
(24:13):
he was escorted by a Texas ranger to San Antonio, Okay,
to avoid being lynched. But I add that sometimes during
these escorts they did the lynching themselves. So it's not
like a thing to celebrate. My god, it's like there's
like maybe one half decent apple in the bunch, and
that's why that whole apple a thing. It doesn't work
for me. It doesn't work in general statistically scientifically speaking. Right,
(24:37):
While the Mexican community came together to demand justice for Antonio,
the German community came together to defend the men that
were charged with the murder of Antonio. Comes because they
were the finest of Thorndale. Among them, those of the finest,
I don't want to be any of them, no, exactly.
Among them was the son of one of the founders
of Thorndale, of course. Yeah. And they were all part
(24:58):
of the or prominent members of that community, sons of
founders or like well connected families. Again Thorndale's finest men. Wow.
I mean again, if you have a tradition of violence
and colonialism. Then yeah, that is your finest men, of course. Yeah,
like that's what you value, so of course you think
that's just fine and dandy. All four men were indicted
(25:20):
for first degree murder on October twenty four to nineteen eleven.
They had separate trials, but jury selection was an issue
because they couldn't find anyone who did not have a
racial prejudice towards Mexicans. Of course. Yeah. Potential jurors were
asked if the same standard should be applied to a
Mexican defendant, if the circumstances were reversed, and whether the
(25:40):
punishment for the murder of a Mexican person should be
more or less severe than that for the murder of
a white person. And every single member of the jury
that they were screening scoffed or like laughed at the suggestion. Wow,
the question, It was suggestion, It was a question. Yeah.
So they all showed clear racial biases, not surprising. Eventually
(26:01):
they found a jury which again it was a racist jury.
So they had to go with the right cist because
there's no other option. There was no one else, no,
unless they moved the trial to like New York location.
So yeah, there was like no other jury members that
were not racists at all. I forget how many days
to find a journey for each trial, because again they
were separate trials. Wow, and each trial for each man
(26:25):
went the same. Witnesses were changing their stories, specifically witnesses
that were supposed to testify for the prosecution. Oh they're
probably scared. Hell yeah, like the last witness had to flee.
Oh wow, And one by one the men were all acquitted. No, yeah,
buy in all white racist jury. They and family members
sometimes and friends. This is why it scares me. Like
(26:48):
people that are founder like descendants of founders like these. Yeah.
How many people who have these kind of founding families
or like a long history in certain areas of the country.
How many of their ancestors can we traced back who
participated in some kind of lynch mob like this, whether
it was against a Mexican or black person, were Chinese
(27:10):
or indigenous person? Yeah, yes, exactly right. And even if
there was no lynching, how many of them held these
beliefs defended their family from this kind of shit and
they were acquitted. Yes at mat Hill. Like that woman
who on her deathbed confessed she went on her whole
life with this disgusting racist attitude, knowing she killed, she
(27:33):
got a little boy killed. Yeah, with their fucking lies
and her fucking racist shit of a family killed that boy.
And I off the top of my head right now,
I can't remember what kate became of them, But I
don't know. Did they get away with that? I don't remember.
I don't remember what it surprised me if they did, No,
but yeah, I don't remember. So yeah, like these people
(27:55):
that were quitted got away with it. A whole fucking town.
Hundreds of people that killed one little fourteen year old
boy had their own children that they raised with these beliefs.
And this is why we are where we are now,
this is what the same place, This is why we
are where we are. Yeah. Now, yeah, I thought you
said this is my Roman Empire, and I was like
(28:15):
mine two also, So yeah, one by one they were
all acquitted, and the fourth man, the charges were just
dropped against him because they were like, well, this's going
to be another acquittal, so why even go through the
trial and they just drop the charges. So the lynching
of a fourteen year old Mexican boy went unpunished. And again,
(28:38):
this is just one of many lynchings in the state
of Texas. A couple years after this, nineteen fourteen, a
fifteen year old fifteen year old Leon Martinez Junior was
lynched for allegedly killing Emma Brown, a white woman, in Beccles, Texas.
He met twenty six year old Emma Brown just one
week before she was found dead. The town was shocked
(28:59):
when she was found and evidence at the scene showed
that the attacker came from the east. There were bullet
holes in her buggy, one in her and she appeared
to have fallen from her buggy and then stabbed several
times after she had been shot. They found her the
next morning and the town immediately started looking for the killer,
and because several people saw her talking with Leon again,
a fifteen year old Mexican boy, he became the first
(29:22):
and only suspect because he was talking to her that day.
That's ridiculous and this is why mob violent is not
right or vigilante justice is not right, because how do
we know this person did it or not. That's why
we have a whole system to find this out, yeah,
which is flawed, and innocent people are convicted, sentenced to
death penalties, which is why we should also be against
(29:45):
the death penalty, because if one innocent person is in
jeopardy of being killed by the state, then nobody should
be killed by a state, right. I don't care if
you get mad, and if anyone gets mad about that, no,
I agree. Yeah, And it's the same thing, like this
boy probably had no nothing to do with this woman
being killed. And just because one racist person was like, oh,
a brown boy talking to a white woman, not a
(30:06):
mind watch, yeah, you know what I mean. Like, also,
she was twenty six, he was fifteen. It brings me
the question, why is she talking to him? That's what
I'm wondering. What the hell, what business does she have
talking to him? That's a real question. Obviously she shouldn't
have been killed. Bet is justation. Yeah, because these boys,
these teenage and we gam I mean, it's like the
(30:29):
story of Emma Hill again. Yes, they tried to say
that he was whistling at her. This is a little boy.
He probably didn't even look at you know what I mean,
And she made it up. Yeah, it's a hyper sexualization
of black boys and Latino boys. Yes, okay, I think
that's sorry. We can breathe a little bit. Yeah, so
(30:51):
they went looking for him right away, based on him
being seen talking to her for very briefly like minutes.
When they found him, he wasn't even attempting to run
or hide. He was going on about his usual day working.
He probably even know what was coming. He boss approached
him and asked if he knew anything about a murdered
woman from Saragoza, and he said no, and he went
on his way clueless. Really, a group of men surrounded
(31:12):
him as he was eating a watermelon and they demanded
that he confess. He kept saying he was innocent, but
the men kept threatening that they would to hang him
if he didn't confess. Then, when they promised not to
hang him if he confessed, he confessed. And this is
also why forced confessions are wrong. And these people aren't
even you know, anybody to be demanding confessions from anyone. No,
(31:34):
during his trial, his confession was introduced at the trial,
but not the way of getting that confession that ridiculous.
They didn't say he was forced, Yeah, they didn't say
he was berated by a group of men that were
wailder than him, were not even law enforcement, outnumbered, all
demanding he confessed or they would hang him. Oh my god,
that is a confession under threat or cursion is not
(31:57):
a confession obviously, No, it's come on, come on. During
the trial, this is the following story that was presented.
Emma Brown promised him sex and later they met at
their arranged time. But when she got there, okay, so
she was a peto. Yeah okay, but when she where
did they get thisation from? It's unknown? Wow, like supposedly
(32:17):
from him, but I don't believe it. Ah. Yeah, so
they said, yeah, Emma Brown had promised him sex and
later they met at their arrange time. But when she
got there, she said, you sent up a bitch. I'm
going to have you arrested. And he was like, that's
not necessary. I'm only there because you said you were
going to give me sex. His story doesn't even make sense. No,
it doesn't. Oh my god. She told him she would
(32:38):
kill him, and then she reached for her hip and scared,
he pulled out his weapon and shot her. This makes
zero sense. Then he went to eat, have dinner and work.
Who the hell goes to eat rather to kill someone?
I mean, some people do it, I guess, but what
the hell I mean? Some people do? But this doesn't
make any sense, but that's what they said. He said
during a confession or something. You can't even make up
(32:59):
a good fun story because they're stupid and they have
no creativity. No, they can't. Yeah, but he has a
different version of events, which I'm going to read it
from page eighty four of this book, and which I
fully believe a lot more than these stupid people. Yeah,
I am fifteen years and two months of age. Oh sorry.
They also kept saying he was eighteen. They kept insisting
he was eighteen, of course, to make it sound a
(33:20):
little more okay, that they're going to kill him. Okay,
so he said, I am fifteen years and two months
of age. It is not true that I'm eighteen years old.
I was born in eighteen ninety six. I did not
kill miss Emma Brown. I knew nothing of the murder
until the Mexican told me about it shortly before my arrest.
I never had any relations with miss Brown. I worked
in the store and post office at Saragosa and often
(33:41):
waited on her selling her some goods. On the morning
of the killing, I placed her goods in the buggy
and untied her horse. That was the last I saw
of her until I viewed the body. They made me
sign that confession. I told them I was innocent, but
they told me they would kill me if I didn't
sign a confession. I was frightened, and I did it.
They said that Miss Brown was killed about five o'clock
in the afternoon. I could have proved that I was
(34:02):
in the store in that hour, but they wouldn't let me.
I believe him. I believe him too wholeheartedly. Yeah. He
was declared guilty by the jury and then sentenced to
death pretty quickly after that. Hundreds and hundreds of letters
were sent to Governor Colquitt pleading for a pardon. He
was known to party in criminals. He gave out like
a thousand pardons a year and when he was governor,
(34:24):
so wow, it wasn't a reach to be like, can
you pardon this boy for something he didn't do? Right? Yeah,
So he received hundreds and hundreds of letters from people
in San Antonio, mostly advocating for him still, or to
at least give him a life sentence, but to let
him live, not to hang him. But nothing worked. He
was scheduled for his hanging on May eleventh, nineteen fourteen.
(34:45):
His only request was to wear the Mexican colors when
he was hanged. I I don't know why that did it.
This whole thing is horrible, and I think it's just
now catching up to me. Also though it happened because
he was Mexican, so of course he's got I gonna
we're the Mexican colors. I'm that's right. Yeah, on the
ridge of tears too. But I'm more mad right now
(35:06):
than angry, So that's why I haven't cried. But seriously,
fuck fuck them, Fuck them. He wore the Mexican colors,
and he stood on this scaffold and he said he
was innocent and a calm demeanor. And he was known
for his calm demeanor the whole time he was in jail.
Oh my god, he was fifteen. He was just a
(35:26):
little boy. Yes, let's all take a moment together, okay.
And I wanted to highlight these two cases because again
they are all the cases that we know of are important,
but these are two of the most well documented. One
marking the beginning of the matanza. One just kind of
like showing that it didn't fucking matter like to anyone
(35:47):
or any any of them, you know, lynching was legal.
His lynching was legal, and it goes to show. I mean,
I don't think we need to remind any of of
our listeners, because you guys are all, you know, geniuses
based based g yes. But what's legal is is not
always right. And that's why I wanted to talk about
these two specifically. They're not the same, but in some
(36:09):
sense they are. You know, yes, but they are. And
so that's why I pivoted to this for because I
know I said I was going to be getting into
the Texas Rangers. I'm not mad at you're pivoting. It's
just a little like you're not expecting it and then
it happens, which is fine. And even though it makes
us mad and we cry and it's infuriating and it's
(36:29):
sad that this was done to our people, it's important
to talk about these things because these attitudes did not
go away. They remain here, and we're seeing it in
this same age, and now we're seeing it perpetrated by
Mexicans too, extra Americans, maybe even the Techanos who were there,
you know, during this time and their families continued to
(36:49):
be in the area, and now all of a sudden,
they think they're not Mexican. But at the end of
the day, it doesn't matter how many generations you've been here,
you know, to the kind of people that enact this
kind of violence, they will never accept us, Like it
doesn't matter how deep you lick their boots, you know, exactly,
(37:12):
if you buy into whiteness like it doesn't it's not
gonna protect you, it's not gonna save you. Yes, I
don't want to go into another like rant, obviously, but
I want to say that, like at first, the people
that doesn't know their history, they don't have a future.
We need to know what happened to us. If we don't,
(37:32):
we're out here voting for Trump. Yeah again not Mexican men,
but Latino men. And that generalization is who helped him.
And again he's just part of a system. He's not
even the whole thing, right right, Besides the point, the
point is that we need to But and when we
talk about like buying into whiteness, like it doesn't mean
like the white person down the street. Whiteness and then
(37:53):
of itself is a system, yes, a system of colonialism,
yeah yeah, and uh yeah, colonization, And that's what we're
talking about. We're not talking I have white friends. Okay,
hashtag not hall white people. That's not the point though.
The point is to learn that this is what was
being done to us, and that's why you shouldn't be
voting for the people who were have this legacy right
(38:15):
or voting And I'm just gonna I'm gonna stop. And
now it's being done in the form of lynching your
mom violence. Today, it's ice, it's the cops, you know
what I mean? And what are we seeing Like just
this week alone, I've heard, well, within the last few weeks,
we've heard of how many teenagers And that's what I
(38:37):
thought of, Like when you mentioned the ages of these boys. Yes,
like we've seen teenagers being taken by ice, and of
course it happens, but I'm like, I mean, currently, I
know the high school junior Marcelo, he was freed, but
currently there's a fourth grader being in an ICE attention
center right now, being detained and a nice on his
(38:59):
parents away from his parent I'm like, why, Like, nobody
should be detained, but why add on that separation? And
this legacy of what we're talking about informs what is
happening today. Yeah, and yet you see Mexicans celebrating this
Mexican Mexican Americans sorry, saying like, oh, they should have
(39:20):
kill the Ray Green. It's like, shut the fuck up,
Shut the fuck up, just shut up for real. Yeah,
I don't. I can't even express how tired I am
of seeing this dumb ass shit. Even Oh, dependents knew
what they were getting into, they knew the consequences when
they brought their children here. They shut up. You're not
special because you were born here. You're not special if
(39:44):
if your parents came the supposed right way, which I
doubt they did. The right way was on a boat
to come and kill all the indigenous people who were
here and lynch Mexicans. That was the right way, and
then be white and come and just be let in
after that. Yeah, that's the only the right way other
than that, like you know, yeah, yeah, and we could
go on and on, but we won't. Let's not. You're right,
(40:06):
that should probably end because then, well, yeah, we'll go on,
and should we should? Yes? Next episode I will be
getting into the Texas Rangers and the Botivnid massacres specifically,
and then the hearings that follow the Putavinian massacre. The
canals hearings. So yeah, that's gonna be the next episode.
But yeah, other than that, I don't know. Go go
hug a little Mexican teenager, please, whether it's family, friends
(40:29):
like please, no, no, no no, do better than that.
Stand up for immigration, immigrant rights. Support your local immigration organizations.
If you can't be there in person, you can donate.
You can spread awareness so you can speak out against
these injustices because these things are wrong. They are wrong. Yeah,
don't let anybody make you think this is normal. Do
(40:50):
not make anybody make you think that they're going after criminals,
and even if they were criminals, don't let anybody think
that it's okay to treat anybody in this way. Yes,
thank you, thank you. They are always calling me in
I'm just kidding. Shut up. We hope this was one
lesson Storia Unknown for you. Bye bye. Astoria Unknown is
(41:12):
produced by Carmen and Christina, researched by Carmen and Christina,
edited by Christina. You can find sources for every episode
attias Unknown dot com and in our show notes. Creating
the podcast has a lot of work, so if you
want to help us out financially, you can do so
by supporting us on Patreon at patreon dot com. Slash
Studied as an own podcast
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