April 8, 2025 • 51 mins
The fascinating case of Lizzie Cyr begins with a simple arrest for "vagrancy" in 1917 Calgary and transforms into a landmark legal battle that would permanently alter women's rights in Canada.
When Lizzie Cyr, a 29-year-old woman of First Nations and European heritage, found herself homeless and accepted temporary lodging from an acquaintance named John James Ryan, she unknowingly stepped into legal history. After Ryan paid her for sex, claimed she infected him with gonorrhea, and attempted to blackmail her for medicine money, Cyr found herself arrested and standing before one of Canada's first female magistrates, Alice Jameson.
Enter John McKinley Cameron, Cyr's eccentric lawyer known for representing society's most marginalized people. With his trademark mismatched suits and sometimes rubber boots, Cameron skillfully exposed Ryan's hypocrisy during cross-examination, revealing that Ryan regularly visited sex workers and had contracted gonorrhea before. Despite this compelling defense, Magistrate Jameson abruptly sentenced Cyr to six months hard labor without allowing her to testify.
What happened next would change Canadian legal history forever. Rather than simply appealing the verdict, Cameron pursued a bold strategy – challenging Jameson's very right to serve as a magistrate on the grounds that women couldn't legally hold such positions. This challenge reached the Alberta Supreme Court, where Justice Stewart declared "in our province and in our time there is no legal reason to disqualify women from holding public office," making Alberta the first Canadian province to officially recognize women as legal persons with the right to hold public office.
While Lizzie Cyr disappeared from historical records after serving her sentence, her case became crucial in establishing women's legal personhood – a concept that would be further developed in the "Famous Five" case detailed in next week's episode. Join us for the conclusion of this unexpected legal journey that helped secure fundamental rights for Canadian women.
The Person Behind the Persons Case Written by Sarah Burton
http://canadashistory.ca/explore/women/the-person-behind-the-persons-case
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Oh, hey there, oh hey there, I'm Kate.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
And I'm Bradley and we are the History Buffoons.
That's right, yes, yes.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I'm well, how are you ?
I's right?
Yes, yes, yes.
How are you?
I'm well, how are you?
I'm good.
Yeah, yeah, excellent.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Yeah, it's kind of a long week, but yeah, it felt
like it.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, but you know, we made it through.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
We sure did.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
On to record another episode.
Why is that funny?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
another episode.
Why is that funny?
Um, because I killed it thisweek.
Yeah, yeah, how so?
Do tell lots of research, yes,lots of writing yeah just I
killed it what is it?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
writing for our podcast I know, I was joking yes
, I, I killed it.
All right.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I'm also excited because you surprised me with a
beer.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I did so.
As we've said hi Penny,multiple times on this podcast,
I like to drink Limey's SummerShandy.
It's my go-to everyday beer andwe were picking out podcast
beers a week or two ago and wesaw that Lainey's has a new
(01:29):
Lainey Lodge, lime.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Lainey Kugel has a Lainey Lodge Lime and it's a
bright lime green can and I loveit.
And tell them the style of beerthat it is.
It is a Mexican-style lagerwith natural lime flavor.
Yeah, which is right up youralley, because you love your
medellos I sure do with a limetypically so and, if you didn't
(01:52):
know, line of kugel is frommilwaukee well, it's from
chippewa falls, but they justactually it's from chippewa
falls and also milwaukee so theyjust recently apparently I saw
something on this they justrecently closed operations down
at the original brewery.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Really, I believe I saw that?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Oh, so are they just full-time in Milwaukee now.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, but they're from up in Chippewa Falls, so
the Limey Lodge, which is theirstore and beer room, and
everything is still there.
However, apparently they don'tbrew any beer out of there
anymore is what I saw.
I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I didn't look into it what kind of beer do you have?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
oh dear.
I got caught on my quad so Ihave a beer.
That's been long awaiting totry.
Oh, okay, didn't have tointerrupt, but here we are.
So, as you know, our first fan,Al Al.
He is still in the beerbusiness.
(02:53):
That's where he and I met many,many, many, many, many years
ago, and he currently lives outin Nevada and he works for a
couple breweries that he's partof, I guess, and one of them is
Avery, and they have a MaharajaIPA.
He told me, because he knows Ilike IPAs, that I should try
(03:13):
this, and then I went to thestore.
Couldn't find it.
Couldn't find it.
Ooh, I found it.
Holy balls, it's almost 15bucks a six pack, holy crap.
So the first time I saw it, I'mlike I'm going to wait.
I guess I just wasn't preparedto spend $15 on a six pack at
that time it better be good.
However, this week I wasprepared, apparently because I
(03:34):
currently have a six pack here.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Maharaja.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Maharaja, and so it's an Imperial India Pale Ale 10%.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Holy schmuckies.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, so I have two of these queued up.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
I have two Linen Kugels queued up.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I might be feeling a little saucy at the end of this
episode.
So thanks for the suggestion,al.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Here we go, oh, yes, yes, oh my gosh, I can't wait
for this.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I'll let you try it first.
Usually we choose each other,but oh yeah, cheers, I'll have
another sip.
It's pretty good, can you, isit?
Speaker 1 (04:12):
it's not too limey no , that's not too limey.
I still prefer modelo, sure,but this is a great little
substitute.
Okay, I like it.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
There you go yeah, I will keep drinking it, for sure
it will not go to waste, Ipromise you?
Yeah, I will keep drinking itfor sure it will not go to waste
.
I promise you.
Yeah, At least keep drinking ituntil all six are gone.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah absolutely, yeah , absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's our new term.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, absolutely All the kitties are put away except
for Penny and Amos.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
That's really good.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Oh, yeah, yeah, Hold for uh penny and amos.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
That's really good.
Oh yeah yeah, hold on while Itake a second sip worth the 15
yes, thanks al.
Uh, great choice, or asuggestion?
Um, the funny thing is I toldhim how much I got it for and
he's like that's a great price.
Oh wow, but he also lives outin nevada so not sure what the
pricing is out there.
Yeah, definitely could be alittle higher, but that's really
(05:09):
good.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
So it is now like mid-afternoon.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
And Amos is pretty on the dot when it comes.
Well, actually, he's really not.
He's fairly early when it comesto wanting to be fed and he is
the most vocal out of all fiveof them put together.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Oh, hands, all of them put together.
I've been over to your houseclose to feeding time.
I swear he yells at me.
It's what he's doing, oh my God.
He walks around and just yells,and then he'll walk up to you
and yell.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah.
So to say he's the most vocalis an understatement yeah, but
like you can't really pick himup or like snuggle him because
and he's a scaredy cat, he'slike the quintessential scaredy
cat yeah, that's pretty much.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
If he was alive when they created that term, they
would show a picture of him.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, he would be in the dictionary as Scaredy Cat
aka Amos, so if he interrupts usduring this, that is why it's
almost dinner time.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
That's all right, we'll make do.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, okay, I want one more drink before we move on
to this, sorry.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I'm glad you like it, though I know you said you like
your Medela better, but I'mglad you're enjoying it.
It's got a limey taste likelike your summer shandy.
Sure it does have that, butyeah, they, they have obviously
a distinct kind of process andnow that it's all uh macro
through milwaukee, which isunfortunate.
I liked it better when theywere just up in the chippewa
(06:38):
falls.
But yeah they've been brewingthem down in milwaukee for some
time, so that's also why summershandy's year round nowadays.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
So okay, you're ready for this I'm ready for this.
Let's do this okay, so thisstory came from nathan.
Okay, he heard it off of the tvshow letter kenny I know of it.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
I've never watched it same yeah, he finds it
absolutely hilarious I think itwas my brother, one or both my
brothers, unless I'm mixing up ashow, but yeah, I've heard and
I think it's a Canadian show, Ibelieve that's correct.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yes, so for some reason this Canadian comedy show
talked about a particular story.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
And I'm going to talk about it today.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Okay, Well, I kind of gathered that.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Based on my intro.
Yes, okay, good.
Yes, I did the thing you didsomething.
Okay, so we are going to talkabout Lizzie Sear.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Sear Like S-E-E-R.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
No, her last name is spelled completely different
okay her last name is spelledc-y-r.
Oh sure yeah lizzie seer.
Okay, so not much is knownabout her other than through her
arrest records is she canadiantoo?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
she is, so you're to tell me what's all about her.
What's all about?
What's it all about?
Speaker 1 (08:05):
So she was 5'6".
Brown eyes, dark complexion.
She was born in Canada.
She has First Nations andEuropean heritage.
She was born in 1888.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
1888, wow.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
So at the time of our story she was 29 years old.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
That's two stories in a row that you mentioned 1888.
Why88, wow, so at the time ofour story she was 29 years old.
That's two stories in a rowthat you mentioned 1888.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Why do you have the memory that you do?
Oh my God.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
The funny thing is you meant to say 1889.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
1888.
Okay, this is, I'm going toshow you a picture of Lizzie
Sear.
She's supposed to be 28.
I mean she is 28.
Wait, she's 28 in that picture,but doesn't she look like the
unsinkable Molly Brown orsomething.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
She looks like she was rode hard and put away wet
for sure, Holy balls.
Yeah, and she does look likethe unsinkable Molly.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Brown, she does.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Wasn't she like 60, though, or something like that
she's 29.
Actually, she was probably 40,but that was 1912.
Actually, she was probably 40,but that was 1912.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, wow, okay, so her occupation.
In her arrest record said wife,okay, and she was arrested for
being a wife.
Vagrancy.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Oh, she was a vagrant .
Speaker 1 (09:18):
They called sex workers vagrants at that time.
Oh okay so she was arrested forvagrancy Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Okay, so her vagrancy had a vacancy.
Did she like to fill it?
Wow, wow.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Podcast gold.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Are you sure?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Nope, okay, actually, I'm pretty sure it's the
opposite.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Pretty sure it's turning my finger.
Gold I mean green.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Here on History, buffoon's podcast.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
It's turning my ears green.
There it is Wow Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
It's more like some fool's gold over there Super
fool.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Okay, the guy who basically got arrested.
His name is John James Ryan, sois that how?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
they got a John as the name.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
John James, he's starting early.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Oh hey, dinner time.
I mean it's not, but dinnertime.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So he gets her arrested on May 17th 1917.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
They did know each other for a while, and just a
few days before this arrest shewas down on her luck.
She had no money, nowhere to go, and because they knew each
other, he let her stay at hisplace.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
So if she was listed as wife, where was her husband?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
They were getting a divorce.
I believe.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
So they were estranged, yeah, in a way.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
So, okay, fine he.
So they were estranged.
Yeah, Okay, fine, he lets herstay right.
Sure, yeah, and then he paysher $10 to make a holla.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, wait, make him holla.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Whatever Doesn't matter, no judgment.
But she gets sick the next day.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Oh dear.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
And so she's stuck at his place for another night,
essentially.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Oh man, so another $10?
.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
By Sunday, though.
John James Ryan how boring of aname, I mean pretty.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
I know Pretty.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
By Sunday, he's had enough, and he kicks her out.
Okay, a few by Sunday, he's hadenough, and he kicks her out.
Okay, a few days later he getssick.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Oh dear.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Of the Rhea.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
The Ghana.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
The Ghana of the Rhea .
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Wow, that sucks.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
He has gonorrhea.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Well, I bet she does too.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
And of course he blames Lizzie.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Well, why wouldn't he ?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
but you know what he's had, this fucking disease
before yeah, it's probably fromhim, yeah and instead of going
to the doctor, he goes straightto the drugstore that's weird
and then he tries to blackmailher.
Okay, if you pay for my meds, Iwon't call the cops.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
But so I'm confused.
What is he calling the cops on,though?
Vagrancy?
I mean, that seems kind ofloose at this point.
Ba-dum-bum, thank you, glad yougot that, but you know what I
mean.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Well, she tells him where to go Straight to
H-E-double hockey sticks, hey.
We're a family show and he callsthe cops on her of course so
they grab her that afternoon andshe's literally got nothing to
her name.
She doesn't even have a dime inher pocket okay, crazy.
So seer was charged undersection 238a of the criminal
(12:42):
code, which, and I quote Nothaving any visible means of
substance, is found wanderingabroad or lodging in any barn or
outhouse or any deserted orunoccupied building or any cart
of wagon, or in any railwaycarriage or freight car or in
(13:03):
any railway building, anyrailway carriage or freight car
or any railway building, and nothaving a good account of
himself or who, not having anyvisible means of maintaining
himself, lives withoutemployment.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
They're really specific about locations.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I mean that's pretty wild that they would, I mean
outhouse.
I mean seriously, I mean Iunderstand the time.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
So, all in all, she's a criminal Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
She's a vagrant.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
So Lizzie Sears' arrest was rather commonplace,
obviously unsavory, but it wouldhave faded into obscurity,
right Sure to obscurity right,sure.
However, it became a catalystfor a major legal development,
(13:50):
oh dear, which I will get intolater I hope so, because now I'm
intrigued you are on the edgeof your seat.
I mean just kidding, he'sreally not.
He's sitting far back into thecouch with his legs up and beer
in his pocket.
Whatever you're in my pocket Iwas actually gonna sing your
pocket the day after her arreston may 18th 1917.
Yeah, lizzie sear went to courtwhat's her name?
(14:12):
Sear, lizzie sear lizzie okayno jury of course.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Why would they have one?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
vacancy wasn't considered serious enough for
that, so she was left solely tothe mercy of the magistrate.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Ooh magistrates.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
With only her lawyer, John McKinley Cameron, to
represent her.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So John McKinley Cameron was quite the character.
Yeah, he was a lawyer from NovaScotia, oh, which is, you know,
on the east coast of Canada?
Sure, okay, he started outrepresenting mine workers.
They moved out West to Calgary,alberta oh, do you know where
Alberta is?
Uh?
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Canada.
Yes, I am not wrong.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
It's like the second to last on the Western Cause.
What's?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
the furthest West one Cause.
That's where Vancouver is right.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Correct.
Okay yeah, so it's BritishColumbia on the far west and
then Alberta.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
You would think I'm 45 and I fucking don't know any
of this.
I know.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
I'm just as bad.
I actually did a lot ofresearch on the maps and stuff
talking about this case.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Because I knew where Vancouver was.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I knew that was British Columbia.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah, I know of Toronto, I don't know which,
which territory.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
is that in?
Is that Manitoba?
I don't fucking know.
Oh shit, no, we're just we're,we're buffoons?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, we are, I mean.
I mean we pretty much alreadycalled, called ourselves out,
but Hold up, Cameron.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
He's now in Alberta, Calgary, yes, okay, which is
like central Alberta, but liketo the west, or, excuse me, to
the south, central to the south.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I have a question.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Bradley with his hand up.
Do you know the hockey team inCalgary's name?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
No.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
The Flames.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
All right Trivia.
No the Flames.
All right Trivia folks.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
There you go.
Their logo is a C with someflames coming off the back.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah, anyway, hockey eh.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Cameron opened his own firm and criminal law was
his focus.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Okay.
So he was brilliant.
Everyone said so.
He knew the criminal codeinside and out.
But he was also kind ofunconventional.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
He would wear mismatched suits.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
I feel like they make movies about people like this.
Probably, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Mismatched suits, sometimes even rubber boots, in
court.
What yes?
He'd occasionally sleep in hisgarage loft with his hunting
dogs Aw, that's cute.
So a little quirky, a littlequirky, a little eccentric, but
he was serious about his work.
He took on cases that otherlawyers wouldn't touch,
especially when the clients weresuper poor or fringes of
(16:54):
society kind of thing Minors,immigrants, vagrants, so sex
workers you know, a whole, buthe had a real sense of justice.
So it seems.
Well, that's a positive yeah,I'm gonna take a swig because
you would.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
You would hope that he has, you know, kind of that
demeanor to try and help theselowlifes.
We'll just call them, for lackof a better term, yeah, um, or
unfortunate people, whatever youwant to say so.
I mean down on their luck yeah,it's nice to have someone
fighting for the little guy.
Yeah, I sound like I'm apolitician there.
Yeah, absolutely, and the funnything is, politicians never
(17:33):
fight for the little guy anywaysokay.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
So right from the get-go, cameron, the lawyer went
on the attack yeah, of courseyou gotta fucking fight, fight,
fight yeah, so he immediatelydeclared, uh, the charge against
sear as having no basis,pointing out that many women in
Calgary didn't earn an income.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
But also weren't considered vagrants.
Sure Okay, he entered a notguilty plea.
He argued that the magistratedidn't have the legal authority
to try the case because themagistrate was a woman.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Well, shit.
So, Ryan, why does that matter?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Oh, I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Okay, good.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Uh-huh.
So Ryan the John yeah, johnRyan, he gets up to testify
first, testify brother yeah, andCameron, just John Ryan, he
gets up to testify first,testify brother yeah, and
Cameron, just like nails him.
So he's sharp, you know, but healso got this kind of like
witty edge, so he basically usesRyan's own words to make him
look.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Like an idiot Less than virtuous.
Sure, oh yeah, that too.
Gonorrhea.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, and it really made you wonder, like, how much
ryan was actually like what hewas saying was actually true,
right.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
So now my favorite part of this whole thing oh, my
word, you and I bradley, you andI, we're gonna role play.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Oh, jesus, is this what you put on my computer.
I put a file on his computerand we're gonna to read it
together.
This is his first time readingit.
Oh, my word so if he flubs,that's only because he's
sightseeing.
Sightseeing, no sightreading,that's the word.
He's sightreading.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
The worst part is I never learned how to read.
Is that all true?
Everything but the reading part.
Sorry, that's from a movie Name.
That movie Give you $5.
But the reading part sorry,that's from a movie name that
movie give you five dollars, Idon't know, cool I saved five
dollars, folks.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
What was it from wayne's world?
Oh, I've only seen that likeonce.
It's not my fault open to yourcomputer.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Oh, I don't.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I wasn't told that I should actually do it yes, we're
gonna role play and you shouldhave the document pulled up says
Bradley, read the red portions.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yes, that's right, good job okay.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
So I am playing Cameron the lawyer, and you are
playing Ryan the John.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Let me get into character here.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
All right.
So when did you consult adoctor about your gonorrhea?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
I did not consult a doctor about it.
When it started running, I wentto the drugstore and bought
some medicine.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I'm sorry running it's got to be some kind of
discharge.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I'm just reading what's here in front of me.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I know I'm putting in commentary, oh okay, okay, back
to cameron because you made mefeel stupid about that back to
cameron.
When was that?
The day before yesterday whatdoctor did you see?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I did not see any doctor.
I went to mr mcgill and toldhim what.
What was the matter?
And he said I know the medicineyou need.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Are you still running at large, Jesus Christ?
What the running.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I am not running at large.
I have got a home and workingevery day.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Got a family.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
No, I am not married.
I rent a home and I stay athome every night.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
You are going to behave yourself and leave the
girls alone until you are cured.
Yes, I am okay.
So here's the thing cameron waswas driving it.
Yeah, so he made it clear thatwhat?
Ryan wasn't exactly a modelcitizen when he came to public
health.
Right, he pointed out that ryanhad contracted the disease
before and, by his own admission, he was a regular client of sex
(21:19):
workers.
Right, so cameron's argumentargument was that Ryan was just
as likely, if not more, tospread the disease.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Sure, Makes sense.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
By sleeping with other women, he'd be the one
creating a chain reaction,spreading it through the city.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Right Spreading it.
Wow, that's Spreading, yes,epidemic.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Me as Cameron Outside of getting diseased, was there
any other objection to her?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
the objection was I did not want to keep a
prostitute in the house and shedid not want to leave.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
I mean touche you took the prostitute to your
house yes, for one night andafter one dose of gonorrhea you
thought you should not have aprostitute in your house.
You are sure you are absolutelyvirtuous and could not have
gotten it from any other woman.
So Cameron really dug into Ryanat this point.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Okay, I don't mean to interrupt.
I just read the next two andit's fucking fantastic.
It's so basic but it's so great.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Okay, so Ryan wasn't exactly known for his monogamy.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Clearly.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
He admitted to seeing other sex workers.
So Cameron basically asked howcould he possibly pinpoint
Lizzie?
Ryan's answer was that she wasthe only one he'd been with
recently.
Cameron, with his like dry wit,just replied you are very
moderate.
What do you do for a living?
(22:50):
I work.
That is so great.
Are you working now?
Speaker 2 (22:55):
well, if I was not here, I would be working this
afternoon at the CentralMethodist Church.
I mean, he's verystraightforward.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yes, I think you will contaminate the church.
Are you still going to work forthe church?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yes.
The adjudant oh yeah, there,Look at that I should read
forward.
The adjudant phoned me down atthe Salvation Army.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Did you reveal to him that you had gonorrhea?
Speaker 2 (23:25):
No, I did not.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
What work are you going down there?
Because we do not want anepidemic to break out in the
church.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Epidemic of gonorrhea .
Speaker 1 (23:34):
She is charged that on the 17th day of May she had
no visible means of support.
You don't know that.
She is a decent married woman.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
I have seen her around.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
It takes two to have sexual intercourse.
Are you a decent man?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I guess I am working and earning my living.
What the fuck.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I wish I was in this courtroom to see this, because I
would just be laughing thewhole fucking time.
Seriously, I guess I am workingand earning my living.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Okay, so Cameron definitely got the better of
Ryan and Cor, but Ryan wasn'tnaive, he knew the system.
Being a man with a steady job,working at a church, no less
less, and a place to live, hehad a clear advantage.
It's why he probably felt safereporting seer, even though he
was basically admitting to hisown involvement, sure, and he
(24:29):
understood the public sphere ofvenereal disease and how
prejudiced they were againstcertain groups.
Yeah, it makes sense.
So you see.
Well, calgary had been prettylax about vagrancy and
prostitution in the past.
Things had changed.
By the 1910s there was a realpush for moral reform driven by
church groups, citizenorganizations and women's groups
, and they were putting pressureon the police to clean up the
(24:51):
city.
All right, and the police wereresponding.
They got more organized undernew chiefs and they were really
cracking down, closing down allthe brothels in the city.
Okay, so beyond just like moraloutrage, there was a huge fear
of venereal disease, sure, andeven though it affected everyone
, it was mostly blamed onquote-unquote, immoral women.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Well, yeah, because they're the ones who got around
to yes the or whatever.
Blah, blah blah.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yes, historian David Bright points out that women
were so worried about publichealth that they were willing to
overlook individual rights.
So, with that kind ofatmosphere, plus the existing
prejudice against Métis, which Iwill explain, and indigenous
women.
Lizzie Sear was really upagainst it from the start.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Oh 100%.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Matisse refers to a distinct indigenous nation
descended from unions betweenindigenous peoples and Europeans
Okay, and is one of the threerecognized indigenous peoples in
Canada, along with FirstNations and Inuit.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Really.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
And we've talked about Inuit in the Whiskey War,
origin of Weird Story.
Sure have Mm-hmm Wow okay.
So Ryan strategically paintedSear as a threat to public
health, constantly mentioningher infection, sure, and he went
so far as to say she shouldn'tbe running around carrying that
disease doing this and that.
(26:20):
He also added fuel to the fireby mentioning her separation
from her husband Even moredamaging insinuating an improper
connection with a Chinese man.
Now he knew that, given theera's deep-seated prejudice,
this would further discredit herright and I will say, the next
(26:43):
role-playing section.
Here chinaman is mentioned.
However, they had a derogatoryterm and I'm not allowed, I'm
not willing to say that.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
so you're allowed to say you just don't want.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I don't want to say there's a difference so the
derogatory word is now going tobe called china man.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Okay can I ask you it later?
Speaker 1 (27:04):
off off of sure sure but you are going to begin this
section, sure am.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Go ahead, ryan I knocked at the door and it was
locked.
A few minutes after she openedthe door and a china man was in
the room with her.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
The China man was there for the laundry.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
The door was locked.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Did you warn the Chinese man against her?
Speaker 2 (27:25):
No, when the Chinese man seen me, seen me, he walked
out.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
You don't know if he took anything away with him or
not.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
No, they were in the room together and the room was
locked, wow.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
How do you know you have gonorrhea?
Did you consult a doctor?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
It started running.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
What started running.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
My penis started running After a man gets one
dose.
He knows a little about it.
I'm sorry, Hold on.
I got to redo that one After aman gets one dose, he knows a
little about it.
Sorry, I have to.
I'm trying to get intocharacter here.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
You did not consult a doctor.
No, that's funny.
So after Ryan, they called thearresting officer, William
Simons, to the stand.
Okay, Also thank you for therole playing.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yes, you're welcome.
Thank you for the role playing.
Yes, you're welcome.
Thank you for uh.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
thank you for the interactive uh podcast so
cameron started questioning himabout the arrest and it turns
out seer admitted to taking theten dollars.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Okay, but there was zero proof she'd given ryan the
disease so there's also probablyzero proof that she actually
did anything with him.
I mean, there's literally noproof except for word of mouth
from these two people Word ofmouth.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
He said, she said yeah exactly Literally, he said,
she said so Cameron was prettydirect, asking Simons you don't
know anything about the facts,you don't know if she gave you
him gonorrhea or anything.
And Simons admitted no, justwhat he told me just a chinaman,
wait what okay, but then out ofnowhere, in the middle of the
(29:08):
arresting officers questioning,I guess yeah, judge, or the
magistrate, yes, alice jamesonso she was still, and are you
gonna get into why she shouldn'thave been on this?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yes, okay, cool.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Out of nowhere.
Magistrate Alice Jamesoninterrupts.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Lizzie Sear, six months hard labor at McLeod.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
You can't just fucking do that.
Cameron was stunned Well yeah,like, how does she, like she's
hearing this testimony orwhatever, and just says, no,
fuck it Hard labor Six months.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Sear didn't even have a chance to defend herself.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, that's bullshit .
Speaker 1 (29:52):
And Cameron was furious.
He said to the to the judge Ishall see that your decision is
overruled.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Fucking A right Mm-hmm.
I wish he had a gavel of hisown.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
So it's really shocking, especially considering
Jameson was appointedspecifically to give women a
fair trial, and it seems likeshe completely missed the mark.
Clearly, and according tohistorian John McLaren, female
magistrates brought a uniqueviewpoint to the bench, quite
different than males in the sameposition.
(30:24):
The difference really showed inhow they dealt with the vice,
especially with women, who wereseen as wayward, like sex
workers.
They were particularly outragedby how young women were being
exploited and they felt thatmale officers, prosecutors and
judges were often too lax,unfair and even insensitive in
how they applied the law.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Oh dear.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Now, just because they were women, it didn't mean
that female magistrates weregoing to go easy on vagrant
women.
Well, of course not.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Because, depending on their mindset and whatever
they're going to be like, fuckthis bitch.
She's giving us a bad name,exactly.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Exactly mindset and whatever they're going to be
like.
Fuck this bitch.
Yeah, she's giving us a badname, exactly exactly so.
While they might have shownsome leniency towards younger
women or first-time offenders,they were pretty tough on anyone
that was like unrepentant orhardened, so to speak.
Sure, so figures like jamesonand emily murphy, who was the
other female magistrate at thattime okay, so there's only two
women magistrates at this time?
Sure, they really believe thatthese women needed to be locked
(31:22):
up for their own good, to reformthem essentially.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, because that's always worked.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Maybe Jameson looked at Sears' record and decided
that she needed a wake-up callor something.
Okay, but in the four yearsleading up to her arrest, sears
had been arrested a few times,mostly for being drunk and once
for vagrancy.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Oh, so she was arrested once prior to this For
vagrancy.
Yes, Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
So she's not a first-time offender.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Right, right right.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
The longest she'd served was 60 days for that
vagrancy charge.
Oh wow.
So when she came before Jamesonagain, she got the absolute
maximum sentence allowed by law.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Which is the six months, mm-hmm, okay.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
So she actually did kind of get off relatively
lightly.
Jameson could have added like ahefty time or hefty fine on top
of prison time, but she didn'tSure, and I will tell you like
what Cyr did, okay.
So Jameson was kind of in atough spot.
Cameron the lawyer, hischallenge to her authority
(32:25):
during sears trial was probablyjust one of many that jameson
faced.
Sure he'd questioned herqualifications just seven months
later again, jesus.
so it must have been incrediblystressful for jameson and she
actually did speak about this inan interview with the Calgary
Daily Herald in 1920.
She said quote being the firstwoman magistrate was no position
(32:48):
to excite envy, I assure you.
She admitted she had to dealwith a lot of prejudice from
lawyers and the police.
She described feelingcompletely unwelcome when she
first started and even thoughtabout quitting.
But then she said to herself,quote well, I'm here and I'm
here to stay.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
So it's possible Jameson was just trying to prove
herself.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
It sounds like that's a very good possibility.
Hard to say, for sure, but Imean that's not uncommon, I
guess, for people to do that,yeah, so to do that.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yeah, so, but historian david bright points
out that in 1917, being aprostitute or a vagrant wasn't
really about proving specificcrimes, right, it was more about
proving someone's lifestyleokay so and that's what happened
with seer sure.
so ryan, basically the, the johnryan basically painted a
picture of her as someone wholived a certain way.
He mentioned her infection,which was used to label her as
(33:43):
being immoral.
He said he'd seen her aroundsaying that she was a known
offender, and he highlightedthat she was broke, had left her
husband and associated withother considered undesirable.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Do you think someone would really go around saying
that, like saying those things?
I mean, that just doesn't seemright.
If there's something in it forhim, I guess Well yeah, but I
mean I don't know, I just findthat weak.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Anyway, sorry, no, that's okay.
So John McKinley Cameron wasnot one to take defeat lightly.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
No, I mean he wore rubber boots to court women, so
bold, I mean in case it flooded.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Exactly, he was going fishing afterwards.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Maybe he's got to get them trout.
Yeah, I heard they got somegood fishing up in Canada.
My dad went fishing in Canada.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he wassupposed to take me.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
still waiting, dad, just kidding so cameron was
actually known for hispersistence and appearing before
the alberta supreme court ofappeal more than any other
lawyer in a 20-year span.
Wow, he's like.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Fine, I'll go to your boss I'll go to your boss, fuck
you man so after losing kind oflike I'm sorry yeah it's kind
of like I'd like to speak to themanager.
I always like to speak to yourmanager.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
So after losing lizzie sears case in jameson's
court, he wasn't about to let itgo he's like fuck this, whether
it was simple stubbornness orsomething deeper.
He decided to challenge notonly the verdict, but also
Jameson's right to be amagistrate.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Okay, damn, going for the guns here, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Because if she isn't allowed on the stand, then it's
going to get overturned,essentially.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
And he would win that case with Sear.
He's basically going throughthe back door.
Yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Dirty.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
He, of course, went to.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Justice David Scott of the Alberta Supreme Court.
Okay, Scott dismissed hisapplication even though he
admitted he had his own doubtsabout women holding office.
Wow, that wasn't misogynisticat all he basically said quote I
have my reservations, but thisisn't the right way to challenge
it it's funny.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
It's funny that he he did not want.
He clearly showed his hand thatwomen are inferior.
Yeah, and again we're talkingabout the 1912 yeah, 1917 to
1920.
So I get it.
I understand the time frame andthe mindset back then, but it's
like he didn't care for thosepeople in those positions.
(36:23):
But he's like yeah, but youstill can't do it this way, so
it's really kind of funny.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Yeah, I agree, but no .
Speaker 2 (36:29):
He's like yeah, but no, it's just funny because
clearly again different times100 years ago.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
And you get these people that are like women
should be in the home doing mylaundry and making dinner and
blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
But there's obviously women in these certain high
positions.
But he's like no, we're stillnot going to go about it that
way.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, he agreed.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
By his statement.
Yeah, he clearly is like Iagree with you, but we just
can't do it that way.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
So I mean, at least he had some morals, even though
he's a fuck Undeterred, camerontook it to the appellate
division of the Supreme Court ofAlberta.
This time, justice Beck,stewart, cj Harvey and JJ Walsh
also rejected his appeal.
Oh okay, but Justice Stewartwas very clear about his stance.
(37:20):
He said, quote we shoulddeclare that in our province and
in our time there is no legalreason to disqualify women from
holding public office.
And then he went on to say thatthey were returning to a more
progressive view from the MiddleAges, rather than the more
restrictive views that hadbecome popular in the 19th
(37:40):
century.
So with that ruling, albertamade history.
Oh shit, I always sayProvidence, providence to
officially recognize women aslegal persons with the right to
hold public office.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
So progressive.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
The Calgary Daily Herald even ran a headline that
said judges find that MrsJamison is legally appointed.
Oh, Jesus Christ.
But the rest of Canada?
Not so so much didn't see itthat way tell us about it, I
will sweet jameson continued herwork as magistrate and she
(38:26):
eventually retired comfortablyin 1931.
Wow cameron meanwhile kept uphis successful career.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Good, for him.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
He kept practicing law into the 1930s and passed
away in 1943.
Oh, and now, because Jameson'sability to judge was confirmed,
they also validated Sears'sentence.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Of course Makes sense .
Speaker 1 (38:49):
So she served six months at the Northwest Mounted
Police Barracks in Fort McLeod.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
There it is Sure.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Which is about an hour and a half south of Calgary
, right In pretty awfulconditions it was crowded, poor
ventilation.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well, you had said it's hard labor too.
Oh, this is Right.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yes, but we don't know what that hard labor was,
unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yeah, I mean it could have been chopping down trees
or hunting Sasquatch, we don'tknow.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Or picking up a boulder walking 30 feet, putting
down a boulder.
Going back picking up a boulderwalking 30 feet, putting down a
boulder.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
The problem is when you say boulder every time.
I know you're not a big IndianaJones fan or I haven't seen
them that much, but I just thinkof the first movie and I'm just
like the boulder rolling down.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
So so that reference was a movie with, um, robert
redford.
Okay, uh, the last castle, Ithink, is the name of the movie
james gandolfini that's right.
Yeah, one of his punishments asa prisoner was to pick up a
massive boulder, walk 30 feet,put it down and go back and pick
up another boulder, and it wasmassive and heavy I guess.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I just think a boulder is being bigger than
someone being able to pick up,so maybe a giant rock, but
either way a very large rock.
Yes, okay, so in 1920 1922 yeah, good year a lizzie sear.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
We don't know if it's the lizzie sear, but a a Lizzie
Sear was working.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
So there could be multiples.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Lizzie Sear was working as a waitress at the
King Edward hotel in PinscherCreek near Fort McLeod.
Okay, there were other peoplewith the last name Sear there,
so maybe she connected withfamily at that time.
Sure.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Possible.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
But after that, lizzie Sear kind of fades into
historical records Obscurity,yeah, lizzie Sear kind of fades
into historical records,obscurity, yeah.
So it is pretty sad because itis pretty common that a lot of
Matisse sex workers ended upthat way.
Sure, so remember I said thatthere was a major legal
development earlier yes, you hadmentioned that, yes and that
(40:51):
the rest of Canada didn'trecognize women as legal persons
with the right to hold publicoffice.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
So with the whole not recognizing them to be legal
persons?
What exactly does that?
Speaker 1 (41:03):
mean oh, I will tell you oh thank goodness Because.
But, yes.
You have to wait.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Oh fucking shit.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
For part two of this story, which will be next week.
Hey, this is a two-parter.
Hey, just so you know numbertwo, you don't have to role play
with me.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Oh, thank God, Good Lord.
So you get to wait to see whathappens I'll be waiting with
baited breath I was gonna saythat, but I was trying to think
of something more canadian.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I got nothing baited bruce, baited bruce what's it
all about?
Okay, this is our very firsttwo-parter.
How do you feel about that?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
I feel weird because we've talked about, because you
don't know the ending of thestory yeah, I feel like
cliffhangers aren't my thang.
Yeah, um, but we've talkedabout doing two-parters before
and we just kind of squeeze itinto a longer episode.
We do, and we usually like tokeep our episodes around a
(42:18):
certain time frame, just, youknow, because we don't want to
lose Al's interest.
But yeah, no, it's weirdbecause now I don't know and
it's kind of infuriating.
I want to know what's all about.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
This beer is really good though.
Well, I will tell you, it doesinvolve what is known as the
Famous Five.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Fox Force Five.
Do you know what movie that'sfrom?
No, pulp Fiction, great movie.
Don't remember that part.
Pulp Fiction.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Ah yes, great movie Don't remember that part?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
It's the pilot she did for the TV because John
Travolta's character fuck,vincent Vega took Mia Wallace
out.
Wow, you didn't just slam yourbeer down.
And he wanted to know about shewas an actress, but she only
did a pilot.
Oh, that's right.
Yeah, yeah and the name of theshow was fox force five okay,
(43:19):
her character always told jokesand she told the one about the
mom and tomato and dad tomato,whatever, and all that little
tomato he was walking behind.
Let's just catch up after shesmushed him.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Anyways, I know I didn't do it justice like a joke
my mom would make.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, maybe.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Except for she spells ketchup like catsup, catsup
Like C-A-T-S-U-P.
I got that At least the lasttime I saw her write the word.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Didn't you just show me a recipe that was with your?
Speaker 1 (43:51):
mom oh, potentially, yeah, definitely.
Yeah, my grandma's chinkinggumbo sloppy joes.
But it was your mom'shandwriting, right, and she
wrote cats up.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yeah, because I made a comment about that actually,
because I just always think it'sfunny when people put cats up
instead of ketchup.
It's usually a geographic typething, isn't?
Speaker 1 (44:10):
it Well.
I mean, we both grew up inNebraska and I spell it with a.
K, so I don't know.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
It makes sense.
Nebraska corn C catsup I get it.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
So am I saying it wrong then, or spelling it wrong
?
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Apparently.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
I'm going to Google this Catsup.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
versus ketchup, Kate's mom.
I'm joking about the C and thecorn and the catsup.
I hope you understand.
I'm always joking.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Always, literally all the time.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
So I apologize.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
So catsup yeah, there is a reason for it right Is
usually used in the South.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Yeah, okay, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
And it originated from a Chinese fish sauce,
really, which was brought toEurope and then westernized.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
I never heard that before that's interesting and
then the heinz company did youknow ketchup wasn't always green
or it wasn't always red, itused to be green yes, I think I
didn't know that yeah heinzcompany yeah, use ketchup.
Yeah, but then later switched toketchup to distinguish their
product and then, and also, ifI'm not mistaken, the the whole
(45:19):
reason.
Like you never knew what wasactually in it.
It was literally just to maskthe terrible taste of the meat
and try and make it better, andthen it actually started being
made out of tomatoes and stuffand now it's a condiment that
people love that it's probably Imean, I'm not saying I'm right
here by any stretch but it's gotto be one of the, if not the
most used one of the most usedcondiments ever, yeah, ever.
(45:42):
Because burgers, fries, hot dogs, whatever it might be, lots of
different shit.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Does your son Xavier like ketchup?
Now?
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Because I know for a while he wasn't into condiments,
so it's funny because literallylast night he likes he's very
picky, as you know.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
And he, there's these certain Lunchables.
You've had a Lunchable before.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
So there's certain ones that comes with chicken
nuggets yeah, and ketchup to dipthem in yeah, he loves that.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
He likes the ketchup with it?
Yeah, and ketchup to dip him in.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
He loves that.
He likes the ketchup with it.
Yeah, he dips his chickennuggets into the ketchup and
it's funny because theseLunchables, I mean they're cold,
so they're cold chicken nuggetsinto cold ketchup.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Which he doesn't really care.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
That doesn't bother him, he actually prefers colder
food, I guess, to warmer food.
I mean, when I make him a pizza, if I make him a frozen pizza
at home, he'll uh he'll wait forit to cool down wait for it to
be cold.
Yeah, cool down, cold, whateveryou want to say, but yeah, and
in my kitchen this time of theyear you've been there, it's
chilly.
(46:47):
So, it cools down rather quick.
Yeah, dinner.
Last night I actually hadvesper and him had those
lunchables, so it's kind offunny.
But the the problem is vesper,so it comes with four nuggets,
ketchup to dip it in and twocookies I'm going for the
cookies well, you need to talkto my daughter oh, we'll fight
(47:09):
for each other.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Fight for him.
Okay, she'll get one and I getone.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
You'll have to fight her for that one, because she
ate both of hers.
And then Xavier usually doesn'tlike the cookies, which is kind
of odd, and they're basicallylike generic Oreos, yeah.
So I'm like can I have them?
Sure, he gave them to me, I atethem.
And she finished I'm like youhave to eat your chicken nugget
first and she's like more cookie.
(47:35):
I'm like you have to eat yourchicken nugget first and she's
like more cookie.
I'm like you have to eat yourchicken nugget.
So she took a bite and then sheate her cookies.
I'm like that's not enough.
But then she starts searchingfor brothers.
I'm like, oh shoot, maybe Ishouldn't have ate those.
So then I had a third one.
He wanted more.
I gave him the third one.
I'm like can I give Vesper oneof the cookies?
He's like, yeah, so big brothercame in the clutch there and
(47:59):
helped his sister out.
But it's super cute Anyways.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
How'd we go on the ketchup, ketchup talk.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Ketchup, ketchup, wow .
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
We really went on a tangent there.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Yeah, we did Okay.
So how did you like yourMahorajah?
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Mahorajah, it's delicious.
I finished two of them.
I'm feeling it Kind of want athird.
So, elle, again thank you forthe suggestion on this.
I know you work for them soyou're a little biased, but I
see why, because it wasdelicious and it also says
Mighty Dank, smooth.
(48:36):
They ain't joking.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
I liked my Limey's.
I literally just opened up mysecond one while you were
talking about your kids.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah, you did, but no , this was delicious.
Awesome.
I'm glad you like your Limey'sAgain.
I know it's not Modelo, butit's a nice little alternative,
it's an alternative.
Yeah, it's a nice littlealternative, it's an alternative
.
Yeah, it's a great alternativeFor something a little different
.
Yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
I really like the bright green can.
I really really like the brightgreen can.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
I mean I'll have to have a Shandy, you'll have to
have one of those one of thesedays.
Yes, it's pretty good.
So, yeah, I'll have to try oneof yours as well next time you
have them, because I mean, Iused to sell a bunch of lineys.
I like their products, I likewhat they are.
um, I don't like that they'renot brewed in Chippewa Falls
anymore, but so it goes, uh,it's up towards, like the
(49:24):
northwest side of Wisconsin,towards Minnesota, kind of uh
was that?
I always get my, my towns mixedup.
Lac La Crosse, right, is thatright, mm-mm?
Speaker 1 (49:36):
I don't go that direction.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Well, not many people do it's.
I still find it funny becauseit's like flavor of the
Northwoods.
It's not the Northwoods, in myopinion.
My parents are from theNorthwoods.
Yeah, yeah, they're from upnorth, that's like mid-north,
okay, but either way, yeah,that's maybe me picking there,
so but no, I, I like lineys, Ilike summer shandy.
(50:01):
I wish they'd bring some oftheir old classics back, like
big butt doppelbach.
But either way, such a such agreat logo just so you can say
the name oh yeah, big butt, giveme another big butt, sir.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Doubleback, doublebock.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Doppelbock yes.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Doppelbock.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Yes, yeah, super fun German word Yep, cool For sure.
Well, I suppose All right,buffoons.
That's it for today's episode.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Buckle up, because we've got another historical
adventure waiting for you.
Next time Feeling hungry formore buffoonery, or maybe you
have a burning question or awild historical theory for us to
explore hit us up on socialmedia.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
We're history buffoons podcast on youtube x,
instagram and facebook.
You can also email us athistory buffoons podcast at
gmailcom.
We are bradley and kate.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Music by cory acres follow us wherever you get your
podcast and turn thosenotifications on to stay in the
loop.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to
rate and review us.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Remember, the buffoonery never stops.
Music by Corey Akers.
Oh, hey there, oh hey there, I'm Kate.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
And I'm Bradley and we are the History Buffoons.
That's right, yes, yes.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I'm well, how are you ?
I's right?
Yes, yes, yes.
How are you?
I'm well, how are you?
I'm good.
Yeah, yeah, excellent.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Yeah, it's kind of a long week, but yeah, it felt
like it.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, but you know, we made it through.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
We sure did.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
On to record another episode.
Why is that funny?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
another episode.
Why is that funny?
Um, because I killed it thisweek.
Yeah, yeah, how so?
Do tell lots of research, yes,lots of writing yeah just I
killed it what is it?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
writing for our podcast I know, I was joking yes
, I, I killed it.
All right.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I'm also excited because you surprised me with a
beer.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I did so.
As we've said hi Penny,multiple times on this podcast,
I like to drink Limey's SummerShandy.
It's my go-to everyday beer andwe were picking out podcast
beers a week or two ago and wesaw that Lainey's has a new
(01:29):
Lainey Lodge, lime.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Lainey Kugel has a Lainey Lodge Lime and it's a
bright lime green can and I loveit.
And tell them the style of beerthat it is.
It is a Mexican-style lagerwith natural lime flavor.
Yeah, which is right up youralley, because you love your
medellos I sure do with a limetypically so and, if you didn't
(01:52):
know, line of kugel is frommilwaukee well, it's from
chippewa falls, but they justactually it's from chippewa
falls and also milwaukee so theyjust recently apparently I saw
something on this they justrecently closed operations down
at the original brewery.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Really, I believe I saw that?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Oh, so are they just full-time in Milwaukee now.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, but they're from up in Chippewa Falls, so
the Limey Lodge, which is theirstore and beer room, and
everything is still there.
However, apparently they don'tbrew any beer out of there
anymore is what I saw.
I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I didn't look into it what kind of beer do you have?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
oh dear.
I got caught on my quad so Ihave a beer.
That's been long awaiting totry.
Oh, okay, didn't have tointerrupt, but here we are.
So, as you know, our first fan,Al Al.
He is still in the beerbusiness.
(02:53):
That's where he and I met many,many, many, many, many years
ago, and he currently lives outin Nevada and he works for a
couple breweries that he's partof, I guess, and one of them is
Avery, and they have a MaharajaIPA.
He told me, because he knows Ilike IPAs, that I should try
(03:13):
this, and then I went to thestore.
Couldn't find it.
Couldn't find it.
Ooh, I found it.
Holy balls, it's almost 15bucks a six pack, holy crap.
So the first time I saw it, I'mlike I'm going to wait.
I guess I just wasn't preparedto spend $15 on a six pack at
that time it better be good.
However, this week I wasprepared, apparently because I
(03:34):
currently have a six pack here.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Maharaja.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Maharaja, and so it's an Imperial India Pale Ale 10%.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Holy schmuckies.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, so I have two of these queued up.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
I have two Linen Kugels queued up.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I might be feeling a little saucy at the end of this
episode.
So thanks for the suggestion,al.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Here we go, oh, yes, yes, oh my gosh, I can't wait
for this.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I'll let you try it first.
Usually we choose each other,but oh yeah, cheers, I'll have
another sip.
It's pretty good, can you, isit?
Speaker 1 (04:12):
it's not too limey no , that's not too limey.
I still prefer modelo, sure,but this is a great little
substitute.
Okay, I like it.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
There you go yeah, I will keep drinking it, for sure
it will not go to waste, Ipromise you?
Yeah, I will keep drinking itfor sure it will not go to waste
.
I promise you.
Yeah, At least keep drinking ituntil all six are gone.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah absolutely, yeah , absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's our new term.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, absolutely All the kitties are put away except
for Penny and Amos.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
That's really good.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Oh, yeah, yeah, Hold for uh penny and amos.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
That's really good.
Oh yeah yeah, hold on while Itake a second sip worth the 15
yes, thanks al.
Uh, great choice, or asuggestion?
Um, the funny thing is I toldhim how much I got it for and
he's like that's a great price.
Oh wow, but he also lives outin nevada so not sure what the
pricing is out there.
Yeah, definitely could be alittle higher, but that's really
(05:09):
good.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
So it is now like mid-afternoon.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
And Amos is pretty on the dot when it comes.
Well, actually, he's really not.
He's fairly early when it comesto wanting to be fed and he is
the most vocal out of all fiveof them put together.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Oh, hands, all of them put together.
I've been over to your houseclose to feeding time.
I swear he yells at me.
It's what he's doing, oh my God.
He walks around and just yells,and then he'll walk up to you
and yell.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah.
So to say he's the most vocalis an understatement yeah, but
like you can't really pick himup or like snuggle him because
and he's a scaredy cat, he'slike the quintessential scaredy
cat yeah, that's pretty much.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
If he was alive when they created that term, they
would show a picture of him.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, he would be in the dictionary as Scaredy Cat
aka Amos, so if he interrupts usduring this, that is why it's
almost dinner time.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
That's all right, we'll make do.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, okay, I want one more drink before we move on
to this, sorry.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I'm glad you like it, though I know you said you like
your Medela better, but I'mglad you're enjoying it.
It's got a limey taste likelike your summer shandy.
Sure it does have that, butyeah, they, they have obviously
a distinct kind of process andnow that it's all uh macro
through milwaukee, which isunfortunate.
I liked it better when theywere just up in the chippewa
(06:38):
falls.
But yeah they've been brewingthem down in milwaukee for some
time, so that's also why summershandy's year round nowadays.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
So okay, you're ready for this I'm ready for this.
Let's do this okay, so thisstory came from nathan.
Okay, he heard it off of the tvshow letter kenny I know of it.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
I've never watched it same yeah, he finds it
absolutely hilarious I think itwas my brother, one or both my
brothers, unless I'm mixing up ashow, but yeah, I've heard and
I think it's a Canadian show, Ibelieve that's correct.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yes, so for some reason this Canadian comedy show
talked about a particular story.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
And I'm going to talk about it today.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Okay, Well, I kind of gathered that.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Based on my intro.
Yes, okay, good.
Yes, I did the thing you didsomething.
Okay, so we are going to talkabout Lizzie Sear.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Sear Like S-E-E-R.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
No, her last name is spelled completely different
okay her last name is spelledc-y-r.
Oh sure yeah lizzie seer.
Okay, so not much is knownabout her other than through her
arrest records is she canadiantoo?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
she is, so you're to tell me what's all about her.
What's all about?
What's it all about?
Speaker 1 (08:05):
So she was 5'6".
Brown eyes, dark complexion.
She was born in Canada.
She has First Nations andEuropean heritage.
She was born in 1888.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
1888, wow.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
So at the time of our story she was 29 years old.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
That's two stories in a row that you mentioned 1888.
Why88, wow, so at the time ofour story she was 29 years old.
That's two stories in a rowthat you mentioned 1888.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Why do you have the memory that you do?
Oh my God.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
The funny thing is you meant to say 1889.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
1888.
Okay, this is, I'm going toshow you a picture of Lizzie
Sear.
She's supposed to be 28.
I mean she is 28.
Wait, she's 28 in that picture,but doesn't she look like the
unsinkable Molly Brown orsomething.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
She looks like she was rode hard and put away wet
for sure, Holy balls.
Yeah, and she does look likethe unsinkable Molly.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Brown, she does.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Wasn't she like 60, though, or something like that
she's 29.
Actually, she was probably 40,but that was 1912.
Actually, she was probably 40,but that was 1912.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, wow, okay, so her occupation.
In her arrest record said wife,okay, and she was arrested for
being a wife.
Vagrancy.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Oh, she was a vagrant .
Speaker 1 (09:18):
They called sex workers vagrants at that time.
Oh okay so she was arrested forvagrancy Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Okay, so her vagrancy had a vacancy.
Did she like to fill it?
Wow, wow.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Podcast gold.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Are you sure?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Nope, okay, actually, I'm pretty sure it's the
opposite.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Pretty sure it's turning my finger.
Gold I mean green.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Here on History, buffoon's podcast.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
It's turning my ears green.
There it is Wow Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
It's more like some fool's gold over there Super
fool.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Okay, the guy who basically got arrested.
His name is John James Ryan, sois that how?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
they got a John as the name.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
John James, he's starting early.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Oh hey, dinner time.
I mean it's not, but dinnertime.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So he gets her arrested on May 17th 1917.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
They did know each other for a while, and just a
few days before this arrest shewas down on her luck.
She had no money, nowhere to go, and because they knew each
other, he let her stay at hisplace.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
So if she was listed as wife, where was her husband?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
They were getting a divorce.
I believe.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
So they were estranged, yeah, in a way.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
So, okay, fine he.
So they were estranged.
Yeah, Okay, fine, he lets herstay right.
Sure, yeah, and then he paysher $10 to make a holla.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, wait, make him holla.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Whatever Doesn't matter, no judgment.
But she gets sick the next day.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Oh dear.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
And so she's stuck at his place for another night,
essentially.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Oh man, so another $10?
.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
By Sunday, though.
John James Ryan how boring of aname, I mean pretty.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
I know Pretty.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
By Sunday, he's had enough, and he kicks her out.
Okay, a few by Sunday, he's hadenough, and he kicks her out.
Okay, a few days later he getssick.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Oh dear.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Of the Rhea.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
The Ghana.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
The Ghana of the Rhea .
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Wow, that sucks.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
He has gonorrhea.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Well, I bet she does too.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
And of course he blames Lizzie.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Well, why wouldn't he ?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
but you know what he's had, this fucking disease
before yeah, it's probably fromhim, yeah and instead of going
to the doctor, he goes straightto the drugstore that's weird
and then he tries to blackmailher.
Okay, if you pay for my meds, Iwon't call the cops.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
But so I'm confused.
What is he calling the cops on,though?
Vagrancy?
I mean, that seems kind ofloose at this point.
Ba-dum-bum, thank you, glad yougot that, but you know what I
mean.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Well, she tells him where to go Straight to
H-E-double hockey sticks, hey.
We're a family show and he callsthe cops on her of course so
they grab her that afternoon andshe's literally got nothing to
her name.
She doesn't even have a dime inher pocket okay, crazy.
So seer was charged undersection 238a of the criminal
(12:42):
code, which, and I quote Nothaving any visible means of
substance, is found wanderingabroad or lodging in any barn or
outhouse or any deserted orunoccupied building or any cart
of wagon, or in any railwaycarriage or freight car or in
(13:03):
any railway building, anyrailway carriage or freight car
or any railway building, and nothaving a good account of
himself or who, not having anyvisible means of maintaining
himself, lives withoutemployment.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
They're really specific about locations.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I mean that's pretty wild that they would, I mean
outhouse.
I mean seriously, I mean Iunderstand the time.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
So, all in all, she's a criminal Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
She's a vagrant.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
So Lizzie Sears' arrest was rather commonplace,
obviously unsavory, but it wouldhave faded into obscurity,
right Sure to obscurity right,sure.
However, it became a catalystfor a major legal development,
(13:50):
oh dear, which I will get intolater I hope so, because now I'm
intrigued you are on the edgeof your seat.
I mean just kidding, he'sreally not.
He's sitting far back into thecouch with his legs up and beer
in his pocket.
Whatever you're in my pocket Iwas actually gonna sing your
pocket the day after her arreston may 18th 1917.
Yeah, lizzie sear went to courtwhat's her name?
(14:12):
Sear, lizzie sear lizzie okayno jury of course.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Why would they have one?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
vacancy wasn't considered serious enough for
that, so she was left solely tothe mercy of the magistrate.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Ooh magistrates.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
With only her lawyer, John McKinley Cameron, to
represent her.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So John McKinley Cameron was quite the character.
Yeah, he was a lawyer from NovaScotia, oh, which is, you know,
on the east coast of Canada?
Sure, okay, he started outrepresenting mine workers.
They moved out West to Calgary,alberta oh, do you know where
Alberta is?
Uh?
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Canada.
Yes, I am not wrong.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
It's like the second to last on the Western Cause.
What's?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
the furthest West one Cause.
That's where Vancouver is right.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Correct.
Okay yeah, so it's BritishColumbia on the far west and
then Alberta.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
You would think I'm 45 and I fucking don't know any
of this.
I know.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
I'm just as bad.
I actually did a lot ofresearch on the maps and stuff
talking about this case.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Because I knew where Vancouver was.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I knew that was British Columbia.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah, I know of Toronto, I don't know which,
which territory.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
is that in?
Is that Manitoba?
I don't fucking know.
Oh shit, no, we're just we're,we're buffoons?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, we are, I mean.
I mean we pretty much alreadycalled, called ourselves out,
but Hold up, Cameron.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
He's now in Alberta, Calgary, yes, okay, which is
like central Alberta, but liketo the west, or, excuse me, to
the south, central to the south.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I have a question.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Bradley with his hand up.
Do you know the hockey team inCalgary's name?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
No.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
The Flames.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
All right Trivia.
No the Flames.
All right Trivia folks.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
There you go.
Their logo is a C with someflames coming off the back.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah, anyway, hockey eh.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Cameron opened his own firm and criminal law was
his focus.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Okay.
So he was brilliant.
Everyone said so.
He knew the criminal codeinside and out.
But he was also kind ofunconventional.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
He would wear mismatched suits.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
I feel like they make movies about people like this.
Probably, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Mismatched suits, sometimes even rubber boots, in
court.
What yes?
He'd occasionally sleep in hisgarage loft with his hunting
dogs Aw, that's cute.
So a little quirky, a littlequirky, a little eccentric, but
he was serious about his work.
He took on cases that otherlawyers wouldn't touch,
especially when the clients weresuper poor or fringes of
(16:54):
society kind of thing Minors,immigrants, vagrants, so sex
workers you know, a whole, buthe had a real sense of justice.
So it seems.
Well, that's a positive yeah,I'm gonna take a swig because
you would.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
You would hope that he has, you know, kind of that
demeanor to try and help theselowlifes.
We'll just call them, for lackof a better term, yeah, um, or
unfortunate people, whatever youwant to say so.
I mean down on their luck yeah,it's nice to have someone
fighting for the little guy.
Yeah, I sound like I'm apolitician there.
Yeah, absolutely, and the funnything is, politicians never
(17:33):
fight for the little guy anywaysokay.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
So right from the get-go, cameron, the lawyer went
on the attack yeah, of courseyou gotta fucking fight, fight,
fight yeah, so he immediatelydeclared, uh, the charge against
sear as having no basis,pointing out that many women in
Calgary didn't earn an income.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
But also weren't considered vagrants.
Sure Okay, he entered a notguilty plea.
He argued that the magistratedidn't have the legal authority
to try the case because themagistrate was a woman.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Well, shit.
So, Ryan, why does that matter?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Oh, I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Okay, good.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Uh-huh.
So Ryan the John yeah, johnRyan, he gets up to testify
first, testify brother yeah, andCameron, just John Ryan, he
gets up to testify first,testify brother yeah, and
Cameron, just like nails him.
So he's sharp, you know, but healso got this kind of like
witty edge, so he basically usesRyan's own words to make him
look.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Like an idiot Less than virtuous.
Sure, oh yeah, that too.
Gonorrhea.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, and it really made you wonder, like, how much
ryan was actually like what hewas saying was actually true,
right.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
So now my favorite part of this whole thing oh, my
word, you and I bradley, you andI, we're gonna role play.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Oh, jesus, is this what you put on my computer.
I put a file on his computerand we're gonna to read it
together.
This is his first time readingit.
Oh, my word so if he flubs,that's only because he's
sightseeing.
Sightseeing, no sightreading,that's the word.
He's sightreading.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
The worst part is I never learned how to read.
Is that all true?
Everything but the reading part.
Sorry, that's from a movie Name.
That movie Give you $5.
But the reading part sorry,that's from a movie name that
movie give you five dollars, Idon't know, cool I saved five
dollars, folks.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
What was it from wayne's world?
Oh, I've only seen that likeonce.
It's not my fault open to yourcomputer.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Oh, I don't.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I wasn't told that I should actually do it yes, we're
gonna role play and you shouldhave the document pulled up says
Bradley, read the red portions.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yes, that's right, good job okay.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
So I am playing Cameron the lawyer, and you are
playing Ryan the John.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Let me get into character here.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
All right.
So when did you consult adoctor about your gonorrhea?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
I did not consult a doctor about it.
When it started running, I wentto the drugstore and bought
some medicine.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I'm sorry running it's got to be some kind of
discharge.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I'm just reading what's here in front of me.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I know I'm putting in commentary, oh okay, okay, back
to cameron because you made mefeel stupid about that back to
cameron.
When was that?
The day before yesterday whatdoctor did you see?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I did not see any doctor.
I went to mr mcgill and toldhim what.
What was the matter?
And he said I know the medicineyou need.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Are you still running at large, Jesus Christ?
What the running.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I am not running at large.
I have got a home and workingevery day.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Got a family.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
No, I am not married.
I rent a home and I stay athome every night.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
You are going to behave yourself and leave the
girls alone until you are cured.
Yes, I am okay.
So here's the thing cameron waswas driving it.
Yeah, so he made it clear thatwhat?
Ryan wasn't exactly a modelcitizen when he came to public
health.
Right, he pointed out that ryanhad contracted the disease
before and, by his own admission, he was a regular client of sex
(21:19):
workers.
Right, so cameron's argumentargument was that Ryan was just
as likely, if not more, tospread the disease.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Sure, Makes sense.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
By sleeping with other women, he'd be the one
creating a chain reaction,spreading it through the city.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Right Spreading it.
Wow, that's Spreading, yes,epidemic.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Me as Cameron Outside of getting diseased, was there
any other objection to her?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
the objection was I did not want to keep a
prostitute in the house and shedid not want to leave.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
I mean touche you took the prostitute to your
house yes, for one night andafter one dose of gonorrhea you
thought you should not have aprostitute in your house.
You are sure you are absolutelyvirtuous and could not have
gotten it from any other woman.
So Cameron really dug into Ryanat this point.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Okay, I don't mean to interrupt.
I just read the next two andit's fucking fantastic.
It's so basic but it's so great.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Okay, so Ryan wasn't exactly known for his monogamy.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Clearly.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
He admitted to seeing other sex workers.
So Cameron basically asked howcould he possibly pinpoint
Lizzie?
Ryan's answer was that she wasthe only one he'd been with
recently.
Cameron, with his like dry wit,just replied you are very
moderate.
What do you do for a living?
(22:50):
I work.
That is so great.
Are you working now?
Speaker 2 (22:55):
well, if I was not here, I would be working this
afternoon at the CentralMethodist Church.
I mean, he's verystraightforward.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yes, I think you will contaminate the church.
Are you still going to work forthe church?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yes.
The adjudant oh yeah, there,Look at that I should read
forward.
The adjudant phoned me down atthe Salvation Army.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Did you reveal to him that you had gonorrhea?
Speaker 2 (23:25):
No, I did not.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
What work are you going down there?
Because we do not want anepidemic to break out in the
church.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Epidemic of gonorrhea .
Speaker 1 (23:34):
She is charged that on the 17th day of May she had
no visible means of support.
You don't know that.
She is a decent married woman.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
I have seen her around.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
It takes two to have sexual intercourse.
Are you a decent man?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I guess I am working and earning my living.
What the fuck.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I wish I was in this courtroom to see this, because I
would just be laughing thewhole fucking time.
Seriously, I guess I am workingand earning my living.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Okay, so Cameron definitely got the better of
Ryan and Cor, but Ryan wasn'tnaive, he knew the system.
Being a man with a steady job,working at a church, no less
less, and a place to live, hehad a clear advantage.
It's why he probably felt safereporting seer, even though he
was basically admitting to hisown involvement, sure, and he
(24:29):
understood the public sphere ofvenereal disease and how
prejudiced they were againstcertain groups.
Yeah, it makes sense.
So you see.
Well, calgary had been prettylax about vagrancy and
prostitution in the past.
Things had changed.
By the 1910s there was a realpush for moral reform driven by
church groups, citizenorganizations and women's groups
, and they were putting pressureon the police to clean up the
(24:51):
city.
All right, and the police wereresponding.
They got more organized undernew chiefs and they were really
cracking down, closing down allthe brothels in the city.
Okay, so beyond just like moraloutrage, there was a huge fear
of venereal disease, sure, andeven though it affected everyone
, it was mostly blamed onquote-unquote, immoral women.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Well, yeah, because they're the ones who got around
to yes the or whatever.
Blah, blah blah.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yes, historian David Bright points out that women
were so worried about publichealth that they were willing to
overlook individual rights.
So, with that kind ofatmosphere, plus the existing
prejudice against Métis, which Iwill explain, and indigenous
women.
Lizzie Sear was really upagainst it from the start.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Oh 100%.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Matisse refers to a distinct indigenous nation
descended from unions betweenindigenous peoples and Europeans
Okay, and is one of the threerecognized indigenous peoples in
Canada, along with FirstNations and Inuit.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Really.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
And we've talked about Inuit in the Whiskey War,
origin of Weird Story.
Sure have Mm-hmm Wow okay.
So Ryan strategically paintedSear as a threat to public
health, constantly mentioningher infection, sure, and he went
so far as to say she shouldn'tbe running around carrying that
disease doing this and that.
(26:20):
He also added fuel to the fireby mentioning her separation
from her husband Even moredamaging insinuating an improper
connection with a Chinese man.
Now he knew that, given theera's deep-seated prejudice,
this would further discredit herright and I will say, the next
(26:43):
role-playing section.
Here chinaman is mentioned.
However, they had a derogatoryterm and I'm not allowed, I'm
not willing to say that.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
so you're allowed to say you just don't want.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I don't want to say there's a difference so the
derogatory word is now going tobe called china man.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Okay can I ask you it later?
Speaker 1 (27:04):
off off of sure sure but you are going to begin this
section, sure am.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Go ahead, ryan I knocked at the door and it was
locked.
A few minutes after she openedthe door and a china man was in
the room with her.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
The China man was there for the laundry.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
The door was locked.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Did you warn the Chinese man against her?
Speaker 2 (27:25):
No, when the Chinese man seen me, seen me, he walked
out.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
You don't know if he took anything away with him or
not.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
No, they were in the room together and the room was
locked, wow.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
How do you know you have gonorrhea?
Did you consult a doctor?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
It started running.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
What started running.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
My penis started running After a man gets one
dose.
He knows a little about it.
I'm sorry, Hold on.
I got to redo that one After aman gets one dose, he knows a
little about it.
Sorry, I have to.
I'm trying to get intocharacter here.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
You did not consult a doctor.
No, that's funny.
So after Ryan, they called thearresting officer, William
Simons, to the stand.
Okay, Also thank you for therole playing.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yes, you're welcome.
Thank you for the role playing.
Yes, you're welcome.
Thank you for uh.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
thank you for the interactive uh podcast so
cameron started questioning himabout the arrest and it turns
out seer admitted to taking theten dollars.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Okay, but there was zero proof she'd given ryan the
disease so there's also probablyzero proof that she actually
did anything with him.
I mean, there's literally noproof except for word of mouth
from these two people Word ofmouth.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
He said, she said yeah exactly Literally, he said,
she said so Cameron was prettydirect, asking Simons you don't
know anything about the facts,you don't know if she gave you
him gonorrhea or anything.
And Simons admitted no, justwhat he told me just a chinaman,
wait what okay, but then out ofnowhere, in the middle of the
(29:08):
arresting officers questioning,I guess yeah, judge, or the
magistrate, yes, alice jamesonso she was still, and are you
gonna get into why she shouldn'thave been on this?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yes, okay, cool.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Out of nowhere.
Magistrate Alice Jamesoninterrupts.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Lizzie Sear, six months hard labor at McLeod.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
You can't just fucking do that.
Cameron was stunned Well yeah,like, how does she, like she's
hearing this testimony orwhatever, and just says, no,
fuck it Hard labor Six months.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Sear didn't even have a chance to defend herself.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, that's bullshit .
Speaker 1 (29:52):
And Cameron was furious.
He said to the to the judge Ishall see that your decision is
overruled.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Fucking A right Mm-hmm.
I wish he had a gavel of hisown.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
So it's really shocking, especially considering
Jameson was appointedspecifically to give women a
fair trial, and it seems likeshe completely missed the mark.
Clearly, and according tohistorian John McLaren, female
magistrates brought a uniqueviewpoint to the bench, quite
different than males in the sameposition.
(30:24):
The difference really showed inhow they dealt with the vice,
especially with women, who wereseen as wayward, like sex
workers.
They were particularly outragedby how young women were being
exploited and they felt thatmale officers, prosecutors and
judges were often too lax,unfair and even insensitive in
how they applied the law.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Oh dear.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Now, just because they were women, it didn't mean
that female magistrates weregoing to go easy on vagrant
women.
Well, of course not.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Because, depending on their mindset and whatever
they're going to be like, fuckthis bitch.
She's giving us a bad name,exactly.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Exactly mindset and whatever they're going to be
like.
Fuck this bitch.
Yeah, she's giving us a badname, exactly exactly so.
While they might have shownsome leniency towards younger
women or first-time offenders,they were pretty tough on anyone
that was like unrepentant orhardened, so to speak.
Sure, so figures like jamesonand emily murphy, who was the
other female magistrate at thattime okay, so there's only two
women magistrates at this time?
Sure, they really believe thatthese women needed to be locked
(31:22):
up for their own good, to reformthem essentially.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, because that's always worked.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Maybe Jameson looked at Sears' record and decided
that she needed a wake-up callor something.
Okay, but in the four yearsleading up to her arrest, sears
had been arrested a few times,mostly for being drunk and once
for vagrancy.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Oh, so she was arrested once prior to this For
vagrancy.
Yes, Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
So she's not a first-time offender.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Right, right right.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
The longest she'd served was 60 days for that
vagrancy charge.
Oh wow.
So when she came before Jamesonagain, she got the absolute
maximum sentence allowed by law.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Which is the six months, mm-hmm, okay.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
So she actually did kind of get off relatively
lightly.
Jameson could have added like ahefty time or hefty fine on top
of prison time, but she didn'tSure, and I will tell you like
what Cyr did, okay.
So Jameson was kind of in atough spot.
Cameron the lawyer, hischallenge to her authority
(32:25):
during sears trial was probablyjust one of many that jameson
faced.
Sure he'd questioned herqualifications just seven months
later again, jesus.
so it must have been incrediblystressful for jameson and she
actually did speak about this inan interview with the Calgary
Daily Herald in 1920.
She said quote being the firstwoman magistrate was no position
(32:48):
to excite envy, I assure you.
She admitted she had to dealwith a lot of prejudice from
lawyers and the police.
She described feelingcompletely unwelcome when she
first started and even thoughtabout quitting.
But then she said to herself,quote well, I'm here and I'm
here to stay.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
So it's possible Jameson was just trying to prove
herself.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
It sounds like that's a very good possibility.
Hard to say, for sure, but Imean that's not uncommon, I
guess, for people to do that,yeah, so to do that.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yeah, so, but historian david bright points
out that in 1917, being aprostitute or a vagrant wasn't
really about proving specificcrimes, right, it was more about
proving someone's lifestyleokay so and that's what happened
with seer sure.
so ryan, basically the, the johnryan basically painted a
picture of her as someone wholived a certain way.
He mentioned her infection,which was used to label her as
(33:43):
being immoral.
He said he'd seen her aroundsaying that she was a known
offender, and he highlightedthat she was broke, had left her
husband and associated withother considered undesirable.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Do you think someone would really go around saying
that, like saying those things?
I mean, that just doesn't seemright.
If there's something in it forhim, I guess Well yeah, but I
mean I don't know, I just findthat weak.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Anyway, sorry, no, that's okay.
So John McKinley Cameron wasnot one to take defeat lightly.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
No, I mean he wore rubber boots to court women, so
bold, I mean in case it flooded.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Exactly, he was going fishing afterwards.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Maybe he's got to get them trout.
Yeah, I heard they got somegood fishing up in Canada.
My dad went fishing in Canada.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he wassupposed to take me.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
still waiting, dad, just kidding so cameron was
actually known for hispersistence and appearing before
the alberta supreme court ofappeal more than any other
lawyer in a 20-year span.
Wow, he's like.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Fine, I'll go to your boss I'll go to your boss, fuck
you man so after losing kind oflike I'm sorry yeah it's kind
of like I'd like to speak to themanager.
I always like to speak to yourmanager.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
So after losing lizzie sears case in jameson's
court, he wasn't about to let itgo he's like fuck this, whether
it was simple stubbornness orsomething deeper.
He decided to challenge notonly the verdict, but also
Jameson's right to be amagistrate.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Okay, damn, going for the guns here, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Because if she isn't allowed on the stand, then it's
going to get overturned,essentially.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
And he would win that case with Sear.
He's basically going throughthe back door.
Yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Dirty.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
He, of course, went to.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Justice David Scott of the Alberta Supreme Court.
Okay, Scott dismissed hisapplication even though he
admitted he had his own doubtsabout women holding office.
Wow, that wasn't misogynisticat all he basically said quote I
have my reservations, but thisisn't the right way to challenge
it it's funny.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
It's funny that he he did not want.
He clearly showed his hand thatwomen are inferior.
Yeah, and again we're talkingabout the 1912 yeah, 1917 to
1920.
So I get it.
I understand the time frame andthe mindset back then, but it's
like he didn't care for thosepeople in those positions.
(36:23):
But he's like yeah, but youstill can't do it this way, so
it's really kind of funny.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Yeah, I agree, but no .
Speaker 2 (36:29):
He's like yeah, but no, it's just funny because
clearly again different times100 years ago.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
And you get these people that are like women
should be in the home doing mylaundry and making dinner and
blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
But there's obviously women in these certain high
positions.
But he's like no, we're stillnot going to go about it that
way.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, he agreed.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
By his statement.
Yeah, he clearly is like Iagree with you, but we just
can't do it that way.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
So I mean, at least he had some morals, even though
he's a fuck Undeterred, camerontook it to the appellate
division of the Supreme Court ofAlberta.
This time, justice Beck,stewart, cj Harvey and JJ Walsh
also rejected his appeal.
Oh okay, but Justice Stewartwas very clear about his stance.
(37:20):
He said, quote we shoulddeclare that in our province and
in our time there is no legalreason to disqualify women from
holding public office.
And then he went on to say thatthey were returning to a more
progressive view from the MiddleAges, rather than the more
restrictive views that hadbecome popular in the 19th
(37:40):
century.
So with that ruling, albertamade history.
Oh shit, I always sayProvidence, providence to
officially recognize women aslegal persons with the right to
hold public office.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
So progressive.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
The Calgary Daily Herald even ran a headline that
said judges find that MrsJamison is legally appointed.
Oh, Jesus Christ.
But the rest of Canada?
Not so so much didn't see itthat way tell us about it, I
will sweet jameson continued herwork as magistrate and she
(38:26):
eventually retired comfortablyin 1931.
Wow cameron meanwhile kept uphis successful career.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Good, for him.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
He kept practicing law into the 1930s and passed
away in 1943.
Oh, and now, because Jameson'sability to judge was confirmed,
they also validated Sears'sentence.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Of course Makes sense .
Speaker 1 (38:49):
So she served six months at the Northwest Mounted
Police Barracks in Fort McLeod.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
There it is Sure.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Which is about an hour and a half south of Calgary
, right In pretty awfulconditions it was crowded, poor
ventilation.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well, you had said it's hard labor too.
Oh, this is Right.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yes, but we don't know what that hard labor was,
unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yeah, I mean it could have been chopping down trees
or hunting Sasquatch, we don'tknow.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Or picking up a boulder walking 30 feet, putting
down a boulder.
Going back picking up a boulderwalking 30 feet, putting down a
boulder.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
The problem is when you say boulder every time.
I know you're not a big IndianaJones fan or I haven't seen
them that much, but I just thinkof the first movie and I'm just
like the boulder rolling down.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
So so that reference was a movie with, um, robert
redford.
Okay, uh, the last castle, Ithink, is the name of the movie
james gandolfini that's right.
Yeah, one of his punishments asa prisoner was to pick up a
massive boulder, walk 30 feet,put it down and go back and pick
up another boulder, and it wasmassive and heavy I guess.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I just think a boulder is being bigger than
someone being able to pick up,so maybe a giant rock, but
either way a very large rock.
Yes, okay, so in 1920 1922 yeah, good year a lizzie sear.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
We don't know if it's the lizzie sear, but a a Lizzie
Sear was working.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
So there could be multiples.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Lizzie Sear was working as a waitress at the
King Edward hotel in PinscherCreek near Fort McLeod.
Okay, there were other peoplewith the last name Sear there,
so maybe she connected withfamily at that time.
Sure.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Possible.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
But after that, lizzie Sear kind of fades into
historical records Obscurity,yeah, lizzie Sear kind of fades
into historical records,obscurity, yeah.
So it is pretty sad because itis pretty common that a lot of
Matisse sex workers ended upthat way.
Sure, so remember I said thatthere was a major legal
development earlier yes, you hadmentioned that, yes and that
(40:51):
the rest of Canada didn'trecognize women as legal persons
with the right to hold publicoffice.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
So with the whole not recognizing them to be legal
persons?
What exactly does that?
Speaker 1 (41:03):
mean oh, I will tell you oh thank goodness Because.
But, yes.
You have to wait.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Oh fucking shit.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
For part two of this story, which will be next week.
Hey, this is a two-parter.
Hey, just so you know numbertwo, you don't have to role play
with me.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Oh, thank God, Good Lord.
So you get to wait to see whathappens I'll be waiting with
baited breath I was gonna saythat, but I was trying to think
of something more canadian.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I got nothing baited bruce, baited bruce what's it
all about?
Okay, this is our very firsttwo-parter.
How do you feel about that?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
I feel weird because we've talked about, because you
don't know the ending of thestory yeah, I feel like
cliffhangers aren't my thang.
Yeah, um, but we've talkedabout doing two-parters before
and we just kind of squeeze itinto a longer episode.
We do, and we usually like tokeep our episodes around a
(42:18):
certain time frame, just, youknow, because we don't want to
lose Al's interest.
But yeah, no, it's weirdbecause now I don't know and
it's kind of infuriating.
I want to know what's all about.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
This beer is really good though.
Well, I will tell you, it doesinvolve what is known as the
Famous Five.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Fox Force Five.
Do you know what movie that'sfrom?
No, pulp Fiction, great movie.
Don't remember that part.
Pulp Fiction.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Ah yes, great movie Don't remember that part?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
It's the pilot she did for the TV because John
Travolta's character fuck,vincent Vega took Mia Wallace
out.
Wow, you didn't just slam yourbeer down.
And he wanted to know about shewas an actress, but she only
did a pilot.
Oh, that's right.
Yeah, yeah and the name of theshow was fox force five okay,
(43:19):
her character always told jokesand she told the one about the
mom and tomato and dad tomato,whatever, and all that little
tomato he was walking behind.
Let's just catch up after shesmushed him.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Anyways, I know I didn't do it justice like a joke
my mom would make.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, maybe.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Except for she spells ketchup like catsup, catsup
Like C-A-T-S-U-P.
I got that At least the lasttime I saw her write the word.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Didn't you just show me a recipe that was with your?
Speaker 1 (43:51):
mom oh, potentially, yeah, definitely.
Yeah, my grandma's chinkinggumbo sloppy joes.
But it was your mom'shandwriting, right, and she
wrote cats up.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yeah, because I made a comment about that actually,
because I just always think it'sfunny when people put cats up
instead of ketchup.
It's usually a geographic typething, isn't?
Speaker 1 (44:10):
it Well.
I mean, we both grew up inNebraska and I spell it with a.
K, so I don't know.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
It makes sense.
Nebraska corn C catsup I get it.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
So am I saying it wrong then, or spelling it wrong
?
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Apparently.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
I'm going to Google this Catsup.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
versus ketchup, Kate's mom.
I'm joking about the C and thecorn and the catsup.
I hope you understand.
I'm always joking.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Always, literally all the time.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
So I apologize.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
So catsup yeah, there is a reason for it right Is
usually used in the South.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Yeah, okay, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
And it originated from a Chinese fish sauce,
really, which was brought toEurope and then westernized.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
I never heard that before that's interesting and
then the heinz company did youknow ketchup wasn't always green
or it wasn't always red, itused to be green yes, I think I
didn't know that yeah heinzcompany yeah, use ketchup.
Yeah, but then later switched toketchup to distinguish their
product and then, and also, ifI'm not mistaken, the the whole
(45:19):
reason.
Like you never knew what wasactually in it.
It was literally just to maskthe terrible taste of the meat
and try and make it better, andthen it actually started being
made out of tomatoes and stuffand now it's a condiment that
people love that it's probably Imean, I'm not saying I'm right
here by any stretch but it's gotto be one of the, if not the
most used one of the most usedcondiments ever, yeah, ever.
(45:42):
Because burgers, fries, hot dogs, whatever it might be, lots of
different shit.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Does your son Xavier like ketchup?
Now?
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Because I know for a while he wasn't into condiments,
so it's funny because literallylast night he likes he's very
picky, as you know.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
And he, there's these certain Lunchables.
You've had a Lunchable before.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
So there's certain ones that comes with chicken
nuggets yeah, and ketchup to dipthem in yeah, he loves that.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
He likes the ketchup with it?
Yeah, and ketchup to dip him in.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
He loves that.
He likes the ketchup with it.
Yeah, he dips his chickennuggets into the ketchup and
it's funny because theseLunchables, I mean they're cold,
so they're cold chicken nuggetsinto cold ketchup.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Which he doesn't really care.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
That doesn't bother him, he actually prefers colder
food, I guess, to warmer food.
I mean, when I make him a pizza, if I make him a frozen pizza
at home, he'll uh he'll wait forit to cool down wait for it to
be cold.
Yeah, cool down, cold, whateveryou want to say, but yeah, and
in my kitchen this time of theyear you've been there, it's
chilly.
(46:47):
So, it cools down rather quick.
Yeah, dinner.
Last night I actually hadvesper and him had those
lunchables, so it's kind offunny.
But the the problem is vesper,so it comes with four nuggets,
ketchup to dip it in and twocookies I'm going for the
cookies well, you need to talkto my daughter oh, we'll fight
(47:09):
for each other.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Fight for him.
Okay, she'll get one and I getone.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
You'll have to fight her for that one, because she
ate both of hers.
And then Xavier usually doesn'tlike the cookies, which is kind
of odd, and they're basicallylike generic Oreos, yeah.
So I'm like can I have them?
Sure, he gave them to me, I atethem.
And she finished I'm like youhave to eat your chicken nugget
first and she's like more cookie.
(47:35):
I'm like you have to eat yourchicken nugget first and she's
like more cookie.
I'm like you have to eat yourchicken nugget.
So she took a bite and then sheate her cookies.
I'm like that's not enough.
But then she starts searchingfor brothers.
I'm like, oh shoot, maybe Ishouldn't have ate those.
So then I had a third one.
He wanted more.
I gave him the third one.
I'm like can I give Vesper oneof the cookies?
He's like, yeah, so big brothercame in the clutch there and
(47:59):
helped his sister out.
But it's super cute Anyways.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
How'd we go on the ketchup, ketchup talk.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Ketchup, ketchup, wow .
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
We really went on a tangent there.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Yeah, we did Okay.
So how did you like yourMahorajah?
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Mahorajah, it's delicious.
I finished two of them.
I'm feeling it Kind of want athird.
So, elle, again thank you forthe suggestion on this.
I know you work for them soyou're a little biased, but I
see why, because it wasdelicious and it also says
Mighty Dank, smooth.
(48:36):
They ain't joking.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
I liked my Limey's.
I literally just opened up mysecond one while you were
talking about your kids.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah, you did, but no , this was delicious.
Awesome.
I'm glad you like your Limey'sAgain.
I know it's not Modelo, butit's a nice little alternative,
it's an alternative.
Yeah, it's a nice littlealternative, it's an alternative
.
Yeah, it's a great alternativeFor something a little different
.
Yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
I really like the bright green can.
I really really like the brightgreen can.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
I mean I'll have to have a Shandy, you'll have to
have one of those one of thesedays.
Yes, it's pretty good.
So, yeah, I'll have to try oneof yours as well next time you
have them, because I mean, Iused to sell a bunch of lineys.
I like their products, I likewhat they are.
um, I don't like that they'renot brewed in Chippewa Falls
anymore, but so it goes, uh,it's up towards, like the
(49:24):
northwest side of Wisconsin,towards Minnesota, kind of uh
was that?
I always get my, my towns mixedup.
Lac La Crosse, right, is thatright, mm-mm?
Speaker 1 (49:36):
I don't go that direction.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Well, not many people do it's.
I still find it funny becauseit's like flavor of the
Northwoods.
It's not the Northwoods, in myopinion.
My parents are from theNorthwoods.
Yeah, yeah, they're from upnorth, that's like mid-north,
okay, but either way, yeah,that's maybe me picking there,
so but no, I, I like lineys, Ilike summer shandy.
(50:01):
I wish they'd bring some oftheir old classics back, like
big butt doppelbach.
But either way, such a such agreat logo just so you can say
the name oh yeah, big butt, giveme another big butt, sir.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Doubleback, doublebock.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Doppelbock yes.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Doppelbock.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Yes, yeah, super fun German word Yep, cool For sure.
Well, I suppose All right,buffoons.
That's it for today's episode.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Buckle up, because we've got another historical
adventure waiting for you.
Next time Feeling hungry formore buffoonery, or maybe you
have a burning question or awild historical theory for us to
explore hit us up on socialmedia.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
We're history buffoons podcast on youtube x,
instagram and facebook.
You can also email us athistory buffoons podcast at
gmailcom.
We are bradley and kate.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Music by cory acres follow us wherever you get your
podcast and turn thosenotifications on to stay in the
loop.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to
rate and review us.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Remember, the buffoonery never stops.
Music by Corey Akers.
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