February 17, 2025 • 53 mins
What’s it like to be the Swiss Army knife of Major League Baseball? Don Kelly, the ever-adaptable bench coach for the Pittsburgh Pirates, shares his incredible journey from the field to the dugout, with stories that range from playing every position on the diamond to catching high-speed pitches as an emergency catcher for the Detroit Tigers. Don recounts his time under the legendary Jim Leland, offering humorous and insightful tales that showcase the grit and versatility needed to thrive in professional baseball.
Our conversation with Donnie shifts from the field to the bench, where he illuminates the evolving role of coaching in today's fast-paced game. With younger players reaching the majors at lightning speed, Don explains how balancing the physical and mental demands of the game has become more crucial than ever. He shares his personal insights into the unique challenges faced by super utility players, underscoring the critical balance between practice and performance across multiple roles, and reveals how effective practice routines can make or break a player’s career.
As we wrap up the episode, Don dives into the heart of what makes baseball so compelling: the human connections and shared experiences that define a team's identity. From the camaraderie of minor league life to the strategic blend of traditional scouting and modern analytics, Don provides an inside look at how these elements form the backbone of team success. Through stories of leadership and clubhouse culture, Don paints a vivid picture of how player-led environments and strong mentorships, like those he experienced under Jim Leland, are essential for fostering winning teams. Don's reflections on leadership and team dynamics offer a rich tapestry of insights, leaving us eagerly anticipating his next appearance on "Hold My Cutter."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
We welcome you to another episode of Hold my
Cutter Coming your way here,burned by Rocky Patel A couple
of blocks down from PNC Park.
We're sure our guest hangs outall summer long.
Of course the Ford and I do aswell.
Ford actually has his studiosright across the way here, but
just a great place to hang out.
And this portion of Hold myCutter brought to you by Eric
Katz.
With Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices, eric Katz can help you
(00:29):
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Go to askaracatscom.
(00:50):
That's askaracatscom.
You'll be glad you did.
And some of our guests on Holdmy Cutter receive gift cards
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(01:12):
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David Allen here for you andhe's here for us.
Don Kelly, in a previousepisode we talked to the Don.
By the way, do you have thenickname for our?
We went back with the vintagewhite label Connecticut Rocky
Patel, the torpedo style.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
It's the torpedo.
So, you have the nickname, butthis is Joe Boo's favorite.
He likes the light cigar.
We're going to light him upover here.
Oh wow, joe Boo's here, he'slit up, he's smoking.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
That here.
Oh wow, joe boo's here, he'slit up, he's nice.
Yeah, that's really nice.
He likes the light cigar, so heloves the white label very.
See the white hair.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, yeah, I mean just fits.
Uh, we talked to donnie a lotabout how he got into baseball.
Don kelly's number of years nowgoing on six seasons as bench
coach for the pirates.
He's back home a yinzard,whether john wainer believes it
or not.
We believe he is and the momentsthat you you had in postseason
play with the Tigers you wereone of.
Really, when you think aboutall the players that have played
(02:13):
in Major League Baseball andyou two have had that
opportunity and such a minutenumber of the population to have
actually played in the bigleagues even smaller those
who've played nine positions inthe big leagues.
And I wonder, don, was thatsomething that, as years went on
(02:34):
, that you talked to Jim Lelandabout?
You'd love to eventually dothat, and what's interesting
about it is that pitching camefirst, I think, and about a
month later you finally checkedoff that final box of catching.
But first talk to us aboutwhether you got that in Leland's
head.
I did not, you did not know.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
So to 2011,.
We signed Victor Martinez andwhen, uh, when we signed, victor
Leland called me and he askedme actually, he didn't even ask
me if I ever caught or anythinghe told me to get some catcher's
gear because I was going to bethe emergency catcher going into
2011.
(03:14):
So yeah, it was not aconversation and I didn't
question anything.
I got the catcher's gear Yep,and we went out there in spring
training.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
And you started working on it and started
catching bullpens and learninghow to do it.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Did anybody work with you?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
in particular Because you had really not done much of
that at all Not at all.
No, Never in a big league game?
No, and I never caught anywhere.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
And so in spring training you'll like this.
So they'd send me to thebackfield in Detroit they called
it K-line field.
And in the backfield in detroitI'm on k, they called it k line
field, and in the outfield pastcenter field, whatever.
So we're back there and theyhad the machine set up halfway
just throwing as hard as itcould full gear.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
You know, receiving was okay, like I felt good, did
they tell you to wear a thumbguard by chance?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
I did wear a thumb guard yeah, yes, I had a thumb
guard.
I had the knee savers, so sixfour up on the knee savers, that
was a big target back there.
And uh, so we're back there.
They put a coach in to swingand miss or like, hit some,
right.
So that that first time thatyou're going in there and you're
catching air because you'reexpecting to catch it, yeah and
(04:22):
they hit it and there's, there'snothing there that goes good.
They're like, hey, why don't wework on blocking?
All right, no problem,hindsight, we should have thrown
it first.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
They get on the machine, they win the machine
first, bro.
That's evil.
That's evil.
Big guy blocking machine.
Listen to this.
That's evil.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
So they're out there, that's old I see them crank it
down.
You know the whole way.
You saw that first skip, didn'tyou Bro?
No, even better.
So I should have let them throwone first.
I didn't.
I stayed back there.
I'm like I'm in form, you know,go down to block it, Dude.
They never turn the speed down,so this thing comes out, Bullet
(04:58):
.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Brownie, it comes out A torpedo.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
It hits that ground, ground it goes harder.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
The problem is if it would have hit the ground, it
wouldn't harder, it never hit.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
No, no, this thing is hovering right here.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I'm a torpedo I'm sitting there like a duck.
Oh, this ball comes in and bamcrushes me in the forearm
straight right, I was straight,I was ready to block it.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
It never hit the ground.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I blocked the fastball off my forearm dude I
walked off.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I threw I went to throw the ball to center field,
I'm like no, that's way too far,and I fired it as far as I
could out to left field and justwalked off I'm like, that's it,
I'm done.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Oh, I had a huge, I had a huge.
Well, did you go back in spring, or that was it?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
oh, I went back, you did after the bruise, yeah, yeah
well, that's how they used todo blocking.
I don't know.
I'll never forget my first bigleague camp.
Jamie quirk was our catchingguy um, I believe he's a bitch
coach and javi lopez about thesame size six, four yoked out of
his mind.
He was a legend to me as growingup.
And we're blocking.
I'm a little dude, they throwin the breaking ball and this
(06:03):
thing is going probably 87 offthe dirt.
When it's a dirt it's about 107.
I have bruises all in my chestfrom blocking it.
But me, being a little guy, I'm, I'm like yeah, yeah, but my
chest hurt.
Javi, big old forearms was justloaded with marks.
Yeah, he's like I'm, I.
I'm never touching that thingagain, ever, because it is
(06:27):
miserable, because you have acut in the ball.
It goes this way.
Oh, yeah, and me being a littleguy and you know that's what I
was brought up on in my collegedays is like we had the worst
balls.
We had the machine that wouldmaybe spit at you straight.
So I was used to it and I lovedit.
But yeah, it is a miserable wayto try to learn how to block.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So I don't know how many guys in the big leagues
we'll have to go back and lookat this We'll get our.
Leonard Lee is our director,producer and our statistician.
He goes back and he looks atall this stuff.
It's all the work.
He never stops, he never stops.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
He doesn't stop today .
Speaker 1 (06:53):
No, he doesn't stop Non-stop, but he'll tell us how
many, if any.
Over the years I Played ninepositions, but you have to
figure the vast majority.
The last position they playedwas pitcher.
Pitcher, yeah, but with Donnieit was June 29, 2011.
The Mets taking on the Tigersin Detroit.
Mets win the game 16-9.
(07:15):
You come on with two outs inthe ninth inning and you pitched
to Scott Harrison.
How did you find out that youwere going to be pitching?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
I warmed up the entire eighth inning and I was
down there, Leland or Lamont,who told you?
Well, so in the eighth inning,Leland told me Leland had Tom
Brookens.
Tell me to go down and getloose.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So I'm down in the cage.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
I'm getting loose to come in, which I would have had
to fill the end of the eighthand the ninth.
But we got out of the eighth,so get out of the eighth.
We hit in the bottom of theeighth and I came up and I was
just up in the dugout for thebottom of the eighth.
I stayed there and I'm standingthere watching the top of the
(07:59):
ninth and Leland comes down.
He posts up right next to me,he goes.
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Just how are you doing.
What are you doing, just howare?
Speaker 3 (08:05):
you doing?
What are you doing?
I was like watching the gameand he goes don't you think you
should go get loose?
And I was like, well, I said Ithrew a lot last inning and I
was going to wait and see ifsomebody got on base and then go
down and get loose.
He goes.
Have you been watching thiseffing game?
And I was like, yeah, I said Isaid I have, he goes, somebody's
gonna get on base.
You better go get loose, sothere you go I ran down into the
(08:32):
, into the tunnel, and lamonthollered down.
He said, hey, he goes.
Uh, last last hitter, if thisguy gets on, you're in.
And sure enough, he hit adouble to right center and I
came up, I so I'm coming fromthe dugout.
Leland looks at me and goes,hey, give me some time and don't
give the guy a high five comingoff the mound.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
What great advice.
It's so great, so good, so good.
But I saw a video you threwlike 88-89 to Harrison 86.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Okay, it looked like an 88 to2.
I think the gun was fired itwas a light gun, brownie.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Still, I mean 86 is a position player.
Did you see how I got him out?
No, I didn't.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
You got your first hitter out.
I did it was a breaking ball.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
It was a breaking ball.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Hey.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Victor Martinez fires down the two and he's like, oh
yeah, but there's High fiveafterward.
Well, thank goodness thebreaking ball didn't break.
It was a backup, it was abackup.
Because if it would have brokeand actually broke, you would
have crushed it.
But it kind of backed up andgot off the barrel a little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
But I saw the fly ball, then you sprinted off the
mound.
Once you got the dugout, it wasokay.
So that's June 29, 2011.
And then, a handful of dayslater, July 2nd of that year,
against the Giants at Comericain Detroit, the Tigers lose this
game 15-3.
Fourth inning, Victor Martinezgets hurt A shoulder injury.
(09:55):
I guess you come on to catch.
I came on to catch.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
In the fourth I had to cover six innings.
First time, first time, stop,yeah.
So what happened is we had anhour and a half rain delay at
the start of the game.
We played two innings, hadanother hour and a half rain
delay and in the top of thethird inning, victor Martinez
took a foul ball.
That pad on the shoulder.
(10:19):
It got underneath it or aroundit and drilled him in the
shoulder.
We were down 10 zip and sothree hours worth of rain delays
.
It was already 10, 30, 11o'clock at night.
Yeah, he didn't want to put avela in because we had a day
game the next day so he's likeall right, get your gear, you're
going in.
What are you doing?
Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
you should be getting ready to catch, so so you go in
there.
What's more nerve-wracking?
Could you put on your gear?
Or?
Or catching for the first time,oh, catching way more.
Yeah, you're.
I think the pitcher is ryanperry ryan perry.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yeah, you end up catching three guys harry lester
, oliveris jeez and david percywow, there's no one knee down
approach.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
oh no, no, not at no, not at all.
He's up.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Well, you know what's funny?
I don't know.
I've never gone back and reallywatched it in depth.
I'm going to go watch it, butgo watch it and watch my left
knee, because the next morning Iwoke up and when I got out of
bed to go to the bathroom Icould not move my left knee and
I think I was going one kneebefore there was one knee.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I think he didn't want anything to do with you.
I love it.
There we go.
He started it.
Larry Vanover is the home plateumpire.
Does he say anything to?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
you.
I think he was more scared thanI was.
I'm not kidding, I bet I betyeah, First time a guy gets on
second base, obviously no pitch.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
No pitch, calm yet yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Right, so we're putting down the signs.
Ryan Perry's on the mound therewas 97 filthy stuff.
You're a nervous wreck rightnow.
Nervous wreck Guy's on secondbase.
I fire it down.
We're going.
Second sign I get through it.
I set up.
I'm like, oh crap, what did Iput down?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
I couldn't remember what the second sign was.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
So I'm like hey ended up outside the dirt, he called
time and ran.
It wasn't just like normal no.
I'm not here.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I'm not here.
So the experience what was itlike then?
When all was said and done, itwas the most fun that I've had.
How do you think you did?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
I mean, I did not do well.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Did the game end and you were alive.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
The game ended, I was alive, I was walking the next
day, I only gave up five runs.
I told Victor.
I said you gave up 10 and three.
I only gave up five, I onlygave up grinds.
We lost 15 to three but like itwas the most fun I had because
you're as a catcher In it,you're watching swings, you're
trying to do it, you're tryingto, and I told the pitcher I'm
(12:39):
like, listen, I don't know topitch, throw what you want to
throw, because I don't know theyonly shook like four or five
times.
That's awesome the whole timeand like in it I caught a pop-up
yeah, yeah, was thatnerve-wracking?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
oh, it's different.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
It comes back and you're like wait a minute, wait
a minute, yeah, yeah, it wascrazy how much appreciation,
just for that short amount oftime, do you get for that
position then, just havingplayed it in the big leagues?
A ton really, yes, even thoughyou only I don't know how they
do it.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Alex avila that year and I would have to go back and
look, maybe leonard could tellus played 130 some 140 games he
played almost every day andjustin verlander was phenomenal.
I mean, there he had a seasonfor the ages.
You know MVP yeah he did.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
That's right JA to center field.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
That's right, but Alex Avila played every day.
Verlander was MVP, cy Young,everything, and it was arguably
a toss-up in the clubhouse onwho the MVP of the team was,
because Alex played every singleday, hit 19 home runs, hit two
80s, like just the way that hedid it.
Yes, verlander was invaluableand great, but Alex was as much
(13:51):
of a.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
With no emotion the whole time.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
No, emotion Zero Dude .
What a guy yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Played with the Dominican.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
One of those guys started that game Verlander
Scherzer, I think.
By the way, which when you wentand caught, when you went and
got caught.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Oh really, I don't even remember.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, you ended up catching Ryan.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Perry.
What a duo in Detroit, right.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
So you're talking about the appreciation you had
then for that position, andthat's the case too with you,
donnie, because you played allnine positions.
But you really were a superutility guy.
You played all the infieldpositions and now now you become
a coach in the major leagues.
So that is invaluable that youtruly can teach all these
(14:30):
different positions to theseplayers.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
You're like a Swiss army knife for the as a coach
you know, and I think that thethe biggest thing and for you
would know, like the mindset ofthe work and how you go about,
how you prepare every day, howyou compete, how you show up and
we've we talked about Trioloand the other podcasts like just
(14:52):
the way these guys prepare, theway they work, the way they
compete.
Yeah, we can talk abouttechnicalities, we can talk
about getting better and stilldeveloping at the big league
level, but how you go about it,how you compete, how you prepare
, is so important.
And trying to really dive in onthat with these guys, because
the intricate details of howyou're going to do it,
everybody's going to do itdifferent.
(15:12):
Everybody's going to catchdifferent.
Everybody's going to, you know,have a different way to go
about playing third base.
You know, triolo and CabrionHayes I mean there's not a
better tandem in the big leaguesthan I mean Cabrian Hayes is
probably the best defensivethird baseman.
Jared Triolo is, you know,right there with him and to have
those two guys, but they don'tplay it the exact same way.
(15:33):
You know, and understanding howthese guys move, how they think
, how they go about it andtrying to help them any way you
can and every position.
I don't know how qualified I amto teach catchers.
I will not be trying to do that.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Well, but we talked earlier about Triolo getting
this gold glove and how goodthat feels, and you've talked
about it graciously that hecertainly deserves it, the work
he put in.
But coaching is so much a partof it People don't believe it
anymore, but maybe more so thanever.
There's more coaching in thebig leagues than there was 40
(16:12):
years ago.
It seems that there's playersare being coached up at the big
league level like never before.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Yeah, and you know what?
I think the guys are getting tothe big leagues a lot faster, a
lot younger in that developmentcurve.
There's still a lot ofdevelopment interesting.
Would be interested to hearyour take forward on it of, like
you know, when you get to thebig leagues from a physical
development standpoint you stillhave that.
But when you get to the bigleagues and you add the lights
and you add the media and youadd the fans and you add mlb
(16:40):
network and espn and highlightsand low lights and you add MLB
Network and ESPN and highlightsand lowlights and the bloopers
and everything that comes aroundwith being in the big leagues,
there's a lot more to deal within the big leagues than just
physical development.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, I mean you also think about the off-the-field
things that are kind of requiredof you, your family and friends
that are coming out of thewoodworks.
That kind of came out ofnowhere.
So there's a lot to be saidabout that.
Go back to what you were sayingabout playing all these
positions and the mindset.
How did you pick and choose onwhat to work on?
Because I mean, there's times,yes, you're probably falling
(17:16):
into where for a month, you'replaying second base most often,
but then all of a sudden you'replaying third.
You're playing right, you mayjump out in center.
What?
All of a sudden you're playingthird.
You're playing right, you mayjump out in center.
What's the balance?
Yeah, right, how do you, how doyou keep that up?
Because a ball in center fieldis completely different.
I played left and right some.
It's completely different andif you don't see one for three,
four or five weeks, yeah, it's ajoke.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
well, you know what for me it was is.
Bp was not just a time to gothrough the motions and feel
good.
That was my work.
Earlier, I referenced takingground balls at third.
I had to take ground balls atthird base every single day to
feel prepared in the infield,and then I would just rotate
left, center, right, left,center, right, just go and
(17:57):
sometimes I would get a feel formaybe where I would play.
So I would go there, but a lotof times just trying to figure
out where do I need to go tofeel comfortable, to feel no
script of where you were goingto play.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
What were your go-tos on that given day?
Third, your identity.
And then what about theoutfield?
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Left and right Center Always felt comfortable.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, it was more true.
Yeah, it's more true.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Perfect when it comes to your coaching philosophy.
We talked about your minorleague playing days and some of
the managers that you playedwith.
Jim Leland stands out, ofcourse.
He's the longest in terms ofwho managed you, but I assume,
donnie, that you take from allkinds of coaches and managers
(18:45):
over your career, correct, nodoubt?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
You learned from a bunch of them.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
And some of the guys that manage you at the minor
league level.
I'm looking like this all-starfor veteran baseball fans.
You'll know the names PhilNevin, larry Parrish, bill
Plummer, trent Jewett of course,with the Pirates Duffy Dyer,
former Pirates catcher RickSweet, phil Riggin.
Gary Green coached you in theminors with the Tigers.
(19:12):
He's now, of course, aPittsburgher.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Greeny's the best.
So Greeny, poor Greeny.
My oldest brother-in-law, wasdrafted by the Tigers in 2000.
He had Gary Green.
Gary Green managed him in 2000.
Then I was drafted in 01.
He managed me in 01.
02, he got moved up to Lakelandand had Matt again in 02.
Then I made it to Lakeland.
He had me in 03.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
And then he had Neil in 05.
, he came over with the Pirates,so, gary.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Green has managed me and Neil and my oldest
brother-in-law, Matt you wonderwhy he's got gray white hair.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
That's crazy.
We jacked him up by the way,speaking of that, it was a
winning streak that cost youyour hair, right, it was
Five-game winning streak.
What was that?
What?
Speaker 3 (19:57):
went into that.
I bet the staff that if we wonfive games in a row and it was
in 2022, that I would shave myhead and the middle part was
going anyway.
So we didn't win five in a rowin 22.
So going into 23, it turnedinto more of a lot of people
(20:18):
signed up for stuff, but we wonfive games in a row in April of
23, and I haven't gone back.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
It looks good it does look good yeah, what makes Jim
Leland a Hall of Fame manager?
Jim.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Leland cares.
He cares about people, he caresabout his players and it was
evident in the way that heshowed that.
You know, and I'm sure you guyshave seen it, caring is getting
on you sometimes, you know, andwhen that it's, you know,
everybody in Pittsburgh has seenthe one with him and Barry
Bonds and he got on Barry.
(20:50):
But it wasn't because he didn'tlike Barry, he got on him
because he cared about him andbut there were times that he
would just cry.
I'll never forget 2011.
We got beat by the TexasRangers and he came in and just
tears flowing about how proud hewas of was of us, how much we
gave him.
We gave him everything we had.
I'm so proud of you guys, youknow, just proud of you guys.
You know, just crying his eyesout, like, but that was the way
(21:12):
that he showed it the way hecommunicated, the way he cared.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
He was so sincere and vulnerable.
I think that's so huge thatplayers appreciate that
vulnerability that Lelanddoesn't suggest he's an expert,
knows everything.
He's vulnerable and and heopens up and and uh, the wall
breaks down.
I think people appreciate thattoo.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
They did, players, did you know?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
and to be able to see that you can identify with that
it is and we're human.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
You know Whether you're a player, coach, you know
broadcaster, we're human.
And yes, like we talked earlierabout, you know the fans and
the disappointment of this yearand not winning.
We feel it too and to be ableto express that and let the fans
know that and it's part of yes,we're disappointed every single
night that we don't win a game.
(21:59):
And how are we going to workand continue to get better to
eventually win?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
here in Pittsburgh, donnie, the story goes that it
was Jim Leland who actuallytalked to Shelton about bringing
you onto this staff.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
How did you end up?
Oh, you don't know that, Idon't know.
Oh, wow, wow, he just shows upand works.
Yeah, that's right, I don'tknow.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
And you show up and work the season compared to
off-season and pre-season orspring training, those kind of
almost three phases of abaseball life.
What's that like for you?
What's the daily grind in theseason?
What's the off season like interms of being able to kind of
exhale, spend time with thefamily, and then the grind of
(22:42):
getting it back into it andsetting that schedule for spring
training and all the work thatgoes into it yeah the uh.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
So we start in spring .
As a bench coach, springtraining is toughest time of the
year for me.
It's because you're a fieldcoordinator.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yes, you do, everything, you do everything.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
It's wild.
You're there at the latest I'mthere is probably 4.30.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
You're at the ballpark at 4.30 am 4.30 am.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
That's the only time that I can get by myself to
compose my thoughts and geteverything up on the white board
for what we're trying to do.
You know the schedule's alreadyset for that day you're
planning.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
You're always at least two days ahead and then
there's an atomic nuke thatdrops on him at about, you know,
eight o'clock.
Hey, so, and so can't throw.
Today.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
This is happening here, and it's like no game no,
he just is happening here andit's like, ah, no game, no BT,
he just does it in stride.
He's like yeah, yeah, get someguns.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah spring training is crazy.
I mean I'm there 4 to 4.30 andprobably leaving at 6.30, 7
o'clock.
It's sleep, go to the ballpark,sleep like there's no, no time,
and I love it's.
It's great getting ready forthe season, getting the guys
prepared, um, trying to makesure that you're touching all
(23:56):
the bases, so to speak, ofmaking sure that guys are ready
for the season.
Get into the season.
From spring training thingsslow down a little bit, but it's
still still every single day.
You know like you guys know howit is like.
There's no very little breaks.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Even an off day is very little where you're
traveling or you know what's therelationship like with Derek
Shelton Great.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Great yeah, we have a good relationship.
Communicate.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Feedback, good feedback, back and forth, and so
on.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I see him at a clubhouse often.
I don't go in Shelton's office,I don't bother him often, but
they're always chit-chat alwayskind of planning and maybe three
, four days ahead.
You see it all the time it'skind of remarkable.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
What's it like realizing that your playing days
are over Because you spent, Ithink, the last two years, if
I'm not mistaken, with theMarlins.
Yeah, did you get hurt afteronly a couple games?
Speaker 3 (24:48):
2015,.
I got hurt and then I ended uphaving Tommy John.
Oh wow.
And so that was the beginningof the end.
Came back in 2016, got back upto the big leagues for a little
bit, but most of the time in AAAit was good.
I knew I was done.
You did yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I knew, is that frightening.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I was not scared at all how did you know you were
done?
We've asked this question acouple times.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
To people yes, I didn't have it.
What's it?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
to you.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I don't know, you just knew it.
But you knew it, you didn'twake up and want to go to the
ballpark.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
That drive of.
Like you know, for me tocompete at the big league level,
I had to run through a wall.
I had to do everything as wellas I could because I wasn't the
most talented guy.
I could just tell that it wastrending down.
The bat started to feel like atelephone pole.
You know you're getting older,the mindset shifted.
(25:43):
I knew and you know what wascool about it.
I didn't have any regrets.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
There were no what-ifs, no regrets.
That's a great point.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
There were no what-ifs of what if.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I no regrets, no regrets, no regrets.
Well, you know your last game,the final game in the big
leagues, july 27, 2016,.
You go three for five, drive intwo and an 11-1 win over the
Phillies.
Two triples Jeez, I mean,that's a heck of a way to go.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Stop it Two triples.
Jeez, I mean, that's a heck ofa way to go out.
Stop it Two triples.
Who's running?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I was yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
I thought you were getting old.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Well, you know what?
They probably knew that I wasgoing down.
They were probably scared todeath as I was running.
I was going to pull a hammy orsomething going around.
Like you said, you leave it allout there.
Leave it all out there and tohave that game, and you know
(26:37):
what is really crazy about that.
The last thing that JoseFernandez said to me and Jose
Fernandez passed awayunfortunately in the boating
accident.
But the last thing he said to mewhen he was leaving the
clubhouse that day is I'm sorry,bro, it shouldn't be you About
getting sent down.
That means a lot coming fromguys like him From him, but then
, when everything happened, theonly thing that I can think of
(26:57):
is it shouldn't be you Like.
Why did he?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
die.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
You know like you talk about a guy that was at the
top of baseball, that was goingto be the face of baseball.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
You ever see anybody that electric oh no, and that
charismatic?
Just personality, charismaticface of baseball you ever see
anybody that electric, oh no,and that character, personality
charismatic charisma.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I mean you could put the mlb face.
Yes with him.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
He was gonna heartbeat yeah you know and and
just so tragic of of whathappened, because talent and you
know just the way that hecarried himself as a, as an
opponent.
I'm sure he could tick you offbecause of the way that he was,
but as a teammate all he wantedto do was win.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah.
You know He'll go to the bunkerwith anybody like that.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
It's so wild to have pitchers over the years that you
can actually talk to as abroadcaster reporter, whoever it
might be on the day they start.
And he didn't care.
He was like Jose Lima Didn'tcare, he sought out people.
He didn't care, he was likeJose Lima Didn't care, he sought
out people.
Let's go, let's talk.
You know the old.
It's pretty standard that youdon't talk to the starting
pitcher that day.
You're not supposed to anyway,but they actually would.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Well, it's somewhere to put your energy, Like for
guys like him?
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, that's true.
He's so geeked out, right?
Yeah, needed that.
Yeah, you go back to the minorsand finish up in the marlin
system, right yep?
And then, at the end of thatseason, now your baseball career
is over, how did you get intoscouting, was it right?
The very next year?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
it was the next year.
Yeah and uh, I had no idea whatI wanted to do.
No idea whatsoever and you knowwhen you get to the end.
I had no regrets about playing.
I knew that I wanted to dosomething in baseball, but I had
no idea what, and I called afew people Al Avila was one who
was with Detroit.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
A general manager.
In Detroit and he asked me,he's like well, what do you want
to do?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I said Al, I have no idea how about that.
And I said, well, I was like,hey, what about one of those
special assistant jobs?
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah, yeah, give me one of those.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
In Detroit.
Those special assistants areJim Leland, alan Trammell, kirk
Gibson.
You know like iconic baseballguys.
I said I'm not looking for atitle, like I just want to learn
.
I want to learn the other sideof the game what it is.
So he had Scott Bream is thepro scouting director over there
and Dave Littlefield, former GMof the Pirates, was running the
(29:14):
minor leagues.
So, man, it was awesome.
They put together a job thatwas half pro scouting, half
player development, that I couldgo on to both sides and learn
that side of the game.
And a funny story when DaveLittlefield called to talk to me
about the position andeverything and I was like Dave,
are you sure you want to do this?
And he's like yeah, it's goingto be awesome.
(29:35):
Why?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I said well, I already got you fired once.
Don't want to do it again.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
That's great, oh, that's good.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Dave's doing some scouting for Korean baseball Now
by the way, dave Littlefield,good, good guy.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
How many years in scouting, then, and player
development.
So I did one year of that roleand then the following year I
was a major league scout forDetroit that I had five
organizations and that's wherePittsburgh was one of them that
I got to see some of the guysthat I ended up coaching later.
I got to scout before I coached.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Now you're scouting Donnie and are you thinking to
yourself this just isn't for me,two years of it.
I've got to get back in uniformon that field.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
What was that process like?
First, scouting-wise, you werekind of in that era of
transition.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Analytics is really picking up Good question.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
How is that balanced?
Because you're learning it allon the field, off the field,
then you go into straight majorleague scouting.
What was that day like?
Great question and the reportstoo, so the reports suck.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
When you're sitting there you're trying to write the
reports, you talk to any scout.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
They'll say this has been going on forever.
They can't stand them.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
The reports are awful Because that was a job that I
almost the twins called and Idon't know why the twins.
It was really strange and I,Okay, well then, I got some
paperwork.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
I'm like, oh, Not for me, oh it's tough man when
you're sitting there in front ofthe computer and, like I know,
when you see a player you knowwhat you think.
But then to actually put itdown in report format and
outline everything and try to beconsistent and all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
They would have thought I was drinking.
Oh man, it was crazy.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
I can't imagine drinking too much coffee.
Yeah, it's wild, isn't it?
But you know what?
I'm really thankful for itbecause it gave me a different
perspective on the game intrying to truly evaluate talent
from a zero bar of like okay,who's good and who's not.
And I think that you mentionedthe analytics.
I really believe that inbaseball we need scouts and we
(31:28):
need analytics, because it's ablend.
It's the best way to try tofigure out.
We're never going to know forsure who that player is, but if
we rely just on one or the other, we could miss something.
So if we have both and we canget a scout that can get
information to try to figure outwho this player is, we're going
to see the numbers on what theanalytics are.
(31:50):
And analytics, I think, for meas a player, when they first
came in, I don't know how youfelt for it, but I don't know if
intimidated was the right word,but I didn't trust them.
Like, what are they trying todo?
They're trying to make me looklike I'm bad, but as I've gotten
into coaching, the numbers arethere to try to figure out who's
good and who's not, from ahistorical perspective of being
(32:11):
a true zero.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
You know like I think the pa did a bad job with it at
first like an association.
Yeah, I hate to throw one ofthe bus, but they, they kind of
made us push back a little bitlike don't throw in with the rap
sodo, don't like, and I thinkit was because they thought they
were going to use it against us, you know arbitration,
everything else sure, but at thesame time, if you've read the
art of war, we should understandthat to the extent we can use
(32:36):
it against them.
And I don't think that startedhappening until 1819, a little
bit further on.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
But yeah, to your point it should be a benefit for
everybody if you use itproperly yeah, you know and like
to, so to be able to scout andget a seat higher up, watch guys
compete, how they play off, offthe field, looking down at it.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
right, they say that the game gets easier the farther
away you get from the field.
Is that true?
It slows down, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Well, I'll tell you what.
So I wrote at my office, athome.
I wrote don't ever forget dotdot dot.
Because to me, I never want toforget how hard it is to play at
this level, to play baseball inthe minor leagues, but then you
get to the big leagues and youhad everything in like, I don't
want to forget how hard it isfor what these guys are trying
(33:19):
to do every single night playingthis game.
It's, it's the hardest thing inthe world.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I still try to hit some and do some stuff to make
sure I remember, like you know,what I mean.
Like if I'm gonna tell somebodysomething about their swing or
anything else, I'm going to gotry it and be like I don't even
understand what I'm trying tosay.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
So I can kind of get how they feel.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Donnie, were you a good scout.
Was I a good scout, were you agood scout yourself.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
As a scout You'd have to ask my boss on that.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
I'll call Littlefield and see what he says.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yeah, you could ask Dave.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
You really can't self-assess whether you were
good, especially now.
I would think that now, havingdone it for two years now down
the road, some of the guys youscouted you're seeing you can
remember.
You know I was wrong on thatguy, I did pretty good.
Okay, that's good to knowInteresting.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
You've got to remember with his career he was
looking at outliers most guyswouldn't look at True.
I talk to scouts all the timeover at PNC they're always
trying to just pick.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
I love them.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
And that's what most scouts do.
This dude's sitting thereanalyzing the game, watching it
differently.
You can tell the guys that aredifferent, and he would have
been one of them.
Oh, that was almost a don't.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
Well, yeah, I would say I did pretty good.
I mean I missed on some guys,but I was pretty close on a lot
of guys.
I mean you're never going to beperfect, but for only doing it
for a couple years I'd say I waspretty good.
I mean I wouldn't say I was agreat scout.
You know you're talking aboutguys like John Mercurio, bruce
Tanner, mike Russell was a bigmentor for me, scott Bream was
(34:48):
my boss.
Like those guys have seen somuch and done so much scouting.
Like I was definitely not ontheir level but I feel like I
did okay.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Well, you again.
A greater appreciation, however, for scouts now that you didn't
have before, correct, no doubt.
So now, when you hear fromscouts within the organization,
do you think you're listeningcloser to them than you would
have had not had that experience, I would think so.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
You know we've got some great guys in our pro
scouting department that have alot of experience and you know
they've done tremendous.
I love talking to them at ourmeetings.
They'd have a lot of experience.
They've done tremendous.
I love talking to them at ourmeetings.
Do you know McNally at all, notwell, not well, I know of him.
Hottie Rod, andrew Lorraine,they were all in.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just talking to them about it.
It's fun because for many yearsin a former life I would really
hang out in the press room withthe scouts, would go out on
occasion and watch players withscouts and watch that life the
part-time scouts, by the way,not even the pro scouts, the
bird dogs and so I just wonderthe evolution of the game?
(36:03):
Yes, those statistics, theanalytics so important.
We hear that all the time it'sstriking the balance.
I wonder sometimes whether thatbalance is being struck.
Sometimes I wonder if, slowlybut surely, they're pushing
those scouts off to the side.
I don't know, I wonder, I worry.
I hope that's not the case.
I worry too Because I justthink they're so valuable
(36:25):
because and you know it, donniethere's so many things when you
watch a baseball game that thereis no way you can measure what
we just saw.
There's just no way.
There's no way you know what.
That runner at first basetaking that bigger lead, who's a
threat to steal, what he doesto that mindset of that pitcher.
There's just no way to knowthat.
There's just no way to knowthat.
There's no way to know does thecatcher call something
(36:46):
different because of that?
That's just one minute, smallarea, but that happens all the
time during the course of abaseball game.
You're right, and you justwonder.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
And that wins you one-run games.
Well, yeah, those little thingswin you one-run games 100%
You're right.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
So you go from scouting for two years and now
you wind up as a coach for theHouston Astros.
How'd that happen?
Speaker 3 (37:07):
so when I was with the Diamondbacks in 08, aj Hinch
was the director of playerdevelopment and AJ and my boss
with Detroit, scott Bream, arereally good friends, so I don't
know exactly what transpiredthere, but AJ called the one day
and, uh, they called the Tigersand asked for permission to
(37:27):
interview me.
Aj called, I went down,interviewed for the job and
ended up.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Did you have your, did you have a feeler out there,
like, did people know that youmaybe wanted to get on the field
?
Scott?
Speaker 3 (37:38):
did.
Scott knew that.
Eventually I wanted to get backon the field because scouting
is so tough.
You know we're competitors.
You know we came up playing thegame.
You get that win, loss.
At the end of the day.
As a scout, there's no win orloss.
You know it's really hard.
You're by yourself all the time.
There's no camaraderie likewhat these guys do.
They're on the road all thetime filing it's them and their
(37:59):
computer you know, and writingreports can be a lonely life I'm
Speaker 2 (38:02):
sure you know brought brought life back to me this
year having a teammate, kind ofa battery because I did miss
that, because there's a lot oftimes where, like you know,
these hosts have their ownroutine.
Me and rob king, if he's there,like yeah, he's, he's in there
as my teammate, but you know alihayley played with different
people like potash doesn't watchthe game with me yeah, you know
these people, so I'm in thereby myself, I have a room with
(38:23):
all the cameras and I'm justlike you do miss that.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Yeah, you miss that.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
And there's times where you get a call and you're
like, yeah, I'm thinking aboutit, but I was wondering if you
were putting feelers out thereor whatnot.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Yeah, no, I didn't.
My boss at Detroit knew that.
Eventually, I think I wanted toget back on the field, but it's
not.
Yeah, you don't.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah, it just happens .
It just happens.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
First base coach for the Astros in 19, right Good
team.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Great team.
Okay, team it was two yearsafter the World Series so we
went to the World Series in 19.
17 is when they won it.
What's that mean?
They won it, though we're notgoing to talk about that.
I wasn't there, so I don't knowmuch about cans.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
What do you know?
Speaker 3 (39:02):
about trash cans.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
As we're recording this podcast, the president is
picking his cabinet, thepresident-elect, so we'd go in
front of Congress.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
What did you know, Mr Kelly, about the trash can I
will say this what did you know?
I will say this there's no wayif I'm hitting, I'm trusting a
banging of a trash.
Can I'm?
Speaker 3 (39:20):
with you, brother.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, so I mean nothing.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
I don't understand for the life of me.
If everybody could hear it, whydoesn't the pitcher decide that
won't happen anymore?
Like he tells the catcher, youtell the batter the next time.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
We would have thrown it at their head.
It's right in your back.
That's exactly what happened,bizarre to me.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Everybody else knew it, but the pitcher had to know
it and once period.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Yeah, so 19 was a good year.
There was none of that going on, I can tell you.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Like I was not aware of it, yeah, um you know that of
what happened in 17 and therewas none of that going on in 19,
and what a great team, butanother, yeah, I mean, holy what
a great team.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Yeah, I mean, it was up there the teams that I was
fortunate to be on in detroitwere phenomenal, and the team in
houston, when you're runningverlander, cole and Cranky out
there as a starting rotationwith.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yikes Unbelievable With.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
Bregman Correa, altuve, gurriel Brantley,
springer, josh Reddick, AlvarezRobinson, torino.
I mean, it was unreal.
Wow, you get that taste.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Winning again this time as a coach, then you become
a bench coach.
And winning again this time asa coach, then you become a bench
coach An opportunity tointerview for a big league
manager's job.
Is that something Sillyquestion, but I'll ask it anyway
.
Something you strive to dosomeday.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Yeah, I would love to manage someday, very content
and happy where I'm at, beinghere at home with Pittsburgh and
continuing to get better.
I think that someday down theroad I would love to have that
opportunity Do you think you'dbe a good manager?
I think that we all well like,yeah, I would love to do it.
You know you learning a lotright now on thing, good things,
(40:56):
bad things, things that I'vescrewed up in conversations and,
you know, just trying to getbetter every single day and if
that opportunity presents downthe road, we'd love that
challenge, love it.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
What do you think the ?
We had a debate a couple monthsago.
No, not me and you.
Well, you and I and somebodyelse was.
I don't know who it was.
Might've been Jason Mackey, Iforget who it was, probably not.
On a Hold my Cutter podcastabout identity.
What's the personality of ateam?
Speaker 2 (41:23):
And I'm big into it my argument is.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
it's absurd.
You know what the personalityof the team it's winning, I mean
so that's an identity.
I've heard, yeah, okay, that'sfine If that's the identity.
But you know, I've heard thisdebate.
Donnie and Michael and I havetalked about this over the years
too.
Oh, I've heard people say, oh,they've got a great clubhouse.
You know what's a greatclubhouse, a winning clubhouse.
I don't want a great clubhousewhen you're losing.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
I want people miserable.
I wonder what your thoughts areabout that.
That's what standards in mymind.
That's why we argue a littlebit.
The losing side, I get themiserable, but that's what the
standard of the identity.
If you have expectations here,you're not going to be happy
letting them fall down.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Let's just say a losing team, any team, any sport
in baseball lose 100 games.
Football.
Don't sniff the playoffs, ohboy.
But we had a great clubhouse, agreat locker room.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Oh, that's the worst time to say it.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
What did he do?
What good is that?
That's not good.
I've often thought about this.
As far as, like, what comesfirst, chemistry and culture,
right or winning and I thinkthey both can breed each other.
I don't think that therethere's one way or that.
It's kind of like talking aboutscouting and analytics.
Yeah, I think you need, youneed both and you need things to
to mesh and gel and guys toshow up every day on, like.
(42:42):
I look back at our time indetroit and we talked earlier in
the other podcast about 2011with the Pirates, 2012 with the
Pirates.
That led to 13, 14, 15.
I look back at our time inDetroit when we signed Victor
Martinez.
There were some things thatwent on.
Music was one of them thatstarted.
It was that time in Detroitwhen we started playing music in
(43:02):
the clubhouse, and it was thatthat time in detroit when we
started playing music in theclubhouse and it was a starting
pitcher and all this stuff waswhen the players took control of
the clubhouse say it again ohthat's it it's when the players
took control.
Jim leland was a phenomenalmanager.
He's consistent, he cared abouteverybody.
But at the end of the day, Ireally believe that on bad teams
(43:27):
, nobody leads.
On good teams, coaches lead Ongreat teams.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
The players lead, that's well said.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Because it goes back to leadership.
The whole identity ofleadership is being a servant
leader and creating leadersaround you.
Yes, you know, hurdle triedsomething in 13.
I don't think it really worked.
Worked, but he had a wolf packwhere the catchers had a wolf
pack.
Russell led that.
Well, the county startingpitcher about the council.
It was a count we called it thewolf pack.
Well, when that stopped and thewolf pack came together in the
(43:55):
clubhouse, we didn't we didn'tlose much, you know, because
they didn't need hurdle.
And then, I think, hurdlerealized that he stepped back.
And that's what great leadersdo to your point.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
And then let the players go.
Ultimately, it's the player'steam and, as a servant leader,
we're there to try to shepherdthat and help with that culture,
help with accountability.
But when you have a great team,the players are holding each
other accountable.
The players, they set thestandard of what we're trying to
(44:24):
do and how they go about it.
And when you're a teammate, andyou can, you know that, dude, I
love you, I respect you, theway you play.
When I can get on you in thatway that you're not playing the
game the right way, the way thatwe expect, yeah, sometimes it's
got to come from the coaches,but when it's most impactful is
when it comes from the players.
And when, in detroit, when theplayers took control of the
(44:46):
clubhouse and we started topolice ourselves, is when
everything really started totake off and let me add to that,
so that go back to the identitything.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
I know not a big fan of it, but it's the turnover
that's the problem.
You can't do that with aconsistent turnover now having a
staple in paul skeens and youhave guys with no crews in
center brian reynolds, you havekeller, you have guys that are
here now.
They've created a standardbecause they continue to show up
.
You're in, you're out.
In detroit, same thing 11, 12,13.
(45:14):
We had the staple of a teamgrowing together in 11.
The court kept coming back.
You know, you had pedro, youhad neil, you had kutch,
obviously, but it kept comingback and that made something of
it.
Obviously, you throw in AJ, youthrow in Lariano.
They all had their things thatthey would take control of, but
they understood what they tookcontrol of.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
Yeah, I don't disagree with that.
No, I don't.
I think that now can winninghelp.
Winning helps with that.
I do think that yes.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
But can it not create a false identity?
Winning yeah, because, like yousaid, you could be way up here
and you are winning, but youreally don't know how.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
Yeah, how are we winning?
Why are we winning?
Are we all showing up?
Speaker 2 (45:57):
I'm playing terrible, but we're winning and then it's
like you start losing.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
Why are we losing?
We are still playing terrible.
They're just playing better.
So I know for you've been in,you've sat in on some of the
advanced meetings in in the, inthe cage, and I sometimes I feel
redundant when I talk about itand I try not to beat it to.
You know, beat a dead horse,but challenging our guys to show
up every day to help the teamwin.
I would love for it to be inthe batter's box.
I would love for you to go fourfor four with three home runs,
six RBIs and.
But guess what?
It's not going to happen.
No, you know that's very rare.
(46:31):
How can you show up every day tohelp us win?
Maybe it's on the bases, maybeit's defense, maybe it's being a
teammate and picking somebodyelse up, maybe it's being a guy
on the bench that picks up a tip, and when that culture starts
to resonate and that culturestarts to that, I'm showing up.
Yes, I want to.
I want to show up and do wellfor myself, but I want to show
up and see you guys do well andI want to win the game.
(46:53):
How can I sell out to that andshow up to win and do whatever
is needed to be done to win thatbaseball game and at the end of
the year, guess whateverybody's going to have?
They're going to have goodnumbers, right, and they're
gonna keep the team together.
And that's that's what I saw indetroit.
And you know, to be able to guy, to be able to be a guy that
stuck around for six years withthe tigers that wasn't an
(47:16):
all-star type player, but to bethere as a teammate and perform
when I needed to have some goodmoments, have some bad moments
too, but be there ultimately.
And that's what I think JimLeland was really good at.
You know, when you see a guylike rock, you see a guy like
Kangel OC, you know I hope thatI was in that same category of
showing up every day to dosomething to win, regardless of
(47:39):
what my numbers look like.
That's when you can start tocreate a team and have that team
identity of showing up to win.
So I don't know if it'snecessarily.
Yes, there's culture that canlead to that.
Winning can help breed that.
I don't know which comes first,but I think at the end of the
day, you need to have guys thatshow up for each other, with
each other, to go out there andcompete and that's hard to find.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
You know what I mean.
Like you look at the Yankees tothe Dodgers in the last World
Series, you could tell whichteam was different.
Like both have absurd talent,but you could tell one was
waiting on the big explosion andone was winning with Kiki
Hernandez was winning withMichael Taylor Just different,
(48:22):
right.
That's the whole identity.
Great point the bullpen won theWorld Series.
For the Dodgers they had 98guys on the IL, right?
This isn't the year they shouldhave won.
Otani didn't do anything.
They didn't care.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
So to that point, everybody talks about the fifth
inning of was it game six, Ithink, or game five, where they
scored five runs in the fifthyeah, yeah, yeah they hadn't
scored and Mookie Betts came offwith bases loaded and one out.
Yeah, how many times is a?
Right-handed hitter call do youhit a ground?
You?
miss hit a ball to first baseand everyone talks about you
(48:57):
know Garrett not covering andRizzo you know fielding it.
Should he have gotten to firstor not?
But the thing that I saw inthat is mookie bets from the
time he hit the ball, busted hisbutt all the way through first
base.
That to me, that is identity.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
That is how he's creating a standard.
That's, above all else, if yourbest player is doing it, what
is our like?
We talked about that.
Brian rolls all year, all year.
As good as he was, even in hisworst moments, that man was
getting it down the line Everysingle day.
Speaker 3 (49:25):
So you have no excuse , no excuse.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Right, like when Kutch played for two weeks and
went off and he's limping tofirst base.
You have no excuse, no excuse,and that's what you start to see
.
That's the identity shift.
It's like we are going to winat all costs.
And if I feel like team todayin any way, whether it's like
(49:51):
stealing signs or anything else,I'm going to.
I mean, I got called up withthe Cardinals against the
Pirates, stole their signs thefirst minute I got there.
We won the game because I wasable to steal some signs and
that only happened because ofYadier Molina.
He let me lead the pitchers,meeting my first moment with the
most, in my mind, most iconiccatcher.
But that created something andonce again it was led by the.
Who Got it?
Lena, a position player, aplayer, but the guy that
(50:11):
undressed my bag and did mylocker was Wainwright.
Talk about a standard.
That was changed in theplayoffs that year.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
We get down the weeds on it, because we really break
it down.
You say that's their identity.
So Mookie Betts does that.
Well, we also, the same seriessee an outfielder no disrespect
but Teoscar Hernandez, it's afly ball, should have been easy.
Double, if not a triple, andbarely you know gets to first
base.
So it's not an identity thattakes over the whole team.
Speaker 3 (50:45):
I mean, you'd love for 25, 26 guys to do that, but
it doesn't necessarily happen.
But what is the conversationthat maybe happens between some
of those guys and Teoscar?
I understand?
The only thing I'll say isTeoscar.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Hernandez.
It wasn't his first game in thebig leagues.
He's been around a long timeand it just it happens.
I know we always say this.
There's always that addendum atthe end that we always say no
excuses, but it does happen.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
He but it, it happens it does and it's how long it
lingers.
For me, like, if he does itagain and again, that's a
problem.
If he does it once and it's aonce and off, you're like okay.
So do you think it?
Speaker 1 (51:13):
is again, we'll go down a different rabbit hole.
We won't do that.
Spend this time with with thethe don, with talking about this
.
But you would think, after allthis time, all the discussion,
all the talk, the talk aboutMookie Betts, brian Reynolds,
these guys that bust it all thetime, it's just, it's hard this
is of the fan in me, apologize,you guys have been down there.
(51:33):
It's just hard to imagine.
Although my buddy, john Wader,always goes like I'm sorry,
there just is no excuse at thebig league level, or the
professional level for thatmatter, or the professional
level for that matter, that ithappens at all, but it does it
does happen.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
And you know, I think that that's the challenge is
we're human and these guys arehuman when you can have those
conversations around, hey, it'sunacceptable.
If we're going to dog it, that'snot the way that we're going to
compete and play, that's notthe standard that we're going to
hold ourselves to.
And how do we continually?
(52:07):
It's never going to be perfect,nobody's perfect, and there's
going to be times that we dofall short.
But how quickly do we addressthat issue?
How quickly do we get back onthe horse and continue to
compete to win?
And I remember Teoscar.
What was the?
He came up with a big, that biggrand slam against San Diego.
(52:28):
Yes, that was before what you'retalking about but going back to
analytics and scouting, right,if we don't have scouts, we
can't see that type of attitudeand that type of commitment to
winning in the minor leagues,because you're never going to
see that in numbers.
So is there somebody that ourscouts are going out there to
(52:49):
see?
That see that moment that maybea player gets an opportunity to
play a year longer, maybe getsto the big leagues for a cup of
coffee because of the way theygo about it, and then they end
up having a heck of a career.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
Yeah, that's true, amen, that's true, I'm going to
have to run boys Well that'sperfect timing.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
Perfect timing.
I don't want him to leave.
I don't want to stop.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
The Don.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Don.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Don.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Kelly.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
Appreciate you guys.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Can't thank him enough, and we'll have him back,
no doubt about that for anotheredition of.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Hold my Cutter, thank you.
We welcome you to another episode of Hold my
Cutter Coming your way here,burned by Rocky Patel A couple
of blocks down from PNC Park.
We're sure our guest hangs outall summer long.
Of course the Ford and I do aswell.
Ford actually has his studiosright across the way here, but
just a great place to hang out.
And this portion of Hold myCutter brought to you by Eric
Katz.
With Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices, eric Katz can help you
(00:29):
with all your real estate needs, including buying a home,
building a home or selling ahome.
Take it from us.
She is the best.
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Experience, thoughtful, mostimportantly, she's trusted.
Experienced, thoughtful, mostimportantly, she's trusted a
trusted real estate agent.
We love her.
You will, too.
Give her a shout.
Go to askaracatscom.
(00:50):
That's askaracatscom.
You'll be glad you did.
And some of our guests on Holdmy Cutter receive gift cards
from David Allen Clothingfeaturing men's and women's
custom suits and luxury casualwear.
Located in Mount Lebanon, davidAllen Clothing will work with
you to build a custom wardrobethat is truly one of a kind,
(01:12):
from celebrity actors andathletes to the young
professionals.
David Allen here for you andhe's here for us.
Don Kelly, in a previousepisode we talked to the Don.
By the way, do you have thenickname for our?
We went back with the vintagewhite label Connecticut Rocky
Patel, the torpedo style.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
It's the torpedo.
So, you have the nickname, butthis is Joe Boo's favorite.
He likes the light cigar.
We're going to light him upover here.
Oh wow, joe Boo's here, he'slit up, he's smoking.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
That here.
Oh wow, joe boo's here, he'slit up, he's nice.
Yeah, that's really nice.
He likes the light cigar, so heloves the white label very.
See the white hair.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, yeah, I mean just fits.
Uh, we talked to donnie a lotabout how he got into baseball.
Don kelly's number of years nowgoing on six seasons as bench
coach for the pirates.
He's back home a yinzard,whether john wainer believes it
or not.
We believe he is and the momentsthat you you had in postseason
play with the Tigers you wereone of.
Really, when you think aboutall the players that have played
(02:13):
in Major League Baseball andyou two have had that
opportunity and such a minutenumber of the population to have
actually played in the bigleagues even smaller those
who've played nine positions inthe big leagues.
And I wonder, don, was thatsomething that, as years went on
(02:34):
, that you talked to Jim Lelandabout?
You'd love to eventually dothat, and what's interesting
about it is that pitching camefirst, I think, and about a
month later you finally checkedoff that final box of catching.
But first talk to us aboutwhether you got that in Leland's
head.
I did not, you did not know.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
So to 2011,.
We signed Victor Martinez andwhen, uh, when we signed, victor
Leland called me and he askedme actually, he didn't even ask
me if I ever caught or anythinghe told me to get some catcher's
gear because I was going to bethe emergency catcher going into
2011.
(03:14):
So yeah, it was not aconversation and I didn't
question anything.
I got the catcher's gear Yep,and we went out there in spring
training.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
And you started working on it and started
catching bullpens and learninghow to do it.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Did anybody work with you?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
in particular Because you had really not done much of
that at all Not at all.
No, Never in a big league game?
No, and I never caught anywhere.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
And so in spring training you'll like this.
So they'd send me to thebackfield in Detroit they called
it K-line field.
And in the backfield in detroitI'm on k, they called it k line
field, and in the outfield pastcenter field, whatever.
So we're back there and theyhad the machine set up halfway
just throwing as hard as itcould full gear.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
You know, receiving was okay, like I felt good, did
they tell you to wear a thumbguard by chance?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
I did wear a thumb guard yeah, yes, I had a thumb
guard.
I had the knee savers, so sixfour up on the knee savers, that
was a big target back there.
And uh, so we're back there.
They put a coach in to swingand miss or like, hit some,
right.
So that that first time thatyou're going in there and you're
catching air because you'reexpecting to catch it, yeah and
(04:22):
they hit it and there's, there'snothing there that goes good.
They're like, hey, why don't wework on blocking?
All right, no problem,hindsight, we should have thrown
it first.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
They get on the machine, they win the machine
first, bro.
That's evil.
That's evil.
Big guy blocking machine.
Listen to this.
That's evil.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
So they're out there, that's old I see them crank it
down.
You know the whole way.
You saw that first skip, didn'tyou Bro?
No, even better.
So I should have let them throwone first.
I didn't.
I stayed back there.
I'm like I'm in form, you know,go down to block it, Dude.
They never turn the speed down,so this thing comes out, Bullet
(04:58):
.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Brownie, it comes out A torpedo.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
It hits that ground, ground it goes harder.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
The problem is if it would have hit the ground, it
wouldn't harder, it never hit.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
No, no, this thing is hovering right here.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I'm a torpedo I'm sitting there like a duck.
Oh, this ball comes in and bamcrushes me in the forearm
straight right, I was straight,I was ready to block it.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
It never hit the ground.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I blocked the fastball off my forearm dude I
walked off.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I threw I went to throw the ball to center field,
I'm like no, that's way too far,and I fired it as far as I
could out to left field and justwalked off I'm like, that's it,
I'm done.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Oh, I had a huge, I had a huge.
Well, did you go back in spring, or that was it?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
oh, I went back, you did after the bruise, yeah, yeah
well, that's how they used todo blocking.
I don't know.
I'll never forget my first bigleague camp.
Jamie quirk was our catchingguy um, I believe he's a bitch
coach and javi lopez about thesame size six, four yoked out of
his mind.
He was a legend to me as growingup.
And we're blocking.
I'm a little dude, they throwin the breaking ball and this
(06:03):
thing is going probably 87 offthe dirt.
When it's a dirt it's about 107.
I have bruises all in my chestfrom blocking it.
But me, being a little guy, I'm, I'm like yeah, yeah, but my
chest hurt.
Javi, big old forearms was justloaded with marks.
Yeah, he's like I'm, I.
I'm never touching that thingagain, ever, because it is
(06:27):
miserable, because you have acut in the ball.
It goes this way.
Oh, yeah, and me being a littleguy and you know that's what I
was brought up on in my collegedays is like we had the worst
balls.
We had the machine that wouldmaybe spit at you straight.
So I was used to it and I lovedit.
But yeah, it is a miserable wayto try to learn how to block.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So I don't know how many guys in the big leagues
we'll have to go back and lookat this We'll get our.
Leonard Lee is our director,producer and our statistician.
He goes back and he looks atall this stuff.
It's all the work.
He never stops, he never stops.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
He doesn't stop today .
Speaker 1 (06:53):
No, he doesn't stop Non-stop, but he'll tell us how
many, if any.
Over the years I Played ninepositions, but you have to
figure the vast majority.
The last position they playedwas pitcher.
Pitcher, yeah, but with Donnieit was June 29, 2011.
The Mets taking on the Tigersin Detroit.
Mets win the game 16-9.
(07:15):
You come on with two outs inthe ninth inning and you pitched
to Scott Harrison.
How did you find out that youwere going to be pitching?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
I warmed up the entire eighth inning and I was
down there, Leland or Lamont,who told you?
Well, so in the eighth inning,Leland told me Leland had Tom
Brookens.
Tell me to go down and getloose.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So I'm down in the cage.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
I'm getting loose to come in, which I would have had
to fill the end of the eighthand the ninth.
But we got out of the eighth,so get out of the eighth.
We hit in the bottom of theeighth and I came up and I was
just up in the dugout for thebottom of the eighth.
I stayed there and I'm standingthere watching the top of the
(07:59):
ninth and Leland comes down.
He posts up right next to me,he goes.
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Just how are you doing.
What are you doing, just howare?
Speaker 3 (08:05):
you doing?
What are you doing?
I was like watching the gameand he goes don't you think you
should go get loose?
And I was like, well, I said Ithrew a lot last inning and I
was going to wait and see ifsomebody got on base and then go
down and get loose.
He goes.
Have you been watching thiseffing game?
And I was like, yeah, I said Isaid I have, he goes, somebody's
gonna get on base.
You better go get loose, sothere you go I ran down into the
(08:32):
, into the tunnel, and lamonthollered down.
He said, hey, he goes.
Uh, last last hitter, if thisguy gets on, you're in.
And sure enough, he hit adouble to right center and I
came up, I so I'm coming fromthe dugout.
Leland looks at me and goes,hey, give me some time and don't
give the guy a high five comingoff the mound.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
What great advice.
It's so great, so good, so good.
But I saw a video you threwlike 88-89 to Harrison 86.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Okay, it looked like an 88 to2.
I think the gun was fired itwas a light gun, brownie.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Still, I mean 86 is a position player.
Did you see how I got him out?
No, I didn't.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
You got your first hitter out.
I did it was a breaking ball.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
It was a breaking ball.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Hey.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Victor Martinez fires down the two and he's like, oh
yeah, but there's High fiveafterward.
Well, thank goodness thebreaking ball didn't break.
It was a backup, it was abackup.
Because if it would have brokeand actually broke, you would
have crushed it.
But it kind of backed up andgot off the barrel a little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
But I saw the fly ball, then you sprinted off the
mound.
Once you got the dugout, it wasokay.
So that's June 29, 2011.
And then, a handful of dayslater, July 2nd of that year,
against the Giants at Comericain Detroit, the Tigers lose this
game 15-3.
Fourth inning, Victor Martinezgets hurt A shoulder injury.
(09:55):
I guess you come on to catch.
I came on to catch.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
In the fourth I had to cover six innings.
First time, first time, stop,yeah.
So what happened is we had anhour and a half rain delay at
the start of the game.
We played two innings, hadanother hour and a half rain
delay and in the top of thethird inning, victor Martinez
took a foul ball.
That pad on the shoulder.
(10:19):
It got underneath it or aroundit and drilled him in the
shoulder.
We were down 10 zip and sothree hours worth of rain delays
.
It was already 10, 30, 11o'clock at night.
Yeah, he didn't want to put avela in because we had a day
game the next day so he's likeall right, get your gear, you're
going in.
What are you doing?
Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
you should be getting ready to catch, so so you go in
there.
What's more nerve-wracking?
Could you put on your gear?
Or?
Or catching for the first time,oh, catching way more.
Yeah, you're.
I think the pitcher is ryanperry ryan perry.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yeah, you end up catching three guys harry lester
, oliveris jeez and david percywow, there's no one knee down
approach.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
oh no, no, not at no, not at all.
He's up.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Well, you know what's funny?
I don't know.
I've never gone back and reallywatched it in depth.
I'm going to go watch it, butgo watch it and watch my left
knee, because the next morning Iwoke up and when I got out of
bed to go to the bathroom Icould not move my left knee and
I think I was going one kneebefore there was one knee.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I think he didn't want anything to do with you.
I love it.
There we go.
He started it.
Larry Vanover is the home plateumpire.
Does he say anything to?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
you.
I think he was more scared thanI was.
I'm not kidding, I bet I betyeah, First time a guy gets on
second base, obviously no pitch.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
No pitch, calm yet yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Right, so we're putting down the signs.
Ryan Perry's on the mound therewas 97 filthy stuff.
You're a nervous wreck rightnow.
Nervous wreck Guy's on secondbase.
I fire it down.
We're going.
Second sign I get through it.
I set up.
I'm like, oh crap, what did Iput down?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
I couldn't remember what the second sign was.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
So I'm like hey ended up outside the dirt, he called
time and ran.
It wasn't just like normal no.
I'm not here.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I'm not here.
So the experience what was itlike then?
When all was said and done, itwas the most fun that I've had.
How do you think you did?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
I mean, I did not do well.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Did the game end and you were alive.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
The game ended, I was alive, I was walking the next
day, I only gave up five runs.
I told Victor.
I said you gave up 10 and three.
I only gave up five, I onlygave up grinds.
We lost 15 to three but like itwas the most fun I had because
you're as a catcher In it,you're watching swings, you're
trying to do it, you're tryingto, and I told the pitcher I'm
(12:39):
like, listen, I don't know topitch, throw what you want to
throw, because I don't know theyonly shook like four or five
times.
That's awesome the whole timeand like in it I caught a pop-up
yeah, yeah, was thatnerve-wracking?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
oh, it's different.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
It comes back and you're like wait a minute, wait
a minute, yeah, yeah, it wascrazy how much appreciation,
just for that short amount oftime, do you get for that
position then, just havingplayed it in the big leagues?
A ton really, yes, even thoughyou only I don't know how they
do it.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Alex avila that year and I would have to go back and
look, maybe leonard could tellus played 130 some 140 games he
played almost every day andjustin verlander was phenomenal.
I mean, there he had a seasonfor the ages.
You know MVP yeah he did.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
That's right JA to center field.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
That's right, but Alex Avila played every day.
Verlander was MVP, cy Young,everything, and it was arguably
a toss-up in the clubhouse onwho the MVP of the team was,
because Alex played every singleday, hit 19 home runs, hit two
80s, like just the way that hedid it.
Yes, verlander was invaluableand great, but Alex was as much
(13:51):
of a.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
With no emotion the whole time.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
No, emotion Zero Dude .
What a guy yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Played with the Dominican.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
One of those guys started that game Verlander
Scherzer, I think.
By the way, which when you wentand caught, when you went and
got caught.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Oh really, I don't even remember.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, you ended up catching Ryan.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Perry.
What a duo in Detroit, right.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
So you're talking about the appreciation you had
then for that position, andthat's the case too with you,
donnie, because you played allnine positions.
But you really were a superutility guy.
You played all the infieldpositions and now now you become
a coach in the major leagues.
So that is invaluable that youtruly can teach all these
(14:30):
different positions to theseplayers.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
You're like a Swiss army knife for the as a coach
you know, and I think that thethe biggest thing and for you
would know, like the mindset ofthe work and how you go about,
how you prepare every day, howyou compete, how you show up and
we've we talked about Trioloand the other podcasts like just
(14:52):
the way these guys prepare, theway they work, the way they
compete.
Yeah, we can talk abouttechnicalities, we can talk
about getting better and stilldeveloping at the big league
level, but how you go about it,how you compete, how you prepare
, is so important.
And trying to really dive in onthat with these guys, because
the intricate details of howyou're going to do it,
everybody's going to do itdifferent.
(15:12):
Everybody's going to catchdifferent.
Everybody's going to, you know,have a different way to go
about playing third base.
You know, triolo and CabrionHayes I mean there's not a
better tandem in the big leaguesthan I mean Cabrian Hayes is
probably the best defensivethird baseman.
Jared Triolo is, you know,right there with him and to have
those two guys, but they don'tplay it the exact same way.
(15:33):
You know, and understanding howthese guys move, how they think
, how they go about it andtrying to help them any way you
can and every position.
I don't know how qualified I amto teach catchers.
I will not be trying to do that.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Well, but we talked earlier about Triolo getting
this gold glove and how goodthat feels, and you've talked
about it graciously that hecertainly deserves it, the work
he put in.
But coaching is so much a partof it People don't believe it
anymore, but maybe more so thanever.
There's more coaching in thebig leagues than there was 40
(16:12):
years ago.
It seems that there's playersare being coached up at the big
league level like never before.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Yeah, and you know what?
I think the guys are getting tothe big leagues a lot faster, a
lot younger in that developmentcurve.
There's still a lot ofdevelopment interesting.
Would be interested to hearyour take forward on it of, like
you know, when you get to thebig leagues from a physical
development standpoint you stillhave that.
But when you get to the bigleagues and you add the lights
and you add the media and youadd the fans and you add mlb
(16:40):
network and espn and highlightsand low lights and you add MLB
Network and ESPN and highlightsand lowlights and the bloopers
and everything that comes aroundwith being in the big leagues,
there's a lot more to deal within the big leagues than just
physical development.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, I mean you also think about the off-the-field
things that are kind of requiredof you, your family and friends
that are coming out of thewoodworks.
That kind of came out ofnowhere.
So there's a lot to be saidabout that.
Go back to what you were sayingabout playing all these
positions and the mindset.
How did you pick and choose onwhat to work on?
Because I mean, there's times,yes, you're probably falling
(17:16):
into where for a month, you'replaying second base most often,
but then all of a sudden you'replaying third.
You're playing right, you mayjump out in center.
What?
All of a sudden you're playingthird.
You're playing right, you mayjump out in center.
What's the balance?
Yeah, right, how do you, how doyou keep that up?
Because a ball in center fieldis completely different.
I played left and right some.
It's completely different andif you don't see one for three,
four or five weeks, yeah, it's ajoke.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
well, you know what for me it was is.
Bp was not just a time to gothrough the motions and feel
good.
That was my work.
Earlier, I referenced takingground balls at third.
I had to take ground balls atthird base every single day to
feel prepared in the infield,and then I would just rotate
left, center, right, left,center, right, just go and
(17:57):
sometimes I would get a feel formaybe where I would play.
So I would go there, but a lotof times just trying to figure
out where do I need to go tofeel comfortable, to feel no
script of where you were goingto play.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
What were your go-tos on that given day?
Third, your identity.
And then what about theoutfield?
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Left and right Center Always felt comfortable.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, it was more true.
Yeah, it's more true.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Perfect when it comes to your coaching philosophy.
We talked about your minorleague playing days and some of
the managers that you playedwith.
Jim Leland stands out, ofcourse.
He's the longest in terms ofwho managed you, but I assume,
donnie, that you take from allkinds of coaches and managers
(18:45):
over your career, correct, nodoubt?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
You learned from a bunch of them.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
And some of the guys that manage you at the minor
league level.
I'm looking like this all-starfor veteran baseball fans.
You'll know the names PhilNevin, larry Parrish, bill
Plummer, trent Jewett of course,with the Pirates Duffy Dyer,
former Pirates catcher RickSweet, phil Riggin.
Gary Green coached you in theminors with the Tigers.
(19:12):
He's now, of course, aPittsburgher.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Greeny's the best.
So Greeny, poor Greeny.
My oldest brother-in-law, wasdrafted by the Tigers in 2000.
He had Gary Green.
Gary Green managed him in 2000.
Then I was drafted in 01.
He managed me in 01.
02, he got moved up to Lakelandand had Matt again in 02.
Then I made it to Lakeland.
He had me in 03.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
And then he had Neil in 05.
, he came over with the Pirates,so, gary.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Green has managed me and Neil and my oldest
brother-in-law, Matt you wonderwhy he's got gray white hair.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
That's crazy.
We jacked him up by the way,speaking of that, it was a
winning streak that cost youyour hair, right, it was
Five-game winning streak.
What was that?
What?
Speaker 3 (19:57):
went into that.
I bet the staff that if we wonfive games in a row and it was
in 2022, that I would shave myhead and the middle part was
going anyway.
So we didn't win five in a rowin 22.
So going into 23, it turnedinto more of a lot of people
(20:18):
signed up for stuff, but we wonfive games in a row in April of
23, and I haven't gone back.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
It looks good it does look good yeah, what makes Jim
Leland a Hall of Fame manager?
Jim.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Leland cares.
He cares about people, he caresabout his players and it was
evident in the way that heshowed that.
You know, and I'm sure you guyshave seen it, caring is getting
on you sometimes, you know, andwhen that it's, you know,
everybody in Pittsburgh has seenthe one with him and Barry
Bonds and he got on Barry.
(20:50):
But it wasn't because he didn'tlike Barry, he got on him
because he cared about him andbut there were times that he
would just cry.
I'll never forget 2011.
We got beat by the TexasRangers and he came in and just
tears flowing about how proud hewas of was of us, how much we
gave him.
We gave him everything we had.
I'm so proud of you guys, youknow, just proud of you guys.
You know, just crying his eyesout, like, but that was the way
(21:12):
that he showed it the way hecommunicated, the way he cared.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
He was so sincere and vulnerable.
I think that's so huge thatplayers appreciate that
vulnerability that Lelanddoesn't suggest he's an expert,
knows everything.
He's vulnerable and and heopens up and and uh, the wall
breaks down.
I think people appreciate thattoo.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
They did, players, did you know?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
and to be able to see that you can identify with that
it is and we're human.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
You know Whether you're a player, coach, you know
broadcaster, we're human.
And yes, like we talked earlierabout, you know the fans and
the disappointment of this yearand not winning.
We feel it too and to be ableto express that and let the fans
know that and it's part of yes,we're disappointed every single
night that we don't win a game.
(21:59):
And how are we going to workand continue to get better to
eventually win?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
here in Pittsburgh, donnie, the story goes that it
was Jim Leland who actuallytalked to Shelton about bringing
you onto this staff.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
How did you end up?
Oh, you don't know that, Idon't know.
Oh, wow, wow, he just shows upand works.
Yeah, that's right, I don'tknow.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
And you show up and work the season compared to
off-season and pre-season orspring training, those kind of
almost three phases of abaseball life.
What's that like for you?
What's the daily grind in theseason?
What's the off season like interms of being able to kind of
exhale, spend time with thefamily, and then the grind of
(22:42):
getting it back into it andsetting that schedule for spring
training and all the work thatgoes into it yeah the uh.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
So we start in spring .
As a bench coach, springtraining is toughest time of the
year for me.
It's because you're a fieldcoordinator.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yes, you do, everything, you do everything.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
It's wild.
You're there at the latest I'mthere is probably 4.30.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
You're at the ballpark at 4.30 am 4.30 am.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
That's the only time that I can get by myself to
compose my thoughts and geteverything up on the white board
for what we're trying to do.
You know the schedule's alreadyset for that day you're
planning.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
You're always at least two days ahead and then
there's an atomic nuke thatdrops on him at about, you know,
eight o'clock.
Hey, so, and so can't throw.
Today.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
This is happening here, and it's like no game no,
he just is happening here andit's like, ah, no game, no BT,
he just does it in stride.
He's like yeah, yeah, get someguns.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah spring training is crazy.
I mean I'm there 4 to 4.30 andprobably leaving at 6.30, 7
o'clock.
It's sleep, go to the ballpark,sleep like there's no, no time,
and I love it's.
It's great getting ready forthe season, getting the guys
prepared, um, trying to makesure that you're touching all
(23:56):
the bases, so to speak, ofmaking sure that guys are ready
for the season.
Get into the season.
From spring training thingsslow down a little bit, but it's
still still every single day.
You know like you guys know howit is like.
There's no very little breaks.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Even an off day is very little where you're
traveling or you know what's therelationship like with Derek
Shelton Great.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Great yeah, we have a good relationship.
Communicate.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Feedback, good feedback, back and forth, and so
on.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I see him at a clubhouse often.
I don't go in Shelton's office,I don't bother him often, but
they're always chit-chat alwayskind of planning and maybe three
, four days ahead.
You see it all the time it'skind of remarkable.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
What's it like realizing that your playing days
are over Because you spent, Ithink, the last two years, if
I'm not mistaken, with theMarlins.
Yeah, did you get hurt afteronly a couple games?
Speaker 3 (24:48):
2015,.
I got hurt and then I ended uphaving Tommy John.
Oh wow.
And so that was the beginningof the end.
Came back in 2016, got back upto the big leagues for a little
bit, but most of the time in AAAit was good.
I knew I was done.
You did yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I knew, is that frightening.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I was not scared at all how did you know you were
done?
We've asked this question acouple times.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
To people yes, I didn't have it.
What's it?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
to you.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I don't know, you just knew it.
But you knew it, you didn'twake up and want to go to the
ballpark.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
That drive of.
Like you know, for me tocompete at the big league level,
I had to run through a wall.
I had to do everything as wellas I could because I wasn't the
most talented guy.
I could just tell that it wastrending down.
The bat started to feel like atelephone pole.
You know you're getting older,the mindset shifted.
(25:43):
I knew and you know what wascool about it.
I didn't have any regrets.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
There were no what-ifs, no regrets.
That's a great point.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
There were no what-ifs of what if.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I no regrets, no regrets, no regrets.
Well, you know your last game,the final game in the big
leagues, july 27, 2016,.
You go three for five, drive intwo and an 11-1 win over the
Phillies.
Two triples Jeez, I mean,that's a heck of a way to go.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Stop it Two triples.
Jeez, I mean, that's a heck ofa way to go out.
Stop it Two triples.
Who's running?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I was yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
I thought you were getting old.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Well, you know what?
They probably knew that I wasgoing down.
They were probably scared todeath as I was running.
I was going to pull a hammy orsomething going around.
Like you said, you leave it allout there.
Leave it all out there and tohave that game, and you know
(26:37):
what is really crazy about that.
The last thing that JoseFernandez said to me and Jose
Fernandez passed awayunfortunately in the boating
accident.
But the last thing he said to mewhen he was leaving the
clubhouse that day is I'm sorry,bro, it shouldn't be you About
getting sent down.
That means a lot coming fromguys like him From him, but then
, when everything happened, theonly thing that I can think of
(26:57):
is it shouldn't be you Like.
Why did he?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
die.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
You know like you talk about a guy that was at the
top of baseball, that was goingto be the face of baseball.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
You ever see anybody that electric oh no, and that
charismatic?
Just personality, charismaticface of baseball you ever see
anybody that electric, oh no,and that character, personality
charismatic charisma.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I mean you could put the mlb face.
Yes with him.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
He was gonna heartbeat yeah you know and and
just so tragic of of whathappened, because talent and you
know just the way that hecarried himself as a, as an
opponent.
I'm sure he could tick you offbecause of the way that he was,
but as a teammate all he wantedto do was win.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah.
You know He'll go to the bunkerwith anybody like that.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
It's so wild to have pitchers over the years that you
can actually talk to as abroadcaster reporter, whoever it
might be on the day they start.
And he didn't care.
He was like Jose Lima Didn'tcare, he sought out people.
He didn't care, he was likeJose Lima Didn't care, he sought
out people.
Let's go, let's talk.
You know the old.
It's pretty standard that youdon't talk to the starting
pitcher that day.
You're not supposed to anyway,but they actually would.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Well, it's somewhere to put your energy, Like for
guys like him?
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, that's true.
He's so geeked out, right?
Yeah, needed that.
Yeah, you go back to the minorsand finish up in the marlin
system, right yep?
And then, at the end of thatseason, now your baseball career
is over, how did you get intoscouting, was it right?
The very next year?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
it was the next year.
Yeah and uh, I had no idea whatI wanted to do.
No idea whatsoever and you knowwhen you get to the end.
I had no regrets about playing.
I knew that I wanted to dosomething in baseball, but I had
no idea what, and I called afew people Al Avila was one who
was with Detroit.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
A general manager.
In Detroit and he asked me,he's like well, what do you want
to do?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I said Al, I have no idea how about that.
And I said, well, I was like,hey, what about one of those
special assistant jobs?
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah, yeah, give me one of those.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
In Detroit.
Those special assistants areJim Leland, alan Trammell, kirk
Gibson.
You know like iconic baseballguys.
I said I'm not looking for atitle, like I just want to learn
.
I want to learn the other sideof the game what it is.
So he had Scott Bream is thepro scouting director over there
and Dave Littlefield, former GMof the Pirates, was running the
(29:14):
minor leagues.
So, man, it was awesome.
They put together a job thatwas half pro scouting, half
player development, that I couldgo on to both sides and learn
that side of the game.
And a funny story when DaveLittlefield called to talk to me
about the position andeverything and I was like Dave,
are you sure you want to do this?
And he's like yeah, it's goingto be awesome.
(29:35):
Why?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I said well, I already got you fired once.
Don't want to do it again.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
That's great, oh, that's good.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Dave's doing some scouting for Korean baseball Now
by the way, dave Littlefield,good, good guy.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
How many years in scouting, then, and player
development.
So I did one year of that roleand then the following year I
was a major league scout forDetroit that I had five
organizations and that's wherePittsburgh was one of them that
I got to see some of the guysthat I ended up coaching later.
I got to scout before I coached.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Now you're scouting Donnie and are you thinking to
yourself this just isn't for me,two years of it.
I've got to get back in uniformon that field.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
What was that process like?
First, scouting-wise, you werekind of in that era of
transition.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Analytics is really picking up Good question.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
How is that balanced?
Because you're learning it allon the field, off the field,
then you go into straight majorleague scouting.
What was that day like?
Great question and the reportstoo, so the reports suck.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
When you're sitting there you're trying to write the
reports, you talk to any scout.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
They'll say this has been going on forever.
They can't stand them.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
The reports are awful Because that was a job that I
almost the twins called and Idon't know why the twins.
It was really strange and I,Okay, well then, I got some
paperwork.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
I'm like, oh, Not for me, oh it's tough man when
you're sitting there in front ofthe computer and, like I know,
when you see a player you knowwhat you think.
But then to actually put itdown in report format and
outline everything and try to beconsistent and all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
They would have thought I was drinking.
Oh man, it was crazy.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
I can't imagine drinking too much coffee.
Yeah, it's wild, isn't it?
But you know what?
I'm really thankful for itbecause it gave me a different
perspective on the game intrying to truly evaluate talent
from a zero bar of like okay,who's good and who's not.
And I think that you mentionedthe analytics.
I really believe that inbaseball we need scouts and we
(31:28):
need analytics, because it's ablend.
It's the best way to try tofigure out.
We're never going to know forsure who that player is, but if
we rely just on one or the other, we could miss something.
So if we have both and we canget a scout that can get
information to try to figure outwho this player is, we're going
to see the numbers on what theanalytics are.
(31:50):
And analytics, I think, for meas a player, when they first
came in, I don't know how youfelt for it, but I don't know if
intimidated was the right word,but I didn't trust them.
Like, what are they trying todo?
They're trying to make me looklike I'm bad, but as I've gotten
into coaching, the numbers arethere to try to figure out who's
good and who's not, from ahistorical perspective of being
(32:11):
a true zero.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
You know like I think the pa did a bad job with it at
first like an association.
Yeah, I hate to throw one ofthe bus, but they, they kind of
made us push back a little bitlike don't throw in with the rap
sodo, don't like, and I thinkit was because they thought they
were going to use it against us, you know arbitration,
everything else sure, but at thesame time, if you've read the
art of war, we should understandthat to the extent we can use
(32:36):
it against them.
And I don't think that startedhappening until 1819, a little
bit further on.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
But yeah, to your point it should be a benefit for
everybody if you use itproperly yeah, you know and like
to, so to be able to scout andget a seat higher up, watch guys
compete, how they play off, offthe field, looking down at it.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
right, they say that the game gets easier the farther
away you get from the field.
Is that true?
It slows down, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Well, I'll tell you what.
So I wrote at my office, athome.
I wrote don't ever forget dotdot dot.
Because to me, I never want toforget how hard it is to play at
this level, to play baseball inthe minor leagues, but then you
get to the big leagues and youhad everything in like, I don't
want to forget how hard it isfor what these guys are trying
(33:19):
to do every single night playingthis game.
It's, it's the hardest thing inthe world.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I still try to hit some and do some stuff to make
sure I remember, like you know,what I mean.
Like if I'm gonna tell somebodysomething about their swing or
anything else, I'm going to gotry it and be like I don't even
understand what I'm trying tosay.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
So I can kind of get how they feel.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Donnie, were you a good scout.
Was I a good scout, were you agood scout yourself.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
As a scout You'd have to ask my boss on that.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
I'll call Littlefield and see what he says.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yeah, you could ask Dave.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
You really can't self-assess whether you were
good, especially now.
I would think that now, havingdone it for two years now down
the road, some of the guys youscouted you're seeing you can
remember.
You know I was wrong on thatguy, I did pretty good.
Okay, that's good to knowInteresting.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
You've got to remember with his career he was
looking at outliers most guyswouldn't look at True.
I talk to scouts all the timeover at PNC they're always
trying to just pick.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
I love them.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
And that's what most scouts do.
This dude's sitting thereanalyzing the game, watching it
differently.
You can tell the guys that aredifferent, and he would have
been one of them.
Oh, that was almost a don't.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
Well, yeah, I would say I did pretty good.
I mean I missed on some guys,but I was pretty close on a lot
of guys.
I mean you're never going to beperfect, but for only doing it
for a couple years I'd say I waspretty good.
I mean I wouldn't say I was agreat scout.
You know you're talking aboutguys like John Mercurio, bruce
Tanner, mike Russell was a bigmentor for me, scott Bream was
(34:48):
my boss.
Like those guys have seen somuch and done so much scouting.
Like I was definitely not ontheir level but I feel like I
did okay.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Well, you again.
A greater appreciation, however, for scouts now that you didn't
have before, correct, no doubt.
So now, when you hear fromscouts within the organization,
do you think you're listeningcloser to them than you would
have had not had that experience, I would think so.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
You know we've got some great guys in our pro
scouting department that have alot of experience and you know
they've done tremendous.
I love talking to them at ourmeetings.
They'd have a lot of experience.
They've done tremendous.
I love talking to them at ourmeetings.
Do you know McNally at all, notwell, not well, I know of him.
Hottie Rod, andrew Lorraine,they were all in.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just talking to them about it.
It's fun because for many yearsin a former life I would really
hang out in the press room withthe scouts, would go out on
occasion and watch players withscouts and watch that life the
part-time scouts, by the way,not even the pro scouts, the
bird dogs and so I just wonderthe evolution of the game?
(36:03):
Yes, those statistics, theanalytics so important.
We hear that all the time it'sstriking the balance.
I wonder sometimes whether thatbalance is being struck.
Sometimes I wonder if, slowlybut surely, they're pushing
those scouts off to the side.
I don't know, I wonder, I worry.
I hope that's not the case.
I worry too Because I justthink they're so valuable
(36:25):
because and you know it, donniethere's so many things when you
watch a baseball game that thereis no way you can measure what
we just saw.
There's just no way.
There's no way you know what.
That runner at first basetaking that bigger lead, who's a
threat to steal, what he doesto that mindset of that pitcher.
There's just no way to knowthat.
There's just no way to knowthat.
There's no way to know does thecatcher call something
(36:46):
different because of that?
That's just one minute, smallarea, but that happens all the
time during the course of abaseball game.
You're right, and you justwonder.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
And that wins you one-run games.
Well, yeah, those little thingswin you one-run games 100%
You're right.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
So you go from scouting for two years and now
you wind up as a coach for theHouston Astros.
How'd that happen?
Speaker 3 (37:07):
so when I was with the Diamondbacks in 08, aj Hinch
was the director of playerdevelopment and AJ and my boss
with Detroit, scott Bream, arereally good friends, so I don't
know exactly what transpiredthere, but AJ called the one day
and, uh, they called the Tigersand asked for permission to
(37:27):
interview me.
Aj called, I went down,interviewed for the job and
ended up.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Did you have your, did you have a feeler out there,
like, did people know that youmaybe wanted to get on the field
?
Scott?
Speaker 3 (37:38):
did.
Scott knew that.
Eventually I wanted to get backon the field because scouting
is so tough.
You know we're competitors.
You know we came up playing thegame.
You get that win, loss.
At the end of the day.
As a scout, there's no win orloss.
You know it's really hard.
You're by yourself all the time.
There's no camaraderie likewhat these guys do.
They're on the road all thetime filing it's them and their
(37:59):
computer you know, and writingreports can be a lonely life I'm
Speaker 2 (38:02):
sure you know brought brought life back to me this
year having a teammate, kind ofa battery because I did miss
that, because there's a lot oftimes where, like you know,
these hosts have their ownroutine.
Me and rob king, if he's there,like yeah, he's, he's in there
as my teammate, but you know alihayley played with different
people like potash doesn't watchthe game with me yeah, you know
these people, so I'm in thereby myself, I have a room with
(38:23):
all the cameras and I'm justlike you do miss that.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Yeah, you miss that.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
And there's times where you get a call and you're
like, yeah, I'm thinking aboutit, but I was wondering if you
were putting feelers out thereor whatnot.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Yeah, no, I didn't.
My boss at Detroit knew that.
Eventually, I think I wanted toget back on the field, but it's
not.
Yeah, you don't.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah, it just happens .
It just happens.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
First base coach for the Astros in 19, right Good
team.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Great team.
Okay, team it was two yearsafter the World Series so we
went to the World Series in 19.
17 is when they won it.
What's that mean?
They won it, though we're notgoing to talk about that.
I wasn't there, so I don't knowmuch about cans.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
What do you know?
Speaker 3 (39:02):
about trash cans.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
As we're recording this podcast, the president is
picking his cabinet, thepresident-elect, so we'd go in
front of Congress.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
What did you know, Mr Kelly, about the trash can I
will say this what did you know?
I will say this there's no wayif I'm hitting, I'm trusting a
banging of a trash.
Can I'm?
Speaker 3 (39:20):
with you, brother.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, so I mean nothing.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
I don't understand for the life of me.
If everybody could hear it, whydoesn't the pitcher decide that
won't happen anymore?
Like he tells the catcher, youtell the batter the next time.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
We would have thrown it at their head.
It's right in your back.
That's exactly what happened,bizarre to me.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Everybody else knew it, but the pitcher had to know
it and once period.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Yeah, so 19 was a good year.
There was none of that going on, I can tell you.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Like I was not aware of it, yeah, um you know that of
what happened in 17 and therewas none of that going on in 19,
and what a great team, butanother, yeah, I mean, holy what
a great team.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Yeah, I mean, it was up there the teams that I was
fortunate to be on in detroitwere phenomenal, and the team in
houston, when you're runningverlander, cole and Cranky out
there as a starting rotationwith.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yikes Unbelievable With.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
Bregman Correa, altuve, gurriel Brantley,
springer, josh Reddick, AlvarezRobinson, torino.
I mean, it was unreal.
Wow, you get that taste.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Winning again this time as a coach, then you become
a bench coach.
And winning again this time asa coach, then you become a bench
coach An opportunity tointerview for a big league
manager's job.
Is that something Sillyquestion, but I'll ask it anyway
.
Something you strive to dosomeday.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Yeah, I would love to manage someday, very content
and happy where I'm at, beinghere at home with Pittsburgh and
continuing to get better.
I think that someday down theroad I would love to have that
opportunity Do you think you'dbe a good manager?
I think that we all well like,yeah, I would love to do it.
You know you learning a lotright now on thing, good things,
(40:56):
bad things, things that I'vescrewed up in conversations and,
you know, just trying to getbetter every single day and if
that opportunity presents downthe road, we'd love that
challenge, love it.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
What do you think the ?
We had a debate a couple monthsago.
No, not me and you.
Well, you and I and somebodyelse was.
I don't know who it was.
Might've been Jason Mackey, Iforget who it was, probably not.
On a Hold my Cutter podcastabout identity.
What's the personality of ateam?
Speaker 2 (41:23):
And I'm big into it my argument is.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
it's absurd.
You know what the personalityof the team it's winning, I mean
so that's an identity.
I've heard, yeah, okay, that'sfine If that's the identity.
But you know, I've heard thisdebate.
Donnie and Michael and I havetalked about this over the years
too.
Oh, I've heard people say, oh,they've got a great clubhouse.
You know what's a greatclubhouse, a winning clubhouse.
I don't want a great clubhousewhen you're losing.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
I want people miserable.
I wonder what your thoughts areabout that.
That's what standards in mymind.
That's why we argue a littlebit.
The losing side, I get themiserable, but that's what the
standard of the identity.
If you have expectations here,you're not going to be happy
letting them fall down.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Let's just say a losing team, any team, any sport
in baseball lose 100 games.
Football.
Don't sniff the playoffs, ohboy.
But we had a great clubhouse, agreat locker room.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Oh, that's the worst time to say it.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
What did he do?
What good is that?
That's not good.
I've often thought about this.
As far as, like, what comesfirst, chemistry and culture,
right or winning and I thinkthey both can breed each other.
I don't think that therethere's one way or that.
It's kind of like talking aboutscouting and analytics.
Yeah, I think you need, youneed both and you need things to
to mesh and gel and guys toshow up every day on, like.
(42:42):
I look back at our time indetroit and we talked earlier in
the other podcast about 2011with the Pirates, 2012 with the
Pirates.
That led to 13, 14, 15.
I look back at our time inDetroit when we signed Victor
Martinez.
There were some things thatwent on.
Music was one of them thatstarted.
It was that time in Detroitwhen we started playing music in
(43:02):
the clubhouse, and it was thatthat time in detroit when we
started playing music in theclubhouse and it was a starting
pitcher and all this stuff waswhen the players took control of
the clubhouse say it again ohthat's it it's when the players
took control.
Jim leland was a phenomenalmanager.
He's consistent, he cared abouteverybody.
But at the end of the day, Ireally believe that on bad teams
(43:27):
, nobody leads.
On good teams, coaches lead Ongreat teams.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
The players lead, that's well said.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Because it goes back to leadership.
The whole identity ofleadership is being a servant
leader and creating leadersaround you.
Yes, you know, hurdle triedsomething in 13.
I don't think it really worked.
Worked, but he had a wolf packwhere the catchers had a wolf
pack.
Russell led that.
Well, the county startingpitcher about the council.
It was a count we called it thewolf pack.
Well, when that stopped and thewolf pack came together in the
(43:55):
clubhouse, we didn't we didn'tlose much, you know, because
they didn't need hurdle.
And then, I think, hurdlerealized that he stepped back.
And that's what great leadersdo to your point.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
And then let the players go.
Ultimately, it's the player'steam and, as a servant leader,
we're there to try to shepherdthat and help with that culture,
help with accountability.
But when you have a great team,the players are holding each
other accountable.
The players, they set thestandard of what we're trying to
(44:24):
do and how they go about it.
And when you're a teammate, andyou can, you know that, dude, I
love you, I respect you, theway you play.
When I can get on you in thatway that you're not playing the
game the right way, the way thatwe expect, yeah, sometimes it's
got to come from the coaches,but when it's most impactful is
when it comes from the players.
And when, in detroit, when theplayers took control of the
(44:46):
clubhouse and we started topolice ourselves, is when
everything really started totake off and let me add to that,
so that go back to the identitything.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
I know not a big fan of it, but it's the turnover
that's the problem.
You can't do that with aconsistent turnover now having a
staple in paul skeens and youhave guys with no crews in
center brian reynolds, you havekeller, you have guys that are
here now.
They've created a standardbecause they continue to show up
.
You're in, you're out.
In detroit, same thing 11, 12,13.
(45:14):
We had the staple of a teamgrowing together in 11.
The court kept coming back.
You know, you had pedro, youhad neil, you had kutch,
obviously, but it kept comingback and that made something of
it.
Obviously, you throw in AJ, youthrow in Lariano.
They all had their things thatthey would take control of, but
they understood what they tookcontrol of.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
Yeah, I don't disagree with that.
No, I don't.
I think that now can winninghelp.
Winning helps with that.
I do think that yes.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
But can it not create a false identity?
Winning yeah, because, like yousaid, you could be way up here
and you are winning, but youreally don't know how.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
Yeah, how are we winning?
Why are we winning?
Are we all showing up?
Speaker 2 (45:57):
I'm playing terrible, but we're winning and then it's
like you start losing.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
Why are we losing?
We are still playing terrible.
They're just playing better.
So I know for you've been in,you've sat in on some of the
advanced meetings in in the, inthe cage, and I sometimes I feel
redundant when I talk about itand I try not to beat it to.
You know, beat a dead horse,but challenging our guys to show
up every day to help the teamwin.
I would love for it to be inthe batter's box.
I would love for you to go fourfor four with three home runs,
six RBIs and.
But guess what?
It's not going to happen.
No, you know that's very rare.
(46:31):
How can you show up every day tohelp us win?
Maybe it's on the bases, maybeit's defense, maybe it's being a
teammate and picking somebodyelse up, maybe it's being a guy
on the bench that picks up a tip, and when that culture starts
to resonate and that culturestarts to that, I'm showing up.
Yes, I want to.
I want to show up and do wellfor myself, but I want to show
up and see you guys do well andI want to win the game.
(46:53):
How can I sell out to that andshow up to win and do whatever
is needed to be done to win thatbaseball game and at the end of
the year, guess whateverybody's going to have?
They're going to have goodnumbers, right, and they're
gonna keep the team together.
And that's that's what I saw indetroit.
And you know, to be able to guy, to be able to be a guy that
stuck around for six years withthe tigers that wasn't an
(47:16):
all-star type player, but to bethere as a teammate and perform
when I needed to have some goodmoments, have some bad moments
too, but be there ultimately.
And that's what I think JimLeland was really good at.
You know, when you see a guylike rock, you see a guy like
Kangel OC, you know I hope thatI was in that same category of
showing up every day to dosomething to win, regardless of
(47:39):
what my numbers look like.
That's when you can start tocreate a team and have that team
identity of showing up to win.
So I don't know if it'snecessarily.
Yes, there's culture that canlead to that.
Winning can help breed that.
I don't know which comes first,but I think at the end of the
day, you need to have guys thatshow up for each other, with
each other, to go out there andcompete and that's hard to find.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
You know what I mean.
Like you look at the Yankees tothe Dodgers in the last World
Series, you could tell whichteam was different.
Like both have absurd talent,but you could tell one was
waiting on the big explosion andone was winning with Kiki
Hernandez was winning withMichael Taylor Just different,
(48:22):
right.
That's the whole identity.
Great point the bullpen won theWorld Series.
For the Dodgers they had 98guys on the IL, right?
This isn't the year they shouldhave won.
Otani didn't do anything.
They didn't care.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
So to that point, everybody talks about the fifth
inning of was it game six, Ithink, or game five, where they
scored five runs in the fifthyeah, yeah, yeah they hadn't
scored and Mookie Betts came offwith bases loaded and one out.
Yeah, how many times is a?
Right-handed hitter call do youhit a ground?
You?
miss hit a ball to first baseand everyone talks about you
(48:57):
know Garrett not covering andRizzo you know fielding it.
Should he have gotten to firstor not?
But the thing that I saw inthat is mookie bets from the
time he hit the ball, busted hisbutt all the way through first
base.
That to me, that is identity.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
That is how he's creating a standard.
That's, above all else, if yourbest player is doing it, what
is our like?
We talked about that.
Brian rolls all year, all year.
As good as he was, even in hisworst moments, that man was
getting it down the line Everysingle day.
Speaker 3 (49:25):
So you have no excuse , no excuse.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Right, like when Kutch played for two weeks and
went off and he's limping tofirst base.
You have no excuse, no excuse,and that's what you start to see
.
That's the identity shift.
It's like we are going to winat all costs.
And if I feel like team todayin any way, whether it's like
(49:51):
stealing signs or anything else,I'm going to.
I mean, I got called up withthe Cardinals against the
Pirates, stole their signs thefirst minute I got there.
We won the game because I wasable to steal some signs and
that only happened because ofYadier Molina.
He let me lead the pitchers,meeting my first moment with the
most, in my mind, most iconiccatcher.
But that created something andonce again it was led by the.
Who Got it?
Lena, a position player, aplayer, but the guy that
(50:11):
undressed my bag and did mylocker was Wainwright.
Talk about a standard.
That was changed in theplayoffs that year.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
We get down the weeds on it, because we really break
it down.
You say that's their identity.
So Mookie Betts does that.
Well, we also, the same seriessee an outfielder no disrespect
but Teoscar Hernandez, it's afly ball, should have been easy.
Double, if not a triple, andbarely you know gets to first
base.
So it's not an identity thattakes over the whole team.
Speaker 3 (50:45):
I mean, you'd love for 25, 26 guys to do that, but
it doesn't necessarily happen.
But what is the conversationthat maybe happens between some
of those guys and Teoscar?
I understand?
The only thing I'll say isTeoscar.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Hernandez.
It wasn't his first game in thebig leagues.
He's been around a long timeand it just it happens.
I know we always say this.
There's always that addendum atthe end that we always say no
excuses, but it does happen.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
He but it, it happens it does and it's how long it
lingers.
For me, like, if he does itagain and again, that's a
problem.
If he does it once and it's aonce and off, you're like okay.
So do you think it?
Speaker 1 (51:13):
is again, we'll go down a different rabbit hole.
We won't do that.
Spend this time with with thethe don, with talking about this
.
But you would think, after allthis time, all the discussion,
all the talk, the talk aboutMookie Betts, brian Reynolds,
these guys that bust it all thetime, it's just, it's hard this
is of the fan in me, apologize,you guys have been down there.
(51:33):
It's just hard to imagine.
Although my buddy, john Wader,always goes like I'm sorry,
there just is no excuse at thebig league level, or the
professional level for thatmatter, or the professional
level for that matter, that ithappens at all, but it does it
does happen.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
And you know, I think that that's the challenge is
we're human and these guys arehuman when you can have those
conversations around, hey, it'sunacceptable.
If we're going to dog it, that'snot the way that we're going to
compete and play, that's notthe standard that we're going to
hold ourselves to.
And how do we continually?
(52:07):
It's never going to be perfect,nobody's perfect, and there's
going to be times that we dofall short.
But how quickly do we addressthat issue?
How quickly do we get back onthe horse and continue to
compete to win?
And I remember Teoscar.
What was the?
He came up with a big, that biggrand slam against San Diego.
(52:28):
Yes, that was before what you'retalking about but going back to
analytics and scouting, right,if we don't have scouts, we
can't see that type of attitudeand that type of commitment to
winning in the minor leagues,because you're never going to
see that in numbers.
So is there somebody that ourscouts are going out there to
(52:49):
see?
That see that moment that maybea player gets an opportunity to
play a year longer, maybe getsto the big leagues for a cup of
coffee because of the way theygo about it, and then they end
up having a heck of a career.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
Yeah, that's true, amen, that's true, I'm going to
have to run boys Well that'sperfect timing.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
Perfect timing.
I don't want him to leave.
I don't want to stop.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
The Don.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Don.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Don.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Kelly.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
Appreciate you guys.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Can't thank him enough, and we'll have him back,
no doubt about that for anotheredition of.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Hold my Cutter, thank you.
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