January 13, 2025 • 59 mins
Baseball fans, you're in for a treat as we chat with the legendary Ken Macha, who shares riveting tales from his storied career. Ken takes us behind the scenes, offering a firsthand look at the contrasting managerial styles of Murtaugh and Tanner and the strategies that made Tanner's teams a force on the field. With anecdotes about playing alongside icons like Parker and Stargell, as well as memorable stories about Ed Ott's wrestling move and Rennie Stennett's injury, Ken's narrative is a treasure trove of baseball lore and personal triumphs.
In an intriguing twist, our conversation branches out to uncover the fascinating influence of Japanese baseball techniques on American players. Ken opens up about his transformative experience with a Japanese secondary hitting instructor who revolutionized his approach at the plate by emphasizing strategic body mechanics. We explore the exceptional work ethic and discipline of Japanese players, illustrating the evolution of their baseball culture with nods to luminaries like Ichiro and Shohei Ohtani, highlighting their meticulous approach to both hitting and pitching.
For those who relish baseball nostalgia, Ken weaves together vivid memories of his career milestones and the vibrant atmosphere of baseball cities like Montreal. From attending the first game of the 1960 World Series to witnessing three perfect games firsthand, Ken's remarkable journey is filled with fortuitous encounters and unforgettable moments. He also shares his connection to baseball greatness as the first cousin of Hall of Famer Hal Neuhauser, sealing his story with a personal touch that underscores the resilience and unpredictability of the game we all love.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
We welcome you to another edition of Hold my
Cutter.
We're coming your way here.
Burned by Rocky Vidal, a fewblocks down the road from ESC
Park on the North Shore.
Our guest is the great Ken Maka, part two of our episode, which
we're going to get into somereally not that the first
episode wasn't interesting, butwe have some great, great
stories.
We'll continue to talk to KenMaka, greg Brown, along with the
(00:24):
Fort, michael McHenry and thisepisode brought to you by
Berkshire Hathaway Home Servicesand the great Era Katz.
Just like the business schoolNot sure there's any affiliation
, but it's spelled the same wayshe's our MVP in real estate and
a top producing realtor atBerkshire Hathaway Home Services
.
If you're thinking about buyingor selling, you need to call
(00:46):
Aera Katz.
She's been knocking it out ofthe park for over a decade.
She handles your home like shehandles her own and you're in
good company.
She's good people, believe us.
So do us a favor and check outher website, askeraakatzcom.
That's askeraakatz withBerkshire Hathaway HomeServices.
Thanks again to Aera Katz,thanks to the great Ken Maka who
has recommended and we're heavyinto our white label Rocky
(01:08):
Patel it's kind of like theall-star and Ken Maka we're
talking about some all-stars.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Also an all-star right.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
With the Chinichi Dragons, our first episode.
We talked about how he learnedjust enough Japanese and, along
the way, not only learnedJapanese but learning the game
as you went along, ken, indifferent facets, different
levels.
You talk about how you weremanaged in the big leagues by
(01:34):
guys like well, you love DickWilliams.
Of course, murtaugh and Tanner.
They were different managers,weren't they?
Murtaugh initially and thenTanner Right?
They were different managers,weren't they?
Murtaugh initially and thenTanner Right?
But way different.
I remember when Tanner came onboard it changed dramatically
from the lumber company tolumber and lightning.
He wanted the team to stealbases and you had Omar Marino
(01:55):
and other teammates of yours.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
No matter what the score was, they were stealing
bases.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
What was his thought behind that?
I love that.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Well, to be uh the aggressiveness and uh, yeah, he
wanted the other team to realizewe were coming at him, you know
, from all angles.
So that's what he did.
So, uh, we played in cincinnatione day and uh, trevara stalled
with pen run lead hall, so theybrought in jo Horner.
(02:24):
He hit him with a pitch andJohnny Bench put a bear hug on
him and Horner was a left pander.
He came in and gave him a hookto the jaw.
They saw all his bases.
They weren't real happy withthat.
But, you know you want toeverybody to be aggressive.
(02:46):
His first base coach would havea signal with you this is a
good time to take off, and stufflike that.
So I actually maybe got one ortwo stolen bases you did.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Even you, Kenny Mocko .
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Don't be laughing, Kenny speak.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Well, wait a minute.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
I talked to you earlier about that year I had in
AA yeah, I had 20 stolen bases.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
No, I did not know that.
Yeah, how many stolen bases,how many times?
Speaker 4 (03:12):
were you caught?
I think 23 home runs and 20stolen bases.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Whoopsies, I'm not knocking your speed, by the way,
but I recall you as being abigger player, a big guy.
Third base, first outfield.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
You weren't looking at the rest of the team.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
You mean, how they stole?
Speaker 4 (03:32):
No, how big those guys were.
Oh, compared to them.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
You were talking about Zisk and Parker.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Parker and Stargell and.
Candelaria and John Bibby.
Those are some big humans.
They were big guys.
Gossage was a big guy, harryForster was huge.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Holy cow Forster was big.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
You're going to go on the field to fight our team at
your own risk.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, you had trouble .
At your own risk you hadtrouble.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Yeah, at your own risk.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
It's the little guys you've got to worry about Ed Ott
.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Oh jeez At aught, oh jeez At aught.
A wrestler, See that replay ofFelix Mion.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Y'all yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
He picked up Felix Mion and and sent him to Japan
the next year Slammed him,slammed him.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
He was in.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Japan the next year.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Well, he played in Japan the next year, jeez.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
He slammed him into the ground head first, I mean
lifted him up.
He was a wrestler in Muncie.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
PA, wasn't he the late?
Yeah, I think he finishedsecond in the state.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Something like that.
He's a good guy to go attack.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Speaking of injuries, it was an injury, I guess, to
Rennie Stennett that reallyallowed you to play a bunch late
in 77, right, right.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Right.
Here again the sliding insecond base becomes a problem.
So Rennie was leading the leadand hitting 330, something like
that Slid into second base brokehis ankle.
Pretty much limited his careerafter that because he had a hard
time turning on the back foot.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
That's a tough surgery even now, let alone then
.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Right, I mean that's a little Tiger Woodges-ish.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Makes sense.
Yeah, You're talking abouteverything you need to unload
right there.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Right, yeah, so it kind of ended his career and
Tanner was a manager then and Ihad gotten called up.
I'm sitting there watching alot of games and you know, first
Dale Barrow went out there andthen Fernando Gonzalez got a
chance to play, and then hecalled me in the office one day
and said can you play third?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
and I said yeah, well I've never played third, but oh
no, I had played third in uh 76I might.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I had this running joke with my triple a manager my
very last year.
He would ask me hey, can youplay second base?
I was like funny thing isthat's my best position
everywhere.
He asked me that's my bestposition, because I was just you
know I was on the it was at theend of my career, probably and
we had an incredibly talentedteam.
Almost everybody on the dimewas a prospect.
(05:59):
So I knew where I stood.
I was going to be the backupcatcher, catch the prospects,
help the staff, the staff, andwhen I got a chance I'd play.
Didn't play a lot, probably got130 at-bats over the year.
We won the championship.
But every time he asked I'llnever forget, can you pitch?
I was like that's my worstposition.
I went up and gave a grand slamto a couple guys and Homer to
Pedro Alvarez.
Never forget it.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
I I think that's always a good learning thing for
kids.
To back up a little bit freeagency started in 76.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Okay, and I was playing third base in Charleston
that year, my first year atthird base.
I went from catching the firstbase to third base, so now I'm
only half a year playing thirdbase.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Get to center, you got the diamond.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
Right.
So it happened there's going tobe a free agent, which he
became a free agent, and hewound up leaving.
So now that spot was open, andthen, when tanner came in, they
traded everybody to get philgarner to take his spot at third
base.
So that's how that all happenedthen, when stan Stan broke his
ankle, Gardner went second andthen that was kind of a rotating
(07:07):
who was going to play.
But like I said, they triedkind of everybody there yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
When you were playing , where did you feel like if you
just were able to stick at aposition would have been your
best?
Speaker 4 (07:25):
opportunity to be an everyday guy.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
I liked the catching part okay because you have the
mind for it.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
I can hear it I like the catching part, but I wind up
going japan and playing thirdbase every day yeah, there's no
american catchers.
I tried I tried really, reallyhard so I went over and one year
I had 25 errors, something likethat, which is a lot.
And then one year I had threeerrors, which is not a lot.
(07:52):
What Three errors?
The whole year, that's not manyat all.
Did not have a bad throw.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Come on, no throwing errors, no throwing.
That's remarkable.
No throwing errors, it'susually all throwing errors I've
had 106 games.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
This is third base At third base 106 games.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Longest throw, no throwing errors.
That's incredible.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
And 106 games.
I got hurt so I missed somegames.
I pulled my groin.
But I recently had a thing downat William Mary where this
historian from Japan came andhim and I gave a little talk and
I told him about that.
He looked it up.
Three errors that'sunbelievable, no throwing errors
(08:32):
, so a little proud of that.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
You've got to take a lot of pride in that.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
You talk about fundamentals that's fundamental.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
What was the key, Ken , do you think, from going from
20-plus to three?
Was there one thing thatsomebody told you you learned?
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Just playing.
That's the way they work.
That's the way they work.
Yeah, that's the way they work.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
So I mean, the next year I had 20 again it's funny
because not Rene, but you talkedabout Rene in the previous Rene
Lachman.
Rene Lachman in the previousepisode, but Marcel came up to
me I was struggling.
He Rene Lachman in the previousepisode.
But Marcel came up to me I wasstruggling.
He goes Michael, listen, youcannot identify anything until
you get 100 of bats.
And ever since I noticed thatyou really can't Like.
(09:12):
It takes about 100 of bats orso many times out in the field,
so many chances, and then it allstarts to even out.
You'll see a trend a little bitbetter, a little bit worse, or
somewhere right where he'salways been.
I mean it really is remarkableover amount of time and
obviously with analytics you cansee a lot of things a lot
quicker.
So guys give up a lot sooner,but theoretically over a certain
amount of time.
(09:32):
You know, if I got 400 bats inthe big leagues, I was about a
20-horn hitter because of thenumbers.
That and that was the same wayin the minor leagues, but I
never got them stacked together.
So I never was a 20-home runhitter Right.
But, you start to think about itlike wow, I get this.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
I'm one of those guys that had one home run, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Yet in the minor leagues I'd hit 14.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
It took me, it felt like it took me forever and I
hit 31 one year in.
Japan, which is crazy, rightyeah, what do you?
Speaker 4 (09:59):
think so I'm going to tell you the way they study
technique.
This is in Japan, yeah in Japanthe way they study technique.
I had this hitting.
He was like the secondaryhitting instructor.
He was awesome.
He basically taught me how topull the ball.
That's so cool Because I playedin the States here and you had
(10:21):
to hit 300.
Yeah, so you were working insideout, so you learn how to hit
the ball the other way and usethe whole field.
You have barrel control and hetold me, he taught me how to
pull the ball so what it what?
Speaker 3 (10:32):
how did he go about it?
Speaker 4 (10:33):
well, um, how did he go about it?
Well, you have, because that'sreally tough, right that?
Like, because you have to buyin oh, I did, though you did,
and that's the biggest key I gotyou to buy in, then what?
So well.
The technique was you can'topen your front.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Hip up say that again you cannot open your did you
hear that you can't open yourfront hip?
Speaker 4 (10:55):
yes, that bad head has got to get out there can I
get an?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
amen can I get an amen?
And where your upper body goes,the bottom half will follow.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
This part right here.
He would take a glove and putit in there so that you're not
doing this Once you do this theknob of the bat is going to the
pitcher.
You're this way, but if theback of your hand is facing the
pitcher, this is in there, andthen the hips and hands go
together.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Yeah, okay, once that upper half goes, that bottom
half will always followAbsolutely.
We focus so much on that bottomhalf.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
He used to say in his survival English keep, keep and
keep.
I love that.
Keep that all in there.
Let the bad head get out there.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
I say the same thing to there and it's amazing, it's
almost no effort.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
You get the bat head out there and the ball jumps off
the bat.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
So it's a guy in Japan.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah, he helped me out doing that Theoretically
they're known for what backcontrol doing little things.
That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Well, anyhow, I went down to William Mary and we're
talking about he's talking to meabout the difference between
American and Japanese baseballand I talked about it and their
work ethic and all that stuffand I played a lot against a lot
of guys over there back in the80s.
Yeah, I was there 82, 3, 4, and5.
(12:21):
And I looked at them and said,hey, these guys are pretty good
players.
They just haven't taken thething.
No, taken the chance to go overthere.
That's what I'm saying To theStates.
Yeah, so then Nomo and Sasakiand Ichiro.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Well, right now they won that World Baseball Classic.
They're the best they do.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Right.
So yeah, that's what all thekids in this class students you
know.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I said who's the best player in baseball?
Now, yeah, right now.
Yeah, that's Ani, so it's yeah,their work ethic is second to
none, right, he's a little bitbigger than the normal.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
They got that other pitcher that's been here for
quite a while now.
Pittsburgh, darvish, darvish,I've caught him.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
He's nasty.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah, Big human too.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Yeah, I was facing those guys over there.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
It's a different style, did you feel like?
I mean, I remember facing themin Hawaii and this is some of
their top prospects the forkball, the split finger, the
hesitation with their deliveryRight, it was different.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Well, the other thing is this when they take their
pitchers and they work them out,they put home plate down there
and they put the lines for thebatter box, and then these
pitchers concentrate on throwingit in that tunnel, okay, or
that tunnel.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
So if you're going up there, that's called the river.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
That's the river.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Yeah, that's the river.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Who called?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
that Umpire.
Umpire told me he's like, yeah,that's the river, I'll give the
river if it's presented well, Ithought that was pretty cool.
Who?
Said that An umpire that I knowwhat umpire American umpire
American umpire.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, it's obviously in college.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
If you're going up there to hit, look for one down
the middle, it ain't coming.
Okay, and sometimes I swearthey would take batting cards
for the game and they'd have thecoaches behind the stands.
And if you're up there andyou're hitting every other ball
in the stands, I love this.
Okay, you're hitting everyother ball in the stands.
(14:30):
The term is zecotro, zecotro.
You're in best condition.
Yeah, they'll throw you in thelineup.
So you're no, I played everyday, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
So I played.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Every day.
You're in the lineup, so theother team knows your best
condition, so they're not goingto throw you straight.
They'd intentionally go 3-0 onyou.
I thought anyhow, knowing thatthe manager would give you a
take, boom, strike Okay, and nowyou're looking for a heater.
(15:04):
You ain't getting that.
They throw you a slider, that'sstrike two, and then they drop
the split finger on you and youswing on it in the third you get
yourself out.
That's some psychology rightthere.
That was so many at bats.
It would happen like that youknow?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
did they ever start to give you the green light?
No, no.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
I'll try to explain that to you.
We came down the last game ofthe season and wound up winning
that game my first year therewinning the championship.
The hitter on their team washitting .351.
A hitter on our team washitting .350.
He was our leadoff hitter.
They walked him every time theydid.
(15:52):
That guy didn't play, so thatguy won the batting title.
Wow, and they want this, ourguy.
So I said the art guy said what?
Throw your bat at it?
Throw your bat at it.
And he said no, no, that'scan't do that can't do that
Because of
Speaker 3 (16:12):
respect.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Wow, holy cow, he lost the batting title.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
He lost the batting title by one point, jeez.
Because they didn't play thatguy on the other team.
Oh my gosh, the season wasbasically over and if we win
that game, we win the pennant.
If we lose, the Giants win thepennant.
So we're not playing the Giants, we're playing the Whales.
(16:39):
The Giants are sitting in thestand, they're walking that guy
every time and I'm hitting third, so I'm up every time where the
guy's on base, you're the manand we wind up winning 9.
Where the guy's on base, wewound up winning 9-0.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
We're the Chinichi Dragons.
What was?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
your all's mascot Dragon, just a straight dragon.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Did they do the trend that they have now, where if
you had a home run, they giveyou stuff to animals?
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Oh yeah, they did all that.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Do you have any of them still?
I don't know.
They give you stuff to animals.
Oh yeah, they did all that.
No, is that right?
Do you have any of them still?
Speaker 4 (17:17):
I don't know if I have any stuffed animals.
That's what they gave you.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, you come around home, they hand you stuff to
animals.
Oh, that's funny.
Right there at home plate theyhand it to you.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
They'll give you a little something else?
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Ah, a little cheese cheese.
This a little cheese cheesethis is how they do it here.
They put it here is that right?
So that's putting up her sleeve, so that your wife doesn't know
.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
You're no honey, yeah , so you're putting it up.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Wow, oh my gosh.
But I went home, gave it to mywife, so that was 82 to 85, 82
to 85 and now.
So you come back to the states.
What's the first thing you didin 86 after I called?
Speaker 4 (17:49):
called at the end of 85.
I hit 300 my last year.
You knew you were.
I was 35 years old.
I'd get up there and they'd hita ball and I'd look we had a
dirt infield, all dirt.
I'd see the ball hit there andsay to myself probably should
(18:12):
have had that one.
I'm not moving too well.
You know age got in there.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
So I called the people in Montreal and they had
a spot for me, and that startedmy coaching career.
You mentioned your first homerun.
Right, only home run.
I didn't say that you said it,you said only.
I said first.
Do you remember the date?
Speaker 4 (18:34):
I'm going to think it was May 5th or 6th.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Well, you're right.
Oh, is that good, May 4th 1980.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
May 4th, okay, May 4th 1980.
He was still thinking about it.
I know yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Do you remember the pitcher Ed Halicki?
Ed Halicki of the Giants right.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
I'll stretch this out for you.
Well, I do.
Yeah, okay, we're playing theGiants the doubleheader on
Sunday In Montreal.
In Montreal, and on Saturdaynight Larry Parrish is our third
baseman.
He got hit with a pitch.
So Williams called me in theoffice and said get your rest,
you're in there tonight.
That was one nice thing hewould do If he were going to
play the next day.
He let me know.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Did you?
Carry that over as a manager.
Oh yeah, yeah, that is a bigdeal.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but just a
question about that because I'mcurious regarding that.
But you also said Dick Williamswould play all those guys,
understandably.
So all the time right, Justabout all the time right, just
about all healthy so it wouldmake sense to me that if a guy
that doesn't play much, you'regonna let him know.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
You're gonna play the next day, right, right, okay,
yeah, I just wanted.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
It's not as common as you think but in this day and
age it seems like they do that alot, like they tell players
ahead of time oh, sometimes theyhave a week ahead of time.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
Sometimes they have the line I know, yeah, I just
was they're more apt to tell thestarters that they're not in
there than to tell the benchplayers.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
I was just curious to know about that.
That's all right.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
He said you're in there.
So I said okay, Come to theballpark.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
John Montefiusto John the Count of Montefiusto and Ed
Halecki.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Okay, two right-handed pitchers that threw
kind of sidearm Okay.
So I went five for seven inthat doubleheader.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Off the sidearmers?
Did you hit him in the rightfield.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
No, I hit the.
Montefiusco threw me acurveball, hit it down the left
field line.
Hilleke, I hit that at the leftcenter.
He is a catcher, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I remember that he nailed that yeah, because he
remembers all this stuff, nodoubt.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
I gotta think of this left handed pitcher.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Came in and relief then you were licking your chops
.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
I'll look it up.
Oh no, this guy you'll look itup, okay you will look it up.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
I will, of course I will.
We don't like to leave ourlisteners and viewers wanting
information.
Okay.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
So anyhow, I should know that.
But anyhow, they brought him inin relief.
So the first pitch he threw meI hit straight into the first
base dugout.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
That's how hard this guy was throwing?
Was he a lefty for the Giants?
Lefty for the Giants 1980,lefty Giants 1980, yeah, he was
a relief pitcher.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
I shouldn't so anyhow .
So the next team in the nextteam coming in was Houston, oh,
Al Holland.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
No, we just talked about Al Holland, gary.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
LaBelle, gary LaBelle .
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
First pitch he threw, I hit it straight in the dugout
.
Next pitch, I hit right downthe right field line for a
triple.
So in the doubleheader I hit itstraight in the dugout.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Next pitch, I hit right down the right field line
for a triple.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
So in the doubleheader I hit a double off
of on a fews go home, run off ofa licky and a triple off of a
and.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I had a single.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
It was a circuit, but it was two games.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
And, by the way, but you hadn't played in a while,
right.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
No, I hadn't played in a while.
So, now, the next team comingin was Houston.
Oh boy, nolan Ryan, oh, I wasgoing to say JR Richards.
Oh jeez, and.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Joe.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Necro Good luck.
Oh, how was that?
Speaker 4 (22:07):
I kept hitting, you kept hitting, kept hitting those
guys too.
Yeah, I got a hit off of NolanRyan, one for two, I think, one
for one off JR Richard and thenNecro.
I might have had two hits offhim, so I had an inflated
batting average.
What a stretch.
I had an inflated battingaverage, but you know what
happened.
The next team in was the Mets,and Craig Swan was pitching for
(22:31):
the Mets and I had gotten a lotof hits off him in the minor
leagues.
I was feeling pretty good, butback to the bench.
Really, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Because they started, I think.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Larry said that's enough.
I'm glad you faced Nolan Ryanand JR Richard.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, you just saw the monsters sitting there.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Let me lunch up on these guys.
So I mean, it wasn't like that,but it kind of was.
But that five-game stretch,what a stretch.
That got me an extra year inthe big leagues.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Were those all home games, by the way, do you
remember?
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, it was home games.
Yeah, Because you guys weredrawing.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I know that when you hit that home run there were
33,500 fans at Olympic Stadium.
I mean, the team was so good.
You'll ask him.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
About winning.
No people in the stands.
You don't even know they're inthe stands.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
No, no, I understand that but that adds to the story,
the fact that this is aMontreal Expos that no longer
exists.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
We drew $2.2 million that year, which they should.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I just went to Montreal.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
It's beautiful, so that was going to leave me they
need to bring a team back.
I agree with you 1,000%.
I mean, that is a great place.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
That's what I was going to ask you, Kenny.
235,000 people at the F1.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
We went on vacation a couple, three, maybe four or
five years ago.
We went up to Lake George,stayed overnight.
Then we drove up to Montreal,drove around the city, went to
where the stadium is.
It's a vibrant city, People arewalking around.
It is awesome.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
It's awesome.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Yeah, it's an awesome city and the reason that they
left Montreal was the ownership.
So when I was a player thereand became a coach, Charles
Broffman owned the team and he'sthe Seagram's guy.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
That's where he made his money with the Seagram's and
he was tremendous.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
He'd come to spring training, put a uniform on.
He'd be standing over firstbase.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
I think that's a separator for front office.
You think you're nervous whenyou're playing in the game and
you're throwing the first.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Now you're getting ground balls.
You got to throw it over.
Don't be short on this guy.
He probably doesn't have a cupon.
Okay, I'm just saying.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Don't hit him in the wiener.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
When I was coaching.
He's still on the team and heinvited us to his house, which
was in Westmont and we went ascoaches and he was flipping the
burgers Wow, yeah, he wasawesome, he was awesome.
So, anyhow, we traded RandyJohnson and got Mark Langston
(25:13):
putting a pennant run on and itburned out and you know, he just
said that's, I've had enough.
So, uh, he sold it to a localgroup, okay, and then they sold
it to, uh, the guy that ownedthe Marlins, gloria.
Gloria, and the people inMontreal are very uh, and the
(25:34):
people in Montreal are very, notjust being part of Canada, but
French Canada.
They didn't want some art guyfrom New York coming here and
taking their money.
So, for me, major LeagueBaseball screwed that up, Okay,
because they didn't play verywell.
It was awesome there.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
It's an awesome place yeah it's an awesome place.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
They love baseball.
They did Again, as evidenced bythe number.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
They'll never go back .
You don't think they'll go back?
Speaker 4 (26:02):
No, Expansion team?
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Really.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
They're trying hard.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
They're trying hard to get a team there.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
I don't think they'll go back.
Wow, the team there.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I don't think they'll get back.
Wow, I think that's why theyhad those exhibition games
almost every year.
We were there just a coupleyears ago, it seems.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Again, they're drawn close to 50,000.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
You think about that.
You didn't get invited.
I played for Montreal and I wasdoing root sports at the time.
You'd think they'd take me outthere.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
This is why we're doing Hold my Cutter.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Listen, kids.
Common sense in baseball isdead a lot of times.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
I'm not going to disagree with you on that one.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I mean it's just a reality.
Like I'm watching the Steelersgame last night and I'm watching
an alumni game and I was likewe don't have one of those.
We don't have a Pirates alumnigame.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
They had an alumni game.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yeah, all the alumni were there last night watching
the game.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
They actually played a game.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
No, they were just there.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Oh, they were just there to watch it.
They were just there, I see, Isee.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
Well, they bring in the 79 World Series.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yeah, but I'm talking about your alumni.
You're invited.
That's what they did last night, and that was cool.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I thought that game.
They were celebrating a SuperBowl team, I believe, but they
do.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Either way, but but they called it an alumni game.
Yeah, and my mind went to howcool would it be to just bring
back old alumni?
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Well agreed.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
One day, 100 days, 30 years.
What's interesting about that?
I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Along those lines.
I mean, and I talked to ouralumni director there, I said,
look, I played with Parker in Aball.
I played with him in a ball,Okay, and then two years in the
big leagues and here againbecause I played one.
There's a certain amount ofrespect there.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Sure, you know.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
But this guy's struggling, you know, and I'd
like to at least bring him infor the 79 thing.
I would like to just go sayhello.
I missed it by one year, but Iknow all those guys, absolutely,
I would like to just go sayhello, I missed it by one year.
But I know all those guys,Absolutely.
I see those guys, but I haven'thad the opportunity to say
hello to him, Whereas I run intoCandelaria and I used to run
(28:03):
into Keeson.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
But think about what that probably meant a lot to him
Because you did come through, Imean, some of my greatest
friends and guys I still keep upto today.
I came through the minorleagues with Right.
Didn't necessarily have anymoment in the big league with
them, but I mean you go throughthe grind in the minor leagues.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Oh, you do you get so close.
There's a guy that lives up innorthern Cambria, up by
Emmonsburg.
I played in 73-74 with him inthe AA and I still play golf.
I played golf with himyesterday.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
What's his name?
Speaker 4 (28:34):
Frank Frontino.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Never made it to the big league.
Never made it to the bigleagues.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
There's more of those guys, way more than sure Of
course, it does mean a lotbecause, like, the story started
somewhere else, you know youget to see the best part of the
story as fans, but the storystarted somewhere else and it's
people like Ken that areteammates, that helped you along
in certain instances that youremember more because it
catapulted you forward.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Ken was Parker, a top five guy that you ever played
with.
Certainly when does he rank ofthe guys you played with?
Speaker 4 (29:05):
We were talking about the Hall of Famers you played
with.
Here again, I went to Salemfirst year.
You know I'd been in pro balltwo weeks.
They took me down to Bradentonand I had indoctrination.
Yeah, indoctrination.
I had one of those gloves thatwas like a circle.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I had to get rid of that.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
I'm booting everything.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
They called it the donut Sadowski threw one in the
dirt and hit me in the throat.
I couldn't talk for three days.
Anyhow, parker, here's this guy.
He's 6'5" and he's hittingvicious line drives.
He had a down stroke and theseballs are just jumping off his
bat.
You know, and I think he woundup leading the league in hitting
(29:47):
.
One night he came up we wereplaying in Kinston and he had a
line drive and it hit thispitcher in the chest.
Oh Okay, that ruined that guy'scareer Really.
The next time he pitchedagainst us, every time he threw
it he was recoiling.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Which is common.
A lot of guys don't talk aboutit, but you get hit once you
think about it for a long time.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
He hit him in the chest.
So as far as being one of thetop players, I mean other guys,
yeah, but you play with so manygreat players I played with Tony
Perez.
He's in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
We're talking about.
Off the air, off the show we'retalking about.
Is there such a thing as clutchhitting?
Speaker 4 (30:41):
Was Tony Perez one of the greatest.
That.
That's 79 going down to the end.
We're with the parts going to79.
One of the games in montrealdonnie robinson will tell you
about that.
At bat I'm telling you he had10, 12 pitches back.
He just kept following theballs off and wound up hitting
the ball in the middle for abase hit.
He was something else and weMontreal moved him on to Boston
the next year and that kind ofhurt the team a little bit in
(31:04):
1980.
We wound up getting around thefloor to play and Camardi came
in and put first base.
But Tony Perez was kind of likethe Willie Sargell.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Okay, that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah so yeah, he clutchedit the glue.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
So you, there's guys, Brian Braun that I had in
Milwaukee.
I'd much rather had PrinceFielder hit him than Ryan Braun
if the game was on the line.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Explain that.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Explain that.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yeah, I love Prince.
That's why I asked.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
He, just he grounded out, whereas Braun, the guy
who'd make a tough pitch on him,the guy who'd bring him up, he
didn't give up.
Yeah, yeah, prince you know youtalk about meetings you have
with guys.
So my first year, and we'll getit.
This is a subject that you'lllike.
My first year managing.
(31:56):
He come in the office and hesaid, skip, I need a day off.
What I said I need a day off.
What he said yeah, I need a dayoff.
I said, right, there's Yankees'new book.
I want you to look at AlexRodriguez.
Open that up.
(32:17):
159 games, 160 games, 158 games, 161 games.
I said you want to make a lotof money.
He played every game two yearsand then he signed with Texas
$12 million a year or whatever.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
He said I need a day off.
And you showed him that.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
I said you go put that book up and see how many
games Alec Rodriguez plays andhow much money he's making.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Wow Did that put any fire in him.
What's that?
Did that put any fire in him?
Speaker 4 (32:51):
Oh, he played, I mean he played hurt he had bandaged
up.
I remember coming to Pittsburghone day and he was all bandaged
up.
Of course he liked that it'sworth a fence out there in
Wrightville.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and at that time the Pirates
weren't very good at that time.
You guys had an extremely goodoffense.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
I'm telling you, our starting pitching two years was
dead, last in the PRA League.
So it's tough when you don'thave the pitching Now.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
you know, looking at next year we've got five pretty
good starters, you know, I thinkanyhow watching them Talking
about the Buccos?
Speaker 4 (33:31):
right, yeah, the Buccos.
Oh yeah, they should be able toput something together.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
They've got seven, or eight that are pretty good.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
Right so.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Hey, Kenny, you were drafted in 72, right.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Out of Pitt?
Yeah, did you.
What were your thoughts aboutthe Clemente situation when he
passed away?
Were you a Pirate fan growingup?
Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
Okay, I went to the first game of the 60 World
Series.
You did, my dad took me and mymother is kind of a devout
Catholic and she wrote I had adoctor's appointment that day.
She would never lie, so shesaid I had a doctor's
appointment.
(34:13):
So they're all day gaming.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Thanks Mom.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
So the Pirates won that first game and Mazerowski
hit a home run in that game too.
But we sat people if they knewwhat Portfield was like in right
field.
It was short, 300 feet, andthey had a big screen and they
had a double deck.
We were in the lower deck, lastrow, so any ball that was hit
(34:38):
in the air you couldn't see it,uh-huh, you know, because the
overhang was coming out there.
But yeah, my dad took me thereand consequently I was at Pitt
at the time, 71.
Mm-hmm, and you probably thinkthis is hard to believe, but I
bought my dad two tickets.
We've got two tickets and wesat in the upper deck of three
(35:01):
river stadium in 71 for thefirst night game, wow.
And I went to webster hall andbought those tickets it wasn't
sold out.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
No kidding, no, I'm telling you oh my gosh, I think
they're running like thecheapest seat I saw.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
Yeah, we were in the upper deck in center field.
Wow, and that's when Milt May,you know, got the base hit and
Keeson pitched.
And the next year.
There I am in spring trainingwith all those guys.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
And you became good friends with Keeson yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
I did.
What a small world you became,good friends with Keeson.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
No-transcript.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
I've been down with their coach a couple times.
I kind of live pretty far out.
I mean you know he's verywelcoming, come down any time,
but I don't really.
I went down maybe saw two games.
They played cal last year, yeahberkeley yeah so that's.
This is crazy here too.
But cal berkeley come in andthey had like an alumni day so I
went down for that.
(36:26):
I figured they put me in a hallof fame.
I should go for the might aswell my game.
So I went, their head coach'sname was Mike New.
He pitched for me in 2003.
No way Sat in the bullpen.
Next he was a World 5 draft forOakland.
(36:48):
He was in the bullpen and satnext to Keith.
Fulk the whole time.
Yeah, jeez, that's incredible.
So, I think he's probably stilltheir coach, I don't know.
Unbelievable.
He pitched for me in Oaklandyeah.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Well, how about Doc?
That was unbelievable.
That is unbelievable.
But another former Pitt guy.
You think about it?
In a two-year span, the Piratesget two guys.
Well, he wasn't drafted by thePirates Doc Medich, by the
Pirates Doc Medich.
Did you know Doc at all?
Speaker 4 (37:12):
I do, and I was a sophomore playing left field and
he was pitching.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
He was pitching.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
I remember going down to West Virginia and all the
Scots were behind the screenthere and he was trying to throw
400 miles an hour, was he yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:28):
See those guns come up.
Balls were flying everywhere,all over the place.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Okay, all over the place.
And then I mean he wound upgetting drafted by the Yankees
and he'd call me up in thewinter and say, come on down to
Pitt and catch me.
So I'd do that every once in awhile, but I would be in the
back of the bus with the regularguys and hit the end of the
(37:54):
front reading oh yeah, yeah, thedoc Gray's Anatomy, the front
reading, uh, oh yeah, yeah, thedoc gray's anatomy, whatever.
That is okay, so, but he's agood guy and you know they, they
uh sent out a thing to mesaying you know who you think
should be part of the hall offame.
And fifth, how can you not haveoh my gosh yeah yeah, how can
you not have?
Him jeez not any baseballplayer.
He played tight end on thefootball team.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Come on.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Didn't know that.
Wow, no kidding, and we had.
This is we had.
Our first baseman was FrankGustine Jr.
Oh my gosh, yeah, he playedbasketball football and baseball
at Pitt.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Wow, gustine Jr, gustine Jr, where's his dad, the
former?
Speaker 4 (38:35):
He had a bar right.
Oh yeah, right across thestreet from Forbes Field, frank
Gustine.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Wow, we're talking to Ken Mock on this edition of
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She is awesome, as is Ken Maka.
You mentioned where you were onthe bus.
(39:22):
In an earlier episode we weretalking to you about managers
that you've either been a benchcoach with or played for.
You mentioned Buck Rogers.
He was with the Angels, I thinkin spring training one year,
and there was a bus accident.
I don't know the details.
It wasn't spring training, itwas during the regular season
(39:42):
Regular season.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
We were in New York, we played an ex-earning game and
I think we won the game.
We were playing the Yankees andwe're going to Baltimore.
So the bus driver just we'rewatching a movie and we just
(40:03):
drove right off the road.
Did he fall asleep when?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
were you.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
Yeah, they say he fell asleep.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
So we had an extra game.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
It was an extra inning game.
It was late.
You know when were you seatedon that bus.
I was maybe in the third rowback and Buck was in the first
seat where the door is, and thatthing came and kind of crushed
his leg, so yeah, he had a hardtime after that.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
But he came back.
Yeah, yeah, it was very, veryscary, very serious, oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:39):
I got home, they gave us a day off the next day, so I
drove home to Pittsburgh and Itook out my wallet to pay for
the credit card and there wasshards of glass in my wallet.
I opened it up and it was glasswas everywhere.
You speak of experiences thatyou have with guys.
(40:59):
This bus went like this andtilted on the side like that.
It's on the side up againstsome trees and everybody was
like and Buck was saying alright, everybody, get off, don't
worry about me, blah, blah, blah, blah, this and that.
So I looked up and chuck finleywho is awesome he was standing
(41:22):
up on there on the top of thisbus pulling people out of it.
Really, wow, that was awesome.
Chuck finley, uh, the pitch forthe yeah, outstanding.
Yeah, he was great pitcher,pitcher, but what a guy.
Yeah, but he was there tryingto pull people out of there.
But I vividly remember him onthe bus.
You weren't hurt at all, Iwasn't hurt, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
What a scary moment.
Well, you were a part of somegreat teams.
We talked about that in thefirst episode with Ken Mock on
Hold my Cutter.
We did not talk about theunusual trivia question who is
the only former big leaguemanager ever to have witnessed
(42:05):
three perfect games?
Speaker 4 (42:06):
Come on In person, three perfect games In uniform.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
In uniform.
Did we find out how many thereare all the time?
He's the first and only.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Oh, what do you mean?
Speaker 3 (42:15):
How many total?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
perfect games.
No, it's all about how manypeople witnessed it in uniform
Ken.
Speaker 4 (42:20):
Maka In uniform.
Tell us about each one.
Ken Len Barker was withCleveland.
We were in Cleveland.
It was Friday night before theKentucky Derby, so it was in May
, and if you've been early Mayin Cleveland it's pretty cold 24
.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
24 all-time 24 all-time perfect games.
You were in uniform for threeof them, three.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Okay, where were you the other 21?
Jeez, louise, show off.
What the hell's wrong with meShave myself, yeah.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
But anyhow, we're in old Cleveland Stadium and it's
cavernous and there's no peoplethere and I'm sure there's a lot
of people saying they werethere.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
So I was a player with the Blue Jays and, yeah, he
threw a perfect game and thenthe next day it was a Kentucky
Derby.
Then I got to play on theSunday.
You had to be lucky.
I remember playing on theSunday.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
Did you go bet on a horse the next day?
I did not.
You should have found perfectand bet on it.
Speaker 4 (43:18):
Yeah, I wasn't thinking fast enough.
Yeah, man, but then that wasthe first one.
The second one I was a coachwith the Expos and we're playing
the Dodgers and on Friday nightMark Gardner was pitching for
us and he no, hit the Dodgersinto the 10th inning.
(43:44):
And he was still pitching intothe 10th inning and somebody got
a hit off him and we lost thatgame.
But you knew right then, theDodgers they're not swinging the
bat very well.
So the next day then a smartteam is why not into a perfect
game?
Oh my gosh.
And tommy lasorda stood up onthe top step of the dog, got and
(44:07):
started going like this try toget the fans to rattle than a
smart team is.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Oh my gosh.
That was terrible he did, hetried to get the fans to rattle
yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:18):
Wow.
And the next one was when I wasa coach with Angels.
Yeah, Angels, Kenny Rogersthrew a no-hitter in her perfect
game in Texas.
So yeah, three perfect games.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
That's incredible 24, all-time 24, all-time.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
You're like better than Ron Hasse.
Ron Hasse caught two of them.
Speaker 4 (44:45):
That's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
He caught the Lenny.
Speaker 4 (44:47):
Barker and he caught the….
Speaker 3 (44:49):
That's incredible, that is unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (44:50):
Yeah, same guy caught both.
So yeah, that's.
You said that's one of yourgoals catch a perfect game.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
Yeah, that's one of my goals.
Speaker 4 (44:58):
Do you have any eligibility left?
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Maybe at Fantasy Camp yeah we'll go into Fantasy Camp
, fantasy Camp.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Okay.
So, kenny, the three perfectgames, the players, those that
you've managed, those thatyou've played with.
You've seen some of the greats,you've been a part of some
incredible teams.
Is there any truth to the rumorthat you are a cousin of a Hall
(45:29):
of Famer?
I am A first cousin, Firstcousin, to Hal Neuhauser, hal
Neuhauser, hal Neuhauser Wow.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
The great Tiger pitcher.
Yeah, you go to Tiger Stadium.
Oh yeah, he's right next to Ty.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Cobb.
Now what's your?
Speaker 4 (45:44):
bloodline.
My dad was the youngest in thefamily and my aunt was second in
the family, and they had sixkids.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Did you know them?
Yeah, unbelievable.
Yeah, so it runs in the blood.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
So, I went up to his funeral and stuff like that.
As a matter of fact, his wifegave me a watch of his and they
gave him that watch when theyretired his number.
I have it at home somewhere anddon't wear it.
They gave him that watch.
She wrote a note saying I don'tknow what I'd do with this.
Maybe, jeez, yeah that's neverbe duplicated.
(46:26):
The number of wins he's got,like 29, 26, and 25.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Oh yeah, no chance 29 , 26, and 25.
No chance.
Well, that's because, of course, starting pitchers don't last
that long.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
What do you speak of Starting?
Speaker 1 (46:57):
what.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
Well, they threw the bullpen last night, didn't they?
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Yeah, Well that was going to be one of my questions
is that you were around thattime.
You were playing, I think, Ken,when that started to turn right
, when starting pitchers becameless relevant, or not.
Speaker 4 (47:18):
Well, here you're going to get into the starting
pitching thing.
Here we go.
I'm going back to my Montrealdays.
So we're playing San Diego,okay, playing San Diego.
So it's like the fifth inningand we need to pinch hit.
Somebody needs to pinch hit andI'm like the last guy on the
bench, so we're going to use mehere instead of saving me for
(47:42):
the ninth inning.
So William says you've got toget up there and hit for the
pitcher, it's okay.
So I look out there.
It's Gaylord Perry.
I said this guy's 43 years old.
He threw three fastballs rightby me.
Right by me, 43 years old, alittle movement on that fastball
(48:03):
.
Well, no, you know what.
Everybody talks about him doingall that stuff.
You don't believe it If youlook at it.
He had over 600 starts and hehad over 300 complete games.
Wow, and he lasted.
He's thrown his fastball rightby me at 43.
(48:23):
That's incredible, yeah, Wow.
So I mean you've got to look atit.
You can't just put everythingin the box.
You've got to look at guys'genetics.
Yeah, You've got to look at it.
You can't just put everythingin the box.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
You've got to look at guys' genetics.
Yeah, sure, I mean Nolan Ryanthrew a no-hitter.
Speaker 4 (48:37):
When he was what?
Speaker 1 (48:38):
45 years old or 46?
I mean, come on.
Speaker 4 (48:41):
Yeah, you know 46.
And I faced him in the 80s, sohe was he's getting up there he
was in his prime.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
He was blowing gas.
Speaker 4 (48:51):
Yeah, yeah he was blowing gas.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
Yeah, he was blowing some gas.
So the point about the startingpitching and people you know
old schoolers want thosestarters to go out there longer.
They don't like the fact thatthe bullpen is used early.
But the counterargument is thatthe manager and these teams are
trying to win games.
I think the best way to wingames is to go to these
(49:15):
hard-throwing relievers,especially after the starter
sees the lineup a couple oftimes.
What do you say to that?
Speaker 4 (49:23):
Well, I can go back to what Buck Rogers kind of
taught me.
He was grooming me to do what Idid.
Buck Rogers kind of taught mehe was grooming me to do what I
did and he always emphasizedthat everybody should have three
pitchers, at least somethingsoft.
Okay, we talked a little bitearlier about Ramon Hernandez.
(49:46):
I could tell him hey, go outand tell the guy to use his
changeup, get some early action,get some ground balls get them
out ahead.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Just so we understand that this is a catcher.
You're the manager and you weretelling Ramon Hernandez you're
a catcher?
Speaker 4 (50:00):
Yeah, but the pitcher's got to have that
equipment.
Yeah, I understand.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
But just so we're on the same page, because this is
so interesting that here's themanager of the team talking to
the catcher about doing this.
Speaker 4 (50:12):
Yeah, the pitch count's getting a little high.
We need a little early action.
So you get strike one, throwhim a changeup or a first pitch
changeup, but anyhow, that'swhat Buck Rogers said.
So he said that you know, sothat you can go through the
lineup three times and the guy'snot just sitting on fastball
hard and slider hard, okay.
(50:34):
Then all of a sudden he's goingto be subtracting, okay, and
get him off that fastball andnow you're going to get some jam
shots with the fastball, you'regoing to get some ground balls
so that you've got a.
You know, look at Skeets, he'sgot that.
You know he can go the distanceokay.
Now Keller I don't know if he'sgot something soft right now
(50:55):
where he can do it and the otheryoung kid Jones, he's a hard
everything, so the equipmentthat he has he should be the
closer.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
He's got that stuff.
Speaker 4 (51:08):
yeah, he should be the closer because he can go
whatever.
They just use the closer.
One inning now.
But back in the day Gossagecame in.
He threw three innings, Threeinnings.
Story about Gossage Only hereone year.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
That's like Hayter on San Diego former starter, and
when he came up he was closinggames with three innings yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
So then, I don't know what he did this past year, but
I remember he was not happyabout the fact he was pitching
more than an inning two yearsago yeah, and that that that
probably comes from an agent ortrying to protect him, whatever
but yeah, I'm with you, it's allpart of it.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
Yeah, it's all part of it gossage is here.
Speaker 4 (51:45):
We're playing the dodgers.
So the dodgers back in 77, ronsay, bill rus, russell, davey
Lopes, steve Garvey, dusty Baker, rick Monday.
That night Steve Yeager I thinkwas catching, I'm not sure.
(52:05):
Anyhow, they brought in GossagePitch, brought him in the
seventh inning.
Hire a spring in Gossage,brought in Gossage seventh
inning, struck out eight guys.
Only one guy hit the ball andit was a foul pop-up.
What so nobody put a ball inplay, nobody put the ball in
play.
It could have been Eddie Fainterin that thing, there didn't
(52:27):
need to be anybody in the field.
Struck out eight guys Mostawesome display I've ever seen
and struck out eight guys mostawesome display I've ever seen
and that wasn't the charlestoncharlie.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
No one against.
Yeah, it's funny because, uh,during the covid year, I and a
few others did a little exerciseof drafting the greatest to our
team.
We were gms and we went througha draft and we tried to create
the greatest pirates team ever.
Speaker 4 (52:53):
I know you drafted me first.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
Well, I didn't.
It was on the top of your mind.
No, no, no.
Speaker 4 (52:58):
You looked at that picture in your attic.
No, no, no, I want this guyright here you signed to Lou
Slott.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
right, I would not lie to you, okay.
Speaker 3 (53:07):
Who was your first pick.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
I don't remember Whoever was first.
I'm sure drafted Hannes Wagner,then somebody drafted Starr Joe
Clemente.
I mean I think there were fiveof us, so I've got one of those
guys.
But the point is, being older,knowing about 77 automatically.
And somebody else draftedTeague, of course, or Elroy, but
for me Goose Gossage, maybe tothis day, ken, I don't know that
(53:36):
I've seen a more dominantcloser and, as you said, he can
pitch three innings too, by theway, I mean my goodness Right,
he was ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (53:41):
Well, he was a starter with the White Sox
Tanner made him a closer.
And I'm going to say this andI'm not outlying because I'm
warming these guys up.
Terry Forster threw just ashard.
Speaker 3 (53:54):
Did he?
Speaker 4 (53:55):
really Maybe harder.
Wow, really.
Speaker 3 (53:57):
Yeah, it hits you different, doesn't it?
Speaker 4 (53:59):
It was heavy.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
Yeah, that heavy fastball is different yeah it
was a heavy fastball.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yeah, think about that.
They had the lefty Forster andthe righty Gossage.
Speaker 4 (54:17):
Well, the bullpen was Forster Gossage, grant Jackson
oh Teak.
And Odell Jones my gosh, whocould throw our two right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (54:21):
that was the bullpen.
Only five guys in the bullpens,five guys in the bullpen, five
guys in the bullpen, wow yeah soI meant the starters the
starters are getting out there.
Speaker 4 (54:27):
so you've got five guys in the bullpen, your
starters are gonna have have tolearn how to pitch to get to the
seventh inning, right, right.
So if you've got seven guys inthe bullpen or eight, whatever
they got now.
Speaker 3 (54:42):
Yeah, but there's something to be said about the
eye test, that gut feeling.
Like you can tell if a guy hasgood stuff that day.
You can tell when he'sstruggling fighting through it.
You get him 3-5.
Right, but like it seems likeit's just maybe a habit, I'm
going to go grab him at thatsixth inning mark, because here
comes that third time through.
It doesn't matter how good theyare.
Right, it's crazy to me.
Speaker 4 (55:03):
Right, well, just a funny story.
I had Esabon Uiza in Oakland mylast year, so he went out there
first pitch.
He threw 82.
I said a pitching cut, that's achangeup.
He said that's all.
He's got Something's wrong withhim.
82?
(55:23):
I said, don't worry, we'll getthree innings out of him Because
he's below hitting speed.
Okay, so you could see theseguys come up there and hit a
ground ball and they'd touchfirst and be walking in there
Like what's going on?
Speaker 2 (55:37):
You could see them.
Speaker 4 (55:39):
This guy's got nothing today.
So we got him out of thereafter the third inning, but he
pitched three innings.
Was he hurt?
He was hurt, yeah, but he wentout there.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
You've got to love the fact that he went out there.
Speaker 4 (55:48):
yeah, that was a big guy.
That was a big guy, yeah.
Speaker 3 (55:52):
It's like a parachute comes behind the ball.
You think it's going to be somuch harder and it's not.
Speaker 4 (55:58):
We got three innings out.
I'm over happy.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
So that's part of the journey, you know if we didn't
know any better, we would havethought that Ken Maka did some
TV work in the past, right, ohyeah, I did.
Speaker 3 (56:12):
How'd you get into that?
Speaker 4 (56:14):
Well, I got fired in Oakland and Messon called me up
and said can you come do somework here?
So my wife answered the phoneand she said boy, you're really
going to be interested in this.
So they flew me up because I'min the minor league system with
(56:36):
the Red Sox, and so I saidthey'd fly me up there.
I'd do one week a month.
So I'd do that whole week andgo home and they had four guys
Eckersley and Jim Rice, oh wow.
And a couple Hall of Finers,and then a guy named Lou Merloni
(56:56):
oh yeah, okay, he was a littlein-tour.
Speaker 2 (56:59):
Yeah, he played for me in the minor leagues.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Oh be darned, yeah, did you ever, you and Eckersley,
were you ever on together?
Oh yeah, Would you?
Ever talk about other teams?
And would Eckersley ever talkabout a hodgepodge of?
Speaker 4 (57:10):
nothingness.
He liked to be there whenOakland was there.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
Oh, yeah, so when.
Speaker 4 (57:15):
I was there and Oakland was there he wanted to
be there.
Because he was an Oakland guytoo.
He had nothing good to sayabout.
Speaker 2 (57:22):
Billy Beam.
Speaker 4 (57:23):
Trust me, he didn't have anything to say about it,
but he just if he saw it the wayit was, it came out of his
mouth.
Speaker 3 (57:33):
Very transparent.
Speaker 4 (57:35):
There was no sugarcoating on any of the words
yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:39):
So it's been great to have Ken Maka, who of course
has done some local stuff, ofcourse on TV as well, and he's a
local legend he's a yinzer.
Would you mind coming back?
Speaker 4 (57:48):
I'm a legend oh, you are, come on To me.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
I've got your picture in the attic.
Speaker 3 (57:52):
All right, come on I told you that You're a legend to
me, with the mice and stuff.
Speaker 1 (57:56):
Oh yeah, I mean I think I do, Orkin will take care
of it.
Will you come back againsometime?
Speaker 4 (58:02):
I'm okay with doing that I don't know if I talked
about everything.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
You covered everything.
No, no, I want to dig into whatmakes a great coach.
Yeah, we'll get into that.
Who are the best coaches you'vebeen?
Speaker 1 (58:15):
around, especially Ken, when I called you and you
said hold my cutter.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
I would love to be on hold my cutter.
There you go.
Are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (58:22):
The best baseball cigar podcast around.
Speaker 4 (58:25):
I was holding Buck Jackson's cutter.
That's right and that's thepoint of the show Exactly.
Speaker 1 (58:32):
Hold my cutter.
And again, our thanks to EricKatz.
Ask Eric, she knows Eric Katzat Berkshire Hathaway Home
Services.
Remember, ask Eric because sheknows.
Ask for Eric Katz withBerkshire Hathaway Home Services
for all your real estate needs.
Askerikatzcom, tell her theFort NGB sent you Curious what
your home is worth.
(58:52):
If you don't at least ask EricKatz, you will regret it and
you'll regret not continuing towhat Like and follow us right,
absolutely.
Speaker 3 (59:03):
All platforms.
You can find us YouTube likesubscribe ask questions.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
Check out the first episode of Kenny Bacchus.
Hold my Cutter and make sureyou're looking out for the next
one as well.
Thanks for joining us.
We welcome you to another edition of Hold my
Cutter.
We're coming your way here.
Burned by Rocky Vidal, a fewblocks down the road from ESC
Park on the North Shore.
Our guest is the great Ken Maka, part two of our episode, which
we're going to get into somereally not that the first
episode wasn't interesting, butwe have some great, great
stories.
We'll continue to talk to KenMaka, greg Brown, along with the
(00:24):
Fort, michael McHenry and thisepisode brought to you by
Berkshire Hathaway Home Servicesand the great Era Katz.
Just like the business schoolNot sure there's any affiliation
, but it's spelled the same wayshe's our MVP in real estate and
a top producing realtor atBerkshire Hathaway Home Services
.
If you're thinking about buyingor selling, you need to call
(00:46):
Aera Katz.
She's been knocking it out ofthe park for over a decade.
She handles your home like shehandles her own and you're in
good company.
She's good people, believe us.
So do us a favor and check outher website, askeraakatzcom.
That's askeraakatz withBerkshire Hathaway HomeServices.
Thanks again to Aera Katz,thanks to the great Ken Maka who
has recommended and we're heavyinto our white label Rocky
(01:08):
Patel it's kind of like theall-star and Ken Maka we're
talking about some all-stars.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Also an all-star right.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
With the Chinichi Dragons, our first episode.
We talked about how he learnedjust enough Japanese and, along
the way, not only learnedJapanese but learning the game
as you went along, ken, indifferent facets, different
levels.
You talk about how you weremanaged in the big leagues by
(01:34):
guys like well, you love DickWilliams.
Of course, murtaugh and Tanner.
They were different managers,weren't they?
Murtaugh initially and thenTanner Right?
They were different managers,weren't they?
Murtaugh initially and thenTanner Right?
But way different.
I remember when Tanner came onboard it changed dramatically
from the lumber company tolumber and lightning.
He wanted the team to stealbases and you had Omar Marino
(01:55):
and other teammates of yours.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
No matter what the score was, they were stealing
bases.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
What was his thought behind that?
I love that.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Well, to be uh the aggressiveness and uh, yeah, he
wanted the other team to realizewe were coming at him, you know
, from all angles.
So that's what he did.
So, uh, we played in cincinnatione day and uh, trevara stalled
with pen run lead hall, so theybrought in jo Horner.
(02:24):
He hit him with a pitch andJohnny Bench put a bear hug on
him and Horner was a left pander.
He came in and gave him a hookto the jaw.
They saw all his bases.
They weren't real happy withthat.
But, you know you want toeverybody to be aggressive.
(02:46):
His first base coach would havea signal with you this is a
good time to take off, and stufflike that.
So I actually maybe got one ortwo stolen bases you did.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Even you, Kenny Mocko .
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Don't be laughing, Kenny speak.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Well, wait a minute.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
I talked to you earlier about that year I had in
AA yeah, I had 20 stolen bases.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
No, I did not know that.
Yeah, how many stolen bases,how many times?
Speaker 4 (03:12):
were you caught?
I think 23 home runs and 20stolen bases.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Whoopsies, I'm not knocking your speed, by the way,
but I recall you as being abigger player, a big guy.
Third base, first outfield.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
You weren't looking at the rest of the team.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
You mean, how they stole?
Speaker 4 (03:32):
No, how big those guys were.
Oh, compared to them.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
You were talking about Zisk and Parker.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Parker and Stargell and.
Candelaria and John Bibby.
Those are some big humans.
They were big guys.
Gossage was a big guy, harryForster was huge.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Holy cow Forster was big.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
You're going to go on the field to fight our team at
your own risk.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, you had trouble .
At your own risk you hadtrouble.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Yeah, at your own risk.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
It's the little guys you've got to worry about Ed Ott
.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Oh jeez At aught, oh jeez At aught.
A wrestler, See that replay ofFelix Mion.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Y'all yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
He picked up Felix Mion and and sent him to Japan
the next year Slammed him,slammed him.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
He was in.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Japan the next year.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Well, he played in Japan the next year, jeez.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
He slammed him into the ground head first, I mean
lifted him up.
He was a wrestler in Muncie.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
PA, wasn't he the late?
Yeah, I think he finishedsecond in the state.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Something like that.
He's a good guy to go attack.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Speaking of injuries, it was an injury, I guess, to
Rennie Stennett that reallyallowed you to play a bunch late
in 77, right, right.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Right.
Here again the sliding insecond base becomes a problem.
So Rennie was leading the leadand hitting 330, something like
that Slid into second base brokehis ankle.
Pretty much limited his careerafter that because he had a hard
time turning on the back foot.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
That's a tough surgery even now, let alone then
.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Right, I mean that's a little Tiger Woodges-ish.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Makes sense.
Yeah, You're talking abouteverything you need to unload
right there.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Right, yeah, so it kind of ended his career and
Tanner was a manager then and Ihad gotten called up.
I'm sitting there watching alot of games and you know, first
Dale Barrow went out there andthen Fernando Gonzalez got a
chance to play, and then hecalled me in the office one day
and said can you play third?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
and I said yeah, well I've never played third, but oh
no, I had played third in uh 76I might.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I had this running joke with my triple a manager my
very last year.
He would ask me hey, can youplay second base?
I was like funny thing isthat's my best position
everywhere.
He asked me that's my bestposition, because I was just you
know I was on the it was at theend of my career, probably and
we had an incredibly talentedteam.
Almost everybody on the dimewas a prospect.
(05:59):
So I knew where I stood.
I was going to be the backupcatcher, catch the prospects,
help the staff, the staff, andwhen I got a chance I'd play.
Didn't play a lot, probably got130 at-bats over the year.
We won the championship.
But every time he asked I'llnever forget, can you pitch?
I was like that's my worstposition.
I went up and gave a grand slamto a couple guys and Homer to
Pedro Alvarez.
Never forget it.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
I I think that's always a good learning thing for
kids.
To back up a little bit freeagency started in 76.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Okay, and I was playing third base in Charleston
that year, my first year atthird base.
I went from catching the firstbase to third base, so now I'm
only half a year playing thirdbase.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Get to center, you got the diamond.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
Right.
So it happened there's going tobe a free agent, which he
became a free agent, and hewound up leaving.
So now that spot was open, andthen, when tanner came in, they
traded everybody to get philgarner to take his spot at third
base.
So that's how that all happenedthen, when stan Stan broke his
ankle, Gardner went second andthen that was kind of a rotating
(07:07):
who was going to play.
But like I said, they triedkind of everybody there yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
When you were playing , where did you feel like if you
just were able to stick at aposition would have been your
best?
Speaker 4 (07:25):
opportunity to be an everyday guy.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
I liked the catching part okay because you have the
mind for it.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
I can hear it I like the catching part, but I wind up
going japan and playing thirdbase every day yeah, there's no
american catchers.
I tried I tried really, reallyhard so I went over and one year
I had 25 errors, something likethat, which is a lot.
And then one year I had threeerrors, which is not a lot.
(07:52):
What Three errors?
The whole year, that's not manyat all.
Did not have a bad throw.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Come on, no throwing errors, no throwing.
That's remarkable.
No throwing errors, it'susually all throwing errors I've
had 106 games.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
This is third base At third base 106 games.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Longest throw, no throwing errors.
That's incredible.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
And 106 games.
I got hurt so I missed somegames.
I pulled my groin.
But I recently had a thing downat William Mary where this
historian from Japan came andhim and I gave a little talk and
I told him about that.
He looked it up.
Three errors that'sunbelievable, no throwing errors
(08:32):
, so a little proud of that.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
You've got to take a lot of pride in that.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
You talk about fundamentals that's fundamental.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
What was the key, Ken , do you think, from going from
20-plus to three?
Was there one thing thatsomebody told you you learned?
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Just playing.
That's the way they work.
That's the way they work.
Yeah, that's the way they work.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
So I mean, the next year I had 20 again it's funny
because not Rene, but you talkedabout Rene in the previous Rene
Lachman.
Rene Lachman in the previousepisode, but Marcel came up to
me I was struggling.
He Rene Lachman in the previousepisode.
But Marcel came up to me I wasstruggling.
He goes Michael, listen, youcannot identify anything until
you get 100 of bats.
And ever since I noticed thatyou really can't Like.
(09:12):
It takes about 100 of bats orso many times out in the field,
so many chances, and then it allstarts to even out.
You'll see a trend a little bitbetter, a little bit worse, or
somewhere right where he'salways been.
I mean it really is remarkableover amount of time and
obviously with analytics you cansee a lot of things a lot
quicker.
So guys give up a lot sooner,but theoretically over a certain
amount of time.
(09:32):
You know, if I got 400 bats inthe big leagues, I was about a
20-horn hitter because of thenumbers.
That and that was the same wayin the minor leagues, but I
never got them stacked together.
So I never was a 20-home runhitter Right.
But, you start to think about itlike wow, I get this.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
I'm one of those guys that had one home run, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Yet in the minor leagues I'd hit 14.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
It took me, it felt like it took me forever and I
hit 31 one year in.
Japan, which is crazy, rightyeah, what do you?
Speaker 4 (09:59):
think so I'm going to tell you the way they study
technique.
This is in Japan, yeah in Japanthe way they study technique.
I had this hitting.
He was like the secondaryhitting instructor.
He was awesome.
He basically taught me how topull the ball.
That's so cool Because I playedin the States here and you had
(10:21):
to hit 300.
Yeah, so you were working insideout, so you learn how to hit
the ball the other way and usethe whole field.
You have barrel control and hetold me, he taught me how to
pull the ball so what it what?
Speaker 3 (10:32):
how did he go about it?
Speaker 4 (10:33):
well, um, how did he go about it?
Well, you have, because that'sreally tough, right that?
Like, because you have to buyin oh, I did, though you did,
and that's the biggest key I gotyou to buy in, then what?
So well.
The technique was you can'topen your front.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Hip up say that again you cannot open your did you
hear that you can't open yourfront hip?
Speaker 4 (10:55):
yes, that bad head has got to get out there can I
get an?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
amen can I get an amen?
And where your upper body goes,the bottom half will follow.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
This part right here.
He would take a glove and putit in there so that you're not
doing this Once you do this theknob of the bat is going to the
pitcher.
You're this way, but if theback of your hand is facing the
pitcher, this is in there, andthen the hips and hands go
together.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Yeah, okay, once that upper half goes, that bottom
half will always followAbsolutely.
We focus so much on that bottomhalf.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
He used to say in his survival English keep, keep and
keep.
I love that.
Keep that all in there.
Let the bad head get out there.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
I say the same thing to there and it's amazing, it's
almost no effort.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
You get the bat head out there and the ball jumps off
the bat.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
So it's a guy in Japan.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah, he helped me out doing that Theoretically
they're known for what backcontrol doing little things.
That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Well, anyhow, I went down to William Mary and we're
talking about he's talking to meabout the difference between
American and Japanese baseballand I talked about it and their
work ethic and all that stuffand I played a lot against a lot
of guys over there back in the80s.
Yeah, I was there 82, 3, 4, and5.
(12:21):
And I looked at them and said,hey, these guys are pretty good
players.
They just haven't taken thething.
No, taken the chance to go overthere.
That's what I'm saying To theStates.
Yeah, so then Nomo and Sasakiand Ichiro.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Well, right now they won that World Baseball Classic.
They're the best they do.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Right.
So yeah, that's what all thekids in this class students you
know.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I said who's the best player in baseball?
Now, yeah, right now.
Yeah, that's Ani, so it's yeah,their work ethic is second to
none, right, he's a little bitbigger than the normal.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
They got that other pitcher that's been here for
quite a while now.
Pittsburgh, darvish, darvish,I've caught him.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
He's nasty.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah, Big human too.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Yeah, I was facing those guys over there.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
It's a different style, did you feel like?
I mean, I remember facing themin Hawaii and this is some of
their top prospects the forkball, the split finger, the
hesitation with their deliveryRight, it was different.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Well, the other thing is this when they take their
pitchers and they work them out,they put home plate down there
and they put the lines for thebatter box, and then these
pitchers concentrate on throwingit in that tunnel, okay, or
that tunnel.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
So if you're going up there, that's called the river.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
That's the river.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Yeah, that's the river.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Who called?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
that Umpire.
Umpire told me he's like, yeah,that's the river, I'll give the
river if it's presented well, Ithought that was pretty cool.
Who?
Said that An umpire that I knowwhat umpire American umpire
American umpire.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, it's obviously in college.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
If you're going up there to hit, look for one down
the middle, it ain't coming.
Okay, and sometimes I swearthey would take batting cards
for the game and they'd have thecoaches behind the stands.
And if you're up there andyou're hitting every other ball
in the stands, I love this.
Okay, you're hitting everyother ball in the stands.
(14:30):
The term is zecotro, zecotro.
You're in best condition.
Yeah, they'll throw you in thelineup.
So you're no, I played everyday, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
So I played.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Every day.
You're in the lineup, so theother team knows your best
condition, so they're not goingto throw you straight.
They'd intentionally go 3-0 onyou.
I thought anyhow, knowing thatthe manager would give you a
take, boom, strike Okay, and nowyou're looking for a heater.
(15:04):
You ain't getting that.
They throw you a slider, that'sstrike two, and then they drop
the split finger on you and youswing on it in the third you get
yourself out.
That's some psychology rightthere.
That was so many at bats.
It would happen like that youknow?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
did they ever start to give you the green light?
No, no.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
I'll try to explain that to you.
We came down the last game ofthe season and wound up winning
that game my first year therewinning the championship.
The hitter on their team washitting .351.
A hitter on our team washitting .350.
He was our leadoff hitter.
They walked him every time theydid.
(15:52):
That guy didn't play, so thatguy won the batting title.
Wow, and they want this, ourguy.
So I said the art guy said what?
Throw your bat at it?
Throw your bat at it.
And he said no, no, that'scan't do that can't do that
Because of
Speaker 3 (16:12):
respect.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Wow, holy cow, he lost the batting title.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
He lost the batting title by one point, jeez.
Because they didn't play thatguy on the other team.
Oh my gosh, the season wasbasically over and if we win
that game, we win the pennant.
If we lose, the Giants win thepennant.
So we're not playing the Giants, we're playing the Whales.
(16:39):
The Giants are sitting in thestand, they're walking that guy
every time and I'm hitting third, so I'm up every time where the
guy's on base, you're the manand we wind up winning 9.
Where the guy's on base, wewound up winning 9-0.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
We're the Chinichi Dragons.
What was?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
your all's mascot Dragon, just a straight dragon.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Did they do the trend that they have now, where if
you had a home run, they giveyou stuff to animals?
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Oh yeah, they did all that.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Do you have any of them still?
I don't know.
They give you stuff to animals.
Oh yeah, they did all that.
No, is that right?
Do you have any of them still?
Speaker 4 (17:17):
I don't know if I have any stuffed animals.
That's what they gave you.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, you come around home, they hand you stuff to
animals.
Oh, that's funny.
Right there at home plate theyhand it to you.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
They'll give you a little something else?
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Ah, a little cheese cheese.
This a little cheese cheesethis is how they do it here.
They put it here is that right?
So that's putting up her sleeve, so that your wife doesn't know
.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
You're no honey, yeah , so you're putting it up.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Wow, oh my gosh.
But I went home, gave it to mywife, so that was 82 to 85, 82
to 85 and now.
So you come back to the states.
What's the first thing you didin 86 after I called?
Speaker 4 (17:49):
called at the end of 85.
I hit 300 my last year.
You knew you were.
I was 35 years old.
I'd get up there and they'd hita ball and I'd look we had a
dirt infield, all dirt.
I'd see the ball hit there andsay to myself probably should
(18:12):
have had that one.
I'm not moving too well.
You know age got in there.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
So I called the people in Montreal and they had
a spot for me, and that startedmy coaching career.
You mentioned your first homerun.
Right, only home run.
I didn't say that you said it,you said only.
I said first.
Do you remember the date?
Speaker 4 (18:34):
I'm going to think it was May 5th or 6th.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Well, you're right.
Oh, is that good, May 4th 1980.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
May 4th, okay, May 4th 1980.
He was still thinking about it.
I know yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Do you remember the pitcher Ed Halicki?
Ed Halicki of the Giants right.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
I'll stretch this out for you.
Well, I do.
Yeah, okay, we're playing theGiants the doubleheader on
Sunday In Montreal.
In Montreal, and on Saturdaynight Larry Parrish is our third
baseman.
He got hit with a pitch.
So Williams called me in theoffice and said get your rest,
you're in there tonight.
That was one nice thing hewould do If he were going to
play the next day.
He let me know.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Did you?
Carry that over as a manager.
Oh yeah, yeah, that is a bigdeal.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but just a
question about that because I'mcurious regarding that.
But you also said Dick Williamswould play all those guys,
understandably.
So all the time right, Justabout all the time right, just
about all healthy so it wouldmake sense to me that if a guy
that doesn't play much, you'regonna let him know.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
You're gonna play the next day, right, right, okay,
yeah, I just wanted.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
It's not as common as you think but in this day and
age it seems like they do that alot, like they tell players
ahead of time oh, sometimes theyhave a week ahead of time.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
Sometimes they have the line I know, yeah, I just
was they're more apt to tell thestarters that they're not in
there than to tell the benchplayers.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
I was just curious to know about that.
That's all right.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
He said you're in there.
So I said okay, Come to theballpark.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
John Montefiusto John the Count of Montefiusto and Ed
Halecki.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Okay, two right-handed pitchers that threw
kind of sidearm Okay.
So I went five for seven inthat doubleheader.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Off the sidearmers?
Did you hit him in the rightfield.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
No, I hit the.
Montefiusco threw me acurveball, hit it down the left
field line.
Hilleke, I hit that at the leftcenter.
He is a catcher, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I remember that he nailed that yeah, because he
remembers all this stuff, nodoubt.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
I gotta think of this left handed pitcher.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Came in and relief then you were licking your chops
.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
I'll look it up.
Oh no, this guy you'll look itup, okay you will look it up.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
I will, of course I will.
We don't like to leave ourlisteners and viewers wanting
information.
Okay.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
So anyhow, I should know that.
But anyhow, they brought him inin relief.
So the first pitch he threw meI hit straight into the first
base dugout.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
That's how hard this guy was throwing?
Was he a lefty for the Giants?
Lefty for the Giants 1980,lefty Giants 1980, yeah, he was
a relief pitcher.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
I shouldn't so anyhow .
So the next team in the nextteam coming in was Houston, oh,
Al Holland.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
No, we just talked about Al Holland, gary.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
LaBelle, gary LaBelle .
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
First pitch he threw, I hit it straight in the dugout
.
Next pitch, I hit right downthe right field line for a
triple.
So in the doubleheader I hit itstraight in the dugout.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Next pitch, I hit right down the right field line
for a triple.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
So in the doubleheader I hit a double off
of on a fews go home, run off ofa licky and a triple off of a
and.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I had a single.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
It was a circuit, but it was two games.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
And, by the way, but you hadn't played in a while,
right.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
No, I hadn't played in a while.
So, now, the next team comingin was Houston.
Oh boy, nolan Ryan, oh, I wasgoing to say JR Richards.
Oh jeez, and.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Joe.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Necro Good luck.
Oh, how was that?
Speaker 4 (22:07):
I kept hitting, you kept hitting, kept hitting those
guys too.
Yeah, I got a hit off of NolanRyan, one for two, I think, one
for one off JR Richard and thenNecro.
I might have had two hits offhim, so I had an inflated
batting average.
What a stretch.
I had an inflated battingaverage, but you know what
happened.
The next team in was the Mets,and Craig Swan was pitching for
(22:31):
the Mets and I had gotten a lotof hits off him in the minor
leagues.
I was feeling pretty good, butback to the bench.
Really, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Because they started, I think.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Larry said that's enough.
I'm glad you faced Nolan Ryanand JR Richard.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, you just saw the monsters sitting there.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Let me lunch up on these guys.
So I mean, it wasn't like that,but it kind of was.
But that five-game stretch,what a stretch.
That got me an extra year inthe big leagues.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Were those all home games, by the way, do you
remember?
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, it was home games.
Yeah, Because you guys weredrawing.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I know that when you hit that home run there were
33,500 fans at Olympic Stadium.
I mean, the team was so good.
You'll ask him.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
About winning.
No people in the stands.
You don't even know they're inthe stands.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
No, no, I understand that but that adds to the story,
the fact that this is aMontreal Expos that no longer
exists.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
We drew $2.2 million that year, which they should.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I just went to Montreal.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
It's beautiful, so that was going to leave me they
need to bring a team back.
I agree with you 1,000%.
I mean, that is a great place.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
That's what I was going to ask you, Kenny.
235,000 people at the F1.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
We went on vacation a couple, three, maybe four or
five years ago.
We went up to Lake George,stayed overnight.
Then we drove up to Montreal,drove around the city, went to
where the stadium is.
It's a vibrant city, People arewalking around.
It is awesome.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
It's awesome.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Yeah, it's an awesome city and the reason that they
left Montreal was the ownership.
So when I was a player thereand became a coach, Charles
Broffman owned the team and he'sthe Seagram's guy.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
That's where he made his money with the Seagram's and
he was tremendous.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
He'd come to spring training, put a uniform on.
He'd be standing over firstbase.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
I think that's a separator for front office.
You think you're nervous whenyou're playing in the game and
you're throwing the first.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Now you're getting ground balls.
You got to throw it over.
Don't be short on this guy.
He probably doesn't have a cupon.
Okay, I'm just saying.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Don't hit him in the wiener.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
When I was coaching.
He's still on the team and heinvited us to his house, which
was in Westmont and we went ascoaches and he was flipping the
burgers Wow, yeah, he wasawesome, he was awesome.
So, anyhow, we traded RandyJohnson and got Mark Langston
(25:13):
putting a pennant run on and itburned out and you know, he just
said that's, I've had enough.
So, uh, he sold it to a localgroup, okay, and then they sold
it to, uh, the guy that ownedthe Marlins, gloria.
Gloria, and the people inMontreal are very uh, and the
(25:34):
people in Montreal are very, notjust being part of Canada, but
French Canada.
They didn't want some art guyfrom New York coming here and
taking their money.
So, for me, major LeagueBaseball screwed that up, Okay,
because they didn't play verywell.
It was awesome there.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
It's an awesome place yeah it's an awesome place.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
They love baseball.
They did Again, as evidenced bythe number.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
They'll never go back .
You don't think they'll go back?
Speaker 4 (26:02):
No, Expansion team?
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Really.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
They're trying hard.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
They're trying hard to get a team there.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
I don't think they'll go back.
Wow, the team there.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I don't think they'll get back.
Wow, I think that's why theyhad those exhibition games
almost every year.
We were there just a coupleyears ago, it seems.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Again, they're drawn close to 50,000.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
You think about that.
You didn't get invited.
I played for Montreal and I wasdoing root sports at the time.
You'd think they'd take me outthere.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
This is why we're doing Hold my Cutter.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Listen, kids.
Common sense in baseball isdead a lot of times.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
I'm not going to disagree with you on that one.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I mean it's just a reality.
Like I'm watching the Steelersgame last night and I'm watching
an alumni game and I was likewe don't have one of those.
We don't have a Pirates alumnigame.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
They had an alumni game.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yeah, all the alumni were there last night watching
the game.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
They actually played a game.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
No, they were just there.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Oh, they were just there to watch it.
They were just there, I see, Isee.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
Well, they bring in the 79 World Series.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yeah, but I'm talking about your alumni.
You're invited.
That's what they did last night, and that was cool.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I thought that game.
They were celebrating a SuperBowl team, I believe, but they
do.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Either way, but but they called it an alumni game.
Yeah, and my mind went to howcool would it be to just bring
back old alumni?
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Well agreed.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
One day, 100 days, 30 years.
What's interesting about that?
I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Along those lines.
I mean, and I talked to ouralumni director there, I said,
look, I played with Parker in Aball.
I played with him in a ball,Okay, and then two years in the
big leagues and here againbecause I played one.
There's a certain amount ofrespect there.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Sure, you know.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
But this guy's struggling, you know, and I'd
like to at least bring him infor the 79 thing.
I would like to just go sayhello.
I missed it by one year, but Iknow all those guys, absolutely,
I would like to just go sayhello, I missed it by one year.
But I know all those guys,Absolutely.
I see those guys, but I haven'thad the opportunity to say
hello to him, Whereas I run intoCandelaria and I used to run
(28:03):
into Keeson.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
But think about what that probably meant a lot to him
Because you did come through, Imean, some of my greatest
friends and guys I still keep upto today.
I came through the minorleagues with Right.
Didn't necessarily have anymoment in the big league with
them, but I mean you go throughthe grind in the minor leagues.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Oh, you do you get so close.
There's a guy that lives up innorthern Cambria, up by
Emmonsburg.
I played in 73-74 with him inthe AA and I still play golf.
I played golf with himyesterday.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
What's his name?
Speaker 4 (28:34):
Frank Frontino.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Never made it to the big league.
Never made it to the bigleagues.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
There's more of those guys, way more than sure Of
course, it does mean a lotbecause, like, the story started
somewhere else, you know youget to see the best part of the
story as fans, but the storystarted somewhere else and it's
people like Ken that areteammates, that helped you along
in certain instances that youremember more because it
catapulted you forward.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Ken was Parker, a top five guy that you ever played
with.
Certainly when does he rank ofthe guys you played with?
Speaker 4 (29:05):
We were talking about the Hall of Famers you played
with.
Here again, I went to Salemfirst year.
You know I'd been in pro balltwo weeks.
They took me down to Bradentonand I had indoctrination.
Yeah, indoctrination.
I had one of those gloves thatwas like a circle.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I had to get rid of that.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
I'm booting everything.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
They called it the donut Sadowski threw one in the
dirt and hit me in the throat.
I couldn't talk for three days.
Anyhow, parker, here's this guy.
He's 6'5" and he's hittingvicious line drives.
He had a down stroke and theseballs are just jumping off his
bat.
You know, and I think he woundup leading the league in hitting
(29:47):
.
One night he came up we wereplaying in Kinston and he had a
line drive and it hit thispitcher in the chest.
Oh Okay, that ruined that guy'scareer Really.
The next time he pitchedagainst us, every time he threw
it he was recoiling.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Which is common.
A lot of guys don't talk aboutit, but you get hit once you
think about it for a long time.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
He hit him in the chest.
So as far as being one of thetop players, I mean other guys,
yeah, but you play with so manygreat players I played with Tony
Perez.
He's in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
We're talking about.
Off the air, off the show we'retalking about.
Is there such a thing as clutchhitting?
Speaker 4 (30:41):
Was Tony Perez one of the greatest.
That.
That's 79 going down to the end.
We're with the parts going to79.
One of the games in montrealdonnie robinson will tell you
about that.
At bat I'm telling you he had10, 12 pitches back.
He just kept following theballs off and wound up hitting
the ball in the middle for abase hit.
He was something else and weMontreal moved him on to Boston
the next year and that kind ofhurt the team a little bit in
(31:04):
1980.
We wound up getting around thefloor to play and Camardi came
in and put first base.
But Tony Perez was kind of likethe Willie Sargell.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Okay, that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah so yeah, he clutchedit the glue.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
So you, there's guys, Brian Braun that I had in
Milwaukee.
I'd much rather had PrinceFielder hit him than Ryan Braun
if the game was on the line.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Explain that.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Explain that.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yeah, I love Prince.
That's why I asked.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
He, just he grounded out, whereas Braun, the guy
who'd make a tough pitch on him,the guy who'd bring him up, he
didn't give up.
Yeah, yeah, prince you know youtalk about meetings you have
with guys.
So my first year, and we'll getit.
This is a subject that you'lllike.
My first year managing.
(31:56):
He come in the office and hesaid, skip, I need a day off.
What I said I need a day off.
What he said yeah, I need a dayoff.
I said, right, there's Yankees'new book.
I want you to look at AlexRodriguez.
Open that up.
(32:17):
159 games, 160 games, 158 games, 161 games.
I said you want to make a lotof money.
He played every game two yearsand then he signed with Texas
$12 million a year or whatever.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
He said I need a day off.
And you showed him that.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
I said you go put that book up and see how many
games Alec Rodriguez plays andhow much money he's making.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Wow Did that put any fire in him.
What's that?
Did that put any fire in him?
Speaker 4 (32:51):
Oh, he played, I mean he played hurt he had bandaged
up.
I remember coming to Pittsburghone day and he was all bandaged
up.
Of course he liked that it'sworth a fence out there in
Wrightville.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and at that time the Pirates
weren't very good at that time.
You guys had an extremely goodoffense.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
I'm telling you, our starting pitching two years was
dead, last in the PRA League.
So it's tough when you don'thave the pitching Now.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
you know, looking at next year we've got five pretty
good starters, you know, I thinkanyhow watching them Talking
about the Buccos?
Speaker 4 (33:31):
right, yeah, the Buccos.
Oh yeah, they should be able toput something together.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
They've got seven, or eight that are pretty good.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
Right so.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Hey, Kenny, you were drafted in 72, right.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Out of Pitt?
Yeah, did you.
What were your thoughts aboutthe Clemente situation when he
passed away?
Were you a Pirate fan growingup?
Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
Okay, I went to the first game of the 60 World
Series.
You did, my dad took me and mymother is kind of a devout
Catholic and she wrote I had adoctor's appointment that day.
She would never lie, so shesaid I had a doctor's
appointment.
(34:13):
So they're all day gaming.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Thanks Mom.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
So the Pirates won that first game and Mazerowski
hit a home run in that game too.
But we sat people if they knewwhat Portfield was like in right
field.
It was short, 300 feet, andthey had a big screen and they
had a double deck.
We were in the lower deck, lastrow, so any ball that was hit
(34:38):
in the air you couldn't see it,uh-huh, you know, because the
overhang was coming out there.
But yeah, my dad took me thereand consequently I was at Pitt
at the time, 71.
Mm-hmm, and you probably thinkthis is hard to believe, but I
bought my dad two tickets.
We've got two tickets and wesat in the upper deck of three
(35:01):
river stadium in 71 for thefirst night game, wow.
And I went to webster hall andbought those tickets it wasn't
sold out.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
No kidding, no, I'm telling you oh my gosh, I think
they're running like thecheapest seat I saw.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
Yeah, we were in the upper deck in center field.
Wow, and that's when Milt May,you know, got the base hit and
Keeson pitched.
And the next year.
There I am in spring trainingwith all those guys.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
And you became good friends with Keeson yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
I did.
What a small world you became,good friends with Keeson.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
No-transcript.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
I've been down with their coach a couple times.
I kind of live pretty far out.
I mean you know he's verywelcoming, come down any time,
but I don't really.
I went down maybe saw two games.
They played cal last year, yeahberkeley yeah so that's.
This is crazy here too.
But cal berkeley come in andthey had like an alumni day so I
went down for that.
(36:26):
I figured they put me in a hallof fame.
I should go for the might aswell my game.
So I went, their head coach'sname was Mike New.
He pitched for me in 2003.
No way Sat in the bullpen.
Next he was a World 5 draft forOakland.
(36:48):
He was in the bullpen and satnext to Keith.
Fulk the whole time.
Yeah, jeez, that's incredible.
So, I think he's probably stilltheir coach, I don't know.
Unbelievable.
He pitched for me in Oaklandyeah.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Well, how about Doc?
That was unbelievable.
That is unbelievable.
But another former Pitt guy.
You think about it?
In a two-year span, the Piratesget two guys.
Well, he wasn't drafted by thePirates Doc Medich, by the
Pirates Doc Medich.
Did you know Doc at all?
Speaker 4 (37:12):
I do, and I was a sophomore playing left field and
he was pitching.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
He was pitching.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
I remember going down to West Virginia and all the
Scots were behind the screenthere and he was trying to throw
400 miles an hour, was he yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:28):
See those guns come up.
Balls were flying everywhere,all over the place.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Okay, all over the place.
And then I mean he wound upgetting drafted by the Yankees
and he'd call me up in thewinter and say, come on down to
Pitt and catch me.
So I'd do that every once in awhile, but I would be in the
back of the bus with the regularguys and hit the end of the
(37:54):
front reading oh yeah, yeah, thedoc Gray's Anatomy, the front
reading, uh, oh yeah, yeah, thedoc gray's anatomy, whatever.
That is okay, so, but he's agood guy and you know they, they
uh sent out a thing to mesaying you know who you think
should be part of the hall offame.
And fifth, how can you not haveoh my gosh yeah yeah, how can
you not have?
Him jeez not any baseballplayer.
He played tight end on thefootball team.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Come on.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Didn't know that.
Wow, no kidding, and we had.
This is we had.
Our first baseman was FrankGustine Jr.
Oh my gosh, yeah, he playedbasketball football and baseball
at Pitt.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Wow, gustine Jr, gustine Jr, where's his dad, the
former?
Speaker 4 (38:35):
He had a bar right.
Oh yeah, right across thestreet from Forbes Field, frank
Gustine.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Wow, we're talking to Ken Mock on this edition of
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She is awesome, as is Ken Maka.
You mentioned where you were onthe bus.
(39:22):
In an earlier episode we weretalking to you about managers
that you've either been a benchcoach with or played for.
You mentioned Buck Rogers.
He was with the Angels, I thinkin spring training one year,
and there was a bus accident.
I don't know the details.
It wasn't spring training, itwas during the regular season
(39:42):
Regular season.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
We were in New York, we played an ex-earning game and
I think we won the game.
We were playing the Yankees andwe're going to Baltimore.
So the bus driver just we'rewatching a movie and we just
(40:03):
drove right off the road.
Did he fall asleep when?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
were you.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
Yeah, they say he fell asleep.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
So we had an extra game.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
It was an extra inning game.
It was late.
You know when were you seatedon that bus.
I was maybe in the third rowback and Buck was in the first
seat where the door is, and thatthing came and kind of crushed
his leg, so yeah, he had a hardtime after that.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
But he came back.
Yeah, yeah, it was very, veryscary, very serious, oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:39):
I got home, they gave us a day off the next day, so I
drove home to Pittsburgh and Itook out my wallet to pay for
the credit card and there wasshards of glass in my wallet.
I opened it up and it was glasswas everywhere.
You speak of experiences thatyou have with guys.
(40:59):
This bus went like this andtilted on the side like that.
It's on the side up againstsome trees and everybody was
like and Buck was saying alright, everybody, get off, don't
worry about me, blah, blah, blah, blah, this and that.
So I looked up and chuck finleywho is awesome he was standing
(41:22):
up on there on the top of thisbus pulling people out of it.
Really, wow, that was awesome.
Chuck finley, uh, the pitch forthe yeah, outstanding.
Yeah, he was great pitcher,pitcher, but what a guy.
Yeah, but he was there tryingto pull people out of there.
But I vividly remember him onthe bus.
You weren't hurt at all, Iwasn't hurt, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
What a scary moment.
Well, you were a part of somegreat teams.
We talked about that in thefirst episode with Ken Mock on
Hold my Cutter.
We did not talk about theunusual trivia question who is
the only former big leaguemanager ever to have witnessed
(42:05):
three perfect games?
Speaker 4 (42:06):
Come on In person, three perfect games In uniform.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
In uniform.
Did we find out how many thereare all the time?
He's the first and only.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Oh, what do you mean?
Speaker 3 (42:15):
How many total?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
perfect games.
No, it's all about how manypeople witnessed it in uniform
Ken.
Speaker 4 (42:20):
Maka In uniform.
Tell us about each one.
Ken Len Barker was withCleveland.
We were in Cleveland.
It was Friday night before theKentucky Derby, so it was in May
, and if you've been early Mayin Cleveland it's pretty cold 24
.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
24 all-time 24 all-time perfect games.
You were in uniform for threeof them, three.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Okay, where were you the other 21?
Jeez, louise, show off.
What the hell's wrong with meShave myself, yeah.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
But anyhow, we're in old Cleveland Stadium and it's
cavernous and there's no peoplethere and I'm sure there's a lot
of people saying they werethere.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
So I was a player with the Blue Jays and, yeah, he
threw a perfect game and thenthe next day it was a Kentucky
Derby.
Then I got to play on theSunday.
You had to be lucky.
I remember playing on theSunday.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
Did you go bet on a horse the next day?
I did not.
You should have found perfectand bet on it.
Speaker 4 (43:18):
Yeah, I wasn't thinking fast enough.
Yeah, man, but then that wasthe first one.
The second one I was a coachwith the Expos and we're playing
the Dodgers and on Friday nightMark Gardner was pitching for
us and he no, hit the Dodgersinto the 10th inning.
(43:44):
And he was still pitching intothe 10th inning and somebody got
a hit off him and we lost thatgame.
But you knew right then, theDodgers they're not swinging the
bat very well.
So the next day then a smartteam is why not into a perfect
game?
Oh my gosh.
And tommy lasorda stood up onthe top step of the dog, got and
(44:07):
started going like this try toget the fans to rattle than a
smart team is.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Oh my gosh.
That was terrible he did, hetried to get the fans to rattle
yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:18):
Wow.
And the next one was when I wasa coach with Angels.
Yeah, Angels, Kenny Rogersthrew a no-hitter in her perfect
game in Texas.
So yeah, three perfect games.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
That's incredible 24, all-time 24, all-time.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
You're like better than Ron Hasse.
Ron Hasse caught two of them.
Speaker 4 (44:45):
That's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
He caught the Lenny.
Speaker 4 (44:47):
Barker and he caught the….
Speaker 3 (44:49):
That's incredible, that is unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (44:50):
Yeah, same guy caught both.
So yeah, that's.
You said that's one of yourgoals catch a perfect game.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
Yeah, that's one of my goals.
Speaker 4 (44:58):
Do you have any eligibility left?
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Maybe at Fantasy Camp yeah we'll go into Fantasy Camp
, fantasy Camp.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Okay.
So, kenny, the three perfectgames, the players, those that
you've managed, those thatyou've played with.
You've seen some of the greats,you've been a part of some
incredible teams.
Is there any truth to the rumorthat you are a cousin of a Hall
(45:29):
of Famer?
I am A first cousin, Firstcousin, to Hal Neuhauser, hal
Neuhauser, hal Neuhauser Wow.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
The great Tiger pitcher.
Yeah, you go to Tiger Stadium.
Oh yeah, he's right next to Ty.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Cobb.
Now what's your?
Speaker 4 (45:44):
bloodline.
My dad was the youngest in thefamily and my aunt was second in
the family, and they had sixkids.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Did you know them?
Yeah, unbelievable.
Yeah, so it runs in the blood.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
So, I went up to his funeral and stuff like that.
As a matter of fact, his wifegave me a watch of his and they
gave him that watch when theyretired his number.
I have it at home somewhere anddon't wear it.
They gave him that watch.
She wrote a note saying I don'tknow what I'd do with this.
Maybe, jeez, yeah that's neverbe duplicated.
(46:26):
The number of wins he's got,like 29, 26, and 25.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Oh yeah, no chance 29 , 26, and 25.
No chance.
Well, that's because, of course, starting pitchers don't last
that long.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
What do you speak of Starting?
Speaker 1 (46:57):
what.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
Well, they threw the bullpen last night, didn't they?
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Yeah, Well that was going to be one of my questions
is that you were around thattime.
You were playing, I think, Ken,when that started to turn right
, when starting pitchers becameless relevant, or not.
Speaker 4 (47:18):
Well, here you're going to get into the starting
pitching thing.
Here we go.
I'm going back to my Montrealdays.
So we're playing San Diego,okay, playing San Diego.
So it's like the fifth inningand we need to pinch hit.
Somebody needs to pinch hit andI'm like the last guy on the
bench, so we're going to use mehere instead of saving me for
(47:42):
the ninth inning.
So William says you've got toget up there and hit for the
pitcher, it's okay.
So I look out there.
It's Gaylord Perry.
I said this guy's 43 years old.
He threw three fastballs rightby me.
Right by me, 43 years old, alittle movement on that fastball
(48:03):
.
Well, no, you know what.
Everybody talks about him doingall that stuff.
You don't believe it If youlook at it.
He had over 600 starts and hehad over 300 complete games.
Wow, and he lasted.
He's thrown his fastball rightby me at 43.
(48:23):
That's incredible, yeah, Wow.
So I mean you've got to look atit.
You can't just put everythingin the box.
You've got to look at guys'genetics.
Yeah, You've got to look at it.
You can't just put everythingin the box.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
You've got to look at guys' genetics.
Yeah, sure, I mean Nolan Ryanthrew a no-hitter.
Speaker 4 (48:37):
When he was what?
Speaker 1 (48:38):
45 years old or 46?
I mean, come on.
Speaker 4 (48:41):
Yeah, you know 46.
And I faced him in the 80s, sohe was he's getting up there he
was in his prime.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
He was blowing gas.
Speaker 4 (48:51):
Yeah, yeah he was blowing gas.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
Yeah, he was blowing some gas.
So the point about the startingpitching and people you know
old schoolers want thosestarters to go out there longer.
They don't like the fact thatthe bullpen is used early.
But the counterargument is thatthe manager and these teams are
trying to win games.
I think the best way to wingames is to go to these
(49:15):
hard-throwing relievers,especially after the starter
sees the lineup a couple oftimes.
What do you say to that?
Speaker 4 (49:23):
Well, I can go back to what Buck Rogers kind of
taught me.
He was grooming me to do what Idid.
Buck Rogers kind of taught mehe was grooming me to do what I
did and he always emphasizedthat everybody should have three
pitchers, at least somethingsoft.
Okay, we talked a little bitearlier about Ramon Hernandez.
(49:46):
I could tell him hey, go outand tell the guy to use his
changeup, get some early action,get some ground balls get them
out ahead.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Just so we understand that this is a catcher.
You're the manager and you weretelling Ramon Hernandez you're
a catcher?
Speaker 4 (50:00):
Yeah, but the pitcher's got to have that
equipment.
Yeah, I understand.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
But just so we're on the same page, because this is
so interesting that here's themanager of the team talking to
the catcher about doing this.
Speaker 4 (50:12):
Yeah, the pitch count's getting a little high.
We need a little early action.
So you get strike one, throwhim a changeup or a first pitch
changeup, but anyhow, that'swhat Buck Rogers said.
So he said that you know, sothat you can go through the
lineup three times and the guy'snot just sitting on fastball
hard and slider hard, okay.
(50:34):
Then all of a sudden he's goingto be subtracting, okay, and
get him off that fastball andnow you're going to get some jam
shots with the fastball, you'regoing to get some ground balls
so that you've got a.
You know, look at Skeets, he'sgot that.
You know he can go the distanceokay.
Now Keller I don't know if he'sgot something soft right now
(50:55):
where he can do it and the otheryoung kid Jones, he's a hard
everything, so the equipmentthat he has he should be the
closer.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
He's got that stuff.
Speaker 4 (51:08):
yeah, he should be the closer because he can go
whatever.
They just use the closer.
One inning now.
But back in the day Gossagecame in.
He threw three innings, Threeinnings.
Story about Gossage Only hereone year.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
That's like Hayter on San Diego former starter, and
when he came up he was closinggames with three innings yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
So then, I don't know what he did this past year, but
I remember he was not happyabout the fact he was pitching
more than an inning two yearsago yeah, and that that that
probably comes from an agent ortrying to protect him, whatever
but yeah, I'm with you, it's allpart of it.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
Yeah, it's all part of it gossage is here.
Speaker 4 (51:45):
We're playing the dodgers.
So the dodgers back in 77, ronsay, bill rus, russell, davey
Lopes, steve Garvey, dusty Baker, rick Monday.
That night Steve Yeager I thinkwas catching, I'm not sure.
(52:05):
Anyhow, they brought in GossagePitch, brought him in the
seventh inning.
Hire a spring in Gossage,brought in Gossage seventh
inning, struck out eight guys.
Only one guy hit the ball andit was a foul pop-up.
What so nobody put a ball inplay, nobody put the ball in
play.
It could have been Eddie Fainterin that thing, there didn't
(52:27):
need to be anybody in the field.
Struck out eight guys Mostawesome display I've ever seen
and struck out eight guys mostawesome display I've ever seen
and that wasn't the charlestoncharlie.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
No one against.
Yeah, it's funny because, uh,during the covid year, I and a
few others did a little exerciseof drafting the greatest to our
team.
We were gms and we went througha draft and we tried to create
the greatest pirates team ever.
Speaker 4 (52:53):
I know you drafted me first.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
Well, I didn't.
It was on the top of your mind.
No, no, no.
Speaker 4 (52:58):
You looked at that picture in your attic.
No, no, no, I want this guyright here you signed to Lou
Slott.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
right, I would not lie to you, okay.
Speaker 3 (53:07):
Who was your first pick.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
I don't remember Whoever was first.
I'm sure drafted Hannes Wagner,then somebody drafted Starr Joe
Clemente.
I mean I think there were fiveof us, so I've got one of those
guys.
But the point is, being older,knowing about 77 automatically.
And somebody else draftedTeague, of course, or Elroy, but
for me Goose Gossage, maybe tothis day, ken, I don't know that
(53:36):
I've seen a more dominantcloser and, as you said, he can
pitch three innings too, by theway, I mean my goodness Right,
he was ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (53:41):
Well, he was a starter with the White Sox
Tanner made him a closer.
And I'm going to say this andI'm not outlying because I'm
warming these guys up.
Terry Forster threw just ashard.
Speaker 3 (53:54):
Did he?
Speaker 4 (53:55):
really Maybe harder.
Wow, really.
Speaker 3 (53:57):
Yeah, it hits you different, doesn't it?
Speaker 4 (53:59):
It was heavy.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
Yeah, that heavy fastball is different yeah it
was a heavy fastball.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yeah, think about that.
They had the lefty Forster andthe righty Gossage.
Speaker 4 (54:17):
Well, the bullpen was Forster Gossage, grant Jackson
oh Teak.
And Odell Jones my gosh, whocould throw our two right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (54:21):
that was the bullpen.
Only five guys in the bullpens,five guys in the bullpen, five
guys in the bullpen, wow yeah soI meant the starters the
starters are getting out there.
Speaker 4 (54:27):
so you've got five guys in the bullpen, your
starters are gonna have have tolearn how to pitch to get to the
seventh inning, right, right.
So if you've got seven guys inthe bullpen or eight, whatever
they got now.
Speaker 3 (54:42):
Yeah, but there's something to be said about the
eye test, that gut feeling.
Like you can tell if a guy hasgood stuff that day.
You can tell when he'sstruggling fighting through it.
You get him 3-5.
Right, but like it seems likeit's just maybe a habit, I'm
going to go grab him at thatsixth inning mark, because here
comes that third time through.
It doesn't matter how good theyare.
Right, it's crazy to me.
Speaker 4 (55:03):
Right, well, just a funny story.
I had Esabon Uiza in Oakland mylast year, so he went out there
first pitch.
He threw 82.
I said a pitching cut, that's achangeup.
He said that's all.
He's got Something's wrong withhim.
82?
(55:23):
I said, don't worry, we'll getthree innings out of him Because
he's below hitting speed.
Okay, so you could see theseguys come up there and hit a
ground ball and they'd touchfirst and be walking in there
Like what's going on?
Speaker 2 (55:37):
You could see them.
Speaker 4 (55:39):
This guy's got nothing today.
So we got him out of thereafter the third inning, but he
pitched three innings.
Was he hurt?
He was hurt, yeah, but he wentout there.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
You've got to love the fact that he went out there.
Speaker 4 (55:48):
yeah, that was a big guy.
That was a big guy, yeah.
Speaker 3 (55:52):
It's like a parachute comes behind the ball.
You think it's going to be somuch harder and it's not.
Speaker 4 (55:58):
We got three innings out.
I'm over happy.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
So that's part of the journey, you know if we didn't
know any better, we would havethought that Ken Maka did some
TV work in the past, right, ohyeah, I did.
Speaker 3 (56:12):
How'd you get into that?
Speaker 4 (56:14):
Well, I got fired in Oakland and Messon called me up
and said can you come do somework here?
So my wife answered the phoneand she said boy, you're really
going to be interested in this.
So they flew me up because I'min the minor league system with
(56:36):
the Red Sox, and so I saidthey'd fly me up there.
I'd do one week a month.
So I'd do that whole week andgo home and they had four guys
Eckersley and Jim Rice, oh wow.
And a couple Hall of Finers,and then a guy named Lou Merloni
(56:56):
oh yeah, okay, he was a littlein-tour.
Speaker 2 (56:59):
Yeah, he played for me in the minor leagues.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Oh be darned, yeah, did you ever, you and Eckersley,
were you ever on together?
Oh yeah, Would you?
Ever talk about other teams?
And would Eckersley ever talkabout a hodgepodge of?
Speaker 4 (57:10):
nothingness.
He liked to be there whenOakland was there.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
Oh, yeah, so when.
Speaker 4 (57:15):
I was there and Oakland was there he wanted to
be there.
Because he was an Oakland guytoo.
He had nothing good to sayabout.
Speaker 2 (57:22):
Billy Beam.
Speaker 4 (57:23):
Trust me, he didn't have anything to say about it,
but he just if he saw it the wayit was, it came out of his
mouth.
Speaker 3 (57:33):
Very transparent.
Speaker 4 (57:35):
There was no sugarcoating on any of the words
yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:39):
So it's been great to have Ken Maka, who of course
has done some local stuff, ofcourse on TV as well, and he's a
local legend he's a yinzer.
Would you mind coming back?
Speaker 4 (57:48):
I'm a legend oh, you are, come on To me.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
I've got your picture in the attic.
Speaker 3 (57:52):
All right, come on I told you that You're a legend to
me, with the mice and stuff.
Speaker 1 (57:56):
Oh yeah, I mean I think I do, Orkin will take care
of it.
Will you come back againsometime?
Speaker 4 (58:02):
I'm okay with doing that I don't know if I talked
about everything.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
You covered everything.
No, no, I want to dig into whatmakes a great coach.
Yeah, we'll get into that.
Who are the best coaches you'vebeen?
Speaker 1 (58:15):
around, especially Ken, when I called you and you
said hold my cutter.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
I would love to be on hold my cutter.
There you go.
Are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (58:22):
The best baseball cigar podcast around.
Speaker 4 (58:25):
I was holding Buck Jackson's cutter.
That's right and that's thepoint of the show Exactly.
Speaker 1 (58:32):
Hold my cutter.
And again, our thanks to EricKatz.
Ask Eric, she knows Eric Katzat Berkshire Hathaway Home
Services.
Remember, ask Eric because sheknows.
Ask for Eric Katz withBerkshire Hathaway Home Services
for all your real estate needs.
Askerikatzcom, tell her theFort NGB sent you Curious what
your home is worth.
(58:52):
If you don't at least ask EricKatz, you will regret it and
you'll regret not continuing towhat Like and follow us right,
absolutely.
Speaker 3 (59:03):
All platforms.
You can find us YouTube likesubscribe ask questions.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
Check out the first episode of Kenny Bacchus.
Hold my Cutter and make sureyou're looking out for the next
one as well.
Thanks for joining us.
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