May 6, 2025 • 50 mins
Jonathan Mayo didn't set out to become baseball's prospect guru, but after more than two decades covering future stars before anyone knows their names, he's become the voice baseball fans trust to identify tomorrow's talent.
In this revealing conversation, Mayo takes us behind the curtain of baseball talent evaluation, sharing how his journey from newspaper journalism to MLB.com transformed into a specialized career tracking the game's brightest young prospects. From his early days walking past Frank Robinson's office where future Padres GM AJ Preller worked as an assistant, Mayo's career has given him unique access to stars before they were stars.
What truly sets Mayo apart is his approach to prospect evaluation—balancing old-school scouting with modern analytics. "I'm a reporter," Mayo explains, describing how he collects insights from scouts and executives rather than relying solely on his own observations. This methodology has allowed him to build relationships with players from high school through the major leagues, with many stars appreciating that he was "the first one who ever wrote about me."
The conversation delves into fascinating territory around player development philosophy, highlighting the dangers of organizations leaning too heavily on either analytics or traditional scouting. Mayo advocates for multi-sport athletes and appreciates teams willing to bet on raw athleticism rather than just refined skills. He shares stories of under-the-radar prospects who surprised everyone and the human element that statistics can't capture—how players handle adversity, their feel for the game, and what makes them tick.
Whether you're a die-hard baseball fan wanting to understand how future stars are identified or simply curious about the human stories behind prospect evaluation, Mayo's insights reveal why baseball development remains as much art as science—and why that's what makes the game so special.
Have you ever wondered how baseball's next superstars are discovered? Listen now to hear from the man who's made a career finding tomorrow's talent before anyone else knows their names.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We're here, just a few blocks away from PNC Park
burned by Rocky Patel, and we'vegot a very special guest.
As always, we kick off, hold myCutter with the featured smoke,
and it is the Dark Star.
Yeah, one of my favorite thingsabout the city of Pittsburgh is
that a guy that's become ayinzer he calls himself a—he
(00:22):
combines y'all and yinzer withthese y'alls are is, uh, michael
mckenry who uh, we'll toast tohim we will and we'll look
forward to having him back andon his show one of these days.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
By the way, I hope so , because didn't he?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
encourage you to come on hold my cutter he's been
talking to me about this.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
For how long has the show been?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
going on a good year.
Plus yes from the show number75 already from the get-go.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So the fact that it took 75 shows to have me on.
Michael shame on you, butanyway.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Shame on you.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
And now I finally come and he's not here.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
But it's all good and it made for a better program.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I got to use his mug.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, his mug.
Thank you, Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Thank you.
I don't know to teach.
Both my parents were teachers.
I'm like I don't really, Idon't think I want to do that.
It's like those who can't do,right you?
know, or or broadcast as thecase may be and so I always knew
I wanted to do something aroundsports, whether it was talking
about it or writing about it,and writing was the direction I
kind of headed in.
Yeah, in high school we had anewspaper and like, and I knew
(01:22):
that I wanted to do somethingalong those lines.
I had a, an amazing journalismteacher in high school, uh, who
kind of was very encouraging anduh, then when I went to college
, we had a really good dailynewspaper and I was a sports
editor there.
Um, there've been some reallygood sports writers who've come
out of there.
Kenny Rosenthal also went toPenn.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
How about that?
How about going to Penn?
Yeah, doggone it.
What's up with that?
I got lucky.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
You know, a lot of the road from northern New
Jersey to the University ofPennsylvania was very well worn
A lot of New Jersey kids there.
But I really majored in thenewspaper there.
I was a sports editor there.
But even then I would have gonewherever you know, wherever the
jobs were.
Uh, you know, even back thenjournalism jobs weren't always
(02:09):
so easy to come by and uh, Ijust got lucky that my first
jobs were, you know, fornewspapers and things like that
and I bounced around a bunch andkept going from there, Then
your your first break inbaseball came.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
how?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, I was working at the New York Post but I was
like a low-level, I was an agateclerk, and agate is the word
for small type.
So back when people remembernewspapers and there would be
the pages with the box scoresand the statistics, I would
paginate those, you know, Iwould line it up and, uh, I knew
(02:47):
it was time for me to make achange, when I was having dreams
about oh, I hope this box scorefits here and it's sort of like
Tetris.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
And uh, but I got to get out and write a decent
amount.
So my first break came whenmajor league baseball was
looking to hire its first everfull-time staff writer back in
1999.
They had never had one, therewas a staff of three.
They used a lot of freelancersand writers around the country
and I had actually interviewedfor a job with Major League
(03:14):
Baseball's publishing departmentthe year prior but hadn't
gotten that job.
But I guess made enough of animpression that the director of
publishing handed my resume downand in April of 1999, I started
and I've been there ever since.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
What was that?
Like Jonathan, the first day onthe job there.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, it was crazy because when we first started it
was in the commissioner'soffice, so I would go up to the
whatever floor it was.
My memory says it was the 31stfloor.
I may be making that up, butwho?
Speaker 1 (03:42):
knows, it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
And every day I would walk by the czar of disciplines
office.
Back then that was FrankRobinson.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
So I would walk by hall of fame or Frank Robinson's
office every single day andhe'd be reading his newspaper
and he'd put his newspaper downand give me a little wave.
And I'm like come on and Iremember the first time I did it
I did like a triple take, youknow kind of like wait is it
Frank Robinson?
But, craig, it's even crazierthan that, because in those
(04:15):
early days a lot of talent cameout of those offices.
His like executive assistantlike the guy who answered his
phone is now the general managerfor the San Diego Padres, aj
Preller.
He would come over and want totalk to me about like the third
string catcher and double A here.
I'm like you're not going to behere very long.
But Jeff Breidich worked inthose offices too.
(04:36):
He ended up being the generalmanager of the Rockies.
It's kind of nuts, but Iremember.
Yeah, aj Preller was FrankRobinson's assistant when I
first started there.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So you go by his office and you realize okay, now
I am indeed in the big leagues,obviously, walking by Frank
Robinson every day.
Do you remember the first thingthat you wrote and how cool it
was to see it published?
Or one of your first.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I don't remember the first thing.
I remember the first time Itraveled, uh, for this job.
This was the year that, uh, thebaltimore rails went to cuba.
Now, I didn't get to go to cuba, I started like two weeks too
late, but the first thing I everdid is I went to baltimore when
the cuban team came tobaltimore.
So I don't remember what Iwrote, but I remember like, wow,
(05:25):
this is the first time I'mtraveling for baseball.
Um, so, yeah, that was thefirst time and it's it's been so
much fun Cause I've gone toevery all-star game since 1999,
except for one, uh, the year mydaughter was born.
I couldn't make it to that onebecause I wanted to.
You know, stay married Goodidea.
(05:48):
But you know, so I went to thatall-star game in 99, and that
was Boston, and I remember thatthat was Ted Williams on the
field and everyone was notscripted circled around Ted
Williams because you know he wasclosing in the end of his life
and they knew there wasn't muchtime.
I think Tony Gwynn was theimpetus for that.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
To be at.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Fenway Park for the All-Star game, and that that was
my first All-Star game, alsothe first Futures game.
I wasn't covering Prospectsonly then, but it was still the
first Futures game ever.
Alfonso Soriano hit two homersin that game.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
No way.
So how did it morph into theprospects?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
You know, I was kind of just a national major league
writer for a few years and Ialways liked writing about
prospects when I could.
I started going to the ArizonaFall League, probably by 2000.
We started doing regularcoverage there and the draft has
been big on the website evenfrom way back then.
So I always liked doing thosestories.
(06:50):
And you know, it was a coupleof years after we moved here.
I moved here to Pittsburgh inthe fall of 01.
And after 2002, before 2003, Iwas like you know, we had we had
hired a whole bunch more staff.
We had some really goodnational writers.
We had we had hired a wholebunch more staff, we had some
really good national writers andwe had this little page for
prospects.
We didn't have someonededicated to doing it.
(07:11):
I was, like you know, we couldprobably find enough to write
about.
I had no idea what you knowPandora's box I was opening
there, but so it was.
2003 was the first time Ishifted to just doing the
prospects and the draft, andthat's what I've been doing
since.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
How different is that ?
Because I wonder about youwatching major league games
during a summer.
You're a draft guru, isn't yourmind always thinking about
prospects?
Sure, how much attention areyou paying to a major league
game?
Not?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
that much and, truth be told, when I come and I'm in
the clubhouse here at PNC Parkeven, it's usually just to say
hello to guys that I knew whenthey were in high school or
beyond, and I first met NeilWalker his senior year at Pine
Richland High School, you know,or beyond, and I first met Neil
Walker his senior year at PineRichland high school, for
(08:07):
instance, and we've had arelationship ever since.
Um, and there are it's not justPittsburgh guys.
So, like it, it it's greatCause I can go and I can say
hello to them and chat with them, but I don't need to talk to
them, I don't need to interviewthem.
So there's no pressure there, Idon't need anything.
Job wise, everyone's on a bluemoon.
There's something I'm workingon, but for the most part it's
(08:29):
just to catch up with peoplethat I knew, you know, before
they made it to the big leaguesand there tends to be, you know,
an appreciation, because I wastelling their story before
anyone who knew who they were.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Do they?
They do appreciate that.
Yeah, for the most part.
Yeah, not everyone.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
And you know I make it a practice not to.
You know I don't rip people LikeI'll be critical, you know, and
I'm always wrong, right, thereare guys that I think are going
to be great prospects, who makeit, who don't make it, and vice
versa, guys I don't know, andthen they end up being all-stars
and things like that, and I'llalways admit when we're wrong
(09:09):
about it.
But for the most part when youget to talk to a guy, even if
he's going to be atop-of-the-first-round kind of
player before anyone else, likeat length, they're going to
remember that.
And I've gotten, you know, someappreciations from major
superstars who are like, hey,you're the first one who wrote
(09:30):
anything about me ever and theydo tend to remember that, which
is surprising because the amountof people who you know come
into their atmosphere over thecourse of a long career.
So I try to foster those andcontinue those relationships
when I can.
So if I'm at a big league game,I love watching the game, you
(09:52):
know so.
But it's not I don't have toworry about covering it or
writing about it or what anglewould I take or anything like
that.
I can just.
I can just watch a major leaguegame.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
You say there's no pressure just sitting there
watching a game because youdon't have to write about the
game.
What pressure is there for you?
Because your job is kind oflike?
I mean, it's a crapshoot, right, draft, any sport, for the most
part Baseball more than anyother, I agree.
So what pressure is there onJonathan Mayo to say this guy's
(10:24):
going to be a big leaguer infive years?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
And then he fizzles out.
I think it's some of it is justpressure we put on ourselves.
Yes, we want it to be right.
Sure, and you know, greg, thereare.
There are different ways thatpeople who do what I do go about
it.
There are those who do it basedon what they see.
Okay, do what I do go about it.
There are those who do it basedon what they see.
They go out and evaluate andtheir reports are based on what
(10:49):
they see.
And that's not how we do it.
I'm a reporter and I always havebeen.
Now I've seen enough baseballwhere if someone's talking to me
about a guy or I'm trying todecide do I rank this guy second
or third or, more likely, 20thor 21st?
I may have an opinion based onwhat I've seen.
But one I don't have time to gosee everybody.
And two, I'm going to trust theguys whose job it is to
(11:13):
evaluate them for major leagueteams, so, whether it's the
Pirates top 30 or our draftrankings, I'm talking to scouts.
And for team top 30s, I'mtalking to farm directors and
pro scouting directors, and soI'm a collector and collator of
information.
So we try to be as thorough androbust as possible so that when
(11:34):
we put out a list, it reflectswhat the industry as a whole is
thinking.
And I I think every single yearthat we get completely right
Now.
Does that mean that we'realways going to be right about a
prospect?
No, just like, the industryisn't always right.
I'm not throwing blame at theirfeet because we'll be like, oh,
I really like this guy, sowe'll have a team that does it.
(11:57):
We'll move a guy up and downbased on what we saw in the fall
league or wherever.
But, like I said a while ago,I'll always admit that we're
going to be wrong a lot of thetime, in both directions.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
So, Jonathan, based on that because you're talking
to scouting directors, farmdirectors, baseball people,
throughout the industry, and ifyou're doing a Pirate Top 30,
you're basically collaboratingwith others to decide, this is
probably you probably wouldn'tget much argument then if you
polled everybody yeah, thatlooks, because that's what
you've done.
So the question is, if a teamlet's face it, the pirates get
(12:36):
criticized for draft picks thatdon't work out, but is it fair
to say that most teams wouldhave done what the pirates did
anyway?
It's.
In other words, you can't blamethe.
You want to blame the pirates,maybe blame over the years.
I'm not blaming this specificregime, but over the years there
have been draft picks for everyteam that fizzles out.
You could probably blamedevelopment or sometimes players
(12:58):
just don't work out.
That's just the way it is.
There's no guarantees, right I?
Or sometimes players just don'twork out.
That's just the way it is.
There are no guarantees.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Right.
I mean, even in the draftyou're talking about an
18-year-old or a 21-year-old andyou don't know necessarily
what's going to happen.
You try to do all the workpossible to mitigate that risk,
but it's so subjective, evenwhen you're doing it with all
(13:28):
the tools that you're given.
You know, and I'm a firmbeliever, that every team needs
to have some combination of theold fashioned scouting with your
eyes and all the data andanalytics that are at their
fingertips.
Now, if you leave one out ofthe door and one out of the door
and only focusing on the oneside in either direction, you're
(13:51):
not getting the fullest picturepossible.
You have a whole toolbox.
Use all the tools.
So I think, because it's sohard to get it right and then
forget about the internationalguys.
Oh boy, o'neal Cruz was sixfeet tall when he first signed.
Yeah.
So you just don't know how it'sgoing to go, even from a
(14:13):
physical maturation point.
But the reason why I talk aboutit you may have data and
analytics that say, boy, thisguy really knows how to play.
The numbers in college areunbelievable.
But if you're not watching howit goes about it, if you don't
go and visit in the home, if youdon't get a sense of what makes
them tick, you don't knowwhat's going to happen when
they're away from, either awayfrom home, if they're high
(14:34):
schoolers, or away from thatfriendly environment of college
and riding the buses for hoursin the low levels of the minors
for 140 games.
You never know until they go doit.
But the more you can know youpeek under the hood, so to speak
the better sense you're goingto get on that sort of makeup
piece.
And if you're ignoring theold-fashioned scouting and
(14:57):
evaluation, you may miss that.
And, conversely, if you ignorethe analytics and data and
you're doing it based on like oh, I really like that swing, like
there's so much information outthere now, especially from a
hitting standpoint, but also onthe mound, that you need to
enter that into your calculus toto try to mitigate that risk.
So you hope to get it right.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
That.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
that's that's there now, even at the high school
levels, the available yeah, Imean not like not nationally,
but there's so much more interms of showcases, travel teams
, like high level travel teams.
So not only are you gettingdata, but you're getting it
against good competition.
Um, you know, usa baseball nowdoes this national high school
(15:40):
invitational and that's a teamtournament and it's it depends
on where the teams are from.
But then you get to see the topdraft prospects in a team
setting, as opposed to ashowcase where sometimes you may
get a guy who look is what theylook like and great BP, great
infield outfit, but doesn't havethe feel for the game.
To see them in a in a team gamesetting where you're trying to
(16:02):
win a game, as opposed to, youknow, an all American game where
it's a one and done and you'rereally just trying to showcase
your own abilities.
So there's a lot moreinformation.
It's not as prevalent as it isin college, but there's a good
amount out there.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
So about 25 years of watching this at the amateur
level, looking at high schoolplayers, college players, what
do you think has been thebiggest, aside from analytics?
The game and the player?
What's changed?
Or is it pretty much the samethat you've noticed over time?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Well, I mean, one of the fascinating things about
baseball for me is that the gameis the same.
Yeah, I just think the playerseveryone's just so much bigger,
stronger and faster.
You see it, when they get tothe big leagues.
Yeah, the fact that someonelike Paul Skeens can come and
just step right in and you know,and that happens.
(16:58):
That's happened for years andyears where someone you know and
maybe he's an outlier, yeah,but I see more and more, even
guys in high school who looklike big leaguers, and I don't
mean like physically maxed outand they can't.
You know, there's stillprojection and they can get
bigger and stronger.
But because it's become ayear-round thing, then you could
argue the pros and cons of that, but because of that, I just
(17:22):
think that you get players whohave a much more advanced feel
and can sort of hit the groundrunning, which is probably a
good thing, since those lowershort season levels in the minor
leagues don't exist anymore.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Well, so we've heard the argument that the players
aren't as athletic, maybe, asthey used to be.
They don't to your point.
They don't play all the sportslike they used to.
So many baseball people haveencouraged players to play all
the sports.
They don't do that.
It's a year-round thing, butthat doesn't mean the players
(17:58):
are worse because of it.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
It's hard to know, right?
I think it's like with anyargument when you're trying to
compare players acrossgenerations.
How do you compare Shohei otanito willie mays?
I don't know how you do that,can you, you know?
uh, statistically is really theonly way you can do it now I
think in every generation thereare those players that you get
(18:23):
the sense they would beincredible, no matter where they
were.
You know, willie Mays, with thestrength and conditioning
advancements that we've seen now, my goodness right, it's crazy.
So I do think it's a shame thatthere are fewer multi-sport
athletes who end up in baseball.
(18:44):
I know that's somethingbaseball's tried to address, but
you can't.
You can't force it.
They have to want to play thesport.
But I always appreciate when Italk to scouting directors and
GMs who kind of covet and valuethose multi-sport guys, even if
(19:04):
it means that it may take them alittle bit longer in the minors
to get to the big leagues andthis is a success-oriented
business.
So that can take some courage.
But I appreciate the teams thatwant to look at players like
that.
The Pirates and Bubba Chandler,I think, is a really good
example where they're like we'rebetting on this athlete and
(19:28):
once we focus him in he's goingto take off.
And they were right in thiscase.
It seems Pirate fans are goingto find out this year but it
doesn't always work out.
But I think I'd rather be wrongon that guy than the safer bet.
But I'm also not the onewriting the checks to them.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
So it's easy for me to say by the way, because you
live in Pittsburgh, and you, howdid you end up coming to
Pittsburgh, by the way, in 2001,?
My wife is a Taylor Aldericehigh school grad, that there's
the answer there.
There we have it.
Yeah, she grew up here.
Well so, but you grew up aYankee or Mets fan.
Yes, really.
Yeah, equally it depended, sowho was winning?
(20:09):
The yankees?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
well so.
So when I first came intobaseball consciousness, it was
when the yankees wonback-to-back world series in the
late 70s and I always kind ofliked both of them.
But honestly, it was when darylstrawberry got called up, and I
always bring this up becausethey were still terrible.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
It wasn't when they got good, okay, they got good.
The next year Fair.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Because Gooden came up the year after that but I'd
never seen.
I didn't remember ReggieJackson enough for me to think,
oh, like that guy, that you needto stop and watch every at-bat.
And then, when Strawberry cameup, you wanted to watch every at
bat because you didn't knowwhat was going to happen.
(20:51):
It was such a majestic swingand he could do things you'd
never seen before.
So that's when I sort ofshifted.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
So I like both teams.
Well, when you watch O'NealCruz, you must think here's a
guy that looks like he.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
You want to stop and watch.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Right, yeah, he's one of those rare players.
You've got to stop and watchthis guy.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Not just when he's in the batter's box Anytime,
especially because he's stillfiguring it out.
It's sort of fascinatingbecause you'll see him one time
and it looks like it's the firsttime he's held a baseball.
He looks lost.
I saw him in the Fall Leaguewhen he played and he was tired
and he was just like you knowand it showed and it was like
(21:34):
wow, I don't know about you know.
And then there are times wherehe's the most electric player in
baseball, or at least on thatshort list Do you it's hard not
to because you live here.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Kind of rude for the Pirates then I would think even
though you grew up a Yankee Metsfan, you don't want to say that
.
I can say that I mean, yeah,sure, I'm not kidding.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Naturally, of course, I root for the Pirates.
I haven't rooted for a teamlike really rooted for a team
since I was a kid.
(22:18):
Sometimes it's an occupationalhazard.
Yeah, you know the businessthat we're in.
When you find a player who'sgood at talking, that matters
more, and I know the rest of themedia would talk to him more.
So when, when Michael A Taylorgot here and I knew Michael back
from when he was a prospect,he's so great to talk to and I'm
like, and he's had a good bigleague career Don't get me wrong
.
There are guys that I've talkedto who never really made it.
(22:40):
I'm like, oh, that at playingbecause they were so great to
talk to.
And so my list of like myfavorite all-time players are
all like guys who are reallygreat interviews.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
So it's a little skewed and any couple that come
to mind, one or two, even ifthey didn't make it.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, or is there something that you're doing Well
?
So there are a few.
There are a few Like TaylorTrammell, one of my favorite
interviews of all time.
I think it was his first fullyear, he was still with the Reds
and we would do an interview inevery spring training stop.
So I did the interview and thenwe sat and talked for another
45 minutes to the point where Iwas kind of like, don't you have
(23:21):
to do something?
And he was done for the day.
It was early.
It was before games and thingslike that he was like no, I'm
good he was 19.
Maybe he was 20.
And to this day I mean Ihaven't run, unfortunately.
I haven't run into him.
So he's pretty high up there.
Malik Smith, I don't know ifyou remember him.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Oh yeah, I remember him Tremendous talker Brett
Phillips.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
So everyone knows his personality now, so everyone
knows his personality.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
He's legit.
The other two, jonathan.
Some guys aren't necessarilylegit.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Some guys do it to do it for the show or for the good
write-up.
The beautiful thing, greg, isthat when I talk to them, no one
knows who they are, so they'renot.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah, you know from the ground.
I know You're not putting on anair.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I think I'm getting a sense of who they are, and of
who they are, and I'm nottypically doing it in front of a
camera.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
It's, you know it's audio.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah, um, but so Brett Phillips and I did.
I remember why once did a likea podcast.
We did an entire episode and wejust sat in the dugout and we
talked for an hour.
It was crazy and uh, so he.
So he's great.
There's, there's, there's a fewmore.
I think the probably myfavorite of the guys who really
really made it is JulioRodriguez.
(24:29):
Oh wow, and he obviously and Iknew it was coming, but he was
so great to talk to in English.
From a very early age.
That's when I knew I'm likethis is a special kid who
understood that that was animportant piece.
And he's the one I kind of hint, hinted at him, who thanked me
(24:50):
for being the first person toever write anything about him,
and that really hit me becausehe's I mean, he's as big as
there is and I like I hope hehas a full healthy season
because he's so exciting towatch.
So I think I think he's the one,but I mean the list goes on and
on.
I mean I talked to AndrewMcCutcheon when he was 19 for
the first time.
So he recorded a video for myson's bar mitzvah montage.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Oh my gosh.
So, yeah, when would that havebeen?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
So he's 23 now.
He's coming in 24 for 11 yearsago.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
So he was established in the big leagues?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Oh, he was established in the big leagues,
but I felt I could ask him yeah,Because I also knew that he
could be like no, and then I'dbe fine with it.
And then, of course, I had toget him to do one for my
daughter because I didn't wanther to be a.
She's not as big of a.
She's a baseball fan, but notas much as my son, who played.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
She's a big McCutcheon fan now, oh,
absolutely, what about Jonathan,in terms of?
Okay, so you're going around,you're talking to different
people, you've got maybesomebody under the radar that
you think you've got a hunchabout this guy?
Is there somebody?
Over the years that you hit,you made it?
(26:09):
You know what man you can patyourself on the back, even
though that's not necessarilywhat you normally do.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
There really aren't that many surprises maybe no,
there are always surprises.
You're counting on myinstitutional memory, which is
awful.
So I'm sure there are guys whoand sometimes it's we don't rank
them too high because we don'tget that kind of feedback.
But I'm kind of like that guyis kind of interesting.
I'm not sure what he's going tobe, but I have a feeling he's
(26:40):
going to be pretty good, and Ican't think of one right now.
Well, you may even track ityourself.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
You may not come out boldly and say something based
on the.
You may track it yourself.
You may not come out boldly andsay something based on the, you
may track it yourself.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
No, because, like I said, because that's what I do.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
A lot of times I'm a sport training.
I go to the Pirate City, yeah,and these guys are coming up.
I'll watch some games and I'mthinking to myself who is that
guy?
And keep so.
Who's on the top of?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
your list.
Well, it's not that, I'm afraidto toot my own horn because I
will, but I just can't think ofsomebody who I was like.
Oh, and sometimes it's guys whoend up being like a utility guy
.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, that's one thing.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I'll give you an example, and I can't even take
credit for them because I wasn'teven necessarily doing their
list at the time.
I don't remember, but Iremember I saw Tommy Edmund play
.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Oh, that's a good one .
Speaker 2 (27:30):
In State College.
Wow I did like over the years Iwould do a couple of broadcasts
for, like the I forget theaffiliate out there Central PA.
They would do some StateCollege Spikes games and I saw
it was his summer debut.
I think he went five for fiveso it was easy to be like huh
(27:51):
and to me I remember thinkinglike he is the quintessential
Cardinals prospect, where he'snever going to rank super high.
He doesn't have like the wowtools but I'm like he's going to
be a better big leaguer than heis a prospect and the Cardinals
are good at that.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
And they got another one coming, Thomas Segese.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Who's kind of an under-the-radar rookie of the
year candidate to keep an eye on, because I think he's got a
chance to play.
But they're really good atfinding those guys and the way
they teach it.
But this was his first summerso I'm like all right, he can
run a little bit At.
But this was his first summerso I'm like all right, he can
run a little bit.
At the time I'm like he canplay shortstop.
It wasn't clear whether hewould stick it short, but I was
like he's going to be a bigleaguer and not a lot of people.
(28:35):
You know he was, I think, asixth rounder.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
It wasn't like a, you know, I mean the book that you
referenced and lucky and lucky.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yep, yeah, talking about guys like uh, albert pools
yeah, joey vato, yeah, uh, guyswho were I mean, vato was a
second rounder, but it still wasnot too many people had that
high degrom, mookie betts, yeah,lorenzo kane, um, guys like
that.
So I love stories like likethis and uh, you know I missed
the uh, some of those werebefore my time ranking guys and
some of them we like we missedon.
(29:14):
You know, jacob DeGrom came sofast.
They were like what happened?
Yeah, yeah Cause you know he hadTommy John surgery right away
and and then you know he he shotthrough with Mookie Betts, was
a guy that we almost didn't havetime to rank appropriately
because he had one huge year.
There's a guy in the Red Soxsystem now, christian Campbell,
who is kind of Mookie Betts 2.0.
Fourth round pick, probably asecond baseman, but you're not
(29:37):
sure, and first full year wentfrom high A to triple A.
He may be their opening daysecond baseman and he was not on
the Red Sox top 30 to start the2024 season and without I'm not
looking at it right now I thinkhe's number eight on the top
100 overall list right now.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
That is crazy, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there are guys like that allthe time.
I love guys.
So for me again, not pattingmyself on the back by any
stretch, but thinking about guysthat just came to the
organization you're watchingearly One that comes to mind was
like Josh Harrison.
When that trade was made withthe Cubs he was like an
afterthought Right, and they'llnever say that these teams, I
(30:15):
understand it.
The other trade was like forAscanio, a pitcher, a couple
other pitchers, and then therewas Josh Harrison with the Cub
deal.
But he's like the little enginethat could and the heart, the
drive, the desire, and then endsup becoming an everyday player
at some position.
And Adam Frazier was anotherguy who they kind of talked down
(30:36):
about when he got to and thenthey started playing him out in
left field different positions.
I thought, well, what if youput him maybe at second base,
stuck him there every day, justsee what happens.
Because I don't think werealize, fans, how difficult it
is to succeed when you first getto the big leagues at anything,
but then to be asked to startbouncing around different
positions.
Well, the issues.
(30:56):
I haven't done it well, right.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, that's the guys who have done it.
And then I think nowadays a lotof systems they encourage
encourage guys around.
Well, I think you have tobecause, I mean, my favorite
about that was Trevor Story whenhe was coming up with the
Rockies and the Rockies wereearly on a team that would have
guys play all three infieldpositions and the funny thing
(31:19):
about Trevor Story is they'relike well, you don't know if
he's going to be a shortstop,but we're going to.
You know, we want him to keephis athleticism.
He's going to play short, wewant him to have all three
because we think the bat's goingto play and you want to make
sure that if the bat's ready, wehave options right to plug them
in.
Now it happened that it wasright when Tulo got hurt and
(31:40):
then was gone, you know, and heended up playing shortstop and
ended up being a bettershortstop than people expected.
But you know, I think if youteach it early, there are some
guys who like moving around.
They like this sort ofespecially.
You know, some of them are likeI like not knowing where I'm
going to be.
It keeps them out of their head.
Other people are like I don'tmind moving around, but I'd like
to know ahead of time where I'mgoing to be.
(32:02):
So I think it's like knowingthe personalities of players
helps.
But yeah, having a guy whohadn't moved around and then
suddenly you're like, hey, weneed you to move around, that's
a trickier.
I think you start to do that alot more.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
like you said.
Certainly the Pirates do that.
They love bouncing guys.
The other argument is when youtry to bounce guys around, then
they never have a position.
There's never really a setlineup and I understand both
arguments.
You talk about watching guysand great stories and talk about
(32:38):
analytics and needing scouting,and both numbers and they have
to converge.
You can't have one without theother these days.
Age-old question now last fewyears is it a really fine
balance where analytics, youdon't want it to be too
pervasive in the game, right?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
No, you don't want it to take over.
We don't want it to become likethe baseball version of
Terminator, where the machinesrun everything yeah yeah,
because it's still human beingsplaying the sport and not only
knowing, like to the point Imade earlier, what makes them
tick in terms of handlingadversity, things like that, and
(33:20):
you never can be sure untilthey go out and do it, even if
you scout them really well.
But how they react to baseballsituations right, they're not.
They're not not board gamepieces or video game animations
that someone else is controlling.
They still need to go and knowwhere to be on a on a cutoff
(33:40):
play in deep right field whenthere's a play at third, and
those things that are so uniqueto baseball that you can't just
use numbers to predict what'sgoing to happen.
I think that all of the data isgood.
I just think that if you leantoo heavily in that direction,
(34:06):
it's not great and I'll get on asoapbox that my colleague, jim
Callison I get on all the time,for instance, is every team has
a model for the draft andthey'll plug a player in and
there's all these variables thatthey'll use to say, well,
whether we should value this guy, and age is a big indicator.
So if you have a kid who'salready 19 come draft time,
(34:31):
there are teams that won'tconsider that player full stop
and certainly not in the firstround, and I always wondered
about that.
Because that same player and Iunderstand it, because they're a
little older, depending onwhere they are playing high
school the competition there's abig difference between 19 and
18.
They'll be draft-eligiblesophomores in two years and
(34:54):
teams salivate over that guy.
Now you have two years ofcollege data, so I understand
the data reason, but I'm likeboy, that's a.
Brett Beatty is a big example,the one I always I kind of
always think of and juries outin terms of what kind of big
leaguer is going to be.
But this is a guy that therewere teams that were like we
won't, we won't even considerhim.
In the first round, the Metstook him 13th overall.
Whatever it was, he was in thebig leagues at age 22.
(35:16):
That's young for the levelright.
So I think that you can go sortof too full on and the teams
that like only believe in themodel and won't say like, use
the model, it's fine, andthey're always constantly
tweaking it as a guideline.
Use it as a like with any ofthese things.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Use it as one of those tools, yes, and if all
things are being equal, andplayer A the model likes and
player B the model doesn't like,sure, take player A, but to
completely cast off player Bbecause he might be a little too
old, like I think you owe it toyourself, well, let's dig in a
little bit more.
What are the swing that we like?
(35:55):
Where was he playing?
I mean, brett Beatty was aTexas high schooler.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
He wasn't playing in Michigan with all due respect to
Michigan, but the baseball'sdifferent.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I think that you can get a little short-sighted
because of all the data, so aslong as you don't get blinded by
it, it can be extremelyvaluable because it is a
predictor.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
So the game's okay in that respect.
Right now Do you think too muchis made about people griping
about numbers and stats andanalytics?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
I think when it becomes a problem, or when teams
decide that they don't need asmany scouts or even instructors
because we can get all the dataand figure out what's going on,
and that that seems to be acyclical thing, greg.
So I, I don't know that it's aproblem that's so embedded that
(36:52):
we they can't come back from it.
It swings back and forth and so, like this offseason,
unfortunately, was one of theswings where a lot of teams got
rid of a lot of people.
Yeah, and I always think that'sa shame and it's short-sighted.
And then eventually they'llrealize oh wait, you know, we
haven't been like.
Our farm system's not doingwell, we're not getting guys to
the big leagues, and thenthey'll that's a great comeback.
(37:14):
Then we'll rehire all that.
We'll rehire those people.
Someone who's been in the gamelonger than me and who's smarter
than me and that sort of thingsaid he goes it always the
pendulum always shifts back andforth.
Now maybe the, the reins thatthe pendulum swings in is a
little bit different, yeah, soit's a little shifted more in
that sort of data direction.
I think it's okay, as long asteams don't completely lose
(37:36):
sight of the importance of stillneed those eyes on the game,
right eyes on the game and thatit's human beings playing it.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Hey, what did you enjoy more?
Writing a book or producing afilm?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Ah, well, the, the writing the book and so
producing the film.
I got a producer credit becauseit was my basic idea, but you
were involved.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Oh, I was already involved and they were silly
enough to put me in it.
You deserve it.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Well, no, I earned.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
The producer credit, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Yeah, but I mean that was so much fun.
That was not one of thosethings I had on my bucket list
Writing a book kind of was as awriter was not one of those
things I had on my bucket list.
Writing a book kind of was.
As a writer, I've now writtentwo over the course of 15 years.
My other one was in 2008, butuh that one was what uh, it was
called facing clements, it was a, that's right, it was a book.
(38:33):
That wasn't my idea, like thateditor came to me with it.
But each chapter was talking tohitters about the challenge of
facing roger clements, so it wasfun.
But this smart, wrong and luckywas my idea, so it was my baby.
So I had a little more investedin the film was my idea, but
I'm not a filmmaker.
I have a friend who now.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
The film, by the way, is about team Israel in the
world baseball classic, the 2017world baseball classic and the,
the.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
The concept of that was kind of like, because I'm
Jewish and I'm always fascinatedwith who the Jewish players are
.
I'm like, well, let's dig into.
Like these players who are like, yes, I'm happy to be known, I
embrace being known as a Jewishbaseball player and the Jewish
community, painting with a broadbrush like loves baseball and
(39:19):
loves who the Jewish baseballplayers are, and they kind of
take them in as family.
So I'm like, well, let's dig in.
What do these players thinkabout it?
And a lot of them aren'treligious or anything like that.
So let's take them to israel.
Well, what a better way, let'slet them dig in.
And we thought that was gonnabe the whole thing and we're
gonna go to the world baseballclassic and the climactic scene
will be the first pitch.
Look, they made it there, yeah,and then they won games and
(39:41):
then it turned into a Cinderellastory.
That is so great and as myfriend the filmmaker said is
they went from a short film to afull-length documentary because
of all that and my friend,who's the filmmaker I've known
since you know we were 15, 14.
And we went to Jewish sleepawaycamp together.
So that came together and waskind of crazy confluence of
(40:02):
events and it was a blast.
So the idea was mine, I did alot of the talking to the
players and I'm in it and thingslike that.
But the book is really like myso I probably feel a little more
connected.
Well, I don't feel moreconnected to it, but it was more
my thing.
The the film, just as my likemy Jewish self and my baseball
(40:24):
self coming together is notsomething I ever could have
imagined would happen, so it'spretty cool.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
It is fascinating.
I've got some really goodJewish friends and sometimes
I'll, you know, call them ortext them.
I said, you know, I think hemight be a Jewish player and he
said no, he's not or he is.
And I looked at at the.
The pirates have a greathistory and legacy of, of course
, hank greenberg, yeah, uh.
But you think over the years,and they just got the spencer
(40:49):
horowitz.
Spencer horowitz, yeah I say jayhorowitz spencer horowitz, jay,
jay, I got, I got, I got burnedby that.
By the way, I believe that oh Idid too did you?
Speaker 2 (40:59):
yeah, but I went on the air with it in spring
training.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
I went on the air and somebody said you know, that is
not Jay's grandson.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
So Jay Horowitz was a long time he was the PR guy for
the Mets and totally wouldtweet without any wink wink
saying that that's his grandson.
And the thing is like sotypically it's Horowitz,
h-o-r-o-w-i-t-z, but both ofthem spell it Horowitz.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Oh, I didn't even realize that.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
That's what made it kind of believable.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
And I'm like sure why not.
And the funny thing is, sothere's a really good prospect
with the Baltimore Orioles.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Not Jewish, but his name is Kobe Mayo yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
He's another guy who could be a rookie of the year
candidate this year, assuming heplays every day.
I have periodically sort oflike yeah, that's my nephew and
I won't say yes or no if peopleask me directly.
But there have been enoughtimes where I make it clear he's
not really my nephew.
I got a picture with him inspring training a few years ago.
I'm like what family reunion sothere are a few people out there
(42:00):
like is he really?
Because I did have someone likehey, if he's your nephew, does
that mean he could play for teamisrael?
So I'm like, no, he, no, hecannot.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
But thanks for asking that is great, but it is true
about the, the pirates over theyears, about different players
and ike davis, yeah, being beingone who was prominently
featured in your film with thatwe have your home run call in
the movie I'm actually gonnahave to ask spencer, we should
bring uh back uh the muzzle tub.
Yeah, I have to do that, but uh,it it's.
(42:31):
I asked you before about you'rerooting for the pirates and how
you, when you're in town youlive here you kind of have to
essentially become a fan of,certainly a fan of the city and
the team.
We always ask Jonathan,withhold my cutter.
What brings all of thistogether is the stories of how
people got to where they, thepassion people have now that
(42:54):
you're a Pittsburgher, and whatmakes Pittsburgh unique, whether
it's sports or anything else.
Do you have a thought aboutthat, and is it unique in your
mind?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
I think it is unique.
I've never seen anything likeit, for a whole host of reasons
and I'll tell a few stories.
So, from a sports standpoint,the ballpark down the road from
where we are right now, andyou've been around baseball.
If you want to argue, there areothers that are maybe as good.
Okay, there isn't one better,there isn't one better, and
(43:27):
maybe I know we're biased and Iknow the press box is 4 million
miles up in the sky, but boy,what a view.
So that's part of it and thelove of sports in general.
You know, for a city that's notNew York, you know it's a
smaller city, I think the, thepeople are genuine.
(43:51):
That's not unique, that's notthe only place, but it's not.
The thing that's kind ofinteresting about Pittsburgh to
me is like it's not East coast,it's not Midwest, I don't know
what it is.
I don't know what you call it,it's its own thing, but probably
I mean honestly I think thebiggest thing is the accent and
I remember my wife, you know,who grew up here and she does a
(44:12):
fantastic Pittsburgh accent Doesshe?
She doesn't when she talksnormally and she would do it.
And I always thought like oh,it's a little bit of a
caricature.
And I remember one of the timeswe were visiting cause her
parents were lifelongPittsburghers I think third or
fourth generation.
And uh, and we were in thestrip district and we're just
(44:33):
walking them and somebody walksin and sounded exactly like my
wife's imitation and I stoppeddead in my tracks I was like you
gotta be kidding me.
So I did make her promise thatif we moved here our kids would
not speak that way.
But I love it.
I mean, it's one of thosethings that you hear it.
And even my mom was a lifelongNew Yorker and then in New
(44:54):
Jersey and she retired.
She moved here 20 plus yearsago Once she retired to be close
to her grandkids.
She will be someplace else andshe'll hear the accent.
She's like are you frompittsburgh?
And people will be like how doyou know?
Speaker 1 (45:04):
we're like really, are you serious you?
Speaker 2 (45:07):
know I love it.
I mean, I mean, where elsewould myron cope be, someone
people would want to listen to?
And yet when we would come tovisit and we would put on
steelers games and myfather-in-law, who was a huge
Steelers fan, would turn the TVvolume down and turn the radio
up.
And the first time I listenedto it I'm like why are we doing
this?
And then you have to listen,you had to, right, couldn't help
(45:30):
it, right.
So I, I think you know, I'm sureevery city has those characters
, those, uh, the, those accents,both in terms of language and
just what makes the, the hillsand and things like the
topography here, so interesting.
It's just, it's a reallyinteresting place that I had
(45:53):
never been to before I met mywife, so it wasn't like one of
these places I had been to.
I'm like, oh sure, we'll go toPittsburgh, my wife, so it
wasn't like one of these placesI had been to.
I'm like, oh sure, we'll go toPittsburgh.
And obviously we visited abunch before we moved here, but
I didn't know anything about,like, a lot of people not from
Pittsburgh.
My knowledge of Pittsburgh was,you know, the 70s Steelers.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
And Footloose.
I'm not Footloose.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Well, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
No no.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Footloose was here, wasn't?
Speaker 2 (46:19):
it.
No, no, footloose was here,wasn't it?
Footloose is a Kevin Baconmovie.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Oh, boy Leonard Lee.
Can you help us out with themovie?
Speaker 2 (46:28):
no, no she's in the steel mill and she gets the
dancing audition.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
That's not Footloose that's not Footloose.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Footloose is Kevin Bacon and John Lithgow's the
Reverend.
This is terrible.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
I know I can't believe it.
I'll be so mad.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
I know the song I'm a maniac, maniac.
I can sing all the songs fromit.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Flash dance.
Thank you, Leonard Lee.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
I apologize to the people of Pittsburgh and to the
filmmakers that made thatclassic, I think there was this
image of the steel town andthings like that, and that was
all I knew about Pittsburgh.
Maybe the Fish to SavePittsburgh?
Speaker 1 (47:13):
I probably saw that movie.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
But I really didn't know much about it at all.
I mean, I remember the piratesand the Stargill stars and
things like that when I was akid, but I'd never been here.
So I love it here.
I raised a family here and mykids are kind of grown, but
we're still here and notplanning on going anywhere
(47:38):
anytime soon, Isn't it?
Speaker 1 (47:38):
interesting.
I don't know if you've had thisexperience where you have
people who may have not visitedPittsburgh recently out-of-town
friends, family, whatnot andthey come to Pittsburgh Fans
have talked about this beforethey come and PNC Park's been a
destination and I sometimes willbring up clients or fans up
into the booth to show them.
And I never knew what a greatcity this was.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Had this, this idea, the old smoky city, right steel
I mean, it's even in the timethat we've been here and I'll,
you know, be honest, when, whenwe first moved here, we we had
been in in new york, we lived inbrooklyn, where you fall out of
bed and there are 400restaurants, and when we first
came here, we're like, what didwe do?
Yeah, uh, because it was.
You know, I won't say it wassleepy in 2001, it had 2001.
(48:20):
It wasn't the old sooty steelcity that my mother-in-law would
talk about, but it was not thescene that it is now and it's
changed so much, mostly for thegood.
Anytime there's developmentlike that, you worry about it
(48:40):
but seeing it evolve over time.
But it's such a manageableplace to be and I love.
My kids were able to grow uphere and we live in the city.
So it's interesting.
I'd never been in a place whereyou have neighborhoods, where
(49:01):
you have a house and a yard, butyou're actually in the city.
I grew up in suburban NewJersey so my idea of city was
New York.
Then I went to college in WestPhiladelphia.
Philadelphia is a city city.
To get that neighborhood-y feelyou had to go out to the
suburbs.
You can have all of it here.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
It's been great, it's great.
And one of my favorite thingsabout the city of Pittsburgh is
that a guy that's become ayinzer, he calls himself a.
He combines y'all and yinzerwith these y'alls.
It's Michael McHenry.
We'll toast to him.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
We will.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
And we'll look forward to having him back on
his show one of these days.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
by the way, I hope so , didn't he?
Speaker 1 (49:44):
encourage you to come on, hold my Cutter.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
He has been talking to me about this.
For how long has this show beengoing?
Speaker 1 (49:49):
on now A good year plus.
Yeah, this is like show number75 already.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
From the get-go.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
So the fact that it took 75 shows to have me on
Michael shame on you, but anywayshame on you, and now I finally
come and he's not here but it'sall good and it made for a
better program.
I got to use his mug, yeah, hismug.
Thank you, jonathan thank you,greg.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
I really enjoyed it see you next time I'll hold my
cutter.
We're here, just a few blocks away from PNC Park
burned by Rocky Patel, and we'vegot a very special guest.
As always, we kick off, hold myCutter with the featured smoke,
and it is the Dark Star.
Yeah, one of my favorite thingsabout the city of Pittsburgh is
that a guy that's become ayinzer he calls himself a—he
(00:22):
combines y'all and yinzer withthese y'alls are is, uh, michael
mckenry who uh, we'll toast tohim we will and we'll look
forward to having him back andon his show one of these days.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
By the way, I hope so , because didn't he?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
encourage you to come on hold my cutter he's been
talking to me about this.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
For how long has the show been?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
going on a good year.
Plus yes from the show number75 already from the get-go.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So the fact that it took 75 shows to have me on.
Michael shame on you, butanyway.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Shame on you.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
And now I finally come and he's not here.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
But it's all good and it made for a better program.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I got to use his mug.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, his mug.
Thank you, Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Thank you.
I don't know to teach.
Both my parents were teachers.
I'm like I don't really, Idon't think I want to do that.
It's like those who can't do,right you?
know, or or broadcast as thecase may be and so I always knew
I wanted to do something aroundsports, whether it was talking
about it or writing about it,and writing was the direction I
kind of headed in.
Yeah, in high school we had anewspaper and like, and I knew
(01:22):
that I wanted to do somethingalong those lines.
I had a, an amazing journalismteacher in high school, uh, who
kind of was very encouraging anduh, then when I went to college
, we had a really good dailynewspaper and I was a sports
editor there.
Um, there've been some reallygood sports writers who've come
out of there.
Kenny Rosenthal also went toPenn.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
How about that?
How about going to Penn?
Yeah, doggone it.
What's up with that?
I got lucky.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
You know, a lot of the road from northern New
Jersey to the University ofPennsylvania was very well worn
A lot of New Jersey kids there.
But I really majored in thenewspaper there.
I was a sports editor there.
But even then I would have gonewherever you know, wherever the
jobs were.
Uh, you know, even back thenjournalism jobs weren't always
(02:09):
so easy to come by and uh, Ijust got lucky that my first
jobs were, you know, fornewspapers and things like that
and I bounced around a bunch andkept going from there, Then
your your first break inbaseball came.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
how?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, I was working at the New York Post but I was
like a low-level, I was an agateclerk, and agate is the word
for small type.
So back when people remembernewspapers and there would be
the pages with the box scoresand the statistics, I would
paginate those, you know, Iwould line it up and, uh, I knew
(02:47):
it was time for me to make achange, when I was having dreams
about oh, I hope this box scorefits here and it's sort of like
Tetris.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
And uh, but I got to get out and write a decent
amount.
So my first break came whenmajor league baseball was
looking to hire its first everfull-time staff writer back in
1999.
They had never had one, therewas a staff of three.
They used a lot of freelancersand writers around the country
and I had actually interviewedfor a job with Major League
(03:14):
Baseball's publishing departmentthe year prior but hadn't
gotten that job.
But I guess made enough of animpression that the director of
publishing handed my resume downand in April of 1999, I started
and I've been there ever since.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
What was that?
Like Jonathan, the first day onthe job there.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, it was crazy because when we first started it
was in the commissioner'soffice, so I would go up to the
whatever floor it was.
My memory says it was the 31stfloor.
I may be making that up, butwho?
Speaker 1 (03:42):
knows, it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
And every day I would walk by the czar of disciplines
office.
Back then that was FrankRobinson.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
So I would walk by hall of fame or Frank Robinson's
office every single day andhe'd be reading his newspaper
and he'd put his newspaper downand give me a little wave.
And I'm like come on and Iremember the first time I did it
I did like a triple take, youknow kind of like wait is it
Frank Robinson?
But, craig, it's even crazierthan that, because in those
(04:15):
early days a lot of talent cameout of those offices.
His like executive assistantlike the guy who answered his
phone is now the general managerfor the San Diego Padres, aj
Preller.
He would come over and want totalk to me about like the third
string catcher and double A here.
I'm like you're not going to behere very long.
But Jeff Breidich worked inthose offices too.
(04:36):
He ended up being the generalmanager of the Rockies.
It's kind of nuts, but Iremember.
Yeah, aj Preller was FrankRobinson's assistant when I
first started there.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So you go by his office and you realize okay, now
I am indeed in the big leagues,obviously, walking by Frank
Robinson every day.
Do you remember the first thingthat you wrote and how cool it
was to see it published?
Or one of your first.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I don't remember the first thing.
I remember the first time Itraveled, uh, for this job.
This was the year that, uh, thebaltimore rails went to cuba.
Now, I didn't get to go to cuba, I started like two weeks too
late, but the first thing I everdid is I went to baltimore when
the cuban team came tobaltimore.
So I don't remember what Iwrote, but I remember like, wow,
(05:25):
this is the first time I'mtraveling for baseball.
Um, so, yeah, that was thefirst time and it's it's been so
much fun Cause I've gone toevery all-star game since 1999,
except for one, uh, the year mydaughter was born.
I couldn't make it to that onebecause I wanted to.
You know, stay married Goodidea.
(05:48):
But you know, so I went to thatall-star game in 99, and that
was Boston, and I remember thatthat was Ted Williams on the
field and everyone was notscripted circled around Ted
Williams because you know he wasclosing in the end of his life
and they knew there wasn't muchtime.
I think Tony Gwynn was theimpetus for that.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
To be at.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Fenway Park for the All-Star game, and that that was
my first All-Star game, alsothe first Futures game.
I wasn't covering Prospectsonly then, but it was still the
first Futures game ever.
Alfonso Soriano hit two homersin that game.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
No way.
So how did it morph into theprospects?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
You know, I was kind of just a national major league
writer for a few years and Ialways liked writing about
prospects when I could.
I started going to the ArizonaFall League, probably by 2000.
We started doing regularcoverage there and the draft has
been big on the website evenfrom way back then.
So I always liked doing thosestories.
(06:50):
And you know, it was a coupleof years after we moved here.
I moved here to Pittsburgh inthe fall of 01.
And after 2002, before 2003, Iwas like you know, we had we had
hired a whole bunch more staff.
We had some really goodnational writers.
We had we had hired a wholebunch more staff, we had some
really good national writers andwe had this little page for
prospects.
We didn't have someonededicated to doing it.
(07:11):
I was, like you know, we couldprobably find enough to write
about.
I had no idea what you knowPandora's box I was opening
there, but so it was.
2003 was the first time Ishifted to just doing the
prospects and the draft, andthat's what I've been doing
since.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
How different is that ?
Because I wonder about youwatching major league games
during a summer.
You're a draft guru, isn't yourmind always thinking about
prospects?
Sure, how much attention areyou paying to a major league
game?
Not?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
that much and, truth be told, when I come and I'm in
the clubhouse here at PNC Parkeven, it's usually just to say
hello to guys that I knew whenthey were in high school or
beyond, and I first met NeilWalker his senior year at Pine
Richland High School, you know,or beyond, and I first met Neil
Walker his senior year at PineRichland high school, for
(08:07):
instance, and we've had arelationship ever since.
Um, and there are it's not justPittsburgh guys.
So, like it, it it's greatCause I can go and I can say
hello to them and chat with them, but I don't need to talk to
them, I don't need to interviewthem.
So there's no pressure there, Idon't need anything.
Job wise, everyone's on a bluemoon.
There's something I'm workingon, but for the most part it's
(08:29):
just to catch up with peoplethat I knew, you know, before
they made it to the big leaguesand there tends to be, you know,
an appreciation, because I wastelling their story before
anyone who knew who they were.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Do they?
They do appreciate that.
Yeah, for the most part.
Yeah, not everyone.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
And you know I make it a practice not to.
You know I don't rip people LikeI'll be critical, you know, and
I'm always wrong, right, thereare guys that I think are going
to be great prospects, who makeit, who don't make it, and vice
versa, guys I don't know, andthen they end up being all-stars
and things like that, and I'llalways admit when we're wrong
(09:09):
about it.
But for the most part when youget to talk to a guy, even if
he's going to be atop-of-the-first-round kind of
player before anyone else, likeat length, they're going to
remember that.
And I've gotten, you know, someappreciations from major
superstars who are like, hey,you're the first one who wrote
(09:30):
anything about me ever and theydo tend to remember that, which
is surprising because the amountof people who you know come
into their atmosphere over thecourse of a long career.
So I try to foster those andcontinue those relationships
when I can.
So if I'm at a big league game,I love watching the game, you
(09:52):
know so.
But it's not I don't have toworry about covering it or
writing about it or what anglewould I take or anything like
that.
I can just.
I can just watch a major leaguegame.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
You say there's no pressure just sitting there
watching a game because youdon't have to write about the
game.
What pressure is there for you?
Because your job is kind oflike?
I mean, it's a crapshoot, right, draft, any sport, for the most
part Baseball more than anyother, I agree.
So what pressure is there onJonathan Mayo to say this guy's
(10:24):
going to be a big leaguer infive years?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
And then he fizzles out.
I think it's some of it is justpressure we put on ourselves.
Yes, we want it to be right.
Sure, and you know, greg, thereare.
There are different ways thatpeople who do what I do go about
it.
There are those who do it basedon what they see.
Okay, do what I do go about it.
There are those who do it basedon what they see.
They go out and evaluate andtheir reports are based on what
(10:49):
they see.
And that's not how we do it.
I'm a reporter and I always havebeen.
Now I've seen enough baseballwhere if someone's talking to me
about a guy or I'm trying todecide do I rank this guy second
or third or, more likely, 20thor 21st?
I may have an opinion based onwhat I've seen.
But one I don't have time to gosee everybody.
And two, I'm going to trust theguys whose job it is to
(11:13):
evaluate them for major leagueteams, so, whether it's the
Pirates top 30 or our draftrankings, I'm talking to scouts.
And for team top 30s, I'mtalking to farm directors and
pro scouting directors, and soI'm a collector and collator of
information.
So we try to be as thorough androbust as possible so that when
(11:34):
we put out a list, it reflectswhat the industry as a whole is
thinking.
And I I think every single yearthat we get completely right
Now.
Does that mean that we'realways going to be right about a
prospect?
No, just like, the industryisn't always right.
I'm not throwing blame at theirfeet because we'll be like, oh,
I really like this guy, sowe'll have a team that does it.
(11:57):
We'll move a guy up and downbased on what we saw in the fall
league or wherever.
But, like I said a while ago,I'll always admit that we're
going to be wrong a lot of thetime, in both directions.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
So, Jonathan, based on that because you're talking
to scouting directors, farmdirectors, baseball people,
throughout the industry, and ifyou're doing a Pirate Top 30,
you're basically collaboratingwith others to decide, this is
probably you probably wouldn'tget much argument then if you
polled everybody yeah, thatlooks, because that's what
you've done.
So the question is, if a teamlet's face it, the pirates get
(12:36):
criticized for draft picks thatdon't work out, but is it fair
to say that most teams wouldhave done what the pirates did
anyway?
It's.
In other words, you can't blamethe.
You want to blame the pirates,maybe blame over the years.
I'm not blaming this specificregime, but over the years there
have been draft picks for everyteam that fizzles out.
You could probably blamedevelopment or sometimes players
(12:58):
just don't work out.
That's just the way it is.
There's no guarantees, right I?
Or sometimes players just don'twork out.
That's just the way it is.
There are no guarantees.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Right.
I mean, even in the draftyou're talking about an
18-year-old or a 21-year-old andyou don't know necessarily
what's going to happen.
You try to do all the workpossible to mitigate that risk,
but it's so subjective, evenwhen you're doing it with all
(13:28):
the tools that you're given.
You know, and I'm a firmbeliever, that every team needs
to have some combination of theold fashioned scouting with your
eyes and all the data andanalytics that are at their
fingertips.
Now, if you leave one out ofthe door and one out of the door
and only focusing on the oneside in either direction, you're
(13:51):
not getting the fullest picturepossible.
You have a whole toolbox.
Use all the tools.
So I think, because it's sohard to get it right and then
forget about the internationalguys.
Oh boy, o'neal Cruz was sixfeet tall when he first signed.
Yeah.
So you just don't know how it'sgoing to go, even from a
(14:13):
physical maturation point.
But the reason why I talk aboutit you may have data and
analytics that say, boy, thisguy really knows how to play.
The numbers in college areunbelievable.
But if you're not watching howit goes about it, if you don't
go and visit in the home, if youdon't get a sense of what makes
them tick, you don't knowwhat's going to happen when
they're away from, either awayfrom home, if they're high
(14:34):
schoolers, or away from thatfriendly environment of college
and riding the buses for hoursin the low levels of the minors
for 140 games.
You never know until they go doit.
But the more you can know youpeek under the hood, so to speak
the better sense you're goingto get on that sort of makeup
piece.
And if you're ignoring theold-fashioned scouting and
(14:57):
evaluation, you may miss that.
And, conversely, if you ignorethe analytics and data and
you're doing it based on like oh, I really like that swing, like
there's so much information outthere now, especially from a
hitting standpoint, but also onthe mound, that you need to
enter that into your calculus toto try to mitigate that risk.
So you hope to get it right.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
That.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
that's that's there now, even at the high school
levels, the available yeah, Imean not like not nationally,
but there's so much more interms of showcases, travel teams
, like high level travel teams.
So not only are you gettingdata, but you're getting it
against good competition.
Um, you know, usa baseball nowdoes this national high school
(15:40):
invitational and that's a teamtournament and it's it depends
on where the teams are from.
But then you get to see the topdraft prospects in a team
setting, as opposed to ashowcase where sometimes you may
get a guy who look is what theylook like and great BP, great
infield outfit, but doesn't havethe feel for the game.
To see them in a in a team gamesetting where you're trying to
(16:02):
win a game, as opposed to, youknow, an all American game where
it's a one and done and you'rereally just trying to showcase
your own abilities.
So there's a lot moreinformation.
It's not as prevalent as it isin college, but there's a good
amount out there.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
So about 25 years of watching this at the amateur
level, looking at high schoolplayers, college players, what
do you think has been thebiggest, aside from analytics?
The game and the player?
What's changed?
Or is it pretty much the samethat you've noticed over time?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Well, I mean, one of the fascinating things about
baseball for me is that the gameis the same.
Yeah, I just think the playerseveryone's just so much bigger,
stronger and faster.
You see it, when they get tothe big leagues.
Yeah, the fact that someonelike Paul Skeens can come and
just step right in and you know,and that happens.
(16:58):
That's happened for years andyears where someone you know and
maybe he's an outlier, yeah,but I see more and more, even
guys in high school who looklike big leaguers, and I don't
mean like physically maxed outand they can't.
You know, there's stillprojection and they can get
bigger and stronger.
But because it's become ayear-round thing, then you could
argue the pros and cons of that, but because of that, I just
(17:22):
think that you get players whohave a much more advanced feel
and can sort of hit the groundrunning, which is probably a
good thing, since those lowershort season levels in the minor
leagues don't exist anymore.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Well, so we've heard the argument that the players
aren't as athletic, maybe, asthey used to be.
They don't to your point.
They don't play all the sportslike they used to.
So many baseball people haveencouraged players to play all
the sports.
They don't do that.
It's a year-round thing, butthat doesn't mean the players
(17:58):
are worse because of it.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
It's hard to know, right?
I think it's like with anyargument when you're trying to
compare players acrossgenerations.
How do you compare Shohei otanito willie mays?
I don't know how you do that,can you, you know?
uh, statistically is really theonly way you can do it now I
think in every generation thereare those players that you get
(18:23):
the sense they would beincredible, no matter where they
were.
You know, willie Mays, with thestrength and conditioning
advancements that we've seen now, my goodness right, it's crazy.
So I do think it's a shame thatthere are fewer multi-sport
athletes who end up in baseball.
(18:44):
I know that's somethingbaseball's tried to address, but
you can't.
You can't force it.
They have to want to play thesport.
But I always appreciate when Italk to scouting directors and
GMs who kind of covet and valuethose multi-sport guys, even if
(19:04):
it means that it may take them alittle bit longer in the minors
to get to the big leagues andthis is a success-oriented
business.
So that can take some courage.
But I appreciate the teams thatwant to look at players like
that.
The Pirates and Bubba Chandler,I think, is a really good
example where they're like we'rebetting on this athlete and
(19:28):
once we focus him in he's goingto take off.
And they were right in thiscase.
It seems Pirate fans are goingto find out this year but it
doesn't always work out.
But I think I'd rather be wrongon that guy than the safer bet.
But I'm also not the onewriting the checks to them.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
So it's easy for me to say by the way, because you
live in Pittsburgh, and you, howdid you end up coming to
Pittsburgh, by the way, in 2001,?
My wife is a Taylor Aldericehigh school grad, that there's
the answer there.
There we have it.
Yeah, she grew up here.
Well so, but you grew up aYankee or Mets fan.
Yes, really.
Yeah, equally it depended, sowho was winning?
(20:09):
The yankees?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
well so.
So when I first came intobaseball consciousness, it was
when the yankees wonback-to-back world series in the
late 70s and I always kind ofliked both of them.
But honestly, it was when darylstrawberry got called up, and I
always bring this up becausethey were still terrible.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
It wasn't when they got good, okay, they got good.
The next year Fair.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Because Gooden came up the year after that but I'd
never seen.
I didn't remember ReggieJackson enough for me to think,
oh, like that guy, that you needto stop and watch every at-bat.
And then, when Strawberry cameup, you wanted to watch every at
bat because you didn't knowwhat was going to happen.
(20:51):
It was such a majestic swingand he could do things you'd
never seen before.
So that's when I sort ofshifted.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
So I like both teams.
Well, when you watch O'NealCruz, you must think here's a
guy that looks like he.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
You want to stop and watch.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Right, yeah, he's one of those rare players.
You've got to stop and watchthis guy.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Not just when he's in the batter's box Anytime,
especially because he's stillfiguring it out.
It's sort of fascinatingbecause you'll see him one time
and it looks like it's the firsttime he's held a baseball.
He looks lost.
I saw him in the Fall Leaguewhen he played and he was tired
and he was just like you knowand it showed and it was like
(21:34):
wow, I don't know about you know.
And then there are times wherehe's the most electric player in
baseball, or at least on thatshort list Do you it's hard not
to because you live here.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Kind of rude for the Pirates then I would think even
though you grew up a Yankee Metsfan, you don't want to say that
.
I can say that I mean, yeah,sure, I'm not kidding.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Naturally, of course, I root for the Pirates.
I haven't rooted for a teamlike really rooted for a team
since I was a kid.
(22:18):
Sometimes it's an occupationalhazard.
Yeah, you know the businessthat we're in.
When you find a player who'sgood at talking, that matters
more, and I know the rest of themedia would talk to him more.
So when, when Michael A Taylorgot here and I knew Michael back
from when he was a prospect,he's so great to talk to and I'm
like, and he's had a good bigleague career Don't get me wrong
.
There are guys that I've talkedto who never really made it.
(22:40):
I'm like, oh, that at playingbecause they were so great to
talk to.
And so my list of like myfavorite all-time players are
all like guys who are reallygreat interviews.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
So it's a little skewed and any couple that come
to mind, one or two, even ifthey didn't make it.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, or is there something that you're doing Well
?
So there are a few.
There are a few Like TaylorTrammell, one of my favorite
interviews of all time.
I think it was his first fullyear, he was still with the Reds
and we would do an interview inevery spring training stop.
So I did the interview and thenwe sat and talked for another
45 minutes to the point where Iwas kind of like, don't you have
(23:21):
to do something?
And he was done for the day.
It was early.
It was before games and thingslike that he was like no, I'm
good he was 19.
Maybe he was 20.
And to this day I mean Ihaven't run, unfortunately.
I haven't run into him.
So he's pretty high up there.
Malik Smith, I don't know ifyou remember him.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Oh yeah, I remember him Tremendous talker Brett
Phillips.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
So everyone knows his personality now, so everyone
knows his personality.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
He's legit.
The other two, jonathan.
Some guys aren't necessarilylegit.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Some guys do it to do it for the show or for the good
write-up.
The beautiful thing, greg, isthat when I talk to them, no one
knows who they are, so they'renot.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah, you know from the ground.
I know You're not putting on anair.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I think I'm getting a sense of who they are, and of
who they are, and I'm nottypically doing it in front of a
camera.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
It's, you know it's audio.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah, um, but so Brett Phillips and I did.
I remember why once did a likea podcast.
We did an entire episode and wejust sat in the dugout and we
talked for an hour.
It was crazy and uh, so he.
So he's great.
There's, there's, there's a fewmore.
I think the probably myfavorite of the guys who really
really made it is JulioRodriguez.
(24:29):
Oh wow, and he obviously and Iknew it was coming, but he was
so great to talk to in English.
From a very early age.
That's when I knew I'm likethis is a special kid who
understood that that was animportant piece.
And he's the one I kind of hint, hinted at him, who thanked me
(24:50):
for being the first person toever write anything about him,
and that really hit me becausehe's I mean, he's as big as
there is and I like I hope hehas a full healthy season
because he's so exciting towatch.
So I think I think he's the one,but I mean the list goes on and
on.
I mean I talked to AndrewMcCutcheon when he was 19 for
the first time.
So he recorded a video for myson's bar mitzvah montage.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Oh my gosh.
So, yeah, when would that havebeen?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
So he's 23 now.
He's coming in 24 for 11 yearsago.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
So he was established in the big leagues?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Oh, he was established in the big leagues,
but I felt I could ask him yeah,Because I also knew that he
could be like no, and then I'dbe fine with it.
And then, of course, I had toget him to do one for my
daughter because I didn't wanther to be a.
She's not as big of a.
She's a baseball fan, but notas much as my son, who played.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
She's a big McCutcheon fan now, oh,
absolutely, what about Jonathan,in terms of?
Okay, so you're going around,you're talking to different
people, you've got maybesomebody under the radar that
you think you've got a hunchabout this guy?
Is there somebody?
Over the years that you hit,you made it?
(26:09):
You know what man you can patyourself on the back, even
though that's not necessarilywhat you normally do.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
There really aren't that many surprises maybe no,
there are always surprises.
You're counting on myinstitutional memory, which is
awful.
So I'm sure there are guys whoand sometimes it's we don't rank
them too high because we don'tget that kind of feedback.
But I'm kind of like that guyis kind of interesting.
I'm not sure what he's going tobe, but I have a feeling he's
(26:40):
going to be pretty good, and Ican't think of one right now.
Well, you may even track ityourself.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
You may not come out boldly and say something based
on the.
You may track it yourself.
You may not come out boldly andsay something based on the, you
may track it yourself.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
No, because, like I said, because that's what I do.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
A lot of times I'm a sport training.
I go to the Pirate City, yeah,and these guys are coming up.
I'll watch some games and I'mthinking to myself who is that
guy?
And keep so.
Who's on the top of?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
your list.
Well, it's not that, I'm afraidto toot my own horn because I
will, but I just can't think ofsomebody who I was like.
Oh, and sometimes it's guys whoend up being like a utility guy
.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, that's one thing.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I'll give you an example, and I can't even take
credit for them because I wasn'teven necessarily doing their
list at the time.
I don't remember, but Iremember I saw Tommy Edmund play
.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Oh, that's a good one .
Speaker 2 (27:30):
In State College.
Wow I did like over the years Iwould do a couple of broadcasts
for, like the I forget theaffiliate out there Central PA.
They would do some StateCollege Spikes games and I saw
it was his summer debut.
I think he went five for fiveso it was easy to be like huh
(27:51):
and to me I remember thinkinglike he is the quintessential
Cardinals prospect, where he'snever going to rank super high.
He doesn't have like the wowtools but I'm like he's going to
be a better big leaguer than heis a prospect and the Cardinals
are good at that.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
And they got another one coming, Thomas Segese.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Who's kind of an under-the-radar rookie of the
year candidate to keep an eye on, because I think he's got a
chance to play.
But they're really good atfinding those guys and the way
they teach it.
But this was his first summerso I'm like all right, he can
run a little bit At.
But this was his first summerso I'm like all right, he can
run a little bit.
At the time I'm like he canplay shortstop.
It wasn't clear whether hewould stick it short, but I was
like he's going to be a bigleaguer and not a lot of people.
(28:35):
You know he was, I think, asixth rounder.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
It wasn't like a, you know, I mean the book that you
referenced and lucky and lucky.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yep, yeah, talking about guys like uh, albert pools
yeah, joey vato, yeah, uh, guyswho were I mean, vato was a
second rounder, but it still wasnot too many people had that
high degrom, mookie betts, yeah,lorenzo kane, um, guys like
that.
So I love stories like likethis and uh, you know I missed
the uh, some of those werebefore my time ranking guys and
some of them we like we missedon.
(29:14):
You know, jacob DeGrom came sofast.
They were like what happened?
Yeah, yeah Cause you know he hadTommy John surgery right away
and and then you know he he shotthrough with Mookie Betts, was
a guy that we almost didn't havetime to rank appropriately
because he had one huge year.
There's a guy in the Red Soxsystem now, christian Campbell,
who is kind of Mookie Betts 2.0.
Fourth round pick, probably asecond baseman, but you're not
(29:37):
sure, and first full year wentfrom high A to triple A.
He may be their opening daysecond baseman and he was not on
the Red Sox top 30 to start the2024 season and without I'm not
looking at it right now I thinkhe's number eight on the top
100 overall list right now.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
That is crazy, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there are guys like that allthe time.
I love guys.
So for me again, not pattingmyself on the back by any
stretch, but thinking about guysthat just came to the
organization you're watchingearly One that comes to mind was
like Josh Harrison.
When that trade was made withthe Cubs he was like an
afterthought Right, and they'llnever say that these teams, I
(30:15):
understand it.
The other trade was like forAscanio, a pitcher, a couple
other pitchers, and then therewas Josh Harrison with the Cub
deal.
But he's like the little enginethat could and the heart, the
drive, the desire, and then endsup becoming an everyday player
at some position.
And Adam Frazier was anotherguy who they kind of talked down
(30:36):
about when he got to and thenthey started playing him out in
left field different positions.
I thought, well, what if youput him maybe at second base,
stuck him there every day, justsee what happens.
Because I don't think werealize, fans, how difficult it
is to succeed when you first getto the big leagues at anything,
but then to be asked to startbouncing around different
positions.
Well, the issues.
(30:56):
I haven't done it well, right.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, that's the guys who have done it.
And then I think nowadays a lotof systems they encourage
encourage guys around.
Well, I think you have tobecause, I mean, my favorite
about that was Trevor Story whenhe was coming up with the
Rockies and the Rockies wereearly on a team that would have
guys play all three infieldpositions and the funny thing
(31:19):
about Trevor Story is they'relike well, you don't know if
he's going to be a shortstop,but we're going to.
You know, we want him to keephis athleticism.
He's going to play short, wewant him to have all three
because we think the bat's goingto play and you want to make
sure that if the bat's ready, wehave options right to plug them
in.
Now it happened that it wasright when Tulo got hurt and
(31:40):
then was gone, you know, and heended up playing shortstop and
ended up being a bettershortstop than people expected.
But you know, I think if youteach it early, there are some
guys who like moving around.
They like this sort ofespecially.
You know, some of them are likeI like not knowing where I'm
going to be.
It keeps them out of their head.
Other people are like I don'tmind moving around, but I'd like
to know ahead of time where I'mgoing to be.
(32:02):
So I think it's like knowingthe personalities of players
helps.
But yeah, having a guy whohadn't moved around and then
suddenly you're like, hey, weneed you to move around, that's
a trickier.
I think you start to do that alot more.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
like you said.
Certainly the Pirates do that.
They love bouncing guys.
The other argument is when youtry to bounce guys around, then
they never have a position.
There's never really a setlineup and I understand both
arguments.
You talk about watching guysand great stories and talk about
(32:38):
analytics and needing scouting,and both numbers and they have
to converge.
You can't have one without theother these days.
Age-old question now last fewyears is it a really fine
balance where analytics, youdon't want it to be too
pervasive in the game, right?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
No, you don't want it to take over.
We don't want it to become likethe baseball version of
Terminator, where the machinesrun everything yeah yeah,
because it's still human beingsplaying the sport and not only
knowing, like to the point Imade earlier, what makes them
tick in terms of handlingadversity, things like that, and
(33:20):
you never can be sure untilthey go out and do it, even if
you scout them really well.
But how they react to baseballsituations right, they're not.
They're not not board gamepieces or video game animations
that someone else is controlling.
They still need to go and knowwhere to be on a on a cutoff
(33:40):
play in deep right field whenthere's a play at third, and
those things that are so uniqueto baseball that you can't just
use numbers to predict what'sgoing to happen.
I think that all of the data isgood.
I just think that if you leantoo heavily in that direction,
(34:06):
it's not great and I'll get on asoapbox that my colleague, jim
Callison I get on all the time,for instance, is every team has
a model for the draft andthey'll plug a player in and
there's all these variables thatthey'll use to say, well,
whether we should value this guy, and age is a big indicator.
So if you have a kid who'salready 19 come draft time,
(34:31):
there are teams that won'tconsider that player full stop
and certainly not in the firstround, and I always wondered
about that.
Because that same player and Iunderstand it, because they're a
little older, depending onwhere they are playing high
school the competition there's abig difference between 19 and
18.
They'll be draft-eligiblesophomores in two years and
(34:54):
teams salivate over that guy.
Now you have two years ofcollege data, so I understand
the data reason, but I'm likeboy, that's a.
Brett Beatty is a big example,the one I always I kind of
always think of and juries outin terms of what kind of big
leaguer is going to be.
But this is a guy that therewere teams that were like we
won't, we won't even considerhim.
In the first round, the Metstook him 13th overall.
Whatever it was, he was in thebig leagues at age 22.
(35:16):
That's young for the levelright.
So I think that you can go sortof too full on and the teams
that like only believe in themodel and won't say like, use
the model, it's fine, andthey're always constantly
tweaking it as a guideline.
Use it as a like with any ofthese things.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Use it as one of those tools, yes, and if all
things are being equal, andplayer A the model likes and
player B the model doesn't like,sure, take player A, but to
completely cast off player Bbecause he might be a little too
old, like I think you owe it toyourself, well, let's dig in a
little bit more.
What are the swing that we like?
(35:55):
Where was he playing?
I mean, brett Beatty was aTexas high schooler.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
He wasn't playing in Michigan with all due respect to
Michigan, but the baseball'sdifferent.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I think that you can get a little short-sighted
because of all the data, so aslong as you don't get blinded by
it, it can be extremelyvaluable because it is a
predictor.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
So the game's okay in that respect.
Right now Do you think too muchis made about people griping
about numbers and stats andanalytics?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
I think when it becomes a problem, or when teams
decide that they don't need asmany scouts or even instructors
because we can get all the dataand figure out what's going on,
and that that seems to be acyclical thing, greg.
So I, I don't know that it's aproblem that's so embedded that
(36:52):
we they can't come back from it.
It swings back and forth and so, like this offseason,
unfortunately, was one of theswings where a lot of teams got
rid of a lot of people.
Yeah, and I always think that'sa shame and it's short-sighted.
And then eventually they'llrealize oh wait, you know, we
haven't been like.
Our farm system's not doingwell, we're not getting guys to
the big leagues, and thenthey'll that's a great comeback.
(37:14):
Then we'll rehire all that.
We'll rehire those people.
Someone who's been in the gamelonger than me and who's smarter
than me and that sort of thingsaid he goes it always the
pendulum always shifts back andforth.
Now maybe the, the reins thatthe pendulum swings in is a
little bit different, yeah, soit's a little shifted more in
that sort of data direction.
I think it's okay, as long asteams don't completely lose
(37:36):
sight of the importance of stillneed those eyes on the game,
right eyes on the game and thatit's human beings playing it.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Hey, what did you enjoy more?
Writing a book or producing afilm?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Ah, well, the, the writing the book and so
producing the film.
I got a producer credit becauseit was my basic idea, but you
were involved.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Oh, I was already involved and they were silly
enough to put me in it.
You deserve it.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Well, no, I earned.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
The producer credit, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Yeah, but I mean that was so much fun.
That was not one of thosethings I had on my bucket list
Writing a book kind of was as awriter was not one of those
things I had on my bucket list.
Writing a book kind of was.
As a writer, I've now writtentwo over the course of 15 years.
My other one was in 2008, butuh that one was what uh, it was
called facing clements, it was a, that's right, it was a book.
(38:33):
That wasn't my idea, like thateditor came to me with it.
But each chapter was talking tohitters about the challenge of
facing roger clements, so it wasfun.
But this smart, wrong and luckywas my idea, so it was my baby.
So I had a little more investedin the film was my idea, but
I'm not a filmmaker.
I have a friend who now.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
The film, by the way, is about team Israel in the
world baseball classic, the 2017world baseball classic and the,
the.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
The concept of that was kind of like, because I'm
Jewish and I'm always fascinatedwith who the Jewish players are
.
I'm like, well, let's dig into.
Like these players who are like, yes, I'm happy to be known, I
embrace being known as a Jewishbaseball player and the Jewish
community, painting with a broadbrush like loves baseball and
(39:19):
loves who the Jewish baseballplayers are, and they kind of
take them in as family.
So I'm like, well, let's dig in.
What do these players thinkabout it?
And a lot of them aren'treligious or anything like that.
So let's take them to israel.
Well, what a better way, let'slet them dig in.
And we thought that was gonnabe the whole thing and we're
gonna go to the world baseballclassic and the climactic scene
will be the first pitch.
Look, they made it there, yeah,and then they won games and
(39:41):
then it turned into a Cinderellastory.
That is so great and as myfriend the filmmaker said is
they went from a short film to afull-length documentary because
of all that and my friend,who's the filmmaker I've known
since you know we were 15, 14.
And we went to Jewish sleepawaycamp together.
So that came together and waskind of crazy confluence of
(40:02):
events and it was a blast.
So the idea was mine, I did alot of the talking to the
players and I'm in it and thingslike that.
But the book is really like myso I probably feel a little more
connected.
Well, I don't feel moreconnected to it, but it was more
my thing.
The the film, just as my likemy Jewish self and my baseball
(40:24):
self coming together is notsomething I ever could have
imagined would happen, so it'spretty cool.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
It is fascinating.
I've got some really goodJewish friends and sometimes
I'll, you know, call them ortext them.
I said, you know, I think hemight be a Jewish player and he
said no, he's not or he is.
And I looked at at the.
The pirates have a greathistory and legacy of, of course
, hank greenberg, yeah, uh.
But you think over the years,and they just got the spencer
(40:49):
horowitz.
Spencer horowitz, yeah I say jayhorowitz spencer horowitz, jay,
jay, I got, I got, I got burnedby that.
By the way, I believe that oh Idid too did you?
Speaker 2 (40:59):
yeah, but I went on the air with it in spring
training.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
I went on the air and somebody said you know, that is
not Jay's grandson.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
So Jay Horowitz was a long time he was the PR guy for
the Mets and totally wouldtweet without any wink wink
saying that that's his grandson.
And the thing is like sotypically it's Horowitz,
h-o-r-o-w-i-t-z, but both ofthem spell it Horowitz.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Oh, I didn't even realize that.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
That's what made it kind of believable.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
And I'm like sure why not.
And the funny thing is, sothere's a really good prospect
with the Baltimore Orioles.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Not Jewish, but his name is Kobe Mayo yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
He's another guy who could be a rookie of the year
candidate this year, assuming heplays every day.
I have periodically sort oflike yeah, that's my nephew and
I won't say yes or no if peopleask me directly.
But there have been enoughtimes where I make it clear he's
not really my nephew.
I got a picture with him inspring training a few years ago.
I'm like what family reunion sothere are a few people out there
(42:00):
like is he really?
Because I did have someone likehey, if he's your nephew, does
that mean he could play for teamisrael?
So I'm like, no, he, no, hecannot.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
But thanks for asking that is great, but it is true
about the, the pirates over theyears, about different players
and ike davis, yeah, being beingone who was prominently
featured in your film with thatwe have your home run call in
the movie I'm actually gonnahave to ask spencer, we should
bring uh back uh the muzzle tub.
Yeah, I have to do that, but uh,it it's.
(42:31):
I asked you before about you'rerooting for the pirates and how
you, when you're in town youlive here you kind of have to
essentially become a fan of,certainly a fan of the city and
the team.
We always ask Jonathan,withhold my cutter.
What brings all of thistogether is the stories of how
people got to where they, thepassion people have now that
(42:54):
you're a Pittsburgher, and whatmakes Pittsburgh unique, whether
it's sports or anything else.
Do you have a thought aboutthat, and is it unique in your
mind?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
I think it is unique.
I've never seen anything likeit, for a whole host of reasons
and I'll tell a few stories.
So, from a sports standpoint,the ballpark down the road from
where we are right now, andyou've been around baseball.
If you want to argue, there areothers that are maybe as good.
Okay, there isn't one better,there isn't one better, and
(43:27):
maybe I know we're biased and Iknow the press box is 4 million
miles up in the sky, but boy,what a view.
So that's part of it and thelove of sports in general.
You know, for a city that's notNew York, you know it's a
smaller city, I think the, thepeople are genuine.
(43:51):
That's not unique, that's notthe only place, but it's not.
The thing that's kind ofinteresting about Pittsburgh to
me is like it's not East coast,it's not Midwest, I don't know
what it is.
I don't know what you call it,it's its own thing, but probably
I mean honestly I think thebiggest thing is the accent and
I remember my wife, you know,who grew up here and she does a
(44:12):
fantastic Pittsburgh accent Doesshe?
She doesn't when she talksnormally and she would do it.
And I always thought like oh,it's a little bit of a
caricature.
And I remember one of the timeswe were visiting cause her
parents were lifelongPittsburghers I think third or
fourth generation.
And uh, and we were in thestrip district and we're just
(44:33):
walking them and somebody walksin and sounded exactly like my
wife's imitation and I stoppeddead in my tracks I was like you
gotta be kidding me.
So I did make her promise thatif we moved here our kids would
not speak that way.
But I love it.
I mean, it's one of thosethings that you hear it.
And even my mom was a lifelongNew Yorker and then in New
(44:54):
Jersey and she retired.
She moved here 20 plus yearsago Once she retired to be close
to her grandkids.
She will be someplace else andshe'll hear the accent.
She's like are you frompittsburgh?
And people will be like how doyou know?
Speaker 1 (45:04):
we're like really, are you serious you?
Speaker 2 (45:07):
know I love it.
I mean, I mean, where elsewould myron cope be, someone
people would want to listen to?
And yet when we would come tovisit and we would put on
steelers games and myfather-in-law, who was a huge
Steelers fan, would turn the TVvolume down and turn the radio
up.
And the first time I listenedto it I'm like why are we doing
this?
And then you have to listen,you had to, right, couldn't help
(45:30):
it, right.
So I, I think you know, I'm sureevery city has those characters
, those, uh, the, those accents,both in terms of language and
just what makes the, the hillsand and things like the
topography here, so interesting.
It's just, it's a reallyinteresting place that I had
(45:53):
never been to before I met mywife, so it wasn't like one of
these places I had been to.
I'm like, oh sure, we'll go toPittsburgh, my wife, so it
wasn't like one of these placesI had been to.
I'm like, oh sure, we'll go toPittsburgh.
And obviously we visited abunch before we moved here, but
I didn't know anything about,like, a lot of people not from
Pittsburgh.
My knowledge of Pittsburgh was,you know, the 70s Steelers.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
And Footloose.
I'm not Footloose.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Well, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
No no.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Footloose was here, wasn't?
Speaker 2 (46:19):
it.
No, no, footloose was here,wasn't it?
Footloose is a Kevin Baconmovie.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Oh, boy Leonard Lee.
Can you help us out with themovie?
Speaker 2 (46:28):
no, no she's in the steel mill and she gets the
dancing audition.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
That's not Footloose that's not Footloose.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Footloose is Kevin Bacon and John Lithgow's the
Reverend.
This is terrible.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
I know I can't believe it.
I'll be so mad.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
I know the song I'm a maniac, maniac.
I can sing all the songs fromit.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Flash dance.
Thank you, Leonard Lee.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
I apologize to the people of Pittsburgh and to the
filmmakers that made thatclassic, I think there was this
image of the steel town andthings like that, and that was
all I knew about Pittsburgh.
Maybe the Fish to SavePittsburgh?
Speaker 1 (47:13):
I probably saw that movie.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
But I really didn't know much about it at all.
I mean, I remember the piratesand the Stargill stars and
things like that when I was akid, but I'd never been here.
So I love it here.
I raised a family here and mykids are kind of grown, but
we're still here and notplanning on going anywhere
(47:38):
anytime soon, Isn't it?
Speaker 1 (47:38):
interesting.
I don't know if you've had thisexperience where you have
people who may have not visitedPittsburgh recently out-of-town
friends, family, whatnot andthey come to Pittsburgh Fans
have talked about this beforethey come and PNC Park's been a
destination and I sometimes willbring up clients or fans up
into the booth to show them.
And I never knew what a greatcity this was.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Had this, this idea, the old smoky city, right steel
I mean, it's even in the timethat we've been here and I'll,
you know, be honest, when, whenwe first moved here, we we had
been in in new york, we lived inbrooklyn, where you fall out of
bed and there are 400restaurants, and when we first
came here, we're like, what didwe do?
Yeah, uh, because it was.
You know, I won't say it wassleepy in 2001, it had 2001.
(48:20):
It wasn't the old sooty steelcity that my mother-in-law would
talk about, but it was not thescene that it is now and it's
changed so much, mostly for thegood.
Anytime there's developmentlike that, you worry about it
(48:40):
but seeing it evolve over time.
But it's such a manageableplace to be and I love.
My kids were able to grow uphere and we live in the city.
So it's interesting.
I'd never been in a place whereyou have neighborhoods, where
(49:01):
you have a house and a yard, butyou're actually in the city.
I grew up in suburban NewJersey so my idea of city was
New York.
Then I went to college in WestPhiladelphia.
Philadelphia is a city city.
To get that neighborhood-y feelyou had to go out to the
suburbs.
You can have all of it here.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
It's been great, it's great.
And one of my favorite thingsabout the city of Pittsburgh is
that a guy that's become ayinzer, he calls himself a.
He combines y'all and yinzerwith these y'alls.
It's Michael McHenry.
We'll toast to him.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
We will.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
And we'll look forward to having him back on
his show one of these days.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
by the way, I hope so , didn't he?
Speaker 1 (49:44):
encourage you to come on, hold my Cutter.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
He has been talking to me about this.
For how long has this show beengoing?
Speaker 1 (49:49):
on now A good year plus.
Yeah, this is like show number75 already.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
From the get-go.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
So the fact that it took 75 shows to have me on
Michael shame on you, but anywayshame on you, and now I finally
come and he's not here but it'sall good and it made for a
better program.
I got to use his mug, yeah, hismug.
Thank you, jonathan thank you,greg.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
I really enjoyed it see you next time I'll hold my
cutter.
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