January 21, 2025 • 54 mins
Unlock the secrets to effective leadership in today's ever-changing work landscape with insights from Hywel Berry, a seasoned expert in leadership transformation for global brands. You'll discover the strategies to navigate blurred work-life boundaries and build a resilient workplace culture.
Learn how embracing "empathetic cynicism" can foster open communication and collaboration, even when initial resistance is present. We'll discuss the vital role of reliability and consistency in establishing trust and how leaders can remain supportive, especially when team members aren't meeting expectations. Hywel shares invaluable lessons from his work with major corporations, underscoring the significance of authenticity and individualized leadership styles.
Lastly, we delve into the complexities of leadership development and mentorship, emphasizing the necessity of honest communication. Uncover the nuances of guiding team members through both internal promotions and external career opportunities, supporting their growth in a transparent manner. The conversation also touches on adapting to modern workplace challenges, from AI's impact on job security to managing emotional responses to change. By the end, you'll be equipped with the tools to help others navigate transitions with empathy and adaptability, creating a work culture that thrives amidst constant evolution.
This episode emphasizes the importance of leadership dynamics in creating positive workplace cultures and employee engagement including:
• Discusses the impact of leadership on workplace culture
• Shares strategies for overcoming employee resistance
• Highlights the importance of empathy in leadership
• Offers tips for managing remote teams effectively
• Explores the role of leaders in employee development and engagement
• Addresses navigating change within organizations
• Encourages leaders to be authentic in their leadership style
Connect with Hywel:
https://www.hywelberry.com
hywel@alicornlearning.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, friend, welcome to Holly's Highlights, a podcast
designed to encourage, inspireand equip you to intentionally
live your life full of purpose.
I'm your host, holly Kirby,motivational speaker, leadership
cultivator, marketingstrategist and personal
cheerleader.
Let's check out today'shighlights.
With a new year brings newopportunities.
(00:24):
That's right.
This is where I could use yourhelp, my friends.
Would you please take a momentto do one or all of the
following in hopes of helping mereach some goals this new year?
First, subscribe to this verypodcast, holly's Highlights
Podcast.
Even write and review thepodcast where you're able, such
as Apple Podcasts, and, ofcourse, share with friends,
family, coworkers or eventhrough a post or shout out on
(00:45):
your own platforms.
Second, join my monthly emailHolly's happenings by visiting
wwwhollykirbycom.
Third, follow me on Facebook atHolly's highlights, and or on
Instagram at Holly Kirby.
And lastly, rate and review mybook facelift on Amazon and, if
you have time, on Target,walmart and Barnes Noble
(01:06):
websites.
I can't thank you enough foryour support and encouragement
in such ways.
Happy New Year's, my friends.
The other day, I was at my localgrocery store when the manager
came over and said some verykind compliments as she walked
away.
I mentioned to the groceryclerk that I really enjoy my
interactions with this manager.
The clerk proceeded to tellingme that this manager was fairly
(01:29):
new due to a manager who hadcome in prior to her.
Well, she, long story short,had a huge turnover of staff who
wasn't too fond of thisprevious manager.
Well, in training anddeveloping leaders for over 20
years, I fully believe a leader,manager, whatever you want to
call them, makes or breaks notonly the culture of an
organization, but can actuallyimpact performance and retention
(01:53):
and even the reputation of anorganization.
As the saying goes, peopledon't leave jobs, they leave
managers or leaders.
So today we have with us anexpert specializing in
transforming leadership and teamdynamics for global brands like
Nike, coca-cola and TiffanyCompany Howell Berry.
His mission is to createadult-centered, real-world
(02:14):
learning experiences that winover even the most reluctant
participants.
Welcome, howell.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Hello Holly, how are you?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
It's an absolute joy.
Thank you for having me here.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Oh, our pleasure Now.
According to research byGettysburg College, one third of
our life is spent at work, soit's understandable that,
whether it be a new manager or acurrent manager, bosses of any
title can really impact the workenvironment.
So perhaps we can start at whatmany may encounter throughout
their life, whether as a leaderor as an employee.
(02:48):
What are some reasons thatpeople are resistant to their
leaders?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Thank you.
It's an interesting questionfor all of us because actually,
let's be honest, holly, in thelast few years since COVID, it's
probably more than a third,isn't it we are now engaged in
work in some way.
That separation of work andhome for many of us changed over
that time.
So the effect that our leaderhas on us, yeah, is even greater
, and you mentioned it.
(03:14):
But of course, what all thestudies show is, yeah, people
stay at jobs for leaders andthey leave jobs because of
leaders, and sometimes you cantangibly say why.
But sometimes it's verydifficult for both sides to
express what the problem is.
It's not always like they're anightmare leader that everybody
(03:37):
doesn't get on with.
So actually it's verychallenging on both sides.
As an employee, you think maybethere's something wrong with
you if other people find theleader positive.
And as a leader, having beenthere myself, it's incredibly
difficult when you can't winover a team member.
You hired them, you want to bea positive impact on their life
(04:01):
and yet, for whatever reason, itjust doesn't click on their
life.
And yet, for whatever reason,it just doesn't click.
So my numbers, holly, don'tknow what yours are, but over
the time of my main corporatelife.
I hired about 60 people.
Of that 60, I would say 40 ofthem had a genuinely positive
experience with me as theirmanager.
(04:22):
I would say 15 had an okayexperience.
They didn't hate me, it didn'taffect their life negatively,
but they could have changedmanagers and it wouldn't have
been a great heave-ho.
And five honestly just didn'tlike working for me and I don't
think their life was a horriblenightmare.
But for whatever reason we justdidn't click and I tried as
(04:47):
hard as I could and sometimes Ichanged the relationship a bit,
but sometimes it just wasn'tgoing to happen.
So you've simply got to makethe best of where we are, which
is we've got a job to do andthat's fine.
We don't have to be bestfriends, but when you feel
you're negatively affectingsomeone at work, it's really
really difficult for you.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, yeah, and to back up slightly of how you were
saying, since COVID we spendmore time at work.
That makes sense.
I feel like it's just mesometimes where I feel like my
life is fully integrated withwork, to where there's not a
nine to five and then you clockout and it's just work.
I feel it truly is my life andmy both personal life and work
life just mesh and I'm notreally sure anymore sometimes
(05:32):
when I'm on and when I'm off foreither one.
So I definitely agree, it'smore than that one third and,
yes, hitting.
I like how you pointed out thepersonalization of how you
connect with some, don't withothers, and we're not going to
be everyone's cup of tea, right.
But as a leader, we can get to apoint where we just kind of
feel like we're banging our headagainst the wall, right, like
(05:54):
we've tried every aspect oftrying to help them, pour into
them intentionally, teach them,grow them, be nice to them,
whatever we can do so forleaders who find themselves
constantly battling resistancefrom team members, how can they
be more effective as a leaderwithout losing their sanity?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Well.
So again, let's be as positiveabout this as we can.
It is a work relationship.
We're not friends, we are notfamily.
We don't have to hang out, wedon't have to get on in that way
.
What we need to provide is anenvironment where we are
creating a space where they cando their job as well as possible
, and if that's happening, thenthose little extras that make it
(06:36):
a joy are nice, but notnecessarily required, but either
for the employee or the leader.
If, for whatever reason, it ischallenging to be the best at
your role, then no, we do havesomething more that we can
deliberately do here.
And this doesn't fall entirelyon the leader, of course, but,
like in a parent-childrelationship, I think you have a
(06:58):
greater responsibility to tryand make this work.
It's not on the child, it's onthe parent.
You chose it.
Let's make it yours.
As the more senior person, Ithink it's your job.
So let's also be honest.
When we don't work well with amanager, we can sometimes
(07:19):
exacerbate it a bit, almostdeliberately, as an employee.
We don't like them, we don'twant to see them succeed, so we
throw little spanners in theworks to cause problems every so
often.
So my very first job, holly, Iwas an actor when I was a kid.
You can find me online and it'svery interesting as an actor,
(07:40):
because you just turn up for twodays, get paid well and then
leave.
That's it.
No one looks after you, nobodycares.
So my first real job was insales for a magazine company and
I loved my first manager.
We had a fantastic relationshipand then they brought in
somebody new and within 20minutes, holly, I just knew we
were not going to work welltogether and looking back now, I
(08:02):
did everything I could to tryand make sure that that was
absolutely true.
I wanted to fulfill my theoryin my head, as it were, and he
didn't do very much to fix it.
But what could he have donemore?
One of the things I'm going tothrow out is a theory I love for
leaders, which is be your owncynic.
(08:23):
Try and see this from theemployee's point of view.
What's the most negative,worrisome, fearsome thing that
they could be thinking?
Because what we think, ofcourse, is I'm a lovely leader
and I care and I'm good at this.
Why can't they see that?
But actually, let's try and seeit from their side.
Maybe they did have a greatrelationship with their old
(08:43):
leader.
Maybe they have challengesoutside.
Maybe they did have a greatrelationship with their old
leader.
Maybe they have challengesoutside.
Maybe they were not performingas well as they want to already
and this is just making itdifficult.
So, sitting down with each ofyour employees but definitely
someone who there's a bit of achallenge there and voicing
yourself that you can see whatthey might be worried about, I
(09:03):
can see with a new leader thismight be a challenge, or we are
quite different people.
I can see that the way I workmight be more difficult for you.
Saying it out loud means A thatthe other person can see that
you are not blind to theirchallenges.
You do understand them a littlebit.
But also it just makes it moreharder to be cynical.
(09:25):
If you're saying what I'mthinking, I can't really use it
as a weapon against you.
All I can really think is yes,that is what I'm feeling.
I still don't like you verymuch, but you do seem to
understand where I'm coming from.
So you've taken away a lot ofthat clash, whereas if you just
keep speaking to them likethey're missing something, if
(09:46):
you just got on board,everything would be fantastic.
What's your problem?
You're giving that employeeeverything they need to just go.
This person doesn't get me.
It's going to fail.
I knew it was, and then we canwatch it fail deliberately.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Those are good.
Those are good, and it soundslike those can be the biggest
mistakes that leaders tend tomake when navigating the
challenges that you werementioning of leading a team.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I think so Because when you come in as a leader
let's say we come in externallyor even promoted from a
different group you've got somuch pressure on you as a leader
.
You want to make a goodimpression, you want to get
things up and running veryquickly, you want everyone on
the team to see the positives inyou and we don't wake up in the
morning thinking let's list outall the things people will hate
(10:34):
about me today.
That's not how our brains work.
So it's genuinely surprising tous when somebody doesn't like
us or doesn't seem to work wellfor us or finds our leadership
challenging.
For most of us we're justflummoxed as to why.
What's the problem here?
But if we be our own cynic, wecan get that person talking, and
(10:55):
what I'd really encourage themis to speak to that person and
give them space to open up andsay how they're feeling.
Now, no one ever tells theirleader the complete truth,
especially not a brand newleader where you can tell
there's a little bit of friction.
But if they give you anythingthat is truthful, useful,
something you can work on, thefirst words out of your mouth
(11:16):
should be thank you very muchfor that feedback, or thank you
very much for letting me know.
Even if you completely disagreeor you think that person's just
making this up, they've beenhonest with you.
That is the major step towardsus being able to overcome this
challenge, so you can come backthe next day and say, look, I've
(11:38):
thought about it.
I'm not going to change whatI'm doing, but I appreciate
where you're coming from.
Let me see how I can work withyou.
You don't have to take theirfeedback on board to change it,
but you have to seem like yougenuinely take it seriously.
So thank you very much.
I see where you're at.
Let's see what compromises wecan make, and in other areas
(11:59):
this is just required.
So let's work out how you cando it best or how it works best
for you.
But it's a process of what Icall empathetic cynicism, which
is, I'm empathetic to yoursituation.
I'm also going to allow mycynicism to come out, but
between the two of us we canfind a real place.
But I think sometimes leadersworry about being negative or
(12:23):
cynical, so they just put anoptimistic face on it.
Everything's wonderful,everything will be great.
If you just listen to me, ifyou are cynical, blind optimism
is not going to win you over atall.
You have to have somethinguseful to go.
I can buy into that.
Still don't really see thispart of them, but that piece I
agree with them.
Let's try and make that happen.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
That's a great pivot, great pivot.
So anything else in addition tothat initial step that can help
leaders build that trust andsupport and even rapport with
their employees.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, absolutely I get.
Look in a modern world.
I think what's interesting,holly, is the number of
different situations we havewith our teams nowadays.
In my corporate days, Iprimarily did just sit three
feet away from them, so therewas a whole day of little
interactive moments.
Even if we annoyed each otherat 10 o'clock, we'd probably
(13:17):
have fun at three o'clock in theafternoon.
But in a hybrid world or acompletely remote world, that's
very different.
I think you have to be muchmore deliberate about the
interactions that you have.
So there is a science piece.
If you've ever read the book theTrusted Advisor, holly, it is a
wonderful, wonderful book byMeister, green and Galford and
what they argue, the three bigthings we do that build trust
(13:39):
are credibility, so being anexpert of something, being able
to give this person somethinguseful to them and again, let's
be really blunt, some people onthis team that you've just come
in as a leader or taken over orbeing promoted in, maybe wanted
this job themselves.
So there is that naturalfeeling of what exactly can this
(13:59):
person do for me?
I should have been in that role.
So finding something that youcan genuinely offer that helps
them as a person.
So credibility plus reliability, so doing what we say we're
going to do, living up to ourpromises and a big one, I'm
going to say, for leaders comingin, new leaders, whatever this
relationship is but is beingconsistent.
(14:22):
So the reliability here is Iknow who I'm dealing with.
Each day I see the same leader.
We've probably all had one ofthose leaders where the feeling
was like, who's turning up today?
Is it the happy boss, the angryboss, the confused boss, the
boss who just barks orders atpeople?
They've got to know who it isthey're dealing with.
(14:44):
Even if they don't love it, atleast they understand it.
So giving them that consistencyof personality.
And then the last thing isintimacy, and this doesn't mean
sharing details we don't want toshare, but it does mean showing
that you are a human being.
You're a real person too, withreal challenges and a real life.
(15:05):
So one of the interestingthings, holly, I don't know if
you know, but at the start ofCOVID, trust between colleagues
went up substantially becausefor the first time ever, you got
to see people's real lives.
You saw their kitchens andtheir dogs and their kids and
the stuff they collect, and allthese people who had just been
names on email or faces in anoffice were suddenly real people
(15:26):
.
Well, we can emulate that alittle bit.
As a leader, we can be a person, we can share a little bit of
our lives with them, just enoughthat we feel comfortable with.
But whatever, we're not thatdifferent.
I can show you that we justhave slightly different jobs at
(15:48):
the moment, but our lives arevery similar.
So, whatever you feelcomfortable sharing, but
deliberately structuring thosethree, what can I share to help
them with credibility?
Can I give them a consistentpersonality so they know they
can trust a response, and whatcan I share as a human being
just moves those levers a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Oh, those are great.
Those are great.
Now, what about for the leaderwho has continually invested
into a team member, who hasshown that resistance?
Or maybe they've just not.
They've not hit the mark right.
They haven't seen the neededdevelopment or growth in an
employee that they're supposedto reach for, whether it be
their attitude, their lack offollow through on development or
(16:32):
ownership, or just not beingthe right fit, as we talked
about earlier, or even being aculture killer, because those
come in right, they sneak in.
It's like wow, where did youcome from?
How do you handle that?
Like, what might those stepslook like for that leader?
Or even for a team member withanother team member?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
So.
I think any new leader, orlet's just call it a major
change of team, for whatever thereason is, but if team members
change, the team makeup change,there is actually going to be a
cultural change.
Some people would like it tojust continue on the same as it
was.
That is perfectly natural.
They're not bad people.
But if I was successful in theold team, whatever that looked
(17:13):
like, I would just like it tocontinue here.
So that is actually one of theironies of any change within an
office.
Change of leadership isactually it might be your star
people that are most resistantto this change because it worked
for them before.
If I was just about to getfired and you change the team,
what do I care?
Change it up, you can stillfire me, or maybe things will
(17:35):
get better for me.
So it's understanding that, yes, there is a natural resistance
and we shouldn't just expectpeople to get over it within a
matter of hours or days.
That isn't going to happen.
There is going to be atransition period here.
So change curves, which comesfrom the science of Elizabeth
Kubler-Ross but whether it's agood or bad change, there is an
(17:57):
immediate spike or drop inwell-being.
Then we sort of level out for alittle bit, but then there's a
dip.
As we go through the transition, even if I'm happy about this
change, there's still going tobe that time of difficulty
amongst the team as we re-findour little ground.
So I think for leaders it'sreasonable and right that you
(18:18):
give people time to adjust, andthat isn't a couple of days.
But as we go through, it'swhether people come out the
other side.
Naturally there's a point atwhich we accept this difference.
I've got to move on.
I've got to find my new wayinto it.
So, if you imagine, we havesort of results down the side of
a graph, holly, and ourmotivation to change along the
(18:40):
bottom.
So, top right, I'm doing greatat my job and I'm totally
accepting this new change.
Those are our change champions.
Great, they'll just get on withit.
We don't need to worry aboutthem too much.
Bottom right, we've got lowresults.
So, for whatever reason, we'renot performing at our job very
well.
But actually they are trying towork with this new culture,
(19:02):
they're trying to work with newpersonalities, they're trying to
get on with stuff.
Those are the people we cantrain and develop and work with
and invest our time in Bottomleft is people who are
underperforming and clearly justdo not want to change or be
part of this new world.
There is a conversation, ofcourse, to now have.
(19:24):
Should this person continue tobe part of this group?
As somebody who was let go fromthe newspaper that I was at for
10 years for bigger financialreasons not my performance per
se but I know how horrible it isto be on the other side of that
, and I don't think any leader'srole should be to try and find
(19:45):
people who shouldn't be hereanymore.
But we all have aresponsibility to perform well
and we need to perform for theteam.
So there is a longer term chatabout where to go with them.
But actually the mostchallenging one is top left, as
it were.
High results, low motivation tochange.
High results, low motivation tochange when somebody's doing
(20:05):
very well but they are almostarguing against, potentially
even saboteuring this change.
That's a challenging situationbecause you don't have an easy
business reason to say thisperson is underperforming, I
don't want them here.
So then it becomes about themnot accepting the culture.
(20:27):
But that is arguing.
They're almost not acceptingyou as a leader.
So that is the person where Ithink we need to use those
tricks.
I'm going to say in a nice waythat we've been talking about
being your own cynic, empatheticcynicism, but I'm going to
argue.
One of the things you reallyneed to do with that person is
lay your cards out on the lineas to where you're at and what
(20:50):
your reality is, and give themspace to speak honestly to you.
And as somebody who was a bit ofa cynic in my employee days
Holly, I'm willing to admit,especially growing up in Britain
we're a little bit more passive, aggressive than here in
America is I felt that if Idisagreed with my boss, they
would just hate me and we wouldhave a fight and then I'd get
(21:11):
fired.
So I was very good at noddingalong and smiling and saying,
yes, I'll do that, and thenleaving the room and having no
intention of doing it.
Looking back, I wish somebodyhad said to me I can see you
disagree with this, howell, or Ican see you have challenges
with me.
Please tell me what they are.
You will not be in trouble,it's okay, but if you cannot
(21:34):
come along on this change, youwill not be here for very long
and I don't want that to happen.
So speak up.
So actually it's that top leftpotential saboteur group that we
need to be aware of, active onand considering that that's
where our time needs to be spentto get the best long-term
(21:55):
output.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, I completely agree with you on the cards on
the table.
I'm one who constantly tells myleaders, when they are having
to deal with a toughconversation with someone, that
you're actually doing right bythem that yes, it's a tough
conversation, you don't want tohurt their feelings or hurt them
or discourage them, but you'reactually helping them by being
honest with them, by lettingthem know where they stand and
(22:18):
what the future is going to looklike if it continues this way,
but that you also want to be ontheir team.
You want to see them learn andgrow and and engage, but in a
way that is is productive andhealthy for the culture and for
the overall team and thereforeorganization.
But absolutely being able tohave those, those honest
conversations, is not alwayseasy, but is very vital for sure
(22:41):
.
Now, along with that, we have alot of change that takes place
within leaders, whether it beleaders growing into different
roles or even leaders leaving togo to different organizations,
which can be a good thing too.
I know some of those I've hadthe pleasure of mentoring, I've
loved having on my team and Iwant to keep them, but I always
(23:04):
want to invest and grow in themin a way that I want to see them
excel and even fly by me right,and I want to be there to cheer
them on and be in their corner.
So it can be a good thing whenpeople leave also.
So any tips for leadersdesiring to build their
leadership bench?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Of course, what's interestingabout most people who move up
into leadership is you were goodat the job below it, as it were
.
Very few of us get moved upbecause we showed some skill in
leadership.
We simply weren't able to, somost of us are flying pretty
blind when we set out.
So what really are you tryingto achieve as a leader?
(23:47):
Obviously, you're trying toachieve great results for your
group, whatever that may be.
What does results mean for yourteam?
Great, actually.
What's the second biggest thingyou're doing as a leader is the
development of your people.
I would say that, actually, ifyour people are sitting there,
not growing and not developing,you are missing a major part of
(24:11):
leadership.
It's nice to have a stable teamfor a long time, but in a
modern world, I just don't thinkthat's a reality anymore.
We don't look at work in thesame way as we used to.
Honestly, you're really luckyto keep somebody in exactly the
same role for two to three yearsnow.
You're doing a great job atkeeping them.
(24:32):
So I do think it's always aboutlooking at their growth, but I
also think it's about workingwith them to understand that
growth doesn't always meanpromotion or the next step up
the ladder.
I know people who moved intoleadership and realized it
wasn't for them at all.
They enjoyed doing the job.
(24:54):
Maybe they wanted to make a bitmore money doing it, or they
wanted an opportunity to dodifferent things but actually
once they got there theyrealized they'd taken a missed
turn.
So what I would encourageleaders to do is start much
earlier with people on theconversations about where do
they think their life is going.
(25:14):
Do they want promotion andchange and growth?
If so, what does that mean tothem?
But get them understanding theopportunities of where they can
go, what growth can be.
Even if you stay in the samerole, you can feel much more
fulfilled next year than thisyear.
I'm not pushing this oneverybody by any stretch, but I
(25:35):
had a very personal choice that,as somebody who in my first two
jobs had faked dentistappointments so I could go for
interviews because I knew thatthey would be angry at me for
looking for a new job, I wasvery keen with my team that that
wasn't a feeling, that theydidn't turn up one day with a
resignation letter and just sayI'm out of here, howell.
(25:56):
So I made this very big thingof if you're unhappy, come and
tell me.
This is not a job for life.
Most of them were fresh out ofuniversity.
If I had them for two years,holly, I was doing very well and
I was very proud of myself.
My role was definitely to getthem to be promoted internally,
but me personally, I felt myrole was just to help them to
(26:17):
see opportunities in life andthe world and where they can go.
And to your point earlier on,yes, many of them went off to be
much more successful and richerthan I am and couldn't be
prouder of them.
I'm very proud of myself that Iwas a little piece of that.
So people would say they weremiserable and they would tell me
they're unhappy.
It's safe in the knowledge thatI wouldn't take that personally
(26:41):
.
It's a job.
We want to be paid well, wewant to enjoy what we do, but
each one is a stepping stone tosomewhere.
Maybe we stay for a long time,maybe it doesn't work, but I
think what leaders can look atis seeing a major piece of your
role as that progression, asbuilding plans with people so
(27:02):
that when it happens, it happensthe way you want, not some
surprise of I'm just not comingin on Monday.
I'm done.
And just to go back to theconversation we were just having
, but in Britain, holly, it'smuch harder to get somebody out
of your organization.
We don't have at-willemployment.
It takes months and months andyou have to have meetings.
(27:23):
And so actually, as a verynon-confrontational person, I
was very bad at this, butbecause I was forced by HR to go
through a process, I was forcedto be more deliberate with
underperformers, but withover-performers I did more
naturally want to see themsucceed.
So I am not claiming in any way, holly, that I'm a perfect
(27:45):
manager.
We all have our strengths andweaknesses and we need to accept
that.
But I would push us all to seeteam development, team future
and planning as a major part.
So nothing is a surprise.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
That is, though, because I love the truly I'm not
even sure engagement is theright word but care that you
just expressed in showing theteam, because I, too, have been
there, where I left for a jobpromotion and something I really
wanted to do in preparation formy future, and my former boss
(28:23):
was not in no way a cheerleader,if anything, it was anti and
con, and it was just like wait,what?
Why aren't you happy for me?
Why aren't you cheering me on?
Why are, all of a sudden, youturned into my enemy, and I'll
never forget leaving there, andit was sad for something that I
felt should have been soexciting and a dream, so to
(28:45):
speak.
I felt very discouraged, and soI've tried to really make sure
that, as a leader myself, thatit is always.
Yeah, it's not about every oneis replaceable at a job, I feel,
but they should be able toreach for their dreams, right,
so we can find the next personto fill that slot, but that
(29:06):
person who's currently fillingthat slot, we should be able to
encourage them and cheer them onin whatever they want to do,
and sometimes we are a steppingstone in the path of where
they're going, and I want to bea part of that that they have
good memories with.
I want to be a part of thatthat helped them grow, both in
tough times as well as in goodtimes, but that helped them get
(29:28):
to that next stepping stone too,and not something where, oh
you're here, you need to stayhere for 10 years or you're a
horrible person.
It's like, no, you know, whileyou're here, let me pour into
you and then let me just cheeryou on as you go on to what
really fills you.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
And people will work harder and stay longer if
they're building that futurewith you rather than having to
plan a future behind your back.
So, again, lovely, if we cankeep wonderful people, that'd be
great.
If we can promote thosewonderful people, let's do that.
But if somebody is not going tobe here in five years, let's
get the best out of them now.
(30:03):
And on a purely personal level,holly, I think it's really sad
when we don't remember aworkplace positively, one where
we were for a long time,invested a lot of our life in
eight to 10 hours a day, morethan we see our children to
remember it negatively is sadfor everybody.
Let's get a great job out ofthem, let's all work as hard as
(30:24):
we can, but we should rememberthese moments in life with a
positive spin and joy for thepeople we worked with and who
worked for us.
And so, again, I do not claim Ihit this 100%, holly, but it's
lovely that I have many peoplewho used to work for me still on
Facebook, who send me littleupdates of what they're doing
and where they are and watchingthese massive job titles come
(30:44):
through, and I feel a little bitproud that I had a small piece
of that.
They did that on their own, butI was a little part of that
growth in their early years andthat brings great joy to me.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yeah, oh, I so agree, and none of us are going to hit
the mark right, but we're allgrowing in the process and even
some of those tough leaders.
We can learn what we do ordon't want to do in our own
leadership and even our ownfailures.
Hopefully we can feel forwardand learn from them and do it
differently the next time.
So you mentioned a couple ofthings One, how much COVID has
(31:17):
impacted even our continuationof how we do employment, how
that looks, what that looks like, and then also even connections
of how you can still stay incontact with people on Facebook
and social media and so forth.
So, with that, so many arestill working virtually right.
That just found to be a goodbusiness setup for many
(31:39):
organizations as well, as, whenpeople leave, you can stay in
contact with them social mediawise.
How can you continue to buildand maintain that strong
relationship with employees whoare still working remotely?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Well, a big one I'll throw in is in a remote world.
What you don't want to do iscreate the worst of what office
life was, which was when yourleader or boss sat 20 yards away
but stayed in their littleoffice or ignored you completely
until there was a problem.
So them just walking towardsyou, your heart would sink Like,
(32:13):
oh my God, something awful hashappened.
What is it going to be In avirtual world that's recreated,
unfortunately, when we onlycontact somebody when there's an
issue?
So I would heartily recommendto all leaders to be much more
deliberate about regular Zoomcalls, phone calls.
Whatever we do at Teams,however, we get in touch with
(32:34):
people, but at different momentsfor different reasons.
So the phone ringing or a Zoomcall appearing on my calendar
doesn't fill me with dread as anemployee that clearly I'm about
to get screamed at or even justnicely told I've done something
wrong.
There should be a mix of how wediscourse and chat with them.
(32:55):
So a big one I'd push is makerandom calls.
So when you have a few minutes,just call one of your team
members and they'll probablypick up.
They work for you.
They're probably not going toavoid your call If they're
really busy and can't do it, sobe it.
Make that very clear that it'snot required.
If they red button the call, noissue.
(33:18):
But if they pick up, just havea chat.
So back to what we were talkingabout later on, those little
moments of intimacy.
I'm not calling because there'sa problem.
I'm not calling because we haveto get this thing done in five
minutes.
I'm just calling to see what'sgoing on today and what you're
doing and what you're doing thisevening and are you having a
good time?
And can I be of use while I'mhere?
(33:38):
I've got 15 minutes.
Have you got any questions forme?
We can just have a little chatand then tomorrow I might call
because there's a problem, butyou won't just dread it in that
terrible way.
And again, certainly notclaiming I nailed all of this,
but for the last 10 years now Ihad a remote team and we had one
of the closest relationshipsjust on this idea that, using
(34:01):
Skype back in the day we had agroup chat and you would just
call it and if anyone wasavailable they'd pick up, and it
was actually the best bit ofoffice life, which is I've got
somebody to chat to but, unlikean office, I don't have to talk
to them, I can not pick up or Ijust can do something else in an
office.
They know you're not doinganything, they can see it, but
here it was.
Just it brought these littlemoments of joy to what is
(34:22):
otherwise hard Working remotelyby yourself.
Whatever our job is has itschallenges.
So make the positive out of it.
So make those little randomcalls as and when.
But also in those call moments,don't just make it about the
problem.
If we do have to talk about aproblem, I try and make every
(34:44):
call have something good that'sgoing on that we can discuss and
a challenge.
As much as possible.
Try and balance out eachinteraction, because if we put
the phone down or hang up on aZoom call from just a big
problem, that puts us on anegative now for the next few
hours or days even.
So, again, if we are speaking,let's try and balance it out.
(35:06):
Some good has happened.
Don't worry.
There is also a challenge.
We'll need to get to that.
But I should come off thinkinga good, useful chat with my boss
, not.
Oh my God, the world is fallingand I've got to deal with it.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, oh, I like that , I like that, I like that a lot
.
Now, along with the change ofremote work or even flexibility
right, so many are workingdifferent, flexible work
schedules.
There's also other changes ofincreasing people having side
gigs right, people doing somethings that are different than
what they're doing a job as, orstarting new businesses on their
(35:38):
own, on the side or a hobbythat they enjoy that they're
getting a little bit morepassionate about.
That is taking more of aninterest in An intense focus on
diversity and equality, andinclusion has really been a
focus within the workforce.
Even challenges of change, ofhaving a new boss, as we've
talked about earlier, greater ormore competition, so many more
people, so many more businessesstarting up right and popping up
(36:00):
everywhere, and even the impactof artificial intelligence I
mean, that's a part ofeveryone's job, it seems and
fears that can stir up on will Istill have my job or what does
this look like?
So, whether it be good or badchange, what are some of the
emotional ups and downs that wemight experience and how can we
kind of navigate those as aleader or an employee?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Well, let's dive and change a little bit here,
because you're right, we live ina world now where change is
just inevitable.
As an interesting number in1960, holly, the average
lifespan of a Fortune 500company was expected to be about
60 years.
So that's how long you expectedto stay a big company.
What do you think is theaverage lifespan of a Fortune
500 company today, holly?
(36:44):
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (36:45):
I don't even know what to guess.
If it was 60 years, I'd sayit's definitely dropped.
So 30, 40?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, even more than that.
18 years now is the averagelifespan of our biggest
companies.
So some of that is mergers, buta lot of that is just companies
coming and going.
The BlackBerry movie if youhaven't seen it, is just
fascinating.
It still exists as a name, butthat rise and fall of a brand in
(37:13):
like an eight or nine yearperiod was just incredible.
And we're all part of thatworld now.
So we're all facing change allthe time.
So what's going on?
Is that actually, even if wesay we're good at change, status
quo bias is a powerful force inall of us.
We want basically each day tobe much the same.
(37:33):
We couldn't live life ifeverything was different every
single day.
It would just be impossible.
If you've had a day, holly, oranyone listening has had one of
those days where everything washard, everything was challenging
, by like seven o'clock you'redone, you've got nothing left,
you're snapping at people.
Those are the days where it'sjust a struggle.
So that's why we try and keeppatterns.
(37:55):
What's the status quo?
How much can I keep the same?
So when something new comes in,small or big, there are natural
forces within us saying I'drather just stay where I am.
So preference.
Stability says once I've chosensomething, I'll just stick with
it.
So if you've done training,holly, and people come in, once
they sit in a chair, it's theirchair, that's it.
(38:17):
If you ask them to move,they're genuinely angry that
they're going to a differentchair.
Even the chair next door, itdoesn't matter.
I've made this choice, let mejust stay where I am.
The other big one is anticipatedregret and blame.
Ie.
What I'm worried about is mylife getting worse.
Whatever the change is even agood change.
(38:38):
I'm comfortable here.
I don't want to think about thealternatives.
So in studies, what they'veshown is that people are more
comfortable with unhappinessthan we are with uncertainty.
So literally, we'd rather stayin a miserable position than
change.
I'm using miserable in anextreme sense, but actually, if
(38:58):
we all think back on jobs wewere in at some point, we look
back now and go, oh, I stayedtoo long, it wasn't a good idea,
it wasn't working.
Why did I stay?
Because at least we know it.
We may not love it, but we knowit, and change is hard.
So for all of us, employees andbosses, it's realizing that a
big change at work is not theonly thing going on in that
(39:19):
person's life.
There are hundreds of theselittle changes going on, each
one affecting the other.
So big things at home willaffect you at work, big things
at work will affect you at home,and sometimes the smallest
little change throws you overthe edge.
I remember coming into workonce and my boss had moved my
desk about 12 inches, like notfar, kind of twisting it, and I
(39:43):
just flipped out and spent thewhole day stomping about and
complaining and I don't know whyit annoyed me so much, but I
think it was just a culminationof many, many things.
So again, giving employeesspace to speak, definitely, but
also just realizing that how youemotionally react to a change
is not the same as them.
They may be more overawed by it, find it much more challenging
(40:07):
for a reason you don'tunderstand.
But, like you say, they mightbe working two or three jobs or
they might have a side thingthat they're going on, all of
which is playing on theiremotional draining every day.
And AI, let's face it, is aworry in many people's minds.
Now, what will it mean?
How much is it going to changethe work we're doing, especially
(40:28):
if it already is affecting thework we're doing?
So, as people have these littlemoments again.
The biggest thing I challengewith people is don't expect
people to react the way you do.
What is?
The empathetic view of theirsituation may be different to
mine.
They're not right or wrong orbetter or worse than me.
(40:49):
They're just reactingdifferently.
How can I understand wherethey're coming from?
Try and get the best I need formy job, whilst understanding
that this human also has otherthings happening in their life.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah, oh, that's so true.
I teach a women's Sunday schoolclass on Sundays and I, as part
of the lesson one Sunday, I hadthem all change seats.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Right.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
It was.
It was just part of the lesson,but I still hear about that yeah
you remember that Sunday thatyou had the ladies switch seats
and it's like, oh my goodness, Ididn't realize how life
shattering that would be.
But it was a great opportunityfor me also to kind of put
myself in their shoes and go, oh, wow, yeah, like I can see how
just that one change impacted.
(41:36):
Because I know when thingschange for me, I am not one to
go woohoo, I'm so excited tochange.
I go silent and it's just, I'mnot mad, I'm not frustrated, I'm
not on board, but I just needto process the change and
tomorrow I'll probably be fine,or maybe a week from now I'll be
fine.
Right now we're going through asituation where someone recently
(41:59):
did a change and I can tell youit's been about three or four
weeks and I'm still not there.
But I also know that we alljust process the change
differently.
So that's so important toremember, to put ourselves in
other people's shoes.
But then also, everyone has astory we know nothing about,
right, and that change mighthave been one more change in
(42:22):
their life.
So how can leaders help theirteams process and adapt and even
embrace change, whether it befrom day to day, to procedures
and policies, to eventransitions and responsibilities
and roles?
Speaker 2 (42:35):
So there's two big reasons here.
Number one is helping peopleunderstand how change works.
It is amazing how little wereally understand about what
happens as we go through achange.
I was taught the change curvesthat I mentioned earlier when I
became a leader, and all Iremember thinking is this is not
leadership advice, this is justhuman advice.
(42:56):
Why have I never seen this?
And it's, honestly, the singlepiece of science I have shown
more and helped more people withover the years, which is, as
they are going through the toughtimes of change again, even a
positive change having a baby,getting married, starting a new
job.
As you're on that emotional dip, what you're thinking, of
course, is why aren't I enjoyingthis?
(43:18):
Why is everyone telling me I'msupposed to be loving this and
I'm hating every minute of it?
Or I'm worried about theresults Having children children
especially because you've beentold since you were born that
this was the most joyous thingthat was going to happen to you,
and it's incredibly harddealing with your first baby and
yours is crying, and all thebabies on Facebook don't seem to
(43:40):
be crying.
And so just helping somebodyunderstand, don't worry, this is
what everybody has gone through.
So if you just type changecurves.
Into Google it'll give you agreat little picture of it, but
there's natural ups and downs.
I'll give you a quick story.
A friend of mine back at homein the UK but her mom was
actually the first ever winnerof the Euro millions lottery,
(44:02):
which is kind of our Powerballthat covers Europe.
It's not quite Powerball money,but it was £45 million.
She won on a Friday night verynormal family in Newcastle where
I grew up by Sunday morning shewas sitting on her living room
floor crying her eyes out,screaming I don't want it, I
don't want it, just take it away.
(44:23):
And honestly, she never reallycame out perfectly at the end of
it.
You know that's a hell of atransition to go through when
you're, you know, past 18, as itwere.
And so again, this thing we allthink well, if we won the
lottery, all our problems wouldbe solved, life would just be
amazing.
It just creates a whole new setof problems and takes you on a
(44:44):
bizarre emotional journey thatyou couldn't possibly understand
.
So number one is helping them tounderstand that you're not
doing anything wrong and you'renot a bad person because you're
struggling with this change,even if this change was supposed
to be a positive thing.
So literally walk them throughthe change curves, but be a
sounding board for them.
(45:05):
Where are you at the moment?
Where's your head at?
The second big thing we can do,holly, is give them control of
it in some way.
It's the difference.
You sort of alluded to itearlier.
You know this changes theperson is doing.
It's like this isn't my changes, change is being done to me, or
this being changes to beingdone around me, me, and I'm just
(45:25):
being forced to go along withit.
That's why we naturally willpush back.
I didn't want this.
This wasn't my choice, so I'mnot going to do what I should do
.
We have to have some feelingthat it's for me, about me, or
by me, to go.
Okay, then I will come intothis.
(45:45):
Now, maybe it's not as muchcontrol as I would like, maybe
it's not going to happen exactlythe way I want it to, but the
moment a change is announced,what you want to be saying to
people is how would you likethis to happen and what do you
want to do to make this work foryou?
These things have to happen.
That isn't going to changeCompanies, changing this
division.
(46:05):
That's the news.
But beyond that, how much can Igive you the chance to make
choices?
Take control and make your ownchanges.
Then even cynical people haveto at least do something to make
it work for them, hopefullybringing them through.
But, as we talked about earlier, it's not going to work 100% of
the time, but you're givingthem the best tools you can.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
And that's often what we're doing as leaders right,
we're trying to put the tools intheir toolbox, but they decide
what they use, when they use it,if they're even going to use it
.
So we can only do the best thatwe can do.
Also, Now, you've worked with alot of top worldwide and even
high-end companies Starbucks,New York Live, Coca-Cola,
Tiffany Company.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
What are some top leadership tips that you've seen
?
Stick out from such brands.
I'm not going to put it on thebrands actually I'm not being
negative about any of the brandsI've worked for but I'm going
to say that it doesn't matterwhat your company is.
You could be a one-personoutfit or Starbucks is hundreds
of thousands of people.
It still comes down to a leadertrying to make their best
choices.
So we'll all like to think thata big company, big brand, has
(47:17):
nailed some magical way offixing this, but it's really not
true at all.
But I think each leader willfind their best route.
I was lucky.
So it was a newspaper.
I worked for the FinancialTimes newspaper.
They'd been around for 140years, so they had a stable
knowledge of how this worked,what they were doing, and the
leadership group that I cameinto was fantastic.
(47:39):
So I have almost universallypositive stories about those
years and I did learn lots ofpositive things to recreate when
I got there.
As you said earlier on, I alsolearned some of the things I
definitely wasn't going to dofrom leaders I'd met before then
.
And then you make your ownmistakes.
But I think the best we can sayno matter what the brand is, but
(48:01):
what company are you givingyour leaders the chance to be
the best version of themselves?
There are certain things weneed to do as leaders, of course
, certain tick box things thatneed to do and certain
expectations we have, butthere's no such thing as a
perfect leader.
Steve Jobs was an incredibleleader, but by most accounts, he
(48:23):
was a horrible person most ofthe time.
So he was doing somethingincredibly well, but other
things.
You would point at him and say,well, I wouldn't work for that
person.
That's not the leader thatwould work for me.
All we can do is be the bestversion of ourselves.
So when I do see an organizationthat's working, that's really
in flow and getting the best,when you meet the leaders, what
(48:46):
you can see is that they arevery individual.
They are bringing each ofthemselves to the room, to their
team, without being forced tobe a certain type or expected to
manage in a certain way.
But it does not have to be abig brand for that.
If you are a small company andyou're taking on your first real
(49:07):
leader other than you, it'sstill the same idea.
Don't expect them to be you.
Allow them to be the leaderthey need to be, whilst giving
them all the advice and ideasyou can but shaping.
Of the thousand things we haveto do as a leader, what's the
hundred I'm going to be amazingat?
Let me focus on them.
(49:28):
Get better at as many of theothers that I can without
forcing myself to be somethingthat's never going to be my
strength.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Well said, well said.
Now here on Holly's Highlightspodcast, we have a signature
question that if you could goback and encourage, inspire or
even equip yourself as a child,what would you tell your young
self?
Speaker 2 (49:51):
I would tell myself something that I have now
learned.
But because I moved to America,I'm going to give you all
complete credit for this,everybody.
So I absolutely love living inAmerica.
I came here in 2008.
I was 32, just upped my lifeand moved over with the
newspaper that I was with.
What I instantly noticed becauseit's almost impossible not to
(50:12):
notice when you move fromBritain here is how much more
direct people are with you.
So in Britain there's a lot ofdancing around before you tell
somebody that they've donesomething wrong, or there's a
lot of niceness when you'rereally saying you know, those
shoes are terrible and youshouldn't be wearing them.
Like there's a lot of lovelyshoes.
And I got here and people wouldjust say to me no, that's not
(50:34):
right, howell, that's not what Iwanted.
And I'd be like what, where'sthe dancing about?
Where's the politeness?
Like, oh my God.
But then I met an American womanwho is the most wonderful woman
in the world and I adore her tobits, and she taught me that it
was okay to disagree without itbeing a fight or without it
meaning that we didn't like eachother.
(50:56):
And so, again, I'm certainlynot claiming we have a perfect
marriage, but we have awonderful marriage because we
now disagree and then discuss it.
But at work it was a revelationto me that it's okay to say I
don't like that, or I disagreewith this, or I'd like to do it
differently, and if you do itrespectfully and courteously and
(51:18):
professionally, you will getthat as a response 99% of the
time and the 1% we can't doanything about.
So there's no point planningfor it.
But everybody else actuallydoes want to know what you think
.
So, as I say, I would hidebehind smiles and say, yes,
that's wonderful, I'll do thatand leave the room and just not
do it.
And looking back now, how muchfurther I could have got or
(51:40):
problems we could have fixed IfI just said I've got a different
idea.
Here's what I want to try.
But it was true of myfriendships, life, everything
until I got to America, holly.
So congratulations to you all.
You've made me better.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
That's great.
That's great.
I actually like that becauseyou know, whenever people ask,
like, if you were a superhero,what superhero would you be?
Or you know what talent wouldyou have, or whatever and I'm
always like I just want to belike a fly on the wall because I
want to hear the truth.
I want to hear what people aresaying not in front of you,
(52:15):
right, because I'm very muchjust shoot it to me straight and
I want to know what people arethinking and feeling and I want
them to be honest with me and Iwant to be open and receptive to
that too.
I really appreciate those hardconversations and I appreciate
and value really appreciatethose hard conversations and I
appreciate and value the courageto be able to have them.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
So I love that.
I love that you shared that,and what I say a lot with
feedback now is if you ask thosepeople what's the best piece of
feedback you ever received,it's something they didn't like
hearing at the time, but ithelped you tremendously.
No, it probably wasn't fun, butwe don't get better.
It's nice to be told you'rewonderful, but what really helps
you is somebody telling you thehonest, godless truth that you
knew was hard for them.
(52:53):
That's what's going to give youthe most value.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
So true, so true.
Our leaders often will ask eachother what do I need to hear
that I don't want to hear?
And it's giving that permissionto share it.
But, yeah, we definitely needto be ready for it too, because
it's important.
So, yep, well, great Hal, thankyou so much for joining us
today.
How can our listeners connectfurther with you?
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Yeah, wonderful.
So I'm the only Howell Berry inthe entire world.
So if you get my spelling fromthe show notes folks, I'm very
easy to find online.
But at howellberrycom is myspeaker page.
But my company is AlicornLearning.
So alicornlearningcom, where wework with brands, as you say,
all over the world, all types ofcompanies, from literal
startups of two people tomassive brands, but anything
(53:39):
that can just help you as a team, as a leader, any challenges
you're facing, we will doeverything we can to support you
and move you forward.
So love to hear from people.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Wonderful.
Thank you again, Hal.
We appreciate you investingyour time and your talent with
us today.
Truly, it was a pleasure havingyou.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Thank you very much indeed.
Speaker 1 (53:59):
Thank you for joining me on this journey of life.
I hope that today's highlighthas been encouraging, inspiring
and equipping so you can go outand live your life full of
purpose.
I'd be honored if you'd take amoment to leave a review or,
better yet, subscribe.
We can also stay in touch byjoining my email list at
hollykirbycom.
(54:20):
That's H-O-L-L-Y-C-U-R-B-Ycom.
Until next time, make it agreat day for a great day.
Hi, friend, welcome to Holly's Highlights, a podcast
designed to encourage, inspireand equip you to intentionally
live your life full of purpose.
I'm your host, holly Kirby,motivational speaker, leadership
cultivator, marketingstrategist and personal
cheerleader.
Let's check out today'shighlights.
With a new year brings newopportunities.
(00:24):
That's right.
This is where I could use yourhelp, my friends.
Would you please take a momentto do one or all of the
following in hopes of helping mereach some goals this new year?
First, subscribe to this verypodcast, holly's Highlights
Podcast.
Even write and review thepodcast where you're able, such
as Apple Podcasts, and, ofcourse, share with friends,
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(00:45):
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Second, join my monthly emailHolly's happenings by visiting
wwwhollykirbycom.
Third, follow me on Facebook atHolly's highlights, and or on
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And lastly, rate and review mybook facelift on Amazon and, if
you have time, on Target,walmart and Barnes Noble
(01:06):
websites.
I can't thank you enough foryour support and encouragement
in such ways.
Happy New Year's, my friends.
The other day, I was at my localgrocery store when the manager
came over and said some verykind compliments as she walked
away.
I mentioned to the groceryclerk that I really enjoy my
interactions with this manager.
The clerk proceeded to tellingme that this manager was fairly
(01:29):
new due to a manager who hadcome in prior to her.
Well, she, long story short,had a huge turnover of staff who
wasn't too fond of thisprevious manager.
Well, in training anddeveloping leaders for over 20
years, I fully believe a leader,manager, whatever you want to
call them, makes or breaks notonly the culture of an
organization, but can actuallyimpact performance and retention
(01:53):
and even the reputation of anorganization.
As the saying goes, peopledon't leave jobs, they leave
managers or leaders.
So today we have with us anexpert specializing in
transforming leadership and teamdynamics for global brands like
Nike, coca-cola and TiffanyCompany Howell Berry.
His mission is to createadult-centered, real-world
(02:14):
learning experiences that winover even the most reluctant
participants.
Welcome, howell.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Hello Holly, how are you?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
It's an absolute joy.
Thank you for having me here.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Oh, our pleasure Now.
According to research byGettysburg College, one third of
our life is spent at work, soit's understandable that,
whether it be a new manager or acurrent manager, bosses of any
title can really impact the workenvironment.
So perhaps we can start at whatmany may encounter throughout
their life, whether as a leaderor as an employee.
(02:48):
What are some reasons thatpeople are resistant to their
leaders?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Thank you.
It's an interesting questionfor all of us because actually,
let's be honest, holly, in thelast few years since COVID, it's
probably more than a third,isn't it we are now engaged in
work in some way.
That separation of work andhome for many of us changed over
that time.
So the effect that our leaderhas on us, yeah, is even greater
, and you mentioned it.
(03:14):
But of course, what all thestudies show is, yeah, people
stay at jobs for leaders andthey leave jobs because of
leaders, and sometimes you cantangibly say why.
But sometimes it's verydifficult for both sides to
express what the problem is.
It's not always like they're anightmare leader that everybody
(03:37):
doesn't get on with.
So actually it's verychallenging on both sides.
As an employee, you think maybethere's something wrong with
you if other people find theleader positive.
And as a leader, having beenthere myself, it's incredibly
difficult when you can't winover a team member.
You hired them, you want to bea positive impact on their life
(04:01):
and yet, for whatever reason, itjust doesn't click on their
life.
And yet, for whatever reason,it just doesn't click.
So my numbers, holly, don'tknow what yours are, but over
the time of my main corporatelife.
I hired about 60 people.
Of that 60, I would say 40 ofthem had a genuinely positive
experience with me as theirmanager.
(04:22):
I would say 15 had an okayexperience.
They didn't hate me, it didn'taffect their life negatively,
but they could have changedmanagers and it wouldn't have
been a great heave-ho.
And five honestly just didn'tlike working for me and I don't
think their life was a horriblenightmare.
But for whatever reason we justdidn't click and I tried as
(04:47):
hard as I could and sometimes Ichanged the relationship a bit,
but sometimes it just wasn'tgoing to happen.
So you've simply got to makethe best of where we are, which
is we've got a job to do andthat's fine.
We don't have to be bestfriends, but when you feel
you're negatively affectingsomeone at work, it's really
really difficult for you.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, yeah, and to back up slightly of how you were
saying, since COVID we spendmore time at work.
That makes sense.
I feel like it's just mesometimes where I feel like my
life is fully integrated withwork, to where there's not a
nine to five and then you clockout and it's just work.
I feel it truly is my life andmy both personal life and work
life just mesh and I'm notreally sure anymore sometimes
(05:32):
when I'm on and when I'm off foreither one.
So I definitely agree, it'smore than that one third and,
yes, hitting.
I like how you pointed out thepersonalization of how you
connect with some, don't withothers, and we're not going to
be everyone's cup of tea, right.
But as a leader, we can get to apoint where we just kind of
feel like we're banging our headagainst the wall, right, like
(05:54):
we've tried every aspect oftrying to help them, pour into
them intentionally, teach them,grow them, be nice to them,
whatever we can do so forleaders who find themselves
constantly battling resistancefrom team members, how can they
be more effective as a leaderwithout losing their sanity?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Well.
So again, let's be as positiveabout this as we can.
It is a work relationship.
We're not friends, we are notfamily.
We don't have to hang out, wedon't have to get on in that way
.
What we need to provide is anenvironment where we are
creating a space where they cando their job as well as possible
, and if that's happening, thenthose little extras that make it
(06:36):
a joy are nice, but notnecessarily required, but either
for the employee or the leader.
If, for whatever reason, it ischallenging to be the best at
your role, then no, we do havesomething more that we can
deliberately do here.
And this doesn't fall entirelyon the leader, of course, but,
like in a parent-childrelationship, I think you have a
(06:58):
greater responsibility to tryand make this work.
It's not on the child, it's onthe parent.
You chose it.
Let's make it yours.
As the more senior person, Ithink it's your job.
So let's also be honest.
When we don't work well with amanager, we can sometimes
(07:19):
exacerbate it a bit, almostdeliberately, as an employee.
We don't like them, we don'twant to see them succeed, so we
throw little spanners in theworks to cause problems every so
often.
So my very first job, holly, Iwas an actor when I was a kid.
You can find me online and it'svery interesting as an actor,
(07:40):
because you just turn up for twodays, get paid well and then
leave.
That's it.
No one looks after you, nobodycares.
So my first real job was insales for a magazine company and
I loved my first manager.
We had a fantastic relationshipand then they brought in
somebody new and within 20minutes, holly, I just knew we
were not going to work welltogether and looking back now, I
(08:02):
did everything I could to tryand make sure that that was
absolutely true.
I wanted to fulfill my theoryin my head, as it were, and he
didn't do very much to fix it.
But what could he have donemore?
One of the things I'm going tothrow out is a theory I love for
leaders, which is be your owncynic.
(08:23):
Try and see this from theemployee's point of view.
What's the most negative,worrisome, fearsome thing that
they could be thinking?
Because what we think, ofcourse, is I'm a lovely leader
and I care and I'm good at this.
Why can't they see that?
But actually, let's try and seeit from their side.
Maybe they did have a greatrelationship with their old
(08:43):
leader.
Maybe they have challengesoutside.
Maybe they did have a greatrelationship with their old
leader.
Maybe they have challengesoutside.
Maybe they were not performingas well as they want to already
and this is just making itdifficult.
So, sitting down with each ofyour employees but definitely
someone who there's a bit of achallenge there and voicing
yourself that you can see whatthey might be worried about, I
(09:03):
can see with a new leader thismight be a challenge, or we are
quite different people.
I can see that the way I workmight be more difficult for you.
Saying it out loud means A thatthe other person can see that
you are not blind to theirchallenges.
You do understand them a littlebit.
But also it just makes it moreharder to be cynical.
(09:25):
If you're saying what I'mthinking, I can't really use it
as a weapon against you.
All I can really think is yes,that is what I'm feeling.
I still don't like you verymuch, but you do seem to
understand where I'm coming from.
So you've taken away a lot ofthat clash, whereas if you just
keep speaking to them likethey're missing something, if
(09:46):
you just got on board,everything would be fantastic.
What's your problem?
You're giving that employeeeverything they need to just go.
This person doesn't get me.
It's going to fail.
I knew it was, and then we canwatch it fail deliberately.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Those are good.
Those are good, and it soundslike those can be the biggest
mistakes that leaders tend tomake when navigating the
challenges that you werementioning of leading a team.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I think so Because when you come in as a leader
let's say we come in externallyor even promoted from a
different group you've got somuch pressure on you as a leader
.
You want to make a goodimpression, you want to get
things up and running veryquickly, you want everyone on
the team to see the positives inyou and we don't wake up in the
morning thinking let's list outall the things people will hate
(10:34):
about me today.
That's not how our brains work.
So it's genuinely surprising tous when somebody doesn't like
us or doesn't seem to work wellfor us or finds our leadership
challenging.
For most of us we're justflummoxed as to why.
What's the problem here?
But if we be our own cynic, wecan get that person talking, and
(10:55):
what I'd really encourage themis to speak to that person and
give them space to open up andsay how they're feeling.
Now, no one ever tells theirleader the complete truth,
especially not a brand newleader where you can tell
there's a little bit of friction.
But if they give you anythingthat is truthful, useful,
something you can work on, thefirst words out of your mouth
(11:16):
should be thank you very muchfor that feedback, or thank you
very much for letting me know.
Even if you completely disagreeor you think that person's just
making this up, they've beenhonest with you.
That is the major step towardsus being able to overcome this
challenge, so you can come backthe next day and say, look, I've
(11:38):
thought about it.
I'm not going to change whatI'm doing, but I appreciate
where you're coming from.
Let me see how I can work withyou.
You don't have to take theirfeedback on board to change it,
but you have to seem like yougenuinely take it seriously.
So thank you very much.
I see where you're at.
Let's see what compromises wecan make, and in other areas
(11:59):
this is just required.
So let's work out how you cando it best or how it works best
for you.
But it's a process of what Icall empathetic cynicism, which
is, I'm empathetic to yoursituation.
I'm also going to allow mycynicism to come out, but
between the two of us we canfind a real place.
But I think sometimes leadersworry about being negative or
(12:23):
cynical, so they just put anoptimistic face on it.
Everything's wonderful,everything will be great.
If you just listen to me, ifyou are cynical, blind optimism
is not going to win you over atall.
You have to have somethinguseful to go.
I can buy into that.
Still don't really see thispart of them, but that piece I
agree with them.
Let's try and make that happen.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
That's a great pivot, great pivot.
So anything else in addition tothat initial step that can help
leaders build that trust andsupport and even rapport with
their employees.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, absolutely I get.
Look in a modern world.
I think what's interesting,holly, is the number of
different situations we havewith our teams nowadays.
In my corporate days, Iprimarily did just sit three
feet away from them, so therewas a whole day of little
interactive moments.
Even if we annoyed each otherat 10 o'clock, we'd probably
(13:17):
have fun at three o'clock in theafternoon.
But in a hybrid world or acompletely remote world, that's
very different.
I think you have to be muchmore deliberate about the
interactions that you have.
So there is a science piece.
If you've ever read the book theTrusted Advisor, holly, it is a
wonderful, wonderful book byMeister, green and Galford and
what they argue, the three bigthings we do that build trust
(13:39):
are credibility, so being anexpert of something, being able
to give this person somethinguseful to them and again, let's
be really blunt, some people onthis team that you've just come
in as a leader or taken over orbeing promoted in, maybe wanted
this job themselves.
So there is that naturalfeeling of what exactly can this
(13:59):
person do for me?
I should have been in that role.
So finding something that youcan genuinely offer that helps
them as a person.
So credibility plus reliability, so doing what we say we're
going to do, living up to ourpromises and a big one, I'm
going to say, for leaders comingin, new leaders, whatever this
relationship is but is beingconsistent.
(14:22):
So the reliability here is Iknow who I'm dealing with.
Each day I see the same leader.
We've probably all had one ofthose leaders where the feeling
was like, who's turning up today?
Is it the happy boss, the angryboss, the confused boss, the
boss who just barks orders atpeople?
They've got to know who it isthey're dealing with.
(14:44):
Even if they don't love it, atleast they understand it.
So giving them that consistencyof personality.
And then the last thing isintimacy, and this doesn't mean
sharing details we don't want toshare, but it does mean showing
that you are a human being.
You're a real person too, withreal challenges and a real life.
(15:05):
So one of the interestingthings, holly, I don't know if
you know, but at the start ofCOVID, trust between colleagues
went up substantially becausefor the first time ever, you got
to see people's real lives.
You saw their kitchens andtheir dogs and their kids and
the stuff they collect, and allthese people who had just been
names on email or faces in anoffice were suddenly real people
(15:26):
.
Well, we can emulate that alittle bit.
As a leader, we can be a person, we can share a little bit of
our lives with them, just enoughthat we feel comfortable with.
But whatever, we're not thatdifferent.
I can show you that we justhave slightly different jobs at
(15:48):
the moment, but our lives arevery similar.
So, whatever you feelcomfortable sharing, but
deliberately structuring thosethree, what can I share to help
them with credibility?
Can I give them a consistentpersonality so they know they
can trust a response, and whatcan I share as a human being
just moves those levers a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Oh, those are great.
Those are great.
Now, what about for the leaderwho has continually invested
into a team member, who hasshown that resistance?
Or maybe they've just not.
They've not hit the mark right.
They haven't seen the neededdevelopment or growth in an
employee that they're supposedto reach for, whether it be
their attitude, their lack offollow through on development or
(16:32):
ownership, or just not beingthe right fit, as we talked
about earlier, or even being aculture killer, because those
come in right, they sneak in.
It's like wow, where did youcome from?
How do you handle that?
Like, what might those stepslook like for that leader?
Or even for a team member withanother team member?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
So.
I think any new leader, orlet's just call it a major
change of team, for whatever thereason is, but if team members
change, the team makeup change,there is actually going to be a
cultural change.
Some people would like it tojust continue on the same as it
was.
That is perfectly natural.
They're not bad people.
But if I was successful in theold team, whatever that looked
(17:13):
like, I would just like it tocontinue here.
So that is actually one of theironies of any change within an
office.
Change of leadership isactually it might be your star
people that are most resistantto this change because it worked
for them before.
If I was just about to getfired and you change the team,
what do I care?
Change it up, you can stillfire me, or maybe things will
(17:35):
get better for me.
So it's understanding that, yes, there is a natural resistance
and we shouldn't just expectpeople to get over it within a
matter of hours or days.
That isn't going to happen.
There is going to be atransition period here.
So change curves, which comesfrom the science of Elizabeth
Kubler-Ross but whether it's agood or bad change, there is an
(17:57):
immediate spike or drop inwell-being.
Then we sort of level out for alittle bit, but then there's a
dip.
As we go through the transition, even if I'm happy about this
change, there's still going tobe that time of difficulty
amongst the team as we re-findour little ground.
So I think for leaders it'sreasonable and right that you
(18:18):
give people time to adjust, andthat isn't a couple of days.
But as we go through, it'swhether people come out the
other side.
Naturally there's a point atwhich we accept this difference.
I've got to move on.
I've got to find my new wayinto it.
So, if you imagine, we havesort of results down the side of
a graph, holly, and ourmotivation to change along the
(18:40):
bottom.
So, top right, I'm doing greatat my job and I'm totally
accepting this new change.
Those are our change champions.
Great, they'll just get on withit.
We don't need to worry aboutthem too much.
Bottom right, we've got lowresults.
So, for whatever reason, we'renot performing at our job very
well.
But actually they are trying towork with this new culture,
(19:02):
they're trying to work with newpersonalities, they're trying to
get on with stuff.
Those are the people we cantrain and develop and work with
and invest our time in Bottomleft is people who are
underperforming and clearly justdo not want to change or be
part of this new world.
There is a conversation, ofcourse, to now have.
(19:24):
Should this person continue tobe part of this group?
As somebody who was let go fromthe newspaper that I was at for
10 years for bigger financialreasons not my performance per
se but I know how horrible it isto be on the other side of that
, and I don't think any leader'srole should be to try and find
(19:45):
people who shouldn't be hereanymore.
But we all have aresponsibility to perform well
and we need to perform for theteam.
So there is a longer term chatabout where to go with them.
But actually the mostchallenging one is top left, as
it were.
High results, low motivation tochange.
High results, low motivation tochange when somebody's doing
(20:05):
very well but they are almostarguing against, potentially
even saboteuring this change.
That's a challenging situationbecause you don't have an easy
business reason to say thisperson is underperforming, I
don't want them here.
So then it becomes about themnot accepting the culture.
(20:27):
But that is arguing.
They're almost not acceptingyou as a leader.
So that is the person where Ithink we need to use those
tricks.
I'm going to say in a nice waythat we've been talking about
being your own cynic, empatheticcynicism, but I'm going to
argue.
One of the things you reallyneed to do with that person is
lay your cards out on the lineas to where you're at and what
(20:50):
your reality is, and give themspace to speak honestly to you.
And as somebody who was a bit ofa cynic in my employee days
Holly, I'm willing to admit,especially growing up in Britain
we're a little bit more passive, aggressive than here in
America is I felt that if Idisagreed with my boss, they
would just hate me and we wouldhave a fight and then I'd get
(21:11):
fired.
So I was very good at noddingalong and smiling and saying,
yes, I'll do that, and thenleaving the room and having no
intention of doing it.
Looking back, I wish somebodyhad said to me I can see you
disagree with this, howell, or Ican see you have challenges
with me.
Please tell me what they are.
You will not be in trouble,it's okay, but if you cannot
(21:34):
come along on this change, youwill not be here for very long
and I don't want that to happen.
So speak up.
So actually it's that top leftpotential saboteur group that we
need to be aware of, active onand considering that that's
where our time needs to be spentto get the best long-term
(21:55):
output.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, I completely agree with you on the cards on
the table.
I'm one who constantly tells myleaders, when they are having
to deal with a toughconversation with someone, that
you're actually doing right bythem that yes, it's a tough
conversation, you don't want tohurt their feelings or hurt them
or discourage them, but you'reactually helping them by being
honest with them, by lettingthem know where they stand and
(22:18):
what the future is going to looklike if it continues this way,
but that you also want to be ontheir team.
You want to see them learn andgrow and and engage, but in a
way that is is productive andhealthy for the culture and for
the overall team and thereforeorganization.
But absolutely being able tohave those, those honest
conversations, is not alwayseasy, but is very vital for sure
(22:41):
.
Now, along with that, we have alot of change that takes place
within leaders, whether it beleaders growing into different
roles or even leaders leaving togo to different organizations,
which can be a good thing too.
I know some of those I've hadthe pleasure of mentoring, I've
loved having on my team and Iwant to keep them, but I always
(23:04):
want to invest and grow in themin a way that I want to see them
excel and even fly by me right,and I want to be there to cheer
them on and be in their corner.
So it can be a good thing whenpeople leave also.
So any tips for leadersdesiring to build their
leadership bench?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Of course, what's interestingabout most people who move up
into leadership is you were goodat the job below it, as it were
.
Very few of us get moved upbecause we showed some skill in
leadership.
We simply weren't able to, somost of us are flying pretty
blind when we set out.
So what really are you tryingto achieve as a leader?
(23:47):
Obviously, you're trying toachieve great results for your
group, whatever that may be.
What does results mean for yourteam?
Great, actually.
What's the second biggest thingyou're doing as a leader is the
development of your people.
I would say that, actually, ifyour people are sitting there,
not growing and not developing,you are missing a major part of
(24:11):
leadership.
It's nice to have a stable teamfor a long time, but in a
modern world, I just don't thinkthat's a reality anymore.
We don't look at work in thesame way as we used to.
Honestly, you're really luckyto keep somebody in exactly the
same role for two to three yearsnow.
You're doing a great job atkeeping them.
(24:32):
So I do think it's always aboutlooking at their growth, but I
also think it's about workingwith them to understand that
growth doesn't always meanpromotion or the next step up
the ladder.
I know people who moved intoleadership and realized it
wasn't for them at all.
They enjoyed doing the job.
(24:54):
Maybe they wanted to make a bitmore money doing it, or they
wanted an opportunity to dodifferent things but actually
once they got there theyrealized they'd taken a missed
turn.
So what I would encourageleaders to do is start much
earlier with people on theconversations about where do
they think their life is going.
(25:14):
Do they want promotion andchange and growth?
If so, what does that mean tothem?
But get them understanding theopportunities of where they can
go, what growth can be.
Even if you stay in the samerole, you can feel much more
fulfilled next year than thisyear.
I'm not pushing this oneverybody by any stretch, but I
(25:35):
had a very personal choice that,as somebody who in my first two
jobs had faked dentistappointments so I could go for
interviews because I knew thatthey would be angry at me for
looking for a new job, I wasvery keen with my team that that
wasn't a feeling, that theydidn't turn up one day with a
resignation letter and just sayI'm out of here, howell.
(25:56):
So I made this very big thingof if you're unhappy, come and
tell me.
This is not a job for life.
Most of them were fresh out ofuniversity.
If I had them for two years,holly, I was doing very well and
I was very proud of myself.
My role was definitely to getthem to be promoted internally,
but me personally, I felt myrole was just to help them to
(26:17):
see opportunities in life andthe world and where they can go.
And to your point earlier on,yes, many of them went off to be
much more successful and richerthan I am and couldn't be
prouder of them.
I'm very proud of myself that Iwas a little piece of that.
So people would say they weremiserable and they would tell me
they're unhappy.
It's safe in the knowledge thatI wouldn't take that personally
(26:41):
.
It's a job.
We want to be paid well, wewant to enjoy what we do, but
each one is a stepping stone tosomewhere.
Maybe we stay for a long time,maybe it doesn't work, but I
think what leaders can look atis seeing a major piece of your
role as that progression, asbuilding plans with people so
(27:02):
that when it happens, it happensthe way you want, not some
surprise of I'm just not comingin on Monday.
I'm done.
And just to go back to theconversation we were just having
, but in Britain, holly, it'smuch harder to get somebody out
of your organization.
We don't have at-willemployment.
It takes months and months andyou have to have meetings.
(27:23):
And so actually, as a verynon-confrontational person, I
was very bad at this, butbecause I was forced by HR to go
through a process, I was forcedto be more deliberate with
underperformers, but withover-performers I did more
naturally want to see themsucceed.
So I am not claiming in any way, holly, that I'm a perfect
(27:45):
manager.
We all have our strengths andweaknesses and we need to accept
that.
But I would push us all to seeteam development, team future
and planning as a major part.
So nothing is a surprise.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
That is, though, because I love the truly I'm not
even sure engagement is theright word but care that you
just expressed in showing theteam, because I, too, have been
there, where I left for a jobpromotion and something I really
wanted to do in preparation formy future, and my former boss
(28:23):
was not in no way a cheerleader,if anything, it was anti and
con, and it was just like wait,what?
Why aren't you happy for me?
Why aren't you cheering me on?
Why are, all of a sudden, youturned into my enemy, and I'll
never forget leaving there, andit was sad for something that I
felt should have been soexciting and a dream, so to
(28:45):
speak.
I felt very discouraged, and soI've tried to really make sure
that, as a leader myself, thatit is always.
Yeah, it's not about every oneis replaceable at a job, I feel,
but they should be able toreach for their dreams, right,
so we can find the next personto fill that slot, but that
(29:06):
person who's currently fillingthat slot, we should be able to
encourage them and cheer them onin whatever they want to do,
and sometimes we are a steppingstone in the path of where
they're going, and I want to bea part of that that they have
good memories with.
I want to be a part of thatthat helped them grow, both in
tough times as well as in goodtimes, but that helped them get
(29:28):
to that next stepping stone too,and not something where, oh
you're here, you need to stayhere for 10 years or you're a
horrible person.
It's like, no, you know, whileyou're here, let me pour into
you and then let me just cheeryou on as you go on to what
really fills you.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
And people will work harder and stay longer if
they're building that futurewith you rather than having to
plan a future behind your back.
So, again, lovely, if we cankeep wonderful people, that'd be
great.
If we can promote thosewonderful people, let's do that.
But if somebody is not going tobe here in five years, let's
get the best out of them now.
(30:03):
And on a purely personal level,holly, I think it's really sad
when we don't remember aworkplace positively, one where
we were for a long time,invested a lot of our life in
eight to 10 hours a day, morethan we see our children to
remember it negatively is sadfor everybody.
Let's get a great job out ofthem, let's all work as hard as
(30:24):
we can, but we should rememberthese moments in life with a
positive spin and joy for thepeople we worked with and who
worked for us.
And so, again, I do not claim Ihit this 100%, holly, but it's
lovely that I have many peoplewho used to work for me still on
Facebook, who send me littleupdates of what they're doing
and where they are and watchingthese massive job titles come
(30:44):
through, and I feel a little bitproud that I had a small piece
of that.
They did that on their own, butI was a little part of that
growth in their early years andthat brings great joy to me.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yeah, oh, I so agree, and none of us are going to hit
the mark right, but we're allgrowing in the process and even
some of those tough leaders.
We can learn what we do ordon't want to do in our own
leadership and even our ownfailures.
Hopefully we can feel forwardand learn from them and do it
differently the next time.
So you mentioned a couple ofthings One, how much COVID has
(31:17):
impacted even our continuationof how we do employment, how
that looks, what that looks like, and then also even connections
of how you can still stay incontact with people on Facebook
and social media and so forth.
So, with that, so many arestill working virtually right.
That just found to be a goodbusiness setup for many
(31:39):
organizations as well, as, whenpeople leave, you can stay in
contact with them social mediawise.
How can you continue to buildand maintain that strong
relationship with employees whoare still working remotely?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Well, a big one I'll throw in is in a remote world.
What you don't want to do iscreate the worst of what office
life was, which was when yourleader or boss sat 20 yards away
but stayed in their littleoffice or ignored you completely
until there was a problem.
So them just walking towardsyou, your heart would sink Like,
(32:13):
oh my God, something awful hashappened.
What is it going to be In avirtual world that's recreated,
unfortunately, when we onlycontact somebody when there's an
issue?
So I would heartily recommendto all leaders to be much more
deliberate about regular Zoomcalls, phone calls.
Whatever we do at Teams,however, we get in touch with
(32:34):
people, but at different momentsfor different reasons.
So the phone ringing or a Zoomcall appearing on my calendar
doesn't fill me with dread as anemployee that clearly I'm about
to get screamed at or even justnicely told I've done something
wrong.
There should be a mix of how wediscourse and chat with them.
(32:55):
So a big one I'd push is makerandom calls.
So when you have a few minutes,just call one of your team
members and they'll probablypick up.
They work for you.
They're probably not going toavoid your call If they're
really busy and can't do it, sobe it.
Make that very clear that it'snot required.
If they red button the call, noissue.
(33:18):
But if they pick up, just havea chat.
So back to what we were talkingabout later on, those little
moments of intimacy.
I'm not calling because there'sa problem.
I'm not calling because we haveto get this thing done in five
minutes.
I'm just calling to see what'sgoing on today and what you're
doing and what you're doing thisevening and are you having a
good time?
And can I be of use while I'mhere?
(33:38):
I've got 15 minutes.
Have you got any questions forme?
We can just have a little chatand then tomorrow I might call
because there's a problem, butyou won't just dread it in that
terrible way.
And again, certainly notclaiming I nailed all of this,
but for the last 10 years now Ihad a remote team and we had one
of the closest relationshipsjust on this idea that, using
(34:01):
Skype back in the day we had agroup chat and you would just
call it and if anyone wasavailable they'd pick up, and it
was actually the best bit ofoffice life, which is I've got
somebody to chat to but, unlikean office, I don't have to talk
to them, I can not pick up or Ijust can do something else in an
office.
They know you're not doinganything, they can see it, but
here it was.
Just it brought these littlemoments of joy to what is
(34:22):
otherwise hard Working remotelyby yourself.
Whatever our job is has itschallenges.
So make the positive out of it.
So make those little randomcalls as and when.
But also in those call moments,don't just make it about the
problem.
If we do have to talk about aproblem, I try and make every
(34:44):
call have something good that'sgoing on that we can discuss and
a challenge.
As much as possible.
Try and balance out eachinteraction, because if we put
the phone down or hang up on aZoom call from just a big
problem, that puts us on anegative now for the next few
hours or days even.
So, again, if we are speaking,let's try and balance it out.
(35:06):
Some good has happened.
Don't worry.
There is also a challenge.
We'll need to get to that.
But I should come off thinkinga good, useful chat with my boss
, not.
Oh my God, the world is fallingand I've got to deal with it.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, oh, I like that , I like that, I like that a lot
.
Now, along with the change ofremote work or even flexibility
right, so many are workingdifferent, flexible work
schedules.
There's also other changes ofincreasing people having side
gigs right, people doing somethings that are different than
what they're doing a job as, orstarting new businesses on their
(35:38):
own, on the side or a hobbythat they enjoy that they're
getting a little bit morepassionate about.
That is taking more of aninterest in An intense focus on
diversity and equality, andinclusion has really been a
focus within the workforce.
Even challenges of change, ofhaving a new boss, as we've
talked about earlier, greater ormore competition, so many more
people, so many more businessesstarting up right and popping up
(36:00):
everywhere, and even the impactof artificial intelligence I
mean, that's a part ofeveryone's job, it seems and
fears that can stir up on will Istill have my job or what does
this look like?
So, whether it be good or badchange, what are some of the
emotional ups and downs that wemight experience and how can we
kind of navigate those as aleader or an employee?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Well, let's dive and change a little bit here,
because you're right, we live ina world now where change is
just inevitable.
As an interesting number in1960, holly, the average
lifespan of a Fortune 500company was expected to be about
60 years.
So that's how long you expectedto stay a big company.
What do you think is theaverage lifespan of a Fortune
500 company today, holly?
(36:44):
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (36:45):
I don't even know what to guess.
If it was 60 years, I'd sayit's definitely dropped.
So 30, 40?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, even more than that.
18 years now is the averagelifespan of our biggest
companies.
So some of that is mergers, buta lot of that is just companies
coming and going.
The BlackBerry movie if youhaven't seen it, is just
fascinating.
It still exists as a name, butthat rise and fall of a brand in
(37:13):
like an eight or nine yearperiod was just incredible.
And we're all part of thatworld now.
So we're all facing change allthe time.
So what's going on?
Is that actually, even if wesay we're good at change, status
quo bias is a powerful force inall of us.
We want basically each day tobe much the same.
(37:33):
We couldn't live life ifeverything was different every
single day.
It would just be impossible.
If you've had a day, holly, oranyone listening has had one of
those days where everything washard, everything was challenging
, by like seven o'clock you'redone, you've got nothing left,
you're snapping at people.
Those are the days where it'sjust a struggle.
So that's why we try and keeppatterns.
(37:55):
What's the status quo?
How much can I keep the same?
So when something new comes in,small or big, there are natural
forces within us saying I'drather just stay where I am.
So preference.
Stability says once I've chosensomething, I'll just stick with
it.
So if you've done training,holly, and people come in, once
they sit in a chair, it's theirchair, that's it.
(38:17):
If you ask them to move,they're genuinely angry that
they're going to a differentchair.
Even the chair next door, itdoesn't matter.
I've made this choice, let mejust stay where I am.
The other big one is anticipatedregret and blame.
Ie.
What I'm worried about is mylife getting worse.
Whatever the change is even agood change.
(38:38):
I'm comfortable here.
I don't want to think about thealternatives.
So in studies, what they'veshown is that people are more
comfortable with unhappinessthan we are with uncertainty.
So literally, we'd rather stayin a miserable position than
change.
I'm using miserable in anextreme sense, but actually, if
(38:58):
we all think back on jobs wewere in at some point, we look
back now and go, oh, I stayedtoo long, it wasn't a good idea,
it wasn't working.
Why did I stay?
Because at least we know it.
We may not love it, but we knowit, and change is hard.
So for all of us, employees andbosses, it's realizing that a
big change at work is not theonly thing going on in that
(39:19):
person's life.
There are hundreds of theselittle changes going on, each
one affecting the other.
So big things at home willaffect you at work, big things
at work will affect you at home,and sometimes the smallest
little change throws you overthe edge.
I remember coming into workonce and my boss had moved my
desk about 12 inches, like notfar, kind of twisting it, and I
(39:43):
just flipped out and spent thewhole day stomping about and
complaining and I don't know whyit annoyed me so much, but I
think it was just a culminationof many, many things.
So again, giving employeesspace to speak, definitely, but
also just realizing that how youemotionally react to a change
is not the same as them.
They may be more overawed by it, find it much more challenging
(40:07):
for a reason you don'tunderstand.
But, like you say, they mightbe working two or three jobs or
they might have a side thingthat they're going on, all of
which is playing on theiremotional draining every day.
And AI, let's face it, is aworry in many people's minds.
Now, what will it mean?
How much is it going to changethe work we're doing, especially
(40:28):
if it already is affecting thework we're doing?
So, as people have these littlemoments again.
The biggest thing I challengewith people is don't expect
people to react the way you do.
What is?
The empathetic view of theirsituation may be different to
mine.
They're not right or wrong orbetter or worse than me.
(40:49):
They're just reactingdifferently.
How can I understand wherethey're coming from?
Try and get the best I need formy job, whilst understanding
that this human also has otherthings happening in their life.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah, oh, that's so true.
I teach a women's Sunday schoolclass on Sundays and I, as part
of the lesson one Sunday, I hadthem all change seats.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Right.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
It was.
It was just part of the lesson,but I still hear about that yeah
you remember that Sunday thatyou had the ladies switch seats
and it's like, oh my goodness, Ididn't realize how life
shattering that would be.
But it was a great opportunityfor me also to kind of put
myself in their shoes and go, oh, wow, yeah, like I can see how
just that one change impacted.
(41:36):
Because I know when thingschange for me, I am not one to
go woohoo, I'm so excited tochange.
I go silent and it's just, I'mnot mad, I'm not frustrated, I'm
not on board, but I just needto process the change and
tomorrow I'll probably be fine,or maybe a week from now I'll be
fine.
Right now we're going through asituation where someone recently
(41:59):
did a change and I can tell youit's been about three or four
weeks and I'm still not there.
But I also know that we alljust process the change
differently.
So that's so important toremember, to put ourselves in
other people's shoes.
But then also, everyone has astory we know nothing about,
right, and that change mighthave been one more change in
(42:22):
their life.
So how can leaders help theirteams process and adapt and even
embrace change, whether it befrom day to day, to procedures
and policies, to eventransitions and responsibilities
and roles?
Speaker 2 (42:35):
So there's two big reasons here.
Number one is helping peopleunderstand how change works.
It is amazing how little wereally understand about what
happens as we go through achange.
I was taught the change curvesthat I mentioned earlier when I
became a leader, and all Iremember thinking is this is not
leadership advice, this is justhuman advice.
(42:56):
Why have I never seen this?
And it's, honestly, the singlepiece of science I have shown
more and helped more people withover the years, which is, as
they are going through the toughtimes of change again, even a
positive change having a baby,getting married, starting a new
job.
As you're on that emotional dip, what you're thinking, of
course, is why aren't I enjoyingthis?
(43:18):
Why is everyone telling me I'msupposed to be loving this and
I'm hating every minute of it?
Or I'm worried about theresults Having children children
especially because you've beentold since you were born that
this was the most joyous thingthat was going to happen to you,
and it's incredibly harddealing with your first baby and
yours is crying, and all thebabies on Facebook don't seem to
(43:40):
be crying.
And so just helping somebodyunderstand, don't worry, this is
what everybody has gone through.
So if you just type changecurves.
Into Google it'll give you agreat little picture of it, but
there's natural ups and downs.
I'll give you a quick story.
A friend of mine back at homein the UK but her mom was
actually the first ever winnerof the Euro millions lottery,
(44:02):
which is kind of our Powerballthat covers Europe.
It's not quite Powerball money,but it was £45 million.
She won on a Friday night verynormal family in Newcastle where
I grew up by Sunday morning shewas sitting on her living room
floor crying her eyes out,screaming I don't want it, I
don't want it, just take it away.
(44:23):
And honestly, she never reallycame out perfectly at the end of
it.
You know that's a hell of atransition to go through when
you're, you know, past 18, as itwere.
And so again, this thing we allthink well, if we won the
lottery, all our problems wouldbe solved, life would just be
amazing.
It just creates a whole new setof problems and takes you on a
(44:44):
bizarre emotional journey thatyou couldn't possibly understand
.
So number one is helping them tounderstand that you're not
doing anything wrong and you'renot a bad person because you're
struggling with this change,even if this change was supposed
to be a positive thing.
So literally walk them throughthe change curves, but be a
sounding board for them.
(45:05):
Where are you at the moment?
Where's your head at?
The second big thing we can do,holly, is give them control of
it in some way.
It's the difference.
You sort of alluded to itearlier.
You know this changes theperson is doing.
It's like this isn't my changes, change is being done to me, or
this being changes to beingdone around me, me, and I'm just
(45:25):
being forced to go along withit.
That's why we naturally willpush back.
I didn't want this.
This wasn't my choice, so I'mnot going to do what I should do
.
We have to have some feelingthat it's for me, about me, or
by me, to go.
Okay, then I will come intothis.
(45:45):
Now, maybe it's not as muchcontrol as I would like, maybe
it's not going to happen exactlythe way I want it to, but the
moment a change is announced,what you want to be saying to
people is how would you likethis to happen and what do you
want to do to make this work foryou?
These things have to happen.
That isn't going to changeCompanies, changing this
division.
(46:05):
That's the news.
But beyond that, how much can Igive you the chance to make
choices?
Take control and make your ownchanges.
Then even cynical people haveto at least do something to make
it work for them, hopefullybringing them through.
But, as we talked about earlier, it's not going to work 100% of
the time, but you're givingthem the best tools you can.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
And that's often what we're doing as leaders right,
we're trying to put the tools intheir toolbox, but they decide
what they use, when they use it,if they're even going to use it
.
So we can only do the best thatwe can do.
Also, Now, you've worked with alot of top worldwide and even
high-end companies Starbucks,New York Live, Coca-Cola,
Tiffany Company.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
What are some top leadership tips that you've seen
?
Stick out from such brands.
I'm not going to put it on thebrands actually I'm not being
negative about any of the brandsI've worked for but I'm going
to say that it doesn't matterwhat your company is.
You could be a one-personoutfit or Starbucks is hundreds
of thousands of people.
It still comes down to a leadertrying to make their best
choices.
So we'll all like to think thata big company, big brand, has
(47:17):
nailed some magical way offixing this, but it's really not
true at all.
But I think each leader willfind their best route.
I was lucky.
So it was a newspaper.
I worked for the FinancialTimes newspaper.
They'd been around for 140years, so they had a stable
knowledge of how this worked,what they were doing, and the
leadership group that I cameinto was fantastic.
(47:39):
So I have almost universallypositive stories about those
years and I did learn lots ofpositive things to recreate when
I got there.
As you said earlier on, I alsolearned some of the things I
definitely wasn't going to dofrom leaders I'd met before then
.
And then you make your ownmistakes.
But I think the best we can sayno matter what the brand is, but
(48:01):
what company are you givingyour leaders the chance to be
the best version of themselves?
There are certain things weneed to do as leaders, of course
, certain tick box things thatneed to do and certain
expectations we have, butthere's no such thing as a
perfect leader.
Steve Jobs was an incredibleleader, but by most accounts, he
(48:23):
was a horrible person most ofthe time.
So he was doing somethingincredibly well, but other
things.
You would point at him and say,well, I wouldn't work for that
person.
That's not the leader thatwould work for me.
All we can do is be the bestversion of ourselves.
So when I do see an organizationthat's working, that's really
in flow and getting the best,when you meet the leaders, what
(48:46):
you can see is that they arevery individual.
They are bringing each ofthemselves to the room, to their
team, without being forced tobe a certain type or expected to
manage in a certain way.
But it does not have to be abig brand for that.
If you are a small company andyou're taking on your first real
(49:07):
leader other than you, it'sstill the same idea.
Don't expect them to be you.
Allow them to be the leaderthey need to be, whilst giving
them all the advice and ideasyou can but shaping.
Of the thousand things we haveto do as a leader, what's the
hundred I'm going to be amazingat?
Let me focus on them.
(49:28):
Get better at as many of theothers that I can without
forcing myself to be somethingthat's never going to be my
strength.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Well said, well said.
Now here on Holly's Highlightspodcast, we have a signature
question that if you could goback and encourage, inspire or
even equip yourself as a child,what would you tell your young
self?
Speaker 2 (49:51):
I would tell myself something that I have now
learned.
But because I moved to America,I'm going to give you all
complete credit for this,everybody.
So I absolutely love living inAmerica.
I came here in 2008.
I was 32, just upped my lifeand moved over with the
newspaper that I was with.
What I instantly noticed becauseit's almost impossible not to
(50:12):
notice when you move fromBritain here is how much more
direct people are with you.
So in Britain there's a lot ofdancing around before you tell
somebody that they've donesomething wrong, or there's a
lot of niceness when you'rereally saying you know, those
shoes are terrible and youshouldn't be wearing them.
Like there's a lot of lovelyshoes.
And I got here and people wouldjust say to me no, that's not
(50:34):
right, howell, that's not what Iwanted.
And I'd be like what, where'sthe dancing about?
Where's the politeness?
Like, oh my God.
But then I met an American womanwho is the most wonderful woman
in the world and I adore her tobits, and she taught me that it
was okay to disagree without itbeing a fight or without it
meaning that we didn't like eachother.
(50:56):
And so, again, I'm certainlynot claiming we have a perfect
marriage, but we have awonderful marriage because we
now disagree and then discuss it.
But at work it was a revelationto me that it's okay to say I
don't like that, or I disagreewith this, or I'd like to do it
differently, and if you do itrespectfully and courteously and
(51:18):
professionally, you will getthat as a response 99% of the
time and the 1% we can't doanything about.
So there's no point planningfor it.
But everybody else actuallydoes want to know what you think
.
So, as I say, I would hidebehind smiles and say, yes,
that's wonderful, I'll do thatand leave the room and just not
do it.
And looking back now, how muchfurther I could have got or
(51:40):
problems we could have fixed IfI just said I've got a different
idea.
Here's what I want to try.
But it was true of myfriendships, life, everything
until I got to America, holly.
So congratulations to you all.
You've made me better.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
That's great.
That's great.
I actually like that becauseyou know, whenever people ask,
like, if you were a superhero,what superhero would you be?
Or you know what talent wouldyou have, or whatever and I'm
always like I just want to belike a fly on the wall because I
want to hear the truth.
I want to hear what people aresaying not in front of you,
(52:15):
right, because I'm very muchjust shoot it to me straight and
I want to know what people arethinking and feeling and I want
them to be honest with me and Iwant to be open and receptive to
that too.
I really appreciate those hardconversations and I appreciate
and value really appreciatethose hard conversations and I
appreciate and value the courageto be able to have them.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
So I love that.
I love that you shared that,and what I say a lot with
feedback now is if you ask thosepeople what's the best piece of
feedback you ever received,it's something they didn't like
hearing at the time, but ithelped you tremendously.
No, it probably wasn't fun, butwe don't get better.
It's nice to be told you'rewonderful, but what really helps
you is somebody telling you thehonest, godless truth that you
knew was hard for them.
(52:53):
That's what's going to give youthe most value.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
So true, so true.
Our leaders often will ask eachother what do I need to hear
that I don't want to hear?
And it's giving that permissionto share it.
But, yeah, we definitely needto be ready for it too, because
it's important.
So, yep, well, great Hal, thankyou so much for joining us
today.
How can our listeners connectfurther with you?
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Yeah, wonderful.
So I'm the only Howell Berry inthe entire world.
So if you get my spelling fromthe show notes folks, I'm very
easy to find online.
But at howellberrycom is myspeaker page.
But my company is AlicornLearning.
So alicornlearningcom, where wework with brands, as you say,
all over the world, all types ofcompanies, from literal
startups of two people tomassive brands, but anything
(53:39):
that can just help you as a team, as a leader, any challenges
you're facing, we will doeverything we can to support you
and move you forward.
So love to hear from people.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Wonderful.
Thank you again, Hal.
We appreciate you investingyour time and your talent with
us today.
Truly, it was a pleasure havingyou.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Thank you very much indeed.
Speaker 1 (53:59):
Thank you for joining me on this journey of life.
I hope that today's highlighthas been encouraging, inspiring
and equipping so you can go outand live your life full of
purpose.
I'd be honored if you'd take amoment to leave a review or,
better yet, subscribe.
We can also stay in touch byjoining my email list at
hollykirbycom.
(54:20):
That's H-O-L-L-Y-C-U-R-B-Ycom.
Until next time, make it agreat day for a great day.
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