June 20, 2024 • 58 mins
“The only thing that works to take down abusers is Mo Ryan writes something about them."
If we weren’t already on fire to talk with the author of Burn It Down: Power, Complicity, and a Call for Change in Hollywood, this quote from a confessor would have set us aflame. This week we get our chance, as entertainment journalist Maureen “Mo” Ryan steps into the confessional booth.
Mo is a Contributing Editor at Vanity Fair, and has written for Entertainment Weekly, the New York Times, EW, Salon, GQ, and Vulture. She has spent much of the last decade writing in-depth pieces on matters of inclusion, misconduct and abuse in Hollywood -- and on efforts to make the industry better.
Join us for an eye-opening conversation as Mo unpacks the complex web of power dynamics in Hollywood, the need for a safe and empowering space for marginalized voices to be heard, and what makes her hopeful for the future of the entertainment industry.
Connect with us:
Check out some of our favorite shows:
- Screenwriters' Rant Room
- Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss
- It Happened in Hollywood
- The Secret History of Hollywood
Hollywood Confessional is a Ninth Way Media production, produced by Meagan Daine and J.R. Zamora-Thal.
Sound Effects and Music provided by Zapsplat and Pixabay.
Keywords: filmmaking podcast, film podcast, screenwriting podcast, entertainment podcast, Hollywood, filmmaking, writerslife, actorslife, setlife
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
In nomine Cinema e TV Espiritu Streaming Amen.
Hello Hollywood, faithful, weare back with another amazing
episode of the HollywoodConfessional and on this episode
(00:22):
we've got a very, very specialguest.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
That's right.
First of all, special guest JRDe.
We've got a very, very specialguest, that's right.
First of all, special guest JRDeMorathal, who forgot to
introduce himself.
Yeah, you're the guy, and I'mMegan Dane.
And this week we have criticand journalist Maureen Ryan,
also known as Mo.
She has an incredible resume.
She was a contributing editorat Vanity Fair, she's written
for Entertainment Weekly, NewYork Times, EW, Salon, GQ the
(00:46):
list goes on and on and on.
And she is also the author ofBurn it Down, Power, Complicity
and A Call for Change inHollywood, which is a subject
very near to our hearts here onthe Hollywood Confessional.
So welcome, Mo, and thank youso much for joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Thank you for having me.
I love being introduced.
I feel like I wish my wholelife was being introduced,
because I sound fancy.
I'm not just understand that,I'm just like you.
I am looking down to see if myt shirt is clean.
It is.
Yeah, I love the whole conceptof your podcast Because, you
know, that's a weird gray areathat I'm in all the time where
(01:23):
people are like, should I do xor y, or what should I do?
What can I do?
It's there's, there's notreally easy answers to any of it
and you know, I thinkcontinuing to just at least have
a forum to talk about thesedifficult things, you know, or
just it's confusing, like anyonein any job is often confused
(01:45):
about what to do about asituation with, you know, a
problematic situation.
But I think in this industry is, you know, it's the whole
reason I wrote my book is that,you know, it's just that the
disincentives are huge and thosehave not really gone away.
Like we wouldn't be having thisconversation and you wouldn't
have this podcast if it was likewell, we fixed it.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, right, yeah, that's right.
We, we definitely want to getinto that and we were very
excited about the concept ofyour book when it came out,
because we're like, oh, this isthe thing, but oh my God, like
their name and names and likethe victim's names and the
perpetrator's names, and so whatis the cost of people coming
(02:22):
forward, like on our podcast?
Our whole thing was we'recoming from a background of
being support staffers, beinglike the low people on the totem
pole and like you cannot saycertain things.
Oh, god, no, no.
You will never work in this townagain, right?
So we wanted to create thisanonymous forum, but then by
doing so we have to, kind of bydefault, not name names of the
(02:46):
perpetrators, and sometimesthat's very frustrating and we
wish we could say who didsomething.
But what is the cost, do youthink, for people who do come
forward?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
That's a really interesting question.
I really honestly, I think a lotof the cost is paid kind of
ahead of time, like on theprepaid plan.
You know, and you know a lot ofpeople come to me and I'm
essentially, I think now maybeto some degree, a resource for
people in many walks of life,but especially in the industry.
You know, when someone'senduring something that they
(03:17):
shouldn't be enduring, whateverthat is, and it's a pattern and
they like whatever attemptsthey've made to address the
situation, if they've made any,and sometimes, as you say, they
can't Quite often there's aprocess of like asking around,
like close friends, you knowfamily, like whoever you can,
and so a lot of the time on thejourney I'm one of those people.
(03:38):
That, or a reporter, is one ofthose people and I honestly
think weirdly enough, I mean,part of the reason I'm so
excited about being on yourpodcast and the concept of your
podcast is what I've done.
You're only seeing the top ofthe glacier.
A lot of what I've done is outof sight and I'm okay with that,
but I essentially I do wantpeople to feel, you know,
(04:02):
information can be power and Ithink that a lot of times,
especially for support staff,for crew, like, just for anyone
and I'm talking to people at theupper levels or established
people for anyone this can be adifficult process to navigate,
but especially for the peoplewith the least power, it's
incredibly fraught.
So I think people do pay a cost, and that is in this question
(04:25):
of before you even start thatprocess of asking around or
talking to people, there's thecost of is this all in my head?
And then there's the slow, drip, drip, of sort of like the slow
and steady attack on yourself-esteem because you think,
and the industry is training youto think a lot of people,
because you think and theindustry is training you to
(04:47):
think a lot of people.
I can't cut it.
It's me, I'm the problem.
Again, a huge, huge reason I'vedone the work that I've done and
written the book that I wroteis because I want to sit here
and tell you, as someone who'sbeen around this industry for
more than 30 years, no one'sperfect.
Yes, in certain situations maybeyou are the problem or you have
made a mistake.
That's a given but a lot of thetime, what I'm witnessing and
(05:12):
what I'm hearing about issomeone being made to feel that
they cannot trust their ownsenses, their own mind, their
own emotions, their own reaction, and that, you know, bugs me
quite a bit, as you can imagine.
I do think that that's changingin the sense of the following I
(05:33):
do think that, again, thatearly stage of should I talk to
anyone?
Am I at fault here?
What is going on?
Am I wrong?
Who can I talk to to?
I do think and you can tell meif you disagree that stage I
hope for some people is lesstorturous, because I do think
(05:53):
that there's a sense that it's adifficult, brutal industry on a
good day I mean the highs arehigh, don't?
I mean you guys, you know,you've been in the trenches, you
get it.
The highs are high, don't Imean you guys?
You know, you've been in thetrenches, you get it.
The highs are high.
The parts that make it worth itmake it worth it, but the lows
and the dangers are very extremeand very, very difficult to
navigate.
So I do think you know thiscost that we're talking about.
(06:18):
I hope that all of us togetheras a group whether that's
friends, other support staff,other senior people with good
intentions and good actions andgood histories, reporters I
think that hopefully we havemade it less difficult to start
that process of what should I doabout this?
And you know, as I said manytimes in my book, I do think
(06:41):
we're still at the early stageseven with that.
So, but the cost you know.
I think probably the ultimatequestion that may be embedded in
what you asked is am I going todestroy my career if I try to
do something about X?
Am I going to wreck my future?
I am not overly prone tooptimism, but I honestly think
(07:02):
that that doesn't have to be thecase necessarily anymore,
something I you know I didn'tsay it in my book flat out, but
I'm really proud of this.
The very first story I didposed me to the first big
workplace misconduct story I did.
I had 19 sources and none ofthem blew up their career
(07:24):
because none of them used theirnames.
This has been a very big partof my career, a very big focus
that honestly again, I'm glad tohave this opportunity Within my
reporting process.
I certainly don't want to tellother reporters how to do their
jobs.
There's a lot of people doingreally good work for super duper
(07:44):
, huge amounts of money.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
Journalism.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Don't do it kids.
So I have made it a priority inmy career to give people
autonomy within the process oftalking to me and I kind of like
, over the years, developed kindof a pitch and my pitch is in
the maybe in the first 10conversations, but certainly in
the first five conversations,the first three or first one.
(08:10):
We're off the record.
We're talking one human beingto the other.
You can ask me what you need toask me.
I will ask you what I think Ineed to ask you.
If you decide, after thisconversation, the information I
got and where I'm at mentallyand physically with my life and
professionally, I don't want tomove forward.
(08:31):
I'm glad we met.
I wish you the best.
Everything in the vault getslocked away and never spoken of
again.
I've had a million conversationslike that.
So I give people autonomywithin the process to decide
what's right for them.
And, man, if you want to makeme, if you want to see me go
(08:51):
zero to 60,.
Really furious is when anyonepressures someone to use their
name in this industry.
I want to punch their lightsout.
I want to punch their lightsout a lot, and I don't cause I'm
like a Buddhist their lightsout a lot and I don't because
I'm like a buddhist stupid, butI'm like.
There's nothing in this worldthat makes me more angry than
(09:13):
pressuring a person withoutpower to do something for the
reporter's career, not for thatperson's.
Yep, if you think oh, mo's hada this, you know certain kind of
track record as a reporter.
That track record is because Itreat human beings like human
beings and again, I'm not theonly one to do this.
I didn't invent that.
But, having been in thesetrenches of just reporting on
(09:37):
the industry for again over 30years, there are people who do
it to get to know famous people,to pretend they're friends with
famous people.
Ps, you're not.
It's an exchange of.
You do a story on me and myshow and then, even if we have a
great time please don't getinto this to take selfies with
famous people.
I'm begging you.
(09:57):
If you're wanting to be areporter, ps, why would you so?
My philosophy is it's not abouttaking someone down.
I have a very holistic andpersonal to me set of criteria
before I even do a story, andthat a lot of that revolves
around for the people concerned,how does this move the
(10:21):
situation forward for them?
How does this move thesituation forward for them and
what am I doing as a reporter?
That is new.
I mean, I've reported on in mycareer issues to do with
caregiving.
Hollywood does not care aboutpeople who have caregiving
responsibilities at all.
I've reported on issues to dowith people with disabilities
(10:41):
and accommodations.
Does Hollywood truly, reallyand truly care about
consistently makingaccommodations for those who
live with disabilities?
No, when I talk to people, ithas to be about how will this be
a thing that I can do legallyand journalistically, and my own
brain survives the processSometimes that's a little bit
(11:03):
iffy survives the process.
Sometimes that's a little bitiffy.
How can we do a thing thatmoves the situation forward and
highlight something that needsto be highlighted?
So the cost that we're talkingabout is I do have people come
to me and go.
Will I wreck my career if Icome and talk about this person?
(11:24):
I will tell you there is a verywealthy news anchor and someone
came to me and said thishappened, this is the situation,
and we talked a few times.
This person thought that theyhad documentation of what they
experienced.
It turns out they did not,because it was quite some time
ago, and I said I'll be honestwith you.
If you're the only personmaking this allegation against
(11:45):
this very famous anchor whoworks for a very powerful
network, I think you will regretit.
Wow.
And honestly, as a reporter, Iwasn't sure that I had the goods
either, because, like a lot ofwhat I have to do too in those
early conversations is figureout, can I even pitch this to an
editor Once I pitch it to theeditor, if it's a hot potato
(12:07):
story, then they have to pitchit to legal and by the way.
I've had stuff pitched to legaland they say yeah, I mean I
think we can probably do it.
And then, like three monthslater, they're like oh, you know
, maybe not.
And I'm like oh no, you told meto do it.
So it's a very challengingprocedure, and none of that
(12:27):
procedure, for me, can proceedunless the person on the other
end of the phone or the Zoom orwhatever it is, you're in a safe
place.
If you tell me stuff, and then,a week later, you're like I'm
having a panic attack, I don'twant to go forward, I don't want
to come forward, I'm going todo this other stuff over here,
what I say to people is I wishyou all the best, let me know if
(12:49):
I can help.
Here's the thing.
I don't want to put any of usthrough that if it's not going
to be like a thing that helps.
So the flip side of everythingI just said, though, is oh dude,
if you had told me in 2017 thatI was going to speak the
following sentence, I would havebeen like no wrong.
(13:09):
This is inaccurate, but many,many people have found a
positive way forward from havingcome forward, and that is not
to say because, honestly,everyone in the industry is
sitting on a story where theycould go to the, that they could
get a press release.
That is not at all to say, youknow, like I'm a survivor, like
(13:31):
I think that that's a huge partof like kind of where my head is
at.
It's like you, if you'vesurvived something bad and
damaging on any in any way, youfigure out for you and your life
, life what's the way forward.
If I'm part of that, maybethat's a good thing for you.
If it's no longer the idealthing for you, then go over
there and do that thing, do this, do that, do the other.
(13:54):
I mean I'm actually reallyagain this is so weird I'm
having a very strange experienceof speaking optimistically
about this industry.
That was unexpected, but Icannot tell you how gratifying
it has been to talk to peoplewho felt that a burden had been
lifted and none of us reallythought that.
(14:17):
Do you know what I mean?
Like I don't.
Like I'll just say, for example, in my book there's a chapter
on the TV show lost cult show.
Very few people know about it.
You should look it up sometime.
I mean there's a few fans.
Honestly, you know, when I talkto sources, you know you're
seeing, okay, like there's sixquotes from this person, some
(14:39):
people I was talking to for likefour years before I began
working on that chapter inearnest and really I'm proud of
the book for a lot of reasons,but I'm proud of the fact that
it's the culmination of.
I think my approach to talkingto people made a number of
people feel safe enough to talkto me about those things and
(15:00):
sometimes using their names.
I walked up to Harold Perrineau, sometimes using their names.
I walked up to Harold Perrineauso we had done all this work,
he and I had been talking andthe book came out and talked
many times before it came out.
I didn't actually meet him inperson until the ATX festival,
four days before my book cameout.
Oh my God, three days after thelast chapter was online and my
(15:22):
life was just like a massiveexplosion.
And so I walked up to him and I, you know, tried to keep my
cool together.
But you know, once you guys getto know me, you'll understand
that I don't have any cool atall.
I kind of was like, why did youtrust me?
Like I still to this day, Ilook at the people and I look at
the track record that I haveand I'm like a lot of people
(15:44):
took a leap of faith, a lot, butI'm here to tell you that for
some people, when they made thedecision to come forward as a
group.
That's a huge part of my answerto your question.
I'm still answering your firstquestion, but you know, like,
okay, the cost that is paid?
Yes, there is a cost.
There's a cost and worry MostI've ever talked to.
(16:07):
Sometimes, even when I don't usesomebody name, somebody's name,
I'm very skilled at making sureI don't leave any enough
identifying information.
I mean, the thing is, someevery so often I'll say, well,
you were the only afro-latinawoman on that staff, so I think
they're gonna figure it outright.
Like you know, that person willbe like it's fine.
Like you know, whatever.
Like they determine the levelto which they're identifiable
(16:30):
and a lot of times they don'twant identifying information,
you know.
But no, I mean a lot of peopletook leaps of faith, but I think
you know, whether we're talkingabout the last chapter or other
big stories I've done they weretaking that leap of faith
together and behind the scenes astory where I thought I would
have six horses, suddenly I have22 because they all talk.
(16:52):
I mean, there are many timesthat people talk behind the
scenes about what to do aboutsomething and the first step is
to realize that I'm telling youyou're not alone.
You know, even if, let's say,in a particular production,
you're the only assistant thatseems to be getting singled out
by this person, that person hassingled people out before, on a
(17:12):
different movie or on adifferent set or whatever.
So, like, the first thing thatpeople need to understand is
that they're not alone.
And a lot of times people askhow many other people are going
to use their names and I tellthem.
I don't say who it is, but, like, my feeling about reporting on
this industry is that there isso much uncertainty and fear.
(17:33):
I don't want to be an unduesource of those things.
I will be as transparent as Ican be.
You know, mo Ryan's Pulitzer iswhen Lucas Till called me and
said I've reached my breakingpoint, I have to do something,
and like five different peopletold me to talk to you.
That, to me, was one of thenicest things I've ever heard,
(17:55):
which is you know how theindustry is, everyone talks.
Yep everyone's.
You know, like everyone, there'ssix degrees of separation of,
like you know, and I don't knowwhat, like I don't know a ton of
people in animation.
I don't know necessarily know aton of people in indie film,
but like you know what I mean,like there's enough crossover
that people talk.
And if you know what I say toother reporters sometimes not
that I need to tell most of themthis, but like don't be a jerk.
(18:18):
I mean because don't be a jerk,like just don't do that.
That seems.
But also everything I've gottenis when people come to me.
If you think I'm out there onVentura Boulevard with a sign
going like tell me your trauma,I'm not Like I should do that
Honestly.
That would be very upsetting.
It would be enlightening.
(18:39):
Like basically, I would never beable to move from that spot.
Nothing is certain in my gameor in yours.
There are ways that we canprotect ourselves, and one of
the biggest ways is throughgroup actions.
There was a story I did oncewhere a bunch of showrunners you
(19:00):
know, during the pandemic, Idon't have to tell you they were
trying to cut assistant paytrying to basically oh cool,
well, the pandemic's happening.
That seems bad.
What would be a good responseto that is to save a few pennies
by screwing over the people whomake the least money.
Let's do that.
I'm like, yeah, the year thatDavid Zaslav's making a quarter
(19:22):
billion, for sure, do it, let'sdo it.
Make that person who's barelymaking men's meat have to be in
their cover.
I love it, let's do it.
A bunch of showrunners for onestudio banded together and wrote
a letter to the studio andwe're basically like, well,
we're either going to, you know,basically in a preliminary way,
(19:43):
so we're either going to sendthis letter to you or we're
going to send it to Mo Ryan.
Which do you prefer?
Guess what?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Oh my God, that's amazing.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
One of those cuts in hours didn't happen, and so I
remember talking to one of theshowrunners who was kind of
behind that effort.
He's like I didn't.
He kind of didn't realize thatthey had that power, and I think
that that's something that Ithink and again, I'd love to get
your take on this.
The industry would love foreveryone to think that they're
(20:11):
powerless, right, they wouldlove it if everyone was just
like oh no, we're all going tobe homeless this fall, so we
shouldn't be striking.
No, people aren't powerless.
They would love you to thinkthat, though.
They would love everyone tothink that they're isolated.
There's no solidarity, there'sno camaraderie, there's no
altruism, there's no groupeffort that will work.
(20:32):
You're isolated and you shouldjust take whatever crumbs you
get.
And if you can't deal with thebrutal aspects of the industry,
you're the problem.
And I think there's been a lotof people just on a number of
fronts, whether it's, you know,labor actions, going to
reporters, going to studios, butit just, it, always it just.
(20:52):
It wowed me that that here's anestablished showrunner,
somebody who's been in the gamea long time, kind of not
realizing I'm like.
And I said to him I'm like youcan do this again, you know.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I mean, I think, like I love so much of what you're
saying and it really speaks to alot of the um, the stories that
we're getting Um, and the factthat people don't realize their
power and what a difference itcan make to take that it's like,
if you're going to, this is notthe right metaphor, but if
(21:27):
you're going to shoot, you gotto shoot to kill type of thing,
Right?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
So you have headshots only terrible.
I literally have phrased in mywork I'm like ma'am, we don't
have a kill shot yet, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Right, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Times when I've been on the phone with people and I'm
like literally in my mind goingokay, now I have three kill
shots, I'm good.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I would love to play one of the clips for an upcoming
episode that we have in whichyou, in fact, were named, but in
a good way, because it speaksto this very topic.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Hey, we have bless me episodes, okay, so it's not
just forgive me, a lot of peoplewhenever I meet them in person,
I'm like do take a selfie withme, print that out, put it on
the wall of your office.
Oh, lovely People know that.
You know this.
Everyone will see this podcast.
We are close friends, we hangout all the time and if anything
bad happens to you, Thank youbecause we have definitely
(22:23):
needed it ourselves and we knowmany people who also do.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Let's share an example.
This is a story of a group ofpeople who came together to
report on someone, and thennothing happened.
Speaker 5 (22:36):
So we went through the whole thing.
I told the journalist the story.
I told you guys about throwingmy friend's shoe for his dog and
the journalist said I don't getit.
And I said what don't you get?
And she was like I don't getwhat he did.
That was bad and what that saysabout him.
And my heart just sank.
If you don't understand theessential nature of a
(22:57):
narcissistic abuser, I don'tknow that you should be writing
these stories, because for methat shows that my friend wasn't
a person, that my friend'sproperty didn't matter, that he
could do this in front of peopleand no one would say anything.
I mean, for me it says a lotabout Bleep and what he was
showing.
In that moment I got reallyfucking worried.
But he just kept pushingforward to do the story.
(23:18):
Then they talked to people he'dbeen racist to.
They talked to all thesedifferent people.
They talked to people he'd beenracist to.
They talked to all thesedifferent people.
Then B***h found out it washappening because the
journalists reached out to himfor comment and he started
posting on his Instagram abouthow he's not been the best guy
in the past.
But now he meditates.
You know what I mean.
And then the article came outand nobody gave a shit.
(23:38):
It just wasn't a well-writtenpiece and I guess the star of
his show believed him and hedidn't lose his job.
Well-written piece and I guessthe star of his show believed
him and he didn't lose his job.
So now this man is stillrunning.
This fucking sex pest, is incharge of all these stories that
get told on his massivelypopular network.
And not only that, but he'sgetting paid a shit ton of money
because the reporter didn'tknow what she had.
You know what I mean.
(23:59):
Like she just didn't understand.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Would love to hear your thoughts on that clip.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
So that but that's a story did come out.
Is that what I heard?
A?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
story did come out and why I say you were named in
this story and they.
We asked the confessor if itwas okay to say this to you and
they said it was so is that theysaid it didn't go to Mo Ryan,
it went to somebody else.
They said it didn't go to MoRyan, it went to somebody else.
And this was the result thatthe story came out and nothing
happened to the perpetrator.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Well, here's the thing.
There have been stories Mo Ryanhas done and nothing happened.
I do feel flattered.
I do.
I do.
This is a complicated one.
You know I've had to haveconversations with people on my
side of the fence.
You know editors, or you knowpeople I'm working with to help
them understand what abusivenarcissism looks like.
(24:52):
I mean, it sounds overall likethat person didn't feel with,
respected or heard in theprocess.
This is really difficult workand when I say I try to respect
my sources, I also respect themenough to tell them the truth,
and that has led to some tensemoments.
I've had stories where someonesays oh, I understand you have
(25:15):
such and so documentation, canyou send that to me?
I can't why?
Because I have to every singleminute of every story I'm doing.
Think about how that looks in acourt of law a year from now.
Wow.
Does it look like I was helpingyou too much?
That I was.
You know what I mean?
Like I've many times had towonder is this a sock puppet
(25:37):
account approaching me?
Who's recording me?
Who's on the other end of thiscall?
I mean, because I don't knowthese people either.
Do you know what I mean?
I do think, though, that one ofthe things that you get in a
performative industry full ofstorytellers and, by the way,
I'm not using either of thosethings as necessarily as like
slurs you know what I mean or aslike negative phrases, but a
(26:00):
lot of people, including me, didnot understand all of the
different ways in which abusivebehaviors can be masked or
cloaked in something that seemsokay or even good.
I've had a difficult past andI've had a difficult life and
I've had a difficult everything.
A lot of clinical narcissists,a lot of abusive personality
(26:21):
types.
They themselves do not believethat that's what they're doing
and they're storytellers Ifthey're being paid to tell
stories.
A lot of people, regardless oftheir level of self-awareness,
are very good at managing upward.
You guys know this.
If the studio is an overalldeal with someone, an
established player who's had ahit in the past, all of the
(26:45):
incentives are toward oh, thisdude got a raw deal in the press
.
Oh, this was overblown.
All of that being said, thebiggest context I want to give
on the reporting.
Part of this is that, in a timewhen my industry is collapsing
and on fire and in a very badstate, many, many people I know,
(27:05):
including myself, took on abrand new full-time job on top
of everything else going on inour lives, to do this work, and
to do it ethically.
Everyone's made mistakes, butto do it ethically and to do it
while knowing that we could besued, our careers could also be
over.
Do you know what I mean?
So it's very difficult to doall of that.
(27:26):
So that's the overall context Iwant to set in people's minds.
That being said, some peopleare just really insensitive and
I don't want more people in thisworld to go through abuse or
damaging behavior orexploitative, narcissistic you
know whatever you want to callthe behavior, the patterns of
damage towards other people.
(27:47):
Vindictiveness is huge in theindustry, as you know.
I think some people haven'texperienced it.
And it's fundamental, like Ioften think, if I wasn't a
survivor, would I have done mywork the way that I did it?
I don't.
I'm not glad I went throughthat.
I mean it's not like hooray,but it made me understand just
(28:08):
how vulnerable people are.
Just to take that step ofcalling or emailing a reporter.
People are terrified.
They're taking a leap in thedark.
They don't know you, they don'tknow me, and so I respect that,
like I respect the fear.
I let them know the things thatI can let them know.
But if I don't give peoplerespect and agency within the
(28:28):
process, I've had people say twomonths into a story I don't
want to participate anymore.
I'm like, okay, because this isa big thing about how I
approach this stuff.
If pulling one source out of astory causes the house of cards
to collapse, then I don't knowthat.
You really had a story there.
And there have been stories,I'll tell you this too.
(28:49):
I didn't take them because I didenough poking around that I
thought.
I do believe that this person,that this was their experience,
but I do think that there's muchmore going on here that is much
more nuanced.
Sometimes I think people haveused this process of like
someone getting called out inthe press to take down one of
their rivals and that's anunfortunate thing that I've seen
(29:11):
a few times where, like someonegot fired for something that I
don't think was good For me.
It was on the borderline.
One thing I say a lot to peopleis look, what I'm not going to
do is do a massive story aboutone person's one bad day.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
That is a really great rule of thumb.
We've had somewhat similarsituations come our way on the
podcast and I am stealing that.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Like I'm not going to weaponize somebody's bad, worst
day, and so that's one of the.
I've mentioned this before.
But you know I have a wholehost of criteria that I'm
looking for.
What I'm looking for, and oneof them is is this a situation
where I'm weaponizing oneperson's really bad day?
And honestly, if I'm honest, II'm at the point now where I
(30:02):
think the reason I wrote aboutLost, the reason I wrote about
Sleepy Hollow, the reason I'vewritten about the things I've
written about, is because theyare symptoms of systemic
problems I no longer want to do.
Person X over here did the badthings.
I mean like how many?
There will always be a need forthose stories.
(30:23):
I don't know that I'm the rightperson to do them anymore,
because they are very taxing andI would much rather talk about.
Oh okay, so the studio knewthat.
Right.
The studio.
I cannot tell you the number oftimes where it's like what are
the odds this person turned outto be?
There have been times when Ijust do, basically I hear about
(30:43):
somebody who has a bat, you knowlike something's going wrong
with this production and what Ithen do is like call around to
my industry contacts and be likehey.
And they're all like, oh yeah,that not good.
I'm like, oh okay, so thestudio did absolutely none of
this, vetting that.
I'm now like it's taken me twohours to find out that this
person's reputation is horrific.
(31:05):
It's not as sexy, it doesn'tlend itself to the headline.
But especially in the book, alot of my chapter about Lost or
about Sleepy Hollow was likewhat were the people controlling
the levers of power doing aboutthis?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
This is such a fascinating subject to get into.
There's a story that I alwaystell which is so fascinating,
just like from an objectiveperspective.
It happened right after Me Too.
I was an assistant on a show.
I had dealt with a lot ofsexual harassment in various
forms throughout my life.
And I'm an assistant on a showand an EP walks up to me.
(31:45):
I have never spoken to this man, we have no relationship.
He walks up to me in the middleof the room while I'm taking
notes and starts rubbing myshoulders.
No, and I was like what the fuck?
And nobody's there too.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
I mean, first of all, it's bad if it's just you, but
it's bad Like okay, that's sofucking creepy, because I hear
about this kind of shit all thefucking time, and when they do
it in front of a bunch of otherpeople, it's a power.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
No, I think, I think, I actually have the power now,
so I waited until after the roomwas over and I got him
one-on-one and I told him we'regoing to adopt a strict no touch
(32:36):
policy, you and I.
And the look on his face all ofa sudden he was terrified.
It clicked for for him and hetotally understood that the
power was on my side and if heever fucking touched me again he
was going to go down.
And he was like understood, andhe never did anything like that
again.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
So that's actually like.
Here's the thing.
I think about this a lot.
I heard about an incident inwhich a man had his laptop open
before the room like everyone'slike kind of assembling, like
the showrunner wasn't there thisdude is at angling, or no, it
was.
It was um, you know, a tablet.
He's purposely angling histablet so that his female
co-worker can see a bunch ofdick pics oh my god we know what
(33:17):
that is right, yeah, man rightwhat no.
Like all the no's Plus anadditional Costco serving of
no's what the fuck, dude?
And so this was someone Ithought about writing about,
like in the early.
Like you know, that early timeof Me Too was like a lot, of, a
lot of shit was going down.
(33:37):
Yeah.
So I talked to this person thatit happened to a few times.
I think a lot of people evenhave trouble like naming
something for what it is becausethe industry gaslights people
into like but like.
So I like I said to her at onepoint like, did you feel okay
going to your showrunner?
She's like yes, I would.
And I actually know that theshowrunner dude and he seems
(33:59):
like a good dude.
And to me a big question alwaysis would you have felt
comfortable going to a superiorwith power, whether it's the
showrunner, an exec, whoever isthat person someone you could
have gone to?
Because this is something Itell people who do end up in
showrunner positions all thetime how can I get people to
understand that they can trustme?
But I'm like you have to justshow it how do you?
(34:21):
react when the lunch order iswrong how do you?
Pushing back on a show idea.
How do you like you will do 500things in a week that
everyone's watching?
The only way people know thatthey can trust you is by
watching how you operate, andI'm sorry if you can't take the
scrutiny.
Maybe showrunners not for youor maybe powerful person's not
(34:41):
for you.
So she's like, yeah, I couldhave.
What she actually did was Ithink she's oh, she said it in
the room.
She's like, hey, everybody thisperson is purposely on his
tablet showing me inappropriatematerial whoa, that is explosive
baller yeah, I would have beenlike because it's so like I hate
how much it puts it on theindividual to be like what do I
(35:03):
do?
But, as you know, that's thereality of it, unfortunately,
like you are put in anunwinnable position a lot of
times.
So she says that and he's likeoh, there's an accident, what's
it away?
It never happens again, nothing.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yes, yes, I love it.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
I'm not going to weaponize somebody's worst day,
unless that worst day or bad dayis part of the pattern.
If it is, you know you have togive people the opportunity to
understand, and I it's.
I don't.
I don't think that what thatshowrunner did or that what that
ep did to you was right.
It was not right, it never wasright, but I think this it's so.
(35:41):
Part of what makes it so hardis this industry put forward the
idea that boundaries are wrongand anti-art and anti-creativity
, which is something thatpsychopaths put forward.
I mean the industry sort offunctions as like the lead
sociopath.
You know what I mean.
So I think it being a humanbeing means looking back at some
(36:04):
of your past behavior andhaving like an absolute
shockwave or go through yourlike oh God, did I say that?
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, yeah, this, this whole conversation.
It brings up a big questionthat I've been meaning to ask
you being a journalist, throughme to, through pay up Hollywood,
through Time's Up, through allthese different movements.
Where do you sort of see thenext movement coming from?
Through Me Too, through Pay UpHollywood, through Time's Up,
through all these differentmovements no-transcript and
really just not being crushed bythe machine.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
You know like basically consciousness around
exploitation as the businessmodel.
Do you know what I mean?
I mean first of all.
The first part of my answer ishaving been around for decades,
literally, I have seen progressin every single area not happen,
be long overdue when it startsto happen and then stop and then
(36:57):
go backward.
So I do not think that we areanywhere near we need to be in
terms of equity, when you knowwhen many, many studies that we
could all cite are talking about, like the number of women of
color directors of studio filmshas remained constant.
You know there was a study thatcame out a year or two ago
where many, I think by USCAnnenberg, you know many
(37:21):
indicators in the film space,whatever gains they had made in
the wake of supposed reckoningson race and gender, they went
backward again.
So, like Hollywood, gains arevery hard fought.
I think there's a couple,there's a few consciousnesses
that have been raised, and oneof them is amongst the people
who have at least some power.
(37:42):
There is a consciousness thatthese gains are hard fought and
sometimes don't even happen in areal way.
You know on a real level, knowon a real level.
So I think, I think amongstpeople who are, you know,
running shows now, who are youknow eps or creators or
directors, with you know sort ofexperience and maybe, again, I
(38:02):
always feel conscious of thefact, like people I know and who
are still willing to talk to me, I'm like I'm over sampling for
the people who care.
If you haven't threatened mewith your through your lawyers,
then you know.
Like you know I'm, there's aself-selecting group that I talk
to, but I do think that there'sa consciousness that not only
are these gains over the pasthundred years of Hollywood hard
(38:25):
to achieve and then hard to holdon to, but I think that there's
just a larger understandingaround the idea that the
machinery is set up to takeeverything back from the people
who make it and now it's set upto like not give them anything
on.
You know, up front even.
You know it's interesting to,it's interesting to watch the
(38:49):
mentality of the average workingprofessional in the industry.
You know, in New York, la, evenin London, toronto, wherever
you want to call it, vancouver,I think that they've been
labor-pilled to, I actuallythink, a heartening extent.
You know, the thing that theindustry has accomplished at a
(39:11):
few points in its history issharing the spoils a little bit
more fairly.
To be clear, mostly for whitepeople, mostly for straight
people, fully for cisgenderpeople and abled bodied people
usually.
But what?
What happened to achieve a sortof stasis, you know, especially
(39:31):
during the time that I oftelevision that I love, that
love that I very much, am veryglad to have written about is
certain people, under certainconditions, got to share in the
wealth a little more thatachieving a level of
(39:53):
non-precarity at work, achievinga level of financial security,
achieving the ability to have afuture and be a caregiver, pay
for caregiving, pay for a lifethat is illusory, and what
really really brought it homefor me was, even before the
(40:14):
strike, even before the pandemic.
You know people that I know,people whose names you know we
know we're like, yeah, I have tosell my house and move.
The number of people I've metin the industry who could retire
, who could stop workingtomorrow and have a full and
nice, comfortable life until theday they die at age 80.
I've never known that manypeople in that category.
(40:34):
But I think, thank God, amongthe public there's a greater
awareness that that's not reallya thing Like yes, there's a
small 1% that you know.
I don't want Margot Robbie tostop working.
But like if Margot Robbie wentor you know, if Meryl Streep
wanted to take five yearsbetween jobs, she could, but
like that's a very, very smallnumber of people, I think that
(41:11):
there's just a largerconsciousness around the
structure, of how muchexploitation is baked into all
these structures and how muchaction and solidarity, frankly,
is required to fight it.
It always makes me extremelynervous to talk about the state
of Hollywoodllywood changebecause I've just seen it rolled
back so many times and notbecause people were like, yay, I
want to undo the gains we'vemade.
It's more that the machine isset up to undo them and I just,
and then it's set up to amongstthe people who get into that 1%
(41:34):
of independently wealthy people.
It's also set up to reinforcetheir priors.
This is why I said in my bookthe people that I reserve
judgment for are the people whohave the power to change
anything.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
You know, you made the comment that an individual
can change, and we're talkingabout like a person-to-person
interaction.
An individual can be empoweredand an individual can also have
an opportunity to change.
Now we're talking aboutcollective action and the power
that people can have throughcollective action, and then that
kind of almost gets us to thepoint like systemic toxicity and
(42:12):
like the people at the very topor the system, um, the the
system and the way that it'sbuilt on the inside.
But do you think that in theway that an individual can
change, do you think that thesystem can change, or do you?
Are you still very much likeburn it down, start over?
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I do think.
I do think the system canchange I do, actually but we
have to keep in mind that when Isay that it can change for the
worse, I mean ask actors howthey feel about self-tapes being
the only thing like you knowwhat I?
mean we have to keep in mindthat the system can change.
And I think a lot about thecarrot and the stick and I've
been, you know.
(42:53):
I feel like there's like thecling on pain stick, like like
that's one of these.
I feel like I have to use thatmyself personally more than I
would like.
But, but the two things, ifwe're going to talk about
positive change, you know, forthe money or for the individual
we have to talk about is, youknow, I feel like I kind of have
a like a shtick.
I should make it like a YouTubevideo or something.
(43:15):
Here's the thing, the twothings.
We can sit here all day and talkabout toxicity in terms of
norms, in terms of individualpeople, in terms of standards,
in terms of institutional andsystemic abuse, toxicity and
biases, but the two things thatalways work.
What absolutely humbles me andfloors me in a good way is that
(43:36):
people are very often wantingrelief for themselves, but even
more so they want to help others.
So that's the big first thing.
And then the second thing is alot of people in Hollywood don't
want to be good.
They want to seem good.
You can use that.
You can use that.
What they hate is bad PR.
(43:57):
That's my bad pop single.
It's coming out.
It's dropping on Tuesday.
You heard it here first.
I've been, I've been in a trade,I've been at fancy pants vanity
fair.
I've been at you know urbannewspaper.
(44:20):
I've been like, I've been outin general and I can tell you
the one unifying thing is thisand this is what's crazy, but
you can use it Cheat code fromMaureen Ryan, my next book.
The cheat code is they careabout publicly seeming good and
getting validation, and this iswhat's crazy to me.
It took me so long to figurethis out Because someone will be
(44:47):
sitting across the table fromme like they're not feigning it,
because they're not that goodof an actor, because they're a
writer and writers are usuallynot good at it.
They care what I think and I'mlike why does this person care
what I think?
They're worth like $50 million?
And I'm like why does thisperson care what I think?
They're worth like $50 million?
And I'm like some jackass, likeI'm pretty okay, right, or
jackass, but I'm like why doesanyone care what I think?
No one cares, but that's thething that never goes away.
Why do people stay in the gamewhen they are independently
(45:07):
wealthy, when they do have ashelf of awards.
Why?
Why do they do it?
They want validation, and Idon't think that's bad.
To be clear, I want validationtoo.
When my book was on the newyork times bestseller list, I
cried a whole freaking bunch.
I was really oh it's nice to bevalidated.
Yeah, this is my position onaward shows.
(45:29):
Everyone should get up, shouldbe able to get up, you know, get
fancy dressed up and drinksomebody else's booze and get an
award, because you know whatit's like when you're working on
a project.
You're working 12 to 14 hourdays.
You're not like, well, this isfor sure going to get an Emmy.
You're like I just want to getpaid and, like you know, have a
decent time.
But then when it does get anEmmy, it's like nice bonus.
So validation is okay, but youcan use it.
(45:59):
You can use it.
The one thing that thecompanies and the studios that I
deal with time and again, theunifying thing throughout 30
years of industry change is theyhate looking bad?
People in the industry.
The more power they get, themore they fear looking bad.
They don't care about being bad, but if you can hit them with
the bad PR pain stick, orthreaten to hit them with the
bad PR pain stick, that doeschange the industry.
(46:21):
It does.
Let's just take my book, which,by the way, coming out in
paperback in June, if you prefera paperback format.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Oh man, I do prefer paperback, thank you.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
The thing I think about a lot and I can go into
the bad spirals.
I have so many bad spirals likethis whole wall right here is
just like which bad spiral noone of the bad spirals is, you
know, if you're like, oh wow, motalked about some situations in
the past that were real bad.
Some of them aren't in the past,by the way, but a lot of the
(46:55):
people who were standing aroundand silently endorsing what was
going on while doing a HomerSimpson into the bushes and not
getting sort of tagged with it,they're still in the industry
and they're more powerful thanthey were then.
So here's my thing.
I hope that my book made somepeople real scared about what I
(47:16):
might drop, about them goingforward, and it's possible that
in my career as a reportermaking a very general statement
about no one in particular thatthere are some people who,
through my legal reps, at somepoint in my career not recently
for sure, as far as you knowknow my legal reps have had to
say ps, not everything that moryan knows about you went, went
(47:39):
into this work that she did ohyeah love that you'd like to
open up a process of discovery,bring it, motherfucker.
You know I think I think I'vesaid a lot now for six, seven
years is a lot of people have myphone number.
You know, a lot of people knowhow to hit me up on signal.
You should wonder if they'vehit me up about not you
personally, but like I have asort of like hypothetical you.
(48:01):
You know, there's a lot ofperformative bullshit and then
there's a lot of people who makeit about them and their tears.
I don't, you know, that's whatyour therapist is for.
I don't care about your tears.
Yeah therapist is, for I don'tcare about your tears.
Yeah, a lot of people get a lotof chances that, as you know,
um are not doled out equallyacross the industry.
(48:21):
I do believe in second chances.
I do believe in evolution andchange and calling in instead of
calling out.
You know speaking.
I said before oh god, I getreally nervous when we talk
about change.
I get really nervous when wetalk about change.
I also get really nervous whenwe talk about how do we allow
for change and evolution?
(48:57):
Narcissistic, sociopathic or insome other way, an abusive
personality type, manipulate thegoodness and the authenticity
and the hopefulness and optimismand help of good people.
That is something that I thinkis particularly endemic in this
industry, and I can tell you fora fact there are any number of
abusive personalities who 100don don't believe that's what
they are, and the industry hasgaslit everyone else into going
(49:20):
along with what you know.
Oh, but he needs this or she'sno, no, no, no.
And I think, hopefully, thatthat's changing too in terms of
like.
Where is change at?
Speaker 2 (49:31):
Yeah, the gaslighting thing is really.
It's interesting.
Our first episode of the seasonjust dropped today actually and
gaslighting was a major part ofthat confessor's experience,
and so we've been talking a lotabout it lately.
Collective action, peoplegaining a little bit more
clarity about the industry andhow it has historically
(49:57):
functioned, how it hashistorically abused and
exploited laborers.
It feels like that makesgaslighting more and more
difficult as time goes on,because there's just been too
much light shed on what'sactually going on, and I think
that's a great thing.
Speaker 3 (50:20):
I totally agree and I think that we have much further
to go.
Frankly, I do Because one ofthe things that scares the shit
out of me is the following, andI've seen it up close, and I've
seen it up close recently in away that's deeply terrifying
there are some people who willnever, ever admit, let alone
change, admit their behavior andtheir whole way of being in the
world is dangerous and and andnot good.
(50:42):
There are some like the thingis it's an industry of
storytellers.
What does the industry do whensomeone says, you know, preaches
to the skies morning, noon andnight, that they are innocent,
that they're good, that theyhave a story for why this is
this way?
They have a very elaboratestory for why these people are
complaining this, that and theother.
(51:02):
There are some people who areincapable, for whatever reason,
of change.
There are some people who, forwhatever reason and we, at a
certain point, you don't need togive a shit about the reason
are going to continue to harm orexploit or in some way damage
people.
And the industry's guardrailsfor that shit are basically
(51:24):
still non-existent as far as I'mconcerned, except for going to
the press, people at the tophave to be forced to listen to
the accounts of someone otherthan that person.
That person has spun so muchbullshit and so many people
bought it for so long that theyfeel embarrassed to be publicly
kind of outed as this person'senabler.
(51:44):
Here's the thing.
I don't care Again.
Go to therapy, go to a bar, dowhat you're going to do, and I
think that that is a change.
Think that that is a changethat I do think that the
smartest people near the top orat the top reaches of Hollywood.
There is no going back topeople just suffering in silence
on mass anymore.
I do think that, quietly, thereare people who haven't worked a
(52:05):
lot the last few years.
Good.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
I think this is an amazing place to wrap up.
We've taken so much of yourtime already.
You've been so generous with us.
Speaker 3 (52:13):
This is all such stuff so near and dear to my
heart.
So I'm honored to be able totalk.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Thank you so much.
I've got one last question onmy part and I'm sure you have
other questions as well, but onething we do on our podcast is
we try to shout out the peoplethat are doing good, and we've
definitely heard your namebefore people have shouted you
out.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
Oh me, oh God, I thought you want me to name.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
No, we would love to know who you'd love to shout out
.
Who have you seen doing good inthis industry?
Speaker 3 (52:42):
Melinda Hsu.
Knowing her has been a huge,enormous privilege.
She's now the training that Italked about in my book.
She's sort of taking it on theroad and she's pitching it to
studios of like.
Here's how we can all arrive atnorms and feel heard and also
(53:02):
be a cost-effective andproductive and efficient
workplace.
You know, and it's a two-daytraining, I got to sit in on it
via Zoom.
She's doing incredible stuff.
You know, javi Grigio-Marxwatchif the dude did nothing else
putting out the 11 Lodge ofShowrunning, which I find very
helpful, just as a person in theworld working with other human
beings in the world I meanHarold Perrineau, monica O
(53:25):
Subrene I could cry sitting hereright now when I think about
I'm getting a little teary.
There's so many people who inmy reporting processes we would
talk about being scared you knowwhat I mean Like we off the
record when we were just likedone with the interview, like
(53:46):
what do you think is going tohappen?
Many people have asked me doyou think I'm going to get sued?
And so one thing I can do issay if this comes out in a piece
or a book that I'm working on,please understand, I've talked
to lawyers about this and neversay never about anything,
because some people are justbatshit crazy and terrible and
(54:08):
have a lot of money for lawyers.
But you know, if anyone's goingto take the the heat, it's
going to be whoever's publishingthis, and me so.
But a lot of people have riskeda lot.
A lot of people have risked somuch.
Orlando jones, there are somany people, god, I just, I know
I'm going to think of people,but but you know there are
(54:29):
people who are puttingsystematic reforms and actions
on the table.
And I'll close with somethingyou know we started out just
today talking about change,right, hopefully he's cool with
it because he and I have talkedabout it many times.
But Javi Grigio-Marxwatch, youknow there was that episode of
(54:50):
the 100 where a queer characterdied and you know, for any
number of reasons, that became ahuge flashpoint.
I was sort of very much on thefront lines of the social media
and in DMs with people andactually like counseling people
in a weird way, like I'm not acounselor, but like talking
people through their pain andthe community, the crisis the
(55:11):
community was going through, thequeer community especially, and
there were people you know atrisk because our world is not
kind to queer people, especiallyqueer youth and um.
But what Javi modeled in thatmoment hopefully you all can
absorb this because I think youstill can't.
In that moment he listened andlistened and he said I'm hearing
(55:35):
you, I'm listening to you.
He would retweet the oppositeof what this industry tells
people to model.
You modeled humility and and hedidn't have an answer.
(56:00):
Like his name was on thatscript but he didn't.
He wasn't telling people whatto feel.
There was a few couple yearslater.
There was devoted to um,lgbtqia people on tv and you
know actors and you know membersof the community who, like, all
(56:21):
wanted to have like a conaround, kind of like queer tv.
Javi at one point rolled up tothe bar at that con.
He was invited to that con andhe was scared.
He's like what do you think'sgonna happen?
I'm like I think a lot ofpeople are going to buy you
drinks.
So imagine what is required whena community is really
understandably angry aboutsomething, and then you become
(56:42):
an even more beloved part ofthat community, despite your
role in a situation that wasincredibly difficult.
That is how it can work, and soI will never lose hope.
I want to lose hope Sometimes.
I want to be like nihilism.
It's great, but I can't,because I have so many examples
I can look at where peoplechanged the paradigm Individuals
(57:03):
did, or people as groups did.
It's possible.
And I'm Mo Ryan.
Vote for me for president.
I felt at the end I was like amI pitching something here?
I'm not good at endings.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
We say amen.
We thank you so much for this,Mo.
This has been an amazinginterview, and the way that we
typically end our episodes is tosay go create in peace.
Speaker 3 (57:34):
Thank you so much and you guys are great, thank you.
Typically, end our episodes isto say go create in peace.
Thank you so much and you guysare great, thank you.
And I do believe that, likeit's so heartening just to talk
to you because you, you're man,you know your generation is not
going to fucking take it, and Ilove it, and I love it.
So go forth and fuck it up Burnit down.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
The Hollywood Confessional is produced by
Megan Dane and Jair Zamora-Thal.
Joelle Garfinkel is ourco-producer and AJ Thal is our
post-production coordinator andeditor.
Special effects provided byZapSplat and Pixabay.
Hollywood Confessional is aNinth Way Media production.
Follow us on socials atFessUpHollywood.
In nomine Cinema e TV Espiritu Streaming Amen.
Hello Hollywood, faithful, weare back with another amazing
episode of the HollywoodConfessional and on this episode
(00:22):
we've got a very, very specialguest.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
That's right.
First of all, special guest JRDe.
We've got a very, very specialguest, that's right.
First of all, special guest JRDeMorathal, who forgot to
introduce himself.
Yeah, you're the guy, and I'mMegan Dane.
And this week we have criticand journalist Maureen Ryan,
also known as Mo.
She has an incredible resume.
She was a contributing editorat Vanity Fair, she's written
for Entertainment Weekly, NewYork Times, EW, Salon, GQ the
(00:46):
list goes on and on and on.
And she is also the author ofBurn it Down, Power, Complicity
and A Call for Change inHollywood, which is a subject
very near to our hearts here onthe Hollywood Confessional.
So welcome, Mo, and thank youso much for joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Thank you for having me.
I love being introduced.
I feel like I wish my wholelife was being introduced,
because I sound fancy.
I'm not just understand that,I'm just like you.
I am looking down to see if myt shirt is clean.
It is.
Yeah, I love the whole conceptof your podcast Because, you
know, that's a weird gray areathat I'm in all the time where
(01:23):
people are like, should I do xor y, or what should I do?
What can I do?
It's there's, there's notreally easy answers to any of it
and you know, I thinkcontinuing to just at least have
a forum to talk about thesedifficult things, you know, or
just it's confusing, like anyonein any job is often confused
(01:45):
about what to do about asituation with, you know, a
problematic situation.
But I think in this industry is, you know, it's the whole
reason I wrote my book is that,you know, it's just that the
disincentives are huge and thosehave not really gone away.
Like we wouldn't be having thisconversation and you wouldn't
have this podcast if it was likewell, we fixed it.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, right, yeah, that's right.
We, we definitely want to getinto that and we were very
excited about the concept ofyour book when it came out,
because we're like, oh, this isthe thing, but oh my God, like
their name and names and likethe victim's names and the
perpetrator's names, and so whatis the cost of people coming
(02:22):
forward, like on our podcast?
Our whole thing was we'recoming from a background of
being support staffers, beinglike the low people on the totem
pole and like you cannot saycertain things.
Oh, god, no, no.
You will never work in this townagain, right?
So we wanted to create thisanonymous forum, but then by
doing so we have to, kind of bydefault, not name names of the
(02:46):
perpetrators, and sometimesthat's very frustrating and we
wish we could say who didsomething.
But what is the cost, do youthink, for people who do come
forward?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
That's a really interesting question.
I really honestly, I think a lotof the cost is paid kind of
ahead of time, like on theprepaid plan.
You know, and you know a lot ofpeople come to me and I'm
essentially, I think now maybeto some degree, a resource for
people in many walks of life,but especially in the industry.
You know, when someone'senduring something that they
(03:17):
shouldn't be enduring, whateverthat is, and it's a pattern and
they like whatever attemptsthey've made to address the
situation, if they've made any,and sometimes, as you say, they
can't Quite often there's aprocess of like asking around,
like close friends, you knowfamily, like whoever you can,
and so a lot of the time on thejourney I'm one of those people.
(03:38):
That, or a reporter, is one ofthose people and I honestly
think weirdly enough, I mean,part of the reason I'm so
excited about being on yourpodcast and the concept of your
podcast is what I've done.
You're only seeing the top ofthe glacier.
A lot of what I've done is outof sight and I'm okay with that,
but I essentially I do wantpeople to feel, you know,
(04:02):
information can be power and Ithink that a lot of times,
especially for support staff,for crew, like, just for anyone
and I'm talking to people at theupper levels or established
people for anyone this can be adifficult process to navigate,
but especially for the peoplewith the least power, it's
incredibly fraught.
So I think people do pay a cost, and that is in this question
(04:25):
of before you even start thatprocess of asking around or
talking to people, there's thecost of is this all in my head?
And then there's the slow, drip, drip, of sort of like the slow
and steady attack on yourself-esteem because you think,
and the industry is training youto think a lot of people,
because you think and theindustry is training you to
(04:47):
think a lot of people.
I can't cut it.
It's me, I'm the problem.
Again, a huge, huge reason I'vedone the work that I've done and
written the book that I wroteis because I want to sit here
and tell you, as someone who'sbeen around this industry for
more than 30 years, no one'sperfect.
Yes, in certain situations maybeyou are the problem or you have
made a mistake.
That's a given but a lot of thetime, what I'm witnessing and
(05:12):
what I'm hearing about issomeone being made to feel that
they cannot trust their ownsenses, their own mind, their
own emotions, their own reaction, and that, you know, bugs me
quite a bit, as you can imagine.
I do think that that's changingin the sense of the following I
(05:33):
do think that, again, thatearly stage of should I talk to
anyone?
Am I at fault here?
What is going on?
Am I wrong?
Who can I talk to to?
I do think and you can tell meif you disagree that stage I
hope for some people is lesstorturous, because I do think
(05:53):
that there's a sense that it's adifficult, brutal industry on a
good day I mean the highs arehigh, don't?
I mean you guys, you know,you've been in the trenches, you
get it.
The highs are high, don't Imean you guys?
You know, you've been in thetrenches, you get it.
The highs are high.
The parts that make it worth itmake it worth it, but the lows
and the dangers are very extremeand very, very difficult to
navigate.
So I do think you know thiscost that we're talking about.
(06:18):
I hope that all of us togetheras a group whether that's
friends, other support staff,other senior people with good
intentions and good actions andgood histories, reporters I
think that hopefully we havemade it less difficult to start
that process of what should I doabout this?
And you know, as I said manytimes in my book, I do think
(06:41):
we're still at the early stageseven with that.
So, but the cost you know.
I think probably the ultimatequestion that may be embedded in
what you asked is am I going todestroy my career if I try to
do something about X?
Am I going to wreck my future?
I am not overly prone tooptimism, but I honestly think
(07:02):
that that doesn't have to be thecase necessarily anymore,
something I you know I didn'tsay it in my book flat out, but
I'm really proud of this.
The very first story I didposed me to the first big
workplace misconduct story I did.
I had 19 sources and none ofthem blew up their career
(07:24):
because none of them used theirnames.
This has been a very big partof my career, a very big focus
that honestly again, I'm glad tohave this opportunity Within my
reporting process.
I certainly don't want to tellother reporters how to do their
jobs.
There's a lot of people doingreally good work for super duper
(07:44):
, huge amounts of money.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
Journalism.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Don't do it kids.
So I have made it a priority inmy career to give people
autonomy within the process oftalking to me and I kind of like
, over the years, developed kindof a pitch and my pitch is in
the maybe in the first 10conversations, but certainly in
the first five conversations,the first three or first one.
(08:10):
We're off the record.
We're talking one human beingto the other.
You can ask me what you need toask me.
I will ask you what I think Ineed to ask you.
If you decide, after thisconversation, the information I
got and where I'm at mentallyand physically with my life and
professionally, I don't want tomove forward.
(08:31):
I'm glad we met.
I wish you the best.
Everything in the vault getslocked away and never spoken of
again.
I've had a million conversationslike that.
So I give people autonomywithin the process to decide
what's right for them.
And, man, if you want to makeme, if you want to see me go
(08:51):
zero to 60,.
Really furious is when anyonepressures someone to use their
name in this industry.
I want to punch their lightsout.
I want to punch their lightsout a lot, and I don't cause I'm
like a Buddhist their lightsout a lot and I don't because
I'm like a buddhist stupid, butI'm like.
There's nothing in this worldthat makes me more angry than
(09:13):
pressuring a person withoutpower to do something for the
reporter's career, not for thatperson's.
Yep, if you think oh, mo's hada this, you know certain kind of
track record as a reporter.
That track record is because Itreat human beings like human
beings and again, I'm not theonly one to do this.
I didn't invent that.
But, having been in thesetrenches of just reporting on
(09:37):
the industry for again over 30years, there are people who do
it to get to know famous people,to pretend they're friends with
famous people.
Ps, you're not.
It's an exchange of.
You do a story on me and myshow and then, even if we have a
great time please don't getinto this to take selfies with
famous people.
I'm begging you.
(09:57):
If you're wanting to be areporter, ps, why would you so?
My philosophy is it's not abouttaking someone down.
I have a very holistic andpersonal to me set of criteria
before I even do a story, andthat a lot of that revolves
around for the people concerned,how does this move the
(10:21):
situation forward for them?
How does this move thesituation forward for them and
what am I doing as a reporter?
That is new.
I mean, I've reported on in mycareer issues to do with
caregiving.
Hollywood does not care aboutpeople who have caregiving
responsibilities at all.
I've reported on issues to dowith people with disabilities
(10:41):
and accommodations.
Does Hollywood truly, reallyand truly care about
consistently makingaccommodations for those who
live with disabilities?
No, when I talk to people, ithas to be about how will this be
a thing that I can do legallyand journalistically, and my own
brain survives the processSometimes that's a little bit
(11:03):
iffy survives the process.
Sometimes that's a little bitiffy.
How can we do a thing thatmoves the situation forward and
highlight something that needsto be highlighted?
So the cost that we're talkingabout is I do have people come
to me and go.
Will I wreck my career if Icome and talk about this person?
(11:24):
I will tell you there is a verywealthy news anchor and someone
came to me and said thishappened, this is the situation,
and we talked a few times.
This person thought that theyhad documentation of what they
experienced.
It turns out they did not,because it was quite some time
ago, and I said I'll be honestwith you.
If you're the only personmaking this allegation against
(11:45):
this very famous anchor whoworks for a very powerful
network, I think you will regretit.
Wow.
And honestly, as a reporter, Iwasn't sure that I had the goods
either, because, like a lot ofwhat I have to do too in those
early conversations is figureout, can I even pitch this to an
editor Once I pitch it to theeditor, if it's a hot potato
(12:07):
story, then they have to pitchit to legal and by the way.
I've had stuff pitched to legaland they say yeah, I mean I
think we can probably do it.
And then, like three monthslater, they're like oh, you know
, maybe not.
And I'm like oh no, you told meto do it.
So it's a very challengingprocedure, and none of that
(12:27):
procedure, for me, can proceedunless the person on the other
end of the phone or the Zoom orwhatever it is, you're in a safe
place.
If you tell me stuff, and then,a week later, you're like I'm
having a panic attack, I don'twant to go forward, I don't want
to come forward, I'm going todo this other stuff over here,
what I say to people is I wishyou all the best, let me know if
(12:49):
I can help.
Here's the thing.
I don't want to put any of usthrough that if it's not going
to be like a thing that helps.
So the flip side of everythingI just said, though, is oh dude,
if you had told me in 2017 thatI was going to speak the
following sentence, I would havebeen like no wrong.
(13:09):
This is inaccurate, but many,many people have found a
positive way forward from havingcome forward, and that is not
to say because, honestly,everyone in the industry is
sitting on a story where theycould go to the, that they could
get a press release.
That is not at all to say, youknow, like I'm a survivor, like
(13:31):
I think that that's a huge partof like kind of where my head is
at.
It's like you, if you'vesurvived something bad and
damaging on any in any way, youfigure out for you and your life
, life what's the way forward.
If I'm part of that, maybethat's a good thing for you.
If it's no longer the idealthing for you, then go over
there and do that thing, do this, do that, do the other.
(13:54):
I mean I'm actually reallyagain this is so weird I'm
having a very strange experienceof speaking optimistically
about this industry.
That was unexpected, but Icannot tell you how gratifying
it has been to talk to peoplewho felt that a burden had been
lifted and none of us reallythought that.
(14:17):
Do you know what I mean?
Like I don't.
Like I'll just say, for example, in my book there's a chapter
on the TV show lost cult show.
Very few people know about it.
You should look it up sometime.
I mean there's a few fans.
Honestly, you know, when I talkto sources, you know you're
seeing, okay, like there's sixquotes from this person, some
(14:39):
people I was talking to for likefour years before I began
working on that chapter inearnest and really I'm proud of
the book for a lot of reasons,but I'm proud of the fact that
it's the culmination of.
I think my approach to talkingto people made a number of
people feel safe enough to talkto me about those things and
(15:00):
sometimes using their names.
I walked up to Harold Perrineau, sometimes using their names.
I walked up to Harold Perrineauso we had done all this work,
he and I had been talking andthe book came out and talked
many times before it came out.
I didn't actually meet him inperson until the ATX festival,
four days before my book cameout.
Oh my God, three days after thelast chapter was online and my
(15:22):
life was just like a massiveexplosion.
And so I walked up to him and I, you know, tried to keep my
cool together.
But you know, once you guys getto know me, you'll understand
that I don't have any cool atall.
I kind of was like, why did youtrust me?
Like I still to this day, Ilook at the people and I look at
the track record that I haveand I'm like a lot of people
(15:44):
took a leap of faith, a lot, butI'm here to tell you that for
some people, when they made thedecision to come forward as a
group.
That's a huge part of my answerto your question.
I'm still answering your firstquestion, but you know, like,
okay, the cost that is paid?
Yes, there is a cost.
There's a cost and worry MostI've ever talked to.
(16:07):
Sometimes, even when I don't usesomebody name, somebody's name,
I'm very skilled at making sureI don't leave any enough
identifying information.
I mean, the thing is, someevery so often I'll say, well,
you were the only afro-latinawoman on that staff, so I think
they're gonna figure it outright.
Like you know, that person willbe like it's fine.
Like you know, whatever.
Like they determine the levelto which they're identifiable
(16:30):
and a lot of times they don'twant identifying information,
you know.
But no, I mean a lot of peopletook leaps of faith, but I think
you know, whether we're talkingabout the last chapter or other
big stories I've done they weretaking that leap of faith
together and behind the scenes astory where I thought I would
have six horses, suddenly I have22 because they all talk.
(16:52):
I mean, there are many timesthat people talk behind the
scenes about what to do aboutsomething and the first step is
to realize that I'm telling youyou're not alone.
You know, even if, let's say,in a particular production,
you're the only assistant thatseems to be getting singled out
by this person, that person hassingled people out before, on a
(17:12):
different movie or on adifferent set or whatever.
So, like, the first thing thatpeople need to understand is
that they're not alone.
And a lot of times people askhow many other people are going
to use their names and I tellthem.
I don't say who it is, but, like, my feeling about reporting on
this industry is that there isso much uncertainty and fear.
(17:33):
I don't want to be an unduesource of those things.
I will be as transparent as Ican be.
You know, mo Ryan's Pulitzer iswhen Lucas Till called me and
said I've reached my breakingpoint, I have to do something,
and like five different peopletold me to talk to you.
That, to me, was one of thenicest things I've ever heard,
(17:55):
which is you know how theindustry is, everyone talks.
Yep everyone's.
You know, like everyone, there'ssix degrees of separation of,
like you know, and I don't knowwhat, like I don't know a ton of
people in animation.
I don't know necessarily know aton of people in indie film,
but like you know what I mean,like there's enough crossover
that people talk.
And if you know what I say toother reporters sometimes not
that I need to tell most of themthis, but like don't be a jerk.
(18:18):
I mean because don't be a jerk,like just don't do that.
That seems.
But also everything I've gottenis when people come to me.
If you think I'm out there onVentura Boulevard with a sign
going like tell me your trauma,I'm not Like I should do that
Honestly.
That would be very upsetting.
It would be enlightening.
(18:39):
Like basically, I would never beable to move from that spot.
Nothing is certain in my gameor in yours.
There are ways that we canprotect ourselves, and one of
the biggest ways is throughgroup actions.
There was a story I did oncewhere a bunch of showrunners you
(19:00):
know, during the pandemic, Idon't have to tell you they were
trying to cut assistant paytrying to basically oh cool,
well, the pandemic's happening.
That seems bad.
What would be a good responseto that is to save a few pennies
by screwing over the people whomake the least money.
Let's do that.
I'm like, yeah, the year thatDavid Zaslav's making a quarter
(19:22):
billion, for sure, do it, let'sdo it.
Make that person who's barelymaking men's meat have to be in
their cover.
I love it, let's do it.
A bunch of showrunners for onestudio banded together and wrote
a letter to the studio andwe're basically like, well,
we're either going to, you know,basically in a preliminary way,
(19:43):
so we're either going to sendthis letter to you or we're
going to send it to Mo Ryan.
Which do you prefer?
Guess what?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Oh my God, that's amazing.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
One of those cuts in hours didn't happen, and so I
remember talking to one of theshowrunners who was kind of
behind that effort.
He's like I didn't.
He kind of didn't realize thatthey had that power, and I think
that that's something that Ithink and again, I'd love to get
your take on this.
The industry would love foreveryone to think that they're
(20:11):
powerless, right, they wouldlove it if everyone was just
like oh no, we're all going tobe homeless this fall, so we
shouldn't be striking.
No, people aren't powerless.
They would love you to thinkthat, though.
They would love everyone tothink that they're isolated.
There's no solidarity, there'sno camaraderie, there's no
altruism, there's no groupeffort that will work.
(20:32):
You're isolated and you shouldjust take whatever crumbs you
get.
And if you can't deal with thebrutal aspects of the industry,
you're the problem.
And I think there's been a lotof people just on a number of
fronts, whether it's, you know,labor actions, going to
reporters, going to studios, butit just, it, always it just.
(20:52):
It wowed me that that here's anestablished showrunner,
somebody who's been in the gamea long time, kind of not
realizing I'm like.
And I said to him I'm like youcan do this again, you know.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I mean, I think, like I love so much of what you're
saying and it really speaks to alot of the um, the stories that
we're getting Um, and the factthat people don't realize their
power and what a difference itcan make to take that it's like,
if you're going to, this is notthe right metaphor, but if
(21:27):
you're going to shoot, you gotto shoot to kill type of thing,
Right?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
So you have headshots only terrible.
I literally have phrased in mywork I'm like ma'am, we don't
have a kill shot yet, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Right, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Times when I've been on the phone with people and I'm
like literally in my mind goingokay, now I have three kill
shots, I'm good.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I would love to play one of the clips for an upcoming
episode that we have in whichyou, in fact, were named, but in
a good way, because it speaksto this very topic.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Hey, we have bless me episodes, okay, so it's not
just forgive me, a lot of peoplewhenever I meet them in person,
I'm like do take a selfie withme, print that out, put it on
the wall of your office.
Oh, lovely People know that.
You know this.
Everyone will see this podcast.
We are close friends, we hangout all the time and if anything
bad happens to you, Thank youbecause we have definitely
(22:23):
needed it ourselves and we knowmany people who also do.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Let's share an example.
This is a story of a group ofpeople who came together to
report on someone, and thennothing happened.
Speaker 5 (22:36):
So we went through the whole thing.
I told the journalist the story.
I told you guys about throwingmy friend's shoe for his dog and
the journalist said I don't getit.
And I said what don't you get?
And she was like I don't getwhat he did.
That was bad and what that saysabout him.
And my heart just sank.
If you don't understand theessential nature of a
(22:57):
narcissistic abuser, I don'tknow that you should be writing
these stories, because for methat shows that my friend wasn't
a person, that my friend'sproperty didn't matter, that he
could do this in front of peopleand no one would say anything.
I mean, for me it says a lotabout Bleep and what he was
showing.
In that moment I got reallyfucking worried.
But he just kept pushingforward to do the story.
(23:18):
Then they talked to people he'dbeen racist to.
They talked to all thesedifferent people.
They talked to people he'd beenracist to.
They talked to all thesedifferent people.
Then B***h found out it washappening because the
journalists reached out to himfor comment and he started
posting on his Instagram abouthow he's not been the best guy
in the past.
But now he meditates.
You know what I mean.
And then the article came outand nobody gave a shit.
(23:38):
It just wasn't a well-writtenpiece and I guess the star of
his show believed him and hedidn't lose his job.
Well-written piece and I guessthe star of his show believed
him and he didn't lose his job.
So now this man is stillrunning.
This fucking sex pest, is incharge of all these stories that
get told on his massivelypopular network.
And not only that, but he'sgetting paid a shit ton of money
because the reporter didn'tknow what she had.
You know what I mean.
(23:59):
Like she just didn't understand.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Would love to hear your thoughts on that clip.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
So that but that's a story did come out.
Is that what I heard?
A?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
story did come out and why I say you were named in
this story and they.
We asked the confessor if itwas okay to say this to you and
they said it was so is that theysaid it didn't go to Mo Ryan,
it went to somebody else.
They said it didn't go to MoRyan, it went to somebody else.
And this was the result thatthe story came out and nothing
happened to the perpetrator.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Well, here's the thing.
There have been stories Mo Ryanhas done and nothing happened.
I do feel flattered.
I do.
I do.
This is a complicated one.
You know I've had to haveconversations with people on my
side of the fence.
You know editors, or you knowpeople I'm working with to help
them understand what abusivenarcissism looks like.
(24:52):
I mean, it sounds overall likethat person didn't feel with,
respected or heard in theprocess.
This is really difficult workand when I say I try to respect
my sources, I also respect themenough to tell them the truth,
and that has led to some tensemoments.
I've had stories where someonesays oh, I understand you have
(25:15):
such and so documentation, canyou send that to me?
I can't why?
Because I have to every singleminute of every story I'm doing.
Think about how that looks in acourt of law a year from now.
Wow.
Does it look like I was helpingyou too much?
That I was.
You know what I mean?
Like I've many times had towonder is this a sock puppet
(25:37):
account approaching me?
Who's recording me?
Who's on the other end of thiscall?
I mean, because I don't knowthese people either.
Do you know what I mean?
I do think, though, that one ofthe things that you get in a
performative industry full ofstorytellers and, by the way,
I'm not using either of thosethings as necessarily as like
slurs you know what I mean or aslike negative phrases, but a
(26:00):
lot of people, including me, didnot understand all of the
different ways in which abusivebehaviors can be masked or
cloaked in something that seemsokay or even good.
I've had a difficult past andI've had a difficult life and
I've had a difficult everything.
A lot of clinical narcissists,a lot of abusive personality
(26:21):
types.
They themselves do not believethat that's what they're doing
and they're storytellers Ifthey're being paid to tell
stories.
A lot of people, regardless oftheir level of self-awareness,
are very good at managing upward.
You guys know this.
If the studio is an overalldeal with someone, an
established player who's had ahit in the past, all of the
(26:45):
incentives are toward oh, thisdude got a raw deal in the press
.
Oh, this was overblown.
All of that being said, thebiggest context I want to give
on the reporting.
Part of this is that, in a timewhen my industry is collapsing
and on fire and in a very badstate, many, many people I know,
(27:05):
including myself, took on abrand new full-time job on top
of everything else going on inour lives, to do this work, and
to do it ethically.
Everyone's made mistakes, butto do it ethically and to do it
while knowing that we could besued, our careers could also be
over.
Do you know what I mean?
So it's very difficult to doall of that.
(27:26):
So that's the overall context Iwant to set in people's minds.
That being said, some peopleare just really insensitive and
I don't want more people in thisworld to go through abuse or
damaging behavior orexploitative, narcissistic you
know whatever you want to callthe behavior, the patterns of
damage towards other people.
(27:47):
Vindictiveness is huge in theindustry, as you know.
I think some people haven'texperienced it.
And it's fundamental, like Ioften think, if I wasn't a
survivor, would I have done mywork the way that I did it?
I don't.
I'm not glad I went throughthat.
I mean it's not like hooray,but it made me understand just
(28:08):
how vulnerable people are.
Just to take that step ofcalling or emailing a reporter.
People are terrified.
They're taking a leap in thedark.
They don't know you, they don'tknow me, and so I respect that,
like I respect the fear.
I let them know the things thatI can let them know.
But if I don't give peoplerespect and agency within the
(28:28):
process, I've had people say twomonths into a story I don't
want to participate anymore.
I'm like, okay, because this isa big thing about how I
approach this stuff.
If pulling one source out of astory causes the house of cards
to collapse, then I don't knowthat.
You really had a story there.
And there have been stories,I'll tell you this too.
(28:49):
I didn't take them because I didenough poking around that I
thought.
I do believe that this person,that this was their experience,
but I do think that there's muchmore going on here that is much
more nuanced.
Sometimes I think people haveused this process of like
someone getting called out inthe press to take down one of
their rivals and that's anunfortunate thing that I've seen
(29:11):
a few times where, like someonegot fired for something that I
don't think was good For me.
It was on the borderline.
One thing I say a lot to peopleis look, what I'm not going to
do is do a massive story aboutone person's one bad day.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
That is a really great rule of thumb.
We've had somewhat similarsituations come our way on the
podcast and I am stealing that.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Like I'm not going to weaponize somebody's bad, worst
day, and so that's one of the.
I've mentioned this before.
But you know I have a wholehost of criteria that I'm
looking for.
What I'm looking for, and oneof them is is this a situation
where I'm weaponizing oneperson's really bad day?
And honestly, if I'm honest, II'm at the point now where I
(30:02):
think the reason I wrote aboutLost, the reason I wrote about
Sleepy Hollow, the reason I'vewritten about the things I've
written about, is because theyare symptoms of systemic
problems I no longer want to do.
Person X over here did the badthings.
I mean like how many?
There will always be a need forthose stories.
(30:23):
I don't know that I'm the rightperson to do them anymore,
because they are very taxing andI would much rather talk about.
Oh okay, so the studio knewthat.
Right.
The studio.
I cannot tell you the number oftimes where it's like what are
the odds this person turned outto be?
There have been times when Ijust do, basically I hear about
(30:43):
somebody who has a bat, you knowlike something's going wrong
with this production and what Ithen do is like call around to
my industry contacts and be likehey.
And they're all like, oh yeah,that not good.
I'm like, oh okay, so thestudio did absolutely none of
this, vetting that.
I'm now like it's taken me twohours to find out that this
person's reputation is horrific.
(31:05):
It's not as sexy, it doesn'tlend itself to the headline.
But especially in the book, alot of my chapter about Lost or
about Sleepy Hollow was likewhat were the people controlling
the levers of power doing aboutthis?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
This is such a fascinating subject to get into.
There's a story that I alwaystell which is so fascinating,
just like from an objectiveperspective.
It happened right after Me Too.
I was an assistant on a show.
I had dealt with a lot ofsexual harassment in various
forms throughout my life.
And I'm an assistant on a showand an EP walks up to me.
(31:45):
I have never spoken to this man, we have no relationship.
He walks up to me in the middleof the room while I'm taking
notes and starts rubbing myshoulders.
No, and I was like what the fuck?
And nobody's there too.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
I mean, first of all, it's bad if it's just you, but
it's bad Like okay, that's sofucking creepy, because I hear
about this kind of shit all thefucking time, and when they do
it in front of a bunch of otherpeople, it's a power.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
No, I think, I think, I actually have the power now,
so I waited until after the roomwas over and I got him
one-on-one and I told him we'regoing to adopt a strict no touch
(32:36):
policy, you and I.
And the look on his face all ofa sudden he was terrified.
It clicked for for him and hetotally understood that the
power was on my side and if heever fucking touched me again he
was going to go down.
And he was like understood, andhe never did anything like that
again.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
So that's actually like.
Here's the thing.
I think about this a lot.
I heard about an incident inwhich a man had his laptop open
before the room like everyone'slike kind of assembling, like
the showrunner wasn't there thisdude is at angling, or no, it
was.
It was um, you know, a tablet.
He's purposely angling histablet so that his female
co-worker can see a bunch ofdick pics oh my god we know what
(33:17):
that is right, yeah, man rightwhat no.
Like all the no's Plus anadditional Costco serving of
no's what the fuck, dude?
And so this was someone Ithought about writing about,
like in the early.
Like you know, that early timeof Me Too was like a lot, of, a
lot of shit was going down.
(33:37):
Yeah.
So I talked to this person thatit happened to a few times.
I think a lot of people evenhave trouble like naming
something for what it is becausethe industry gaslights people
into like but like.
So I like I said to her at onepoint like, did you feel okay
going to your showrunner?
She's like yes, I would.
And I actually know that theshowrunner dude and he seems
(33:59):
like a good dude.
And to me a big question alwaysis would you have felt
comfortable going to a superiorwith power, whether it's the
showrunner, an exec, whoever isthat person someone you could
have gone to?
Because this is something Itell people who do end up in
showrunner positions all thetime how can I get people to
understand that they can trustme?
But I'm like you have to justshow it how do you?
(34:21):
react when the lunch order iswrong how do you?
Pushing back on a show idea.
How do you like you will do 500things in a week that
everyone's watching?
The only way people know thatthey can trust you is by
watching how you operate, andI'm sorry if you can't take the
scrutiny.
Maybe showrunners not for youor maybe powerful person's not
(34:41):
for you.
So she's like, yeah, I couldhave.
What she actually did was Ithink she's oh, she said it in
the room.
She's like, hey, everybody thisperson is purposely on his
tablet showing me inappropriatematerial whoa, that is explosive
baller yeah, I would have beenlike because it's so like I hate
how much it puts it on theindividual to be like what do I
(35:03):
do?
But, as you know, that's thereality of it, unfortunately,
like you are put in anunwinnable position a lot of
times.
So she says that and he's likeoh, there's an accident, what's
it away?
It never happens again, nothing.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yes, yes, I love it.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
I'm not going to weaponize somebody's worst day,
unless that worst day or bad dayis part of the pattern.
If it is, you know you have togive people the opportunity to
understand, and I it's.
I don't.
I don't think that what thatshowrunner did or that what that
ep did to you was right.
It was not right, it never wasright, but I think this it's so.
(35:41):
Part of what makes it so hardis this industry put forward the
idea that boundaries are wrongand anti-art and anti-creativity
, which is something thatpsychopaths put forward.
I mean the industry sort offunctions as like the lead
sociopath.
You know what I mean.
So I think it being a humanbeing means looking back at some
(36:04):
of your past behavior andhaving like an absolute
shockwave or go through yourlike oh God, did I say that?
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, yeah, this, this whole conversation.
It brings up a big questionthat I've been meaning to ask
you being a journalist, throughme to, through pay up Hollywood,
through Time's Up, through allthese different movements.
Where do you sort of see thenext movement coming from?
Through Me Too, through Pay UpHollywood, through Time's Up,
through all these differentmovements no-transcript and
really just not being crushed bythe machine.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
You know like basically consciousness around
exploitation as the businessmodel.
Do you know what I mean?
I mean first of all.
The first part of my answer ishaving been around for decades,
literally, I have seen progressin every single area not happen,
be long overdue when it startsto happen and then stop and then
(36:57):
go backward.
So I do not think that we areanywhere near we need to be in
terms of equity, when you knowwhen many, many studies that we
could all cite are talking about, like the number of women of
color directors of studio filmshas remained constant.
You know there was a study thatcame out a year or two ago
where many, I think by USCAnnenberg, you know many
(37:21):
indicators in the film space,whatever gains they had made in
the wake of supposed reckoningson race and gender, they went
backward again.
So, like Hollywood, gains arevery hard fought.
I think there's a couple,there's a few consciousnesses
that have been raised, and oneof them is amongst the people
who have at least some power.
(37:42):
There is a consciousness thatthese gains are hard fought and
sometimes don't even happen in areal way.
You know on a real level, knowon a real level.
So I think, I think amongstpeople who are, you know,
running shows now, who are youknow eps or creators or
directors, with you know sort ofexperience and maybe, again, I
(38:02):
always feel conscious of thefact, like people I know and who
are still willing to talk to me, I'm like I'm over sampling for
the people who care.
If you haven't threatened mewith your through your lawyers,
then you know.
Like you know I'm, there's aself-selecting group that I talk
to, but I do think that there'sa consciousness that not only
are these gains over the pasthundred years of Hollywood hard
(38:25):
to achieve and then hard to holdon to, but I think that there's
just a larger understandingaround the idea that the
machinery is set up to takeeverything back from the people
who make it and now it's set upto like not give them anything
on.
You know, up front even.
You know it's interesting to,it's interesting to watch the
(38:49):
mentality of the average workingprofessional in the industry.
You know, in New York, la, evenin London, toronto, wherever
you want to call it, vancouver,I think that they've been
labor-pilled to, I actuallythink, a heartening extent.
You know, the thing that theindustry has accomplished at a
(39:11):
few points in its history issharing the spoils a little bit
more fairly.
To be clear, mostly for whitepeople, mostly for straight
people, fully for cisgenderpeople and abled bodied people
usually.
But what?
What happened to achieve a sortof stasis, you know, especially
(39:31):
during the time that I oftelevision that I love, that
love that I very much, am veryglad to have written about is
certain people, under certainconditions, got to share in the
wealth a little more thatachieving a level of
(39:53):
non-precarity at work, achievinga level of financial security,
achieving the ability to have afuture and be a caregiver, pay
for caregiving, pay for a lifethat is illusory, and what
really really brought it homefor me was, even before the
(40:14):
strike, even before the pandemic.
You know people that I know,people whose names you know we
know we're like, yeah, I have tosell my house and move.
The number of people I've metin the industry who could retire
, who could stop workingtomorrow and have a full and
nice, comfortable life until theday they die at age 80.
I've never known that manypeople in that category.
(40:34):
But I think, thank God, amongthe public there's a greater
awareness that that's not reallya thing Like yes, there's a
small 1% that you know.
I don't want Margot Robbie tostop working.
But like if Margot Robbie wentor you know, if Meryl Streep
wanted to take five yearsbetween jobs, she could, but
like that's a very, very smallnumber of people, I think that
(41:11):
there's just a largerconsciousness around the
structure, of how muchexploitation is baked into all
these structures and how muchaction and solidarity, frankly,
is required to fight it.
It always makes me extremelynervous to talk about the state
of Hollywoodllywood changebecause I've just seen it rolled
back so many times and notbecause people were like, yay, I
want to undo the gains we'vemade.
It's more that the machine isset up to undo them and I just,
and then it's set up to amongstthe people who get into that 1%
(41:34):
of independently wealthy people.
It's also set up to reinforcetheir priors.
This is why I said in my bookthe people that I reserve
judgment for are the people whohave the power to change
anything.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
You know, you made the comment that an individual
can change, and we're talkingabout like a person-to-person
interaction.
An individual can be empoweredand an individual can also have
an opportunity to change.
Now we're talking aboutcollective action and the power
that people can have throughcollective action, and then that
kind of almost gets us to thepoint like systemic toxicity and
(42:12):
like the people at the very topor the system, um, the the
system and the way that it'sbuilt on the inside.
But do you think that in theway that an individual can
change, do you think that thesystem can change, or do you?
Are you still very much likeburn it down, start over?
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I do think.
I do think the system canchange I do, actually but we
have to keep in mind that when Isay that it can change for the
worse, I mean ask actors howthey feel about self-tapes being
the only thing like you knowwhat I?
mean we have to keep in mindthat the system can change.
And I think a lot about thecarrot and the stick and I've
been, you know.
(42:53):
I feel like there's like thecling on pain stick, like like
that's one of these.
I feel like I have to use thatmyself personally more than I
would like.
But, but the two things, ifwe're going to talk about
positive change, you know, forthe money or for the individual
we have to talk about is, youknow, I feel like I kind of have
a like a shtick.
I should make it like a YouTubevideo or something.
(43:15):
Here's the thing, the twothings.
We can sit here all day and talkabout toxicity in terms of
norms, in terms of individualpeople, in terms of standards,
in terms of institutional andsystemic abuse, toxicity and
biases, but the two things thatalways work.
What absolutely humbles me andfloors me in a good way is that
(43:36):
people are very often wantingrelief for themselves, but even
more so they want to help others.
So that's the big first thing.
And then the second thing is alot of people in Hollywood don't
want to be good.
They want to seem good.
You can use that.
You can use that.
What they hate is bad PR.
(43:57):
That's my bad pop single.
It's coming out.
It's dropping on Tuesday.
You heard it here first.
I've been, I've been in a trade,I've been at fancy pants vanity
fair.
I've been at you know urbannewspaper.
(44:20):
I've been like, I've been outin general and I can tell you
the one unifying thing is thisand this is what's crazy, but
you can use it Cheat code fromMaureen Ryan, my next book.
The cheat code is they careabout publicly seeming good and
getting validation, and this iswhat's crazy to me.
It took me so long to figurethis out Because someone will be
(44:47):
sitting across the table fromme like they're not feigning it,
because they're not that goodof an actor, because they're a
writer and writers are usuallynot good at it.
They care what I think and I'mlike why does this person care
what I think?
They're worth like $50 million?
And I'm like why does thisperson care what I think?
They're worth like $50 million?
And I'm like some jackass, likeI'm pretty okay, right, or
jackass, but I'm like why doesanyone care what I think?
No one cares, but that's thething that never goes away.
Why do people stay in the gamewhen they are independently
(45:07):
wealthy, when they do have ashelf of awards.
Why?
Why do they do it?
They want validation, and Idon't think that's bad.
To be clear, I want validationtoo.
When my book was on the newyork times bestseller list, I
cried a whole freaking bunch.
I was really oh it's nice to bevalidated.
Yeah, this is my position onaward shows.
(45:29):
Everyone should get up, shouldbe able to get up, you know, get
fancy dressed up and drinksomebody else's booze and get an
award, because you know whatit's like when you're working on
a project.
You're working 12 to 14 hourdays.
You're not like, well, this isfor sure going to get an Emmy.
You're like I just want to getpaid and, like you know, have a
decent time.
But then when it does get anEmmy, it's like nice bonus.
So validation is okay, but youcan use it.
(45:59):
You can use it.
The one thing that thecompanies and the studios that I
deal with time and again, theunifying thing throughout 30
years of industry change is theyhate looking bad?
People in the industry.
The more power they get, themore they fear looking bad.
They don't care about being bad, but if you can hit them with
the bad PR pain stick, orthreaten to hit them with the
bad PR pain stick, that doeschange the industry.
(46:21):
It does.
Let's just take my book, which,by the way, coming out in
paperback in June, if you prefera paperback format.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Oh man, I do prefer paperback, thank you.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
The thing I think about a lot and I can go into
the bad spirals.
I have so many bad spirals likethis whole wall right here is
just like which bad spiral noone of the bad spirals is, you
know, if you're like, oh wow, motalked about some situations in
the past that were real bad.
Some of them aren't in the past,by the way, but a lot of the
(46:55):
people who were standing aroundand silently endorsing what was
going on while doing a HomerSimpson into the bushes and not
getting sort of tagged with it,they're still in the industry
and they're more powerful thanthey were then.
So here's my thing.
I hope that my book made somepeople real scared about what I
(47:16):
might drop, about them goingforward, and it's possible that
in my career as a reportermaking a very general statement
about no one in particular thatthere are some people who,
through my legal reps, at somepoint in my career not recently
for sure, as far as you knowknow my legal reps have had to
say ps, not everything that moryan knows about you went, went
(47:39):
into this work that she did ohyeah love that you'd like to
open up a process of discovery,bring it, motherfucker.
You know I think I think I'vesaid a lot now for six, seven
years is a lot of people have myphone number.
You know, a lot of people knowhow to hit me up on signal.
You should wonder if they'vehit me up about not you
personally, but like I have asort of like hypothetical you.
(48:01):
You know, there's a lot ofperformative bullshit and then
there's a lot of people who makeit about them and their tears.
I don't, you know, that's whatyour therapist is for.
I don't care about your tears.
Yeah therapist is, for I don'tcare about your tears.
Yeah, a lot of people get a lotof chances that, as you know,
um are not doled out equallyacross the industry.
(48:21):
I do believe in second chances.
I do believe in evolution andchange and calling in instead of
calling out.
You know speaking.
I said before oh god, I getreally nervous when we talk
about change.
I get really nervous when wetalk about change.
I also get really nervous whenwe talk about how do we allow
for change and evolution?
(48:57):
Narcissistic, sociopathic or insome other way, an abusive
personality type, manipulate thegoodness and the authenticity
and the hopefulness and optimismand help of good people.
That is something that I thinkis particularly endemic in this
industry, and I can tell you fora fact there are any number of
abusive personalities who 100don don't believe that's what
they are, and the industry hasgaslit everyone else into going
(49:20):
along with what you know.
Oh, but he needs this or she'sno, no, no, no.
And I think, hopefully, thatthat's changing too in terms of
like.
Where is change at?
Speaker 2 (49:31):
Yeah, the gaslighting thing is really.
It's interesting.
Our first episode of the seasonjust dropped today actually and
gaslighting was a major part ofthat confessor's experience,
and so we've been talking a lotabout it lately.
Collective action, peoplegaining a little bit more
clarity about the industry andhow it has historically
(49:57):
functioned, how it hashistorically abused and
exploited laborers.
It feels like that makesgaslighting more and more
difficult as time goes on,because there's just been too
much light shed on what'sactually going on, and I think
that's a great thing.
Speaker 3 (50:20):
I totally agree and I think that we have much further
to go.
Frankly, I do Because one ofthe things that scares the shit
out of me is the following, andI've seen it up close, and I've
seen it up close recently in away that's deeply terrifying
there are some people who willnever, ever admit, let alone
change, admit their behavior andtheir whole way of being in the
world is dangerous and and andnot good.
(50:42):
There are some like the thingis it's an industry of
storytellers.
What does the industry do whensomeone says, you know, preaches
to the skies morning, noon andnight, that they are innocent,
that they're good, that theyhave a story for why this is
this way?
They have a very elaboratestory for why these people are
complaining this, that and theother.
(51:02):
There are some people who areincapable, for whatever reason,
of change.
There are some people who, forwhatever reason and we, at a
certain point, you don't need togive a shit about the reason
are going to continue to harm orexploit or in some way damage
people.
And the industry's guardrailsfor that shit are basically
(51:24):
still non-existent as far as I'mconcerned, except for going to
the press, people at the tophave to be forced to listen to
the accounts of someone otherthan that person.
That person has spun so muchbullshit and so many people
bought it for so long that theyfeel embarrassed to be publicly
kind of outed as this person'senabler.
(51:44):
Here's the thing.
I don't care Again.
Go to therapy, go to a bar, dowhat you're going to do, and I
think that that is a change.
Think that that is a changethat I do think that the
smartest people near the top orat the top reaches of Hollywood.
There is no going back topeople just suffering in silence
on mass anymore.
I do think that, quietly, thereare people who haven't worked a
(52:05):
lot the last few years.
Good.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
I think this is an amazing place to wrap up.
We've taken so much of yourtime already.
You've been so generous with us.
Speaker 3 (52:13):
This is all such stuff so near and dear to my
heart.
So I'm honored to be able totalk.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Thank you so much.
I've got one last question onmy part and I'm sure you have
other questions as well, but onething we do on our podcast is
we try to shout out the peoplethat are doing good, and we've
definitely heard your namebefore people have shouted you
out.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
Oh me, oh God, I thought you want me to name.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
No, we would love to know who you'd love to shout out
.
Who have you seen doing good inthis industry?
Speaker 3 (52:42):
Melinda Hsu.
Knowing her has been a huge,enormous privilege.
She's now the training that Italked about in my book.
She's sort of taking it on theroad and she's pitching it to
studios of like.
Here's how we can all arrive atnorms and feel heard and also
(53:02):
be a cost-effective andproductive and efficient
workplace.
You know, and it's a two-daytraining, I got to sit in on it
via Zoom.
She's doing incredible stuff.
You know, javi Grigio-Marxwatchif the dude did nothing else
putting out the 11 Lodge ofShowrunning, which I find very
helpful, just as a person in theworld working with other human
beings in the world I meanHarold Perrineau, monica O
(53:25):
Subrene I could cry sitting hereright now when I think about
I'm getting a little teary.
There's so many people who inmy reporting processes we would
talk about being scared you knowwhat I mean Like we off the
record when we were just likedone with the interview, like
(53:46):
what do you think is going tohappen?
Many people have asked me doyou think I'm going to get sued?
And so one thing I can do issay if this comes out in a piece
or a book that I'm working on,please understand, I've talked
to lawyers about this and neversay never about anything,
because some people are justbatshit crazy and terrible and
(54:08):
have a lot of money for lawyers.
But you know, if anyone's goingto take the the heat, it's
going to be whoever's publishingthis, and me so.
But a lot of people have riskeda lot.
A lot of people have risked somuch.
Orlando jones, there are somany people, god, I just, I know
I'm going to think of people,but but you know there are
(54:29):
people who are puttingsystematic reforms and actions
on the table.
And I'll close with somethingyou know we started out just
today talking about change,right, hopefully he's cool with
it because he and I have talkedabout it many times.
But Javi Grigio-Marxwatch, youknow there was that episode of
(54:50):
the 100 where a queer characterdied and you know, for any
number of reasons, that became ahuge flashpoint.
I was sort of very much on thefront lines of the social media
and in DMs with people andactually like counseling people
in a weird way, like I'm not acounselor, but like talking
people through their pain andthe community, the crisis the
(55:11):
community was going through, thequeer community especially, and
there were people you know atrisk because our world is not
kind to queer people, especiallyqueer youth and um.
But what Javi modeled in thatmoment hopefully you all can
absorb this because I think youstill can't.
In that moment he listened andlistened and he said I'm hearing
(55:35):
you, I'm listening to you.
He would retweet the oppositeof what this industry tells
people to model.
You modeled humility and and hedidn't have an answer.
(56:00):
Like his name was on thatscript but he didn't.
He wasn't telling people whatto feel.
There was a few couple yearslater.
There was devoted to um,lgbtqia people on tv and you
know actors and you know membersof the community who, like, all
(56:21):
wanted to have like a conaround, kind of like queer tv.
Javi at one point rolled up tothe bar at that con.
He was invited to that con andhe was scared.
He's like what do you think'sgonna happen?
I'm like I think a lot ofpeople are going to buy you
drinks.
So imagine what is required whena community is really
understandably angry aboutsomething, and then you become
(56:42):
an even more beloved part ofthat community, despite your
role in a situation that wasincredibly difficult.
That is how it can work, and soI will never lose hope.
I want to lose hope Sometimes.
I want to be like nihilism.
It's great, but I can't,because I have so many examples
I can look at where peoplechanged the paradigm Individuals
(57:03):
did, or people as groups did.
It's possible.
And I'm Mo Ryan.
Vote for me for president.
I felt at the end I was like amI pitching something here?
I'm not good at endings.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
We say amen.
We thank you so much for this,Mo.
This has been an amazinginterview, and the way that we
typically end our episodes is tosay go create in peace.
Speaker 3 (57:34):
Thank you so much and you guys are great, thank you.
Typically, end our episodes isto say go create in peace.
Thank you so much and you guysare great, thank you.
And I do believe that, likeit's so heartening just to talk
to you because you, you're man,you know your generation is not
going to fucking take it, and Ilove it, and I love it.
So go forth and fuck it up Burnit down.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
The Hollywood Confessional is produced by
Megan Dane and Jair Zamora-Thal.
Joelle Garfinkel is ourco-producer and AJ Thal is our
post-production coordinator andeditor.
Special effects provided byZapSplat and Pixabay.
Hollywood Confessional is aNinth Way Media production.
Follow us on socials atFessUpHollywood.
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