April 25, 2024 • 50 mins
Hello Hollywood Faithful! Today we've got an on the record interview with Liz Hsiao Lan Alper and Alex Rubin of Pay Up Hollywood.
Pay Up Hollywood began as grassroots movement in 2019, in an attempt to bring attention to the pay inequities, abuses and struggles of many Hollywood assistants. In subsequent years, PayUpHollywood has campaigned for Hollywood studios and companies to pay support staffers a living wage, in an effort to both tear down the paywall that keeps historically underprivileged voices out of the industry and to ensure current support staff can afford to work in their current position. PayUpHollywood aims to provide resources and aid to current entertainment support staffers as well as ongoing data and information about entertainment support staffers to other groups and companies who want to be part of the solution.
You can find more information on their website payuphollywood.com or on their socials, @payuphollywood for X (fka Twitter) and @payup.hollywood on Instagram.
Connect with us:
Check out some of our favorite shows:
- Screenwriters' Rant Room
- Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss
- It Happened in Hollywood
- The Secret History of Hollywood
Hollywood Confessional is a Ninth Way Media production, produced by Meagan Daine and J.R. Zamora-Thal.
Sound Effects and Music provided by Zapsplat and Pixabay.
Keywords: filmmaking podcast, film podcast, screenwriting podcast, entertainment podcast, Hollywood, filmmaking, writerslife, actorslife, setlife
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
In nomine Cinema e TV , espiritu Streaming Amen.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, it's been a minute since we've done one of
these live interviews, so Ishould have like thought about
what I was going to say beforelet's dive in.
Welcome back to the HollywoodConfessional.
We have Liz Shaulon, alper andAlex Rubin today from Pay Up
Hollywood.
We are so super excited to haveyou guys on the podcast.
This is one of our new sort offormats that we landed on last
(00:40):
year during the strike, which isa instead of a forgive me
father podcast, this is a blessme father podcast, for I have
made Hollywood a happier place,so that's what you guys are here
for.
Welcome, and thank you so muchfor joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I'm sorry I'm laughing so hard.
I just keep thinking like blessme, daddy.
I don't know, it's not thatkind of podcast.
Like a hot priest, is justforever imprinted itself in my
brain Like no matter what.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I just keep thinking my Irish Catholic grandmother
would be so happy, right now, jrand I started this podcast this
is our third season, so liketwo and a half years ago now for
support staffers, basicallybecause it was like we have been
support staffers, we know thatthere's like so many stories of
horrible and funny and crazythings that happened to you that
(01:32):
you can't talk about, right?
And so we were like, yeah, it'dbe really nice if there was a
way to like confess these ideasin private.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
And then JR, with his Catholic background you can
take the boy out of the church,but you can't take the church
out of the boy.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, so it's a little tongue-in-cheek, but we
enjoy it and, again, thank youguys for being here.
So we're here to talk about PayUp Hollywood.
That's what we're blessing youfor.
Thank you for doing this thing.
And for people who are notfamiliar with the organization,
could you guys kind of give usan overview of what it is and
like who you were and how thisthing came about?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Yeah, so Pay Up Hollywood started off as a
grassroots movement among thesupport staff in Hollywood a few
years ago.
Basically, there were a lot ofsupport staffers who had been
listening to a wonderful podcasthosted by John August and Craig
Mazin called Script Notes.
Ultimately, what happened wasJohn August had reached out to
(02:30):
me me being Liz Alper askingabout assistant stories in
Hollywood, and this has been anissue I've been extremely
passionate about since comingout to Hollywood pretty much, I
want to say, 15 years ago now,so 2008, during the last strike.
And what it does is it's agrassroots movement that focuses
on eradicating the financialbarriers as well as shines a
(02:53):
light on workplace abuses anddifferent sorts of financial,
emotional, mental abuses thatassistants and support staff
tend to go through, andessentially, it's trying to make
sure that this next generationof Hollywood isn't limited to
the people who can afford to payto play and who also have the
(03:15):
sort of toxic background thathas perpetuated toxicity in
Hollywood.
The people who tend to thrivein toxic environments are the
ones who take enjoyment, theones who really want to make
sure that there are other peopleto throw under the bus, to make
sure that they can always keepthemselves in the background,
(03:38):
but also in charge.
That's, frankly, the sort ofindustry that we inherited and
that's the industry that we'retrying to change.
The sort of industry that weinherited and that's the
industry that we're trying tochange.
And that sort of change needsto be happening at every single
level.
But it starts with thefoundation, and when the
foundation is as rotted asHollywood's is, when it
basically sustains itself onunderpaying employees,
(03:59):
especially at the first rung oftheir career, and ensuring that
that sort of financial abuse islumped into this sort of paying
your dues attitude that we'vecome to install in every single
person that has come intoHollywood.
You have to pay your dues, youhave to pay your dues, and
paying your dues means takingwhatever emotional, financial,
(04:23):
mental, physical abuse in theworkplace that your employees
want to hurl at you.
Ultimately, it's a way to ripout the old foundation of
Hollywood and make sure that thenew foundation ensures both a
sustainable career for anyonejust starting out, but also a
(04:43):
safe and prospering workplacefor anyone who is not looking to
promote a toxic environment.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
I'll just say that I was not with Liz at the start of
this.
I came in at the beginning ofthis past strike and I came in
because of rage.
I was so angry that we wereclearly barreling towards a WGA
and potentially DGA andpotentially SAG strike and it
(05:12):
meant that any assistant thatwas connected to these other
professions that were going togo on strike could not work, but
at the same time there was nosafety net for them, and I
yelled about it a lot to myshowrunner.
At the same time, there was nosafety net for them and I yelled
about it a lot to my showrunnerat the time and she said you
(05:34):
should meet Liz Alpert.
Cheryl is amazing.
Yeah, cheryl is amazing.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
This is like clearly a match made in heaven.
Cheryl has listened to me rantabout, you know, the different
sort of socioeconomic barriersthat Hollywood has enacted and
basically rebranded itself aswe're a meritocracy, without
taking into account that a lotof people can't afford to take
on even assistant jobs.
(05:57):
There are assistants right nowwho are working second jobs in
order to afford that first job,which is as a Hollywood
assistant, a set PA, a castingPA, anyone in any department.
We keep using the term supportstaff and we've been looking for
a better, all-encompassing termto basically designate who it
(06:19):
is that we fight for.
It's for those people who areat the first or second rung on
their career ladder, whetherthat's a set PA, whether that's
someone in the mailroom, whetherthat's somebody who works for a
consulting company that isbased in entertainment and
they're the receptionist.
They should still be making aliving wage.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Well, I remember when I was an intern I was not
getting paid at all and I had towork construction in the
mornings from 6 am to about 2 pm.
I'd run to the internship at 3pm and work until 6 or 7, just
to get my hours in to learn.
Yeah, it was a pretty crazyschedule.
Yeah, but you know, I did itbecause it was worth it to me,
and the sad reality is that Iwas happy to do it Exactly.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
And that's, I think, one of the major issues that
people on the first couple ofrungs of the ladder face, where
they know that I should begrateful I got this job and
there are 10 other people whowant this job.
One of my actually my veryfirst scripted position was the
writer's assistant on House,which, if you are a millennial I
(07:23):
have now talked to Gen Z kidswho are like that was my dad's
favorite show growing up and ithurts it hurts so much.
It hurts, it's so painful, buton that show for me getting that
position, I received a payraise.
I suddenly could make my rentfor the first time pretty much
(07:47):
ever in my assistant life.
But let me remind you, this is2011.
And my salary at that point was$750 a week.
That is the same salary thatmany writer's assistants are
making to pull in the dualposition of script coordinator
(08:08):
and writer's assistant, and thatis their 750 is their weekly
take home pay especially well,specifically if you are on a
show where that is insisted onbeing a non-IOTC show meaning
that the writer's assistants andthe script coordinators do not
make union rates.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
show meaning that the writer's assistants and the
script coordinators do not makeunion rates.
There are non-IATSE shows.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I was under the impression that every single
show was an IATSE show.
At this point, every singleshow, I believe, is an IATSE
show in terms of production, butwhen it comes to the writing
room positions, not every showis an IATSE show.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Wow, is that based on the studio?
Speaker 3 (08:43):
That's based on the studio.
I believe it's an enforcementissue as well.
For those of you who don't know, I was also a member of the WGA
board for a while-IATSE.
Writing rooms have been tryingto fix, but ultimately it's
(09:08):
something that is being workedon, but not every writer's room
is covered by IATSE and so notevery writer's assistant and
script coordinating position iscovered by IATSE, which, as you
guys know, means you don't getthose contributions.
You can speak to what you loseout better than I can.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, that's the difference between healthcare
and another off the top of myhead, like $500 a week in
take-home pay.
Yeah, that's nuts, it's insane.
Do you know who like the mainoffenders are?
I would one.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I strongly urge you guys to reach out to IATSE and
especially to your reps.
Is it 871?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
that covers.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah, so I would reach out to your union reps at
871, but also reach out to yourboard members.
I know there are several writer, assistant script coordinator,
board members who have beentrying to fix this issue and,
quite frankly, it's one thateverybody should know about.
The more that people are awarethat this is happening, the more
(10:11):
power you have behind you,because the more people you have
saying absolutely not, we arenot going to let this happen.
This needs to be fixed.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, that's honestly shocking.
I'm completely shocked rightnow.
I did not know that this wasgoing on.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Oh, there are many.
I think I just worked on mysecond show.
That was not covered.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
So to take it back a little bit, alex, you mentioned
a little bit about where youwere coming from when you joined
, but, liz, could you talk alittle bit about where you were
at in your life Right after?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I won my first election to be on the WGA board.
Hashtag pay a Hollywood cameinto being and for me, I had
just come off of a very publicelection where I had gathered a
lot of goodwill and was veryaware that I had gathered a lot
of goodwill and goodwill expires.
The fact was I had gottenelected because prior to the
(11:04):
election, I had been focusing ondifferent election.
We were pro-action, and so thatbecame kind of a lightning rod
(11:30):
of polarizing opinions.
It was a really, really hardtime to be in leadership for the
WGA because we had a verydivided membership and we had
actually just gone through thatelection losing a lot of friends
.
Like I had friends who did notspeak to me.
Oh wow, I did not want to speakto them either.
(11:51):
Ultimately, I knew that thiswas goodwill that was going to
go away.
And so if there was one thing Iwas going to be able to do, now
was the time when John came tome asking about this assistant
thing.
The one thing I kind ofrealized I could do was offer a
bit of a shield for anyone whowants to share their stories,
and so what I did was tellassistants if you want to share
(12:13):
your story, throw me under thebus, do whatever you need to do,
Say that Liz Alper was the onethat made me share this and just
use this hashtag, because thisis going to be the only way that
someone reading one story canfind all of the stories that are
being shared, and that'sexactly what happened.
Twitter became overrun withdifferent stories about
(12:35):
financial abuse anywhere fromassistants having to pay lunch
overages for writer's room outof their pockets Yep, lunch
overages for writer's room outof their pockets to set PAs who
had been forced to work, youknow, many, many, many hours of
overtime and then had theirovertime struck by line
(12:56):
producers because, quote unquote, it wasn't approved.
And so, all over the place, wewere getting all these awful
stories about what it wasactually like being at the
bottom rung in Hollywood and howunsustainable it was becoming,
and it became very, very clearthat if we were going to
continue the way that we werepaying assistance less and less
and less each year, we weregoing to lose out on the truly
(13:19):
creative voices that could makethe next generation of Hollywood
leaders, simply because theyeither couldn't afford to pay to
stay in the industry or theycouldn't pay the emotional,
mental, physical well-being tax.
They didn't want to be in anindustry that meant they were
(13:42):
constantly bullied and made tofeel small and just abused every
day.
There is no job in the worldthat is worth that, and the only
people who think that there areare the ones who enjoy being
the kind of, you know, dolingout the kind of abuse that we
see every day in Hollywood.
So ultimately, for me it itbecame a thing knowing that if
(14:06):
I'm going to do one more thingwith with this attention that I
have, let it be this, and sothat's where it kind of took off
, started gaining momentum.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
That's incredible, are you?
Um?
Were you surprised by how ittook off?
Was what were you expectingwhen you started?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I was not expecting where we are today, that's for
damn sure.
I think what I didn't expectwas how many people didn't know
what was happening or how manypeople you saw waking up.
I very much am someone who hadbought the if you are tough
(14:51):
enough to be here, you'd be here.
I bought that hook line andsinker.
I cannot tell you, especiallyas an assistant, how many drinks
I went to.
Where we were just sharingbattle stories, where the person
who went through the mostabusive situation won and that
was supposed to be.
You know, that's a badge ofhonor, you know you won the war
(15:14):
stories.
As opposed to saying, my God, wewould make any therapist
fucking cry right now withtrying to one up each other on
how much abuse we can stomachand how much we can take.
And especially, I think there'sthe cyclical nature of abuse.
I was definitely someone thatwould really expect other
(15:34):
assistants to be able totolerate the sort of abuse that
I had been put through, and ifthey couldn't, to me that was oh
well, you can't make it, theyweren't tough enough, they
weren't cut out for thisindustry.
As opposed to me saying like,maybe the ability to take on a
whole lot of abuse isn't a goodthing.
Maybe that's really really bad.
(15:55):
Maybe that should be the redflag that this entire boat is
taking on water and it's goingto sink if we don't fix it now.
And so you could see, with allof the stories being shared, the
way that people's minds werestarting to shift and starting
to realize that we haveglorified the abusive nature of
(16:16):
the assistant and the supportstaff position, and we should
never have been glorifying it inthe first place.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, you are absolutely speaking our language
right now.
It's so funny because we'vejust recently done a confession.
While you were talking aboutlike, oh, the person with the
most abusive story wins, like inmy head I was like, yeah, they
win season three premiere of theHollywood confessional Right.
(16:42):
But yeah, talking about howabusers thrive and how this has
become an industry, just likeyou said, that thrives on that
very abuse, because it iscyclical and it is perpetuated
by people who have been abusedand I.
It's so fascinating to me totalk to you guys now in person,
(17:02):
because I was just, let's see,was I an assistant, I think by
the time you guys started?
Well, by the time you startedlisten, it started taking off.
I had just maybe gotten staffedfor the first time, but I had a
lot of that residual trauma andso I was kind of like, yeah,
well, they can't take it, fuckthem.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
And all of that stuff .
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And then, similarly, it took me seeing these stories
over and over again and thenfinally being like, oh, this,
this actually is bad.
This is something that's wrongwith me now that I have like
ingested this poison.
So thank you for um, foreverything that you guys have
done in the interim and forpersisting with it and for
(17:44):
seeing it yourself and um.
And then I'm interested, likeat the point at which you
started to realize this wasgoing on, um, in you and in the
community, like how did thataffect your approach?
And then what did you decide todo next?
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Um well, I'll, I'll let Alex speak to her experience
as well, but I went to therapy.
I took on a lot of therapy.
I went to a lot of therapybecause I kind of realized and I
recognized that there were twopaths in front of me I could
continue to.
Already is a cycle of abuse,and so it was easier for me to
(18:27):
recognize that I had fallen intothat pattern because it was a
pattern I was already well awareof.
So for me, weirdly enough, youknow, having an abusive
childhood was a blessing in thisscenario.
But it really came down tounderstanding that I am wrong,
like I am the wronged person inthis scenario.
But it really came down tounderstanding that I am wrong.
I am the wronged person in thisparty.
(18:49):
I am doing harm by continuingthe patterns that assistants
before me had perpetuated.
If I want to be the person thatI like to think I am, that
means actually doing the work tobecome that person, and so it
was a lot of therapy.
It was a lot of really examiningmy own biases, having to be
(19:14):
very brutally honest with myselfand also realizing that when we
were getting stories frompeople being as sensitive as
humanly possible, under nocircumstances was there ever
going to be a time where someonewould come to pay up Hollywood,
share a story and be told.
Well, I think maybe you're notlooking at it in the correct way
(19:34):
, maybe you might be wrong.
No matter what, this is someonewho has suffered a trauma that
has impacted their life and hasharmed them in a significant way
.
They deserve grace.
They did not deserve me sittingthere judging them, and so it
became the number one priorityof mine is making sure that this
was like a no judgment zone, ano shame zone, like under no
(19:59):
circumstances was anyone to beshamed for anything that they
felt, because we all knew whatit was like to be abused and be
traumatized and not be believed.
So for me, that was.
It was just a lot of work,undoing the brainwashing that we
had essentially gone through.
It was deprogramming.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Was there any one event that made you think, oh,
it's time for me to go totherapy?
Or was it just the buildup ofhearing all these stories and
sort of understanding howwriters were perpetuating it in
those days?
Speaker 3 (20:30):
I think it really was .
I was going to therapy forsomething else already and when
I started getting more and morestories, I'm trying to remember
that there was one story inparticular and it was because it
resonated so strongly with me.
It was a young woman who sharedthat accounting had forced her
(20:52):
to pay the lunch overages forher room out of her pocket and I
was so horrified by that that Iwent to a private WGA forum
that's only WGA members andposted the link to this story
and what happened was an entirebarrage of comments basically
(21:15):
saying this is incorrect.
She has got to have her storywrong.
This is illegal.
Studios would never do this.
Essentially, just comment aftercomment trying to change this
assistant's narrative andexperience to fit what they
believed was reality.
(21:35):
And it took another femalewriter, terry Kopp, who is
phenomenal and incredible and Icannot recommend everyone
finding her and befriending herenough.
She went to her assistant atthe time in the room and said I
read that this happened toanother assistant.
Has this ever happened to you?
And her assistant went yeah, itjust happened when I bought you
(21:58):
guys coffee.
I don't get reimbursed when Ibuy the room coffee.
It was something like that.
Terry came in and went.
I just asked my assistant aboutthis.
This is happening to her.
If Terry had not shared thatstory, no one would have
believed it.
It genuinely was something thatwas getting buried in people
who are higher up the food chaintrying to explain it away.
(22:19):
And that was the moment for methat I kind of went what the
hell have I done that hasperpetuated this so that this
minimization, this sweepingunder the rug, this excusing of
frankly illegal actions ishappening everywhere and people
refuse to see it?
And that for me, to answer yourquestion, that was kind of the
(22:41):
pin drop moment.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
And that for me to answer your question, that was
kind of the pin drop moment.
That's an infuriating situationand I mean it's so strange.
It's making me think I had anextremely similar thing happen
to me, but I was just fortunateenough to have a showrunner that
cared.
Yeah, the studio was asking formoney back on a purchase that I
made and, lucky enough, he justhanded me a $100 bill and he
said I hope this covers it.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
To that point said I hope, no, no, All of you are
wrong and you need to belistening to facts.
And the fact is this ishappening and we need to fix it
Because of that.
That was a little bit of adeprogramming shift that we saw
in writers.
That sort of ripple effect isthat you know that situation
that you described.
That was the ripple effect ofall of the writers and every
showrunner suddenly becomingaware of what this toxic
practice was.
Suddenly, they were shutting itdown whenever they had the
chance to so small things likethat.
(23:51):
Where it's this is somethingthat is happening and we need to
change it.
We can change it, but gettingit to be believed was the
hardest part, and I think rightnow we are at the point where
people believe it.
People just don't know what todo, and I understand that
because it's a little bit of ait's a puzzle right now.
(24:14):
Like this, we're going to seepeople becoming more and more
aware of the issues that arereally packaged in these
positions and they're going totry and do what they can to fix
it, but it's just it's going totake a long, long time.
(24:34):
You know this is verythoroughly rotted foundation
that we're talking about.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
And I think it's something that is going to get
worse before it gets better.
We are now so I am my last jobwas as an assistant.
I've been on two shows.
I have done the trifecta scriptcoordinator, writer that the
WGA and SAG have gotten thesecontracts and that's great.
(25:05):
We are incredibly excitedbecause obviously, especially if
you're support staff in awriter's room, the WGA is the
goal you want to become a writer, so that's why so many of us,
without being WGA members, cameout to the picket lines and
supported.
But the repercussions of thatfor support staff is we were
(25:25):
already being put in positionswhere we were getting these
double roles.
In my first show, I was boththe showrunner's assistant and
the script coordinator and I waspaid for one job, and that is
going to get worse and they'regoing to use the fact that they
have to pay writers more as thereason that it's getting worse
and while we have to cut backsomewhere.
And so I think that peoplereally need to be vigilant in
(25:49):
their rooms and make sure thattheir support staff and also
elsewhere, of course, but I canmostly speak to the room but
make sure that their supportstaff are not bearing the burden
of the fact that the WGA andSAG have made these huge strides
, because it is an excuse.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
That's right and thank you.
Thank you for bringing that upand I think you know our
listeners sort of are across allpositions, all departments.
I think it's something foreveryone to keep in mind in
every department, alldepartments.
I think it's something foreveryone to keep in mind in
every department.
You know, we talked a lotduring the strike about how,
what the trickle down effect, soto speak, was going to be, and
what you guys are putting yourfinger on is that, when in doubt
(26:31):
, the studios will make thelowest paid people, the most
vulnerable people, pay the priceand the overages in some way or
other.
What do you guys think, I meanfrom your position now, like and
and what pay up Hollywood hascome to be?
How do we, how do we workagainst?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
that it's interesting .
I think one thing that reallyneeds to happen is for the
workers of Hollywood to realizewe have a lot more in common
than we do, keeping us apart,One thing that we had learned a
few years ago, pre-pandemic,when Pay Up Hollywood had
(27:13):
approached Women in Film, whichis an incredible organization,
cannot recommend them highlyenough.
When we approached Women inFilm to give them the numbers
that we had found during ourfirst data gathering, basically
what we said was you know,assistants are living on less
than $60,000 a year, and at thattime, the cost of living in Los
(27:38):
Angeles was around $60,000 ayear.
Shocking, it is somehow raisedto $70,000 a year.
Just so we're clear.
That is the minimum cost ofliving in Los Angeles.
Yes, 70K.
When we told women in film, webelieve that assistants need to
be making 60K a year in order tostay afloat, and this is what a
(27:59):
living wage looked like.
What we were told is okay, someof us are coordinators, some of
us are managers and we don'tmake 60K a year.
Oh, wow.
So essentially, what we haveseen is what many, many years of
lowering the ceiling andlowering the floor looks like.
So if you have an executivethat costs a half a million a
(28:23):
year.
Get rid of that executive,promote a junior executive to 20
to a quarter of a million ayear.
Save yourself a quarter of amillion and let that person
think they have a ceiling tobuild up to and you're going to
have an employee that thinksthey're on should be a
profitable or well-paying track,and really what it is is
(28:46):
because they started at a lowerfloor than their predecessor.
They were never going to be ona track that made as much as
that person because they werealready put in a place to be a
cost-saving measure to thesestudios.
Megan, you brought it up.
The studios will always takeadvantage of the lowest paid
(29:08):
position until that position isessentially cannibalized to the
point that no longer needs toexist.
And then they go and they focuson who was on the second to
next lowest position.
So if you are a coordinatorright now, if you are a manager
and you think you're safebecause you're a little further
(29:29):
up the ladder, you're not,Because the studio's goals are
to eradicate the lowest levelpositions.
And then you become the lowestlevel and you become the one
that suddenly is taken advantageof.
The lowest level and you becomethe one that suddenly is taken
advantage of, whose floor islower to the point that your
ceiling is now just making thecost of living in Los Angeles,
(29:49):
and they really are using thedream economy to keep employees
from requesting higher raises,higher wages.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yeah, and you have a lot of insider knowledge because
of your position in leadershipand because you guys have been
running this organization for awhile, so you have been in the
trenches.
I'm wondering how could ourlisteners look into this for
themselves and see where doesthis show up as evidence that
this is what's actuallyhappening in the industry?
Speaker 4 (30:22):
So Liz mentioned the surveys that have been done, so
we do have those up on ourwebsite.
You can see the cold hard factsof exactly what's going on.
The latest survey that we haveright now is 2021.
We'll be looking into doing anew one, but those numbers kind
of hold true and have, wepresume, gotten even worse.
(30:44):
So that's where you can go tosee those cold hard facts.
And then also, if you are amember of a union as a support
staffer so if you are a memberof 871, there are forums that
you can go into that are justfor you and you can talk to
other people and you can seewhat is going on and how people
people go on there all the timeand they say this is what's
(31:06):
happening to me, how do I handlethis?
There are also I'm sure most ofyou know that there are
Facebook groups for assistanceand, again, that's a place where
you can go in.
You can post anonymously, saythis is what's happening to me,
what do I do?
And you can reach out to uswith an email and say this is
the situation that I'm in and wecan direct you to resources.
(31:26):
We've been able to directpeople to legal resources as
well as resources to help themfinancially or to help them in
their career.
There's not enough out there.
I will be totally honest, butwe are trying to push forward
everything that we possibly canand there are resources to be
(31:58):
had first rung.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
So we want to make sure that anyone who is doing
the work out there for example,during the strike, we met an
incredible organization calledGo For PAs, which is run by a
couple of ADs who have taken ona momentous task of trying to
help PAs, set PAs specificallyall over the country and
(32:20):
basically started their ownnonprofit.
They have been doing the Lord'swork in that capacity.
But we want to make sure thatthose organizations aren't going
underutilized and unsung,because they're doing incredible
work that deserves to be heardabout, that deserves to be
supported, While, additionally,we want to make sure that the
people who need those resourcesknow that they exist.
(32:43):
For us, we're just kind ofhoping to be a little bit of a
connector, a little bit of amatchmaker if you will.
As Alex said, we're going to betrying to venture back into data
this year.
Unfortunately, because of thepast couple of strikes, it's
been very hard to quantify thedata that is out there, because
it is depressing, and when youcome off of year four of guess
(33:07):
what wages were lower this yearthan they ever were for the
fourth straight year in a rowyou start to wonder what else
can be done, because at thatpoint you are just shouting the
news into a black hole, and sothings that we've been talking
about shouting the news into ablack hole, and so things that
we've been talking about smallchanges that people can do are
(33:29):
data sharing, data share on yourown.
That can be anything fromsharing what your deal looks
like.
If you were an assistant, youjust came from, for example,
sony, you were making $800 aweek.
Someone reaches out to you andsays can I ask you how much you
made?
Share with them.
That sort of thing is going toempower everybody in that area
of the workforce and you guyswill be able to rise the tide
(33:50):
and lift all ships.
That is something that, as awriter, I try and do, especially
any women, any other writers ofcolor who are asking can I see
your deal and make sure that I'mnot getting screwed?
I will happily send it to them,and that is something that some
of my friends and I haveactually made a point to do,
(34:10):
because we've realized that whenwe are all aware of how much
each other is making, we can allensure that we make the top
dollar, because we can point topreexisting examples and say
this is what you need to bedoing.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
And I want to double down on that, because sharing
information has such a negativeconnotation to it.
In our industry it's labeled asgossip.
You're not meant to be talkingabout that.
It's rude.
There are all of these wordsdressed over it to make you feel
as if you need to stay silentwhen we have the most power,
when we have the mostinformation.
(34:44):
And it's not illegal, no matterwhat they might make you think.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Do you know Amy Aniobe?
No, she's amazing, she'sphenomenal, she's a writer, and
she told me once, gossip is aword that men invented to keep
women from sharing informationand, incredibly, we got a
confession about this verysubject.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Somebody saw some pay stubs and found out that they
weren't being paid what theother people were being paid, oh
yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yeah, that is not the first story I've heard.
My mentor for the WGA told ushow she was the number two on a
very, very well-known ABC show,like pretty much in like the
Desperate Housewives, likeechelon sort of era, like Ugly
Betty, those sorts of like bigtime comedies with name
(35:32):
recognition, and she was thenumber two.
Found out won't say how thatshe was making the least amount
of money on staff.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Oh my God.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Least amount of money on staff.
She was furious.
I mean like I think I don'tremember the end of that story,
but she had also been on thisshow for several years.
It wasn't like this was herfirst year.
She was a senior member and soto be making the least amount on
the show for her was just.
(36:01):
You know, for her that was thenumber one reason.
She was like share, share yourinformation, share what is going
on.
You can fix this for yourfriends and your fellow writers.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
That's unbelievable, but very believable at the same
time.
So, uh, so, sharing information, that is a great tip.
Other, and the fact that youguys are becoming a hub for
information, I think, is super,super important.
This is another thing that Iheard or participated in a lot
of conversations about duringthe strike is how, how do we
(36:36):
create a community oflike-minded people who want the
as our tagline for this podcastis to make Hollywood a happier
place.
So how do we create thiscommunity?
And I think it's great that youguys are doing that.
For the record, what is yourwebsite address?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yes, it is wwwpayuphollywoodcom.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Awesome.
And also you mentioned, Alex,that people could send you guys
an email.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Yeah, and it's payuphollywood at gmailcom.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
We're keeping it simple as we can, we made it
really easy, you guys.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
Nice, I love it.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
And we're on.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
Instagram.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Which is also payuphollywood.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
What was Twitter and is now X.
I would ask everybody that isabove the first and second rung
to please, please, please,consider being mentors to people
that are coming up behind you.
Mentorship is incrediblyimportant.
Mentorship is the reason that Igot the two jobs that I have in
(37:33):
rooms, and we have a little bitof a broken chain of mentorship
in this industry, where most ofthe people that are super
successful are white men and, ofcourse, people want to mentor
those that they recognize a bitof themselves in.
So please diversify yourmentorship and please look for
(37:54):
people whose voices are notbeing heard and help them to
move forward and give themadvice and be a champion for
them.
To move forward and give themadvice and be a champion for
them.
I again, I have hadopportunities in my time in this
industry that I only gotbecause I had champions behind
me.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
If you are someone who is like me, who's like
people scare me.
Talking for long periods oftime scares me.
If you feel like mentorship issomething you would love to do
and people are something thatterrifies the ever-living
daylights out of you, there aredefinitely other ways to give
back as well, because I thinkthere are definitely podcasts.
(38:33):
There's Cole Haddon, who is awonderful writer, is doing a
bunch of series askingestablished writers different
questions that they would haveloved to have known the answer
to when they were support staff,and so something like that.
That where Cole is going, howdo I give back to this community
in a way that I know I canStuff, like that?
(38:54):
What is it that you can giveback?
You guys can't see.
I'm like motioning with my armsto give back.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
It's so dynamic.
You guys are really missing out.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
It's really underscoring my entire point
here.
It's something where, if youhave a skill or if there is
something that you can do togive back to empower people who
are on the first or second rungof their career ladder, do that.
If you are someone who canmentor, please do that.
Alex is absolutely right.
There's an entire generation ofsupport staff who could use
(39:28):
mentors, and whether that's in awriter's room, on set, in a
casting office, in hair andmakeup, whatever it is, those
mentors need to be there.
But I also think one thing forpeople to keep in mind is that
there are support staffers inevery single department in
Hollywood, not just the writer'sroom, not just on the
(39:49):
director's path, on the DP path.
There are people who are juststarting out who could use your
help.
So who is it in your world thatis just starting out that you
know you could help directly?
Speaker 4 (40:01):
You can also donate money.
Donate money, yes, actually, ifit's not for you.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
We should have said that you should absolutely give
money.
No, that is something I mean.
Like Alex did point out, we area nonprofit and therefore we
are donation-based.
If you would like to help uscontinue the work that we are
doing, you can make a totaltax-deductible donation, which
is great, on our website.
(40:27):
That is going to help usbasically expand.
Make sure that we can keepadvocating for assistance like
we do.
There are other places that youshould absolutely be donating.
Alex is looking at me likeshe's so ready.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Entertainment Community Fund Go for PAs is
also still an amazing place toput your money at WIF because
they are championing women,identifying creators and, as we
know, a lot of people are a lotof women and women identifying
people are trying to come up andthey are facing a lot of
resistance.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
We can't recommend those organizations more to
anybody who is looking for aplace to start, and we really
hope that in the future,whenever we do podcasts like
this, we'll actually be showingup within higher laundry list of
organizations that could behelpful, and if there are any
that we missed, chew us out.
Send us an email tell us wedidn't mention you.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
We apologize.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
We'll put you on our website we like.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
we really want to make sure that people who may
not have gotten theopportunities that Alex and I
had when we came out here,especially in what is becoming a
more and more digital industry,are.
We want to make sure that thosepeople aren't forgotten about,
and so anything that we aren'taware of we want to know about.
(41:52):
So it's not just what we can dofor you, what can you do for us
as well.
Listeners just saying.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
And if you're still wondering, if you're like none
of those options work for me,email us and we'll find a way.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Yes, I've got one last question for y'all.
I think this podcast wasdefinitely born out of a deep
love of storytelling, of makingmovies, of making TV, and we
want to make this industry abetter place because we want to
live in it and because it's whatwe love to do, and I have a
feeling it's similar for y'all.
So, what about the industry?
(42:24):
Makes you excited or hopeful?
Speaker 4 (42:29):
makes you excited or hopeful.
The thing that makes me hopefulare the people that I have
found in this industry.
I was in theater before I cameout here which, by the way, is
all the stuff that we talkedabout but you don't get paid and
I had so much community thereand when I came out here I was
terrified that I would not findthat again.
And I have had the opportunityto meet people that I truly feel
are working to make this abetter place in whatever way
(42:50):
that they can.
I have had two incredibleshowrunners, dara Resnick and
Cheryl J Anderson, who have beenadvocates for me and mentors to
me, and I have been privilegedto meet the other people in
their orbit, and all of thesepeople are really significantly
trying to make the industry abetter place for everyone in it,
(43:12):
and it does start with just afew people that want that, and I
know that it feels so.
David and Goliath, I know thatyou look up at the WB water
tower and go like how could Ipossibly go up against this?
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Why is Ryan Gosling still up there?
Speaker 4 (43:33):
But the fact of the matter is that this isn't a
sense of revolution, and everysingle revolution starts with
just a few people saying I'mtired of this.
I was so good.
Thank you.
I'm a writer.
I don't know who you are.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Oh my God, you should be a writer, if you weren't on,
I think for me it's seeing thedifference of when I to continue
that cycle anymore, who arewaking up and acknowledging that
(44:16):
, yes, what we have been part ofis a cycle of abuse.
We have perpetuated as well astaken the abuse.
We're both victims andperpetrators, and I think what
we're going to be seeing in thenext 20 years is going to be a
(44:40):
significant change from how itwas when we first started out.
I'm very hopeful that when I'min my 50s, I'll be reading about
Hollywood and, even if theissues are still there, there
will be people who are speakingout about them, as opposed to
whispering about the issuesbehind closed doors and being
(45:03):
scared that, if they even speakto the toxicity of the industry,
that they'll be blacklisted.
And I'm not saying that thereisn't still retribution, that
people are still not scared tospeak out.
That is still absolutelyhappening.
But it says something that wecan loudly proclaim this
(45:23):
industry as having toxic rootsand toxic foundations and not
have to worry that any of uswill be blacklisted.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Amen.
Thank you both, so so much forthis.
This has been great to have youon the podcast, liz, and Alex,
and for everything you've beendoing.
Speaking to your point aboutnot having to whisper about
things in darkness, we weretalking with Alex before you got
here about one of the thingsthat we want to do is, while we
are, you know, being anonymousabout victims and abuses and
(45:52):
perpetrators and all thosethings, to be able to name names
of the good guys, right, and soyou guys have named several
names in this, in this interview, and we really appreciate that.
Just want to give you a chanceto say if there's anybody else
or any other organization thatpops into your head that should
be on the list of people who aremaking Hollywood a happier
(46:14):
place.
Who would that be?
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Joelle Garfinkel.
Oh hell, yes, oh, my God, Ilove that woman so much.
I think Joelle is phenomenal.
And Joelle is someone whosegenerosity just found the right
outlet this time.
She's always been thiswonderful.
She's always been this generous.
The fact that she started GreenEnvelopes if you know her like,
you're not surprised whatsoever.
Speaker 4 (46:37):
I want to mention Megan and Claire from the
Blacklist.
They are.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
I got tongue-tied thinking about it, because
they're so great, we're so inawe of them.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
They're such incredible women and they are,
uh franklin's right hands andthey are very boots on the
ground and they are the onesthat, when they have these
blacklist uh labs, they are theones with the writers propping
them up, keeping them going, andthey stay in touch.
I'm having breakfast with themthis week, yeah the other.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
One other organization I want to shout out
is TIE Think Tank for InclusionEquity.
They are our siblings under theWomen in Film banner and they
are an organization that hasbeen doing the hard work on
behalf of women and writers ofcolor.
Specifically, they are led bywomen identifying and writers of
(47:30):
color and they are honestly.
They've done so much data onwhat the issues that a lot of
writers from underserved groupsare facing and they've been.
They've put out fact sheets,they've made sure that they've
had panels.
They've done so much to try andstrengthen the community.
Like just giving them a shoutout because they are also doing
(47:52):
the very, very difficult work.
Speaker 4 (47:55):
We should shout out our team.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
Yep Quincy Cho, who I came on during the strike and
has very much become like ourright hand.
She's incredible, yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
All of our volunteers for Pay Up Hollywood and,
honestly, I really got to give acouple of shout outs to some of
the very big donors that we had.
Like you know, alexi HawleyCheryl was a huge donor to us
David Shore, who was a massivedonor during the pandemic.
A lot of writers who really dugdeep into their pockets to try
(48:29):
and make sure that support staff.
Mike Royce is one that I reallyhave to shout out.
We love Mike Royce and TanyaSiracho, who is also someone who
has been very focused on makingsure that support staff is
trained and treated respectfully.
Speaker 4 (48:46):
Dara Resnick who did an entire fundraiser for her
birthday and raised over $7,000for us.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Oh, wow, yeah.
So a lot of these folks who doit because it's the right thing
to do and who don't go out andbrag about this because they
don't want the praise.
They just want to make surethat the next generation of
Hollywood execs and directorsand writers are as diverse and
(49:12):
as great storytellers as we wantthem to be.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Just again.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show, for sharing
everything you guys have beenworking towards, everything
you've done for the industry,for support staff specifically,
and for naming the names of thegood guys.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
That's incredible.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
We love the good guys .
They're around.
So just again, your website ispayuphollywoodcom, correct.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
Instagram it is payuphollywood, because someone
tried to scam us into purchasingthe Pay Up Hollywood handle.
On Twitter, it is just atpayuphollywood, and those are
the best ways to keep in touchwith us and what PayUpHollywood
is doing.
If you want to get involved,send us an email at
PayUpHollywood, at gmailcom.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Fantastic.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Thank you Thank you guys Go create in peace
everybody.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
The Hollywood Confessional is produced by
Megan Dane and Jair Zamora-Thal.
Joelle Garfinkel is ourco-producer and AJ Thal is our
post-production coordinator andeditor.
Hollywood Confessional is aNinth Way Media production.
Follow us on socials atFessUpHollywood of Hollywood.
In nomine Cinema e TV , espiritu Streaming Amen.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, it's been a minute since we've done one of
these live interviews, so Ishould have like thought about
what I was going to say beforelet's dive in.
Welcome back to the HollywoodConfessional.
We have Liz Shaulon, alper andAlex Rubin today from Pay Up
Hollywood.
We are so super excited to haveyou guys on the podcast.
This is one of our new sort offormats that we landed on last
(00:40):
year during the strike, which isa instead of a forgive me
father podcast, this is a blessme father podcast, for I have
made Hollywood a happier place,so that's what you guys are here
for.
Welcome, and thank you so muchfor joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I'm sorry I'm laughing so hard.
I just keep thinking like blessme, daddy.
I don't know, it's not thatkind of podcast.
Like a hot priest, is justforever imprinted itself in my
brain Like no matter what.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I just keep thinking my Irish Catholic grandmother
would be so happy, right now, jrand I started this podcast this
is our third season, so liketwo and a half years ago now for
support staffers, basicallybecause it was like we have been
support staffers, we know thatthere's like so many stories of
horrible and funny and crazythings that happened to you that
(01:32):
you can't talk about, right?
And so we were like, yeah, it'dbe really nice if there was a
way to like confess these ideasin private.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
And then JR, with his Catholic background you can
take the boy out of the church,but you can't take the church
out of the boy.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, so it's a little tongue-in-cheek, but we
enjoy it and, again, thank youguys for being here.
So we're here to talk about PayUp Hollywood.
That's what we're blessing youfor.
Thank you for doing this thing.
And for people who are notfamiliar with the organization,
could you guys kind of give usan overview of what it is and
like who you were and how thisthing came about?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Yeah, so Pay Up Hollywood started off as a
grassroots movement among thesupport staff in Hollywood a few
years ago.
Basically, there were a lot ofsupport staffers who had been
listening to a wonderful podcasthosted by John August and Craig
Mazin called Script Notes.
Ultimately, what happened wasJohn August had reached out to
(02:30):
me me being Liz Alper askingabout assistant stories in
Hollywood, and this has been anissue I've been extremely
passionate about since comingout to Hollywood pretty much, I
want to say, 15 years ago now,so 2008, during the last strike.
And what it does is it's agrassroots movement that focuses
on eradicating the financialbarriers as well as shines a
(02:53):
light on workplace abuses anddifferent sorts of financial,
emotional, mental abuses thatassistants and support staff
tend to go through, andessentially, it's trying to make
sure that this next generationof Hollywood isn't limited to
the people who can afford to payto play and who also have the
(03:15):
sort of toxic background thathas perpetuated toxicity in
Hollywood.
The people who tend to thrivein toxic environments are the
ones who take enjoyment, theones who really want to make
sure that there are other peopleto throw under the bus, to make
sure that they can always keepthemselves in the background,
(03:38):
but also in charge.
That's, frankly, the sort ofindustry that we inherited and
that's the industry that we'retrying to change.
The sort of industry that weinherited and that's the
industry that we're trying tochange.
And that sort of change needsto be happening at every single
level.
But it starts with thefoundation, and when the
foundation is as rotted asHollywood's is, when it
basically sustains itself onunderpaying employees,
(03:59):
especially at the first rung oftheir career, and ensuring that
that sort of financial abuse islumped into this sort of paying
your dues attitude that we'vecome to install in every single
person that has come intoHollywood.
You have to pay your dues, youhave to pay your dues, and
paying your dues means takingwhatever emotional, financial,
(04:23):
mental, physical abuse in theworkplace that your employees
want to hurl at you.
Ultimately, it's a way to ripout the old foundation of
Hollywood and make sure that thenew foundation ensures both a
sustainable career for anyonejust starting out, but also a
(04:43):
safe and prospering workplacefor anyone who is not looking to
promote a toxic environment.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
I'll just say that I was not with Liz at the start of
this.
I came in at the beginning ofthis past strike and I came in
because of rage.
I was so angry that we wereclearly barreling towards a WGA
and potentially DGA andpotentially SAG strike and it
(05:12):
meant that any assistant thatwas connected to these other
professions that were going togo on strike could not work, but
at the same time there was nosafety net for them, and I
yelled about it a lot to myshowrunner.
At the same time, there was nosafety net for them and I yelled
about it a lot to my showrunnerat the time and she said you
(05:34):
should meet Liz Alpert.
Cheryl is amazing.
Yeah, cheryl is amazing.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
This is like clearly a match made in heaven.
Cheryl has listened to me rantabout, you know, the different
sort of socioeconomic barriersthat Hollywood has enacted and
basically rebranded itself aswe're a meritocracy, without
taking into account that a lotof people can't afford to take
on even assistant jobs.
(05:57):
There are assistants right nowwho are working second jobs in
order to afford that first job,which is as a Hollywood
assistant, a set PA, a castingPA, anyone in any department.
We keep using the term supportstaff and we've been looking for
a better, all-encompassing termto basically designate who it
(06:19):
is that we fight for.
It's for those people who areat the first or second rung on
their career ladder, whetherthat's a set PA, whether that's
someone in the mailroom, whetherthat's somebody who works for a
consulting company that isbased in entertainment and
they're the receptionist.
They should still be making aliving wage.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Well, I remember when I was an intern I was not
getting paid at all and I had towork construction in the
mornings from 6 am to about 2 pm.
I'd run to the internship at 3pm and work until 6 or 7, just
to get my hours in to learn.
Yeah, it was a pretty crazyschedule.
Yeah, but you know, I did itbecause it was worth it to me,
and the sad reality is that Iwas happy to do it Exactly.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
And that's, I think, one of the major issues that
people on the first couple ofrungs of the ladder face, where
they know that I should begrateful I got this job and
there are 10 other people whowant this job.
One of my actually my veryfirst scripted position was the
writer's assistant on House,which, if you are a millennial I
(07:23):
have now talked to Gen Z kidswho are like that was my dad's
favorite show growing up and ithurts it hurts so much.
It hurts, it's so painful, buton that show for me getting that
position, I received a payraise.
I suddenly could make my rentfor the first time pretty much
(07:47):
ever in my assistant life.
But let me remind you, this is2011.
And my salary at that point was$750 a week.
That is the same salary thatmany writer's assistants are
making to pull in the dualposition of script coordinator
(08:08):
and writer's assistant, and thatis their 750 is their weekly
take home pay especially well,specifically if you are on a
show where that is insisted onbeing a non-IOTC show meaning
that the writer's assistants andthe script coordinators do not
make union rates.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
show meaning that the writer's assistants and the
script coordinators do not makeunion rates.
There are non-IATSE shows.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I was under the impression that every single
show was an IATSE show.
At this point, every singleshow, I believe, is an IATSE
show in terms of production, butwhen it comes to the writing
room positions, not every showis an IATSE show.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Wow, is that based on the studio?
Speaker 3 (08:43):
That's based on the studio.
I believe it's an enforcementissue as well.
For those of you who don't know, I was also a member of the WGA
board for a while-IATSE.
Writing rooms have been tryingto fix, but ultimately it's
(09:08):
something that is being workedon, but not every writer's room
is covered by IATSE and so notevery writer's assistant and
script coordinating position iscovered by IATSE, which, as you
guys know, means you don't getthose contributions.
You can speak to what you loseout better than I can.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, that's the difference between healthcare
and another off the top of myhead, like $500 a week in
take-home pay.
Yeah, that's nuts, it's insane.
Do you know who like the mainoffenders are?
I would one.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I strongly urge you guys to reach out to IATSE and
especially to your reps.
Is it 871?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
that covers.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah, so I would reach out to your union reps at
871, but also reach out to yourboard members.
I know there are several writer, assistant script coordinator,
board members who have beentrying to fix this issue and,
quite frankly, it's one thateverybody should know about.
The more that people are awarethat this is happening, the more
(10:11):
power you have behind you,because the more people you have
saying absolutely not, we arenot going to let this happen.
This needs to be fixed.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, that's honestly shocking.
I'm completely shocked rightnow.
I did not know that this wasgoing on.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Oh, there are many.
I think I just worked on mysecond show.
That was not covered.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
So to take it back a little bit, alex, you mentioned
a little bit about where youwere coming from when you joined
, but, liz, could you talk alittle bit about where you were
at in your life Right after?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I won my first election to be on the WGA board.
Hashtag pay a Hollywood cameinto being and for me, I had
just come off of a very publicelection where I had gathered a
lot of goodwill and was veryaware that I had gathered a lot
of goodwill and goodwill expires.
The fact was I had gottenelected because prior to the
(11:04):
election, I had been focusing ondifferent election.
We were pro-action, and so thatbecame kind of a lightning rod
(11:30):
of polarizing opinions.
It was a really, really hardtime to be in leadership for the
WGA because we had a verydivided membership and we had
actually just gone through thatelection losing a lot of friends
.
Like I had friends who did notspeak to me.
Oh wow, I did not want to speakto them either.
(11:51):
Ultimately, I knew that thiswas goodwill that was going to
go away.
And so if there was one thing Iwas going to be able to do, now
was the time when John came tome asking about this assistant
thing.
The one thing I kind ofrealized I could do was offer a
bit of a shield for anyone whowants to share their stories,
and so what I did was tellassistants if you want to share
(12:13):
your story, throw me under thebus, do whatever you need to do,
Say that Liz Alper was the onethat made me share this and just
use this hashtag, because thisis going to be the only way that
someone reading one story canfind all of the stories that are
being shared, and that'sexactly what happened.
Twitter became overrun withdifferent stories about
(12:35):
financial abuse anywhere fromassistants having to pay lunch
overages for writer's room outof their pockets Yep, lunch
overages for writer's room outof their pockets to set PAs who
had been forced to work, youknow, many, many, many hours of
overtime and then had theirovertime struck by line
(12:56):
producers because, quote unquote, it wasn't approved.
And so, all over the place, wewere getting all these awful
stories about what it wasactually like being at the
bottom rung in Hollywood and howunsustainable it was becoming,
and it became very, very clearthat if we were going to
continue the way that we werepaying assistance less and less
and less each year, we weregoing to lose out on the truly
(13:19):
creative voices that could makethe next generation of Hollywood
leaders, simply because theyeither couldn't afford to pay to
stay in the industry or theycouldn't pay the emotional,
mental, physical well-being tax.
They didn't want to be in anindustry that meant they were
(13:42):
constantly bullied and made tofeel small and just abused every
day.
There is no job in the worldthat is worth that, and the only
people who think that there areare the ones who enjoy being
the kind of, you know, dolingout the kind of abuse that we
see every day in Hollywood.
So ultimately, for me it itbecame a thing knowing that if
(14:06):
I'm going to do one more thingwith with this attention that I
have, let it be this, and sothat's where it kind of took off
, started gaining momentum.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
That's incredible, are you?
Um?
Were you surprised by how ittook off?
Was what were you expectingwhen you started?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I was not expecting where we are today, that's for
damn sure.
I think what I didn't expectwas how many people didn't know
what was happening or how manypeople you saw waking up.
I very much am someone who hadbought the if you are tough
(14:51):
enough to be here, you'd be here.
I bought that hook line andsinker.
I cannot tell you, especiallyas an assistant, how many drinks
I went to.
Where we were just sharingbattle stories, where the person
who went through the mostabusive situation won and that
was supposed to be.
You know, that's a badge ofhonor, you know you won the war
(15:14):
stories.
As opposed to saying, my God, wewould make any therapist
fucking cry right now withtrying to one up each other on
how much abuse we can stomachand how much we can take.
And especially, I think there'sthe cyclical nature of abuse.
I was definitely someone thatwould really expect other
(15:34):
assistants to be able totolerate the sort of abuse that
I had been put through, and ifthey couldn't, to me that was oh
well, you can't make it, theyweren't tough enough, they
weren't cut out for thisindustry.
As opposed to me saying like,maybe the ability to take on a
whole lot of abuse isn't a goodthing.
Maybe that's really really bad.
(15:55):
Maybe that should be the redflag that this entire boat is
taking on water and it's goingto sink if we don't fix it now.
And so you could see, with allof the stories being shared, the
way that people's minds werestarting to shift and starting
to realize that we haveglorified the abusive nature of
(16:16):
the assistant and the supportstaff position, and we should
never have been glorifying it inthe first place.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, you are absolutely speaking our language
right now.
It's so funny because we'vejust recently done a confession.
While you were talking aboutlike, oh, the person with the
most abusive story wins, like inmy head I was like, yeah, they
win season three premiere of theHollywood confessional Right.
(16:42):
But yeah, talking about howabusers thrive and how this has
become an industry, just likeyou said, that thrives on that
very abuse, because it iscyclical and it is perpetuated
by people who have been abusedand I.
It's so fascinating to me totalk to you guys now in person,
(17:02):
because I was just, let's see,was I an assistant, I think by
the time you guys started?
Well, by the time you startedlisten, it started taking off.
I had just maybe gotten staffedfor the first time, but I had a
lot of that residual trauma andso I was kind of like, yeah,
well, they can't take it, fuckthem.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
And all of that stuff .
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And then, similarly, it took me seeing these stories
over and over again and thenfinally being like, oh, this,
this actually is bad.
This is something that's wrongwith me now that I have like
ingested this poison.
So thank you for um, foreverything that you guys have
done in the interim and forpersisting with it and for
(17:44):
seeing it yourself and um.
And then I'm interested, likeat the point at which you
started to realize this wasgoing on, um, in you and in the
community, like how did thataffect your approach?
And then what did you decide todo next?
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Um well, I'll, I'll let Alex speak to her experience
as well, but I went to therapy.
I took on a lot of therapy.
I went to a lot of therapybecause I kind of realized and I
recognized that there were twopaths in front of me I could
continue to.
Already is a cycle of abuse,and so it was easier for me to
(18:27):
recognize that I had fallen intothat pattern because it was a
pattern I was already well awareof.
So for me, weirdly enough, youknow, having an abusive
childhood was a blessing in thisscenario.
But it really came down tounderstanding that I am wrong,
like I am the wronged person inthis scenario.
But it really came down tounderstanding that I am wrong.
I am the wronged person in thisparty.
(18:49):
I am doing harm by continuingthe patterns that assistants
before me had perpetuated.
If I want to be the person thatI like to think I am, that
means actually doing the work tobecome that person, and so it
was a lot of therapy.
It was a lot of really examiningmy own biases, having to be
(19:14):
very brutally honest with myselfand also realizing that when we
were getting stories frompeople being as sensitive as
humanly possible, under nocircumstances was there ever
going to be a time where someonewould come to pay up Hollywood,
share a story and be told.
Well, I think maybe you're notlooking at it in the correct way
(19:34):
, maybe you might be wrong.
No matter what, this is someonewho has suffered a trauma that
has impacted their life and hasharmed them in a significant way
.
They deserve grace.
They did not deserve me sittingthere judging them, and so it
became the number one priorityof mine is making sure that this
was like a no judgment zone, ano shame zone, like under no
(19:59):
circumstances was anyone to beshamed for anything that they
felt, because we all knew whatit was like to be abused and be
traumatized and not be believed.
So for me, that was.
It was just a lot of work,undoing the brainwashing that we
had essentially gone through.
It was deprogramming.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Was there any one event that made you think, oh,
it's time for me to go totherapy?
Or was it just the buildup ofhearing all these stories and
sort of understanding howwriters were perpetuating it in
those days?
Speaker 3 (20:30):
I think it really was .
I was going to therapy forsomething else already and when
I started getting more and morestories, I'm trying to remember
that there was one story inparticular and it was because it
resonated so strongly with me.
It was a young woman who sharedthat accounting had forced her
(20:52):
to pay the lunch overages forher room out of her pocket and I
was so horrified by that that Iwent to a private WGA forum
that's only WGA members andposted the link to this story
and what happened was an entirebarrage of comments basically
(21:15):
saying this is incorrect.
She has got to have her storywrong.
This is illegal.
Studios would never do this.
Essentially, just comment aftercomment trying to change this
assistant's narrative andexperience to fit what they
believed was reality.
(21:35):
And it took another femalewriter, terry Kopp, who is
phenomenal and incredible and Icannot recommend everyone
finding her and befriending herenough.
She went to her assistant atthe time in the room and said I
read that this happened toanother assistant.
Has this ever happened to you?
And her assistant went yeah, itjust happened when I bought you
(21:58):
guys coffee.
I don't get reimbursed when Ibuy the room coffee.
It was something like that.
Terry came in and went.
I just asked my assistant aboutthis.
This is happening to her.
If Terry had not shared thatstory, no one would have
believed it.
It genuinely was something thatwas getting buried in people
who are higher up the food chaintrying to explain it away.
(22:19):
And that was the moment for methat I kind of went what the
hell have I done that hasperpetuated this so that this
minimization, this sweepingunder the rug, this excusing of
frankly illegal actions ishappening everywhere and people
refuse to see it?
And that for me, to answer yourquestion, that was kind of the
(22:41):
pin drop moment.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
And that for me to answer your question, that was
kind of the pin drop moment.
That's an infuriating situationand I mean it's so strange.
It's making me think I had anextremely similar thing happen
to me, but I was just fortunateenough to have a showrunner that
cared.
Yeah, the studio was asking formoney back on a purchase that I
made and, lucky enough, he justhanded me a $100 bill and he
said I hope this covers it.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
To that point said I hope, no, no, All of you are
wrong and you need to belistening to facts.
And the fact is this ishappening and we need to fix it
Because of that.
That was a little bit of adeprogramming shift that we saw
in writers.
That sort of ripple effect isthat you know that situation
that you described.
That was the ripple effect ofall of the writers and every
showrunner suddenly becomingaware of what this toxic
practice was.
Suddenly, they were shutting itdown whenever they had the
chance to so small things likethat.
(23:51):
Where it's this is somethingthat is happening and we need to
change it.
We can change it, but gettingit to be believed was the
hardest part, and I think rightnow we are at the point where
people believe it.
People just don't know what todo, and I understand that
because it's a little bit of ait's a puzzle right now.
(24:14):
Like this, we're going to seepeople becoming more and more
aware of the issues that arereally packaged in these
positions and they're going totry and do what they can to fix
it, but it's just it's going totake a long, long time.
(24:34):
You know this is verythoroughly rotted foundation
that we're talking about.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
And I think it's something that is going to get
worse before it gets better.
We are now so I am my last jobwas as an assistant.
I've been on two shows.
I have done the trifecta scriptcoordinator, writer that the
WGA and SAG have gotten thesecontracts and that's great.
(25:05):
We are incredibly excitedbecause obviously, especially if
you're support staff in awriter's room, the WGA is the
goal you want to become a writer, so that's why so many of us,
without being WGA members, cameout to the picket lines and
supported.
But the repercussions of thatfor support staff is we were
(25:25):
already being put in positionswhere we were getting these
double roles.
In my first show, I was boththe showrunner's assistant and
the script coordinator and I waspaid for one job, and that is
going to get worse and they'regoing to use the fact that they
have to pay writers more as thereason that it's getting worse
and while we have to cut backsomewhere.
And so I think that peoplereally need to be vigilant in
(25:49):
their rooms and make sure thattheir support staff and also
elsewhere, of course, but I canmostly speak to the room but
make sure that their supportstaff are not bearing the burden
of the fact that the WGA andSAG have made these huge strides
, because it is an excuse.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
That's right and thank you.
Thank you for bringing that upand I think you know our
listeners sort of are across allpositions, all departments.
I think it's something foreveryone to keep in mind in
every department, alldepartments.
I think it's something foreveryone to keep in mind in
every department.
You know, we talked a lotduring the strike about how,
what the trickle down effect, soto speak, was going to be, and
what you guys are putting yourfinger on is that, when in doubt
(26:31):
, the studios will make thelowest paid people, the most
vulnerable people, pay the priceand the overages in some way or
other.
What do you guys think, I meanfrom your position now, like and
and what pay up Hollywood hascome to be?
How do we, how do we workagainst?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
that it's interesting .
I think one thing that reallyneeds to happen is for the
workers of Hollywood to realizewe have a lot more in common
than we do, keeping us apart,One thing that we had learned a
few years ago, pre-pandemic,when Pay Up Hollywood had
(27:13):
approached Women in Film, whichis an incredible organization,
cannot recommend them highlyenough.
When we approached Women inFilm to give them the numbers
that we had found during ourfirst data gathering, basically
what we said was you know,assistants are living on less
than $60,000 a year, and at thattime, the cost of living in Los
(27:38):
Angeles was around $60,000 ayear.
Shocking, it is somehow raisedto $70,000 a year.
Just so we're clear.
That is the minimum cost ofliving in Los Angeles.
Yes, 70K.
When we told women in film, webelieve that assistants need to
be making 60K a year in order tostay afloat, and this is what a
(27:59):
living wage looked like.
What we were told is okay, someof us are coordinators, some of
us are managers and we don'tmake 60K a year.
Oh, wow.
So essentially, what we haveseen is what many, many years of
lowering the ceiling andlowering the floor looks like.
So if you have an executivethat costs a half a million a
(28:23):
year.
Get rid of that executive,promote a junior executive to 20
to a quarter of a million ayear.
Save yourself a quarter of amillion and let that person
think they have a ceiling tobuild up to and you're going to
have an employee that thinksthey're on should be a
profitable or well-paying track,and really what it is is
(28:46):
because they started at a lowerfloor than their predecessor.
They were never going to be ona track that made as much as
that person because they werealready put in a place to be a
cost-saving measure to thesestudios.
Megan, you brought it up.
The studios will always takeadvantage of the lowest paid
(29:08):
position until that position isessentially cannibalized to the
point that no longer needs toexist.
And then they go and they focuson who was on the second to
next lowest position.
So if you are a coordinatorright now, if you are a manager
and you think you're safebecause you're a little further
(29:29):
up the ladder, you're not,Because the studio's goals are
to eradicate the lowest levelpositions.
And then you become the lowestlevel and you become the one
that suddenly is taken advantageof.
The lowest level and you becomethe one that suddenly is taken
advantage of, whose floor islower to the point that your
ceiling is now just making thecost of living in Los Angeles,
(29:49):
and they really are using thedream economy to keep employees
from requesting higher raises,higher wages.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yeah, and you have a lot of insider knowledge because
of your position in leadershipand because you guys have been
running this organization for awhile, so you have been in the
trenches.
I'm wondering how could ourlisteners look into this for
themselves and see where doesthis show up as evidence that
this is what's actuallyhappening in the industry?
Speaker 4 (30:22):
So Liz mentioned the surveys that have been done, so
we do have those up on ourwebsite.
You can see the cold hard factsof exactly what's going on.
The latest survey that we haveright now is 2021.
We'll be looking into doing anew one, but those numbers kind
of hold true and have, wepresume, gotten even worse.
(30:44):
So that's where you can go tosee those cold hard facts.
And then also, if you are amember of a union as a support
staffer so if you are a memberof 871, there are forums that
you can go into that are justfor you and you can talk to
other people and you can seewhat is going on and how people
people go on there all the timeand they say this is what's
(31:06):
happening to me, how do I handlethis?
There are also I'm sure most ofyou know that there are
Facebook groups for assistanceand, again, that's a place where
you can go in.
You can post anonymously, saythis is what's happening to me,
what do I do?
And you can reach out to uswith an email and say this is
the situation that I'm in and wecan direct you to resources.
(31:26):
We've been able to directpeople to legal resources as
well as resources to help themfinancially or to help them in
their career.
There's not enough out there.
I will be totally honest, butwe are trying to push forward
everything that we possibly canand there are resources to be
(31:58):
had first rung.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
So we want to make sure that anyone who is doing
the work out there for example,during the strike, we met an
incredible organization calledGo For PAs, which is run by a
couple of ADs who have taken ona momentous task of trying to
help PAs, set PAs specificallyall over the country and
(32:20):
basically started their ownnonprofit.
They have been doing the Lord'swork in that capacity.
But we want to make sure thatthose organizations aren't going
underutilized and unsung,because they're doing incredible
work that deserves to be heardabout, that deserves to be
supported, While, additionally,we want to make sure that the
people who need those resourcesknow that they exist.
(32:43):
For us, we're just kind ofhoping to be a little bit of a
connector, a little bit of amatchmaker if you will.
As Alex said, we're going to betrying to venture back into data
this year.
Unfortunately, because of thepast couple of strikes, it's
been very hard to quantify thedata that is out there, because
it is depressing, and when youcome off of year four of guess
(33:07):
what wages were lower this yearthan they ever were for the
fourth straight year in a rowyou start to wonder what else
can be done, because at thatpoint you are just shouting the
news into a black hole, and sothings that we've been talking
about shouting the news into ablack hole, and so things that
we've been talking about smallchanges that people can do are
(33:29):
data sharing, data share on yourown.
That can be anything fromsharing what your deal looks
like.
If you were an assistant, youjust came from, for example,
sony, you were making $800 aweek.
Someone reaches out to you andsays can I ask you how much you
made?
Share with them.
That sort of thing is going toempower everybody in that area
of the workforce and you guyswill be able to rise the tide
(33:50):
and lift all ships.
That is something that, as awriter, I try and do, especially
any women, any other writers ofcolor who are asking can I see
your deal and make sure that I'mnot getting screwed?
I will happily send it to them,and that is something that some
of my friends and I haveactually made a point to do,
(34:10):
because we've realized that whenwe are all aware of how much
each other is making, we can allensure that we make the top
dollar, because we can point topreexisting examples and say
this is what you need to bedoing.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
And I want to double down on that, because sharing
information has such a negativeconnotation to it.
In our industry it's labeled asgossip.
You're not meant to be talkingabout that.
It's rude.
There are all of these wordsdressed over it to make you feel
as if you need to stay silentwhen we have the most power,
when we have the mostinformation.
(34:44):
And it's not illegal, no matterwhat they might make you think.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Do you know Amy Aniobe?
No, she's amazing, she'sphenomenal, she's a writer, and
she told me once, gossip is aword that men invented to keep
women from sharing informationand, incredibly, we got a
confession about this verysubject.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Somebody saw some pay stubs and found out that they
weren't being paid what theother people were being paid, oh
yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yeah, that is not the first story I've heard.
My mentor for the WGA told ushow she was the number two on a
very, very well-known ABC show,like pretty much in like the
Desperate Housewives, likeechelon sort of era, like Ugly
Betty, those sorts of like bigtime comedies with name
(35:32):
recognition, and she was thenumber two.
Found out won't say how thatshe was making the least amount
of money on staff.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Oh my God.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Least amount of money on staff.
She was furious.
I mean like I think I don'tremember the end of that story,
but she had also been on thisshow for several years.
It wasn't like this was herfirst year.
She was a senior member and soto be making the least amount on
the show for her was just.
(36:01):
You know, for her that was thenumber one reason.
She was like share, share yourinformation, share what is going
on.
You can fix this for yourfriends and your fellow writers.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
That's unbelievable, but very believable at the same
time.
So, uh, so, sharing information, that is a great tip.
Other, and the fact that youguys are becoming a hub for
information, I think, is super,super important.
This is another thing that Iheard or participated in a lot
of conversations about duringthe strike is how, how do we
(36:36):
create a community oflike-minded people who want the
as our tagline for this podcastis to make Hollywood a happier
place.
So how do we create thiscommunity?
And I think it's great that youguys are doing that.
For the record, what is yourwebsite address?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yes, it is wwwpayuphollywoodcom.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Awesome.
And also you mentioned, Alex,that people could send you guys
an email.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Yeah, and it's payuphollywood at gmailcom.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
We're keeping it simple as we can, we made it
really easy, you guys.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
Nice, I love it.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
And we're on.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
Instagram.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Which is also payuphollywood.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
What was Twitter and is now X.
I would ask everybody that isabove the first and second rung
to please, please, please,consider being mentors to people
that are coming up behind you.
Mentorship is incrediblyimportant.
Mentorship is the reason that Igot the two jobs that I have in
(37:33):
rooms, and we have a little bitof a broken chain of mentorship
in this industry, where most ofthe people that are super
successful are white men and, ofcourse, people want to mentor
those that they recognize a bitof themselves in.
So please diversify yourmentorship and please look for
(37:54):
people whose voices are notbeing heard and help them to
move forward and give themadvice and be a champion for
them.
To move forward and give themadvice and be a champion for
them.
I again, I have hadopportunities in my time in this
industry that I only gotbecause I had champions behind
me.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
If you are someone who is like me, who's like
people scare me.
Talking for long periods oftime scares me.
If you feel like mentorship issomething you would love to do
and people are something thatterrifies the ever-living
daylights out of you, there aredefinitely other ways to give
back as well, because I thinkthere are definitely podcasts.
(38:33):
There's Cole Haddon, who is awonderful writer, is doing a
bunch of series askingestablished writers different
questions that they would haveloved to have known the answer
to when they were support staff,and so something like that.
That where Cole is going, howdo I give back to this community
in a way that I know I canStuff, like that?
(38:54):
What is it that you can giveback?
You guys can't see.
I'm like motioning with my armsto give back.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
It's so dynamic.
You guys are really missing out.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
It's really underscoring my entire point
here.
It's something where, if youhave a skill or if there is
something that you can do togive back to empower people who
are on the first or second rungof their career ladder, do that.
If you are someone who canmentor, please do that.
Alex is absolutely right.
There's an entire generation ofsupport staff who could use
(39:28):
mentors, and whether that's in awriter's room, on set, in a
casting office, in hair andmakeup, whatever it is, those
mentors need to be there.
But I also think one thing forpeople to keep in mind is that
there are support staffers inevery single department in
Hollywood, not just the writer'sroom, not just on the
(39:49):
director's path, on the DP path.
There are people who are juststarting out who could use your
help.
So who is it in your world thatis just starting out that you
know you could help directly?
Speaker 4 (40:01):
You can also donate money.
Donate money, yes, actually, ifit's not for you.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
We should have said that you should absolutely give
money.
No, that is something I mean.
Like Alex did point out, we area nonprofit and therefore we
are donation-based.
If you would like to help uscontinue the work that we are
doing, you can make a totaltax-deductible donation, which
is great, on our website.
(40:27):
That is going to help usbasically expand.
Make sure that we can keepadvocating for assistance like
we do.
There are other places that youshould absolutely be donating.
Alex is looking at me likeshe's so ready.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Entertainment Community Fund Go for PAs is
also still an amazing place toput your money at WIF because
they are championing women,identifying creators and, as we
know, a lot of people are a lotof women and women identifying
people are trying to come up andthey are facing a lot of
resistance.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
We can't recommend those organizations more to
anybody who is looking for aplace to start, and we really
hope that in the future,whenever we do podcasts like
this, we'll actually be showingup within higher laundry list of
organizations that could behelpful, and if there are any
that we missed, chew us out.
Send us an email tell us wedidn't mention you.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
We apologize.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
We'll put you on our website we like.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
we really want to make sure that people who may
not have gotten theopportunities that Alex and I
had when we came out here,especially in what is becoming a
more and more digital industry,are.
We want to make sure that thosepeople aren't forgotten about,
and so anything that we aren'taware of we want to know about.
(41:52):
So it's not just what we can dofor you, what can you do for us
as well.
Listeners just saying.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
And if you're still wondering, if you're like none
of those options work for me,email us and we'll find a way.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Yes, I've got one last question for y'all.
I think this podcast wasdefinitely born out of a deep
love of storytelling, of makingmovies, of making TV, and we
want to make this industry abetter place because we want to
live in it and because it's whatwe love to do, and I have a
feeling it's similar for y'all.
So, what about the industry?
(42:24):
Makes you excited or hopeful?
Speaker 4 (42:29):
makes you excited or hopeful.
The thing that makes me hopefulare the people that I have
found in this industry.
I was in theater before I cameout here which, by the way, is
all the stuff that we talkedabout but you don't get paid and
I had so much community thereand when I came out here I was
terrified that I would not findthat again.
And I have had the opportunityto meet people that I truly feel
are working to make this abetter place in whatever way
(42:50):
that they can.
I have had two incredibleshowrunners, dara Resnick and
Cheryl J Anderson, who have beenadvocates for me and mentors to
me, and I have been privilegedto meet the other people in
their orbit, and all of thesepeople are really significantly
trying to make the industry abetter place for everyone in it,
(43:12):
and it does start with just afew people that want that, and I
know that it feels so.
David and Goliath, I know thatyou look up at the WB water
tower and go like how could Ipossibly go up against this?
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Why is Ryan Gosling still up there?
Speaker 4 (43:33):
But the fact of the matter is that this isn't a
sense of revolution, and everysingle revolution starts with
just a few people saying I'mtired of this.
I was so good.
Thank you.
I'm a writer.
I don't know who you are.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Oh my God, you should be a writer, if you weren't on,
I think for me it's seeing thedifference of when I to continue
that cycle anymore, who arewaking up and acknowledging that
(44:16):
, yes, what we have been part ofis a cycle of abuse.
We have perpetuated as well astaken the abuse.
We're both victims andperpetrators, and I think what
we're going to be seeing in thenext 20 years is going to be a
(44:40):
significant change from how itwas when we first started out.
I'm very hopeful that when I'min my 50s, I'll be reading about
Hollywood and, even if theissues are still there, there
will be people who are speakingout about them, as opposed to
whispering about the issuesbehind closed doors and being
(45:03):
scared that, if they even speakto the toxicity of the industry,
that they'll be blacklisted.
And I'm not saying that thereisn't still retribution, that
people are still not scared tospeak out.
That is still absolutelyhappening.
But it says something that wecan loudly proclaim this
(45:23):
industry as having toxic rootsand toxic foundations and not
have to worry that any of uswill be blacklisted.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Amen.
Thank you both, so so much forthis.
This has been great to have youon the podcast, liz, and Alex,
and for everything you've beendoing.
Speaking to your point aboutnot having to whisper about
things in darkness, we weretalking with Alex before you got
here about one of the thingsthat we want to do is, while we
are, you know, being anonymousabout victims and abuses and
(45:52):
perpetrators and all thosethings, to be able to name names
of the good guys, right, and soyou guys have named several
names in this, in this interview, and we really appreciate that.
Just want to give you a chanceto say if there's anybody else
or any other organization thatpops into your head that should
be on the list of people who aremaking Hollywood a happier
(46:14):
place.
Who would that be?
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Joelle Garfinkel.
Oh hell, yes, oh, my God, Ilove that woman so much.
I think Joelle is phenomenal.
And Joelle is someone whosegenerosity just found the right
outlet this time.
She's always been thiswonderful.
She's always been this generous.
The fact that she started GreenEnvelopes if you know her like,
you're not surprised whatsoever.
Speaker 4 (46:37):
I want to mention Megan and Claire from the
Blacklist.
They are.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
I got tongue-tied thinking about it, because
they're so great, we're so inawe of them.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
They're such incredible women and they are,
uh franklin's right hands andthey are very boots on the
ground and they are the onesthat, when they have these
blacklist uh labs, they are theones with the writers propping
them up, keeping them going, andthey stay in touch.
I'm having breakfast with themthis week, yeah the other.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
One other organization I want to shout out
is TIE Think Tank for InclusionEquity.
They are our siblings under theWomen in Film banner and they
are an organization that hasbeen doing the hard work on
behalf of women and writers ofcolor.
Specifically, they are led bywomen identifying and writers of
(47:30):
color and they are honestly.
They've done so much data onwhat the issues that a lot of
writers from underserved groupsare facing and they've been.
They've put out fact sheets,they've made sure that they've
had panels.
They've done so much to try andstrengthen the community.
Like just giving them a shoutout because they are also doing
(47:52):
the very, very difficult work.
Speaker 4 (47:55):
We should shout out our team.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
Yep Quincy Cho, who I came on during the strike and
has very much become like ourright hand.
She's incredible, yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
All of our volunteers for Pay Up Hollywood and,
honestly, I really got to give acouple of shout outs to some of
the very big donors that we had.
Like you know, alexi HawleyCheryl was a huge donor to us
David Shore, who was a massivedonor during the pandemic.
A lot of writers who really dugdeep into their pockets to try
(48:29):
and make sure that support staff.
Mike Royce is one that I reallyhave to shout out.
We love Mike Royce and TanyaSiracho, who is also someone who
has been very focused on makingsure that support staff is
trained and treated respectfully.
Speaker 4 (48:46):
Dara Resnick who did an entire fundraiser for her
birthday and raised over $7,000for us.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Oh, wow, yeah.
So a lot of these folks who doit because it's the right thing
to do and who don't go out andbrag about this because they
don't want the praise.
They just want to make surethat the next generation of
Hollywood execs and directorsand writers are as diverse and
(49:12):
as great storytellers as we wantthem to be.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Just again.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show, for sharing
everything you guys have beenworking towards, everything
you've done for the industry,for support staff specifically,
and for naming the names of thegood guys.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
That's incredible.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
We love the good guys .
They're around.
So just again, your website ispayuphollywoodcom, correct.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
Instagram it is payuphollywood, because someone
tried to scam us into purchasingthe Pay Up Hollywood handle.
On Twitter, it is just atpayuphollywood, and those are
the best ways to keep in touchwith us and what PayUpHollywood
is doing.
If you want to get involved,send us an email at
PayUpHollywood, at gmailcom.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Fantastic.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Thank you Thank you guys Go create in peace
everybody.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
The Hollywood Confessional is produced by
Megan Dane and Jair Zamora-Thal.
Joelle Garfinkel is ourco-producer and AJ Thal is our
post-production coordinator andeditor.
Hollywood Confessional is aNinth Way Media production.
Follow us on socials atFessUpHollywood of Hollywood.
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