November 21, 2024 • 25 mins
"When I first met him, I was like, this guy is going to be a fucking problem."
In Part 2 of our oral history "Portrait of a Survivor," we hear from a new perspective on an abusive Hollywood showrunner... that of his assistant's close friend.
"He has that cult leader personality, that sort of psychopath thing where he's very superficially charming. I know a lot of people with those personalities."
We hear how our confessor escaped the toxic situation with her friend's clear-eyed perspective and support. And we see how it all came roaring back to her years later, when she saw a warning on an assistant board against working with someone... and the subject line was her abuser's name.
"I think the initial email came out at like eight in the morning. By 10:30, there were like 15 more emails from different people, like, 'He's a terrorist.' 'He's the worst person I ever met.' All these people sharing their experiences. Then a reporter reached out to me asking for a comment."
As the confessor and her friend navigate the process of trying to go public about a powerful abuser in Hollywood, we're also joined by TV/film critic and journalist Maureen "Mo" Ryan. Mo has worked with countless survivors, especially for her book Burn It Down. In the process, she has found perspective... and even hope.
"Anyone, in any job, is often confused about what to do about a problematic situation. But in this industry, the disincentives are huge. And those have not really gone away... But many, many people have found a positive way forward from having come forward."
Join us for this powerful conclusion of "Portrait of a Survivor" to see how our confessor dealt with the fallout of abuse in her own life, and how she found the strength and support she needed to move on.
Connect with us:
Check out some of our favorite shows:
- Screenwriters' Rant Room
- Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss
- It Happened in Hollywood
- The Secret History of Hollywood
Hollywood Confessional is a Ninth Way Media production, produced by Meagan Daine and J.R. Zamora-Thal.
Sound Effects and Music provided by Zapsplat and Pixabay.
Keywords: filmmaking podcast, film podcast, screenwriting podcast, entertainment podcast, Hollywood, filmmaking, writerslife, actorslife, setlife
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Previously on Portrait of a Survivor.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I was talking to my friend and I was like leaning
over the bar and I was wearing adress.
It wasn't a short dress whereyou could see my, you know
whatever but I was leaning overin a dress and walked by and
grabbed my ass.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
So some of those guys , you know right away you're
dealing with a predator.
We learned to expect thatbehavior, we learned to expect
the monster, and that makes itharder for people who are
friends with a person who's notbehaving appropriately to see
that behavior for what it is.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Came in a couple minutes later.
He's like what's up?
And I said he grabbed my assand you know his response was
like I knew this was going tohappen and I was like I want to
report him.
And he's like, well, we've gotto be smart about this.
Maybe the solution is that youjust don't come into the office
anymore when you're at the pointof feeling like you're dirt.
(01:03):
Then you accept dirt.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
So it was then that the abuse really started.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
When I was maybe 25, my friend was an assistant on a
show, was the number two on theshow, he ran the writer's room
and they loved him and he was agreat boss because he's good at
managing the staff.
As a number two, he's good atmaking that guy the enemy.
You know, he has that cultleader personality, that sort of
(01:43):
psychopath thing where he'svery superficially charming, and
I know a lot of people withthose personalities.
So when I first met him I waslike this guy is going to be a
fucking problem.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
We started forming this codependent relationship.
I was at his house all the timewe were working on this pilot.
He had to fire his nanny forinsane reasons I can't get into,
and then he asked if I wouldwant to be the nanny.
He was going to pay me morethan my actual salary that I was
getting paid to be hisassistant, so I felt like I
(02:17):
couldn't say no.
He kept making all thesepromises about if his pilot went
I would be staffed, so it feltlike I could see light at the
end of the tunnel.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
One day there was a party at his house.
My friend was dressed up allcute.
She was an assistant, so shewas making no money, but she had
on these cute shoes, high heels, and because we were on grass
she had taken her heels off andB***h took one of her heels and
threw it for his puppy to fetch.
Nobody else clocked that it wasweird or bad.
So I was like, oh, this guy's abig problem, because not only
(02:54):
does he do these things, but thepeople who are with him every
day have been conditioned not tosee them.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
We went to lunch with a friend of ours.
This was somebody that I reallyliked.
We had been on a show together.
We went to lunch with a friendof ours.
This was somebody that I reallyliked, we had been on a show
together, but we hadn't reallytalked about why I wasn't coming
into the office anymore.
When we got together for lunchstarted joking about how the
reason I wasn't coming into theoffice was because everyone
wants a piece of me.
He was joking about it in a waythat there was a kernel of
(03:23):
truth, but made it to a funnything, you know, and our friend
was kind of playing along.
He was like, oh well, yeah, whohasn't thought of a night with
her?
Now, when I say it, I'm like heshouldn't have even said that.
But at the time I was like, oh,this is just an awkward
situation.
Bleep is putting him in.
And then Bleep's response tothat was yeah.
(03:44):
The first day I met her, Ifantasized about us having a
night together and our clothespassionately falling to the
ground.
But then I knew it would neverwork out between us and I was
just standing there and I waslike you're talking about me in
the third person and about thissituation that I didn't have any
control of, in response to whyI haven't been in the office.
(04:05):
It was very manipulative in away that, like if you were the
other person, it just seems likea jokey, lighthearted
conversation.
But to have your boss talkabout you that way, it was very
confusing Because on one hand,he'd be like, oh, you're my
little sister, I'm going toprotect you, and then on the
(04:27):
other, he was literally throwingme to the wolves and he himself
was a wolf.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Years go by.
My friend is his assistant forprobably a decade.
He sexually harassed her.
He was racist.
He was terrible in all thesedifferent ways her.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
He was racist, he was terrible in all these different
ways.
I was like manning his kids.
So I was literally sitting atthe kitchen table feeding his
daughters and I was working onhis outline.
He was a great writer, but hewas a procrastinator.
He would spend all day, youknow, drinking wine and smoking
cigarettes and doing anythingbut actually writing.
And so all of a sudden theoutline was due and he was
stressed about it.
So he asked if I could start onit for him.
(05:10):
He's like just put down thebeats, you don't have to write
it, I'll rewrite it.
But essentially I was writingthe outline.
So I'm doing this, I'm feedinghis children, he's like in the
next room tinkering at the piano, and all of a sudden I feel a
pair of jeans smack me in thehead and he's like can you order
me a pair of these jeans?
I need more pants.
(05:30):
And I'm looking at my computer,looking at his kids.
I feel these pair of pants hitme and I'm like I can't do this
anymore.
Thankfully he was starting tohave conversations with me that
he didn't think his deal wasgoing to get renewed.
He didn't think he was going tobe able to keep me as an
(05:51):
assistant, so I started to lookfor other jobs.
The last time I saw him I'dgotten into the guilt, but I
(06:12):
hadn't gotten staffed.
So I was getting breakfast withpeople I knew, as we do, getting
advice.
So we were sitting at breakfastand he was telling me about how
he had a show that we'd workedon together that had gone.
He was running it.
(06:33):
I didn't even get a call tomeet on it, so I very nervously
asked him I'm like you know, Ihaven't worked in a year.
This is the longest I've gone.
What would you do if you wereme?
He turned to me and said youknow a lot of powerful men.
What I would do is I would saymy service is a thousand dollars
and you can do whatever youwant with me for a night.
I was like what do you mean bythat?
(06:55):
Trying to give him the benefitof the doubt, and he said what
do you think?
Speaker 4 (07:02):
My stomach dropped, but I was in a different
emotional place, so I knew afterthat breakfast, this is the
last time I'm going to be in hispresence has worked for a bunch
of different networks and thatdoes make a difference, because
complaints don't accumulate andalso hr doesn't give a shit
(07:23):
about assistants, like if shecan't handle him, get a new
assistant.
He's the person that matters.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Years later I'm on like a script coordinator
writer's assistant trackingboard.
It's mainly people sharingscripts, but sometimes it's
negotiating rates and postingjobs and stuff like that, and
something came through on theboard and the subject was his
name.
I was like oh shit.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
It was a thing about how terrible this assistance
experience was working for whata narcissist is, how abusive he
is, how terrible the situationis.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I think the initial email came out at like eight in
the morning, by 1030,.
There were like 15 more emailsfrom different people that were
like I worked with him on a showand he was a terrorist.
I worked with him here and he'sthe worst person I ever met All
these people sharing theirexperiences.
Then a reporter reached out tome asking for a comment.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
I reached out to Mo Ryan, because that's who you
want to write one of thesethings she was doing, so she
couldn't do it.
So we worked with thisjournalist and my friend agreed
to speak on the record.
She wanted me to be therebecause she's one of my best
friends and we were closethrough the whole process.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
It felt like this story was bigger than me.
This is someone who is stillabusing people Maybe not to the
extent that he did with me, butmaybe even worse and he's still
out there and he's still gettingwork.
So I agreed to meet thereporter, wanted to meet at the,
which is like a Hollywoodinstitution.
(08:56):
The thing that was so crazyabout meeting this reporter
there is that that was arestaurant that and I would go
to a lot.
So as I was talking to thisreporter, it was like I could
literally see images of us in abooth having martinis in the
middle of the day and I'm likewhat the hell was that
relationship?
Speaker 4 (09:20):
So we went through the whole thing.
I told the journalist the storyI told you guys about throwing
the shoe and the journalist saidI don't get it.
And I said what don't you get?
And she was like I don't getwhat he did, that was bad and
what that says about him.
And my stomach just sankbecause I was like if you don't
understand the nature of anarcissistic abuser, I don't
(09:42):
know that you should be writingthese stories.
Like we're talking about aKeith Raniere, you know what I
mean?
We're talking about a cultleader type abuser.
You can't necessarily just listthe things he did.
You have to explain the context, why they're abusive, how this
stuff escalates.
Ultimately, the article didn'tcome out very well.
(10:03):
I'm not saying the journalistis a bad writer, I'm just saying
she was the wrong person forthis piece.
The only thing that works is MoRyan writes something about
them, that's it.
There's no point in going toanyone else.
She's the only one whounderstands the psychology.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Here's the thing there have been stories Mo Ryan
has done and nothing happened.
Here's the thing there havebeen stories Mo Ryan has done
and nothing happened.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
This audio is taken from the Hollywood Confessional
interview with Mo Ryan on June20th 2024.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
For anyone, this can be a difficult process to
navigate, but especially for thepeople with the least power,
it's incredibly fraught.
People do pay a cost.
Before you even start thatprocess of asking around or
talking to people, there's thecost of is this all in my head?
And then there's the slow drip.
Drip of sort of like the slowand steady attack on your
(10:53):
self-esteem because you thinkand the industry is training you
to think a lot of people, Ican't cut it, it's me, I'm the
problem.
I want to sit here and tell youas someone who's been around
this industry for more than 30years no one's perfect, but a
lot of the time what I'mwitnessing and what I'm hearing
about is someone being made tofeel that they cannot trust
(11:17):
their own senses, their own mind, their own emotions, their own
reaction.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
It feels like a fever dream now, like that.
For years this was someone inmy orbit.
We would just drink in themiddle of the day and he would
sell me all these promises aboutmy career and like who I was as
a person.
It just felt like a fraud.
When the article came out, Ichecked my phone all the time
for like a week after you know,seeing if he was going to
(11:45):
contact me or yell at me youknow stuff like that but he
never did and nothing ever cameof that article.
I later had coffee with someonewho was working on show when
the article came out and she wassaying that when the article
came out there were many closeddoor meetings.
Apparently the reason he wasnot fired is because the star of
(12:07):
the show adores him.
He's protected because of her.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
It's really sad because he's hurt so many people
Like the story didn't matter.
It just didn't matter the shitthat he did to my friend, the
shit he did to anybody.
And now the article has beenwritten, that's it.
There can't be another one.
He's in the clear.
Now the article has beenwritten, that's it.
There can't be another one.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
He's in the clear now .
There's no way the star didn'tknow about this article, but
he's so good at like.
If you're in his light he isgood to you, but if he can't get
anything from you, he is acompletely different person, and
(12:50):
it all just makes me very verysad, Not just for me but for a
lot of people.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
I'm not done with this, For my friend doing the
article was about protectingfuture assistants you know what
I mean and trying to keep himfrom doing the same thing to
other people.
So I personally have beenthinking about it a lot, but I
would never suggest that she getback into it again.
I just don't fucking know whatyou do.
What do you do?
Speaker 5 (13:17):
There's not really easy answers to any of it.
I think continuing to just atleast have a forum to talk about
these difficult things, youjust at least have a forum to
talk about these difficultthings.
Like anyone in any job is oftenconfused about what to do about
a situation.
You know a problematicsituation, but I think in this
industry the disincentives arehuge and those have not really
(13:37):
gone away.
Like we wouldn't be having thisconversation and you wouldn't
have this podcast if it was likewell, I fixed it, but many,
many people have found apositive way forward from having
come forward.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
There's a part of me that's so bruised emotionally
that I'm like did I do somethingwrong?
Like could I have donesomething different?
When I'm in a vulnerable placewhere I have to think about it,
that's when I like to start toquestion things, but for the
most part I'm like no, like he'sa fucking abusive asshole.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
The ultimate question is am I going to destroy my
career if I try to do somethingabout X, wreck my future?
I am not overly prone tooptimism, but I honestly think
that that doesn't have to be thecase.
I'm really proud of this.
The very first story I didposed me to the first big
(14:38):
workplace misconduct story I did.
I had 19 sources and none ofthem blew up their career.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I ended up interviewing with someone we had
tangentially known and theinterview was wonderful.
I remember thinking, oh, thisis how a boss should act.
I remember asking him at theend of the interview how long do
you think it would be before Ifind out if I got the job?
And he looked down at his watchand said you got the job.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
And he looked down at his watch and said you got the
job.
Hello, hollywood Faithful,thank you so much for joining us
.
I am your podcast priest, meganDane, no-transcript and our
(15:54):
personal career trajectories andall that.
I think those of you guys whohave been listening for a while
now you know that the reason westarted this podcast was to give
people a safe space where theycould tell their stories,
(16:15):
confess their deep, dark secrets, and I think we started out
with this particular series ofthese two episodes just wanting
to create that safe space.
But then we realized all of asudden there are a lot of people
who have stories about this oneperson and in fact a lot of
these stories have been told andyet nothing has happened to
impact this person's career.
In fact, they are still ashowrunner of one of the biggest
(16:38):
shows on television.
I guess we're kind of grapplingwith that a little bit and the
feeling of like is it enough tojust give people a space to tell
their stories?
Can we do more?
And what does it mean that thisstory or this version of events
is now out there in the world?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
I think an important part of this podcast for me is
getting these stories out therefor the people that are coming
into Hollywood, the young peopleand the dreamers that are
coming to Hollywood to juststart their careers, because
these predators are out thereand those are the kind of people
that they're going to betargeting, and I think it's so
important for all of you comingto have this knowledge, because
(17:19):
knowledge is power when youdon't have any other power.
I want you to be able torecognize these patterns so that
you can step away if you haveto, because no job in Hollywood
is worth getting abused over,and I know that you might need
the money.
You obviously have the dream ifyou're coming here, but no path
(17:40):
is a straight line.
You can always take a step back, you can always take a step to
the side, because getting abusedjust is not worth it, and if
you can recognize those patterns, maybe you can stop it before
it starts.
Speaker 6 (17:55):
Being able to recognize these types of
positions or these types ofsituations, these types of
people, going into it is goingto be so helpful.
I mean, I've been in a numberof situations like this
throughout my career, not justin Hollywood but beyond and in
life, and and I didn't I wasn'tmade aware, I guess, beforehand,
like I didn't grow up in thetype of household where you
(18:17):
would talk about personalitydisorders or, you know, go to
therapy or anything like that.
So, so I didn't realize what itwas that made me attracted to
these kinds of people and made,um, made them attracted to me,
um, what made me a likely victim.
So I've been through thesetypes of situations over and
(18:37):
over again and I know that onceyou get into them, it's not it.
It may not necessarily looklike, oh, I'm walking into a
toxic situation, right, you know, like the confessor's friend
said in the second episode,these are the types of people
who are going to be verycharming, who are going to win
you over, who are going to makeyou feel like everything is
(18:58):
going to be great with them.
And when you first startworking for them, maybe you
really need that.
I mean, hollywood is a hardplace and you need for somebody
to tell you that you havepotential or that you're special
.
I had a boss that was veryabusive in general and also
(19:20):
toward me, who a week after Istarted working for this person,
like took me out to breakfastand was, like you realize how
special you are, right and likethat was.
That was the hook and they getyou in like that and they make
you feel like they're going toopen up the world to you and
give you all these opportunities.
(19:42):
So then by the time you realizethat that's not going to happen,
or you start to see like thesigns that maybe they're not
delivering on their promises ormaybe they're just not the good
person that you thought theywere, it's kind of too late.
Because you're so investedprinciple right Like you've
(20:07):
invested a huge amount of timeand energy into this and at the
same time, a lot of times thesetypes of people will isolate you
.
They will take up so much ofyour time and energy that
suddenly, like you're notnetworking anymore, you're not
able to talk to or developrelationships with other people
in their circle not meaningfulrelationships at any rate and
you're also like probably noteven having time for your
friends and family.
(20:27):
It's starting to sound verycultish.
Well, guess what?
That's because these peopleoperate in the same way as cult
leaders, right?
They bring people into theircircle by making them feel loved
and special, and then theyexploit the hell out of them.
So if you get into that type ofsituation I think I don't know
(20:48):
it can be really really hard toaccept that that's what's
happening, because it means that, first of all, you're not
getting the thing that youthought you were in the
beginning.
The validation and theopportunities that you thought
you were getting early on.
Those are all gone.
And second of all, it meansthat you've kind of been played
for a fool, and that's aterrible thing to have to reckon
(21:12):
with.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
And I think it's important to realize that if it
happens to you, it's through nofault of your own, it's the
fault of the predator, and onceyou're ready to take a step, you
can always take a step forward,a step out, a step to wherever
you need to go to take thatfirst step to making the
situation better.
And I think an importantresource that we found through
(21:36):
the Hollywood Commission isMyConnex.
Speaker 6 (21:39):
Yeah, that's right.
The Hollywood Commission, forthose who don't know, is an
organization that works to endharassment, discrimination and
bullying and abuse in theentertainment industry.
They're the ones that put outthe I think it's biennial report
.
That kind of shows like thefacts and figures about who's
working in what departments atwhat levels in the industry and
(22:00):
their demographics.
And they also have created thisonline tool called MyConnects,
which is amazing.
You can find it by going totheir website,
hollywoodcommissionorg, and lookat the menu, and there's a link
to MyConnects.
And what this is is it's anonline reporting system where
(22:20):
you can do a lot of differentthings.
If you have experienced somekind of harassment, you can
either just make a note of itand save it in the system.
It goes to no one.
All it does is timestamp theincident right so you can keep
records.
That way, you can also submit areport, but stay anonymous
(22:43):
until someone else also submitsa report on the same person.
So this can be really importantif you feel like you know, like
maybe I'm the only one this ishappening to, or a lot of times.
These kinds of abusers are greatgaslighters.
So maybe you're not sure ifyou're being abused, or maybe
(23:05):
you're imagining things or maybeyou did something to deserve it
.
You know, all of those horriblethoughts go through our heads,
right?
So you can file a report andthen wait to be notified.
You know, all of those horriblethoughts go through our heads,
right, so you can file a reportand then wait to be notified.
And if somebody else files areport on the same person, then
you get a notification and thenyou can decide whether or not
you want to pursue some kind ofaction against this person.
(23:26):
And I think if this tool hadexisted at the time when the
confessor in the show was um wasgoing through the abuse, it
might've sort of changedHollywood history, because there
were many, many people who hadexperienced issues with this
person and part of the part ofthe problem was that he
(23:48):
continued to move from show toshow, network to network, these
different shows, differentnetworks, their HR departments
are not sharing information.
So if anybody ever did reporthim, it wasn't being like
collated and filed to, likecreate this file of or the show
of like long-term abuse on thepart of this person.
But now, thanks to this tool,myconnects that kind of paper
(24:12):
trail can be created and peoplewho have worked on different
productions with someone cancome together and form a
coalition to make the abuse stop.
So, again, the reporting toolis called MyConnects, and
there's also a direct link totheir website.
It is wwwmyconnectsorg.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Thank you so much for joining us on Hollywood
Confessional for Portrait of aSurvivor.
You can catch us on socialmedia, at fessuphollywood, on
Instagram and X.
We'll be back again withaspecial episode about doing
right in Hollywood withoutanybody watching and being
rewarded for it.
Speaker 6 (24:58):
And until then, Go create in peace.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
The Hollywood Confessional is produced by
Megan Dane and Jair Zamora-Thal.
Joelle Garfinkel is ourco-producer and aj thal is our
post-production coordinator andeditor.
Our cast today amy baclini,taylor brooks, cody vong,
special effects provided by zapsplat and pixabay.
Hollywood confessional is aninth way media production.
(25:30):
Follow us on socials at fess uphollywood.
Previously on Portrait of a Survivor.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I was talking to my friend and I was like leaning
over the bar and I was wearing adress.
It wasn't a short dress whereyou could see my, you know
whatever but I was leaning overin a dress and walked by and
grabbed my ass.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
So some of those guys , you know right away you're
dealing with a predator.
We learned to expect thatbehavior, we learned to expect
the monster, and that makes itharder for people who are
friends with a person who's notbehaving appropriately to see
that behavior for what it is.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Came in a couple minutes later.
He's like what's up?
And I said he grabbed my assand you know his response was
like I knew this was going tohappen and I was like I want to
report him.
And he's like, well, we've gotto be smart about this.
Maybe the solution is that youjust don't come into the office
anymore when you're at the pointof feeling like you're dirt.
(01:03):
Then you accept dirt.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
So it was then that the abuse really started.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
When I was maybe 25, my friend was an assistant on a
show, was the number two on theshow, he ran the writer's room
and they loved him and he was agreat boss because he's good at
managing the staff.
As a number two, he's good atmaking that guy the enemy.
You know, he has that cultleader personality, that sort of
(01:43):
psychopath thing where he'svery superficially charming, and
I know a lot of people withthose personalities.
So when I first met him I waslike this guy is going to be a
fucking problem.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
We started forming this codependent relationship.
I was at his house all the timewe were working on this pilot.
He had to fire his nanny forinsane reasons I can't get into,
and then he asked if I wouldwant to be the nanny.
He was going to pay me morethan my actual salary that I was
getting paid to be hisassistant, so I felt like I
(02:17):
couldn't say no.
He kept making all thesepromises about if his pilot went
I would be staffed, so it feltlike I could see light at the
end of the tunnel.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
One day there was a party at his house.
My friend was dressed up allcute.
She was an assistant, so shewas making no money, but she had
on these cute shoes, high heels, and because we were on grass
she had taken her heels off andB***h took one of her heels and
threw it for his puppy to fetch.
Nobody else clocked that it wasweird or bad.
So I was like, oh, this guy's abig problem, because not only
(02:54):
does he do these things, but thepeople who are with him every
day have been conditioned not tosee them.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
We went to lunch with a friend of ours.
This was somebody that I reallyliked.
We had been on a show together.
We went to lunch with a friendof ours.
This was somebody that I reallyliked, we had been on a show
together, but we hadn't reallytalked about why I wasn't coming
into the office anymore.
When we got together for lunchstarted joking about how the
reason I wasn't coming into theoffice was because everyone
wants a piece of me.
He was joking about it in a waythat there was a kernel of
(03:23):
truth, but made it to a funnything, you know, and our friend
was kind of playing along.
He was like, oh well, yeah, whohasn't thought of a night with
her?
Now, when I say it, I'm like heshouldn't have even said that.
But at the time I was like, oh,this is just an awkward
situation.
Bleep is putting him in.
And then Bleep's response tothat was yeah.
(03:44):
The first day I met her, Ifantasized about us having a
night together and our clothespassionately falling to the
ground.
But then I knew it would neverwork out between us and I was
just standing there and I waslike you're talking about me in
the third person and about thissituation that I didn't have any
control of, in response to whyI haven't been in the office.
(04:05):
It was very manipulative in away that, like if you were the
other person, it just seems likea jokey, lighthearted
conversation.
But to have your boss talkabout you that way, it was very
confusing Because on one hand,he'd be like, oh, you're my
little sister, I'm going toprotect you, and then on the
(04:27):
other, he was literally throwingme to the wolves and he himself
was a wolf.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Years go by.
My friend is his assistant forprobably a decade.
He sexually harassed her.
He was racist.
He was terrible in all thesedifferent ways her.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
He was racist, he was terrible in all these different
ways.
I was like manning his kids.
So I was literally sitting atthe kitchen table feeding his
daughters and I was working onhis outline.
He was a great writer, but hewas a procrastinator.
He would spend all day, youknow, drinking wine and smoking
cigarettes and doing anythingbut actually writing.
And so all of a sudden theoutline was due and he was
stressed about it.
So he asked if I could start onit for him.
(05:10):
He's like just put down thebeats, you don't have to write
it, I'll rewrite it.
But essentially I was writingthe outline.
So I'm doing this, I'm feedinghis children, he's like in the
next room tinkering at the piano, and all of a sudden I feel a
pair of jeans smack me in thehead and he's like can you order
me a pair of these jeans?
I need more pants.
(05:30):
And I'm looking at my computer,looking at his kids.
I feel these pair of pants hitme and I'm like I can't do this
anymore.
Thankfully he was starting tohave conversations with me that
he didn't think his deal wasgoing to get renewed.
He didn't think he was going tobe able to keep me as an
(05:51):
assistant, so I started to lookfor other jobs.
The last time I saw him I'dgotten into the guilt, but I
(06:12):
hadn't gotten staffed.
So I was getting breakfast withpeople I knew, as we do, getting
advice.
So we were sitting at breakfastand he was telling me about how
he had a show that we'd workedon together that had gone.
He was running it.
(06:33):
I didn't even get a call tomeet on it, so I very nervously
asked him I'm like you know, Ihaven't worked in a year.
This is the longest I've gone.
What would you do if you wereme?
He turned to me and said youknow a lot of powerful men.
What I would do is I would saymy service is a thousand dollars
and you can do whatever youwant with me for a night.
I was like what do you mean bythat?
(06:55):
Trying to give him the benefitof the doubt, and he said what
do you think?
Speaker 4 (07:02):
My stomach dropped, but I was in a different
emotional place, so I knew afterthat breakfast, this is the
last time I'm going to be in hispresence has worked for a bunch
of different networks and thatdoes make a difference, because
complaints don't accumulate andalso hr doesn't give a shit
(07:23):
about assistants, like if shecan't handle him, get a new
assistant.
He's the person that matters.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Years later I'm on like a script coordinator
writer's assistant trackingboard.
It's mainly people sharingscripts, but sometimes it's
negotiating rates and postingjobs and stuff like that, and
something came through on theboard and the subject was his
name.
I was like oh shit.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
It was a thing about how terrible this assistance
experience was working for whata narcissist is, how abusive he
is, how terrible the situationis.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I think the initial email came out at like eight in
the morning, by 1030,.
There were like 15 more emailsfrom different people that were
like I worked with him on a showand he was a terrorist.
I worked with him here and he'sthe worst person I ever met All
these people sharing theirexperiences.
Then a reporter reached out tome asking for a comment.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
I reached out to Mo Ryan, because that's who you
want to write one of thesethings she was doing, so she
couldn't do it.
So we worked with thisjournalist and my friend agreed
to speak on the record.
She wanted me to be therebecause she's one of my best
friends and we were closethrough the whole process.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
It felt like this story was bigger than me.
This is someone who is stillabusing people Maybe not to the
extent that he did with me, butmaybe even worse and he's still
out there and he's still gettingwork.
So I agreed to meet thereporter, wanted to meet at the,
which is like a Hollywoodinstitution.
(08:56):
The thing that was so crazyabout meeting this reporter
there is that that was arestaurant that and I would go
to a lot.
So as I was talking to thisreporter, it was like I could
literally see images of us in abooth having martinis in the
middle of the day and I'm likewhat the hell was that
relationship?
Speaker 4 (09:20):
So we went through the whole thing.
I told the journalist the storyI told you guys about throwing
the shoe and the journalist saidI don't get it.
And I said what don't you get?
And she was like I don't getwhat he did, that was bad and
what that says about him.
And my stomach just sankbecause I was like if you don't
understand the nature of anarcissistic abuser, I don't
(09:42):
know that you should be writingthese stories.
Like we're talking about aKeith Raniere, you know what I
mean?
We're talking about a cultleader type abuser.
You can't necessarily just listthe things he did.
You have to explain the context, why they're abusive, how this
stuff escalates.
Ultimately, the article didn'tcome out very well.
(10:03):
I'm not saying the journalistis a bad writer, I'm just saying
she was the wrong person forthis piece.
The only thing that works is MoRyan writes something about
them, that's it.
There's no point in going toanyone else.
She's the only one whounderstands the psychology.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Here's the thing there have been stories Mo Ryan
has done and nothing happened.
Here's the thing there havebeen stories Mo Ryan has done
and nothing happened.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
This audio is taken from the Hollywood Confessional
interview with Mo Ryan on June20th 2024.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
For anyone, this can be a difficult process to
navigate, but especially for thepeople with the least power,
it's incredibly fraught.
People do pay a cost.
Before you even start thatprocess of asking around or
talking to people, there's thecost of is this all in my head?
And then there's the slow drip.
Drip of sort of like the slowand steady attack on your
(10:53):
self-esteem because you thinkand the industry is training you
to think a lot of people, Ican't cut it, it's me, I'm the
problem.
I want to sit here and tell youas someone who's been around
this industry for more than 30years no one's perfect, but a
lot of the time what I'mwitnessing and what I'm hearing
about is someone being made tofeel that they cannot trust
(11:17):
their own senses, their own mind, their own emotions, their own
reaction.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
It feels like a fever dream now, like that.
For years this was someone inmy orbit.
We would just drink in themiddle of the day and he would
sell me all these promises aboutmy career and like who I was as
a person.
It just felt like a fraud.
When the article came out, Ichecked my phone all the time
for like a week after you know,seeing if he was going to
(11:45):
contact me or yell at me youknow stuff like that but he
never did and nothing ever cameof that article.
I later had coffee with someonewho was working on show when
the article came out and she wassaying that when the article
came out there were many closeddoor meetings.
Apparently the reason he wasnot fired is because the star of
(12:07):
the show adores him.
He's protected because of her.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
It's really sad because he's hurt so many people
Like the story didn't matter.
It just didn't matter the shitthat he did to my friend, the
shit he did to anybody.
And now the article has beenwritten, that's it.
There can't be another one.
He's in the clear.
Now the article has beenwritten, that's it.
There can't be another one.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
He's in the clear now .
There's no way the star didn'tknow about this article, but
he's so good at like.
If you're in his light he isgood to you, but if he can't get
anything from you, he is acompletely different person, and
(12:50):
it all just makes me very verysad, Not just for me but for a
lot of people.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
I'm not done with this, For my friend doing the
article was about protectingfuture assistants you know what
I mean and trying to keep himfrom doing the same thing to
other people.
So I personally have beenthinking about it a lot, but I
would never suggest that she getback into it again.
I just don't fucking know whatyou do.
What do you do?
Speaker 5 (13:17):
There's not really easy answers to any of it.
I think continuing to just atleast have a forum to talk about
these difficult things, youjust at least have a forum to
talk about these difficultthings.
Like anyone in any job is oftenconfused about what to do about
a situation.
You know a problematicsituation, but I think in this
industry the disincentives arehuge and those have not really
(13:37):
gone away.
Like we wouldn't be having thisconversation and you wouldn't
have this podcast if it was likewell, I fixed it, but many,
many people have found apositive way forward from having
come forward.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
There's a part of me that's so bruised emotionally
that I'm like did I do somethingwrong?
Like could I have donesomething different?
When I'm in a vulnerable placewhere I have to think about it,
that's when I like to start toquestion things, but for the
most part I'm like no, like he'sa fucking abusive asshole.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
The ultimate question is am I going to destroy my
career if I try to do somethingabout X, wreck my future?
I am not overly prone tooptimism, but I honestly think
that that doesn't have to be thecase.
I'm really proud of this.
The very first story I didposed me to the first big
(14:38):
workplace misconduct story I did.
I had 19 sources and none ofthem blew up their career.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I ended up interviewing with someone we had
tangentially known and theinterview was wonderful.
I remember thinking, oh, thisis how a boss should act.
I remember asking him at theend of the interview how long do
you think it would be before Ifind out if I got the job?
And he looked down at his watchand said you got the job.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
And he looked down at his watch and said you got the
job.
Hello, hollywood Faithful,thank you so much for joining us
.
I am your podcast priest, meganDane, no-transcript and our
(15:54):
personal career trajectories andall that.
I think those of you guys whohave been listening for a while
now you know that the reason westarted this podcast was to give
people a safe space where theycould tell their stories,
(16:15):
confess their deep, dark secrets, and I think we started out
with this particular series ofthese two episodes just wanting
to create that safe space.
But then we realized all of asudden there are a lot of people
who have stories about this oneperson and in fact a lot of
these stories have been told andyet nothing has happened to
impact this person's career.
In fact, they are still ashowrunner of one of the biggest
(16:38):
shows on television.
I guess we're kind of grapplingwith that a little bit and the
feeling of like is it enough tojust give people a space to tell
their stories?
Can we do more?
And what does it mean that thisstory or this version of events
is now out there in the world?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
I think an important part of this podcast for me is
getting these stories out therefor the people that are coming
into Hollywood, the young peopleand the dreamers that are
coming to Hollywood to juststart their careers, because
these predators are out thereand those are the kind of people
that they're going to betargeting, and I think it's so
important for all of you comingto have this knowledge, because
(17:19):
knowledge is power when youdon't have any other power.
I want you to be able torecognize these patterns so that
you can step away if you haveto, because no job in Hollywood
is worth getting abused over,and I know that you might need
the money.
You obviously have the dream ifyou're coming here, but no path
(17:40):
is a straight line.
You can always take a step back, you can always take a step to
the side, because getting abusedjust is not worth it, and if
you can recognize those patterns, maybe you can stop it before
it starts.
Speaker 6 (17:55):
Being able to recognize these types of
positions or these types ofsituations, these types of
people, going into it is goingto be so helpful.
I mean, I've been in a numberof situations like this
throughout my career, not justin Hollywood but beyond and in
life, and and I didn't I wasn'tmade aware, I guess, beforehand,
like I didn't grow up in thetype of household where you
(18:17):
would talk about personalitydisorders or, you know, go to
therapy or anything like that.
So, so I didn't realize what itwas that made me attracted to
these kinds of people and made,um, made them attracted to me,
um, what made me a likely victim.
So I've been through thesetypes of situations over and
(18:37):
over again and I know that onceyou get into them, it's not it.
It may not necessarily looklike, oh, I'm walking into a
toxic situation, right, you know, like the confessor's friend
said in the second episode,these are the types of people
who are going to be verycharming, who are going to win
you over, who are going to makeyou feel like everything is
(18:58):
going to be great with them.
And when you first startworking for them, maybe you
really need that.
I mean, hollywood is a hardplace and you need for somebody
to tell you that you havepotential or that you're special
.
I had a boss that was veryabusive in general and also
(19:20):
toward me, who a week after Istarted working for this person,
like took me out to breakfastand was, like you realize how
special you are, right and likethat was.
That was the hook and they getyou in like that and they make
you feel like they're going toopen up the world to you and
give you all these opportunities.
(19:42):
So then by the time you realizethat that's not going to happen,
or you start to see like thesigns that maybe they're not
delivering on their promises ormaybe they're just not the good
person that you thought theywere, it's kind of too late.
Because you're so investedprinciple right Like you've
(20:07):
invested a huge amount of timeand energy into this and at the
same time, a lot of times thesetypes of people will isolate you
.
They will take up so much ofyour time and energy that
suddenly, like you're notnetworking anymore, you're not
able to talk to or developrelationships with other people
in their circle not meaningfulrelationships at any rate and
you're also like probably noteven having time for your
friends and family.
(20:27):
It's starting to sound verycultish.
Well, guess what?
That's because these peopleoperate in the same way as cult
leaders, right?
They bring people into theircircle by making them feel loved
and special, and then theyexploit the hell out of them.
So if you get into that type ofsituation I think I don't know
(20:48):
it can be really really hard toaccept that that's what's
happening, because it means that, first of all, you're not
getting the thing that youthought you were in the
beginning.
The validation and theopportunities that you thought
you were getting early on.
Those are all gone.
And second of all, it meansthat you've kind of been played
for a fool, and that's aterrible thing to have to reckon
(21:12):
with.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
And I think it's important to realize that if it
happens to you, it's through nofault of your own, it's the
fault of the predator, and onceyou're ready to take a step, you
can always take a step forward,a step out, a step to wherever
you need to go to take thatfirst step to making the
situation better.
And I think an importantresource that we found through
(21:36):
the Hollywood Commission isMyConnex.
Speaker 6 (21:39):
Yeah, that's right.
The Hollywood Commission, forthose who don't know, is an
organization that works to endharassment, discrimination and
bullying and abuse in theentertainment industry.
They're the ones that put outthe I think it's biennial report
.
That kind of shows like thefacts and figures about who's
working in what departments atwhat levels in the industry and
(22:00):
their demographics.
And they also have created thisonline tool called MyConnects,
which is amazing.
You can find it by going totheir website,
hollywoodcommissionorg, and lookat the menu, and there's a link
to MyConnects.
And what this is is it's anonline reporting system where
(22:20):
you can do a lot of differentthings.
If you have experienced somekind of harassment, you can
either just make a note of itand save it in the system.
It goes to no one.
All it does is timestamp theincident right so you can keep
records.
That way, you can also submit areport, but stay anonymous
(22:43):
until someone else also submitsa report on the same person.
So this can be really importantif you feel like you know, like
maybe I'm the only one this ishappening to, or a lot of times.
These kinds of abusers are greatgaslighters.
So maybe you're not sure ifyou're being abused, or maybe
(23:05):
you're imagining things or maybeyou did something to deserve it
.
You know, all of those horriblethoughts go through our heads,
right?
So you can file a report andthen wait to be notified.
You know, all of those horriblethoughts go through our heads,
right, so you can file a reportand then wait to be notified.
And if somebody else files areport on the same person, then
you get a notification and thenyou can decide whether or not
you want to pursue some kind ofaction against this person.
(23:26):
And I think if this tool hadexisted at the time when the
confessor in the show was um wasgoing through the abuse, it
might've sort of changedHollywood history, because there
were many, many people who hadexperienced issues with this
person and part of the part ofthe problem was that he
(23:48):
continued to move from show toshow, network to network, these
different shows, differentnetworks, their HR departments
are not sharing information.
So if anybody ever did reporthim, it wasn't being like
collated and filed to, likecreate this file of or the show
of like long-term abuse on thepart of this person.
But now, thanks to this tool,myconnects that kind of paper
(24:12):
trail can be created and peoplewho have worked on different
productions with someone cancome together and form a
coalition to make the abuse stop.
So, again, the reporting toolis called MyConnects, and
there's also a direct link totheir website.
It is wwwmyconnectsorg.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Thank you so much for joining us on Hollywood
Confessional for Portrait of aSurvivor.
You can catch us on socialmedia, at fessuphollywood, on
Instagram and X.
We'll be back again withaspecial episode about doing
right in Hollywood withoutanybody watching and being
rewarded for it.
Speaker 6 (24:58):
And until then, Go create in peace.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
The Hollywood Confessional is produced by
Megan Dane and Jair Zamora-Thal.
Joelle Garfinkel is ourco-producer and aj thal is our
post-production coordinator andeditor.
Our cast today amy baclini,taylor brooks, cody vong,
special effects provided by zapsplat and pixabay.
Hollywood confessional is aninth way media production.
(25:30):
Follow us on socials at fess uphollywood.
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