October 16, 2025 • 20 mins
Nothing is wrong with you for feeling lonely right now.
It is a fundamental human need to feel connected to others, as essential to our wellbeing as food or shelter. Yet loneliness has become a public health epidemic due to factors like digital media, cultural values of work and individualism, and even the structure of our workplaces and neighborhoods.
In April of 2019, Dr. Vivek Murthy, physician and former US Surgeon General, spoke about this at the Festival of Faiths in Louisville, Kentucky. Six years later in our first episode, Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones Mayfield listens for how his words resonate in her own life and world. During this moving exchange across time and space, Dr. Mayfield points out that underneath the loneliness epidemic is a yearning to belong and calls for a return to the “front porch” where we know and are known. It is from that place of belonging that we are better able to live in an orientation toward love and curiosity rather than fear. This is a conversation we need more than ever; how to find our way back to belonging.
About Dr. Vivek Murthy: Dr. Vivek H. Murthy served as the 19th Surgeon General of the United States from 2014-2017 and as 21st Surgeon General of the United States from 2021-2025. He is an Indian-American physician and author, known for his work on public health issues like loneliness and social media's impact on youth mental health, and for co-founding several health-focused organizations. Murthy earned his undergraduate degree from Harvard and both his M.D. and M.B.A. from Yale, completing his residency at Brigham and Women's Hospital. He is the author of the New York Times Bestselling Book, Together: The Healing Power of Human Connection in a Sometimes Lonely World.
About Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones Mayfield: Before returning to her home state of Kentucky in 2012, Lauren served the Riverside Church in New York City as the Director of Worship and held pastoral leadership positions in Baptist, Mennonite, and United Church of Christ churches across the country. Ordained in the United Church of Christ, Lauren completed her Doctor of Ministry degree at the Pacific School of Religion where she focused her research on social justice and transformation. As part of her doctoral project, she created liturgy for the communal work of advocacy, considered the role of faith in the public square, and led an innovative Reparations Task Force as the Associate Pastor of Care and Justice at Highland Baptist Church in Louisville, KY. Lauren became the Executive Director of the Center for Interfaith Relations in December 2024 and believes it is interfaith dialogue that connects us through collective curiosity and communal wondering.
The Center for Interfaith Relations celebrates the diversity of faith traditions, expresses gratitude for our unity, and strengthens the role of faith in society through common action. They host the nationally renowned Festival of Faiths and offer year-round programming that fosters compassion in our world. They are also committed to sharing the insights and inspiration rooted in the wisdom of faith traditions, and strive to cultivate communities that are true to the motto of “Many Faiths, One Heart, Common Action.”
Website: www.centerforinterfaithrelations.org | www.festivaloffaiths.org
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YouTube: youtube.com/FestofFaiths
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sally Evans (00:07):
Welcome to the launch of holy echoes, a new
podcast from the Center forinterfaith relations, where I
revisit prophets of pastfestival of faiths with a
spiritual leader of today tolisten for echoes of revelation,
enduring guidance and visionaryhope. Together, we listen for
(00:30):
the wisdom that persists. Inthis first episode, we listen
back to physician and formerUnited States Surgeon General,
Dr Vivek Murthy, who spoke atthe Festival of Faiths in April
of 2019,
Dr. Vivek Murthy (00:45):
I think one thing that's important to know
is that loneliness is not a newphenomenon. People have
struggled with loneliness forcenturies, but it does feel like
it has a different flavor today,because there are different
factors that we're strugglingwith. So one of the factors is
actually there is a structuralissue, which is that we've
actually become far more mobilethan we ever were before, which
is amazing. I came here toLouisville, and it took me two
(01:07):
hours on a flight. Wow, that'sextraordinary, but it also means
that we have moved away from thecommunities that we have known
we grew up with. Sometimes wemove many times over the life
course, and that does something,it fractures relationships, and
then we end up having to try torebuild those relationships. The
second thing that has happenedhas been the advent of new forms
(01:29):
of technology that have enabledus to communicate in new ways.
Now, on the face of it, thisshould be an outright benefit,
but it's been mixed. Sometimeswe use technologies in ways that
profoundly connect us. Icouldn't, for example, talk to
my grandmother very much when Iwas growing up, because she was
in India. And we didn't haveFaceTime because it didn't
exist. We didn't have emailbecause that didn't exist.
(01:49):
Either. We would write theseletters on called aerograms, on
these blue pieces of paper thatsome of you may remember that
would take two weeks to bedelivered to India, and you'd
buy them from the post office.
And was very exciting, but itwas certainly not very
immediate. And so technology,though, it has a potential to be
great, but what has alsohappened, what matters is not.
It's not really a question of,is tech good or bad? It's a
(02:12):
question of, how do we usetechnology? Are we using it to
optimize connection or not? Andif you look at the data around
this, and you look at thereality of how we're using
technology, you see that we'reoften using it in ways that
diminish our connection. We areoften distracted, in fact, in
talking to people over dinner orjust face to face by the phones
that are vibrating in our pocketor often vibrating face up on a
(02:34):
table, we sometimes substituteour in person, face to face
interactions for instead onlineinteractions, thinking that,
well, if I've got a bunch offriends online and I'm posting
on their Facebook wall or DMingthem on Twitter, then that's I'm
still connecting with them, butit's a very different sort of
level and quality of connectionthan engaging with people face
(02:55):
to face. So technology isimportant, but I think the last
one that I'll mention, I think,is the most vexing and
challenging of all, which is isculture and how our culture has
evolved and shifted over time.
And I worry that we have becomea culture that has increasingly
focused on individualism andthat has also increasingly
focused on work, and we have notactively said relationships and
(03:19):
people are not important, butwe've allowed those factors,
relationships and people, toslide out of negligence, in a
sense. But what that tells us,really is that we've built a
society that's centered aroundwork and accomplishment and
reputation, as opposed tosociety centered around people.
And what we've done is fitpeople in where it's convenient,
(03:41):
but that has taken it a tollover time, as we've become
busier and busier and busier,all of these forces together, I
think, have combined to make tocreate one of the great ironies
of the modern age, which is thatwe are more connected than ever
by technology, but more lonelyand disconnected than any of us
thought we would be.
Sally Evans (04:02):
And with us today as our first guest to respond to
Dr Murthy is Reverend Dr LaurenJones Mayfield, the executive
director of the Center forinterfaith relations. Hey,
Lauren,
Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones Mayfi (04:15):
Hi, Sally. It's so good to be with
you today.
Sally Evans (04:18):
Lauren, what do you hear today that echoes what Dr
Murthy is saying.
Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones May (04:23):
Here, I hear several echoes of what Dr
Murthy is saying in our everydayexperiences, of how we are
living life, how we are soconnected and arguably addicted
now to our technology, and whatthat says about our
interpersonal communications,and that challenge that I hear
(04:46):
from him to put people and putour relationships back at the
center of not just our lives,but also the ways that we are
using and depending on ourtechnology. How do we wake up?
How do we practice presence? Howdo we say to our friend across
the lunch table or to our kidsat the dinner table, I'm going
to turn my phone off and noteven just turn it over on the
(05:09):
table. I'm going to put it inanother room so that I can be
fully present to you during thecourse of this meal.
Sally Evans (05:16):
You know, when we think of interfaith work, we're
often talking about the value ofinterconnectedness. I'm curious
how you see this value reflectedin your faith, and why is this
important to your work with theCenter for interfaith relations,
Rev. Dr. Lau (05:32):
Interconnectedness is everything. Actually, when I
hear that word, I think aboutthe invitation to be present to
one another. I think about theopportunity to respond to one
another in ways that arereflective of the African
proverb Ubuntu, that says I ambecause we are. It is this
(05:57):
belief in the universal, and itis a belief in that sharing
ourselves is what connects usall. It's a direct response and
diversification and leaning awayfrom the individualism of our
culture today and leaning intothe community and the embodiment
of who we are together. I alsoam thinking about at the end of
(06:21):
my yoga classes, when I put myhands at heart center and I bow
to the instructor, and theinstructor bows to the class and
says namaste. I bow to you. Mysoul in me sees your soul in
you, and we are more completebecause of that togetherness,
because of that, seeing becauseof our interconnectedness.
(06:46):
Interconnectedness in interfaithwork is so important because so
often when we are visitinghouses of worship or sacred
sites that are not from our owntradition, it can be quite
intimidating. What if I say thewrong word at the wrong time.
What if I speak when it's not myturn to speak? What if I am
(07:06):
unsure of when I sit or when Istand, or when I have an
individual voice, or when I ampart of the community? And this
is intrinsic, I think, to allthe world religions, is this
notion of grace, in this notionof forgiveness, in this notion
of joy and laughter, so thatwhen there are mistakes made,
(07:26):
they're not in isolation, andthey're not opportunities to
accuse one another of getting itwrong or not having it all
figured out. But rather, it isan opportunity to lean in and to
laugh if it's appropriate, tolaugh and to weep when it is
appropriate to weep and to sharespace together and to continue
learning from one anotherthrough wonder and curiosity.
Sally Evans (07:50):
Now let's go back and listen to another excerpt
from Dr Murthy.
Dr. Vivek Murthy (07:55):
And so we when this doctor came by, we were
just thanking him profusely. Wesaid, Thank you so much for
being there and for helping usget our little girl cared for in
the way that she needed. Andafter my thing, I just, I was
completely inarticulate. I wasjust couldn't say anything. But
thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
And I was like, had tears. I waslike, blubbering. I was just a
mess. And he finally juststopped me and put his hand on
(08:20):
my shoulder, and he said, Vivek.
He said, there's no need tothank me. He said, Vivek, you're
one of us. And when he saidthat, you know, it made me feel
like I belonged. It made me feellike they were people who cared
(08:45):
for us, and they were lookingout for us. And it didn't escape
me that there are so many timesin all of our lives where we
walk through the dark, darkhallways of life feeling that
we're alone, that there isn'tsomeone to take care of us. The
extraordinary thing about thisis that he, what he did in that
(09:05):
moment, is he, he allowedhimself to express his love for
us through the service that heprovided. And what we have
realized like in our own lives,ever since we found out that we
were pregnant with our firstson, is we realize that there is
that the most fundamentalquestion, the most fundamental
(09:25):
issue, like of our time, that'sgoing to determine whether or
not our children have a safeenvironment to grow up in, is
the question of what happens inthis deep struggle that's
happening in our country, in ourworld, between love and fear.
Because that is the truth isthat we are locked in this deep
struggle between love and fear,and this love is fear manifests
in lots of different ways. It'sshowing up as insecurity, as
(09:47):
anger, as jealousy as rage, butthe love shows up as well as
kindness as compassion asempathy as generosity, and we
realize. That as much as ourinstincts and who we are is to
be beings of love, that manypeople in our country are living
(10:08):
in a place of fear, and many ofus, if not all of us, are having
many moments where we are livingin that fear as well. It's
affecting our lives, it'saffecting our communities, and
it's affecting our country andthe world. And so the question,
I think, is the most importantfor us to ask ourselves is, what
are we going to do to tip thescales away from fear and
(10:30):
towards love?
Sally Evans (10:33):
Wow, what a powerful moment when Dr Murthy
shares that you're one of us.
You're one of us. Can you tellus about a time when you
experienced that?
Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones Mayf (10:49):
What strikes me as you asked me that
question, Sally, is thevulnerability that is intrinsic
to belonging, that lonelinessisn't new, and yet to talk about
loneliness feels incredibly rawat times, many people know and
many people don't know that forthe majority of my life I have
(11:11):
struggled with an eatingdisorder, and that now I
articulate it as a way of livingin recovery from anorexia, and
the anorexia was a copingstrategy that my brain, all of
our brilliant brains, originate,to cope with pain and trauma and
feelings of loneliness. And sowhen I encountered my anorexia
(11:36):
at a time when I lost control ofit. And the irony of that is
that in anorexia, you think thatyou have control, that I had to
leave my job and my children andmy husband and move to
residential treatment in anotherstate. And intrinsic to eating
(12:02):
disorders, not for everybody,but for almost everybody who has
in struggles and has conqueredan eating disorder. It is this
age old, deep perfectionism. Andwe know from Brene Brown right
that underneath perfectionism isshame. And so as you are one who
(12:23):
is battling this quest to beperfect in all of your
relationships and how you showup in the world, in the ways
that you practice your faith,when that is blanketed with
shame, there is a deepembarrassment in a sense that I
have done something wrong, whichis guilt, and even beyond that,
(12:45):
that I am wrong. And so I leftfor residential treatment, and I
was in my perfectionism,convinced that I was not sick
enough to be there, that itcould always be worse, that it
could always include analternative treatment or
alternative interventions. Andwhen I was early in my time at
(13:10):
residential treatment for myanorexia, one of the group
therapists asked a question, andI don't remember what that
question was, but my answer was,I don't feel sick enough to be
here. I don't feel worth theresources that it's going to
take to help me get better. Idon't feel worthy of this
(13:33):
distance from my family and thisspending of time and energy and
money to go toward me and mytreatment, I felt utterly alone
in that moment and in thatspace, and without saying a
word, this young adult teenagerwho I did not know came up to me
(13:55):
and she hugged me. She didn'tsay anything. She really looked
at me, and she saw me as shehugged me, and that physical
touch was enough to know that Ibelong. Lauren, you're one of
us.
Sally Evans (14:15):
As Dr Murthy referenced the doctor that
helped his child. He explainedthat this doctor expressed his
love through his service. Iwonder what practices we can
engage in to counter the thefactors that we named of
technology and culture around usthat lead to these experiences
(14:38):
of loneliness.
Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones Mayf (14:41):
bell hooks says that belonging is a
place where the soul can rest.
In other words, it is ahomecoming. It is a returning to
that front porch where we areknown and where we know one
another. And so I'm wondering inyour. Question, and as we
process and are dialoguing hereabout what Dr Murthy says, What
(15:04):
are the things that can counterour technological divisions and
the mobility and and the culturearound us? And I find myself
thinking as I'm getting ready tosay this word. I can't believe
I'm getting ready to say thisword, because I'm so I'm not
going to say I'm poor at it. I'mgoing to say, there's so much
(15:27):
opportunity for me to continueto grow into this meditation,
mindfulness presence with acapital P, and with that, when
we are able to be intentionalwith our thoughts and our words
and our actions, often, thereare other balms for this
(15:51):
division and this lonelinessthat is in our culture, I think
we can more readily tap into joyand laughter. I think we are
motivated in new ways to beadvocates and activists for
those who are experiencingloneliness and a cessation from
belonging and can't find theirhome, or who have been outcast
(16:14):
from their homes, but when we'reshowing up, living out of our
values, and when we're showingup mindfully and when we're
showing up with this inspirationto respond with joy and purpose
and grief, there's no stoppingwhat we can do, even if we
(16:38):
continue to feel lonely and lookfor belonging ourselves.
Sally Evans (16:49):
Finally, Dr Murthy closes by naming the deep
struggle between love and fear,what can we do to tip the scales
away from fear and towards love?
Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones Mayfie (17:01):
At first, I wanted to push back on
Dr Murthy for this. I wanted tosay that fear and love are not
mutually exclusive. I wanted tosay that I can be both loving
and fearful at the same time.
And I believe that, and Ibelieve that that harkens to one
of my personal values, which iscourage. But when I paused and
when I listened again to hisidea of fear and love, it came
(17:24):
across more as an orientation.
We can orient ourselves towardfear, or we can orient ourselves
toward love, if we're living inan orientation of love, even
when the dark night of the soulstill happens, because it will,
(17:47):
even when Dr Murthy refers tothose dark hallways that we all
have to walk, even in theorientation to love, there is
still fear, but we arepositioning ourselves toward
curiosity and wonder andcourage. Valerie core is one of
the prophets of our day and agethat is speaking truth in so
(18:11):
many ways through courage andaction and love. And she says
when we are discussing issueswith those who feel like
opponents or with those who havevastly differing viewpoints and
approaches to responding to ourdisagreements. In listening, we
(18:32):
don't grant their argument aslegitimate. In listening to
someone, we're not saying youare right and I'm wrong in truly
listening to someone, which Ibelieve is the orientation to
the house of love. We'regranting their humanity and our
(18:52):
own. We're preserving dignity.
We're not agreeing, we're noteven agreeing to disagree. We're
saying I am because we are evenin the midst of conflict and war
and hate and an orientation thatgets us stuck in the house of
(19:14):
fear.
Sally Evans (19:17):
I love how you helped us ask such important
questions that I think we'llwalk away with today. How do we
accept the invitation to befully present to one another
today. I want to thank ourguest, Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones
Mayfield, for sitting down andsharing her reflections and
(19:38):
wisdom with us. Thanks also toRip Reinhardt and his audio
engineering skills and to theteam at the Center for
Interfaith Relations for theirmultiple levels of support in
this project. I'm Sally Evans,and I hope you'll join us for
the Festival of Faiths, November12 through 15th, with the theme
of Sacred Belonging. Author andfounder of the Revolutionary
(19:59):
Love Project Valarie Kaur,referenced in this episode, is a
keynote speaker. Visitfestivaloffaiths.org to check
out the festival schedule andget your tickets.
Welcome to the launch of holy echoes, a new
podcast from the Center forinterfaith relations, where I
revisit prophets of pastfestival of faiths with a
spiritual leader of today tolisten for echoes of revelation,
enduring guidance and visionaryhope. Together, we listen for
(00:30):
the wisdom that persists. Inthis first episode, we listen
back to physician and formerUnited States Surgeon General,
Dr Vivek Murthy, who spoke atthe Festival of Faiths in April
of 2019,
Dr. Vivek Murthy (00:45):
I think one thing that's important to know
is that loneliness is not a newphenomenon. People have
struggled with loneliness forcenturies, but it does feel like
it has a different flavor today,because there are different
factors that we're strugglingwith. So one of the factors is
actually there is a structuralissue, which is that we've
actually become far more mobilethan we ever were before, which
is amazing. I came here toLouisville, and it took me two
(01:07):
hours on a flight. Wow, that'sextraordinary, but it also means
that we have moved away from thecommunities that we have known
we grew up with. Sometimes wemove many times over the life
course, and that does something,it fractures relationships, and
then we end up having to try torebuild those relationships. The
second thing that has happenedhas been the advent of new forms
(01:29):
of technology that have enabledus to communicate in new ways.
Now, on the face of it, thisshould be an outright benefit,
but it's been mixed. Sometimeswe use technologies in ways that
profoundly connect us. Icouldn't, for example, talk to
my grandmother very much when Iwas growing up, because she was
in India. And we didn't haveFaceTime because it didn't
exist. We didn't have emailbecause that didn't exist.
(01:49):
Either. We would write theseletters on called aerograms, on
these blue pieces of paper thatsome of you may remember that
would take two weeks to bedelivered to India, and you'd
buy them from the post office.
And was very exciting, but itwas certainly not very
immediate. And so technology,though, it has a potential to be
great, but what has alsohappened, what matters is not.
It's not really a question of,is tech good or bad? It's a
(02:12):
question of, how do we usetechnology? Are we using it to
optimize connection or not? Andif you look at the data around
this, and you look at thereality of how we're using
technology, you see that we'reoften using it in ways that
diminish our connection. We areoften distracted, in fact, in
talking to people over dinner orjust face to face by the phones
that are vibrating in our pocketor often vibrating face up on a
(02:34):
table, we sometimes substituteour in person, face to face
interactions for instead onlineinteractions, thinking that,
well, if I've got a bunch offriends online and I'm posting
on their Facebook wall or DMingthem on Twitter, then that's I'm
still connecting with them, butit's a very different sort of
level and quality of connectionthan engaging with people face
(02:55):
to face. So technology isimportant, but I think the last
one that I'll mention, I think,is the most vexing and
challenging of all, which is isculture and how our culture has
evolved and shifted over time.
And I worry that we have becomea culture that has increasingly
focused on individualism andthat has also increasingly
focused on work, and we have notactively said relationships and
(03:19):
people are not important, butwe've allowed those factors,
relationships and people, toslide out of negligence, in a
sense. But what that tells us,really is that we've built a
society that's centered aroundwork and accomplishment and
reputation, as opposed tosociety centered around people.
And what we've done is fitpeople in where it's convenient,
(03:41):
but that has taken it a tollover time, as we've become
busier and busier and busier,all of these forces together, I
think, have combined to make tocreate one of the great ironies
of the modern age, which is thatwe are more connected than ever
by technology, but more lonelyand disconnected than any of us
thought we would be.
Sally Evans (04:02):
And with us today as our first guest to respond to
Dr Murthy is Reverend Dr LaurenJones Mayfield, the executive
director of the Center forinterfaith relations. Hey,
Lauren,
Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones Mayfi (04:15):
Hi, Sally. It's so good to be with
you today.
Sally Evans (04:18):
Lauren, what do you hear today that echoes what Dr
Murthy is saying.
Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones May (04:23):
Here, I hear several echoes of what Dr
Murthy is saying in our everydayexperiences, of how we are
living life, how we are soconnected and arguably addicted
now to our technology, and whatthat says about our
interpersonal communications,and that challenge that I hear
(04:46):
from him to put people and putour relationships back at the
center of not just our lives,but also the ways that we are
using and depending on ourtechnology. How do we wake up?
How do we practice presence? Howdo we say to our friend across
the lunch table or to our kidsat the dinner table, I'm going
to turn my phone off and noteven just turn it over on the
(05:09):
table. I'm going to put it inanother room so that I can be
fully present to you during thecourse of this meal.
Sally Evans (05:16):
You know, when we think of interfaith work, we're
often talking about the value ofinterconnectedness. I'm curious
how you see this value reflectedin your faith, and why is this
important to your work with theCenter for interfaith relations,
Rev. Dr. Lau (05:32):
Interconnectedness is everything. Actually, when I
hear that word, I think aboutthe invitation to be present to
one another. I think about theopportunity to respond to one
another in ways that arereflective of the African
proverb Ubuntu, that says I ambecause we are. It is this
(05:57):
belief in the universal, and itis a belief in that sharing
ourselves is what connects usall. It's a direct response and
diversification and leaning awayfrom the individualism of our
culture today and leaning intothe community and the embodiment
of who we are together. I alsoam thinking about at the end of
(06:21):
my yoga classes, when I put myhands at heart center and I bow
to the instructor, and theinstructor bows to the class and
says namaste. I bow to you. Mysoul in me sees your soul in
you, and we are more completebecause of that togetherness,
because of that, seeing becauseof our interconnectedness.
(06:46):
Interconnectedness in interfaithwork is so important because so
often when we are visitinghouses of worship or sacred
sites that are not from our owntradition, it can be quite
intimidating. What if I say thewrong word at the wrong time.
What if I speak when it's not myturn to speak? What if I am
(07:06):
unsure of when I sit or when Istand, or when I have an
individual voice, or when I ampart of the community? And this
is intrinsic, I think, to allthe world religions, is this
notion of grace, in this notionof forgiveness, in this notion
of joy and laughter, so thatwhen there are mistakes made,
(07:26):
they're not in isolation, andthey're not opportunities to
accuse one another of getting itwrong or not having it all
figured out. But rather, it isan opportunity to lean in and to
laugh if it's appropriate, tolaugh and to weep when it is
appropriate to weep and to sharespace together and to continue
learning from one anotherthrough wonder and curiosity.
Sally Evans (07:50):
Now let's go back and listen to another excerpt
from Dr Murthy.
Dr. Vivek Murthy (07:55):
And so we when this doctor came by, we were
just thanking him profusely. Wesaid, Thank you so much for
being there and for helping usget our little girl cared for in
the way that she needed. Andafter my thing, I just, I was
completely inarticulate. I wasjust couldn't say anything. But
thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
And I was like, had tears. I waslike, blubbering. I was just a
mess. And he finally juststopped me and put his hand on
(08:20):
my shoulder, and he said, Vivek.
He said, there's no need tothank me. He said, Vivek, you're
one of us. And when he saidthat, you know, it made me feel
like I belonged. It made me feellike they were people who cared
(08:45):
for us, and they were lookingout for us. And it didn't escape
me that there are so many timesin all of our lives where we
walk through the dark, darkhallways of life feeling that
we're alone, that there isn'tsomeone to take care of us. The
extraordinary thing about thisis that he, what he did in that
(09:05):
moment, is he, he allowedhimself to express his love for
us through the service that heprovided. And what we have
realized like in our own lives,ever since we found out that we
were pregnant with our firstson, is we realize that there is
that the most fundamentalquestion, the most fundamental
(09:25):
issue, like of our time, that'sgoing to determine whether or
not our children have a safeenvironment to grow up in, is
the question of what happens inthis deep struggle that's
happening in our country, in ourworld, between love and fear.
Because that is the truth isthat we are locked in this deep
struggle between love and fear,and this love is fear manifests
in lots of different ways. It'sshowing up as insecurity, as
(09:47):
anger, as jealousy as rage, butthe love shows up as well as
kindness as compassion asempathy as generosity, and we
realize. That as much as ourinstincts and who we are is to
be beings of love, that manypeople in our country are living
(10:08):
in a place of fear, and many ofus, if not all of us, are having
many moments where we are livingin that fear as well. It's
affecting our lives, it'saffecting our communities, and
it's affecting our country andthe world. And so the question,
I think, is the most importantfor us to ask ourselves is, what
are we going to do to tip thescales away from fear and
(10:30):
towards love?
Sally Evans (10:33):
Wow, what a powerful moment when Dr Murthy
shares that you're one of us.
You're one of us. Can you tellus about a time when you
experienced that?
Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones Mayf (10:49):
What strikes me as you asked me that
question, Sally, is thevulnerability that is intrinsic
to belonging, that lonelinessisn't new, and yet to talk about
loneliness feels incredibly rawat times, many people know and
many people don't know that forthe majority of my life I have
(11:11):
struggled with an eatingdisorder, and that now I
articulate it as a way of livingin recovery from anorexia, and
the anorexia was a copingstrategy that my brain, all of
our brilliant brains, originate,to cope with pain and trauma and
feelings of loneliness. And sowhen I encountered my anorexia
(11:36):
at a time when I lost control ofit. And the irony of that is
that in anorexia, you think thatyou have control, that I had to
leave my job and my children andmy husband and move to
residential treatment in anotherstate. And intrinsic to eating
(12:02):
disorders, not for everybody,but for almost everybody who has
in struggles and has conqueredan eating disorder. It is this
age old, deep perfectionism. Andwe know from Brene Brown right
that underneath perfectionism isshame. And so as you are one who
(12:23):
is battling this quest to beperfect in all of your
relationships and how you showup in the world, in the ways
that you practice your faith,when that is blanketed with
shame, there is a deepembarrassment in a sense that I
have done something wrong, whichis guilt, and even beyond that,
(12:45):
that I am wrong. And so I leftfor residential treatment, and I
was in my perfectionism,convinced that I was not sick
enough to be there, that itcould always be worse, that it
could always include analternative treatment or
alternative interventions. Andwhen I was early in my time at
(13:10):
residential treatment for myanorexia, one of the group
therapists asked a question, andI don't remember what that
question was, but my answer was,I don't feel sick enough to be
here. I don't feel worth theresources that it's going to
take to help me get better. Idon't feel worthy of this
(13:33):
distance from my family and thisspending of time and energy and
money to go toward me and mytreatment, I felt utterly alone
in that moment and in thatspace, and without saying a
word, this young adult teenagerwho I did not know came up to me
(13:55):
and she hugged me. She didn'tsay anything. She really looked
at me, and she saw me as shehugged me, and that physical
touch was enough to know that Ibelong. Lauren, you're one of
us.
Sally Evans (14:15):
As Dr Murthy referenced the doctor that
helped his child. He explainedthat this doctor expressed his
love through his service. Iwonder what practices we can
engage in to counter the thefactors that we named of
technology and culture around usthat lead to these experiences
(14:38):
of loneliness.
Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones Mayf (14:41):
bell hooks says that belonging is a
place where the soul can rest.
In other words, it is ahomecoming. It is a returning to
that front porch where we areknown and where we know one
another. And so I'm wondering inyour. Question, and as we
process and are dialoguing hereabout what Dr Murthy says, What
(15:04):
are the things that can counterour technological divisions and
the mobility and and the culturearound us? And I find myself
thinking as I'm getting ready tosay this word. I can't believe
I'm getting ready to say thisword, because I'm so I'm not
going to say I'm poor at it. I'mgoing to say, there's so much
(15:27):
opportunity for me to continueto grow into this meditation,
mindfulness presence with acapital P, and with that, when
we are able to be intentionalwith our thoughts and our words
and our actions, often, thereare other balms for this
(15:51):
division and this lonelinessthat is in our culture, I think
we can more readily tap into joyand laughter. I think we are
motivated in new ways to beadvocates and activists for
those who are experiencingloneliness and a cessation from
belonging and can't find theirhome, or who have been outcast
(16:14):
from their homes, but when we'reshowing up, living out of our
values, and when we're showingup mindfully and when we're
showing up with this inspirationto respond with joy and purpose
and grief, there's no stoppingwhat we can do, even if we
(16:38):
continue to feel lonely and lookfor belonging ourselves.
Sally Evans (16:49):
Finally, Dr Murthy closes by naming the deep
struggle between love and fear,what can we do to tip the scales
away from fear and towards love?
Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones Mayfie (17:01):
At first, I wanted to push back on
Dr Murthy for this. I wanted tosay that fear and love are not
mutually exclusive. I wanted tosay that I can be both loving
and fearful at the same time.
And I believe that, and Ibelieve that that harkens to one
of my personal values, which iscourage. But when I paused and
when I listened again to hisidea of fear and love, it came
(17:24):
across more as an orientation.
We can orient ourselves towardfear, or we can orient ourselves
toward love, if we're living inan orientation of love, even
when the dark night of the soulstill happens, because it will,
(17:47):
even when Dr Murthy refers tothose dark hallways that we all
have to walk, even in theorientation to love, there is
still fear, but we arepositioning ourselves toward
curiosity and wonder andcourage. Valerie core is one of
the prophets of our day and agethat is speaking truth in so
(18:11):
many ways through courage andaction and love. And she says
when we are discussing issueswith those who feel like
opponents or with those who havevastly differing viewpoints and
approaches to responding to ourdisagreements. In listening, we
(18:32):
don't grant their argument aslegitimate. In listening to
someone, we're not saying youare right and I'm wrong in truly
listening to someone, which Ibelieve is the orientation to
the house of love. We'regranting their humanity and our
(18:52):
own. We're preserving dignity.
We're not agreeing, we're noteven agreeing to disagree. We're
saying I am because we are evenin the midst of conflict and war
and hate and an orientation thatgets us stuck in the house of
(19:14):
fear.
Sally Evans (19:17):
I love how you helped us ask such important
questions that I think we'llwalk away with today. How do we
accept the invitation to befully present to one another
today. I want to thank ourguest, Rev. Dr. Lauren Jones
Mayfield, for sitting down andsharing her reflections and
(19:38):
wisdom with us. Thanks also toRip Reinhardt and his audio
engineering skills and to theteam at the Center for
Interfaith Relations for theirmultiple levels of support in
this project. I'm Sally Evans,and I hope you'll join us for
the Festival of Faiths, November12 through 15th, with the theme
of Sacred Belonging. Author andfounder of the Revolutionary
(19:59):
Love Project Valarie Kaur,referenced in this episode, is a
keynote speaker. Visitfestivaloffaiths.org to check
out the festival schedule andget your tickets.
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