February 27, 2024 • 42 mins
February 27, 2024
124. From Devastation to Preparedness Floodplain Consultant Del Schwalls helps you Get Ready
This week we delve into a topic that's often overlooked until disaster strikes: the risk of flooding. With a blend of expert insights and personal experiences, including a firsthand account of Hurricane Michael's impact on his family's home, Floodplain consultant Del Schwalls talks about the importance of preparation and building resilience against floods. From discussing the complexities of floodplain management to the heart-wrenching realities faced by communities post-disaster, this episode is a wake-up call for homeowners. It prompts a crucial question: will you ignore the risk or take proactive steps to protect your home? Join us as we navigate through the tough choices and learn from the past to build a safer future.
Here’s how you can follow or reach Del Schwalls:
Website: https://www.schwallsconsulting.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dschwalls
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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/george-siegal/
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https://homeownersbeaware.com/contact
Here's the link to the trailer for the documentary film I'm making: Built to Last: Buyer Beware.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
George Siegal (00:00):
Today we're tackling a topic that many of us
might not think about untilit's too late the risk of
flooding.
It's a common threat and it'simportant to talk about not just
the dangers, but also thesolutions.
Have you ever considered howyou would protect your home from
rising waters?
Today we're going deep intowhat it means to be prepared.
We'll discuss how taking actionnow can save a lot of heartache
(00:23):
and loss in the future.
My guest is Del Schwalls, aseasoned flood plane management
consultant from Florida.
In addition to years ofexpertise, Del also has a very
personal experience.
His family's home was heavilydamaged by Hurricane Michael.
He's seen firsthand whathappens when a community is hit
hard and the tough rebuildingthat follows.
He's here to share his insightson why it's crucial to build
(00:46):
homes that can withstand floods.
We'll explore the tough choiceshomeowners face.
Do you ignore the advice andhope for the best, or do you
take steps to make your homesafe?
Del's story is about learningfrom the past to build a better
future.
He knows the importance ofgetting a community on board
with higher building standardsthat can prevent such disasters
(01:08):
from happening again.
I'm George Siegal, and this isHome Owners Be Aware the podcast
that teaches you everything youneed to know about being a
homeowner.
Del.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
Del Schwalls (01:21):
Thanks, george, we'll be here.
George Siegal (01:23):
What part of the country are you in as I'm
speaking to you?
Del Schwalls (01:26):
I'm in sunny Orlando Florida.
George Siegal (01:28):
Very nice, Alright, not too far from Tampa
Now.
I met you when we wereinterviewing you for the
documentary film I'm makingBuilt to Last Buyer.
Beware and I know you're afloodplain manager, you're a
floodplain expert.
When people hear that theydon't always understand what
that is, Tell us exactly what afloodplain manager is.
Del Schwalls (01:50):
Well, it's a thousand different hats
depending on who you're talkingto, but in general, we're
looking at ways to manage theflood risk, so reducing flood
damage, looking at how newthings are built in the flood
risk area and making surethey're built correctly.
Managing the natural functionsof the floodplain, so ensuring
(02:14):
we're actually using thefloodplain for what it's
designed to be, which is flooded.
It's not called a dry plane,it's called a floodplain for a
reason, and so essentiallyworking through how human
interaction with a naturalfloodplain happens, and whether
(02:38):
it be building infrastructure orjust natural functions.
George Siegal (02:43):
Yeah, people really need to understand how
important that is, and I thought, well, maybe we'd get a few
good things out of you.
We could have turned this intothe Dell movie, because you had
so many interesting things tosay and, in particular, about
Mexico Beach, because I madeanother documentary there after
Hurricane Michael in 2018.
And I was so hopeful that theywould take that storm, use it as
(03:03):
an example and then really dothings better.
But it hasn't turned out thatway.
Tell people the way it's goingup there.
Del Schwalls (03:11):
Well, it started that way and I think there were
some really good intentionsinitially after the storms.
But hindsight is 20-20 until youstop looking at the past and I
think the memory got short.
And so, whereas right after thestorm the city did look at
(03:35):
building safer and it wasn'tabandoned ship, which a lot of
people would say would be theway to go you have a 14-foot
wave come through part of yourtown.
You know it's definitely partof the conversation, but it was
looking at what's a higherstandard, a more resilient
standard to rebuild, and theydid for a while, and then
(03:58):
political pressure came in andit's more expensive.
That conversation came in, ofcourse, and eventually the
elected officials step back andlowered the standards again,
which is really dishearteningfor somebody like me who not
only am I in this industry but Ihave a vested stake in this
(04:20):
community because I have familyand friends who either have
vacation houses there or livetheir year-round.
And to see the short memory gofrom building higher to allowing
somebody who had a 14-foot wavecome to their house to rebuild
six inches off the ground ishard to stomach.
George Siegal (04:41):
I can imagine and it's not like you're just some
guy sitting in Tallahassee whosays this is what you have to do
.
Like you said, you have avested interest in that
community.
Your mom lives there.
You want that to succeed andthey had you as a resource which
I would think they would havewanted to take advantage of, and
it didn't sound like they tookfull advantage of what could
(05:01):
have been some incredibly goodadvice.
Del Schwalls (05:04):
Well, yeah, so I was a I guess, a free resource
initially.
I was a stakeholder in therecovery process, helping my
parents navigate the recoveryprocess, a lot of friends and
family.
So right after HurricaneMichael I was part of the Mexico
Beach Facebook group and I justthrew my name out and said, hey
(05:25):
, I'm in this industry, I'mhappy to help anybody go through
the process and explore things.
And then I was watching a lotof the conversations.
I was talking to some of thestaff.
I actually had one of the cityattorneys reach out to me and
asked me questions.
A city commissioner reached outto me and we had an hour-long
conversation about newregulations and what to do and
(05:49):
how to implement that.
But I guess the moreinformation I shared, the less
popular some of that informationwas.
And yeah, I definitely was notpart of the full conversation.
George Siegal (06:10):
By the end we'll say yeah, because people might
ask questions, but they alreadyhave figured out what they want
to hear back from you and thenif they don't like the answer,
it can be very frustrating forthem.
Now I had never been to MexicoBeach until after Michael, so I
didn't see what it looked likein its original stage.
But I imagine along the beachsome houses were elevated, some
(06:30):
were not based on what washedaway.
Now it looks like everythingclose to the water is being
elevated.
So where are they reallyfalling apart in this process
and just not going up highenough?
Del Schwalls (06:43):
Well, we've got a little bit of state regulation
that's overruling, kind of whatthe city would do if they had
their preference.
So a lot of the homes that werethere before were built in the
50s or 40s or even earlier,before the flood maps were
established, before the floodregulations and before some of
(07:04):
the state close to erosionregulations.
So most of those houses wereslab on grade homes and the
elevated homes are going to bemore of your modern, your more
recent development.
But you've got the coastalconstruction control line, the
CCCL, which runs through about.
It's just seaword of Highway 98, which runs down the middle of
(07:26):
Mexico Beach, and so anythingseaword of that has to be built
up higher regardless of thelocal regulations, and so that
kind of overrides it.
And so a lot of those you'reseeing that are built up higher
since the last year and a halfare going to be built because
the state requires it, ccclrequires it, whereas the city's
(07:49):
regulations say if you're in thehundred-year flood zone you
only have to be a foot and ahalf above FEMA's number, and
the state minimum is a footabove.
So it's only six inches higherthan the same requirement in
Orlando, which is not going tohave a way to come through it.
George Siegal (08:07):
Now, and can you if you're on the water side of
the highway?
So are you saying you're notallowed to go as low as 18
inches off the street, or, ifyou're right by the highway,
it's okay to be that low?
Del Schwalls (08:19):
Well, the coastal construction line runs a long
parallel to the highway but itdoesn't hit all the houses.
For example, it hits myparents' house which is four
houses from the ocean, but itwon't catch some of the other
neighbors.
So to answer the question, Iguess more directly, the state
(08:43):
says you have to be elevated,but for the city regulations,
some of those homes that arejust next to Highway 98, that
are four houses from the ocean,they can be built 18 inches
above the ground.
George Siegal (08:59):
Wow, that would.
That would be a veryquestionable choice.
I would think to to dosomething like that.
And another thing you said thatwas really interesting and I
think this can apply to peoplethat live anywhere Is when you
understand the flood zone thatyou're in, in the neighborhood
that you're in, and some peoplego, yeah, block over there in
the flood zone, but I'm not.
That's really a false sense ofconfidence on where water is
(09:21):
going to stop if all hell breaks, lose and there's a massive
flooding event.
So why are people so cavalierabout those?
Del Schwalls (09:28):
Well, I think one of the things we do in the
floodplain management community,and especially the communities
themselves, is we use the wordflood zone to mean floodplain,
and they are not the same wordat all.
Flood zone is an area that'sbeen mapped by somebody to
quantify a certain risk, usuallyrelated to Protecting an
(09:53):
investment of insurance.
So if I'm going to insure yourproperty, you have to at least
do this minimal and.
But floods don't read maps, andso the idea that a arbitrary
line on the we're not arbitrary,it's based on data, is based on
analysis.
But the idea that a line on themap drone at the county level
(10:14):
of resolution is going to informa flood and and it doesn't
quite pass the sniff test.
And Once you start talking withsomebody about this and the
logic of it, they usuallyrecognize oh well, of course,
the floods not gonna behave likethe map says.
(10:35):
But we forget that immediatelywhen we start actually doing
things.
We honestly like the generalIndividual who's either building
a house choosing whether theybuy flood insurance or the
community regulating it.
We behave as if the floodsgoing to stop at a line because
we drew it on a map.
George Siegal (10:56):
Couldn't people actually see that as an
opportunity?
So if, if, if you're a blockaway from the flood zone and
you're not marked as a as a as ahigher risk, you probably get
flood insurance for less money,then the people that are in that
zone and, and the bottom lineis, anybody that lives anywhere
in those areas in fact anybodyanywhere Probably wants to have
flood insurance.
Del Schwalls (11:18):
Well, under the previous FEMA flood insurance
rating system, in or out of thatflood zone would translate to a
cheaper flood insurance policy.
However, under the new system,the analysis ignores the flood
zones.
So even FEMA has recognizedthat the binary in versus out
(11:41):
Category doesn't work forflooding protection.
George Siegal (11:47):
So the days of scoring a great deal are gone.
So, like all those people fromHurricane Harvey that were near
the dam but they weren't in aflood area, now they would, in
theory, have to pay a lot moreto have flood insurance there,
or is that?
How does that work?
Del Schwalls (11:59):
well, the Assessed flood insurance premium is now
at the higher level, but if youalready had flood insurance at
the lower level, you're on aglide path to get there, so that
anybody knew now is going to bepaying more.
Absolutely so they still should.
George Siegal (12:18):
They still should think about having it.
Del Schwalls (12:20):
Well, absolutely.
You know.
It's like my parents.
My mom said they weren't goingto get flood insurance because
they were in the X zone, and Ivery quickly Informed her they
were going to get floodinsurance, and then a 14 foot
wave came through the house, andso you.
I've had a lot of conversationswith homeowners on barrier
(12:40):
islands.
They can see the ocean and theycomplain that 900 a year in
flood insurance is just tooexpensive.
And it seems too expensive whenyou're used to paying 500 a
year.
But when you're on a barrierisland, the risk is in the word
it's a barrier to the hurricanes.
And then you start talkingabout Somebody's risk near the
(13:07):
ocean versus somebody's risk inthe middle of Kansas, 20 miles
from a river.
Should you be paying the samething for flood insurance?
Probably not.
George Siegal (13:19):
I've just heard so many stories of people in
other parts of the country that,because of construction in the
area, the town to the north ofthem, things change, the
dynamics change and all of asudden, water is now a problem
for them.
And you really have to be soaware, not just of your
situation but the entiresituation around you.
Del Schwalls (13:40):
Yeah, so back in the 70s, when the FEMA flood
regulations first gotestablished, after Hurricane
Donna really triggered the needfor a national flood insurance
program, the idea of planningfor the future conditions is
embedded in the regulations.
It's a federal requirement.
Nobody follows it and FEMAdoesn't enforce it.
(14:02):
So when we started thisconversation, fema said, yes,
you have to look at the future.
What's the ultimate developmentgoing to be?
But I guess it's hard to manage.
It's expensive, it's veryadministratively challenging.
So it got thrown out the windowvery quickly and there's not a
lot of communities that actuallyenforce that federal regulation
(14:22):
and FEMA's not requiring itmost of the time.
George Siegal (14:27):
That seems kind of contrary to being proactive
about disasters.
Isn't it a lot cheaper to thinkabout it on the front end than
to clean up on the back end?
Del Schwalls (14:36):
It is, and I'm definitely not trying to throw
FEMA under the bus.
You know FEMA's a very smallword to describe a giant group
of people.
At the end of the day, you havelimited resources and where are
we going to spend thoseresources?
But yeah, it is much more costeffective to prevent the damage
than repairing it later.
Out of all the analysis and thereports that have looked at
(14:59):
this, some say for every dollaryou spend preventing the damage,
you save six on recovering.
And even the most low estimatesay $1 saves four.
And so it's extremelybeneficial financially to keep
the damage from happening.
George Siegal (15:19):
And then we talked to another gentleman in
Mexico Beach who was we talkedto him out on the street looking
up at all the houses that arebeing elevated, but they're
being made out of wood, and hethought they should all be built
like the house we featured inthe last house, standing out of
some type of block reinforcementnot wood, and not just because
(15:39):
of of flooding but because ofwind.
And he said when you'reelevating these wood structures
now, the higher you go, thestronger the wind is.
So he thought they might bemore dangerous now that they're
elevated than they were atground level.
Del Schwalls (15:53):
Well, sometimes they can be and there is a
benefit to having a little bitof movement.
You know it's like when youbuild a bridge.
You don't build a bridge to berock solid it needs to move with
the wind.
That makes it safer, so thebuilding materials may have
something like that.
I'm not a structural engineerso don't quote me on that, but
(16:16):
you know it's funny.
With the last house standingconversation at the National
Flood Conference for ASFPMseveral years ago, that house
came up a lot right afterHurricane Michael and some of
those storms and there was areally big mixed emotion about
it because a lot of the designprofessionals in the flood world
(16:38):
were saying we don't want tocommunicate the idea of build a
tank on the beach and you'refine, especially with sea level
rise and climate change comingabout, because you can build
something that will withstand it.
But does it make sense to spend$9 per dollar you could have to
(17:03):
build that tank or wouldanother option be warranted?
George Siegal (17:09):
Yeah, we did see some impressive construction
over in Panama City where theyhave the tie downs from the
foundation to the first floor tothe second floor.
It's all connected.
It's all pretty tight.
But I've had people tell me,yeah, but if there's a category
five hurricane, that's not goingto do as well as a concrete
block house would.
But a gentleman I interviewedin the last house standing, hank
(17:31):
Ovinck, talked about how muchcan you bunker your community?
How much can people, willpeople spend?
So maybe they're doing it right.
I guess we won't know until thenext disaster and you never
really want to find out that way, because then it's too late.
Del Schwalls (17:45):
Yeah, well, and it's the idea of what's
acceptable risk.
We looked at.
You know, hurricane Michaelcame through Mexico Beach with a
14 foot deep wave.
Do you build everything inMexico Beach 14 feet off the
ground?
Well, that would protect youfrom a Michael.
But a mile and a half down theroad there wasn't even ocean on
(18:08):
the ground in some areas.
So do we want to protect from aHurricane Michael 14 foot wave,
or is there a lower level toprotect, to knowing that if a
big one hits, we're going to getdamaged?
But we're going to accept thatrisk.
You know it's how many.
How many donuts do you eat foryour health?
(18:29):
Well, there's an acceptableamount of risk for the enjoyment
of that extra donut.
And so I think that's part ofthe conversation is what is the
acceptable risk?
Because we can't protecteverything.
George Siegal (18:39):
Well, if I saw you stuff in your face with
donuts and I'm sitting rightnext to you and then I see you
have a heart attack and die, Imight think twice about eating
donuts.
Exactly yes.
Del Schwalls (18:49):
But in reality, you know, I've got family.
Well, I won't go down theserabbit trails because they have,
but yeah, it's a very validstatement.
George Siegal (19:01):
So when you look at your mom's house as an
example, it was elevated, but itgot a lot of water inside.
What was that like afterMichael?
Del Schwalls (19:10):
Well.
So there were a couple ofperfect storm conditions going
on with her house as well.
So the house was built at ahigher standard because the
original person who built itwanted to, so it's elevated.
The bottom level was breakwaywalls, so when the waves came
through, it pushed out thestairwell walls without pushing
(19:32):
the building over, which isgreat.
That's what it's designed to doand they had hurricane shutters
which kept the wind and therain out.
The problem is is, once thatbottom level got pushed out,
then the wind got in, went upthe stairwell and pushed the
shutters out from the inside,and so then the rain driven
(19:52):
water got in from top to bottom,and so, while the structure,
the envelope, was still standingabout the end of it, the whole
thing had to be gutted, thewater sealant drywall pulled out
down to the rafters and to thestuds.
George Siegal (20:08):
And how long, how many years did it take to get
it back to normal?
Del Schwalls (20:14):
A year and a half, I think they got the CO, I
believe in April of 2020.
George Siegal (20:23):
Okay now I was interviewing a gentleman the
other day.
We were talking about that woodconstruction that they do up in
the panhandle and he said hisbiggest concern is not
necessarily the wind worryingabout it Like you say, you can't
always plan for the worst kindof disaster but because it's
there's so much wood when waterdoes get in.
We have a huge termite problemIn the state of Florida and you
get that decay around windowsand in parts of the wall and
(20:46):
then the structure iscompromised Because that wood is
now deteriorating and has beendevoured by termites.
And he said that's actually abigger risk.
Del Schwalls (20:56):
Yeah, it's, it's all part of that, that
conversation, because one pieceof damage opens it up to more,
just like the wind damage openedit up to rain Water damage.
Well, now you got rotting woods, you have mold and you have
deteriorating woods, so you havetermites and and, and, so it's
definitely a combination there.
(21:17):
If you can stop one, you canstop the other, and a lot of
times yeah, we're probablyrequires a lot of maintenance.
George Siegal (21:24):
Yesterday I interviewed the, the CEO of the
Tampa Housing Authority, and itwas really fascinating to see
all the new homes they'rebuilding For people that are
concrete.
They're only building concreteapartment complexes, whereas a
mile away from them, for therest of the population, they're
building wood Apartmentcomplexes.
So it's like somebody has itfigured out and somebody's just
(21:47):
ripe for a disaster.
Del Schwalls (21:50):
Yeah, well, and if you were talking to, let's say,
the average homeowner in MexicoBeach, their first response is
gonna be well, we had concreteblock homes on Mexico Beach and
those all got washed away.
Of course, they were slab ongrade with no rebar connecting
everything.
And so the anytime the one sizefits all kind of blanket
(22:12):
statement comes into into aconversation about flood
resiliency, it very quicklycommunicates the wrong message.
You know, wood versus concrete?
Well, there's some areas wherea Wood structure might be that,
but the, the tie-down, theconnection points the foundation
to the piles, to the walls, tothe roof.
(22:34):
Spreading out that force of thehurricane wind or even the
flood waters across the entirestructure is always Beneficial.
And then what is myconstruction Material comes into
play as part of thatconversation.
George Siegal (22:53):
Did you get a chance to get out to Panama City
and see the house that tippedover in the tornado in January?
Del Schwalls (22:59):
I did not there's a.
George Siegal (23:01):
That's amazing.
We went over there and gotvideo of that.
I mean it says second time it'shappened to that house.
There's a row of houses on thebeach there and with the same
house tipped over.
That happened several years agoand it was just that one house.
Everything else was fine, andThen behind that, where that
tornado hit, an entire block ofhomes that were apartments older
(23:23):
buildings were completelydestroyed by by a tornado.
And I interviewed Roy Wright,who's an expert on resiliency
and how to build things theright way Because of the studies
that they do with hisorganization, and he said newer
structures, structures that arebuilt right, wouldn't have that
with your Regular tornadoes,that there are things we have
(23:43):
the technology to build better,but the older structures are
going to be vulnerable and thenpoor construction is always
going to be vulnerable.
Del Schwalls (23:52):
Yeah, and it's funny, I was talking to a
gentleman in Centabel who had ahouse there, house from the
1800s.
His family's been in theirfamily for you know, generations
and during one of thehurricanes that house was
literally picked up.
It's a two-story house.
Wood frame construction waspicked up and moved I don't know
(24:14):
two or three houses down.
The entire thing was intact.
It was a very strongly built,you know, a Very strongly built.
You know old hardwood timberConstruction and so all they did
was go in and put Tim rollingtimbers under it and roll it
back into place.
(24:35):
And Because that's what theydid back in the 1800s, because
they knew the waves are gonnacome, but nowadays a house like
that would have been completely,you know, destroyed by the
water.
George Siegal (24:48):
Yeah.
Dynamic that is you boy.
If you have a chance to lookthat up or Google it in Panama
City, I mean, it's reallyunbelievable and it's even more
stunning to see it in person.
It almost looks like a set oftoy houses and then one is just
knocked over, but unfortunatelythat's somebody's life.
That's there.
That's a lot of money it'sgonna take to fix that and the
fact that it's happened twice.
(25:09):
Good luck selling that housenow.
Del Schwalls (25:11):
Yeah, well, I gave a presentation on the Mexico
Beach recovery at the Australianfloodplain conference this past
year and One of the examples Iuse is a homeowner in Mexico
Beach had a four-story home, butthe picture I show you is a
two-story house, completelyintact.
It's a blue house.
(25:32):
We're like well, what happenedhere?
And you don't realize thatthose two stories that are on
the ground are story numberthree and four of the house that
was Two blocks away.
It's a.
During the hurricane Michael itwashed out the bottom two and
somehow Took the third andfourth story and just floated it
(25:52):
along and set it down and thewhole thing was intact.
It was just.
It was the head, not the body.
George Siegal (25:58):
You know, I've always wondered why people
choose some of the colors thatyou do to paint their house.
Maybe because it's easier tofind it once it blows away.
You know, we're chuckling aboutit, but it's so heartbreaking
when you see it.
It's like we used to go toSanta Belle Island every year
and it's just devastating whathappened there.
They have such a long road torecovery.
(26:18):
It's just.
Del Schwalls (26:19):
It's really sad to see yeah, and I think one of
the problems with the wholeflood recovery industry in
general is it it's such a soundbite today that's gone tomorrow.
If you talk to people aboutMexico Beach today, they may say
, oh yeah, that was that cityfrom years ago, I think.
(26:40):
But yeah, they're fine nowbecause nobody's really paying
attention, just like Panama Cityor Fort Myers Beach.
Those areas, once it's past theheadlines, we kind of forget
about it.
And the practical applicationof that is that we often forget
to continue to learn the lessonsthat nature has already taught
(27:01):
us, and so we memory is short.
George Siegal (27:05):
Yeah, when you hear the term and I've heard so
many people say this when I'veinterviewed them or talked to
the people in the community Well, maybe this will serve as a
wake-up call.
I kind of feel we shouldalready be awake.
We have the technology to knowwe can do it better.
We can all see video of whathappened to kind of relive it.
Why do we continue to make thesame mistakes?
Del Schwalls (27:27):
Yeah, well, and I think that's a universal truth
and the wake-up call.
We see plenty of them, but itwon't happen to me.
And then when it does happen toyou, it doesn't always change
behavior.
You know if.
If you have a heart attack, doyou immediately go healthy.
If you have a lung cancer scare, do you immediately stop
(27:47):
smoking?
So those kind of sameconnections.
If my neighbor flooded, doesthat mean I'm gonna abandon any
area that could flood?
George Siegal (27:59):
Yes, yes and yes.
Del Schwalls (28:01):
It should and it.
George Siegal (28:02):
You know that what it Excuse me.
What is true is we only seewhat the media covers.
It's like we stayed in a placeand we were up there Fort St Joe
.
I had never heard of that.
I didn't know they even existedwhen, because all the focus was
Mexico Beach.
They were wiped out pretty badtoo, and it's just.
There's so many areas that younever hear about.
(28:24):
But they're living a very sadexistence now or a long road of
recovery because they weren'tproperly prepared.
Del Schwalls (28:34):
Yeah, there's a lot of areas like that that they
don't make the sizzle reel onthe weather channel or they're
one video versus all the othersand and so we overlook it.
And you know it's like when youknow some of these smaller
communities get hit with withthe hurricanes and the storm
(28:56):
surges, they just if they're notas well known of a name or it
doesn't grab somebody in a soundbite, we kind of overlook them.
You know there's a county northof Panama City that has been
fighting, flooding, ever sinceHurricane Michael and the entire
county has had issues with.
(29:18):
You know, before Michael, noreal, real big flooding problems
and every since then, becauseof the way the storm Demolish
the tree inventory so there'sless trees, drinking groundwater
, so when it rains the waterstays, and even some things we
don't understand.
There are Areas that used to befields that have been a lake
(29:40):
every since Michael and it goesdown a little bit and it comes
back up.
So you have people that havebeen in these areas for
generations, never had anystanding water and now their
entire yard has been a lake fortwo and a half years.
Well, that's rough that and andthey and they cry out for help,
and they raised their hands forhelp, but nobody pays attention.
(30:01):
Because if I said the county,you'd say, well, I've never even
heard of that place.
George Siegal (30:07):
Yeah, if it doesn't, if it doesn't get in
the spotlight, it's very hard toTo have it change.
What is the what's the takeawayhere, then, for people?
When you're trying to pick aplace to live, you're trying to
make a good decision.
How can you best positionyourself to not become a flood
victim?
Del Schwalls (30:27):
Well, wait, before I jump into that, I do want to
mention that County.
I'm talking about WashingtonCounty.
I wasn't gonna mention theirname, but they, their name
doesn't get mentioned enough.
So I will say that thatcommunity, that County, has been
hurting ever since Michael andthey need to be a little more
focused on.
But as far as when you buy ahome, being informed and not
(30:49):
trusting somebody else to tellyou what you need to know.
And this came up in in Orlandowhen Hurricane Irma came through
, your hurricane Ian camethrough, the whole city was
under water, basically at times.
And and everybody's runningaround in Orlando thinking how
is this possible?
How is this possible?
I was talking to my friends,parents, who were standing on
(31:12):
their street and the three lakesin the neighborhood were all
one giant lake.
And her mom said I cannotbelieve the waters is high.
And I said well, the FEMAfootmap show this is where it's
supposed to be or where it'sgoing to be.
And she was so surprised thatthere was a map showing this
(31:32):
level of inundation.
And so they've lived there fordecades.
But the idea that when we make apurchase, we're trusting the
person selling us the propertyto disclose all the risk, that,
first of all, is a little naive,because there's a conflict of
(31:54):
interest in the person sellingyou something and and them
telling you all the problemswith that thing, because there's
a concern that's going to hurtthe property value, and even
relying on the realtor who'shelping us buy it.
They only have a certain levelof expertise and most realtors
are not fluent in flood, even ina state like Florida, and so,
(32:19):
as a homeowner looking to buysomething, you've got to make
sure you're you're trusting,you're not just relying on big
brother to tell you everythingthat you need to know, and so
really doing a lot of research.
George Siegal (32:34):
You ever play the game hot potato when you were
growing up, where you justthat's that's what a lot of it
seems like owning houses aroundhere is it's like, well, I'll
just toss it to the next personand make it their problem.
Somebody's got to put theirfoot down and say this isn't
safe.
Del Schwalls (32:47):
Yeah, when that gets into the, the flood
disclosure laws.
And this is a huge battlebecause there is no federal
flood insurance requirement ordisclosure requirement or, sorry
, flood damage disclosure oreven a disclosure that flood
insurance is going to berequired until you show up to
the closing and that getsimplemented a lot at the local
(33:11):
level or some states have theserules, but it's an issue because
the realtor lobby, you know,the folks selling properties,
are concerned that this is goingto decrease the value of the
property.
And so as I have theconversation about flood
disclosure, I always go.
I always go towards why Well, Idon't want to disclose it
(33:35):
because then it's going todecrease the property.
That why?
Well, because then people willknow they have to buy foot
insurance.
Okay, so you don't want theperson buying it to know what
they're buying.
And it's really hard for themto backpedal away from that
conversation Because the, at theend of the day, whether it
(33:57):
hurts property value, it reducesthe amount of sales.
It always lands on If theperson buying it new, they pay
less, they may not buy it.
They be informed and I stand upat city commission meetings and
when people push back they,they will not say that out loud,
(34:18):
and so it quickly changes theconversation.
Well, why can't?
George Siegal (34:23):
and I think we discussed this when I was with
you in person.
Why can't there be car factsreports for houses that are
really extensive?
Because if my car floods and Igo to try to dump it off on my
neighbor, they can at least lookat that car facts report and
they're going to know why.
Why isn't there that kind ofregistry?
That should be an absolute nobrainer.
Del Schwalls (34:44):
Well it it should be.
But then you've got the theother side that's pushing back
against it, because Once again,if you know, my house flooded.
It's going to be harder for meto sell it and also there's a
lot of well and we should.
But then there's the politicalpressure, but there's also a lot
(35:04):
of data needed for that andthere's a cost associated with
it.
And really, george, one thing Ithink we forget is that we are
often over educated beyond whatwe take action on anyway.
I had somebody say years agoyou know, we're educated beyond
our own obedience.
So if I give you more data, ifyou're not using the data you
(35:31):
have now, why would I expect youto use it if I give you more
data?
George Siegal (35:36):
Well, I think with a house, I think with a
house it could stay with alittle more, especially the
Zillow or one of those placesPicked it up.
I mean, sure, I understand youwant to sell houses, but that
doesn't mean it's a free-for-all, that you should be able to say
, well, let's just let thesepeople screw the next person.
I mean that it's got to stopsomewhere.
And I think every house shouldhave a permanent record.
You know, if I go shootsomebody, that's going on my
(35:59):
permanent record.
Del Schwalls (36:00):
I think houses need that and I 100% agree and I
wish we had that for sure.
It's finding the political willto get it across the finish
line and to get it actuallypassed in the legislation.
And that's the bout, that.
That's the battle there,because you always have somebody
saying, well, you're hurting,you're hurting my ability to
sell it.
And of course it spins to thewell, you don't want somebody to
(36:23):
know the risk.
It's that back-and-forthconversation.
So I'm with you 100%.
I wish we had a house factsthat had a.
History.
George Siegal (36:33):
I agree and not to go off on some rant, but I
think anything that relies onpoliticians getting something
done, we're completely screwedbecause, as we learned, as we're
learning when we're talkingmaking this film, the lobbying
efforts that go on up there, thefact that almost everybody that
when you read stories aboutpeople that got into politics to
be Public servants and they endleaving the office and they're
so wealthy, I mean somehow thesystem is not working really
(36:56):
good.
Del Schwalls (36:57):
Yeah, well, I'm on the board of directors for the
Florida floodplain managersassociation and we're the
Florida chapter.
There's a national associationof state footplay managers and
almost every state has a statefootplay manager chapter, and so
one of our jobs is to educatethe elected officials and
educate the, the folks inTallahassee, on legislation
(37:20):
because, like you said, thelobbyists they're such a
powerhouse and such deep pockets, and so one of the benefits of
this organization with FFMA, isthat we can we don't lobby, we
educate and we're trying to helpthe, the folks, push in the
laws, see the unden, unintendedconsequences of that legislation
(37:42):
and how it affects their, theircitizens, which is tricky.
George Siegal (37:47):
I've met so many Really interesting people that
are floodplain managers, been tosome conferences and everything
, and I think you guys do agreat job.
How can we turn you intolobbyists?
Okay, let's get you guys upthere to start paying people off
, because you'll be doing it forus.
You'll be on the right side ofit well, and we're trying, and
the well.
Del Schwalls (38:07):
The number one thing for lobbyists is funding.
You know, I mean, where do you,how do you fund that kind of
effort?
But also, once you step acrossinto the lobbying realm, you can
lose credibility, because ifI'm pushing something for an
entity with an agenda that'svery different than we're a
(38:29):
nonprofit organization Sharingeducation and and we really do
we we dance the line of lobbying.
Because, you know, with ournonprofit status, we're not
allowed to do any lobbying andso we're just trying to educate
the elected officials.
But our goal, my goal, would befor us to be at the table.
You know we have a flood issue.
(38:51):
Let's call the floodplainmanagement association and ask
their input, ask their questions, to help drive that
conversation.
George Siegal (38:59):
Absolutely that.
Everybody should be tappinginto you guys as a resource, and
even people moving to acommunity.
They should call down to the,to the city, and find out who
the floodplain manager is andask them questions.
Del Schwalls (39:09):
Yeah, that's.
One of my favorite things isour executive director will send
us an email because I'm on theboard and say Random, homeowner
Suzy Smith just emailed us andsaid I found you online, I'm
buying a property, I want yourinput and it's such a great
feeling to see that we're.
We're getting out there, or theFEMA will refer them to us.
(39:30):
Occasionally We'll referdevelopers and property owners
to us, but we're and we're alimited resource.
There's always so many peoplein an organization so we can
only do so much, but we'retrying.
George Siegal (39:42):
I think it's because of me, because I'm
telling everybody now.
So three or four more peopleknow and they're all gonna do
something.
But hey, del, thank you for thework that you do.
Thanks for being in the film.
I appreciate you doing thepodcast.
How can people get in touchwith you or follow you?
Any social media or any goodway to get to reach out to you?
Del Schwalls (40:01):
Yeah, I'm a D Schwalls is my LinkedIn, you can
follow me there and I think thebest way go to FL floods, to
Florida FL floods, and that isthe FFMA website and I'm on the
board of directors and anyresources you need.
Are there any contact?
And we have 1100 members acrossthe state of Florida, most of
(40:24):
which are community officials,and so if you want information
about your local community andthe flood risk Odds are, your
local floodplain manager is partof our organization.
But, yeah, definitely reach outand just get informed.
You cannot be Overly informedwhen you're buying property in
Florida, because if you're inFlorida, you're in a floodplain
(40:46):
Period.
If where it rains, it can flood, if you can see the river, if
you can see the ocean, you cansee the lake, you can get wet.
George Siegal (40:55):
Well, thank you for getting me nervous way
before hurricane season, buteverybody needs to know this
stuff.
I mean, it's not always fun tohear it, but it's important to
hear it.
Del Schwalls (41:04):
Absolutely, and I think I also mentioned Gilbert
white, who was kind of thefather of floodplain management.
He had one of my favoritequotes by him.
He said Nature doesn't causedisasters, nature causes events.
It's only a disaster whenpeople get in the way.
And I think with floodplainmanagement that's a really
(41:28):
accurate statement.
The floodplain is gonna floodand if nobody's there to get
damaged, we don't call it adisaster, we call it an event.
And so, looking at thefloodplain, recognizing it's
supposed to flood, and how canwe use that as part of our
community and let it do whatit's supposed to do, rather than
trying to Dry out thefloodplain?
All right, hey, del greatadvice.
George Siegal (41:53):
Thank you so much .
Appreciate your time.
Thanks, george, enjoy beingwith you.
Del Schwalls (41:55):
If you have a story about your house, good or
bad.
I'd like to hear from you.
George Siegal (42:02):
There's a contact form in the show notes.
Fill it out and send it my way.
You might be a guest on anupcoming episode.
Thanks again for taking thetime to listen today.
I'll see you next time.
Today we're tackling a topic that many of us
might not think about untilit's too late the risk of
flooding.
It's a common threat and it'simportant to talk about not just
the dangers, but also thesolutions.
Have you ever considered howyou would protect your home from
rising waters?
Today we're going deep intowhat it means to be prepared.
We'll discuss how taking actionnow can save a lot of heartache
(00:23):
and loss in the future.
My guest is Del Schwalls, aseasoned flood plane management
consultant from Florida.
In addition to years ofexpertise, Del also has a very
personal experience.
His family's home was heavilydamaged by Hurricane Michael.
He's seen firsthand whathappens when a community is hit
hard and the tough rebuildingthat follows.
He's here to share his insightson why it's crucial to build
(00:46):
homes that can withstand floods.
We'll explore the tough choiceshomeowners face.
Do you ignore the advice andhope for the best, or do you
take steps to make your homesafe?
Del's story is about learningfrom the past to build a better
future.
He knows the importance ofgetting a community on board
with higher building standardsthat can prevent such disasters
(01:08):
from happening again.
I'm George Siegal, and this isHome Owners Be Aware the podcast
that teaches you everything youneed to know about being a
homeowner.
Del.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
Del Schwalls (01:21):
Thanks, george, we'll be here.
George Siegal (01:23):
What part of the country are you in as I'm
speaking to you?
Del Schwalls (01:26):
I'm in sunny Orlando Florida.
George Siegal (01:28):
Very nice, Alright, not too far from Tampa
Now.
I met you when we wereinterviewing you for the
documentary film I'm makingBuilt to Last Buyer.
Beware and I know you're afloodplain manager, you're a
floodplain expert.
When people hear that theydon't always understand what
that is, Tell us exactly what afloodplain manager is.
Del Schwalls (01:50):
Well, it's a thousand different hats
depending on who you're talkingto, but in general, we're
looking at ways to manage theflood risk, so reducing flood
damage, looking at how newthings are built in the flood
risk area and making surethey're built correctly.
Managing the natural functionsof the floodplain, so ensuring
(02:14):
we're actually using thefloodplain for what it's
designed to be, which is flooded.
It's not called a dry plane,it's called a floodplain for a
reason, and so essentiallyworking through how human
interaction with a naturalfloodplain happens, and whether
(02:38):
it be building infrastructure orjust natural functions.
George Siegal (02:43):
Yeah, people really need to understand how
important that is, and I thought, well, maybe we'd get a few
good things out of you.
We could have turned this intothe Dell movie, because you had
so many interesting things tosay and, in particular, about
Mexico Beach, because I madeanother documentary there after
Hurricane Michael in 2018.
And I was so hopeful that theywould take that storm, use it as
(03:03):
an example and then really dothings better.
But it hasn't turned out thatway.
Tell people the way it's goingup there.
Del Schwalls (03:11):
Well, it started that way and I think there were
some really good intentionsinitially after the storms.
But hindsight is 20-20 until youstop looking at the past and I
think the memory got short.
And so, whereas right after thestorm the city did look at
(03:35):
building safer and it wasn'tabandoned ship, which a lot of
people would say would be theway to go you have a 14-foot
wave come through part of yourtown.
You know it's definitely partof the conversation, but it was
looking at what's a higherstandard, a more resilient
standard to rebuild, and theydid for a while, and then
(03:58):
political pressure came in andit's more expensive.
That conversation came in, ofcourse, and eventually the
elected officials step back andlowered the standards again,
which is really dishearteningfor somebody like me who not
only am I in this industry but Ihave a vested stake in this
(04:20):
community because I have familyand friends who either have
vacation houses there or livetheir year-round.
And to see the short memory gofrom building higher to allowing
somebody who had a 14-foot wavecome to their house to rebuild
six inches off the ground ishard to stomach.
George Siegal (04:41):
I can imagine and it's not like you're just some
guy sitting in Tallahassee whosays this is what you have to do
.
Like you said, you have avested interest in that
community.
Your mom lives there.
You want that to succeed andthey had you as a resource which
I would think they would havewanted to take advantage of, and
it didn't sound like they tookfull advantage of what could
(05:01):
have been some incredibly goodadvice.
Del Schwalls (05:04):
Well, yeah, so I was a I guess, a free resource
initially.
I was a stakeholder in therecovery process, helping my
parents navigate the recoveryprocess, a lot of friends and
family.
So right after HurricaneMichael I was part of the Mexico
Beach Facebook group and I justthrew my name out and said, hey
(05:25):
, I'm in this industry, I'mhappy to help anybody go through
the process and explore things.
And then I was watching a lotof the conversations.
I was talking to some of thestaff.
I actually had one of the cityattorneys reach out to me and
asked me questions.
A city commissioner reached outto me and we had an hour-long
conversation about newregulations and what to do and
(05:49):
how to implement that.
But I guess the moreinformation I shared, the less
popular some of that informationwas.
And yeah, I definitely was notpart of the full conversation.
George Siegal (06:10):
By the end we'll say yeah, because people might
ask questions, but they alreadyhave figured out what they want
to hear back from you and thenif they don't like the answer,
it can be very frustrating forthem.
Now I had never been to MexicoBeach until after Michael, so I
didn't see what it looked likein its original stage.
But I imagine along the beachsome houses were elevated, some
(06:30):
were not based on what washedaway.
Now it looks like everythingclose to the water is being
elevated.
So where are they reallyfalling apart in this process
and just not going up highenough?
Del Schwalls (06:43):
Well, we've got a little bit of state regulation
that's overruling, kind of whatthe city would do if they had
their preference.
So a lot of the homes that werethere before were built in the
50s or 40s or even earlier,before the flood maps were
established, before the floodregulations and before some of
(07:04):
the state close to erosionregulations.
So most of those houses wereslab on grade homes and the
elevated homes are going to bemore of your modern, your more
recent development.
But you've got the coastalconstruction control line, the
CCCL, which runs through about.
It's just seaword of Highway 98, which runs down the middle of
(07:26):
Mexico Beach, and so anythingseaword of that has to be built
up higher regardless of thelocal regulations, and so that
kind of overrides it.
And so a lot of those you'reseeing that are built up higher
since the last year and a halfare going to be built because
the state requires it, ccclrequires it, whereas the city's
(07:49):
regulations say if you're in thehundred-year flood zone you
only have to be a foot and ahalf above FEMA's number, and
the state minimum is a footabove.
So it's only six inches higherthan the same requirement in
Orlando, which is not going tohave a way to come through it.
George Siegal (08:07):
Now, and can you if you're on the water side of
the highway?
So are you saying you're notallowed to go as low as 18
inches off the street, or, ifyou're right by the highway,
it's okay to be that low?
Del Schwalls (08:19):
Well, the coastal construction line runs a long
parallel to the highway but itdoesn't hit all the houses.
For example, it hits myparents' house which is four
houses from the ocean, but itwon't catch some of the other
neighbors.
So to answer the question, Iguess more directly, the state
(08:43):
says you have to be elevated,but for the city regulations,
some of those homes that arejust next to Highway 98, that
are four houses from the ocean,they can be built 18 inches
above the ground.
George Siegal (08:59):
Wow, that would.
That would be a veryquestionable choice.
I would think to to dosomething like that.
And another thing you said thatwas really interesting and I
think this can apply to peoplethat live anywhere Is when you
understand the flood zone thatyou're in, in the neighborhood
that you're in, and some peoplego, yeah, block over there in
the flood zone, but I'm not.
That's really a false sense ofconfidence on where water is
(09:21):
going to stop if all hell breaks, lose and there's a massive
flooding event.
So why are people so cavalierabout those?
Del Schwalls (09:28):
Well, I think one of the things we do in the
floodplain management community,and especially the communities
themselves, is we use the wordflood zone to mean floodplain,
and they are not the same wordat all.
Flood zone is an area that'sbeen mapped by somebody to
quantify a certain risk, usuallyrelated to Protecting an
(09:53):
investment of insurance.
So if I'm going to insure yourproperty, you have to at least
do this minimal and.
But floods don't read maps, andso the idea that a arbitrary
line on the we're not arbitrary,it's based on data, is based on
analysis.
But the idea that a line on themap drone at the county level
(10:14):
of resolution is going to informa flood and and it doesn't
quite pass the sniff test.
And Once you start talking withsomebody about this and the
logic of it, they usuallyrecognize oh well, of course,
the floods not gonna behave likethe map says.
(10:35):
But we forget that immediatelywhen we start actually doing
things.
We honestly like the generalIndividual who's either building
a house choosing whether theybuy flood insurance or the
community regulating it.
We behave as if the floodsgoing to stop at a line because
we drew it on a map.
George Siegal (10:56):
Couldn't people actually see that as an
opportunity?
So if, if, if you're a blockaway from the flood zone and
you're not marked as a as a as ahigher risk, you probably get
flood insurance for less money,then the people that are in that
zone and, and the bottom lineis, anybody that lives anywhere
in those areas in fact anybodyanywhere Probably wants to have
flood insurance.
Del Schwalls (11:18):
Well, under the previous FEMA flood insurance
rating system, in or out of thatflood zone would translate to a
cheaper flood insurance policy.
However, under the new system,the analysis ignores the flood
zones.
So even FEMA has recognizedthat the binary in versus out
(11:41):
Category doesn't work forflooding protection.
George Siegal (11:47):
So the days of scoring a great deal are gone.
So, like all those people fromHurricane Harvey that were near
the dam but they weren't in aflood area, now they would, in
theory, have to pay a lot moreto have flood insurance there,
or is that?
How does that work?
Del Schwalls (11:59):
well, the Assessed flood insurance premium is now
at the higher level, but if youalready had flood insurance at
the lower level, you're on aglide path to get there, so that
anybody knew now is going to bepaying more.
Absolutely so they still should.
George Siegal (12:18):
They still should think about having it.
Del Schwalls (12:20):
Well, absolutely.
You know.
It's like my parents.
My mom said they weren't goingto get flood insurance because
they were in the X zone, and Ivery quickly Informed her they
were going to get floodinsurance, and then a 14 foot
wave came through the house, andso you.
I've had a lot of conversationswith homeowners on barrier
(12:40):
islands.
They can see the ocean and theycomplain that 900 a year in
flood insurance is just tooexpensive.
And it seems too expensive whenyou're used to paying 500 a
year.
But when you're on a barrierisland, the risk is in the word
it's a barrier to the hurricanes.
And then you start talkingabout Somebody's risk near the
(13:07):
ocean versus somebody's risk inthe middle of Kansas, 20 miles
from a river.
Should you be paying the samething for flood insurance?
Probably not.
George Siegal (13:19):
I've just heard so many stories of people in
other parts of the country that,because of construction in the
area, the town to the north ofthem, things change, the
dynamics change and all of asudden, water is now a problem
for them.
And you really have to be soaware, not just of your
situation but the entiresituation around you.
Del Schwalls (13:40):
Yeah, so back in the 70s, when the FEMA flood
regulations first gotestablished, after Hurricane
Donna really triggered the needfor a national flood insurance
program, the idea of planningfor the future conditions is
embedded in the regulations.
It's a federal requirement.
Nobody follows it and FEMAdoesn't enforce it.
(14:02):
So when we started thisconversation, fema said, yes,
you have to look at the future.
What's the ultimate developmentgoing to be?
But I guess it's hard to manage.
It's expensive, it's veryadministratively challenging.
So it got thrown out the windowvery quickly and there's not a
lot of communities that actuallyenforce that federal regulation
(14:22):
and FEMA's not requiring itmost of the time.
George Siegal (14:27):
That seems kind of contrary to being proactive
about disasters.
Isn't it a lot cheaper to thinkabout it on the front end than
to clean up on the back end?
Del Schwalls (14:36):
It is, and I'm definitely not trying to throw
FEMA under the bus.
You know FEMA's a very smallword to describe a giant group
of people.
At the end of the day, you havelimited resources and where are
we going to spend thoseresources?
But yeah, it is much more costeffective to prevent the damage
than repairing it later.
Out of all the analysis and thereports that have looked at
(14:59):
this, some say for every dollaryou spend preventing the damage,
you save six on recovering.
And even the most low estimatesay $1 saves four.
And so it's extremelybeneficial financially to keep
the damage from happening.
George Siegal (15:19):
And then we talked to another gentleman in
Mexico Beach who was we talkedto him out on the street looking
up at all the houses that arebeing elevated, but they're
being made out of wood, and hethought they should all be built
like the house we featured inthe last house, standing out of
some type of block reinforcementnot wood, and not just because
(15:39):
of of flooding but because ofwind.
And he said when you'reelevating these wood structures
now, the higher you go, thestronger the wind is.
So he thought they might bemore dangerous now that they're
elevated than they were atground level.
Del Schwalls (15:53):
Well, sometimes they can be and there is a
benefit to having a little bitof movement.
You know it's like when youbuild a bridge.
You don't build a bridge to berock solid it needs to move with
the wind.
That makes it safer, so thebuilding materials may have
something like that.
I'm not a structural engineerso don't quote me on that, but
(16:16):
you know it's funny.
With the last house standingconversation at the National
Flood Conference for ASFPMseveral years ago, that house
came up a lot right afterHurricane Michael and some of
those storms and there was areally big mixed emotion about
it because a lot of the designprofessionals in the flood world
(16:38):
were saying we don't want tocommunicate the idea of build a
tank on the beach and you'refine, especially with sea level
rise and climate change comingabout, because you can build
something that will withstand it.
But does it make sense to spend$9 per dollar you could have to
(17:03):
build that tank or wouldanother option be warranted?
George Siegal (17:09):
Yeah, we did see some impressive construction
over in Panama City where theyhave the tie downs from the
foundation to the first floor tothe second floor.
It's all connected.
It's all pretty tight.
But I've had people tell me,yeah, but if there's a category
five hurricane, that's not goingto do as well as a concrete
block house would.
But a gentleman I interviewedin the last house standing, hank
(17:31):
Ovinck, talked about how muchcan you bunker your community?
How much can people, willpeople spend?
So maybe they're doing it right.
I guess we won't know until thenext disaster and you never
really want to find out that way, because then it's too late.
Del Schwalls (17:45):
Yeah, well, and it's the idea of what's
acceptable risk.
We looked at.
You know, hurricane Michaelcame through Mexico Beach with a
14 foot deep wave.
Do you build everything inMexico Beach 14 feet off the
ground?
Well, that would protect youfrom a Michael.
But a mile and a half down theroad there wasn't even ocean on
(18:08):
the ground in some areas.
So do we want to protect from aHurricane Michael 14 foot wave,
or is there a lower level toprotect, to knowing that if a
big one hits, we're going to getdamaged?
But we're going to accept thatrisk.
You know it's how many.
How many donuts do you eat foryour health?
(18:29):
Well, there's an acceptableamount of risk for the enjoyment
of that extra donut.
And so I think that's part ofthe conversation is what is the
acceptable risk?
Because we can't protecteverything.
George Siegal (18:39):
Well, if I saw you stuff in your face with
donuts and I'm sitting rightnext to you and then I see you
have a heart attack and die, Imight think twice about eating
donuts.
Exactly yes.
Del Schwalls (18:49):
But in reality, you know, I've got family.
Well, I won't go down theserabbit trails because they have,
but yeah, it's a very validstatement.
George Siegal (19:01):
So when you look at your mom's house as an
example, it was elevated, but itgot a lot of water inside.
What was that like afterMichael?
Del Schwalls (19:10):
Well.
So there were a couple ofperfect storm conditions going
on with her house as well.
So the house was built at ahigher standard because the
original person who built itwanted to, so it's elevated.
The bottom level was breakwaywalls, so when the waves came
through, it pushed out thestairwell walls without pushing
(19:32):
the building over, which isgreat.
That's what it's designed to doand they had hurricane shutters
which kept the wind and therain out.
The problem is is, once thatbottom level got pushed out,
then the wind got in, went upthe stairwell and pushed the
shutters out from the inside,and so then the rain driven
(19:52):
water got in from top to bottom,and so, while the structure,
the envelope, was still standingabout the end of it, the whole
thing had to be gutted, thewater sealant drywall pulled out
down to the rafters and to thestuds.
George Siegal (20:08):
And how long, how many years did it take to get
it back to normal?
Del Schwalls (20:14):
A year and a half, I think they got the CO, I
believe in April of 2020.
George Siegal (20:23):
Okay now I was interviewing a gentleman the
other day.
We were talking about that woodconstruction that they do up in
the panhandle and he said hisbiggest concern is not
necessarily the wind worryingabout it Like you say, you can't
always plan for the worst kindof disaster but because it's
there's so much wood when waterdoes get in.
We have a huge termite problemIn the state of Florida and you
get that decay around windowsand in parts of the wall and
(20:46):
then the structure iscompromised Because that wood is
now deteriorating and has beendevoured by termites.
And he said that's actually abigger risk.
Del Schwalls (20:56):
Yeah, it's, it's all part of that, that
conversation, because one pieceof damage opens it up to more,
just like the wind damage openedit up to rain Water damage.
Well, now you got rotting woods, you have mold and you have
deteriorating woods, so you havetermites and and, and, so it's
definitely a combination there.
(21:17):
If you can stop one, you canstop the other, and a lot of
times yeah, we're probablyrequires a lot of maintenance.
George Siegal (21:24):
Yesterday I interviewed the, the CEO of the
Tampa Housing Authority, and itwas really fascinating to see
all the new homes they'rebuilding For people that are
concrete.
They're only building concreteapartment complexes, whereas a
mile away from them, for therest of the population, they're
building wood Apartmentcomplexes.
So it's like somebody has itfigured out and somebody's just
(21:47):
ripe for a disaster.
Del Schwalls (21:50):
Yeah, well, and if you were talking to, let's say,
the average homeowner in MexicoBeach, their first response is
gonna be well, we had concreteblock homes on Mexico Beach and
those all got washed away.
Of course, they were slab ongrade with no rebar connecting
everything.
And so the anytime the one sizefits all kind of blanket
(22:12):
statement comes into into aconversation about flood
resiliency, it very quicklycommunicates the wrong message.
You know, wood versus concrete?
Well, there's some areas wherea Wood structure might be that,
but the, the tie-down, theconnection points the foundation
to the piles, to the walls, tothe roof.
(22:34):
Spreading out that force of thehurricane wind or even the
flood waters across the entirestructure is always Beneficial.
And then what is myconstruction Material comes into
play as part of thatconversation.
George Siegal (22:53):
Did you get a chance to get out to Panama City
and see the house that tippedover in the tornado in January?
Del Schwalls (22:59):
I did not there's a.
George Siegal (23:01):
That's amazing.
We went over there and gotvideo of that.
I mean it says second time it'shappened to that house.
There's a row of houses on thebeach there and with the same
house tipped over.
That happened several years agoand it was just that one house.
Everything else was fine, andThen behind that, where that
tornado hit, an entire block ofhomes that were apartments older
(23:23):
buildings were completelydestroyed by by a tornado.
And I interviewed Roy Wright,who's an expert on resiliency
and how to build things theright way Because of the studies
that they do with hisorganization, and he said newer
structures, structures that arebuilt right, wouldn't have that
with your Regular tornadoes,that there are things we have
(23:43):
the technology to build better,but the older structures are
going to be vulnerable and thenpoor construction is always
going to be vulnerable.
Del Schwalls (23:52):
Yeah, and it's funny, I was talking to a
gentleman in Centabel who had ahouse there, house from the
1800s.
His family's been in theirfamily for you know, generations
and during one of thehurricanes that house was
literally picked up.
It's a two-story house.
Wood frame construction waspicked up and moved I don't know
(24:14):
two or three houses down.
The entire thing was intact.
It was a very strongly built,you know, a Very strongly built.
You know old hardwood timberConstruction and so all they did
was go in and put Tim rollingtimbers under it and roll it
back into place.
(24:35):
And Because that's what theydid back in the 1800s, because
they knew the waves are gonnacome, but nowadays a house like
that would have been completely,you know, destroyed by the
water.
George Siegal (24:48):
Yeah.
Dynamic that is you boy.
If you have a chance to lookthat up or Google it in Panama
City, I mean, it's reallyunbelievable and it's even more
stunning to see it in person.
It almost looks like a set oftoy houses and then one is just
knocked over, but unfortunatelythat's somebody's life.
That's there.
That's a lot of money it'sgonna take to fix that and the
fact that it's happened twice.
(25:09):
Good luck selling that housenow.
Del Schwalls (25:11):
Yeah, well, I gave a presentation on the Mexico
Beach recovery at the Australianfloodplain conference this past
year and One of the examples Iuse is a homeowner in Mexico
Beach had a four-story home, butthe picture I show you is a
two-story house, completelyintact.
It's a blue house.
(25:32):
We're like well, what happenedhere?
And you don't realize thatthose two stories that are on
the ground are story numberthree and four of the house that
was Two blocks away.
It's a.
During the hurricane Michael itwashed out the bottom two and
somehow Took the third andfourth story and just floated it
(25:52):
along and set it down and thewhole thing was intact.
It was just.
It was the head, not the body.
George Siegal (25:58):
You know, I've always wondered why people
choose some of the colors thatyou do to paint their house.
Maybe because it's easier tofind it once it blows away.
You know, we're chuckling aboutit, but it's so heartbreaking
when you see it.
It's like we used to go toSanta Belle Island every year
and it's just devastating whathappened there.
They have such a long road torecovery.
(26:18):
It's just.
Del Schwalls (26:19):
It's really sad to see yeah, and I think one of
the problems with the wholeflood recovery industry in
general is it it's such a soundbite today that's gone tomorrow.
If you talk to people aboutMexico Beach today, they may say
, oh yeah, that was that cityfrom years ago, I think.
(26:40):
But yeah, they're fine nowbecause nobody's really paying
attention, just like Panama Cityor Fort Myers Beach.
Those areas, once it's past theheadlines, we kind of forget
about it.
And the practical applicationof that is that we often forget
to continue to learn the lessonsthat nature has already taught
(27:01):
us, and so we memory is short.
George Siegal (27:05):
Yeah, when you hear the term and I've heard so
many people say this when I'veinterviewed them or talked to
the people in the community Well, maybe this will serve as a
wake-up call.
I kind of feel we shouldalready be awake.
We have the technology to knowwe can do it better.
We can all see video of whathappened to kind of relive it.
Why do we continue to make thesame mistakes?
Del Schwalls (27:27):
Yeah, well, and I think that's a universal truth
and the wake-up call.
We see plenty of them, but itwon't happen to me.
And then when it does happen toyou, it doesn't always change
behavior.
You know if.
If you have a heart attack, doyou immediately go healthy.
If you have a lung cancer scare, do you immediately stop
(27:47):
smoking?
So those kind of sameconnections.
If my neighbor flooded, doesthat mean I'm gonna abandon any
area that could flood?
George Siegal (27:59):
Yes, yes and yes.
Del Schwalls (28:01):
It should and it.
George Siegal (28:02):
You know that what it Excuse me.
What is true is we only seewhat the media covers.
It's like we stayed in a placeand we were up there Fort St Joe
.
I had never heard of that.
I didn't know they even existedwhen, because all the focus was
Mexico Beach.
They were wiped out pretty badtoo, and it's just.
There's so many areas that younever hear about.
(28:24):
But they're living a very sadexistence now or a long road of
recovery because they weren'tproperly prepared.
Del Schwalls (28:34):
Yeah, there's a lot of areas like that that they
don't make the sizzle reel onthe weather channel or they're
one video versus all the othersand and so we overlook it.
And you know it's like when youknow some of these smaller
communities get hit with withthe hurricanes and the storm
(28:56):
surges, they just if they're notas well known of a name or it
doesn't grab somebody in a soundbite, we kind of overlook them.
You know there's a county northof Panama City that has been
fighting, flooding, ever sinceHurricane Michael and the entire
county has had issues with.
(29:18):
You know, before Michael, noreal, real big flooding problems
and every since then, becauseof the way the storm Demolish
the tree inventory so there'sless trees, drinking groundwater
, so when it rains the waterstays, and even some things we
don't understand.
There are Areas that used to befields that have been a lake
(29:40):
every since Michael and it goesdown a little bit and it comes
back up.
So you have people that havebeen in these areas for
generations, never had anystanding water and now their
entire yard has been a lake fortwo and a half years.
Well, that's rough that and andthey and they cry out for help,
and they raised their hands forhelp, but nobody pays attention.
(30:01):
Because if I said the county,you'd say, well, I've never even
heard of that place.
George Siegal (30:07):
Yeah, if it doesn't, if it doesn't get in
the spotlight, it's very hard toTo have it change.
What is the what's the takeawayhere, then, for people?
When you're trying to pick aplace to live, you're trying to
make a good decision.
How can you best positionyourself to not become a flood
victim?
Del Schwalls (30:27):
Well, wait, before I jump into that, I do want to
mention that County.
I'm talking about WashingtonCounty.
I wasn't gonna mention theirname, but they, their name
doesn't get mentioned enough.
So I will say that thatcommunity, that County, has been
hurting ever since Michael andthey need to be a little more
focused on.
But as far as when you buy ahome, being informed and not
(30:49):
trusting somebody else to tellyou what you need to know.
And this came up in in Orlandowhen Hurricane Irma came through
, your hurricane Ian camethrough, the whole city was
under water, basically at times.
And and everybody's runningaround in Orlando thinking how
is this possible?
How is this possible?
I was talking to my friends,parents, who were standing on
(31:12):
their street and the three lakesin the neighborhood were all
one giant lake.
And her mom said I cannotbelieve the waters is high.
And I said well, the FEMAfootmap show this is where it's
supposed to be or where it'sgoing to be.
And she was so surprised thatthere was a map showing this
(31:32):
level of inundation.
And so they've lived there fordecades.
But the idea that when we make apurchase, we're trusting the
person selling us the propertyto disclose all the risk, that,
first of all, is a little naive,because there's a conflict of
(31:54):
interest in the person sellingyou something and and them
telling you all the problemswith that thing, because there's
a concern that's going to hurtthe property value, and even
relying on the realtor who'shelping us buy it.
They only have a certain levelof expertise and most realtors
are not fluent in flood, even ina state like Florida, and so,
(32:19):
as a homeowner looking to buysomething, you've got to make
sure you're you're trusting,you're not just relying on big
brother to tell you everythingthat you need to know, and so
really doing a lot of research.
George Siegal (32:34):
You ever play the game hot potato when you were
growing up, where you justthat's that's what a lot of it
seems like owning houses aroundhere is it's like, well, I'll
just toss it to the next personand make it their problem.
Somebody's got to put theirfoot down and say this isn't
safe.
Del Schwalls (32:47):
Yeah, when that gets into the, the flood
disclosure laws.
And this is a huge battlebecause there is no federal
flood insurance requirement ordisclosure requirement or, sorry
, flood damage disclosure oreven a disclosure that flood
insurance is going to berequired until you show up to
the closing and that getsimplemented a lot at the local
(33:11):
level or some states have theserules, but it's an issue because
the realtor lobby, you know,the folks selling properties,
are concerned that this is goingto decrease the value of the
property.
And so as I have theconversation about flood
disclosure, I always go.
I always go towards why Well, Idon't want to disclose it
(33:35):
because then it's going todecrease the property.
That why?
Well, because then people willknow they have to buy foot
insurance.
Okay, so you don't want theperson buying it to know what
they're buying.
And it's really hard for themto backpedal away from that
conversation Because the, at theend of the day, whether it
(33:57):
hurts property value, it reducesthe amount of sales.
It always lands on If theperson buying it new, they pay
less, they may not buy it.
They be informed and I stand upat city commission meetings and
when people push back they,they will not say that out loud,
(34:18):
and so it quickly changes theconversation.
Well, why can't?
George Siegal (34:23):
and I think we discussed this when I was with
you in person.
Why can't there be car factsreports for houses that are
really extensive?
Because if my car floods and Igo to try to dump it off on my
neighbor, they can at least lookat that car facts report and
they're going to know why.
Why isn't there that kind ofregistry?
That should be an absolute nobrainer.
Del Schwalls (34:44):
Well it it should be.
But then you've got the theother side that's pushing back
against it, because Once again,if you know, my house flooded.
It's going to be harder for meto sell it and also there's a
lot of well and we should.
But then there's the politicalpressure, but there's also a lot
(35:04):
of data needed for that andthere's a cost associated with
it.
And really, george, one thing Ithink we forget is that we are
often over educated beyond whatwe take action on anyway.
I had somebody say years agoyou know, we're educated beyond
our own obedience.
So if I give you more data, ifyou're not using the data you
(35:31):
have now, why would I expect youto use it if I give you more
data?
George Siegal (35:36):
Well, I think with a house, I think with a
house it could stay with alittle more, especially the
Zillow or one of those placesPicked it up.
I mean, sure, I understand youwant to sell houses, but that
doesn't mean it's a free-for-all, that you should be able to say
, well, let's just let thesepeople screw the next person.
I mean that it's got to stopsomewhere.
And I think every house shouldhave a permanent record.
You know, if I go shootsomebody, that's going on my
(35:59):
permanent record.
Del Schwalls (36:00):
I think houses need that and I 100% agree and I
wish we had that for sure.
It's finding the political willto get it across the finish
line and to get it actuallypassed in the legislation.
And that's the bout, that.
That's the battle there,because you always have somebody
saying, well, you're hurting,you're hurting my ability to
sell it.
And of course it spins to thewell, you don't want somebody to
(36:23):
know the risk.
It's that back-and-forthconversation.
So I'm with you 100%.
I wish we had a house factsthat had a.
History.
George Siegal (36:33):
I agree and not to go off on some rant, but I
think anything that relies onpoliticians getting something
done, we're completely screwedbecause, as we learned, as we're
learning when we're talkingmaking this film, the lobbying
efforts that go on up there, thefact that almost everybody that
when you read stories aboutpeople that got into politics to
be Public servants and they endleaving the office and they're
so wealthy, I mean somehow thesystem is not working really
(36:56):
good.
Del Schwalls (36:57):
Yeah, well, I'm on the board of directors for the
Florida floodplain managersassociation and we're the
Florida chapter.
There's a national associationof state footplay managers and
almost every state has a statefootplay manager chapter, and so
one of our jobs is to educatethe elected officials and
educate the, the folks inTallahassee, on legislation
(37:20):
because, like you said, thelobbyists they're such a
powerhouse and such deep pockets, and so one of the benefits of
this organization with FFMA, isthat we can we don't lobby, we
educate and we're trying to helpthe, the folks, push in the
laws, see the unden, unintendedconsequences of that legislation
(37:42):
and how it affects their, theircitizens, which is tricky.
George Siegal (37:47):
I've met so many Really interesting people that
are floodplain managers, been tosome conferences and everything
, and I think you guys do agreat job.
How can we turn you intolobbyists?
Okay, let's get you guys upthere to start paying people off
, because you'll be doing it forus.
You'll be on the right side ofit well, and we're trying, and
the well.
Del Schwalls (38:07):
The number one thing for lobbyists is funding.
You know, I mean, where do you,how do you fund that kind of
effort?
But also, once you step acrossinto the lobbying realm, you can
lose credibility, because ifI'm pushing something for an
entity with an agenda that'svery different than we're a
(38:29):
nonprofit organization Sharingeducation and and we really do
we we dance the line of lobbying.
Because, you know, with ournonprofit status, we're not
allowed to do any lobbying andso we're just trying to educate
the elected officials.
But our goal, my goal, would befor us to be at the table.
You know we have a flood issue.
(38:51):
Let's call the floodplainmanagement association and ask
their input, ask their questions, to help drive that
conversation.
George Siegal (38:59):
Absolutely that.
Everybody should be tappinginto you guys as a resource, and
even people moving to acommunity.
They should call down to the,to the city, and find out who
the floodplain manager is andask them questions.
Del Schwalls (39:09):
Yeah, that's.
One of my favorite things isour executive director will send
us an email because I'm on theboard and say Random, homeowner
Suzy Smith just emailed us andsaid I found you online, I'm
buying a property, I want yourinput and it's such a great
feeling to see that we're.
We're getting out there, or theFEMA will refer them to us.
(39:30):
Occasionally We'll referdevelopers and property owners
to us, but we're and we're alimited resource.
There's always so many peoplein an organization so we can
only do so much, but we'retrying.
George Siegal (39:42):
I think it's because of me, because I'm
telling everybody now.
So three or four more peopleknow and they're all gonna do
something.
But hey, del, thank you for thework that you do.
Thanks for being in the film.
I appreciate you doing thepodcast.
How can people get in touchwith you or follow you?
Any social media or any goodway to get to reach out to you?
Del Schwalls (40:01):
Yeah, I'm a D Schwalls is my LinkedIn, you can
follow me there and I think thebest way go to FL floods, to
Florida FL floods, and that isthe FFMA website and I'm on the
board of directors and anyresources you need.
Are there any contact?
And we have 1100 members acrossthe state of Florida, most of
(40:24):
which are community officials,and so if you want information
about your local community andthe flood risk Odds are, your
local floodplain manager is partof our organization.
But, yeah, definitely reach outand just get informed.
You cannot be Overly informedwhen you're buying property in
Florida, because if you're inFlorida, you're in a floodplain
(40:46):
Period.
If where it rains, it can flood, if you can see the river, if
you can see the ocean, you cansee the lake, you can get wet.
George Siegal (40:55):
Well, thank you for getting me nervous way
before hurricane season, buteverybody needs to know this
stuff.
I mean, it's not always fun tohear it, but it's important to
hear it.
Del Schwalls (41:04):
Absolutely, and I think I also mentioned Gilbert
white, who was kind of thefather of floodplain management.
He had one of my favoritequotes by him.
He said Nature doesn't causedisasters, nature causes events.
It's only a disaster whenpeople get in the way.
And I think with floodplainmanagement that's a really
(41:28):
accurate statement.
The floodplain is gonna floodand if nobody's there to get
damaged, we don't call it adisaster, we call it an event.
And so, looking at thefloodplain, recognizing it's
supposed to flood, and how canwe use that as part of our
community and let it do whatit's supposed to do, rather than
trying to Dry out thefloodplain?
All right, hey, del greatadvice.
George Siegal (41:53):
Thank you so much .
Appreciate your time.
Thanks, george, enjoy beingwith you.
Del Schwalls (41:55):
If you have a story about your house, good or
bad.
I'd like to hear from you.
George Siegal (42:02):
There's a contact form in the show notes.
Fill it out and send it my way.
You might be a guest on anupcoming episode.
Thanks again for taking thetime to listen today.
I'll see you next time.
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