April 9, 2024 • 39 mins
Are you equipped to navigate the maze of hiring a competent plumber or confronting a plumbing issue in your home? This episode dives into the essential world of plumbing, featuring Matt O'Rourke, a veteran with over 25 years of experience in the industry. We will sort out the complexities of plumbing, from understanding the importance of hiring the right person for your specific needs to distinguishing between different types of plumbers and their areas of expertise. This episode is more than just a discussion; it's a toolkit for anyone looking to make informed decisions about plumbing in their home. Whether you're facing a plumbing crisis or planning a new construction, the expertise shared here promises to empower homeowners with the knowledge to tackle plumbing challenges with confidence.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
George Siegal (00:00):
If your house had a plumbing problem, are you
confident you could pick up thephone and get the right person
out to fix it?
If you're building a house, doyou have that same confidence in
the plumbing crew your builderis using?
That raises the question arethere enough qualified plumbers
out there that we can count onat all?
My guest today is Matt O'Rourke.
He's been involved in theplumbing, sewer and drain
(00:22):
industry for more than 25 years.
He's been involved in theplumbing, sewer and drain
industry for more than 25 years.
He's going to take us inside thewalls of your home, giving us
important information that canmake the difference between
success and failure in takingcare of your plumbing issues.
I'm George Siegal, and this isHomeowners Be Aware the podcast
that teaches you everything youneed to know about being a
(00:43):
homeowner.
Matt, thank you so much forjoining me today.
Thank you.
I appreciate the invite.
Now.
Anybody that's ever called aplumber knows you can get a good
person showing up and you canget a bad person showing up.
How important is it to find theright person to do the job?
That's a great question.
Matt O'Rourke (01:02):
And it's a tough one because you really don't
know who you're going to get,and plumbers can range in
different levels of experienceor skill level.
I think the most importantthing you can do is really
communicate what yourexpectations are, you know, is
it water conditioning, waterfiltration, is it hot water?
So that way, the business orservice provider you're calling
(01:26):
can pair you with the plumberthat's the most experienced in
that, and compassion plays a bigrole in it.
If I'm passionate about waterheaters or water filtration or
conditioning, clearly I'm goingto be more experienced and
educated on that specificproduct.
And when you think aboutplumbing, it is huge, right?
(01:46):
I mean, there's a lot involvedin plumbing, different from
faucets to toilets, to drains,to boilers and water heaters.
There's all kinds of differentthings.
So, yeah, I'd really try to beupfront and set expectations of
what you're looking for whenyou're hiring a plumber.
George Siegal (02:03):
Yeah, I think when I've had the worst
experiences is when I've hadsome of those home warranties
where they have somebody thatthey send out and sometimes I've
learned there's a reason thatperson was available for taking
less money for that job andthat's frustrating.
And then the other time is whenyou're building a house, or
even when you buy a house,whoever the builder used to do
(02:25):
their plumbing, that can have amajor effect on how that job
comes out.
Matt O'Rourke (02:28):
Oh, absolutely.
And new construction plumbersare different from service
plumbers.
And then you brought up homewarranty, which is a whole
different animal because, likeyou know I'm going to be honest
they don't get paid very much.
Home warranty companies wantthe problem fixed is for the
lowest cost possible, which isnot always the best thing to do.
George Siegal (02:50):
Yeah, low bid wins is never a good thing, I
think, when it comes to fixingstuff in your house.
Matt O'Rourke (02:54):
It really isn't.
George Siegal (02:55):
I had a friend who was a plumber one time and I
said how do you get away withcharging what you do per hour?
And he looked at me and he goesit's the tools.
Matt O'Rourke (03:03):
He has the right tools to fix things.
Now I know it's a lot more thanthat the tools in the head.
And again, be honest, look atthe expectation of what you're
trying.
If you have a leaking toiletand that's a fairly new toilet
you just need to fix.
That's way different thangetting a new toilet, because I
don't like sending our customersto Home Depot or Lowe's or any
(03:26):
of the box stores you know itdoesn't matter which one and say
, go pick out what you like andI'll install it, because there
are a lot of options out therewith new technologies that for
some, what they have at thosebox stores might not be what you
really are looking for and youneed a plumber that can kind of
explain that and educate you onall the different options that
are out there.
(03:46):
It's like you would never buy acar for one place, right?
You're not going to go to a boxstore and buy a car.
You're going to go and hopethat the salesperson actually
tries to sell you on yourexpectations, your family,
lifestyle, all of those thingsthat play into it.
George Siegal (04:00):
Now having the wrong person and what we've
learned.
Like we have an upstairsbathroom where they didn't put
the seal in right when theyinstalled the toilet, and when
that happens on the second floor, that water has to go someplace
and it ends up on the firstfloor you can have major
problems.
How can a homeowner qualitycontrol those kind of things?
Matt O'Rourke (04:21):
Are you really just at the mercy of whoever the
builder chose?
Well, you are at the mercy, andyou're at the mercy of
marketing, right?
If a business or a plumbingcompany does really good at
marketing, the chances areyou're going to probably find
them first and then you're goingto call them without knowing
who that person is.
I obviously looking at reviews.
Now you know you don't wantsomebody that has all five-star
(04:42):
reviews, because that's probablynot real and we all have issues
, we all have mistakes andsometimes you just want to make
sure that the business or theplumbing company you're hiring
is going to stand behind thework and take care of it no
matter what happens.
But ultimately, don't justabandon and let them do whatever
they want and not check up onthem when they're done.
(05:03):
We take our customers and Iwould recommend a homeowner go
there, flush it three times withthem.
There, you know, have them showyou what they did.
The ones that are going to bereally proud of their work are
going to want to take you andshow you what they did.
If they're not doing that orthey're rushing, then red flags
kind of start to come up.
(05:23):
Right, you know, if I like tosay this to our plumbers educate
the homeowner as a homeowner,if you don't clearly understand
what they did and what you paidfor, that's probably a good
start to a sign that something'snot right you know.
We should be able to educateyou so you understand exactly
what the problem was and what wedid to fix it and ask for
(05:47):
options.
George Siegal (05:47):
You know, because there's always options.
Yeah, those five star reviewsare always sketchy to me.
If there's, if there's too manyof them, it just means you have
a big family and a lot offriends.
I like the two or three star,where the company actually goes
on there and says, well, whatcan we do to make this right for
you?
Or they explain.
Sometimes the customer is justa total a-hole and they're the
problem.
But you'll learn more fromthose.
Matt O'Rourke (06:09):
A hundred percent .
It tells a story right.
So the more you can tell astory about the business you're
hiring.
And again I think it goes backto there are really good
plumbing companies for newconstruction type plumbing.
There are really good companiesthat snake drains and get
sewers open and excavating.
And there's really goodcompanies for water conditioning
(06:30):
and water filtration.
But that doesn't mean the newconstruction plumber is gonna be
able to educate you on waterconditioning and water
filtration or water softeners.
So you really wanna find aplumber that you can trust
that's gonna be open and honestwith you.
When they say you know what,that's not what I'm an expert in
.
Let me find somebody who canhelp you.
And it might be going to amanufacturer, it might be going
(06:52):
to a local wholesaler orplumbing supply store and say,
hey, who do you know that hasinstalled this or who do you
know that can help with that andget some real world industry
guidance or suggestions as faras that goes.
George Siegal (07:09):
So the person who fixes a drain or a clogged
toilet is not necessarily theperson I want for my water
softener or the RO system.
Yeah, most likely, not.
Matt O'Rourke (07:18):
Yeah, yeah, they might be great at doing one
thing, but plumbing, again, it'sa huge industry.
They might be great at doingone thing, but plumbing, again,
it's a huge industry.
And you know we, we bring waterin, we take water out dirty
water, heat water condition andfilter water.
And I promise you I'm a masterplumber.
(07:38):
I've been doing this a longtime.
I'd like to think I know quitea bit, but there's no question,
I'm not an expert in all of it.
George Siegal (07:43):
Now, I think women can do anything men can do
.
Why are there not more femaleplumbers?
It seems like it's amale-dominated profession.
Matt O'Rourke (07:51):
So, believe it or not, that is changing.
We have five locations that nowhave female plumbers and
apprentices.
You know, I think the world'schanging.
You know I came in the industryin the 90s and I think when I
grew up, it wasgreat-grandfather, grandfather,
(08:11):
dad, son that's who's going tobe in the trades, going all the
way back from the beginning ofthe United States.
Well then, I think in the 80sit was college, college, college
, college, and then technologycame and I think that broke
right.
So the education piece kind ofstepped in and people, in a way,
(08:32):
almost shamed young people forgoing into the industry or the
trades.
It was like, hey, why aren'tyou going to college?
Hey, why don't you have acollege degree?
I think that hurt the tradesfor a long time.
Um, I think that hurt thetrades for a long time.
Um, well then, fast forward into, you know, covid and people
started really looking at thetrades as, hey, this is an
essential industry, right,people are still working.
(08:54):
Or look at college debt.
You know, I've I've got$150,000 of college debt I got
to pay off and I'm only making50, $60,000 a year coming out of
college with this degree that Iwas told I had to get.
And you know now I think, goingto your question with you know
young women are looking at heywait.
(09:15):
You know what otheropportunities are there besides
that college degree.
And you know, today, equipmentthere's a lot.
You know strength.
All of that is starting tobecome a little bit easier with
all the tools and and especiallyequipment and dollies and all
(09:35):
that good stuff.
So, um, but yeah, I thinkthat's changing.
I think you're going to see achange a lot faster too.
George Siegal (09:41):
Yeah, I think that, um, you know, people
realize they can pay off thatcollege debt with one or two
house calls.
No, I'm kidding, I think that'ssuch an important thing and to
have the right person come out.
And I find, you know, lookingon social media groups, finding
neighbors that have used people,and then when you call, it's
(10:04):
finding somebody that's, as yousay, sends the right person out,
because the wrong person canreally set you back when they
come out and try to do a job,horribly, and I want to be clear
too education is very important.
Matt O'Rourke (10:19):
It's just, how do we educate the young people?
In any career path we're, we'reall at the mercy of, you know,
whatever university you go to orwhatever trade school you go to
, or whatever you know in ourworld the plumber I decided to
join to become an apprentice,for I'm going to learn from that
person.
Well, you know, is that person,have they been educated or how
(10:43):
did they come up in the industry?
Because, more than likely,that's how they're going to
train that young person, right?
Well, you know, there's a lotof math and science in plumbing
and there's a lot of problemsolving.
And then we have to communicatewith homeowners.
You know that alone can be verytricky, right, I'm coming to you
.
I've never met you before.
I'm in your home.
Most times I'm in very personalspaces of your home.
(11:05):
You know bathrooms andbasements and you know, I've
seen the hoarders and I've seenthe.
You know all the differences ofpeople and homeowners.
Well, you know, you have tohave that relationship and you
got to do it rather quickly,right.
Build that trust and get you tolike me so that way I can
communicate appropriately, andso there's a lot that goes into
(11:27):
this stuff.
So you know, when you're hiringsomebody for to do work at your
home, you're now you're a.
You know you're an interviewerright, you're, you're now a
manager, you're hiring people.
And you got to approach it likethat too, because I think the
more for homeowners, the quickeryou can establish that comfort
(11:47):
level between you and thecontractor, the plumber.
George Siegal (11:51):
you're going to be able to get more of the truth
and really understand and bemuch more comfortable and
confident in their abilities hadin businesses that I've run a
lot of times is finding goodpeople, because sometimes your
business is only as good as thepeople that you find.
Is that a challenge for youguys?
Because I know that when I seetrades I live in Tampa, florida,
(12:14):
and some of the people thathave come out here I'm going how
are these people in business?
They either are late for theappointment, they show up and
they give you a bid based onwhat they saw when they drove up
, not necessarily what the jobshould cost.
I mean, there's so many thingsthat can screw it up from a
business perspective.
So how tough is that?
Matt O'Rourke (12:31):
Yeah, it's getting easier, believe it or
not, because again we're gettinga different type of person
that's interested in the trades.
So, like in the past, you'dhave a really good trades person
or mechanical aptitude person,but they were horrible at the
soft skills or the punctuality.
I like to say plumbers, we arefantastic at math and science.
(12:54):
We are all horrible atcomprehension for the most part.
You know no one likes to read.
You know they probably didn'tgo down that road.
But time management you knowthey probably didn't go down
that road, but time managementawful.
You know over-promise andunder-deliver you hear that a
lot.
When I started the business Istarted realizing, you know, my
plumbing skills isn't what Ineed to focus on.
(13:15):
I need to focus on dispatching,time management, scheduling,
marketing.
You know you start to shiftbecause what's the most
important to people?
You know, a lot of timesthrough the years the complaints
weren't you did a horrible jobplumbing.
(13:36):
You didn't show up and you'regoing to say, yeah, but show up.
I took the whole day off work.
You know I waited four hoursfor you.
It took a lot longer than Ithought.
All of those things go into this.
Those reviews again tell you astory.
They charge me too much.
I like to say we're not goingto be your Walmart purse, we're
(13:58):
not going to be your LouisVuitton purse, but you're really
looking for a contractor that'sgoing to be like a coach purse
Not too cheap, not too expensive, but they're going to show up
when they say they're going toshow up.
They're going to do what theysay they're going to do and I
feel, okay, everything was great, the price, eh.
But I don't have any othercomplaints besides that.
You know all A's and maybe a Cin price and I think that's what
(14:22):
you should really be lookingfor.
George Siegal (14:27):
Now friends of mine, my wife included, feel
they're going to get a differentprice if the woman of the house
is home versus the man of thehouse.
They feel like they're going toget taken advantage of.
It's like with mechanics,plumbers, electricians trades.
I'm sure you don't do that, butdoes that go on in the industry
?
You think there's no?
Matt O'Rourke (14:41):
question it does.
Look.
I mean there's two differentways to pay people.
You have commission and thenyou have hourly.
You know, and it's tough, right, because a commission plumber
there's no question, I feel theethics start to come in to some
degree and then an hourlyplumber they might be looking to
(15:02):
take more time.
Now what?
Try to ask enough questionsthat you understand, as a
homeowner, what it is that theplumber is going to be doing and
how much.
For If you understand what'sgoing to be done and the reason
why it has to be done and howmuch it's going to be, know that
(15:23):
before that work starts so youcan approve it, and then you'll
feel comfortable and confidentand don't listen to everybody
else saying, oh, you overpaidfor this or my cousin could have
done it for this price, thatmuch cheaper.
As a homeowner, if you know youhave a plumbing problem, you
want it fixed, and you setexpectations and the work's
completed for an agreed uponprice, then that's a win and I
(15:45):
feel like that's the bestapproach to take this because I
promise you a plumber can charge$50 an hour or $600 an hour.
It really does come down towhat is.
What are you having done atyour home and are you
comfortable with the price youpaid and you understand what was
done with that agreed uponprice.
George Siegal (16:06):
I always love it when someone says my cousin can
do it.
I've had that when I've goneout and bid for video projects
and somebody goes oh, you know,I bid $10,000 for a job one time
and the guy goes well, mycousin said he could do it for a
thousand and I said you want meto match that?
I go.
No, I said, but would you do mea favor and show me that video
when it's done?
I would love to see what thatthousand dollar video is like.
Matt O'Rourke (16:26):
I mean, if you're looking for the lowest price,
cause, you know, for whateverreason, then, just again, I
would say to the plumber as theycome in hey look, you know my
budget's $200.
This is what I'd like to havedone.
Can you do it or not?
(16:47):
And if they say, nope, I'm at$600 and you can't find, you
know, I'm not saying don'tnegotiate, because here's
another thing too.
You know, if you're having aplumber come to your house and
do a small little task, you know, let's just say your bathroom
sink is slow draining, nowthat's probably a pretty easy
(17:08):
fix, right, it's probably just,you know, a bunch of hair or
gunk and we can get that clean.
And you're going to pay ahigher rate just because we
still made the trip out there.
And you know, a lot of companiesmight charge an hour minimum.
But if you say, hey, I want,here's a long laundry list of
things that I'd like to havedone or, you know, this faucet's
leaking, this water heater'snot working, this drain's slow,
(17:31):
I promise you, the more you havedone, it starts to bring that
rate down as far as having.
You know, now we have morethings to do and we could
probably get a couple morethings done in the same amount
of time as it would take us todo something very simple.
So again, I would reallycaution homeowners the more you
can save our time as plumbers bysaying, okay, here's what I got
(17:54):
, here's our budget.
There's nothing wrong with withkind of negotiating that Cause
plumbing isn't like hey, here'sa you know, a pound of
strawberries and it costs $8.
You know it.
it really is it's fair to benegotiating.
You know to some degree, butyeah, never hurts to ask.
(18:15):
You're comparing apples toapples.
Did I come to you on a Saturdayon time and show up and you
know professional and I'm goingto protect your property.
I'm going to give you awarranty, I'm going to stand
behind my work.
There's value to that right.
George Siegal (18:29):
Absolutely.
Now where should I be buying myplumbing products?
Should I be going to placeslike Lowe's and Home Depot?
Should I go to a supply store?
If I have to go get something,what's the best course for me to
follow?
Matt O'Rourke (18:41):
Yeah, I'm not saying do not go to the retail
box stores, but they're verylimited in the supplies and I
promise you what you find in aretail box store is not the same
quality as what you will findin a plumbing wholesale or a
plumbing store.
A good example is power tools.
The power tools that you buy atthose stores are not the same
(19:04):
quality and make than if youwent to a real tool store.
They might look the same butthey might be made out of the
country.
There's a price point right,and there's no question the
higher the price, the qualityshould be going up.
My biggest recommendation wouldbe to find a manufacturer and
(19:27):
go to their website, plumbingespecially.
There is just not enough spaceon those shelves at those stores
to show you all the latest andgreatest and the new
technologies coming out.
And then you're again.
You're.
You're limiting yourself to aspecific brand and, for an
example, navi and water heaters.
(19:47):
Most home motor probably willnever, ever see that and that is
a very good water heater andit's tankless, it's a limited
water heater and they areawesome, but you're not going to
find it at one of the storesthat most people can walk into.
So I would do a lot of research.
I think the more research youdo online and you know whether
(20:08):
it's Google, searching orlooking through trade magazines
you can.
There's a lot of really neatthings out there that people
just aren't aware of and againyou're at the mercy of that
plumber coming to your door.
If that plumber doesn't knowabout it, or educating
themselves, or they've been inthis industry for 20 years and
they're still doing the samething 20 years ago as today,
(20:28):
then you got, you're going to.
You're going gonna get limitedto what options you have.
Um so long answer, but I woulddefinitely find your local
wholesaler.
Uh, walk in there, they havecoffee and popcorn and pop and
you know, just start askingquestions, say hey, tell me the
latest and greatest hang on onesecond I gotta let my dog out
(20:50):
this door, yeah home shows arecool too.
Oh, got it.
What's that?
Yeah, home shows you know yesyou can.
You can get a lot of reallycool information and meet a lot
of neat people there.
George Siegal (21:05):
Yeah, my challenge has always been and
it's gotten a lot better inplaces like lowes and home
depots is finding help.
Um, and when you walk into someof those supply houses there
seem to be very knowledgeablepeople that help you pretty
quickly.
Matt O'Rourke (21:18):
Oh, and they can refer you too.
George Siegal (21:21):
Yeah, no, that's good.
Matt O'Rourke (21:23):
Another thing you can do is go to your local
municipality and your buildingdepartment.
They can't refer people to you,but you can say, hey, can you
give me a list of companies thathave pulled permits or have
done this type of work?
And you get a pretty good beaton who is a reputable or
somebody you can trust Now.
George Siegal (21:42):
Most plumbing repairs, though, don't need to
be permitted, do they?
I know people get in troublewhen they don't get permits for
certain things, but it's notlike adding on an extension at
your house.
If somebody is putting a newwater heater in, that's not.
You don't need a permit forthat.
Matt O'Rourke (21:57):
Replacing water here you do, actually replacing
a toilet, you don't or a faucetor fixing anything but.
But even outside of that, thebuilding departments are going
to know who's doing things atleast the right way, because
(22:18):
normally when people havecomplaints or people you know
maybe give a down payment or payfor a service and then it's not
, they don't show back up orsomething goes wrong.
The first complaint is usuallyto the local building department
, so you know if there'ssomething shady going on.
They probably have an idea whothat person is.
George Siegal (22:37):
Well, that's interesting, though you
surprised me with that.
So if I replaced a, I have atankless water heater.
Even a tankless water heaterwould need to be permitted if
they put a new one, or is itjust the big old hot water
heater?
Matt O'Rourke (22:49):
No, any water heater.
Any water heater replacementdefinitely has to be permitted.
George Siegal (22:54):
Interesting.
That's good to know.
I bet a lot of people neverwould even think to ask that.
Matt O'Rourke (22:59):
No, there's a lot of misconceptions, right.
Just because you pull a permitfor a water heater does not mean
that inspector is going to comeinto your house and say, oh,
you got all these other thingswrong.
That's not the case.
And then you're in Tampa, so inTampa your electric water it's
probably electric tankless,right, I think?
George Siegal (23:20):
it's.
I think it runs on natural gasbut you know what this is my
stupidity?
I don't know.
Matt O'Rourke (23:25):
Yeah, in Florida there's gas isn't very common,
right, and you know not to gettoo technical, but there's what
we call temperature rise, right?
So in the northern states I'mup in Michigan Our groundwater
is about 45 degrees and we haveto heat it up to about 120
degrees to get the hot water, sothat's an 80 degree temperature
(23:45):
rise.
So on a tankless your gallonsper minute drop.
Well, in Florida yourgroundwater is about 65, 70
degrees, so that gap is muchsmaller.
The delta you know the changein temperature, so you can get
away with electricity a lot more.
Electricity just doesn't workin the northern states.
But that's a good.
You know, you bring up a goodpoint.
You don't know if you have agas or electric water heater,
(24:09):
right.
So when you're calling for aplumber, you know they start
asking questions.
It's going to be harder for youto be able to figure out.
And that's where I think wereally try to educate homeowners
, right.
Because you know if you go onvacation or you go on a cruise
and you're gone for a coupleweeks, there are things that you
can do to prevent really badthings from happening.
(24:31):
But it also will help you whenyou get a plumber that might not
know what they're talking about, or trying to oversell you, or
maybe just something's not right.
It'll be easier for a homeownerto understand hey, wait, that
doesn't seem right and startasking questions and ultimately
say, well, maybe I'll getanother opinion.
George Siegal (24:52):
Yeah, I mean, I'm the first to admit.
Although I do a podcast calledhomeowners, be aware, I like to
let the experts you know tell mewhat certain things you know.
I just found out recently ourgenerator needed oil if it ran
for more than a couple of days.
They never told me that.
So there's so many thingshomeowners don't know, and if
you don't take the time to findout that knowledge on your own,
(25:14):
you don't find out until it's anemergency and then you need it.
If my hot tankless water heaterbroke today, I would not know
the answer.
Now my guess is that it runs onnatural gas.
But you're absolutely right, Ihave no idea.
Matt O'Rourke (25:26):
Well, and then, based on you telling me you have
a generator, now I'm prettyconfident it's on natural gas,
right?
George Siegal (25:33):
Yeah, so there's certain things we assume, but
there's still so many things wedon't know as homeowners.
Exactly right, and you're verytrustworthy.
Matt O'Rourke (25:38):
Obviously You're calling in an expert and you're
assuming that he's an expert, orshe's an expert and they might
be fantastic at snaking grainsor, you know, doing water
filtration again, but they mighthave never worked on a tankless
water heater doing waterfiltration again, but they might
have never worked on a tanklesswater heater.
George Siegal (26:00):
Yeah, I'll tell you, when we went to get a
generator, the spread of pricewas $20,000 from one company to
another.
That's a dramatic difference.
So somebody was trying to ripus off and that's always a
disappointment.
So although I rely on otherpeople, I don't trust very many
people.
How many estimates should I geton a job?
Normally Depends on the job.
Matt O'Rourke (26:17):
It depends on the how you like that person who's
coming to sell you the job.
You know, truly here's.
You know, let's take yourtankless water heater for an
example.
You know, if that stops workingand you call a plumber that
doesn't know that manufacturerof water heater that you have
installed, instead of repairingit, they're going to give you a
price to replace it.
(26:38):
And that could be a matter ofspending a couple hundred bucks
versus a few thousand dollars.
Right, and again, going back tothat, you know I would highly
recommend you, a homeowner,going to the manufacturer's
website.
So if you've got a water heaterand let's say your tankless is a
Renai or a Navion or a Bosch,go to the manufacturer and then
(27:01):
just do enough browsing so youfeel a little bit more
comfortable and confident inwhat you're talking about.
Then when that person comes outto give you a price or a bid,
again go.
That number should correlatewith what they're doing, and if
it doesn't make sense to you,then your intuition needs to
(27:22):
kick in and be like something'snot right here.
You know it doesn't make sense,it's not rocket science.
I promise you guys this.
I mean plumbing.
Is you got clean water comingin?
You got dirty water coming outand then you've got some
components in the middle thatheat it up and, you know, maybe
filter it a little bit more, butoutside of that there's really
(27:44):
not much more.
So if someone's trying tooversell you or the proposal is
very limited or not written, youknow, I like to say if it's not
written, it's not real.
And I also like to see optionsRight, like to see options right
.
So when you're looking atproposals or how many bids to
get you know I wouldn't spend aton of time, because it's not
(28:09):
fair to the contractor and it'snot fair to yourself either.
That's why I like to say beopen and honest.
You know what is your budget.
I would rather come in and helpyou get the project done within
your budget versus you tryingto make me guess where I need to
be to get the work.
You know, if you like them andtrust them, you can work with
them, because they're going tobe coming in and out of your
house.
George Siegal (28:29):
Yeah, that's always the game.
Who says the price first?
Now I asked you to come up withsomething funny or interesting
about yourself, and I thought itwas really interesting that
you're deathly afraid of heightsand small spaces.
Now I can see how you couldavoid heights as a plumber, but
I don't know how you could avoidsmall spaces.
Matt O'Rourke (28:44):
How challenging is that, Ben it's tunnel vision,
right, don't look around youand just stay focused, right.
It's a funny, quick, funnystory.
After college I knew I was innursing school and then I ended
in business.
But I'm like this isn't for me.
And back then trading spaceswas coming around and on TV.
So I'm like, oh, the, thetrades is something you know, or
(29:05):
a home improvement.
I think I'd be interested.
Well, my first go at it was aroofing apprenticeship and I
showed up there the first day.
I I I didn't get on the roof,george.
I looked up there.
I'm like, yeah, there's no wayI'm getting on this roof.
So I just happened to fall intoplumbing and you know plumbers
go very deep into the ground andI'm like I have no fear of
(29:27):
going, you know, 35 feetunderground to get to the sewers
and drains, but to this day youget me up higher than six feet.
I'm shaking, I just do not feelcomfortable and of course you
have to overcome that because wehave to get on roofs.
But I did my apprenticeship indowntown detroit back before
detroit really was making its umrevitalization and I would go
(29:50):
into this crawl space and it wasunderneath a gymnasium floor in
a high school and it was afriday afternoon, probably
around four o'clock, and therewas all kinds of bad stuff down
there you know the bugs and allthat and it was dark.
So I'm just walked crawlingthrough and I'm down there
working.
About an hour goes by and Ihear these steps and I'm like
what in the world is going on?
(30:11):
I turn around, it's this youknow older gentleman and he's
like what are you doing downhere?
I'm like I'm fixing.
He's like what are you doingdown here?
I'm like I'm fixing the steamline and what are you doing down
here?
He's like well, I'm theinspector, I was just calling to
see what you guys were doingand like you crawled all the way
back here on a Friday afternoon.
It was pretty crazy.
But yeah, it's, it's it's.
(30:34):
It's interesting because I'vebeen in some of the coolest
places.
I've been in some of thecoolest places.
I've been in the attic of acathedral Blessed Sacrament
Cathedral in Detroit andchurches.
Yesterday I was actually inBoston.
I was on the 40th floor of theRitz-Carlton, overlooking
Charles River and Harvard andCambridge, I mean really cool,
(30:59):
but yeah, there's times where Idon't know how I do what I do
because you just have to suck itup and get it done.
George Siegal (31:01):
It's there's times where I I don't know how I
do what I do, Cause you justhave to suck it up and get it
done, Right.
Yeah, and I know a lot ofpeople that make jokes about
Detroit, but I lived there forthree years and thought it was
great.
I mean, there's the people thatare great.
It's.
It's there's parts of the city,but there are a lot of great
parts.
Matt O'Rourke (31:23):
I love it and it is come a long ways.
I don't know when you livedhere, but it's pretty neat to
see a lot of young people movingdown there and the buildings
are cool All of our sportsstadiums.
George Siegal (31:27):
Detroit's got a great restaurant scene and
nightlife.
It's really cool place, yep.
The only complaint I have isthe weather too damn cold in the
winter and I do not like coldweather.
We're at 19 degrees right now.
Yeah, that's crazy.
I mean.
I remember days.
I was a weatherman there and somy job was to be outside when
the weather was bad.
Telling you not to go outside,I was miserable.
Matt O'Rourke (31:47):
Well, I get to come to Tampa.
My daughter was accepted to theUniversity of South Florida, so
we're going to be touring thereFriday Fantastic.
George Siegal (31:55):
Yeah, my daughter went there and it's a great
school Good Fantastic.
Yeah, my daughter went thereand it's a great school Good
deal.
Yeah, she's really going tolove it here.
It's a great place to live.
So final piece of advice forpeople if you have a problem and
you need to call a plumber,give me your best advice.
Matt O'Rourke (32:14):
I know we've talked about it, but let's wrap
it up with that, I would.
Brand image does mean a lot.
You know.
I think plumbers a lot likeDennis, when you find a plumber,
usually you're going to keepthat plumber.
So ask around.
Obviously your own network isprobably the best place to start
and read reviews.
And again, I like the three.
You know, maybe not so much thetwo, depending on what it is,
(32:36):
but the three and four stars.
I put a little bit more weightin those.
And be careful too, becausereviews, people are all kinds of
sorts of different right, sowhat might be important to you
might not be quite the same.
So even when you're on thatphone call, I would ask those
questions what type of productsdo you install?
(32:57):
What manufacturers do you workwith?
Where do you buy your parts?
I would try to stay away fromthe plumbers that go to the Home
Depot and Lowe's all the time.
The ones that say they actuallywork in the plumbing industry
are going to be the experts.
The ones that go to Home Depotbuy all their parts.
I promise you those aren't whatyour expert plumbers.
(33:18):
They're not going to Home Depotand Lowe's to buy their product
.
George Siegal (33:22):
Okay, last question, and I have to ask this
because I see it all the timewhen we're walking our dogs in
the neighborhood, we see tradesthat are out at the street.
The guys are all smoking andthen they go in to do their job.
And I'm thinking, when somebodywalks into my house as a
non-smoker and they've beensmoking out by the curb, that
drives me crazy.
What do you, what do you guysdo about that?
Matt O'Rourke (33:42):
That's well, that's the difference between a
new construction plumber and aservice plumber.
Quite honestly, you know yourservice plumbers.
They're not going to probablybe standing out in the street
smoking, okay.
So again, you can't just usethe word plumber and expect that
you're going to get a plumber.
That's where you really gottreated is like an interview.
(34:05):
You know what are the expertsin.
If you're putting an addition onyour house, then yeah, you're
going to get the plumbers thatare probably smoking and they're
going to be great at it, butit's not the same as what I I
like to use the word retail.
Most homeowners, if they'recoming to your house, you're
looking for a retail plumber, aplumber that is going to come in
(34:25):
, educate you, give you optionsand know what products put in
your home.
If you're building a new house,you do not want a retail
plumber, you want a constructionplumber, and those are probably
the plumbers are going to besmoking and standing out at the
trucks and you know they're notgoing to have the wrap trucks or
the logos.
But you also don't want to payretail rates to do that type of
(34:46):
plumbing work.
So just know that there's adifference and you probably got.
I'll try to sum this up inthree ways You've got your drain
cleaners, you've got yourretail plumbers that do service
work in finished plumbing andthen you've got your
construction plumbers.
Know that there's those threedifferences and then ask those
(35:06):
questions because that'll helpyou understand the pricing and
what you're going to get whenyou call one.
George Siegal (35:12):
Now, what about the guy you see advertising on
TV or on the billboards, or theones that are spending a lot of
money marketing?
Do they tend to cost more?
Matt O'Rourke (35:21):
Absolutely Right Cost of doing business.
Now, with that being said, theyalso have a little bit more to
lose, right, because they'renamed out there, you know who
they are, and so you're going toget a better job.
They're going to be a littlebit more money.
Hopefully, they're still fair,right.
Those are great ones to have inyour phone, though, because
(35:42):
when you need them at nights andweekends, that's who's going to
answer their phone.
George Siegal (35:47):
Yeah, that's when things always seem to break on
a Saturday or late at night whenit's like, okay, that's going
to cost me more.
Matt O'Rourke (35:53):
Oh and look, we want people to try to do things
on their own that they can, andwe'll even say hey, look, this
is something that you can do ifyou want to watch.
Just don't do it on a Sundaymorning.
George Siegal (36:05):
And then is DIY risky.
I know I keep throwingquestions at you, but I know
that changed a lot of thingswhere people try things that
maybe they shouldn't.
I don't think people shouldmess around with electrical
unless they know what they'redoing, but plumbing can be a
little safer unless you stripsomething when you're taking it
off or you do something.
Matt O'Rourke (36:27):
Think ahead, youtube is awesome.
I mean YouTube has changed theway we do plumbing.
I mean you can?
I like to tell people readinstructions.
The only difference withplumbers reading instructions,
we can actually follow themRight, so we understand what
they're saying.
But, you know if you're going todo something, um, think three,
four or five steps ahead, youknow.
Do you have your towels ready?
Do you have your buckets ready?
Do you know where to shut thewater off or the gas off If
(36:48):
you're going to?
If you're going to, you know,try to replace that toilet on
your own.
Know where to shut the wateroff first, so in case something
does go haywire, you have that.
Maybe you know who your plumberis, or you've already got the?
Hey, I'm going to give this ashot, but I'm going to have that
plumber on speed dial, just incase.
You can really do a lotnowadays, george.
(37:12):
I think the manufacturers havedone a fantastic job with
putting content out there tohelp people do it on their own.
Quite honestly, a lot of theproducts aren't that hard to
install, unless you're gettinginto the tankless and the bidet
seats and all of that.
Really, I'm telling you, ifthere's anything, there's a lot
more out there that people know.
That would really make yourlife a lot nicer.
(37:35):
You know as far as bidet seatsand tankless water heaters and
kudos to you for having that butyeah, just know where your
water shutoffs are.
Try to understand what could gowrong.
So that way you're a little bitprepared for it.
If it does.
You know, I think my biggestadvice is know your plumbing.
You know, go underneath yoursinks, turn the valves on and
(37:58):
off.
You know the old saying if it'snot broke, don't fix it.
That can lead to a lot moreproblems than going there.
And actually, you know turningthe water on and off
periodically and testing thingsif you don't use it.
You know, if you got that bigjacuzzi tub and you don't use it
ever, you know, run the waterthere every every month.
Um, and take tours of your homeand go in the basements once in
(38:21):
a while.
Uh, test it all out, cause themore you do that, the longer
that stuff's going to last.
George Siegal (38:27):
Yeah, that's great advice.
And then you know it's likewith a pool heater you don't
heat your pool for six months.
You'd go to use it and it's notworking.
Those things can't just sitaround and not get used.
Matt O'Rourke (38:36):
No, they freeze up.
You know, they actuallyliterally lock up, so especially
in Detroit.
Yeah, exactly right.
George Siegal (38:45):
Yeah, hey, matt, thank you so much for coming on
today.
Great advice People can reachyou.
You're going to give me, yougave me some social networking
links that people can get intouch with you.
Matt O'Rourke (38:56):
Absolutely Yep and I appreciate the invite.
George Siegal (39:03):
And this is really cool.
If you have a story about yourhouse, good or bad, I'd like to
hear from you.
There's a contact form in theshow notes.
Fill it out and send it my wayand you might be a guest on an
upcoming episode.
Also, check out the link in theshow notes to the trailer for
my new documentary film, builtto Last Buyer Beware, that's
coming out this summer.
Thanks for taking the time tolisten today.
I'll see you next time.
If your house had a plumbing problem, are you
confident you could pick up thephone and get the right person
out to fix it?
If you're building a house, doyou have that same confidence in
the plumbing crew your builderis using?
That raises the question arethere enough qualified plumbers
out there that we can count onat all?
My guest today is Matt O'Rourke.
He's been involved in theplumbing, sewer and drain
(00:22):
industry for more than 25 years.
He's been involved in theplumbing, sewer and drain
industry for more than 25 years.
He's going to take us inside thewalls of your home, giving us
important information that canmake the difference between
success and failure in takingcare of your plumbing issues.
I'm George Siegal, and this isHomeowners Be Aware the podcast
that teaches you everything youneed to know about being a
(00:43):
homeowner.
Matt, thank you so much forjoining me today.
Thank you.
I appreciate the invite.
Now.
Anybody that's ever called aplumber knows you can get a good
person showing up and you canget a bad person showing up.
How important is it to find theright person to do the job?
That's a great question.
Matt O'Rourke (01:02):
And it's a tough one because you really don't
know who you're going to get,and plumbers can range in
different levels of experienceor skill level.
I think the most importantthing you can do is really
communicate what yourexpectations are, you know, is
it water conditioning, waterfiltration, is it hot water?
So that way, the business orservice provider you're calling
(01:26):
can pair you with the plumberthat's the most experienced in
that, and compassion plays a bigrole in it.
If I'm passionate about waterheaters or water filtration or
conditioning, clearly I'm goingto be more experienced and
educated on that specificproduct.
And when you think aboutplumbing, it is huge, right?
(01:46):
I mean, there's a lot involvedin plumbing, different from
faucets to toilets, to drains,to boilers and water heaters.
There's all kinds of differentthings.
So, yeah, I'd really try to beupfront and set expectations of
what you're looking for whenyou're hiring a plumber.
George Siegal (02:03):
Yeah, I think when I've had the worst
experiences is when I've hadsome of those home warranties
where they have somebody thatthey send out and sometimes I've
learned there's a reason thatperson was available for taking
less money for that job andthat's frustrating.
And then the other time is whenyou're building a house, or
even when you buy a house,whoever the builder used to do
(02:25):
their plumbing, that can have amajor effect on how that job
comes out.
Matt O'Rourke (02:28):
Oh, absolutely.
And new construction plumbersare different from service
plumbers.
And then you brought up homewarranty, which is a whole
different animal because, likeyou know I'm going to be honest
they don't get paid very much.
Home warranty companies wantthe problem fixed is for the
lowest cost possible, which isnot always the best thing to do.
George Siegal (02:50):
Yeah, low bid wins is never a good thing, I
think, when it comes to fixingstuff in your house.
Matt O'Rourke (02:54):
It really isn't.
George Siegal (02:55):
I had a friend who was a plumber one time and I
said how do you get away withcharging what you do per hour?
And he looked at me and he goesit's the tools.
Matt O'Rourke (03:03):
He has the right tools to fix things.
Now I know it's a lot more thanthat the tools in the head.
And again, be honest, look atthe expectation of what you're
trying.
If you have a leaking toiletand that's a fairly new toilet
you just need to fix.
That's way different thangetting a new toilet, because I
don't like sending our customersto Home Depot or Lowe's or any
(03:26):
of the box stores you know itdoesn't matter which one and say
, go pick out what you like andI'll install it, because there
are a lot of options out therewith new technologies that for
some, what they have at thosebox stores might not be what you
really are looking for and youneed a plumber that can kind of
explain that and educate you onall the different options that
are out there.
(03:46):
It's like you would never buy acar for one place, right?
You're not going to go to a boxstore and buy a car.
You're going to go and hopethat the salesperson actually
tries to sell you on yourexpectations, your family,
lifestyle, all of those thingsthat play into it.
George Siegal (04:00):
Now having the wrong person and what we've
learned.
Like we have an upstairsbathroom where they didn't put
the seal in right when theyinstalled the toilet, and when
that happens on the second floor, that water has to go someplace
and it ends up on the firstfloor you can have major
problems.
How can a homeowner qualitycontrol those kind of things?
Matt O'Rourke (04:21):
Are you really just at the mercy of whoever the
builder chose?
Well, you are at the mercy, andyou're at the mercy of
marketing, right?
If a business or a plumbingcompany does really good at
marketing, the chances areyou're going to probably find
them first and then you're goingto call them without knowing
who that person is.
I obviously looking at reviews.
Now you know you don't wantsomebody that has all five-star
(04:42):
reviews, because that's probablynot real and we all have issues
, we all have mistakes andsometimes you just want to make
sure that the business or theplumbing company you're hiring
is going to stand behind thework and take care of it no
matter what happens.
But ultimately, don't justabandon and let them do whatever
they want and not check up onthem when they're done.
(05:03):
We take our customers and Iwould recommend a homeowner go
there, flush it three times withthem.
There, you know, have them showyou what they did.
The ones that are going to bereally proud of their work are
going to want to take you andshow you what they did.
If they're not doing that orthey're rushing, then red flags
kind of start to come up.
(05:23):
Right, you know, if I like tosay this to our plumbers educate
the homeowner as a homeowner,if you don't clearly understand
what they did and what you paidfor, that's probably a good
start to a sign that something'snot right you know.
We should be able to educateyou so you understand exactly
what the problem was and what wedid to fix it and ask for
(05:47):
options.
George Siegal (05:47):
You know, because there's always options.
Yeah, those five star reviewsare always sketchy to me.
If there's, if there's too manyof them, it just means you have
a big family and a lot offriends.
I like the two or three star,where the company actually goes
on there and says, well, whatcan we do to make this right for
you?
Or they explain.
Sometimes the customer is justa total a-hole and they're the
problem.
But you'll learn more fromthose.
Matt O'Rourke (06:09):
A hundred percent .
It tells a story right.
So the more you can tell astory about the business you're
hiring.
And again I think it goes backto there are really good
plumbing companies for newconstruction type plumbing.
There are really good companiesthat snake drains and get
sewers open and excavating.
And there's really goodcompanies for water conditioning
(06:30):
and water filtration.
But that doesn't mean the newconstruction plumber is gonna be
able to educate you on waterconditioning and water
filtration or water softeners.
So you really wanna find aplumber that you can trust
that's gonna be open and honestwith you.
When they say you know what,that's not what I'm an expert in
.
Let me find somebody who canhelp you.
And it might be going to amanufacturer, it might be going
(06:52):
to a local wholesaler orplumbing supply store and say,
hey, who do you know that hasinstalled this or who do you
know that can help with that andget some real world industry
guidance or suggestions as faras that goes.
George Siegal (07:09):
So the person who fixes a drain or a clogged
toilet is not necessarily theperson I want for my water
softener or the RO system.
Yeah, most likely, not.
Matt O'Rourke (07:18):
Yeah, yeah, they might be great at doing one
thing, but plumbing, again, it'sa huge industry.
They might be great at doingone thing, but plumbing, again,
it's a huge industry.
And you know we, we bring waterin, we take water out dirty
water, heat water condition andfilter water.
And I promise you I'm a masterplumber.
(07:38):
I've been doing this a longtime.
I'd like to think I know quitea bit, but there's no question,
I'm not an expert in all of it.
George Siegal (07:43):
Now, I think women can do anything men can do
.
Why are there not more femaleplumbers?
It seems like it's amale-dominated profession.
Matt O'Rourke (07:51):
So, believe it or not, that is changing.
We have five locations that nowhave female plumbers and
apprentices.
You know, I think the world'schanging.
You know I came in the industryin the 90s and I think when I
grew up, it wasgreat-grandfather, grandfather,
(08:11):
dad, son that's who's going tobe in the trades, going all the
way back from the beginning ofthe United States.
Well then, I think in the 80sit was college, college, college
, college, and then technologycame and I think that broke
right.
So the education piece kind ofstepped in and people, in a way,
(08:32):
almost shamed young people forgoing into the industry or the
trades.
It was like, hey, why aren'tyou going to college?
Hey, why don't you have acollege degree?
I think that hurt the tradesfor a long time.
Um, I think that hurt thetrades for a long time.
Um, well then, fast forward into, you know, covid and people
started really looking at thetrades as, hey, this is an
essential industry, right,people are still working.
(08:54):
Or look at college debt.
You know, I've I've got$150,000 of college debt I got
to pay off and I'm only making50, $60,000 a year coming out of
college with this degree that Iwas told I had to get.
And you know now I think, goingto your question with you know
young women are looking at heywait.
(09:15):
You know what otheropportunities are there besides
that college degree.
And you know, today, equipmentthere's a lot.
You know strength.
All of that is starting tobecome a little bit easier with
all the tools and and especiallyequipment and dollies and all
(09:35):
that good stuff.
So, um, but yeah, I thinkthat's changing.
I think you're going to see achange a lot faster too.
George Siegal (09:41):
Yeah, I think that, um, you know, people
realize they can pay off thatcollege debt with one or two
house calls.
No, I'm kidding, I think that'ssuch an important thing and to
have the right person come out.
And I find, you know, lookingon social media groups, finding
neighbors that have used people,and then when you call, it's
(10:04):
finding somebody that's, as yousay, sends the right person out,
because the wrong person canreally set you back when they
come out and try to do a job,horribly, and I want to be clear
too education is very important.
Matt O'Rourke (10:19):
It's just, how do we educate the young people?
In any career path we're, we'reall at the mercy of, you know,
whatever university you go to orwhatever trade school you go to
, or whatever you know in ourworld the plumber I decided to
join to become an apprentice,for I'm going to learn from that
person.
Well, you know, is that person,have they been educated or how
(10:43):
did they come up in the industry?
Because, more than likely,that's how they're going to
train that young person, right?
Well, you know, there's a lotof math and science in plumbing
and there's a lot of problemsolving.
And then we have to communicatewith homeowners.
You know that alone can be verytricky, right, I'm coming to you
.
I've never met you before.
I'm in your home.
Most times I'm in very personalspaces of your home.
(11:05):
You know bathrooms andbasements and you know, I've
seen the hoarders and I've seenthe.
You know all the differences ofpeople and homeowners.
Well, you know, you have tohave that relationship and you
got to do it rather quickly,right.
Build that trust and get you tolike me so that way I can
communicate appropriately, andso there's a lot that goes into
(11:27):
this stuff.
So you know, when you're hiringsomebody for to do work at your
home, you're now you're a.
You know you're an interviewerright, you're, you're now a
manager, you're hiring people.
And you got to approach it likethat too, because I think the
more for homeowners, the quickeryou can establish that comfort
(11:47):
level between you and thecontractor, the plumber.
George Siegal (11:51):
you're going to be able to get more of the truth
and really understand and bemuch more comfortable and
confident in their abilities hadin businesses that I've run a
lot of times is finding goodpeople, because sometimes your
business is only as good as thepeople that you find.
Is that a challenge for youguys?
Because I know that when I seetrades I live in Tampa, florida,
(12:14):
and some of the people thathave come out here I'm going how
are these people in business?
They either are late for theappointment, they show up and
they give you a bid based onwhat they saw when they drove up
, not necessarily what the jobshould cost.
I mean, there's so many thingsthat can screw it up from a
business perspective.
So how tough is that?
Matt O'Rourke (12:31):
Yeah, it's getting easier, believe it or
not, because again we're gettinga different type of person
that's interested in the trades.
So, like in the past, you'dhave a really good trades person
or mechanical aptitude person,but they were horrible at the
soft skills or the punctuality.
I like to say plumbers, we arefantastic at math and science.
(12:54):
We are all horrible atcomprehension for the most part.
You know no one likes to read.
You know they probably didn'tgo down that road.
But time management you knowthey probably didn't go down
that road, but time managementawful.
You know over-promise andunder-deliver you hear that a
lot.
When I started the business Istarted realizing, you know, my
plumbing skills isn't what Ineed to focus on.
(13:15):
I need to focus on dispatching,time management, scheduling,
marketing.
You know you start to shiftbecause what's the most
important to people?
You know, a lot of timesthrough the years the complaints
weren't you did a horrible jobplumbing.
(13:36):
You didn't show up and you'regoing to say, yeah, but show up.
I took the whole day off work.
You know I waited four hoursfor you.
It took a lot longer than Ithought.
All of those things go into this.
Those reviews again tell you astory.
They charge me too much.
I like to say we're not goingto be your Walmart purse, we're
(13:58):
not going to be your LouisVuitton purse, but you're really
looking for a contractor that'sgoing to be like a coach purse
Not too cheap, not too expensive, but they're going to show up
when they say they're going toshow up.
They're going to do what theysay they're going to do and I
feel, okay, everything was great, the price, eh.
But I don't have any othercomplaints besides that.
You know all A's and maybe a Cin price and I think that's what
(14:22):
you should really be lookingfor.
George Siegal (14:27):
Now friends of mine, my wife included, feel
they're going to get a differentprice if the woman of the house
is home versus the man of thehouse.
They feel like they're going toget taken advantage of.
It's like with mechanics,plumbers, electricians trades.
I'm sure you don't do that, butdoes that go on in the industry
?
You think there's no?
Matt O'Rourke (14:41):
question it does.
Look.
I mean there's two differentways to pay people.
You have commission and thenyou have hourly.
You know, and it's tough, right, because a commission plumber
there's no question, I feel theethics start to come in to some
degree and then an hourlyplumber they might be looking to
(15:02):
take more time.
Now what?
Try to ask enough questionsthat you understand, as a
homeowner, what it is that theplumber is going to be doing and
how much.
For If you understand what'sgoing to be done and the reason
why it has to be done and howmuch it's going to be, know that
(15:23):
before that work starts so youcan approve it, and then you'll
feel comfortable and confidentand don't listen to everybody
else saying, oh, you overpaidfor this or my cousin could have
done it for this price, thatmuch cheaper.
As a homeowner, if you know youhave a plumbing problem, you
want it fixed, and you setexpectations and the work's
completed for an agreed uponprice, then that's a win and I
(15:45):
feel like that's the bestapproach to take this because I
promise you a plumber can charge$50 an hour or $600 an hour.
It really does come down towhat is.
What are you having done atyour home and are you
comfortable with the price youpaid and you understand what was
done with that agreed uponprice.
George Siegal (16:06):
I always love it when someone says my cousin can
do it.
I've had that when I've goneout and bid for video projects
and somebody goes oh, you know,I bid $10,000 for a job one time
and the guy goes well, mycousin said he could do it for a
thousand and I said you want meto match that?
I go.
No, I said, but would you do mea favor and show me that video
when it's done?
I would love to see what thatthousand dollar video is like.
Matt O'Rourke (16:26):
I mean, if you're looking for the lowest price,
cause, you know, for whateverreason, then, just again, I
would say to the plumber as theycome in hey look, you know my
budget's $200.
This is what I'd like to havedone.
Can you do it or not?
(16:47):
And if they say, nope, I'm at$600 and you can't find, you
know, I'm not saying don'tnegotiate, because here's
another thing too.
You know, if you're having aplumber come to your house and
do a small little task, you know, let's just say your bathroom
sink is slow draining, nowthat's probably a pretty easy
(17:08):
fix, right, it's probably just,you know, a bunch of hair or
gunk and we can get that clean.
And you're going to pay ahigher rate just because we
still made the trip out there.
And you know, a lot of companiesmight charge an hour minimum.
But if you say, hey, I want,here's a long laundry list of
things that I'd like to havedone or, you know, this faucet's
leaking, this water heater'snot working, this drain's slow,
(17:31):
I promise you, the more you havedone, it starts to bring that
rate down as far as having.
You know, now we have morethings to do and we could
probably get a couple morethings done in the same amount
of time as it would take us todo something very simple.
So again, I would reallycaution homeowners the more you
can save our time as plumbers bysaying, okay, here's what I got
(17:54):
, here's our budget.
There's nothing wrong with withkind of negotiating that Cause
plumbing isn't like hey, here'sa you know, a pound of
strawberries and it costs $8.
You know it.
it really is it's fair to benegotiating.
You know to some degree, butyeah, never hurts to ask.
(18:15):
You're comparing apples toapples.
Did I come to you on a Saturdayon time and show up and you
know professional and I'm goingto protect your property.
I'm going to give you awarranty, I'm going to stand
behind my work.
There's value to that right.
George Siegal (18:29):
Absolutely.
Now where should I be buying myplumbing products?
Should I be going to placeslike Lowe's and Home Depot?
Should I go to a supply store?
If I have to go get something,what's the best course for me to
follow?
Matt O'Rourke (18:41):
Yeah, I'm not saying do not go to the retail
box stores, but they're verylimited in the supplies and I
promise you what you find in aretail box store is not the same
quality as what you will findin a plumbing wholesale or a
plumbing store.
A good example is power tools.
The power tools that you buy atthose stores are not the same
(19:04):
quality and make than if youwent to a real tool store.
They might look the same butthey might be made out of the
country.
There's a price point right,and there's no question the
higher the price, the qualityshould be going up.
My biggest recommendation wouldbe to find a manufacturer and
(19:27):
go to their website, plumbingespecially.
There is just not enough spaceon those shelves at those stores
to show you all the latest andgreatest and the new
technologies coming out.
And then you're again.
You're.
You're limiting yourself to aspecific brand and, for an
example, navi and water heaters.
(19:47):
Most home motor probably willnever, ever see that and that is
a very good water heater andit's tankless, it's a limited
water heater and they areawesome, but you're not going to
find it at one of the storesthat most people can walk into.
So I would do a lot of research.
I think the more research youdo online and you know whether
(20:08):
it's Google, searching orlooking through trade magazines
you can.
There's a lot of really neatthings out there that people
just aren't aware of and againyou're at the mercy of that
plumber coming to your door.
If that plumber doesn't knowabout it, or educating
themselves, or they've been inthis industry for 20 years and
they're still doing the samething 20 years ago as today,
(20:28):
then you got, you're going to.
You're going gonna get limitedto what options you have.
Um so long answer, but I woulddefinitely find your local
wholesaler.
Uh, walk in there, they havecoffee and popcorn and pop and
you know, just start askingquestions, say hey, tell me the
latest and greatest hang on onesecond I gotta let my dog out
(20:50):
this door, yeah home shows arecool too.
Oh, got it.
What's that?
Yeah, home shows you know yesyou can.
You can get a lot of reallycool information and meet a lot
of neat people there.
George Siegal (21:05):
Yeah, my challenge has always been and
it's gotten a lot better inplaces like lowes and home
depots is finding help.
Um, and when you walk into someof those supply houses there
seem to be very knowledgeablepeople that help you pretty
quickly.
Matt O'Rourke (21:18):
Oh, and they can refer you too.
George Siegal (21:21):
Yeah, no, that's good.
Matt O'Rourke (21:23):
Another thing you can do is go to your local
municipality and your buildingdepartment.
They can't refer people to you,but you can say, hey, can you
give me a list of companies thathave pulled permits or have
done this type of work?
And you get a pretty good beaton who is a reputable or
somebody you can trust Now.
George Siegal (21:42):
Most plumbing repairs, though, don't need to
be permitted, do they?
I know people get in troublewhen they don't get permits for
certain things, but it's notlike adding on an extension at
your house.
If somebody is putting a newwater heater in, that's not.
You don't need a permit forthat.
Matt O'Rourke (21:57):
Replacing water here you do, actually replacing
a toilet, you don't or a faucetor fixing anything but.
But even outside of that, thebuilding departments are going
to know who's doing things atleast the right way, because
(22:18):
normally when people havecomplaints or people you know
maybe give a down payment or payfor a service and then it's not
, they don't show back up orsomething goes wrong.
The first complaint is usuallyto the local building department
, so you know if there'ssomething shady going on.
They probably have an idea whothat person is.
George Siegal (22:37):
Well, that's interesting, though you
surprised me with that.
So if I replaced a, I have atankless water heater.
Even a tankless water heaterwould need to be permitted if
they put a new one, or is itjust the big old hot water
heater?
Matt O'Rourke (22:49):
No, any water heater.
Any water heater replacementdefinitely has to be permitted.
George Siegal (22:54):
Interesting.
That's good to know.
I bet a lot of people neverwould even think to ask that.
Matt O'Rourke (22:59):
No, there's a lot of misconceptions, right.
Just because you pull a permitfor a water heater does not mean
that inspector is going to comeinto your house and say, oh,
you got all these other thingswrong.
That's not the case.
And then you're in Tampa, so inTampa your electric water it's
probably electric tankless,right, I think?
George Siegal (23:20):
it's.
I think it runs on natural gasbut you know what this is my
stupidity?
I don't know.
Matt O'Rourke (23:25):
Yeah, in Florida there's gas isn't very common,
right, and you know not to gettoo technical, but there's what
we call temperature rise, right?
So in the northern states I'mup in Michigan Our groundwater
is about 45 degrees and we haveto heat it up to about 120
degrees to get the hot water, sothat's an 80 degree temperature
(23:45):
rise.
So on a tankless your gallonsper minute drop.
Well, in Florida yourgroundwater is about 65, 70
degrees, so that gap is muchsmaller.
The delta you know the changein temperature, so you can get
away with electricity a lot more.
Electricity just doesn't workin the northern states.
But that's a good.
You know, you bring up a goodpoint.
You don't know if you have agas or electric water heater,
(24:09):
right.
So when you're calling for aplumber, you know they start
asking questions.
It's going to be harder for youto be able to figure out.
And that's where I think wereally try to educate homeowners
, right.
Because you know if you go onvacation or you go on a cruise
and you're gone for a coupleweeks, there are things that you
can do to prevent really badthings from happening.
(24:31):
But it also will help you whenyou get a plumber that might not
know what they're talking about, or trying to oversell you, or
maybe just something's not right.
It'll be easier for a homeownerto understand hey, wait, that
doesn't seem right and startasking questions and ultimately
say, well, maybe I'll getanother opinion.
George Siegal (24:52):
Yeah, I mean, I'm the first to admit.
Although I do a podcast calledhomeowners, be aware, I like to
let the experts you know tell mewhat certain things you know.
I just found out recently ourgenerator needed oil if it ran
for more than a couple of days.
They never told me that.
So there's so many thingshomeowners don't know, and if
you don't take the time to findout that knowledge on your own,
(25:14):
you don't find out until it's anemergency and then you need it.
If my hot tankless water heaterbroke today, I would not know
the answer.
Now my guess is that it runs onnatural gas.
But you're absolutely right, Ihave no idea.
Matt O'Rourke (25:26):
Well, and then, based on you telling me you have
a generator, now I'm prettyconfident it's on natural gas,
right?
George Siegal (25:33):
Yeah, so there's certain things we assume, but
there's still so many things wedon't know as homeowners.
Exactly right, and you're verytrustworthy.
Matt O'Rourke (25:38):
Obviously You're calling in an expert and you're
assuming that he's an expert, orshe's an expert and they might
be fantastic at snaking grainsor, you know, doing water
filtration again, but they mighthave never worked on a tankless
water heater doing waterfiltration again, but they might
have never worked on a tanklesswater heater.
George Siegal (26:00):
Yeah, I'll tell you, when we went to get a
generator, the spread of pricewas $20,000 from one company to
another.
That's a dramatic difference.
So somebody was trying to ripus off and that's always a
disappointment.
So although I rely on otherpeople, I don't trust very many
people.
How many estimates should I geton a job?
Normally Depends on the job.
Matt O'Rourke (26:17):
It depends on the how you like that person who's
coming to sell you the job.
You know, truly here's.
You know, let's take yourtankless water heater for an
example.
You know, if that stops workingand you call a plumber that
doesn't know that manufacturerof water heater that you have
installed, instead of repairingit, they're going to give you a
price to replace it.
(26:38):
And that could be a matter ofspending a couple hundred bucks
versus a few thousand dollars.
Right, and again, going back tothat, you know I would highly
recommend you, a homeowner,going to the manufacturer's
website.
So if you've got a water heaterand let's say your tankless is a
Renai or a Navion or a Bosch,go to the manufacturer and then
(27:01):
just do enough browsing so youfeel a little bit more
comfortable and confident inwhat you're talking about.
Then when that person comes outto give you a price or a bid,
again go.
That number should correlatewith what they're doing, and if
it doesn't make sense to you,then your intuition needs to
(27:22):
kick in and be like something'snot right here.
You know it doesn't make sense,it's not rocket science.
I promise you guys this.
I mean plumbing.
Is you got clean water comingin?
You got dirty water coming outand then you've got some
components in the middle thatheat it up and, you know, maybe
filter it a little bit more, butoutside of that there's really
(27:44):
not much more.
So if someone's trying tooversell you or the proposal is
very limited or not written, youknow, I like to say if it's not
written, it's not real.
And I also like to see optionsRight, like to see options right
.
So when you're looking atproposals or how many bids to
get you know I wouldn't spend aton of time, because it's not
(28:09):
fair to the contractor and it'snot fair to yourself either.
That's why I like to say beopen and honest.
You know what is your budget.
I would rather come in and helpyou get the project done within
your budget versus you tryingto make me guess where I need to
be to get the work.
You know, if you like them andtrust them, you can work with
them, because they're going tobe coming in and out of your
house.
George Siegal (28:29):
Yeah, that's always the game.
Who says the price first?
Now I asked you to come up withsomething funny or interesting
about yourself, and I thought itwas really interesting that
you're deathly afraid of heightsand small spaces.
Now I can see how you couldavoid heights as a plumber, but
I don't know how you could avoidsmall spaces.
Matt O'Rourke (28:44):
How challenging is that, Ben it's tunnel vision,
right, don't look around youand just stay focused, right.
It's a funny, quick, funnystory.
After college I knew I was innursing school and then I ended
in business.
But I'm like this isn't for me.
And back then trading spaceswas coming around and on TV.
So I'm like, oh, the, thetrades is something you know, or
(29:05):
a home improvement.
I think I'd be interested.
Well, my first go at it was aroofing apprenticeship and I
showed up there the first day.
I I I didn't get on the roof,george.
I looked up there.
I'm like, yeah, there's no wayI'm getting on this roof.
So I just happened to fall intoplumbing and you know plumbers
go very deep into the ground andI'm like I have no fear of
(29:27):
going, you know, 35 feetunderground to get to the sewers
and drains, but to this day youget me up higher than six feet.
I'm shaking, I just do not feelcomfortable and of course you
have to overcome that because wehave to get on roofs.
But I did my apprenticeship indowntown detroit back before
detroit really was making its umrevitalization and I would go
(29:50):
into this crawl space and it wasunderneath a gymnasium floor in
a high school and it was afriday afternoon, probably
around four o'clock, and therewas all kinds of bad stuff down
there you know the bugs and allthat and it was dark.
So I'm just walked crawlingthrough and I'm down there
working.
About an hour goes by and Ihear these steps and I'm like
what in the world is going on?
(30:11):
I turn around, it's this youknow older gentleman and he's
like what are you doing downhere?
I'm like I'm fixing.
He's like what are you doingdown here?
I'm like I'm fixing the steamline and what are you doing down
here?
He's like well, I'm theinspector, I was just calling to
see what you guys were doingand like you crawled all the way
back here on a Friday afternoon.
It was pretty crazy.
But yeah, it's, it's it's.
(30:34):
It's interesting because I'vebeen in some of the coolest
places.
I've been in some of thecoolest places.
I've been in the attic of acathedral Blessed Sacrament
Cathedral in Detroit andchurches.
Yesterday I was actually inBoston.
I was on the 40th floor of theRitz-Carlton, overlooking
Charles River and Harvard andCambridge, I mean really cool,
(30:59):
but yeah, there's times where Idon't know how I do what I do
because you just have to suck itup and get it done.
George Siegal (31:01):
It's there's times where I I don't know how I
do what I do, Cause you justhave to suck it up and get it
done, Right.
Yeah, and I know a lot ofpeople that make jokes about
Detroit, but I lived there forthree years and thought it was
great.
I mean, there's the people thatare great.
It's.
It's there's parts of the city,but there are a lot of great
parts.
Matt O'Rourke (31:23):
I love it and it is come a long ways.
I don't know when you livedhere, but it's pretty neat to
see a lot of young people movingdown there and the buildings
are cool All of our sportsstadiums.
George Siegal (31:27):
Detroit's got a great restaurant scene and
nightlife.
It's really cool place, yep.
The only complaint I have isthe weather too damn cold in the
winter and I do not like coldweather.
We're at 19 degrees right now.
Yeah, that's crazy.
I mean.
I remember days.
I was a weatherman there and somy job was to be outside when
the weather was bad.
Telling you not to go outside,I was miserable.
Matt O'Rourke (31:47):
Well, I get to come to Tampa.
My daughter was accepted to theUniversity of South Florida, so
we're going to be touring thereFriday Fantastic.
George Siegal (31:55):
Yeah, my daughter went there and it's a great
school Good Fantastic.
Yeah, my daughter went thereand it's a great school Good
deal.
Yeah, she's really going tolove it here.
It's a great place to live.
So final piece of advice forpeople if you have a problem and
you need to call a plumber,give me your best advice.
Matt O'Rourke (32:14):
I know we've talked about it, but let's wrap
it up with that, I would.
Brand image does mean a lot.
You know.
I think plumbers a lot likeDennis, when you find a plumber,
usually you're going to keepthat plumber.
So ask around.
Obviously your own network isprobably the best place to start
and read reviews.
And again, I like the three.
You know, maybe not so much thetwo, depending on what it is,
(32:36):
but the three and four stars.
I put a little bit more weightin those.
And be careful too, becausereviews, people are all kinds of
sorts of different right, sowhat might be important to you
might not be quite the same.
So even when you're on thatphone call, I would ask those
questions what type of productsdo you install?
(32:57):
What manufacturers do you workwith?
Where do you buy your parts?
I would try to stay away fromthe plumbers that go to the Home
Depot and Lowe's all the time.
The ones that say they actuallywork in the plumbing industry
are going to be the experts.
The ones that go to Home Depotbuy all their parts.
I promise you those aren't whatyour expert plumbers.
(33:18):
They're not going to Home Depotand Lowe's to buy their product
.
George Siegal (33:22):
Okay, last question, and I have to ask this
because I see it all the timewhen we're walking our dogs in
the neighborhood, we see tradesthat are out at the street.
The guys are all smoking andthen they go in to do their job.
And I'm thinking, when somebodywalks into my house as a
non-smoker and they've beensmoking out by the curb, that
drives me crazy.
What do you, what do you guysdo about that?
Matt O'Rourke (33:42):
That's well, that's the difference between a
new construction plumber and aservice plumber.
Quite honestly, you know yourservice plumbers.
They're not going to probablybe standing out in the street
smoking, okay.
So again, you can't just usethe word plumber and expect that
you're going to get a plumber.
That's where you really gottreated is like an interview.
(34:05):
You know what are the expertsin.
If you're putting an addition onyour house, then yeah, you're
going to get the plumbers thatare probably smoking and they're
going to be great at it, butit's not the same as what I I
like to use the word retail.
Most homeowners, if they'recoming to your house, you're
looking for a retail plumber, aplumber that is going to come in
(34:25):
, educate you, give you optionsand know what products put in
your home.
If you're building a new house,you do not want a retail
plumber, you want a constructionplumber, and those are probably
the plumbers are going to besmoking and standing out at the
trucks and you know they're notgoing to have the wrap trucks or
the logos.
But you also don't want to payretail rates to do that type of
(34:46):
plumbing work.
So just know that there's adifference and you probably got.
I'll try to sum this up inthree ways You've got your drain
cleaners, you've got yourretail plumbers that do service
work in finished plumbing andthen you've got your
construction plumbers.
Know that there's those threedifferences and then ask those
(35:06):
questions because that'll helpyou understand the pricing and
what you're going to get whenyou call one.
George Siegal (35:12):
Now, what about the guy you see advertising on
TV or on the billboards, or theones that are spending a lot of
money marketing?
Do they tend to cost more?
Matt O'Rourke (35:21):
Absolutely Right Cost of doing business.
Now, with that being said, theyalso have a little bit more to
lose, right, because they'renamed out there, you know who
they are, and so you're going toget a better job.
They're going to be a littlebit more money.
Hopefully, they're still fair,right.
Those are great ones to have inyour phone, though, because
(35:42):
when you need them at nights andweekends, that's who's going to
answer their phone.
George Siegal (35:47):
Yeah, that's when things always seem to break on
a Saturday or late at night whenit's like, okay, that's going
to cost me more.
Matt O'Rourke (35:53):
Oh and look, we want people to try to do things
on their own that they can, andwe'll even say hey, look, this
is something that you can do ifyou want to watch.
Just don't do it on a Sundaymorning.
George Siegal (36:05):
And then is DIY risky.
I know I keep throwingquestions at you, but I know
that changed a lot of thingswhere people try things that
maybe they shouldn't.
I don't think people shouldmess around with electrical
unless they know what they'redoing, but plumbing can be a
little safer unless you stripsomething when you're taking it
off or you do something.
Matt O'Rourke (36:27):
Think ahead, youtube is awesome.
I mean YouTube has changed theway we do plumbing.
I mean you can?
I like to tell people readinstructions.
The only difference withplumbers reading instructions,
we can actually follow themRight, so we understand what
they're saying.
But, you know if you're going todo something, um, think three,
four or five steps ahead, youknow.
Do you have your towels ready?
Do you have your buckets ready?
Do you know where to shut thewater off or the gas off If
(36:48):
you're going to?
If you're going to, you know,try to replace that toilet on
your own.
Know where to shut the wateroff first, so in case something
does go haywire, you have that.
Maybe you know who your plumberis, or you've already got the?
Hey, I'm going to give this ashot, but I'm going to have that
plumber on speed dial, just incase.
You can really do a lotnowadays, george.
(37:12):
I think the manufacturers havedone a fantastic job with
putting content out there tohelp people do it on their own.
Quite honestly, a lot of theproducts aren't that hard to
install, unless you're gettinginto the tankless and the bidet
seats and all of that.
Really, I'm telling you, ifthere's anything, there's a lot
more out there that people know.
That would really make yourlife a lot nicer.
(37:35):
You know as far as bidet seatsand tankless water heaters and
kudos to you for having that butyeah, just know where your
water shutoffs are.
Try to understand what could gowrong.
So that way you're a little bitprepared for it.
If it does.
You know, I think my biggestadvice is know your plumbing.
You know, go underneath yoursinks, turn the valves on and
(37:58):
off.
You know the old saying if it'snot broke, don't fix it.
That can lead to a lot moreproblems than going there.
And actually, you know turningthe water on and off
periodically and testing thingsif you don't use it.
You know, if you got that bigjacuzzi tub and you don't use it
ever, you know, run the waterthere every every month.
Um, and take tours of your homeand go in the basements once in
(38:21):
a while.
Uh, test it all out, cause themore you do that, the longer
that stuff's going to last.
George Siegal (38:27):
Yeah, that's great advice.
And then you know it's likewith a pool heater you don't
heat your pool for six months.
You'd go to use it and it's notworking.
Those things can't just sitaround and not get used.
Matt O'Rourke (38:36):
No, they freeze up.
You know, they actuallyliterally lock up, so especially
in Detroit.
Yeah, exactly right.
George Siegal (38:45):
Yeah, hey, matt, thank you so much for coming on
today.
Great advice People can reachyou.
You're going to give me, yougave me some social networking
links that people can get intouch with you.
Matt O'Rourke (38:56):
Absolutely Yep and I appreciate the invite.
George Siegal (39:03):
And this is really cool.
If you have a story about yourhouse, good or bad, I'd like to
hear from you.
There's a contact form in theshow notes.
Fill it out and send it my wayand you might be a guest on an
upcoming episode.
Also, check out the link in theshow notes to the trailer for
my new documentary film, builtto Last Buyer Beware, that's
coming out this summer.
Thanks for taking the time tolisten today.
I'll see you next time.
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