May 17, 2025 • 24 mins
What if the answer to digital parenting concerns isn't about screen time limits or monitoring apps, but about understanding human development itself? In this eye-opening conversation, Diana Graber, author of "Raising Humans in a Digital World" and creator of the Cyber Civics curriculum, reveals why developmental psychology holds the key to healthy technology relationships.
Graber's perspective is refreshingly different. Rather than focusing solely on devices, she examines what makes us human in the first place. She explains why children can't fully engage in ethical thinking until around age 12-13 and how this biological reality should guide when we introduce social media and connected devices. "If we did one simple thing as parents and held off social media until the child's brain was ready for it," Graber notes, "it would solve 99% of our problems."
The conversation explores why empathy emerges as the essential "digital superpower" children need most. Face-to-face interactions in early childhood build empathy muscles that later transfer to online spaces. Sandbox conflicts where children witness the immediate emotional impact of taking a toy teach lessons no screen can replicate. These foundational human experiences must precede digital engagement.
Parents will appreciate Graber's practical guidance on teaching digital literacy at home. Her Cyber Civics curriculum offers over 140 developmentally appropriate lessons covering everything from basic safety to combating misinformation and deepfakes. Each lesson includes activities parents and children can complete together, creating what Graber calls the "trickle-up theory" where adults learn alongside their kids.
Ready to raise humans rather than just digital consumers? Email podcast@wokehomeschooling.com to share your thoughts on maintaining humanity in our increasingly digital world.
We’d be thrilled to offer any homeschoolers in your community 25% off a homeschool curriculum package: https://www.cybercivics.com/home-school
If you'd like to take advantage of this offer, feel free to contact Beverly at beverly@cybercivics.com and let her know you are a Woke Homeschooling community member.
For links and the transcript, visit wokehomeschooling.com/podcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Delina McPhaull (00:00):
Are digital worlds making us less human?
How can we honor humandevelopment while raising kids
up in a digital world?
Welcome to Homeschool Yourself.
I'm your host, delina.
Two things I wish about in myhomeschooling years I wish I
would have had a community oflike-minded homeschooling
families and I wish I would havewaited longer for my kids to
get their phones.
(00:20):
Now my children would probablydisagree, but I think the worst
thing I ever did as a parent wasget them phones when they were
in middle school.
Seriously, digital literacy isso important and media seems to
come at you faster than you canteach lessons about how to
handle all the messages.
My favorite topic in collegewas learning about media
messaging and media ethics, andthough I tried to incorporate
(00:41):
some of that in my homeschool,it was haphazard at best.
I didn't know about my guestand I didn't know about her book
, and I didn't know about hercurriculum called Cyber Civics.
I hadn't read her book RaisingHumans in a Digital World, and
this book is so amazing.
It distills everything that welearn about human development
(01:03):
and behavior, and it helpsparents to apply it to their
child's digital life.
In this episode I'm talking toDiana Graber, who wrote the book
Raising Humans in a DigitalWorld.
I think you'll find it helpful.
Take a listen.
Hi, welcome Diana to WokeHomeschooling's podcast,
homeschool Yourself.
(01:23):
I'm going to ask you tointroduce yourself.
Diana Graber (01:27):
Sure, Well, first of all, thanks for having me.
I'm Diana Graber.
I'm the author of RaisingHumans in a Digital World
Helping Kids Build a HealthyRelationship with Technology,
and also the founder of acurriculum called Cyber Civics,
which I'm sure we'll talk about,and a site for parents called
CyberWise, which is full ofresources to help parents of
digital kids.
(01:47):
Beautiful.
Delina McPhaull (01:51):
I wanted to talk to you because I love your
book, your book is completely.
It's so full of information.
We're only going to talk about acouple of things about the book
, but I definitely want to askour listeners to check your book
out Raising Humans in a DigitalWorld.
So the reason I wanted to talkto you is because I think your
(02:12):
approach resonates a lot withhomeschooling parents in
particular, because we're reallyinvested in our child's
development as a whole personNot that other parents aren't,
but we just have really part ofthe homeschooling thing is to
say, okay, I'm going to do this,I am going to, I'm going to be
(02:34):
intentional about this.
So we recognize this desire andI really appreciate your
approach because you get outsideof the usual questions about
digital, digital media.
You get outside of thequestions about devices like you
(02:55):
know, how much time should mychild spend online, or when is
it an appropriate age to givethem a connected device, or how
can I control my teen socialmedia use?
You get outside of that.
You step back and you say, well, what are we really after, like
, how do we raise a whole human?
(03:17):
So can you talk to me aboutwhat you mean when you say, like
, what it means to be human?
Diana Graber (03:28):
Sure, well, first of all, thank you for the kind
words about the book and I'mgoing to back up just a little
bit because I laughed when yousaid it resonates with
homeschoolers, because theprogram was actually founded at
a public charter Walder schoolthat my children attended and we
always joke that the school washomeschooling for lazy people
because we were very involvedbut we didn't do the actual
teaching.
So that's where it found itsroots and today, even though our
(03:49):
curriculum is sold primarily toschools, we have a ton of
homeschoolers that subscribe toit because it really speaks to
them, I think because of thoseroots, and we are very focused
and intentional about looking atthe whole child, and so the
curriculum is verydevelopmentally oriented.
We meet kids where they are andall of the skills that we're
(04:10):
teaching them hopefully applyonline and offline, because it's
not really about the tools,it's about how you treat the
tools and how you treat eachother.
Delina McPhaull (04:19):
I love that.
I love that, so how do you that?
I love that, so how do you?
How do you?
Why did you approach it thatway?
Diana Graber (04:34):
Well, it's really because of my training about
gosh.
15 years ago now, I went backto school and got a master's in
media psychology and socialchange.
A lot of developmentalpsychology was woven into the
program and so when learningabout digital devices and
developmental psychology, Ithought, gosh, you know we're
doing this all wrong.
Instead of like teaching thekids, don't do this, don't do
that, we need to see where theyare developmentally and what
(04:55):
they're, what they like to do atthat age.
Here's an example.
So we're teaching a lot ofreally young kids, you know,
don't cyber bully, don't be mean, blah, blah, blah.
And the thing is, you know,kids do not develop the ability
to engage in ethical thinkinguntil they're about 12 or 13
years of life.
So they can't understand whatsomeone else is feeling, they
(05:17):
can't fully understand theimplications of what they do, so
you can't really have themthink through the consequences
of their online actions untilthey're old enough to get there.
So you're teaching black andwhite thinking to the younger
kids and more ethical thinkingto the older kids.
So that's a really long-windedno that we have to meet kids
(05:38):
where they are.
When it comes to the digitalworld, it's very complex I love
that.
Delina McPhaull (05:42):
I wanted to talk to you about two topics in
particular, and one of thosethings is ethical thinking and
empathy.
So talk to me more about thestages of children's moral
development.
Diana Graber (05:54):
Oh boy, I love this.
I wish I could remember as muchas I knew 10 years ago.
But basically, when kids arevery young, everything is about
seeing the world through theirown lens.
When kids are very young,everything is about seeing the
world through their own lens andthey don't understand.
They can't put somebody intheir self, into somebody else's
shoes, so it's really hard forthem to be empathetic in that
manner.
That's a really important thingwhen it comes to digital
(06:16):
technology.
So when they approach that 12to 13 year age range, they start
being able to do abstractthinking, which is, you know,
thinking about the consequencesof their actions, what someone
else might be feeling, andthat's a prerequisite for
ethical thinking.
What's really interesting isthat if you do the research
there's, some people never reachthat higher realm of you know.
(06:37):
Go online and you'll have greatexamples, right, so you know.
But that's what we want ourkids to achieve is to be able to
be an ethical thinker and to bekind and thoughtful about the
things they do and say I lovethat because that is part of
being human right.
Delina McPhaull (06:55):
So I I love this quote that you have in your
book.
While technology has alteredthe world, it hasn't altered the
time it takes a child's brainto develop the ability to use
technology well.
Diana Graber (07:05):
So true yeah.
I understand why those wordstoday, because it kills me when
I read articles about kids thatare on social media networks and
they're not 13 yet.
So they've lied about their ageand they've been cyber bullied.
In some cases they've killedthemselves because of things
they've done or seen online.
And I'm thinking, you know, ifwe did one simple thing as
(07:28):
parents and we held off socialmedia or any connected devices
until the child's brain wasready for it, it would solve 99%
of our problems.
Wow.
Delina McPhaull (07:39):
Wow.
So what do you think are someof the ways that technology
short circuits this quest to behuman?
Diana Graber (07:47):
Yeah, Like what does it do?
I mean that's a great.
I'm going to turn that around alittle bit because I think it
can augment it too.
I think that if we learn thetime and place to use our
devices to connect with eachother and the time and place not
to need a device to do that, Ithink of that in terms of our
lessons, and I was just goingthrough the lessons yesterday
(08:08):
and I was reminded by one that Ireally love.
It's our lesson about emailetiquette.
Reminded by one that I reallylove.
It's our lesson about emailetiquette.
And the activity in that lessonis we say, okay, just think of
instances in which it would bebetter to text than to call, or
think of instances that would bebetter to be face-to-face
rather than text, and have thechildren think of all the
different ways there are tocommunicate and what kind of
(08:30):
things are appropriate to eachmethod.
And so I think that's the waywe need to look at it now,
because connected devices aresuch a part of our life.
They serve a time and purpose,but in some places they get in
the way and we need to help ourkids discover what those places
are.
Delina McPhaull (08:47):
Oh, wow, I love that you write that from all
the experts you talk to for yourbook.
Most of them said that if theycould equip kids with one
digital superpower, it would beempathy.
Will you talk to me about that?
Diana Graber (09:02):
Yeah, I mean gosh.
So much of what we see onlineand so many of the problems,
especially between teens, Ithink is just a problem of not
really thinking through how theother person is feeling from
what you say or do, whether it'sjust simple digital drama or an
unkind comment or a picturethat might be hurtful If we
(09:24):
start to have and kids aregenerally pretty empathetic in
the real world.
That's why I love to doactivities related to digital
media education in the realworld first.
First, because they start tosee the consequences of your
actions.
They see how a mean commenthurts somebody by the expression
on the face.
So developing that empatheticmuscle I think is really
(09:46):
important before kids go onlineso that they might think twice
how something might feel to theperson on the other end of the
screen.
Delina McPhaull (09:54):
That's interesting.
So because they're interactingonline and they don't see or
feel that other person, it'shard for them to put themselves
in another person's shoes.
Right, and I?
Diana Graber (10:11):
think something that teens love to do is sarcasm
.
Sarcasm, yeah, and in the realworld we use it, we laugh, we
know we're being sarcastic.
That just does not read wellonline and there's been so many
you know problems that haveemanated from that, and so that
goes hand in hand with empathy.
To think about gosh, how mighthow might that read, I wonder if
(10:31):
that's why they developedemojis, exactly yeah.
There was a study about emojisand how it's impossible to
create enough emojis toreplicate what the human face
can do.
Wow, isn't that crazy?
Wow, yeah, we can relate somuch more with our own human
face than an emoji ever could.
(10:58):
How do you think we can help ourchild's capacity for empathy?
Well, I think, oh gosh, I mean,there's so many ways.
We, you know that's aface-to-face human thing that
you just have to practice.
You know, I mean from theminute a child's in a sandbox
and they take their friend's toyand the friend starts crying,
you know that's a lesson inempathy, right?
So think about that.
You know a five-year-old,four-year-olds, are spending
(11:20):
time in front of a screen whenthey should be spending time in
the sandbox watching thatinteraction happen.
That kids used to do.
They should keep doing those asmuch as possible, as often as
possible, because that's what'sbuilding empathy and a lot more
of these human traits that wewant our kids to have before
they go online.
Delina McPhaull (11:42):
So you, you, you, encourage parents to
develop these things before theygo online, but when is it?
Ever before In the womb.
Diana Graber (11:56):
These days pretty much right.
I know and I think you knowthat brings us to the point that
you know, I know it's reallyhard for parents of infants and
young children because we'rebusy and there's time and all
that, but as much as possible toremember that the skills kids
need most are face-to-face.
You know, being read to, talkedto, played with All of those
(12:18):
basic skills builds a strongfoundation of being a human and
those skills will become soimportant when the child finally
does go online.
So as much as you can buildthat into the day, it will pay
off later yeah.
Delina McPhaull (12:33):
And, as homeschooling parents know,
there's definitely enough hoursin the day to do all of it.
Yeah, those days get long, okay.
So how do you, how do youadvise parents to teach media
literacy skills to theirchildren, homeschooling or not?
Diana Graber (12:51):
Yeah, so that's a tough one because, you know and
I like to call it digitalliteracy because we kind of
think it's built of a lot ofdifferent things we break it
down to digital citizenship,information literacy and media
literacy and, honestly, it's alittle bit hard for parents to
teach these skills themselvesbecause there's so many, you
know, and that's why wedeveloped a curriculum to make
(13:13):
it super easy for parents toknow what to teach.
So what the best thing a parentcan do is model wise use of
technology, and what I mean bythat is, you know, be mindful
about, when you pick up thedevice, what you use it for.
You know, with a young child,if you do have to look at your
cell phone, say, I'm using mycell phone to call grandma, do
you want to do it with me?
Or I'm using cell phone to lookup a recipe that we're going to
(13:35):
cook together at dinner.
So modeling, explaining all ofthat, is teaching media or
digital literacy.
Delina McPhaull (13:44):
Okay, what?
Tell me more about thecurriculum and how a parent can
use it?
Diana Graber (13:56):
So.
So this is exactly why wedeveloped the curriculum and and
just as a little backstory, sowhen my kids were attending this
um homeschool for lazy parents,I had just finished my program
and, um, there was a littlecyber bullying incidents, which
really wasn't cyber bullying, itwas digital drama, but it's
still.
It just like blew everything up, like parents are like, oh, oh,
my gosh, there's going to bemore of this.
Feelings are hurt, what do wedo?
What's Facebook?
All of this?
(14:16):
So I was able to use what I hadlearned in my program to start
teaching these lessons to kids.
So we started out with a year ofdigital citizenship in sixth
grade, which is the safe andresponsible use of digital tools
, and it was really powerful.
(14:38):
When we finished that firstyear, we realized, okay, we've
taught the kids how to be safe,but that is just dropping the
bucket.
There's so much more you needto know.
So we added on another year ofinformation literacy, which is
knowing how to find, analyze,use and retrieve or something
like that information online.
So it's basically about youknow how to use Google, now that
we have chat, gpt, how to usethat ethically and safely, how
to maintain your privacybasically, how to use the
(14:59):
internet to learn to research.
And then the final year that weadded was media literacy, and
that's using critical thinkingskills to analyze media messages
.
So that includes everythingfrom visual literacy to
misinformation, to deep fakes,et cetera.
So that includes everythingfrom visual literacy to
misinformation, to deep fakes,et cetera.
So that's our middle schoolcurriculum.
It's really comprehensive.
There's less than a weekthroughout the entirety of
(15:21):
middle school.
And then people were saying,well, what do you do for fourth
and fifth grade?
Because kids are going onlineso young, and so we maintain
that kids should wait until 12or 13, 13 before they, you know,
join social media.
But we decided to do lessonsfor the younger kids that are
based on values, and I reallylove it and it's so great for
homeschoolers because it'sbasically turnkey.
(15:43):
There's a video and thenthere's a little activity, but
basically we cover all thevalues you know kindness,
honesty, responsibility,self-discipline and we talk
about what does the value looklike in the real world?
Now, what does it look likeonline?
And so we go through all ofthose and then there's just
basic lessons on how to search,work, what is the internet, you
(16:04):
know?
How do you stay safe?
How do you make a good password, just basic things that a
younger child might need to know.
So it's really.
I think we're like up to 140lessons now.
Delina McPhaull (16:21):
Oh, wow, I love that.
I love that Because so many ofthem have grown up with this
just being part of their life.
You know, you don't usuallyteach kids like what is water?
You just, it's just water.
Diana Graber (16:32):
And you know there's a great.
You know the great mediatheorist, marshall McLuhan, way
back when, said you know, atfirst all new technology shakes
up our world and then it becomesinvisible.
Delina McPhaull (16:44):
And.
Diana Graber (16:45):
I think that's so true, but before it becomes
invisible, we should really takea hard look at it and see what
we like about it and what wedon't like about it.
And it's perfectly applicableto AI.
Right now, you know AI is goingto be invisible really quick if
it's not, and kids right nowshould be taking a good hard
look at it to see what it isthey like and what they don't
like and how it works and all ofthat.
Delina McPhaull (17:06):
Yes, and that ties in perfectly to your notion
of becoming human, because it'smore important to be human now
that AI can do everything else.
Yeah, exactly.
Diana Graber (17:20):
So we have a lot of what we call AI literacy
lessons woven into thecurriculum now.
Delina McPhaull (17:24):
Oh, you do, you do.
What kind of conversations doyou think that are important to
have with teens?
Oh, boy.
About.
What About digital life?
Diana Graber (17:36):
Yes, I mean, how long do you have?
I know, I mean we try to dothis right as they enter
teenagehood because there's somuch I'm going to bore you right
now, but they should know abouttheir digital reputation, about
cyberbullying, digital drama,sexting, sextortion, revenge,
porn, misinformation,disinformation, fake nudes, deep
(17:58):
fakes, visual literacy,stereotypes, privacy, personal
information filter bubbles, somuch.
I mean, I'll go on for the hourif you like, but that's what I
mean.
There's a lot there, and that'swhy it's hard for a parent to
know what to cover, and so wetry to piece these together in a
(18:19):
way that's reallydevelopmentally appropriate and
builds upon skills that mean inthe online world.
Well, when you're a citizen,what does your online presence
look like and what is yourdigital reputation?
And then building, building,building, building, until you
finally get to the really toughstuff, you know.
Delina McPhaull (18:39):
Wow, wow.
I feel, like you need to dosome some adult, some lessons
for adults, yeah.
Diana Graber (18:48):
Well, what's nice about the curriculum is, with
every lesson there's a homeactivity that parent and child
can do together.
So we call that the trickle uptheory, so that the parents, by
teaching this curriculum, theywill learn so much.
Yes, yes.
Delina McPhaull (19:06):
I love that Now we see many adults being swayed
by misinformation and beingugly to each other online, like
you mentioned before, orchoosing phones over the people
around them.
How do you, as an adult and asa parent, homeschool yourself
and continue to stay human in adigital world?
Diana Graber (19:28):
It's getting harder and harder, isn't it?
I mean, that's such a goodquestion, I think.
More face-to-face time, youknow, more human connection, all
of that we need more.
Walk away from the devices,take breaks, you know it's
pretty toxic out there.
Yeah, Be really mindful of whatyou decide to look at.
Especially, be mindful of whatyou like and share.
(19:50):
It's like a vote.
We don't want to amplifymisinformation or bad
information or mean things, andand that's the problem with, I
think, social media is that youknow, as humans, we're primed to
react to things that areinflammatory.
Yes, and we have to know thatand stop ourselves.
(20:10):
You know, don't just read aheadline.
I mean, headlines are made tobait you and get you inside it.
That's what they're designed todo to sell advertising.
So, you know, do what we teachthe kids to do Read the go to
read the article.
Open a second tab on yourbrowser, look up the author.
Is this like a real you knowexpert, or is it just some you
(20:32):
know person somewhere tweetingor texting something they think?
Number one.
Number two look at theirsources, like if someone's
saying things, find out wherethey got their information.
Is it a verifiable source?
Yes, and then, third, see whatother people are saying about
the information.
See if that information isbeing debunked somewhere else.
Announcer (20:55):
So it's a lot of work it takes work?
Diana Graber (20:57):
Yep, it's work, but it's such important work
because I mean misinformation.
Disinformation is so rampant.
We've got to.
It's up to us to stop it.
There's nothing else that'sgoing to stop it.
Delina McPhaull (21:09):
An outage, internet outage, an internet
outage.
The three things that you justmentioned are those related to
that CRAAP acronym that you havein your book.
Diana Graber (21:25):
You know what?
The CRAAP acronym, which Ithought was wonderful that's
sort of been put out to pastureoh has it.
And it's been replaced by somewonderful research that was done
by the Stanford HistoryEducation Group.
And the three things that Ijust described to you is the way
that real fact checkers youknow at reputable organizations
that's how they checkinformation, and so that's now
(21:47):
what we're teaching kids to do.
Delina McPhaull (21:49):
Okay, perfect kids to do.
Okay, perfect.
So how can people connect withyou and maybe get a sample
lesson for their digitalliteracy lessons at home?
Diana Graber (21:59):
Oh boy, I mean, they're welcome to look at the
website.
It's cyber civicscom.
They're welcome to email ussupport at cyber civicscom or
call us.
There's a phone number on thewebsite.
But I did want to say we offera pretty great special for
homeschoolers.
Oh, it's a significant discountand it's like a three-year
license so they can get throughthe entirety of the curriculum.
(22:19):
So, um, and they'll find it onthe website.
We have a little page just forhomeschoolers.
So I love that and it's thesame curriculum that schools use
.
But there's a guide in therethat tells homeschoolers how to
adapt it for one up to 10 kidsand the way the license works.
It's for up to 10 kids becausewe know a lot of times families
(22:39):
teach their children together.
Delina McPhaull (22:41):
Yes, I love that.
Thank you so much, yeah, and ittruly has been delightful to
talk to you.
I hope everyone picks up yourbook.
Thank you for joining us onHomeschool Yourself.
Thank you so much for having me.
I love the advice Diana gave totake stock in our own digital
consumption in order to stayhuman and model this for our
(23:01):
kids.
Most of us grew up in a lessmediated environment.
We know what it's like to behuman and the importance of
in-person connection.
Let's not let devices strip usof our humanity in fundamental
ways.
I'm encouraged to be moredeliberate and more intentional
about putting people overdevices and building in some
intentional connection in myhome.
(23:21):
I would love to hear whatnuggets you got from this
conversation that I had withDiana.
Would you email me?
My email is podcast atwokehomeschoolingcom.
Until next time, put the phonedown and go homeschool yourself
with a book.
Announcer (23:49):
Homeschool Yourself is a production of Woke
Homeschooling Inc.
Homeschool Yourself is aproduction of Woke Homeschooling
Inc.
For show notes and links tothings mentioned in the episode,
visit wokehomeschoolingcomslash podcast.
Woke Homeschooling empowersparents to teach their kids an
inclusive, truthful history.
We invite you to visit ourwebsite and download a sample of
the history curriculum we offerfor kids.
(24:09):
Visit us atwokehomeschoolingcom.
Are digital worlds making us less human?
How can we honor humandevelopment while raising kids
up in a digital world?
Welcome to Homeschool Yourself.
I'm your host, delina.
Two things I wish about in myhomeschooling years I wish I
would have had a community oflike-minded homeschooling
families and I wish I would havewaited longer for my kids to
get their phones.
(00:20):
Now my children would probablydisagree, but I think the worst
thing I ever did as a parent wasget them phones when they were
in middle school.
Seriously, digital literacy isso important and media seems to
come at you faster than you canteach lessons about how to
handle all the messages.
My favorite topic in collegewas learning about media
messaging and media ethics, andthough I tried to incorporate
(00:41):
some of that in my homeschool,it was haphazard at best.
I didn't know about my guestand I didn't know about her book
, and I didn't know about hercurriculum called Cyber Civics.
I hadn't read her book RaisingHumans in a Digital World, and
this book is so amazing.
It distills everything that welearn about human development
(01:03):
and behavior, and it helpsparents to apply it to their
child's digital life.
In this episode I'm talking toDiana Graber, who wrote the book
Raising Humans in a DigitalWorld.
I think you'll find it helpful.
Take a listen.
Hi, welcome Diana to WokeHomeschooling's podcast,
homeschool Yourself.
(01:23):
I'm going to ask you tointroduce yourself.
Diana Graber (01:27):
Sure, Well, first of all, thanks for having me.
I'm Diana Graber.
I'm the author of RaisingHumans in a Digital World
Helping Kids Build a HealthyRelationship with Technology,
and also the founder of acurriculum called Cyber Civics,
which I'm sure we'll talk about,and a site for parents called
CyberWise, which is full ofresources to help parents of
digital kids.
(01:47):
Beautiful.
Delina McPhaull (01:51):
I wanted to talk to you because I love your
book, your book is completely.
It's so full of information.
We're only going to talk about acouple of things about the book
, but I definitely want to askour listeners to check your book
out Raising Humans in a DigitalWorld.
So the reason I wanted to talkto you is because I think your
(02:12):
approach resonates a lot withhomeschooling parents in
particular, because we're reallyinvested in our child's
development as a whole personNot that other parents aren't,
but we just have really part ofthe homeschooling thing is to
say, okay, I'm going to do this,I am going to, I'm going to be
(02:34):
intentional about this.
So we recognize this desire andI really appreciate your
approach because you get outsideof the usual questions about
digital, digital media.
You get outside of thequestions about devices like you
(02:55):
know, how much time should mychild spend online, or when is
it an appropriate age to givethem a connected device, or how
can I control my teen socialmedia use?
You get outside of that.
You step back and you say, well, what are we really after, like
, how do we raise a whole human?
(03:17):
So can you talk to me aboutwhat you mean when you say, like
, what it means to be human?
Diana Graber (03:28):
Sure, well, first of all, thank you for the kind
words about the book and I'mgoing to back up just a little
bit because I laughed when yousaid it resonates with
homeschoolers, because theprogram was actually founded at
a public charter Walder schoolthat my children attended and we
always joke that the school washomeschooling for lazy people
because we were very involvedbut we didn't do the actual
teaching.
So that's where it found itsroots and today, even though our
(03:49):
curriculum is sold primarily toschools, we have a ton of
homeschoolers that subscribe toit because it really speaks to
them, I think because of thoseroots, and we are very focused
and intentional about looking atthe whole child, and so the
curriculum is verydevelopmentally oriented.
We meet kids where they are andall of the skills that we're
(04:10):
teaching them hopefully applyonline and offline, because it's
not really about the tools,it's about how you treat the
tools and how you treat eachother.
Delina McPhaull (04:19):
I love that.
I love that, so how do you that?
I love that, so how do you?
How do you?
Why did you approach it thatway?
Diana Graber (04:34):
Well, it's really because of my training about
gosh.
15 years ago now, I went backto school and got a master's in
media psychology and socialchange.
A lot of developmentalpsychology was woven into the
program and so when learningabout digital devices and
developmental psychology, Ithought, gosh, you know we're
doing this all wrong.
Instead of like teaching thekids, don't do this, don't do
that, we need to see where theyare developmentally and what
(04:55):
they're, what they like to do atthat age.
Here's an example.
So we're teaching a lot ofreally young kids, you know,
don't cyber bully, don't be mean, blah, blah, blah.
And the thing is, you know,kids do not develop the ability
to engage in ethical thinkinguntil they're about 12 or 13
years of life.
So they can't understand whatsomeone else is feeling, they
(05:17):
can't fully understand theimplications of what they do, so
you can't really have themthink through the consequences
of their online actions untilthey're old enough to get there.
So you're teaching black andwhite thinking to the younger
kids and more ethical thinkingto the older kids.
So that's a really long-windedno that we have to meet kids
(05:38):
where they are.
When it comes to the digitalworld, it's very complex I love
that.
Delina McPhaull (05:42):
I wanted to talk to you about two topics in
particular, and one of thosethings is ethical thinking and
empathy.
So talk to me more about thestages of children's moral
development.
Diana Graber (05:54):
Oh boy, I love this.
I wish I could remember as muchas I knew 10 years ago.
But basically, when kids arevery young, everything is about
seeing the world through theirown lens.
When kids are very young,everything is about seeing the
world through their own lens andthey don't understand.
They can't put somebody intheir self, into somebody else's
shoes, so it's really hard forthem to be empathetic in that
manner.
That's a really important thingwhen it comes to digital
(06:16):
technology.
So when they approach that 12to 13 year age range, they start
being able to do abstractthinking, which is, you know,
thinking about the consequencesof their actions, what someone
else might be feeling, andthat's a prerequisite for
ethical thinking.
What's really interesting isthat if you do the research
there's, some people never reachthat higher realm of you know.
(06:37):
Go online and you'll have greatexamples, right, so you know.
But that's what we want ourkids to achieve is to be able to
be an ethical thinker and to bekind and thoughtful about the
things they do and say I lovethat because that is part of
being human right.
Delina McPhaull (06:55):
So I I love this quote that you have in your
book.
While technology has alteredthe world, it hasn't altered the
time it takes a child's brainto develop the ability to use
technology well.
Diana Graber (07:05):
So true yeah.
I understand why those wordstoday, because it kills me when
I read articles about kids thatare on social media networks and
they're not 13 yet.
So they've lied about their ageand they've been cyber bullied.
In some cases they've killedthemselves because of things
they've done or seen online.
And I'm thinking, you know, ifwe did one simple thing as
(07:28):
parents and we held off socialmedia or any connected devices
until the child's brain wasready for it, it would solve 99%
of our problems.
Wow.
Delina McPhaull (07:39):
Wow.
So what do you think are someof the ways that technology
short circuits this quest to behuman?
Diana Graber (07:47):
Yeah, Like what does it do?
I mean that's a great.
I'm going to turn that around alittle bit because I think it
can augment it too.
I think that if we learn thetime and place to use our
devices to connect with eachother and the time and place not
to need a device to do that, Ithink of that in terms of our
lessons, and I was just goingthrough the lessons yesterday
(08:08):
and I was reminded by one that Ireally love.
It's our lesson about emailetiquette.
Reminded by one that I reallylove.
It's our lesson about emailetiquette.
And the activity in that lessonis we say, okay, just think of
instances in which it would bebetter to text than to call, or
think of instances that would bebetter to be face-to-face
rather than text, and have thechildren think of all the
different ways there are tocommunicate and what kind of
(08:30):
things are appropriate to eachmethod.
And so I think that's the waywe need to look at it now,
because connected devices aresuch a part of our life.
They serve a time and purpose,but in some places they get in
the way and we need to help ourkids discover what those places
are.
Delina McPhaull (08:47):
Oh, wow, I love that you write that from all
the experts you talk to for yourbook.
Most of them said that if theycould equip kids with one
digital superpower, it would beempathy.
Will you talk to me about that?
Diana Graber (09:02):
Yeah, I mean gosh.
So much of what we see onlineand so many of the problems,
especially between teens, Ithink is just a problem of not
really thinking through how theother person is feeling from
what you say or do, whether it'sjust simple digital drama or an
unkind comment or a picturethat might be hurtful If we
(09:24):
start to have and kids aregenerally pretty empathetic in
the real world.
That's why I love to doactivities related to digital
media education in the realworld first.
First, because they start tosee the consequences of your
actions.
They see how a mean commenthurts somebody by the expression
on the face.
So developing that empatheticmuscle I think is really
(09:46):
important before kids go onlineso that they might think twice
how something might feel to theperson on the other end of the
screen.
Delina McPhaull (09:54):
That's interesting.
So because they're interactingonline and they don't see or
feel that other person, it'shard for them to put themselves
in another person's shoes.
Right, and I?
Diana Graber (10:11):
think something that teens love to do is sarcasm
.
Sarcasm, yeah, and in the realworld we use it, we laugh, we
know we're being sarcastic.
That just does not read wellonline and there's been so many
you know problems that haveemanated from that, and so that
goes hand in hand with empathy.
To think about gosh, how mighthow might that read, I wonder if
(10:31):
that's why they developedemojis, exactly yeah.
There was a study about emojisand how it's impossible to
create enough emojis toreplicate what the human face
can do.
Wow, isn't that crazy?
Wow, yeah, we can relate somuch more with our own human
face than an emoji ever could.
(10:58):
How do you think we can help ourchild's capacity for empathy?
Well, I think, oh gosh, I mean,there's so many ways.
We, you know that's aface-to-face human thing that
you just have to practice.
You know, I mean from theminute a child's in a sandbox
and they take their friend's toyand the friend starts crying,
you know that's a lesson inempathy, right?
So think about that.
You know a five-year-old,four-year-olds, are spending
(11:20):
time in front of a screen whenthey should be spending time in
the sandbox watching thatinteraction happen.
That kids used to do.
They should keep doing those asmuch as possible, as often as
possible, because that's what'sbuilding empathy and a lot more
of these human traits that wewant our kids to have before
they go online.
Delina McPhaull (11:42):
So you, you, you, encourage parents to
develop these things before theygo online, but when is it?
Ever before In the womb.
Diana Graber (11:56):
These days pretty much right.
I know and I think you knowthat brings us to the point that
you know, I know it's reallyhard for parents of infants and
young children because we'rebusy and there's time and all
that, but as much as possible toremember that the skills kids
need most are face-to-face.
You know, being read to, talkedto, played with All of those
(12:18):
basic skills builds a strongfoundation of being a human and
those skills will become soimportant when the child finally
does go online.
So as much as you can buildthat into the day, it will pay
off later yeah.
Delina McPhaull (12:33):
And, as homeschooling parents know,
there's definitely enough hoursin the day to do all of it.
Yeah, those days get long, okay.
So how do you, how do youadvise parents to teach media
literacy skills to theirchildren, homeschooling or not?
Diana Graber (12:51):
Yeah, so that's a tough one because, you know and
I like to call it digitalliteracy because we kind of
think it's built of a lot ofdifferent things we break it
down to digital citizenship,information literacy and media
literacy and, honestly, it's alittle bit hard for parents to
teach these skills themselvesbecause there's so many, you
know, and that's why wedeveloped a curriculum to make
(13:13):
it super easy for parents toknow what to teach.
So what the best thing a parentcan do is model wise use of
technology, and what I mean bythat is, you know, be mindful
about, when you pick up thedevice, what you use it for.
You know, with a young child,if you do have to look at your
cell phone, say, I'm using mycell phone to call grandma, do
you want to do it with me?
Or I'm using cell phone to lookup a recipe that we're going to
(13:35):
cook together at dinner.
So modeling, explaining all ofthat, is teaching media or
digital literacy.
Delina McPhaull (13:44):
Okay, what?
Tell me more about thecurriculum and how a parent can
use it?
Diana Graber (13:56):
So.
So this is exactly why wedeveloped the curriculum and and
just as a little backstory, sowhen my kids were attending this
um homeschool for lazy parents,I had just finished my program
and, um, there was a littlecyber bullying incidents, which
really wasn't cyber bullying, itwas digital drama, but it's
still.
It just like blew everything up, like parents are like, oh, oh,
my gosh, there's going to bemore of this.
Feelings are hurt, what do wedo?
What's Facebook?
All of this?
(14:16):
So I was able to use what I hadlearned in my program to start
teaching these lessons to kids.
So we started out with a year ofdigital citizenship in sixth
grade, which is the safe andresponsible use of digital tools
, and it was really powerful.
(14:38):
When we finished that firstyear, we realized, okay, we've
taught the kids how to be safe,but that is just dropping the
bucket.
There's so much more you needto know.
So we added on another year ofinformation literacy, which is
knowing how to find, analyze,use and retrieve or something
like that information online.
So it's basically about youknow how to use Google, now that
we have chat, gpt, how to usethat ethically and safely, how
to maintain your privacybasically, how to use the
(14:59):
internet to learn to research.
And then the final year that weadded was media literacy, and
that's using critical thinkingskills to analyze media messages
.
So that includes everythingfrom visual literacy to
misinformation, to deep fakes,et cetera.
So that includes everythingfrom visual literacy to
misinformation, to deep fakes,et cetera.
So that's our middle schoolcurriculum.
It's really comprehensive.
There's less than a weekthroughout the entirety of
(15:21):
middle school.
And then people were saying,well, what do you do for fourth
and fifth grade?
Because kids are going onlineso young, and so we maintain
that kids should wait until 12or 13, 13 before they, you know,
join social media.
But we decided to do lessonsfor the younger kids that are
based on values, and I reallylove it and it's so great for
homeschoolers because it'sbasically turnkey.
(15:43):
There's a video and thenthere's a little activity, but
basically we cover all thevalues you know kindness,
honesty, responsibility,self-discipline and we talk
about what does the value looklike in the real world?
Now, what does it look likeonline?
And so we go through all ofthose and then there's just
basic lessons on how to search,work, what is the internet, you
(16:04):
know?
How do you stay safe?
How do you make a good password, just basic things that a
younger child might need to know.
So it's really.
I think we're like up to 140lessons now.
Delina McPhaull (16:21):
Oh, wow, I love that.
I love that Because so many ofthem have grown up with this
just being part of their life.
You know, you don't usuallyteach kids like what is water?
You just, it's just water.
Diana Graber (16:32):
And you know there's a great.
You know the great mediatheorist, marshall McLuhan, way
back when, said you know, atfirst all new technology shakes
up our world and then it becomesinvisible.
Delina McPhaull (16:44):
And.
Diana Graber (16:45):
I think that's so true, but before it becomes
invisible, we should really takea hard look at it and see what
we like about it and what wedon't like about it.
And it's perfectly applicableto AI.
Right now, you know AI is goingto be invisible really quick if
it's not, and kids right nowshould be taking a good hard
look at it to see what it isthey like and what they don't
like and how it works and all ofthat.
Delina McPhaull (17:06):
Yes, and that ties in perfectly to your notion
of becoming human, because it'smore important to be human now
that AI can do everything else.
Yeah, exactly.
Diana Graber (17:20):
So we have a lot of what we call AI literacy
lessons woven into thecurriculum now.
Delina McPhaull (17:24):
Oh, you do, you do.
What kind of conversations doyou think that are important to
have with teens?
Oh, boy.
About.
What About digital life?
Diana Graber (17:36):
Yes, I mean, how long do you have?
I know, I mean we try to dothis right as they enter
teenagehood because there's somuch I'm going to bore you right
now, but they should know abouttheir digital reputation, about
cyberbullying, digital drama,sexting, sextortion, revenge,
porn, misinformation,disinformation, fake nudes, deep
(17:58):
fakes, visual literacy,stereotypes, privacy, personal
information filter bubbles, somuch.
I mean, I'll go on for the hourif you like, but that's what I
mean.
There's a lot there, and that'swhy it's hard for a parent to
know what to cover, and so wetry to piece these together in a
(18:19):
way that's reallydevelopmentally appropriate and
builds upon skills that mean inthe online world.
Well, when you're a citizen,what does your online presence
look like and what is yourdigital reputation?
And then building, building,building, building, until you
finally get to the really toughstuff, you know.
Delina McPhaull (18:39):
Wow, wow.
I feel, like you need to dosome some adult, some lessons
for adults, yeah.
Diana Graber (18:48):
Well, what's nice about the curriculum is, with
every lesson there's a homeactivity that parent and child
can do together.
So we call that the trickle uptheory, so that the parents, by
teaching this curriculum, theywill learn so much.
Yes, yes.
Delina McPhaull (19:06):
I love that Now we see many adults being swayed
by misinformation and beingugly to each other online, like
you mentioned before, orchoosing phones over the people
around them.
How do you, as an adult and asa parent, homeschool yourself
and continue to stay human in adigital world?
Diana Graber (19:28):
It's getting harder and harder, isn't it?
I mean, that's such a goodquestion, I think.
More face-to-face time, youknow, more human connection, all
of that we need more.
Walk away from the devices,take breaks, you know it's
pretty toxic out there.
Yeah, Be really mindful of whatyou decide to look at.
Especially, be mindful of whatyou like and share.
(19:50):
It's like a vote.
We don't want to amplifymisinformation or bad
information or mean things, andand that's the problem with, I
think, social media is that youknow, as humans, we're primed to
react to things that areinflammatory.
Yes, and we have to know thatand stop ourselves.
(20:10):
You know, don't just read aheadline.
I mean, headlines are made tobait you and get you inside it.
That's what they're designed todo to sell advertising.
So, you know, do what we teachthe kids to do Read the go to
read the article.
Open a second tab on yourbrowser, look up the author.
Is this like a real you knowexpert, or is it just some you
(20:32):
know person somewhere tweetingor texting something they think?
Number one.
Number two look at theirsources, like if someone's
saying things, find out wherethey got their information.
Is it a verifiable source?
Yes, and then, third, see whatother people are saying about
the information.
See if that information isbeing debunked somewhere else.
Announcer (20:55):
So it's a lot of work it takes work?
Diana Graber (20:57):
Yep, it's work, but it's such important work
because I mean misinformation.
Disinformation is so rampant.
We've got to.
It's up to us to stop it.
There's nothing else that'sgoing to stop it.
Delina McPhaull (21:09):
An outage, internet outage, an internet
outage.
The three things that you justmentioned are those related to
that CRAAP acronym that you havein your book.
Diana Graber (21:25):
You know what?
The CRAAP acronym, which Ithought was wonderful that's
sort of been put out to pastureoh has it.
And it's been replaced by somewonderful research that was done
by the Stanford HistoryEducation Group.
And the three things that Ijust described to you is the way
that real fact checkers youknow at reputable organizations
that's how they checkinformation, and so that's now
(21:47):
what we're teaching kids to do.
Delina McPhaull (21:49):
Okay, perfect kids to do.
Okay, perfect.
So how can people connect withyou and maybe get a sample
lesson for their digitalliteracy lessons at home?
Diana Graber (21:59):
Oh boy, I mean, they're welcome to look at the
website.
It's cyber civicscom.
They're welcome to email ussupport at cyber civicscom or
call us.
There's a phone number on thewebsite.
But I did want to say we offera pretty great special for
homeschoolers.
Oh, it's a significant discountand it's like a three-year
license so they can get throughthe entirety of the curriculum.
(22:19):
So, um, and they'll find it onthe website.
We have a little page just forhomeschoolers.
So I love that and it's thesame curriculum that schools use
.
But there's a guide in therethat tells homeschoolers how to
adapt it for one up to 10 kidsand the way the license works.
It's for up to 10 kids becausewe know a lot of times families
(22:39):
teach their children together.
Delina McPhaull (22:41):
Yes, I love that.
Thank you so much, yeah, and ittruly has been delightful to
talk to you.
I hope everyone picks up yourbook.
Thank you for joining us onHomeschool Yourself.
Thank you so much for having me.
I love the advice Diana gave totake stock in our own digital
consumption in order to stayhuman and model this for our
(23:01):
kids.
Most of us grew up in a lessmediated environment.
We know what it's like to behuman and the importance of
in-person connection.
Let's not let devices strip usof our humanity in fundamental
ways.
I'm encouraged to be moredeliberate and more intentional
about putting people overdevices and building in some
intentional connection in myhome.
(23:21):
I would love to hear whatnuggets you got from this
conversation that I had withDiana.
Would you email me?
My email is podcast atwokehomeschoolingcom.
Until next time, put the phonedown and go homeschool yourself
with a book.
Announcer (23:49):
Homeschool Yourself is a production of Woke
Homeschooling Inc.
Homeschool Yourself is aproduction of Woke Homeschooling
Inc.
For show notes and links tothings mentioned in the episode,
visit wokehomeschoolingcomslash podcast.
Woke Homeschooling empowersparents to teach their kids an
inclusive, truthful history.
We invite you to visit ourwebsite and download a sample of
the history curriculum we offerfor kids.
(24:09):
Visit us atwokehomeschoolingcom.
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