August 22, 2024 • 25 mins
Unlock the secrets to an inclusive homeschool curriculum with our special guest, Kelly Tudor, who shares indispensable advice on Native representation. Learn how to identify and avoid harmful stereotypes by sourcing materials directly from Native authors. Kelly guides us through recognizing legitimate authors by their nation affiliations and the red flags in nostalgic yet misleading books like "Little House on the Prairie" and "Island of the Blue Dolphins."
Together, we'll examine how to critically assess your current homeschool library and take actionable steps toward a more respectful and accurate portrayal of Native cultures.
The discussion broadens to include the impact of social media, Native news sources, and vibrant pop culture on our understanding of Native communities. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for creating a more informed and respectful educational experience.
For links and the transcript, visit wokehomeschooling.com/podcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Delina (00:00):
How can we avoid misrepresenting Native people in
our homeschools?
Can you trust that your librarydoesn't have books that
stereotype Native Americans andadvance harmful stereotypes?
How do you know if your currenthomeschool curriculum is
perpetuating the same issuestaught in traditional schools?
You've heard it said that youdon't know what you don't know,
(00:21):
and this is why it's importantto homeschool yourself.
Welcome to the podcast where welearn and unlearn.
I'm your host, delena.
You're about to listen to parttwo of my interview with Kelly
Tudor.
If you haven't listened to thefirst part, I invite you to
pause here and listen to episodefive, where Kelly and I talk
about how stereotypes anderasure and misinformation about
(00:43):
who Native Americans are todayand in history is harmful.
In this episode, kelly gives uspractical ways we can make sure
we're stopping the cycle ofmiseducation in our homeschools.
She also offers resources toguide us.
Take a listen.
What advice would you give aparent who's going to the
library?
You know, does a book haul?
What things should they lookfor?
Kelly (01:07):
So I guess.
I mean, I always tell mystudents, kids and adults the
best way to learn about us isdirectly from us, right?
We tell our stories best, youknow.
It's not that, like, nativeauthors can't make mistakes.
Of course we can, but the kindsof mistakes aren't the kinds
(01:30):
that are the basic info or, youknow, like the general ideas.
You know, we're not going tostereotype ourselves, you know,
and so, and it's not thatthere's no non-native authors
out there that can write correctabout us.
There's a few, but for the mostpart, you know, trying to avoid
(02:00):
books by non-Native authors ingeneral, and using books and
materials made by Native people.
A lot of the classics and a lotof the books that adults have
so much nostalgia over arehorrible.
They're so, so horrible,they're racist, they're full of
stereotypes, misinformation,they call it name names people.
Oh, I mean lots of really reallypopular books like um gosh I
don't know the little housepeople are so nostalgic about
(02:23):
those but Sign of the Beaver andthe Paul Goebel books like the
Girl who Loved Wild Horses,those, those picture books, paul
Goebel, those are reallypopular and they're not.
They're not good.
Trying to think some of theothers Island of the Blue
(02:44):
Dolphins, that one's reallypopular.
Walk Two Moons, the MagicTreehouse books there's several
really terrible Magic Treehousebooks that you know just, and
there's there's so many booksthat people have so much
nostalgia over in their past andthey're just really, they're
really awful at how theyrepresent and present Native
people.
Delina (03:01):
But how do you do when you read somebody's biography on
uh in the in a book?
Like you know, the back of thebook tells about the author.
They they will usually say thatthey're a native author yeah,
um, I mean usually they'll.
Kelly (03:19):
If they're legitimately a native author, they'll usually
be identified by their nation,like, like, if, if there was an
about about me kind of thing inin a book somewhere, it wouldn't
say you know, kelly is nativeamerican, it would say kelly is
lipan apache, right.
And so you can actually usuallytell if somebody's like um in
in those about the author kindof things it says, like the
(03:39):
person is, um, you know, partnative american or something,
versus like the person is fromyou know part Native American or
something, versus like theperson is from you know the
Lippant Apache tribe of Texas,right.
Like, identifying by nation isa really, really key element of
those things, because Nativepeople we identify with our
nation first, and so that'susually what's going to be found
(04:01):
in those, something that'sreally common.
There's some really popularbooks by non-Native authors
about Natives or folktales andstuff, and there's this really
common theme that you'll find inthe About the Authors that'll
say something about like youknow, gerald McDermott was
fascinated with Indians orfascinated with Native American
(04:23):
folktales, or so-and-so wasfascinated with Indians from an
early age.
That word fascinated shows up alot in those author bios.
I, I'm serious, it's there,it's there all the time, like
it's.
It's really patronizing too.
Like you know that we're justsomething to be fascinated with,
right, um, but you see that,and, and so key words like that,
(04:44):
like the author is Indian orAmerican, or they're fascinated,
right, that's a hit that youknow that's probably not a good
one, right, whereas if itidentifies a person by their
nation, then that's probablygoing to be legitimate and much
better.
Delina (05:00):
Yeah, you're usually not fascinated by your own.
Yeah, you're usually notfascinated by your own, by your
own story.
What resources would yourecommend for parents to educate
themselves?
I like to say, you know,homeschooling parents need to
(05:20):
homeschool, homeschool yourself,right yeah.
Kelly (05:25):
We're always um, yeah, for sure, um.
So definitely the best place tostart would be like the
websites of native nations,specifically, if you want to.
So, first of all, like a lot oftimes, people learn about
native peoples like the nativeamericans, like all together,
like as if we're some like theNative Americans.
You know, um, and you see thata lot too.
(05:48):
Like you know, the NativeAmericans did this, or the
Native Americans did that, orwhatever, um, but you know,
there's over 600 Native Nationsin the United States alone and
we're all different and we allhave different histories, even
um, and so you all havedifferent um.
There's some language familieswhere you'll have similarities
(06:08):
and dialects within nations thatare very close and similar, but
, yes, different languages,different traditions, different
cultures, different foods,values, religions, histories you
know all of it.
So we're all different andevery Native Nation is unique.
So, you know, first, first ofall, learn the names of native
nations and then go to theirwebsites and learn directly from
those nations, like, oh, welive in the homelands of such
(06:31):
and such nation.
Let's go and find that nation'swebsite and then they're going
to have a lot of information,usually um.
So that's, you know, really oneof the first places to start.
Um, I really love the resourcesat Oyateorg that's O-Y-A-T-Eorg
.
They have some really greatresources.
One of them is called how toTell the Difference and it's a
(06:53):
guide to evaluating children'sbooks and literature for these
issues.
They also have an additionalcriteria guide that goes along
with that, and then on theirwebsite they have a resources
tab that also has some otherreally great resources and
information, some specifics likeabout Thanksgiving and that
kind of thing, as well as theirliving stories.
I really love their livingstories because they're about
the experiences of Native kidsin education and so those are
(07:15):
really great as well.
So oefkaorg is a reallywonderful site, especially that
how to Tell the Difference guide.
I use that a lot to in teaching, especially training teachers.
American Indians and Children'sLiterature blog by Debbie Reese.
She has a lot of really greatreviews and she'll she'll say
not recommended or recommended.
You know she reviews a lot ofthings.
(07:37):
You know places to find goodNative made materials and books
would be like strongnationscom,eaglespeakercom,
birchbarkbookscom and, you know,even like the National Museum
of the American Indian has aneducation website called Native
(08:00):
Knowledge 360.
That's amazing.
That has a lot of reallyawesome stuff, especially their
essential understandings.
Those are fantastic, especiallyeven for adults just to educate
themselves to, because theydon't even have those essential
understandings.
Um, and so you know, using thenative knowledge 360 is a great
resource.
Um, illuminatives is a newerorganization that puts out a lot
of really great educationalstuff.
(08:21):
Um, then, like specific books, Idefinitely recommend An
Indigenous People's History ofthe United States.
I know a lot of parents want touse the young people's version
for their kids, but I recommendadults reading the unabridged,
the adult version.
It's so much more detail andthere's a lot packed in there.
So An Indigenous People'sHistory of the United States is
(08:43):
a fantastic resource For youngerkids, younger kids.
A kid's guide to nativeAmerican history is a really
good book.
Um, and another one by RoxanneDunbar Ortiz, who wrote the
indigenous people's history.
Um is all the real Indians diedoff and it's myths and
stereotypes.
Um, and also another one,american Indian stereotypes and
realities, is a good book.
Um, just kind of addressingsome of those things that a lot
(09:06):
of people think about us.
Atlas of Indian Nations is aNative-made like not
encyclopedia, but a bigreference book about Native
nations.
Another big reference book wouldbe like American Indian
Contributions to the WorldReally good one as well.
That just shows how much we'vecontributed to the world.
Again, we're not just passiverecipients of history, but we've
(09:29):
been influencing things.
So you know books like that,and then you know even social
media Following like Nativepeople and Native influencers on
social media is a great way tolearn about us and to see what's
going on in our world.
Following Native news sourceslike Native News Online and
(09:53):
Indian Country Today Eventhere's like an entire subset of
TikTok that people call NativeTikTok.
That's got a lot of greatlittle one-minute videos where
you can learn so much.
My sister's got her own channeland it's a great source because
there's a lot of really awesomestuff about Native people out
there on that.
So social media, oddly enough,is a really great place to find
info about Native people, who weare, issues we're facing,
(10:14):
things like that, you know.
Following that stuff is a goodidea as well.
Delina (10:19):
So I want to ask this question, but I don't want to be
one of those people.
So you know, in anothersituation I'm the recipient of
the question.
Well, what do y'all like?
To be called now?
Or do you see what I'm saying?
Like I hear my thinking and howannoyed I am when I'm the
recipient.
So bear with me, but I feellike the average person, me
(10:42):
included, doesn't have even thelanguage, or like we don't know
enough to even ask the rightquestions or ask the right
questions in the right way.
We don't want to say somethingthat's offensive and sometimes
we silence ourselves because wewe don't even know Right.
We don't even know right andyou feel like you should know
(11:05):
right Because we've beencoexisting in the same space.
It's another nation.
It's just like if you went toanother nation and you don't
know anything and it feels weirdbecause we're even you and I
are in the same vicinity.
You know what I'm saying yeah,so it.
(11:27):
So it feels intimidating.
Yeah To, and and even you know,I asked you a bunch of
questions and I have to get overmyself asking the questions and
being open to correction.
Like just yesterday, I I wrotedown that you were a member and
you told me it's not member,it's citizen.
(11:48):
Like, do you see what I'msaying?
Like I wrote down that you werea member and you told me it's
not member, it's citizen.
Like do you see what I'm saying?
Like, even things like that, wedon't have the right language,
right, yeah, so what would yousay to those of us who want to
do right, but you know, justfeel intimidated by so much.
Like 600 nations.
(12:09):
I can't, I can't find out about600 nations.
Kelly (12:15):
You see, I'm saying, I mean, even people like me and
even people with like master'sdegrees and PhD in native
studies, can't tell youeverything about all 600 nations
, right?
Um, you know over 600.
Really.
There's 574 federallyrecognized nations and then
there's a lot more staterecognized and unrecognized that
are also legitimate nations,and so you know over 600 nations
(12:37):
, and even, even people with,like, phds in Native Studies
can't tell you everything aboutthose nations.
Or even, you know, I meetpeople sometimes that I'm like
I've only heard of that nationone time.
You know, and, and, and I teachnative studies and I'm a native
person, you know, and I'maround native people all the
time, right, I mean, I guess notall the time like you know,
aren't my community.
You know, this is my community,and and sometimes I even come
(13:00):
across things, like you know, Idon't know, because there's so
many nations.
It's just like trying to knowsomething about every, every
country in the world.
Right, you're not gonna, you'renot gonna be able to do that.
Nobody can.
Um, so you know, like I'vealready said, you know,
definitely, learn directly fromus, use books and materials made
by us.
Um, you know, try to unlearnwhat you were taught and relearn
using native made materials.
(13:21):
Um, you know, pick up somebooks for yourself to read,
follow social media pages,follow native news sources,
things like that, using thoseguides like I told you on OYKorg
, you know, using the how totell the difference and the
additional criteria.
And you know, pop cultureactually Native pop culture is
amazing and it's a really greatway to learn about us.
(13:43):
If you want to know about youngcontemporary native people,
jump into our pop culture.
There's music and sports andmovies and fashion and art and
comedy.
Um, even our memes, right, likeI, I could teach an entire
class about native memes.
I have over 900 on my phone.
Um, like, there's so much youcan actually pick up from our
pop culture.
Um, just about about us, andget an understanding, you know,
(14:06):
of who we are and and some ofthe issues we're facing and some
of our triumphs today too.
Um, and, like I said, nativeTikTok another great place.
But, you know, visit culturalcenters and museums run by
Native nations.
If you're near one.
Actually, you know, here inNorth Texas, just a couple hours
north, there's several inOklahoma, right, some cultural
(14:27):
centers.
There's a new one opening in acouple of weeks, I think.
And then there's also, you know, visiting community events that
are open to the public, likepowwows.
You know, most powwows are opento the public and they're a
really great way to just get inand interact with us and meet
native people and see us aspeople see us as contemporaries.
(14:48):
You know, people see us ascontemporaries.
You know, um, and so you know,just finding local native
community events that are publicevents and and interacting with
us and seeing our communitiesand, um, you know, spending time
with us, that's another greatway as well.
Um, I find a lot of timespeople I think are, um, either
(15:11):
most intimidated or have so muchmore misinformation and
ignorance about us when theyhave never interacted with us.
Right, but when you come andstart interacting with us, then,
you know, you start picking upon things and learning things
and learning how to ask thosequestions, you know, and so
that's a really great way.
It's just just interacting withnative communities and native
(15:33):
people but not just I.
Delina (15:36):
While you were talking, I'm like, okay, we need to pump
the brakes on two things, likeif, if I say kelly come to
dinner, I don't mean kelly cometo dinner to give us a native
american a native american, uhRight, you see what I'm saying?
Mm-hmm.
And the other thing is justbecause you know something and
(15:59):
you learn something, it doesn'tmean you get to appropriate that
it's not yours.
Kelly (16:04):
Right, and that's a big issue in with native communities
.
There's a big issue withcultural appropriation and
there's a lot of harm donethrough that.
So yeah, that's definitelyanother issue.
But you know, I think whenpeople learn from us directly,
using materials made by us andfollowing social media and
(16:26):
native news sources and thingslike that, I think people tend
to become more aware of thoseissues and start to learn.
You know what is and isn't okaythrough that, and so you know
even like okay, so powwowscomhas a national powwow calendar
and you can find local powwowsnear you.
But they also have a whole pageabout powwow etiquette, like
(16:48):
what's okay to do at powwows andwhat's not okay to do at
powwows, like what does thismean?
There's whole pages about whatis a powwow and what are the
dances and what's the regalia,and like you can learn a whole
bunch of stuff before going toone.
So you, you have an idea of,you know what's socially and
culturally acceptable and what'snot.
So you know.
So there are resources likethat out there.
(17:09):
You know, if you want to cometo a community event, you want
to come to a powwow, you know,go to powwowscom, find their
guide on powwow etiquette, youknow and kind of read through
that and understand what's okayand what's not okay, because we
do.
We do have different culturalunderstandings and different
cultural norms, norms and so youknow, trying to navigate those
can be difficult, so that's whythings like that exist.
So Awesome.
Delina (17:32):
Well, I just have a couple more questions.
What do you hope will be theresult of children growing up
with a better understanding ofnative people.
Kelly (17:45):
I mean, just on a personal level, how my kids are
treated.
Yeah, you know, I never wantedthem to experience all the
things that I grew upexperiencing and unfortunately
they have, even though theydon't go to public school,
because that's the way societystill is.
And, you know, things aresometimes improving and changing
in some areas, but in otherareas not.
(18:07):
And so just on a personal level, like just the way like my
community and my people and mykids and my family are treated
will hopefully get better, youknow.
And then, on a higher level,there, you know, the way that
we're portrayed in media and popculture and society will be
directed by us, like we'll beable to direct the education and
(18:30):
portrayals of ourselves ratherthan somebody else's ideas about
us.
And, you know, the issues thatwe're facing social justice
issues and civil rights issuesthat we're facing will hopefully
start to reduce and diminish.
You know, maybe we won't haveto face these issues as much.
You know, ultimately, hopefullythey'll go away, but I don't
(18:52):
know that that'll happen in mylifetime.
So, um, which is I?
I know that sounds kind ofdefeatist, but that I'm with you
.
I'm with you on this.
So I know, I know it soundsreally pessimistic and defeatist
and it's not a great thing, butespecially the older, we get
right, right, yeah.
so um know just that thosesocial changes will start
(19:13):
happening.
The way the government treatsus and the policies and laws and
issues of treaties andsovereignty and things like that
maybe will improve.
Like, deb Haaland was justappointed the very first ever
Native American cabinetsecretary.
She's over the Department ofthe Interior.
There's never been a nativesecretary over the Department of
the Interior and that's wherethe Bureau of the Interior.
(19:34):
There's never been a nativesecretary over the Department of
the Interior and that's wherethe Bureau of Indian Affairs
Right, and so the Bureau ofIndian Affairs, and we're
stuffed into the department withland and animals.
But we're there and there'sbeen a few native leaders of the
BIA, but not over theDepartment of Interior, and so
that's the first time.
And so now Deb Haaland is likewe're all excited and she could
do amazing things, but at thesame time she's going to receive
(19:54):
a lot of pushback and not beable to accomplish everything
she wants to.
Um, and I'm hoping maybe, asmore Native people get into
those kinds of positions, maybethose changes can start being
made, um, you know, and andthey'll get less pushback, you
know, and they'll be able toactually implement some things.
And so I think just societyoverall, in general, cultural
understanding and respect ofdifferent cultures and different
(20:17):
people, is going to improvesociety for everybody.
And you know, the way I teach mykids about other cultures and
other people is the same waythat I want people to learn
about mine and us you know, andso I use the ideas of how I know
people treat us and how peoplelearn about us, and I use those
ideas and I apply those to howmy kids interact with other
(20:41):
cultures and learn from othercultures.
And you know like we use Blackauthors and Asian authors and
Latino authors when we'relearning about those subjects
and those peoples and thosecultures.
You know, Because that makesthe most sense.
Just like when I tell peopleuse native authors, I'm going to
do the same thing for othercultures, and so I just I think
that the ideas of culturalunderstanding and equity and
(21:04):
respect can really have amassive impact on just how
everybody is treated andinteracts.
Delina (21:13):
Yep, let me tell you, what I hope will happen is not
just you know how, how, um, allof us, all of all people of
color, are treated in thiscountry, but justice, because
you got to fix all that stuffthat's been done in the past.
(21:33):
You know, it's not enough tojust say, okay, we're gonna do
better now, in to towards thefuture, and, um, y'all, y'all
need some land back and I thinkthat's why some people are
scared of the idea of likejustice for Native people is
because that means land back.
Kelly (21:54):
And then what?
What does that mean for otherpeople on this land?
Right, and I think that's why alot of people are really scared
of that concept, like with theSupreme Court ruling in Oklahoma
that actually returns like halfof Oklahoma back to Native
nations.
Like people are like okay, whathappens now?
And that's something thatpeople have to figure out.
But I think that's why yeah,because what can happen?
Delina (22:20):
I mean, how can we go forward without that?
You took it because it wasvaluable, so give it back
because it's valuable, right andmeaningful.
Kelly (22:34):
And then what does that look like?
What does that look like thenpolitically and socially and and
I think that's what whatintimidates people, but um yeah,
yeah, thank you so much, kelly,yeah well, you know.
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate the um, theopportunity to come on here and
talk with you, as well as beingable to work with you.
I know that early on, when Ifirst saw you know your, your
(22:56):
curriculum and stuff, I probablywasn't the most gracious about
some things and but I reallyappreciate that you've reached
out and that you've been workingwith me and that we've been
able to have this dialogue andlearn, you know, and work
through that.
So I do, I really do appreciatethat opportunity to be able to
do that, cause I know thatsometimes I can be, I can be
(23:18):
really upfront about some things, when, when certain you know,
when certain companies are are,you know, have have some things,
you know, issues and things andand I'm not always the most
gracious about it and I knowthat that can be tough, you know
.
So I I do appreciate youreaching out and being able to
to work with you on this.
Delina (23:36):
So yeah, I now I'm gonna go back because I I never saw
any of the comments.
Kelly (23:43):
No, I mean just just, you know, like just being able to
say like about companies, likeyeah, oh, this is this, this
book is problematic, this is anissue.
Oh, there's not.
You know, and and I don't knowthat I ever said anything like
harsh and terrible in me youknow, I you know, but, like the
internet, knows everything,right but just being able to
point out like, oh, there's,there's some issues here that
aren't okay and and I have somecompanies don't take that very
(24:08):
well and some do, and so Iappreciate that you were like
open to listening and and, um,you know, being able to like
work through this and make thosechanges, and I think that is
going to make your curriculum,um, that much better, but also
definitely something that can be, you know, recommended that I
can enthusiastically say, yes,this has, you know, native
(24:28):
voices in it.
Um, and so I do.
I really do appreciate that itreally shows the kind of company
that you are and the kind ofcompany that you're running and,
you know, shows that thatattitude of of being open and
learning and everything.
So I do appreciate that aboutthe work that you're doing.
Delina (24:47):
I appreciate you saying that.
Thank you.
What did you learn from theseinterviews with Kelly Tudor?
What do you think you can dobetter in your homeschool so
that you can ensure that you areusing great resources and not
continuing to perpetuate mythsand stereotypes in your
homeschool?
If you'd like a list of theresources mentioned in this
episode, head over towokehomeschoolingcom slash
(25:10):
podcast.
The show notes and transcriptsare there as a resource.
Until next time, go unlearnsomething today.
Announcer (25:19):
Homeschool Yourself is a production of Woke
Homeschooling Inc.
For show notes and links tothings mentioned in the episode,
visit wokehomeschoolingcomslash podcast.
Woke Homeschooling empowersparents to teach their kids an
inclusive, truthful history.
We invite you to visit ourwebsite and download a sample of
(25:41):
the history curriculum we offerfor kids.
Visit us atwokehomeschoolingcom.
How can we avoid misrepresenting Native people in
our homeschools?
Can you trust that your librarydoesn't have books that
stereotype Native Americans andadvance harmful stereotypes?
How do you know if your currenthomeschool curriculum is
perpetuating the same issuestaught in traditional schools?
You've heard it said that youdon't know what you don't know,
(00:21):
and this is why it's importantto homeschool yourself.
Welcome to the podcast where welearn and unlearn.
I'm your host, delena.
You're about to listen to parttwo of my interview with Kelly
Tudor.
If you haven't listened to thefirst part, I invite you to
pause here and listen to episodefive, where Kelly and I talk
about how stereotypes anderasure and misinformation about
(00:43):
who Native Americans are todayand in history is harmful.
In this episode, kelly gives uspractical ways we can make sure
we're stopping the cycle ofmiseducation in our homeschools.
She also offers resources toguide us.
Take a listen.
What advice would you give aparent who's going to the
library?
You know, does a book haul?
What things should they lookfor?
Kelly (01:07):
So I guess.
I mean, I always tell mystudents, kids and adults the
best way to learn about us isdirectly from us, right?
We tell our stories best, youknow.
It's not that, like, nativeauthors can't make mistakes.
Of course we can, but the kindsof mistakes aren't the kinds
(01:30):
that are the basic info or, youknow, like the general ideas.
You know, we're not going tostereotype ourselves, you know,
and so, and it's not thatthere's no non-native authors
out there that can write correctabout us.
There's a few, but for the mostpart, you know, trying to avoid
(02:00):
books by non-Native authors ingeneral, and using books and
materials made by Native people.
A lot of the classics and a lotof the books that adults have
so much nostalgia over arehorrible.
They're so, so horrible,they're racist, they're full of
stereotypes, misinformation,they call it name names people.
Oh, I mean lots of really reallypopular books like um gosh I
don't know the little housepeople are so nostalgic about
(02:23):
those but Sign of the Beaver andthe Paul Goebel books like the
Girl who Loved Wild Horses,those, those picture books, paul
Goebel, those are reallypopular and they're not.
They're not good.
Trying to think some of theothers Island of the Blue
(02:44):
Dolphins, that one's reallypopular.
Walk Two Moons, the MagicTreehouse books there's several
really terrible Magic Treehousebooks that you know just, and
there's there's so many booksthat people have so much
nostalgia over in their past andthey're just really, they're
really awful at how theyrepresent and present Native
people.
Delina (03:01):
But how do you do when you read somebody's biography on
uh in the in a book?
Like you know, the back of thebook tells about the author.
They they will usually say thatthey're a native author yeah,
um, I mean usually they'll.
Kelly (03:19):
If they're legitimately a native author, they'll usually
be identified by their nation,like, like, if, if there was an
about about me kind of thing inin a book somewhere, it wouldn't
say you know, kelly is nativeamerican, it would say kelly is
lipan apache, right.
And so you can actually usuallytell if somebody's like um in
in those about the author kindof things it says, like the
(03:39):
person is, um, you know, partnative american or something,
versus like the person is fromyou know part Native American or
something, versus like theperson is from you know the
Lippant Apache tribe of Texas,right.
Like, identifying by nation isa really, really key element of
those things, because Nativepeople we identify with our
nation first, and so that'susually what's going to be found
(04:01):
in those, something that'sreally common.
There's some really popularbooks by non-Native authors
about Natives or folktales andstuff, and there's this really
common theme that you'll find inthe About the Authors that'll
say something about like youknow, gerald McDermott was
fascinated with Indians orfascinated with Native American
(04:23):
folktales, or so-and-so wasfascinated with Indians from an
early age.
That word fascinated shows up alot in those author bios.
I, I'm serious, it's there,it's there all the time, like
it's.
It's really patronizing too.
Like you know that we're justsomething to be fascinated with,
right, um, but you see that,and, and so key words like that,
(04:44):
like the author is Indian orAmerican, or they're fascinated,
right, that's a hit that youknow that's probably not a good
one, right, whereas if itidentifies a person by their
nation, then that's probablygoing to be legitimate and much
better.
Delina (05:00):
Yeah, you're usually not fascinated by your own.
Yeah, you're usually notfascinated by your own, by your
own story.
What resources would yourecommend for parents to educate
themselves?
I like to say, you know,homeschooling parents need to
(05:20):
homeschool, homeschool yourself,right yeah.
Kelly (05:25):
We're always um, yeah, for sure, um.
So definitely the best place tostart would be like the
websites of native nations,specifically, if you want to.
So, first of all, like a lot oftimes, people learn about
native peoples like the nativeamericans, like all together,
like as if we're some like theNative Americans.
You know, um, and you see thata lot too.
(05:48):
Like you know, the NativeAmericans did this, or the
Native Americans did that, orwhatever, um, but you know,
there's over 600 Native Nationsin the United States alone and
we're all different and we allhave different histories, even
um, and so you all havedifferent um.
There's some language familieswhere you'll have similarities
(06:08):
and dialects within nations thatare very close and similar, but
, yes, different languages,different traditions, different
cultures, different foods,values, religions, histories you
know all of it.
So we're all different andevery Native Nation is unique.
So, you know, first, first ofall, learn the names of native
nations and then go to theirwebsites and learn directly from
those nations, like, oh, welive in the homelands of such
(06:31):
and such nation.
Let's go and find that nation'swebsite and then they're going
to have a lot of information,usually um.
So that's, you know, really oneof the first places to start.
Um, I really love the resourcesat Oyateorg that's O-Y-A-T-Eorg
.
They have some really greatresources.
One of them is called how toTell the Difference and it's a
(06:53):
guide to evaluating children'sbooks and literature for these
issues.
They also have an additionalcriteria guide that goes along
with that, and then on theirwebsite they have a resources
tab that also has some otherreally great resources and
information, some specifics likeabout Thanksgiving and that
kind of thing, as well as theirliving stories.
I really love their livingstories because they're about
the experiences of Native kidsin education and so those are
(07:15):
really great as well.
So oefkaorg is a reallywonderful site, especially that
how to Tell the Difference guide.
I use that a lot to in teaching, especially training teachers.
American Indians and Children'sLiterature blog by Debbie Reese.
She has a lot of really greatreviews and she'll she'll say
not recommended or recommended.
You know she reviews a lot ofthings.
(07:37):
You know places to find goodNative made materials and books
would be like strongnationscom,eaglespeakercom,
birchbarkbookscom and, you know,even like the National Museum
of the American Indian has aneducation website called Native
(08:00):
Knowledge 360.
That's amazing.
That has a lot of reallyawesome stuff, especially their
essential understandings.
Those are fantastic, especiallyeven for adults just to educate
themselves to, because theydon't even have those essential
understandings.
Um, and so you know, using thenative knowledge 360 is a great
resource.
Um, illuminatives is a newerorganization that puts out a lot
of really great educationalstuff.
(08:21):
Um, then, like specific books, Idefinitely recommend An
Indigenous People's History ofthe United States.
I know a lot of parents want touse the young people's version
for their kids, but I recommendadults reading the unabridged,
the adult version.
It's so much more detail andthere's a lot packed in there.
So An Indigenous People'sHistory of the United States is
(08:43):
a fantastic resource For youngerkids, younger kids.
A kid's guide to nativeAmerican history is a really
good book.
Um, and another one by RoxanneDunbar Ortiz, who wrote the
indigenous people's history.
Um is all the real Indians diedoff and it's myths and
stereotypes.
Um, and also another one,american Indian stereotypes and
realities, is a good book.
Um, just kind of addressingsome of those things that a lot
(09:06):
of people think about us.
Atlas of Indian Nations is aNative-made like not
encyclopedia, but a bigreference book about Native
nations.
Another big reference book wouldbe like American Indian
Contributions to the WorldReally good one as well.
That just shows how much we'vecontributed to the world.
Again, we're not just passiverecipients of history, but we've
(09:29):
been influencing things.
So you know books like that,and then you know even social
media Following like Nativepeople and Native influencers on
social media is a great way tolearn about us and to see what's
going on in our world.
Following Native news sourceslike Native News Online and
(09:53):
Indian Country Today Eventhere's like an entire subset of
TikTok that people call NativeTikTok.
That's got a lot of greatlittle one-minute videos where
you can learn so much.
My sister's got her own channeland it's a great source because
there's a lot of really awesomestuff about Native people out
there on that.
So social media, oddly enough,is a really great place to find
info about Native people, who weare, issues we're facing,
(10:14):
things like that, you know.
Following that stuff is a goodidea as well.
Delina (10:19):
So I want to ask this question, but I don't want to be
one of those people.
So you know, in anothersituation I'm the recipient of
the question.
Well, what do y'all like?
To be called now?
Or do you see what I'm saying?
Like I hear my thinking and howannoyed I am when I'm the
recipient.
So bear with me, but I feellike the average person, me
(10:42):
included, doesn't have even thelanguage, or like we don't know
enough to even ask the rightquestions or ask the right
questions in the right way.
We don't want to say somethingthat's offensive and sometimes
we silence ourselves because wewe don't even know Right.
We don't even know right andyou feel like you should know
(11:05):
right Because we've beencoexisting in the same space.
It's another nation.
It's just like if you went toanother nation and you don't
know anything and it feels weirdbecause we're even you and I
are in the same vicinity.
You know what I'm saying yeah,so it.
(11:27):
So it feels intimidating.
Yeah To, and and even you know,I asked you a bunch of
questions and I have to get overmyself asking the questions and
being open to correction.
Like just yesterday, I I wrotedown that you were a member and
you told me it's not member,it's citizen.
(11:48):
Like, do you see what I'msaying?
Like I wrote down that you werea member and you told me it's
not member, it's citizen.
Like do you see what I'm saying?
Like, even things like that, wedon't have the right language,
right, yeah, so what would yousay to those of us who want to
do right, but you know, justfeel intimidated by so much.
Like 600 nations.
(12:09):
I can't, I can't find out about600 nations.
Kelly (12:15):
You see, I'm saying, I mean, even people like me and
even people with like master'sdegrees and PhD in native
studies, can't tell youeverything about all 600 nations
, right?
Um, you know over 600.
Really.
There's 574 federallyrecognized nations and then
there's a lot more staterecognized and unrecognized that
are also legitimate nations,and so you know over 600 nations
(12:37):
, and even, even people with,like, phds in Native Studies
can't tell you everything aboutthose nations.
Or even, you know, I meetpeople sometimes that I'm like
I've only heard of that nationone time.
You know, and, and, and I teachnative studies and I'm a native
person, you know, and I'maround native people all the
time, right, I mean, I guess notall the time like you know,
aren't my community.
You know, this is my community,and and sometimes I even come
(13:00):
across things, like you know, Idon't know, because there's so
many nations.
It's just like trying to knowsomething about every, every
country in the world.
Right, you're not gonna, you'renot gonna be able to do that.
Nobody can.
Um, so you know, like I'vealready said, you know,
definitely, learn directly fromus, use books and materials made
by us.
Um, you know, try to unlearnwhat you were taught and relearn
using native made materials.
(13:21):
Um, you know, pick up somebooks for yourself to read,
follow social media pages,follow native news sources,
things like that, using thoseguides like I told you on OYKorg
, you know, using the how totell the difference and the
additional criteria.
And you know, pop cultureactually Native pop culture is
amazing and it's a really greatway to learn about us.
(13:43):
If you want to know about youngcontemporary native people,
jump into our pop culture.
There's music and sports andmovies and fashion and art and
comedy.
Um, even our memes, right, likeI, I could teach an entire
class about native memes.
I have over 900 on my phone.
Um, like, there's so much youcan actually pick up from our
pop culture.
Um, just about about us, andget an understanding, you know,
(14:06):
of who we are and and some ofthe issues we're facing and some
of our triumphs today too.
Um, and, like I said, nativeTikTok another great place.
But, you know, visit culturalcenters and museums run by
Native nations.
If you're near one.
Actually, you know, here inNorth Texas, just a couple hours
north, there's several inOklahoma, right, some cultural
(14:27):
centers.
There's a new one opening in acouple of weeks, I think.
And then there's also, you know, visiting community events that
are open to the public, likepowwows.
You know, most powwows are opento the public and they're a
really great way to just get inand interact with us and meet
native people and see us aspeople see us as contemporaries.
(14:48):
You know, people see us ascontemporaries.
You know, um, and so you know,just finding local native
community events that are publicevents and and interacting with
us and seeing our communitiesand, um, you know, spending time
with us, that's another greatway as well.
Um, I find a lot of timespeople I think are, um, either
(15:11):
most intimidated or have so muchmore misinformation and
ignorance about us when theyhave never interacted with us.
Right, but when you come andstart interacting with us, then,
you know, you start picking upon things and learning things
and learning how to ask thosequestions, you know, and so
that's a really great way.
It's just just interacting withnative communities and native
(15:33):
people but not just I.
Delina (15:36):
While you were talking, I'm like, okay, we need to pump
the brakes on two things, likeif, if I say kelly come to
dinner, I don't mean kelly cometo dinner to give us a native
american a native american, uhRight, you see what I'm saying?
Mm-hmm.
And the other thing is justbecause you know something and
(15:59):
you learn something, it doesn'tmean you get to appropriate that
it's not yours.
Kelly (16:04):
Right, and that's a big issue in with native communities
.
There's a big issue withcultural appropriation and
there's a lot of harm donethrough that.
So yeah, that's definitelyanother issue.
But you know, I think whenpeople learn from us directly,
using materials made by us andfollowing social media and
(16:26):
native news sources and thingslike that, I think people tend
to become more aware of thoseissues and start to learn.
You know what is and isn't okaythrough that, and so you know
even like okay, so powwowscomhas a national powwow calendar
and you can find local powwowsnear you.
But they also have a whole pageabout powwow etiquette, like
(16:48):
what's okay to do at powwows andwhat's not okay to do at
powwows, like what does thismean?
There's whole pages about whatis a powwow and what are the
dances and what's the regalia,and like you can learn a whole
bunch of stuff before going toone.
So you, you have an idea of,you know what's socially and
culturally acceptable and what'snot.
So you know.
So there are resources likethat out there.
(17:09):
You know, if you want to cometo a community event, you want
to come to a powwow, you know,go to powwowscom, find their
guide on powwow etiquette, youknow and kind of read through
that and understand what's okayand what's not okay, because we
do.
We do have different culturalunderstandings and different
cultural norms, norms and so youknow, trying to navigate those
can be difficult, so that's whythings like that exist.
So Awesome.
Delina (17:32):
Well, I just have a couple more questions.
What do you hope will be theresult of children growing up
with a better understanding ofnative people.
Kelly (17:45):
I mean, just on a personal level, how my kids are
treated.
Yeah, you know, I never wantedthem to experience all the
things that I grew upexperiencing and unfortunately
they have, even though theydon't go to public school,
because that's the way societystill is.
And, you know, things aresometimes improving and changing
in some areas, but in otherareas not.
(18:07):
And so just on a personal level, like just the way like my
community and my people and mykids and my family are treated
will hopefully get better, youknow.
And then, on a higher level,there, you know, the way that
we're portrayed in media and popculture and society will be
directed by us, like we'll beable to direct the education and
(18:30):
portrayals of ourselves ratherthan somebody else's ideas about
us.
And, you know, the issues thatwe're facing social justice
issues and civil rights issuesthat we're facing will hopefully
start to reduce and diminish.
You know, maybe we won't haveto face these issues as much.
You know, ultimately, hopefullythey'll go away, but I don't
(18:52):
know that that'll happen in mylifetime.
So, um, which is I?
I know that sounds kind ofdefeatist, but that I'm with you
.
I'm with you on this.
So I know, I know it soundsreally pessimistic and defeatist
and it's not a great thing, butespecially the older, we get
right, right, yeah.
so um know just that thosesocial changes will start
(19:13):
happening.
The way the government treatsus and the policies and laws and
issues of treaties andsovereignty and things like that
maybe will improve.
Like, deb Haaland was justappointed the very first ever
Native American cabinetsecretary.
She's over the Department ofthe Interior.
There's never been a nativesecretary over the Department of
the Interior and that's wherethe Bureau of the Interior.
(19:34):
There's never been a nativesecretary over the Department of
the Interior and that's wherethe Bureau of Indian Affairs
Right, and so the Bureau ofIndian Affairs, and we're
stuffed into the department withland and animals.
But we're there and there'sbeen a few native leaders of the
BIA, but not over theDepartment of Interior, and so
that's the first time.
And so now Deb Haaland is likewe're all excited and she could
do amazing things, but at thesame time she's going to receive
(19:54):
a lot of pushback and not beable to accomplish everything
she wants to.
Um, and I'm hoping maybe, asmore Native people get into
those kinds of positions, maybethose changes can start being
made, um, you know, and andthey'll get less pushback, you
know, and they'll be able toactually implement some things.
And so I think just societyoverall, in general, cultural
understanding and respect ofdifferent cultures and different
(20:17):
people, is going to improvesociety for everybody.
And you know, the way I teach mykids about other cultures and
other people is the same waythat I want people to learn
about mine and us you know, andso I use the ideas of how I know
people treat us and how peoplelearn about us, and I use those
ideas and I apply those to howmy kids interact with other
(20:41):
cultures and learn from othercultures.
And you know like we use Blackauthors and Asian authors and
Latino authors when we'relearning about those subjects
and those peoples and thosecultures.
You know, Because that makesthe most sense.
Just like when I tell peopleuse native authors, I'm going to
do the same thing for othercultures, and so I just I think
that the ideas of culturalunderstanding and equity and
(21:04):
respect can really have amassive impact on just how
everybody is treated andinteracts.
Delina (21:13):
Yep, let me tell you, what I hope will happen is not
just you know how, how, um, allof us, all of all people of
color, are treated in thiscountry, but justice, because
you got to fix all that stuffthat's been done in the past.
(21:33):
You know, it's not enough tojust say, okay, we're gonna do
better now, in to towards thefuture, and, um, y'all, y'all
need some land back and I thinkthat's why some people are
scared of the idea of likejustice for Native people is
because that means land back.
Kelly (21:54):
And then what?
What does that mean for otherpeople on this land?
Right, and I think that's why alot of people are really scared
of that concept, like with theSupreme Court ruling in Oklahoma
that actually returns like halfof Oklahoma back to Native
nations.
Like people are like okay, whathappens now?
And that's something thatpeople have to figure out.
But I think that's why yeah,because what can happen?
Delina (22:20):
I mean, how can we go forward without that?
You took it because it wasvaluable, so give it back
because it's valuable, right andmeaningful.
Kelly (22:34):
And then what does that look like?
What does that look like thenpolitically and socially and and
I think that's what whatintimidates people, but um yeah,
yeah, thank you so much, kelly,yeah well, you know.
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate the um, theopportunity to come on here and
talk with you, as well as beingable to work with you.
I know that early on, when Ifirst saw you know your, your
(22:56):
curriculum and stuff, I probablywasn't the most gracious about
some things and but I reallyappreciate that you've reached
out and that you've been workingwith me and that we've been
able to have this dialogue andlearn, you know, and work
through that.
So I do, I really do appreciatethat opportunity to be able to
do that, cause I know thatsometimes I can be, I can be
(23:18):
really upfront about some things, when, when certain you know,
when certain companies are are,you know, have have some things,
you know, issues and things andand I'm not always the most
gracious about it and I knowthat that can be tough, you know
.
So I I do appreciate youreaching out and being able to
to work with you on this.
Delina (23:36):
So yeah, I now I'm gonna go back because I I never saw
any of the comments.
Kelly (23:43):
No, I mean just just, you know, like just being able to
say like about companies, likeyeah, oh, this is this, this
book is problematic, this is anissue.
Oh, there's not.
You know, and and I don't knowthat I ever said anything like
harsh and terrible in me youknow, I you know, but, like the
internet, knows everything,right but just being able to
point out like, oh, there's,there's some issues here that
aren't okay and and I have somecompanies don't take that very
(24:08):
well and some do, and so Iappreciate that you were like
open to listening and and, um,you know, being able to like
work through this and make thosechanges, and I think that is
going to make your curriculum,um, that much better, but also
definitely something that can be, you know, recommended that I
can enthusiastically say, yes,this has, you know, native
(24:28):
voices in it.
Um, and so I do.
I really do appreciate that itreally shows the kind of company
that you are and the kind ofcompany that you're running and,
you know, shows that thatattitude of of being open and
learning and everything.
So I do appreciate that aboutthe work that you're doing.
Delina (24:47):
I appreciate you saying that.
Thank you.
What did you learn from theseinterviews with Kelly Tudor?
What do you think you can dobetter in your homeschool so
that you can ensure that you areusing great resources and not
continuing to perpetuate mythsand stereotypes in your
homeschool?
If you'd like a list of theresources mentioned in this
episode, head over towokehomeschoolingcom slash
(25:10):
podcast.
The show notes and transcriptsare there as a resource.
Until next time, go unlearnsomething today.
Announcer (25:19):
Homeschool Yourself is a production of Woke
Homeschooling Inc.
For show notes and links tothings mentioned in the episode,
visit wokehomeschoolingcomslash podcast.
Woke Homeschooling empowersparents to teach their kids an
inclusive, truthful history.
We invite you to visit ourwebsite and download a sample of
(25:41):
the history curriculum we offerfor kids.
Visit us atwokehomeschoolingcom.
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