October 2, 2025 • 51 mins
What if we've been approaching education all wrong? What if the race to cover more material, check more boxes, and meet arbitrary benchmarks is actually preventing our children from experiencing the deep, transformative learning they deserve?
Leslie Martino joins us to discuss her groundbreaking book "The Joy of Slow: Restoring Balance and Wonder to Homeschool Learning." With warmth and wisdom, she challenges our culture's obsession with educational productivity and offers a refreshing alternative that prioritizes depth over breadth, process over product, and connection over curriculum.
Drawing from her extensive experience as both an educator and homeschooling parent, Leslie explains what "slow" really means in education – not just taking more time, but fundamentally shifting how we approach learning. She addresses the fears that keep families trapped in educational rat races and shares powerful stories of how embracing self-directed interests creates rich learning environments. From her daughter's journey customizing toys to her own exploration of Florida Highwaymen artists, Leslie illustrates how organic curiosity leads to deeper, more meaningful educational experiences than any prescribed curriculum.
This conversation will resonate with anyone feeling the pressure to accelerate learning at the expense of joy and connection. Whether you homeschool, send your children to traditional school, or simply want to nurture the natural love of learning in your family, Leslie's insights will help you recalibrate your educational approach to reflect what truly matters. You'll walk away with practical strategies for slowing down, honoring the learning process, and creating space for wonder and discovery in your home.
Ready to transform how you think about education? Listen now and discover the extraordinary power of slowing down.
For links and the transcript, visit wokehomeschooling.com/podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Delina (00:00):
There are some books that inspire you to do better
and reimagine what your dayswith your kids could look like.
The Joy of Slow is one of thosebooks.
Welcome to Homeschool Yourself.
I'm your host, delina.
I invite you to slow down andtake in this conversation with
Leslie Martino, author of theJoy of Slow.
I hope this conversation helpsyou get a taste of what is in
her book.
It's a perfect guide torecenter and recalibrate your
(00:25):
homeschool life.
If you're heading into a newyear or new school year, or even
a new month, take a listen.
Hi, leslie, welcome toHomeschool Yourself.
I'm so excited to have thisconversation with you, so let's
just start off.
Will you please just introduceyourself and tell me how and why
, like your book the Joy of Slowwas important for you to write.
Leslie (00:46):
Yes, sure, hi Delina.
Thank you so much for having meon the podcast first of all.
So, yes, I wrote a book calledthe Joy of Slow, restoring
Balance and Wonder to HomeschoolLearning, and I think it was
important for me to write, maybefor a few different reasons,
one of them being that these arethe ideas in the book, are
things that I'm passionate about, things that I've been talking
(01:07):
about and sharing about for along time, and I felt like I was
always able to talk about theseideas in fractured pieces, a
little bit here, a little bitthere, but I felt like writing a
book gave me a way to put itall in a house and organize it
for everybody, so like this isactually how it lives in my
brain and you know it's thepieces that you might have heard
(01:28):
me talk about are parts of awhole picture, and so I felt
like it was important for me towrite it for those reasons.
I also just wanted to.
I love writing, I've alwaysloved writing, and I knew I was
going to write a book.
I've co-authored books, but notsolo and I just knew that it
was something I was going to doagain, and it just seemed really
perfect to just in this, aroundthis topic, something that I've
(01:51):
been so passionate about.
Delina (01:53):
I love it so much.
I think it's the perfect bookto start off, like right before
you start your school year,probably right before you buy
curriculum, Just right beforeyou get started.
Just a reset.
It's so grounding and it's sohelpful in just knowing your why
and why you want to do this andthe feeling of how you want to
(02:15):
do this homeschooling thing.
So let's just start off withexplaining slow.
What do you mean by?
Leslie (02:20):
slow, yeah.
So I think slow means a fewdifferent things and I think you
can look at it in differentcontexts, like if you look at it
in the context of education orthe way that we approach
learning.
I think that slow meansadopting a meaningful practice
of building deep roots more thanwide roots.
You know, a lot of times ineducation we're so concerned
(02:43):
with how much can you know, butcan we know something well?
Can we know a few things well?
I think that, for me, isincorporated in the idea of slow
.
So whether you decide to usecurriculum or whether you are
letting learning unfold morenaturally or learning about a
passion or an interest, it'sthat valuing of deep
(03:04):
understanding over just shallowmastery.
So taking your time to do thatand unfold learning in ways that
are not about speed but aboutquality really over quantity.
And because of that you knowidea of slow and how we approach
learning.
I think inherent in that isthat you have a healthy respect
(03:27):
for the process of buildingknowledge.
I think a lot of times ineducation we're so concerned
with the end result and what youget and what you can show for
your learning, you know, butwhat's more important is the
things that you've experiencedalong the process the
enlightenment, thedisappointment, the struggle,
the challenge, the wins, thehighs, the lows.
It's everything, it's all of itthe conversations, the, you
(03:53):
know, the mess ups, that it'sjust like everything that goes
into the process of learningsomething, and so it's about
appreciating that process,stopping along the way in that
process to reflect on what'shappening and and to know that
that is developing you more thanyou standing at the end of that
process and saying, oh, look atall the things that I've
learned, I've gained.
Delina (04:13):
I think a lot of us want that theoretically, but what
are some of the things that getin the way of that when
homeschooling?
Leslie (04:22):
Yeah, I think when we're homeschooling, you know, we are
so concerned that we're goingto mess things up.
We're so concerned that we'renot going to give the children
the right things, or thatsomeone else is going to look at
us and say that we are somehownot doing it right or we are
somehow not doing it in a waythat serves the child well or is
(04:43):
complete.
You know, there's so manyvoices, I think, that we are
contending with.
It's going on in our own minds,in our own heads.
We think some of us have familymembers and outside voices
looking at us and constantlycriticizing, unfortunately, and
there's the powers that be.
You know, depending on whatstate you live in.
You know the questions that youhave to answer what are you
(05:06):
doing?
What are you doing?
So I think a lot of those thingscan get in the way and stand in
the way, and what it boils downto is a lot of fear, you know,
and a lot of that fear isbirthed out of a genuine place
of love and concern, but itstarts to look like control and
it starts to get out of control,and then we end up not giving
(05:28):
our children the things that wesay we want to give them at the
start.
And so I think part of slow isalso our own level of reflection
and our own willingness to stepoutside of the rat race a
little bit and to look atourselves and look at what we're
doing and say, hang on, doeswhat I'm doing at home with my
children align with what Ireally value?
Because it's not that you can'tever do anything else or can't
(05:54):
do things that are, you know,checking off someone else's
boxes for whatever reasons.
But if you're not doing more ofthe things that are meaningful
to you and that align with yourvalues, then why are we even
doing those things?
Delina (06:07):
Yeah.
Leslie (06:07):
So I think part of slow, that's part of it for us as
parents.
Delina (06:12):
Has it ever cost you anything to go at a different
pace in the culture?
Has it cost you or yourchildren, or have you For sure?
Did you think it was going tocost you something and it was
something different.
Yeah.
Leslie (06:27):
Yeah, I think at times it's costed different things.
You know when, when you chooseto go against the grain in any
way, sometimes that costs reallybig things, sometimes like
fractures in relationships orfriendships, but those are tend
to be like that really dependson the relationships and it
depends on the issues, butsometimes it just costs you the
(06:48):
sake of someone else.
We we we want to be, we want tobe comfortable and we want to
be looked at in a good light andwe want for everybody to
understand what we're doing andwe want to everyone to pat us on
the back.
Delina (07:00):
Yeah.
Leslie (07:01):
But that's not really reality.
You know, I think that when weare going against the grain,
there are going to be people wholook at what we're doing and
say that's weird or that's crazy.
Delina (07:14):
Or worse, like you're messing up your kids.
Leslie (07:16):
This is not real life and you're not preparing them
for real life, Exactly, Exactly,and I think you know, Exactly,
(07:46):
exactly, and I think you knowwhen we can look at the.
We look at the opposite, likewhat will we gain from doing
this?
What would it mean for myfamily if I did this?
Then that's the leverage thatwe can use to at the other side.
That's not going to get us whatwe really want.
That's just going to keep usfearful.
But we want to make thosedecisions that we're making, to
do the things that we believeare the right things for
specific reasons.
So we have to keep our eyes onwhat we'll gain from those
things.
You know, what would it meanfor my family?
What would it mean for ourlevel of connection?
What will I mean for my child'speace and sanity?
What will it mean for myteenagers level of anxiety?
(08:07):
What will it mean for my youknow all of that.
You know to adopt a slow pacein a world that's moving fast.
Delina (08:15):
Yeah that's.
That's what we have to keep oureyes on going to go to there,
like I want to know whatbenefits your family has
received from this pace, but Iwant our listeners to know that
it's not just going to be, youknow, unicorns and rainbows and
yeah for sure.
(08:36):
So what are some ideas aboutlearning and about education
that you think we need to let goof before taking this on?
Leslie (08:49):
I think when it comes to yeah, go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Delina (08:52):
I was going to say taking this on sounds so
aggressive, like the opposite ofslow Right.
Leslie (08:58):
No, but I do think that if you are going to adopt a
slower pace right, especially asit relates to learning and
especially as it relates toeducation then you do have to
let go of some traditionalconceptions of certain
educational ideas like progress.
There is a very traditionalidea of what it looks like to
(09:23):
you know, for a child to bemaking progress.
Usually that means that theyare making that progress in
lockstep with a bunch of otherchildren who are the same age,
learning the exact same material.
But if we can allow ourselvesto think of progress a little
bit more broadly progress for ifyou think about it in your own
(09:44):
life, progress often looks alittle bit more like two steps
forward, one step back.
Sometimes it it's not linear,sometimes it's more circular or
zigzagged, or sometimes itincludes more than just being
able to do some rote academictask.
You know, maybe you can learn towrite, and you can in a span of
(10:06):
a few years, and you can saylook at that, I have made
progress in writing.
But what about other kinds ofprogress, like self
determination or the ability tobe reflective, or to think about
your own thinking, or to have apositive self talk or to
organize your work.
I just feel like you have to bewilling to look at the
(10:29):
development of a person, thingslike progress or even just
simple things like the scope andwhat a scope and sequence
should be of a curriculum.
You know, even those things arevery there are.
Very often the traditional wayof looking at these things are
very narrow.
There are very often thetraditional way of looking at
these things are very narrow,you know, so you can say this is
the material, this has to belearned.
(10:51):
Once you learn it, whichbasically means you can pass a
test and regurgitate theinformation, then you have made
progress and like is that reallywhat learning actually is.
You know, if you talk todifferent people working in
different fields who have asystem where they're like
apprenticing under somebody, askthem if that's what it looks
(11:12):
like.
You know, usually thisapprenticeship lasts for many
hours, sometimes many years.
Mastery of a subject issomething that can honestly take
a lifetime.
Or you have people studyingthings for years and years and
years and feel like they'restill learning and still growing
.
So I just feel like we do kidsa disservice when we make it so
linear and we make it so definedlike that.
(11:35):
We have to actually able to bewilling to let go of that a
little bit to say, you know, wethink that we have a
responsibility to make all thislearning occur within 18 years,
when the reality is that, lookat yourself as an adult, I'm
still learning, I'm stillgrowing, I'm still exploring
ideas that I was exploring atfive, seriously, and I'm like
(11:55):
that's not even exaggerating, solike why, you know, if I can
let that go a little bit forthem, for my child, then that
means I'm not going to be soworried about every little step
that you're making.
If I, you know I'm going to bemore like more, I'm going to
notice more about those smalllittle steps that you're making
(12:18):
and looking at how.
That you know, I in the book Idescribe it as like how your
educational garden is growingover time.
You know what it's yielding.
I describe it as like how youreducational garden is growing
over time.
You know what it's yielding.
I'm going to be looking formore, more growth than than just
the one little seedling or theone little seed.
I'm going to be looking at youknow how you're doing when the
wind comes and how it's just somuch more.
I know I'm speaking inmetaphors, but I just learning
(12:41):
is so much more so.
I think we have to just bewilling to say just learning is
so much more so.
I think we have to just bewilling to say, to question
things, to say is that reallyall that it is?
Is this really all that thiscould mean?
Is this all that this could be?
Sometimes, when it comes totraditional subjects, we say,
well, you've got to cover this,you've got to cover arithmetic,
you've got to cover algebra,you've got to cover calculus,
(13:01):
you've got to cover, cover,cover, cover.
And one of the ideas I bring outin the book well, what if we
talk about uncovering?
You know what does it mean touncover a subject rather than
cover it, right, like now you'retalking about?
Okay, well, what else couldthis possibly include?
What else could this possiblymean?
How might a mathematicianactually look at this versus
(13:22):
what it looks like in mytextbook.
It's just a willingness to askquestions and to let something
exist and be more than we thinkit is.
We have to be willing to dothat if we're going to adopt
these slower practices.
I know I've said a lot.
Delina (13:35):
No, I was just having so many thoughts while you were
talking.
My main response to this is ifyou're worried about what AI is
doing, go get this book, becausethis is what AI can't do.
Exactly, exactly, yes, this iswhat the robots can't compete
with us.
Leslie (13:53):
This is what the robots can't do, and you know what.
We live in such aninformation-rich age, right Like
knowledge is literally at ourfingertips.
It's impossible for us toactually know everything, but
what the AI cannot do you'reright, delina is know things.
Well, know things through ahand-brain connection, connect
(14:13):
with things emotionally.
There's so much about that,about the human experience when
it comes to learning, that hasnot like AI can't replicate.
You know, but we want to actlike machines.
We want to train our bodies andtrain our children to respond
like machines and it's like, no,let's do what the machines
(14:34):
can't do.
Delina (14:35):
Yeah, exactly this approach is let's be more human
and less machine.
Leslie (14:39):
Let's be more human.
Yeah, I like that.
Delina (14:42):
Our culture sends the message that school equals
learning, equals education.
So let's just keep talkingabout what we misunderstand
about learning and education.
I love this quote from theforeword in your book.
This says I tried never to letschooling get in the way of his
education and I love that Ithink that just you know
(15:06):
balances the words, so they meanwhat they're supposed to mean
and they're not synonymous.
And just tell me how thatself-directed learning works
with you, yeah, sure.
Leslie (15:17):
So the beauty of, I think, one of the reasons why I
think I made it an entirechapter, you know, self-directed
learning, the idea of exploringyour own interests and passions
it's because parents often seeit as very separate from
education in general, becausethey tie education to whatever
(15:39):
is being learned in school.
And although that's part ofeducation, right, that's part of
learning, something we areconstantly learning.
We're constantly learning newideas, processing new things,
and it actually is both.
It includes the ways that weare interacting with different
subjects and differentcurriculum, and writing and
(16:01):
reading the skills that we'relearning and acquiring, but
we're also acquiring and usingthose skills to access even more
information.
And when we allow room to beable to, when we allow room for
education to also include moreand to be also about exploring
(16:22):
interests and passions, I feellike it's like an explosion
happens, you know, like a bomb.
A bomb goes off and it's like,in a good way, a happy bomb.
A happy bomb.
It just allows learning to beso much more and you can
actually notice more aboutyourself when it's something
that's self-directed andsomething that's related to an
(16:45):
interest, because I think youknow a lot of times when you're
just learning things that youhave no connection to.
You don't even want to stop andthink about some of the ways
that you're growing anddeveloping because you're just
there's no connection to it, youknow.
But what I love doing with kidsis saying no, you go ahead and
(17:06):
explore this interest, you goahead and explore this passion,
and I'm just going to watch you.
I'm going to be here as amentor, but I'm going to watch
you because you're going tolearn things about yourself and
about this thing that you'reexploring that we would have
never been able to capture inanother context.
So, for example and thatdoesn't mean that you're going
to like and enjoy every topic oridea or thing that your kid
(17:29):
wants to explore but the pointis, is that inside of just about
anything, there is learningthat can happen.
And so, just as a quick example,my daughter, from a very young
age, was always interested inthese littlest pet shop toys.
Okay, like I don't know, Idon't know if you can even I
(17:50):
don't really, I don't evenreally know how popular they are
now but she would take thesetoys, she'd play with them, but
then she got interested incustomizing them and basically
that means that you arerepainting them, or even
sculpting parts to add to themand then doing like a complete
repaint.
I mean, she would take thesethings and, like, gouge their
(18:10):
eyes out and put new eyes inthem and then, like, all of a
sudden, and who knew that?
There was like this wholeunderground, underground world
of people who were like, doingthese things, there's like a,
like a, almost like a Comic-Con,but for Littlest Pet Shop, it's
, it's, I've learned a lot, okay, and you, you know, and
although I could look at her andsay, like, what are you doing
with your time?
(18:30):
Like, what did it?
Like, how do you even want todo this?
Me sitting there and watchingher from a position of a
mentorship, right, some of thethings that I've been able to
walk her through, oh, mygoodness, I'm talking not just
like the art of sculpting, okay,and learning about different
materials.
I mean, she knows aboutmaterials for sculpting that I
didn't even know existed beforeshe started exploring this,
(18:51):
right?
So, like, how do you hone acraft?
How do you, how do you developa skill?
And for her you know that wassculpting and painting here.
So there's, there's that Then,you know, she, at different
stages in her life, would formclubs with a friend group,
friend groups around this.
So how do you maintain a club?
How do you lead a club?
(19:12):
How do you lead people?
How do you communicate withpeople?
How do you make sure everybodyfeels heard?
How do you like?
These are all skills that aregoing to translate to something
else that she wants to do.
There was one thing that sortof happened online which I won't
rehash, but I had to, we had, Ihad to mentor her through what
is copyright law and like.
(19:33):
So, like, it's not about thetopic, it's never about the
topic.
It's about the skills you'relearning along the way, the
development of a person and thethings that you are able to
realize.
And all of these skills, whenwe really think about it, are
things that will translate tothe next project that you tackle
, to the next thing you want todo, because you take that
(19:55):
information with you.
You would never be able to Ican't say never, but it would be
so much more difficult toreplicate those things and those
little discrete areas oflearning if she weren't
connected and like, highlyinterested, invested in what we
were doing.
Do you know what I mean?
And so, yeah, of course, like,include the interest, include
(20:15):
the passion as part of thelearning, because it's a, it's a
really critical piece of it.
Delina (20:20):
Wow, do you just let these things organically emerge,
the things that they'reinterested in and let them?
Leslie (20:27):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So for us in our home because Iknew for us that I wanted to
make time for this kind oflearning in a very intentional
way what we did from very earlyon was like say, just the same
way that people say, hey, we'regoing to do math now, I would
say, hey, this is our projecttime now, Like this is our time
(20:49):
when we are all just going tolike, give to these sorts of,
you know, projects and passions.
And that has looked differentin all different seasons for us.
So sometimes, especially whenthe kids were younger, it was
like, hey, here's an hour or twohours of the morning where
we're just dedicating to this,but that's not the only way that
it can exist in a home,especially if you have older
(21:10):
children I'm talking like movingupwards towards 10 and 11, 12
teenagers especially.
They've got things that they'reinterested in, right, there are
things that they are interestedin doing so, and a lot of times
you'll see those thingshappening on the weekends, or
happening late in the evening,or happening, you know, and
that's all natural and that'sall fine.
So sometimes it's just aboutletting them exist wherever and
(21:31):
whenever they exist, and thenlike coming alongside of and
making them know that you see itas a critical piece of their
learning.
And how do you make thosethings a big deal?
Well, you sit with them and youlet them talk to you about what
it is that you're doing, or youhighlight it at the dinner
table, or you're like, listen,if you value self-directed
(21:51):
learning at the dinner table,hey mom, what are you working on
?
Like?
What are you?
What are you working on rightnow?
What are you doing?
What's what challenges do youhave?
All right, dad, what about you?
What do you got going on, son?
What about you?
It's making it important, youknow.
So there's different ways tomake it, to give it a level of
intention in your family thatmakes sense for your family.
(22:11):
So I go and I describe what ourproject times look like in the
book.
But I am also, I hope, is whatis clear in the book is that I
say it doesn't have to existlike thatdirected interests, and
there are ways to intentionallysupport it without it
necessarily looking like that.
You know and and and we'veexplored different ways that it
(22:33):
can look like.
There are some times, justbecause of whatever interests my
kids are exploring, we are not,they don't need that one hour,
two hour time.
So I'm like, okay, cool, let'sdo some other things.
And then there are times whenthey're like it'll happen for
two kids or it'll happen for allof them, and they're like, oh,
we really want to explore this.
So guess what?
For like two months we scrapanything else, other curriculum,
(22:56):
and I'm like, let's just go allout, like we are just willing
to play with it.
But that's the beauty ofhomeschooling, which I think
fear creeps up.
And we're not, we don't, wewe're.
It's scary.
That becomes scary for us tojust play with a routine like
that, to just play with aschedule we're like, but that's
two months of no math.
Delina (23:12):
What about my plans?
Leslie (23:14):
It's two.
What about my plans?
You know, right, but I promiseyou, like we're, we are not
ruining our children when we,when we do those kinds of things
.
Delina (23:21):
I promise you Side note I think I was guilty of like two
of them want to do it and theother one doesn't, and I'm like
we either all have to agree or,because I'm one person, because
it's so much easier, this trainis moving in this direction.
But I love what you said aboutthe time at the dining room
(23:45):
table and your kids are askingyou what are you getting into?
Because you have interests,right.
Yes, and I love that because Ilove this story that you said in
the book about how youhomeschooled yourself with the
Florida Highwaymen.
Will you tell that story?
Leslie (23:59):
Yes, yes, yes, one of my favorite stories to tell.
So I'm not even really.
Oh, I think I do remember howit started.
I was sitting, I'm not evenreally.
Oh, I think I do remember howit started.
I was sitting, it was thesummertime, I don't remember
what summer, but I was sittingat a pool with a few other
friends and all of our kids werejust in the water.
And we were all just sittingaround the pool and one friend
(24:19):
said hey, have you ever heard ofthe Florida Highwaymen?
And we all started talking and,you know, some of us had heard
of it, others of us know, orsome of us knew very little.
And we all started talking and,you know, some of us had heard
of it, others of us know, orsome of us knew very little, and
so one friend was just sort ofsharing whatever she knew at
that point.
But it sparked some curiosityfor me and although I had heard
of them, I realized I didn'tknow a lot about them and they
were like from my, my state Ilive in Florida and so what I
(24:42):
did was I started researchingand just little by little I
started reading more thingsabout them and it just got
really interested and reallyweird in a good way, really fast
, because here in Florida, likeyou'll go into like a bank and
if it's like an older bank andthe bank has like older
paintings or photos on the wall,lo and behold, that's a Florida
Highwaymen painting.
(25:02):
Like just it's everywhere, yetnowhere, like not very many
people know about it, and thenall of a sudden you start
realizing it's everywhere.
So around the same time it wasthe summer and I was.
I love art and I was just sortof I just sort of said I really
want to learn how to dolandscape paintings better.
And then it was happeningsimultaneously as my interest in
(25:27):
the Florida Highwaymen, whowere a group of artists who I
think it was the 50s, 60s and70s.
They were painting landscapesin interesting things with
landscape art and they all have,they each have individual
(25:52):
stories about how they startedand got started, how they
learned art.
Some of them knew nothing aboutart but because this became a
way to make money, you had likesome highwaymen coming and
saying, well, come here, I'mgoing to teach you how to slap
paint on this Upsum board andwe're going to sell this and
make money.
And it's like folk art.
You know there's, there's apurpose behind it.
But I got really interested andI so I started painting outdoors
(26:16):
with my children and because itwas an interest of mine, I
invited them along.
I was like you guys want tolearn this with me.
They, they were, they thoughtit was cool too, so they never
really minded.
But like it was extra, like I,I was into it.
I, we went to Fort, we drovedown to Fort Pierce.
I had them sitting out in someof the same locations pulling
(26:37):
out our, our, our sketch stuffand paint and like trying to
repaint some scenes.
We went to the Bacchus Museum.
Down there we went and did theFlorida Heritage Trail, looking
at, you know, some of the placeswhere they've been.
And then I started to find someof the older generation people
(26:57):
who are still alive and stillpainting, or second generation,
their sons and daughters, stillpainting, and we would go and
find where they were doing theseexhibits and just like I'm like
, come on, guys, let's go have achat with them, my kids were
like, oh, a chat, how about that?
Like, yes, yes, let's do it.
But you know, it was so much funand I learned so much about
just this topic that I wasgetting really interested in,
but also about myself.
(27:18):
As I was painting and learningto paint what I was capable of.
I painted in a style that I hadnever done before.
My daughter learned a lot she'san artist too so she naturally
sort of gravitated toward thisis with me and got so interested
in well as well and startedpainting like better than I did
in this same style, and, youknow, you got to sell some of
her paintings.
(27:38):
I met somebody who was actuallytrained under the highwaymen
and he he actually sold us anart piece that was painted on
her birthday that she found likewe just have such cool stories.
It was a really exciting time.
It was an exciting summer whereI was learning and growing and
allowed myself like the freedomand the joy to do it.
(27:59):
And I'll tell you whatcontinuing to homeschool
ourselves and continuing to begrowing responsive human beings
with our own interests andpassions helps us to mentor our
children through that sameprocess, because we remember
what it feels like.
We remember the emotions, theexcitement, the challenges, the
frustrations, and we can mentorour children through some of
(28:20):
those same things rather than,if we're just disconnected from
it, just mom who's sitting theresaying do this, do that, don't
do this Don't do that While I gowash the dishes or what you
know like let's.
can we just acknowledge that we,we all want to be, we all have
a right to our own ideas.
We all want to, we all want tolive with that level of
excitement towards learning.
Learning is fun.
Learning is actually fun, guys.
Delina (28:41):
Yeah, it's true.
And and nothing can.
Two things One, watching yourchildren have that spark in
their eyes and you know seeingtheir eyes dart back and forth
when they're learning somethingand they're thinking through it
Nothing, there's nothing like it.
But the other thing is justthem watching you do the same
thing.
They want it, they want it.
Leslie (29:02):
Yeah, they do and they see.
They also see that becoming anadult is not boring and, like
you know, because, like oftenyou know, I think, as kids
you're looking at adults and yousee all the responsibility
right.
Especially, you know yourteenagers are looking at you
like, wow, you have to shell outa lot of money, pay for these
groceries, pay these insuranceand all this stuff.
(29:25):
It's like responsibilityresponsibility, but it's also
exciting because you continue togrow and you continue to learn
throughout life.
I love talking to like 60 and70 year olds who are like what's
next, what can I learn?
Like they are some of the mostexciting people to talk, to.
Do you know what I mean?
Because they're not.
It's not like there's like sometimeline, like, oh, now you
(29:46):
done.
Delina (29:46):
You can't grow anymore, no, I've learned everything.
I've learned everything.
Yeah, I finished the internetExactly.
Leslie (29:52):
Right.
Our children need to see thatthat, that it's a continuation
of that and it continues to be agrowth.
It continues to be an excitingthing and learning continues to
be an exciting thing, but that'show we create the lifelong
learners.
You know, we throw out thesecute little terms but we don't
really consider what it means tocreate one or what it really
(30:13):
means.
Yeah, you know, and that'swhat's going to get you Practice
.
Delina (30:16):
Get you not going, but get you to keep going.
When all of this responsibilityis like you have to keep
learning something.
You have to keep making lifemake sense.
Exactly.
Leslie (30:27):
Exactly, exactly.
Delina (30:28):
Finding joy in it, right , yeah, so you use the word
becoming a couple of minutes ago.
Talk about that the role ofbecoming versus checking boxes
and how we're you know our rolein that, in helping our children
become, yeah in helping ourchildren become.
Leslie (30:50):
Yeah, I think it goes back to the idea of valuing the
process over the product,because when we the role of
becoming, it is everything thatis involved in that becoming,
and so whenever I think of wordslike that, like process and
becoming, for me, you know,people sometimes misinterpret
what I mean and they think soyou're just after like this
(31:11):
rainbow or this idea ofperfection.
I'm like no process includesall of it.
It includes the struggles, itincludes the challenge, it
includes the joys, it includesthe sadder moments, it includes
everything.
So becoming is like who am Ibecoming?
(31:32):
Alongside of these things, inspite of these things, because
of these things, it is helpingour children to become and to
grow and nurture themselves.
Well, I wanted to read this.
In chapter three of the bookthere's somebody who I quote,
(31:53):
Mark Prensky, who is an authorand speaker known for his ideas
about digital citizenship, andso he wrote the real goal of
education and of school isbecoming becoming a good person
and becoming a more capableperson than when you started.
Our kids should be askingthemselves who am I becoming?
Have I become a better thinker?
If so, in what ways Am I ableto do things I couldn't before.
(32:16):
What is important to me and why?
Can I relate comfortably toindividuals in teams and in
virtual communities?
Can I accomplish bigger, moresophisticated projects to add to
my portfolio?
What kind of person have I hadto become to achieve these
accomplishments?
Can I make the world a betterplace, and for me that stands
(32:36):
out so much?
What kind of person have I hadto become to achieve these
accomplishments?
Those are the things I want toconstantly be talking to my
children about that is so good.
Delina (32:48):
Right Because sometimes we look at people who have
achieved so much and they havebecome horrible bosses horrible
people to be around.
No one can stand them, but westill, you know, put them on a
pedestal because they're sowealthy or they're so, I don't
(33:09):
know, influential.
Leslie (33:10):
Yes, on the process.
But as you're walking throughthat process, you know one of
the things I constantly talk tomy kids about.
(33:30):
As we are looking at ourpersonal projects and
self-directed work.
One of the things that I alwayssay is what does your work say
about you?
And it could be little, I meanfive-year-olds could do this.
I remember I was a schoolteacher and I did a lot of this
kind of work in the classroomand one time we were sitting
around I was sitting around theroom with very young kids and
one child decided to sew a dolland we were just sharing the
(33:54):
work and one of the things thatI helped the kids develop is the
ability to speak descriptively,to not put down somebody or to
speak respectfully, and so oneof the things that they looked
at this person's doll and said Inoticed that you have a lot of
thread that's sort of stickingout of places and it's not
(34:17):
neatly tucked in.
And you know what that childsaid.
She took her doll and shelooked at it and she said I
noticed that everybody is sayingthat my work says that I'm a
messy worker and I'm.
I don't want to be that, so I'mgoing to do this again.
I never sat there and said toher, take the stitches out and
do it again, but she realizedthat she wanted the message that
(34:42):
her work was sending to besomething different.
She was young guys.
Surely we can help 10 year oldsand 11 year olds and 13 year
olds and 16 year olds do thatsame kinds of thinking right
About, like what kind of persondo I have to become to achieve
the things that I am trying toachieve?
Like, what level of consistencydo I need to put into this?
(35:06):
What level of?
Is it OK that I don't give muchattention to this, because
maybe it is OK, but why is it OK?
Maybe I'm trying to put myattention here.
Like you know, I think thoseare certain the kinds of
conversations that we don'toften allow in the learning and
the becoming, but I think thatthey are important.
Delina (35:26):
I love that.
I love all of the self thebecoming, but I think that they
are important.
I love that.
I love all of theself-reflection.
Leslie (35:31):
Yeah.
Delina (35:32):
And yeah, this was not in my notes, but as you were
talking, I was thinking about weneed to do our own
self-reflection, becausesometimes we see our kids dive
deep into something and weimmediately say how can we
monetize this?
How can you sell that on Etsy?
Exactly, you know, you'realmost taking the joy out of
(35:55):
just being their creative selves.
Or sometimes you see them diveinto something and you're
already like, okay, she's goingto be an actress, okay, he's
going to be an engineer.
Leslie (36:07):
Puts his legos together on your future right yes, and I
talk about a lot of that in thebook too, you know, because it's
.
Those are like naturalreactions we have as parents
especially.
We're like you know, we gotta,we're helping you to become
something surely this is whatyou will become because you have
this interest.
you know, yeah, yeah, how tostep back and, uh know, let go a
(36:27):
little bit of that level ofcontrol of the things that they
choose to do and even whothey're choosing to become.
That's hard, and I think that'sactually one of the hardest
things about parenting.
That most of us don't want toadmit is that we can't exactly
control as much as we think thatwe're tasked to, or we think
that we should, and we don'talways know the outcome.
(36:49):
We don't always know theoutcome.
You know we're doing all ofthese things in the hopes that,
but we don't always know whatit's going to yield.
And that's probably one of thehardest things about
homeschooling, but honestly,it's parenting?
Delina (36:59):
Yeah, we want to know or we want to make it happen.
Right yeah.
Yeah, ooh, parenting is a wholething, okay, so in your book
you also talk about teachingyour child and not the
curriculum.
You gave an example of ahistory of curriculum that you
had that was designed for oneyear but you stretched it out
for three years.
(37:20):
I felt like that was a greatexample of teaching the child
and not the curriculum.
But tell me about thatexperience.
Leslie (37:26):
Yeah, yeah.
So, um, I don't actually that's.
That's interesting.
I put that in the book becauseI don't really share that with a
lot of people, cause I I, whenI say certain things like that
to people, they just look at melike yeah, what did you skip if
you took three years Exactly?
Um, yeah, yeah, Like it really.
Um, that is definitely awillingness to, to, to, to look
(37:49):
at things differently.
But you're right, it was agreat example of teaching the
child, not the curriculum,because a lot of times we look
at curriculum and we look at theway it's a, it's a, you know,
six month curriculum or whatever, and so we think we have a duty
(38:10):
to make it, you know begin andend in that time.
And so I think that we can usecurriculum, sure, but I prefer
to use it as a tool, a tool tohelp me with the deeper thinking
and learning that I expect tobe going on regardless of the
curriculum.
And so with the historycurriculum, I loved, I loved the
(38:31):
framework that it gave me.
It gave me some great topicsand it gave me some great like.
It organized for me sort oflike a body of knowledge of a
particular time in history in aparticular country, but it
wasn't everything and it didn'tnecessarily include the things
that we gravitated to and wereinterested in.
So, you know, let's say, youknow, we got to this one chapter
(38:54):
or one particular time periodand you know it was talking
about different people planningthe development of Washington DC
, I don't know.
And we started learning about,and then one kid learned about
Benjamin Banneker, but therewasn't enough in this curriculum
to even talk about who he wasor what he did, like, okay, well
, why?
Like, you want to know moreabout him?
(39:14):
Let's go off grid a little bit,you know, let's go ahead and
invite that in and learn about.
Oh, and what do you know?
That leads to something elseand that leads to something else
.
And it's like when it stopsleading to somewhere, it's like
okay, stops leading to somewhere, it's like okay, let's go back,
let's go back here.
And when you do stuff like that, it's a little scary, but it
definitely takes a lot of timeand and so but.
But the things that we wereable to do were applicable to us
(39:40):
, they were personal to us.
They, the learning was so muchmore rich.
Yeah, you know, it's like sure.
The thing is is that we foolourselves when we think that
because you didn't, okay, butyou went so deep, you know, on
this particular time in history,what about the entire timeline
(40:00):
of history?
And it's like, okay, so youthink that just doing this
cursory, cursory run through,run through it all, if I ask you
in three years to tell meeverything on that timeline, do
you really believe you'll beable to do it with accuracy?
Do you really believe that youwill be able to talk about it in
any sort of meaningful way,just because you covered it and
(40:21):
read it and got through itquickly and did all the
activities and read, watched allthe videos.
Probably you know.
So let's use that curriculum asa tool.
It's a great tool.
It organized a lot, it gave mea lot of great resources, but
it's not all there is for thisbody of knowledge, right?
So I can incorporate othertools, and you know.
And then there are times whenyou know we can just move
(40:44):
through it more quickly becausemaybe that connection or that
vibrant interest just isn'tthere, and that's okay too.
So, yeah, this, this curriculum, stretched out over three years
.
Delina (40:54):
No, and I I think that it it's an opportunity for
self-reflection for the parentthat's doing you know that has a
curriculum, because you thinkthat if you do it exactly like
this, then what does it sayabout me that I finished it when
it was supposed to?
Be finished you know, and soyou have to take a step back and
(41:14):
be like doesn't actually sayanything about you.
There's no prize at the end fordoing this.
Leslie (41:19):
There's no prize, but some of it is like personality
type because some personalitytypes it's like you just get
that joy and satisfaction ofjust checking out that box and
saying yes.
I completed a task, I did it andI get that.
I really really do.
But what is taught is notalways equal to what is learned
(41:48):
to also realize that you know inthe book I brought up this
example back in the.
Was it the 90s, 80s?
No, I think it was 90s or no.
Probably no, it was probablythe 2000s, the early 2000s that
show Are you Smarter Than aFifth Grader?
Delina (41:57):
Right.
Leslie (41:59):
What was so funny about that show was all the adults who
failed miserably, you know,because they could not remember
like grade school curricularcontent and it's like, well,
that's kind of I felt like thatwas exactly the point, right
Like.
Delina (42:10):
Maybe not the point they were trying to make.
Yeah, right, right.
Leslie (42:12):
Right.
Delina (42:13):
Yep Perfect example.
Yeah, how you're not going toremember this stuff later.
And it's okay, it's okay.
So have you, leslie, ever feltthe pressure of joining the pace
of the culture?
And how did you resist that ifyou did feel that?
Leslie (42:27):
pressure.
I have many, many, conversationsthroughout the day and
throughout the week in my headSome of the things that I have
intentionally tried to do.
You know, there are some things, yes, that may become more
easily to me than somebody else,but it doesn't mean that I am
not bombarded by fearfulthoughts or it doesn't mean that
I sometimes second guess whatI'm doing or question.
(42:48):
You know, I have, I have somechildren with some very real
learning differences, includingdyslexia, dyscalculia, and so
you constantly asking questionslike, oh my gosh, like what am I
doing?
Am I really, am I doing mychild a disservice?
Am I like?
What's the right move here?
Yes, I have all those kinds ofthoughts, but some of the things
that I've really had to do wasto slow down, step back and be
(43:13):
descriptive about and reflectiveabout my experience and what
I'm seeing and noticing in thechildren.
But I have also had to bereally clear about what my
values are, and by really clear,basically, that means spell
them out, say them, reflect onthem, notice when they change
and keep that at the forefront,because those are the things
(43:35):
that keep me going.
Everybody has the negativefears and thoughts and the
questions, but it's keepingthose values at the forefront.
You know, even in terms of Ihighly value.
You know you always hear thisexpression, but for me it's like
reality, connection overcurriculum.
(43:55):
For me, that is a high value.
When I sit down and do math withmy, with a kid, I want us to
both get up from that experience, not angry with each other.
And so I have to behavedifferently in those moments.
I can't I can't controlanything they do, but I can
control me, and so sometimesthat means scrapping my plans
(44:16):
for the day.
Sometimes it means shorteningmy plans for the day, being
responsive to the human being infront of me.
The other day, my son got up,you know, which is not always
the case.
He got up and after I sat downand I was working on some math
with him and he said I love you,I love you, mommy, and I was so
happy, like that was hisresponse when we closed the book
.
And then I looked at him and Isaid I love you more than math,
(44:37):
and he was like I love you morethan math too, you know, but
that's a high value for me.
And so there are choices thatI'm going to have to make when
I'm doing.
Math is just one example.
There are choices that I'mgoing to have to make when I'm
doing math to align my life withthat value, to align my time
with that value.
(44:58):
So for me, that's the thingthat keeps me honest, keeps me
true to what I'm doing andallows me to keep going and
making the choices I'm making.
It doesn't mean that I don'thave those thoughts, but like,
allow them to exist, but reflecton them and evaluate what they
mean for your life.
About, about you know wherethat idea is even coming from.
(45:19):
Like, do the do the personalwork, the inner work that you
need to do to be able toovercome those things?
Because you know every, everyfeeling is coming from an idea
and every idea, like all ofthose things, are coming from
somewhere.
So, just as easily as it is tofocus on that idea, we can put
our focus elsewhere and thenhave different feelings you know
, yeah, this is like homeschoolmom therapy.
Delina (45:43):
I appreciate this therapy session, no joke.
Seriously, when I read thisbook, I felt two things
nostalgic for our homeschoollife that we had when the kids
were younger.
And then I wanted to go snatchthem right out of their high
schools, like no, we're notdoing this pace, no more, I
don't care what anybody says, Idon't care about nothing, I
(46:04):
don't even care what y'all say.
That's what I felt like and Imessaged you in that moment.
I was like I'm snatching themout today, but you said that you
can still incorporate some ofthe important parts, no matter
where they're in school.
So you know asking for a friend, of course Tell me how families
(46:27):
who don't homeschool canincorporate more slow in their
lives.
Leslie (46:31):
Yeah, you know that is actually one thing.
Response to this book that Ihave been really excited and
delighted by is the people whosay that this to them is, yes,
about education, yes, aboutlearning, but is so much more
about parenting.
Because I think that you knowother ideas in the book about
(46:53):
the idea of slow.
It's about less consumption andinstant gratification and more
gratitude and ways to give, andthose are things that you can
think about as a family, nomatter where education is
happening.
You know you can slow downmoments of learning that you
feel are going by way too fastfor your own child in that
(47:15):
setting, at home, by beingintentional, by saying no, I
care about your well-being, Icare about your interest.
Still Like, let's explore aninterest and pursue an interest.
Who says that can't happen on aweekend?
Or who says that that can'thappen after school?
Or I mean, I was a schoolteacher and as a school it was a
very nontraditional setting sowe didn't.
(47:36):
I didn't believe in homework soI didn't give it, but you know
other teachers did.
But I love those conversationswhere the parent would be like I
don't want to do this.
Delina (47:44):
I don't want to.
Leslie (47:46):
I'm like, okay, why?
Because they had other valuableways to spend their time.
Great, great, you know, like I.
Just you know, or even you know, maybe that's not you, maybe
you do have to do the homework.
Then you know what.
Slow down, sit next to you.
Slow down, stop vacuuming, stopdoing laundry, go sit down, get
(48:07):
in the same physical space withyour child, struggle with them.
Let me try one of thoseproblems.
Just sit next to them, shoulderto shoulder, and do that.
Or talk about hey, what booksare you reading now in that
class?
Any of them really like?
Yeah, mom, I really like thisone.
Go for a drive, Especiallyolder kids.
They love the somebody.
I love the way they describedit as like parallel facing
(48:28):
activities.
It's like get nervous when youdo the eye contact, you know,
but it's like you're both,you're driving and they're in
the car.
You're both facing the samedirection, but you just have
this great conversation aboutsome book that they really love.
Hey, that reminds me of thisbook that I read.
Like have a real conversation.
One of the things I talk aboutin the book is the art of
conversation.
As parents, we sometimes fireoff questions to our kids and
call that conversation.
(48:49):
Conversation is give and take.
How do you have a conversationexcuse me, a conversation with
your friend?
Have a conversation like thatwith your child, like no matter
what age they are, like theseare all things that can be
happening no matter where yourchild does school.
You can slow down, you can bemore intentional.
You can do things that fill youup as a family.
You can do things that areagainst the green or the pace of
(49:10):
life.
Go ahead and go out, go out ona hike, go out on a walk, go to
a park.
You know I like to take walksand I call them different things
.
I say to my kids let's take athinking walk or let's take a
noticing walk, and we are likeliterally, just give me a city
street and we are just walkingdown the road noticing things
like oh my gosh, did you eversee that on top of that building
, that's such a nice slowactivity, you know, or let's a
(49:32):
thinking walk, like you know,like you're not really noticing
what's around you Cause you'relike deep in thought over about
something.
Everybody be quiet.
Yeah, you know, one time we Idiscovered that we actually like
doing this back in 2020.
It was weird, but not weirdanymore.
We went out on a walk we had towalk the dog and I put on an
audio book on my phone as wewere going and we all it was
(49:53):
like.
We were like it's like, let'sgo walk and listen to an audio
book.
I don't know, you know we putthose two things together, but
we actually discovered that weloved it.
It helped us to just slow down,take a class together, explore
an interest together.
You know there's so many ideas.
There's so many ways that thiscould live and breathe, no
matter where education ishappening.
(50:14):
That's just a piece of it.
We're all responsible for ourchildren's education in many
ways, no matter where school ishappening.
Delina (50:22):
I love that.
I love that.
Thank you so much, leslie, forjust sharing all your wisdom
with us, and y'all pick up thebook.
It is wherever you buy yourbooks, that's where you'll find
it, and I'll also have a link toit on the show notes.
But, leslie, will you also tellus where to, because I love
your Instagram too, so let ustell us where to find you on
social media, sure.
Leslie (50:43):
On social media.
I am most active on Instagramand you can find me at Leslie M
Martino.
You have to stick that M inthere for Instagram, but you can
find my website atlesliemartinocom.
You can see my blog there.
Sign up for my newsletter allthe stuff.
Delina (50:57):
I love it.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Delina.
I enjoyed this.
I can't say enough good thingsabout Leslie and her book.
Find links to her book and hersocial media on our website
wokehomeschoolingcom slashpodcast.
I encourage you to grab herbook and see how you can take
some of the principles in thereto enrich your child's learning
(51:18):
life and even to find new waysto homeschool yourself.
Until next time, go and learnsomething today.
Announcer (51:34):
Homeschool Yourself is a production of Woke
Homeschooling Inc.
For show notes and links tothings mentioned in the episode,
visit wokehomeschoolingcomslash podcast.
Woke Homeschooling empowersparents to teach their kids an
inclusive, truthful history.
We invite you to visit ourwebsite and download a sample of
the history curriculum we offerfor kids.
(51:54):
Visit us atwokehomeschoolingcom.
There are some books that inspire you to do better
and reimagine what your dayswith your kids could look like.
The Joy of Slow is one of thosebooks.
Welcome to Homeschool Yourself.
I'm your host, delina.
I invite you to slow down andtake in this conversation with
Leslie Martino, author of theJoy of Slow.
I hope this conversation helpsyou get a taste of what is in
her book.
It's a perfect guide torecenter and recalibrate your
(00:25):
homeschool life.
If you're heading into a newyear or new school year, or even
a new month, take a listen.
Hi, leslie, welcome toHomeschool Yourself.
I'm so excited to have thisconversation with you, so let's
just start off.
Will you please just introduceyourself and tell me how and why
, like your book the Joy of Slowwas important for you to write.
Leslie (00:46):
Yes, sure, hi Delina.
Thank you so much for having meon the podcast first of all.
So, yes, I wrote a book calledthe Joy of Slow, restoring
Balance and Wonder to HomeschoolLearning, and I think it was
important for me to write, maybefor a few different reasons,
one of them being that these arethe ideas in the book, are
things that I'm passionate about, things that I've been talking
(01:07):
about and sharing about for along time, and I felt like I was
always able to talk about theseideas in fractured pieces, a
little bit here, a little bitthere, but I felt like writing a
book gave me a way to put itall in a house and organize it
for everybody, so like this isactually how it lives in my
brain and you know it's thepieces that you might have heard
(01:28):
me talk about are parts of awhole picture, and so I felt
like it was important for me towrite it for those reasons.
I also just wanted to.
I love writing, I've alwaysloved writing, and I knew I was
going to write a book.
I've co-authored books, but notsolo and I just knew that it
was something I was going to doagain, and it just seemed really
perfect to just in this, aroundthis topic, something that I've
(01:51):
been so passionate about.
Delina (01:53):
I love it so much.
I think it's the perfect bookto start off, like right before
you start your school year,probably right before you buy
curriculum, Just right beforeyou get started.
Just a reset.
It's so grounding and it's sohelpful in just knowing your why
and why you want to do this andthe feeling of how you want to
(02:15):
do this homeschooling thing.
So let's just start off withexplaining slow.
What do you mean by?
Leslie (02:20):
slow, yeah.
So I think slow means a fewdifferent things and I think you
can look at it in differentcontexts, like if you look at it
in the context of education orthe way that we approach
learning.
I think that slow meansadopting a meaningful practice
of building deep roots more thanwide roots.
You know, a lot of times ineducation we're so concerned
(02:43):
with how much can you know, butcan we know something well?
Can we know a few things well?
I think that, for me, isincorporated in the idea of slow
.
So whether you decide to usecurriculum or whether you are
letting learning unfold morenaturally or learning about a
passion or an interest, it'sthat valuing of deep
(03:04):
understanding over just shallowmastery.
So taking your time to do thatand unfold learning in ways that
are not about speed but aboutquality really over quantity.
And because of that you knowidea of slow and how we approach
learning.
I think inherent in that isthat you have a healthy respect
(03:27):
for the process of buildingknowledge.
I think a lot of times ineducation we're so concerned
with the end result and what youget and what you can show for
your learning, you know, butwhat's more important is the
things that you've experiencedalong the process the
enlightenment, thedisappointment, the struggle,
the challenge, the wins, thehighs, the lows.
It's everything, it's all of itthe conversations, the, you
(03:53):
know, the mess ups, that it'sjust like everything that goes
into the process of learningsomething, and so it's about
appreciating that process,stopping along the way in that
process to reflect on what'shappening and and to know that
that is developing you more thanyou standing at the end of that
process and saying, oh, look atall the things that I've
learned, I've gained.
Delina (04:13):
I think a lot of us want that theoretically, but what
are some of the things that getin the way of that when
homeschooling?
Leslie (04:22):
Yeah, I think when we're homeschooling, you know, we are
so concerned that we're goingto mess things up.
We're so concerned that we'renot going to give the children
the right things, or thatsomeone else is going to look at
us and say that we are somehownot doing it right or we are
somehow not doing it in a waythat serves the child well or is
(04:43):
complete.
You know, there's so manyvoices, I think, that we are
contending with.
It's going on in our own minds,in our own heads.
We think some of us have familymembers and outside voices
looking at us and constantlycriticizing, unfortunately, and
there's the powers that be.
You know, depending on whatstate you live in.
You know the questions that youhave to answer what are you
(05:06):
doing?
What are you doing?
So I think a lot of those thingscan get in the way and stand in
the way, and what it boils downto is a lot of fear, you know,
and a lot of that fear isbirthed out of a genuine place
of love and concern, but itstarts to look like control and
it starts to get out of control,and then we end up not giving
(05:28):
our children the things that wesay we want to give them at the
start.
And so I think part of slow isalso our own level of reflection
and our own willingness to stepoutside of the rat race a
little bit and to look atourselves and look at what we're
doing and say, hang on, doeswhat I'm doing at home with my
children align with what Ireally value?
Because it's not that you can'tever do anything else or can't
(05:54):
do things that are, you know,checking off someone else's
boxes for whatever reasons.
But if you're not doing more ofthe things that are meaningful
to you and that align with yourvalues, then why are we even
doing those things?
Delina (06:07):
Yeah.
Leslie (06:07):
So I think part of slow, that's part of it for us as
parents.
Delina (06:12):
Has it ever cost you anything to go at a different
pace in the culture?
Has it cost you or yourchildren, or have you For sure?
Did you think it was going tocost you something and it was
something different.
Yeah.
Leslie (06:27):
Yeah, I think at times it's costed different things.
You know when, when you chooseto go against the grain in any
way, sometimes that costs reallybig things, sometimes like
fractures in relationships orfriendships, but those are tend
to be like that really dependson the relationships and it
depends on the issues, butsometimes it just costs you the
(06:48):
sake of someone else.
We we we want to be, we want tobe comfortable and we want to
be looked at in a good light andwe want for everybody to
understand what we're doing andwe want to everyone to pat us on
the back.
Delina (07:00):
Yeah.
Leslie (07:01):
But that's not really reality.
You know, I think that when weare going against the grain,
there are going to be people wholook at what we're doing and
say that's weird or that's crazy.
Delina (07:14):
Or worse, like you're messing up your kids.
Leslie (07:16):
This is not real life and you're not preparing them
for real life, Exactly, Exactly,and I think you know, Exactly,
(07:46):
exactly, and I think you knowwhen we can look at the.
We look at the opposite, likewhat will we gain from doing
this?
What would it mean for myfamily if I did this?
Then that's the leverage thatwe can use to at the other side.
That's not going to get us whatwe really want.
That's just going to keep usfearful.
But we want to make thosedecisions that we're making, to
do the things that we believeare the right things for
specific reasons.
So we have to keep our eyes onwhat we'll gain from those
things.
You know, what would it meanfor my family?
What would it mean for ourlevel of connection?
What will I mean for my child'speace and sanity?
What will it mean for myteenagers level of anxiety?
(08:07):
What will it mean for my youknow all of that.
You know to adopt a slow pacein a world that's moving fast.
Delina (08:15):
Yeah that's.
That's what we have to keep oureyes on going to go to there,
like I want to know whatbenefits your family has
received from this pace, but Iwant our listeners to know that
it's not just going to be, youknow, unicorns and rainbows and
yeah for sure.
(08:36):
So what are some ideas aboutlearning and about education
that you think we need to let goof before taking this on?
Leslie (08:49):
I think when it comes to yeah, go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Delina (08:52):
I was going to say taking this on sounds so
aggressive, like the opposite ofslow Right.
Leslie (08:58):
No, but I do think that if you are going to adopt a
slower pace right, especially asit relates to learning and
especially as it relates toeducation then you do have to
let go of some traditionalconceptions of certain
educational ideas like progress.
There is a very traditionalidea of what it looks like to
(09:23):
you know, for a child to bemaking progress.
Usually that means that theyare making that progress in
lockstep with a bunch of otherchildren who are the same age,
learning the exact same material.
But if we can allow ourselvesto think of progress a little
bit more broadly progress for ifyou think about it in your own
(09:44):
life, progress often looks alittle bit more like two steps
forward, one step back.
Sometimes it it's not linear,sometimes it's more circular or
zigzagged, or sometimes itincludes more than just being
able to do some rote academictask.
You know, maybe you can learn towrite, and you can in a span of
(10:06):
a few years, and you can saylook at that, I have made
progress in writing.
But what about other kinds ofprogress, like self
determination or the ability tobe reflective, or to think about
your own thinking, or to have apositive self talk or to
organize your work.
I just feel like you have to bewilling to look at the
(10:29):
development of a person, thingslike progress or even just
simple things like the scope andwhat a scope and sequence
should be of a curriculum.
You know, even those things arevery there are.
Very often the traditional wayof looking at these things are
very narrow.
There are very often thetraditional way of looking at
these things are very narrow,you know, so you can say this is
the material, this has to belearned.
(10:51):
Once you learn it, whichbasically means you can pass a
test and regurgitate theinformation, then you have made
progress and like is that reallywhat learning actually is.
You know, if you talk todifferent people working in
different fields who have asystem where they're like
apprenticing under somebody, askthem if that's what it looks
(11:12):
like.
You know, usually thisapprenticeship lasts for many
hours, sometimes many years.
Mastery of a subject issomething that can honestly take
a lifetime.
Or you have people studyingthings for years and years and
years and feel like they'restill learning and still growing
.
So I just feel like we do kidsa disservice when we make it so
linear and we make it so definedlike that.
(11:35):
We have to actually able to bewilling to let go of that a
little bit to say, you know, wethink that we have a
responsibility to make all thislearning occur within 18 years,
when the reality is that, lookat yourself as an adult, I'm
still learning, I'm stillgrowing, I'm still exploring
ideas that I was exploring atfive, seriously, and I'm like
(11:55):
that's not even exaggerating, solike why, you know, if I can
let that go a little bit forthem, for my child, then that
means I'm not going to be soworried about every little step
that you're making.
If I, you know I'm going to bemore like more, I'm going to
notice more about those smalllittle steps that you're making
(12:18):
and looking at how.
That you know, I in the book Idescribe it as like how your
educational garden is growingover time.
You know what it's yielding.
I describe it as like how youreducational garden is growing
over time.
You know what it's yielding.
I'm going to be looking formore, more growth than than just
the one little seedling or theone little seed.
I'm going to be looking at youknow how you're doing when the
wind comes and how it's just somuch more.
I know I'm speaking inmetaphors, but I just learning
(12:41):
is so much more so.
I think we have to just bewilling to say just learning is
so much more so.
I think we have to just bewilling to say, to question
things, to say is that reallyall that it is?
Is this really all that thiscould mean?
Is this all that this could be?
Sometimes, when it comes totraditional subjects, we say,
well, you've got to cover this,you've got to cover arithmetic,
you've got to cover algebra,you've got to cover calculus,
(13:01):
you've got to cover, cover,cover, cover.
And one of the ideas I bring outin the book well, what if we
talk about uncovering?
You know what does it mean touncover a subject rather than
cover it, right, like now you'retalking about?
Okay, well, what else couldthis possibly include?
What else could this possiblymean?
How might a mathematicianactually look at this versus
(13:22):
what it looks like in mytextbook.
It's just a willingness to askquestions and to let something
exist and be more than we thinkit is.
We have to be willing to dothat if we're going to adopt
these slower practices.
I know I've said a lot.
Delina (13:35):
No, I was just having so many thoughts while you were
talking.
My main response to this is ifyou're worried about what AI is
doing, go get this book, becausethis is what AI can't do.
Exactly, exactly, yes, this iswhat the robots can't compete
with us.
Leslie (13:53):
This is what the robots can't do, and you know what.
We live in such aninformation-rich age, right Like
knowledge is literally at ourfingertips.
It's impossible for us toactually know everything, but
what the AI cannot do you'reright, delina is know things.
Well, know things through ahand-brain connection, connect
(14:13):
with things emotionally.
There's so much about that,about the human experience when
it comes to learning, that hasnot like AI can't replicate.
You know, but we want to actlike machines.
We want to train our bodies andtrain our children to respond
like machines and it's like, no,let's do what the machines
(14:34):
can't do.
Delina (14:35):
Yeah, exactly this approach is let's be more human
and less machine.
Leslie (14:39):
Let's be more human.
Yeah, I like that.
Delina (14:42):
Our culture sends the message that school equals
learning, equals education.
So let's just keep talkingabout what we misunderstand
about learning and education.
I love this quote from theforeword in your book.
This says I tried never to letschooling get in the way of his
education and I love that Ithink that just you know
(15:06):
balances the words, so they meanwhat they're supposed to mean
and they're not synonymous.
And just tell me how thatself-directed learning works
with you, yeah, sure.
Leslie (15:17):
So the beauty of, I think, one of the reasons why I
think I made it an entirechapter, you know, self-directed
learning, the idea of exploringyour own interests and passions
it's because parents often seeit as very separate from
education in general, becausethey tie education to whatever
(15:39):
is being learned in school.
And although that's part ofeducation, right, that's part of
learning, something we areconstantly learning.
We're constantly learning newideas, processing new things,
and it actually is both.
It includes the ways that weare interacting with different
subjects and differentcurriculum, and writing and
(16:01):
reading the skills that we'relearning and acquiring, but
we're also acquiring and usingthose skills to access even more
information.
And when we allow room to beable to, when we allow room for
education to also include moreand to be also about exploring
(16:22):
interests and passions, I feellike it's like an explosion
happens, you know, like a bomb.
A bomb goes off and it's like,in a good way, a happy bomb.
A happy bomb.
It just allows learning to beso much more and you can
actually notice more aboutyourself when it's something
that's self-directed andsomething that's related to an
(16:45):
interest, because I think youknow a lot of times when you're
just learning things that youhave no connection to.
You don't even want to stop andthink about some of the ways
that you're growing anddeveloping because you're just
there's no connection to it, youknow.
But what I love doing with kidsis saying no, you go ahead and
(17:06):
explore this interest, you goahead and explore this passion,
and I'm just going to watch you.
I'm going to be here as amentor, but I'm going to watch
you because you're going tolearn things about yourself and
about this thing that you'reexploring that we would have
never been able to capture inanother context.
So, for example and thatdoesn't mean that you're going
to like and enjoy every topic oridea or thing that your kid
(17:29):
wants to explore but the pointis, is that inside of just about
anything, there is learningthat can happen.
And so, just as a quick example,my daughter, from a very young
age, was always interested inthese littlest pet shop toys.
Okay, like I don't know, Idon't know if you can even I
(17:50):
don't really, I don't evenreally know how popular they are
now but she would take thesetoys, she'd play with them, but
then she got interested incustomizing them and basically
that means that you arerepainting them, or even
sculpting parts to add to themand then doing like a complete
repaint.
I mean, she would take thesethings and, like, gouge their
(18:10):
eyes out and put new eyes inthem and then, like, all of a
sudden, and who knew that?
There was like this wholeunderground, underground world
of people who were like, doingthese things, there's like a,
like a, almost like a Comic-Con,but for Littlest Pet Shop, it's
, it's, I've learned a lot, okay, and you, you know, and
although I could look at her andsay, like, what are you doing
with your time?
(18:30):
Like, what did it?
Like, how do you even want todo this?
Me sitting there and watchingher from a position of a
mentorship, right, some of thethings that I've been able to
walk her through, oh, mygoodness, I'm talking not just
like the art of sculpting, okay,and learning about different
materials.
I mean, she knows aboutmaterials for sculpting that I
didn't even know existed beforeshe started exploring this,
(18:51):
right?
So, like, how do you hone acraft?
How do you, how do you developa skill?
And for her you know that wassculpting and painting here.
So there's, there's that Then,you know, she, at different
stages in her life, would formclubs with a friend group,
friend groups around this.
So how do you maintain a club?
How do you lead a club?
(19:12):
How do you lead people?
How do you communicate withpeople?
How do you make sure everybodyfeels heard?
How do you like?
These are all skills that aregoing to translate to something
else that she wants to do.
There was one thing that sortof happened online which I won't
rehash, but I had to, we had, Ihad to mentor her through what
is copyright law and like.
(19:33):
So, like, it's not about thetopic, it's never about the
topic.
It's about the skills you'relearning along the way, the
development of a person and thethings that you are able to
realize.
And all of these skills, whenwe really think about it, are
things that will translate tothe next project that you tackle
, to the next thing you want todo, because you take that
(19:55):
information with you.
You would never be able to Ican't say never, but it would be
so much more difficult toreplicate those things and those
little discrete areas oflearning if she weren't
connected and like, highlyinterested, invested in what we
were doing.
Do you know what I mean?
And so, yeah, of course, like,include the interest, include
(20:15):
the passion as part of thelearning, because it's a, it's a
really critical piece of it.
Delina (20:20):
Wow, do you just let these things organically emerge,
the things that they'reinterested in and let them?
Leslie (20:27):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So for us in our home because Iknew for us that I wanted to
make time for this kind oflearning in a very intentional
way what we did from very earlyon was like say, just the same
way that people say, hey, we'regoing to do math now, I would
say, hey, this is our projecttime now, Like this is our time
(20:49):
when we are all just going tolike, give to these sorts of,
you know, projects and passions.
And that has looked differentin all different seasons for us.
So sometimes, especially whenthe kids were younger, it was
like, hey, here's an hour or twohours of the morning where
we're just dedicating to this,but that's not the only way that
it can exist in a home,especially if you have older
(21:10):
children I'm talking like movingupwards towards 10 and 11, 12
teenagers especially.
They've got things that they'reinterested in, right, there are
things that they are interestedin doing so, and a lot of times
you'll see those thingshappening on the weekends, or
happening late in the evening,or happening, you know, and
that's all natural and that'sall fine.
So sometimes it's just aboutletting them exist wherever and
(21:31):
whenever they exist, and thenlike coming alongside of and
making them know that you see itas a critical piece of their
learning.
And how do you make thosethings a big deal?
Well, you sit with them and youlet them talk to you about what
it is that you're doing, or youhighlight it at the dinner
table, or you're like, listen,if you value self-directed
(21:51):
learning at the dinner table,hey mom, what are you working on
?
Like?
What are you?
What are you working on rightnow?
What are you doing?
What's what challenges do youhave?
All right, dad, what about you?
What do you got going on, son?
What about you?
It's making it important, youknow.
So there's different ways tomake it, to give it a level of
intention in your family thatmakes sense for your family.
(22:11):
So I go and I describe what ourproject times look like in the
book.
But I am also, I hope, is whatis clear in the book is that I
say it doesn't have to existlike thatdirected interests, and
there are ways to intentionallysupport it without it
necessarily looking like that.
You know and and and we'veexplored different ways that it
(22:33):
can look like.
There are some times, justbecause of whatever interests my
kids are exploring, we are not,they don't need that one hour,
two hour time.
So I'm like, okay, cool, let'sdo some other things.
And then there are times whenthey're like it'll happen for
two kids or it'll happen for allof them, and they're like, oh,
we really want to explore this.
So guess what?
For like two months we scrapanything else, other curriculum,
(22:56):
and I'm like, let's just go allout, like we are just willing
to play with it.
But that's the beauty ofhomeschooling, which I think
fear creeps up.
And we're not, we don't, wewe're.
It's scary.
That becomes scary for us tojust play with a routine like
that, to just play with aschedule we're like, but that's
two months of no math.
Delina (23:12):
What about my plans?
Leslie (23:14):
It's two.
What about my plans?
You know, right, but I promiseyou, like we're, we are not
ruining our children when we,when we do those kinds of things
.
Delina (23:21):
I promise you Side note I think I was guilty of like two
of them want to do it and theother one doesn't, and I'm like
we either all have to agree or,because I'm one person, because
it's so much easier, this trainis moving in this direction.
But I love what you said aboutthe time at the dining room
(23:45):
table and your kids are askingyou what are you getting into?
Because you have interests,right.
Yes, and I love that because Ilove this story that you said in
the book about how youhomeschooled yourself with the
Florida Highwaymen.
Will you tell that story?
Leslie (23:59):
Yes, yes, yes, one of my favorite stories to tell.
So I'm not even really.
Oh, I think I do remember howit started.
I was sitting, I'm not evenreally.
Oh, I think I do remember howit started.
I was sitting, it was thesummertime, I don't remember
what summer, but I was sittingat a pool with a few other
friends and all of our kids werejust in the water.
And we were all just sittingaround the pool and one friend
(24:19):
said hey, have you ever heard ofthe Florida Highwaymen?
And we all started talking and,you know, some of us had heard
of it, others of us know, orsome of us knew very little.
And we all started talking and,you know, some of us had heard
of it, others of us know, orsome of us knew very little, and
so one friend was just sort ofsharing whatever she knew at
that point.
But it sparked some curiosityfor me and although I had heard
of them, I realized I didn'tknow a lot about them and they
were like from my, my state Ilive in Florida and so what I
(24:42):
did was I started researchingand just little by little I
started reading more thingsabout them and it just got
really interested and reallyweird in a good way, really fast
, because here in Florida, likeyou'll go into like a bank and
if it's like an older bank andthe bank has like older
paintings or photos on the wall,lo and behold, that's a Florida
Highwaymen painting.
(25:02):
Like just it's everywhere, yetnowhere, like not very many
people know about it, and thenall of a sudden you start
realizing it's everywhere.
So around the same time it wasthe summer and I was.
I love art and I was just sortof I just sort of said I really
want to learn how to dolandscape paintings better.
And then it was happeningsimultaneously as my interest in
(25:27):
the Florida Highwaymen, whowere a group of artists who I
think it was the 50s, 60s and70s.
They were painting landscapesin interesting things with
landscape art and they all have,they each have individual
(25:52):
stories about how they startedand got started, how they
learned art.
Some of them knew nothing aboutart but because this became a
way to make money, you had likesome highwaymen coming and
saying, well, come here, I'mgoing to teach you how to slap
paint on this Upsum board andwe're going to sell this and
make money.
And it's like folk art.
You know there's, there's apurpose behind it.
But I got really interested andI so I started painting outdoors
(26:16):
with my children and because itwas an interest of mine, I
invited them along.
I was like you guys want tolearn this with me.
They, they were, they thoughtit was cool too, so they never
really minded.
But like it was extra, like I,I was into it.
I, we went to Fort, we drovedown to Fort Pierce.
I had them sitting out in someof the same locations pulling
(26:37):
out our, our, our sketch stuffand paint and like trying to
repaint some scenes.
We went to the Bacchus Museum.
Down there we went and did theFlorida Heritage Trail, looking
at, you know, some of the placeswhere they've been.
And then I started to find someof the older generation people
(26:57):
who are still alive and stillpainting, or second generation,
their sons and daughters, stillpainting, and we would go and
find where they were doing theseexhibits and just like I'm like
, come on, guys, let's go have achat with them, my kids were
like, oh, a chat, how about that?
Like, yes, yes, let's do it.
But you know, it was so much funand I learned so much about
just this topic that I wasgetting really interested in,
but also about myself.
(27:18):
As I was painting and learningto paint what I was capable of.
I painted in a style that I hadnever done before.
My daughter learned a lot she'san artist too so she naturally
sort of gravitated toward thisis with me and got so interested
in well as well and startedpainting like better than I did
in this same style, and, youknow, you got to sell some of
her paintings.
(27:38):
I met somebody who was actuallytrained under the highwaymen
and he he actually sold us anart piece that was painted on
her birthday that she found likewe just have such cool stories.
It was a really exciting time.
It was an exciting summer whereI was learning and growing and
allowed myself like the freedomand the joy to do it.
(27:59):
And I'll tell you whatcontinuing to homeschool
ourselves and continuing to begrowing responsive human beings
with our own interests andpassions helps us to mentor our
children through that sameprocess, because we remember
what it feels like.
We remember the emotions, theexcitement, the challenges, the
frustrations, and we can mentorour children through some of
(28:20):
those same things rather than,if we're just disconnected from
it, just mom who's sitting theresaying do this, do that, don't
do this Don't do that While I gowash the dishes or what you
know like let's.
can we just acknowledge that we,we all want to be, we all have
a right to our own ideas.
We all want to, we all want tolive with that level of
excitement towards learning.
Learning is fun.
Learning is actually fun, guys.
Delina (28:41):
Yeah, it's true.
And and nothing can.
Two things One, watching yourchildren have that spark in
their eyes and you know seeingtheir eyes dart back and forth
when they're learning somethingand they're thinking through it
Nothing, there's nothing like it.
But the other thing is justthem watching you do the same
thing.
They want it, they want it.
Leslie (29:02):
Yeah, they do and they see.
They also see that becoming anadult is not boring and, like
you know, because, like oftenyou know, I think, as kids
you're looking at adults and yousee all the responsibility
right.
Especially, you know yourteenagers are looking at you
like, wow, you have to shell outa lot of money, pay for these
groceries, pay these insuranceand all this stuff.
(29:25):
It's like responsibilityresponsibility, but it's also
exciting because you continue togrow and you continue to learn
throughout life.
I love talking to like 60 and70 year olds who are like what's
next, what can I learn?
Like they are some of the mostexciting people to talk, to.
Do you know what I mean?
Because they're not.
It's not like there's like sometimeline, like, oh, now you
(29:46):
done.
Delina (29:46):
You can't grow anymore, no, I've learned everything.
I've learned everything.
Yeah, I finished the internetExactly.
Leslie (29:52):
Right.
Our children need to see thatthat, that it's a continuation
of that and it continues to be agrowth.
It continues to be an excitingthing and learning continues to
be an exciting thing, but that'show we create the lifelong
learners.
You know, we throw out thesecute little terms but we don't
really consider what it means tocreate one or what it really
(30:13):
means.
Yeah, you know, and that'swhat's going to get you Practice
.
Delina (30:16):
Get you not going, but get you to keep going.
When all of this responsibilityis like you have to keep
learning something.
You have to keep making lifemake sense.
Exactly.
Leslie (30:27):
Exactly, exactly.
Delina (30:28):
Finding joy in it, right , yeah, so you use the word
becoming a couple of minutes ago.
Talk about that the role ofbecoming versus checking boxes
and how we're you know our rolein that, in helping our children
become, yeah in helping ourchildren become.
Leslie (30:50):
Yeah, I think it goes back to the idea of valuing the
process over the product,because when we the role of
becoming, it is everything thatis involved in that becoming,
and so whenever I think of wordslike that, like process and
becoming, for me, you know,people sometimes misinterpret
what I mean and they think soyou're just after like this
(31:11):
rainbow or this idea ofperfection.
I'm like no process includesall of it.
It includes the struggles, itincludes the challenge, it
includes the joys, it includesthe sadder moments, it includes
everything.
So becoming is like who am Ibecoming?
(31:32):
Alongside of these things, inspite of these things, because
of these things, it is helpingour children to become and to
grow and nurture themselves.
Well, I wanted to read this.
In chapter three of the bookthere's somebody who I quote,
(31:53):
Mark Prensky, who is an authorand speaker known for his ideas
about digital citizenship, andso he wrote the real goal of
education and of school isbecoming becoming a good person
and becoming a more capableperson than when you started.
Our kids should be askingthemselves who am I becoming?
Have I become a better thinker?
If so, in what ways Am I ableto do things I couldn't before.
(32:16):
What is important to me and why?
Can I relate comfortably toindividuals in teams and in
virtual communities?
Can I accomplish bigger, moresophisticated projects to add to
my portfolio?
What kind of person have I hadto become to achieve these
accomplishments?
Can I make the world a betterplace, and for me that stands
(32:36):
out so much?
What kind of person have I hadto become to achieve these
accomplishments?
Those are the things I want toconstantly be talking to my
children about that is so good.
Delina (32:48):
Right Because sometimes we look at people who have
achieved so much and they havebecome horrible bosses horrible
people to be around.
No one can stand them, but westill, you know, put them on a
pedestal because they're sowealthy or they're so, I don't
(33:09):
know, influential.
Leslie (33:10):
Yes, on the process.
But as you're walking throughthat process, you know one of
the things I constantly talk tomy kids about.
(33:30):
As we are looking at ourpersonal projects and
self-directed work.
One of the things that I alwayssay is what does your work say
about you?
And it could be little, I meanfive-year-olds could do this.
I remember I was a schoolteacher and I did a lot of this
kind of work in the classroomand one time we were sitting
around I was sitting around theroom with very young kids and
one child decided to sew a dolland we were just sharing the
(33:54):
work and one of the things thatI helped the kids develop is the
ability to speak descriptively,to not put down somebody or to
speak respectfully, and so oneof the things that they looked
at this person's doll and said Inoticed that you have a lot of
thread that's sort of stickingout of places and it's not
(34:17):
neatly tucked in.
And you know what that childsaid.
She took her doll and shelooked at it and she said I
noticed that everybody is sayingthat my work says that I'm a
messy worker and I'm.
I don't want to be that, so I'mgoing to do this again.
I never sat there and said toher, take the stitches out and
do it again, but she realizedthat she wanted the message that
(34:42):
her work was sending to besomething different.
She was young guys.
Surely we can help 10 year oldsand 11 year olds and 13 year
olds and 16 year olds do thatsame kinds of thinking right
About, like what kind of persondo I have to become to achieve
the things that I am trying toachieve?
Like, what level of consistencydo I need to put into this?
(35:06):
What level of?
Is it OK that I don't give muchattention to this, because
maybe it is OK, but why is it OK?
Maybe I'm trying to put myattention here.
Like you know, I think thoseare certain the kinds of
conversations that we don'toften allow in the learning and
the becoming, but I think thatthey are important.
Delina (35:26):
I love that.
I love all of the self thebecoming, but I think that they
are important.
I love that.
I love all of theself-reflection.
Leslie (35:31):
Yeah.
Delina (35:32):
And yeah, this was not in my notes, but as you were
talking, I was thinking about weneed to do our own
self-reflection, becausesometimes we see our kids dive
deep into something and weimmediately say how can we
monetize this?
How can you sell that on Etsy?
Exactly, you know, you'realmost taking the joy out of
(35:55):
just being their creative selves.
Or sometimes you see them diveinto something and you're
already like, okay, she's goingto be an actress, okay, he's
going to be an engineer.
Leslie (36:07):
Puts his legos together on your future right yes, and I
talk about a lot of that in thebook too, you know, because it's
.
Those are like naturalreactions we have as parents
especially.
We're like you know, we gotta,we're helping you to become
something surely this is whatyou will become because you have
this interest.
you know, yeah, yeah, how tostep back and, uh know, let go a
(36:27):
little bit of that level ofcontrol of the things that they
choose to do and even whothey're choosing to become.
That's hard, and I think that'sactually one of the hardest
things about parenting.
That most of us don't want toadmit is that we can't exactly
control as much as we think thatwe're tasked to, or we think
that we should, and we don'talways know the outcome.
(36:49):
We don't always know theoutcome.
You know we're doing all ofthese things in the hopes that,
but we don't always know whatit's going to yield.
And that's probably one of thehardest things about
homeschooling, but honestly,it's parenting?
Delina (36:59):
Yeah, we want to know or we want to make it happen.
Right yeah.
Yeah, ooh, parenting is a wholething, okay, so in your book
you also talk about teachingyour child and not the
curriculum.
You gave an example of ahistory of curriculum that you
had that was designed for oneyear but you stretched it out
for three years.
(37:20):
I felt like that was a greatexample of teaching the child
and not the curriculum.
But tell me about thatexperience.
Leslie (37:26):
Yeah, yeah.
So, um, I don't actually that's.
That's interesting.
I put that in the book becauseI don't really share that with a
lot of people, cause I I, whenI say certain things like that
to people, they just look at melike yeah, what did you skip if
you took three years Exactly?
Um, yeah, yeah, Like it really.
Um, that is definitely awillingness to, to, to, to look
(37:49):
at things differently.
But you're right, it was agreat example of teaching the
child, not the curriculum,because a lot of times we look
at curriculum and we look at theway it's a, it's a, you know,
six month curriculum or whatever, and so we think we have a duty
(38:10):
to make it, you know begin andend in that time.
And so I think that we can usecurriculum, sure, but I prefer
to use it as a tool, a tool tohelp me with the deeper thinking
and learning that I expect tobe going on regardless of the
curriculum.
And so with the historycurriculum, I loved, I loved the
(38:31):
framework that it gave me.
It gave me some great topicsand it gave me some great like.
It organized for me sort oflike a body of knowledge of a
particular time in history in aparticular country, but it
wasn't everything and it didn'tnecessarily include the things
that we gravitated to and wereinterested in.
So, you know, let's say, youknow, we got to this one chapter
(38:54):
or one particular time periodand you know it was talking
about different people planningthe development of Washington DC
, I don't know.
And we started learning about,and then one kid learned about
Benjamin Banneker, but therewasn't enough in this curriculum
to even talk about who he wasor what he did, like, okay, well
, why?
Like, you want to know moreabout him?
(39:14):
Let's go off grid a little bit,you know, let's go ahead and
invite that in and learn about.
Oh, and what do you know?
That leads to something elseand that leads to something else
.
And it's like when it stopsleading to somewhere, it's like
okay, stops leading to somewhere, it's like okay, let's go back,
let's go back here.
And when you do stuff like that, it's a little scary, but it
definitely takes a lot of timeand and so but.
But the things that we wereable to do were applicable to us
(39:40):
, they were personal to us.
They, the learning was so muchmore rich.
Yeah, you know, it's like sure.
The thing is is that we foolourselves when we think that
because you didn't, okay, butyou went so deep, you know, on
this particular time in history,what about the entire timeline
(40:00):
of history?
And it's like, okay, so youthink that just doing this
cursory, cursory run through,run through it all, if I ask you
in three years to tell meeverything on that timeline, do
you really believe you'll beable to do it with accuracy?
Do you really believe that youwill be able to talk about it in
any sort of meaningful way,just because you covered it and
(40:21):
read it and got through itquickly and did all the
activities and read, watched allthe videos.
Probably you know.
So let's use that curriculum asa tool.
It's a great tool.
It organized a lot, it gave mea lot of great resources, but
it's not all there is for thisbody of knowledge, right?
So I can incorporate othertools, and you know.
And then there are times whenyou know we can just move
(40:44):
through it more quickly becausemaybe that connection or that
vibrant interest just isn'tthere, and that's okay too.
So, yeah, this, this curriculum, stretched out over three years
.
Delina (40:54):
No, and I I think that it it's an opportunity for
self-reflection for the parentthat's doing you know that has a
curriculum, because you thinkthat if you do it exactly like
this, then what does it sayabout me that I finished it when
it was supposed to?
Be finished you know, and soyou have to take a step back and
(41:14):
be like doesn't actually sayanything about you.
There's no prize at the end fordoing this.
Leslie (41:19):
There's no prize, but some of it is like personality
type because some personalitytypes it's like you just get
that joy and satisfaction ofjust checking out that box and
saying yes.
I completed a task, I did it andI get that.
I really really do.
But what is taught is notalways equal to what is learned
(41:48):
to also realize that you know inthe book I brought up this
example back in the.
Was it the 90s, 80s?
No, I think it was 90s or no.
Probably no, it was probablythe 2000s, the early 2000s that
show Are you Smarter Than aFifth Grader?
Delina (41:57):
Right.
Leslie (41:59):
What was so funny about that show was all the adults who
failed miserably, you know,because they could not remember
like grade school curricularcontent and it's like, well,
that's kind of I felt like thatwas exactly the point, right
Like.
Delina (42:10):
Maybe not the point they were trying to make.
Yeah, right, right.
Leslie (42:12):
Right.
Delina (42:13):
Yep Perfect example.
Yeah, how you're not going toremember this stuff later.
And it's okay, it's okay.
So have you, leslie, ever feltthe pressure of joining the pace
of the culture?
And how did you resist that ifyou did feel that?
Leslie (42:27):
pressure.
I have many, many, conversationsthroughout the day and
throughout the week in my headSome of the things that I have
intentionally tried to do.
You know, there are some things, yes, that may become more
easily to me than somebody else,but it doesn't mean that I am
not bombarded by fearfulthoughts or it doesn't mean that
I sometimes second guess whatI'm doing or question.
(42:48):
You know, I have, I have somechildren with some very real
learning differences, includingdyslexia, dyscalculia, and so
you constantly asking questionslike, oh my gosh, like what am I
doing?
Am I really, am I doing mychild a disservice?
Am I like?
What's the right move here?
Yes, I have all those kinds ofthoughts, but some of the things
that I've really had to do wasto slow down, step back and be
(43:13):
descriptive about and reflectiveabout my experience and what
I'm seeing and noticing in thechildren.
But I have also had to bereally clear about what my
values are, and by really clear,basically, that means spell
them out, say them, reflect onthem, notice when they change
and keep that at the forefront,because those are the things
(43:35):
that keep me going.
Everybody has the negativefears and thoughts and the
questions, but it's keepingthose values at the forefront.
You know, even in terms of Ihighly value.
You know you always hear thisexpression, but for me it's like
reality, connection overcurriculum.
(43:55):
For me, that is a high value.
When I sit down and do math withmy, with a kid, I want us to
both get up from that experience, not angry with each other.
And so I have to behavedifferently in those moments.
I can't I can't controlanything they do, but I can
control me, and so sometimesthat means scrapping my plans
(44:16):
for the day.
Sometimes it means shorteningmy plans for the day, being
responsive to the human being infront of me.
The other day, my son got up,you know, which is not always
the case.
He got up and after I sat downand I was working on some math
with him and he said I love you,I love you, mommy, and I was so
happy, like that was hisresponse when we closed the book
.
And then I looked at him and Isaid I love you more than math,
(44:37):
and he was like I love you morethan math too, you know, but
that's a high value for me.
And so there are choices thatI'm going to have to make when
I'm doing.
Math is just one example.
There are choices that I'mgoing to have to make when I'm
doing math to align my life withthat value, to align my time
with that value.
(44:58):
So for me, that's the thingthat keeps me honest, keeps me
true to what I'm doing andallows me to keep going and
making the choices I'm making.
It doesn't mean that I don'thave those thoughts, but like,
allow them to exist, but reflecton them and evaluate what they
mean for your life.
About, about you know wherethat idea is even coming from.
(45:19):
Like, do the do the personalwork, the inner work that you
need to do to be able toovercome those things?
Because you know every, everyfeeling is coming from an idea
and every idea, like all ofthose things, are coming from
somewhere.
So, just as easily as it is tofocus on that idea, we can put
our focus elsewhere and thenhave different feelings you know
, yeah, this is like homeschoolmom therapy.
Delina (45:43):
I appreciate this therapy session, no joke.
Seriously, when I read thisbook, I felt two things
nostalgic for our homeschoollife that we had when the kids
were younger.
And then I wanted to go snatchthem right out of their high
schools, like no, we're notdoing this pace, no more, I
don't care what anybody says, Idon't care about nothing, I
(46:04):
don't even care what y'all say.
That's what I felt like and Imessaged you in that moment.
I was like I'm snatching themout today, but you said that you
can still incorporate some ofthe important parts, no matter
where they're in school.
So you know asking for a friend, of course Tell me how families
(46:27):
who don't homeschool canincorporate more slow in their
lives.
Leslie (46:31):
Yeah, you know that is actually one thing.
Response to this book that Ihave been really excited and
delighted by is the people whosay that this to them is, yes,
about education, yes, aboutlearning, but is so much more
about parenting.
Because I think that you knowother ideas in the book about
(46:53):
the idea of slow.
It's about less consumption andinstant gratification and more
gratitude and ways to give, andthose are things that you can
think about as a family, nomatter where education is
happening.
You know you can slow downmoments of learning that you
feel are going by way too fastfor your own child in that
(47:15):
setting, at home, by beingintentional, by saying no, I
care about your well-being, Icare about your interest.
Still Like, let's explore aninterest and pursue an interest.
Who says that can't happen on aweekend?
Or who says that that can'thappen after school?
Or I mean, I was a schoolteacher and as a school it was a
very nontraditional setting sowe didn't.
(47:36):
I didn't believe in homework soI didn't give it, but you know
other teachers did.
But I love those conversationswhere the parent would be like I
don't want to do this.
Delina (47:44):
I don't want to.
Leslie (47:46):
I'm like, okay, why?
Because they had other valuableways to spend their time.
Great, great, you know, like I.
Just you know, or even you know, maybe that's not you, maybe
you do have to do the homework.
Then you know what.
Slow down, sit next to you.
Slow down, stop vacuuming, stopdoing laundry, go sit down, get
(48:07):
in the same physical space withyour child, struggle with them.
Let me try one of thoseproblems.
Just sit next to them, shoulderto shoulder, and do that.
Or talk about hey, what booksare you reading now in that
class?
Any of them really like?
Yeah, mom, I really like thisone.
Go for a drive, Especiallyolder kids.
They love the somebody.
I love the way they describedit as like parallel facing
(48:28):
activities.
It's like get nervous when youdo the eye contact, you know,
but it's like you're both,you're driving and they're in
the car.
You're both facing the samedirection, but you just have
this great conversation aboutsome book that they really love.
Hey, that reminds me of thisbook that I read.
Like have a real conversation.
One of the things I talk aboutin the book is the art of
conversation.
As parents, we sometimes fireoff questions to our kids and
call that conversation.
(48:49):
Conversation is give and take.
How do you have a conversationexcuse me, a conversation with
your friend?
Have a conversation like thatwith your child, like no matter
what age they are, like theseare all things that can be
happening no matter where yourchild does school.
You can slow down, you can bemore intentional.
You can do things that fill youup as a family.
You can do things that areagainst the green or the pace of
(49:10):
life.
Go ahead and go out, go out ona hike, go out on a walk, go to
a park.
You know I like to take walksand I call them different things
.
I say to my kids let's take athinking walk or let's take a
noticing walk, and we are likeliterally, just give me a city
street and we are just walkingdown the road noticing things
like oh my gosh, did you eversee that on top of that building
, that's such a nice slowactivity, you know, or let's a
(49:32):
thinking walk, like you know,like you're not really noticing
what's around you Cause you'relike deep in thought over about
something.
Everybody be quiet.
Yeah, you know, one time we Idiscovered that we actually like
doing this back in 2020.
It was weird, but not weirdanymore.
We went out on a walk we had towalk the dog and I put on an
audio book on my phone as wewere going and we all it was
(49:53):
like.
We were like it's like, let'sgo walk and listen to an audio
book.
I don't know, you know we putthose two things together, but
we actually discovered that weloved it.
It helped us to just slow down,take a class together, explore
an interest together.
You know there's so many ideas.
There's so many ways that thiscould live and breathe, no
matter where education ishappening.
(50:14):
That's just a piece of it.
We're all responsible for ourchildren's education in many
ways, no matter where school ishappening.
Delina (50:22):
I love that.
I love that.
Thank you so much, leslie, forjust sharing all your wisdom
with us, and y'all pick up thebook.
It is wherever you buy yourbooks, that's where you'll find
it, and I'll also have a link toit on the show notes.
But, leslie, will you also tellus where to, because I love
your Instagram too, so let ustell us where to find you on
social media, sure.
Leslie (50:43):
On social media.
I am most active on Instagramand you can find me at Leslie M
Martino.
You have to stick that M inthere for Instagram, but you can
find my website atlesliemartinocom.
You can see my blog there.
Sign up for my newsletter allthe stuff.
Delina (50:57):
I love it.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Delina.
I enjoyed this.
I can't say enough good thingsabout Leslie and her book.
Find links to her book and hersocial media on our website
wokehomeschoolingcom slashpodcast.
I encourage you to grab herbook and see how you can take
some of the principles in thereto enrich your child's learning
(51:18):
life and even to find new waysto homeschool yourself.
Until next time, go and learnsomething today.
Announcer (51:34):
Homeschool Yourself is a production of Woke
Homeschooling Inc.
For show notes and links tothings mentioned in the episode,
visit wokehomeschoolingcomslash podcast.
Woke Homeschooling empowersparents to teach their kids an
inclusive, truthful history.
We invite you to visit ourwebsite and download a sample of
the history curriculum we offerfor kids.
(51:54):
Visit us atwokehomeschoolingcom.
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