Amanda is joined by Annie Lawton who is a mother, a story teller, an author and one bad ass business owner who is here to help us see that motherhood IS chaotic and that is okay. We are all a mess and we are just all trying to do our best everyday and this conversation will normalize that.
Included in this episode:
- We are in a new era of parenting, the real question everyone wants to know - Is is easier?!
- What has PPD and mental illness taught both Amanda and Annie.
- Grief and Guilt. How do they show up now in this stage of parenting?
- Neurodivergency and BIG feelings in both of these houses, how are we dealing?
- Marital struggles - can we all agree that being married is hard af? Annie and Amanda are getting real about marriage and the white picket fence.
Follow Amanda on IG: @amanda.gurman
Follow Annie on IG: @annielawton_
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode, the
first official episode of therelaunch of the Honest as a
Mother podcast.
This episode I have recordedbatch, recorded quite a few
episodes in the last month or soand this episode really stood
out to me and I feel like has alittle dash of everything for
(00:42):
you guys.
To really kick this off, I haveAnnie Lawton back on the
podcast with me this week.
You may remember, annie was aprevious guest, probably a year
or so now, maybe even two yearsoh gosh, probably two years ago
where she came on the podcastand talked a lot about her
(01:04):
incredible book Welcome to theJungle, which you may or may not
have read already.
So Annie is a local author andher book is full of stories that
she has written throughout herlife and kind of they all
pertain to her becoming a motherand it is funny, very relatable
(01:25):
, just a really wonderful book.
So if you haven't checked itout, please, for the love of god
, go get a copy.
Because number one, supportinga local author, is wonderful,
but number two, truly, annie'swriting is so incredible and
she's so relatable and so funny,so she's actually one of the
first people.
Annie.
I'm not trying to get like toomushy here, but truly she is one
(01:50):
of the first people.
When I met her, she took myfeelings out of my head and put
them on paper inside her bookand when I met her, just her
kind of explaining herexperience in motherhood, her
experience with mental illness,overall.
She spoke so deeply to mebecause what she was
(02:10):
experiencing was so similar towhat I was experiencing, but I
was never able to put it intowords until I met Annie, so I
knew I needed to have her backon the podcast.
So we're kind of diving allover the place.
But we are talking about ourstage of parenting now and why
(02:33):
are we still struggling?
And so I laugh because I feellike I get this question a lot
of like.
Is being a mom easier now thatyour kids are older?
And I used to fucking hate,like hated, when people would
tell me it doesn't get easier,it just gets different.
Well, guys, it doesn't geteasier, it just gets different.
(02:53):
Here I am saying those wordsthat I've hated for so long, but
they're true, and so I don'tfeel like parenting is any
easier now, it's just very, verydifferent.
My hard now looks verydifferent from my hard five
years ago.
So Annie and I are diving intothat.
We talk a lot about what mentalillness and postpartum
(03:15):
depression has taught us and wereally get quite vulnerable here
, especially Annie.
She gets really vulnerableabout her grief and her guilt
following postpartum depression.
We're talking about how we feellike we were robbed right, and
so many of us experienced that,where we're like I wish I could
(03:36):
go back and now, being a parentof a six and an eight-year.
Annie has children similar inage.
She has a third child who isyounger, but we are both
experiencing this grief kind ofcome up in different ways, and
so I think an interestingconversation about this is
(03:57):
really like we think we'vegotten through the postpartum,
but the reality is it's stillshowing up six, eight years
later, and so we're kind oftalking a lot about that.
We're talking about the bigfeelings in our household.
Annie and I both also relatefrom a neurodivergent point of
(04:19):
view, where ourselves, ourchildren, we suspect or we know
and it's just incrediblychallenging.
I feel like my house is full ofpeople with extremely big
feelings and I think everyperson in my house is a highly
sensitive person, and some daysit's just so much, and so Annie
(04:40):
is sharing with me how her houseis very, very similar.
We're also talking about whatit's really like to raise older
kids in this world of socialmedia and phones and video games
and online video games andtalking with their friends
online and kids Facebookmessenger.
And you know, we both have achild who is eight, and so this
(05:02):
is like real shit.
That's coming at us really fastand it feels like we don't know
if we're making the rightdecision or not.
And then we also are talkingabout the reality of what mental
health struggles and being insurvival mode can do to your
marriage, and I love this partof the conversation because I do
(05:23):
feel like this part of theconversation is not spoken
enough about.
I feel like it's very much likethe postpartum period, I feel
like.
But now a lot of people aretalking about how hard the
postpartum period is, but Idon't feel like a lot of people
are talking about what thatpostpartum period does to your
(05:44):
marriage and how moving forward,being in survival mode for so
many years, does to yourmarriage.
I don't think people aretalking enough about the
realities of what it's like tobe married with little kids and
really choose each other andchoose every single day your
(06:04):
marriage, your relationship andall of those challenges that
come in between.
And Annie and I are talkingabout it.
Like I said, this episode kindof jumps all over the place, but
it is the realest episode Ihave ever done and I'm so
grateful, annie, that you cameback on the podcast and I just I
love you, I love your stories,I love your realness, like.
(06:27):
Thank you so much for coming on.
And so, without further ado,welcome back Annie Lawton to the
Honest as a Mother podcast.
Hi, annie, I'm so excited tohave you back on the podcast.
Welcome, welcome back, thankyou.
Thank you, I'm so glad you'rehere.
(06:47):
You're just like someone who,you're just my people, you know.
And even even today, when youwere like I need like the seven
minutes I need to shower, likeevery time you do something like
this, it's just so relatable, Iget it, I feel seen and heard,
(07:07):
and so I appreciate when you dopost.
Also, I love the fact that youare also like me and you make me
feel better because I don'tpost all the time.
Yeah, like I just don't havethe capacity to do it, yeah.
And then I'm like but I want todo all of these things, but
then like posting and reels andeverything is like on the very
bottom of my list.
(07:29):
So I appreciate that you alsodo that, because you make me
feel better, like I don't haveto do it.
Do you ever feel like that?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, I mean it's funny because I work as a
strategic marketing consultant.
I know what I have to be doingin order to like hang out with
the algorithm and, you know, bepopular there.
I don't want like I would loveif people stumbled upon me and
stuck around, but like I don'thave the time or energy or like
(07:57):
I just I can't keep up with it.
Yeah, and I do it for myclients all day and like it.
Just I want it to be authenticand it's.
It's funny, Like I'm alreadyjumping into things.
I'm sorry but I love it.
I uh I'm going through this likehuge transition where my, my
baby, my last baby, just wentoff to JK this week and I'm
(08:18):
starting to think, okay, I canreally go from freelancing, as
you know copywriter, marketingconsultant, whatever to like
running this as more of abusiness, like working more
full-time hours.
So I hired a business coach tokind of help me figure out what
that was going to look like andone of their things was is like
that you go to my Instagram pageand there's bunnies and there
(08:41):
are dogs and there are kids andthere's work stuff and there is
like me holding snakes and justlike all, and she's like what do
you do?
And I was like but this is whoI am right, so I don't know.
I think you just have to showup authentic and the people will
come that's what I always feellike too.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
I'm always always like I need to do this, I need
to do that, but then thatdoesn't feel like me.
So I think that's why we feelthat pull to like not Exactly,
exactly.
So I'm really excited that youtouched on like something I
wanted to talk to you about,because I feel like and I don't
know about you, but I alwaysfeel like I am being like
(09:24):
pigeonholed in this, likepostpartum Amanda, who struggled
so bad with her mental health,and I always get like stuck in
this like era.
But we're in this new era ofparenting, still struggling with
mental health at times likethat.
That part has not changed.
(09:45):
Just we've lost the postpartumarea, can we still?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
well, actually fact.
I heard that postpartumactually is up until your child
is seven years old, sotechnically my youngest is four.
I have three years left to youknow.
Claim this postpartum stuff,but in all honesty, postpartum
depression definitelyhighlighted the fact that I was
(10:10):
neglecting my other mentalhealth issues for a long time.
So there's.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
that Do you ever feel like and this is a side note
but I've had this kind of likeaha feeling over the last couple
of years where I don't feellike aha feeling over the last
couple of years, where I don'tfeel like I used to say I felt
like I became a mom and I becameso lost, and then now kind of
working because I feel the sameas you.
Like these things were therebefore postpartum, just kind of
(10:37):
magnified them, but I actuallyfeel like my children saved me,
even though I became mentallyill and struggled immensely.
I feel like if I didn't havethat, I would not be this person
I am now yeah, so, oh god,shameless plug.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I hate to do.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
That's what my book is actually yes, you're right,
I've read your book.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yes, fantastic thank you and I.
A big thing there is that, youknow, as young girls and as
young women, we are built up tonot like, we're, not we're.
We're always told we're not goodenough, right, like, and we
want to be more popular and wewant to pursue certain careers,
because maybe that's what willmake our families happy.
(11:20):
And like so, as we go throughlife, as we're taking out a
piece of us and then we shove apiece of somebody into that
space and um, then all whilebeing told, by the way, that,
like, becoming a mom is theultimate goal like so we're
taking pieces out, workingtowards becoming a mom, and then
we become a mom and we're piss,a piss, we're a piss of swiss
(11:45):
cheese, we are a piece of swisscheese, and what I think is that
you bring these sweet littlebabies into the world and they
are so pure and so innocent andso authentic in their own way,
and you don't want them tochange, you want them to just be
them.
I'm going to start gettingemotional here.
And it just shines a slightthrough all of your holes and
(12:09):
you're like, oh crap, like I'm,I've given up so many pieces of
who I am to try and fitsociety's expectations of me.
And now I have to build myselfback together while, like with
mastitis and a ripped vajayjay,like it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
It really doesn't.
And like when you wrote aboutthat in your book I'm so
grateful that you did, because Ijust feel like there's so many
women who don't see it that wayand as soon as I started to see
it that way, and as soon as Istarted to see it that way, and
then I just feel like cyclebreaking and everything else is
kind of wrapped up in there.
But do you feel, I'm curious,do you feel like this is harder?
(12:55):
Like I feel like now that I'veopened my eyes or woken up, or
whatever the frick we want tocall it, I feel like everybody
looks at me now like I have fiveheads.
Like you know, I left my jobbecause I was super unhappy, but
I feel like my kids started allof this, like they started to
(13:19):
let me see who I really am andwhat do I really want, and ask
the questions of like whodecided I wanted to go into this
career?
Oh, that wasn't me.
Yeah, that was like societytold me I would have a great
life because I'd have benefitsand a pension and good pay, but
I never see my children, who Iwant to be with.
(13:39):
And like, did you?
Are you finding that too?
Like I'm finding a lot of likesocial norms are kind of like
looking at me like well, whatthe fuck are you doing?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, I mean yes and no.
I think, on one hand, thepandemic opened up this whole
world of flying by the seat ofyour pants a little bit and
doing what feels right for youand your family.
On the other side, I thinkthere's still a bit of a
generational gap when it comesto like what stability looks
(14:10):
like from a financialperspective and you know, having
the house and having the joband having the pension and the
savings and all of that stuff.
But for me it's like you knowwhat my house and my job and
none of that matters if my kidsare never going to be able to
afford to go throughpost-secondary school and be
(14:32):
able to purchase a house in thelong run not make them feel like
they need to fulfill thisexpectation and be more flexible
with the options that they havedown the road.
So I think our generation isgetting a little bit more
(14:55):
flexible in what that looks like, but I think there's still this
idea that like there needs tobe a bit more stability and less
um, what does dave, my husband,what does he say?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
that I am spontaneity but the spontaneity is so I
don't know it's better and likeI just feel like me making less
money but being with my children, like I get to go pick my kids
up every day from school.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
And we go to the park after school and then I come
home and we have dinner together, like I get to take them to
school every day and without thewhole, like I'm sure your kids
have the same thing.
Like well, you just said youhad one that just started
kindergarten.
But like one of my childrenreally struggles to go to school
and last year it was like okay,but I need you to like shut up,
(15:47):
go to school.
Because, like I really got togo, I got to be at my shift, I
got to be at my desk, I got tobe there on time, no-transcript
doing anything for him.
It was more just like please,for the love of god, please stop
crying, because I need you togo to school oh, yeah, yeah, and
I think that, gosh, there's somany things to say here.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
I think on one hand, we need to dig into like the
privilege of being able toreduce hours and be there for
our kids there's there's a mixof privilege and then there's
like necessity.
Yeah, I actually went back tocorporate.
I tried to go back to corporatelast year.
Most people in my in my circledon't know that Um and I ended
(16:28):
up.
I was, I was recruited.
I was completely transparentwith the fact that I have a
child who has school resistance.
He has a very difficult timegoing to school.
He has run away from the schoolLike it takes an hour to
transition and in the morning.
So I was very clear that Ifreelanced to support that being
(16:49):
able to be there.
They still hired me and withintwo months I was fired for being
late twice to team meetings andthat followed with so much
resentment towards my husband.
Um, it's not even his fault, butI was like you make more money
than I do, so your job is thepriority and I have to keep like
(17:14):
giving up bits of my wants anddesires because we have a child
that that needs us to be thereand the world.
It just isn't accommodating meand there's arguments to be made
that the world doesn't have toaccommodate me, and that's fine.
But then I'm put in a positionwhere I have to create a world
that accommodates me for myself,and I think that's what you and
(17:36):
I are doing when it comes tomaking accommodations for our
mental health.
Like do we want to be workingfull-time?
Like there, there's a goodchance.
If things were easier and thecircumstances were different,
maybe we would want to workfull-time, can we?
It's not realistic.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I think that's something too like.
That has become more apparentas my children are getting older
, because I think there's alsothis thought of like I've had so
many parents ask me is iteasier?
And I would say actually no, Ithink it's.
So I would say two things.
I feel like the physicaldemands of my children are much
(18:17):
less.
I sleep a lot more than I usedto.
Almost every night someonedoesn't bug me, that's not true.
Once a week, twice a week,somebody bugs me in the night.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
I'm so happy for you.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Where's the wood I need the fucking wood Give me
the wood.
Yeah, but like so.
So there's that.
Um, I don't need to feedanybody.
I still can have to cook forthem, but I can give them a
plate.
They go to the bathroom ontheir own.
I can ask them to get dressedand brush their teeth.
Do they do that?
Yeah, sense, yes, but there issomething to be said about that.
(19:01):
Bigger kids, bigger problems,like when we've got friendship
problems and we've got schoolresistance and we have anxiety,
and you know, one of my childrenhas had panic attacks like it's
.
It's like all of a sudden,they're real human beings does
that make sense?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
yeah, and I have a question for you because I feel
like you might be one of the fewpeople I know that can maybe
understand this.
I've actually been going totherapy for the last two years
like intensive therapy to dealwith PTSD, the guilt and all of
that stuff from like dealingwith the postpartum depression
(19:42):
in the early days.
I look back at pictures and Isee that I was there for them
and I was showing up, but theexperience I had I selfishly and
like I'm, I'm carrying so muchgrief with me and so much guilt
and I look at my kids and I lookat where they struggle and I
blame myself and I look at howawesome they are and how
(20:07):
freaking sweet their little toeswere back in the day and I want
to go back.
So bad, like so bad, and Inever could have imagined
wanting to go back to that placewhen I was in it.
But my husband he had avasectomy after our daughter was
born four years ago.
I've literally and this feelsso selfish because I am so
blessed to have my threechildren I am grieving so hard.
(20:30):
I want a fourth baby.
So bad, not actually, notactually.
But I've been dealing with somuch grief and having to go
through so much therapy tonavigate all of the messy
feelings that have come withparenting, after that like being
a new mom.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
After that experience Totally, I completely resonate
and I have experienced the samething and I think in the last
year since I've kind of reallyrealized a lot of things about
myself and same I have been intherapy for quite some time now
and she's been really supportiveto this, but like I feel like
(21:08):
this whole year all I'veexperienced is grief, like I'm
grieving that person that wentthrough postpartum and I do
experience a lot more now thatall of those things have come up
of the yeah, the guilt.
And the other night I lost mymind on Scarlett.
Honestly, the week beforeschool she was such a dick.
(21:28):
Also, we need to normalize thefact that your kids are dicks,
it's fine, they just, they justare sometimes and like she was
just anxious about school, butyou know, I'm doing everything
in my power and nothing wasworking and she was just getting
mean and so I lost my cool andthat whole night.
I'm a horrible mother.
(21:49):
I'm a terrible mother and it'slike those things come back.
And so I totally get whatyou're saying, because I feel
like there is like a PTSDcomponent where you're like, oh
my God, I've totally screwedthis up and oh my God, I
remember when she was a baby andso she was the one I struggled
with and I carry a lot of guiltwith that too.
Sometimes, when we don'tconnect right away, I'm like, oh
my God, is this because Ididn't love her as much at the
(22:10):
beginning, as much as I lovedConnor?
Like, have I totally fucked allof this up?
Yeah, and I know that I haven't.
I know, do you understand whenI feel like?
I know that I logically I havenot, but I feel like emotionally
and like deep within mysubconscious no, I don't
actually know that.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah, yeah, yep, yep.
No, because I think we arealways going to doubt ourselves
always, always always, and weknow what's realistic and we
know what we would tell otherpeople in our shoes.
But that doesn't change thatthere's this like heavy
emotional burden that you carrybecause those are your babies,
you know.
And one thing I will say I cameacross this post on Reddit the
(22:50):
other day and it was like olderadults of you know, kids who
have good relationships withyour parents.
Why is that?
And literally all of the topcomments were my parents are
human, my parents made mistakes.
My parents owned up andapologized when they had to
apologize and had conversationswith us and like, made it just
(23:13):
transparent and didn't like so Ireally like I struggle because
I don't want my kids to dealwith or know about adult
problems.
But, on, on the other hand,they've seen me cry, they've
seen me go through loss of lovedones and deal with grief and
all of that stuff, and I try totalk about it rather than just
(23:33):
like cry about it by myself inmy room at night, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
I think it's not like it's healthy for them to know
that we have feelings.
And I did the same thing.
Like I apologized to Scarlettand when I was apologizing I
started to cry and she was likewhy are you crying?
And I was just like I just youknow mommy feels bad that she
yelled at you, but like I'm hereto tell you that I'm sorry and
(23:57):
to you know next time.
You know the whole thing, but Ithink it's good because they
can see that like okay, my mom'sa human being and she has real
feelings.
And my kids are no stranger tofeelings.
And I think sometimes I do youever feel like your kids?
Or like maybe not you, but somepeople feel like their kids are
a problem because they have somany feelings, and I definitely
(24:19):
used to think that was a problembefore.
That I understood, but now that, like I see when my kids cry or
have a meltdown or whatever,what they're showing me is
they're like comfortable to dothis in front of me and they'll
talk to me about what's actuallygoing on, as opposed to just
crying and being a jerk and thennot telling me.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Oh for sure, and I think you and I can both agree
the number of times people sayyour kids feel safe with you and
you're like oh good, like great, they feel safe to like throw
it down, call me names, you know, do all that stuff, awesome.
But really I know lots ofpeople that would never have the
(24:57):
types of reactions and feelingsthat my kids do with me, with
their own parents, and as hardas it is on us, there is some
safety there for them and I hopethat translates into their teen
years, because I can't evenbegin to tell you how scared I
am for when they becometeenagers if they still have the
same attitude and personalitiesthat they have now.
(25:17):
There's one kid in particularthat, like I, am in trouble.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I think about it on the regular.
Oh yeah, I am.
I actually was in thepediatrician's office, so
Scarlett is sick right now andshe we had to get she has
pneumonia.
She's totally fine,everything's right.
But like mom gut, my mom gutwas like something is different
(25:44):
or I need to call the doctor.
My husband thought I was apsychopath they always do they
never trust us, no, but thedoctor said to me oh no, when a
mom comes in here and says Ihave a feeling, I'm like, okay,
send them for whatever test themom wants yeah, yeah, amazing
but so when I was in there shewas like flipping her hair back
(26:05):
and like doing her thing, likeshe's like full of sass, and he
just said to me good luck, oh,like 10 years.
I said you can't say that to me,you're a doctor you can't say
that to me, and he was like no,I can and I'm just telling you
right now good luck, she's gonnahave boys lined up out the door
.
The attitude is already thereand it totally is.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
However, I am kind of proud of the attitude because I
have a daughter that you cannotfuck with yeah, yeah, honestly,
it's, it's, she's, she's strongand she knows it and she's like
letting that radiate throughher and that's awesome.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I love it because, as the people pleaser that I am
that.
I am like in therapy for yearsand years and years because of
yep, I love it.
I love it like she's gonna takeover the goddamn world and I'm
not gonna be any.
I'm gonna be so proud.
Yeah, no.
Well, my daughter told you tofuck off.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Well, you probably deserved it at some point yeah,
I think I wrote about this onetime.
My son went to school.
He had a supply teacher.
He was, he has an IEP.
He was, you know, struggling tosit and was fidgeting and
talking and all this stuff andthe supply teacher goes to him.
What would your mom think if sheknew that you were like, acting
(27:18):
out this way?
And I will say my son has likethe biggest heart, like he.
I know a lot of parents, well,I don't know.
I know when my parent, when mykids are being little shits,
yeah, but I also know whenthey're trying really hard and
in that moment I know he did notdeserve that type of feedback
and he turned to the teacher andhe goes.
(27:41):
I know my mommy would be reallyproud of me because I tried and
I like the fact that that stuckwith him.
Like you never know what'sgonna stick.
And then I even find too, whenyou're having a hard time, the
way your kids react to you issuch a reflection of the type of
(28:01):
love that you give them.
And in some of my hardestmoments it's my kids that remind
me that I'm actually doing agood job because of the way that
they're like you're no mommy,you're great, I love you.
Like it's just yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, my daughter will generally interrupt me,
especially if she, like she doeslike the bedtime, like can I
tell you one more thing?
Can I have a drink?
Can I have another story?
Can I have a whatever?
Whatever, it is right.
And so, like the fourth orfifth time, like my feet like
are getting heavier, and I guessshe can tell because she'll go
(28:40):
okay, mom, can I tell yousomething?
First, Do you need to rainbowbreathe?
Oh my gosh, what's the rainbowbreath?
Okay, you go beautiful yep.
Or five finger breathe, mom, doyou need, do you need to mean
to count the five fingerbreathing for you?
And then I kind of want to hither a little bit, yeah, no, when
(29:03):
they pull that like reversepsychology stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
The other day one of my husband was having a tough go
and one of my kids goes Daddy'sjust a flower that hasn't
blossomed yet, and I was likewhat does that even mean?
But also he kind of is and Itell them all the time I'm like
look like mommy and daddy, whilewe may be in our mid thirties,
(29:27):
we are still growing up andlearning every single day, just
like you are.
And like, just like today is anew day for you, today's a new
day for us, and we might comeacross stuff that like we
haven't learned before and we'regoing to learn it together, and
we might not be perfect at itthe first time, but like we
haven't learned before and we'regoing to learn it together, and
we might not be perfect at itthe first time, but like this is
just the way that it goes.
I'll be learning forever andhopefully by the end of my life.
(29:48):
I've made a good impression,but like we won't know until we
get there.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
I know, and I think that's like, I was having this
conversation yesterday at thepark with one of the moms and I
think that what you're saying islike we just the not knowing
part is the hardest part inparenting, right, like she was
kind of concerned about likesome personality traits of her
child now that, like ouryoungest are in grade one and
(30:17):
making friends and keepingfriends and are they going to
pick the right friends.
And because that right and Iwas like we have officially lost
all control, like and I thinkthat's where I would argue that
now is actually harder than thenewborn.
Even though I hated the newborn, even though I hate not
(30:39):
sleeping, all of that wasincredibly hard.
I'm not downplaying that, Ikind of want to go back to it oh
, 100% like.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
My oldest is in grade three this year, but last year
in grade two, one of the boysthat he liked to hang around
with had an iPhone and kept intrying to add me to snapchat and
kept asking my kid to get onsnapchat.
And I was like bud, like you'renot getting snapchat and it's
(31:06):
so hard to lay down the law.
And my other one, my middle,who's in grade one, is playing
fortnite.
And all of a sudden I went downthe other day and I was like
who are these people that you'replaying with?
And he's like they're myfriends.
And I was like from where?
Well, mommy, from the internet,they're my friends from the
with.
And he's like they're myfriends.
And I was like from where?
Well, mommy, from the internet,they're my friends from the
internet.
And I was like, oh, my goodnessgracious, because I know, when
(31:31):
I was in grade six, seven, eight, I was ASS ASLing.
What did we do?
Age sex location.
Yeah, age sex location.
I was playing Pictionary on inthose AOL instant messaging chat
rooms playing with goodnessknows who, but it's so much
scarier now.
So I had to like go through hislist and I was like who is this
, who is this and I feel likethey're already outsmarting me
(31:54):
at six and eight, like I can'teven keep on top of it I don
don't disagree with you.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I have a six and an eight year old too, and my eight
year old, specifically he islike the same plays Fortnite.
We there is a uh, I'll find out, there is a way that you can do
it.
So Connor can only playFortnite with people that he
knows, and my husband has it.
So you can shut off everything,so Connor can't hear anybody
else except for whoever he'splaying with.
(32:22):
Okay, okay, so like him and hislittle friends do facebook
messenger anyway, like they'llcall face.
Yes, they facetime each otheror whatever on kids messenger.
But even that that kills me,like my, because it's connected
to my phone.
My phone doesn't stop fuckingringing after three o'clock and
I'm just like when did yourfriends become so important?
Speaker 2 (32:42):
yeah, I I got.
I got a screenshot from afriend of mine the other day of
pictures that like I guess myfour-year-old and my
eight-year-old had been sendingthem, wearing like putting on
all the filters of, like themwith glasses and floating
through space and like justbombarded everybody on their
list.
And my friend was like I justsaw this and I'm dying and I was
(33:03):
like, oh my god, like it's.
It scares me because that's theworld we're raising kids in and
I want them to be safe and Iwant them to have access to
their friends.
But then I read a recent studythat said kids are the most
depressed and isolated they'vebeen ever.
(33:24):
Like 68% of kids youth in highschool are dealing with
depression and that number likedoubled in the last.
I don't know the exact, I thinkit was like 10 or 15 years or
something like.
That's horrifying.
Why are so many kids depressed?
Speaker 1 (33:45):
I know I was reading that too.
There's that book, the AnxiousGeneration.
Yeah, he wrote a book on it.
I haven't read it yet, honestly, because I'm too afraid.
Yep, because that adds to thepressure of parenting.
Because I don't know what theright answer is.
I didn't give Connor Fortnite.
Quite frankly, like if I'mbeing completely honest here,
(34:07):
guys, I didn't know what thehell Fortnite was.
I just thought it was like thedevil, because everybody talks
about it, like if you let yourchild play, whatever, they're
going to be the worst kids inlife, right.
So I was like no, you can neverplay that.
I don't want you playing that.
You're too little, you're toolittle.
But then he was going tofriend's house, playing it at
friend's houses, yeah.
(34:27):
So I'm like okay, um, so whatdo we do?
Anyways, I figured out whatfortnight was.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
It's really not all that terrible but the skins and
the I don't even know.
Every every month a newsomething or other comes out.
I don't know what it's called,but my, like my husband's,
convinced that V bucks is likeliterally setting them up for
like issues with moneymanagement and like it's crazy
(34:56):
because they're so expensive.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Connor got like I don't know $60 in V bucks for
his birthday and I was like 60is a lot of money he was.
He blew through it in likethree minutes.
Oh it's crazy.
Yeah, no.
So I agree with dave.
We need dave on the podcast.
Oh my god, we do need dave onthe podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
He has time these days.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, we're gonna bring him on.
We need dave, the finance guy,talking about the vbucks oh my
god.
But the man, yeah, the man cando it all.
But yeah, I know I don'tdisagree with you.
It's just like there's thisintense pressure of like what do
I do?
How do I do it?
(35:38):
Is this the right thing to do?
And then, like the phone, thephone was a huge one, like, yeah
, we connor just recently, likevery recently, so he's always
had, like he's very attached tome, yeah, and his little friend
lives like half a block away,like I can almost see their
house from my house yeah and hewanted to go over there and his
(36:04):
mom has always said like bringhim over and drop him off or
whatever, but he never wants tobe without me, yeah.
So quite recently he wants to gowalk to their house and then
the park is like right besidetheir house, which is like two
minutes from my house, and myhusband was like well, here's
our opportunity, like he'strustworthy, but like you want
(36:25):
him to go, he's asking to go.
Yeah, but then I was like thisis why people get their kids
phones.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah, so we used to go to the park by ourselves all
the time all the time.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
When I was seven, I went to the park all the time by
myself, all the time so have we?
Speaker 2 (36:41):
have, as parents, been made to believe that the
world is like it's a moredangerous place that we're
raising kids in?
Or are we just more anxiousbecause we're used to having
like instant response and accessto everybody?
Like is it our problem or is itsomething that they want?
And I think it's us?
(37:02):
But I don't trust my kids goingto the park without being able
to access them.
Like I constantly see onFacebook pages, people are
putting air tags on their kidsand like I just don't.
Is it us?
Like are we doing that?
What?
Where is this coming from?
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I don't think.
I think it's like a little bitof both.
Yes, I think we're part of theproblem, but also the world that
we live in is very differentfrom the world that we grew up
in.
So let me tell you a hack.
Chris and I found a hack, butit's not a cheap hack, but a
hack.
So we were sending him with awalkie talkie because it's close
enough to my house.
So that was great.
(37:38):
It worked out really, reallywell.
But then chris had said to melike this is only gonna, as he
gets bigger, he's gonna want togo further right or to this
kid's house over here that maybethe walkie-talkie doesn't reach
.
Apple makes kids watches, yes,and he can, so I'm like showing
(37:59):
you my watch, but he can phoneme from his watch if he needed
me, and it has a walkie talkiein it.
Oh, okay.
So, he can phone, he can send atext.
I think it was like 10 bucks amonth to have on my plan extra
and it's only to the parents,only to the parents, okay, and
there's no social media.
So Connor could technicallyhave a phone, yeah, to be able
(38:23):
to reach me, but no social mediaand without an actual phone
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
We're an Android family.
Whatever, I'm sure Android'scoming up with one.
We'll see if that works, butthat's, yeah, I'm starting to
like we're getting into thatsoon.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
I know it's all coming Right and it's like Annie
, when I tell you this startedlike so hard in the last month
and my son just turned eight.
I'm just like it's that.
My husband was like this likewe're here, we have arrived, so
we need to start havingconversations, like realistic
conversations, but we don't havea freaking clue.
(39:00):
We don't have a clue, Whereas,like when they were newborns, do
you let them put this in theirmouth?
No, because they'll choke anddie, Like that was.
You know, like it felt more yesand no.
Like not everything, but thisfeels like I don't actually know
what the right answer is, and Idon't feel like it is the right
answer every day, I know, andit's hard, like in our situation
(39:23):
.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
our boys are just under 17 months apart, so, like
for their entire lives, one getsthe other, one gets, like
that's just how it's been right.
They are tied to the hip and Idon't see how, when my son is
like in grade eight, how hissix-year-old or his brother who
(39:43):
happened to slip into like 2018by a few days, is two school
years apart, isn't going tounderstand why he's not having
the same access, because they doeverything together, so that's
something.
That's hard because then yousee these younger kids and it's
funny anytime my son becomesfriends with somebody at school
(40:03):
and he tells me about them,depending on their range of
freedom and the way that theythe things that they talk about.
I'm like, do they have olderbrothers or sisters and usually
they do because the last one isjust like 100%, yeah, well when
they're making a real thing butwhen they're making friends with
my, it's like you're stilltrying to keep them firmly
(40:27):
planted.
When there's, like the oldersibling of the friend who's
maybe in like high school orgrade eight kind of trickling in
, and that's hard too.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
It is hard.
When he was a lot younger Inoticed quite a bit of his
friends had way more freedomthan he did, or the Fortnite
thing was a big one.
But then he was like, oh, theirbrother, their sister.
And then, as I kind of got toknow everybody, I was like, oh,
they all have older siblings, sothat's a thing, it's just so if
(41:05):
anybody's listening and youguys are thinking like, will it
get easier, well, let's notscare I don't think I will say I
think I'm so much busier than Iwas, but I think I I'm equally
as tired, but I've adjusted tobeing tired all the time you
(41:25):
know what I mean like I thinkyou just like this.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
is it Like this?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
is it?
This is just what we're doingfor the next little bit.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
So you get less resentful of everything.
I find I get more resentful oflike the structures in our
society now than I do of like myfamily, but it's a different
like.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
it's different, yeah it is different, and I used to
hate when people say it doesn'tget easier, it's just different.
Yeah, but it is that's.
That's a fact.
Yeah, it's a fact.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
It's easier in some aspects, more difficult in some
yeah, just as equally exhausting, still feeling like I don't
know what the hell I'm doing noone does and we are apparently
we're in the sweet spot with theage that our kids are and I
keep telling my husband we haveto like heal from the trauma of,
like the baby years andeverything that did to our
(42:21):
marriage and like fix it.
And like fix our marriage andbe real close before the teen
years.
Just like explode everythingback up again and like fix it.
And like fix our marriage andbe real close before the teen
years.
Just like explode everythingback up again and like, by the
way, if you mute me and create areel out of that, that'll just
look ridiculous of the way thatI was just like throwing myself
around.
I'm very, I'm Italian, I'm verydramatic.
There's lots of we just might.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Okay, we just might, we just might, just for fun,
take the idea and run with it.
Look at annie, she's lost hermind actually anyways.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
But yeah, like I, I'm always like, oh my god, like,
okay, we you know the baby yearswere hard on on the marriage
and then like this is a sweetspot.
And then we're gonna get intoaging parents and teenagers and
like when do we get to like loveeach other without stress?
Speaker 1 (43:09):
and I think that's why sex is so nice, because it's
it's not your space, you're,you're, you're in a different
world and like yeah, yeah well,and I also Like I know that's
another separate podcast episode, but I do feel as though, very
(43:30):
similarly like my husband and Ihave probably had the hardest
year we've ever had this year Ican agree.
But, like, every time we talkabout stuff like truly like we
have kids around the same age,so we have kids the exact same
age as actually six and eight,but like, so, if you think about
(43:51):
it, we.
I always pin picture like mydaughter, because that's really
where I struggled the most.
2018 hot mess for me.
He had to pick up all of thosepieces.
Yeah, 2019 was the same.
2020 was was the pandemic.
2021 was the pandemic.
2022, even part of that yearwas.
(44:11):
So that was all survival.
And now we're all like kind ofgetting back to our lives.
But then looking at each other,like who are you?
We never spend time togetherbecause we have been doing
nothing but surviving.
And now that we're not, it'slike, oh my God, is everything
going to be OK?
And like yeah, it will be, but Ialso think that's very normal
(44:35):
and people don't talk about itbecause you know we're perfect
and love each other all the time.
No, I don't.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, exactly, and I have a friend her youngest just
went off to high school andshe's like you think that's when
you and your husband get tolike have all this fun together
again.
And she's like we are feelingvery distant, we have to figure
out like how we work againwithout worrying about balancing
schedules and all the kidsstuff, like it's just us.
(45:05):
And so I think yourrelationship is always going
through different transitionsand you're always trying to find
your way back to each other.
But I do think if you can goaway or go to dinner and still
laugh and have fun, like that'sthe hope that I hold on to.
And there's times, you know,when you're dealing with like a
(45:27):
lot, lot and you try to go todinner and you're like I'm just
not into it.
But if most of the time you'regoing out and you guys are just
like sticking your fingers upeach other's noses and like
having a good time.
There's some hope there that Ithink you'll be OK.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more and I don't know,
maybe that's the point of thisrelationship agree more and I
don't know, maybe that's thepoint of this relationship.
Like, actually I watched thisTikTok the other night and it
was like it was probably themost profound TikTok I've ever
watched, but the it was like anolder lady and she was like you
need to marry the person thatwill I forget how she said it
but you like you need to marrythe person that will hold your
(46:03):
hand when you watch your parentstake their last breath.
And I just remember like I knowit's making me emotional, but
she was like the point is likeyou don't marry someone for
their looks or their money orthis or that, because that like
ebbs and flows, like your wholerelationship, like you have to
think about the big, big piecesof your life.
(46:24):
And I think kind of what you'resaying is true and like maybe
we need to let go of the idea ofwhat a relationship is supposed
to look like.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
It's it's it's hard.
I think maybe that's the phasewe're in now is not just when we
were younger and had babies wewere comparing ourselves to
other moms.
I think now we're comparingourselves to other families and
marriages and relationships andI know my husband and I have
gone through a really reallyhard year this year too and I
(46:55):
look at some couples and like Ialmost find the village is more
important now, um, because it'sit's almost easier to justify
going and spending that timetogether when your kids are
older.
But like I find so many ways toresent the fact that like we
(47:15):
don't have the the marriage thatother people have, like it's.
But I think everybody has theirhard moments.
You can't everybody does.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
It's just like it was when, when we were postpartum
and those moms that were postingthose beautiful curated photos
were just as unhappy as you are,and maybe not struggling with
mental illness, but stillstruggling, because everybody
struggles in that stage and Ithink of that too, like when I
see things and I'm like, well,how come we're not like that, or
(47:46):
how come I'm not like that, orwhatever.
I also try and remember likethey have bad times too.
They captured this onebeautiful moment, but what was
behind that moment?
How many takes did it take toget that moment?
How many date nights did theycancel to get that moment?
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Yeah, really the stage of life that we're in is
there's a lot of people that Iknow who are going through crazy
things in their marriages andnobody would know by looking at
them, right.
So I think you just like, aslike you were as a new mom like
it's hard not to look out butlook in and it's funny Dave and
(48:27):
I were watching this show onetime and it was the psychologist
or something and they're likewhat's the one piece of advice
that you can give to people whoare like struggling with um, you
know the comparison game andjust all and feeling
disappointed about stuff.
And they said lower yourexpectations.
And Dave and I howled and wewere like what?
But really like lower yourexpectations.
(48:50):
There's, there's only so muchthat is realistic, right, and
obviously have a certain amountof expectations.
But like let's account for justlike everything that is going
on in our world and adjust ourexpectations to that, and I
think there's better chance forhappiness in that.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
I could not agree more.
Well, I'm going to wrap us upbecause, like the next thing you
know, we're going to be talkingabout like God knows what.
But I just like appreciate youso much because this is this has
been a really hard year for meand when you post things and
whatever, I'm just like I just Iget you, I see you, I hear you,
(49:33):
I just I love the realness andI love having other people on,
like you, that will just be realbecause, although, yes, this is
the sweet spot, we are in agreat space.
I love spending time with mykids they are freaking awesome
little humans I am still just asexhausted and you know there's
(49:53):
other things at play now andlife is very bumpy and I'm
grateful for people like youthat want to talk about, like
when we get to sit in the in theditches.
You know, when we're on thebumps and then you kind of get
stuck in the ditch at the bottomthere, yeah, and it's kicking
you in the in the ditches youknow when we're on the bumps and
then you kind of get stuck inthe ditch at the bottom there.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Yeah, and it's kicking you in the face.
Yep, I'm grateful for you too,and I think it's because I don't
know about you, but in my headI'm still 19.
Like it doesn't make sense tome that this is my life, like I
look in the mirror and I'm like,ooh, no, I'm older than I feel,
um, but yeah, yeah, it's like areality check all the time.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
That like we are in charge somebody put us in charge
, and I don't know who did that,but I would really like them to
take my adulting capabilitiesaway, because I'm not sure this
is safe yeah, it's chaos.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
It's chaos, but it's a good chaos.
Everyone's going through iteveryone is.
So if you are relating, justremember that you're not alone,
never never, never, never, andif you find that, you can talk
about it, that's where you findyour people leave everybody,
please, annie, where can theyfollow?
Speaker 1 (50:57):
you find you plug your book again, please for the
love.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
It's a wonderful book , thank you um
annaleeslaottoncom is my websiteand um, I guess, on Instagram
at Annie Lawton underscore.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
Yeah, awesome, yeah Well, thank you so much and
thank you, guys for tuning inand we'll talk to you soon.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the honest
as a mother podcast.
Don't forget to subscribe, rateand review.
I'm really looking forward tohearing from you.
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode, the
first official episode of therelaunch of the Honest as a
Mother podcast.
This episode I have recordedbatch, recorded quite a few
episodes in the last month or soand this episode really stood
out to me and I feel like has alittle dash of everything for
(00:42):
you guys.
To really kick this off, I haveAnnie Lawton back on the
podcast with me this week.
You may remember, annie was aprevious guest, probably a year
or so now, maybe even two yearsoh gosh, probably two years ago
where she came on the podcastand talked a lot about her
(01:04):
incredible book Welcome to theJungle, which you may or may not
have read already.
So Annie is a local author andher book is full of stories that
she has written throughout herlife and kind of they all
pertain to her becoming a motherand it is funny, very relatable
(01:25):
, just a really wonderful book.
So if you haven't checked itout, please, for the love of god
, go get a copy.
Because number one, supportinga local author, is wonderful,
but number two, truly, annie'swriting is so incredible and
she's so relatable and so funny,so she's actually one of the
first people.
Annie.
I'm not trying to get like toomushy here, but truly she is one
(01:50):
of the first people.
When I met her, she took myfeelings out of my head and put
them on paper inside her bookand when I met her, just her
kind of explaining herexperience in motherhood, her
experience with mental illness,overall.
She spoke so deeply to mebecause what she was
(02:10):
experiencing was so similar towhat I was experiencing, but I
was never able to put it intowords until I met Annie, so I
knew I needed to have her backon the podcast.
So we're kind of diving allover the place.
But we are talking about ourstage of parenting now and why
(02:33):
are we still struggling?
And so I laugh because I feellike I get this question a lot
of like.
Is being a mom easier now thatyour kids are older?
And I used to fucking hate,like hated, when people would
tell me it doesn't get easier,it just gets different.
Well, guys, it doesn't geteasier, it just gets different.
(02:53):
Here I am saying those wordsthat I've hated for so long, but
they're true, and so I don'tfeel like parenting is any
easier now, it's just very, verydifferent.
My hard now looks verydifferent from my hard five
years ago.
So Annie and I are diving intothat.
We talk a lot about what mentalillness and postpartum
(03:15):
depression has taught us and wereally get quite vulnerable here
, especially Annie.
She gets really vulnerableabout her grief and her guilt
following postpartum depression.
We're talking about how we feellike we were robbed right, and
so many of us experienced that,where we're like I wish I could
(03:36):
go back and now, being a parentof a six and an eight-year.
Annie has children similar inage.
She has a third child who isyounger, but we are both
experiencing this grief kind ofcome up in different ways, and
so I think an interestingconversation about this is
(03:57):
really like we think we'vegotten through the postpartum,
but the reality is it's stillshowing up six, eight years
later, and so we're kind oftalking a lot about that.
We're talking about the bigfeelings in our household.
Annie and I both also relatefrom a neurodivergent point of
(04:19):
view, where ourselves, ourchildren, we suspect or we know
and it's just incrediblychallenging.
I feel like my house is full ofpeople with extremely big
feelings and I think everyperson in my house is a highly
sensitive person, and some daysit's just so much, and so Annie
(04:40):
is sharing with me how her houseis very, very similar.
We're also talking about whatit's really like to raise older
kids in this world of socialmedia and phones and video games
and online video games andtalking with their friends
online and kids Facebookmessenger.
And you know, we both have achild who is eight, and so this
(05:02):
is like real shit.
That's coming at us really fastand it feels like we don't know
if we're making the rightdecision or not.
And then we also are talkingabout the reality of what mental
health struggles and being insurvival mode can do to your
marriage, and I love this partof the conversation because I do
(05:23):
feel like this part of theconversation is not spoken
enough about.
I feel like it's very much likethe postpartum period, I feel
like.
But now a lot of people aretalking about how hard the
postpartum period is, but Idon't feel like a lot of people
are talking about what thatpostpartum period does to your
(05:44):
marriage and how moving forward,being in survival mode for so
many years, does to yourmarriage.
I don't think people aretalking enough about the
realities of what it's like tobe married with little kids and
really choose each other andchoose every single day your
(06:04):
marriage, your relationship andall of those challenges that
come in between.
And Annie and I are talkingabout it.
Like I said, this episode kindof jumps all over the place, but
it is the realest episode Ihave ever done and I'm so
grateful, annie, that you cameback on the podcast and I just I
love you, I love your stories,I love your realness, like.
(06:27):
Thank you so much for coming on.
And so, without further ado,welcome back Annie Lawton to the
Honest as a Mother podcast.
Hi, annie, I'm so excited tohave you back on the podcast.
Welcome, welcome back, thankyou.
Thank you, I'm so glad you'rehere.
(06:47):
You're just like someone who,you're just my people, you know.
And even even today, when youwere like I need like the seven
minutes I need to shower, likeevery time you do something like
this, it's just so relatable, Iget it, I feel seen and heard,
(07:07):
and so I appreciate when you dopost.
Also, I love the fact that youare also like me and you make me
feel better because I don'tpost all the time.
Yeah, like I just don't havethe capacity to do it, yeah.
And then I'm like but I want todo all of these things, but
then like posting and reels andeverything is like on the very
bottom of my list.
(07:29):
So I appreciate that you alsodo that, because you make me
feel better, like I don't haveto do it.
Do you ever feel like that?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, I mean it's funny because I work as a
strategic marketing consultant.
I know what I have to be doingin order to like hang out with
the algorithm and, you know, bepopular there.
I don't want like I would loveif people stumbled upon me and
stuck around, but like I don'thave the time or energy or like
(07:57):
I just I can't keep up with it.
Yeah, and I do it for myclients all day and like it.
Just I want it to be authenticand it's.
It's funny, Like I'm alreadyjumping into things.
I'm sorry but I love it.
I uh I'm going through this likehuge transition where my, my
baby, my last baby, just wentoff to JK this week and I'm
(08:18):
starting to think, okay, I canreally go from freelancing, as
you know copywriter, marketingconsultant, whatever to like
running this as more of abusiness, like working more
full-time hours.
So I hired a business coach tokind of help me figure out what
that was going to look like andone of their things was is like
that you go to my Instagram pageand there's bunnies and there
(08:41):
are dogs and there are kids andthere's work stuff and there is
like me holding snakes and justlike all, and she's like what do
you do?
And I was like but this is whoI am right, so I don't know.
I think you just have to showup authentic and the people will
come that's what I always feellike too.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
I'm always always like I need to do this, I need
to do that, but then thatdoesn't feel like me.
So I think that's why we feelthat pull to like not Exactly,
exactly.
So I'm really excited that youtouched on like something I
wanted to talk to you about,because I feel like and I don't
know about you, but I alwaysfeel like I am being like
(09:24):
pigeonholed in this, likepostpartum Amanda, who struggled
so bad with her mental health,and I always get like stuck in
this like era.
But we're in this new era ofparenting, still struggling with
mental health at times likethat.
That part has not changed.
(09:45):
Just we've lost the postpartumarea, can we still?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
well, actually fact.
I heard that postpartumactually is up until your child
is seven years old, sotechnically my youngest is four.
I have three years left to youknow.
Claim this postpartum stuff,but in all honesty, postpartum
depression definitelyhighlighted the fact that I was
(10:10):
neglecting my other mentalhealth issues for a long time.
So there's.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
that Do you ever feel like and this is a side note
but I've had this kind of likeaha feeling over the last couple
of years where I don't feellike aha feeling over the last
couple of years, where I don'tfeel like I used to say I felt
like I became a mom and I becameso lost, and then now kind of
working because I feel the sameas you.
Like these things were therebefore postpartum, just kind of
(10:37):
magnified them, but I actuallyfeel like my children saved me,
even though I became mentallyill and struggled immensely.
I feel like if I didn't havethat, I would not be this person
I am now yeah, so, oh god,shameless plug.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I hate to do.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
That's what my book is actually yes, you're right,
I've read your book.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yes, fantastic thank you and I.
A big thing there is that, youknow, as young girls and as
young women, we are built up tonot like, we're, not we're.
We're always told we're not goodenough, right, like, and we
want to be more popular and wewant to pursue certain careers,
because maybe that's what willmake our families happy.
(11:20):
And like so, as we go throughlife, as we're taking out a
piece of us and then we shove apiece of somebody into that
space and um, then all whilebeing told, by the way, that,
like, becoming a mom is theultimate goal like so we're
taking pieces out, workingtowards becoming a mom, and then
we become a mom and we're piss,a piss, we're a piss of swiss
(11:45):
cheese, we are a piece of swisscheese, and what I think is that
you bring these sweet littlebabies into the world and they
are so pure and so innocent andso authentic in their own way,
and you don't want them tochange, you want them to just be
them.
I'm going to start gettingemotional here.
And it just shines a slightthrough all of your holes and
(12:09):
you're like, oh crap, like I'm,I've given up so many pieces of
who I am to try and fitsociety's expectations of me.
And now I have to build myselfback together while, like with
mastitis and a ripped vajayjay,like it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
It really doesn't.
And like when you wrote aboutthat in your book I'm so
grateful that you did, because Ijust feel like there's so many
women who don't see it that wayand as soon as I started to see
it that way, and as soon as Istarted to see it that way, and
then I just feel like cyclebreaking and everything else is
kind of wrapped up in there.
But do you feel, I'm curious,do you feel like this is harder?
(12:55):
Like I feel like now that I'veopened my eyes or woken up, or
whatever the frick we want tocall it, I feel like everybody
looks at me now like I have fiveheads.
Like you know, I left my jobbecause I was super unhappy, but
I feel like my kids started allof this, like they started to
(13:19):
let me see who I really am andwhat do I really want, and ask
the questions of like whodecided I wanted to go into this
career?
Oh, that wasn't me.
Yeah, that was like societytold me I would have a great
life because I'd have benefitsand a pension and good pay, but
I never see my children, who Iwant to be with.
(13:39):
And like, did you?
Are you finding that too?
Like I'm finding a lot of likesocial norms are kind of like
looking at me like well, whatthe fuck are you doing?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, I mean yes and no.
I think, on one hand, thepandemic opened up this whole
world of flying by the seat ofyour pants a little bit and
doing what feels right for youand your family.
On the other side, I thinkthere's still a bit of a
generational gap when it comesto like what stability looks
(14:10):
like from a financialperspective and you know, having
the house and having the joband having the pension and the
savings and all of that stuff.
But for me it's like you knowwhat my house and my job and
none of that matters if my kidsare never going to be able to
afford to go throughpost-secondary school and be
(14:32):
able to purchase a house in thelong run not make them feel like
they need to fulfill thisexpectation and be more flexible
with the options that they havedown the road.
So I think our generation isgetting a little bit more
(14:55):
flexible in what that looks like, but I think there's still this
idea that like there needs tobe a bit more stability and less
um, what does dave, my husband,what does he say?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
that I am spontaneity but the spontaneity is so I
don't know it's better and likeI just feel like me making less
money but being with my children, like I get to go pick my kids
up every day from school.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
And we go to the park after school and then I come
home and we have dinner together, like I get to take them to
school every day and without thewhole, like I'm sure your kids
have the same thing.
Like well, you just said youhad one that just started
kindergarten.
But like one of my childrenreally struggles to go to school
and last year it was like okay,but I need you to like shut up,
(15:47):
go to school.
Because, like I really got togo, I got to be at my shift, I
got to be at my desk, I got tobe there on time, no-transcript
doing anything for him.
It was more just like please,for the love of god, please stop
crying, because I need you togo to school oh, yeah, yeah, and
I think that, gosh, there's somany things to say here.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
I think on one hand, we need to dig into like the
privilege of being able toreduce hours and be there for
our kids there's there's a mixof privilege and then there's
like necessity.
Yeah, I actually went back tocorporate.
I tried to go back to corporatelast year.
Most people in my in my circledon't know that Um and I ended
(16:28):
up.
I was, I was recruited.
I was completely transparentwith the fact that I have a
child who has school resistance.
He has a very difficult timegoing to school.
He has run away from the schoolLike it takes an hour to
transition and in the morning.
So I was very clear that Ifreelanced to support that being
(16:49):
able to be there.
They still hired me and withintwo months I was fired for being
late twice to team meetings andthat followed with so much
resentment towards my husband.
Um, it's not even his fault, butI was like you make more money
than I do, so your job is thepriority and I have to keep like
(17:14):
giving up bits of my wants anddesires because we have a child
that that needs us to be thereand the world.
It just isn't accommodating meand there's arguments to be made
that the world doesn't have toaccommodate me, and that's fine.
But then I'm put in a positionwhere I have to create a world
that accommodates me for myself,and I think that's what you and
(17:36):
I are doing when it comes tomaking accommodations for our
mental health.
Like do we want to be workingfull-time?
Like there, there's a goodchance.
If things were easier and thecircumstances were different,
maybe we would want to workfull-time, can we?
It's not realistic.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I think that's something too like.
That has become more apparentas my children are getting older
, because I think there's alsothis thought of like I've had so
many parents ask me is iteasier?
And I would say actually no, Ithink it's.
So I would say two things.
I feel like the physicaldemands of my children are much
(18:17):
less.
I sleep a lot more than I usedto.
Almost every night someonedoesn't bug me, that's not true.
Once a week, twice a week,somebody bugs me in the night.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
I'm so happy for you.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Where's the wood I need the fucking wood Give me
the wood.
Yeah, but like so.
So there's that.
Um, I don't need to feedanybody.
I still can have to cook forthem, but I can give them a
plate.
They go to the bathroom ontheir own.
I can ask them to get dressedand brush their teeth.
Do they do that?
Yeah, sense, yes, but there issomething to be said about that.
(19:01):
Bigger kids, bigger problems,like when we've got friendship
problems and we've got schoolresistance and we have anxiety,
and you know, one of my childrenhas had panic attacks like it's
.
It's like all of a sudden,they're real human beings does
that make sense?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
yeah, and I have a question for you because I feel
like you might be one of the fewpeople I know that can maybe
understand this.
I've actually been going totherapy for the last two years
like intensive therapy to dealwith PTSD, the guilt and all of
that stuff from like dealingwith the postpartum depression
(19:42):
in the early days.
I look back at pictures and Isee that I was there for them
and I was showing up, but theexperience I had I selfishly and
like I'm, I'm carrying so muchgrief with me and so much guilt
and I look at my kids and I lookat where they struggle and I
blame myself and I look at howawesome they are and how
(20:07):
freaking sweet their little toeswere back in the day and I want
to go back.
So bad, like so bad, and Inever could have imagined
wanting to go back to that placewhen I was in it.
But my husband he had avasectomy after our daughter was
born four years ago.
I've literally and this feelsso selfish because I am so
blessed to have my threechildren I am grieving so hard.
(20:30):
I want a fourth baby.
So bad, not actually, notactually.
But I've been dealing with somuch grief and having to go
through so much therapy tonavigate all of the messy
feelings that have come withparenting, after that like being
a new mom.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
After that experience Totally, I completely resonate
and I have experienced the samething and I think in the last
year since I've kind of reallyrealized a lot of things about
myself and same I have been intherapy for quite some time now
and she's been really supportiveto this, but like I feel like
(21:08):
this whole year all I'veexperienced is grief, like I'm
grieving that person that wentthrough postpartum and I do
experience a lot more now thatall of those things have come up
of the yeah, the guilt.
And the other night I lost mymind on Scarlett.
Honestly, the week beforeschool she was such a dick.
(21:28):
Also, we need to normalize thefact that your kids are dicks,
it's fine, they just, they justare sometimes and like she was
just anxious about school, butyou know, I'm doing everything
in my power and nothing wasworking and she was just getting
mean and so I lost my cool andthat whole night.
I'm a horrible mother.
(21:49):
I'm a terrible mother and it'slike those things come back.
And so I totally get whatyou're saying, because I feel
like there is like a PTSDcomponent where you're like, oh
my God, I've totally screwedthis up and oh my God, I
remember when she was a baby andso she was the one I struggled
with and I carry a lot of guiltwith that too.
Sometimes, when we don'tconnect right away, I'm like, oh
my God, is this because Ididn't love her as much at the
(22:10):
beginning, as much as I lovedConnor?
Like, have I totally fucked allof this up?
Yeah, and I know that I haven't.
I know, do you understand whenI feel like?
I know that I logically I havenot, but I feel like emotionally
and like deep within mysubconscious no, I don't
actually know that.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah, yeah, yep, yep.
No, because I think we arealways going to doubt ourselves
always, always always, and weknow what's realistic and we
know what we would tell otherpeople in our shoes.
But that doesn't change thatthere's this like heavy
emotional burden that you carrybecause those are your babies,
you know.
And one thing I will say I cameacross this post on Reddit the
(22:50):
other day and it was like olderadults of you know, kids who
have good relationships withyour parents.
Why is that?
And literally all of the topcomments were my parents are
human, my parents made mistakes.
My parents owned up andapologized when they had to
apologize and had conversationswith us and like, made it just
(23:13):
transparent and didn't like so Ireally like I struggle because
I don't want my kids to dealwith or know about adult
problems.
But, on, on the other hand,they've seen me cry, they've
seen me go through loss of lovedones and deal with grief and
all of that stuff, and I try totalk about it rather than just
(23:33):
like cry about it by myself inmy room at night, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
I think it's not like it's healthy for them to know
that we have feelings.
And I did the same thing.
Like I apologized to Scarlettand when I was apologizing I
started to cry and she was likewhy are you crying?
And I was just like I just youknow mommy feels bad that she
yelled at you, but like I'm hereto tell you that I'm sorry and
(23:57):
to you know next time.
You know the whole thing, but Ithink it's good because they
can see that like okay, my mom'sa human being and she has real
feelings.
And my kids are no stranger tofeelings.
And I think sometimes I do youever feel like your kids?
Or like maybe not you, but somepeople feel like their kids are
a problem because they have somany feelings, and I definitely
(24:19):
used to think that was a problembefore.
That I understood, but now that, like I see when my kids cry or
have a meltdown or whatever,what they're showing me is
they're like comfortable to dothis in front of me and they'll
talk to me about what's actuallygoing on, as opposed to just
crying and being a jerk and thennot telling me.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Oh for sure, and I think you and I can both agree
the number of times people sayyour kids feel safe with you and
you're like oh good, like great, they feel safe to like throw
it down, call me names, you know, do all that stuff, awesome.
But really I know lots ofpeople that would never have the
(24:57):
types of reactions and feelingsthat my kids do with me, with
their own parents, and as hardas it is on us, there is some
safety there for them and I hopethat translates into their teen
years, because I can't evenbegin to tell you how scared I
am for when they becometeenagers if they still have the
same attitude and personalitiesthat they have now.
(25:17):
There's one kid in particularthat, like I, am in trouble.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I think about it on the regular.
Oh yeah, I am.
I actually was in thepediatrician's office, so
Scarlett is sick right now andshe we had to get she has
pneumonia.
She's totally fine,everything's right.
But like mom gut, my mom gutwas like something is different
(25:44):
or I need to call the doctor.
My husband thought I was apsychopath they always do they
never trust us, no, but thedoctor said to me oh no, when a
mom comes in here and says Ihave a feeling, I'm like, okay,
send them for whatever test themom wants yeah, yeah, amazing
but so when I was in there shewas like flipping her hair back
(26:05):
and like doing her thing, likeshe's like full of sass, and he
just said to me good luck, oh,like 10 years.
I said you can't say that to me,you're a doctor you can't say
that to me, and he was like no,I can and I'm just telling you
right now good luck, she's gonnahave boys lined up out the door
.
The attitude is already thereand it totally is.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
However, I am kind of proud of the attitude because I
have a daughter that you cannotfuck with yeah, yeah, honestly,
it's, it's, she's, she's strongand she knows it and she's like
letting that radiate throughher and that's awesome.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I love it because, as the people pleaser that I am
that.
I am like in therapy for yearsand years and years because of
yep, I love it.
I love it like she's gonna takeover the goddamn world and I'm
not gonna be any.
I'm gonna be so proud.
Yeah, no.
Well, my daughter told you tofuck off.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Well, you probably deserved it at some point yeah,
I think I wrote about this onetime.
My son went to school.
He had a supply teacher.
He was, he has an IEP.
He was, you know, struggling tosit and was fidgeting and
talking and all this stuff andthe supply teacher goes to him.
What would your mom think if sheknew that you were like, acting
(27:18):
out this way?
And I will say my son has likethe biggest heart, like he.
I know a lot of parents, well,I don't know.
I know when my parent, when mykids are being little shits,
yeah, but I also know whenthey're trying really hard and
in that moment I know he did notdeserve that type of feedback
and he turned to the teacher andhe goes.
(27:41):
I know my mommy would be reallyproud of me because I tried and
I like the fact that that stuckwith him.
Like you never know what'sgonna stick.
And then I even find too, whenyou're having a hard time, the
way your kids react to you issuch a reflection of the type of
(28:01):
love that you give them.
And in some of my hardestmoments it's my kids that remind
me that I'm actually doing agood job because of the way that
they're like you're no mommy,you're great, I love you.
Like it's just yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, my daughter will generally interrupt me,
especially if she, like she doeslike the bedtime, like can I
tell you one more thing?
Can I have a drink?
Can I have another story?
Can I have a whatever?
Whatever, it is right.
And so, like the fourth orfifth time, like my feet like
are getting heavier, and I guessshe can tell because she'll go
(28:40):
okay, mom, can I tell yousomething?
First, Do you need to rainbowbreathe?
Oh my gosh, what's the rainbowbreath?
Okay, you go beautiful yep.
Or five finger breathe, mom, doyou need, do you need to mean
to count the five fingerbreathing for you?
And then I kind of want to hither a little bit, yeah, no, when
(29:03):
they pull that like reversepsychology stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
The other day one of my husband was having a tough go
and one of my kids goes Daddy'sjust a flower that hasn't
blossomed yet, and I was likewhat does that even mean?
But also he kind of is and Itell them all the time I'm like
look like mommy and daddy, whilewe may be in our mid thirties,
(29:27):
we are still growing up andlearning every single day, just
like you are.
And like, just like today is anew day for you, today's a new
day for us, and we might comeacross stuff that like we
haven't learned before and we'regoing to learn it together, and
we might not be perfect at itthe first time, but like we
haven't learned before and we'regoing to learn it together, and
we might not be perfect at itthe first time, but like this is
just the way that it goes.
I'll be learning forever andhopefully by the end of my life.
(29:48):
I've made a good impression,but like we won't know until we
get there.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
I know, and I think that's like, I was having this
conversation yesterday at thepark with one of the moms and I
think that what you're saying islike we just the not knowing
part is the hardest part inparenting, right, like she was
kind of concerned about likesome personality traits of her
child now that, like ouryoungest are in grade one and
(30:17):
making friends and keepingfriends and are they going to
pick the right friends.
And because that right and Iwas like we have officially lost
all control, like and I thinkthat's where I would argue that
now is actually harder than thenewborn.
Even though I hated the newborn, even though I hate not
(30:39):
sleeping, all of that wasincredibly hard.
I'm not downplaying that, Ikind of want to go back to it oh
, 100% like.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
My oldest is in grade three this year, but last year
in grade two, one of the boysthat he liked to hang around
with had an iPhone and kept intrying to add me to snapchat and
kept asking my kid to get onsnapchat.
And I was like bud, like you'renot getting snapchat and it's
(31:06):
so hard to lay down the law.
And my other one, my middle,who's in grade one, is playing
fortnite.
And all of a sudden I went downthe other day and I was like
who are these people that you'replaying with?
And he's like they're myfriends.
And I was like from where?
Well, mommy, from the internet,they're my friends from the
with.
And he's like they're myfriends.
And I was like from where?
Well, mommy, from the internet,they're my friends from the
internet.
And I was like, oh, my goodnessgracious, because I know, when
(31:31):
I was in grade six, seven, eight, I was ASS ASLing.
What did we do?
Age sex location.
Yeah, age sex location.
I was playing Pictionary on inthose AOL instant messaging chat
rooms playing with goodnessknows who, but it's so much
scarier now.
So I had to like go through hislist and I was like who is this
, who is this and I feel likethey're already outsmarting me
(31:54):
at six and eight, like I can'teven keep on top of it I don
don't disagree with you.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I have a six and an eight year old too, and my eight
year old, specifically he islike the same plays Fortnite.
We there is a uh, I'll find out, there is a way that you can do
it.
So Connor can only playFortnite with people that he
knows, and my husband has it.
So you can shut off everything,so Connor can't hear anybody
else except for whoever he'splaying with.
(32:22):
Okay, okay, so like him and hislittle friends do facebook
messenger anyway, like they'llcall face.
Yes, they facetime each otheror whatever on kids messenger.
But even that that kills me,like my, because it's connected
to my phone.
My phone doesn't stop fuckingringing after three o'clock and
I'm just like when did yourfriends become so important?
Speaker 2 (32:42):
yeah, I I got.
I got a screenshot from afriend of mine the other day of
pictures that like I guess myfour-year-old and my
eight-year-old had been sendingthem, wearing like putting on
all the filters of, like themwith glasses and floating
through space and like justbombarded everybody on their
list.
And my friend was like I justsaw this and I'm dying and I was
(33:03):
like, oh my god, like it's.
It scares me because that's theworld we're raising kids in and
I want them to be safe and Iwant them to have access to
their friends.
But then I read a recent studythat said kids are the most
depressed and isolated they'vebeen ever.
(33:24):
Like 68% of kids youth in highschool are dealing with
depression and that number likedoubled in the last.
I don't know the exact, I thinkit was like 10 or 15 years or
something like.
That's horrifying.
Why are so many kids depressed?
Speaker 1 (33:45):
I know I was reading that too.
There's that book, the AnxiousGeneration.
Yeah, he wrote a book on it.
I haven't read it yet, honestly, because I'm too afraid.
Yep, because that adds to thepressure of parenting.
Because I don't know what theright answer is.
I didn't give Connor Fortnite.
Quite frankly, like if I'mbeing completely honest here,
(34:07):
guys, I didn't know what thehell Fortnite was.
I just thought it was like thedevil, because everybody talks
about it, like if you let yourchild play, whatever, they're
going to be the worst kids inlife, right.
So I was like no, you can neverplay that.
I don't want you playing that.
You're too little, you're toolittle.
But then he was going tofriend's house, playing it at
friend's houses, yeah.
(34:27):
So I'm like okay, um, so whatdo we do?
Anyways, I figured out whatfortnight was.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
It's really not all that terrible but the skins and
the I don't even know.
Every every month a newsomething or other comes out.
I don't know what it's called,but my, like my husband's,
convinced that V bucks is likeliterally setting them up for
like issues with moneymanagement and like it's crazy
(34:56):
because they're so expensive.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Connor got like I don't know $60 in V bucks for
his birthday and I was like 60is a lot of money he was.
He blew through it in likethree minutes.
Oh it's crazy.
Yeah, no.
So I agree with dave.
We need dave on the podcast.
Oh my god, we do need dave onthe podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
He has time these days.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, we're gonna bring him on.
We need dave, the finance guy,talking about the vbucks oh my
god.
But the man, yeah, the man cando it all.
But yeah, I know I don'tdisagree with you.
It's just like there's thisintense pressure of like what do
I do?
How do I do it?
(35:38):
Is this the right thing to do?
And then, like the phone, thephone was a huge one, like, yeah
, we connor just recently, likevery recently, so he's always
had, like he's very attached tome, yeah, and his little friend
lives like half a block away,like I can almost see their
house from my house yeah and hewanted to go over there and his
(36:04):
mom has always said like bringhim over and drop him off or
whatever, but he never wants tobe without me, yeah.
So quite recently he wants to gowalk to their house and then
the park is like right besidetheir house, which is like two
minutes from my house, and myhusband was like well, here's
our opportunity, like he'strustworthy, but like you want
(36:25):
him to go, he's asking to go.
Yeah, but then I was like thisis why people get their kids
phones.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah, so we used to go to the park by ourselves all
the time all the time.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
When I was seven, I went to the park all the time by
myself, all the time so have we?
Speaker 2 (36:41):
have, as parents, been made to believe that the
world is like it's a moredangerous place that we're
raising kids in?
Or are we just more anxiousbecause we're used to having
like instant response and accessto everybody?
Like is it our problem or is itsomething that they want?
And I think it's us?
(37:02):
But I don't trust my kids goingto the park without being able
to access them.
Like I constantly see onFacebook pages, people are
putting air tags on their kidsand like I just don't.
Is it us?
Like are we doing that?
What?
Where is this coming from?
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I don't think.
I think it's like a little bitof both.
Yes, I think we're part of theproblem, but also the world that
we live in is very differentfrom the world that we grew up
in.
So let me tell you a hack.
Chris and I found a hack, butit's not a cheap hack, but a
hack.
So we were sending him with awalkie talkie because it's close
enough to my house.
So that was great.
(37:38):
It worked out really, reallywell.
But then chris had said to melike this is only gonna, as he
gets bigger, he's gonna want togo further right or to this
kid's house over here that maybethe walkie-talkie doesn't reach
.
Apple makes kids watches, yes,and he can, so I'm like showing
(37:59):
you my watch, but he can phoneme from his watch if he needed
me, and it has a walkie talkiein it.
Oh, okay.
So, he can phone, he can send atext.
I think it was like 10 bucks amonth to have on my plan extra
and it's only to the parents,only to the parents, okay, and
there's no social media.
So Connor could technicallyhave a phone, yeah, to be able
(38:23):
to reach me, but no social mediaand without an actual phone
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
We're an Android family.
Whatever, I'm sure Android'scoming up with one.
We'll see if that works, butthat's, yeah, I'm starting to
like we're getting into thatsoon.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
I know it's all coming Right and it's like Annie
, when I tell you this startedlike so hard in the last month
and my son just turned eight.
I'm just like it's that.
My husband was like this likewe're here, we have arrived, so
we need to start havingconversations, like realistic
conversations, but we don't havea freaking clue.
(39:00):
We don't have a clue, Whereas,like when they were newborns, do
you let them put this in theirmouth?
No, because they'll choke anddie, Like that was.
You know, like it felt more yesand no.
Like not everything, but thisfeels like I don't actually know
what the right answer is, and Idon't feel like it is the right
answer every day, I know, andit's hard, like in our situation
(39:23):
.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
our boys are just under 17 months apart, so, like
for their entire lives, one getsthe other, one gets, like
that's just how it's been right.
They are tied to the hip and Idon't see how, when my son is
like in grade eight, how hissix-year-old or his brother who
(39:43):
happened to slip into like 2018by a few days, is two school
years apart, isn't going tounderstand why he's not having
the same access, because they doeverything together, so that's
something.
That's hard because then yousee these younger kids and it's
funny anytime my son becomesfriends with somebody at school
(40:03):
and he tells me about them,depending on their range of
freedom and the way that theythe things that they talk about.
I'm like, do they have olderbrothers or sisters and usually
they do because the last one isjust like 100%, yeah, well when
they're making a real thing butwhen they're making friends with
my, it's like you're stilltrying to keep them firmly
(40:27):
planted.
When there's, like the oldersibling of the friend who's
maybe in like high school orgrade eight kind of trickling in
, and that's hard too.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
It is hard.
When he was a lot younger Inoticed quite a bit of his
friends had way more freedomthan he did, or the Fortnite
thing was a big one.
But then he was like, oh, theirbrother, their sister.
And then, as I kind of got toknow everybody, I was like, oh,
they all have older siblings, sothat's a thing, it's just so if
(41:05):
anybody's listening and youguys are thinking like, will it
get easier, well, let's notscare I don't think I will say I
think I'm so much busier than Iwas, but I think I I'm equally
as tired, but I've adjusted tobeing tired all the time you
(41:25):
know what I mean like I thinkyou just like this.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
is it Like this?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
is it?
This is just what we're doingfor the next little bit.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
So you get less resentful of everything.
I find I get more resentful oflike the structures in our
society now than I do of like myfamily, but it's a different
like.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
it's different, yeah it is different, and I used to
hate when people say it doesn'tget easier, it's just different.
Yeah, but it is that's.
That's a fact.
Yeah, it's a fact.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
It's easier in some aspects, more difficult in some
yeah, just as equally exhausting, still feeling like I don't
know what the hell I'm doing noone does and we are apparently
we're in the sweet spot with theage that our kids are and I
keep telling my husband we haveto like heal from the trauma of,
like the baby years andeverything that did to our
(42:21):
marriage and like fix it.
And like fix our marriage andbe real close before the teen
years.
Just like explode everythingback up again and like fix it.
And like fix our marriage andbe real close before the teen
years.
Just like explode everythingback up again and like, by the
way, if you mute me and create areel out of that, that'll just
look ridiculous of the way thatI was just like throwing myself
around.
I'm very, I'm Italian, I'm verydramatic.
There's lots of we just might.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Okay, we just might, we just might, just for fun,
take the idea and run with it.
Look at annie, she's lost hermind actually anyways.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
But yeah, like I, I'm always like, oh my god, like,
okay, we you know the baby yearswere hard on on the marriage
and then like this is a sweetspot.
And then we're gonna get intoaging parents and teenagers and
like when do we get to like loveeach other without stress?
Speaker 1 (43:09):
and I think that's why sex is so nice, because it's
it's not your space, you're,you're, you're in a different
world and like yeah, yeah well,and I also Like I know that's
another separate podcast episode, but I do feel as though, very
(43:30):
similarly like my husband and Ihave probably had the hardest
year we've ever had this year Ican agree.
But, like, every time we talkabout stuff like truly like we
have kids around the same age,so we have kids the exact same
age as actually six and eight,but like, so, if you think about
(43:51):
it, we.
I always pin picture like mydaughter, because that's really
where I struggled the most.
2018 hot mess for me.
He had to pick up all of thosepieces.
Yeah, 2019 was the same.
2020 was was the pandemic.
2021 was the pandemic.
2022, even part of that yearwas.
(44:11):
So that was all survival.
And now we're all like kind ofgetting back to our lives.
But then looking at each other,like who are you?
We never spend time togetherbecause we have been doing
nothing but surviving.
And now that we're not, it'slike, oh my God, is everything
going to be OK?
And like yeah, it will be, but Ialso think that's very normal
(44:35):
and people don't talk about itbecause you know we're perfect
and love each other all the time.
No, I don't.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, exactly, and I have a friend her youngest just
went off to high school andshe's like you think that's when
you and your husband get tolike have all this fun together
again.
And she's like we are feelingvery distant, we have to figure
out like how we work againwithout worrying about balancing
schedules and all the kidsstuff, like it's just us.
(45:05):
And so I think yourrelationship is always going
through different transitionsand you're always trying to find
your way back to each other.
But I do think if you can goaway or go to dinner and still
laugh and have fun, like that'sthe hope that I hold on to.
And there's times, you know,when you're dealing with like a
(45:27):
lot, lot and you try to go todinner and you're like I'm just
not into it.
But if most of the time you'regoing out and you guys are just
like sticking your fingers upeach other's noses and like
having a good time.
There's some hope there that Ithink you'll be OK.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more and I don't know,
maybe that's the point of thisrelationship agree more and I
don't know, maybe that's thepoint of this relationship.
Like, actually I watched thisTikTok the other night and it
was like it was probably themost profound TikTok I've ever
watched, but the it was like anolder lady and she was like you
need to marry the person thatwill I forget how she said it
but you like you need to marrythe person that will hold your
(46:03):
hand when you watch your parentstake their last breath.
And I just remember like I knowit's making me emotional, but
she was like the point is likeyou don't marry someone for
their looks or their money orthis or that, because that like
ebbs and flows, like your wholerelationship, like you have to
think about the big, big piecesof your life.
(46:24):
And I think kind of what you'resaying is true and like maybe
we need to let go of the idea ofwhat a relationship is supposed
to look like.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
It's it's it's hard.
I think maybe that's the phasewe're in now is not just when we
were younger and had babies wewere comparing ourselves to
other moms.
I think now we're comparingourselves to other families and
marriages and relationships andI know my husband and I have
gone through a really reallyhard year this year too and I
(46:55):
look at some couples and like Ialmost find the village is more
important now, um, because it'sit's almost easier to justify
going and spending that timetogether when your kids are
older.
But like I find so many ways toresent the fact that like we
(47:15):
don't have the the marriage thatother people have, like it's.
But I think everybody has theirhard moments.
You can't everybody does.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
It's just like it was when, when we were postpartum
and those moms that were postingthose beautiful curated photos
were just as unhappy as you are,and maybe not struggling with
mental illness, but stillstruggling, because everybody
struggles in that stage and Ithink of that too, like when I
see things and I'm like, well,how come we're not like that, or
(47:46):
how come I'm not like that, orwhatever.
I also try and remember likethey have bad times too.
They captured this onebeautiful moment, but what was
behind that moment?
How many takes did it take toget that moment?
How many date nights did theycancel to get that moment?
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Yeah, really the stage of life that we're in is
there's a lot of people that Iknow who are going through crazy
things in their marriages andnobody would know by looking at
them, right.
So I think you just like, aslike you were as a new mom like
it's hard not to look out butlook in and it's funny Dave and
(48:27):
I were watching this show onetime and it was the psychologist
or something and they're likewhat's the one piece of advice
that you can give to people whoare like struggling with um, you
know the comparison game andjust all and feeling
disappointed about stuff.
And they said lower yourexpectations.
And Dave and I howled and wewere like what?
But really like lower yourexpectations.
(48:50):
There's, there's only so muchthat is realistic, right, and
obviously have a certain amountof expectations.
But like let's account for justlike everything that is going
on in our world and adjust ourexpectations to that, and I
think there's better chance forhappiness in that.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
I could not agree more.
Well, I'm going to wrap us upbecause, like the next thing you
know, we're going to be talkingabout like God knows what.
But I just like appreciate youso much because this is this has
been a really hard year for meand when you post things and
whatever, I'm just like I just Iget you, I see you, I hear you,
(49:33):
I just I love the realness andI love having other people on,
like you, that will just be realbecause, although, yes, this is
the sweet spot, we are in agreat space.
I love spending time with mykids they are freaking awesome
little humans I am still just asexhausted and you know there's
(49:53):
other things at play now andlife is very bumpy and I'm
grateful for people like youthat want to talk about, like
when we get to sit in the in theditches.
You know, when we're on thebumps and then you kind of get
stuck in the ditch at the bottomthere, yeah, and it's kicking
you in the in the ditches youknow when we're on the bumps and
then you kind of get stuck inthe ditch at the bottom there.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Yeah, and it's kicking you in the face.
Yep, I'm grateful for you too,and I think it's because I don't
know about you, but in my headI'm still 19.
Like it doesn't make sense tome that this is my life, like I
look in the mirror and I'm like,ooh, no, I'm older than I feel,
um, but yeah, yeah, it's like areality check all the time.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
That like we are in charge somebody put us in charge
, and I don't know who did that,but I would really like them to
take my adulting capabilitiesaway, because I'm not sure this
is safe yeah, it's chaos.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
It's chaos, but it's a good chaos.
Everyone's going through iteveryone is.
So if you are relating, justremember that you're not alone,
never never, never, never, andif you find that, you can talk
about it, that's where you findyour people leave everybody,
please, annie, where can theyfollow?
Speaker 1 (50:57):
you find you plug your book again, please for the
love.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
It's a wonderful book , thank you um
annaleeslaottoncom is my websiteand um, I guess, on Instagram
at Annie Lawton underscore.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
Yeah, awesome, yeah Well, thank you so much and
thank you, guys for tuning inand we'll talk to you soon.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the honest
as a mother podcast.
Don't forget to subscribe, rateand review.
I'm really looking forward tohearing from you.
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