February 19, 2025 • 44 mins
Is the prosperity gospel leading believers astray? Pastor Chad Wagner from Excelsior Springs, Missouri, joins us to dissect the controversial Word of Faith movement and its New Age influences.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Chad Wagner, the pastor from Excelsior Springs
Church in Missouri, joins meagain for another fascinating
discussion about the Word ofFaith movement and how it is
detrimental to the Christianfaith.
If that statement affected younegatively, don't shut this off
until you hear what is said.
Be sure to write down anydisagreements, comments or
(00:21):
questions you have so you cansend them in with the link in
the show notes after the episode.
Let's get to it Before theepisode starts.
Make sure you follow the showso you never miss another
(00:42):
episode.
Hello again, chad.
Thank you so much for comingback to the podcast.
We can talk about a veryimportant topic and also very
it's definitely going to rubpeople the wrong way.
Not that the other one you werein didn't do that, but this
one's definitely going to do ittoo.
But before we get in today'stopic, why don't you share a
(01:02):
little bit about who you are forthose who haven't tuned into
that episode yet, Sure, yeah,and thanks for having me back
again.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
The last one was fun and I assume this one will be
the same.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
So I pastor a little church here in Excelsior Springs
, missouri, which is near KansasCity, and I've been here for
about six years and I pastoredin Minneapolis for five years
prior to that, and we'reindependent Baptists, so we're
not charismatics or into theWord of Faith or any of that
(01:34):
charismatic stuff, but I'mfamiliar with it through
studying it and preaching aboutit.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Okay, well, let's jump into it.
We're going to talk about Wordof Faith, or, as some people say
, who are against it, blab itand grab it, name it and claim
it prosperity, gospel, all thosethings are rolled in the words
of affirmation, I think, oraffirmation statements, maybe
it's called.
(01:59):
There's laws of attraction, allthese buzzwords that have
seeped into Christianity andthey are starting to lead people
astray.
So you said that you haven'thad too much experience with
this.
I know I have.
Up until probably a little afterCOVID started, I was still into
(02:22):
this.
I listened to Joyce Meyer.
It started, I was still intothis.
I listened to Joyce Meyer.
I didn't really listen to JoelOsteen or Stephen Furtick.
They both just kind of rubbedme wrong from the very beginning
.
Anyways, their style andthere's something off about them
.
But I was really drawn to JoyceMeyer, who was my stepdad, who
(02:43):
was the one who kept trying tobe the voice of reason, trying
to tell me there's something offabout her.
It's not right.
I just wasn't listening.
I was a total Joyce Meyer.
I don't even know what you callit apologist, I guess until I
started listening to DoreenVirtue and some other people who
were talking about how this isnew age.
Then my eyes were open, thescales came off and my stepdad's
(03:07):
like ah, you finally get it.
So what have you studied aboutthis and what is your opinion
about it?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, I sort of stumbled into it by accident.
I had heard about the Word ofFaith movement years ago in
sermons from my pastor.
He basically just touched on itand I thought it was mostly
just about the prosperity gospeland the name it and claim it
and if you believe you'll berich, you will.
Or if you have enough faiththat you'll be wealthy, you will
.
But I didn't realize the extentto which the Word of Faith
(03:43):
thing went and so I didn'treally have any reason to look
into it.
And then here a couple of yearsago, one of the regular
attendees of our church asked meif I would review this book.
He wanted to share it withother people in the church, but
he wanted me to look over itfirst and just make sure it was
okay.
And so I said yeah, sure, andasked him what the book was.
And he said it's by CharlesCapps and it's called the Tongue
(04:06):
A Creative Force.
And so I thought I'll suspendmy doubt right now, because just
the title of a book called theTongue A Creative Force just
sounded like it couldn'tpossibly be a good book to me,
unless the title was completelymisleading.
And then I thought, okay, I'llread it and just see what it's
about.
Maybe I've totally misjudgedjudging a book by its cover, its
(04:28):
title.
So I got the book and I didn'tget past the first sentence in
the book which essentially saidGod created the universe by the
power of his words.
And he's got power in his words, and so do you and you can do
the same thing, essentially.
And I'm just like what in theworld, why would he recommend
this book to me or want anybodyelse to read it?
And I thought I need to have atalk with him.
(04:50):
But I'll read through the wholebook first and then we'll talk
about it.
And so I'm reading further andfurther and I didn't quite get
through the book yet.
And then I get an email fromhim and he's like oh, I'm sorry,
I gave you the wrong book.
From him and he's like oh, I'msorry, I gave you the wrong book
.
And he was thinking of someother title and wasn't referring
to this book at all.
And I kind of breathed a sighof relief because I thought, boy
, if you believe this stuff, wedefinitely need to have a talk.
(05:12):
So anyway, by reading that bookI learned what the Word of
Faith movement's all about,because Charles Capps was one of
the big names in this, he andKenneth Copeland are probably
the two biggest names.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
I've heard of Kenneth Copeland, but I've never heard
of the other one before.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I hadn't heard of Capps either.
This book had been at least thecopy I have.
It's sold 900,000 copies, soit's quite popular.
And so what I learned in thisbook was that the idea is that
we have power in our words andthey twist a few scriptures.
(05:48):
There's one in Markspecifically.
I can read it here.
It's in Mark 11, 22, and down afew verses.
And Jesus, answering, said untothem this is to the apostles
have faith in God, for verily Isay unto you that whosoever
shall say unto this mountain, bethou removed and be thou cast
(06:08):
into the sea, and shall notdoubt in his heart but shall
believe that those things whichhe sayeth shall come to pass, he
shall have whatsoever he sayeth.
Therefore, I say unto youwhatsoever things you desire
when you pray, believe that youreceive them and you shall have
them.
And there are other parallelverses and there's a few other
verses like that in the Bible.
(06:28):
And so they take that verse andthey say that therefore, you
just whatever you want, you justsay it, you believe that you
have it and you'll have whateveryou want.
And so Capps would say that ifyou so, for instance if you're
sick, if you have a cold or aflu or something.
And he says if you feel youhave symptoms of the flu, and
(06:50):
you say and this is whateverybody does he says and he's
right the first thing you do istell somebody I think I'm
catching the flu or I think Ihave the flu.
Devil, because the devil'strying to put this flu on you.
And then you have just said Ihave the flu.
So you have affirmed what thedevil is trying to give you and
you've basically accepted it andnow you have the flu.
(07:11):
You weren't sick before, youjust thought you were, but now
you're going to be sick becauseyou've professed faith in what
the devil is trying to give you.
What you should do, according toCapps, according to Copeland
and guys like this, is youshould say I am not sick, I may
feel like I'm sick, I am notsick, I am well in the name of
Jesus, and believe what you saidand there's power in your words
and you won't be sick.
(07:32):
And this would be if, maybe ifyou've lost your job, the same
kind of thing.
Instead of going to God andsaying I've lost my job and now
I don't have money to pay themortgage, nope, you've just
professed faith in the devil.
He's the one that's trying toimpoverish you.
What you should say is I am notpoor, I am wealthy, I am rich.
In the name of Jesus, andyou'll have whatever you say.
(07:54):
And so when I realized that thisis what he's talking about,
then I thought, wow, this isextremely dangerous because for
one thing, it's just flat outnot true.
This is a total twisting ofwhat Jesus was talking about.
For one thing.
For two, jesus specifically Idon't know I can get into this
now or later, but Jesus wasspeaking to the apostles, and
(08:16):
then they did have thissupernatural, special gift of
faith that if they I literallybelieve that if they would have
had faith and said to a mountain, remove hence and be cast into
the sea, that it would havehappened.
I don't think Jesus wasspeaking with hyperbole or
exaggerating.
They, as the apostles, had thatgift of faith.
(08:37):
Paul says, though I had faiththat I could move mountains in 1
Corinthians 13.
In 1 Corinthians 12, as wetalked about in the last episode
that we did together on thespiritual gifts, the sign gifts,
the miraculous gifts, in thatpassage there in 1 Corinthians
12, probably 8 through 11 orsomething like that several
(08:59):
gifts are listed there that aremiraculous in nature Knowledge,
the gift of knowledge, the giftof wisdom, the working of
miracles, the gift of faith.
It says tongues, interpretationof tongues, healing all those
are miraculous gifts and they'reall listed there together.
And I think a lot of timespeople, when they see wisdom,
knowledge and faith, they thinkthat that's referring to normal
(09:22):
wisdom, knowledge and faith andfaith.
They think that that'sreferring to normal wisdom,
knowledge and faith, but in thatit's grouped together with
those supernatural gifts.
It's a supernatural gift ofknowledge, wisdom and faith that
the apostles had.
The apostles could know thingsthrough revelation, through
direct revelation, that wewouldn't be able to know just
through natural means.
And it's the same with thisgift of faith.
They had that kind of faiththat they could have moved
(09:44):
mountains, they could have casta tree into the sea right, they
could have done the things thatJesus said.
And as we looked at last time,those gifts have passed away.
They've passed out of existenceby the end of the first century
and so that gift is not givento us today.
And furthermore, the idea ofsaying I'm not sick.
(10:05):
Jesus never taught anythinglike that.
Paul told Timothy to have alittle wine for their stomach's
sake and that often infirmities.
He didn't tell Timothy, youjust say I don't have a stomach
ache, I am well in the name ofJesus.
He said have a little wine.
Paul went to the Lord threetimes that the thorn in the
flesh would depart from him.
(10:25):
He didn't go and say I have nothorn in the flesh, I am well in
the name of Jesus.
He asked God to take away thethorn in the flesh.
He acknowledged he had a thornin the flesh and asked God to
take it away.
So this whole idea of the wordof faith is just nonsense, this
saying what you want and it willhappen.
And furthermore, it's a, it's a, I don't want to say it.
(10:48):
It's a misuse of language.
For one thing, because if whatyou mean when you say I am well,
if you really mean I believeI'm going to be well, but you
say I am well, then you're notusing language correctly.
Because if you are in fact sickand you say I am well and you
mean I am going to be well, well, then you don't understand verb
(11:08):
tenses right.
So you've misused language forone thing.
For two, it also turns a personinto either a liar or a lunatic
, because if you are in factsick and you say I am.
Well, I am not sick.
There's two possibilitiesEither you're sick and you say
you're not sick, which is bydefinition a lie, so you're
(11:28):
lying.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Denial too.
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Or you're crazy because you are in fact sick but
you don't think you're sick andyou say you're not sick when
you in fact are sick andtherefore you are divorced from
reality.
So you don't understand, you'reout of your mind.
So there's just so many thingsthat are wrong with this idea,
but anyway.
So I read that book, justgetting back to that, and it was
providential, I would say,because we had a person in our
(12:00):
church that had been involved inthis Word of Faith movement and
at the time when he joined Ididn't really know what he had
been involved in this word offaith movement and I didn't.
At the time when he joined, Ididn't really know what he'd
been involved in in the past, orI thought he kind of you know
that was in the past.
Well then, as time goes on, hewas using language that was just
a little odd to me.
He kept talking about how ourconfession is important and I
(12:21):
thought he's using the word in abiblical context context
because the Bible uses the wordconfession or profession and
basically interchangeably torefer to you, are, you are
declaring certain things likeyour faith, your, your
confession of your faith wouldbe declaring it before men,
telling men what you believe, orconfessing your sins to God,
telling God your sins, askingfor forgiveness, things like
(12:43):
that.
And so when he's using he'ssaying, your confession is
important, and I'm thinking,well, yeah, yeah, it is
important.
But it didn't make sense in thecontext in which he was saying
it to me, because I didn'tunderstand the terminology.
But what he was referring to isthis thing called positive
confession and that is part andparcel with the word of faith.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
I was very heavy into that, close to the end of me
being involved in this.
In general, I was doing a lotof the no, don't say you're sick
.
I would hound my husband if hewas looking like he was going to
say he's sick.
I was like, no, don't say it,don't speak it, and then it
won't happen.
I don't know why it neverclicked before.
(13:26):
That that's not how it works.
You can think it and you couldstill get sick.
What are they going to sayabout that?
Your mind is saying it.
I never understood how I gotinto that and didn't see a
problem with it.
It puts you in bondage.
Basically is what it does.
We're supposed to be set freein Christ when we accept him as
(13:49):
our savior.
That's not freedom.
To constantly be living thatway, that, no, I can't say this
because then this is gonnahappen, or I can't do that
because this is gonna happen.
That's not freedom.
That's being put back indifferent chains.
You have just put yourself in anew bondage.
Yeah, I was definitely into thedeclaring things, positive
(14:13):
statements.
You can't be negative, don't benegative.
I tell my kids stop being sonegative, be positive, and
there's a time for that.
Yes, there's always a time tobe positive.
You don't have to be allnegative, doom and gloom.
There's always a time to bepositive.
You don't have to be allnegative, doom and gloom.
You don't have to be uberpositive.
There's a time for both, andthe Bible clearly tells us that
(14:33):
we are going to suffer.
So either he's a liar orwhoever's telling us we're not
meant to suffer and we're meantto be rich is a liar.
Rich is a liar.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Well, if you think about it, the prosperity gospel
is essentially telling peoplethat if you have faith you're
not going to be poor.
And if you are poor or ifyou're having financial problems
, then it's because you don'thave faith.
And yet that is not ascriptural position.
The Bible says blessed are thepoor in spirit.
(15:04):
If you have a poor man, comeinto your assembly, don't say
boy, there's a man who has nofaith.
That's not what Jesus or Jamessaid, that it's not a shame to
be poor.
If you're poor for the wrongreasons, if you're poor because
you're stupid and you make dumbdecisions and waste your money
on stuff, that's one thing.
But if your lot in life is tonot have very much materially,
there's nothing wrong with that.
Jesus Christ himself had.
(15:25):
He said the son of man hath notwhere to lay his head.
So Jesus didn't have his ownhouse.
Jesus wasn't.
He says he became poor for oursakes.
So there's nothing wrong withbeing poor.
And you have example of bothrich and poor believers in the
church, both Old and NewTestament.
Lazarus and the rich man right.
The rich man went to hell andLazarus the rich man's dogs were
(15:48):
licking the sores on him and hewas eating the crumbs that fell
from his table.
That man is a righteous man inheaven, right?
So your standing in this worlddoes not determine the lack of
the amount of faith you have ordon't have.
So that's a malignment of whatthe scripture teaches.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
It's very toxic.
It can send someone away fromJesus Christ because they, if
they don't get healthy, if theydon't get wealthy, they must not
have had enough faith.
So they need to figure out howdo I get more faith?
And a lot of them say, oh, sowmore seed, which is their code
for give us more money, orwhatever they say pray more, do
(16:31):
this more.
What does more mean?
Nobody ever knows, nobody evertells you this is it, this is
where you will arrive and thisis when it will happen.
They don't tell you thatbecause they don't know, because
they don't have a way.
They're just making money offof all these desperate people
who want to have a truerelationship with Jesus, want to
(16:51):
be free, want health and wealth.
We all want to take care of ourfamilies, we all want to stay
healthy, but this is not ourhome and we aren't meant to be
here forever.
When it's our time, it's ourtime, and if we're not meant to
have wealth, if the Bible talksabout how, if you're not
faithful with the little, howcan you be faithful with much?
Why is he going to make a wholebunch of people rich when you
(17:13):
clearly aren't making rightchoices with what you have.
They aren't sharing the gospeland because of that there's a
whole bunch of people in newlegalistic bondage and it drives
people away from God.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
It's devastating.
The way that the devil usuallyoperates is he'll mix a little
bit of truth in with a lot oflie, and so in almost any false
system, false doctrine, falsereligion, there's always some
truth in them.
And in the Word of Faithmovement there is some truth in
that.
In the prosperity gospelthere's some truth.
(17:51):
The Bible does teach inProverbs 3, 9, and 10, honor the
Lord with thy substance andwith the first fruit of all that
increase, so shall thy barns befilled with plenty and thy
presses shall burst out with newwine.
And that is true.
I've experienced it in my lifeand I've seen lots of other
people experience it.
When people give to the Lord,he does, he provides for them,
(18:12):
he blesses them.
But it's not a one-to-one thing, it's not something.
Oh, I'm just going to give thisamount and I know I'm going to
get more back.
But so anyway, there is anelement of truth to what they're
saying, but it's taken and it'stwisted and it's used for their
own benefit.
They're like the Pharisees thatdevour widows' houses and
they've deceived unknowingpeople, ignorant people that
(18:36):
don't know the scripture, andturn them into headless
followers, basically, and thenthey just do whatever they're
told and then they end up beingsold to Billy Goods.
It's just, it's terribly sad.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
What do you know about laws of attraction?
It's, it's um, those in theword of faith and prosperity.
Gospel wouldn't specificallytalk about this, but they're
positive affirmations andpositivity.
You can't be negative.
Don't speak this.
All that stuff is laws ofattraction, which is a new age
(19:08):
practice.
Have you learned anything aboutit and, if so, what are your
thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
I don't know.
I'm not familiar with the lawsof attraction.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Okay, so I can fill you in, but I want to hear your
opinion on the idea.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, I mean as far as the positivity thing, again,
if you go back to the scripture,read through the Psalms.
How many of the Psalms is Davidmostly David, but other
psalmists too lamenting, cryingout to God about the terrible
affliction they're in, howthey're being persecuted,
praying to be delivered fromtheir enemies?
Or Jeremiah?
(19:42):
Look at Jeremiah inLamentations where he says the
Lord was like a bear unto himand he was just waiting to catch
him and he had a false idea ofGod.
But he clearly was not.
I mean, the book is calledLamentations for a reason.
He was lamenting the horribledestruction of Jerusalem and
this is inspired scripture,right?
(20:02):
So you can't say nobody wouldsay that the book of
Lamentations is positivity right.
Obviously not, and he wasspeaking under writing, under
the inspiration of God, and youjust look back through, look
through the Bible, and just allthe hardship that Paul endured
and how he was beaten andshipwrecked and imprisoned,
right, I mean, is thatpositivity?
Right?
(20:23):
I mean, he's relaying whathappened to him and it was true,
but he wasn't being positivenecessarily as these people
would have us to be.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Who doesn't love free ?
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It's a short devotional full ofencouragement, guidance and
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(20:59):
writing it and since it'sdigital, you can do it anywhere,
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Get the free devotional whenyou sign up for my mailing list.
The link is in the show notes.
So laws of attraction is prettymuch it sounds like the idea of
karma you give what you get.
(21:20):
So if you speak something outinto the world, it better be
something positive.
Otherwise you're going to getwhat you spoke out and if it's
negative, that's going to comeback on you.
So you have to work really hardto choose what you say, how you
say it.
Vision boards are very big.
With this idea, you put avision board up with a whole
(21:42):
bunch of different pictures ofwhat you want out of life.
Maybe it's a future spouse,maybe it's a home, a job, and
you just say these mantras of Iam, this, I am that I can do
this.
It's very self-centered, iswhat it is and it is a new age
practice that has seeped intothe word of faith.
(22:03):
The positive affirmations, thename it and claim it prosperity,
gospel, all those things justsmack.
They're all together now and Igot sucked into some of this,
never did the vision board thingbecause I already had what I
wanted.
I always wanted to be astay-at-home mom and praise the
Lord through every difficultcircumstance I've been in,
(22:26):
through all three of mymarriages, god was still
faithful and he allowed me to dothat.
I don't even know how only Godthat I was able to, especially
now in today's economy, I'm ableto still be one.
That's all I ever wanted to bewas a stay-at-home mom and a
writer, which I am, and now apodcaster.
So I've got what I wanted.
(22:51):
I didn't need to vision boardanything, but I did do a lot of
the other stuff.
The positive affirmations I amthis.
I am that.
I had a hard time believing itbecause I couldn't get past the
first one.
I am a child of God.
I knew I am child of God.
I know these things headwise,but I never believed it in my
heart.
I have low self-esteem that I'mstill kind of working on in
(23:13):
certain areas.
But if you can't believe it inyour heart, then it's probably
not helpful to say those thingsanyways, because then at that
point you're just saying amantra.
So I did all that, I triedreally hard to say positive
things, told my whole familyshush, shush, don't say anything
negative.
If my parents were sayingsomething negative I'd shut them
(23:36):
down.
And sometimes you shut peopledown just because you don't want
to hear negative.
You don't need to hear negativeAgain.
There's a time and a placewhere maybe you need to hear it.
My stepdad trying to tell me thedangers of listening to Joyce
Meyer.
To me it was like oh, you'retrying to bring my, you're
harshing my mellow or whateveryou want to call it.
(23:56):
You're bringing me down.
Man, don't do that.
But that's not what he wasdoing.
He was trying to tell me whydon't you take a deeper look at
who you're following?
Maybe there's something wrongand because it came from family,
maybe my I'm not going tolisten to my parent, kind of
thing just turned me off.
Eventually I figured it out onmy own.
But it is a dangerous idea lawsof attraction that you're going
(24:20):
to attract these things to youif you do these things.
That is not how it works.
God is not a genie.
We can't make him do what wewant.
We can't manifest things.
That's another thing that'sreally big.
I've heard it in a lot ofdifferent Christian circles too.
They'll say the word, and Icringe now when I hear that,
(24:42):
because it's a complete new ageterm and it's definitely big
with the laws of attraction andall this word of faith you can
manifest.
It goes back to what you read inthat very first paragraph of
that book, that our words arepowerful.
Jesus or God spoke the worldinto existence, and we have that
power too.
No, we do not.
Or God spoke the world intoexistence and we have that power
to.
No, we do not.
If we did, then where is mybundles of money that I used to
(25:08):
say we were going to have?
Where is my child, who is stilla prodigal child right now,
going through some stuff?
Why is she no longer?
Why is she not no longer aprodigal?
I guess that makes sense.
It's like these things that Ispoke into existence.
I would go to the devil and sayyou can't have my children, they
belong to Jesus, telling himoff like he's standing there and
(25:28):
I'm having a go at him and he'sprobably just sitting there
laughing at me, but I feel superpowerful because I'm telling
him like it is and that he can'tdo this in the name of Jesus.
But it wasn't working.
It didn't work.
He still has one of my childrenand I still have a health issue
that gets me to three, fourtimes a year that affects my
(25:56):
nerves because of somethingstupid I did when I was younger.
He may have healed it whereit's not contagious when I get
one of those issues flare ups,but I still have it.
He may have healed part of it,but he didn't heal all of it.
So does that mean my faithwasn't good enough?
I stopped for a while speakingthat I wasn't sick, but I think
I got sick the most during thosetimes.
I don't do that anymore and Ihaven't really been sick.
(26:20):
I mean winter's here soon, sowho knows, we'll see but I've
also been eating better, sothat's one thing, but it's just.
This is very toxic.
It messes with faith, it messeswith your brain waves, it
messes with your heart and I donot like it at all.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah, I mean it's absolutely destructive to faith
because it sets you up for majordisappointment If you think
that as a believer, if you justbelieve, everything's going to
be fine, because the Bible isfull of examples of people that
were believers and bad thingshappened to them.
I mean look at.
John the Baptist.
John the Baptist was thegreatest prophet that ever lived
(27:00):
.
According to Jesus, he didnothing wrong.
He rebuked the king for hisadultery and his wickedness and
because of some foolish vow theking made, john ended up getting
his head cut off.
For no, he didn't do anythingwrong, right?
So I mean, if all you have todo is have faith, are we saying
that John didn't have faithBecause obviously he got his
head cut off?
Stephen was stoned, right?
(27:21):
Stephen didn't do anythingwrong.
Stephen defended the truth andhe was stoned for it.
Did Stephen not have faith?
Of course he did.
Jesus ended up dying on a cross.
Is it because he didn't havefaith?
Of course he had faith, right?
So I mean, it's just nonsenseto say that if you are faithful,
that everything's going to gowell for you.
It's just simply not true.
To set somebody up for that isto set them up for a crisis of
(27:46):
faith when they've done what youtold them to and things have
not turned out well.
And then they think well, itmust have been me, because
Kenneth Copeland obviously musthave a lot of faith.
He's rich, he's wealthy, he'sdoing well, so it's just me.
Apparently, I didn't dosomething right, and then people
could end up losing their faithaltogether, which is terrible.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, it feeds on emotions, feelings, the heart of
somebody.
I believe a lot of the peoplewho are sucked into this are
just hungry for truth, hungryfor the presence of God, hungry
for a close relationship withthem.
I know I was.
And because you get all thefeels with it when things go
(28:29):
your way or when they tell you areally powerful quote, unquote
sermon that speaks to where youare because they know how to
speak to you and it's all aboutyou and you may or may not have
heard any Bible verses and youprobably didn't have your Bible
open to check and see if theywere even said correctly you get
(28:52):
that emotional high.
You get that I am powerfulfeeling.
I am the child of God, I can dothis.
You start thinking it, youstart believing it, because your
whole heart just wants to bewhat God has called you to be.
And they're telling you whatGod has called you to be.
And they're telling you whatGod has called you to be.
And you're believing it andyou're feeling it.
(29:13):
And how can it be wrong withyour feelings?
Because you feel God's HolySpirit is working in you right
now and then you go and dosomething with that and maybe it
works out for you.
Satan's going to do what he'sgoing to do, and sometimes
that's going to be giving youwhat you want.
He's going to make it seem likeit's working.
(29:35):
If he didn't do that, thenpeople wouldn't be sucked into
these practices.
You don't get sucked into theoccult if it doesn't work.
If you're trying to channelyour dead grandparents and you
go to somebody who can't do it,that's not going to make you
want to go back, because clearlythey're a charlatan.
You can't trust them.
(29:55):
Why are you going to continuedown that road?
You don't use a Ouija board.
You don't use word of faith ifthese things don't work.
You use these practices becauseat some point they have done
what they are meant to do.
That's how you get drawn in.
That's how you get sucked in.
That's how anyone gets suckedinto anything they like doing,
(30:17):
over and over and over again,because at some point it did
what it was meant to do.
Satan's crafty.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Human pride too, because you end up having people
think that the in themselveswhich is pride, and yet the
(30:49):
Bible says the opposite, thatGod resisteth the proud, but he
giveth grace to the humble, andthat we ought to have a low
opinion of ourselves, not a highopinion of ourselves.
And furthermore, it's puttingconfidence in man.
I mean the man in this casewould be yourself.
And the Bible says cursed is hewhich trusteth in man.
Because really, what you'redoing is you're trusting in your
faith.
You're, instead of trusting inGod's promises, you're trusting
(31:15):
in what you have done or whatyou have said, and believing
that the power is in you andyou've essentially turned
yourself into God.
Because God it says in Romans 4, 17, that he calleth those
things which be not as thoughthey were.
God said and in the context he'stalking about, when God said to
Abraham I have made thee afather of many nations, when
Abraham had no children.
(31:35):
Yet God can do that, God cansay God can misuse language, if
you will, in the example that Iused earlier, where God can say
I have made thee a father ofmany nations, when he's not
actually a father of manynations yet, Because God has
number one.
God sees the end from thebeginning, and God has the power
(31:57):
to enforce whatever his wordsays.
So if God says he's going to dosomething, it's going to be
done, period, because he hasinfinite power to accomplish
that.
We don't, because he hasinfinite power to accomplish
that, we don't.
But if you think that you do,if you teach somebody that if
they say something that they'regoing to have what they say,
(32:18):
you've essentially given themgodlike power that they too can
call things which be not asthough they were, and that's
just not true.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Yeah, apparently, joyce Meyer and Stephen Furtick,
I believe, have both said we'rekind of little gods, which I
think I stopped listening to herbefore.
Who knows, maybe she said itbefore.
I mean, when you're deep inthis, I don't think you realize
how many problems there reallyare with it until you are no
(32:45):
longer in it.
So I'm now seeing certainthings and I'm like, oh wow, how
did I not notice that before?
Or why didn't?
I think that that sounded wonky.
I had some discernment.
I knew that there was somethingoff about Stephen Furtick.
I knew there was something offabout Joel Osteen, kenneth
(33:06):
Copeland there's just otherpeople where I was like I don't
really want to listen to themanymore.
Or I listened to certain peoplefor a little bit Robert Morris,
or the one who was just fromGateway Church.
I used to listen to him for awhile and then at some point,
long before the bombshell cameout about him, I had stopped
(33:26):
listening to him because I waslike I was cleaning house God
was cleaning my house out of thethings that I had trusted in
and believed in, that were wordof faith and all these things,
and he was one of them that went, and I'm glad because that
those kinds of things shake yourfaith too.
When somebody you trusted, youlistened to all their teachings
(33:47):
and then, boom, somethinghappened.
You're like whoa, that's goingto mess with your faith too.
But you don't know the depth ofhow serious these things are
until you're out of it.
I've started believing thatthat's true, because if you talk
to somebody who's into the wordof faith and prosperity gospel,
(34:09):
they don't really want to hearwhat you have to say.
If you're trying to shut themdown from being positive,
depending on who they are, ifyou have a close relationship
with them, maybe they'll listento what you have to say.
But you have to come at itgingerly.
You can't just blurt out youropinion, but a lot of times they
don't want to hear it becausethey view what you have to say
(34:31):
as negativity.
Like I said with my stepdad, hewas trying to tell me about
Joyce Meyer and I didn't want tohear it.
I was like you just don't likeher because she's a woman
preacher and all.
I don't believe in womenpreachers anymore.
I don't think they should bedoing that.
But I was justifying all thesedifferent things and that's what
you do when you are in.
This is you justify, you bendover backwards trying to make it
(34:54):
make sense Because somewhereinside of you I think you
realize it doesn't make sense.
Because I feel like, if youtruly have a good handle on your
position, you're okay to talkto somebody who doesn't agree
with you.
For believers trying to sharethe gospel, you should be
willing to have a conversationwith someone who doesn't agree
with you and you should be ableto be gracious about it, because
(35:16):
what you believe is true andyou don't need to bend over
backwards, coming up withwhatever you have your proof.
If you don't have your proof,perhaps you should take a better
look at what you're trying todefend and see why you're so
hostile to hearing a differingopinion.
And that's kind of what startedgetting me away from Joyce
(35:37):
Meyer is.
Every single time I startedlistening to her, I kept hearing
his voice and I kept hearingother people who may have said
something about her.
And then all the podcasts I waslistening to it started coming
in and I started receiving itrather than pushing it away and
saying, oh no, whatever, don'ttake away my elevation music or
whatever.
It gives me the feels, allthese different things I allowed
(35:59):
God to do whatever he wastrying to do in me and I allowed
him to have that chance tobreak me free from the false
doctrines that I was following.
I pray that the listeners willalso have that heart posture of
allowing someone to speak withlove into your heart and share
the honest truth.
(36:20):
I mean, I am more than willingto bet Chad that you, if someone
who's listening wanted tocontact you and talk further
about this, you would be open tohaving a conversation, right?
Oh sure, sure, I would be opento it.
There's people who are willingto have conversations.
If you have more questionsabout this, don't just shut us
(36:41):
off because you don't like whatwe're saying.
There's truth to what we'resaying.
Listen to it.
The Holy Spirit will guide youand that's what you need to
listen to is the Holy Spirit,because there's a lot of people
out there who are trying todeceive.
There's some meaning.
There's people out there whomean well within these false
(37:02):
practices, but then there's alot of people who don't, and you
have to be careful and you haveto realize who truly loves you.
They're going to tell you thetruth at the expense of your
friendship, your family,whatever it is.
They're going to tell you thetruth and if they're willing to
do that sacrifice, perhaps youshould listen yeah, it's like
(37:23):
david said let the righteoussmite me, it should be a
kindness.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Let him reprove me, it should be an excellent oil
which shall not break my head.
So, yeah, the loving thing todo is to correct somebody when
they're wrong, instead ofallowing them to go on a
self-destructive path I thinkabout.
I was just thinking about thisas you were talking about how it
(37:48):
can put people in such bondage.
I knew a Word of Faith preacherhere in town.
I didn't know him really wellbut I had met him a couple of
times and at the time I didn'tknow much about the Word of
Faith.
Well, then he ended up having abad heart attack and they got
him to the hospital in time tokeep him alive and then I think
he had a stroke and ended upbeing incapacitated and lived
(38:11):
that way for, I think, a coupleof years.
It was really sad.
And another pastor friend ofmine here in town, I would ask
him about him once in a whileand he said, yeah, it's really
hard to get any information outof his wife or family because
he's in this word of faith thingand at the time I didn't know
why would that matter?
And but what I realized is, ifyou ask his wife, say how's
brother Mike doing?
(38:31):
Well, she can't say well, he'snot doing well, yeah, he's
basically incapacitated, hecan't talk or he can't walk or
whatever, and yeah, thingsaren't looking very well.
She either has to say nothingor say, oh Mike is well, mike's
doing great in the name of Jesus, he's healed, or whatever
nonsense which isn't even true.
And so you can't even have aconversation with somebody.
(38:55):
You can't be honest aboutanything, because if you're not
positive then you're going toinvite the curse upon yourself.
You think so.
You have to be positive and youhave to basically pretend
things are not the way theyreally are, and it's just a
terrible bondage to be in.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
It's heartbreaking and I'm still dealing with
residuals from it.
There's still times where Idon't want to say something
because I'm afraid it mighthappen, and I have to catch
myself and say, no, I'm notgoing to live in fear.
If I say it and it happens,it's probably not because I said
it.
It's probably because it wasmeant to happen anyways.
(39:32):
And if it does happen and ithad something to do with what I
said, whatever, I can't doanything at that point.
It already happened and Ialready said it.
What are you going to do?
So I've started trying to trainmy brain that I can't be afraid
because God is in control,whether good things or bad
things happen, and I trust thathe loves me through it, and it's
(39:54):
still something I'm processingthrough.
I'm thankful that it didn'tlast too long with my family, to
the point where my kids arealready trained in it.
They aren't, and my husband'sstill kind of a new believer.
He's only been a believer for10 plus years and I beat myself
up a lot because I've beenleading him down different paths
(40:16):
based off of how I grew up,whether my parents were
intentional about how theyraised me or not, and the things
that I learned as a child, as ayoung adult, the word of faith,
all these different things.
I was trying to suck him intothose things too.
Him and I are learning togethernow what is true, what isn't
(40:36):
true.
Never a dull moment in our house.
One minute he was like well, Ithought you believed in that.
I was like that was a few yearsago.
Now I've done more study and Idon't believe it anymore.
He's like okay, so it's alwaysa journey.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
The justice as the shining light that shineth more
and more into the perfect day.
That's the Christian life weshould be as we go along finding
more and more truth andrejecting more and more error.
So that's just how it goes.
We don't learn it all up front,all at the same time.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Yeah, I agree.
Well, thank you so much, chad,for coming on and talking to me
today about this.
It's definitely one of thebiggest movements in
Christianity and it's one of themain things that really needs
to go.
Like yesterday, it needs to go.
It's not helping Christians atall.
If anything, I feel like it'shurting it.
(41:31):
It's crippling us from beingable to move forward in what God
really has for us, because weare so stuck in this world and
feeling that we need to becomfortable here rather than
remembering our home is not here, it's in heaven.
We can't store up treasureshere.
We can't expect good thingshere.
(41:53):
This world is broken and wejust have to accept that and
trust that God is in control.
We are not.
We don't have the same powersthat God has.
We can't speak things intoexistence, or I would have a
maid right now cleaning my house, so I don't have to.
(42:14):
I would be able to go visitRussia, something I've always
wanted to do.
There's so many things thathaven't happened for me that I
tried to speak into existence.
They never happen.
You can't manifest these things.
You may think you can andremember everyone listening.
If it does come to pass, thatdoes not necessarily mean that
(42:34):
what you're doing works.
It just means perhaps youshould look at it harder and
figure out was this God or wasthis Satan trying to lure me
into something, into a trap?
Because he doesn't have thesame powers as God, but he does
have some powers over this worldand he is trying to trip up
(42:54):
people, and the more Christianshe can trip up, the better for
him, because then we look likefools to the world and then why
would they want to be Christians?
I feel like he enjoys that most, as opposed to the people who
just flat out say I don'tbelieve in anything, I don't
believe in God.
I think he gets more gigglesout of tripping us up because we
(43:17):
claim Jesus and then we justruined our witness.
When we get sucked into badthings or it comes out that we
did something wrong, and yeah.
So just be careful, read yourBible, stay close to God, be
open to criticism of the thingsyou're doing from people who
(43:38):
love you and who you can tellare risking something from it,
because that could be God tryingto get your attention.
Well, thank you again, chad,for coming on.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, you're welcome, I've enjoyed it.
Chad Wagner, the pastor from Excelsior Springs
Church in Missouri, joins meagain for another fascinating
discussion about the Word ofFaith movement and how it is
detrimental to the Christianfaith.
If that statement affected younegatively, don't shut this off
until you hear what is said.
Be sure to write down anydisagreements, comments or
(00:21):
questions you have so you cansend them in with the link in
the show notes after the episode.
Let's get to it Before theepisode starts.
Make sure you follow the showso you never miss another
(00:42):
episode.
Hello again, chad.
Thank you so much for comingback to the podcast.
We can talk about a veryimportant topic and also very
it's definitely going to rubpeople the wrong way.
Not that the other one you werein didn't do that, but this
one's definitely going to do ittoo.
But before we get in today'stopic, why don't you share a
(01:02):
little bit about who you are forthose who haven't tuned into
that episode yet, Sure, yeah,and thanks for having me back
again.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
The last one was fun and I assume this one will be
the same.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
So I pastor a little church here in Excelsior Springs
, missouri, which is near KansasCity, and I've been here for
about six years and I pastoredin Minneapolis for five years
prior to that, and we'reindependent Baptists, so we're
not charismatics or into theWord of Faith or any of that
(01:34):
charismatic stuff, but I'mfamiliar with it through
studying it and preaching aboutit.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Okay, well, let's jump into it.
We're going to talk about Wordof Faith, or, as some people say
, who are against it, blab itand grab it, name it and claim
it prosperity, gospel, all thosethings are rolled in the words
of affirmation, I think, oraffirmation statements, maybe
it's called.
(01:59):
There's laws of attraction, allthese buzzwords that have
seeped into Christianity andthey are starting to lead people
astray.
So you said that you haven'thad too much experience with
this.
I know I have.
Up until probably a little afterCOVID started, I was still into
(02:22):
this.
I listened to Joyce Meyer.
It started, I was still intothis.
I listened to Joyce Meyer.
I didn't really listen to JoelOsteen or Stephen Furtick.
They both just kind of rubbedme wrong from the very beginning
.
Anyways, their style andthere's something off about them
.
But I was really drawn to JoyceMeyer, who was my stepdad, who
(02:43):
was the one who kept trying tobe the voice of reason, trying
to tell me there's something offabout her.
It's not right.
I just wasn't listening.
I was a total Joyce Meyer.
I don't even know what you callit apologist, I guess until I
started listening to DoreenVirtue and some other people who
were talking about how this isnew age.
Then my eyes were open, thescales came off and my stepdad's
(03:07):
like ah, you finally get it.
So what have you studied aboutthis and what is your opinion
about it?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, I sort of stumbled into it by accident.
I had heard about the Word ofFaith movement years ago in
sermons from my pastor.
He basically just touched on itand I thought it was mostly
just about the prosperity gospeland the name it and claim it
and if you believe you'll berich, you will.
Or if you have enough faiththat you'll be wealthy, you will
.
But I didn't realize the extentto which the Word of Faith
(03:43):
thing went and so I didn'treally have any reason to look
into it.
And then here a couple of yearsago, one of the regular
attendees of our church asked meif I would review this book.
He wanted to share it withother people in the church, but
he wanted me to look over itfirst and just make sure it was
okay.
And so I said yeah, sure, andasked him what the book was.
And he said it's by CharlesCapps and it's called the Tongue
(04:06):
A Creative Force.
And so I thought I'll suspendmy doubt right now, because just
the title of a book called theTongue A Creative Force just
sounded like it couldn'tpossibly be a good book to me,
unless the title was completelymisleading.
And then I thought, okay, I'llread it and just see what it's
about.
Maybe I've totally misjudgedjudging a book by its cover, its
(04:28):
title.
So I got the book and I didn'tget past the first sentence in
the book which essentially saidGod created the universe by the
power of his words.
And he's got power in his words, and so do you and you can do
the same thing, essentially.
And I'm just like what in theworld, why would he recommend
this book to me or want anybodyelse to read it?
And I thought I need to have atalk with him.
(04:50):
But I'll read through the wholebook first and then we'll talk
about it.
And so I'm reading further andfurther and I didn't quite get
through the book yet.
And then I get an email fromhim and he's like oh, I'm sorry,
I gave you the wrong book.
From him and he's like oh, I'msorry, I gave you the wrong book
.
And he was thinking of someother title and wasn't referring
to this book at all.
And I kind of breathed a sighof relief because I thought, boy
, if you believe this stuff, wedefinitely need to have a talk.
(05:12):
So anyway, by reading that bookI learned what the Word of
Faith movement's all about,because Charles Capps was one of
the big names in this, he andKenneth Copeland are probably
the two biggest names.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
I've heard of Kenneth Copeland, but I've never heard
of the other one before.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I hadn't heard of Capps either.
This book had been at least thecopy I have.
It's sold 900,000 copies, soit's quite popular.
And so what I learned in thisbook was that the idea is that
we have power in our words andthey twist a few scriptures.
(05:48):
There's one in Markspecifically.
I can read it here.
It's in Mark 11, 22, and down afew verses.
And Jesus, answering, said untothem this is to the apostles
have faith in God, for verily Isay unto you that whosoever
shall say unto this mountain, bethou removed and be thou cast
(06:08):
into the sea, and shall notdoubt in his heart but shall
believe that those things whichhe sayeth shall come to pass, he
shall have whatsoever he sayeth.
Therefore, I say unto youwhatsoever things you desire
when you pray, believe that youreceive them and you shall have
them.
And there are other parallelverses and there's a few other
verses like that in the Bible.
(06:28):
And so they take that verse andthey say that therefore, you
just whatever you want, you justsay it, you believe that you
have it and you'll have whateveryou want.
And so Capps would say that ifyou so, for instance if you're
sick, if you have a cold or aflu or something.
And he says if you feel youhave symptoms of the flu, and
(06:50):
you say and this is whateverybody does he says and he's
right the first thing you do istell somebody I think I'm
catching the flu or I think Ihave the flu.
Devil, because the devil'strying to put this flu on you.
And then you have just said Ihave the flu.
So you have affirmed what thedevil is trying to give you and
you've basically accepted it andnow you have the flu.
(07:11):
You weren't sick before, youjust thought you were, but now
you're going to be sick becauseyou've professed faith in what
the devil is trying to give you.
What you should do, according toCapps, according to Copeland
and guys like this, is youshould say I am not sick, I may
feel like I'm sick, I am notsick, I am well in the name of
Jesus, and believe what you saidand there's power in your words
and you won't be sick.
(07:32):
And this would be if, maybe ifyou've lost your job, the same
kind of thing.
Instead of going to God andsaying I've lost my job and now
I don't have money to pay themortgage, nope, you've just
professed faith in the devil.
He's the one that's trying toimpoverish you.
What you should say is I am notpoor, I am wealthy, I am rich.
In the name of Jesus, andyou'll have whatever you say.
(07:54):
And so when I realized that thisis what he's talking about,
then I thought, wow, this isextremely dangerous because for
one thing, it's just flat outnot true.
This is a total twisting ofwhat Jesus was talking about.
For one thing.
For two, jesus specifically Idon't know I can get into this
now or later, but Jesus wasspeaking to the apostles, and
(08:16):
then they did have thissupernatural, special gift of
faith that if they I literallybelieve that if they would have
had faith and said to a mountain, remove hence and be cast into
the sea, that it would havehappened.
I don't think Jesus wasspeaking with hyperbole or
exaggerating.
They, as the apostles, had thatgift of faith.
(08:37):
Paul says, though I had faiththat I could move mountains in 1
Corinthians 13.
In 1 Corinthians 12, as wetalked about in the last episode
that we did together on thespiritual gifts, the sign gifts,
the miraculous gifts, in thatpassage there in 1 Corinthians
12, probably 8 through 11 orsomething like that several
(08:59):
gifts are listed there that aremiraculous in nature Knowledge,
the gift of knowledge, the giftof wisdom, the working of
miracles, the gift of faith.
It says tongues, interpretationof tongues, healing all those
are miraculous gifts and they'reall listed there together.
And I think a lot of timespeople, when they see wisdom,
knowledge and faith, they thinkthat that's referring to normal
(09:22):
wisdom, knowledge and faith andfaith.
They think that that'sreferring to normal wisdom,
knowledge and faith, but in thatit's grouped together with
those supernatural gifts.
It's a supernatural gift ofknowledge, wisdom and faith that
the apostles had.
The apostles could know thingsthrough revelation, through
direct revelation, that wewouldn't be able to know just
through natural means.
And it's the same with thisgift of faith.
They had that kind of faiththat they could have moved
(09:44):
mountains, they could have casta tree into the sea right, they
could have done the things thatJesus said.
And as we looked at last time,those gifts have passed away.
They've passed out of existenceby the end of the first century
and so that gift is not givento us today.
And furthermore, the idea ofsaying I'm not sick.
(10:05):
Jesus never taught anythinglike that.
Paul told Timothy to have alittle wine for their stomach's
sake and that often infirmities.
He didn't tell Timothy, youjust say I don't have a stomach
ache, I am well in the name ofJesus.
He said have a little wine.
Paul went to the Lord threetimes that the thorn in the
flesh would depart from him.
(10:25):
He didn't go and say I have nothorn in the flesh, I am well in
the name of Jesus.
He asked God to take away thethorn in the flesh.
He acknowledged he had a thornin the flesh and asked God to
take it away.
So this whole idea of the wordof faith is just nonsense, this
saying what you want and it willhappen.
And furthermore, it's a, it's a, I don't want to say it.
(10:48):
It's a misuse of language.
For one thing, because if whatyou mean when you say I am well,
if you really mean I believeI'm going to be well, but you
say I am well, then you're notusing language correctly.
Because if you are in fact sickand you say I am well and you
mean I am going to be well, well, then you don't understand verb
(11:08):
tenses right.
So you've misused language forone thing.
For two, it also turns a personinto either a liar or a lunatic
, because if you are in factsick and you say I am.
Well, I am not sick.
There's two possibilitiesEither you're sick and you say
you're not sick, which is bydefinition a lie, so you're
(11:28):
lying.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Denial too.
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Or you're crazy because you are in fact sick but
you don't think you're sick andyou say you're not sick when
you in fact are sick andtherefore you are divorced from
reality.
So you don't understand, you'reout of your mind.
So there's just so many thingsthat are wrong with this idea,
but anyway.
So I read that book, justgetting back to that, and it was
providential, I would say,because we had a person in our
(12:00):
church that had been involved inthis Word of Faith movement and
at the time when he joined Ididn't really know what he had
been involved in this word offaith movement and I didn't.
At the time when he joined, Ididn't really know what he'd
been involved in in the past, orI thought he kind of you know
that was in the past.
Well then, as time goes on, hewas using language that was just
a little odd to me.
He kept talking about how ourconfession is important and I
(12:21):
thought he's using the word in abiblical context context
because the Bible uses the wordconfession or profession and
basically interchangeably torefer to you, are, you are
declaring certain things likeyour faith, your, your
confession of your faith wouldbe declaring it before men,
telling men what you believe, orconfessing your sins to God,
telling God your sins, askingfor forgiveness, things like
(12:43):
that.
And so when he's using he'ssaying, your confession is
important, and I'm thinking,well, yeah, yeah, it is
important.
But it didn't make sense in thecontext in which he was saying
it to me, because I didn'tunderstand the terminology.
But what he was referring to isthis thing called positive
confession and that is part andparcel with the word of faith.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
I was very heavy into that, close to the end of me
being involved in this.
In general, I was doing a lotof the no, don't say you're sick
.
I would hound my husband if hewas looking like he was going to
say he's sick.
I was like, no, don't say it,don't speak it, and then it
won't happen.
I don't know why it neverclicked before.
(13:26):
That that's not how it works.
You can think it and you couldstill get sick.
What are they going to sayabout that?
Your mind is saying it.
I never understood how I gotinto that and didn't see a
problem with it.
It puts you in bondage.
Basically is what it does.
We're supposed to be set freein Christ when we accept him as
(13:49):
our savior.
That's not freedom.
To constantly be living thatway, that, no, I can't say this
because then this is gonnahappen, or I can't do that
because this is gonna happen.
That's not freedom.
That's being put back indifferent chains.
You have just put yourself in anew bondage.
Yeah, I was definitely into thedeclaring things, positive
(14:13):
statements.
You can't be negative, don't benegative.
I tell my kids stop being sonegative, be positive, and
there's a time for that.
Yes, there's always a time tobe positive.
You don't have to be allnegative, doom and gloom.
There's always a time to bepositive.
You don't have to be allnegative, doom and gloom.
You don't have to be uberpositive.
There's a time for both, andthe Bible clearly tells us that
(14:33):
we are going to suffer.
So either he's a liar orwhoever's telling us we're not
meant to suffer and we're meantto be rich is a liar.
Rich is a liar.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Well, if you think about it, the prosperity gospel
is essentially telling peoplethat if you have faith you're
not going to be poor.
And if you are poor or ifyou're having financial problems
, then it's because you don'thave faith.
And yet that is not ascriptural position.
The Bible says blessed are thepoor in spirit.
(15:04):
If you have a poor man, comeinto your assembly, don't say
boy, there's a man who has nofaith.
That's not what Jesus or Jamessaid, that it's not a shame to
be poor.
If you're poor for the wrongreasons, if you're poor because
you're stupid and you make dumbdecisions and waste your money
on stuff, that's one thing.
But if your lot in life is tonot have very much materially,
there's nothing wrong with that.
Jesus Christ himself had.
(15:25):
He said the son of man hath notwhere to lay his head.
So Jesus didn't have his ownhouse.
Jesus wasn't.
He says he became poor for oursakes.
So there's nothing wrong withbeing poor.
And you have example of bothrich and poor believers in the
church, both Old and NewTestament.
Lazarus and the rich man right.
The rich man went to hell andLazarus the rich man's dogs were
(15:48):
licking the sores on him and hewas eating the crumbs that fell
from his table.
That man is a righteous man inheaven, right?
So your standing in this worlddoes not determine the lack of
the amount of faith you have ordon't have.
So that's a malignment of whatthe scripture teaches.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
It's very toxic.
It can send someone away fromJesus Christ because they, if
they don't get healthy, if theydon't get wealthy, they must not
have had enough faith.
So they need to figure out howdo I get more faith?
And a lot of them say, oh, sowmore seed, which is their code
for give us more money, orwhatever they say pray more, do
(16:31):
this more.
What does more mean?
Nobody ever knows, nobody evertells you this is it, this is
where you will arrive and thisis when it will happen.
They don't tell you thatbecause they don't know, because
they don't have a way.
They're just making money offof all these desperate people
who want to have a truerelationship with Jesus, want to
(16:51):
be free, want health and wealth.
We all want to take care of ourfamilies, we all want to stay
healthy, but this is not ourhome and we aren't meant to be
here forever.
When it's our time, it's ourtime, and if we're not meant to
have wealth, if the Bible talksabout how, if you're not
faithful with the little, howcan you be faithful with much?
Why is he going to make a wholebunch of people rich when you
(17:13):
clearly aren't making rightchoices with what you have.
They aren't sharing the gospeland because of that there's a
whole bunch of people in newlegalistic bondage and it drives
people away from God.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
It's devastating.
The way that the devil usuallyoperates is he'll mix a little
bit of truth in with a lot oflie, and so in almost any false
system, false doctrine, falsereligion, there's always some
truth in them.
And in the Word of Faithmovement there is some truth in
that.
In the prosperity gospelthere's some truth.
(17:51):
The Bible does teach inProverbs 3, 9, and 10, honor the
Lord with thy substance andwith the first fruit of all that
increase, so shall thy barns befilled with plenty and thy
presses shall burst out with newwine.
And that is true.
I've experienced it in my lifeand I've seen lots of other
people experience it.
When people give to the Lord,he does, he provides for them,
(18:12):
he blesses them.
But it's not a one-to-one thing, it's not something.
Oh, I'm just going to give thisamount and I know I'm going to
get more back.
But so anyway, there is anelement of truth to what they're
saying, but it's taken and it'stwisted and it's used for their
own benefit.
They're like the Pharisees thatdevour widows' houses and
they've deceived unknowingpeople, ignorant people that
(18:36):
don't know the scripture, andturn them into headless
followers, basically, and thenthey just do whatever they're
told and then they end up beingsold to Billy Goods.
It's just, it's terribly sad.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
What do you know about laws of attraction?
It's, it's um, those in theword of faith and prosperity.
Gospel wouldn't specificallytalk about this, but they're
positive affirmations andpositivity.
You can't be negative.
Don't speak this.
All that stuff is laws ofattraction, which is a new age
(19:08):
practice.
Have you learned anything aboutit and, if so, what are your
thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
I don't know.
I'm not familiar with the lawsof attraction.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Okay, so I can fill you in, but I want to hear your
opinion on the idea.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, I mean as far as the positivity thing, again,
if you go back to the scripture,read through the Psalms.
How many of the Psalms is Davidmostly David, but other
psalmists too lamenting, cryingout to God about the terrible
affliction they're in, howthey're being persecuted,
praying to be delivered fromtheir enemies?
Or Jeremiah?
(19:42):
Look at Jeremiah inLamentations where he says the
Lord was like a bear unto himand he was just waiting to catch
him and he had a false idea ofGod.
But he clearly was not.
I mean, the book is calledLamentations for a reason.
He was lamenting the horribledestruction of Jerusalem and
this is inspired scripture,right?
(20:02):
So you can't say nobody wouldsay that the book of
Lamentations is positivity right.
Obviously not, and he wasspeaking under writing, under
the inspiration of God, and youjust look back through, look
through the Bible, and just allthe hardship that Paul endured
and how he was beaten andshipwrecked and imprisoned,
right, I mean, is thatpositivity?
Right?
(20:23):
I mean, he's relaying whathappened to him and it was true,
but he wasn't being positivenecessarily as these people
would have us to be.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Who doesn't love free ?
I know I do.
That's why I created a freeseven-day devotional for those
who want to go deeper with God.
It's a short devotional full ofencouragement, guidance and
impactful Bible verses relatedto everyday struggles we all go
through.
I know you will love thisdevotional as much as I enjoyed
(20:59):
writing it and since it'sdigital, you can do it anywhere,
anytime, perfect for the personalways on the go.
Get the free devotional whenyou sign up for my mailing list.
The link is in the show notes.
So laws of attraction is prettymuch it sounds like the idea of
karma you give what you get.
(21:20):
So if you speak something outinto the world, it better be
something positive.
Otherwise you're going to getwhat you spoke out and if it's
negative, that's going to comeback on you.
So you have to work really hardto choose what you say, how you
say it.
Vision boards are very big.
With this idea, you put avision board up with a whole
(21:42):
bunch of different pictures ofwhat you want out of life.
Maybe it's a future spouse,maybe it's a home, a job, and
you just say these mantras of Iam, this, I am that I can do
this.
It's very self-centered, iswhat it is and it is a new age
practice that has seeped intothe word of faith.
(22:03):
The positive affirmations, thename it and claim it prosperity,
gospel, all those things justsmack.
They're all together now and Igot sucked into some of this,
never did the vision board thingbecause I already had what I
wanted.
I always wanted to be astay-at-home mom and praise the
Lord through every difficultcircumstance I've been in,
(22:26):
through all three of mymarriages, god was still
faithful and he allowed me to dothat.
I don't even know how only Godthat I was able to, especially
now in today's economy, I'm ableto still be one.
That's all I ever wanted to bewas a stay-at-home mom and a
writer, which I am, and now apodcaster.
So I've got what I wanted.
(22:51):
I didn't need to vision boardanything, but I did do a lot of
the other stuff.
The positive affirmations I amthis.
I am that.
I had a hard time believing itbecause I couldn't get past the
first one.
I am a child of God.
I knew I am child of God.
I know these things headwise,but I never believed it in my
heart.
I have low self-esteem that I'mstill kind of working on in
(23:13):
certain areas.
But if you can't believe it inyour heart, then it's probably
not helpful to say those thingsanyways, because then at that
point you're just saying amantra.
So I did all that, I triedreally hard to say positive
things, told my whole familyshush, shush, don't say anything
negative.
If my parents were sayingsomething negative I'd shut them
(23:36):
down.
And sometimes you shut peopledown just because you don't want
to hear negative.
You don't need to hear negativeAgain.
There's a time and a placewhere maybe you need to hear it.
My stepdad trying to tell me thedangers of listening to Joyce
Meyer.
To me it was like oh, you'retrying to bring my, you're
harshing my mellow or whateveryou want to call it.
(23:56):
You're bringing me down.
Man, don't do that.
But that's not what he wasdoing.
He was trying to tell me whydon't you take a deeper look at
who you're following?
Maybe there's something wrongand because it came from family,
maybe my I'm not going tolisten to my parent, kind of
thing just turned me off.
Eventually I figured it out onmy own.
But it is a dangerous idea lawsof attraction that you're going
(24:20):
to attract these things to youif you do these things.
That is not how it works.
God is not a genie.
We can't make him do what wewant.
We can't manifest things.
That's another thing that'sreally big.
I've heard it in a lot ofdifferent Christian circles too.
They'll say the word, and Icringe now when I hear that,
(24:42):
because it's a complete new ageterm and it's definitely big
with the laws of attraction andall this word of faith you can
manifest.
It goes back to what you read inthat very first paragraph of
that book, that our words arepowerful.
Jesus or God spoke the worldinto existence, and we have that
power too.
No, we do not.
Or God spoke the world intoexistence and we have that power
to.
No, we do not.
If we did, then where is mybundles of money that I used to
(25:08):
say we were going to have?
Where is my child, who is stilla prodigal child right now,
going through some stuff?
Why is she no longer?
Why is she not no longer aprodigal?
I guess that makes sense.
It's like these things that Ispoke into existence.
I would go to the devil and sayyou can't have my children, they
belong to Jesus, telling himoff like he's standing there and
(25:28):
I'm having a go at him and he'sprobably just sitting there
laughing at me, but I feel superpowerful because I'm telling
him like it is and that he can'tdo this in the name of Jesus.
But it wasn't working.
It didn't work.
He still has one of my childrenand I still have a health issue
that gets me to three, fourtimes a year that affects my
(25:56):
nerves because of somethingstupid I did when I was younger.
He may have healed it whereit's not contagious when I get
one of those issues flare ups,but I still have it.
He may have healed part of it,but he didn't heal all of it.
So does that mean my faithwasn't good enough?
I stopped for a while speakingthat I wasn't sick, but I think
I got sick the most during thosetimes.
I don't do that anymore and Ihaven't really been sick.
(26:20):
I mean winter's here soon, sowho knows, we'll see but I've
also been eating better, sothat's one thing, but it's just.
This is very toxic.
It messes with faith, it messeswith your brain waves, it
messes with your heart and I donot like it at all.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah, I mean it's absolutely destructive to faith
because it sets you up for majordisappointment If you think
that as a believer, if you justbelieve, everything's going to
be fine, because the Bible isfull of examples of people that
were believers and bad thingshappened to them.
I mean look at.
John the Baptist.
John the Baptist was thegreatest prophet that ever lived
(27:00):
.
According to Jesus, he didnothing wrong.
He rebuked the king for hisadultery and his wickedness and
because of some foolish vow theking made, john ended up getting
his head cut off.
For no, he didn't do anythingwrong, right?
So I mean, if all you have todo is have faith, are we saying
that John didn't have faithBecause obviously he got his
head cut off?
Stephen was stoned, right?
(27:21):
Stephen didn't do anythingwrong.
Stephen defended the truth andhe was stoned for it.
Did Stephen not have faith?
Of course he did.
Jesus ended up dying on a cross.
Is it because he didn't havefaith?
Of course he had faith, right?
So I mean, it's just nonsenseto say that if you are faithful,
that everything's going to gowell for you.
It's just simply not true.
To set somebody up for that isto set them up for a crisis of
(27:46):
faith when they've done what youtold them to and things have
not turned out well.
And then they think well, itmust have been me, because
Kenneth Copeland obviously musthave a lot of faith.
He's rich, he's wealthy, he'sdoing well, so it's just me.
Apparently, I didn't dosomething right, and then people
could end up losing their faithaltogether, which is terrible.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, it feeds on emotions, feelings, the heart of
somebody.
I believe a lot of the peoplewho are sucked into this are
just hungry for truth, hungryfor the presence of God, hungry
for a close relationship withthem.
I know I was.
And because you get all thefeels with it when things go
(28:29):
your way or when they tell you areally powerful quote, unquote
sermon that speaks to where youare because they know how to
speak to you and it's all aboutyou and you may or may not have
heard any Bible verses and youprobably didn't have your Bible
open to check and see if theywere even said correctly you get
(28:52):
that emotional high.
You get that I am powerfulfeeling.
I am the child of God, I can dothis.
You start thinking it, youstart believing it, because your
whole heart just wants to bewhat God has called you to be.
And they're telling you whatGod has called you to be.
And they're telling you whatGod has called you to be.
And you're believing it andyou're feeling it.
(29:13):
And how can it be wrong withyour feelings?
Because you feel God's HolySpirit is working in you right
now and then you go and dosomething with that and maybe it
works out for you.
Satan's going to do what he'sgoing to do, and sometimes
that's going to be giving youwhat you want.
He's going to make it seem likeit's working.
(29:35):
If he didn't do that, thenpeople wouldn't be sucked into
these practices.
You don't get sucked into theoccult if it doesn't work.
If you're trying to channelyour dead grandparents and you
go to somebody who can't do it,that's not going to make you
want to go back, because clearlythey're a charlatan.
You can't trust them.
(29:55):
Why are you going to continuedown that road?
You don't use a Ouija board.
You don't use word of faith ifthese things don't work.
You use these practices becauseat some point they have done
what they are meant to do.
That's how you get drawn in.
That's how you get sucked in.
That's how anyone gets suckedinto anything they like doing,
(30:17):
over and over and over again,because at some point it did
what it was meant to do.
Satan's crafty.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Human pride too, because you end up having people
think that the in themselveswhich is pride, and yet the
(30:49):
Bible says the opposite, thatGod resisteth the proud, but he
giveth grace to the humble, andthat we ought to have a low
opinion of ourselves, not a highopinion of ourselves.
And furthermore, it's puttingconfidence in man.
I mean the man in this casewould be yourself.
And the Bible says cursed is hewhich trusteth in man.
Because really, what you'redoing is you're trusting in your
faith.
You're, instead of trusting inGod's promises, you're trusting
(31:15):
in what you have done or whatyou have said, and believing
that the power is in you andyou've essentially turned
yourself into God.
Because God it says in Romans 4, 17, that he calleth those
things which be not as thoughthey were.
God said and in the context he'stalking about, when God said to
Abraham I have made thee afather of many nations, when
Abraham had no children.
(31:35):
Yet God can do that, God cansay God can misuse language, if
you will, in the example that Iused earlier, where God can say
I have made thee a father ofmany nations, when he's not
actually a father of manynations yet, Because God has
number one.
God sees the end from thebeginning, and God has the power
(31:57):
to enforce whatever his wordsays.
So if God says he's going to dosomething, it's going to be
done, period, because he hasinfinite power to accomplish
that.
We don't, because he hasinfinite power to accomplish
that, we don't.
But if you think that you do,if you teach somebody that if
they say something that they'regoing to have what they say,
(32:18):
you've essentially given themgodlike power that they too can
call things which be not asthough they were, and that's
just not true.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Yeah, apparently, joyce Meyer and Stephen Furtick,
I believe, have both said we'rekind of little gods, which I
think I stopped listening to herbefore.
Who knows, maybe she said itbefore.
I mean, when you're deep inthis, I don't think you realize
how many problems there reallyare with it until you are no
(32:45):
longer in it.
So I'm now seeing certainthings and I'm like, oh wow, how
did I not notice that before?
Or why didn't?
I think that that sounded wonky.
I had some discernment.
I knew that there was somethingoff about Stephen Furtick.
I knew there was something offabout Joel Osteen, kenneth
(33:06):
Copeland there's just otherpeople where I was like I don't
really want to listen to themanymore.
Or I listened to certain peoplefor a little bit Robert Morris,
or the one who was just fromGateway Church.
I used to listen to him for awhile and then at some point,
long before the bombshell cameout about him, I had stopped
(33:26):
listening to him because I waslike I was cleaning house God
was cleaning my house out of thethings that I had trusted in
and believed in, that were wordof faith and all these things,
and he was one of them that went, and I'm glad because that
those kinds of things shake yourfaith too.
When somebody you trusted, youlistened to all their teachings
(33:47):
and then, boom, somethinghappened.
You're like whoa, that's goingto mess with your faith too.
But you don't know the depth ofhow serious these things are
until you're out of it.
I've started believing thatthat's true, because if you talk
to somebody who's into the wordof faith and prosperity gospel,
(34:09):
they don't really want to hearwhat you have to say.
If you're trying to shut themdown from being positive,
depending on who they are, ifyou have a close relationship
with them, maybe they'll listento what you have to say.
But you have to come at itgingerly.
You can't just blurt out youropinion, but a lot of times they
don't want to hear it becausethey view what you have to say
(34:31):
as negativity.
Like I said with my stepdad, hewas trying to tell me about
Joyce Meyer and I didn't want tohear it.
I was like you just don't likeher because she's a woman
preacher and all.
I don't believe in womenpreachers anymore.
I don't think they should bedoing that.
But I was justifying all thesedifferent things and that's what
you do when you are in.
This is you justify, you bendover backwards trying to make it
(34:54):
make sense Because somewhereinside of you I think you
realize it doesn't make sense.
Because I feel like, if youtruly have a good handle on your
position, you're okay to talkto somebody who doesn't agree
with you.
For believers trying to sharethe gospel, you should be
willing to have a conversationwith someone who doesn't agree
with you and you should be ableto be gracious about it, because
(35:16):
what you believe is true andyou don't need to bend over
backwards, coming up withwhatever you have your proof.
If you don't have your proof,perhaps you should take a better
look at what you're trying todefend and see why you're so
hostile to hearing a differingopinion.
And that's kind of what startedgetting me away from Joyce
(35:37):
Meyer is.
Every single time I startedlistening to her, I kept hearing
his voice and I kept hearingother people who may have said
something about her.
And then all the podcasts I waslistening to it started coming
in and I started receiving itrather than pushing it away and
saying, oh no, whatever, don'ttake away my elevation music or
whatever.
It gives me the feels, allthese different things I allowed
(35:59):
God to do whatever he wastrying to do in me and I allowed
him to have that chance tobreak me free from the false
doctrines that I was following.
I pray that the listeners willalso have that heart posture of
allowing someone to speak withlove into your heart and share
the honest truth.
(36:20):
I mean, I am more than willingto bet Chad that you, if someone
who's listening wanted tocontact you and talk further
about this, you would be open tohaving a conversation, right?
Oh sure, sure, I would be opento it.
There's people who are willingto have conversations.
If you have more questionsabout this, don't just shut us
(36:41):
off because you don't like whatwe're saying.
There's truth to what we'resaying.
Listen to it.
The Holy Spirit will guide youand that's what you need to
listen to is the Holy Spirit,because there's a lot of people
out there who are trying todeceive.
There's some meaning.
There's people out there whomean well within these false
(37:02):
practices, but then there's alot of people who don't, and you
have to be careful and you haveto realize who truly loves you.
They're going to tell you thetruth at the expense of your
friendship, your family,whatever it is.
They're going to tell you thetruth and if they're willing to
do that sacrifice, perhaps youshould listen yeah, it's like
(37:23):
david said let the righteoussmite me, it should be a
kindness.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Let him reprove me, it should be an excellent oil
which shall not break my head.
So, yeah, the loving thing todo is to correct somebody when
they're wrong, instead ofallowing them to go on a
self-destructive path I thinkabout.
I was just thinking about thisas you were talking about how it
(37:48):
can put people in such bondage.
I knew a Word of Faith preacherhere in town.
I didn't know him really wellbut I had met him a couple of
times and at the time I didn'tknow much about the Word of
Faith.
Well, then he ended up having abad heart attack and they got
him to the hospital in time tokeep him alive and then I think
he had a stroke and ended upbeing incapacitated and lived
(38:11):
that way for, I think, a coupleof years.
It was really sad.
And another pastor friend ofmine here in town, I would ask
him about him once in a whileand he said, yeah, it's really
hard to get any information outof his wife or family because
he's in this word of faith thingand at the time I didn't know
why would that matter?
And but what I realized is, ifyou ask his wife, say how's
brother Mike doing?
(38:31):
Well, she can't say well, he'snot doing well, yeah, he's
basically incapacitated, hecan't talk or he can't walk or
whatever, and yeah, thingsaren't looking very well.
She either has to say nothingor say, oh Mike is well, mike's
doing great in the name of Jesus, he's healed, or whatever
nonsense which isn't even true.
And so you can't even have aconversation with somebody.
(38:55):
You can't be honest aboutanything, because if you're not
positive then you're going toinvite the curse upon yourself.
You think so.
You have to be positive and youhave to basically pretend
things are not the way theyreally are, and it's just a
terrible bondage to be in.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
It's heartbreaking and I'm still dealing with
residuals from it.
There's still times where Idon't want to say something
because I'm afraid it mighthappen, and I have to catch
myself and say, no, I'm notgoing to live in fear.
If I say it and it happens,it's probably not because I said
it.
It's probably because it wasmeant to happen anyways.
(39:32):
And if it does happen and ithad something to do with what I
said, whatever, I can't doanything at that point.
It already happened and Ialready said it.
What are you going to do?
So I've started trying to trainmy brain that I can't be afraid
because God is in control,whether good things or bad
things happen, and I trust thathe loves me through it, and it's
(39:54):
still something I'm processingthrough.
I'm thankful that it didn'tlast too long with my family, to
the point where my kids arealready trained in it.
They aren't, and my husband'sstill kind of a new believer.
He's only been a believer for10 plus years and I beat myself
up a lot because I've beenleading him down different paths
(40:16):
based off of how I grew up,whether my parents were
intentional about how theyraised me or not, and the things
that I learned as a child, as ayoung adult, the word of faith,
all these different things.
I was trying to suck him intothose things too.
Him and I are learning togethernow what is true, what isn't
(40:36):
true.
Never a dull moment in our house.
One minute he was like well, Ithought you believed in that.
I was like that was a few yearsago.
Now I've done more study and Idon't believe it anymore.
He's like okay, so it's alwaysa journey.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
The justice as the shining light that shineth more
and more into the perfect day.
That's the Christian life weshould be as we go along finding
more and more truth andrejecting more and more error.
So that's just how it goes.
We don't learn it all up front,all at the same time.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Yeah, I agree.
Well, thank you so much, chad,for coming on and talking to me
today about this.
It's definitely one of thebiggest movements in
Christianity and it's one of themain things that really needs
to go.
Like yesterday, it needs to go.
It's not helping Christians atall.
If anything, I feel like it'shurting it.
(41:31):
It's crippling us from beingable to move forward in what God
really has for us, because weare so stuck in this world and
feeling that we need to becomfortable here rather than
remembering our home is not here, it's in heaven.
We can't store up treasureshere.
We can't expect good thingshere.
(41:53):
This world is broken and wejust have to accept that and
trust that God is in control.
We are not.
We don't have the same powersthat God has.
We can't speak things intoexistence, or I would have a
maid right now cleaning my house, so I don't have to.
(42:14):
I would be able to go visitRussia, something I've always
wanted to do.
There's so many things thathaven't happened for me that I
tried to speak into existence.
They never happen.
You can't manifest these things.
You may think you can andremember everyone listening.
If it does come to pass, thatdoes not necessarily mean that
(42:34):
what you're doing works.
It just means perhaps youshould look at it harder and
figure out was this God or wasthis Satan trying to lure me
into something, into a trap?
Because he doesn't have thesame powers as God, but he does
have some powers over this worldand he is trying to trip up
(42:54):
people, and the more Christianshe can trip up, the better for
him, because then we look likefools to the world and then why
would they want to be Christians?
I feel like he enjoys that most, as opposed to the people who
just flat out say I don'tbelieve in anything, I don't
believe in God.
I think he gets more gigglesout of tripping us up because we
(43:17):
claim Jesus and then we justruined our witness.
When we get sucked into badthings or it comes out that we
did something wrong, and yeah.
So just be careful, read yourBible, stay close to God, be
open to criticism of the thingsyou're doing from people who
(43:38):
love you and who you can tellare risking something from it,
because that could be God tryingto get your attention.
Well, thank you again, chad,for coming on.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, you're welcome, I've enjoyed it.
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