February 26, 2025 • 36 mins
Desiree Taylor returns to share her powerful personal journey from the allure of prosperity gospel and word of faith movements to a deeper, more meaningful connection with Jesus. Desiree's experiences, particularly her hearing loss, show how God can use life's challenges to build resilience and open doors for sharing one's faith.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What do you think of when you hear these words?
Manifesting affirmationstatements, health and wealth?
If you said the reasons I nolonger follow Christ false
doctrines and new age stuff, orways to deepen my faith then you
might know which subject myreturning guest, desiree Taylor,
(00:20):
and myself will be discussingtoday.
Desiree appeared on my podcasta few months ago Season 3,
episode 7, sharing her story ofcoming out of legalism.
Part of her impactful storyinvolves this toxic doctrine.
What doctrine are we talkingabout?
Stay tuned to find out Beforethe episode starts.
(00:53):
Make sure you follow the showso you never miss another
episode.
Well, hello again, desiree.
I'm so excited to talk to youabout today's topic.
But before we start doing that,why don't you share with us who
you are?
For those who aren't familiarwith your episode from season
three, which was about legalismand breaking free from that,
they should check that episodeout, because it was very
powerful and encouraging, and sowas your book.
(01:15):
Go ahead and tell us a littleabout yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Well, thank you for having me on again.
My name is Desiree Taylor.
I am a first time author.
I just wrote my first book andpublished it in August.
It's called Created to Relate,Living Beyond Religion, talking
about breaking out of thosereligious and legalistic
mindsets into that freedom ofthe relationship with Jesus.
I've been married to my husbandfor 28 years.
(01:38):
I have two grown boys that are30 and 25, and I'm hoping to
write more books.
So that's really what I doright now and I'm very involved
in ministry with the youngadults at church.
Your book- was beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
It did not take me that long to read it because I
could relate to it, so the titleis very fitting for the book,
and your book actually deals alot with the subject we're going
to talk about today, which isword of faith, prosperity,
gospel and laws of attraction.
(02:12):
So you have had some experiencewith it, as have I and let's
discuss this topic.
So you want to share some ofyour experiences good, bad, ugly
, whatever they are.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, I think one of the biggest experiences for me
was because I am deaf and I havecochlear implants and my oldest
son he would pray for healingall the time for me when he was
younger and we were praying forthat because of the prosperity,
(02:48):
gospel influence and the word offaith.
So as we prayed about this andnothing happened, people kept
saying to me well, you probablydon't have enough faith.
This was said to me over andover again and it was very
painful for me because I knew inmy heart I believed that God
could do this.
And my son's praying, he'slooking, he's hearing those
things too.
He's looking and notunderstanding why God's not
healing me.
And I mean I did everything.
(03:08):
I went all the way to BennyHinn for one of his things to.
I think it was to prove tomyself that I had the faith.
And then, when nothing happened, then it was almost.
It was so devastating to mebecause I'm like maybe there is
something wrong with me that Idon't have enough faith for God
to do this, and it took me along time to find out what a lie
(03:29):
that was.
And I feel like there's a lotof people in that.
They feel like if things aren'thappening the way they think it
should, that they just don'thave enough faith.
I just talked to another ladythe other day who was slowly
going into this, so I'm lookingforward to having that
conversation with her toencourage her in that.
But as I sit now and I watcheverything that God has done
(03:51):
through my hearing loss, throughthe deafness, through my
cochlear implant experience Ihave a beautiful relationship
with my audiologist.
I've been able to share Jesuswith different people along the
way.
It's taught me suchperseverance and I'm much
stronger as a person but also asa child of God.
It's caused me to rely on himmore and to have a deeper trust
(04:12):
in him and I think sometimes hejust allows things for the
reason he does.
He's used my hearing loss.
He's used my cochlear implantprocess to help other people.
He says in his word that hecomforts us in those things to
comfort other people.
Sometimes he has a higherpurpose in what he's doing, even
if we don't understand, and Ithink the word of faith
personalizes it almost like thereligious, legalistic stuff does
(04:35):
, and makes it there's somethingwrong with you and that was a
really difficult experience forme and it was painful.
God's used it.
He doesn't waste a thing, butit was a painful process.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, and I have some thoughts on what you said,
because I understand and I canhear the pain when you're
sharing it.
But before we do that, I dowant to tell those who may not
be familiar with what thesepractices are, just give an
overview of what they are.
So word of faith and prosperitygospel kind of go hand in hand,
(05:09):
and law of attraction goes inwith it too.
But these are a belief within,I guess you could say, the
Christian faith.
They're not very biblical so Ihave a hard time saying that,
but for lack of whatever it'swithin the Christian faith, they
believe that you have healingand prosperity is meant for you
(05:31):
all the time, every day.
God means you to be healthy andwealthy.
All the time is basically whatit dumbs down to.
That's the meat and potatoes ofwhat they believe is that
health and wealth are supposedto be yours.
You can claim that for yourself.
God promised it to you.
The problem with that is thatGod didn't promise this to us.
(05:54):
Nowhere in the Bible does hepromise this to us.
He didn't even promise it tohis son, jesus, when he came on
this earth to die for our sins,and that was his sole purpose
for coming was to die for oursins.
I don't know about you guyslistening, but that does not
sound like health, wealth,prosperity to me.
So that's what that is, andlaws of attraction kind of goes
(06:18):
in with that.
I know we're going to touch onthat too.
I recently heard on a podcastbecause I used to call it new
age in style what it was.
But I'm finding out it's notnew age, it's called new thought
.
Melissa Doherty.
I don't know if you know whoshe is, but she is someone who's
come out of it since 2011.
And she's starting tounderstand because she thought
(06:39):
she was ex new age with what shebelieved, but she started
realizing she was new thought,which is what word of faith?
Prosperity, laws of attraction,things like that is New Thought
, which can potentially lead youinto the New Age.
But she said on this podcastthat the New Thought will
deceive you before the New Agewill.
(07:01):
And it's absolutely true,because there's so many people
who are steeped into this wordof faith and maybe they don't
fully know it.
But laws of attraction is more.
Some people say it's, name itand claim it, blab it and grab
it.
They just have all thesedifferent acronyms or not
acronyms, but catchy slogans forit.
(07:21):
But that's what it is is visionboards.
You put a vision board and yousay all these different mantras
of you know I am this, I amstatements, and you look at
yourself in the mirror.
You almost pray those thingsover yourself and constantly
repeat it like a mantra.
That's kind of what laws ofattraction is is you get what
(07:43):
you give.
So if you're going to give goodthings, you're going to get
good things or all that stuffKarma, I guess, would be another
form of that.
That's what laws of attractionis is you have to do the good
things and you'll get the goodthings.
And that's also not somethingthat's super biblical.
We reap what we sow, but thatgoes for good and bad things,
(08:04):
not just good things.
But they believe that you canmanifest these things if you
believe it.
Hard enough, like you weresaying, if you have enough faith
.
That is one of the things thatthey harp on the most is if you
didn't get your healing, if youdidn't get this, if you didn't
get the big boat you've beenpraying for, you didn't have
enough faith to believe you havethat.
(08:29):
And that's one of the thingsthat broke my heart when you
were talking about your son andhow he was praying for you when
you were younger and he waslistening to them saying you
don't have enough faith.
Jesus in the Bible tells us tohave childlike faith.
He wouldn't say that if kidsdidn't have faith or if their
faith wasn't significant enoughto notice Kids have a lot more
faith than adults do, than wegive them credit for.
(08:51):
Your son probably believed withall his heart that God would
heal you.
And to hear people say that,that crumbles people's spiritual
walks, it cripples them.
There's so many people who havebeen involved in the Word of
Faith and prosperity gospel whostep away from the faith because
of people talking to them likethat.
(09:11):
And I find it interesting thatyou went to a Benny Hinn
conference because I don't knowpeople specifically that have.
I mean, I've heard stories andwhatnot, but not someone that I
kind of know personally.
So I find that interesting yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I was desperate.
I told my husband.
I said I need to go do thisjust so that I know.
I need to know for myselfwhether I don't know.
I just needed to prove that Ihad enough faith to prove that I
didn't believe this.
But the thing is too, is I thinkwe look at healing the wrong
way too.
Frankly, I've had a lot ofhealing.
He's just healed me in it andhonestly, I think I got the best
(09:51):
of both worlds.
I can take them off at night,not hear a thing and sleep great
.
And then this I wouldn't beable to do this without them.
So God's been good to me.
There has been a lot of healingin it too, and emotionally and
mentally, and learning how toadvocate for myself and I
advocate for other people and tobe that kind of person to have
(10:12):
and I have so much morecompassion towards people who
have to go through these thingsor have to deal with certain
disabilities, and I think that'sa gift and I feel like we look
at people with disabilities asbroken.
But if everyone is made inGod's image, then there's
something about people withdisability that are part of
God's image to me and it's takenme a long time to really look
(10:34):
at it that way, but I wouldn'tget there if I hadn't gone
through the process, and I justthink that we need to shift our
mindset, too, as to what healinglooks like, and maybe that
healing was more important forme than the physical healing, so
, yeah, Amen, preach it.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Preach it, desiree.
I love that.
That is a great mindset to have.
There are so many people inthis world who believe that if
you even get the sniffles youhave to shut that down.
You can't say a negative wordabout it.
That's also part of the laws ofattraction is don't speak
negativity because you're goingto get negativity.
No, sometimes negativity justhappens.
(11:12):
I mean, what if you aren'tspeaking negative about
something and someone comesaround you and they speak
negativity and that affects you.
Some stuff is out of yourcontrol and you just can't
handle that as saying oh, getaway from me, you crazy negative
person.
You can't do that becausethere's going to be negativity
(11:32):
and bad things that happen.
The Bible says we will suffer.
I don't understand why there'sso many Christians who are
involved in this and don't seethe glaring problem staring at
them.
It is a glaring problem.
We are not called to have cushy, wonderful, happy lives all the
time.
Jesus didn't have one.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, and that's the lie, I think.
And I think sometimes it boilsdown to how we represent the
gospel, because I've been inplaces, too, where we present it
that way Come to Jesus and allwill be well and we, we will be
well, you know we will be well.
But there are things we have togo through to be well, things
you take us through.
It's not a, it's a bumpy ride.
It's not a smooth, like yousaid, cushy ride, some high
(12:16):
class meal all the time and yeah, see, um, you know, we just I
think the the perspective is, Ijust think we represent it wrong
when we present the gospel.
So some of that has been on ourend as to how we say it.
And then people expect somehowthat Jesus is going to cure
everything in the way they thinkthey are.
(12:36):
He does cure everything.
He doesn't do it in the way wethink he's going to.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, and I love that you said that, because that's
where I was thinking too, isbecause you said we will be well
, but we're not going to be well, maybe in the sense that we
want it.
I have a chronic issue thataffects my nerves two, maybe
three times a year and it'sreally uncomfortable and painful
.
Even if you were just to brushmy arm, it just pins and needles
(13:03):
.
I can't take it.
It only happens maybe a coupleof days out of the month, but
it's self-inflicted, because Imade stupid choices in my past
and did certain things withpeople and because of that I
received this gift from thepeople.
That was self-inflicted.
I made bad choices.
I got.
I reaped what I sowed,basically, and sometimes you
(13:26):
don't reap what you sow in theway that you were expecting For
example, another part of my life.
I should be in jail right nowfor some of the stuff that I've
done.
Clearly I'm not in jail, so Godshowed me some favor, so I
didn't reap exactly what I sowed.
It's not karma.
If it was karma, I probablywould be in jail, because that's
different from God's love andhis mercy.
(13:46):
But sometimes you get healingin ways that you weren't
expecting.
You didn't get your fullhearing back.
But you got so much more.
You've got a testimony to share.
Your son got to see how youworked through the fact that God
didn't heal you the way that hewas praying, and I think that's
going to strengthen hisrelationship more, because he
(14:08):
gets to see how you're stillrelying on God, how you're still
faithful through the fact thathealing didn't go the way you
wanted.
So in my case, with my nervepain, I was really bitter about
it when I first found out that Ihad this issue and it made me
(14:28):
angry.
I didn't have the rightperspective and I wanted it to
go away because it wasuncomfortable.
And I just didn't want itbecause what I have can create a
stigma in the world.
If I were to tell people whatit is, they'll be like ew, but
at some point I don't even knowwhen it happened, but at some
point I just surrendered evenknow when it happened, but at
some point I just surrenderedand said you know what, god,
this isn't going away, it'suncomfortable, but I'm not going
to fight you on it anymore.
(14:49):
There's a reason that I still gothrough this and maybe it's
just so I can remember howfaithful he's been, because,
despite all the stupid things Idid in my life, this chronic
issue that only lasts maybe acouple days but happens maybe
three times out of a year and ispainful, but it only happens
for a short amount of time.
(15:10):
But it reminds me of thefaithfulness of God in my life,
that I'm not in jail, that Ihave not lost the things that I
have now.
I would not be married, I wouldnot have three other beautiful
children if he had given me whatI truly deserved for my actions
.
So I look at it now as Ibelieve it was Paul who was
saying he has a thorn in hisside.
(15:30):
Maybe it was Peter, but that'swhat I look at it as it's just a
thorn in my side.
It's a reminder that God is allI need.
His grace is sufficient for me.
And I think that's where we getit wrong, especially if we're
focused on the health and wealth, prosperity gospel is.
We just want everything to behappy, hunky-dory, we don't want
(15:50):
to hurt, we don't want pain,suffering, all these things.
But God works beautifullythrough those things and he gets
the glory for it.
When we come out on the otherside healthy and strong and firm
, and people look at us andthey're in awe and they say what
are you doing differently fromme?
And then you get a chance toshare the love of Jesus.
(16:11):
So we shouldn't be so quick towant to dismiss it, to mantra
our way out of it, to visionboard what we.
But we should ask God to giveus what he wants and bend to his
will, because it's always goingto be for our good and his
perfect love.
We should want what he has forus because it's always going to
(16:32):
be the best.
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I know I do.
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It's a short devotional full ofencouragement, guidance and
(16:53):
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Speaker 2 (17:15):
I agree with that too .
Yeah, and we don't always lookat it as it's the best in the
moment, but it truly is.
At the end of the day, when weget to the other side, we can
see more of that.
It's harder, I think, whenwe're in, and people do do
things out of desperation.
But I love that we're talkingabout this, because I don't hear
it talked about in this way toexpose things as to, and it's
(17:35):
more of bringing them towards itinstead of away from it.
So I really love that you'redoing this.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, and there is a movement that I'm noticing.
A lot of the podcasts that Ilisten to, they're starting to
talk about a lot of thesedifferent themes and it's good
that more people are noticingnow that it's a problem.
They're sharing theirexperiences or talking about it
and it is a subject that needsto be talked about within the
church because it's involvingthe church and it's also for
(18:07):
those who aren't in the church.
It's giving them a bad idea ofwhat God is.
It's a bad example, because ifyou tell somebody God wants you
to be healthy and wealthy allthe time, you just got to sow
the seed, you know, pay themoney, the big bucks, all those
different things that they tellyou.
And seed, pay the money, thebig bucks, all those different
things that they tell you.
And if it doesn't happen, thenmaybe you didn't sow enough,
maybe you don't have enoughfaith.
(18:29):
Why is some non-believer goingto want to become a believer if
that's the God they serve, whoisn't getting enough money,
getting enough of that cheddar,that he's not doing what he
needs to do?
Nobody's going to want to servethat.
I mean, when I was in it, I hada hard time.
If something didn't go right, Iwondered what did I do wrong?
(18:50):
Why didn't God answer my prayer?
I was praying, I was saying allthese things, I believed these
things.
I believed that he was going todo this for me and my family.
Why didn't he do it?
What am I doing wrong?
And maybe it's not you at thatpoint.
Maybe he's just saying no, notyet.
Or you're doing it wrong, let'stry it this way.
(19:11):
But you're not focused on that.
You're focused on you and whatyou're doing wrong and how you
can fix it.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
And it's not about you, yeah, and I think a lot of
those things.
That's where the attention whatGod can do for me, what God can
do for me all the time andmakes God this genie that you're
just supposed to say, rub thelamp and he's supposed to show
up and give you what you wantand that's not who God is.
I think that's the other key isfor people to really we really
(19:38):
need to represent God well,because the problem is they
don't know God.
So when we represent him thatway, of course they're going to
think that that's the way heworks.
And I mean it's reallyinteresting because I mean we've
been through everythingpossible and we went through
that one too with the prosperitygospel.
We've invested in places,listening to that, thinking that
this was somehow the way orwhatever, because we were, we've
(20:00):
been tight a lot most of ourlives.
And you get kind of weary inthat and you wonder what is that
really?
Is this really your best for me?
But meanwhile we're going,we're trusting and investing in
this and meanwhile they'rebuying jets and living in
mansions and you start to wonderwhat's wrong with this picture.
(20:20):
I mean I don't know, but we'reblinded to that, we're deceived,
we're really we're trying tomake things better for ourselves
, like you said, and we'rethinking this is some magical
answer to life's problems, youknow, in the easy way to just to
try to get it done.
And it just doesn't work thatway.
That's not, that's not reallythe way God, and God works that
(20:42):
way sometimes.
I believe he still heals people.
I believe he still is a miracleworker in every way, and I've
seen it in my own life, wherethere's immediate things, but a
lot of the times he doesn't workthat way.
I mean, for me, I need to learnhow to wait to enjoy the
process, and usually that's theway I have to learn.
So I think most of us are likethat he just doesn't do it that
(21:05):
way, but we represent him wrongin so many ways sometimes.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, and there are some teachers out there who are
definitely representing himwrong Joyce Meyer, joel Osteen,
kenneth Copeland, all theseothers, andrew Womack people who
are just.
You have to look at the fruitand line it up with scripture.
Look at the people you'relistening to.
I used to listen to Joyce Meyera lot and she used to give me
(21:30):
the warm fuzzies.
But that's not biblical to givepeople the warm fuzzies.
We're supposed to be feelingconviction for our sins so that
we can change.
We're supposed to be trying tobe like Christ.
We're never going to achievethat until we die and go to
heaven, but we're supposed to betrying to do that.
(21:50):
So if you're getting the warmfuzzies all the time, you're not
growing, because then you feel,oh, I'm good where I am, I'm
this, I'm that.
I was listening to MelissaDoherty, who was talking on this
podcast, and she was saying ifyou're having a bad day and you
need a reminder that you are achild of God, that is not a
(22:10):
mantra, that is not laws ofattraction, that is not an
affirmation statement.
That is you reminding yourselfof who you are so that you can
stay strong.
There's a difference betweenwords of affirmation and trying
to say something over and over.
You have to look at your why.
Why are you saying this?
(22:30):
Why do you feel the need to saythis right now?
What is your purpose for it?
And when you check your motivesfor a lot of the things, I
think that's where the scaleswill come off your eyes and you
will start realizing whereyou're going wrong in your
doctrine.
Why do you believe that Godexpects you to be perfect all
the time?
(22:50):
Why do you believe that you'resupposed to have health and
wealth all the time?
Where's your proof of that?
You know?
Then you take a step out ofyourself and out of your own
desires.
You can see the truth, and thetruth will set you free, and I
think there's just a lot ofpeople, especially in America.
We want to live cushy, happylives.
(23:11):
We don't want people to tell usthe truth, because the truth
hurt.
But that's what we need is thetruth.
We need someone to come up tothe pulpit and tell us that
we're sinners in need of aSavior.
We don't need them to say, oh,you are enough, you are okay,
you will be fine.
God loves you and he wantseverything to go your way.
That sounds good, that's whatwe want to hear, but that's not
(23:35):
what God is saying, because ifyou read the Bible, I don't hear
that.
When I read the Bible, I meanhe wants.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
I mean he wants us to know that he loves us.
That's important, but I thinkwhere we get stuck is, yes, and
he loves us, he wants us to cometo him where we are, but it's
not where he wants to leave us.
And too many times those arethe things that leave us there,
because we don't think thatthere's anything else to do.
And you know he loves us wherewe are but he wants to take us
(24:11):
to where we look more like him,and that takes work and that
takes pruning and that takes allthose things that we don't want
to do, because it people that Ijust mentioned or others
there's plenty others out therewho are doing the same thing the
(24:36):
Prosperity Gospel, crefloDollar is another one, and
there's some other ones that Ican't remember or whatever.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
They're everywhere.
But look at the fruit.
Who are they pointing back to?
If a miracle were to happenwhen you hear one of their
stories about how God intervenedin their life and did this or
that, who's getting the glorythere?
Look at that and then read yourBible.
(25:03):
They use scripture.
If they didn't use scripturethen I don't think Christians
would be as involved in it,because they'd realize quickly
that it's not biblical.
But they use scripture, theyjust twist it.
They tweak it a little likeSatan did in the Bible in the
very beginning when he wastwisting God's words.
Did he really say that's whatthey do?
(25:26):
They twist the scripture?
That's why we have to be in ourword, constantly knowing what
the Bible says, and we have tobe listening with ears to hear
what God is saying about who Godis, because the Bible is God's
love story to us and youmentioned that in your book,
which I felt was a beautifulchapter talking about that, the
(25:47):
Bible and what it is.
It's a love story to us, abouthim, not about us.
It's about him and his love forus, what he did for us, yes,
but it's to show us who God isand why we should glorify him,
why we should serve him.
So you have to look at theBible from that perspective,
which isn't easy because we areselfish human beings.
(26:10):
I mean, we're constantlylooking at what can I get out of
this?
What is he trying to tell me?
He might be trying to tell yousomething, but it might not be
about your current situation, itmight not be for you
specifically, but he's justtrying to show you who he is,
reveal himself to you of who heis, so that you can better
(26:31):
glorify him.
And if we start stepping out ofourselves more and focus on God
and try to read the Bible theway that we should which is
remembering it's about him Ithink we will start being able
to see more of the deceptionthat is coming out of the word
of faith and the prosperitygospel and laws of attraction
(26:54):
and all these affirmations thatwe're mantra-ing.
You can't manifest anything.
We aren't God.
We are made in the image of God, but we aren't God.
We don't have that kind ofpower.
Have you had any times in yourlife where you've tried to do
the words of affirmation or thedon't speak anything negative
(27:16):
because it might come true.
Did you ever get really intothe whole manifestation part of
it, I know?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I did.
I never got into that too much.
I mean, I've heard a lot of it.
I've been around a lot ofpeople who do that.
I mean I think I tried it alittle bit, but it really was so
ineffective for me.
It didn't take me long.
I think God taught me as I wasmessing around with that a
little bit.
Yeah, he showed me.
It's just on his end.
It's being grateful.
That's where the power is beinggrateful and learning to be
(27:46):
content, not just shouting outpositive words all the time and
avoiding the negative.
Jesus didn't avoid the negativeeither.
I mean, if you look in hiswords, he didn't always say
pretty words.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah, he called people out.
He said get thee behind me,satan.
To Peter.
So yeah, he didn't mince hiswords.
He wasn't a fluffy bunny sermonpreacher words.
He wasn't a fluffy bunny sermonpreacher.
He told it in as loving a wayas he could to get the point
across and the ones who had earsto hear heard what he said and
(28:21):
did something positive about it,and then everyone else just
went on with their life.
I can't hear you.
And then we wonder why things gowrong, and sometimes they're
out of our control.
They have to do with otherpeople and their decisions.
Other times we need to lookinward and say I think I brought
this on myself and you could bethe most positive person all
(28:42):
the time, saying all thepositive things, manifesting as
much as you want.
But if it doesn't happen, whatdoes that do to your faith?
Was your faith actually genuine?
Do you still trust God, or doyou fall away because you loved
the religion or the leader of itmore than you loved God,
because you didn't have arelationship with God, which is
(29:03):
a scary thought to think about.
But you have to do that now,while you still have time,
because when you die there is notime to have that thought and
to make those judgments.
It's over at that point.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
I have been around so many people who go in this
direction, though and I live inan area that has a lot of this.
I would love to ask some ofthese people do you see fruit
there?
You know what do you see?
Where does the positive wordsgo?
Who are you even saying them to?
I don't understand.
I have a hard timeunderstanding why people
(29:37):
continue that when really itdoesn't work.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, yeah, it's hard when you're in it.
It's a hyper emotional feelingtype of beliefs and I think
that's why it's hard to get outof.
But once you are out of it andyou've been out of it for a
while you start seeing it andyou're like, how do you not see
(30:01):
this?
But I think we have to, insteadof condemning them, we have to
remember how we were when wewere in it, how we felt, how we
were drawn in all these things.
They affected us so deeply andwe wanted to prove, like you
said, we wanted to prove that wehad enough faith, that we were
(30:23):
good Christians, that we lovedGod the right way.
We wanted to prove it.
But that's not how you prove it.
You prove it by livingaccording to God's word, and
this practice is not accordingto God's word because it puts
you back into a form of legalismthat is extremely more toxic
than just following what theBible says and doing it, even
(30:44):
though you don't know why you'redoing it on a different path to
a different Jesus, on top ofputting you in legal bondage to.
You must do this, and if youdon't do it right, you don't
have enough faith.
So increase your faith now.
But how do you increase yourfaith?
That was always my issue is ifI don't have enough faith, and
(31:05):
that's why this isn't happening,how do I increase my faith?
But they never had an actualanswer other than read your
Bible, pray more.
What does pray more mean?
When do you hit that peak thatyou have prayed enough to have
the faith for whatever you'repraying for?
And then, when you name it andclaim it, that doesn't work
either, because I named andclaimed so many different things
(31:28):
, but life got out of hand.
My eldest child is a prodigal.
She's heavy into the wholetransgender stuff.
I named and claimed that shewas for Jesus, that Satan
couldn't have her.
He has her right now.
What am I supposed to do aboutthat?
Am I supposed to just say, well, god is terrible, I don't want
(31:48):
anything to do with him, goodbye.
No, it was not God.
God is terrible, I don't wantanything to do with him.
Goodbye.
No, it was not God.
None of this is of God, andthat's the dangerous part of it
is that you are pulling peopleaway from God when things don't
go their way, because they'veput God and the person they're
following, who's teaching themthese things, in the same
position that they should not be.
(32:09):
In the person you are following,who you glorify, through
believing what they're saying,reading all their books,
following their teachings andthe things they say to do, you
are elevating them to a positionthat they are God or God-like
and you can't touch them.
They know what they're talkingabout so that when something
(32:30):
goes wrong, you associate thatperson as God, and there's no in
between.
It's not.
Oh, this person failed mebecause they're human and they
make mistakes.
It's no, it's God, because youhave turned that person into a
God and you've blurred the linesbetween what's reality and
what's not, and people are notGod.
God may be using some people,but they aren't God, and you
(32:54):
can't blame God when thingsdon't go right in your life,
because he's not the one whotold you to do it that way
anyways.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, and I think it boils down to because we are all
seeking for something to fillus, every single one of us, and
I feel like there's almost anaddictive nature in all of this,
too, because I kept seeking.
That's what addictive nature inall of this, too?
Because I kept seeking, that'swhat brought me to many hen,
because I kept seeking andtrying to.
Yeah, so every someone, inevery single one of these areas,
they're seeking for thatfilling and the problem is it's
(33:25):
not coming.
So you keep going.
It's like gambling, yeah,because you think there's
something, there's going to besomething at the end for you,
and the problem is is is likeyou said, they're, they're
seeking after.
I believe they're seeking forGod, but they're seeking after
the wrong one, and I just praythat God opens people's eyes to
see and I think theseconversations will help so that
(33:48):
they do find the one true God,and he fills them the way they
need to be filled.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
Thank you, Desiree, for comingon today.
This has been a very powerfulconversation that I hope people
have had open hearts to hearingwhat we've said and not just
closed it off because we'rerubbing them wrong or whatever.
And I can't stress it enoughthat we need to stay in the word
(34:16):
and know what it truly says sothat we can discern when
someone's telling us a lie,because it is so easy to get
sucked into this and to stay inthere because it's so
emotionally felt.
It's a very touchy-feely typeof thing and that draws you in
and can keep you, and that isnot healthy.
(34:39):
We're not always going to have amountaintop experience with God
.
A lot of times we're in thevalley and if you aren't open to
that, then you have to submitto God and ask him to help you
get to that place, because thisdoctrine, this faith, healing,
all these things where they aretelling you all these lies, it's
not good, it's very toxic anddraws people away from the
(35:04):
church and ruins people's faith.
So thank you for coming on andsharing your experience and for
just sharing your heart.
I love your book.
Everyone needs to read it.
It's got a lot in there and,yeah, I just love you.
You're so sweet.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
You're so honest.
Thanks for having me on, yeah,and I love being able to talk
about these things.
This is my heart too, which isto talk about those things that
have been in the dark for a longtime and see people free.
That's what I pray for thatthese opportunities just are
more opportunities to share whohe is and what he's done and to
see people free from the placethey're in.
(35:44):
So thanks for the opportunityfor that.
What do you think of when you hear these words?
Manifesting affirmationstatements, health and wealth?
If you said the reasons I nolonger follow Christ false
doctrines and new age stuff, orways to deepen my faith then you
might know which subject myreturning guest, desiree Taylor,
(00:20):
and myself will be discussingtoday.
Desiree appeared on my podcasta few months ago Season 3,
episode 7, sharing her story ofcoming out of legalism.
Part of her impactful storyinvolves this toxic doctrine.
What doctrine are we talkingabout?
Stay tuned to find out Beforethe episode starts.
(00:53):
Make sure you follow the showso you never miss another
episode.
Well, hello again, desiree.
I'm so excited to talk to youabout today's topic.
But before we start doing that,why don't you share with us who
you are?
For those who aren't familiarwith your episode from season
three, which was about legalismand breaking free from that,
they should check that episodeout, because it was very
powerful and encouraging, and sowas your book.
(01:15):
Go ahead and tell us a littleabout yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Well, thank you for having me on again.
My name is Desiree Taylor.
I am a first time author.
I just wrote my first book andpublished it in August.
It's called Created to Relate,Living Beyond Religion, talking
about breaking out of thosereligious and legalistic
mindsets into that freedom ofthe relationship with Jesus.
I've been married to my husbandfor 28 years.
(01:38):
I have two grown boys that are30 and 25, and I'm hoping to
write more books.
So that's really what I doright now and I'm very involved
in ministry with the youngadults at church.
Your book- was beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
It did not take me that long to read it because I
could relate to it, so the titleis very fitting for the book,
and your book actually deals alot with the subject we're going
to talk about today, which isword of faith, prosperity,
gospel and laws of attraction.
(02:12):
So you have had some experiencewith it, as have I and let's
discuss this topic.
So you want to share some ofyour experiences good, bad, ugly
, whatever they are.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, I think one of the biggest experiences for me
was because I am deaf and I havecochlear implants and my oldest
son he would pray for healingall the time for me when he was
younger and we were praying forthat because of the prosperity,
(02:48):
gospel influence and the word offaith.
So as we prayed about this andnothing happened, people kept
saying to me well, you probablydon't have enough faith.
This was said to me over andover again and it was very
painful for me because I knew inmy heart I believed that God
could do this.
And my son's praying, he'slooking, he's hearing those
things too.
He's looking and notunderstanding why God's not
healing me.
And I mean I did everything.
(03:08):
I went all the way to BennyHinn for one of his things to.
I think it was to prove tomyself that I had the faith.
And then, when nothing happened, then it was almost.
It was so devastating to mebecause I'm like maybe there is
something wrong with me that Idon't have enough faith for God
to do this, and it took me along time to find out what a lie
(03:29):
that was.
And I feel like there's a lotof people in that.
They feel like if things aren'thappening the way they think it
should, that they just don'thave enough faith.
I just talked to another ladythe other day who was slowly
going into this, so I'm lookingforward to having that
conversation with her toencourage her in that.
But as I sit now and I watcheverything that God has done
(03:51):
through my hearing loss, throughthe deafness, through my
cochlear implant experience Ihave a beautiful relationship
with my audiologist.
I've been able to share Jesuswith different people along the
way.
It's taught me suchperseverance and I'm much
stronger as a person but also asa child of God.
It's caused me to rely on himmore and to have a deeper trust
(04:12):
in him and I think sometimes hejust allows things for the
reason he does.
He's used my hearing loss.
He's used my cochlear implantprocess to help other people.
He says in his word that hecomforts us in those things to
comfort other people.
Sometimes he has a higherpurpose in what he's doing, even
if we don't understand, and Ithink the word of faith
personalizes it almost like thereligious, legalistic stuff does
(04:35):
, and makes it there's somethingwrong with you and that was a
really difficult experience forme and it was painful.
God's used it.
He doesn't waste a thing, butit was a painful process.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, and I have some thoughts on what you said,
because I understand and I canhear the pain when you're
sharing it.
But before we do that, I dowant to tell those who may not
be familiar with what thesepractices are, just give an
overview of what they are.
So word of faith and prosperitygospel kind of go hand in hand,
(05:09):
and law of attraction goes inwith it too.
But these are a belief within,I guess you could say, the
Christian faith.
They're not very biblical so Ihave a hard time saying that,
but for lack of whatever it'swithin the Christian faith, they
believe that you have healingand prosperity is meant for you
(05:31):
all the time, every day.
God means you to be healthy andwealthy.
All the time is basically whatit dumbs down to.
That's the meat and potatoes ofwhat they believe is that
health and wealth are supposedto be yours.
You can claim that for yourself.
God promised it to you.
The problem with that is thatGod didn't promise this to us.
(05:54):
Nowhere in the Bible does hepromise this to us.
He didn't even promise it tohis son, jesus, when he came on
this earth to die for our sins,and that was his sole purpose
for coming was to die for oursins.
I don't know about you guyslistening, but that does not
sound like health, wealth,prosperity to me.
So that's what that is, andlaws of attraction kind of goes
(06:18):
in with that.
I know we're going to touch onthat too.
I recently heard on a podcastbecause I used to call it new
age in style what it was.
But I'm finding out it's notnew age, it's called new thought
.
Melissa Doherty.
I don't know if you know whoshe is, but she is someone who's
come out of it since 2011.
And she's starting tounderstand because she thought
(06:39):
she was ex new age with what shebelieved, but she started
realizing she was new thought,which is what word of faith?
Prosperity, laws of attraction,things like that is New Thought
, which can potentially lead youinto the New Age.
But she said on this podcastthat the New Thought will
deceive you before the New Agewill.
(07:01):
And it's absolutely true,because there's so many people
who are steeped into this wordof faith and maybe they don't
fully know it.
But laws of attraction is more.
Some people say it's, name itand claim it, blab it and grab
it.
They just have all thesedifferent acronyms or not
acronyms, but catchy slogans forit.
(07:21):
But that's what it is is visionboards.
You put a vision board and yousay all these different mantras
of you know I am this, I amstatements, and you look at
yourself in the mirror.
You almost pray those thingsover yourself and constantly
repeat it like a mantra.
That's kind of what laws ofattraction is is you get what
(07:43):
you give.
So if you're going to give goodthings, you're going to get
good things or all that stuffKarma, I guess, would be another
form of that.
That's what laws of attractionis is you have to do the good
things and you'll get the goodthings.
And that's also not somethingthat's super biblical.
We reap what we sow, but thatgoes for good and bad things,
(08:04):
not just good things.
But they believe that you canmanifest these things if you
believe it.
Hard enough, like you weresaying, if you have enough faith
.
That is one of the things thatthey harp on the most is if you
didn't get your healing, if youdidn't get this, if you didn't
get the big boat you've beenpraying for, you didn't have
enough faith to believe you havethat.
(08:29):
And that's one of the thingsthat broke my heart when you
were talking about your son andhow he was praying for you when
you were younger and he waslistening to them saying you
don't have enough faith.
Jesus in the Bible tells us tohave childlike faith.
He wouldn't say that if kidsdidn't have faith or if their
faith wasn't significant enoughto notice Kids have a lot more
faith than adults do, than wegive them credit for.
(08:51):
Your son probably believed withall his heart that God would
heal you.
And to hear people say that,that crumbles people's spiritual
walks, it cripples them.
There's so many people who havebeen involved in the Word of
Faith and prosperity gospel whostep away from the faith because
of people talking to them likethat.
(09:11):
And I find it interesting thatyou went to a Benny Hinn
conference because I don't knowpeople specifically that have.
I mean, I've heard stories andwhatnot, but not someone that I
kind of know personally.
So I find that interesting yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I was desperate.
I told my husband.
I said I need to go do thisjust so that I know.
I need to know for myselfwhether I don't know.
I just needed to prove that Ihad enough faith to prove that I
didn't believe this.
But the thing is too, is I thinkwe look at healing the wrong
way too.
Frankly, I've had a lot ofhealing.
He's just healed me in it andhonestly, I think I got the best
(09:51):
of both worlds.
I can take them off at night,not hear a thing and sleep great
.
And then this I wouldn't beable to do this without them.
So God's been good to me.
There has been a lot of healingin it too, and emotionally and
mentally, and learning how toadvocate for myself and I
advocate for other people and tobe that kind of person to have
(10:12):
and I have so much morecompassion towards people who
have to go through these thingsor have to deal with certain
disabilities, and I think that'sa gift and I feel like we look
at people with disabilities asbroken.
But if everyone is made inGod's image, then there's
something about people withdisability that are part of
God's image to me and it's takenme a long time to really look
(10:34):
at it that way, but I wouldn'tget there if I hadn't gone
through the process, and I justthink that we need to shift our
mindset, too, as to what healinglooks like, and maybe that
healing was more important forme than the physical healing, so
, yeah, Amen, preach it.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Preach it, desiree.
I love that.
That is a great mindset to have.
There are so many people inthis world who believe that if
you even get the sniffles youhave to shut that down.
You can't say a negative wordabout it.
That's also part of the laws ofattraction is don't speak
negativity because you're goingto get negativity.
No, sometimes negativity justhappens.
(11:12):
I mean, what if you aren'tspeaking negative about
something and someone comesaround you and they speak
negativity and that affects you.
Some stuff is out of yourcontrol and you just can't
handle that as saying oh, getaway from me, you crazy negative
person.
You can't do that becausethere's going to be negativity
(11:32):
and bad things that happen.
The Bible says we will suffer.
I don't understand why there'sso many Christians who are
involved in this and don't seethe glaring problem staring at
them.
It is a glaring problem.
We are not called to have cushy, wonderful, happy lives all the
time.
Jesus didn't have one.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, and that's the lie, I think.
And I think sometimes it boilsdown to how we represent the
gospel, because I've been inplaces, too, where we present it
that way Come to Jesus and allwill be well and we, we will be
well, you know we will be well.
But there are things we have togo through to be well, things
you take us through.
It's not a, it's a bumpy ride.
It's not a smooth, like yousaid, cushy ride, some high
(12:16):
class meal all the time and yeah, see, um, you know, we just I
think the the perspective is, Ijust think we represent it wrong
when we present the gospel.
So some of that has been on ourend as to how we say it.
And then people expect somehowthat Jesus is going to cure
everything in the way they thinkthey are.
(12:36):
He does cure everything.
He doesn't do it in the way wethink he's going to.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, and I love that you said that, because that's
where I was thinking too, isbecause you said we will be well
, but we're not going to be well, maybe in the sense that we
want it.
I have a chronic issue thataffects my nerves two, maybe
three times a year and it'sreally uncomfortable and painful
.
Even if you were just to brushmy arm, it just pins and needles
(13:03):
.
I can't take it.
It only happens maybe a coupleof days out of the month, but
it's self-inflicted, because Imade stupid choices in my past
and did certain things withpeople and because of that I
received this gift from thepeople.
That was self-inflicted.
I made bad choices.
I got.
I reaped what I sowed,basically, and sometimes you
(13:26):
don't reap what you sow in theway that you were expecting For
example, another part of my life.
I should be in jail right nowfor some of the stuff that I've
done.
Clearly I'm not in jail, so Godshowed me some favor, so I
didn't reap exactly what I sowed.
It's not karma.
If it was karma, I probablywould be in jail, because that's
different from God's love andhis mercy.
(13:46):
But sometimes you get healingin ways that you weren't
expecting.
You didn't get your fullhearing back.
But you got so much more.
You've got a testimony to share.
Your son got to see how youworked through the fact that God
didn't heal you the way that hewas praying, and I think that's
going to strengthen hisrelationship more, because he
(14:08):
gets to see how you're stillrelying on God, how you're still
faithful through the fact thathealing didn't go the way you
wanted.
So in my case, with my nervepain, I was really bitter about
it when I first found out that Ihad this issue and it made me
(14:28):
angry.
I didn't have the rightperspective and I wanted it to
go away because it wasuncomfortable.
And I just didn't want itbecause what I have can create a
stigma in the world.
If I were to tell people whatit is, they'll be like ew, but
at some point I don't even knowwhen it happened, but at some
point I just surrendered evenknow when it happened, but at
some point I just surrenderedand said you know what, god,
this isn't going away, it'suncomfortable, but I'm not going
to fight you on it anymore.
(14:49):
There's a reason that I still gothrough this and maybe it's
just so I can remember howfaithful he's been, because,
despite all the stupid things Idid in my life, this chronic
issue that only lasts maybe acouple days but happens maybe
three times out of a year and ispainful, but it only happens
for a short amount of time.
(15:10):
But it reminds me of thefaithfulness of God in my life,
that I'm not in jail, that Ihave not lost the things that I
have now.
I would not be married, I wouldnot have three other beautiful
children if he had given me whatI truly deserved for my actions
.
So I look at it now as Ibelieve it was Paul who was
saying he has a thorn in hisside.
(15:30):
Maybe it was Peter, but that'swhat I look at it as it's just a
thorn in my side.
It's a reminder that God is allI need.
His grace is sufficient for me.
And I think that's where we getit wrong, especially if we're
focused on the health and wealth, prosperity gospel is.
We just want everything to behappy, hunky-dory, we don't want
(15:50):
to hurt, we don't want pain,suffering, all these things.
But God works beautifullythrough those things and he gets
the glory for it.
When we come out on the otherside healthy and strong and firm
, and people look at us andthey're in awe and they say what
are you doing differently fromme?
And then you get a chance toshare the love of Jesus.
(16:11):
So we shouldn't be so quick towant to dismiss it, to mantra
our way out of it, to visionboard what we.
But we should ask God to giveus what he wants and bend to his
will, because it's always goingto be for our good and his
perfect love.
We should want what he has forus because it's always going to
(16:32):
be the best.
Who doesn't love free?
I know I do.
That's why I created a freeseven-day devotional for those
who want to go deeper with God.
It's a short devotional full ofencouragement, guidance and
(16:53):
impactful Bible verses relatedto everyday struggles we all go
through.
I know you will love thisdevotional as much as I enjoyed
writing it and since it'sdigital, you can do it anywhere
anytime Perfect for the personalways on the go.
Get the free devotional whenyou sign up for my mailing list.
The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I agree with that too .
Yeah, and we don't always lookat it as it's the best in the
moment, but it truly is.
At the end of the day, when weget to the other side, we can
see more of that.
It's harder, I think, whenwe're in, and people do do
things out of desperation.
But I love that we're talkingabout this, because I don't hear
it talked about in this way toexpose things as to, and it's
(17:35):
more of bringing them towards itinstead of away from it.
So I really love that you'redoing this.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, and there is a movement that I'm noticing.
A lot of the podcasts that Ilisten to, they're starting to
talk about a lot of thesedifferent themes and it's good
that more people are noticingnow that it's a problem.
They're sharing theirexperiences or talking about it
and it is a subject that needsto be talked about within the
church because it's involvingthe church and it's also for
(18:07):
those who aren't in the church.
It's giving them a bad idea ofwhat God is.
It's a bad example, because ifyou tell somebody God wants you
to be healthy and wealthy allthe time, you just got to sow
the seed, you know, pay themoney, the big bucks, all those
different things that they tellyou.
And seed, pay the money, thebig bucks, all those different
things that they tell you.
And if it doesn't happen, thenmaybe you didn't sow enough,
maybe you don't have enoughfaith.
(18:29):
Why is some non-believer goingto want to become a believer if
that's the God they serve, whoisn't getting enough money,
getting enough of that cheddar,that he's not doing what he
needs to do?
Nobody's going to want to servethat.
I mean, when I was in it, I hada hard time.
If something didn't go right, Iwondered what did I do wrong?
(18:50):
Why didn't God answer my prayer?
I was praying, I was saying allthese things, I believed these
things.
I believed that he was going todo this for me and my family.
Why didn't he do it?
What am I doing wrong?
And maybe it's not you at thatpoint.
Maybe he's just saying no, notyet.
Or you're doing it wrong, let'stry it this way.
(19:11):
But you're not focused on that.
You're focused on you and whatyou're doing wrong and how you
can fix it.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
And it's not about you, yeah, and I think a lot of
those things.
That's where the attention whatGod can do for me, what God can
do for me all the time andmakes God this genie that you're
just supposed to say, rub thelamp and he's supposed to show
up and give you what you wantand that's not who God is.
I think that's the other key isfor people to really we really
(19:38):
need to represent God well,because the problem is they
don't know God.
So when we represent him thatway, of course they're going to
think that that's the way heworks.
And I mean it's reallyinteresting because I mean we've
been through everythingpossible and we went through
that one too with the prosperitygospel.
We've invested in places,listening to that, thinking that
this was somehow the way orwhatever, because we were, we've
(20:00):
been tight a lot most of ourlives.
And you get kind of weary inthat and you wonder what is that
really?
Is this really your best for me?
But meanwhile we're going,we're trusting and investing in
this and meanwhile they'rebuying jets and living in
mansions and you start to wonderwhat's wrong with this picture.
(20:20):
I mean I don't know, but we'reblinded to that, we're deceived,
we're really we're trying tomake things better for ourselves
, like you said, and we'rethinking this is some magical
answer to life's problems, youknow, in the easy way to just to
try to get it done.
And it just doesn't work thatway.
That's not, that's not reallythe way God, and God works that
(20:42):
way sometimes.
I believe he still heals people.
I believe he still is a miracleworker in every way, and I've
seen it in my own life, wherethere's immediate things, but a
lot of the times he doesn't workthat way.
I mean, for me, I need to learnhow to wait to enjoy the
process, and usually that's theway I have to learn.
So I think most of us are likethat he just doesn't do it that
(21:05):
way, but we represent him wrongin so many ways sometimes.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, and there are some teachers out there who are
definitely representing himwrong Joyce Meyer, joel Osteen,
kenneth Copeland, all theseothers, andrew Womack people who
are just.
You have to look at the fruitand line it up with scripture.
Look at the people you'relistening to.
I used to listen to Joyce Meyera lot and she used to give me
(21:30):
the warm fuzzies.
But that's not biblical to givepeople the warm fuzzies.
We're supposed to be feelingconviction for our sins so that
we can change.
We're supposed to be trying tobe like Christ.
We're never going to achievethat until we die and go to
heaven, but we're supposed to betrying to do that.
(21:50):
So if you're getting the warmfuzzies all the time, you're not
growing, because then you feel,oh, I'm good where I am, I'm
this, I'm that.
I was listening to MelissaDoherty, who was talking on this
podcast, and she was saying ifyou're having a bad day and you
need a reminder that you are achild of God, that is not a
(22:10):
mantra, that is not laws ofattraction, that is not an
affirmation statement.
That is you reminding yourselfof who you are so that you can
stay strong.
There's a difference betweenwords of affirmation and trying
to say something over and over.
You have to look at your why.
Why are you saying this?
(22:30):
Why do you feel the need to saythis right now?
What is your purpose for it?
And when you check your motivesfor a lot of the things, I
think that's where the scaleswill come off your eyes and you
will start realizing whereyou're going wrong in your
doctrine.
Why do you believe that Godexpects you to be perfect all
the time?
(22:50):
Why do you believe that you'resupposed to have health and
wealth all the time?
Where's your proof of that?
You know?
Then you take a step out ofyourself and out of your own
desires.
You can see the truth, and thetruth will set you free, and I
think there's just a lot ofpeople, especially in America.
We want to live cushy, happylives.
(23:11):
We don't want people to tell usthe truth, because the truth
hurt.
But that's what we need is thetruth.
We need someone to come up tothe pulpit and tell us that
we're sinners in need of aSavior.
We don't need them to say, oh,you are enough, you are okay,
you will be fine.
God loves you and he wantseverything to go your way.
That sounds good, that's whatwe want to hear, but that's not
(23:35):
what God is saying, because ifyou read the Bible, I don't hear
that.
When I read the Bible, I meanhe wants.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
I mean he wants us to know that he loves us.
That's important, but I thinkwhere we get stuck is, yes, and
he loves us, he wants us to cometo him where we are, but it's
not where he wants to leave us.
And too many times those arethe things that leave us there,
because we don't think thatthere's anything else to do.
And you know he loves us wherewe are but he wants to take us
(24:11):
to where we look more like him,and that takes work and that
takes pruning and that takes allthose things that we don't want
to do, because it people that Ijust mentioned or others
there's plenty others out therewho are doing the same thing the
(24:36):
Prosperity Gospel, crefloDollar is another one, and
there's some other ones that Ican't remember or whatever.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
They're everywhere.
But look at the fruit.
Who are they pointing back to?
If a miracle were to happenwhen you hear one of their
stories about how God intervenedin their life and did this or
that, who's getting the glorythere?
Look at that and then read yourBible.
(25:03):
They use scripture.
If they didn't use scripturethen I don't think Christians
would be as involved in it,because they'd realize quickly
that it's not biblical.
But they use scripture, theyjust twist it.
They tweak it a little likeSatan did in the Bible in the
very beginning when he wastwisting God's words.
Did he really say that's whatthey do?
(25:26):
They twist the scripture?
That's why we have to be in ourword, constantly knowing what
the Bible says, and we have tobe listening with ears to hear
what God is saying about who Godis, because the Bible is God's
love story to us and youmentioned that in your book,
which I felt was a beautifulchapter talking about that, the
(25:47):
Bible and what it is.
It's a love story to us, abouthim, not about us.
It's about him and his love forus, what he did for us, yes,
but it's to show us who God isand why we should glorify him,
why we should serve him.
So you have to look at theBible from that perspective,
which isn't easy because we areselfish human beings.
(26:10):
I mean, we're constantlylooking at what can I get out of
this?
What is he trying to tell me?
He might be trying to tell yousomething, but it might not be
about your current situation, itmight not be for you
specifically, but he's justtrying to show you who he is,
reveal himself to you of who heis, so that you can better
(26:31):
glorify him.
And if we start stepping out ofourselves more and focus on God
and try to read the Bible theway that we should which is
remembering it's about him Ithink we will start being able
to see more of the deceptionthat is coming out of the word
of faith and the prosperitygospel and laws of attraction
(26:54):
and all these affirmations thatwe're mantra-ing.
You can't manifest anything.
We aren't God.
We are made in the image of God, but we aren't God.
We don't have that kind ofpower.
Have you had any times in yourlife where you've tried to do
the words of affirmation or thedon't speak anything negative
(27:16):
because it might come true.
Did you ever get really intothe whole manifestation part of
it, I know?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I did.
I never got into that too much.
I mean, I've heard a lot of it.
I've been around a lot ofpeople who do that.
I mean I think I tried it alittle bit, but it really was so
ineffective for me.
It didn't take me long.
I think God taught me as I wasmessing around with that a
little bit.
Yeah, he showed me.
It's just on his end.
It's being grateful.
That's where the power is beinggrateful and learning to be
(27:46):
content, not just shouting outpositive words all the time and
avoiding the negative.
Jesus didn't avoid the negativeeither.
I mean, if you look in hiswords, he didn't always say
pretty words.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah, he called people out.
He said get thee behind me,satan.
To Peter.
So yeah, he didn't mince hiswords.
He wasn't a fluffy bunny sermonpreacher words.
He wasn't a fluffy bunny sermonpreacher.
He told it in as loving a wayas he could to get the point
across and the ones who had earsto hear heard what he said and
(28:21):
did something positive about it,and then everyone else just
went on with their life.
I can't hear you.
And then we wonder why things gowrong, and sometimes they're
out of our control.
They have to do with otherpeople and their decisions.
Other times we need to lookinward and say I think I brought
this on myself and you could bethe most positive person all
(28:42):
the time, saying all thepositive things, manifesting as
much as you want.
But if it doesn't happen, whatdoes that do to your faith?
Was your faith actually genuine?
Do you still trust God, or doyou fall away because you loved
the religion or the leader of itmore than you loved God,
because you didn't have arelationship with God, which is
(29:03):
a scary thought to think about.
But you have to do that now,while you still have time,
because when you die there is notime to have that thought and
to make those judgments.
It's over at that point.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
I have been around so many people who go in this
direction, though and I live inan area that has a lot of this.
I would love to ask some ofthese people do you see fruit
there?
You know what do you see?
Where does the positive wordsgo?
Who are you even saying them to?
I don't understand.
I have a hard timeunderstanding why people
(29:37):
continue that when really itdoesn't work.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, yeah, it's hard when you're in it.
It's a hyper emotional feelingtype of beliefs and I think
that's why it's hard to get outof.
But once you are out of it andyou've been out of it for a
while you start seeing it andyou're like, how do you not see
(30:01):
this?
But I think we have to, insteadof condemning them, we have to
remember how we were when wewere in it, how we felt, how we
were drawn in all these things.
They affected us so deeply andwe wanted to prove, like you
said, we wanted to prove that wehad enough faith, that we were
(30:23):
good Christians, that we lovedGod the right way.
We wanted to prove it.
But that's not how you prove it.
You prove it by livingaccording to God's word, and
this practice is not accordingto God's word because it puts
you back into a form of legalismthat is extremely more toxic
than just following what theBible says and doing it, even
(30:44):
though you don't know why you'redoing it on a different path to
a different Jesus, on top ofputting you in legal bondage to.
You must do this, and if youdon't do it right, you don't
have enough faith.
So increase your faith now.
But how do you increase yourfaith?
That was always my issue is ifI don't have enough faith, and
(31:05):
that's why this isn't happening,how do I increase my faith?
But they never had an actualanswer other than read your
Bible, pray more.
What does pray more mean?
When do you hit that peak thatyou have prayed enough to have
the faith for whatever you'repraying for?
And then, when you name it andclaim it, that doesn't work
either, because I named andclaimed so many different things
(31:28):
, but life got out of hand.
My eldest child is a prodigal.
She's heavy into the wholetransgender stuff.
I named and claimed that shewas for Jesus, that Satan
couldn't have her.
He has her right now.
What am I supposed to do aboutthat?
Am I supposed to just say, well, god is terrible, I don't want
(31:48):
anything to do with him, goodbye.
No, it was not God.
God is terrible, I don't wantanything to do with him.
Goodbye.
No, it was not God.
None of this is of God, andthat's the dangerous part of it
is that you are pulling peopleaway from God when things don't
go their way, because they'veput God and the person they're
following, who's teaching themthese things, in the same
position that they should not be.
(32:09):
In the person you are following,who you glorify, through
believing what they're saying,reading all their books,
following their teachings andthe things they say to do, you
are elevating them to a positionthat they are God or God-like
and you can't touch them.
They know what they're talkingabout so that when something
(32:30):
goes wrong, you associate thatperson as God, and there's no in
between.
It's not.
Oh, this person failed mebecause they're human and they
make mistakes.
It's no, it's God, because youhave turned that person into a
God and you've blurred the linesbetween what's reality and
what's not, and people are notGod.
God may be using some people,but they aren't God, and you
(32:54):
can't blame God when thingsdon't go right in your life,
because he's not the one whotold you to do it that way
anyways.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, and I think it boils down to because we are all
seeking for something to fillus, every single one of us, and
I feel like there's almost anaddictive nature in all of this,
too, because I kept seeking.
That's what addictive nature inall of this, too?
Because I kept seeking, that'swhat brought me to many hen,
because I kept seeking andtrying to.
Yeah, so every someone, inevery single one of these areas,
they're seeking for thatfilling and the problem is it's
(33:25):
not coming.
So you keep going.
It's like gambling, yeah,because you think there's
something, there's going to besomething at the end for you,
and the problem is is is likeyou said, they're, they're
seeking after.
I believe they're seeking forGod, but they're seeking after
the wrong one, and I just praythat God opens people's eyes to
see and I think theseconversations will help so that
(33:48):
they do find the one true God,and he fills them the way they
need to be filled.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
Thank you, Desiree, for comingon today.
This has been a very powerfulconversation that I hope people
have had open hearts to hearingwhat we've said and not just
closed it off because we'rerubbing them wrong or whatever.
And I can't stress it enoughthat we need to stay in the word
(34:16):
and know what it truly says sothat we can discern when
someone's telling us a lie,because it is so easy to get
sucked into this and to stay inthere because it's so
emotionally felt.
It's a very touchy-feely typeof thing and that draws you in
and can keep you, and that isnot healthy.
(34:39):
We're not always going to have amountaintop experience with God
.
A lot of times we're in thevalley and if you aren't open to
that, then you have to submitto God and ask him to help you
get to that place, because thisdoctrine, this faith, healing,
all these things where they aretelling you all these lies, it's
not good, it's very toxic anddraws people away from the
(35:04):
church and ruins people's faith.
So thank you for coming on andsharing your experience and for
just sharing your heart.
I love your book.
Everyone needs to read it.
It's got a lot in there and,yeah, I just love you.
You're so sweet.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
You're so honest.
Thanks for having me on, yeah,and I love being able to talk
about these things.
This is my heart too, which isto talk about those things that
have been in the dark for a longtime and see people free.
That's what I pray for thatthese opportunities just are
more opportunities to share whohe is and what he's done and to
see people free from the placethey're in.
(35:44):
So thanks for the opportunityfor that.
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