April 9, 2025 • 37 mins
Unlock the secrets of joyful scripture engagement with Michelle Nezat, the visionary behind the More Than a Song podcast. Michelle shares her inspiring journey from a Christian upbringing to creating a podcast that bridges the gap between scripture and music.
Michelle's Website: https://michellenezat.com/unlock
Listen to Season Two- a four-part series on Christian music: https://www.honestchristianconversations.com/episodes/season/2/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Before the episode starts.
Make sure you follow the showso you never miss another
episode.
Hey friends, welcome to HonestChristian Conversations.
I am so excited to haveMichelle Nizat with me today.
She is the host of More Than aSong podcast.
I love that podcast.
(00:40):
It's been very instrumental inhelping me find new godly songs
that are out there that I canlisten to and I can trust that
their lyrics are biblicallybased, which is something I'm
all about.
And if you haven't listened tomy four-part series that I did
on season two about music, youdefinitely should listen to it,
(01:03):
because this is the morepositive side from what I took
on mine.
So I love her podcast.
I have yet to read her novel,which I would love to read
someday, and, yes, let's get toit.
So, michelle, go ahead and tellus about your testimony, because
(01:24):
that is what I want to know howdid you get to this place where
you are writing a beautifulnovel and you have such a
profound podcast that doesn'tjust talk about songs, it talks
about them from a biblicalstandpoint and gives us a really
great tool for Bible study,which I know everyone, including
(01:46):
myself, is always looking forone of those.
So this was definitely up myalley because I didn't have to
do too much.
You do all the hard work, whichis awesome.
How did you come to faith inChrist and get to that point
where you have these two amazingresources?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Thanks for having me, anna.
I'm so delighted to be here.
It's an honor.
So I have the privilege ofsaying that I don't ever
remember a time when I didn'tknow Christ, which is the best
testimony, in my opinion.
My grandparents actually led meto the Lord when I was
obviously a very young child, ata time when I didn't have a
memory of it.
I remember being like seven oreight, kind of asking questions
(02:25):
like was it real?
Because I can't remember, andthey really kind of like walked
me through some of the doubtsand, just continuing to seek the
Lord, grew up in a church homeand went off to one year of
Bible college before Itransferred to a state school.
I currently live in Louisiana.
I was born and raised in Idahobut stayed connected with church
(02:52):
, community, biblical community,all of that, and when I became
a mom I wanted to share mybiblical knowledge that I had.
Growing up we did what wascalled Bible quiz, where we
would memorize whole books ofthe Bible and then quiz on them,
and it was in the 1900s when weused the King James Version.
But I will tell you, memorizingKing James is actually quite as
(03:13):
a lot easier than some of theother, just because there's so
many phrases and things likethat that your memory can stick
on.
But we didn't have that for mykids and so I was praying about
how to get it into them and Iwas thinking okay, well, I
remember a song I learned insummer camp 1 John, 4, 7, and 8.
I could sing it for you.
Right now I still remember itand maybe I'll just turn
(03:36):
scripture into songs.
And I tried it and it wasreally lame.
It just didn't come out good.
I mean, there are now peoplewho do it and do it well.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
The Corner Room.
I listen to them.
I don't know if you've heard ofthem.
They do that.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
No, I haven't, I'm going to check them out, but
there's people who do it now andI'm delighted.
But that wasn't my jam, and soI just kept on.
And I remember also just kindof ministering to some new
Christians, and one of the veryfirst things that new believers
do is they will change the musicthat they're listening to.
And so I remember listening toEvery Good Thing by the Afters.
(04:11):
We were on our way to avacation, family vacation, and
the Holy Spirit just said see,michelle, the music's already
been written.
And I was like because in mymind I was thinking I wish my
friend Stacey knew that thatlyric came straight from James,
because if she heard the song itmight remind her of what she
already studied in James,because that's what it was doing
(04:31):
for me.
It was reminding me of not justthat phrase but also the things
I knew that the word of Godsaid around that phrase.
And then I was like, oh, mygoodness, okay, so this is the
direction for this, linkingmusic to scripture.
But how do I do that?
And so that was July, and inNovember I was at a marketing
(04:53):
conference where this guy wasjust talking about podcasting
and he said listen, you'retrying to get found.
You're a needle in a haystackand he was really talking about
blogging and things like that.
He said pick a smaller haystack.
Podcasting is a much smallerhaystack.
It was when I started and Ithought, oh my goodness, this is
(05:16):
it.
Because music is audio.
And so, to capture the idea, ifyou're listening to music and
then you're listening topodcasting, the link was just.
It made sense.
So I launched my podcast inFebruary that next year, 2014.
So I've been podcasting forover a decade.
I was weekly for the longestand then I went biweekly while I
(05:36):
worked on my novel A Seat atthe Table.
But my heart, both in thepodcast and in the novel, is I
want you to discover andmeditate on God's word for
yourself.
And so I realized that somepeople, the Bible is very
daunting and they don't knowwhere to start.
Once they get there, they don'treally know how to overcome
some of the obstacles of how toread it, and so I just really
(06:00):
try to take a practical approach, never forgetting my friend
Stacey, who is now a longtimefollower of Christ.
You know, and so, but at thebeginning, when I just don't, I
don't want it to be a source ofshame or of discouragement for
someone to dig in, even if theyknow better.
I want, I just like it's today.
Like today, like if you'relistening right now and you said
(06:21):
I've set the Bible aside,you're listening right now and
you said I've set the Bibleaside.
I have a character in my novelthat does that she had a reason
and but it's today, like pick itup, don't sit in shame, don't
sit in discouragement.
That's what the enemy wants youto be.
He wants to keep you removedfrom the revealed word of God
which is sitting on yourself.
So that's really how I got toMore Than a Song.
(06:42):
And just to kind of clarify,you're right, the podcast is not
about the music.
So basically, what I did was Isaid okay, look, for example,
let's take the afters.
Every good thing, every goodand perfect gift comes from the
father above, and that's foundin James.
Let's go study James together.
So the music I'm always downfor that.
Yeah, yeah, the music's theinspiration, and then you just
kind of set the song aside andlet's go dive into scripture.
(07:05):
And then at the end you say,okay, well, now that I've done
all this study, when I listen tothis song, let it remind me of
everything I've studied.
My big warning is don't letyour music become your scripture
.
We want to use it.
We want to harness the powerthat it has to remind us of
scripture itself.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I love that so much and, as I said, this was a very
timely kind of podcast for me tocome across because, as I
mentioned, I did a deep diveinto certain worship songs that
may not be biblically sound, andit was like a four-part series
about how some Christian authorsor artists have fallen away
(07:45):
from the faith and that we needto be careful with what we
listen to, even when it comes toChristian music, and that kind
of left me discouraged.
It's like, well, what do Ilisten to?
How can I trust my Christianmusic?
And then, boom, your podcastshows up.
Can I trust my Christian music?
And then, boom, your podcastshows up and I'm like, oh, this
(08:06):
is a perfect way for me to lookat the songs and find out where
it's scriptural.
Maybe I can still salvage someof those songs that I do like,
where some of the lyrics are alittle off but the other ones
aren't, and it's been reallyexciting to go into the podcast.
I get to get my Bible and I getto look through it and maybe
(08:29):
even find a new song, if it'sone that I haven't heard, like a
few of the ones that I've beenlistening to recently are songs
I haven't heard, and youmentioned Shane and Shane in one
of them, and I'm like I loveShane and Shane as well.
Yes, I do too.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, yeah, I mean of course you have.
The premise is that I takesongs that are playing on the
radio and so I really do try tostay at the top of the airplay
charts just because those arethe songs that I just want to
meet you where you are.
But every once in a while I'llsay but it's my podcast, so I'm
going to like slip in a songhere or there that I just
(09:04):
absolutely love, cause I tend tonot necessarily listen to the
radio.
I'm more of a playlist kind ofperson.
And I've seen, and I've seenblog.
Look, I I'm with you in thediscouragement when I see
artists who fall away from thefaith and turn their back on the
truth that they used to singabout that is.
It is so discouraging to thinkand then to wonder how does that
(09:27):
impact the people that maybefollowed them right?
And so I don't think that meansthat you leave your discernment
at the door.
There are certain songs I'mjust not going to feature on the
podcast, just straight up.
I'm not, we're not going to goover those today, because what?
I really want to do is say, findthe ones that do have scripture
, that do have truth.
The other thing I want to sayis they're art.
(09:48):
So I think what happens is,when you try to make those songs
become your doctrine and yourscripture, they are going to
fall flat because they're notintended to do that.
It's a piece of art.
However, again let's swing backto discernment.
There are certain phrases andthings like that that you really
(10:09):
need to be aware of that justmaybe are not as sound as
possible.
So just be as Paul would talkabout, just be a Berean, go
study it for yourself.
You pick it up and say, okay,what does God's word say about
this, and can I sing it?
Maybe there's some songs youjust can't sing in good faith,
but there's other.
I heard a pastor, vice pastor,one time just say, okay, how can
(10:31):
I sing this song in a goodconscience?
How can I go ahead and and I'lljust use a phrase I just don't
think God's love is reckless.
You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Oh, yes, that song was featured in my season, for
sure.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
But as an artist, as a human being, doesn't it feel a
little reckless to love and beloved like that?
I get where the artist iscoming from.
He's not trying, in my opinion,not trying to create doctrine
that teaches us that.
God, if you think that anywherein scripture it says that God's
(11:10):
love is reckless, then Iencourage you to go and read and
do a theme study on what God'slove is defined as and described
as right, so that you could gookay, no, it's not defined as
reckless, but I can see, I don'tlove like that.
That seems risky, that kind oflove seems risky.
(11:31):
So can I sing that song withthat mindset?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, I guess.
Yeah, I'll sometimes if I'msinging it, cause like 99% of
the lyrics are amazing.
It's just that one word that heuses.
In some people it just goeswhatever.
And then others, maybe causewe're writers or something, that
it just hits us different andwe're like we can't handle that
word, so I'll put in a differentone that, in my opinion, is
(11:57):
more of what I think God is, andI'll sing it because it's a
really good song.
It's very biblically based.
Just that one word just kind oftrips a lot of people up.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Right, well, and it tripped me up for a while too.
But I'm like you, we would singit in a church and I was like,
okay, well, I can't just likeleave the room.
So how can I and when I heardthe teaching from this pastor
that basically said, you know,you're a mature Christian
reframe it in your mind?
However, I would say that thewarning is if someone is getting
(12:31):
their theology or theirdoctrine from the music that
they're singing, which is howhymns why they were created, by
the way.
Right, so hymns were created toteach the doctrine and the
teachings of the church.
But I've read a couple of hymnsthat are like, I mean, you
might have been written in the1700s, but that's not in there,
you know.
So it doesn't just because it'snew doesn't mean that it's
(12:52):
wrong, and just because it's olddoesn't mean that it's wrong,
and just because it's olddoesn't mean that it's good.
Just use discernment and thenjust say, okay, that seems
strange to me, or that seemslike a strange word.
So the next thing is, ratherthan having a conversation as to
whether that's a good word ornot, I want you to say what's a
better word.
Let's go.
Can you describe God's love tome what words would come to mind
(13:14):
that you know are in there.
And if you don't have a goodlist, hey, let's do that, let's
get together and talk about thatand maybe share notes and talk
about with a friend, and thenyou come out on the other side
talking about God's steadfastlove, talking about his
compassionate love.
One of the things that I I'mgoing to say I learned honestly
(13:36):
very recently is that all ofGod's characteristics are and
this is, this is a.
I want to tell you this giveyourself permission to know more
today than you did yesterday.
Right, give yourself permissionto know more today.
And I think sometimes, as as aseasoned Christian, we kind of
say I should have known that orwhatever, but anyway.
So, having said that aside, allof God's characteristics are
(13:58):
true at all times, of each othertoo.
So if God is loving and he isjust, then his love is just and
his justice is loving.
And so, as you are learninglet's say you just got inspired
to see, okay, god's love isn'treckless, then what is it?
And you go and you do a themestudy on God's love, then
everything you learn about hischaracteristics of his love are
(14:21):
true at all times.
So if you learn that he'scompassionate in his loving and
he's steadfast in his lovingthose things he's not just
sometimes compassionate andsometimes steadfast and then you
can stack them.
His steadfast love iscompassionate, his compassionate
love is steadfast.
And then you can stack them.
His steadfast love iscompassionate, his compassionate
love is steadfast.
It's beautiful to think aboutthings like that.
(14:42):
So that's where I'm sayinglet's harness what we're already
listening to, what we'realready singing, and use it to
inspire us to study and thenmaybe remind us of what we've
studied.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, and you've come up with a clever acronym for
how you do every episode.
Will you share that with us,what it's called, and give a
brief overview of how it works?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Sure, yeah, okay, so I have BITES.
It helps you take a bite out ofscripture.
It's really cheesy, I know that, but you're going to remember
it now.
And it's B-I-T-E, bibleInteraction Tool Exercise.
And the funny story is, forlike the first hundred episodes,
I would say Bible InteractionTool, bible Interaction Tool.
And I realized that I wassaying it over and over and so I
(15:24):
came to my daughter and I waslike I need an E because bit is
just weird.
I just want to take a bite.
And so we said exercise, andthese are just exercises that I
use personally in my time inGod's Word to keep it varied and
active, and so they might be assimple as reading in context.
One of my favorite bites, whichis if your pastor teaches,
(15:45):
let's say, this Sunday, andintroduces a verse or a group of
verses, go and read the chapterbefore the chapter and the
chapter after, where thoseverses are.
You will then be reading incontext and you will have a
greater understanding of thescripture, how it really fits
into the whole and things likethat.
So that would be a bite readingcontext.
(16:07):
Another bite listen.
I just.
I had a young man in my livingroom the other day he and my
daughter are hopefully going offto the same college next year
and he was saying I've neverread Nehemiah and I was like
dude, you've got to read.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Nehemiah, it's so great.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And he was like I just don't, cause we were
talking about a scene in thestory and he was like I just
don't think I've ever read it.
And I said well, here's whatyou do.
We have a reader's Bible whichtakes out all the chapters and
verses and it's just so you canjust read it like a story.
So I handed him my reader'sBible that had Nehemiah in it
and I was like, put on an epicsoundtrack, music soundtrack and
(16:43):
read Nehemiah.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Lord of the Rings is always a favorite.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, like Lord of the Rings or Gladiator or
something, or Narnia, and you'vegot this like swelling music
and you've got these guysbuilding walls with a trowel in
one hand and a sword in theother and you've got like these
enemies without and fear withinand all these beautiful scenes.
And so he was like I'm going totry that.
He's like into film and stufflike that.
So he's like that actuallysounds pretty cool.
(17:06):
So things like that simpleexercises.
A lot of times I learn them frompeople like you.
Like what's your favorite wayto mix it up when you are
studying God's word?
I, um, I'm reading Jeremiahright now and in chapters two
through six there are 19questions, 19.
(17:30):
So I'm writing them all down,like as I as I uh go through it.
So what is that?
Well, that's making a list andthat's like identifying
repetitive, you know, words orphrases or or things, so, so
those are two different bites.
I've identified that there's abunch of questions in here.
When I read through it I said,wow, that's so interesting.
Let me slow down and go backand look at those questions.
So those are just.
I mean I have got over 20,almost 30 bites and I add to my
(17:53):
list all the time of justdifferent ways that the
commitment I make to myself andalso to my listener is that I'm
actually doing it in my ownstudy, so I really don't want to
get to a place where I tell youwhat I have done and I stop
doing it, and that, honestly,has been really grounding for me
.
You know, because I'm just likeyou.
(18:15):
There are busy seasons andthere are just different times
in life where you're just like,okay, the things that I was
doing before just doesn't seemto resonate in my spirit anymore
or I'm just not inspired to goread it.
So if I'm doing that, then Ijust need to mix it up a little
bit, try something new.
And you know I've had listenersemail me back and say, okay,
you've ruined me.
(18:36):
I can't read anything out ofcontext.
Now I'm like constantly readinglike two and three chapters at
a time, because I can't justread one verse and I was like
praise God, yeah yeah, it'salways important to read it in
context.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
That's something I've been doing a lot more lately,
just because you never know.
I mean, we always cherry pickverses, but we understand, was
that actually something weshould be claiming for ourself
or was that specific to thattime and those people?
And it's always interesting toread everything in context and
(19:09):
say, oh okay, well, I understandnow why they said that, right,
yeah, so I definitely love thebite in everything involved in
your podcast.
Oh, I'm so glad.
But before we get to your story, it seems that your faith has
been very deep from the verybeginning.
(19:29):
Was there ever a time where youstrayed?
I mean, I know we all have ourmoments where maybe we've
doubted, but did you have amoment where it was more than
just a moment?
Or have you always stayed closeto God?
Who doesn't love free?
(19:51):
I know I do.
That's why I created a freeseven-day devotional for those
who want to go deeper with God.
It's a short devotional full ofencouragement, guidance and
impactful Bible verses relatedto everyday struggles we all go
through.
I know you will love thisdevotional as much as I enjoyed
writing it and since it'sdigital, you can do it anywhere,
(20:15):
anytime, perfect for the personalways on the go.
Get the free devotional whenyou sign up for my mailing list.
The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yeah, I can honestly say that I've always stayed
close to the Lord.
However, I am closer now than Iwas and there were some key
moments, some key turning pointsfor me.
So I have had exposure to likea Bible college where you know
the people that were in Biblecollege were.
I used to say that some ofthose girls were there for their
(20:48):
MRS degree to get married and Iwas not like one of those.
So in my journey I wanted to bea foreign missionary.
I just thought that's what Godwas calling me to do.
And so I went and I asked themissionary guy.
I was like what should I doublemajor in?
(21:09):
I want to go into some of theseclosed countries where it's,
you know, they're not like hey,come on over and you know, let's
come to China and be aChristian.
That's just not like the thing.
That was there.
And so he was like, oh, itdoesn't matter, you're going to
go wherever your husband goesanyway.
So that was a bit of a turningpoint, because I just remember
thinking, I just don't know if Ican sit under the sky for four
(21:31):
years I just philosophically,and the Lord just really turned
the ship a little bit tomanagement and marketing, which
is what I ended up majoring inand graduating in and honestly
using to create online Biblestudies and writing and things
like that.
So things like where you thinkthat you're following in one
direction or that maybe you'vegotten it wrong, the Lord can
(21:53):
steer you in a differentdirection.
And I was pretty faithful, youknow.
But I will say one of theturning points was when I was a
young married, there was aprogram at our church where they
would match older women withyounger women, following the
Titus, titus two kind of idea,and interestingly enough they
(22:14):
had more younger women sign upthan older women, because
younger women were desperate tobe mentored by older women and
the older women did not feelequipped or like like they could
or should do it, yeah, whichwas so discouraging at the time.
Of course, now I'm an olderwoman, but whatever we won't go
there.
So what happened was a reallygood friend of mine, which we
(22:36):
became closer through thisprocess, got matched with one
older woman, and so my friendDana and I were sitting there
with her and she looked at usand said, okay, as she's trying
to get to know us, she's like so, tell me about your day, do you
like pray every day?
Do you read your Bible everyday?
And like, like, tell, tell meabout your spiritual practices.
And we were like, I mean, we,you know we, we pray, we read
(22:57):
our Bible, you know things likethat.
She's like that'snon-negotiable.
And I remember sitting back andjust saying, yes, ma'am, and I
remember at that moment justsomeone saying, like it wasn't
someone guilting me into somequiet time or this, that or
whatever.
She didn't tell me how to do it, she just said it's
(23:19):
non-negotiable.
You are a follower of Christ,you have to follow, and the only
way you can follow is to readHis word and to be like Him.
And he was a praying man.
And so it was a shift in mypersonal walk, where it shifted,
I think, from not even acultural thing, because I don't
(23:42):
think I was ever even just acultural Christian.
I mean I was active inministries and things like that.
So that's another thing too.
You could just you could haveit, all all these different
steps on the outside and thenstill be disconnected from the
very place that God wants tospeak to you.
And you can listen to othersermons and you can well.
You know what that means.
(24:02):
That means they spent time withJesus in his word and God
revealed something to them.
Praise God.
And they shared it with you.
Praise God, it's all part ofthe story.
But don't you want that foryourself?
Don't you want that experiencewhere you go and you spend time
with him and he reveals himselfto you?
And so that shifted for me.
(24:22):
And then I would say, when Iwent out on this journey to do
the podcast over a decade ago,that has completely transformed
my life, because I felt like Iwas accountable to someone else,
you know.
And so and again, I made apromise to myself and to my
listeners that I would be in theword too.
I wouldn't just go on spiritualfumes.
And I've I've done a fewreplays, don't get me wrong but
(24:42):
I mean, I'm not going to go pickup something that I had not
studied myself and talk about it.
I think that's made adifference.
And then another shift even inthe middle of the podcast I just
got exposed to some betterteaching and some deeper
teaching on theology anddoctrine and how to seek out
good sources to deepen my faithin that.
So I think if you listen toepisode one and you kind of go
(25:06):
maybe five years in and thenkeep listening, you will see
kind of a shift in the depth ofmy teaching, because I had a
greater depth in my reading andunderstanding.
So I still want to keep thatwhere it's really accessible.
But I'm hoping to bring some ofthose deeper things to the
table where you can kind of go.
I didn't even think about that.
(25:27):
I had not had good teaching on,for example, the metanarrative
of scripture, the fact that all66 books are woven together to
tell one big story of our Savior.
I think if somebody would havesaid that I would have been like
, I mean, okay, but I got betterteaching on that.
So as I grew as a believer, ithas come out and in the way I
(25:50):
teach and what I share andthings like that.
And then of course, god's justused all of it, all of the
relationships and all of theexperience and the education and
all of that to kind of bring meto this place where I am today.
That's good.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
It's always refreshing to hear stories of
people who didn't take a bigdetour.
I took a big detour for severalyears where I chose not to
follow Christ and before that Ifelt I had a really squeaky
clean testimony.
And a lot of people who havethose feel that maybe their
(26:25):
testimony is not powerful and Ilike to tell them that's not
true, because your testimony isprobably someone else's
testimony as well and they needto hear that they aren't alone,
because Satan's probably goingto make them feel alone so that
they don't share their testimony.
But it's important to hear fromthose who have never strayed
from the faith as well.
(26:45):
It doesn't make them any lessbecause they don't have scars to
talk about.
That should be encouraging tous that it can be done.
There are times in life whereyou can stay strong.
Even when things are thrown atyou, you can still stay strong
in faith and in God and youdon't have to turn away.
And yeah, I think that'samazing that you were able to
(27:07):
hold onto your faith eventhrough the times where you were
confused on what to do or howto do it, and that you're just
deepening your faith every timeyou do an episode of your
podcast, and I can see why, likeyou said, you're always adding
on new bites.
It's a very complex design thatyou have created for your
podcast on how to study the wordand it's awesome.
(27:33):
I really love it and it'sdefinitely helping me and
encouraging me on how to havenew ways of studying the Bible,
because I've been feelingstagnant for a while and needing
a change and I come from alegalistic type of background,
so I don't want to get toolegalistic with anything I do,
(27:54):
but I do love following apattern and it just makes me
feel more at peace.
It's like I wouldn't know how todo it myself and then, if I do
it myself, I feel like, well, Ifeel like somebody else has done
this and I picked it up fromthem somehow.
Like somebody else has donethis and I picked it up from
them somehow.
So it's not really mine and Ijust want to get deeper with God
(28:20):
, like I once did, and enjoyreading my Bible, and I want my
kids to see that it is okay toenjoy reading your Bible.
So I will take what I can getwhere I can get it and as long
as I keep it from becominglegalistic again, that's where I
focus is.
Is this helping or is thismaking me feel that I have to do
it at this specific time, or?
(28:41):
like this and I never want tofeel like that.
And when I do start feelinglike that, I take a pause and
say, okay, if I don't read myBible at this specific time
because I'm busy and I can't doit at this time, that doesn't
mean God's going to be mad at mefor not doing it at nine in the
morning on this specific day,when I have to go rush to go do
(29:03):
something else that's importantat that moment God understands
and I will give him my time.
And sometimes mentally I don'tknow if you're this way, but if
I've got a lot of things on mymind, I don't want to read the
Bible while I got all thosethings on my mind.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I want to get them out of the way.
It doesn't work anyway.
I start thinking about themExactly.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
So I'll get them out of the way first and then I'll
go, because then I feel like Ican actually give God my time
and I will be more focused.
Sometimes I feel guilty doingthat because I'm like no, god
should come first.
But then I remind myself youdid pray this morning.
You put him first.
You're listening to music firstin the morning.
It's not going to be a dealbreaker with God if you wait a
(29:44):
few hours to read your Biblebecause you don't want to read
it distracted.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Well, and I find, like what I introduce on the
podcast is like I'm going tocall it like a scatter pattern.
I mean like there's not, youknow, because there's so many
different ways that you caninteract with God's word.
It's not like a step one, two,three and four, which I'm a fan
of.
those two, don't get me wrong,I'm a big fan of those, and I
think you'll find that, as youlisten, I've got my favorites.
So I do sometimes repeat someof the things that are my
(30:14):
favorites on the regular, but Ialso think you're touching on
something that's so wise Listento the voice.
The more that you're in theword, then you're going to hear
the voice of the father.
You're going to understand whathis voice sounds like.
So listen to the voice that'stalking to you.
The voice of shame is not thevoice of our father.
The voice of shame is from theenemy.
(30:34):
Conviction, however, is from thefather.
So if he says it's been a while, it's been a while and I just
want to be with you and I don'tneed you to, sometimes he'll say
this to me.
I don't need you to make a list, michelle, I just want you to
sit with me, and I'm a consumerof information, and so, for me,
(30:59):
the more the better, right.
So a fulfilling study timewould mean I'm either consuming
a lot of information orproducing a lot of information.
And so the father.
For me, his thing is like slowyour roll.
To me, a thousand years is as aday, and days is a thousand
years.
My time is different than yourtime, so that's what he's just
(31:22):
been telling me.
Another thing, too, is, whenyou get so stuck into a
legalistic like this is the wayI have to do it, or this is the
right way to study my Bible orread my Bible or whatever, then
you miss out on different things, like listening to the Bible is
not a bad idea, and sometimesyou're like, oh, but I'm not,
I'm not able to focus, andthat's probably true too.
Sometimes I just can't listen.
(31:43):
I have to listen to musicinstead of the word or whatever,
but it still counts.
You know, I was talking to afellow podcaster the other day
and he was like yeah, I was in achurch one time where,
basically, they taught thepeople in the church that unless
they had a physical Bible intheir hands, that it didn't
count.
So all these young people withreading their Bibles on their
phone, or maybe people who havea hard time reading, who are
(32:04):
listening, they basically toldthem that that didn't count.
And I was just like no, itcounts.
It counts it's finding waysthat you can connect with the
Lord.
Also, I'm a fan of reading more,because I think we're a
bite-sized culture, but I'm alsoa fan of reading less.
I mean reading less, butrepetitively so that it can sink
(32:28):
in.
And I mean, one of my favoriteepisodes was I did Psalm 23
recently and I can't rememberthe number of the episode, but
more people have commented ortexted or emailed or whatever on
this episode.
It was just really meaningfulto them, I think.
Because it was mostly reallymeaningful to me.
It was just a time where Iwould go on my walks and I would
recite Psalm 23.
(32:48):
It's six verses.
I learned how to internalize itand then I would meditate on it
and process it and talk to theLord about it and it would
change my prayers and all thesedifferent things.
But it was six verses, so itwas just easier to kind of sit
in that place with Him.
And even though I'm a fan ofmore, this was less is more kind
of a moment.
(33:08):
So I agree with you.
I mean some of that is and Ilove that you're finding new
ways whether it's my podcast orother people to go okay, wait, I
just need to mix it up a littlebit.
I need to recognize that Godwants us, he doesn't, and he
wants us to want Him.
There's a time where the word ofGod can become an academic
(33:29):
pursuit.
Well, he doesn't want thateither.
He's a fan of, like you know,us making these wonderful
connections.
I think it thrills him, itdelights him just as much as it
delights us.
But it's not purely an academicpursuit.
It is his revealed word to usso that we can have a right
relationship with him.
And so when we get thatdoctrine right I guess that's
(33:51):
why I wrote my novel A Seat atthe Table is because I wanted to
introduce these ideas of theauthority of scripture, that
God's word is inspired by him,it's inerrant, it's without
error, it is eternal, it issufficient, all these big ideas
that maybe you don't want to gopick up a commentary and read
about.
But maybe if I could show you ina story what those kinds of
things are and how it matters,because if we could say I
(34:14):
believe that God's word is God'sword, I believe that the Bible
is God's word, and you're like,okay, then why don't you read it
or follow it or allow it totransform the way you think?
So then either you don't reallybelieve that it's his word or
you need to let it sink in alittle bit that this is how God
(34:34):
wants to relate to you and he'sprotected it and preserved it
over all this time so that wecould have right relationship
with him.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Sounds like it's a beautiful novel.
I'll have to pick that up, yeahthank you.
I'll have to pick that up.
Yeah, thank you.
Well, michelle, this has beenan amazing conversation and I am
so excited to continuelistening to your podcast and I
will definitely have to get yourbook, because you have such a
powerful love for the word.
(35:04):
I can hear it in every episodethat I've listened to, every
episode that I've listened to,and you've just given so many
different ways to study theBible that there's almost no
excuse for anyone to say I don'tknow how, just listen to one
episode and pick something.
There's so many different waysand we need more people who have
(35:24):
a passion like that to helpothers really study the Word,
not just give it to them, buthelp them become more mature to
where they can do it forthemselves and then they can do
it for their families, theirfriends, new believers.
And yeah, I mean, like you said, you and I are older women now,
so we should be training theyounger women.
(35:45):
What better way than with yourpodcast, with the bites, with
the things that we learn in ourdaily lives, the struggles we go
through, all those things?
So you have touched on somemega awesome ideas, passions,
and I'm pretty sure you're goingto get a lot more subscribers
to your podcast because everyoneloves music and, as a believer,
(36:10):
they're always hungry for more.
How can I learn more about Godand who he is?
How can I go deeper?
So thank you so much for comingon the podcast and sharing your
amazing resources.
Where can they go if they wantmore information from you?
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Well, I really appreciate the invitation.
I'm honored.
I know that you treasure yourlisteners as much as I treasure
mine, and so we want to makesure that we're giving them the
information and the resourcesthat they need.
So what I've done is I've puttogether some free resources for
them.
So if they go tomichellekneesatcom forward slash
, unlock they're going to unlocka couple of bonuses that I've
put together, but on that pagethey're going to unlock a couple
(36:51):
of bonuses that I've puttogether, but on that page I put
links to the podcast, links tothe book and socials, but also
some free resources for them todownload some Bible interaction
tools, download some free video,bible studies and things like
that, both related to thepodcast and the book.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
So it's michellekneesatcom forward slash
unlock Awesome, and we'll makesure we put that in the show
notes.
That way, everyone has thatopportunity.
So thank you again, michelle,for coming on.
I've enjoyed our time together.
Thanks, ana, I've reallyenjoyed getting to know you.
Before the episode starts.
Make sure you follow the showso you never miss another
episode.
Hey friends, welcome to HonestChristian Conversations.
I am so excited to haveMichelle Nizat with me today.
She is the host of More Than aSong podcast.
I love that podcast.
(00:40):
It's been very instrumental inhelping me find new godly songs
that are out there that I canlisten to and I can trust that
their lyrics are biblicallybased, which is something I'm
all about.
And if you haven't listened tomy four-part series that I did
on season two about music, youdefinitely should listen to it,
(01:03):
because this is the morepositive side from what I took
on mine.
So I love her podcast.
I have yet to read her novel,which I would love to read
someday, and, yes, let's get toit.
So, michelle, go ahead and tellus about your testimony, because
(01:24):
that is what I want to know howdid you get to this place where
you are writing a beautifulnovel and you have such a
profound podcast that doesn'tjust talk about songs, it talks
about them from a biblicalstandpoint and gives us a really
great tool for Bible study,which I know everyone, including
(01:46):
myself, is always looking forone of those.
So this was definitely up myalley because I didn't have to
do too much.
You do all the hard work, whichis awesome.
How did you come to faith inChrist and get to that point
where you have these two amazingresources?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Thanks for having me, anna.
I'm so delighted to be here.
It's an honor.
So I have the privilege ofsaying that I don't ever
remember a time when I didn'tknow Christ, which is the best
testimony, in my opinion.
My grandparents actually led meto the Lord when I was
obviously a very young child, ata time when I didn't have a
memory of it.
I remember being like seven oreight, kind of asking questions
(02:25):
like was it real?
Because I can't remember, andthey really kind of like walked
me through some of the doubtsand, just continuing to seek the
Lord, grew up in a church homeand went off to one year of
Bible college before Itransferred to a state school.
I currently live in Louisiana.
I was born and raised in Idahobut stayed connected with church
(02:52):
, community, biblical community,all of that, and when I became
a mom I wanted to share mybiblical knowledge that I had.
Growing up we did what wascalled Bible quiz, where we
would memorize whole books ofthe Bible and then quiz on them,
and it was in the 1900s when weused the King James Version.
But I will tell you, memorizingKing James is actually quite as
(03:13):
a lot easier than some of theother, just because there's so
many phrases and things likethat that your memory can stick
on.
But we didn't have that for mykids and so I was praying about
how to get it into them and Iwas thinking okay, well, I
remember a song I learned insummer camp 1 John, 4, 7, and 8.
I could sing it for you.
Right now I still remember itand maybe I'll just turn
(03:36):
scripture into songs.
And I tried it and it wasreally lame.
It just didn't come out good.
I mean, there are now peoplewho do it and do it well.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
The Corner Room.
I listen to them.
I don't know if you've heard ofthem.
They do that.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
No, I haven't, I'm going to check them out, but
there's people who do it now andI'm delighted.
But that wasn't my jam, and soI just kept on.
And I remember also just kindof ministering to some new
Christians, and one of the veryfirst things that new believers
do is they will change the musicthat they're listening to.
And so I remember listening toEvery Good Thing by the Afters.
(04:11):
We were on our way to avacation, family vacation, and
the Holy Spirit just said see,michelle, the music's already
been written.
And I was like because in mymind I was thinking I wish my
friend Stacey knew that thatlyric came straight from James,
because if she heard the song itmight remind her of what she
already studied in James,because that's what it was doing
(04:31):
for me.
It was reminding me of not justthat phrase but also the things
I knew that the word of Godsaid around that phrase.
And then I was like, oh, mygoodness, okay, so this is the
direction for this, linkingmusic to scripture.
But how do I do that?
And so that was July, and inNovember I was at a marketing
(04:53):
conference where this guy wasjust talking about podcasting
and he said listen, you'retrying to get found.
You're a needle in a haystackand he was really talking about
blogging and things like that.
He said pick a smaller haystack.
Podcasting is a much smallerhaystack.
It was when I started and Ithought, oh my goodness, this is
(05:16):
it.
Because music is audio.
And so, to capture the idea, ifyou're listening to music and
then you're listening topodcasting, the link was just.
It made sense.
So I launched my podcast inFebruary that next year, 2014.
So I've been podcasting forover a decade.
I was weekly for the longestand then I went biweekly while I
(05:36):
worked on my novel A Seat atthe Table.
But my heart, both in thepodcast and in the novel, is I
want you to discover andmeditate on God's word for
yourself.
And so I realized that somepeople, the Bible is very
daunting and they don't knowwhere to start.
Once they get there, they don'treally know how to overcome
some of the obstacles of how toread it, and so I just really
(06:00):
try to take a practical approach, never forgetting my friend
Stacey, who is now a longtimefollower of Christ.
You know, and so, but at thebeginning, when I just don't, I
don't want it to be a source ofshame or of discouragement for
someone to dig in, even if theyknow better.
I want, I just like it's today.
Like today, like if you'relistening right now and you said
(06:21):
I've set the Bible aside,you're listening right now and
you said I've set the Bibleaside.
I have a character in my novelthat does that she had a reason
and but it's today, like pick itup, don't sit in shame, don't
sit in discouragement.
That's what the enemy wants youto be.
He wants to keep you removedfrom the revealed word of God
which is sitting on yourself.
So that's really how I got toMore Than a Song.
(06:42):
And just to kind of clarify,you're right, the podcast is not
about the music.
So basically, what I did was Isaid okay, look, for example,
let's take the afters.
Every good thing, every goodand perfect gift comes from the
father above, and that's foundin James.
Let's go study James together.
So the music I'm always downfor that.
Yeah, yeah, the music's theinspiration, and then you just
kind of set the song aside andlet's go dive into scripture.
(07:05):
And then at the end you say,okay, well, now that I've done
all this study, when I listen tothis song, let it remind me of
everything I've studied.
My big warning is don't letyour music become your scripture
.
We want to use it.
We want to harness the powerthat it has to remind us of
scripture itself.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I love that so much and, as I said, this was a very
timely kind of podcast for me tocome across because, as I
mentioned, I did a deep diveinto certain worship songs that
may not be biblically sound, andit was like a four-part series
about how some Christian authorsor artists have fallen away
(07:45):
from the faith and that we needto be careful with what we
listen to, even when it comes toChristian music, and that kind
of left me discouraged.
It's like, well, what do Ilisten to?
How can I trust my Christianmusic?
And then, boom, your podcastshows up.
Can I trust my Christian music?
And then, boom, your podcastshows up and I'm like, oh, this
(08:06):
is a perfect way for me to lookat the songs and find out where
it's scriptural.
Maybe I can still salvage someof those songs that I do like,
where some of the lyrics are alittle off but the other ones
aren't, and it's been reallyexciting to go into the podcast.
I get to get my Bible and I getto look through it and maybe
(08:29):
even find a new song, if it'sone that I haven't heard, like a
few of the ones that I've beenlistening to recently are songs
I haven't heard, and youmentioned Shane and Shane in one
of them, and I'm like I loveShane and Shane as well.
Yes, I do too.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, yeah, I mean of course you have.
The premise is that I takesongs that are playing on the
radio and so I really do try tostay at the top of the airplay
charts just because those arethe songs that I just want to
meet you where you are.
But every once in a while I'llsay but it's my podcast, so I'm
going to like slip in a songhere or there that I just
(09:04):
absolutely love, cause I tend tonot necessarily listen to the
radio.
I'm more of a playlist kind ofperson.
And I've seen, and I've seenblog.
Look, I I'm with you in thediscouragement when I see
artists who fall away from thefaith and turn their back on the
truth that they used to singabout that is.
It is so discouraging to thinkand then to wonder how does that
(09:27):
impact the people that maybefollowed them right?
And so I don't think that meansthat you leave your discernment
at the door.
There are certain songs I'mjust not going to feature on the
podcast, just straight up.
I'm not, we're not going to goover those today, because what?
I really want to do is say, findthe ones that do have scripture
, that do have truth.
The other thing I want to sayis they're art.
(09:48):
So I think what happens is,when you try to make those songs
become your doctrine and yourscripture, they are going to
fall flat because they're notintended to do that.
It's a piece of art.
However, again let's swing backto discernment.
There are certain phrases andthings like that that you really
(10:09):
need to be aware of that justmaybe are not as sound as
possible.
So just be as Paul would talkabout, just be a Berean, go
study it for yourself.
You pick it up and say, okay,what does God's word say about
this, and can I sing it?
Maybe there's some songs youjust can't sing in good faith,
but there's other.
I heard a pastor, vice pastor,one time just say, okay, how can
(10:31):
I sing this song in a goodconscience?
How can I go ahead and and I'lljust use a phrase I just don't
think God's love is reckless.
You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Oh, yes, that song was featured in my season, for
sure.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
But as an artist, as a human being, doesn't it feel a
little reckless to love and beloved like that?
I get where the artist iscoming from.
He's not trying, in my opinion,not trying to create doctrine
that teaches us that.
God, if you think that anywherein scripture it says that God's
(11:10):
love is reckless, then Iencourage you to go and read and
do a theme study on what God'slove is defined as and described
as right, so that you could gookay, no, it's not defined as
reckless, but I can see, I don'tlove like that.
That seems risky, that kind oflove seems risky.
(11:31):
So can I sing that song withthat mindset?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, I guess.
Yeah, I'll sometimes if I'msinging it, cause like 99% of
the lyrics are amazing.
It's just that one word that heuses.
In some people it just goeswhatever.
And then others, maybe causewe're writers or something, that
it just hits us different andwe're like we can't handle that
word, so I'll put in a differentone that, in my opinion, is
(11:57):
more of what I think God is, andI'll sing it because it's a
really good song.
It's very biblically based.
Just that one word just kind oftrips a lot of people up.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Right, well, and it tripped me up for a while too.
But I'm like you, we would singit in a church and I was like,
okay, well, I can't just likeleave the room.
So how can I and when I heardthe teaching from this pastor
that basically said, you know,you're a mature Christian
reframe it in your mind?
However, I would say that thewarning is if someone is getting
(12:31):
their theology or theirdoctrine from the music that
they're singing, which is howhymns why they were created, by
the way.
Right, so hymns were created toteach the doctrine and the
teachings of the church.
But I've read a couple of hymnsthat are like, I mean, you
might have been written in the1700s, but that's not in there,
you know.
So it doesn't just because it'snew doesn't mean that it's
(12:52):
wrong, and just because it's olddoesn't mean that it's wrong,
and just because it's olddoesn't mean that it's good.
Just use discernment and thenjust say, okay, that seems
strange to me, or that seemslike a strange word.
So the next thing is, ratherthan having a conversation as to
whether that's a good word ornot, I want you to say what's a
better word.
Let's go.
Can you describe God's love tome what words would come to mind
(13:14):
that you know are in there.
And if you don't have a goodlist, hey, let's do that, let's
get together and talk about thatand maybe share notes and talk
about with a friend, and thenyou come out on the other side
talking about God's steadfastlove, talking about his
compassionate love.
One of the things that I I'mgoing to say I learned honestly
(13:36):
very recently is that all ofGod's characteristics are and
this is, this is a.
I want to tell you this giveyourself permission to know more
today than you did yesterday.
Right, give yourself permissionto know more today.
And I think sometimes, as as aseasoned Christian, we kind of
say I should have known that orwhatever, but anyway.
So, having said that aside, allof God's characteristics are
(13:58):
true at all times, of each othertoo.
So if God is loving and he isjust, then his love is just and
his justice is loving.
And so, as you are learninglet's say you just got inspired
to see, okay, god's love isn'treckless, then what is it?
And you go and you do a themestudy on God's love, then
everything you learn about hischaracteristics of his love are
(14:21):
true at all times.
So if you learn that he'scompassionate in his loving and
he's steadfast in his lovingthose things he's not just
sometimes compassionate andsometimes steadfast and then you
can stack them.
His steadfast love iscompassionate, his compassionate
love is steadfast.
And then you can stack them.
His steadfast love iscompassionate, his compassionate
love is steadfast.
It's beautiful to think aboutthings like that.
(14:42):
So that's where I'm sayinglet's harness what we're already
listening to, what we'realready singing, and use it to
inspire us to study and thenmaybe remind us of what we've
studied.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, and you've come up with a clever acronym for
how you do every episode.
Will you share that with us,what it's called, and give a
brief overview of how it works?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Sure, yeah, okay, so I have BITES.
It helps you take a bite out ofscripture.
It's really cheesy, I know that, but you're going to remember
it now.
And it's B-I-T-E, bibleInteraction Tool Exercise.
And the funny story is, forlike the first hundred episodes,
I would say Bible InteractionTool, bible Interaction Tool.
And I realized that I wassaying it over and over and so I
(15:24):
came to my daughter and I waslike I need an E because bit is
just weird.
I just want to take a bite.
And so we said exercise, andthese are just exercises that I
use personally in my time inGod's Word to keep it varied and
active, and so they might be assimple as reading in context.
One of my favorite bites, whichis if your pastor teaches,
(15:45):
let's say, this Sunday, andintroduces a verse or a group of
verses, go and read the chapterbefore the chapter and the
chapter after, where thoseverses are.
You will then be reading incontext and you will have a
greater understanding of thescripture, how it really fits
into the whole and things likethat.
So that would be a bite readingcontext.
(16:07):
Another bite listen.
I just.
I had a young man in my livingroom the other day he and my
daughter are hopefully going offto the same college next year
and he was saying I've neverread Nehemiah and I was like
dude, you've got to read.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Nehemiah, it's so great.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And he was like I just don't, cause we were
talking about a scene in thestory and he was like I just
don't think I've ever read it.
And I said well, here's whatyou do.
We have a reader's Bible whichtakes out all the chapters and
verses and it's just so you canjust read it like a story.
So I handed him my reader'sBible that had Nehemiah in it
and I was like, put on an epicsoundtrack, music soundtrack and
(16:43):
read Nehemiah.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Lord of the Rings is always a favorite.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, like Lord of the Rings or Gladiator or
something, or Narnia, and you'vegot this like swelling music
and you've got these guysbuilding walls with a trowel in
one hand and a sword in theother and you've got like these
enemies without and fear withinand all these beautiful scenes.
And so he was like I'm going totry that.
He's like into film and stufflike that.
So he's like that actuallysounds pretty cool.
(17:06):
So things like that simpleexercises.
A lot of times I learn them frompeople like you.
Like what's your favorite wayto mix it up when you are
studying God's word?
I, um, I'm reading Jeremiahright now and in chapters two
through six there are 19questions, 19.
(17:30):
So I'm writing them all down,like as I as I uh go through it.
So what is that?
Well, that's making a list andthat's like identifying
repetitive, you know, words orphrases or or things, so, so
those are two different bites.
I've identified that there's abunch of questions in here.
When I read through it I said,wow, that's so interesting.
Let me slow down and go backand look at those questions.
So those are just.
I mean I have got over 20,almost 30 bites and I add to my
(17:53):
list all the time of justdifferent ways that the
commitment I make to myself andalso to my listener is that I'm
actually doing it in my ownstudy, so I really don't want to
get to a place where I tell youwhat I have done and I stop
doing it, and that, honestly,has been really grounding for me
.
You know, because I'm just likeyou.
(18:15):
There are busy seasons andthere are just different times
in life where you're just like,okay, the things that I was
doing before just doesn't seemto resonate in my spirit anymore
or I'm just not inspired to goread it.
So if I'm doing that, then Ijust need to mix it up a little
bit, try something new.
And you know I've had listenersemail me back and say, okay,
you've ruined me.
(18:36):
I can't read anything out ofcontext.
Now I'm like constantly readinglike two and three chapters at
a time, because I can't justread one verse and I was like
praise God, yeah yeah, it'salways important to read it in
context.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
That's something I've been doing a lot more lately,
just because you never know.
I mean, we always cherry pickverses, but we understand, was
that actually something weshould be claiming for ourself
or was that specific to thattime and those people?
And it's always interesting toread everything in context and
(19:09):
say, oh okay, well, I understandnow why they said that, right,
yeah, so I definitely love thebite in everything involved in
your podcast.
Oh, I'm so glad.
But before we get to your story, it seems that your faith has
been very deep from the verybeginning.
(19:29):
Was there ever a time where youstrayed?
I mean, I know we all have ourmoments where maybe we've
doubted, but did you have amoment where it was more than
just a moment?
Or have you always stayed closeto God?
Who doesn't love free?
(19:51):
I know I do.
That's why I created a freeseven-day devotional for those
who want to go deeper with God.
It's a short devotional full ofencouragement, guidance and
impactful Bible verses relatedto everyday struggles we all go
through.
I know you will love thisdevotional as much as I enjoyed
writing it and since it'sdigital, you can do it anywhere,
(20:15):
anytime, perfect for the personalways on the go.
Get the free devotional whenyou sign up for my mailing list.
The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yeah, I can honestly say that I've always stayed
close to the Lord.
However, I am closer now than Iwas and there were some key
moments, some key turning pointsfor me.
So I have had exposure to likea Bible college where you know
the people that were in Biblecollege were.
I used to say that some ofthose girls were there for their
(20:48):
MRS degree to get married and Iwas not like one of those.
So in my journey I wanted to bea foreign missionary.
I just thought that's what Godwas calling me to do.
And so I went and I asked themissionary guy.
I was like what should I doublemajor in?
(21:09):
I want to go into some of theseclosed countries where it's,
you know, they're not like hey,come on over and you know, let's
come to China and be aChristian.
That's just not like the thing.
That was there.
And so he was like, oh, itdoesn't matter, you're going to
go wherever your husband goesanyway.
So that was a bit of a turningpoint, because I just remember
thinking, I just don't know if Ican sit under the sky for four
(21:31):
years I just philosophically,and the Lord just really turned
the ship a little bit tomanagement and marketing, which
is what I ended up majoring inand graduating in and honestly
using to create online Biblestudies and writing and things
like that.
So things like where you thinkthat you're following in one
direction or that maybe you'vegotten it wrong, the Lord can
(21:53):
steer you in a differentdirection.
And I was pretty faithful, youknow.
But I will say one of theturning points was when I was a
young married, there was aprogram at our church where they
would match older women withyounger women, following the
Titus, titus two kind of idea,and interestingly enough they
(22:14):
had more younger women sign upthan older women, because
younger women were desperate tobe mentored by older women and
the older women did not feelequipped or like like they could
or should do it, yeah, whichwas so discouraging at the time.
Of course, now I'm an olderwoman, but whatever we won't go
there.
So what happened was a reallygood friend of mine, which we
(22:36):
became closer through thisprocess, got matched with one
older woman, and so my friendDana and I were sitting there
with her and she looked at usand said, okay, as she's trying
to get to know us, she's like so, tell me about your day, do you
like pray every day?
Do you read your Bible everyday?
And like, like, tell, tell meabout your spiritual practices.
And we were like, I mean, we,you know we, we pray, we read
(22:57):
our Bible, you know things likethat.
She's like that'snon-negotiable.
And I remember sitting back andjust saying, yes, ma'am, and I
remember at that moment justsomeone saying, like it wasn't
someone guilting me into somequiet time or this, that or
whatever.
She didn't tell me how to do it, she just said it's
(23:19):
non-negotiable.
You are a follower of Christ,you have to follow, and the only
way you can follow is to readHis word and to be like Him.
And he was a praying man.
And so it was a shift in mypersonal walk, where it shifted,
I think, from not even acultural thing, because I don't
(23:42):
think I was ever even just acultural Christian.
I mean I was active inministries and things like that.
So that's another thing too.
You could just you could haveit, all all these different
steps on the outside and thenstill be disconnected from the
very place that God wants tospeak to you.
And you can listen to othersermons and you can well.
You know what that means.
(24:02):
That means they spent time withJesus in his word and God
revealed something to them.
Praise God.
And they shared it with you.
Praise God, it's all part ofthe story.
But don't you want that foryourself?
Don't you want that experiencewhere you go and you spend time
with him and he reveals himselfto you?
And so that shifted for me.
(24:22):
And then I would say, when Iwent out on this journey to do
the podcast over a decade ago,that has completely transformed
my life, because I felt like Iwas accountable to someone else,
you know.
And so and again, I made apromise to myself and to my
listeners that I would be in theword too.
I wouldn't just go on spiritualfumes.
And I've I've done a fewreplays, don't get me wrong but
(24:42):
I mean, I'm not going to go pickup something that I had not
studied myself and talk about it.
I think that's made adifference.
And then another shift even inthe middle of the podcast I just
got exposed to some betterteaching and some deeper
teaching on theology anddoctrine and how to seek out
good sources to deepen my faithin that.
So I think if you listen toepisode one and you kind of go
(25:06):
maybe five years in and thenkeep listening, you will see
kind of a shift in the depth ofmy teaching, because I had a
greater depth in my reading andunderstanding.
So I still want to keep thatwhere it's really accessible.
But I'm hoping to bring some ofthose deeper things to the
table where you can kind of go.
I didn't even think about that.
(25:27):
I had not had good teaching on,for example, the metanarrative
of scripture, the fact that all66 books are woven together to
tell one big story of our Savior.
I think if somebody would havesaid that I would have been like
, I mean, okay, but I got betterteaching on that.
So as I grew as a believer, ithas come out and in the way I
(25:50):
teach and what I share andthings like that.
And then of course, god's justused all of it, all of the
relationships and all of theexperience and the education and
all of that to kind of bring meto this place where I am today.
That's good.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
It's always refreshing to hear stories of
people who didn't take a bigdetour.
I took a big detour for severalyears where I chose not to
follow Christ and before that Ifelt I had a really squeaky
clean testimony.
And a lot of people who havethose feel that maybe their
(26:25):
testimony is not powerful and Ilike to tell them that's not
true, because your testimony isprobably someone else's
testimony as well and they needto hear that they aren't alone,
because Satan's probably goingto make them feel alone so that
they don't share their testimony.
But it's important to hear fromthose who have never strayed
from the faith as well.
(26:45):
It doesn't make them any lessbecause they don't have scars to
talk about.
That should be encouraging tous that it can be done.
There are times in life whereyou can stay strong.
Even when things are thrown atyou, you can still stay strong
in faith and in God and youdon't have to turn away.
And yeah, I think that'samazing that you were able to
(27:07):
hold onto your faith eventhrough the times where you were
confused on what to do or howto do it, and that you're just
deepening your faith every timeyou do an episode of your
podcast, and I can see why, likeyou said, you're always adding
on new bites.
It's a very complex design thatyou have created for your
podcast on how to study the wordand it's awesome.
(27:33):
I really love it and it'sdefinitely helping me and
encouraging me on how to havenew ways of studying the Bible,
because I've been feelingstagnant for a while and needing
a change and I come from alegalistic type of background,
so I don't want to get toolegalistic with anything I do,
(27:54):
but I do love following apattern and it just makes me
feel more at peace.
It's like I wouldn't know how todo it myself and then, if I do
it myself, I feel like, well, Ifeel like somebody else has done
this and I picked it up fromthem somehow.
Like somebody else has donethis and I picked it up from
them somehow.
So it's not really mine and Ijust want to get deeper with God
(28:20):
, like I once did, and enjoyreading my Bible, and I want my
kids to see that it is okay toenjoy reading your Bible.
So I will take what I can getwhere I can get it and as long
as I keep it from becominglegalistic again, that's where I
focus is.
Is this helping or is thismaking me feel that I have to do
it at this specific time, or?
(28:41):
like this and I never want tofeel like that.
And when I do start feelinglike that, I take a pause and
say, okay, if I don't read myBible at this specific time
because I'm busy and I can't doit at this time, that doesn't
mean God's going to be mad at mefor not doing it at nine in the
morning on this specific day,when I have to go rush to go do
(29:03):
something else that's importantat that moment God understands
and I will give him my time.
And sometimes mentally I don'tknow if you're this way, but if
I've got a lot of things on mymind, I don't want to read the
Bible while I got all thosethings on my mind.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I want to get them out of the way.
It doesn't work anyway.
I start thinking about themExactly.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
So I'll get them out of the way first and then I'll
go, because then I feel like Ican actually give God my time
and I will be more focused.
Sometimes I feel guilty doingthat because I'm like no, god
should come first.
But then I remind myself youdid pray this morning.
You put him first.
You're listening to music firstin the morning.
It's not going to be a dealbreaker with God if you wait a
(29:44):
few hours to read your Biblebecause you don't want to read
it distracted.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Well, and I find, like what I introduce on the
podcast is like I'm going tocall it like a scatter pattern.
I mean like there's not, youknow, because there's so many
different ways that you caninteract with God's word.
It's not like a step one, two,three and four, which I'm a fan
of.
those two, don't get me wrong,I'm a big fan of those, and I
think you'll find that, as youlisten, I've got my favorites.
So I do sometimes repeat someof the things that are my
(30:14):
favorites on the regular, but Ialso think you're touching on
something that's so wise Listento the voice.
The more that you're in theword, then you're going to hear
the voice of the father.
You're going to understand whathis voice sounds like.
So listen to the voice that'stalking to you.
The voice of shame is not thevoice of our father.
The voice of shame is from theenemy.
(30:34):
Conviction, however, is from thefather.
So if he says it's been a while, it's been a while and I just
want to be with you and I don'tneed you to, sometimes he'll say
this to me.
I don't need you to make a list, michelle, I just want you to
sit with me, and I'm a consumerof information, and so, for me,
(30:59):
the more the better, right.
So a fulfilling study timewould mean I'm either consuming
a lot of information orproducing a lot of information.
And so the father.
For me, his thing is like slowyour roll.
To me, a thousand years is as aday, and days is a thousand
years.
My time is different than yourtime, so that's what he's just
(31:22):
been telling me.
Another thing, too, is, whenyou get so stuck into a
legalistic like this is the wayI have to do it, or this is the
right way to study my Bible orread my Bible or whatever, then
you miss out on different things, like listening to the Bible is
not a bad idea, and sometimesyou're like, oh, but I'm not,
I'm not able to focus, andthat's probably true too.
Sometimes I just can't listen.
(31:43):
I have to listen to musicinstead of the word or whatever,
but it still counts.
You know, I was talking to afellow podcaster the other day
and he was like yeah, I was in achurch one time where,
basically, they taught thepeople in the church that unless
they had a physical Bible intheir hands, that it didn't
count.
So all these young people withreading their Bibles on their
phone, or maybe people who havea hard time reading, who are
(32:04):
listening, they basically toldthem that that didn't count.
And I was just like no, itcounts.
It counts it's finding waysthat you can connect with the
Lord.
Also, I'm a fan of reading more,because I think we're a
bite-sized culture, but I'm alsoa fan of reading less.
I mean reading less, butrepetitively so that it can sink
(32:28):
in.
And I mean, one of my favoriteepisodes was I did Psalm 23
recently and I can't rememberthe number of the episode, but
more people have commented ortexted or emailed or whatever on
this episode.
It was just really meaningfulto them, I think.
Because it was mostly reallymeaningful to me.
It was just a time where Iwould go on my walks and I would
recite Psalm 23.
(32:48):
It's six verses.
I learned how to internalize itand then I would meditate on it
and process it and talk to theLord about it and it would
change my prayers and all thesedifferent things.
But it was six verses, so itwas just easier to kind of sit
in that place with Him.
And even though I'm a fan ofmore, this was less is more kind
of a moment.
(33:08):
So I agree with you.
I mean some of that is and Ilove that you're finding new
ways whether it's my podcast orother people to go okay, wait, I
just need to mix it up a littlebit.
I need to recognize that Godwants us, he doesn't, and he
wants us to want Him.
There's a time where the word ofGod can become an academic
(33:29):
pursuit.
Well, he doesn't want thateither.
He's a fan of, like you know,us making these wonderful
connections.
I think it thrills him, itdelights him just as much as it
delights us.
But it's not purely an academicpursuit.
It is his revealed word to usso that we can have a right
relationship with him.
And so when we get thatdoctrine right I guess that's
(33:51):
why I wrote my novel A Seat atthe Table is because I wanted to
introduce these ideas of theauthority of scripture, that
God's word is inspired by him,it's inerrant, it's without
error, it is eternal, it issufficient, all these big ideas
that maybe you don't want to gopick up a commentary and read
about.
But maybe if I could show you ina story what those kinds of
things are and how it matters,because if we could say I
(34:14):
believe that God's word is God'sword, I believe that the Bible
is God's word, and you're like,okay, then why don't you read it
or follow it or allow it totransform the way you think?
So then either you don't reallybelieve that it's his word or
you need to let it sink in alittle bit that this is how God
(34:34):
wants to relate to you and he'sprotected it and preserved it
over all this time so that wecould have right relationship
with him.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Sounds like it's a beautiful novel.
I'll have to pick that up, yeahthank you.
I'll have to pick that up.
Yeah, thank you.
Well, michelle, this has beenan amazing conversation and I am
so excited to continuelistening to your podcast and I
will definitely have to get yourbook, because you have such a
powerful love for the word.
(35:04):
I can hear it in every episodethat I've listened to, every
episode that I've listened to,and you've just given so many
different ways to study theBible that there's almost no
excuse for anyone to say I don'tknow how, just listen to one
episode and pick something.
There's so many different waysand we need more people who have
(35:24):
a passion like that to helpothers really study the Word,
not just give it to them, buthelp them become more mature to
where they can do it forthemselves and then they can do
it for their families, theirfriends, new believers.
And yeah, I mean, like you said, you and I are older women now,
so we should be training theyounger women.
(35:45):
What better way than with yourpodcast, with the bites, with
the things that we learn in ourdaily lives, the struggles we go
through, all those things?
So you have touched on somemega awesome ideas, passions,
and I'm pretty sure you're goingto get a lot more subscribers
to your podcast because everyoneloves music and, as a believer,
(36:10):
they're always hungry for more.
How can I learn more about Godand who he is?
How can I go deeper?
So thank you so much for comingon the podcast and sharing your
amazing resources.
Where can they go if they wantmore information from you?
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Well, I really appreciate the invitation.
I'm honored.
I know that you treasure yourlisteners as much as I treasure
mine, and so we want to makesure that we're giving them the
information and the resourcesthat they need.
So what I've done is I've puttogether some free resources for
them.
So if they go tomichellekneesatcom forward slash
, unlock they're going to unlocka couple of bonuses that I've
put together, but on that pagethey're going to unlock a couple
(36:51):
of bonuses that I've puttogether, but on that page I put
links to the podcast, links tothe book and socials, but also
some free resources for them todownload some Bible interaction
tools, download some free video,bible studies and things like
that, both related to thepodcast and the book.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
So it's michellekneesatcom forward slash
unlock Awesome, and we'll makesure we put that in the show
notes.
That way, everyone has thatopportunity.
So thank you again, michelle,for coming on.
I've enjoyed our time together.
Thanks, ana, I've reallyenjoyed getting to know you.
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