When God Becomes the Inner Critic: Healing the Wounds of Faith with Dr. Shadow Mike

Episode Transcript
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Dr. Shadow Mike (00:00):
I remember when my son started, he was like
four.
He was lying about everything.
Like everything he said was nottrue.
He would come home from schooland tell us an elaborate story
about some friend's parents, andthen all to find out like it's
completely made up.
And so we did a littleinvestigating into this and it

(00:21):
was like, oh, kids actually needto develop this skill set of
creating their reality.
If they don't have the space tocreate their reality, they will
just learn to accept thereality that someone hands them.

Goddess Brittney King (00:39):
Welcome to Honest Feedback, the podcast
where deep truth meets boldtransformation.
I'm goddess Brittany King, apleasure priestess and a
transformational retreatfacilitator who helps women
connect to their deepest truths,reclaim their pleasure and
awaken their inner power.

Lisset King (00:57):
And I'm Lissette King an emotional ninja and
transformational coach who helpsleaders release baggage, heal
unresolved trauma and step intotheir most aligned, purposeful
lives.

We've created this podcast for
spirit-led individuals just likeyou, Seekers of truth personal
growth and meaningful connection.

Whether you're navigating life's big questions,
craving more joy andfulfillment, or simply looking
for honest, relatableconversations, you're in the
right place.

Through personal stories, actionable
advice and transformativeinsights.
Our ultimate goal is to empoweryou to create a life that's
overflowing with pleasure,purpose and authenticity.

We know you're capable of incredible things, so
let's make it happen together.
Welcome back to Honest Feedback.
Today we've got a juicyquestion and an incredible,
incredible guest, our friendShadow Mike, and he's just first
of all.
He's one of these real ones.
Like the moment I met him, Iknew that we were meant to do

(01:58):
things together Like just anincredible human.
And this question today isdiving into.
How do we move through somedeep religious trauma or feeling
held back as we try to expandour life?
Do you know anything about that, brooke?

Well, do I know anything about religious
trauma as a PK?
This is known as a pastor's kid.
Yeah, yeah, girl, I've beenexperiencing it and growing
through it.
Funnily enough, a lot of peoplewho happen to see me have some
of that sprinkled in there.
And as someone who deals inspaces of sacred sexuality,

(02:37):
religious trauma is somethingthat definitely pops up often,
and I'm really, really lookingforward to hearing his
perspective about it.
How about?

for you?
Yeah, so you know, I'vedefinitely had my own experience
finding my relationship withGod and through.
It was a very wayward path andI'm excited to dive deep into
that as we discuss the questionShould we give him a call?

Yeah, we'll let Mike introduce himself
.
Shout out Mike, let's give hima call.
Discuss the question.
Should we give him a call?
Yeah, we'll let Mike introducehimself.
Shadow Mike, let's give him acall.
Hi, mike, we are so happy tohave you on the podcast.

Oh, it is honestly an absolute delight.
I just feel really playfulinside and I'm excited to be
here and just hang out withy'all.

Yes, we're so excited to have you.
I mean, we've been tellingeveryone you.
I mean you're our amazingfriend Shadow Mike and like, and
now I find out, you're DrMichael Simmons, Dr Shadow Mike.

Dr Shadow, mike , don't you love it?

when you find out your friends have like
fancy accolades and you're likeyes, yeah, and I feel like that
is happening really frequentlysince moving to Portland.

I'm like, oh, you're a witch, oh God, you're
like.
You heal people's bodies fromhead to toe.
You know, it's like you justnever know what you're going to
run into, you know.

You never know.
Well, in your own words, likeshare.
How are you serving, how areyou helping?

How are you being a light in this world?
Yeah, so I'm a shadow workcoach, and I got into this work
as a former pastor.
Actually, I have always beensomeone who helps people
navigate their spiritual livesright, that was the proclivity
even as a kid, and as I gotolder and realized, oh, there's

(04:25):
a lot of light shining in onedirection within the circles of
Christianity that I was a partof, it left a lot of shadow
right, people walked around withjust dense, dark areas of their
lives that were completelyunexplored, and as I moved
further and further into theprofession of full-time ministry

(04:48):
, it just became clearer andclearer.
People needed a space toactually like turn around and
look at what they couldn't seebecause of how much light they
were focusing in on.
So, or attempting to focus inon, yeah, yeah, so that's what I
do.
I'm a full-time shadow workcoach and I have clients all
over the world, actually fromAustralia, melbourne, australia

(05:10):
to Nebraska.
I mean it's it's actually quiteamazing.
I have a lot of fun talkingwith so many different people.

Oh, that's incredible.
And what?
What makes someone come to ashadow work coach?
If our listeners out there andthey're like I don't know, do I
need a shadow work coach?
Tell us what, what, what lightsyou up about shadow?

Yeah, yeah, what makes you feel like really
icky and yeah, well, I mean yourlisteners are going to be
familiar with, you know the termshadow, even if they don't use
the word, the word, you knowit's metaphor, it's Jung, carl
Jung, psychologist.
Carl Jung would have broughtthis forward, expanded it pretty

(05:56):
dramatically from what Freudhad done, and essentially, it is
the part of us that we hide,repress and deny.
It is the part of us that wehide, repress and deny.
So when people seek me out,it's usually because life has
become unmanageable because ofan area in their life that
they're out of relationship with.

(06:16):
They don't know how to relateto that part of themselves and
it's, you know, destroying theirrelationships, whether that's
work, partners, kids, and thatcould either be because they
don't have access to an emotion.
So many men that I work withcannot access emotion around

(06:37):
sadness, right, they cannot feel, they feel almost detached and
it's wearing down their moreintimate relationship.
I have a number of femaleclients who come to me and
cannot access their anger andtherefore they really have lost
access to their agency and theirpower and their ability to

(06:59):
change their life.
What I love about shadow work isit's not just personal my, my
bachelor's and master's degreeswere both in sociology and
anthropology, so I look at thisidea of shadow as as a
collective issue, right, sothere are common shadow elements
, um, that people in specific uhareas all carry, and so we

(07:23):
don't try to just focus on theone person but say, hey, listen,
this was the atmosphere thatyou were steeped in for decades.
So let's just acknowledge thefact that you might not know any
other woman in your life whohas access to their anger.
So take a deep breath and beokay with that reality for a

(07:46):
moment.
And now we're going to moveforward.
Now we're going to step intowhat does that anger feel like?
Where do you locate it in yourbody?
It's a lot of body work.
People like I don't know how toaccess my body, I don't know
what's going on.
It's like, well, we've got tobuild a relationship with it,
like most things, right.
So, yeah, yeah, I think it's.
It's what would draw someone,uh, to seek out.

(08:10):
This work is typicallyemotional.
It's there's oftentimes theemotional element.
Uh, that's the trailhead intothat denser, darker forest of
shadow yeah, oh, it's so good.

I'm like, where were you on my path 15
years ago?
Well, we all met in dividetiming and, uh, we, just when we
got this question, we knew thatyou were the perfect person to
speak to about this because,coming in hot, talking about
religion and, like you, being a,I'm a I don't know if you know
this, I'm a pastor's kid oh Idid not know that I'm a pk.

Wow, okay, okay .
So you got.
You got that religious drama,you know, at least back in there
yes, I do, yes, I do, and alsomany of my.

It's very funny, I advertise it nowhere.
Like nothing about my pagespeaks about religious drama or
religion really at all, and manyof my clients come to me being
like so I have this thing.
I was in church, Like like, howdid you find me?

I mean, it's so , it's so real, honestly, and I
love, I love you know beinggoddess, brittany King, like how
you've turned that on its headin such a beautiful way.
I mean that's.
I mean I don't know if there isthere.
Is there anyone in our like, atleast in the country I don't

(09:36):
know, like, is it possible tonot carry some kind of traumatic
right, this kind of split thathas come about through religion
or spirituality?
I don't know, I don't know thatI've really met someone who is
that detached from it.
It's so ubiquitous in thecollective, either by either by

(10:04):
something that has actuallyhappened to them or by virtue of
it, them not having access tospirituality because maybe the
generation before themcompletely left spirituality or
religion and then they're likethey don't have any kind of
language or experience to workwith.

Mm-hmm yeah.

Yeah Well , we knew you were the perfect
person, so let us dive in.
Okay, all right, high, honestfeedback.
I grew up in a very religioushousehold and, while I no longer
align with those teachings, Istill find myself in conflict
whenever I pursue a new, moreauthentic version of myself,

(10:44):
whether it's striving forfinancial success, starting my
new career or exploringalternative relationships.
I'm Polly.
I keep hearing the echoes of myupbringing holding me back.

(11:09):
They got the fear of God.

Yeah, I love to maybe approach this from the
developmental psychologyperspective because I think that
there's there's somethingreally problematic about how
relationship with the God image,particularly in Christianity
because that's my background andactually I like to use the

(11:34):
phrase the common Christian mythbecause when you say
Christianity, it's like who areyou talking about?
A million kinds of Christianity.
So the common Christian mythfor me is a way of saying you
know, there are, there arecertain, there are common images
, symbols and beliefs that thatkind of hold people back from

(11:58):
engaging their life and and, andone of those is this idea of
fear.
Right, like fear is both.
Like something that you'resupposed to cast out, because
perfect love casts out fear.
Okay, there's this bible verse.
No one knows where it's at,it's just in their bodies.
Um, and perfect love casts outfear.

(12:19):
But then you're supposed tohave this fear of god.
And if you were to walk up toyour pastor and say, excuse me,
do you have a dictionary thatwould help me to lay out the
different definitions of fearthat you're working with?
You're like they don't havethat.
So people lose access to theirfear, the signal that is

(12:40):
supposed to actually alert youto danger, that needed.
There's some level of likenecessity that's there, and then
, um, uh, then they can'tactually discern or decipher
when they need to use it andwhen they don't need to use it,
when it's over-functioning andwhen it's like, oh, wow, it's
like really under-functioning.

(13:01):
Like you need to be a bit moreaware that there's danger around
here right now Like you need tomake a different decision.
Other times like, no, I'm, I'mjust going to, I'm going to hold
everything back, I'm not goingto engage any of my life because
I'm too afraid to be hurt, tofail.
I mean the existential dread ofa God that you know might be
upset with you or, you know,think you're actually going to

(13:24):
hell or can send you there, butthen also loves you.
Think about that from adevelopmental psychology.
How can you hold a divine, allknowing, all powerful, uh, um
God image that then um issupposed to love you but has,
like, like perfect standards foryou.
Supposed to love you but has,like like perfect standards for

(13:48):
you?
There's even this I rememberwhen my son started like and he
was like four, he was lyingabout everything, Like
everything he said was not true.
He would like he would comehome from school and tell us an
elaborate story about somefriends, parents, and then all
to find out like it's completelymade up.
And so we did a littleinvestigating into this and it

(14:09):
was like, oh, kids actually needto develop this skillset of
creating their reality.
If they don't have the space tocreate their reality, they will
just learn to accept thereality that someone hands them.

(14:32):
So this is like sin number onewhen it comes to like a very
common Christian myth household,which is like you shall not lie
.
I had a client once who saidthat her parents, her parents,
telling her when she's a kidthat they would never lie to her
.
Now that sounds great on onehand, but on another hand it's

(14:52):
like but you mean that there isno space for there to be
differentiation, for therethere's no space for nuance or
creativity between an adult anda child, creativity between an
adult and a child.
And so if a kid is walkingaround feeling like God knows
everything about them right,Because God is all present they
never get to develop the abilityto create their own reality

(15:14):
because they can't experiment.
It's right, they have to beperfect.
God knows the thoughts of yourheart and you never develop the
ability to think outside of thatconstruct in that box.
So, thinking of this, you know,for for your listener who's
asking this question, a hugepart of the work that I would

(15:38):
invite them into would be aroundexploring their image of God,
would be around exploring theirimage of God.
There's a lot of areas we couldgo with that, but, like when
you feel this kind of resistancethat he's like, okay, I'm not
really involved in that anymore,yeah, like you're not in church
, but the church is very muchstill in you and we might need

(16:01):
to pull out some of thoseauthoritative voices that are in
a place where you actually needto take some authority and some
ownership of your own life.
So I mean, that's a long way toanswer that beginning of that
question, but that's a big placeto start because if you can
only go as far as your image ofthe divine has a lot of very

(16:27):
specific thoughts about how you,you know, live every moment of
your day mike, I am shooketh Iam shooketh.

You just explained her entire reality.

Yeah, I was just like wow, wow, that.
What really just keepsexploding in my head and in my
heart was the.
This is a developmental stagewhere kids are actually learning
how to create their own reality.
And what our listener is sayingis saying every time I'm trying
to create my reality, I'm infear.

(17:00):
And because, if you're nothaving that space to imagine, to
create, to decide, and it'slike, oh, everything's been
decided for me, like I'm justlike, wow, fucking like, what a
vice grip, what a vice grip toone's soul and to being, and so
it's like it's absolutelyunderstandable, paula.

(17:21):
Like that you are in this placeand feeling stuck, and feeling
like I'm fearful of God, andeven just that image of like if
God's all knowing but alsoholding this thing of like this
is what it means to be perfect,like it's just well, how do I
measure up?
How do I?
How do I?
How do I do anything?

Yeah, you know this is an original thought I'm
having right now, but the in theProtestant version of the
common Christian myth you havetwo, essentially two camps.
You've got the camp thatbelieves that God has kind of
decided everything, like yousaid, and there's really not

(17:58):
much we can do about it.
It's predestined, that's theword that's often used.
And then there's another sideof the camp that believes that
we have free will, right, thatGod created everything and
didn't just kind of go onvacation but in some ways just
kind of is letting us decidewhat we end up doing.
It's all centered around wherewe end up in eternity, right.

(18:18):
So God has either predestinedsome to go to hell and some to
go to heaven.
And then this other side saysyou know, god has actually given
everyone free will, but a lotof people will choose to go to
hell in the end.
And I was thinking about howlike this is, how problematic
this is like from an attachmenttheory perspective, right.
So over here you have this ideathat God has kind of

(18:39):
predestined everything.
You don't really have a lot ofownership, you don't have a lot
of agency and in some ways likeyou're controlled, so it can
develop this attachment style,not just like people, but just
to yourself, to life, like toeverything that feels almost

(19:00):
smothered by control, which, inattachment language, would often
result in kind of this eitherdisorganized or an avoidant
attachment style.
And then over here, this ideathat you have free will and you
can choose every, you know the,every single choice is a moment

(19:21):
is a choice.
Well, that would develop thissense of like.
Well, like, where is God inthat?
Like what?
What control does the divinehave over my life, if I can
choose all of this?
And that could very easily turninto an anxious style of
attachment where you don't knowif parent, mom, dad, you know

(19:41):
divine parent is present, likeyou're looking for signs of
connection but you can't quitetrack it, because with the free
will idea it's like how can youknow?
Right, the devil disguiseshimself as an angel of light,
but guess what God does too?
And then sometimes the devillooks like a someone with a
pitchfork and like horns ontheir head, and guess what?

(20:03):
Well, sometimes God looks likethat too.
So you just, you just don'tknow.
You don't know what, what.
So people oftentimes, like,quite literally, will spend
decades stuck because everydecision almost feels life or
death in like the eternal sense.
They wouldn't say thatconsciously, but, as we all know

(20:25):
, it's actually all about whatthe unconscious truly believes,
and that's what's guiding orkeeping them from taking that
step towards the life theyreally want.

I know Well, I'm feeling like.
So your first question isasking them to explore what they
think about God, or theirconcept of the image of God.
How did you phrase it?

Yeah, Well, it's maybe the image, the image
of God.
Now, this wouldn't be where Iwould start with most people,
but if this was like the urgentquestion, right, we might start
there and we'd work in somestuff around parents as well.
Like you know, it's so oftenright, Like it's kind of almost
shot for shot, right, your imageof God is I like to call God

(21:15):
your second God image, and thenyour parents are your first God
image, and so the second Godimage is created in the image of
the first God image.
And so what is you know, whatwas your relationship like?
You know, what did youexperience?
And it's like it was almosthidden in plain sight.
For so many of them it's like,oh yeah, my dad was exactly like
how I think about God.

I'm having that in real time, yeah,
yeah.

Yeah, well, and and this is, it's really hard
to untangle that because peoplefeel it feels transgressive to
even ask this kind of question.
It's like, no, well, God isjust how God is.
It's like, no, no, he isn't.
No, she isn't every way.
It's like any way that you'veever thought about the divine
has been through an image youcan't think about God without
thinking about an image and like, look at the Bible.

(22:10):
It's like, well, that's not abiblical image of God.
Well, god is imaged as a lion,as a lamb, as a horse, as a I
mean as a burning bush.
As a burning bush, I mean as amountain, as a wind, yeah, like
there are countless images ofGod and that wasn't problematic

(22:33):
for ancient people.
It's problematic for an overlyscientific structure, like we
can't go beyond the data kind ofmind.
It's problematic to do that.
But ultimately, a huge part ofthe work here for someone who is
rooted and really connected tothat, you know, a system of

(22:55):
belief is that we have to dosome work on their image of God.
And so it is about, like, notjust from a cognitive or
rational like, what's a betterimage?
You know, like, oh, like a deer, that's sweet.
Well, you, actually that mightnot be helpful, but then we
actually enter into the mysticaland the magical and we start to

(23:16):
like I asked them you know, howdid you experience God showing
up since we last met?
And it is beautiful to see howpeople will.
I had a client recently that itwas well, I don't want to share
, I don't want to share a story,but yeah, just like

(23:37):
experiencing these animals,right, coming out of nowhere,
literally, just like thatsurprised me.
And if there is a charge, ifthere's an energetic charge with
that encounter, get curiousabout it because there might be
something there for you.

Yeah, oh God, it's still exploding in my head.
What I hear is that dichotomyof you, it's you and it's God.
And if God has all the rightanswers and the moment you do
something that is against whatGod taught you, then you're in

(24:14):
the wrong.
And so here's this person doingeverything that they were
taught not to.
And how do they not internalizethat wrongness?

Yeah, it's Connie Zweig, who's a retired
Jungian analyst but writes someincredible books around shadow
work and spirituality, and shecalls this the ultimate double
bind.
She talks about how, when itcomes to trying to do things
right for your God image,there's no feedback.

(24:49):
Your God image there's nofeedback.
There's a broken feedback loop.
So you do all the right thingsbut then, like you get in a
wreck.
Oh well, they're like.
It's at least not a positivesign.
So maybe it's like oh, like,what did I miss?
Is there something I need to bedoing more?
Like it just keep, this keepshappening.
So I keep trying more and moreto be perfect and to purge

(25:12):
myself of anything that is notquote, unquote.
Good, but you never get thelike you, except for, sometimes,
intermittent reinforcement.
This is a term in psychologyaround emotionally unavailable
partners, right, if you look upintermittent reinforcement, it's
like this is actually howsomeone who's emotionally
unavailable will keep youhanging on, and so many people,

(25:37):
so many people have a God imagethat is emotionally unavailable.
So every now and then I know,like every now and then they'll
get us, they'll get somethingyou know they'll just get,
they'll get love bombed and um,it keeps them going.
It's like I'm I am now, like Iknow I'm on the right path, you

(26:00):
know, they'll just be so sure.
And it's like, yeah, you are,but like this is this, doesn't?
This isn't part of it, likethis is an internalized thing at
this point that you're you'recontinuing to cultivate that
same image of God.
That is one of like, yeah, youknow, every seven times you pull

(26:22):
the slot machine, or maybeevery seven to 15 times you pull
the slot machine, you getsomething, but guess what?
You're wasting your life.
You're spending your life atthe slot machine rather than
living waiting for that kind ofdivine assurance and that divine
download to set you free again.
It's such a heartbreaking wayto live when I think about it.

(26:43):
Like so many people, that's howthey've lived their lives.

Gosh, yeah, I'm like.
It's just like like oh well, Iguess I, if you guys are game, I
kind of want to open the space,like do it would you guys be
open to sharing personal storiesabout your own looking at what
your god image was and how thatwas for you?
Like opening the shadow ofbehind the light?

yeah let's start.

I'm all, I'm all game we'll start with
lisette and then go to mikeabsolutely so.

I have a really interesting story.
It was funny because you'relike, well, some people don't
have religious, everyone hasreligious trauma, and I used to
think I didn't because and I dowell there's.
There's a really interestingstory.
My family grew up Catholic.
We're South American, colombian, and in the late 70s my mom

(27:36):
went Jehovah's Witness.
Long story short, they had herselling some encyclopedias and
then one day they wanted her to.
The encyclopedias were a sin,so then they had to burn the
encyclopedias and then my dadwas like that's it, we're done,
and so she got out of the churchand then I was born and
essentially no religion at allshoved down my throat, like not

(27:59):
once.
I didn't go to church oranything, and what was amazing
about it was I grew up kind ofgodless in a way, and I found my
own way back to a spiritualcenter when I started to do my
healing work.
I had a near-death experienceand everything, and I started to
find my relationship with God,the grand organized design.

(28:20):
I see it as the cosmic soup weswim in and I fell in love with
God as a concept, and I justfeel this like all loving
presence that's been there, thepresence that is never an
absence and I have thisbeautiful relationship with it.
And my mother I was visitingwith her and one of the things
she said, she goes.
It's amazing.
You're the only one I didn'tpush God down their throat and

(28:43):
you're the only one who stillhas a relationship with God and
it was so beautiful to hear hersay that and to acknowledge me
in that way.
But, yeah, same same, it was a,an absentee parent that I was
looking for.

Yeah, I love, yes, it, it really I like would
you say I'm just curious for myown kind of data polling here.
Like would you say yoursiblings, like there was, like
it was really.
It's been really difficult.
Still is very difficult to evengo around the topic.

Yeah, you know, everyone has their own
relationship with it.
You know, I know there's likesome were baptized, some got
baptized to get married in thechurch, but not necessarily.
My brother went to Catholicschool and he had his own weird
stuff on that, you know, and Iwould say probably my oldest

(29:40):
brother still goes to church,but no one talks about God, if
you know what I'm saying.
You know, so they all havetheir own very private
relationship with it.
I remember the time when my, mysister was so mad because she
didn't get to have christmasgrowing up and her birthday is
on christmas.
And one day she was just likefuck this, I'm having christmas.

(30:02):
And she, like christmasexploded in the house.
It was like christmas lightsand all these things.
And from that moment forward itwas like christmas became a
thing in my house, but I wasn't.
It wasn't until I was like 12.
And it was Santa and lights.
You know it was Santa'sbirthday.
It wasn't about Jesus, yeah.

Also, interestingly, your name.
Can you tell everybody yourname?
Yeah?

So I discovered later in my life, as I'm like
looking up, you know names andwhat they mean.
My name has a hebrew origin andit stands for god's promise and
I'm like.
Well, how about that?

yeah, oh yeah, the, the.
What is it?
The grand organized design.

Yeah.

Yeah, and the promise of that.
I mean that's beautiful, sobeautiful.

Yeah, so that's my story.
Yeah, thanks for listening.
Yeah.

Mike how was your first experience
looking at the shadow.

It was probably when I was pastoring and I was
simultaneously working at achurch that was all about
bringing people in and likereally kind of front door
oriented, like we want to getpeople in, but once you're in
it's like we just want we aregoing to get.
You know, we're going to buildmore numbers, more people.
At the same time I was workingfor an organization that was

(31:27):
doing a lot of shadow work stuffand like initiation retreat
work.
It was also Christian or Iwould say like kind of the
Christ oriented element there,but it was so different, right
Cause you could swear and youcould like step into like the
deep, dark, icky stuff in yourlife.

(31:47):
And I would like see people inmy church who had been in church
for decades.
They go on one initiationretreat and their life has
changed.
And I saw this time and timeagain and to the point where as
a pastor I was an associatepastor I got to the point where

(32:08):
I didn't.
I would stand up to preach on aSunday morning and I would look
out and see no one I knew.
That was the last Sunday Ipreached and I saw no one I knew
, because everyone that Iinvited on these retreats could
no longer be in that space.
It was uninhabitable to theirlife, a life that was evolving,
and they couldn't stay in thissmall boxed in container anymore

(32:30):
.
But, like, I think there wasmany, I think, for me.
You know, I was the kid in highschool that got up at 5am to
pray, to read my Bible.
I had a Bible that was.
Everything was underlined andhighlighted.
I was the president of FCA, Ihad started a Bible study that

(32:52):
met three times a week at mypublic high school and I had a,
I had, a very clear like trackrecord of how many people I had
led to the Lord.
I mean, I was, I was this kidand, um, I had dedicated my life
to this, far before I ever wentto seminary.
Um, years and years of this, Iknew the Bible like I talked in

(33:13):
the Bible, it was a part of meand so in some ways, to be
honest with you, it is almost asthough, like, I had this span
of time where I went to seminaryand it became clear that I had
to become a professionalChristian if I wanted to really
do this, and then to the time Ileft, it was probably maybe

(33:36):
eight years of time.
That never felt right.
It never really aligned,because what I actually
experienced here even though itwas young and undeveloped and
really, you know, kind ofregressive Now it would be then
it was helping me form an ego.
It helped me form like a senseof identity in high school and
in college.
And then what I think about Godnow that you know it's much

(33:59):
more expansive, the, the fallingaway from that God image, kind
of felt like, yeah, that makesmore sense now I don't.
I felt like I was in a bit of adream state, um, living out
this professional thing.
That was never mine.
But I'll just add this part thatmy God image, probably until

(34:25):
about three years ago, fouryears ago, still had a massive
problem with sexuality andtherefore I had a massive
problem with sexuality.
So the uncovering of that itwas only by virtue of moving
towards my sexuality and thenlooking up and realizing okay,

(34:47):
I'm still here, god isn't angryat me.
Oh, life's getting better.
Interesting that unfolding isit's even where I'm at Like.
Am I okay?
Can I continue to breathe whenI'm sexually engaged Like?
Or am I bracing that fearresponse of something is not
safe here.

(35:07):
That's a huge part of this forme and the God image that I grew
up with was highly anti-sex.
You know ironically, but yeah.

Gosh, it's just so, oh, it's so
interesting, it's juicy.
Like, oh, I'm so thank you,listener, for writing this, just
for us to be having thisconversation, cause it's just
bringing up so many colors andso many images, and like, wow,
I'm just like three Biblestudies a week in high school,
like I mean, like, like you knowwhat I mean, and just the parts

(35:40):
that don't feel right versusthe parts that do, and I feel
like that really ties into mystory about.
You know, I grew up I'm apastor's kid, so my, my dad was
a minister and we were Christianand he started preaching out of
Baptist church, so then webecame Baptist.

So so it was like what else things?

like I don't, I don't know, but like
then we were.
So that's what we were and Ihad these experiences as a kid
that just felt very differentthan how I hear a lot of other
people talk about growing up ina Christian religion.
Like my dad's spiritual father,like the man who he was close
to, who was like a higher pastorthan him, who, like this, was a

(36:25):
gay man and he had a farm withchickens and we would hang out
at his house and it was uncle.
I won't say his hang out at hishouse and it was uncle.
I won't say his name, but hisuncle.
But I was just like.
But I was like I was never told.
Like being gay was wrong.
Like my parents drank onoccasion my mom loved a
margarita, like they drink, andlike we would go on family
vacations to Las Vegas, you know.

(36:45):
So it's like.
It's just there was a lot ofthings going on and I just there
was a lot of things going onand I just remember there was
like also, my dad's energy wasvery domineering, very like this
is right, this is wrong.
I remember one time we got upto go to the bathroom during
church and he ended up beatingus after cause he was like this
is wrong and like you weredisrespectful to God and all

(37:06):
these different things.
And it came out veryexplosively one Sunday morning
that when he didn't show up forchurch and his best friend pinch
hit preach for him, it came outthat he had two families and
had two churches and he was athis other church in a different
state.
And I just remember like as achild, like I still can kind of

(37:28):
like drop into it because it wasso confusing for me, because I
remember first we all thought hewas like missing or gone or
hurt or something like that, solike people were asking me for
information and like I don'tknow if I had ADD or whatever
OCD, but I just knew his licenseplate because I was a kid who
knew a lot of license plates, solike license plate.
And I remember other adultslike kind of asking me for

(37:51):
information.
But I was like am I allowed tosay this?
But am I not allowed to saythis?
And it all was very upsetting.
And then we were shunned fromthe church and it was like hey,
you and your family are notallowed to be here.
And I just remember feelingreally hurt.
I felt abandoned by God and Ialso felt like really fucking
confused, cause I was like we'vebeen here every Sunday talking

(38:13):
about friendship and fellowshipand all these other things from
the Bible, and like someone madea mistake or whatever, but like
now, people who I've thoughtwere my family don't talk to me.
And so it was just like this.
And I remember I was like okay,I think I'm done with God, like
and and and what you said aboutlike having the God, imaging
your father.

(38:33):
I was like the more Iunderstood more colors of my
father, the less I wanted tohave to do with God, cause I was
like this my experience of Godis vengeful, abusive,
emotionally manipulative.
There's not enough praise thatyou can give, but the that, like
, the like, like, and it was allthese really insidious things.
And I just remember I was likeI'm done with God.

(38:56):
And it wasn't until my own likehealing and spiritual awakenings
that I started to come back andI felt very resistant to the
church in all forms, but Istarted to discover God in
nature and in trees and in yogaand in being with my body and in
dancing and all these thingslike that.
And I mean what felt mostresonant to me was claiming I'm

(39:16):
a witch and I was just like thisis my relationship with spirit
and it's been my own evolutionto even use the word God,
because I was just like, oh, Idon't want to be judged.
Everyone has these differentimages.
It's you know, know, I'm notliberal enough if I'm talking
about god, like like all these,like you know, the stories, the
stories, the stories, thestories, um around it, and it's

(39:38):
been like for me just like anever evolving evolution.
But to like look at the shadow,I was just like very much like
nope, if god is this experienceat this church deuces, like Like
I'm done.

I just want to say, like y'all, I haven't, I
haven't told you this, buty'all's usage of God actually
has been kind of this like finalstage of healing in that area
for me, because I hadn't reallyused it in a long time, for the
same reasons that you justmentioned.
Right, because it comes with alot of assumptions if you use it

(40:14):
in certain contexts.
Right, because, like, I can usethat with you all, because when
I say it you know that I'm nottalking about some sort of
really tightly wound structure.
But for a lot of people, right,that that word is highly
triggering and it's related toyou know what we could call a

(40:34):
God complex.
Not like I'm so big and I'mlike God that's how it's often
used but this complex of, likeassociated beliefs and ideas,
experiences and traumas thatreally just kind of wait in the
unconscious.
And as soon as somethingrelated to that complex hits,
that's what we mean when we sayit's triggered.

(40:55):
And from a Jungian perspective,when a complex is triggered, the
whole thing, that whole complexcomes forward and Jung would
say it takes over the consciouspersonality.
It's like this is the onlything that exists.
And now that complex is drivingyour life and and and and
essentially keeping you in thisalmost like zombie, like state

(41:18):
moving through life.
It can at least where you'relike, yeah, you're alive, you
look alive to everyone, butyou're, there is something
that's inhabited a very onedimensional part of you, that
kind of split off and now hascome back in as taking the
steering wheel.
It's such a it can be such adestructive complex when there
isn't a way forward.
And I'll say a lot of timeswhat people will do to find a

(41:40):
way forward is they will cut offthe archetypal energy or
they'll attempt to and, likewhat you're saying, like I don't
want anything to do with God.
People will say, oh, I'm anatheist now, and when someone
says that they're an atheist,I'm like, yes, this is great,
I'm really.
This is a good spot.
This is such a good spot to bein because if you want to

(42:03):
cultivate an image of God thatis authentic and native to your
soul, then you're going to haveto go through a time of
separation from the old image.
I mean, this is initiation 101.
If you want to step into thetransformational space, you have

(42:24):
to separate from the old space,and that is often a painful
experience.
It's often a it's a death.
It's a death experience and forsomeone who has been entirely
controlled, entirely manipulatedand had no agency in their life
because of their God image,separation from that oftentimes

(42:45):
looks like them taking completecontrol of their image of God,
which is that it is non-existent.
So if anyone's listening tothis and either been in that
state, knows someone in thatstate or wants to even pull into
that label, move go to wherethe energy is, because it likely

(43:06):
has a gift for you.
If you feel like you need toseparate from all that stuff in
order to really start to buildsomething new.

Yeah yeah , this is such a powerful
conversation.
So, for our listener, who isstruggling with feeling like
they can't take steps forward,they're in the space of fear If
you and I know this is such alike, this is deep work.
Fear, if you and I know this issuch a like.
This is deep work.
This is nuanced work, this ispersonal work.

(43:34):
And is there something that youwould offer them as a place to
start to like, start to askthemselves certain questions?
Is there a meditation, apractice?
You know, I know, we are, allof us work in the space of
transformation and not in thespace of like.
Here's a quick fix you justtake a pill and it's gone.
And if there's anything that wecan offer to this person like,
what would you share?

Yeah, it's a really powerful question and it
is.
It is so complex, you know,when there's a, when there's
some kind of, when there's somekind of complex or massive

(44:17):
amounts of stuck energy aroundthis idea of God, it's almost.
It's like it's nearlysuffocating.
I just want to even like,acknowledge that like it's
suffocating because where canyou?
go.
You know it feels like if Ireach out for support.
You know it feels like if Ireach out for support, uh, all
the people that I'm supposed toreach out to would just tell me
the thing that I've always known.
But I feel like I can't gothere anymore, um, but like I

(44:41):
feel wrong, or even like there'ssomething like not good about
going to someone, someone who'soutside of that tradition, and I
think it really requires itrequires reaching out for
support.
Honestly, like I don't.
When someone's stuck in thatplace, I don't think that
there's a practice they can do,because, essentially, spiritual

(45:04):
practices have a relativecompulsion to the overwhelming
anxiety that they experiencearound their spiritual lives,
which is their whole life, right, and and so I remember going
through it during seminary, Iwent through the darkest night

(45:26):
of my soul and it was this.
You know, to go back to yourquestion, that was probably
where I confronted my God imageactually, I'd forgotten about it
because it was so big, but itwas like I believed that God had
a very specific plan for mylife and I didn't know what it
was first of all, but then Ialso wanted to marry my, my, my

(45:50):
ex partner, and, uh, and it feltlike I was, you know, I was
going to do the wrong thingregardless.
And, um, I had to get to apoint where I essentially said I
can't trust what's happening onthe inside of me anymore.
Like I actually have tosurround myself with people who

(46:10):
will tell me the truth, liketell me, tell me, goodness.
Like the truth is a complicatedword for Christianity, but like
the that will tell me that I'mokay, that will, that will be
there, like that that will askme questions, or just let me sit
with them.
That's why I won't be alone, orjust let me sit with them, so I

(46:33):
won't be alone.
I think that that's a huge partof this is reaching out for
support and getting honest withthe messages, the stories, the
ruminations, the intrusivethoughts.
There's a word OCD is kind oflike an overused diagnosis, kind
of like narcissism, right, andOCD there's not.
There are different kinds ofOCD, but really it's just OCD.

(46:55):
And then that OCD tends tofocus on whatever you value the
most.
So if you really really valuerelationships guess what?
There's our OCD relationshipOCD If you really really really
value your spiritual life andyou want to follow God.
That OCD If you really reallyreally value your spiritual life
and you want to follow God,that OCD will attach and it's
called a religious scrupulosityOCD.

(47:16):
So you almost get to this pointwhere you feel like you have to
be perfect, you have to doeverything right and in that
state you almost can't trustwhat you're feeling.
So, moving towards community,moving towards people who know
the inner workings of what'shappening and can guide you, I
think it's.

(47:37):
I think that's honestly likethe only thing I've seen work.
I don't think I've ever knownanyone who's like, yeah, okay,
okay, I had a lot of anxietythat I was going to hell and
then I think I'm good now.

I meditated once and now we're good.
Yeah, I would love to speak tothe poly piece.
You know, the moving towardopen relationships like there.
That's such an important spaceto find community.
Yeah, more than anything,because when you're doing poly,

(48:17):
you're already doing somethingthat's so fringe.
And if you go to a prettystandard or stereotypical,
therapist or religion oranything, they're just they're
going to tell you that yourproblem is being poly, you know,
or being in a non monogamous.
They're like, well, that's yourproblem.
If you weren't in that, if youweren't doing that thing that
wasn't standard, you wouldn'thave problems.

(48:37):
That's just says the 60% ofpeople that are divorced, you
know.
So my invitation there is, youknow, just seek out community.
I know I've created a spacehere in Portland where people
can come get some support beingpoly and navigating that space.
But that's one of thefoundations is, you can't seek

(48:58):
help where people aren't doingthe thing you want you want to
move toward.
And so there there comes thispoint where you have to lean
into the self-acceptance of whoyou are, because the more I've
healed, the more I've come toterms with my homosexuality.
The more I've healed, the moreI've come to terms with being

(49:21):
like oh yeah, polyamory is justlike.

That's how my heart works, you know, and if
anyone, if anyone's poly, it'sgod loving everybody, everybody
yeah, he's a whole yeah, I Imean I love that you brought
that forward, because that'sliterally like that is like the
thing that's hidden in plainsight.
I mean, like the, the, thething furthest from the common

(49:45):
Christian myth image of God ismonogamy, like like you're
talking about a God wholiterally is in relationship
with billions of people and andyou know a lot of like how
people just commonly think aboutGod as this kind of solitary
man, uh, with a son, and thenlike a spirit that seems to kind

(50:08):
of float around somewhere.
But like, if we want to getlike really clear about like the
theological framework in likewhat is dogmatic?
Um, it's the doc.
It's, well, it's the doctrineof the trinity and that, in and
of itself.
I have, as you all know, aversion of it right back here
that you have in your house and,um, it is three people sitting

(50:30):
at a table and this it's an.
You know the, the, the icon ofthe trinity is rube loves
trinity.
There's a, uh, russian, uh,iconographer who created this
image and the original it hasthe three God persons around a
table, and then the originalicon actually had a mirror in

(50:52):
the table at the front, and so aviewer of the icon would
approach the table and when theygot close to it, it was big.
It wasn't tiny, it was big.
And when they got to it theycould see their reflection at
the table and the invitationhere is that there's room for
you at the table Right.

(51:12):
And so, like, even in my polyjourney, it was like the idea of
kitchen table polyamory, like Ihad a God image for that.
You know what I mean.
Like that felt actually moretrue to love and to wholeness
than like this idea that therewas some kind of rigid, perfect

(51:34):
way that we had to do things.
That was like wouldn't havebeen loving in my situation, it
would have been verytraumatizing for everyone and
and, like this, felt like yeah,okay, my God image is evolving.
That's a huge piece of this too.
Like the image of God has tocontinue to evolve.
If it stays stagnant, it'sbasically like keeping the light

(52:00):
shining in one area and whenyou do that, the opposite tends
to start to get pretty moldy,you know, and it doesn't get the
same, the same nourishment thatwhat is illuminated does.
And so, by virtue of this ideaof wholeness and moving towards
integration, our God image hasto shift so that our shadow can

(52:23):
be seen If it stays in this onespot, we essentially will
develop a very rigid, unlivedlife, the shadow, and then that
will kind of end up, as we know,directing and guiding our lives
from the unconscious.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, I feel like
my experience in organizedreligion was the seeing that or
feeling that or experiencingthat from those who are
practicing a really stiffpracticing a really stiff thing

(53:06):
and a really big shadow, reallybig, and a beach ball experience
.

The closer you are to the light, the bigger the cat
, the shadow you cast that'sexactly it yeah yeah, this is.

I mean, this has just been gosh such a
beautiful conversation yeah,mike.

If someone wanted to work with you, reach out to
you, how would they find you?

Yeah, you can just go to shadowmikecom and on
there you'll see that it goesstraight to my homepage where
you can book a discovery call.
So I do a free 30-minutediscovery call and one of the
unique things I bring when itcomes to this kind of work is I
have clients that I meet withlike over the long haul, right,

(53:47):
long tail.
We do work over the course oftime, but I like to create what
I call journeys, shadow workjourneys, and those shadow work
journeys are, you know, eitherin three, six or eight session
journeys, and it depends on whatsomebody is like senses that

(54:07):
they're needing to do, and themore you know, the more is you
know into this like deep, deep,deep area of their life that
they didn't know was there, orthey're just kind of dipping

(54:28):
their toe into this or like, ohmy God, I need to do this.
I didn't realize this was forme.
Whatever the stage of life, likeif you feel like life has
brought you to some kind ofthreshold that you're trying to
negotiate like should I stay,should I go, should I walk
through this or should I justlike put blinders on and pretend
like nothing happened?
Like if you find yourself inthat kind of wrestling.

(54:49):
You're likely at an initiatorythreshold.
I love helping guide peoplethrough that and into whatever
is next.
I love helping guide peoplethrough that and into whatever
is next.
So that would be like if youwant to work with me, let's do a
shadow work journey six toeight sessions and then we can
renegotiate.
At the end we're like, okay, Ithink we need to do some more.

(55:11):
It'll be kind of acollaborative process there, but
schedule a free discovery calland let's talk and just feel the
energy and if it's there, yeah,yeah.

You've just been such a joy and light in our life
, like seriously.
We met at a networking eventand it's just been game on, it's
been spectacular.
We've been sharing each other'smagic.
It's, it's wonderful, thank youfor being in our life.

Y'all like seriously your work, your life,
just your.
I call your house.
It's a womb, you know, and ithas transformed me every time I
have come your direction andhere shameless free plug.
But if anyone is interested ingoing to the Huna workshop,

(55:59):
coming up, please do that,because it it is.
It is the best value that youcan find.
It changed my life and hasbrought me into my next season
almost with like a sense ofwholeness.

I did not think was possible Love y'all so much.
And that was our word from oursponsor.

I'm your sponsor today.

Thank you so much.
Appreciate that.
Thank you.

Love you, mike.
Wow, mike brought it today.
I mean that conversation.
I did not know where it wasgoing to go.
Also, love that we found outhow gifted our friend was.
As far as like, I don't, I wantto call them adornments.
What do you call it, accolades?

Accolades, yeah, we did not know it was Dr Shadow
Mike.
Did not know it's Dr ShadowMike Until today.
With Dr Shadow Mike, with DrShadow Mike.

What has been your big takeaway from that
conversation?

What was something that just like hit or popped or
the developmental stage you know, talking about how your first
image of God, like how it movesthrough your life, that was so
profound for me to just discoverI'm like, well, I didn't think
I had trauma, it's just capitalT, middle case, lowercase, all

(57:21):
the things it's still there andhow collective we hold it.
Yeah, I mean.

I thought it was beautiful hearing us all
our first like turn to look atGod experiences.
But the thing that spoke to methe most as a child who formerly
used to lie a lot the thingabout the developmental, about
the lying I was just like theunderstanding of that is staged
to form your own reality.

(57:48):
And when that is stifled I wasjust like I mean TikTok, you can
see me coming about control andfear and powerlessness and all
these other different things.
But I was just like wow, thatability to create your own
reality.
And this is where the callerwas finding challenge.
And so just having thatawareness for oneself of like,

(58:11):
oh okay, maybe I'm not broken,maybe there's nothing wrong with
me, maybe it's.
This was part of myconditioning and now that I have
awareness about it, now I cantake action to make different
choices in my life.

Oh man, mike is just a wizard.
Call him get your shadow workdone he.
It will have passed by the timethis started.
He's having a two week thingand it's just like yes, mike,
we'll be there, we're going to,we'll be at the next one, you,
we will keep you posted on those.

Goddess Brittney Kin (58:45):
Absolutely , absolutely.
So check out his links below.
Reach out to him, and you heardabout his experience at Huna.
He actually has a verybeautiful long form testimonial
um that you can check out onLissette's page.
But if you are interested incoming to HUNA, now is the time.
It is a great time.

Yeah, we'll be having our HUNA June 21st and
22nd and, like you said, this isthe value we provide at HUNA
the amount of release work thatyou'll get to do digging into
anger, sadness, fear, guilt andshame and letting it go and
releasing a major limitingbelief and then the initiation
that you get to experience there.

(59:25):
Talk about an initiation.
Oh yeah, yeah, you are going tobe invited into the next level
of your life.

So the link is below for that as well,
and if you have a question, ifsomething's been on your heart,
on your mind or you just want toshare with us.
This is what I got from thatepisode.
We love those kinds of texts,we love those kinds of messages.
Give us a call at 971-895-4111.
We love to hear from you.

And until we meet again, be honest with each other
.
Bye.

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When God Becomes the Inner Critic: Healing the Wounds of Faith with Dr. Shadow Mike

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