February 24, 2025 • 42 mins
Elle sits down to talk with artist Ryan Barnes, whom she knows from the Spoonie Studio virtual gatherings. They dig into Ryan’s art practice, and he shares the ongoing development of the "void" series, which explores themes of disconnection and change. Ryan also talks about balancing his art with his role as a parent and student, and the impact of his service dog, BlackBerry, on his work.
Links to connect with Ryan, and all other resource links, are in the full show notes at hoorfpodcast.com
Subscribe to Hoorf! Radical Care in a Late Capitalist Heckscape wherever you listen to your favorite podcast:
Join the Blessed Herd of Saint Winkus: Sign up for our newsletter, get Hoorf! episodes delivered directly to your inbox. What's more, you get invitations to our monthly Coffee and Biscuits Chat, where you get to hang out with Ricki and Elle, talk about the show, and connect on the topics that mean the most to you.
Become a Patron:
https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hoorfpodcast/membership
Connect with Elle Billing:
- Website: www.hoorfpodcast.com / www.elleandwink.com
- Instagram: instagram.com/hoorfpodcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elle Billing (00:00):
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:03):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf, radical care in the latecapitalist heckscape.
(01:01):
My guest for this episode isRyan Barnes. Ryan Barnes is a
visual artist from Washingtonstate who works primarily in
digital mediums, paint, penciland charcoal. A lot of his
inspiration comes from stories,comics and manga, animation,
anime and the pop art movement,as well as the world around him.
Ryan is one of the members ofspoonie studio, which I talked
(01:22):
about on the previous episode ofHoorf, and I am excited to have
him on the podcast today. HiRyan. Welcome to Hoorf.
Ryan Barnes (01:31):
Hi, thanks for having me here.
Elle Billing (01:34):
Yeah, thanks for being here. I'm excited to,
well, I'm gonna say I'm excitedto talk to you. I talk to you
every week, but I'm excited totalk to you on the record
Ryan Barnes (01:42):
even earlier today.
You talked to me.
Elle Billing (01:44):
I did. We talked earlier today. We're recording
this on a Friday. We had spooniestudio this morning. You're one
of the spoonies, so yeah, andyou're, you come every Friday,
so we, we talk a lot, and I'vehad a chance to watch you work
on some of your projects. It'sbeen fun. Yeah?
Ryan Barnes (02:01):
Thank you. Yeah. I try to go every day, or not
every day, but every week.
Elle Billing (02:03):
Yeah, it's been nice to get to know you. I
didn't even ask, what were youworking on today? When we were
in the studio,
Ryan Barnes (02:14):
I was, I was working on the second part of
the koi fish painting that I'vebeen doing
Elle Billing (02:21):
the digital one, or are you making an actual
paint one now?
Ryan Barnes (02:25):
No, it's an actual paint one. Part One and Part Two
are both actual paint. But I'vebeen following the instructions
and the tutorial from ArtAcademy Lessons for Everyone,
2012 game for the Nintendo 3DS.
Elle Billing (02:43):
Oh, cool.
Ryan Barnes (02:43):
Where like the advertising thing on it was, it
would teach artists of all skilllevels, skills that they can
apply to their own works,traditionally and digitally.
Elle Billing (02:56):
Oh, cool. That's neat,
Ryan Barnes (02:58):
yeah,
Elle Billing (02:58):
because I know you would, you had done a Koi. You
were telling me about a digital,a digital art program that has
like a physics engine in it, andyou had done a koi fish in that
one too.
Ryan Barnes (03:10):
Oh yeah. Rebel seven,
Elle Billing (03:13):
yeah,
Ryan Barnes (03:13):
yeah.
Elle Billing (03:13):
Okay,
Ryan Barnes (03:14):
yeah.
Elle Billing (03:14):
But these other Koi, these are with traditional
art media,
Ryan Barnes (03:17):
yes,
Elle Billing (03:18):
okay,
Ryan Barnes (03:18):
with acrylic paint.
Elle Billing (03:19):
I guess I can kind of see it behind you, but it's
all blurry, so
Ryan Barnes (03:22):
it's because I got that fancy iPhone LIDAR on.
Elle Billing (03:26):
Yeah, that's cool.
Ryan Barnes (03:27):
There you go.
Elle Billing (03:28):
Ooh, yeah, that is nice. I do. How many koi are you
doing in total?
Ryan Barnes (03:34):
Um, just two, these two, and then, um, I might
follow up with other lessonstoo. But, uh, yeah, in the game,
um, the pigments for the paintsare actual, like real pigments
you can buy in store,So I just matched
it as closely as possible. And
Elle Billing (03:49):
nice.
then, yeah, the first paintingI'm doing is as close to the
instructions as possible. Andthen the second painting I'm
doing is my own interpretationof where the colors actually
need to be closer to you knowhow it is nice. So that's
(04:10):
not usually. That wasn't on thequestions we talked about
earlier, but I was justinterested in what you were
painting today, and I neverasked when we were in studio.
Ryan Barnes (04:21):
No worries.
Elle Billing (04:22):
Yeah, so it's so my first official question is,
how have you received care thisweek?
Ryan Barnes (04:29):
I've been trying to be nicer to myself. Yeah, is one
thing. Some some days it'sharder than others. But you
know, just overall, just tryingto be mindful, trying to include
mindfulness into my art practiceas well. Just because, like, I
(04:52):
don't know, like, these pastcouple days, I haven't been
feeling like the best artist outthere, even though I know, like.
Logically, I'm pretty good. Butyou know, feelings don't
necessarily reflect reality, andI just have to be mindful and
remind myself that art islargely about the journey and
(05:13):
learning the skills and applyingthem, not necessarily about
being like the best of the best.
Elle Billing (05:19):
Yeah. I mean, there's always something that
we're really competent at andother things that we're that are
in our growing space. And Ithink we're always our own worst
critics.
Ryan Barnes (05:32):
Oh yeah, there's a lot of that too. Yeah,
Elle Billing (05:36):
I'm glad you're trying to be nicer to yourself.
What is it? What does it looklike for you to be nice to
yourself.
Ryan Barnes (05:42):
It looks like trying to be more compassionate
and more understanding,understanding of my own, like
current limitations with mydisabilities and stuff, and not
falling into that pit trap of,oh well. When I was in high
school, I was able to, you know,stay up all night, work on
things, go to school, do allthis. And, yeah, I'm in my mid
(06:06):
30s, not, not, no. Plus, I havesleep apneas, so I'm, you know,
it's a good day if I don't takea nap. In the middle of it,
Elle Billing (06:15):
I was laying down on the couch right before we
started doing this. I'm totallywith you there. Yeah. You're
like, in high school, I could doall Yeah, our bodies worked
then,
Ryan Barnes (06:27):
yeah.
Elle Billing (06:27):
And even then, I'm like, did my body actually work
in high school? Or could I justignore it more,
Ryan Barnes (06:34):
right?
Elle Billing (06:34):
Yeah, yeah,
Ryan Barnes (06:35):
yeah. There's a lot of that too. And then just, I
also can't, I'm not sure if it'sthe healthiest thing, but I also
kind of think of it like, now isprobably going to be the easiest
time for me to do things. Youknow what I mean?
Elle Billing (06:53):
Like, I'm not getting any better, right? Like,
is that what you mean?
Ryan Barnes (06:58):
Like, yeah, like, entropy is a thing. I think it's
as healthy as I'm ever going tobe again. This is as healthy as
I'm going to be. This is asyoung as I'm ever going to be,
and this is the most clear myschedule will ever be.
Elle Billing (07:12):
Uh huh, yeah,
Ryan Barnes (07:13):
even though it's been hectic, because,
Elle Billing (07:14):
like, your daughter is just gonna be more
active as she gets older, right?
Like, the parenting thing isn'tgoing to get easier,
Ryan Barnes (07:24):
right? And even when it does, eventually,
because, like, ideally, she'llbe able to, you know, Afford a
House at, you know, from a youngadult age. But whatever happens,
happens, but even when she'slargely out of the picture, you
know, living her life, doing herown thing decades away from now,
like, my schedule might befilled up with, like, more
(07:46):
physical therapy appointments,more like marriage counseling or
something. You know,
Elle Billing (07:51):
there's always there's always something, yeah?
Ryan Barnes (07:54):
So right now is the easiest and best time to do it,
because, you know, tomorrow'snot guaranteed.
Elle Billing (08:01):
Yeah. So for sure, yeah. So what you were talking
about being nicer to yourself asfar as your artwork? So what can
you tell us about your yourcurrent creative practice, like,
what are, what does that looklike?
Ryan Barnes (08:14):
So I've, I don't, I don't know if you hear
Blackberry, but she's kind ofgrowl a little bit.
Elle Billing (08:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Barnes (08:20):
She thinks I'm a little crazy. She-- small aside,
but she catches on to anxiety,but she can't tell the
difference between anxiety andexcitement, so she's doing a
little bit of alerting rightnow, because I'm excited to talk
about art practice,
Elle Billing (08:38):
and she's like, Hey, you're elevated.
Ryan Barnes (08:41):
yeah. But so back to the question of what it looks
like in practice. So kind of,one of the new ideas I've been
having is looking at my art lessfrom a like production
standpoint and more from like, abody building standpoint, where
(09:05):
it's less about what the finalproduct is and more about, like,
just getting your time in thegym.
Elle Billing (09:15):
Okay,
Ryan Barnes (09:15):
you know,
Elle Billing (09:16):
yeah, yeah. Like, the the show up and get the work
like, show up and work out,build your muscles, yeah? Like
your take your your artisticmuscles, yeah,
Ryan Barnes (09:27):
right. And like, some days at the gym are going
to be great, and you're going tofeel great going in and feel
great going out. Some daysyou're not going to want to be
there, but then end up, like,loving it halfway through. And
some days you're going to hateit from the beginning, you're
gonna hate it from the end.
Elle Billing (09:43):
And don't skip leg day, right?
Ryan Barnes (09:46):
But the important thing is, you show up, and you
show up for yourself.
Elle Billing (09:51):
What's the art version of leg day? Do you
suppose? What's your leg day?
Like, don't skip leg day. Like,what's your leg day as far as
the in the artistic gym?
Ryan Barnes (10:01):
I guess, fundamentals and anatomy,
Elle Billing (10:05):
oh so hard. I just tried to draw a hand yesterday,
and I wanted to cry,
Ryan Barnes (10:12):
yeah, if only they could draw themselves, right?
Oh, wait a minute, hands do drawthemselves? So meta?
Elle Billing (10:22):
Yeah. Anatomy. I think any drawing, actually, for
me is, is probably leg day. Imean, you're at least in art
school, where you get to take,right, some of these, like
fundamental classes, and you'llget to take figure drawing. And
I'm, my my art instruction hasbeen very much a Frankenstein's
(10:46):
monster of like, what do I wantto learn? Now, let me find some
sort of resource to try and dothis. And so I have huge gaps,
and I have other areas where I'mlike, No, I'm I got this down.
This is my favorite thing. I'mjust going to keep doing this. I
don't need to know how to drawbody parts. I will only draw
three quarters of a person. Shewill have no feet, and she'll
(11:06):
have one hand doing one specificpose. And I'm gonna draw it on a
separate sheet of paper and thencut it out and paste it on so I
don't ruin the whole painting.
I'll just make it several timesuntil I get a good one. That's
That's what I did yesterday.
Ryan Barnes (11:21):
No, that's fair,
Elle Billing (11:22):
collaged onto the rest of the painting. I mean, it
works, but that's how I dopeople. They go on the painting
later.
Ryan Barnes (11:31):
And that's the other thing too. And it kind of
goes into the whole like bodybuilding, um, idea of comparison
too is, if it works, it works,yeah, you know, whether you're
doing squats for leg day oryou're like, doing those leg
weight lifts, it doesn't matter,you're putting in the work. And
everyone has their own, like,way of doing that. Yeah?
Elle Billing (11:55):
We get to make our own rules, I guess. Yeah, the
workout that works for us,that's a good--
Ryan Barnes (12:01):
right. And we're very much like 2d artists in
that aspect, so we're not eventouching 3d stuff, and 3d
fundamentals looks completelydifferent than that. So like you
doing your collage and mixedmedia thing, that's completely
valid. And there are some thingsthat you just don't need to know
for that style of art,
Elle Billing (12:22):
right? And I, I tend to pick there's, there
tends to be one thing in eachcollection that is, like, this
is a new skill. I need to beable to pull this off, right?
Like, I've never put hands in a,like on a I've done faces like,
I've never done whole bodies. Sonow I, oh, shoot, I'm doing a
(12:44):
saint. Most, most of the saint,she kind of gets cut off at the
just below the knee, like, and Igotta have a hand like, I gotta
put an arm and a hand on her.
Now, what do I do? But, likelast, my last series doing a
face was, like, a more realisticshaded face, as opposed to just
like, line drawing with weirdstuff. I was like, Okay, that
(13:04):
was the the new thing, and thatwas really hard for me, right?
Well, now this series has twotwo people, like, there's two
separate paintings that havefaces. I was like, I'm really
gonna regret putting twoportraits in this collection. I
was like, Nope, it's the hand. Iregret the hand. That's the new
thing and it-- but there'salways something. It's like
(13:25):
every series happens at acertain time for a reason, and
it's because that's where myskills are, and that's what I,
where I need to be going next,right?
Ryan Barnes (13:35):
And that that's exactly what it is, is with art
is, you know, you're learningskills, you're applying those
skills, and then you show offthose skills like, that's,
that's the bread and butter.
It's, it's not necessarily aboutliking or hating the thing that
we produce like, it's nice tolike it, but what's important is
that you learn the skill, youapplied the skill, and you
(13:57):
shared the results.
Elle Billing (14:00):
Yeah
Ryan Barnes (14:01):
you know. And that's kind of that goes into
the whole like, being kind toyourself thing, because, like,
you can easily let yourperfectionism get in the way and
be like, Oh, well, I can't dohands, so I can't do this
series. No, you have to giveyourself permission to struggle,
(14:21):
you know, so that you can learnand overcome from that you know,
and be okay with it, that it'sgonna suck a little bit at
first, but like you just workthrough it, be kind to yourself.
See it to the end, take yournotes and then move on to the
next thing.
Elle Billing (14:38):
Yeah, and really, being an artist has helped me
overcome a lot of myperfectionism. Like, I still
have that, like, but it doesn'thave to be perfect, and that
I've really, I think, grown inthat area a lot in the last five
or six years. So,
Ryan Barnes (14:54):
oh for sure,
Elle Billing (14:56):
yeah, I have to, or I'd never show anybody
anything.
Ryan Barnes (15:00):
Right? And like, perfect is such an impossible
standard too, because we're notmachines. Like, no, if you want
perfect representation, that'swhat cameras are for,
Elle Billing (15:09):
exactly that's become a photographer. Yeah,
there's Winkie. She saw or heardsome-- Well, she didn't hear
anything. She saw them. She felta vibration. There's just there
was a disturbance in the Force.
So I've been a fly on the wallas you've been working on one of
this, not the koi, I mean, yes,the koi series, which we just
(15:29):
talked about, but also theseries of paintings you've been
doing that have, like thesevoids in them.
Ryan Barnes (15:35):
Yes,
Elle Billing (15:36):
what can you tell us about those? Those have been
kind of fun to watch.
Ryan Barnes (15:39):
So those ones, it was kind of idea that came to me
during one of the classassignments where we had to
paint a realistic landscape andthen paint something abstract
into it. And so I painted usinga photo reference that I took
when I was in Norway. I paintedthe Norwegian Sea, and then
(16:02):
added the picture stone style ofViking ship onto the water. And
the kind of idea behind that isthat they're both matching in
themes, but not in style, whichis kind of a reflection of how I
(16:22):
felt for, like, the first year,and still, like a little bit
now, coming home after gettingout of the military is, you
know, I came back to myhometown, and the hole that I
left, I don't quite fit inanymore, and the town has also
(16:43):
moved on around that hole.
Elle Billing (16:45):
Yeah
Ryan Barnes (16:46):
and that's kind of what these void paintings are
trying to depict. Is that okay,these two themes match, like
it's Norway and then Norsepicture, stone drawing, but they
don't fit because that's notNorway anymore.
Elle Billing (17:02):
The two don't fit together. Yeah, yeah, my
experience is similar, butdifferent. I wasn't in the
military, but I did sort ofexile myself from my home for a
long time. I'd come back tovisit twice a year, but then
when I moved home after half mylife, I graduated at 18 and went
(17:26):
to college and then went and gotmy first job and came back at 36
like, half my life, yeah, thatwhole feeling of like, this
feels like home, but also somuch has changed. Like, I mean,
I've changed a lot, yeah, likewhen I left, I've said this
before on the podcast, but likewhen I left, I was dating my
(17:47):
high school sweetheart, and thenmarried to my high school
sweetheart, I was very much inthe closet. I was a
perfectionist, workaholic, highachieving, high performing, you
know, all of those things, highexpectations. When I came home,
I was divorced. I was very outof the closet. I had quit my
job, sold my house, I was barelyfunctional. I sleep 14 hours a
(18:11):
day. I can't work more than twoor three hours at a time, very
much not high performanceanymore. I was very burned out,
like that's, that's a bigchange. That's-- and to come
home to a place where peoplehave only known the first
version of you, yeah, yeah. Thatvoid. It's the square peg in a
(18:32):
round hole thing, that feeling Iget, I get it that, right? Maybe
that's why I like your voidpainting so much when you're,
when I've seen you working onthem, because, like, that
feeling resonates with me.
Ryan Barnes (18:46):
I appreciate that because, like for me, that's
also a mark of a successful artpiece, as if the message, you
know, comes through, right
Elle Billing (18:57):
and that that's something that I'm teaching a
workshop this month on the artof personal narrative. And part
of what I think about that,including, you know, personal
stuff and artwork, is like, evenif like, it's better to get
really, really specific, eventhough you might not think it
resonates because like, you'relike that the Nor-, the
(19:21):
Norwegian coast and a Norseboat, and your experience of
coming home from the militarythat is really, really niche.
Like, how many people are goingto relate to that specific
thing? But like, it works, I gotit, right? because the emotion
that it evokes is much moreuniversal. I mean, not great
(19:42):
universal, but it, but like,people get it, yeah, and being
really specific, and there's oneof your void paintings is behind
you. Other people won't be ableto see it when they listen to
this podcast, but it's downtownSeattle, right, with a big
circle void in the middle of it.
Like. Right? That one I've beento Seattle once in my life,
(20:03):
sure, so I didn't recognize theskyline, but like I rec-, I get
the feeling of that emptiness inthe middle of a, of a crowded
metropolitan area; like it stillresonates with me, and it would
resonate with somebody who knewthe skyline even more sure, like
but, and it's-- but, it's thespecificity that does it. It's
(20:23):
like the attention to detail andthe attention to your specific
niche experience that that makesit resonate,
Ryan Barnes (20:33):
right. And I'm glad that you mentioned the Seattle
one, because between the two,because, like I said the first
one was kind of the version 1.0beta. This one's also a bit of a
beta, because I actuallyconsider that one a bit of a
failure of a piece. Because whenI show it to people without them
(20:54):
knowing that's part of the Voidseries, they just ask, what's
the giant egg in the middle? Solike the message doesn't come
quite across as nicely as it didfor the Norwegian one, where you
could recognize, okay, realisticlandscape, picture, stone, long
(21:14):
ship, okay?
Elle Billing (21:16):
Because the Void is just blank, as opposed to
being a simplified, stylisticthing, right?
Ryan Barnes (21:23):
So it's a little too far into the abstract, okay?
And that's not a bad thing, likeagain, being nice to myself. I
don't think that that makes me abad artist. It's just that piece
to me anyway, isn't assuccessful because it doesn't
read right without context. Sonow that I actually start to
(21:45):
approach doing an actual seriesof paintings, I'm more focused.
I know, okay, I'm going to keepdoing like Norwegian landscapes
paired with Old Norse styledrawings, and the only super
different thing is, because Ihave a Cricut, I'm going to be
(22:07):
cutting out the shapes and vinyland building my own canvas. So
instead of it being the whitegesso or gesso that you saw in
the original Norse painting, isgoing to be raw canvas.
Elle Billing (22:22):
Ooh, very cool. So you'll just, like, put the vinyl
down, do your whole paintingover it, and then peel the vinyl
off and have just clean,pristine. Ooh, very nice.
Ryan Barnes (22:32):
Yeah. And so, like, the canvas isn't even gonna be
primed until, like, after Iapply that vinyl, so it'll be a
literal hole in the painting.
Elle Billing (22:41):
Oh, I like that, yeah. But like, and you wouldn't
have gotten to that idea if youhadn't done the previous
iterations of the of thevoid,right?
Ryan Barnes (22:50):
No, exactly, yeah.
And so it's wrangling my brain alittle bit to be like, No,
you're not a failure because youwant to do this again. No,
you're not a failure because itdidn't come out right the first
time. It's Yes, it failed, butthat's part of the process,
yeah. And so you just take yournotes.
Elle Billing (23:12):
You got it, got you to where you're going,
right? Okay, I see Blackberry,and you mentioned her a little
bit ago. Her, right?
Ryan Barnes (23:20):
Yes, her
Elle Billing (23:20):
okay. So is it okay if we talk about BlackBerry
a little bit?
Ryan Barnes (23:25):
No, that's totally fine. I was just gonna say she
doesn't mind being misgendered,as long as if you give her
treats and pets. Okay, okay,yeah, yeah.
Elle Billing (23:33):
Cool. So how does your disability and having your
service dog like integrate intoyour life, and how does your art
practice fit in with all ofthat?
Ryan Barnes (23:46):
As far as art practice, I'm probably never
going to work with dry pastelsbecause of having a service
animal, which is fine. I canlive without doing dry pastels
because of the dust, right? AndI don't want her breathing in
like, cadmium from the floor.
Never mind airborne cadmium, youknow, from working on things.
(24:09):
And that's fine. I'm not,pastels aren't really my focus.
Charcoal makes me a little bitnervous, but that's at least
better than, you know, snortingstraight up lead
Elle Billing (24:21):
they actually gave my dog activated charcoal one
time because she ate like, amillion pieces of chocolate. You
know? So charcoal isn't theworst thing your dog could get
into, right?
Ryan Barnes (24:32):
Like, it's still if you have the option to not snort
charcoal.
Elle Billing (24:37):
Oh, absolutely, I'm not recommending the
charcoal or the chocolate.
Terrible idea,
Ryan Barnes (24:44):
but so that's one of the ways that it alters my
practice just a little bit.
Elle Billing (24:48):
Yeah, for sure, it's like, I don't do certain
things in the winter because Ican't spray in the garage. So
like, and I can't spray upstairsbecause the dog is in the house.
And, you know, her respiratorysystem is smaller and more
tender than mine, and I don'thave proper ventilation in my
studio. Where, like, when Ilived in Idaho, it was never
(25:10):
super cold, and so I couldalways at least spray it at
stuff on my porch. Where, hereit's, like, hasn't got above
zero all week. I can't use spraycans in the garage when it's
that cold, right? No, I totallyget how having a pet in the
house can definitely impact thechoices of art materials.
Ryan Barnes (25:31):
Other than that, like she's been good, she alerts
when I'm starting to getanxious. She does, she's a
psychiatric service animal, soshe'll do, what is it? deep
pressure therapy, she'll dogrounding techniques, like
she'll nibble my ears and lickmy face. And I've also noticed
(25:52):
it's a weird behavior, but I'venoticed that if I'm having a
panic attack or anxiety, that'swhen she starts to really focus
on my nose and, like, almoststart picking my nose with her
lower sharp teeth. That's funny,like, good girl. But also,
please stop
Elle Billing (26:10):
my dog licks ears too, but I don't think it has
anything to do with anxiety. Ithink she's just gross. My dog
is not a trained service animalat all. I brought her to my
church one time when we werestill in Idaho, and my pastor
was like, Oh, is this? Is sheyour emotional support animal?
And I'm like, I'm her emotionalsupport human. Like, this is
(26:33):
it's actually very much a twoway relationship here, because
we're both fairly anxious andneurotic. Like, yeah. Like, my
dog could-- can't do crowds. Shecan't do men unless they're,
unless they're neuro divergentmen or queer men, like she's,
(26:54):
she would not pass any testlike, but like, Neither would I.
Like, we're meant for eachother. We just don't go out
together. We just stay home.
Ryan Barnes (27:06):
I mean, sometimes I am her emotional support human
because, like, my wife will,like, yell at her for doing
something wrong, and then she'lljump onto the bed and cuddle
next to me and be like, dad momyelled at me. It's just super
funny. But, yeah, no. I mean,we're a good team together.
Sometimes it's a little bitannoying because, like, I'll be
(27:27):
at the college working onsomething, or at least trying
to, and it takes me a little bitto get set up, because it's not
a permanent location for me, soI don't have everything, you
know, on my desk already. I'llget all set up. And she's like,
Dad, you're too nervous to behere. Cool, thanks.
Elle Billing (27:45):
But I'm already here, and I just got set up.
Ryan Barnes (27:48):
And then she keeps getting woofy, and she keeps
alerting me, and then I'm like,Okay, fine, we'll go home and
I'll work from home, and theneverything's fine, yep, but
yeah.
Elle Billing (27:57):
So since you're in school, and you're at home, and
I'm gonna-- we talked about thisthis morning. I told you I was
gonna ask this. No one ever asksmen this question. So I'm being
subversive, and I'm asking youbecause you're a man. You are my
token cis, het white male of theseason,
Ryan Barnes (28:21):
also purple, because birthmark, so,
Elle Billing (28:24):
oh yeah, you are disabled, though, so, like, it's
not really the
Ryan Barnes (28:28):
one thing I have going for me.
Elle Billing (28:30):
Yeah, you're not as tokenized, right? It's still
a diversity interview, right?
You're still, you're still adude, though. How do you balance
the demands of school and artpractice and raising a toddler?
Like, how do you do it all?
Ryan Barnes (28:48):
Right, so one of the nice things is, I'm still
married, so that's great. Mywife helps me out a lot with
that.
Elle Billing (28:56):
Well, yes, but even like married, married
mothers are asked that, like,how do you balance it all? It's
Ryan Barnes (29:02):
I gotcha and like I have spouse. Like it was a like,
struggle at first when Zelda ismy daughter's name, but when she
wasn't so sure about day cares.
But now that she's in like,school, she loves going to
school, hanging out with theirfriends, hanging out with their
teachers, so that that wasextremely helpful, um,
(29:26):
especially when doing acrylicpaints, because you can't just
stop if you're doing, like, weton wet, because that's it.
Elle Billing (29:34):
Oh, they dry fast.
Yeah,
Ryan Barnes (29:36):
yeah, they dry so fast. Like, especially if your
room's not humid enough, likeit's crazy, that's
Elle Billing (29:44):
what I run into in the winter here, yep, yeah,
Ryan Barnes (29:47):
that's why I'm running into right now. But, um,
which is winter here? But yeah,so it was a real hard struggle
Elle Billing (29:52):
Yeah, I think that's what most of us are
to do anything with paint,because it's like, all right, I
dropped my wife and child off.
Have daycare, and then all of asudden, like, I get home and I
get a phone call, Hey, Zelda iscrying, and she's not being
consolable, so you have to comepick her up and, you know, bring
(30:12):
her home. It's like, okay, cool.
So now I can't paint, plus Ihave to drive another 15
minutes. So that's like, 30minutes not doing why I want to,
but there's, there's a lot ofjust trying to do your best and
to do better than you didyesterday, is really how I'm
(30:33):
balancing it, because I do letthe ball drop in certain areas.
doing, honestly, addingdisability to it makes
everything, makes we have to tryso much harder than
Ryan Barnes (30:49):
right and so, like, I guess really my secret, if you
can't even call that, is oneagain, working being kind to
myself into the practice, youknow, understanding that not
every day is going to be 100%successful, and that's okay,
like, as long as if you know theimportant things are taken care
(31:10):
of, like baby is fed, you know,animals are fed and whatnot, and
bills are paid. But also, like,dropping the ball in tactical
ways, as opposed to havingthings surprise you, like, okay,
yeah, I have some dirty clothes.
I need to go through thelaundry, but everyone still has
clean clothes, so I can drop theball on that today. Or, you
(31:30):
know, something like that,
Elle Billing (31:35):
there was, I don't remember where I read it or who
said it, which sucks, because Ilike to give cite, proper
citations when I can. But it wasa, it was like a professional
career woman who was saying,like, you will drop balls,
right? You just have to figureout which ones are glass and
which ones are plastic.
Ryan Barnes (31:55):
Yes, No, exactly,
Elle Billing (31:56):
and drop the right, and drop the right ones,
right? You know, like, laundry,plastic ball, you know, feeding
baby, that's a glass one.
Ryan Barnes (32:05):
Yeah, yeah, as long as if there's clean clothes to
wear, laundry, and the bane ofmy existence, folding laundry,
never mind putting it away,
Elle Billing (32:15):
oh my gosh, right?
Ryan Barnes (32:16):
Like, not super important, like, as long as if
it's an area where it's notgoing to get dirty, okay, yeah,
not ideal, but let's, let's dothe important things, you know.
Let's focus on career. Let'sfocus on family. Let's focus on,
you know, bigger picture things.
So maybe one day we can afford amaid
Elle Billing (32:42):
dad. I dad. My dad was just talking about that
again this week. He's like, youknow, I keep bringing this up.
He said, Because I think it's areally good idea. He said, But
what if we got a housekeeper?
Yeah, I was like, Oh, I'mtotally for it, because, like, I
thought I was going to be ableto help out a whole lot more
than I am.
Ryan Barnes (33:02):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (33:02):
and my dad can do a lot of house. My dad gets
really domestic in the winterand when he's stressed, and he's
both right now, and so he'sdoing a lot of deep cleaning and
just regular cleaning. And mymom and I both tire out so fast
that we know that as soon ashe's in the field, it's gonna
fall apart again. And I hatethat that happens. I don't like
(33:23):
that about myself. I wish I hadenergy to dedicate to more than
just loading and unloading thedishwasher. But like, the reason
I was laying down before werecorded this is because I took
a shower. I have to recover. Ivacuum something. I have to lay
down. I am not great at domestictasks because they all require
(33:45):
physical energy, right?
Ryan Barnes (33:47):
And or spoons, right?
Elle Billing (33:49):
Yeah. And my mom is at the point where she
doesn't have the self awarenessto stop when she's tired, and so
she'll just keep doing somethinguntil she can't stand anymore,
and then what do you do? Thenwe're like, Mom, you can't and,
like, we'll tell her to stop.
And just like, Oh, I'm fine. I'mfine. Like, and we can't, like,
physically restrain her,obviously, that would also be a
(34:09):
bad idea. And so we're like, wejust need to get somebody else
to do it. And that's okay. Like,there's a there's a creator who
does turning Casey something.
She wrote the book How to KeepHouse While Drowning, and one of
the things that she has saidthat stuck with me is like,
(34:30):
there is no morality attached,and I'm paraphrasing, but like,
there is no morality attached tocare tasks like cleaning and
dishes and stuff like, it'smorally neutral. Cleaning is
morally-- Care tasks are morallyneutral. Like having a messy
house is not a moral failing,not doing the dishes is not a
moral failing. And I was like,Oh, that puritanism really got
(34:52):
in there, didn't it? And like,being able to let go of that has
been helpful for me.
Ryan Barnes (35:00):
Right?
Elle Billing (35:00):
It's, it's really, it's still really hard to to not
feel bad when I can't help, helpout, or, like my dad, with the
stuff that I thought I was goingto be able to help with when I
moved in, right?
Ryan Barnes (35:11):
Like, because, yeah, once, um, I got out the
military, and then when we movedinto our own apartment, like, I
very I'm fine. Um, I reallywanted to do like, the whole
like Way of the House Husband.
Have you seen that show onNetflix?
Elle Billing (35:28):
No. But my my partner, Ricki, we, we say that
she is like, our traveling wife.
So she lives in Chicago with herspouse most of the year and does
wifey stuff there. And then whenshe stays with me, she does
wifey stuff here.
Ryan Barnes (35:43):
Oh, nice, yeah.
Elle Billing (35:44):
Oh, she's great.
She's a really good traveling
Ryan Barnes (35:48):
And in Way of the House Husband, a retired Yakuza
wife.
assassin, is now a domesticatedlike House Husband. And so
there's a lot of, like, crossingof the cultures there with that.
And so I was watching that beinglike, Yeah, I'm good. You know
(36:10):
that that's what I kind of wantto do once I'm out of the
military, is, you know, make mywife a bento box for lunch,
like, every day and like, thatwasn't as much of a possibility,
especially since, like, like,the kitchen is kind of my wife's
area, because she loves cookingand stuff, and so I wasn't able
(36:30):
to sort of get things set up theway that I wanted to to do that.
But then also, like, at the sametime, there are a bunch of other
stuff that got in the way too,like schooling and having a
daughter and like, trying tofocus on career and exhibits and
all that other fun stuff. Andit's like, yeah, man. Like, I
(36:52):
really want to be creative inthis too, but I, again finding
out which balls are plastic andwhich balls are glass, yeah. And
that was just one of the onesthat I had to drop because of
where we're at right now.
Elle Billing (37:05):
Fed is fed. It doesn't have to be a cute bento
box,
Ryan Barnes (37:09):
right? Fed is fed.
We have plenty of food so, like,that's fine. And a lot of the
time my wife takes leftoverswith her to work, yeah.
Elle Billing (37:18):
And there you go, boxed vegan mac and cheese I
eat. That's not cute, but
Ryan Barnes (37:24):
yeah, like you said, there's no morality in,
like, a messy house, like, aslong as if everyone's healthy
and the house is healthy, like,Good, see, fine, yeah, yeah.
Like, just don't let black moldgrow. But that's also like that
that takes some serious neglect,
Elle Billing (37:42):
right? That's a little different, yeah, yeah.
All right. So last question,what is one true thing that you
have learned from your creativepractice?
Ryan Barnes (37:51):
I think that's a good point, Berry, um, but no,
Elle Billing (38:00):
Winkie is really opinionated, too.
Ryan Barnes (38:02):
I think one of the things I learned is that there's
a lot of deprogramming that goesinto adopting the lifestyle of
an artist. There's a lot ofthings about art that were
taught as kids and stuff, andyou almost have to relearn
everything. Like, I mean, themost common thing is, you know,
(38:24):
people say that there's no moneyin art and that there's no
career in art. Meanwhile, youknow, five minutes later,
they're like, Oh, do you see thenew Marvel movie? It's like,
that's all artists. Oh, did, didyou watch it for free? No, no, I
have Disney plus. No, I bought amovie ticket. And, like, I'm
wearing this t shirt that has agraphic design on it. And, like,
(38:47):
cool. What operating system isyour phone? Oh, well, it's
iPhone. Oh, it's not MS DOS,yeah? Like, there's a whole
graphic user interface there.
Elle Billing (38:58):
Like, yeah, art really does touch every area of
our lives.
Ryan Barnes (39:01):
Yeah, and like I said before where, like I
started looking at art less as aproduction thing and more as
like bodybuilding, because artgets taught from a very
industrial viewpoint of, Dothis, do this to produce that,
whereas like bodybuilding islike, Hey, this is how you build
(39:23):
up to what you're trying to do.
And that's what art really is.
Is that, oh, cool. You want tobe better at acrylic painting,
all right? Well, here's what youdo to get there, and you keep
building from there. And it'snot competitive, the same way
that, like industry or sportsare, because there can be
multiple winners, and it's notabout becoming the best, but
(39:46):
it's about pushing yourselffurther to be the better artist
than you were prior, you know,and just that personal growth.
Elle Billing (39:56):
Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Where can. Listeners,
find you on social media.
Ryan Barnes (40:03):
On social media, I'm currently on threads,
Instagram, DeviantArt, blue sky.
But most importantly, whateversocial media platform I'm on,
it's Ryan Barnes Art
Elle Billing (40:16):
perfect.
Ryan Barnes (40:17):
I also have my own website, which is Ryan Barnes
dot art,
Elle Billing (40:21):
great. And, yeah, cool. I will put that in the
show notes so people can justclick on it and find you
Ryan Barnes (40:27):
perfect.
Elle Billing (40:28):
Thank you so much for being here.
Ryan Barnes (40:30):
Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah.
Elle Billing (40:34):
Thank you for joining us on this episode of
Hoorf, to get the complete shownotes and all the links
mentioned on today's episode, orto get a full transcript of the
episode, visit Hoorf podcast dotcom. Join the Blessed Herd of St
Winkus! By signing up for ournewsletter, you can get Hoorf
episodes delivered directly toyour inbox. What's more, you get
(40:56):
invitations to our monthlyCoffee and Biscuits Chat, where
you get to hang out with Rickiand Elle, talk about the show
and connect on the topics thatmean the most to you. You can
sign up for that at hoorfpodcastdot com. If you become a patron
for only $3 a month, you cansupport the creation of this
podcast, help pay my editor andjoin a community of caregivers
(41:17):
out here, just doing our best.
Thank you again for joining meElle Billing, the chronically
ill queer femme who is verytired, on this episode of Hoorf.
Until next time, be excellent toeach other. Hoorf is hosted by
Elle Billing @elleandwink, audioediting by Ricki Cummings,
@Rickiep00h music composed byRicki Cummings. Hoorf is a
(41:37):
production of Elle & Wink ArtStudio, LLC, all rights
reserved. Hoorf can be found onall social media platforms,
@hoorfpodcast, at H, O, O, R, F,podcast,
Ryan Barnes (42:01):
wait a minute, hands do draw themselves?
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:03):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf, radical care in the latecapitalist heckscape.
(01:01):
My guest for this episode isRyan Barnes. Ryan Barnes is a
visual artist from Washingtonstate who works primarily in
digital mediums, paint, penciland charcoal. A lot of his
inspiration comes from stories,comics and manga, animation,
anime and the pop art movement,as well as the world around him.
Ryan is one of the members ofspoonie studio, which I talked
(01:22):
about on the previous episode ofHoorf, and I am excited to have
him on the podcast today. HiRyan. Welcome to Hoorf.
Ryan Barnes (01:31):
Hi, thanks for having me here.
Elle Billing (01:34):
Yeah, thanks for being here. I'm excited to,
well, I'm gonna say I'm excitedto talk to you. I talk to you
every week, but I'm excited totalk to you on the record
Ryan Barnes (01:42):
even earlier today.
You talked to me.
Elle Billing (01:44):
I did. We talked earlier today. We're recording
this on a Friday. We had spooniestudio this morning. You're one
of the spoonies, so yeah, andyou're, you come every Friday,
so we, we talk a lot, and I'vehad a chance to watch you work
on some of your projects. It'sbeen fun. Yeah?
Ryan Barnes (02:01):
Thank you. Yeah. I try to go every day, or not
every day, but every week.
Elle Billing (02:03):
Yeah, it's been nice to get to know you. I
didn't even ask, what were youworking on today? When we were
in the studio,
Ryan Barnes (02:14):
I was, I was working on the second part of
the koi fish painting that I'vebeen doing
Elle Billing (02:21):
the digital one, or are you making an actual
paint one now?
Ryan Barnes (02:25):
No, it's an actual paint one. Part One and Part Two
are both actual paint. But I'vebeen following the instructions
and the tutorial from ArtAcademy Lessons for Everyone,
2012 game for the Nintendo 3DS.
Elle Billing (02:43):
Oh, cool.
Ryan Barnes (02:43):
Where like the advertising thing on it was, it
would teach artists of all skilllevels, skills that they can
apply to their own works,traditionally and digitally.
Elle Billing (02:56):
Oh, cool. That's neat,
Ryan Barnes (02:58):
yeah,
Elle Billing (02:58):
because I know you would, you had done a Koi. You
were telling me about a digital,a digital art program that has
like a physics engine in it, andyou had done a koi fish in that
one too.
Ryan Barnes (03:10):
Oh yeah. Rebel seven,
Elle Billing (03:13):
yeah,
Ryan Barnes (03:13):
yeah.
Elle Billing (03:13):
Okay,
Ryan Barnes (03:14):
yeah.
Elle Billing (03:14):
But these other Koi, these are with traditional
art media,
Ryan Barnes (03:17):
yes,
Elle Billing (03:18):
okay,
Ryan Barnes (03:18):
with acrylic paint.
Elle Billing (03:19):
I guess I can kind of see it behind you, but it's
all blurry, so
Ryan Barnes (03:22):
it's because I got that fancy iPhone LIDAR on.
Elle Billing (03:26):
Yeah, that's cool.
Ryan Barnes (03:27):
There you go.
Elle Billing (03:28):
Ooh, yeah, that is nice. I do. How many koi are you
doing in total?
Ryan Barnes (03:34):
Um, just two, these two, and then, um, I might
follow up with other lessonstoo. But, uh, yeah, in the game,
um, the pigments for the paintsare actual, like real pigments
you can buy in store,So I just matched
it as closely as possible. And
Elle Billing (03:49):
nice.
then, yeah, the first paintingI'm doing is as close to the
instructions as possible. Andthen the second painting I'm
doing is my own interpretationof where the colors actually
need to be closer to you knowhow it is nice. So that's
(04:10):
not usually. That wasn't on thequestions we talked about
earlier, but I was justinterested in what you were
painting today, and I neverasked when we were in studio.
Ryan Barnes (04:21):
No worries.
Elle Billing (04:22):
Yeah, so it's so my first official question is,
how have you received care thisweek?
Ryan Barnes (04:29):
I've been trying to be nicer to myself. Yeah, is one
thing. Some some days it'sharder than others. But you
know, just overall, just tryingto be mindful, trying to include
mindfulness into my art practiceas well. Just because, like, I
(04:52):
don't know, like, these pastcouple days, I haven't been
feeling like the best artist outthere, even though I know, like.
Logically, I'm pretty good. Butyou know, feelings don't
necessarily reflect reality, andI just have to be mindful and
remind myself that art islargely about the journey and
(05:13):
learning the skills and applyingthem, not necessarily about
being like the best of the best.
Elle Billing (05:19):
Yeah. I mean, there's always something that
we're really competent at andother things that we're that are
in our growing space. And Ithink we're always our own worst
critics.
Ryan Barnes (05:32):
Oh yeah, there's a lot of that too. Yeah,
Elle Billing (05:36):
I'm glad you're trying to be nicer to yourself.
What is it? What does it looklike for you to be nice to
yourself.
Ryan Barnes (05:42):
It looks like trying to be more compassionate
and more understanding,understanding of my own, like
current limitations with mydisabilities and stuff, and not
falling into that pit trap of,oh well. When I was in high
school, I was able to, you know,stay up all night, work on
things, go to school, do allthis. And, yeah, I'm in my mid
(06:06):
30s, not, not, no. Plus, I havesleep apneas, so I'm, you know,
it's a good day if I don't takea nap. In the middle of it,
Elle Billing (06:15):
I was laying down on the couch right before we
started doing this. I'm totallywith you there. Yeah. You're
like, in high school, I could doall Yeah, our bodies worked
then,
Ryan Barnes (06:27):
yeah.
Elle Billing (06:27):
And even then, I'm like, did my body actually work
in high school? Or could I justignore it more,
Ryan Barnes (06:34):
right?
Elle Billing (06:34):
Yeah, yeah,
Ryan Barnes (06:35):
yeah. There's a lot of that too. And then just, I
also can't, I'm not sure if it'sthe healthiest thing, but I also
kind of think of it like, now isprobably going to be the easiest
time for me to do things. Youknow what I mean?
Elle Billing (06:53):
Like, I'm not getting any better, right? Like,
is that what you mean?
Ryan Barnes (06:58):
Like, yeah, like, entropy is a thing. I think it's
as healthy as I'm ever going tobe again. This is as healthy as
I'm going to be. This is asyoung as I'm ever going to be,
and this is the most clear myschedule will ever be.
Elle Billing (07:12):
Uh huh, yeah,
Ryan Barnes (07:13):
even though it's been hectic, because,
Elle Billing (07:14):
like, your daughter is just gonna be more
active as she gets older, right?
Like, the parenting thing isn'tgoing to get easier,
Ryan Barnes (07:24):
right? And even when it does, eventually,
because, like, ideally, she'llbe able to, you know, Afford a
House at, you know, from a youngadult age. But whatever happens,
happens, but even when she'slargely out of the picture, you
know, living her life, doing herown thing decades away from now,
like, my schedule might befilled up with, like, more
(07:46):
physical therapy appointments,more like marriage counseling or
something. You know,
Elle Billing (07:51):
there's always there's always something, yeah?
Ryan Barnes (07:54):
So right now is the easiest and best time to do it,
because, you know, tomorrow'snot guaranteed.
Elle Billing (08:01):
Yeah. So for sure, yeah. So what you were talking
about being nicer to yourself asfar as your artwork? So what can
you tell us about your yourcurrent creative practice, like,
what are, what does that looklike?
Ryan Barnes (08:14):
So I've, I don't, I don't know if you hear
Blackberry, but she's kind ofgrowl a little bit.
Elle Billing (08:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Barnes (08:20):
She thinks I'm a little crazy. She-- small aside,
but she catches on to anxiety,but she can't tell the
difference between anxiety andexcitement, so she's doing a
little bit of alerting rightnow, because I'm excited to talk
about art practice,
Elle Billing (08:38):
and she's like, Hey, you're elevated.
Ryan Barnes (08:41):
yeah. But so back to the question of what it looks
like in practice. So kind of,one of the new ideas I've been
having is looking at my art lessfrom a like production
standpoint and more from like, abody building standpoint, where
(09:05):
it's less about what the finalproduct is and more about, like,
just getting your time in thegym.
Elle Billing (09:15):
Okay,
Ryan Barnes (09:15):
you know,
Elle Billing (09:16):
yeah, yeah. Like, the the show up and get the work
like, show up and work out,build your muscles, yeah? Like
your take your your artisticmuscles, yeah,
Ryan Barnes (09:27):
right. And like, some days at the gym are going
to be great, and you're going tofeel great going in and feel
great going out. Some daysyou're not going to want to be
there, but then end up, like,loving it halfway through. And
some days you're going to hateit from the beginning, you're
gonna hate it from the end.
Elle Billing (09:43):
And don't skip leg day, right?
Ryan Barnes (09:46):
But the important thing is, you show up, and you
show up for yourself.
Elle Billing (09:51):
What's the art version of leg day? Do you
suppose? What's your leg day?
Like, don't skip leg day. Like,what's your leg day as far as
the in the artistic gym?
Ryan Barnes (10:01):
I guess, fundamentals and anatomy,
Elle Billing (10:05):
oh so hard. I just tried to draw a hand yesterday,
and I wanted to cry,
Ryan Barnes (10:12):
yeah, if only they could draw themselves, right?
Oh, wait a minute, hands do drawthemselves? So meta?
Elle Billing (10:22):
Yeah. Anatomy. I think any drawing, actually, for
me is, is probably leg day. Imean, you're at least in art
school, where you get to take,right, some of these, like
fundamental classes, and you'llget to take figure drawing. And
I'm, my my art instruction hasbeen very much a Frankenstein's
(10:46):
monster of like, what do I wantto learn? Now, let me find some
sort of resource to try and dothis. And so I have huge gaps,
and I have other areas where I'mlike, No, I'm I got this down.
This is my favorite thing. I'mjust going to keep doing this. I
don't need to know how to drawbody parts. I will only draw
three quarters of a person. Shewill have no feet, and she'll
(11:06):
have one hand doing one specificpose. And I'm gonna draw it on a
separate sheet of paper and thencut it out and paste it on so I
don't ruin the whole painting.
I'll just make it several timesuntil I get a good one. That's
That's what I did yesterday.
Ryan Barnes (11:21):
No, that's fair,
Elle Billing (11:22):
collaged onto the rest of the painting. I mean, it
works, but that's how I dopeople. They go on the painting
later.
Ryan Barnes (11:31):
And that's the other thing too. And it kind of
goes into the whole like bodybuilding, um, idea of comparison
too is, if it works, it works,yeah, you know, whether you're
doing squats for leg day oryou're like, doing those leg
weight lifts, it doesn't matter,you're putting in the work. And
everyone has their own, like,way of doing that. Yeah?
Elle Billing (11:55):
We get to make our own rules, I guess. Yeah, the
workout that works for us,that's a good--
Ryan Barnes (12:01):
right. And we're very much like 2d artists in
that aspect, so we're not eventouching 3d stuff, and 3d
fundamentals looks completelydifferent than that. So like you
doing your collage and mixedmedia thing, that's completely
valid. And there are some thingsthat you just don't need to know
for that style of art,
Elle Billing (12:22):
right? And I, I tend to pick there's, there
tends to be one thing in eachcollection that is, like, this
is a new skill. I need to beable to pull this off, right?
Like, I've never put hands in a,like on a I've done faces like,
I've never done whole bodies. Sonow I, oh, shoot, I'm doing a
(12:44):
saint. Most, most of the saint,she kind of gets cut off at the
just below the knee, like, and Igotta have a hand like, I gotta
put an arm and a hand on her.
Now, what do I do? But, likelast, my last series doing a
face was, like, a more realisticshaded face, as opposed to just
like, line drawing with weirdstuff. I was like, Okay, that
(13:04):
was the the new thing, and thatwas really hard for me, right?
Well, now this series has twotwo people, like, there's two
separate paintings that havefaces. I was like, I'm really
gonna regret putting twoportraits in this collection. I
was like, Nope, it's the hand. Iregret the hand. That's the new
thing and it-- but there'salways something. It's like
(13:25):
every series happens at acertain time for a reason, and
it's because that's where myskills are, and that's what I,
where I need to be going next,right?
Ryan Barnes (13:35):
And that that's exactly what it is, is with art
is, you know, you're learningskills, you're applying those
skills, and then you show offthose skills like, that's,
that's the bread and butter.
It's, it's not necessarily aboutliking or hating the thing that
we produce like, it's nice tolike it, but what's important is
that you learn the skill, youapplied the skill, and you
(13:57):
shared the results.
Elle Billing (14:00):
Yeah
Ryan Barnes (14:01):
you know. And that's kind of that goes into
the whole like, being kind toyourself thing, because, like,
you can easily let yourperfectionism get in the way and
be like, Oh, well, I can't dohands, so I can't do this
series. No, you have to giveyourself permission to struggle,
(14:21):
you know, so that you can learnand overcome from that you know,
and be okay with it, that it'sgonna suck a little bit at
first, but like you just workthrough it, be kind to yourself.
See it to the end, take yournotes and then move on to the
next thing.
Elle Billing (14:38):
Yeah, and really, being an artist has helped me
overcome a lot of myperfectionism. Like, I still
have that, like, but it doesn'thave to be perfect, and that
I've really, I think, grown inthat area a lot in the last five
or six years. So,
Ryan Barnes (14:54):
oh for sure,
Elle Billing (14:56):
yeah, I have to, or I'd never show anybody
anything.
Ryan Barnes (15:00):
Right? And like, perfect is such an impossible
standard too, because we're notmachines. Like, no, if you want
perfect representation, that'swhat cameras are for,
Elle Billing (15:09):
exactly that's become a photographer. Yeah,
there's Winkie. She saw or heardsome-- Well, she didn't hear
anything. She saw them. She felta vibration. There's just there
was a disturbance in the Force.
So I've been a fly on the wallas you've been working on one of
this, not the koi, I mean, yes,the koi series, which we just
(15:29):
talked about, but also theseries of paintings you've been
doing that have, like thesevoids in them.
Ryan Barnes (15:35):
Yes,
Elle Billing (15:36):
what can you tell us about those? Those have been
kind of fun to watch.
Ryan Barnes (15:39):
So those ones, it was kind of idea that came to me
during one of the classassignments where we had to
paint a realistic landscape andthen paint something abstract
into it. And so I painted usinga photo reference that I took
when I was in Norway. I paintedthe Norwegian Sea, and then
(16:02):
added the picture stone style ofViking ship onto the water. And
the kind of idea behind that isthat they're both matching in
themes, but not in style, whichis kind of a reflection of how I
(16:22):
felt for, like, the first year,and still, like a little bit
now, coming home after gettingout of the military is, you
know, I came back to myhometown, and the hole that I
left, I don't quite fit inanymore, and the town has also
(16:43):
moved on around that hole.
Elle Billing (16:45):
Yeah
Ryan Barnes (16:46):
and that's kind of what these void paintings are
trying to depict. Is that okay,these two themes match, like
it's Norway and then Norsepicture, stone drawing, but they
don't fit because that's notNorway anymore.
Elle Billing (17:02):
The two don't fit together. Yeah, yeah, my
experience is similar, butdifferent. I wasn't in the
military, but I did sort ofexile myself from my home for a
long time. I'd come back tovisit twice a year, but then
when I moved home after half mylife, I graduated at 18 and went
(17:26):
to college and then went and gotmy first job and came back at 36
like, half my life, yeah, thatwhole feeling of like, this
feels like home, but also somuch has changed. Like, I mean,
I've changed a lot, yeah, likewhen I left, I've said this
before on the podcast, but likewhen I left, I was dating my
(17:47):
high school sweetheart, and thenmarried to my high school
sweetheart, I was very much inthe closet. I was a
perfectionist, workaholic, highachieving, high performing, you
know, all of those things, highexpectations. When I came home,
I was divorced. I was very outof the closet. I had quit my
job, sold my house, I was barelyfunctional. I sleep 14 hours a
(18:11):
day. I can't work more than twoor three hours at a time, very
much not high performanceanymore. I was very burned out,
like that's, that's a bigchange. That's-- and to come
home to a place where peoplehave only known the first
version of you, yeah, yeah. Thatvoid. It's the square peg in a
(18:32):
round hole thing, that feeling Iget, I get it that, right? Maybe
that's why I like your voidpainting so much when you're,
when I've seen you working onthem, because, like, that
feeling resonates with me.
Ryan Barnes (18:46):
I appreciate that because, like for me, that's
also a mark of a successful artpiece, as if the message, you
know, comes through, right
Elle Billing (18:57):
and that that's something that I'm teaching a
workshop this month on the artof personal narrative. And part
of what I think about that,including, you know, personal
stuff and artwork, is like, evenif like, it's better to get
really, really specific, eventhough you might not think it
resonates because like, you'relike that the Nor-, the
(19:21):
Norwegian coast and a Norseboat, and your experience of
coming home from the militarythat is really, really niche.
Like, how many people are goingto relate to that specific
thing? But like, it works, I gotit, right? because the emotion
that it evokes is much moreuniversal. I mean, not great
(19:42):
universal, but it, but like,people get it, yeah, and being
really specific, and there's oneof your void paintings is behind
you. Other people won't be ableto see it when they listen to
this podcast, but it's downtownSeattle, right, with a big
circle void in the middle of it.
Like. Right? That one I've beento Seattle once in my life,
(20:03):
sure, so I didn't recognize theskyline, but like I rec-, I get
the feeling of that emptiness inthe middle of a, of a crowded
metropolitan area; like it stillresonates with me, and it would
resonate with somebody who knewthe skyline even more sure, like
but, and it's-- but, it's thespecificity that does it. It's
(20:23):
like the attention to detail andthe attention to your specific
niche experience that that makesit resonate,
Ryan Barnes (20:33):
right. And I'm glad that you mentioned the Seattle
one, because between the two,because, like I said the first
one was kind of the version 1.0beta. This one's also a bit of a
beta, because I actuallyconsider that one a bit of a
failure of a piece. Because whenI show it to people without them
(20:54):
knowing that's part of the Voidseries, they just ask, what's
the giant egg in the middle? Solike the message doesn't come
quite across as nicely as it didfor the Norwegian one, where you
could recognize, okay, realisticlandscape, picture, stone, long
(21:14):
ship, okay?
Elle Billing (21:16):
Because the Void is just blank, as opposed to
being a simplified, stylisticthing, right?
Ryan Barnes (21:23):
So it's a little too far into the abstract, okay?
And that's not a bad thing, likeagain, being nice to myself. I
don't think that that makes me abad artist. It's just that piece
to me anyway, isn't assuccessful because it doesn't
read right without context. Sonow that I actually start to
(21:45):
approach doing an actual seriesof paintings, I'm more focused.
I know, okay, I'm going to keepdoing like Norwegian landscapes
paired with Old Norse styledrawings, and the only super
different thing is, because Ihave a Cricut, I'm going to be
(22:07):
cutting out the shapes and vinyland building my own canvas. So
instead of it being the whitegesso or gesso that you saw in
the original Norse painting, isgoing to be raw canvas.
Elle Billing (22:22):
Ooh, very cool. So you'll just, like, put the vinyl
down, do your whole paintingover it, and then peel the vinyl
off and have just clean,pristine. Ooh, very nice.
Ryan Barnes (22:32):
Yeah. And so, like, the canvas isn't even gonna be
primed until, like, after Iapply that vinyl, so it'll be a
literal hole in the painting.
Elle Billing (22:41):
Oh, I like that, yeah. But like, and you wouldn't
have gotten to that idea if youhadn't done the previous
iterations of the of thevoid,right?
Ryan Barnes (22:50):
No, exactly, yeah.
And so it's wrangling my brain alittle bit to be like, No,
you're not a failure because youwant to do this again. No,
you're not a failure because itdidn't come out right the first
time. It's Yes, it failed, butthat's part of the process,
yeah. And so you just take yournotes.
Elle Billing (23:12):
You got it, got you to where you're going,
right? Okay, I see Blackberry,and you mentioned her a little
bit ago. Her, right?
Ryan Barnes (23:20):
Yes, her
Elle Billing (23:20):
okay. So is it okay if we talk about BlackBerry
a little bit?
Ryan Barnes (23:25):
No, that's totally fine. I was just gonna say she
doesn't mind being misgendered,as long as if you give her
treats and pets. Okay, okay,yeah, yeah.
Elle Billing (23:33):
Cool. So how does your disability and having your
service dog like integrate intoyour life, and how does your art
practice fit in with all ofthat?
Ryan Barnes (23:46):
As far as art practice, I'm probably never
going to work with dry pastelsbecause of having a service
animal, which is fine. I canlive without doing dry pastels
because of the dust, right? AndI don't want her breathing in
like, cadmium from the floor.
Never mind airborne cadmium, youknow, from working on things.
(24:09):
And that's fine. I'm not,pastels aren't really my focus.
Charcoal makes me a little bitnervous, but that's at least
better than, you know, snortingstraight up lead
Elle Billing (24:21):
they actually gave my dog activated charcoal one
time because she ate like, amillion pieces of chocolate. You
know? So charcoal isn't theworst thing your dog could get
into, right?
Ryan Barnes (24:32):
Like, it's still if you have the option to not snort
charcoal.
Elle Billing (24:37):
Oh, absolutely, I'm not recommending the
charcoal or the chocolate.
Terrible idea,
Ryan Barnes (24:44):
but so that's one of the ways that it alters my
practice just a little bit.
Elle Billing (24:48):
Yeah, for sure, it's like, I don't do certain
things in the winter because Ican't spray in the garage. So
like, and I can't spray upstairsbecause the dog is in the house.
And, you know, her respiratorysystem is smaller and more
tender than mine, and I don'thave proper ventilation in my
studio. Where, like, when Ilived in Idaho, it was never
(25:10):
super cold, and so I couldalways at least spray it at
stuff on my porch. Where, hereit's, like, hasn't got above
zero all week. I can't use spraycans in the garage when it's
that cold, right? No, I totallyget how having a pet in the
house can definitely impact thechoices of art materials.
Ryan Barnes (25:31):
Other than that, like she's been good, she alerts
when I'm starting to getanxious. She does, she's a
psychiatric service animal, soshe'll do, what is it? deep
pressure therapy, she'll dogrounding techniques, like
she'll nibble my ears and lickmy face. And I've also noticed
(25:52):
it's a weird behavior, but I'venoticed that if I'm having a
panic attack or anxiety, that'swhen she starts to really focus
on my nose and, like, almoststart picking my nose with her
lower sharp teeth. That's funny,like, good girl. But also,
please stop
Elle Billing (26:10):
my dog licks ears too, but I don't think it has
anything to do with anxiety. Ithink she's just gross. My dog
is not a trained service animalat all. I brought her to my
church one time when we werestill in Idaho, and my pastor
was like, Oh, is this? Is sheyour emotional support animal?
And I'm like, I'm her emotionalsupport human. Like, this is
(26:33):
it's actually very much a twoway relationship here, because
we're both fairly anxious andneurotic. Like, yeah. Like, my
dog could-- can't do crowds. Shecan't do men unless they're,
unless they're neuro divergentmen or queer men, like she's,
(26:54):
she would not pass any testlike, but like, Neither would I.
Like, we're meant for eachother. We just don't go out
together. We just stay home.
Ryan Barnes (27:06):
I mean, sometimes I am her emotional support human
because, like, my wife will,like, yell at her for doing
something wrong, and then she'lljump onto the bed and cuddle
next to me and be like, dad momyelled at me. It's just super
funny. But, yeah, no. I mean,we're a good team together.
Sometimes it's a little bitannoying because, like, I'll be
(27:27):
at the college working onsomething, or at least trying
to, and it takes me a little bitto get set up, because it's not
a permanent location for me, soI don't have everything, you
know, on my desk already. I'llget all set up. And she's like,
Dad, you're too nervous to behere. Cool, thanks.
Elle Billing (27:45):
But I'm already here, and I just got set up.
Ryan Barnes (27:48):
And then she keeps getting woofy, and she keeps
alerting me, and then I'm like,Okay, fine, we'll go home and
I'll work from home, and theneverything's fine, yep, but
yeah.
Elle Billing (27:57):
So since you're in school, and you're at home, and
I'm gonna-- we talked about thisthis morning. I told you I was
gonna ask this. No one ever asksmen this question. So I'm being
subversive, and I'm asking youbecause you're a man. You are my
token cis, het white male of theseason,
Ryan Barnes (28:21):
also purple, because birthmark, so,
Elle Billing (28:24):
oh yeah, you are disabled, though, so, like, it's
not really the
Ryan Barnes (28:28):
one thing I have going for me.
Elle Billing (28:30):
Yeah, you're not as tokenized, right? It's still
a diversity interview, right?
You're still, you're still adude, though. How do you balance
the demands of school and artpractice and raising a toddler?
Like, how do you do it all?
Ryan Barnes (28:48):
Right, so one of the nice things is, I'm still
married, so that's great. Mywife helps me out a lot with
that.
Elle Billing (28:56):
Well, yes, but even like married, married
mothers are asked that, like,how do you balance it all? It's
Ryan Barnes (29:02):
I gotcha and like I have spouse. Like it was a like,
struggle at first when Zelda ismy daughter's name, but when she
wasn't so sure about day cares.
But now that she's in like,school, she loves going to
school, hanging out with theirfriends, hanging out with their
teachers, so that that wasextremely helpful, um,
(29:26):
especially when doing acrylicpaints, because you can't just
stop if you're doing, like, weton wet, because that's it.
Elle Billing (29:34):
Oh, they dry fast.
Yeah,
Ryan Barnes (29:36):
yeah, they dry so fast. Like, especially if your
room's not humid enough, likeit's crazy, that's
Elle Billing (29:44):
what I run into in the winter here, yep, yeah,
Ryan Barnes (29:47):
that's why I'm running into right now. But, um,
which is winter here? But yeah,so it was a real hard struggle
Elle Billing (29:52):
Yeah, I think that's what most of us are
to do anything with paint,because it's like, all right, I
dropped my wife and child off.
Have daycare, and then all of asudden, like, I get home and I
get a phone call, Hey, Zelda iscrying, and she's not being
consolable, so you have to comepick her up and, you know, bring
(30:12):
her home. It's like, okay, cool.
So now I can't paint, plus Ihave to drive another 15
minutes. So that's like, 30minutes not doing why I want to,
but there's, there's a lot ofjust trying to do your best and
to do better than you didyesterday, is really how I'm
(30:33):
balancing it, because I do letthe ball drop in certain areas.
doing, honestly, addingdisability to it makes
everything, makes we have to tryso much harder than
Ryan Barnes (30:49):
right and so, like, I guess really my secret, if you
can't even call that, is oneagain, working being kind to
myself into the practice, youknow, understanding that not
every day is going to be 100%successful, and that's okay,
like, as long as if you know theimportant things are taken care
(31:10):
of, like baby is fed, you know,animals are fed and whatnot, and
bills are paid. But also, like,dropping the ball in tactical
ways, as opposed to havingthings surprise you, like, okay,
yeah, I have some dirty clothes.
I need to go through thelaundry, but everyone still has
clean clothes, so I can drop theball on that today. Or, you
(31:30):
know, something like that,
Elle Billing (31:35):
there was, I don't remember where I read it or who
said it, which sucks, because Ilike to give cite, proper
citations when I can. But it wasa, it was like a professional
career woman who was saying,like, you will drop balls,
right? You just have to figureout which ones are glass and
which ones are plastic.
Ryan Barnes (31:55):
Yes, No, exactly,
Elle Billing (31:56):
and drop the right, and drop the right ones,
right? You know, like, laundry,plastic ball, you know, feeding
baby, that's a glass one.
Ryan Barnes (32:05):
Yeah, yeah, as long as if there's clean clothes to
wear, laundry, and the bane ofmy existence, folding laundry,
never mind putting it away,
Elle Billing (32:15):
oh my gosh, right?
Ryan Barnes (32:16):
Like, not super important, like, as long as if
it's an area where it's notgoing to get dirty, okay, yeah,
not ideal, but let's, let's dothe important things, you know.
Let's focus on career. Let'sfocus on family. Let's focus on,
you know, bigger picture things.
So maybe one day we can afford amaid
Elle Billing (32:42):
dad. I dad. My dad was just talking about that
again this week. He's like, youknow, I keep bringing this up.
He said, Because I think it's areally good idea. He said, But
what if we got a housekeeper?
Yeah, I was like, Oh, I'mtotally for it, because, like, I
thought I was going to be ableto help out a whole lot more
than I am.
Ryan Barnes (33:02):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (33:02):
and my dad can do a lot of house. My dad gets
really domestic in the winterand when he's stressed, and he's
both right now, and so he'sdoing a lot of deep cleaning and
just regular cleaning. And mymom and I both tire out so fast
that we know that as soon ashe's in the field, it's gonna
fall apart again. And I hatethat that happens. I don't like
(33:23):
that about myself. I wish I hadenergy to dedicate to more than
just loading and unloading thedishwasher. But like, the reason
I was laying down before werecorded this is because I took
a shower. I have to recover. Ivacuum something. I have to lay
down. I am not great at domestictasks because they all require
(33:45):
physical energy, right?
Ryan Barnes (33:47):
And or spoons, right?
Elle Billing (33:49):
Yeah. And my mom is at the point where she
doesn't have the self awarenessto stop when she's tired, and so
she'll just keep doing somethinguntil she can't stand anymore,
and then what do you do? Thenwe're like, Mom, you can't and,
like, we'll tell her to stop.
And just like, Oh, I'm fine. I'mfine. Like, and we can't, like,
physically restrain her,obviously, that would also be a
(34:09):
bad idea. And so we're like, wejust need to get somebody else
to do it. And that's okay. Like,there's a there's a creator who
does turning Casey something.
She wrote the book How to KeepHouse While Drowning, and one of
the things that she has saidthat stuck with me is like,
(34:30):
there is no morality attached,and I'm paraphrasing, but like,
there is no morality attached tocare tasks like cleaning and
dishes and stuff like, it'smorally neutral. Cleaning is
morally-- Care tasks are morallyneutral. Like having a messy
house is not a moral failing,not doing the dishes is not a
moral failing. And I was like,Oh, that puritanism really got
(34:52):
in there, didn't it? And like,being able to let go of that has
been helpful for me.
Ryan Barnes (35:00):
Right?
Elle Billing (35:00):
It's, it's really, it's still really hard to to not
feel bad when I can't help, helpout, or, like my dad, with the
stuff that I thought I was goingto be able to help with when I
moved in, right?
Ryan Barnes (35:11):
Like, because, yeah, once, um, I got out the
military, and then when we movedinto our own apartment, like, I
very I'm fine. Um, I reallywanted to do like, the whole
like Way of the House Husband.
Have you seen that show onNetflix?
Elle Billing (35:28):
No. But my my partner, Ricki, we, we say that
she is like, our traveling wife.
So she lives in Chicago with herspouse most of the year and does
wifey stuff there. And then whenshe stays with me, she does
wifey stuff here.
Ryan Barnes (35:43):
Oh, nice, yeah.
Elle Billing (35:44):
Oh, she's great.
She's a really good traveling
Ryan Barnes (35:48):
And in Way of the House Husband, a retired Yakuza
wife.
assassin, is now a domesticatedlike House Husband. And so
there's a lot of, like, crossingof the cultures there with that.
And so I was watching that beinglike, Yeah, I'm good. You know
(36:10):
that that's what I kind of wantto do once I'm out of the
military, is, you know, make mywife a bento box for lunch,
like, every day and like, thatwasn't as much of a possibility,
especially since, like, like,the kitchen is kind of my wife's
area, because she loves cookingand stuff, and so I wasn't able
(36:30):
to sort of get things set up theway that I wanted to to do that.
But then also, like, at the sametime, there are a bunch of other
stuff that got in the way too,like schooling and having a
daughter and like, trying tofocus on career and exhibits and
all that other fun stuff. Andit's like, yeah, man. Like, I
(36:52):
really want to be creative inthis too, but I, again finding
out which balls are plastic andwhich balls are glass, yeah. And
that was just one of the onesthat I had to drop because of
where we're at right now.
Elle Billing (37:05):
Fed is fed. It doesn't have to be a cute bento
box,
Ryan Barnes (37:09):
right? Fed is fed.
We have plenty of food so, like,that's fine. And a lot of the
time my wife takes leftoverswith her to work, yeah.
Elle Billing (37:18):
And there you go, boxed vegan mac and cheese I
eat. That's not cute, but
Ryan Barnes (37:24):
yeah, like you said, there's no morality in,
like, a messy house, like, aslong as if everyone's healthy
and the house is healthy, like,Good, see, fine, yeah, yeah.
Like, just don't let black moldgrow. But that's also like that
that takes some serious neglect,
Elle Billing (37:42):
right? That's a little different, yeah, yeah.
All right. So last question,what is one true thing that you
have learned from your creativepractice?
Ryan Barnes (37:51):
I think that's a good point, Berry, um, but no,
Elle Billing (38:00):
Winkie is really opinionated, too.
Ryan Barnes (38:02):
I think one of the things I learned is that there's
a lot of deprogramming that goesinto adopting the lifestyle of
an artist. There's a lot ofthings about art that were
taught as kids and stuff, andyou almost have to relearn
everything. Like, I mean, themost common thing is, you know,
(38:24):
people say that there's no moneyin art and that there's no
career in art. Meanwhile, youknow, five minutes later,
they're like, Oh, do you see thenew Marvel movie? It's like,
that's all artists. Oh, did, didyou watch it for free? No, no, I
have Disney plus. No, I bought amovie ticket. And, like, I'm
wearing this t shirt that has agraphic design on it. And, like,
(38:47):
cool. What operating system isyour phone? Oh, well, it's
iPhone. Oh, it's not MS DOS,yeah? Like, there's a whole
graphic user interface there.
Elle Billing (38:58):
Like, yeah, art really does touch every area of
our lives.
Ryan Barnes (39:01):
Yeah, and like I said before where, like I
started looking at art less as aproduction thing and more as
like bodybuilding, because artgets taught from a very
industrial viewpoint of, Dothis, do this to produce that,
whereas like bodybuilding islike, Hey, this is how you build
(39:23):
up to what you're trying to do.
And that's what art really is.
Is that, oh, cool. You want tobe better at acrylic painting,
all right? Well, here's what youdo to get there, and you keep
building from there. And it'snot competitive, the same way
that, like industry or sportsare, because there can be
multiple winners, and it's notabout becoming the best, but
(39:46):
it's about pushing yourselffurther to be the better artist
than you were prior, you know,and just that personal growth.
Elle Billing (39:56):
Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Where can. Listeners,
find you on social media.
Ryan Barnes (40:03):
On social media, I'm currently on threads,
Instagram, DeviantArt, blue sky.
But most importantly, whateversocial media platform I'm on,
it's Ryan Barnes Art
Elle Billing (40:16):
perfect.
Ryan Barnes (40:17):
I also have my own website, which is Ryan Barnes
dot art,
Elle Billing (40:21):
great. And, yeah, cool. I will put that in the
show notes so people can justclick on it and find you
Ryan Barnes (40:27):
perfect.
Elle Billing (40:28):
Thank you so much for being here.
Ryan Barnes (40:30):
Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah.
Elle Billing (40:34):
Thank you for joining us on this episode of
Hoorf, to get the complete shownotes and all the links
mentioned on today's episode, orto get a full transcript of the
episode, visit Hoorf podcast dotcom. Join the Blessed Herd of St
Winkus! By signing up for ournewsletter, you can get Hoorf
episodes delivered directly toyour inbox. What's more, you get
(40:56):
invitations to our monthlyCoffee and Biscuits Chat, where
you get to hang out with Rickiand Elle, talk about the show
and connect on the topics thatmean the most to you. You can
sign up for that at hoorfpodcastdot com. If you become a patron
for only $3 a month, you cansupport the creation of this
podcast, help pay my editor andjoin a community of caregivers
(41:17):
out here, just doing our best.
Thank you again for joining meElle Billing, the chronically
ill queer femme who is verytired, on this episode of Hoorf.
Until next time, be excellent toeach other. Hoorf is hosted by
Elle Billing @elleandwink, audioediting by Ricki Cummings,
@Rickiep00h music composed byRicki Cummings. Hoorf is a
(41:37):
production of Elle & Wink ArtStudio, LLC, all rights
reserved. Hoorf can be found onall social media platforms,
@hoorfpodcast, at H, O, O, R, F,podcast,
Ryan Barnes (42:01):
wait a minute, hands do draw themselves?
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com