April 14, 2025 • 45 mins
Content note: this episode contains brief discussions of high-control religious abuse
Elle hosts poet and artist Erika Goveia, who discusses her upbringing in a conservative evangelical church and her deconstruction, and her creative process which involves processing her past. Elle and Erika emphasize the importance of self-acceptance and breaking the cycle of harmful parenting practices, and the healing power of artistic expression.
Links to connect with Erika, and all other resource links, are in the full show notes at hoorfpodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elle Billing (00:00):
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:03):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf (00:17):
Radical Care in a Late Capitalist Heckscape.
(01:01):
My guest for this episode isErika Goveia. Erika is a 29 year
old poet and general arts andcrafts enjoyer. She grew up in a
fundamentalist Christiancommunity in Indiana, but has
since deconstructed and is nowliving in California with her
husband and two step kids. Shedoes office work, attends an
online poetry group semiregularly, and is always looking
for pretty crochet patterns totry. She has had a handful of
(01:23):
poems published, and sometimesposts her art on Instagram. Her
art is about her experiencesgrowing up. I'm excited to have
Erika on the podcast today.
Welcome to Hoorf. Hello, Erika.
Welcome to Hoorf.
Erika Goveia (01:39):
Hi. Nice to meet you.
Elle Billing (01:41):
Yeah, it's so great to have you here. We've
exchanged a few emails, butyeah, this is the first time
we're meeting. Yeah, so excited.
Erika Goveia (01:48):
Thank you for having me on,
Elle Billing (01:49):
of course, you know Ricki, so which is how you
came to be on Hoorf, but thisis, yeah, the first time that
you and I are sitting down totalk. And so I'm really excited
to have you here today. How youdoing?
Erika Goveia (02:02):
I am doing. Okay.
It's a bright sunny day out herein California. I really can't
complain.
Elle Billing (02:07):
Nice. It's actually a bright sunny day here
in North Dakota too. The weatherwas in the, the temp was in the
50s today, it was it's reallynice, which means it's muddy and
my dog is disgusting. I got homefrom after being gone all day,
and she was running aroundoutside and like, like, oh, I
have stuff to carry in. I can'tlet you in the house because
(02:28):
you'll get mud all over thecarpet. So I'm trying to, like,
get in the door and not let mydog in. And my dad, thankfully,
was on the porch, and he's,like, trying to maneuver and
help me out with the whole don'tlet the dog in situation,
because otherwise we end up withmud everywhere. We got it
handled. And now she's backoutside again. So as soon as I
got her, I got her paws cleanedup, and then she's like, Oh,
(02:49):
Papa's gonna do yard work. Ilove yard work. And so she's out
making a mess again.
Erika Goveia (02:54):
Oh, sweetie, yeah, the cycle's never ending when
they're in and out.
Elle Billing (02:57):
Oh, I know. And the mud is so sloppy right now.
It's her favorite thing. So,yeah, it's pretty gross. We go
through a lot of baby wipes inthe spring.
Erika Goveia (03:07):
Oh, that's so smart. Do you keep them, like
at the door and wipe her feet asshe comes in?
Elle Billing (03:11):
So we have a rug, and then her big pillow is right
there. So we go, like, door,rug, pillow, and then I make her
lay on her pillow and I wipe herpaws with baby wipes.
But if I'm notstanding there, she like, if my
Erika Goveia (03:20):
Nice.
yeah, yeah.
Elle Billing (03:23):
And then my mom's like, we have to get the carpet
mom lets her in, or my dad letsher and she goes straight for
the beige carpet, as you do,shampooer out. I'm like, Well,
let it dry. We'll vacuum it up,and we're not going to shampoo
the carpet till spring's over,because she's going to do it
again. I Yeah, really, let'sthink about this. It's gonna
(03:43):
happen again.
Erika Goveia (03:47):
Yeah? You have a system. You have it down. You
know what to do?
Elle Billing (03:50):
Yeah, my house in Idaho, I didn't have any carpet,
so then we just sweep it up. Andthen we moved here, and it was
like, Oh, we have carpet. Okay,it's a pain, but we make it
work. Like that's the long wayof saying it's a nice day. It's
also really gross. That's thedownside. So how have you
received care this week, Erika?
Erika Goveia (04:11):
well, just last night, I got home from work and
I was very tired, and myhusband, Matt, was making
dinner. He was making all ofdinner, and I went and took a
shower, and I went and sat onthe couch for a bit, and he
said, Hey, dinner is ready. Andthat was just really nice.
Elle Billing (04:27):
I love that.
That's really nice. What did hemake?
Erika Goveia (04:30):
He made steak and baked potatoes and veggies and
bread slices. He did the wholething.
Elle Billing (04:36):
That's a very like hearty Midwest dinner right
there.
Erika Goveia (04:40):
Yeah, definitely a treat for us.
Elle Billing (04:42):
Yeah, that's really nice. I love that he did
that.
Erika Goveia (04:45):
Yeah, he's very sweet. I love him.
Elle Billing (04:47):
I love when I'm cooked for or when I don't have
to, like, do all the food prepmyself. Ricki actually gets here
next week, and then I don't haveto cook for myself the whole
time. Ricki does some of thefood prep for me then, or a lot
of it actually, makes my coffee,and it's nice to have somebody
who does that.
Erika Goveia (05:06):
So I love cooking, but there's something special
about the meals he makes.
Elle Billing (05:10):
Yeah, I used to love cooking. Now it's just sort
of like, this is a way I have toexpend energy to feed myself,
although I'm, I've been managingmy energy better lately, so,
like, I can enjoy cooking alittle bit more and playing
around with different flavorsand things again, which is nice,
(05:30):
but I've also been like, reallyintensely painting in the
studio, and so I haven't beenwanting to spend my energy in
the kitchen. I just want to bespending a painting so it's,
it's nice when I can asksomebody else to do it for me.
Erika Goveia (05:46):
That's lovely.
Elle Billing (05:47):
Yeah, so I just mentioned painting in my studio.
But what does your creativepractice look like like? What do
you, what do you do? What isyour approach or process to art,
or artistic endeavors look like.
Erika Goveia (06:01):
Well, calling it a process is very generous
opinion. It's lots of like,snippets of things from here and
there, conversations withfriends or family, just like
stuff that gets stuck in myhead, or I do a lot of my
writing at work. Don't tellanyone. I make a lot of phone
calls, and while I'm on hold,I'll just jot down a few things,
(06:22):
and then I have this verydwindling notepad where you can
tear it off. And so now I haveall these loose squares of paper
in my work bag. And every oncein a while, I do a purge, and
that'll be my poetry. That'll besome of the art ideas that I've
posted online, just veryquickly, put together things
(06:44):
that sometimes work out.
Elle Billing (06:46):
I work a part time job in the evenings, and there's
usually like an hour of deadtime in between tasks, and
that's-- I do writing then. Idon't bring a sketchbook with
me, because I the lighting isn'tgreat. They're like, I
intentionally I don't use thefluorescent lights at work
because they irritate my eyes somuch. I have, like, a special
(07:08):
green light that's gentle formi-, people who get migraine,
but it's not good for sketching.
So usually what I do in thattime is when I'm at work and
listening to audio books, sosort of feeding my soul. But I,
um, I'll write or I'll answerwork, like, work-based, like,
um, business emails. I'll dopodcast prep. So I try to use
(07:29):
that work time for, like, otherenjoyable stuff, similar, like,
when you're on hold, you'rewriting or doodling or
sketching, yeah, I get it. And Iif I hear something in an
audiobook that I'm like, oh,like, I use sticky notes to
like, or my bullet journal tolike, write things down that I
(07:51):
want to remember for later. Andso I have sticky notes all over
my journal and all over insidemy journal. And yeah, I have to
do the purge of my purse whereI'm like, where did all my
sticky notes go? So, yeah, Iget, I get the bag as a process.
I totally get that. So what kindof art do you do?
Erika Goveia (08:08):
I guess, um, oh, gosh. I used to take art classes
when I was in college, and Iwould do these really big, like,
very detailed drawings, becausethat was the class work that we
were assigned, and I reallyloved it. But now since then,
I've kind of gone out of thepractice and then dipped my toes
(08:28):
back in, out again, dipping mytoes back in. So nowadays, it's
looking a lot like sketches onthose little squares of paper
and then slightly largersketches. And then I'll take a
photo of it and email it tomyself in Microsoft Paint, I
will make a very, I don't know,like, kind of like when you were
(08:49):
messing around with paint as akid on the computer, and you
would just make stuff. It's kindof like that, except I'm a
little more focused now, alittle more like trying to do a
thing, yeah,
Elle Billing (08:59):
90s kid art?
Erika Goveia (09:00):
Yeah, exactly,
Elle Billing (09:02):
well, and I know, I guess we'll get into this with
the kind of the next question,like a lot, the art of yours
that I've seen is kind of thatthrowback to, like, processing
stuff from when you grew up. SoI think using paint, Microsoft
Paint, to do the art of based onstuff from the 90s. I mean, that
(09:23):
makes sense to me, like kind ofa throwback medium to talk about
what it was like to grow up inIndiana, in an in the
Evangelical, high controlreligious community.
Erika Goveia (09:37):
Yeah. And it also gives me a little bit of an out,
because if it's moretraditional, or I'm like, oh, I
should be spending more time onthis, I should devote more to
this. It needs to be moredetailed. When it's on the
computer, I feel a little bitless pressure to stay in that
same head space where I'mdrawing about the thing that was
so upsetting. And so it gives memore of like an out for myself
(09:59):
to take breaks.
Elle Billing (10:00):
Yes, oh, that's a really good point, too. So
let's, let's talk about growingup. Yeah, we, I mean, that's
what we emailed about that. Solike you knew I was going to ask
that I didn't spring that onyou. Yeah? Can you tell us a
little bit about how you grewup? Yeah?
Erika Goveia (10:16):
So I grew up in the Midwest, in Indiana, I just
happened to be born into afamily that was in a church that
has been there for generations.
They split off from theMennonites soon after coming
over from Germany in, I believe,the 1800s but my family had been
in that church for sevengenerations, and so we were
(10:41):
there. We were in it. Mygrandfather had gotten a divorce
when my dad was little, and sothere was a little bit of like a
break from the church at thatpoint. But then my father and he
became a young man. He rejoinedand married my mom and started
their family that way.
Elle Billing (11:04):
Okay.
Erika Goveia (11:05):
And yeah, I was raised in the church, um, full
believer. I was very into it. Iloved the church. They were my
family. I didn't always feelwelcome. There was something
like me and my siblings havetalked about this at length, at
least me and my sisters, we justalways felt a little bit
separate, a little bit not quiteas accepted as other families. I
(11:29):
think maybe because of thatdivorce, because they're very
anti-divorce, they believe thatyou should work it out, that you
should stay in it, that kind ofthing. And that's just really
conjecture. I don't really know,like looking back, like with
what I know now, it might havejust been because we were
neurodivergent,
Elle Billing (11:46):
and you just feel different than the people around
you, like you aren't fitting in,Yep, yeah.
Erika Goveia (11:52):
And so I got baptized in the church, became a
member, all of that, andthroughout college, started
deconstructing a bit, and thenby the end of college, I was
like, oh, oh, no, this is notfor me. This is not it. I don't
think I have a future here. MetMatt online soon after that, my
(12:15):
husband, my partner, ended upmarrying him and moving out here
to California, where he livedwith his kids.
Elle Billing (12:21):
Okay, just for clarity, because for people who
may not be familiar withdifferent sects of Christian,
sects of Christianity, like theloudest, I think, voice...I grew
up Lutheran, and I didn't reallyencounter any like
evangelicalism until I went tocollege, and then I was like,
(12:43):
oh, okay, interesting, because Igrew up in a town that basically
had mainline denominations,Catholics and Lutherans and
Methodists. And granted, I wasweirdly sheltered, not
sheltered, but like I was, I wasnaive about the world as a kid.
So for people who are notnecessarily part of the language
(13:07):
and culture of Christianity,there's a lot of different types
of Christianity. The ones whoget the most attention tend to
be, especially right now, tendto be the more conservative
fundamentalist evangelicaltypes. Those are the ones who
are sort of making a lot ofnoise right now in politics. And
there is everything from thatto, like, more progressive
(13:29):
groups of Christians, where onthat and then there's like,
mainline churches fall somewherein between. Where on that
continuum was the church thatyou grew up in? Are they more
towards the conservative side?
Erika Goveia (13:42):
definitely, they would consider themselves
conservative evangelical.
They're a little bit closer to,like the Baptist churches in
general. They had split offfrom, like the Mennonites early
enough that they kind of becamemore, a much more progressive
version. And so you kept some ofthe some of the kind of
(14:03):
high-control, I don't, there'sprobably a better way to phrase
that, but some of thehigh-control aspects of
Mennonite-ism and the Amishfaith, where this is your
family, this is your church,these are the people that you
are growing up with kind of moreisolated, we're like outsiders.
They don't know us. They don'tentirely get us. Look at us.
(14:26):
We're like we're devout, andthey don't understand that. So
stay within our circle. You'llbe safe here. You have to marry
members. If you're a member, ifyou want to marry a non member,
they have to join or you have toleave. So I ended up having to
remove my membership from thechurch.
Elle Billing (14:47):
Okay, okay,
Erika Goveia (14:48):
and yeah, just things like that. Like there
were no like, horses and buggiesor anything.
Elle Billing (14:52):
Oh, right, right.
I wasn't, I wasn't expectingthat. I was more like, as far as
like culturally, and I guesshorses and buggies is
culturally, I meant more interms of, like theology, like
interacting with the world, likemore of the conservative versus
the more progressive ordoctrine. I guess maybe the word
I'm thinking of,
Erika Goveia (15:11):
yeah, it kind of varied from it varied a lot from
family to family too. Like someparents would say, Oh, we don't
have any television in ourhouse. And for us is, like, we
had a television we would watchsome things we had, like, kind
of like a range, depending onhow my parents felt about it.
Like, we'd watch a lot of VeggieTales, things,
Elle Billing (15:30):
okay, yeah,
Erika Goveia (15:30):
I wasn't allowed to watch Mutant Ninja Turtles,
and I'm still a little bit saltyabout that, because I love
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Elle Billing (15:37):
I also loved Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
When I was like, six years old,when my mom asked me where I
wanted to go on vacation, justin conversation, I said I wanted
to go to New York and, like,explore the sewer. And I was
like, I was dead serious. Andshe's like, No, that's not a
thing. I'm like, you think that
Erika Goveia (15:57):
It's amazing you wanted to do that!
Elle Billing (15:59):
I'm like, why not?
That's where the ninja turtleslive. They're not real.
Erika Goveia (16:05):
Hey, sanitation workers get to do it, so should
I
Elle Billing (16:08):
yeah, like, come on, it sounds so cool. No,
actually, it sounds reallygross. And I'm scared of rats.
It's a good reason not to go.
Erika Goveia (16:17):
Another thing about my family is that, well,
at the church I grew up in isthat they're very like
homeschooler friendly andQuiverfull movement Family. Are
you familiar with the Quiverfullmovement?
Elle Billing (16:28):
Yes, yes. I have some some friends who who grew
up in that movement, and theirfamily has also sort of come out
of that movement there. Theirfamily is still in the church,
but not in that part of thechurch.
Erika Goveia (16:43):
Yeah, it's very traditional. Men and women have
their roles. Children are kindof seen, not heard that kind of
deal, and they're also expectedto help with their many brothers
and sisters that kind of takecare of each other and are
parentified, and that way, Imyself have seven brothers and
sisters.
Elle Billing (17:01):
Yeah, there's quite a bit of that in Idaho,
actually, and I lived there fora number of years, and that's
actually where I kind of got tounderstand it a little bit.
Okay, so was there anything inparticular that led to you
deconstructing?
Erika Goveia (17:15):
Yeah, um, I was kind of always depressed as a
kid because of that feeling ofnot fitting in, and because we
were homeschooled, your onlyfriends were church friends or
homeschool group friends thatyou would see once a week or
once a month. And so it's justyou and your siblings and your
(17:35):
parents. For me, it was mostlymy mom, because my dad worked
stay at home. Mom raising us,homeschooling us, and I don't
think she enjoyed it very much.
Like no shade on my mom, that isa lot of work. That is so much
work. I cannot fathom the amountof work that she had to do. But
it also led to being kind ofstuck in an environment with an
(17:56):
adult who's taking care of somany other people, and they're
not having a good time, they arevery stressed, and that comes
back on you. And so then if theyare mad at you in a parental way
that bleeds over into yourschool life, because you're
still dealing with the sameperson like five minutes later,
and if you're not doing well onyour schoolwork, your mom's
(18:20):
gonna be mad at you, because sheknows immediately, just that
kind of thing where it becomes abit of a pressure cooker,
because you're isolated, she'sisolated, and it just, I don't
know, like it's a specialmixture, and I don't recommend
it, yeah,
Elle Billing (18:38):
So sort of just having that, like, depression
and isolation was sort of afoundation to want to
deconstruct, like, wanting...
Erika Goveia (18:49):
oh yeah, you're asking that question! yeah.
Elle Billing (18:51):
So like that you already had sort of that
dissatisfaction when you went tocollege, like you wanted
something more?
Erika Goveia (18:59):
yeah. And I, oh my gosh, I can hear the other voice
in my head being like, Oh, well,it sounds like you weren't
really a Christian if you weredepressed. Because I was very
much something that was toutedat the time.
Elle Billing (19:08):
That was something I encountered when I went to
college, like I started taking--I was depressed from junior high
on, and I started finally takingantidepressants my senior year
of high school, and they, forsure, saved me. And then I got
to college, and that's like, Isaid, that's when I first met my
first, like, evangelical-typeChristians, and someone told me,
(19:29):
You're sinning every time youtake your antidepressants. And I
was like,
Erika Goveia (19:32):
Excuse me.
Elle Billing (19:34):
I was like, exactly, where does it say that
in the Bible?
Erika Goveia (19:38):
So rude.
Elle Billing (19:39):
Yeah, it was super rude. And I was like, I don't
want to hang out with youanymore.
Erika Goveia (19:42):
Oh my gosh, that was another thing we didn't
believe in mental health. Yeah,people who had depression and
anxiety were either lying aboutit or they just didn't have good
enough faith. They were lettingthe devil in. And the I'm going
to be a little bit sassy and saythat that particular church,
(20:02):
it's called the ApostolicChristian church, they are, very
conveniently, about 10 to 20 to50 years behind on cultural
things, purposely according towhat suits them. So actually,
recently, within the lasthandful of years. So like, oh,
you can start wearing weddingrings because there was no
(20:23):
jewelry. And so people wouldn'twear wedding rings either,
because there was a thing whereit's like, Oh, it'll encourage
envy among people. We don't wantcomparisons that kind of thing.
So now, in the last five years,they're like, well, actually,
people are starting to thinkthat we're trying to cheat on
our spouses because we're notwearing wedding rings. So let's
go ahead and do that, you guys.
And just as it be like, it justbecame more and more clear to me
(20:47):
growing up that it was moreabout social pressures and like,
what suited the adults as tolike, what got changed over
time. And so add up adaptations,or put forward as being the most
holy practice, when really it'smore about what suits us at the
(21:09):
time, which is fine, which is tobe expected, but maybe don't
wait until after it's hurt so somany people, and maybe don't be
ascience-minded, or maybe, like,listen to scientists, that would
be lovely. Clinicalpsychologists are not the devil.
(21:31):
They are here to help. They'renot here to steal your children
and take them into a dungeon toplay D and D or something.
Elle Billing (21:40):
Yeah, so have you held on to anything from your
spiritual background? Um,
Erika Goveia (21:48):
I've actually been, that's the thing I've been
parsing through the mostrecently, I think something that
my parents really tried toinstill in us is look for the
people who don't have friends.
Look for the people who coulduse a friend, or who could use
someone to stand up for them andtry to be their friends,
(22:10):
especially if you don't havefriends. The way to remedy that
is to find someone who needs afriend. And I think that did not
work for middle school Erika,because everyone else already
had friends. If my friendsweren't available that day, I
was out of luck. That's fine.
That's fine.
Elle Billing (22:27):
The troubles of the neurodivergent middle
schooler.
Erika Goveia (22:30):
Yeah, exactly. But as an adult, I feel like having
that in the back of my head hashelped me make some of the most
unlikely friendships. Forinstance, in college, Ricki
obviously had friends, but theywere also like, oh, this person
is different. They look a bitalternative. What's their deal?
(22:53):
Maybe I can be friends withthem, and that's how we've been
in poetry class. They were justa really cool person. I loved
getting to know them, and theyactually really, like, changed
my life, because I had neverreally become friends with
someone alternative in that way,and I flubbing my terms,
(23:13):
probably a little bit here,because I'm, like, very nervous
about talking and but yeah, justlike knowing someone who is
living their life in a way thatwas very different from mine,
and they are a good person.
They're just obviously a goodperson, and they're fine. The
devil does not have a hold ontheir life. They're out here
(23:36):
living, they have not beensmitten by the Lord. They are
obviously a joy to have around.
They're obviously doing good inthe world. How can someone being
so good among a world of a bunchof people who just don't care in
general? Maybe, maybe I thinkthat's a glum way to look at the
(23:57):
world in general, but to seesomeone be so good. How am I
gonna look at them and say like,oh, yeah, you're going to hell
because you don't subscribe tothese five things, yeah? How am
I going to look at all the otherwonderful people out there and
be like, yeah, you just didn'tmake the cut. Like, Uncle George
(24:17):
or whatever, who is kind ofweird and creepy to me. He's in
the church. He's fine. He's goneto heaven, even though he said
some really rude shit to me andmy sisters over the last few
decades. He's fine. But thisperson over here is nothing but
a light of hope, nah, nah. Kickhim out. That just didn't sit
right.
Elle Billing (24:35):
No, I get that. So your artwork, how do you, how
does that help you process someof like, the religious trauma
that you still have from growingup the way you did?
Erika Goveia (24:48):
Um, gosh, I think it allows me. It's kind of an
extension. Of finally processingand allowing myself to cry about
things if I need to, to yell andscream about things if I need
(25:11):
to, because we were expected tobe so buttoned up and to be
fine. We were just expected tobe fine with very little
emotional help. Um, I think,gosh, the art process is me
(25:32):
reaching out to myself toprocess those things, and maybe
by sending it into the world tolike the select few people that
I show it to, to also reach outto them and be like, hey, human
experience. Am I right? What awild time.
Elle Billing (25:50):
Yeah, the first. I don't remember which one I saw
first, but Ricki had sent me oneof your Instagram posts of one
of your art little paint artpieces. And I say little, not
to, like, diminish it, but itwas small, tiny,
Erika Goveia (26:04):
yeah.
Elle Billing (26:06):
And, like, the simplicity of how you create
them and make them, like, Ithink helps them pack a punch
for what they're about. Becauseit was like, it's a way of
going, like, Hey, isn't thiseffed up, this thing? Like,
Erika Goveia (26:23):
thank you. That is my goal.
Elle Billing (26:24):
Yeah. It's like, isn't it? Isn't it weird how we
say this to kids? And it's like,yeah, that's so messed up. And I
wish I could remember which oneit was, and I probably should
have pulled up Instagram beforewe started, but I haven't had my
nap today, so I didn't think ofit until just now.
Erika Goveia (26:41):
It's all good,
Elle Billing (26:42):
but it is. It's one of those things like you
said, like, reaching out to,like, your younger self or other
people who grew up the same wayto go,Yeah, like this was messed
up. Like adults said this tochildren, like, some really
weird and terrible shit getssaid to kids in the name of,
like, religion, and that's wecarry that with us, and then we
(27:05):
have to, hopefully, we processit at some point. So, um, is
your poetry about the same typeof thing, or do you write poetry
about something else completely?
Erika Goveia (27:17):
It's very much the same thing. I do branch out a
little bit more in my poetry andlike, try to write about
different topics, but it veryoften comes back to writing
about my experiences growing up,difficulties I'm facing now,
especially because I do stillcarry a lot of those struggles
(27:37):
that I had as a kid forward,like no matter how much I work
on them, I still carry it aspart of me and how I move
through the world now, havingtried to leave that behind is
very much a focus within that.
Elle Billing (27:59):
Yeah. I mean, those are like formative wounds.
They can kind of, they stickwith us for a while. I think
I've said this, even if Ihaven't said it on the podcast.
I've said it when talking aboutmy art to other people, is I did
write a poem one time where thefirst line was, all my poems are
(28:20):
about dirt and my mother, evenmy poems about my dad, which are
about her, by virtue of herexclusion. And so much of my
artwork, even when I don't meanit to be about my mom, is still
about my mom. Ricki and I arereleasing The Failure Experiment
(28:42):
later this month, and it wasn't,I didn't know it was going to be
a bunch, like, have a bunch ofMother stuff in it. But what do
you know, Ricki has motherwounds too? You probably are
aware of this, and there'sseveral poems in Ricki's book
about Mother, like her mom, hermother specifically, but also
(29:05):
the idea of The Mother. And mycollection last year ended up
being very much about mothersand daughters. And so now this
year, I'm like, I'm gonna doartwork based on Ricki's book,
and then I read the book, andI'm like, damn it. There's a
whole bunch of Mother symbolism.
I guess I'm still making artworkabout my mom.
Erika Goveia (29:27):
Oh, we're sharing the Brain Stuff.
Elle Billing (29:29):
It's like, I can't get away from it. I mean, I also
live with my mom and my dad, andI take care of my mom, and it's
like, I'm not gonna get awayfrom it, like, this is my life.
But it is. It's just one ofthose things where, like, it
doesn't matter what medium ordiscipline I'm working in, like,
this is the wound, like, this isit? It formed me.
Erika Goveia (29:53):
I actually have a Book. I think I don't know if
you've mentioned it before onyour show. It's Discovering the
Inner Mother (29:59):
a Guide to Healing the Mother Wound by Bethany
Webster,
Elle Billing (30:04):
no, I that's going in the show notes, and it'll go
on my bookshop. It's right. Ihave a bookshop.org store page
under Elle & Wink. I'll put thatin there too so people can find
it, but I'll probably make sureof it, yeah, and I'll probably
add it to my own wish list, orat least like my, um, see if the
(30:27):
library has an audio book of it.
It is. It's just like the thing,I mean. And some of that comes
from how she grew up and the wayshe was raised in the church
too. Like she grew up in achurch where you didn't look to
the side, you just look straightahead. Don't smile, don't laugh,
and
Erika Goveia (30:44):
wow,
Elle Billing (30:45):
when she was divorcing her first husband, the
church she was in, like, didn'tnotice or care that she was
being abused, like, and thataffects you.
Erika Goveia (30:57):
Yeah, to not be seen, to not be seen when you
need to be seen the most. That'sso hurtful.
Elle Billing (31:05):
Yeah, so I know I know my own answer to this
question, but um, so does thecurrent political situation in
the US reactivate any of thechurch trauma and junk for you?
Erika Goveia (31:18):
Oh, yeah, feeling a little feral out here. I feel
spoiled living in California,but you can't escape it out here
either. I saw a truck the otherweek that was just plastered
with bumper stickers. One ofthem said something like, the
Save Something, Kill a Democrator Liberal. Something about al
(31:41):
Qaeda. Thanks, Biden for alQaeda. Like, just like, all
kinds of, like, weird off thewall Q anon stuff. Yeah, I saw
another one that said Q army ona different car. It's just so
odd to see out in the wild. ButI do feel extremely blessed to
be, to have had the opportunityto move away from my hometown,
(32:08):
especially before COVID hit,before things really intensified
politically, something I wantedto say earlier about the church
that I I'm all over the place.
Elle Billing (32:19):
I am not a linear thinker, you're fine.
Erika Goveia (32:22):
One of the things that upset me and helped in my
deconstruction is that some ofthe things that they adopted for
convenience, more than forgenuine spiritual purposes, was
politics. And after I left, thefurther and further I got away
(32:44):
from it, looking back, the moreI could see how politically
motivated they were. Like, forinstance, very anti abortion and
so, gosh, my parents took us toa tea party protest one time as
children. Like, I'm not going tobe able to think of any good
(33:07):
examples right now, but they'restill pro Trump, yeah, after
these years, yeah.
Elle Billing (33:14):
And I guess the way I grew up in the church,
like, I always felt like thegospel was political, but it was
like a politics of care, notpower. I mean, I didn't, I
didn't think of that like when Iwas a kid. I didn't have the
language for it, but like,looking back on the way that,
like, I can say, oh, because,like, the church my parents go
(33:35):
to, my dad has mentioned severaltimes that, like, our their
vision and mission statementsays Everyone welcome, no like,
and they added the words noexceptions, and they're the only
church in town that that saysthat, because there's three
Lutheran churches in thecommunity, and the one my
parents go to is the only onethat accepts LGBTQ people, like
(33:57):
and like will perform samegender marriages. And for a
while they had, one of theinterim pastors was was a gay
man, and my dad is, like, happythat that's our church.
Erika Goveia (34:09):
Wow.
Elle Billing (34:10):
And there was another church that was a member
of the same Synod, and when itcame down to the LGBT issue,
that church broke away from theSynod, and, like, left and our
church stayed. So, like, that'skind of how I grew up. I mean,
there were growing pains forsure. I'm not saying it's all
(34:32):
been sunshine and rainbows. Iwas a queer kid in the 90s in
North Dakota, but as far aslike, like, I also kind of
lucked out, because the way thatmost of the people around me
viewed the politics side of itwas like, a politics of like,
taking care of other people, asopposed to like, having control
(34:55):
over them.
Erika Goveia (34:56):
Yes, yes, the Yeah. Paternalism is very
strong, and if you're not partof us, you don't know what's
right for you, and you need tojoin us in order to be okay.
Elle Billing (35:10):
So you have two step children, uh,
Erika Goveia (35:15):
yes, yeah, okay.
Elle Billing (35:17):
So how? I mean, obviously you parent them
differently than you wereparented. How do you approach co
parenting your step childrendifferently than how like you
were parented? How does that?
How does that look?
Erika Goveia (35:30):
Um, you know what?
It's been a weird, roughprocess, but I feel like we are
finally stepping into what worksfor us, and that's been the
biggest thing, is just givingmyself and all of us, giving
like as a family, givingourselves permission to do what
works for us instead of what'sprescribed as the best way to
(35:54):
be. I think, if nothing else,that's been the biggest
realization of my life is thatif you're not hurting anyone,
you can just do what works foryou. You don't have to be a
certain way. You don't have tolook a certain way in order to
be valid as a human being, inorder to have a life that's
(36:16):
worth living, we don't have toeat at the dining table, if
sitting on the floor in theliving room works better for us
while we're eating, I don't haveto have the house perfectly
cleaned. My mother isn't goingto come out of nowhere and slap
my hand for not wiping down thebaseboards. I can be a bit of a
(36:38):
mess and still be worth loving,
Elle Billing (36:45):
yeah
Erika Goveia (36:45):
and still be a good representation of what a
human being can be. I don't haveto have a all together, and I
don't have to keep my problemsto myself, and I can hear the
little voice in my head goingagain like we never told you
that you had to keep it all toyourself. It's like, well, you
didn't listen very well when Ihad my problems. You were fine
(37:07):
listening to certain problems.
You were absolutely fine if Iwanted to come forward and
confess sin, or if I wantedadvice about something. But if
you're not there for me, when Isay, hey, this isn't working for
me, this is actually making mefeel really bad. I'm not
comfortable with this. I'm notcomfortable with that particular
(37:27):
person. I'm not comfortable withthis situation. The answer is,
well, you need to just getthrough it, because this is
inconvenient for us that you arenot feeling it right now. And
gosh, my sisters and I had aconversation with my mom one
day. We all met up together inSan Diego, and something broke.
(37:48):
One of my sisters was getting alittle bit criticized, and my
other sister criticized by mymom and my other sister joined
in, and something just snapped,and I was like, No, fuck you. We
don't have to do this. Do youhave any idea how much not being
(38:12):
heard and being told that weabsolutely have to be this
certain way has hurt us. Do youhave any idea how much it's hurt
us? Do you have, do you evencare? Like, the whole purity
culture thing big into that, youknow, being told that the
example we were given is, oh,your heart is like an apple, and
(38:35):
every time you have sex withsomeone, a slice gets taken out
of it, and then you're just thisapple slice is being held
together. Like, like, I don'tknow, just like, all the ways
that you're told that you'regarbage if you don't live your
life exactly the way they wantyou to, if you step out of line,
I'm sorry, you're just trash.
You're like, a band aid. We'regonna rip you off and throw you
(38:56):
out. And that was kind of myexperience when I left. Like, a
lot of people were like, Oh, welove you so much. We hope you'll
come back. We want you to visit.
We hope you'll come back to thechurch. And then, in a lot of
other ways, it was like, kind ofdon't care. You're kind of just
garbage. Now, I don't reallycare. Like, Oh my gosh, one of
(39:17):
my uncles and one of his friendswas really shitty to me on
Facebook when I was like,actually, electric cars don't do
the bad environmental thing asmuch as what you're saying. Just
like, I don't know, just random,weird stuff is such a hairpin
trigger for just absolute like,oh, okay, you're not part of us
(39:37):
anymore. That's a very long,circuitous way of not even
answering your question. I don'tthink,
Elle Billing (39:47):
no, I think you got, you got to it like, like,
you're able to recognize theways that you were harmed by
ways that you were raised, andlike, break that cycle.
Erika Goveia (39:59):
Yeah. Yes, thank you. Oh yeah. I had a point in
there, yeah. So just like, gosh,it was really hard at first,
because I had all these ideasabout what a parent was supposed
to be and what things weresupposed to look like, and
letting go of that was hardbecause I wanted to do well. I
really did. I really wanted tobe a good Christian in that
(40:19):
church, in the way that I wassupposed to and it just was
killing me. I think if I hadstayed, I might not be alive
today. I don't know
Elle Billing (40:30):
I understand that feeling, yeah, yeah.
Erika Goveia (40:32):
Like I just could not see a future there where I
was well and alive, like therewas just no room for me. And
being a stepmom really made meconfront that more than I think
just moving out here and beingmarried to someone without kids
would have, because it's like,Oh, what is the effect I'm
(40:56):
having on other people by havingthese attitudes? What am I
bringing into the world, and isit actually constructive?
Elle Billing (41:05):
Yeah, my sister and I have a lot of
conversations about breaking thecycle and and things like that,
because she also has two stepchildren, and like, she wasn't
going to be a parent, and thenshe fell in love with a guy with
two kids, and she fell in lovewith his kids, and she's like,
well, of course, I'm going tomarry him, and we're going to--
I'm marrying the whole family!and she's really good at it.
(41:28):
And, yeah, we have a lot ofthose conversations, and I
sometimes feel like I'm havingthe opportunity to reparent my
mom in a way, right? And it's,but I'm reparenting myself more,
right? in the relationship oftaking care of my mom. and so we
(41:51):
have these conversations all thetime, and it's, it's hard, but,
like, it's healing to be ableto, like, make those choices
differently than how they weremade for us.
Erika Goveia (41:55):
Yeah
Elle Billing (41:55):
that's super important. So last question,
what is one true thing that youhave learned from your creative
practice?
Erika Goveia (42:04):
Oh, let me see what I wrote down, because I
can't remember now, I think Iwent like what I said earlier.
Oh, I have a-- I did writesomething. It's that there are
good, loving people out therewho won't judge you for being a
mess, people who create andbring joy, who are able to sit
with dark emotions and come outthe other side. And I have a
quote from Mary Oliver (42:25):
"whoever you are, no matter how lonely
The world offers itself to yourimagination calls to you like
the wild geese, harsh andexciting over and over,
announcing your place in thefamily of things." from her
poem, wild geese.
Elle Billing (42:45):
That's a great poem.
Erika Goveia (42:47):
And just it doesn't matter what people's
opinions of me are, what mattersis, am I doing a good job as a
person in the world? Are notonly my intentions good, but are
the effects of my actions good?
And Am I satisfied with who I amand what I'm doing? And that's
(43:08):
it. Anything beyond that is justsalesmanship or bullshit, and I
probably have a bit morebullshit in me to weed out, but
I am so happy and so gratefulfor the life I have now, because
I got to choose it, yeah.
Elle Billing (43:28):
Well, thank you for being here. I really
appreciate our conversationtoday. Thank you. This was good.
Erika Goveia (43:34):
This was really good. Thank you so much. Yeah,
Elle Billing (43:36):
thank you for joining us on this episode of
Hoorf. to get the complete shownotes and all the links
mentioned on today's episode, orto get a full transcript of the
episode, visit Hoorf podcast dotcom
Join the Blessed Herd of SaintWinkus! By signing up for our
newsletter, you can get Hoorfepisodes delivered directly to
(43:58):
your inbox. What's more, you getinvitations to our monthly
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dot com; If you become a patronfor only $3 a month, you can
support the creation of thispodcast, help pay my editor, and
(44:19):
join a community of caregiversout here, just doing our best.
Thank you again for joining me,Elle Billing, the chronically
ill queer femme who is verytired, on this episode of Hoorf.
Until next time, be excellent toeach other. Hoorf is hosted by
Elle Billing @elleandwink, audioediting by Ricki Cummings
(44:40):
@rickiep00h music composed byRicki Cummings. Hoorf is a
production of Elle & Wink ArtStudio LLC, all rights reserved.
Hoorf can be found on all socialmedia platforms. @hoorfpodcast
at H, O, O, R, F, podcast.
(45:02):
I was dead serious, and she'slike, No.
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:03):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf (00:17):
Radical Care in a Late Capitalist Heckscape.
(01:01):
My guest for this episode isErika Goveia. Erika is a 29 year
old poet and general arts andcrafts enjoyer. She grew up in a
fundamentalist Christiancommunity in Indiana, but has
since deconstructed and is nowliving in California with her
husband and two step kids. Shedoes office work, attends an
online poetry group semiregularly, and is always looking
for pretty crochet patterns totry. She has had a handful of
(01:23):
poems published, and sometimesposts her art on Instagram. Her
art is about her experiencesgrowing up. I'm excited to have
Erika on the podcast today.
Welcome to Hoorf. Hello, Erika.
Welcome to Hoorf.
Erika Goveia (01:39):
Hi. Nice to meet you.
Elle Billing (01:41):
Yeah, it's so great to have you here. We've
exchanged a few emails, butyeah, this is the first time
we're meeting. Yeah, so excited.
Erika Goveia (01:48):
Thank you for having me on,
Elle Billing (01:49):
of course, you know Ricki, so which is how you
came to be on Hoorf, but thisis, yeah, the first time that
you and I are sitting down totalk. And so I'm really excited
to have you here today. How youdoing?
Erika Goveia (02:02):
I am doing. Okay.
It's a bright sunny day out herein California. I really can't
complain.
Elle Billing (02:07):
Nice. It's actually a bright sunny day here
in North Dakota too. The weatherwas in the, the temp was in the
50s today, it was it's reallynice, which means it's muddy and
my dog is disgusting. I got homefrom after being gone all day,
and she was running aroundoutside and like, like, oh, I
have stuff to carry in. I can'tlet you in the house because
(02:28):
you'll get mud all over thecarpet. So I'm trying to, like,
get in the door and not let mydog in. And my dad, thankfully,
was on the porch, and he's,like, trying to maneuver and
help me out with the whole don'tlet the dog in situation,
because otherwise we end up withmud everywhere. We got it
handled. And now she's backoutside again. So as soon as I
got her, I got her paws cleanedup, and then she's like, Oh,
(02:49):
Papa's gonna do yard work. Ilove yard work. And so she's out
making a mess again.
Erika Goveia (02:54):
Oh, sweetie, yeah, the cycle's never ending when
they're in and out.
Elle Billing (02:57):
Oh, I know. And the mud is so sloppy right now.
It's her favorite thing. So,yeah, it's pretty gross. We go
through a lot of baby wipes inthe spring.
Erika Goveia (03:07):
Oh, that's so smart. Do you keep them, like
at the door and wipe her feet asshe comes in?
Elle Billing (03:11):
So we have a rug, and then her big pillow is right
there. So we go, like, door,rug, pillow, and then I make her
lay on her pillow and I wipe herpaws with baby wipes.
But if I'm notstanding there, she like, if my
Erika Goveia (03:20):
Nice.
yeah, yeah.
Elle Billing (03:23):
And then my mom's like, we have to get the carpet
mom lets her in, or my dad letsher and she goes straight for
the beige carpet, as you do,shampooer out. I'm like, Well,
let it dry. We'll vacuum it up,and we're not going to shampoo
the carpet till spring's over,because she's going to do it
again. I Yeah, really, let'sthink about this. It's gonna
(03:43):
happen again.
Erika Goveia (03:47):
Yeah? You have a system. You have it down. You
know what to do?
Elle Billing (03:50):
Yeah, my house in Idaho, I didn't have any carpet,
so then we just sweep it up. Andthen we moved here, and it was
like, Oh, we have carpet. Okay,it's a pain, but we make it
work. Like that's the long wayof saying it's a nice day. It's
also really gross. That's thedownside. So how have you
received care this week, Erika?
Erika Goveia (04:11):
well, just last night, I got home from work and
I was very tired, and myhusband, Matt, was making
dinner. He was making all ofdinner, and I went and took a
shower, and I went and sat onthe couch for a bit, and he
said, Hey, dinner is ready. Andthat was just really nice.
Elle Billing (04:27):
I love that.
That's really nice. What did hemake?
Erika Goveia (04:30):
He made steak and baked potatoes and veggies and
bread slices. He did the wholething.
Elle Billing (04:36):
That's a very like hearty Midwest dinner right
there.
Erika Goveia (04:40):
Yeah, definitely a treat for us.
Elle Billing (04:42):
Yeah, that's really nice. I love that he did
that.
Erika Goveia (04:45):
Yeah, he's very sweet. I love him.
Elle Billing (04:47):
I love when I'm cooked for or when I don't have
to, like, do all the food prepmyself. Ricki actually gets here
next week, and then I don't haveto cook for myself the whole
time. Ricki does some of thefood prep for me then, or a lot
of it actually, makes my coffee,and it's nice to have somebody
who does that.
Erika Goveia (05:06):
So I love cooking, but there's something special
about the meals he makes.
Elle Billing (05:10):
Yeah, I used to love cooking. Now it's just sort
of like, this is a way I have toexpend energy to feed myself,
although I'm, I've been managingmy energy better lately, so,
like, I can enjoy cooking alittle bit more and playing
around with different flavorsand things again, which is nice,
(05:30):
but I've also been like, reallyintensely painting in the
studio, and so I haven't beenwanting to spend my energy in
the kitchen. I just want to bespending a painting so it's,
it's nice when I can asksomebody else to do it for me.
Erika Goveia (05:46):
That's lovely.
Elle Billing (05:47):
Yeah, so I just mentioned painting in my studio.
But what does your creativepractice look like like? What do
you, what do you do? What isyour approach or process to art,
or artistic endeavors look like.
Erika Goveia (06:01):
Well, calling it a process is very generous
opinion. It's lots of like,snippets of things from here and
there, conversations withfriends or family, just like
stuff that gets stuck in myhead, or I do a lot of my
writing at work. Don't tellanyone. I make a lot of phone
calls, and while I'm on hold,I'll just jot down a few things,
(06:22):
and then I have this verydwindling notepad where you can
tear it off. And so now I haveall these loose squares of paper
in my work bag. And every oncein a while, I do a purge, and
that'll be my poetry. That'll besome of the art ideas that I've
posted online, just veryquickly, put together things
(06:44):
that sometimes work out.
Elle Billing (06:46):
I work a part time job in the evenings, and there's
usually like an hour of deadtime in between tasks, and
that's-- I do writing then. Idon't bring a sketchbook with
me, because I the lighting isn'tgreat. They're like, I
intentionally I don't use thefluorescent lights at work
because they irritate my eyes somuch. I have, like, a special
(07:08):
green light that's gentle formi-, people who get migraine,
but it's not good for sketching.
So usually what I do in thattime is when I'm at work and
listening to audio books, sosort of feeding my soul. But I,
um, I'll write or I'll answerwork, like, work-based, like,
um, business emails. I'll dopodcast prep. So I try to use
(07:29):
that work time for, like, otherenjoyable stuff, similar, like,
when you're on hold, you'rewriting or doodling or
sketching, yeah, I get it. And Iif I hear something in an
audiobook that I'm like, oh,like, I use sticky notes to
like, or my bullet journal tolike, write things down that I
(07:51):
want to remember for later. Andso I have sticky notes all over
my journal and all over insidemy journal. And yeah, I have to
do the purge of my purse whereI'm like, where did all my
sticky notes go? So, yeah, Iget, I get the bag as a process.
I totally get that. So what kindof art do you do?
Erika Goveia (08:08):
I guess, um, oh, gosh. I used to take art classes
when I was in college, and Iwould do these really big, like,
very detailed drawings, becausethat was the class work that we
were assigned, and I reallyloved it. But now since then,
I've kind of gone out of thepractice and then dipped my toes
(08:28):
back in, out again, dipping mytoes back in. So nowadays, it's
looking a lot like sketches onthose little squares of paper
and then slightly largersketches. And then I'll take a
photo of it and email it tomyself in Microsoft Paint, I
will make a very, I don't know,like, kind of like when you were
(08:49):
messing around with paint as akid on the computer, and you
would just make stuff. It's kindof like that, except I'm a
little more focused now, alittle more like trying to do a
thing, yeah,
Elle Billing (08:59):
90s kid art?
Erika Goveia (09:00):
Yeah, exactly,
Elle Billing (09:02):
well, and I know, I guess we'll get into this with
the kind of the next question,like a lot, the art of yours
that I've seen is kind of thatthrowback to, like, processing
stuff from when you grew up. SoI think using paint, Microsoft
Paint, to do the art of based onstuff from the 90s. I mean, that
(09:23):
makes sense to me, like kind ofa throwback medium to talk about
what it was like to grow up inIndiana, in an in the
Evangelical, high controlreligious community.
Erika Goveia (09:37):
Yeah. And it also gives me a little bit of an out,
because if it's moretraditional, or I'm like, oh, I
should be spending more time onthis, I should devote more to
this. It needs to be moredetailed. When it's on the
computer, I feel a little bitless pressure to stay in that
same head space where I'mdrawing about the thing that was
so upsetting. And so it gives memore of like an out for myself
(09:59):
to take breaks.
Elle Billing (10:00):
Yes, oh, that's a really good point, too. So
let's, let's talk about growingup. Yeah, we, I mean, that's
what we emailed about that. Solike you knew I was going to ask
that I didn't spring that onyou. Yeah? Can you tell us a
little bit about how you grewup? Yeah?
Erika Goveia (10:16):
So I grew up in the Midwest, in Indiana, I just
happened to be born into afamily that was in a church that
has been there for generations.
They split off from theMennonites soon after coming
over from Germany in, I believe,the 1800s but my family had been
in that church for sevengenerations, and so we were
(10:41):
there. We were in it. Mygrandfather had gotten a divorce
when my dad was little, and sothere was a little bit of like a
break from the church at thatpoint. But then my father and he
became a young man. He rejoinedand married my mom and started
their family that way.
Elle Billing (11:04):
Okay.
Erika Goveia (11:05):
And yeah, I was raised in the church, um, full
believer. I was very into it. Iloved the church. They were my
family. I didn't always feelwelcome. There was something
like me and my siblings havetalked about this at length, at
least me and my sisters, we justalways felt a little bit
separate, a little bit not quiteas accepted as other families. I
(11:29):
think maybe because of thatdivorce, because they're very
anti-divorce, they believe thatyou should work it out, that you
should stay in it, that kind ofthing. And that's just really
conjecture. I don't really know,like looking back, like with
what I know now, it might havejust been because we were
neurodivergent,
Elle Billing (11:46):
and you just feel different than the people around
you, like you aren't fitting in,Yep, yeah.
Erika Goveia (11:52):
And so I got baptized in the church, became a
member, all of that, andthroughout college, started
deconstructing a bit, and thenby the end of college, I was
like, oh, oh, no, this is notfor me. This is not it. I don't
think I have a future here. MetMatt online soon after that, my
(12:15):
husband, my partner, ended upmarrying him and moving out here
to California, where he livedwith his kids.
Elle Billing (12:21):
Okay, just for clarity, because for people who
may not be familiar withdifferent sects of Christian,
sects of Christianity, like theloudest, I think, voice...I grew
up Lutheran, and I didn't reallyencounter any like
evangelicalism until I went tocollege, and then I was like,
(12:43):
oh, okay, interesting, because Igrew up in a town that basically
had mainline denominations,Catholics and Lutherans and
Methodists. And granted, I wasweirdly sheltered, not
sheltered, but like I was, I wasnaive about the world as a kid.
So for people who are notnecessarily part of the language
(13:07):
and culture of Christianity,there's a lot of different types
of Christianity. The ones whoget the most attention tend to
be, especially right now, tendto be the more conservative
fundamentalist evangelicaltypes. Those are the ones who
are sort of making a lot ofnoise right now in politics. And
there is everything from thatto, like, more progressive
(13:29):
groups of Christians, where onthat and then there's like,
mainline churches fall somewherein between. Where on that
continuum was the church thatyou grew up in? Are they more
towards the conservative side?
Erika Goveia (13:42):
definitely, they would consider themselves
conservative evangelical.
They're a little bit closer to,like the Baptist churches in
general. They had split offfrom, like the Mennonites early
enough that they kind of becamemore, a much more progressive
version. And so you kept some ofthe some of the kind of
(14:03):
high-control, I don't, there'sprobably a better way to phrase
that, but some of thehigh-control aspects of
Mennonite-ism and the Amishfaith, where this is your
family, this is your church,these are the people that you
are growing up with kind of moreisolated, we're like outsiders.
They don't know us. They don'tentirely get us. Look at us.
(14:26):
We're like we're devout, andthey don't understand that. So
stay within our circle. You'llbe safe here. You have to marry
members. If you're a member, ifyou want to marry a non member,
they have to join or you have toleave. So I ended up having to
remove my membership from thechurch.
Elle Billing (14:47):
Okay, okay,
Erika Goveia (14:48):
and yeah, just things like that. Like there
were no like, horses and buggiesor anything.
Elle Billing (14:52):
Oh, right, right.
I wasn't, I wasn't expectingthat. I was more like, as far as
like culturally, and I guesshorses and buggies is
culturally, I meant more interms of, like theology, like
interacting with the world, likemore of the conservative versus
the more progressive ordoctrine. I guess maybe the word
I'm thinking of,
Erika Goveia (15:11):
yeah, it kind of varied from it varied a lot from
family to family too. Like someparents would say, Oh, we don't
have any television in ourhouse. And for us is, like, we
had a television we would watchsome things we had, like, kind
of like a range, depending onhow my parents felt about it.
Like, we'd watch a lot of VeggieTales, things,
Elle Billing (15:30):
okay, yeah,
Erika Goveia (15:30):
I wasn't allowed to watch Mutant Ninja Turtles,
and I'm still a little bit saltyabout that, because I love
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Elle Billing (15:37):
I also loved Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
When I was like, six years old,when my mom asked me where I
wanted to go on vacation, justin conversation, I said I wanted
to go to New York and, like,explore the sewer. And I was
like, I was dead serious. Andshe's like, No, that's not a
thing. I'm like, you think that
Erika Goveia (15:57):
It's amazing you wanted to do that!
Elle Billing (15:59):
I'm like, why not?
That's where the ninja turtleslive. They're not real.
Erika Goveia (16:05):
Hey, sanitation workers get to do it, so should
I
Elle Billing (16:08):
yeah, like, come on, it sounds so cool. No,
actually, it sounds reallygross. And I'm scared of rats.
It's a good reason not to go.
Erika Goveia (16:17):
Another thing about my family is that, well,
at the church I grew up in isthat they're very like
homeschooler friendly andQuiverfull movement Family. Are
you familiar with the Quiverfullmovement?
Elle Billing (16:28):
Yes, yes. I have some some friends who who grew
up in that movement, and theirfamily has also sort of come out
of that movement there. Theirfamily is still in the church,
but not in that part of thechurch.
Erika Goveia (16:43):
Yeah, it's very traditional. Men and women have
their roles. Children are kindof seen, not heard that kind of
deal, and they're also expectedto help with their many brothers
and sisters that kind of takecare of each other and are
parentified, and that way, Imyself have seven brothers and
sisters.
Elle Billing (17:01):
Yeah, there's quite a bit of that in Idaho,
actually, and I lived there fora number of years, and that's
actually where I kind of got tounderstand it a little bit.
Okay, so was there anything inparticular that led to you
deconstructing?
Erika Goveia (17:15):
Yeah, um, I was kind of always depressed as a
kid because of that feeling ofnot fitting in, and because we
were homeschooled, your onlyfriends were church friends or
homeschool group friends thatyou would see once a week or
once a month. And so it's justyou and your siblings and your
(17:35):
parents. For me, it was mostlymy mom, because my dad worked
stay at home. Mom raising us,homeschooling us, and I don't
think she enjoyed it very much.
Like no shade on my mom, that isa lot of work. That is so much
work. I cannot fathom the amountof work that she had to do. But
it also led to being kind ofstuck in an environment with an
(17:56):
adult who's taking care of somany other people, and they're
not having a good time, they arevery stressed, and that comes
back on you. And so then if theyare mad at you in a parental way
that bleeds over into yourschool life, because you're
still dealing with the sameperson like five minutes later,
and if you're not doing well onyour schoolwork, your mom's
(18:20):
gonna be mad at you, because sheknows immediately, just that
kind of thing where it becomes abit of a pressure cooker,
because you're isolated, she'sisolated, and it just, I don't
know, like it's a specialmixture, and I don't recommend
it, yeah,
Elle Billing (18:38):
So sort of just having that, like, depression
and isolation was sort of afoundation to want to
deconstruct, like, wanting...
Erika Goveia (18:49):
oh yeah, you're asking that question! yeah.
Elle Billing (18:51):
So like that you already had sort of that
dissatisfaction when you went tocollege, like you wanted
something more?
Erika Goveia (18:59):
yeah. And I, oh my gosh, I can hear the other voice
in my head being like, Oh, well,it sounds like you weren't
really a Christian if you weredepressed. Because I was very
much something that was toutedat the time.
Elle Billing (19:08):
That was something I encountered when I went to
college, like I started taking--I was depressed from junior high
on, and I started finally takingantidepressants my senior year
of high school, and they, forsure, saved me. And then I got
to college, and that's like, Isaid, that's when I first met my
first, like, evangelical-typeChristians, and someone told me,
(19:29):
You're sinning every time youtake your antidepressants. And I
was like,
Erika Goveia (19:32):
Excuse me.
Elle Billing (19:34):
I was like, exactly, where does it say that
in the Bible?
Erika Goveia (19:38):
So rude.
Elle Billing (19:39):
Yeah, it was super rude. And I was like, I don't
want to hang out with youanymore.
Erika Goveia (19:42):
Oh my gosh, that was another thing we didn't
believe in mental health. Yeah,people who had depression and
anxiety were either lying aboutit or they just didn't have good
enough faith. They were lettingthe devil in. And the I'm going
to be a little bit sassy and saythat that particular church,
(20:02):
it's called the ApostolicChristian church, they are, very
conveniently, about 10 to 20 to50 years behind on cultural
things, purposely according towhat suits them. So actually,
recently, within the lasthandful of years. So like, oh,
you can start wearing weddingrings because there was no
(20:23):
jewelry. And so people wouldn'twear wedding rings either,
because there was a thing whereit's like, Oh, it'll encourage
envy among people. We don't wantcomparisons that kind of thing.
So now, in the last five years,they're like, well, actually,
people are starting to thinkthat we're trying to cheat on
our spouses because we're notwearing wedding rings. So let's
go ahead and do that, you guys.
And just as it be like, it justbecame more and more clear to me
(20:47):
growing up that it was moreabout social pressures and like,
what suited the adults as tolike, what got changed over
time. And so add up adaptations,or put forward as being the most
holy practice, when really it'smore about what suits us at the
(21:09):
time, which is fine, which is tobe expected, but maybe don't
wait until after it's hurt so somany people, and maybe don't be
ascience-minded, or maybe, like,listen to scientists, that would
be lovely. Clinicalpsychologists are not the devil.
(21:31):
They are here to help. They'renot here to steal your children
and take them into a dungeon toplay D and D or something.
Elle Billing (21:40):
Yeah, so have you held on to anything from your
spiritual background? Um,
Erika Goveia (21:48):
I've actually been, that's the thing I've been
parsing through the mostrecently, I think something that
my parents really tried toinstill in us is look for the
people who don't have friends.
Look for the people who coulduse a friend, or who could use
someone to stand up for them andtry to be their friends,
(22:10):
especially if you don't havefriends. The way to remedy that
is to find someone who needs afriend. And I think that did not
work for middle school Erika,because everyone else already
had friends. If my friendsweren't available that day, I
was out of luck. That's fine.
That's fine.
Elle Billing (22:27):
The troubles of the neurodivergent middle
schooler.
Erika Goveia (22:30):
Yeah, exactly. But as an adult, I feel like having
that in the back of my head hashelped me make some of the most
unlikely friendships. Forinstance, in college, Ricki
obviously had friends, but theywere also like, oh, this person
is different. They look a bitalternative. What's their deal?
(22:53):
Maybe I can be friends withthem, and that's how we've been
in poetry class. They were justa really cool person. I loved
getting to know them, and theyactually really, like, changed
my life, because I had neverreally become friends with
someone alternative in that way,and I flubbing my terms,
(23:13):
probably a little bit here,because I'm, like, very nervous
about talking and but yeah, justlike knowing someone who is
living their life in a way thatwas very different from mine,
and they are a good person.
They're just obviously a goodperson, and they're fine. The
devil does not have a hold ontheir life. They're out here
(23:36):
living, they have not beensmitten by the Lord. They are
obviously a joy to have around.
They're obviously doing good inthe world. How can someone being
so good among a world of a bunchof people who just don't care in
general? Maybe, maybe I thinkthat's a glum way to look at the
(23:57):
world in general, but to seesomeone be so good. How am I
gonna look at them and say like,oh, yeah, you're going to hell
because you don't subscribe tothese five things, yeah? How am
I going to look at all the otherwonderful people out there and
be like, yeah, you just didn'tmake the cut. Like, Uncle George
(24:17):
or whatever, who is kind ofweird and creepy to me. He's in
the church. He's fine. He's goneto heaven, even though he said
some really rude shit to me andmy sisters over the last few
decades. He's fine. But thisperson over here is nothing but
a light of hope, nah, nah. Kickhim out. That just didn't sit
right.
Elle Billing (24:35):
No, I get that. So your artwork, how do you, how
does that help you process someof like, the religious trauma
that you still have from growingup the way you did?
Erika Goveia (24:48):
Um, gosh, I think it allows me. It's kind of an
extension. Of finally processingand allowing myself to cry about
things if I need to, to yell andscream about things if I need
(25:11):
to, because we were expected tobe so buttoned up and to be
fine. We were just expected tobe fine with very little
emotional help. Um, I think,gosh, the art process is me
(25:32):
reaching out to myself toprocess those things, and maybe
by sending it into the world tolike the select few people that
I show it to, to also reach outto them and be like, hey, human
experience. Am I right? What awild time.
Elle Billing (25:50):
Yeah, the first. I don't remember which one I saw
first, but Ricki had sent me oneof your Instagram posts of one
of your art little paint artpieces. And I say little, not
to, like, diminish it, but itwas small, tiny,
Erika Goveia (26:04):
yeah.
Elle Billing (26:06):
And, like, the simplicity of how you create
them and make them, like, Ithink helps them pack a punch
for what they're about. Becauseit was like, it's a way of
going, like, Hey, isn't thiseffed up, this thing? Like,
Erika Goveia (26:23):
thank you. That is my goal.
Elle Billing (26:24):
Yeah. It's like, isn't it? Isn't it weird how we
say this to kids? And it's like,yeah, that's so messed up. And I
wish I could remember which oneit was, and I probably should
have pulled up Instagram beforewe started, but I haven't had my
nap today, so I didn't think ofit until just now.
Erika Goveia (26:41):
It's all good,
Elle Billing (26:42):
but it is. It's one of those things like you
said, like, reaching out to,like, your younger self or other
people who grew up the same wayto go,Yeah, like this was messed
up. Like adults said this tochildren, like, some really
weird and terrible shit getssaid to kids in the name of,
like, religion, and that's wecarry that with us, and then we
(27:05):
have to, hopefully, we processit at some point. So, um, is
your poetry about the same typeof thing, or do you write poetry
about something else completely?
Erika Goveia (27:17):
It's very much the same thing. I do branch out a
little bit more in my poetry andlike, try to write about
different topics, but it veryoften comes back to writing
about my experiences growing up,difficulties I'm facing now,
especially because I do stillcarry a lot of those struggles
(27:37):
that I had as a kid forward,like no matter how much I work
on them, I still carry it aspart of me and how I move
through the world now, havingtried to leave that behind is
very much a focus within that.
Elle Billing (27:59):
Yeah. I mean, those are like formative wounds.
They can kind of, they stickwith us for a while. I think
I've said this, even if Ihaven't said it on the podcast.
I've said it when talking aboutmy art to other people, is I did
write a poem one time where thefirst line was, all my poems are
(28:20):
about dirt and my mother, evenmy poems about my dad, which are
about her, by virtue of herexclusion. And so much of my
artwork, even when I don't meanit to be about my mom, is still
about my mom. Ricki and I arereleasing The Failure Experiment
(28:42):
later this month, and it wasn't,I didn't know it was going to be
a bunch, like, have a bunch ofMother stuff in it. But what do
you know, Ricki has motherwounds too? You probably are
aware of this, and there'sseveral poems in Ricki's book
about Mother, like her mom, hermother specifically, but also
(29:05):
the idea of The Mother. And mycollection last year ended up
being very much about mothersand daughters. And so now this
year, I'm like, I'm gonna doartwork based on Ricki's book,
and then I read the book, andI'm like, damn it. There's a
whole bunch of Mother symbolism.
I guess I'm still making artworkabout my mom.
Erika Goveia (29:27):
Oh, we're sharing the Brain Stuff.
Elle Billing (29:29):
It's like, I can't get away from it. I mean, I also
live with my mom and my dad, andI take care of my mom, and it's
like, I'm not gonna get awayfrom it, like, this is my life.
But it is. It's just one ofthose things where, like, it
doesn't matter what medium ordiscipline I'm working in, like,
this is the wound, like, this isit? It formed me.
Erika Goveia (29:53):
I actually have a Book. I think I don't know if
you've mentioned it before onyour show. It's Discovering the
Inner Mother (29:59):
a Guide to Healing the Mother Wound by Bethany
Webster,
Elle Billing (30:04):
no, I that's going in the show notes, and it'll go
on my bookshop. It's right. Ihave a bookshop.org store page
under Elle & Wink. I'll put thatin there too so people can find
it, but I'll probably make sureof it, yeah, and I'll probably
add it to my own wish list, orat least like my, um, see if the
(30:27):
library has an audio book of it.
It is. It's just like the thing,I mean. And some of that comes
from how she grew up and the wayshe was raised in the church
too. Like she grew up in achurch where you didn't look to
the side, you just look straightahead. Don't smile, don't laugh,
and
Erika Goveia (30:44):
wow,
Elle Billing (30:45):
when she was divorcing her first husband, the
church she was in, like, didn'tnotice or care that she was
being abused, like, and thataffects you.
Erika Goveia (30:57):
Yeah, to not be seen, to not be seen when you
need to be seen the most. That'sso hurtful.
Elle Billing (31:05):
Yeah, so I know I know my own answer to this
question, but um, so does thecurrent political situation in
the US reactivate any of thechurch trauma and junk for you?
Erika Goveia (31:18):
Oh, yeah, feeling a little feral out here. I feel
spoiled living in California,but you can't escape it out here
either. I saw a truck the otherweek that was just plastered
with bumper stickers. One ofthem said something like, the
Save Something, Kill a Democrator Liberal. Something about al
(31:41):
Qaeda. Thanks, Biden for alQaeda. Like, just like, all
kinds of, like, weird off thewall Q anon stuff. Yeah, I saw
another one that said Q army ona different car. It's just so
odd to see out in the wild. ButI do feel extremely blessed to
be, to have had the opportunityto move away from my hometown,
(32:08):
especially before COVID hit,before things really intensified
politically, something I wantedto say earlier about the church
that I I'm all over the place.
Elle Billing (32:19):
I am not a linear thinker, you're fine.
Erika Goveia (32:22):
One of the things that upset me and helped in my
deconstruction is that some ofthe things that they adopted for
convenience, more than forgenuine spiritual purposes, was
politics. And after I left, thefurther and further I got away
(32:44):
from it, looking back, the moreI could see how politically
motivated they were. Like, forinstance, very anti abortion and
so, gosh, my parents took us toa tea party protest one time as
children. Like, I'm not going tobe able to think of any good
(33:07):
examples right now, but they'restill pro Trump, yeah, after
these years, yeah.
Elle Billing (33:14):
And I guess the way I grew up in the church,
like, I always felt like thegospel was political, but it was
like a politics of care, notpower. I mean, I didn't, I
didn't think of that like when Iwas a kid. I didn't have the
language for it, but like,looking back on the way that,
like, I can say, oh, because,like, the church my parents go
(33:35):
to, my dad has mentioned severaltimes that, like, our their
vision and mission statementsays Everyone welcome, no like,
and they added the words noexceptions, and they're the only
church in town that that saysthat, because there's three
Lutheran churches in thecommunity, and the one my
parents go to is the only onethat accepts LGBTQ people, like
(33:57):
and like will perform samegender marriages. And for a
while they had, one of theinterim pastors was was a gay
man, and my dad is, like, happythat that's our church.
Erika Goveia (34:09):
Wow.
Elle Billing (34:10):
And there was another church that was a member
of the same Synod, and when itcame down to the LGBT issue,
that church broke away from theSynod, and, like, left and our
church stayed. So, like, that'skind of how I grew up. I mean,
there were growing pains forsure. I'm not saying it's all
(34:32):
been sunshine and rainbows. Iwas a queer kid in the 90s in
North Dakota, but as far aslike, like, I also kind of
lucked out, because the way thatmost of the people around me
viewed the politics side of itwas like, a politics of like,
taking care of other people, asopposed to like, having control
(34:55):
over them.
Erika Goveia (34:56):
Yes, yes, the Yeah. Paternalism is very
strong, and if you're not partof us, you don't know what's
right for you, and you need tojoin us in order to be okay.
Elle Billing (35:10):
So you have two step children, uh,
Erika Goveia (35:15):
yes, yeah, okay.
Elle Billing (35:17):
So how? I mean, obviously you parent them
differently than you wereparented. How do you approach co
parenting your step childrendifferently than how like you
were parented? How does that?
How does that look?
Erika Goveia (35:30):
Um, you know what?
It's been a weird, roughprocess, but I feel like we are
finally stepping into what worksfor us, and that's been the
biggest thing, is just givingmyself and all of us, giving
like as a family, givingourselves permission to do what
works for us instead of what'sprescribed as the best way to
(35:54):
be. I think, if nothing else,that's been the biggest
realization of my life is thatif you're not hurting anyone,
you can just do what works foryou. You don't have to be a
certain way. You don't have tolook a certain way in order to
be valid as a human being, inorder to have a life that's
(36:16):
worth living, we don't have toeat at the dining table, if
sitting on the floor in theliving room works better for us
while we're eating, I don't haveto have the house perfectly
cleaned. My mother isn't goingto come out of nowhere and slap
my hand for not wiping down thebaseboards. I can be a bit of a
(36:38):
mess and still be worth loving,
Elle Billing (36:45):
yeah
Erika Goveia (36:45):
and still be a good representation of what a
human being can be. I don't haveto have a all together, and I
don't have to keep my problemsto myself, and I can hear the
little voice in my head goingagain like we never told you
that you had to keep it all toyourself. It's like, well, you
didn't listen very well when Ihad my problems. You were fine
(37:07):
listening to certain problems.
You were absolutely fine if Iwanted to come forward and
confess sin, or if I wantedadvice about something. But if
you're not there for me, when Isay, hey, this isn't working for
me, this is actually making mefeel really bad. I'm not
comfortable with this. I'm notcomfortable with that particular
(37:27):
person. I'm not comfortable withthis situation. The answer is,
well, you need to just getthrough it, because this is
inconvenient for us that you arenot feeling it right now. And
gosh, my sisters and I had aconversation with my mom one
day. We all met up together inSan Diego, and something broke.
(37:48):
One of my sisters was getting alittle bit criticized, and my
other sister criticized by mymom and my other sister joined
in, and something just snapped,and I was like, No, fuck you. We
don't have to do this. Do youhave any idea how much not being
(38:12):
heard and being told that weabsolutely have to be this
certain way has hurt us. Do youhave any idea how much it's hurt
us? Do you have, do you evencare? Like, the whole purity
culture thing big into that, youknow, being told that the
example we were given is, oh,your heart is like an apple, and
(38:35):
every time you have sex withsomeone, a slice gets taken out
of it, and then you're just thisapple slice is being held
together. Like, like, I don'tknow, just like, all the ways
that you're told that you'regarbage if you don't live your
life exactly the way they wantyou to, if you step out of line,
I'm sorry, you're just trash.
You're like, a band aid. We'regonna rip you off and throw you
(38:56):
out. And that was kind of myexperience when I left. Like, a
lot of people were like, Oh, welove you so much. We hope you'll
come back. We want you to visit.
We hope you'll come back to thechurch. And then, in a lot of
other ways, it was like, kind ofdon't care. You're kind of just
garbage. Now, I don't reallycare. Like, Oh my gosh, one of
(39:17):
my uncles and one of his friendswas really shitty to me on
Facebook when I was like,actually, electric cars don't do
the bad environmental thing asmuch as what you're saying. Just
like, I don't know, just random,weird stuff is such a hairpin
trigger for just absolute like,oh, okay, you're not part of us
(39:37):
anymore. That's a very long,circuitous way of not even
answering your question. I don'tthink,
Elle Billing (39:47):
no, I think you got, you got to it like, like,
you're able to recognize theways that you were harmed by
ways that you were raised, andlike, break that cycle.
Erika Goveia (39:59):
Yeah. Yes, thank you. Oh yeah. I had a point in
there, yeah. So just like, gosh,it was really hard at first,
because I had all these ideasabout what a parent was supposed
to be and what things weresupposed to look like, and
letting go of that was hardbecause I wanted to do well. I
really did. I really wanted tobe a good Christian in that
(40:19):
church, in the way that I wassupposed to and it just was
killing me. I think if I hadstayed, I might not be alive
today. I don't know
Elle Billing (40:30):
I understand that feeling, yeah, yeah.
Erika Goveia (40:32):
Like I just could not see a future there where I
was well and alive, like therewas just no room for me. And
being a stepmom really made meconfront that more than I think
just moving out here and beingmarried to someone without kids
would have, because it's like,Oh, what is the effect I'm
(40:56):
having on other people by havingthese attitudes? What am I
bringing into the world, and isit actually constructive?
Elle Billing (41:05):
Yeah, my sister and I have a lot of
conversations about breaking thecycle and and things like that,
because she also has two stepchildren, and like, she wasn't
going to be a parent, and thenshe fell in love with a guy with
two kids, and she fell in lovewith his kids, and she's like,
well, of course, I'm going tomarry him, and we're going to--
I'm marrying the whole family!and she's really good at it.
(41:28):
And, yeah, we have a lot ofthose conversations, and I
sometimes feel like I'm havingthe opportunity to reparent my
mom in a way, right? And it's,but I'm reparenting myself more,
right? in the relationship oftaking care of my mom. and so we
(41:51):
have these conversations all thetime, and it's, it's hard, but,
like, it's healing to be ableto, like, make those choices
differently than how they weremade for us.
Erika Goveia (41:55):
Yeah
Elle Billing (41:55):
that's super important. So last question,
what is one true thing that youhave learned from your creative
practice?
Erika Goveia (42:04):
Oh, let me see what I wrote down, because I
can't remember now, I think Iwent like what I said earlier.
Oh, I have a-- I did writesomething. It's that there are
good, loving people out therewho won't judge you for being a
mess, people who create andbring joy, who are able to sit
with dark emotions and come outthe other side. And I have a
quote from Mary Oliver (42:25):
"whoever you are, no matter how lonely
The world offers itself to yourimagination calls to you like
the wild geese, harsh andexciting over and over,
announcing your place in thefamily of things." from her
poem, wild geese.
Elle Billing (42:45):
That's a great poem.
Erika Goveia (42:47):
And just it doesn't matter what people's
opinions of me are, what mattersis, am I doing a good job as a
person in the world? Are notonly my intentions good, but are
the effects of my actions good?
And Am I satisfied with who I amand what I'm doing? And that's
(43:08):
it. Anything beyond that is justsalesmanship or bullshit, and I
probably have a bit morebullshit in me to weed out, but
I am so happy and so gratefulfor the life I have now, because
I got to choose it, yeah.
Elle Billing (43:28):
Well, thank you for being here. I really
appreciate our conversationtoday. Thank you. This was good.
Erika Goveia (43:34):
This was really good. Thank you so much. Yeah,
Elle Billing (43:36):
thank you for joining us on this episode of
Hoorf. to get the complete shownotes and all the links
mentioned on today's episode, orto get a full transcript of the
episode, visit Hoorf podcast dotcom
Join the Blessed Herd of SaintWinkus! By signing up for our
newsletter, you can get Hoorfepisodes delivered directly to
(43:58):
your inbox. What's more, you getinvitations to our monthly
Coffee and Biscuits Chat, whereyou get to hang out with Ricki
and Elle, talk about the showand connect on the topics that
mean the most to you. You cansign up for that at hoorfpodcast
dot com; If you become a patronfor only $3 a month, you can
support the creation of thispodcast, help pay my editor, and
(44:19):
join a community of caregiversout here, just doing our best.
Thank you again for joining me,Elle Billing, the chronically
ill queer femme who is verytired, on this episode of Hoorf.
Until next time, be excellent toeach other. Hoorf is hosted by
Elle Billing @elleandwink, audioediting by Ricki Cummings
(44:40):
@rickiep00h music composed byRicki Cummings. Hoorf is a
production of Elle & Wink ArtStudio LLC, all rights reserved.
Hoorf can be found on all socialmedia platforms. @hoorfpodcast
at H, O, O, R, F, podcast.
(45:02):
I was dead serious, and she'slike, No.
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